schubert

Post by Alex Brown
Hollywood/Reher (mono), amazingly refined and with controversial swift
Adagio (per instruction from record producer, allegedly).

Whoops, think I mixing this up with Smetana Quartet/Sadlo, with its fast
Adagio.

--
- Alex Brown

MELMOTH

2021-08-30 10:15:45 UTC

Post by Malcolm Y
Hi
who for the quintet in C by Schubert?
I only have the Berg
thanks

Absolute masterpiece...And as all masterpieces allow an infinite
vision, there is very little waste in the abundant discography !

Personally I remain faithful to my first acquisition :

- *Stern* / *Casals* / *Tortelier* (Sony 1952)...Unequalled dramatic
power...What fervor!...What expressive imagination!...Unalterably
sublime version, I say...

But there is also :

- *Weller* / *Gurtler* (Decca 1970)...Subtlety of nuance and unheard of
colors...Constant poetry...A must, I say...
- *Juilliard II* / *Greenhouse* (CBS 1974)...Simply magnificent...
- *Amadeus* / *Cohen* (DG 1986)...3rd of their recordings...Miraculous
simplicity, sovereign breathing, extreme tension...Masterful...
- *Frank* / *Galimir* / *Tenebom* / *Wiley* / *Lichten* (Live Sony
1986)...Of an energetic alacrity
- *Hollywood* / *Reher* (Testament 1951)...Mythical Verson since
ever...Of an infinite and schubertian nostalgia...

And dozens of other magnificent versions, of course...
Without counting all that one can find on YT...But there, it is the
field of Koko...I thus leave the word to him which as everyone knows is
of bronze...

MELMOTH

2021-08-30 11:01:46 UTC

But there, it is the field of Koko...I thus leave the word to him which as
everyone knows is of bronze...

But I just heard from Radio-Islamabad that the head of the Singapore
Central Prison has allowed Koko to participate in the Disabled
Olympics...
He is competing in the 110 meters hurdles, in the category
'deaf-blind-one-legged'... He was allowed for this great occasion to
run UNDER the hurdles...
I am sure that many of us on RMCR hope that he will win the bronze
medal...

Ricardo Jimenez

2021-08-30 14:51:29 UTC

Post by Malcolm Y
Hi
who for the quintet in C by Schubert?
I only have the Berg
thanks

An orchestral arrangement with nice wind solos:

Anybody know of other arrangements? I think one for wind quintet
would work well.

Ricardo Jimenez

2021-08-30 15:53:13 UTC

On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 10:51:29 -0400, Ricardo Jimenez

Post by Ricardo Jimenez

Post by Malcolm Y
Hi
who for the quintet in C by Schubert?
I only have the Berg
thanks

http://youtu.be/clVVU_e_CDc
Anybody know of other arrangements? I think one for wind quintet
would work well.

I just remembered Frederick Stock's orchestral arrangement with sleigh
bells in the finale.
https://rec.music.classical.recordings.narkive.com/Zt28ZbzJ/frederick-stock-re-orchestrations

I've been on the lookout for recordings the 3 Stock orchestrations,
mentioned in the old thread, for years. No luck so far.

Frank Berger

2021-08-30 16:59:39 UTC

Post by Ricardo Jimenez

Post by Malcolm Y
Hi
who for the quintet in C by Schubert?
I only have the Berg
thanks

http://youtu.be/clVVU_e_CDc
Anybody know of other arrangements? I think one for wind quintet
would work well.

There is a Camerata Atlas arrangement by Dalia Atlas. There ares several on E-bay for cheap. The only Camerata Atlas (or is it Atlas Camerata - I've seen it both ways) Without checking, I think the only Camerata Atlas recording I have is of Tchaikovsky, Suk and Dvorak string serenades, which my notes, say, were unimpressive.

Ricardo Jimenez

2021-08-30 22:49:12 UTC

On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 12:59:39 -0400, Frank Berger

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Ricardo Jimenez

Post by Malcolm Y
Hi
who for the quintet in C by Schubert?
I only have the Berg
thanks

http://youtu.be/clVVU_e_CDc
Anybody know of other arrangements? I think one for wind quintet
would work well.

Thanks. The Atlas arranement for string orchestra is on Spotify.
There are several other arrangements for string orchestra on youtube.
I am most interested in what wind instruments can do here. I've heard
the original so many times that I don't listen to it anymore.

Alan Cooper

2021-08-30 15:00:18 UTC

Post by Malcolm Y
Hi
who for the quintet in C by Schubert?
I only have the Berg
thanks

Try Vogler + Müller-Schott (Profil) or Vellinger + Greenhouse (BBC Mag 7/3). As Melmoth says, there are soooo many fine renditions. Among his recommendations, I'd single the Weller+ recording.

AC

Richard Sauer

2021-08-30 15:30:25 UTC

On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 8:00:20 AM UTC-7,

Post by Malcolm Y
Hi
who for the quintet in C by Schubert?
I only have the Berg
thanks

For something a little different try Heifetz, Piatigorsky, Primrose, Baker, and Gabor Rejto. A highly charged performance, where the Heifetz sound dominates, but I like it.
RS

Todd Michel McComb

2021-08-30 20:46:03 UTC

Post by Malcolm Y
who for the quintet in C by Schubert?

How about a subcategory for 21st century performances?

I like Belcea. Ebene has great, high-def sound but the interpretation
doesn't stay with me....

Chris from Lafayette

2021-08-31 18:37:19 UTC

I like Belcea. Ebene has great, high-def sound but the interpretation
doesn't stay with me....

Maybe the sound isn't high-def enough? ;-)

(And as long as we're listing faves, it's Prazak and Coppey on the Praga label for me - in all its MCh glory! Or, maybe even better, the Tacet recording with the Auryn Quartet and Poltera - which puts you in the middle of things in MCh, just where I want to be when it comes to the C-major Quintet!)

Todd Michel McComb

2021-08-31 18:45:17 UTC

Post by Chris from Lafayette
Maybe the sound isn't high-def enough? ;-)

The sound I love....

I don't have multichannel, though, so don't know what to make of
your recs.

Chris from Lafayette

2021-08-31 19:02:19 UTC

Post by Todd Michel McComb
I don't have multichannel, though, so don't know what to make of
your recs.

Just a matter of time - I foresee a future where EVERYONE has Dolby Atmos, even though I may no longer be around for it! ;-)

(And, BTW, the Praga album with the Prazaks has 2Ch tracks too - for your added convenience.)

Best,

Todd Michel McComb

2021-08-31 20:32:30 UTC

I am still waiting for a classical record reviewer tell us how
really great a disc sounds with Dolby Atmos.

It seems to me that one thing the review situation would need to
include then, for something like that to be valuable, is access to
multiple encodings of the same performance. IME, there is one
version provided for review, so no comparison is possible. And I'm
hesitant to say too much about high-def sound when I can't actually
compare....

Frank Berger

2021-08-31 20:36:49 UTC

On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 12:02:19 -0700 (PDT), Chris from Lafayette

Post by Todd Michel McComb
I don't have multichannel, though, so don't know what to make of
your recs.

Just a matter of time - I foresee a future where EVERYONE has Dolby Atmos, even though I may no longer be around for it! ;-)
(And, BTW, the Praga album with the Prazaks has 2Ch tracks too - for your added convenience.)
Best,

I am still waiting for a classical record reviewer tell us how really
great a disc sounds with Dolby Atmos. So far I have just read how
great movies with helicopter noises bouncing off your ceiling sound.
Opera blu-rays with 15 year old 5.1 lossless surround are really good,
I admit.

Being essentially deaf in one ear and with what I expect is normal high frequency loss for a 73 year old in the other, I doubt I am a candidate for Dolby Atmos, whoever or whatever that is.

Chris from Lafayette

2021-09-01 19:20:51 UTC

I admit, I have only three Dolby Atmos titles: Karajan's 70's set of Beethoven Symphonies (best incarnation ever!), the recent complete Karajan Sibelius DG recordings (again, best incarnation ever!), and the Salonen/LAPO Moussorgsky/Bartok/Stravinsky album (formerly released in 2006 as an SACD). (I've got an Argerich Chopin set in Dolby Atmos on order.)

HOWEVER, Apple's recent foray in "spatial audio" has resulted in the release of a number of other titles from Warner, DG and Decca in the Dolby Atmos format - exclusively available via Apple Music for now. Even more noteworthy, the Gramophone Awards 2021 has a new category this year: "Spatial Audio". And just by coincidence (LOL!) Apple has a full-page ad in that hoary publication, offering congratulations to all of this year's nominees "from your friends at Apple"!

And the nominees (in the "Spatial Audio" category) are. . .

Bach: WTC II - Anderszewski (Warner)
Dvorak: Cello Concerto - Soltani, Barenboim, SkD (DG)
Elgar: Cello Concerto, Enigma Variaions - Kanneh-Mason, Rattle, LSO (Decca)
Ives: Complete Symphonies - Dudamel, LAPO (DG)
Josquin et al: "The Golden Renaissance" - Stile Antico (Decca)
Rachmaninoff: Symphony No. 1, Symphonic Dances - Nezet-Seguin, Philadelphia Orchestra (DG)

(BTW, I agree with you about the opera blu-rays from 15 years ago!)

Ricardo Jimenez

2021-09-01 22:18:44 UTC

On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 12:20:51 -0700 (PDT), Chris from Lafayette

I admit, I have only three Dolby Atmos titles: Karajan's 70's set of Beethoven Symphonies (best incarnation ever!), the recent complete Karajan Sibelius DG recordings (again, best incarnation ever!), and the Salonen/LAPO Moussorgsky/Bartok/Stravinsky album (formerly released in 2006 as an SACD). (I've got an Argerich Chopin set in Dolby Atmos on order.)
HOWEVER, Apple's recent foray in "spatial audio" has resulted in the release of a number of other titles from Warner, DG and Decca in the Dolby Atmos format - exclusively available via Apple Music for now. Even more noteworthy, the Gramophone Awards 2021 has a new category this year: "Spatial Audio". And just by coincidence (LOL!) Apple has a full-page ad in that hoary publication, offering congratulations to all of this year's nominees "from your friends at Apple"!
And the nominees (in the "Spatial Audio" category) are. . .
Bach: WTC II - Anderszewski (Warner)
Dvorak: Cello Concerto - Soltani, Barenboim, SkD (DG)
Elgar: Cello Concerto, Enigma Variaions - Kanneh-Mason, Rattle, LSO (Decca)
Ives: Complete Symphonies - Dudamel, LAPO (DG)
Josquin et al: "The Golden Renaissance" - Stile Antico (Decca)
Rachmaninoff: Symphony No. 1, Symphonic Dances - Nezet-Seguin, Philadelphia Orchestra (DG)
(BTW, I agree with you about the opera blu-rays from 15 years ago!)

Did you invest in the equipment needed to listen to Dolby Atmos? I
believe at least two upward firing speakers are needed to be added to
a stereo setup and an amplifier/receiver that suppports it. I suppose
it is possible that having more speakers bouncing music off your walls
and ceiling might give an experience closer to what you enjoy in a
concert hall setting.

Herman

2021-09-02 01:53:36 UTC

Post by Ricardo Jimenez
I suppose
it is possible that having more speakers bouncing music off your walls
and ceiling might give an experience closer to what you enjoy in a
concert hall setting.

only if you've never been in a concert hall.

Chris from Lafayette

2021-09-02 19:59:19 UTC

Post by Ricardo Jimenez
I suppose
it is possible that having more speakers bouncing music off your walls
and ceiling might give an experience closer to what you enjoy in a
concert hall setting.

only if you've never been in a concert hall.

Hey, Herman - are you by any chance familiar with Aesop's fable of "The fox and the grapes"? ;-)

Herman

2021-09-02 21:02:34 UTC

Post by Chris from Lafayette
Hey, Herman - are you by any chance familiar with Aesop's fable of "The fox and the grapes"? ;-)

what makes the sound of a live orchestra different from hifi @ home is all the overtones from actual string instruments and winds which aren't captured and reproduced in recordings. It just doesn't happen, so no matter how many speaker boxes you position in your home, you're making the hifi dealer very happy, but it's got nothing to do with live instruments.
The idea that you should position little speakers at the back wall or on the ceiling to approach concert sound is ridiculous. In a concert hall the sound is coming from one place: the stage. There is not a miniature pianist playing an upside-down piano on the ceiling. Yes, sound is reflected from walls in a concert hall, but so is sound in a living room. It's just another way of selling hardware.
Live instruments are totally different.
Even with a marching band you can't yet see, two blocks over, you immediately hear it's live, because of these intangible sounds you'll never hear in a recording.

Matthew Silverstein

2021-09-03 19:09:44 UTC

Post by Herman
The idea that you should position little speakers at the back wall or on the ceiling to approach concert sound is ridiculous. In a concert hall the sound is coming from one place: the stage.
There is not a miniature pianist playing an upside-down piano on the ceiling. Yes, sound is reflected from walls in a concert hall, but so is sound in a living room. It's just another way of selling hardware.

This is nonsense. The reflections that make their way to a listener's ear in a (good) concert hall are nothing like the reflections that make their way to one's ear in the average listening room. So, well-designed multichannel recordings can make a real and positive difference when it comes to attempting to replicate (as best as possible) the aural concert experience. All one needs in order to hear this -- other than a decent multichannel set up -- is an SACD that is well mastered in both stereo and multichannel.

Matty

Frank Berger

2021-09-03 19:52:49 UTC

All one needs in order to hear this -- other than a decent multichannel set up -- is an SACD that is well mastered in both stereo and multichannel.
Nope. You also need working ears preferably 2) and a brain.

Post by Matthew Silverstein
Matty

Chris from Lafayette

2021-09-03 21:31:52 UTC

. . . The reflections that make their way to a listener's ear in a (good) concert hall are nothing like the reflections that make their way to one's ear in the average listening room. So, well-designed multichannel recordings can make a real and positive difference when it comes to attempting to replicate (as best as possible) the aural concert experience

Matty

Frank - if you're saying what I think you're saying, then I appreciate your post too! But I think that what Matty was emphasizing is that, even confining oneself to one's listening room, one can hear the differences in realism between 2Ch and MCh - even with our two working ears. ;-)

Chris from Lafayette

2021-09-03 21:25:37 UTC

Thank you, Matty! At least it appears that you have some understanding of acoustics! ;-)

Matthew Silverstein

2021-09-03 19:11:47 UTC

Agreed. Recordings can be wonderful, but the notion that they can equal
the sound of a live orchestra is folly.

To say that they cannot equal the sound of a live orchestra is not to say that they shouldn't try to capture it as well as they can. Some recordings clearly do this better than others.

Matty

Bob Harper

2021-09-03 19:53:22 UTC

Agreed. Recordings can be wonderful, but the notion that they can equal
the sound of a live orchestra is folly.

To say that they cannot equal the sound of a live orchestra is not to say that they shouldn't try to capture it as well as they can. Some recordings clearly do this better than others.
Matty

Of course. But surely you will agree that the goal--if that is what it
is--is approachable but unreachable.

Bob Harper

Chris from Lafayette

2021-09-03 21:35:59 UTC

Agreed. Recordings can be wonderful, but the notion that they can equal
the sound of a live orchestra is folly.

To say that they cannot equal the sound of a live orchestra is not to say that they shouldn't try to capture it as well as they can. Some recordings clearly do this better than others.
Matty

Of course. But surely you will agree that the goal--if that is what it
is--is approachable but unreachable.
Bob Harper

Yes - but what's the harm in trying to approach this goal ever more closely? I run into people all the time who somehow seem threatened by MCh or Dolby Atmos systems. Why?

raymond....@gmail.com

2021-09-04 00:13:08 UTC

Agreed. Recordings can be wonderful, but the notion that they can equal
the sound of a live orchestra is folly.

To say that they cannot equal the sound of a live orchestra is not to say that they shouldn't try to capture it as well as they can. Some recordings clearly do this better than others.
Matty

Of course. But surely you will agree that the goal--if that is what it
is--is approachable but unreachable.
Bob Harper

Yes - but what's the harm in trying to approach this goal ever more closely? I run into people all the time who somehow seem threatened by MCh or Dolby Atmos systems. Why?

I cannot really understand the desire to recreate a ''live concert hall experience"" when the reality is a studio recorded performance, often edited and patched, using a few different takes. It is true that many recordings are now recorded live, but from concert halls that most listeners will have never experienced.

I can understand the desire to create a better reality, but it is a highly subjective desire. Many many moons ago, in the 70s, my sole exploration into multichannel, rested purely on connecting a difference speaker in series with a variable resistor, between the two main speakers, and placing it behind where I was sat. It livened up the listening experience *considerably* to my ears, but I wasn't expecting to get closer to reality. For me it just simply put me inside a volume of sound, rather than having it stretched out in front of me.

Multichannel for movies, and music videos, adds a lot in my experience. The real problem is that I feel many people get too concerned about trying to achieve a perceived reality. Of course, they are entitled to do so, but it will inevitably cost them big bikkies in the process.

Ray Hall, Taree

Herman

2021-09-04 00:52:26 UTC

Post by Chris from Lafayette
Yes - but what's the harm in trying to approach this goal ever more closely? I run into people all the time who somehow seem threatened by MCh or Dolby Atmos systems. Why?

this seems to capture your world perfectly. You've got a lot of speakers, vroom, vroom, so you're the big boy. Enjoy! Don't forget to mention it a lot!

Bob Harper

2021-09-04 05:40:01 UTC

this seems to capture your world perfectly. You've got a lot of speakers, vroom, vroom, so you're the big boy. Enjoy! Don't forget to mention it a lot!

You dyspepsia is acting up again, Herman. Chris is an audiophile who
happens to like classical music. And he's apparently got the money to
indulge his interests. Why not let him? It's not for you, and it's not
(any longer) for me. The Busch Quartet's Op. 59/2 on Biddulph--recorded
in June 1941--gets us closer to the music than any previous or
subsequent recording, mono, stereo, MCh, or Dolby Atmos. So live and let
live.

Bob Harper

Herman

2021-09-04 05:51:58 UTC

this seems to capture your world perfectly. You've got a lot of speakers, vroom, vroom, so you're the big boy. Enjoy! Don't forget to mention it a lot!

Oh but Bob, I'm not keeping anybody from anything. I was just responding to the suggestion I would feel "threatened" and a bunch of other derogatory comments, like the age-old "what part of [x] don't you understand?".

Bob Harper

2021-09-04 20:49:33 UTC

this seems to capture your world perfectly. You've got a lot of speakers, vroom, vroom, so you're the big boy. Enjoy! Don't forget to mention it a lot!

But need your reply have been so....grumpy? To be honest, a jest would
have been more effective. Something like, "I have only two ears, so two
speakers keep them busy enough :)."

Chris from Lafayette

2021-09-04 21:53:12 UTC

Post by Bob Harper
You dyspepsia is acting up again, Herman. Chris is an audiophile who
happens to like classical music. And he's apparently got the money to
indulge his interests. Why not let him? It's not for you, and it's not
(any longer) for me. The Busch Quartet's Op. 59/2 on Biddulph--recorded
in June 1941--gets us closer to the music than any previous or
subsequent recording, mono, stereo, MCh, or Dolby Atmos. So live and let
live.
Bob Harper

But need your reply have been so....grumpy? To be honest, a jest would
have been more effective. Something like, "I have only two ears, so two
speakers keep them busy enough :)."

And if Herman HAD made that kind of reply, I would have disputed his assertion! ;-)

BTW, I agree with your preference for a jest-type of reply (encouraging sallies of wit, etc.) - although I often forget to take advantage of this technique myself! ;-)

And, gosh darn it, he STILL hasn't told us if he's familiar with Aesop's fable of "The Fox and the Grapes"! ;-)

Herman

2021-09-05 06:29:24 UTC

Post by Chris from Lafayette
And, gosh darn it, he STILL hasn't told us if he's familiar with Aesop's fable of "The Fox and the Grapes"! ;-)

Grow up.

Chris from Lafayette

2021-09-05 17:45:18 UTC

Post by Chris from Lafayette
And, gosh darn it, he STILL hasn't told us if he's familiar with Aesop's fable of "The Fox and the Grapes"! ;-)

Grow up.

C'mon, Herman - weren't we just talking about sallies of wit? That reply does NOT sound like a sally of wit! ;-)

Frank Berger

2021-09-05 15:17:32 UTC

But need your reply have been so....grumpy? To be honest, a jest would
have been more effective. Something like, "I have only two ears, so two
speakers keep them busy enough :)."

And if Herman HAD made that kind of reply, I would have disputed his assertion! ;-)
BTW, I agree with your preference for a jest-type of reply (encouraging sallies of wit, etc.) - although I often forget to take advantage of this technique myself! ;-)
And, gosh darn it, he STILL hasn't told us if he's familiar with Aesop's fable of "The Fox and the Grapes"! ;-)

I'm still waiting for "Hit and Run Herman" to either apologize for accusing Bob and me of "defending racism" or providing an example. One example.

gggg gggg

2021-09-04 05:00:25 UTC

Agreed. Recordings can be wonderful, but the notion that they can equal
the sound of a live orchestra is folly.

To say that they cannot equal the sound of a live orchestra is not to say that they shouldn't try to capture it as well as they can. Some recordings clearly do this better than others.
Matty

Of course. But surely you will agree that the goal--if that is what it
is--is approachable but unreachable.
Bob Harper

Yes - but what's the harm in trying to approach this goal ever more closely? I run into people all the time who somehow seem threatened by MCh or Dolby Atmos systems. Why?

Isn't experiencing reality important or has modernity become all about "...bombard[ing] people with sensation"? No matter how sophisticated a sound system is, could it actually be serving "...as a veil that obscures real experience..."?

Concerning "Fahrenheit 451"(1953):

- Throughout the novel, Bradbury portrays mass media as a veil that obscures real experience and interferes with the characters' ability to think deeply about their lives and societal issues. Bradbury isn't suggesting that media other than books couldn't be enriching and fulfilling. As Faber tells Montag, "It isn't books you need, it's some of the things that once were in books.... The same infinite detail and awareness could be projected through the radios and televisors, but are not." In an interview marking the fiftieth anniversary of the novel's publication, Bradbury indicated that some of his fears about mass media had been realized. "We bombard people with sensation," he said, "That substitutes for thinking."

https://www.litcharts.com/lit/fahrenheit-451/themes/mass-media

gggg gggg

2021-09-04 05:55:55 UTC

Agreed. Recordings can be wonderful, but the notion that they can equal
the sound of a live orchestra is folly.

To say that they cannot equal the sound of a live orchestra is not to say that they shouldn't try to capture it as well as they can. Some recordings clearly do this better than others.
Matty

Of course. But surely you will agree that the goal--if that is what it
is--is approachable but unreachable.
Bob Harper

Yes - but what's the harm in trying to approach this goal ever more closely? I run into people all the time who somehow seem threatened by MCh or Dolby Atmos systems. Why?

Isn't experiencing reality important or has modernity become all about "...bombard[ing] people with sensation"? No matter how sophisticated a sound system is, could it actually be serving "...as a veil that obscures real experience..."?
- Throughout the novel, Bradbury portrays mass media as a veil that obscures real experience and interferes with the characters' ability to think deeply about their lives and societal issues. Bradbury isn't suggesting that media other than books couldn't be enriching and fulfilling. As Faber tells Montag, "It isn't books you need, it's some of the things that once were in books.... The same infinite detail and awareness could be projected through the radios and televisors, but are not." In an interview marking the fiftieth anniversary of the novel's publication, Bradbury indicated that some of his fears about mass media had been realized. "We bombard people with sensation," he said, "That substitutes for thinking."
https://www.litcharts.com/lit/fahrenheit-451/themes/mass-media

Isn't authenticity "... essential for human existence,.."?:

https://harvest.usask.ca/handle/10388/etd-08072008-112806

Dan Koren

2021-09-04 06:29:01 UTC

Post by gggg gggg
https://harvest.usask.ca/handle/10388/etd-08072008-112806

.... especially so for quote bots!

dk

Herman

2021-09-05 13:09:37 UTC

Well, unreachable with current technology. I don't see any reason to conclude that it's unreachable in principle.
Matty

The central misconception at work here is that you're going to add "detail" to what's transmitted and thus get closer to the actual sound produced by a live orchestra, by adding a couple more speakers.
Those details have to come, however, from the recording, the source electronics (CDP or whatever) and the amp. The speakers, given a certain level of make, are relatively immaterial to the reproduction of "detail" - and certainly the number of speakers.

Chris from Lafayette

2021-09-05 17:54:00 UTC

On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 12:06:13 PM UTC+2, Matthew

Well, unreachable with current technology. I don't see any reason
to conclude that it's unreachable in principle.

The central misconception at work here is that you're going to add
"detail" to what's transmitted and thus get closer to the actual
sound produced by a live orchestra, by adding a couple more
speakers. Those details have to come, however, from the recording,
the source electronics (CDP or whatever) and the amp. The speakers,
given a certain level of make, are relatively immaterial to the
reproduction of "detail" - and certainly the number of speakers.

Your central misconception is a misconception. The additional speakers
contribute directional information, not detail.
On a literal level, if those Berlioz Requiem trumpets sound in front of
you, the reproduction is incorrect.

Exactly! (Well, I suppose one could argue that more precise directional information is itself a kind of detail.)

BTW, I was thinking about this thread yesterday, and it seemed to me that a couple of my posts might have come off as bragging. That's certainly not the impression I wanted to convey (what I was really trying to do was keep the mood light), and I apologize if any of them came off that way. We're all, in our various ways, trying to make the same journey to Parnassus!

Frank Berger

2021-09-05 15:44:35 UTC

Post by Matthew Silverstein
To say that they cannot equal the sound of a live orchestra is not to say that they shouldn't try to capture it as well as they can. Some recordings clearly do this better than others.

Of course. But surely you will agree that the goal--if that is what it
is--is approachable but unreachable.

Well, unreachable with current technology. I don't see any reason to conclude that it's unreachable in principle.
Matty

How about being hypnotized into thinking you are listening in a live venue?

Todd M. McComb

2021-09-05 17:30:10 UTC

I don't see any reason to conclude that it's unreachable in
principle.

It could be hard-wired into the brain, I suppose....

Regardless, personally, I want to hear music in rich detail. By
that, I mean the music. I don't care about pretending I'm somewhere
else.

raymond....@gmail.com

2021-09-05 23:36:08 UTC

Post by Todd M. McComb

I don't see any reason to conclude that it's unreachable in
principle.

It could be hard-wired into the brain, I suppose....
Regardless, personally, I want to hear music in rich detail. By
that, I mean the music. I don't care about pretending I'm somewhere
else.

Exactly my thoughts also.

Ray Hall, Taree

Chris from Lafayette

2021-09-06 23:12:43 UTC

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Todd M. McComb
Regardless, personally, I want to hear music in rich detail. By
that, I mean the music. I don't care about pretending I'm somewhere
else.

Exactly my thoughts also.
Ray Hall, Taree

Really, it's not a question of "pretending" you're somewhere else - the question is actually how convincingly the engineers are creating the illusion that the performance is taking place in a real space, preferably an actual concert hall. The fact is, conductors (or any other musicians for that matter) make their interpretive decisions partly based on the acoustic they're playing in. If you really don't care about where the musicians are when you listen to a recording, then I assume you'd be delighted to hear a Bruckner symphony in, say, Helsinki's Finlandia Hall - a notorious location, where the sound falls dead on the floor as soon as it leaves the stage? (At least they've built a newer, superior concert hall there, although I haven't been to Helsinki since they built it - When we went to Helsinki in 2010, the construction of the new Helsinki Music Center was in progress, although the hall didn't open until the following year.)

Anyway, if you take your assertions to an extreme, I assume you both would be happy with a symphony orchestra recorded in an anechoic chamber? Oops - don't answer that question,Todd! With the repertoire you like, maybe an anechoic chamber would suit that music just fine! ;-)

Todd M. McComb

2021-09-06 23:17:43 UTC

Post by Chris from Lafayette
With the repertoire you like, maybe an anechoic chamber would suit
that music just fine! ;-)

Probably the majority of albums I hear were made in a studio. That's
more or less the same.

Chris from Lafayette

2021-09-03 21:17:07 UTC

Post by Chris from Lafayette
Hey, Herman - are you by any chance familiar with Aesop's fable of "The fox and the grapes"? ;-)

The idea that you should position little speakers at the back wall or on the ceiling to approach concert sound is ridiculous. In a concert hall the sound is coming from one place: the stage. There is not a miniature pianist playing an upside-down piano on the ceiling. Yes, sound is reflected from walls in a concert hall, but so is sound in a living room. It's just another way of selling hardware.
Live instruments are totally different.
Even with a marching band you can't yet see, two blocks over, you immediately hear it's live, because of these intangible sounds you'll never hear in a recording.

So, Herman - what part of my statement, "approaching even more closely the virtual dimensions of a concert hall. It's not perfect of course", did you not understand? Your a priori dismissal of Dolby Atmos merely indicates to me that you have no experience with it. Am I wrong?

And, BTW, you can lose overtones at live performances just by sitting in a different seat in the hall. In general, the further back you sit, the more overtones you lose. Also, microphones for recordings can be placed in a more advantageous position than that of even the VERY BEST seat in the house. (Usually, they're closer - which gives you MORE overtones, since the higher frequencies tend to decrease or even disappear based on the square of the distance between the origin of the sound and the reception of it. I highly recommend that you consult an acoustics text book if you want to verify this.)

Nor are you correct in your contention that the sound is just coming from one place - the stage. While that may be true for the direct sound, the total experience of listening in a concert hall includes the REFLECTED sound too - from the ceiling and the walls. It's more than you seem to think - in any case, the REFLECTED sounds in a concert hall are quite a bit more vast and noticeable that the reflected sound from your living room walls. To get an accurate impression of the actual location of the recording, it would be absurd to rely just on the reflections off your living room walls. Surround systems, and, even more, Dolby Atmos both correct for this - it's a main rationale for these systems.

As for your last three sentences, they're just weak assertions apparently backed up by your own incomplete knowledge of acoustics.

Finally, you still haven't told me whether you're familiar with Aesop's fable of "The Fox and the Grapes". ;-)

Chris from Lafayette

2021-09-03 21:23:57 UTC

. . . Recordings can be wonderful, but the notion that they can equal
the sound of a live orchestra is folly. I once took a friend who had far
better equipment than I to a concert that featured the Vaughan Williams
'London' Symphony. At the end of, I think, the first movement there's a
tremendous thump on the bass drum. We were sitting well up in the
balcony (the best seats in Portland's hall are, ironically, the
cheapest) and felt the pressure wave as it hit our chests. He looked at
me and said, "No sound system can do that." I think it was Peter Walker
who said that it's impossible to get the Philharmonia in your living
room--nor would you want to.
Bob Harper

Bob - See my reply to Herman on this point. In any case, I think your friend is wrong - I've certainly experienced pressure waves listening to my system similar to what I hear in, say, Davies Hall when the SFSO or a visiting orchestra plays there. Regarding the Peter Walker statement, sure, we're not there yet - but we can get closer and closer with these various new systems. And in any case, what we're really after is the credible illusion, not the reality.

gggg gggg

2021-09-04 06:44:20 UTC

Post by Chris from Lafayette
Hey, Herman - are you by any chance familiar with Aesop's fable of "The fox and the grapes"? ;-)

Isn't authenticity "... essential for human existence[?]...[and isn't it] problematized by technologies which make possible increasingly perfect reproductions and replications, as well as by the effect these technologies have on the human subject[?} Furthermore, these technologies are linked to the economic mode of advanced consumerism.

https://harvest.usask.ca/handle/10388/etd-08072008-112806

gggg gggg

2021-09-05 04:11:33 UTC

Post by Chris from Lafayette
Hey, Herman - are you by any chance familiar with Aesop's fable of "The fox and the grapes"? ;-)

Isn't authenticity "... essential for human existence[?]...[and isn't it] problematized by technologies which make possible increasingly perfect reproductions and replications, as well as by the effect these technologies have on the human subject[?} Furthermore, [aren't] these technologies...linked to the economic mode of advanced consumerism[?]

https://harvest.usask.ca/handle/10388/etd-08072008-112806

Mandryka

2021-09-05 17:29:22 UTC

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Post by Malcolm Y
who for the quintet in C by Schubert?

How about a subcategory for 21st century performances?
I like Belcea. Ebene has great, high-def sound but the interpretation
doesn't stay with me....

Tetzlaff and friends played it in London ages ago now, and I've just seen from their facebook page that they recorded it in 2020, but so far not released.

Todd M. McComb

2021-09-05 17:32:36 UTC

Post by Mandryka
Tetzlaff and friends played it in London ages ago now, and I've
just seen from their facebook page that they recorded it in 2020,
but so far not released.

Heh. I did notice this.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8938448--schubert-schwanengesang-string-quintet

Mandryka

2021-09-05 17:58:34 UTC

Post by Mandryka
Tetzlaff and friends played it in London ages ago now, and I've
just seen from their facebook page that they recorded it in 2020,
but so far not released.

Heh. I did notice this.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8938448--schubert-schwanengesang-string-quintet

Well done! That’s something to look forward to.

Todd M. McComb

2021-10-11 23:17:28 UTC