“SpaceX Crew Dragon docks with International Space Station”

Post by Lynn McGuire
“SpaceX Crew Dragon docks with International Space Station”
https://www.chron.com/local/article/SpaceX-Crew-Dragon-docks-with-International-Space-15306438.php
Sweet ! Nice liftoff and nice docking. Now somebody gets to land the
thing, hopefully with rockets blazing rather than three parachutes like
the Soviet modules.

Nope, four parachutes for a water landing in the Atlantic.

--
<to be filled in at a later date>

Kevrob

2020-06-01 01:55:14 UTC

CrewDragons are not lifting bodies like the Shuttles were,
and splashdown. SpaceX uses 4 chutes, not counting drogues.

The first stages land like proper Golden Age SF ships, though.

The next product is supposed to land vertically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Starship

It is still in the "test til it goes *boom*" stage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Starship

Kevin R

J. Clarke

2020-06-01 02:14:42 UTC

CrewDragons are not lifting bodies like the Shuttles were,
and splashdown. SpaceX uses 4 chutes, not counting drogues.
http://youtu.be/4cy68OoNHF0

This is substantially a NASA requirement though, not a technological
limitation. They were designed for propulsive landing and some future
generation might well go back to that. Note that the capability for
lunar and Mars landing were also in the design from an early stage.

An obstacle, that was discovered late in the program, is a previously
unsuspected catalytic effect between titanium and the propellants used
that would have made the propulsive landing system, as designed,
non-viable--this was discovered long after NASA had decreed that
propulsive landing would not be permitted.

Whether SpaceX will eventually revisit this in Dragon or whether
they've decided that battling NASA over it is a waste of time I have
no idea.

Post by Kevrob
The first stages land like proper Golden Age SF ships, though.
http://youtu.be/v0RuI1OxwL8
The next product is supposed to land vertically.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Starship
It is still in the "test til it goes *boom*" stage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Starship
Kevin R

Kevrob

2020-06-01 05:31:04 UTC

CrewDragons are not lifting bodies like the Shuttles were,
and splashdown. SpaceX uses 4 chutes, not counting drogues.
http://youtu.be/4cy68OoNHF0

This is substantially a NASA requirement though, not a technological
limitation. They were designed for propulsive landing and some future
generation might well go back to that. Note that the capability for
lunar and Mars landing were also in the design from an early stage.
An obstacle, that was discovered late in the program, is a previously
unsuspected catalytic effect between titanium and the propellants used
that would have made the propulsive landing system, as designed,
non-viable--this was discovered long after NASA had decreed that
propulsive landing would not be permitted.
Whether SpaceX will eventually revisit this in Dragon or whether
they've decided that battling NASA over it is a waste of time I have
no idea.

A little searching took me to articles that suggest that the extendable
feet could go back on the capsule, but there are substantial costs for
getting that version safety-rated for crewed flight, and while it is
cheaper to retrofit a Dragon that has landed on solid ground or on one
of their drone ships, how many missions would it take to earn that back?
Unless a client wanted the feature and was willing to pay for it, better
to skip it, at leasr for now.

The same engines power the abort/landing function, so they can
remain.

Thanks for the info.

Kevin R

Alan Baker

2020-06-01 17:39:20 UTC

CrewDragons are not lifting bodies like the Shuttles were,
and splashdown. SpaceX uses 4 chutes, not counting drogues.
http://youtu.be/4cy68OoNHF0

This is substantially a NASA requirement though, not a technological
limitation. They were designed for propulsive landing and some future
generation might well go back to that. Note that the capability for
lunar and Mars landing were also in the design from an early stage.
An obstacle, that was discovered late in the program, is a previously
unsuspected catalytic effect between titanium and the propellants used
that would have made the propulsive landing system, as designed,
non-viable--this was discovered long after NASA had decreed that
propulsive landing would not be permitted.
Whether SpaceX will eventually revisit this in Dragon or whether
they've decided that battling NASA over it is a waste of time I have
no idea.

A little searching took me to articles that suggest that the extendable
feet could go back on the capsule, but there are substantial costs for
getting that version safety-rated for crewed flight, and while it is
cheaper to retrofit a Dragon that has landed on solid ground or on one
of their drone ships, how many missions would it take to earn that back?
Unless a client wanted the feature and was willing to pay for it, better
to skip it, at leasr for now.
The same engines power the abort/landing function, so they can
remain.
Thanks for the info.

It's about delta-v.

To get to space, you have to add delta-v with thrust.

To get back from space, you can use thrust, but you can also use
friction. The advantage of using friction is that you don't have to
carry the mass of propellant you'd use into space which would then
require you to use more propellant to get your now-heavier spacecraft
into space in the first place.

Paul S Person

2020-06-01 16:59:07 UTC

SpaceX Crew Dragon docks with International Space Station
https://www.chron.com/local/article/SpaceX-Crew-Dragon-docks-with-International-Space-15306438.php
Sweet ! Nice liftoff and nice docking. Now somebody gets to land the
thing, hopefully with rockets blazing rather than three parachutes like
the Soviet modules.

CrewDragons are not lifting bodies like the Shuttles were,
and splashdown. SpaceX uses 4 chutes, not counting drogues.
http://youtu.be/4cy68OoNHF0
The first stages land like proper Golden Age SF ships, though.
http://youtu.be/v0RuI1OxwL8

Like a dream come true for fans of 1950s SF.

As I am sure everyone here is well aware.

Post by Kevrob
The next product is supposed to land vertically.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Starship
It is still in the "test til it goes *boom*" stage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Starship
Kevin R

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Lynn McGuire

2020-06-01 18:45:54 UTC

Like a dream come true for fans of 1950s SF.
As I am sure everyone here is well aware.

...

My point exactly. Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

Lynn

Thomas Koenig

2020-06-01 19:25:10 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

It is also an _extremely_ arrogant maneuver that they managed to
pull off, time and time again.

What was that quote from the "Mote in God's Eye"? Something like
"Any pilot who tried to pull a stunt like this would have his head
handed to him on a plate" or something like that?

Elon Musk probably has a few Motie Engineers working for him
somewhere in a basement.

Dimensional Traveler

2020-06-01 19:46:09 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

It is also an _extremely_ arrogant maneuver that they managed to
pull off, time and time again.
What was that quote from the "Mote in God's Eye"? Something like
"Any pilot who tried to pull a stunt like this would have his head
handed to him on a plate" or something like that?
Elon Musk probably has a few Motie Engineers working for him
somewhere in a basement.

I think I can live with that.

--
<to be filled in at a later date>

Thomas Koenig

2020-06-01 21:14:46 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

It is also an _extremely_ arrogant maneuver that they managed to
pull off, time and time again.
What was that quote from the "Mote in God's Eye"? Something like
"Any pilot who tried to pull a stunt like this would have his head
handed to him on a plate" or something like that?
Elon Musk probably has a few Motie Engineers working for him
somewhere in a basement.

I think I can live with that.

As long as there are no Watchmakers... I wouldn't put it past Elon
to have a few of them as well. And that could get nasty.

Lynn McGuire

2020-06-04 18:39:08 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

It is also an _extremely_ arrogant maneuver that they managed to
pull off, time and time again.
What was that quote from the "Mote in God's Eye"? Something like
"Any pilot who tried to pull a stunt like this would have his head
handed to him on a plate" or something like that?
Elon Musk probably has a few Motie Engineers working for him
somewhere in a basement.

So how would you have the first stage rocket land for reuse ?

The rocket used for the 60 Starlink satellites Wednesday was on its 6th
deployment.

Landing on the tail is all about reuse. Don't you care about recycling
our tools and materials ?

Lynn

Torbjorn Lindgren

2020-06-07 01:19:01 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

It is also an _extremely_ arrogant maneuver that they managed to
pull off, time and time again.

So how would you have the first stage rocket land for reuse ?

Landing on the tail with a rocket engine isn't the arrogant part, it's
even been done before. Landing using a *Suicide Burn* (though SpaceX
tries to promote "hover slam" instead...) because your engine is far
to powerful to allow a normal landing WAS/IS considered arrogant.

IE, the hard part about the landing a Falcon 9 first stage is that
even with just a single rocket running at the lowest possible setting
they have a T/W of way above 1. Depending on assumptions the lowest
possible T/W is somewhere in the 1.8 to 2.05 range for an nearly empty
Falcon 9 first stage (SpaceX doesn't publish the data needed to
compute it exactly).

Given that they can't shut it down and then restart the engine either
at this point this means they get exactly one attempt and has to nail
it (nearly) perfectly, if they missed low they've crashed, if they
missed high they have to cut power anyway and fall the rest of the way
because not doing so will make things worse (due to T/W>1).

It may SOUND simple (not!) but AFAIK it resulted in several new
peer-review mathematical papers plus a lot of experimenting to get it
right.

Post by Lynn McGuire
The rocket used for the 60 Starlink satellites Wednesday was on its 6th
deployment.

The Starlink-8 mission was B1049's 5th launch (second one) and landing
(first), not 6th.

B1048 was the first booster to do a 5th launch, it didn't land due to
an earlier engine failure late in the ascent, it had to burn the other
engines for longer to compensate and thus ended up with too little
fuel left. The root cause was found to be an issue with the
cleaning/refurbishing procedures that has been corrected.

That extra resilience is one of the beauties with SpaceX approach of
using using 9 engines and using "extra" capacity when available to
enable reuse, during most of the first stage ascent the rocket can
automatically compensate for one failing engines (and late enough even
if two fails) by using that reserve which is so much better loosing
the payload (which often cost many times the rocket launch).

Other than to NASA or the US Military SpaceX are basically not
offering non-reusable Falcon 9 launches any longer, if you want that
much performance they'll sell you a reusable Falcon Heavy launch for
less than the non-reusable Falcon 9 used to cost - this is for the
cheapeast FH variant, with both side core landing on land and the
center core on a drone-ship (there are other more powerful variants).

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail is all about reuse. Don't you care about recycling
our tools and materials ?

There are other ways to reuse, IE things like SSTO, the current Skylon
schema (and the very different earlier ones!), "parachutes", "grabbed
by helicopter" (being tested on Elektron), "eject engine/avionics and
grab by helicopter" (being studied for Vulcan) or "separate
engine/avionics and put propellers on it" (being studied for possible
future version of Ariane 6).

The method SpaceX uses work FOR THEM because their design is is built
explicitly for it, having a fairly early stage separation and
oversized/owerpowered second stage - this helps them with reuse of the
first stage but hurt them a bit for GTO or any launch further out
(but not having a LH2 engine is a bigger handicap for high C3 launches
anyway but... FH's cheap brute force still makes it often doesn't matter).

Starship+SuperHeavy follows a similar template, it too stages
comparatively early and has a powerful second stage but since they use
methalox instead it doesn't hurt them quite as much for high-C3
mission - and methalox allows ISRU for Mars which is massive plus for
Musks stated long term goals.

Pretty much ALL other large rockets go way faster at stage separation
(need way heavier heat shield) and have comparatively puny second
stage engines which makes it much harder to use the approach SpaceX
uses, basically they'd need to throw away everything they have and
start from scratch to use it and they have way too much invested to do
that.

As such it should come as no surprise the only other real actors that
is going for a similarish approach is Blue Origin's New Glenn, no old
hardware to bog them down. I'm explicitly ignoring various "lets copy
Falcon 9 and launch it in 2025 or more likely 2028+" proposals
floating around.

For smaller rockets (like Elektron) I think parachutes or more likely
grabbed by helicopter is the mostly likely ways forward IF the payload
penalty is doable for smaller rockets.

https://old.reddit.com/r/SpaceX/wiki/cores

Thomas Koenig

2020-06-07 08:14:45 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

It is also an _extremely_ arrogant maneuver that they managed to
pull off, time and time again.

So how would you have the first stage rocket land for reuse ?

Yep, that was my point.

They have to have a _really_ good model of the shutdown behavior
of their engines to pull this off. It's not like the unsteady
behavior of centrifugal turbopumps is simple. Pumps have some
residual rotational energy, valves do not close immedately, the
counterpressure from the combustion chamber is changing, the
thrust is changing.

So, they have to change their shutdown just so that the stage comes
in at the right height, at the right velocity, at the right stage
of engine shutdown so that, after it touches down, it does not
lift up again.

Lynn McGuire

2020-06-08 18:30:48 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

It is also an _extremely_ arrogant maneuver that they managed to
pull off, time and time again.

So how would you have the first stage rocket land for reuse ?

Yep, that was my point.
They have to have a _really_ good model of the shutdown behavior
of their engines to pull this off. It's not like the unsteady
behavior of centrifugal turbopumps is simple. Pumps have some
residual rotational energy, valves do not close immedately, the
counterpressure from the combustion chamber is changing, the
thrust is changing.
So, they have to change their shutdown just so that the stage comes
in at the right height, at the right velocity, at the right stage
of engine shutdown so that, after it touches down, it does not
lift up again.

So, you don't think that they are working on that ?

VTOL is the way to go for space capable rockets. Aren't most of the new
rocket builders going that way ?

Lynn

Thomas Koenig

2020-06-08 21:05:08 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

It is also an _extremely_ arrogant maneuver that they managed to
pull off, time and time again.

So how would you have the first stage rocket land for reuse ?

Yep, that was my point.
They have to have a _really_ good model of the shutdown behavior
of their engines to pull this off. It's not like the unsteady
behavior of centrifugal turbopumps is simple. Pumps have some
residual rotational energy, valves do not close immedately, the
counterpressure from the combustion chamber is changing, the
thrust is changing.
So, they have to change their shutdown just so that the stage comes
in at the right height, at the right velocity, at the right stage
of engine shutdown so that, after it touches down, it does not
lift up again.

So, you don't think that they are working on that ?

Well, they (SpaceX) seem to have been working on this, successfully,
and quite possibly they are still working on improving this further,
so obviously I think that they are working on this.

Post by Lynn McGuire
VTOL is the way to go for space capable rockets. Aren't most of the new
rocket builders going that way ?

I'm not aware of anybody but SpaceX seriously going down that
road, but I may have missed something.

Dimensional Traveler

2020-06-08 21:21:33 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

It is also an _extremely_ arrogant maneuver that they managed to
pull off, time and time again.

So how would you have the first stage rocket land for reuse ?

Yep, that was my point.
They have to have a _really_ good model of the shutdown behavior
of their engines to pull this off. It's not like the unsteady
behavior of centrifugal turbopumps is simple. Pumps have some
residual rotational energy, valves do not close immedately, the
counterpressure from the combustion chamber is changing, the
thrust is changing.
So, they have to change their shutdown just so that the stage comes
in at the right height, at the right velocity, at the right stage
of engine shutdown so that, after it touches down, it does not
lift up again.

So, you don't think that they are working on that ?

Well, they (SpaceX) seem to have been working on this, successfully,
and quite possibly they are still working on improving this further,
so obviously I think that they are working on this.

Post by Lynn McGuire
VTOL is the way to go for space capable rockets. Aren't most of the new
rocket builders going that way ?

I'm not aware of anybody but SpaceX seriously going down that
road, but I may have missed something.

I'm wondering if tail landings are easier to design rocket vehicles for
from an engineering standpoint IF you can perform the necessary
calculations on the fly. IIRC a lot of the complexity, and therefore
cost, of the Shuttle was making it a gliding body.

--
<to be filled in at a later date>

J. Clarke

2020-06-08 21:27:17 UTC

On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 14:21:33 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

It is also an _extremely_ arrogant maneuver that they managed to
pull off, time and time again.

So how would you have the first stage rocket land for reuse ?

Yep, that was my point.
They have to have a _really_ good model of the shutdown behavior
of their engines to pull this off. It's not like the unsteady
behavior of centrifugal turbopumps is simple. Pumps have some
residual rotational energy, valves do not close immedately, the
counterpressure from the combustion chamber is changing, the
thrust is changing.
So, they have to change their shutdown just so that the stage comes
in at the right height, at the right velocity, at the right stage
of engine shutdown so that, after it touches down, it does not
lift up again.

So, you don't think that they are working on that ?

Well, they (SpaceX) seem to have been working on this, successfully,
and quite possibly they are still working on improving this further,
so obviously I think that they are working on this.

Post by Lynn McGuire
VTOL is the way to go for space capable rockets. Aren't most of the new
rocket builders going that way ?

I'm not aware of anybody but SpaceX seriously going down that
road, but I may have missed something.

A lot of the complexity, and therefore the cost, was the untested
thermal protection system that turned out to be both unbelievably
fragile and a maintenance nightmare.

That, and orbiting 60,000 pounds of lander when the actual payload
wasn't going to land.

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-08 21:33:38 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 14:21:33 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

It is also an _extremely_ arrogant maneuver that they
managed to pull off, time and time again.

So how would you have the first stage rocket land for
reuse ?

Yep, that was my point.
They have to have a _really_ good model of the shutdown
behavior of their engines to pull this off. It's not like
the unsteady behavior of centrifugal turbopumps is simple.
Pumps have some residual rotational energy, valves do not
close immedately, the counterpressure from the combustion
chamber is changing, the thrust is changing.
So, they have to change their shutdown just so that the
stage comes in at the right height, at the right velocity,
at the right stage of engine shutdown so that, after it
touches down, it does not lift up again.

So, you don't think that they are working on that ?

Well, they (SpaceX) seem to have been working on this,
successfully, and quite possibly they are still working on
improving this further, so obviously I think that they are
working on this.

Post by Lynn McGuire
VTOL is the way to go for space capable rockets. Aren't most
of the new rocket builders going that way ?

I'm not aware of anybody but SpaceX seriously going down that
road, but I may have missed something.

I'm wondering if tail landings are easier to design rocket
vehicles for from an engineering standpoint IF you can perform
the necessary calculations on the fly. IIRC a lot of the
complexity, and therefore cost, of the Shuttle was making it a
gliding body.

A lot of the complexity, and therefore the cost, was the
untested thermal protection system that turned out to be both
unbelievably fragile and a maintenance nightmare.
That, and orbiting 60,000 pounds of lander when the actual
payload wasn't going to land.

And changing the design criteria almost constantly for years as
Congress changing the funding.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Chrysi Cat

2020-06-09 01:09:37 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

It is also an _extremely_ arrogant maneuver that they managed to
pull off, time and time again.

So how would you have the first stage rocket land for reuse ?

Yep, that was my point.
They have to have a _really_ good model of the shutdown behavior
of their engines to pull this off. It's not like the unsteady
behavior of centrifugal turbopumps is simple. Pumps have some
residual rotational energy, valves do not close immedately, the
counterpressure from the combustion chamber is changing, the
thrust is changing.
So, they have to change their shutdown just so that the stage comes
in at the right height, at the right velocity, at the right stage
of engine shutdown so that, after it touches down, it does not
lift up again.

So, you don't think that they are working on that ?

Well, they (SpaceX) seem to have been working on this, successfully,
and quite possibly they are still working on improving this further,
so obviously I think that they are working on this.

Post by Lynn McGuire
VTOL is the way to go for space capable rockets. Aren't most of the new
rocket builders going that way ?

I'm not aware of anybody but SpaceX seriously going down that
road, but I may have missed something.

Bear in mind, the guy you're talking to doesn't want gliding-body
boosters either. He wants you playing "Superman and Lois Lane" with a
helicopter and a completely-de-fuelled metal tube.

Admittedly this works for _smaller_ items falling from near-LEO--my
father's personal office as an upper exec for a small defense contractor
had a picture of a KeyHole film pack being recovered in that fashion,
because before he'd been granted a transfer to the USAF reserve, he'd
been a major portion of the engineering for the second wave of that
program's satellites.

I'm not sure it works for tubes of at least half a football field in
length, weighing in at several tens of tons even with all fuel consumed,
though, and agree that the jarts landings make more sense.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Lynn McGuire

2020-06-09 20:50:26 UTC

Post by Chrysi Cat

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

It is also an _extremely_ arrogant maneuver that they managed to
pull off, time and time again.

So how would you have the first stage rocket land for reuse ?

Yep, that was my point.
They have to have a _really_ good model of the shutdown behavior
of their engines to pull this off. It's not like the unsteady
behavior of centrifugal turbopumps is simple. Pumps have some
residual rotational energy, valves do not close immedately, the
counterpressure from the combustion chamber is changing, the
thrust is changing.
So, they have to change their shutdown just so that the stage comes
in at the right height, at the right velocity, at the right stage
of engine shutdown so that, after it touches down, it does not
lift up again.

So, you don't think that they are working on that ?

Well, they (SpaceX) seem to have been working on this, successfully,
and quite possibly they are still working on improving this further,
so obviously I think that they are working on this.

Post by Lynn McGuire
VTOL is the way to go for space capable rockets. Aren't most of the new
rocket builders going that way ?

I'm not aware of anybody but SpaceX seriously going down that
road, but I may have missed something.

I'm wondering if tail landings are easier to design rocket vehicles
for from an engineering standpoint IF you can perform the necessary
calculations on the fly. IIRC a lot of the complexity, and therefore
cost, of the Shuttle was making it a gliding body.

Bear in mind, the guy you're talking to doesn't want gliding-body
boosters either. He wants you playing "Superman and Lois Lane" with a
helicopter and a completely-de-fuelled metal tube.
Admittedly this works for _smaller_ items falling from near-LEO--my
father's personal office as an upper exec for a small defense contractor
had a picture of a KeyHole film pack being recovered in that fashion,
because before he'd been granted a transfer to the USAF reserve, he'd
been a major portion of the engineering for the second wave of that
program's satellites.
I'm not sure it works for tubes of at least half a football field in
length, weighing in at several tens of tons even with all fuel consumed,
though, and agree that the jarts landings make more sense.

Jarts ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawn_darts ???

Lynn

Chrysi Cat

2020-06-10 03:45:53 UTC

<snip>

Post by Chrysi Cat
Bear in mind, the guy you're talking to doesn't want gliding-body
boosters either. He wants you playing "Superman and Lois Lane" with a
helicopter and a completely-de-fuelled metal tube.
Admittedly this works for _smaller_ items falling from near-LEO--my
father's personal office as an upper exec for a small defense
contractor had a picture of a KeyHole film pack being recovered in
that fashion, because before he'd been granted a transfer to the USAF
reserve, he'd been a major portion of the engineering for the second
wave of that program's satellites.
I'm not sure it works for tubes of at least half a football field in
length, weighing in at several tens of tons even with all fuel
consumed, though, and agree that the jarts landings make more sense.

Jarts ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawn_darts ???
Lynn

Of course! To my mind at least, a tail landing calls to mind a lawn dart
sticking the landing properly, even if truly emulating lawn darts would
mean landing head-first instead!

(we still _have_ one of the last pointed-tip sets because if my parents
knew about the recall, they refused to surrender our 1972 set).

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Peter Trei

2020-06-10 04:48:18 UTC

Post by Chrysi Cat
<snip>

Jarts ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawn_darts ???
Lynn

Of course! To my mind at least, a tail landing calls to mind a lawn dart
sticking the landing properly, even if truly emulating lawn darts would
mean landing head-first instead!
(we still _have_ one of the last pointed-tip sets because if my parents
knew about the recall, they refused to surrender our 1972 set).

I remember playing with those back in the day. They were fun, albeit dangerous if you were stupid.

We weren't stupid.

Pt

Lynn McGuire

2020-06-10 05:20:15 UTC

Post by Chrysi Cat
<snip>

Jarts ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawn_darts ???
Lynn

Of course! To my mind at least, a tail landing calls to mind a lawn dart
sticking the landing properly, even if truly emulating lawn darts would
mean landing head-first instead!
(we still _have_ one of the last pointed-tip sets because if my parents
knew about the recall, they refused to surrender our 1972 set).

I remember playing with those back in the day. They were fun, albeit dangerous if you were stupid.
We weren't stupid.
Pt

They were fun !

Lynn

Magewolf

2020-06-10 17:17:31 UTC

Post by Chrysi Cat
<snip>

Jarts ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawn_darts ???
Lynn

Of course! To my mind at least, a tail landing calls to mind a lawn dart
sticking the landing properly, even if truly emulating lawn darts would
mean landing head-first instead!
(we still _have_ one of the last pointed-tip sets because if my parents
knew about the recall, they refused to surrender our 1972 set).

I remember playing with those back in the day. They were fun, albeit dangerous if you were stupid.
We weren't stupid.
Pt

Or just really clumsy.

Paul S Person

2020-06-11 17:07:06 UTC

Post by Magewolf

Post by Chrysi Cat
<snip>

Jarts ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawn_darts ???
Lynn

Of course! To my mind at least, a tail landing calls to mind a lawn dart
sticking the landing properly, even if truly emulating lawn darts would
mean landing head-first instead!
(we still _have_ one of the last pointed-tip sets because if my parents
knew about the recall, they refused to surrender our 1972 set).

I remember playing with those back in the day. They were fun, albeit dangerous if you were stupid.
We weren't stupid.
Pt

Or just really clumsy.

Or, as Tex (?) says in /Charade/:
My momma didn't raise no stupid children

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

J. Clarke

2020-06-08 21:25:25 UTC

On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:30:48 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

It is also an _extremely_ arrogant maneuver that they managed to
pull off, time and time again.

So how would you have the first stage rocket land for reuse ?

Yep, that was my point.
They have to have a _really_ good model of the shutdown behavior
of their engines to pull this off. It's not like the unsteady
behavior of centrifugal turbopumps is simple. Pumps have some
residual rotational energy, valves do not close immedately, the
counterpressure from the combustion chamber is changing, the
thrust is changing.
So, they have to change their shutdown just so that the stage comes
in at the right height, at the right velocity, at the right stage
of engine shutdown so that, after it touches down, it does not
lift up again.

So, you don't think that they are working on that ?
VTOL is the way to go for space capable rockets. Aren't most of the new
rocket builders going that way ?

No, most are still going for VTOCL--vertical takeoff crash landing.

Blue Origin is the only other outfit that is seriously trying to
recover a booster and they have yet to achieve orbit.

Lynn McGuire

2020-06-08 22:36:16 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Landing on the tail with fire coming out is oh so cool !

It is also an _extremely_ arrogant maneuver that they managed to
pull off, time and time again.

So how would you have the first stage rocket land for reuse ?

Yep, that was my point.
They have to have a _really_ good model of the shutdown behavior
of their engines to pull this off. It's not like the unsteady
behavior of centrifugal turbopumps is simple. Pumps have some
residual rotational energy, valves do not close immedately, the
counterpressure from the combustion chamber is changing, the
thrust is changing.
So, they have to change their shutdown just so that the stage comes
in at the right height, at the right velocity, at the right stage
of engine shutdown so that, after it touches down, it does not
lift up again.

BTW, "The Expanse" book and tv series uses an awesome square VTOL lander
to orbit. In the second season, the lander was waved off from the
Martian Embassy on Earth about 200 feet off the ground. Too bad I
cannot find it on youtube. Totally CGI, I know.

Lynn

BCFD36

2020-06-02 22:25:05 UTC

Post by Kevrob
http://youtu.be/4cy68OoNHF0
The first stages land like proper Golden Age SF ships, though.
http://youtu.be/v0RuI1OxwL8

Like a dream come true for fans of 1950s SF.
As I am sure everyone here is well aware.

I may have told this story here before. If so, you can skip this.

I was working at NASA on the Rodent Research project. We were flying
mice to the ISS for drug experiments among other things. We had a
payload, 20 white mice onboard the Dragon. It was our first payload on
SpaceX. The previous missions had been on Russian launches.

There were 50 or 60 of us crammed into a conference room at Ames
Research Center in Mtn. View, CA. Some of these people, literally, had
been around since Apollo. Yes, they were old. My system engineer had sat
console for the Shuttle. There was champagne and cake in anticipation of
a successful launch. There were 20-30 large screen HDTVs on the walls.

You could hear a pin drop at launch. It went up and things were good.
Some applause and some high fives. More subdued than I anticipated, but
these were also "old hands". Been there, done that. But the room was
still tense. Some champagne was opened, cake was served. But people's
eyes were still glued to the screens, watching the first stage come down.

By the time the rocket was ignited again, no one was breathing. It was
dead quiet. I remember thinking, "Its coming in too fast! Gonna crash!"
Then it landed and stood up on the raft. Absolute bedlam ensued.
Yelling, screaming, jumping up and down (by an 80 year old Senior
Scientist PHd no less). It was truly something to behold. The rest of
the champagne was opened. I was waiting for someone to have a stroke,
but that was the EMT in me.

My stress didn't come till the Dragon docked and the mice had to be
transferred to the "habitats" that my group built and I was in charge
of. But that may be a story for another day. Or not.

--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions (Probably Retired)

J. Clarke

2020-06-02 23:08:30 UTC

Post by Kevrob
http://youtu.be/4cy68OoNHF0
The first stages land like proper Golden Age SF ships, though.
http://youtu.be/v0RuI1OxwL8

Like a dream come true for fans of 1950s SF.
As I am sure everyone here is well aware.

I may have told this story here before. If so, you can skip this.
I was working at NASA on the Rodent Research project. We were flying
mice to the ISS for drug experiments among other things. We had a
payload, 20 white mice onboard the Dragon. It was our first payload on
SpaceX. The previous missions had been on Russian launches.
There were 50 or 60 of us crammed into a conference room at Ames
Research Center in Mtn. View, CA. Some of these people, literally, had
been around since Apollo. Yes, they were old. My system engineer had sat
console for the Shuttle. There was champagne and cake in anticipation of
a successful launch. There were 20-30 large screen HDTVs on the walls.
You could hear a pin drop at launch. It went up and things were good.
Some applause and some high fives. More subdued than I anticipated, but
these were also "old hands". Been there, done that. But the room was
still tense. Some champagne was opened, cake was served. But people's
eyes were still glued to the screens, watching the first stage come down.
By the time the rocket was ignited again, no one was breathing. It was
dead quiet. I remember thinking, "Its coming in too fast! Gonna crash!"
Then it landed and stood up on the raft. Absolute bedlam ensued.
Yelling, screaming, jumping up and down (by an 80 year old Senior
Scientist PHd no less). It was truly something to behold. The rest of
the champagne was opened. I was waiting for someone to have a stroke,
but that was the EMT in me.

That's the game changer that only steely-eyed missile men seem to get.

Post by BCFD36
My stress didn't come till the Dragon docked and the mice had to be
transferred to the "habitats" that my group built and I was in charge
of. But that may be a story for another day. Or not.

Oh, go ahead and share. Or vent, as the case may be.

BCFD36

2020-06-11 20:34:23 UTC

Post by Kevrob
http://youtu.be/4cy68OoNHF0
The first stages land like proper Golden Age SF ships, though.
http://youtu.be/v0RuI1OxwL8

Like a dream come true for fans of 1950s SF.
As I am sure everyone here is well aware.

I may have told this story here before. If so, you can skip this.
I was working at NASA on the Rodent Research project. We were flying
mice to the ISS for drug experiments among other things. We had a
payload, 20 white mice onboard the Dragon. It was our first payload on
SpaceX. The previous missions had been on Russian launches.
There were 50 or 60 of us crammed into a conference room at Ames
Research Center in Mtn. View, CA. Some of these people, literally, had
been around since Apollo. Yes, they were old. My system engineer had sat
console for the Shuttle. There was champagne and cake in anticipation of
a successful launch. There were 20-30 large screen HDTVs on the walls.
You could hear a pin drop at launch. It went up and things were good.
Some applause and some high fives. More subdued than I anticipated, but
these were also "old hands". Been there, done that. But the room was
still tense. Some champagne was opened, cake was served. But people's
eyes were still glued to the screens, watching the first stage come down.
By the time the rocket was ignited again, no one was breathing. It was
dead quiet. I remember thinking, "Its coming in too fast! Gonna crash!"
Then it landed and stood up on the raft. Absolute bedlam ensued.
Yelling, screaming, jumping up and down (by an 80 year old Senior
Scientist PHd no less). It was truly something to behold. The rest of
the champagne was opened. I was waiting for someone to have a stroke,
but that was the EMT in me.

That's the game changer that only steely-eyed missile men seem to get.

Oh, go ahead and share. Or vent, as the case may be.

I'm a bit late in sharing, but here goes.

When the Dragon docked, they had to unload it. There was lots of stuff
they were sending up as well as the mice. Two of which were the
aforementioned mouse houses with my crew's programming to operate the
lights, sensors, cameras (visible and IR), telemetry, etc. There had
been upgrades and despite extensive testing, I was nervous. If something
is wrong, the shit is going to fall on my head.

The Russians were assigned to install the habitats. The first thing they
do is try to install the first one in the wrong position in the rack.
The systems people saw this immediately (everything was on camera) and
called up through translators to let them know it went up one and over
one. Then they couldn't find the power/comms cable. And the Russian was
having trouble getting it to go in. You could see him getting more and
more frustrated by the minute.

The Russian disappears. We see him in another camera zooming down the
hallway like superman. Eventually we find out that he went to go root
around in the Dragon. He finds the cable in the Dragon somewhere it
wasn't supposed to be. He come back and tries to hook it up. No joy. Now
he is rally not a happy camper. He disappears again. The American
mission commander comes back and completes the installation. Later he
did one of the most neato wizz-bang wow things I have ever seen. He had
to go get something or take a leak or something and went shooting down
the hall like superman. He is coming to the end of the hall at the same
speed and is going to crash into the wall moving pretty quickly. His
hand shoots out, latches onto a grab bar, and he zooms around the corner
and disappears. You hear a big "Wow" in our Ops area.

Eventually the habitats get installed. Then they have to offload the
mice into the habitats. This consists of grabbing a mouse from the
transport unit, examining it, describing it for the veterinarian who
happened to be sitting next to me, and holding it up in front of the HD
camera, then putting it into the mouse house. They had to do this 20 times.

Meanwhile, we are looking at the telemetry to make sure everything from
the two habitats they were using was working correctly, my part of the
stress. In the middle of this, a mouse bit the commander. He had a
couple of choice words and had instinctively kind of flicked it away and
it went slowly tumbling down the hallway. A different Russian grabbed it
by the tail. The vet said it seemed VERY healthy.

The rest of that mission had few if any problems, at least not with the
habitats. The scientists that were using the data could be a little
petulant.

There weren't any real problems until a later mission. That is a story
for another day. I doubt anyone read this far.

--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions (Probably Retired)

J. Clarke

2020-06-11 20:58:23 UTC

Post by Kevrob
http://youtu.be/4cy68OoNHF0
The first stages land like proper Golden Age SF ships, though.
http://youtu.be/v0RuI1OxwL8

Like a dream come true for fans of 1950s SF.
As I am sure everyone here is well aware.

I may have told this story here before. If so, you can skip this.
I was working at NASA on the Rodent Research project. We were flying
mice to the ISS for drug experiments among other things. We had a
payload, 20 white mice onboard the Dragon. It was our first payload on
SpaceX. The previous missions had been on Russian launches.
There were 50 or 60 of us crammed into a conference room at Ames
Research Center in Mtn. View, CA. Some of these people, literally, had
been around since Apollo. Yes, they were old. My system engineer had sat
console for the Shuttle. There was champagne and cake in anticipation of
a successful launch. There were 20-30 large screen HDTVs on the walls.
You could hear a pin drop at launch. It went up and things were good.
Some applause and some high fives. More subdued than I anticipated, but
these were also "old hands". Been there, done that. But the room was
still tense. Some champagne was opened, cake was served. But people's
eyes were still glued to the screens, watching the first stage come down.
By the time the rocket was ignited again, no one was breathing. It was
dead quiet. I remember thinking, "Its coming in too fast! Gonna crash!"
Then it landed and stood up on the raft. Absolute bedlam ensued.
Yelling, screaming, jumping up and down (by an 80 year old Senior
Scientist PHd no less). It was truly something to behold. The rest of
the champagne was opened. I was waiting for someone to have a stroke,
but that was the EMT in me.

That's the game changer that only steely-eyed missile men seem to get.

Oh, go ahead and share. Or vent, as the case may be.

I'm a bit late in sharing, but here goes.
When the Dragon docked, they had to unload it. There was lots of stuff
they were sending up as well as the mice. Two of which were the
aforementioned mouse houses with my crew's programming to operate the
lights, sensors, cameras (visible and IR), telemetry, etc. There had
been upgrades and despite extensive testing, I was nervous. If something
is wrong, the shit is going to fall on my head.
The Russians were assigned to install the habitats. The first thing they
do is try to install the first one in the wrong position in the rack.
The systems people saw this immediately (everything was on camera) and
called up through translators to let them know it went up one and over
one. Then they couldn't find the power/comms cable. And the Russian was
having trouble getting it to go in. You could see him getting more and
more frustrated by the minute.
The Russian disappears. We see him in another camera zooming down the
hallway like superman. Eventually we find out that he went to go root
around in the Dragon. He finds the cable in the Dragon somewhere it
wasn't supposed to be. He come back and tries to hook it up. No joy. Now
he is rally not a happy camper. He disappears again. The American
mission commander comes back and completes the installation. Later he
did one of the most neato wizz-bang wow things I have ever seen. He had
to go get something or take a leak or something and went shooting down
the hall like superman. He is coming to the end of the hall at the same
speed and is going to crash into the wall moving pretty quickly. His
hand shoots out, latches onto a grab bar, and he zooms around the corner
and disappears. You hear a big "Wow" in our Ops area.
Eventually the habitats get installed. Then they have to offload the
mice into the habitats. This consists of grabbing a mouse from the
transport unit, examining it, describing it for the veterinarian who
happened to be sitting next to me, and holding it up in front of the HD
camera, then putting it into the mouse house. They had to do this 20 times.
Meanwhile, we are looking at the telemetry to make sure everything from
the two habitats they were using was working correctly, my part of the
stress. In the middle of this, a mouse bit the commander.

Why am I cheering for the mouse?

Post by BCFD36
He had a
couple of choice words and had instinctively kind of flicked it away and
it went slowly tumbling down the hallway. A different Russian grabbed it
by the tail. The vet said it seemed VERY healthy.

I suppose if it had gotten away there would have been Hell to pay, but
nonetheless the notion of the mouse from Mouse Hunt on the ISS has a
certain entertainment value.

Post by BCFD36
The rest of that mission had few if any problems, at least not with the
habitats. The scientists that were using the data could be a little
petulant.
There weren't any real problems until a later mission. That is a story
for another day. I doubt anyone read this far.

Oh come on, mice in SPAAAAACE.

Lynn McGuire

2020-06-11 21:20:09 UTC

Post by Kevrob
http://youtu.be/4cy68OoNHF0
The first stages land like proper Golden Age SF ships, though.
http://youtu.be/v0RuI1OxwL8

Like a dream come true for fans of 1950s SF.
As I am sure everyone here is well aware.

I may have told this story here before. If so, you can skip this.
I was working at NASA on the Rodent Research project. We were flying
mice to the ISS for drug experiments among other things. We had a
payload, 20 white mice onboard the Dragon. It was our first payload on
SpaceX. The previous missions had been on Russian launches.
There were 50 or 60 of us crammed into a conference room at Ames
Research Center in Mtn. View, CA. Some of these people, literally, had
been around since Apollo. Yes, they were old. My system engineer had sat
console for the Shuttle. There was champagne and cake in anticipation of
a successful launch. There were 20-30 large screen HDTVs on the walls.
You could hear a pin drop at launch. It went up and things were good.
Some applause and some high fives. More subdued than I anticipated, but
these were also "old hands". Been there, done that. But the room was
still tense. Some champagne was opened, cake was served. But people's
eyes were still glued to the screens, watching the first stage come down.
By the time the rocket was ignited again, no one was breathing. It was
dead quiet. I remember thinking, "Its coming in too fast! Gonna crash!"
Then it landed and stood up on the raft. Absolute bedlam ensued.
Yelling, screaming, jumping up and down (by an 80 year old Senior
Scientist PHd no less). It was truly something to behold. The rest of
the champagne was opened. I was waiting for someone to have a stroke,
but that was the EMT in me.

That's the game changer that only steely-eyed missile men seem to get.

Oh, go ahead and share. Or vent, as the case may be.

I'm a bit late in sharing, but here goes.
When the Dragon docked, they had to unload it. There was lots of stuff
they were sending up as well as the mice. Two of which were the
aforementioned mouse houses with my crew's programming to operate the
lights, sensors, cameras (visible and IR), telemetry, etc. There had
been upgrades and despite extensive testing, I was nervous. If something
is wrong, the shit is going to fall on my head.
The Russians were assigned to install the habitats. The first thing they
do is try to install the first one in the wrong position in the rack.
The systems people saw this immediately (everything was on camera) and
called up through translators to let them know it went up one and over
one. Then they couldn't find the power/comms cable. And the Russian was
having trouble getting it to go in. You could see him getting more and
more frustrated by the minute.
The Russian disappears. We see him in another camera zooming down the
hallway like superman. Eventually we find out that he went to go root
around in the Dragon. He finds the cable in the Dragon somewhere it
wasn't supposed to be. He come back and tries to hook it up. No joy. Now
he is rally not a happy camper. He disappears again. The American
mission commander comes back and completes the installation. Later he
did one of the most neato wizz-bang wow things I have ever seen. He had
to go get something or take a leak or something and went shooting down
the hall like superman. He is coming to the end of the hall at the same
speed and is going to crash into the wall moving pretty quickly. His
hand shoots out, latches onto a grab bar, and he zooms around the corner
and disappears. You hear a big "Wow" in our Ops area.
Eventually the habitats get installed. Then they have to offload the
mice into the habitats. This consists of grabbing a mouse from the
transport unit, examining it, describing it for the veterinarian who
happened to be sitting next to me, and holding it up in front of the HD
camera, then putting it into the mouse house. They had to do this 20 times.
Meanwhile, we are looking at the telemetry to make sure everything from
the two habitats they were using was working correctly, my part of the
stress. In the middle of this, a mouse bit the commander.

Why am I cheering for the mouse?

I suppose if it had gotten away there would have been Hell to pay, but
nonetheless the notion of the mouse from Mouse Hunt on the ISS has a
certain entertainment value.

Oh come on, mice in SPAAAAACE.

One wonders how long it would take the mice to learn how to propel
themselves in the ISS.

Lynn

BCFD36

2020-06-12 17:37:45 UTC

[stuff deleted]

Post by Lynn McGuire
One wonders how long it would take the mice to learn how to propel
themselves in the ISS.
Lynn

Not long. They would run around their mouse house like it was a wheel -
floor to wall to ceiling to wall to floor, etc. almost obsessively. It
was entertaining for awhile. Then a little creepy.

--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions (Probably Retired)

Dimensional Traveler

2020-06-12 23:17:47 UTC

On Sun, 31 May 2020 18:55:14 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob

[stuff deleted]

Post by Lynn McGuire
One wonders how long it would take the mice to learn how to propel
themselves in the ISS.
Lynn

Not long. They would run around their mouse house like it was a wheel -
floor to wall to ceiling to wall to floor, etc. almost obsessively. It
was entertaining for awhile. Then a little creepy.

Just wait till they synchronize their running....

--
<to be filled in at a later date>

Robert Carnegie

2020-06-11 21:34:19 UTC

James White, "The Conspirators" (1954)

"The enlightened mice have discovered what happens
to laboratory animals" - on a spaceship in this case.

Hmm. Another of his stories about the problem of
cruelty presented noble aliens roaming the galaxy
seeking any intelligent species that wasn't
!irredeemably vicious, that could be friendly.
Their latest stop coincided with a certain familiar
planet launching an animal experiment subject in a
space capsule, and at last demonstrating an ethical
standard leading to hope for mutual understanding,
when we euthanized it by remote control.

Dimensional Traveler

2020-06-11 21:04:39 UTC

Post by Kevrob
http://youtu.be/4cy68OoNHF0
The first stages land like proper Golden Age SF ships, though.
http://youtu.be/v0RuI1OxwL8

Like a dream come true for fans of 1950s SF.
As I am sure everyone here is well aware.

I may have told this story here before. If so, you can skip this.
I was working at NASA on the Rodent Research project. We were flying
mice to the ISS for drug experiments among other things. We had a
payload, 20 white mice onboard the Dragon. It was our first payload on
SpaceX. The previous missions had been on Russian launches.
There were 50 or 60 of us crammed into a conference room at Ames
Research Center in Mtn. View, CA. Some of these people, literally, had
been around since Apollo. Yes, they were old. My system engineer had sat
console for the Shuttle. There was champagne and cake in anticipation of
a successful launch. There were 20-30 large screen HDTVs on the walls.
You could hear a pin drop at launch. It went up and things were good.
Some applause and some high fives. More subdued than I anticipated, but
these were also "old hands". Been there, done that. But the room was
still tense. Some champagne was opened, cake was served. But people's
eyes were still glued to the screens, watching the first stage come down.
By the time the rocket was ignited again, no one was breathing. It was
dead quiet. I remember thinking, "Its coming in too fast! Gonna crash!"
Then it landed and stood up on the raft. Absolute bedlam ensued.
Yelling, screaming, jumping up and down (by an 80 year old Senior
Scientist PHd no less). It was truly something to behold. The rest of
the champagne was opened. I was waiting for someone to have a stroke,
but that was the EMT in me.

That's the game changer that only steely-eyed missile men seem to get.

Oh, go ahead and share. Or vent, as the case may be.

I'm a bit late in sharing, but here goes.
When the Dragon docked, they had to unload it. There was lots of stuff
they were sending up as well as the mice. Two of which were the
aforementioned mouse houses with my crew's programming to operate the
lights, sensors, cameras (visible and IR), telemetry, etc. There had
been upgrades and despite extensive testing, I was nervous. If something
is wrong, the shit is going to fall on my head.
The Russians were assigned to install the habitats. The first thing they
do is try to install the first one in the wrong position in the rack.
The systems people saw this immediately (everything was on camera) and
called up through translators to let them know it went up one and over
one. Then they couldn't find the power/comms cable. And the Russian was
having trouble getting it to go in. You could see him getting more and
more frustrated by the minute.
The Russian disappears. We see him in another camera zooming down the
hallway like superman. Eventually we find out that he went to go root
around in the Dragon. He finds the cable in the Dragon somewhere it
wasn't supposed to be. He come back and tries to hook it up. No joy. Now
he is rally not a happy camper. He disappears again. The American
mission commander comes back and completes the installation. Later he
did one of the most neato wizz-bang wow things I have ever seen. He had
to go get something or take a leak or something and went shooting down
the hall like superman. He is coming to the end of the hall at the same
speed and is going to crash into the wall moving pretty quickly. His
hand shoots out, latches onto a grab bar, and he zooms around the corner
and disappears. You hear a big "Wow" in our Ops area.
Eventually the habitats get installed. Then they have to offload the
mice into the habitats. This consists of grabbing a mouse from the
transport unit, examining it, describing it for the veterinarian who
happened to be sitting next to me, and holding it up in front of the HD
camera, then putting it into the mouse house. They had to do this 20 times.
Meanwhile, we are looking at the telemetry to make sure everything from
the two habitats they were using was working correctly, my part of the
stress. In the middle of this, a mouse bit the commander. He had a
couple of choice words and had instinctively kind of flicked it away and
it went slowly tumbling down the hallway. A different Russian grabbed it
by the tail. The vet said it seemed VERY healthy.
The rest of that mission had few if any problems, at least not with the
habitats. The scientists that were using the data could be a little
petulant.
There weren't any real problems until a later mission. That is a story
for another day. I doubt anyone read this far.

"In Russia, the mice fight back!" :D

--
<to be filled in at a later date>

J. Clarke

2020-06-11 23:33:51 UTC

On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:04:39 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Kevrob
http://youtu.be/4cy68OoNHF0
The first stages land like proper Golden Age SF ships, though.
http://youtu.be/v0RuI1OxwL8

Like a dream come true for fans of 1950s SF.
As I am sure everyone here is well aware.

I may have told this story here before. If so, you can skip this.
I was working at NASA on the Rodent Research project. We were flying
mice to the ISS for drug experiments among other things. We had a
payload, 20 white mice onboard the Dragon. It was our first payload on
SpaceX. The previous missions had been on Russian launches.
There were 50 or 60 of us crammed into a conference room at Ames
Research Center in Mtn. View, CA. Some of these people, literally, had
been around since Apollo. Yes, they were old. My system engineer had sat
console for the Shuttle. There was champagne and cake in anticipation of
a successful launch. There were 20-30 large screen HDTVs on the walls.
You could hear a pin drop at launch. It went up and things were good.
Some applause and some high fives. More subdued than I anticipated, but
these were also "old hands". Been there, done that. But the room was
still tense. Some champagne was opened, cake was served. But people's
eyes were still glued to the screens, watching the first stage come down.
By the time the rocket was ignited again, no one was breathing. It was
dead quiet. I remember thinking, "Its coming in too fast! Gonna crash!"
Then it landed and stood up on the raft. Absolute bedlam ensued.
Yelling, screaming, jumping up and down (by an 80 year old Senior
Scientist PHd no less). It was truly something to behold. The rest of
the champagne was opened. I was waiting for someone to have a stroke,
but that was the EMT in me.

That's the game changer that only steely-eyed missile men seem to get.

Oh, go ahead and share. Or vent, as the case may be.

I'm a bit late in sharing, but here goes.
When the Dragon docked, they had to unload it. There was lots of stuff
they were sending up as well as the mice. Two of which were the
aforementioned mouse houses with my crew's programming to operate the
lights, sensors, cameras (visible and IR), telemetry, etc. There had
been upgrades and despite extensive testing, I was nervous. If something
is wrong, the shit is going to fall on my head.
The Russians were assigned to install the habitats. The first thing they
do is try to install the first one in the wrong position in the rack.
The systems people saw this immediately (everything was on camera) and
called up through translators to let them know it went up one and over
one. Then they couldn't find the power/comms cable. And the Russian was
having trouble getting it to go in. You could see him getting more and
more frustrated by the minute.
The Russian disappears. We see him in another camera zooming down the
hallway like superman. Eventually we find out that he went to go root
around in the Dragon. He finds the cable in the Dragon somewhere it
wasn't supposed to be. He come back and tries to hook it up. No joy. Now
he is rally not a happy camper. He disappears again. The American
mission commander comes back and completes the installation. Later he
did one of the most neato wizz-bang wow things I have ever seen. He had
to go get something or take a leak or something and went shooting down
the hall like superman. He is coming to the end of the hall at the same
speed and is going to crash into the wall moving pretty quickly. His
hand shoots out, latches onto a grab bar, and he zooms around the corner
and disappears. You hear a big "Wow" in our Ops area.
Eventually the habitats get installed. Then they have to offload the
mice into the habitats. This consists of grabbing a mouse from the
transport unit, examining it, describing it for the veterinarian who
happened to be sitting next to me, and holding it up in front of the HD
camera, then putting it into the mouse house. They had to do this 20 times.
Meanwhile, we are looking at the telemetry to make sure everything from
the two habitats they were using was working correctly, my part of the
stress. In the middle of this, a mouse bit the commander. He had a
couple of choice words and had instinctively kind of flicked it away and
it went slowly tumbling down the hallway. A different Russian grabbed it
by the tail. The vet said it seemed VERY healthy.
The rest of that mission had few if any problems, at least not with the
habitats. The scientists that were using the data could be a little
petulant.
There weren't any real problems until a later mission. That is a story
for another day. I doubt anyone read this far.

"In Russia, the mice fight back!" :D

Flashing on the Aeslin mice in a space station. All Hail the
Priestess of Thunder, Lightning, and Queasy Stomachs!

Lynn McGuire

2020-06-11 23:55:34 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:04:39 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Kevrob
http://youtu.be/4cy68OoNHF0
The first stages land like proper Golden Age SF ships, though.
http://youtu.be/v0RuI1OxwL8

Like a dream come true for fans of 1950s SF.
As I am sure everyone here is well aware.

I may have told this story here before. If so, you can skip this.
I was working at NASA on the Rodent Research project. We were flying
mice to the ISS for drug experiments among other things. We had a
payload, 20 white mice onboard the Dragon. It was our first payload on
SpaceX. The previous missions had been on Russian launches.
There were 50 or 60 of us crammed into a conference room at Ames
Research Center in Mtn. View, CA. Some of these people, literally, had
been around since Apollo. Yes, they were old. My system engineer had sat
console for the Shuttle. There was champagne and cake in anticipation of
a successful launch. There were 20-30 large screen HDTVs on the walls.
You could hear a pin drop at launch. It went up and things were good.
Some applause and some high fives. More subdued than I anticipated, but
these were also "old hands". Been there, done that. But the room was
still tense. Some champagne was opened, cake was served. But people's
eyes were still glued to the screens, watching the first stage come down.
By the time the rocket was ignited again, no one was breathing. It was
dead quiet. I remember thinking, "Its coming in too fast! Gonna crash!"
Then it landed and stood up on the raft. Absolute bedlam ensued.
Yelling, screaming, jumping up and down (by an 80 year old Senior
Scientist PHd no less). It was truly something to behold. The rest of
the champagne was opened. I was waiting for someone to have a stroke,
but that was the EMT in me.

That's the game changer that only steely-eyed missile men seem to get.

Oh, go ahead and share. Or vent, as the case may be.

I'm a bit late in sharing, but here goes.
When the Dragon docked, they had to unload it. There was lots of stuff
they were sending up as well as the mice. Two of which were the
aforementioned mouse houses with my crew's programming to operate the
lights, sensors, cameras (visible and IR), telemetry, etc. There had
been upgrades and despite extensive testing, I was nervous. If something
is wrong, the shit is going to fall on my head.
The Russians were assigned to install the habitats. The first thing they
do is try to install the first one in the wrong position in the rack.
The systems people saw this immediately (everything was on camera) and
called up through translators to let them know it went up one and over
one. Then they couldn't find the power/comms cable. And the Russian was
having trouble getting it to go in. You could see him getting more and
more frustrated by the minute.
The Russian disappears. We see him in another camera zooming down the
hallway like superman. Eventually we find out that he went to go root
around in the Dragon. He finds the cable in the Dragon somewhere it
wasn't supposed to be. He come back and tries to hook it up. No joy. Now
he is rally not a happy camper. He disappears again. The American
mission commander comes back and completes the installation. Later he
did one of the most neato wizz-bang wow things I have ever seen. He had
to go get something or take a leak or something and went shooting down
the hall like superman. He is coming to the end of the hall at the same
speed and is going to crash into the wall moving pretty quickly. His
hand shoots out, latches onto a grab bar, and he zooms around the corner
and disappears. You hear a big "Wow" in our Ops area.
Eventually the habitats get installed. Then they have to offload the
mice into the habitats. This consists of grabbing a mouse from the
transport unit, examining it, describing it for the veterinarian who
happened to be sitting next to me, and holding it up in front of the HD
camera, then putting it into the mouse house. They had to do this 20 times.
Meanwhile, we are looking at the telemetry to make sure everything from
the two habitats they were using was working correctly, my part of the
stress. In the middle of this, a mouse bit the commander. He had a
couple of choice words and had instinctively kind of flicked it away and
it went slowly tumbling down the hallway. A different Russian grabbed it
by the tail. The vet said it seemed VERY healthy.
The rest of that mission had few if any problems, at least not with the
habitats. The scientists that were using the data could be a little
petulant.
There weren't any real problems until a later mission. That is a story
for another day. I doubt anyone read this far.

"In Russia, the mice fight back!" :D

Flashing on the Aeslin mice in a space station. All Hail the
Priestess of Thunder, Lightning, and Queasy Stomachs!

Heh !

Lynn

Lynn McGuire

2020-06-11 21:18:34 UTC

Post by Kevrob
http://youtu.be/4cy68OoNHF0
The first stages land like proper Golden Age SF ships, though.
http://youtu.be/v0RuI1OxwL8

Like a dream come true for fans of 1950s SF.
As I am sure everyone here is well aware.

I may have told this story here before. If so, you can skip this.
I was working at NASA on the Rodent Research project. We were flying
mice to the ISS for drug experiments among other things. We had a
payload, 20 white mice onboard the Dragon. It was our first payload on
SpaceX. The previous missions had been on Russian launches.
There were 50 or 60 of us crammed into a conference room at Ames
Research Center in Mtn. View, CA. Some of these people, literally, had
been around since Apollo. Yes, they were old. My system engineer had sat
console for the Shuttle. There was champagne and cake in anticipation of
a successful launch. There were 20-30 large screen HDTVs on the walls.
You could hear a pin drop at launch. It went up and things were good.
Some applause and some high fives. More subdued than I anticipated, but
these were also "old hands". Been there, done that. But the room was
still tense. Some champagne was opened, cake was served. But people's
eyes were still glued to the screens, watching the first stage come down.
By the time the rocket was ignited again, no one was breathing. It was
dead quiet. I remember thinking, "Its coming in too fast! Gonna crash!"
Then it landed and stood up on the raft. Absolute bedlam ensued.
Yelling, screaming, jumping up and down (by an 80 year old Senior
Scientist PHd no less). It was truly something to behold. The rest of
the champagne was opened. I was waiting for someone to have a stroke,
but that was the EMT in me.

That's the game changer that only steely-eyed missile men seem to get.

Oh, go ahead and share. Or vent, as the case may be.

I'm a bit late in sharing, but here goes.
When the Dragon docked, they had to unload it. There was lots of stuff
they were sending up as well as the mice. Two of which were the
aforementioned mouse houses with my crew's programming to operate the
lights, sensors, cameras (visible and IR), telemetry, etc. There had
been upgrades and despite extensive testing, I was nervous. If something
is wrong, the shit is going to fall on my head.
The Russians were assigned to install the habitats. The first thing they
do is try to install the first one in the wrong position in the rack.
The systems people saw this immediately (everything was on camera) and
called up through translators to let them know it went up one and over
one. Then they couldn't find the power/comms cable. And the Russian was
having trouble getting it to go in. You could see him getting more and
more frustrated by the minute.
The Russian disappears. We see him in another camera zooming down the
hallway like superman. Eventually we find out that he went to go root
around in the Dragon. He finds the cable in the Dragon somewhere it
wasn't supposed to be. He come back and tries to hook it up. No joy. Now
he is rally not a happy camper. He disappears again. The American
mission commander comes back and completes the installation. Later he
did one of the most neato wizz-bang wow things I have ever seen. He had
to go get something or take a leak or something and went shooting down
the hall like superman. He is coming to the end of the hall at the same
speed and is going to crash into the wall moving pretty quickly. His
hand shoots out, latches onto a grab bar, and he zooms around the corner
and disappears. You hear a big "Wow" in our Ops area.
Eventually the habitats get installed. Then they have to offload the
mice into the habitats. This consists of grabbing a mouse from the
transport unit, examining it, describing it for the veterinarian who
happened to be sitting next to me, and holding it up in front of the HD
camera, then putting it into the mouse house. They had to do this 20 times.
Meanwhile, we are looking at the telemetry to make sure everything from
the two habitats they were using was working correctly, my part of the
stress. In the middle of this, a mouse bit the commander. He had a
couple of choice words and had instinctively kind of flicked it away and
it went slowly tumbling down the hallway. A different Russian grabbed it
by the tail. The vet said it seemed VERY healthy.
The rest of that mission had few if any problems, at least not with the
habitats. The scientists that were using the data could be a little
petulant.
There weren't any real problems until a later mission. That is a story
for another day. I doubt anyone read this far.

Thanks !

Lynn

Peter Trei

2020-06-11 21:44:59 UTC

Post by BCFD36
I doubt anyone read this far.

In that, you are mistaken!

pt

BCFD36

2020-06-12 17:39:25 UTC

Post by BCFD36
I doubt anyone read this far.

In that, you are mistaken!
pt

Thanks to all who did read that far.

--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions (Probably Retired)

Peter Trei

2020-06-01 19:57:50 UTC

It was originally designed for terrestrial landing, chutes followed by a final slowdown with the Draco
Thrusters. But NASA got cold feet, and insisted on water landings.

Pt

John Halpenny

2020-06-02 00:41:27 UTC

It was originally designed for terrestrial landing, chutes followed by a final slowdown with the Draco
Thrusters. But NASA got cold feet, and insisted on water landings.
Pt

The Americans will get to land touchdowns soon - only 50 years behind the Russians.
,

Alan Baker

2020-06-02 00:51:49 UTC

It was originally designed for terrestrial landing, chutes followed by a final slowdown with the Draco
Thrusters. But NASA got cold feet, and insisted on water landings.
Pt

The Americans will get to land touchdowns soon - only 50 years behind the Russians.
,

NASA has had the luxury of not NEEDING to do land touchdowns, and they
still don't.

It isn't lack of technical ability: it is choice.

J. Clarke

2020-06-02 01:34:26 UTC

On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:41:27 -0700 (PDT), John Halpenny

It was originally designed for terrestrial landing, chutes followed by a final slowdown with the Draco
Thrusters. But NASA got cold feet, and insisted on water landings.
Pt

The Americans will get to land touchdowns soon - only 50 years behind the Russians.

Soon? You seem to be forgetting something called the "Space Shuttle".
But why bother when you're as accurate on water as SpaceX has proven
to be?

John Halpenny

2020-06-02 15:47:44 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:41:27 -0700 (PDT), John Halpenny

It was originally designed for terrestrial landing, chutes followed by a final slowdown with the Draco
Thrusters. But NASA got cold feet, and insisted on water landings.
Pt

The Americans will get to land touchdowns soon - only 50 years behind the Russians.

Soon? You seem to be forgetting something called the "Space Shuttle".
But why bother when you're as accurate on water as SpaceX has proven
to be?

The Space Shuttle was a dead end project that was cancelled years ago.
Now they are rediscovering Russian style capsules.

John

J. Clarke

2020-06-02 16:48:39 UTC

On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:47:44 -0700 (PDT), John Halpenny

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:41:27 -0700 (PDT), John Halpenny

It was originally designed for terrestrial landing, chutes followed by a final slowdown with the Draco
Thrusters. But NASA got cold feet, and insisted on water landings.
Pt

The Americans will get to land touchdowns soon - only 50 years behind the Russians.

Soon? You seem to be forgetting something called the "Space Shuttle".
But why bother when you're as accurate on water as SpaceX has proven
to be?

The Space Shuttle was a dead end project that was cancelled years ago.

So what? You're pretending that the US is incapable of soft-landing a
spacecraft when it has been demonstrated more than 100 times that that
is not the case.

Post by John Halpenny
Now they are rediscovering Russian style capsules.

Actually we are developing improved technology. The "Russian style
capsules" can carry 3 astronauts for 270 million dollars. Dragon 2
can carry 7 astronauts for 120 million dollars. Bit different there
mostly because the almighty Russians who you worship so much have
never figured out how to recover a booster.

And then there's the next generation from SpaceX that will not only
land on land, but it will soft-land, be immediately reusable, be able
to land on the Moon or Mars as well, and carry up to 100 astronauts.
At least that's the spec, and SpaceX usually delivers what they say
they are going to deliver.

Lynn McGuire

2020-06-04 18:42:00 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:47:44 -0700 (PDT), John Halpenny

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:41:27 -0700 (PDT), John Halpenny

It was originally designed for terrestrial landing, chutes followed by a final slowdown with the Draco
Thrusters. But NASA got cold feet, and insisted on water landings.
Pt

The Americans will get to land touchdowns soon - only 50 years behind the Russians.

Soon? You seem to be forgetting something called the "Space Shuttle".
But why bother when you're as accurate on water as SpaceX has proven
to be?

The Space Shuttle was a dead end project that was cancelled years ago.

So what? You're pretending that the US is incapable of soft-landing a
spacecraft when it has been demonstrated more than 100 times that that
is not the case.

Post by John Halpenny
Now they are rediscovering Russian style capsules.

Actually we are developing improved technology. The "Russian style
capsules" can carry 3 astronauts for 270 million dollars. Dragon 2
can carry 7 astronauts for 120 million dollars. Bit different there
mostly because the almighty Russians who you worship so much have
never figured out how to recover a booster.
And then there's the next generation from SpaceX that will not only
land on land, but it will soft-land, be immediately reusable, be able
to land on the Moon or Mars as well, and carry up to 100 astronauts.
At least that's the spec, and SpaceX usually delivers what they say
they are going to deliver.

Or go ballistic from New York City to Tokyo in 30 minutes with 200
passengers, refuel, and go back with another 200 passengers. All at
$5,000 a head with a bonus of 15 minutes weightless in LEO (barf bags
will NOT be optional).

Lynn

Alan Baker

2020-06-02 20:30:36 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:41:27 -0700 (PDT), John Halpenny