Old southbound Northern Line platform, Bank

A repeat of what happened at Angel and London Bridge about 20yrs ago.

Yes, and one or two others as well, I think. Euston?

Graeme Wall

2021-12-07 17:54:58 UTC

A repeat of what happened at Angel and London Bridge about 20yrs ago.

Yes, and one or two others as well, I think. Euston?

Isn't there some talk of (eventually) replacing the narrow platforms at
Clapham North and so on?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry

2021-12-07 18:09:22 UTC

Post by Graeme Wall

A repeat of what happened at Angel and London Bridge about 20yrs ago.

Yes, and one or two others as well, I think. Euston?

Isn't there some talk of (eventually) replacing the narrow platforms at
Clapham North and so on?

There has long been an ambition to replace all the island platforms, but
TfL is a bit strapped for cash this week.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2021-12-07 23:19:54 UTC

Post by Graeme Wall

A repeat of what happened at Angel and London Bridge about 20yrs ago.

Yes, and one or two others as well, I think. Euston?

Isn't there some talk of (eventually) replacing the narrow platforms at
Clapham North and so on?

There has long been an ambition to replace all the island platforms, but
TfL is a bit strapped for cash this week.

Yes, I don't think there are any current plans to replace the few remaining
CSLR island platforms. TfL has much higher priority unfunded projects.

Roland Perry

2021-12-07 18:07:50 UTC

A repeat of what happened at Angel and London Bridge about 20yrs ago.

Yes, and one or two others as well, I think. Euston?

Maybe, I don't recall.

But I was on a behind-the-scenes tours taking in both Angel and London
Bridge, soon after their conversion. The latter location included
stretches of the disused C&SLR alignment all the way from where the 1900
re-alignment diverges south of London Bridge, the disused platforms
above the 1900 re-alignment, and to the edge of the river where the
tunnels to King William St were sealed off in WW2 as a flood prevention
exercise.

That tour could not be repeated today because the Jubilee Line cuts
across the old C&SLR station at London Bridge.

And I'm not sure if the old London Bridge station building above is
still in existence (or even at Angel, where the rebuilding involved
moving the lift-accessed entrance a few hundred yards round the block
to a record-breaking-escalator accessed entrance).

During that tour we also went to the Northern Line control centre
somewhere near Euston.

It's shame it was a little before digital photography or I'd have lots
of pictures.

Ah, here's the original Angel Station: <https://goo.gl/maps/x62JDRywxN1A
bUus6> and London Bridge: <https://goo.gl/maps/wiEGjT1iPRoAnMFw8>
obliterated soon after then, by redevelopment.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2021-12-07 23:28:49 UTC

A repeat of what happened at Angel and London Bridge about 20yrs ago.

Yes, and one or two others as well, I think. Euston?

Maybe, I don't recall.
But I was on a behind-the-scenes tours taking in both Angel and London
Bridge, soon after their conversion. The latter location included
stretches of the disused C&SLR alignment all the way from where the 1900
re-alignment diverges south of London Bridge, the disused platforms
above the 1900 re-alignment, and to the edge of the river where the
tunnels to King William St were sealed off in WW2 as a flood prevention
exercise.
That tour could not be repeated today because the Jubilee Line cuts
across the old C&SLR station at London Bridge.
And I'm not sure if the old London Bridge station building above is
still in existence (or even at Angel, where the rebuilding involved
moving the lift-accessed entrance a few hundred yards round the block
to a record-breaking-escalator accessed entrance).
During that tour we also went to the Northern Line control centre
somewhere near Euston.
It's shame it was a little before digital photography or I'd have lots
of pictures.
Ah, here's the original Angel Station: <https://goo.gl/maps/x62JDRywxN1A
bUus6> and London Bridge: <https://goo.gl/maps/wiEGjT1iPRoAnMFw8>
obliterated soon after then, by redevelopment.

I've never worked out why the original CSLR switched to right-hand running
for the section from London Bridge to the original terminus at King Willam
Street, which continues today past Bank. I suppose it must have had
something to do with the tight curves on the climb into King Willam St.

I did a visit to the latter a few decades ago. I think we walked under the
river through the stalagmites.

Recliner

2021-12-08 09:58:55 UTC

A repeat of what happened at Angel and London Bridge about 20yrs ago.

Yes, and one or two others as well, I think. Euston?

Maybe, I don't recall.
But I was on a behind-the-scenes tours taking in both Angel and London
Bridge, soon after their conversion. The latter location included
stretches of the disused C&SLR alignment all the way from where the 1900
re-alignment diverges south of London Bridge, the disused platforms
above the 1900 re-alignment, and to the edge of the river where the
tunnels to King William St were sealed off in WW2 as a flood prevention
exercise.
That tour could not be repeated today because the Jubilee Line cuts
across the old C&SLR station at London Bridge.
And I'm not sure if the old London Bridge station building above is
still in existence (or even at Angel, where the rebuilding involved
moving the lift-accessed entrance a few hundred yards round the block
to a record-breaking-escalator accessed entrance).
During that tour we also went to the Northern Line control centre
somewhere near Euston.
It's shame it was a little before digital photography or I'd have lots
of pictures.
Ah, here's the original Angel Station: <https://goo.gl/maps/x62JDRywxN1A
bUus6> and London Bridge: <https://goo.gl/maps/wiEGjT1iPRoAnMFw8>
obliterated soon after then, by redevelopment.

I've never worked out why the original CSLR switched to right-hand running
for the section from London Bridge to the original terminus at King Willam
Street,

It switches over under the junction between Borough Rd and Newington
Causeway, just north of E&C Station.

Post by Recliner
which continues today past Bank.

That's the new alignment from a few hundred yards south of the current
London Bridge Station (as built, the C&SLR didn't originally have a
station at LB).

Well, new in 1900! But I wonder why they retained right-hand running as far
as Bank when they closed the King William St terminus section, replacing it
with the new route through Bank?

Post by Recliner
I suppose it must have had
something to do with the tight curves on the climb into King Willam St.

I'm not sure why, because KWS was built with a single line (and a
platform either side) the two tunnels converging under Old Swan Pier
just off the north bank of the river, at the end of Swan Lane; the last
remnants of which demolished as recently as 2012.
At Stockwell they had two tracks and a fairly conventional scissors
crossing.

I wonder if the requirement to follow the street plan above forced the
right-hand running when the London Bridge to Bank section replaced the old
route?

Post by Recliner
I did a visit to the latter a few decades ago. I think we walked under the
river through the stalagmites.

There were visits which I think were something to do with the occupants
of the building now on the site of KWS station.

The modern building occupants had to let us in, but they didn't organise or
run the tour. That was done by LU or the Museum. I booked through LURS.

The tunnels under the
Thames were only sealed off at the south bank, because the flooding
threat was to the 'new' London Bridge Station, which is about 20ft
underneath the original one.

Yes, there's no connection to the current LU network from the King William
St station and tunnels, so it doesn't matter if they flood. There were WWII
posters in the station presumably dating from its use as a bomb shelter
(when it had already been closed 40 years!). I wish I could find the photos
I took on the tour, but they wouldn't be a patch on what's possible with a
modern digital camera.

Roland Perry

2021-12-09 05:57:36 UTC

A repeat of what happened at Angel and London Bridge about 20yrs ago.

Yes, and one or two others as well, I think. Euston?

Maybe, I don't recall.
But I was on a behind-the-scenes tours taking in both Angel and London
Bridge, soon after their conversion. The latter location included
stretches of the disused C&SLR alignment all the way from where the 1900
re-alignment diverges south of London Bridge, the disused platforms
above the 1900 re-alignment, and to the edge of the river where the
tunnels to King William St were sealed off in WW2 as a flood prevention
exercise.
That tour could not be repeated today because the Jubilee Line cuts
across the old C&SLR station at London Bridge.
And I'm not sure if the old London Bridge station building above is
still in existence (or even at Angel, where the rebuilding involved
moving the lift-accessed entrance a few hundred yards round the block
to a record-breaking-escalator accessed entrance).
During that tour we also went to the Northern Line control centre
somewhere near Euston.
It's shame it was a little before digital photography or I'd have lots
of pictures.
Ah, here's the original Angel Station: <https://goo.gl/maps/x62JDRywxN1A
bUus6> and London Bridge: <https://goo.gl/maps/wiEGjT1iPRoAnMFw8>
obliterated soon after then, by redevelopment.

I've never worked out why the original CSLR switched to right-hand running
for the section from London Bridge to the original terminus at King Willam
Street,

It switches over under the junction between Borough Rd and Newington
Causeway, just north of E&C Station.

Post by Recliner
which continues today past Bank.

That's the new alignment from a few hundred yards south of the current
London Bridge Station (as built, the C&SLR didn't originally have a
station at LB).

Well, new in 1900! But I wonder why they retained right-hand running as far
as Bank when they closed the King William St terminus section, replacing it
with the new route through Bank?

The right-hand running is initially inherited from the KWS formation as
a result of the line to Bank breaking away and wrapping underneath about
half way between Borough and London Bridge. It's possible [see below] to
walk along the old KWS tunnels south from London Bridge Station to the
point where the tunnels diverge, and see the Northern Line trains
rushing past...

Post by Recliner
I suppose it must have had
something to do with the tight curves on the climb into King Willam St.

I wonder if the requirement to follow the street plan above forced the
right-hand running when the London Bridge to Bank section replaced the old
route?

...The Northern Line tunnels then cross the river a little east of the
bridge (rather than west), as far as I'm aware to miss the foundations
of the bridge, before rejoining King William Street where it crosses
Lower Thames Street. Presumably they didn't want to flip the tunnels
over, while under the river or in the short distance north of the river
before Bank Station.

Post by Recliner
I did a visit to the latter a few decades ago. I think we walked under the
river through the stalagmites.

There were visits which I think were something to do with the occupants
of the building now on the site of KWS station.

The modern building occupants had to let us in, but they didn't organise or
run the tour. That was done by LU or the Museum. I booked through LURS.

We were taken on a private tour by someone in senior middle-management
of the line, who had the keys and the historical information. We didn't
question his authority to do so, and it didn't feel completely
"unofficial". The tour also included (possibly as its main component)
the new Angel Station, and the old Angel Station building, as well as
the control room at Euston.

The tunnels under the Thames were only sealed off at the south bank,
because the flooding threat was to the 'new' London Bridge Station,
which is about 20ft underneath the original one.

I think the bomb shelters on that stretch of the line were accessed from
separate street entrances, rather than the tube stations. But I'd have
to confirm that.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2021-12-09 07:59:21 UTC

A repeat of what happened at Angel and London Bridge about 20yrs ago.

Yes, and one or two others as well, I think. Euston?

Maybe, I don't recall.
But I was on a behind-the-scenes tours taking in both Angel and London
Bridge, soon after their conversion. The latter location included
stretches of the disused C&SLR alignment all the way from where the 1900
re-alignment diverges south of London Bridge, the disused platforms
above the 1900 re-alignment, and to the edge of the river where the
tunnels to King William St were sealed off in WW2 as a flood prevention
exercise.
That tour could not be repeated today because the Jubilee Line cuts
across the old C&SLR station at London Bridge.
And I'm not sure if the old London Bridge station building above is
still in existence (or even at Angel, where the rebuilding involved
moving the lift-accessed entrance a few hundred yards round the block
to a record-breaking-escalator accessed entrance).
During that tour we also went to the Northern Line control centre
somewhere near Euston.
It's shame it was a little before digital photography or I'd have lots
of pictures.
Ah, here's the original Angel Station: <https://goo.gl/maps/x62JDRywxN1A
bUus6> and London Bridge: <https://goo.gl/maps/wiEGjT1iPRoAnMFw8>
obliterated soon after then, by redevelopment.

I've never worked out why the original CSLR switched to right-hand running
for the section from London Bridge to the original terminus at King Willam
Street,

It switches over under the junction between Borough Rd and Newington
Causeway, just north of E&C Station.

Post by Recliner
which continues today past Bank.

That's the new alignment from a few hundred yards south of the current
London Bridge Station (as built, the C&SLR didn't originally have a
station at LB).

Well, new in 1900! But I wonder why they retained right-hand running as far
as Bank when they closed the King William St terminus section, replacing it
with the new route through Bank?

Post by Recliner
I suppose it must have had
something to do with the tight curves on the climb into King Willam St.

I wonder if the requirement to follow the street plan above forced the
right-hand running when the London Bridge to Bank section replaced the old
route?

But I still can't figure out why the CSLR switched to right-hand running
north of Borough? There's no obvious reason apparent from the map.

Post by Recliner
I did a visit to the latter a few decades ago. I think we walked under the
river through the stalagmites.

There were visits which I think were something to do with the occupants
of the building now on the site of KWS station.

The modern building occupants had to let us in, but they didn't organise or
run the tour. That was done by LU or the Museum. I booked through LURS.

The tunnels under the Thames were only sealed off at the south bank,
because the flooding threat was to the 'new' London Bridge Station,
which is about 20ft underneath the original one.

I think the bomb shelters on that stretch of the line were accessed from
separate street entrances, rather than the tube stations. But I'd have
to confirm that.

I don't know. Obviously, the station was long disused by WWII, and the old
station entrance would have been lost.

Roland Perry

2021-12-09 08:36:28 UTC

The Bank branch of the Northern Line will shortly be closing for a few
months, to allow the commissioning of the new, wider southbound
platform, built slightly to the west of the narrow old platform, which
dates from 1900. The old platform will become a concourse between the
platforms. There are four new passages that will connect the new
platform to the old platform tunnel, which have already been built.
I took some pictures today of that platform as it exists just before
closure.
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157720267253360>

A repeat of what happened at Angel and London Bridge about 20yrs ago.

Yes, and one or two others as well, I think. Euston?

Maybe, I don't recall.
But I was on a behind-the-scenes tours taking in both Angel and London
Bridge, soon after their conversion. The latter location included
stretches of the disused C&SLR alignment all the way from where the 1900
re-alignment diverges south of London Bridge, the disused platforms
above the 1900 re-alignment, and to the edge of the river where the
tunnels to King William St were sealed off in WW2 as a flood prevention
exercise.
That tour could not be repeated today because the Jubilee Line cuts
across the old C&SLR station at London Bridge.
And I'm not sure if the old London Bridge station building above is
still in existence (or even at Angel, where the rebuilding involved
moving the lift-accessed entrance a few hundred yards round the block
to a record-breaking-escalator accessed entrance).
During that tour we also went to the Northern Line control centre
somewhere near Euston.
It's shame it was a little before digital photography or I'd have lots
of pictures.
Ah, here's the original Angel Station: <https://goo.gl/maps/x62JDRywxN1A
bUus6> and London Bridge: <https://goo.gl/maps/wiEGjT1iPRoAnMFw8>
obliterated soon after then, by redevelopment.

I've never worked out why the original CSLR switched to right-hand running
for the section from London Bridge to the original terminus at King Willam
Street,

It switches over under the junction between Borough Rd and Newington
Causeway, just north of E&C Station.

Post by Recliner
which continues today past Bank.

That's the new alignment from a few hundred yards south of the current
London Bridge Station (as built, the C&SLR didn't originally have a
station at LB).

Well, new in 1900! But I wonder why they retained right-hand running as far
as Bank when they closed the King William St terminus section, replacing it
with the new route through Bank?

Post by Recliner
I suppose it must have had
something to do with the tight curves on the climb into King Willam St.

I wonder if the requirement to follow the street plan above forced the
right-hand running when the London Bridge to Bank section replaced the old
route?

But I still can't figure out why the CSLR switched to right-hand running
north of Borough?

It's "north of E&C".

Post by Recliner
There's no obvious reason apparent from the map.

Given that KWS had just one track, and London Bridge didn't have a
station, all I can think is that it was something vital to do with the
layout of Borough Station.

In particular wanting the Down Line to be adjacent to the stairs (which
it was at the other intermediate stations). That would facilitate the
more rapid dispersal of arriving passengers, who would be much less
likely ever to be getting off a northbound train.

Like Kennington, there's no sign of an independent passage to the
opposite tracks, so perhaps people boarding for KWS had to wait for the
Down line to be clear, and cross tramway-style to the island Up
platform.

Post by Recliner
I did a visit to the latter a few decades ago. I think we walked under the
river through the stalagmites.

There were visits which I think were something to do with the occupants
of the building now on the site of KWS station.

The modern building occupants had to let us in, but they didn't organise or
run the tour. That was done by LU or the Museum. I booked through LURS.

The tunnels under the Thames were only sealed off at the south bank,
because the flooding threat was to the 'new' London Bridge Station,
which is about 20ft underneath the original one.

I think the bomb shelters on that stretch of the line were accessed from
separate street entrances, rather than the tube stations. But I'd have
to confirm that.

I don't know. Obviously, the station was long disused by WWII, and the old
station entrance would have been lost.

I was thinking more about the section south of the Thames.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2021-12-09 13:46:39 UTC

The Bank branch of the Northern Line will shortly be closing for a few
months, to allow the commissioning of the new, wider southbound
platform, built slightly to the west of the narrow old platform, which
dates from 1900. The old platform will become a concourse between the
platforms. There are four new passages that will connect the new
platform to the old platform tunnel, which have already been built.
I took some pictures today of that platform as it exists just before
closure.
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157720267253360>

A repeat of what happened at Angel and London Bridge about 20yrs ago.

Yes, and one or two others as well, I think. Euston?

Maybe, I don't recall.
But I was on a behind-the-scenes tours taking in both Angel and London
Bridge, soon after their conversion. The latter location included
stretches of the disused C&SLR alignment all the way from where the 1900
re-alignment diverges south of London Bridge, the disused platforms
above the 1900 re-alignment, and to the edge of the river where the
tunnels to King William St were sealed off in WW2 as a flood prevention
exercise.
That tour could not be repeated today because the Jubilee Line cuts
across the old C&SLR station at London Bridge.
And I'm not sure if the old London Bridge station building above is
still in existence (or even at Angel, where the rebuilding involved
moving the lift-accessed entrance a few hundred yards round the block
to a record-breaking-escalator accessed entrance).
During that tour we also went to the Northern Line control centre
somewhere near Euston.
It's shame it was a little before digital photography or I'd have lots
of pictures.
Ah, here's the original Angel Station: <https://goo.gl/maps/x62JDRywxN1A
bUus6> and London Bridge: <https://goo.gl/maps/wiEGjT1iPRoAnMFw8>
obliterated soon after then, by redevelopment.

I've never worked out why the original CSLR switched to right-hand running
for the section from London Bridge to the original terminus at King Willam
Street,

It switches over under the junction between Borough Rd and Newington
Causeway, just north of E&C Station.

Post by Recliner
which continues today past Bank.

That's the new alignment from a few hundred yards south of the current
London Bridge Station (as built, the C&SLR didn't originally have a
station at LB).

Well, new in 1900! But I wonder why they retained right-hand running as far
as Bank when they closed the King William St terminus section, replacing it
with the new route through Bank?

Post by Recliner
I suppose it must have had
something to do with the tight curves on the climb into King Willam St.

I wonder if the requirement to follow the street plan above forced the
right-hand running when the London Bridge to Bank section replaced the old
route?

But I still can't figure out why the CSLR switched to right-hand running
north of Borough?

It's "north of E&C".

Yes, of course you're right.

Post by Recliner
There's no obvious reason apparent from the map.

Well, I don't have a better explanation!

Post by Roland Perry
Like Kennington, there's no sign of an independent passage to the
opposite tracks, so perhaps people boarding for KWS had to wait for the
Down line to be clear, and cross tramway-style to the island Up
platform.

I've never heard that

Recliner

2021-12-09 15:56:44 UTC

The Bank branch of the Northern Line will shortly be closing
for a few
months, to allow the commissioning of the new, wider southbound
platform, built slightly to the west of the narrow old
platform, which
dates from 1900. The old platform will become a concourse between the
platforms. There are four new passages that will connect the new
platform to the old platform tunnel, which have already been built.
I took some pictures today of that platform as it exists just before
closure.
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157720267253360>

A repeat of what happened at Angel and London Bridge about 20yrs ago.

Yes, and one or two others as well, I think. Euston?

Maybe, I don't recall.
But I was on a behind-the-scenes tours taking in both Angel and
London Bridge, soon after their conversion. The latter location
included stretches of the disused C&SLR alignment all the way
from where the 1900 re-alignment diverges south of London
Bridge, the disused platforms above the 1900 re-alignment, and
to the edge of the river where the tunnels to King William St
were sealed off in WW2 as a flood prevention exercise.
That tour could not be repeated today because the Jubilee Line cuts
across the old C&SLR station at London Bridge.
And I'm not sure if the old London Bridge station building above is
still in existence (or even at Angel, where the rebuilding involved
moving the lift-accessed entrance a few hundred yards round the block
to a record-breaking-escalator accessed entrance).
During that tour we also went to the Northern Line control centre
somewhere near Euston.
It's shame it was a little before digital photography or I'd have lots
of pictures.
Ah, here's the original Angel Station: <https://goo.gl/maps/x62
JDRywxN1A bUus6> and London Bridge: <https://goo.gl/maps/wiEGjT
1iPRoAnMFw8> obliterated soon after then, by redevelopment.

I've never worked out why the original CSLR switched to right-
hand running for the section from London Bridge to the original
terminus at King Willam Street,

It switches over under the junction between Borough Rd and Newington
Causeway, just north of E&C Station.

Post by Recliner
which continues today past Bank.

That's the new alignment from a few hundred yards south of the current
London Bridge Station (as built, the C&SLR didn't originally have a
station at LB).

Well, new in 1900! But I wonder why they retained right-hand running as far
as Bank when they closed the King William St terminus section, replacing it
with the new route through Bank?

Post by Recliner
I suppose it must have had
something to do with the tight curves on the climb into King Willam St.

I wonder if the requirement to follow the street plan above forced the
right-hand running when the London Bridge to Bank section replaced the old
route?

But I still can't figure out why the CSLR switched to right-hand running
north of Borough?

It's "north of E&C".

Yes, of course you're right.

Post by Recliner
There's no obvious reason apparent from the map.

Well, I don't have a better explanation!

I've never heard that

I've had the maps for ages, but only today looked at them in sufficient
detail to come up with this explanation.
Wikipedia has the same map, although my source was independent.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:City_and_South_London_Railway_Engineering_
Drawing.jpg>

It's very curious that what was probably always expected to be a busy
station would only have direct access from the surface to one platform,
while all the other stations had direct access to both platforms. Why
couldn't they have had one of their island platforms (in one or two
tunnels) with shared stairs/lifts?

Recliner

2021-12-10 14:37:42 UTC

Dec 2021,

15:54:32 on

The Bank branch of the Northern Line will shortly be
for a few months, to allow the commissioning of the new,
wider southbound platform, built slightly to the west of
platform, which dates from 1900. The old platform will
become a concourse between the platforms. There are four
new passages that will connect the new platform to the old
already been built.
I took some pictures today of that platform as it exists
closure.
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157720267253360>

A repeat of what happened at Angel and London Bridge about

Yes, and one or two others as well, I think. Euston?

Maybe, I don't recall.
But I was on a behind-the-scenes tours taking in both Angel and
London Bridge, soon after their conversion. The latter location
included stretches of the disused C&SLR alignment all the way
from where the 1900 re-alignment diverges south of London
Bridge, the disused platforms above the 1900 re-alignment, and
to the edge of the river where the tunnels to King William St
were sealed off in WW2 as a flood prevention exercise.
That tour could not be repeated today because the Jubilee Line cuts
across the old C&SLR station at London Bridge.
And I'm not sure if the old London Bridge station building above is
still in existence (or even at Angel, where the rebuilding involved
moving the lift-accessed entrance a few hundred yards round the block
to a record-breaking-escalator accessed entrance).
During that tour we also went to the Northern Line control centre
somewhere near Euston.
It's shame it was a little before digital photography or I'd
of pictures.
Ah, here's the original Angel Station: <https://goo.gl/maps/x62
JDRywxN1A bUus6> and London Bridge: <https://goo.gl/maps/wiEGjT
1iPRoAnMFw8> obliterated soon after then, by redevelopment.

I've never worked out why the original CSLR switched to right-
hand running for the section from London Bridge to the original
terminus at King Willam Street,

It switches over under the junction between Borough Rd and Newington
Causeway, just north of E&C Station.

Post by Recliner
which continues today past Bank.

That's the new alignment from a few hundred yards south of the current
London Bridge Station (as built, the C&SLR didn't originally have a
station at LB).

Well, new in 1900! But I wonder why they retained right-hand
running as far as Bank when they closed the King William St
terminus section, replacing it with the new route through Bank?

Post by Recliner
I suppose it must have had something to do with the tight
curves on the climb into King Willam St.

I wonder if the requirement to follow the street plan above forced the
right-hand running when the London Bridge to Bank section replaced the old
route?

But I still can't figure out why the CSLR switched to right-hand running
north of Borough?

It's "north of E&C".

Yes, of course you're right.

Post by Recliner
There's no obvious reason apparent from the map.

Well, I don't have a better explanation!

I've never heard that

One of the others only has access at one side. I mentioned that already.

Do we have any evidence that passengers had to cross the electrified track? Surely contemporary reports would have
mentioned it?

The logical conclusion is they expected those to be the two least-used
stations.

Post by Recliner
Why couldn't they have had one of their island platforms (in one or two
tunnels) with shared stairs/lifts?

It's perfectly clear from the drawings, that wasn't the kind of layout
they were considering. Maybe that style gained more traction later,
after experience on the original section of line.

Roland Perry

2021-12-10 17:14:42 UTC

I've never heard that

One of the others only has access at one side. I mentioned that already.

Do we have any evidence that passengers had to cross the electrified
track? Surely contemporary reports would have mentioned it?

We have the contemporary illustration, on the Wikipedia page. Which
shows the platform at rail level, so that's a start.

and this of Stockwell (the terminus, so doesn't help with the access
issue) <https://www.odysseytraveller.com/articles/underground-london/>

We also have the drawings which show no passageway to the 'far side'
(unlike several other stations), and they also appear to show an island
platform. On the other hand even the two intermediate stations with a
separate access appear to cross the line on the level, to a platform the
other side. Both times the "crossing" being off the end of the nearside
platform.

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that in all cases the tracks
are crossed on the level over a section that has a break in the
conductor rail(s).

This picture shows the track, and perhaps the conductors are that pair
in the centre? <https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-
online/photographs/item/1998-84917>

For completeness, here is the single-track KWS station: <https://www.ltm
useum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs/item/1999-3638>

The logical conclusion is they expected those to be the two least-used
stations.

Post by Recliner
Why couldn't they have had one of their island platforms (in one or two
tunnels) with shared stairs/lifts?

It's perfectly clear from the drawings, that wasn't the kind of layout
they were considering. Maybe that style gained more traction later,
after experience on the original section of line.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2021-12-10 21:34:39 UTC

I've never heard that

One of the others only has access at one side. I mentioned that already.

Do we have any evidence that passengers had to cross the electrified
track? Surely contemporary reports would have mentioned it?

We have the contemporary illustration, on the Wikipedia page. Which
shows the platform at rail level, so that's a start.
and this of Stockwell (the terminus, so doesn't help with the access
issue) <https://www.odysseytraveller.com/articles/underground-london/>
We also have the drawings which show no passageway to the 'far side'
(unlike several other stations), and they also appear to show an island
platform. On the other hand even the two intermediate stations with a
separate access appear to cross the line on the level, to a platform the
other side. Both times the "crossing" being off the end of the nearside
platform.
It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that in all cases the tracks
are crossed on the level over a section that has a break in the
conductor rail(s).

Aha, I think I've found the answer:

Although little of the original surface building remains at Borough, it
originally bore a close resemblance to Kennington station. These
similarities extended to the layout below ground, although here it is
Kennington that no longer retains the original design. Borough station has
level access to the northbound platform from the lifts, making this
platform accessible to those with mobility restrictions. The southbound
platform is a floor lower down, accessible only by narrow stairs; the
original architectural finishes to this have been obscured by modern
station infrastructure, but the original appearance would have been
comparable with those still visible on the southbound platform at
Kennington.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borough_tube_station

So there was no requirement to walk across the electrified tracks. The
other (northbound) track was at a lower level, accessed by narrow stairs.
But you're right that the layout favoured the southbound line, probably for
the reason you suggested.

Roland Perry

2021-12-11 07:02:29 UTC

I've never heard that

One of the others only has access at one side. I mentioned that already.

Do we have any evidence that passengers had to cross the electrified
track? Surely contemporary reports would have mentioned it?

We have the contemporary illustration, on the Wikipedia page. Which
shows the platform at rail level, so that's a start.
and this of Stockwell (the terminus, so doesn't help with the access
issue) <https://www.odysseytraveller.com/articles/underground-london/>
We also have the drawings which show no passageway to the 'far side'
(unlike several other stations), and they also appear to show an island
platform. On the other hand even the two intermediate stations with a
separate access appear to cross the line on the level, to a platform the
other side. Both times the "crossing" being off the end of the nearside
platform.
It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that in all cases the tracks
are crossed on the level over a section that has a break in the
conductor rail(s).

Although little of the original surface building remains at Borough, it
originally bore a close resemblance to Kennington station. These
similarities extended to the layout below ground, although here it is
Kennington that no longer retains the original design. Borough station has
level access to the northbound platform from the lifts, making this
platform accessible to those with mobility restrictions. The southbound
platform is a floor lower down, accessible only by narrow stairs; the
original architectural finishes to this have been obscured by modern
station infrastructure, but the original appearance would have been
comparable with those still visible on the southbound platform at
Kennington.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borough_tube_station
So there was no requirement to walk across the electrified tracks. The
other (northbound) track was at a lower level, accessed by narrow stairs.
But you're right that the layout favoured the southbound line, probably for
the reason you suggested.

While I agree with this outcome, it fails to explain the need for
crossing the lines over. Indeed, if on top of each other at Borough,
they are only half-crossed-over by then, which makes most of the maps
wrong.

Meanwhile: "the original tunnels passed close enough to the location of
London Bridge station for them to still be visible through a
vent, immediately above the middle of the current southbound
platform there.

On my tour, we looked down that vent, to the platform (and pax) below.

And: "During the Second World War, parts of the disused tunnels between
Borough and the south side of the River Thames [**] were adapted
into a large public air-raid shelter by Southwark Borough Council.
The shelter had six entrances along Borough High Street"

The additional entrances I mentioned.

[**] Where it was sealed, and that was as far north as we were able to
walk

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2021-12-11 11:21:40 UTC

I've never heard that

One of the others only has access at one side. I mentioned that already.

Do we have any evidence that passengers had to cross the electrified
track? Surely contemporary reports would have mentioned it?

We have the contemporary illustration, on the Wikipedia page. Which
shows the platform at rail level, so that's a start.
and this of Stockwell (the terminus, so doesn't help with the access
issue) <https://www.odysseytraveller.com/articles/underground-london/>
We also have the drawings which show no passageway to the 'far side'
(unlike several other stations), and they also appear to show an island
platform. On the other hand even the two intermediate stations with a
separate access appear to cross the line on the level, to a platform the
other side. Both times the "crossing" being off the end of the nearside
platform.
It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that in all cases the tracks
are crossed on the level over a section that has a break in the
conductor rail(s).

I suppose that if they were almost above each other at Borough, it was
easier to continue the corkscrew trajectory of the southbound tunnel, to
end up with right-hand running by the final stretch to KWS.

Post by Roland Perry
Meanwhile: "the original tunnels passed close enough to the location of
London Bridge station for them to still be visible through a
vent, immediately above the middle of the current southbound
platform there.
On my tour, we looked down that vent, to the platform (and pax) below.
And: "During the Second World War, parts of the disused tunnels between
Borough and the south side of the River Thames [**] were adapted
into a large public air-raid shelter by Southwark Borough Council.
The shelter had six entrances along Borough High Street"
The additional entrances I mentioned.
[**] Where it was sealed, and that was as far north as we were able to
walk

D A Stocks

2021-12-10 17:29:10 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
And I'm not sure if the old London Bridge station building above is
still in existence (or even at Angel, where the rebuilding involved
moving the lift-accessed entrance a few hundred yards round the block
to a record-breaking-escalator accessed entrance).

Looking at Google Streetview I think it's vanished under the new Borough
Market viaduct.

Post by Recliner
I've never worked out why the original CSLR switched to right-hand running
for the section from London Bridge to the original terminus at King Willam
Street,

It switches over under the junction between Borough Rd and Newington
Causeway, just north of E&C Station.

Post by Recliner
which continues today past Bank.

That's the new alignment from a few hundred yards south of the current
London Bridge Station (as built, the C&SLR didn't originally have a
station at LB).

Well, new in 1900! But I wonder why they retained right-hand running as far
as Bank when they closed the King William St terminus section, replacing it
with the new route through Bank?

Post by Recliner
I wonder if the requirement to follow the street plan above forced the
right-hand running when the London Bridge to Bank section replaced the old
route?

ISTR the other constraint under the river was the need to avoid the
foundations of the medieval London Bridge, which is one reason why the new
platform is southbound rather than northbound.

Post by Recliner
But I still can't figure out why the CSLR switched to right-hand running
north of Borough?

It's "north of E&C".

Post by Recliner
There's no obvious reason apparent from the map.

Given that KWS had just one track, and London Bridge didn't have a
station, all I can think is that it was something vital to do with the
layout of Borough Station.

Borough is unusual in that the platforms are pretty much on top of each
other. It probably had to fit under Borough High Street.

When I was commuting to Moorgate in the late 1980s it was often not possible
to get onto the northbound platform at London Bridge so I would catch the
first southbound train to Borough and change to a northbound train there.

cartometro gives a pretty good idea of the various layouts:
<http://cartometro.com/cartes/metro-tram-london/?r=cmf>

Post by Roland Perry
In particular wanting the Down Line to be adjacent to the stairs (which it
was at the other intermediate stations). That would facilitate the more
rapid dispersal of arriving passengers, who would be much less likely ever
to be getting off a northbound train.
Like Kennington, there's no sign of an independent passage to the opposite
tracks, so perhaps people boarding for KWS had to wait for the Down line
to be clear, and cross tramway-style to the island Up platform.

Post by Recliner
I did a visit to the latter a few decades ago. I think we walked under the
river through the stalagmites.

There were visits which I think were something to do with the occupants
of the building now on the site of KWS station.

The modern building occupants had to let us in, but they didn't organise or
run the tour. That was done by LU or the Museum. I booked through LURS.

The tunnels under the Thames were only sealed off at the south bank,
because the flooding threat was to the 'new' London Bridge Station,
which is about 20ft underneath the original one.

I think the bomb shelters on that stretch of the line were accessed from
separate street entrances, rather than the tube stations. But I'd have
to confirm that.

I don't know. Obviously, the station was long disused by WWII, and the old
station entrance would have been lost.

I was thinking more about the section south of the Thames.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2021-12-10 18:27:30 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
And I'm not sure if the old London Bridge station building
above is still in existence (or even at Angel, where the
rebuilding involved moving the lift-accessed entrance a few
hundred yards round the block to a record-breaking-escalator accessed entrance).

Looking at Google Streetview I think it's vanished under the new
Borough Market viaduct.

I posted a Streetview link the other day to the building before it was
demolished.

Post by Roland Perry
...The Northern Line tunnels then cross the river a little east of the
bridge (rather than west), as far as I'm aware to miss the foundations

********************

Post by Roland Perry
of the bridge, before rejoining King William Street where it crosses
Lower Thames Street. Presumably they didn't want to flip the tunnels
over, while under the river or in the short distance north of the river
before Bank Station.

ISTR the other constraint under the river was the need to avoid the
foundations

see above.

Post by D A Stocks
of the medieval London Bridge, which is one reason why the new platform
is southbound rather than northbound.

Wouldn't that make it further west, and thus closer to the foundations?

Post by Recliner
But I still can't figure out why the CSLR switched to right-hand running
north of Borough?

It's "north of E&C".

Post by Recliner
There's no obvious reason apparent from the map.

Given that KWS had just one track, and London Bridge didn't have a
station, all I can think is that it was something vital to do with the
layout of Borough Station.

Borough is unusual in that the platforms are pretty much on top of each
other. It probably had to fit under Borough High Street.

The original plans don't show anything that would lead one to suspect
the platforms were on different levels. If anything that's more of a
possibility at Oval (where they are also staggered somewhat).

Post by D A Stocks
When I was commuting to Moorgate in the late 1980s it was often not
possible to get onto the northbound platform at London Bridge so I
would catch the first southbound train to Borough and change to a
northbound train there.
<http://cartometro.com/cartes/metro-tram-london/?r=cmf>

Which indeed shows the new southbound line at London Bridge closer to
the bridge, and what appears to be side by side platforms at Borough.

The layout at St Pauls (and Chancery Lane) is what they use when there's
one above the other.

--
Roland Perry

D A Stocks

2021-12-12 23:12:06 UTC

'Old' London Bridge was downstream (east) of both the current bridge and
the 1831 Rennie bridge.

Interesting; what road north of the river was it aligned with (I have some
old paper maps from then, but not very close at hand).
Looks like the existing Northern Line alignment is about 50m downstream
from the new bridge (depending in whether maps show the centre-line of
that tunnel, and where on the new bridge it's measured from.

Fish Street Hill, so it would have lined up with The Monument and the west
door of St Magnus the Martyr.

The current bridge is effectively four bridges side by side. The outer spans
were built first, either side of the 1831 Rennie bridge and then the traffic
was transferred onto them to allow the 1831 bridge to be dismantled and sent
off to Arizona, where it stands today.

AIUI the 1831 bridge was only a part of a larger scheme where about 2/3rds
of the cost was the approach roads: it must have been quite expensive to put
King William St diagonally across the medieval grid of streets to the south
of Bank.

--
DAS

Roland Perry

2021-12-14 06:07:58 UTC

'Old' London Bridge was downstream (east) of both the current bridge
and the 1831 Rennie bridge.

Interesting; what road north of the river was it aligned with (I have
some old paper maps from then, but not very close at hand).
Looks like the existing Northern Line alignment is about 50m
downstream from the new bridge (depending in whether maps show the
centre-line of that tunnel, and where on the new bridge it's measured

Fish Street Hill, so it would have lined up with The Monument and the
west door of St Magnus the Martyr.

OK, I think I've got it now. The northbound tunnel is as far east as
possible, any further east and it would have hit the foundations.
Although the Openstreetmap (for example) slightly exaggerates how far
east it is because their single dotted line is right underneath the
mediaeval bridge.

And thus when the needed to realign to a widened platform south of the
river, the only direction they could veer was further upstream on the
southbound line (but not as far as would hit the new bridge's
foundations).

Post by D A Stocks
The current bridge is effectively four bridges side by side. The outer
spans were built first, either side of the 1831 Rennie bridge and then
the traffic was transferred onto them to allow the 1831 bridge to be
dismantled and sent off to Arizona, where it stands today.
AIUI the 1831 bridge was only a part of a larger scheme where about
2/3rds of the cost was the approach roads: it must have been quite
expensive to put King William St diagonally across the medieval grid of
streets to the south of Bank.
--
DAS

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2021-12-10 21:43:00 UTC

Looking at Google Streetview I think it's vanished under the new Borough
Market viaduct.

Post by Recliner
I've never worked out why the original CSLR switched to right-hand running
for the section from London Bridge to the original terminus at King Willam
Street,

It switches over under the junction between Borough Rd and Newington
Causeway, just north of E&C Station.

Post by Recliner
which continues today past Bank.

That's the new alignment from a few hundred yards south of the current
London Bridge Station (as built, the C&SLR didn't originally have a
station at LB).

Well, new in 1900! But I wonder why they retained right-hand running as far
as Bank when they closed the King William St terminus section, replacing it
with the new route through Bank?

Post by Recliner
I wonder if the requirement to follow the street plan above forced the
right-hand running when the London Bridge to Bank section replaced the old
route?

ISTR the other constraint under the river was the need to avoid the
foundations of the medieval London Bridge, which is one reason why the new
platform is southbound rather than northbound.

Post by Recliner
But I still can't figure out why the CSLR switched to right-hand running
north of Borough?

It's "north of E&C".

Post by Recliner
There's no obvious reason apparent from the map.

Given that KWS had just one track, and London Bridge didn't have a
station, all I can think is that it was something vital to do with the
layout of Borough Station.

Borough is unusual in that the platforms are pretty much on top of each
other. It probably had to fit under Borough High Street.

Yes, I think that's the answer. The (higher) southbound platform was
accessed by lift from the surface, with stairs down to the northbound
platform, almost directly below.

I wonder why they didn't use the same lifts to access both levels, with
lift landings at both levels (like South Ken)?

Marland

2021-12-07 18:29:36 UTC

The Bank branch of the Northern Line will shortly be closing for a few
months, to allow the commissioning of the new,
wider southbound platform, built slightly to the west of the narrow old
platform, which dates from 1900. The old
platform will become a concourse between the platforms. There are four
new passages that will connect the new platform
to the old platform tunnel, which have already been built.
I took some pictures today of that platform as it exists just before closure.
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157720267253360>

Thanks,
Is the negative conductor rail a composite with a steel surface strip on
top of of an alloy main component ?
For years the tunnel sections of the deep tube lines have used conductor
rails of a different section to those on their open sections and the sub
surface lines. The positive rail is still equipped with that but the
negative now appears to be flat bottomed.

GH

Recliner

2021-12-08 11:40:02 UTC

Post by Marland

The Bank branch of the Northern Line will shortly be closing for a few
months, to allow the commissioning of the new,
wider southbound platform, built slightly to the west of the narrow old
platform, which dates from 1900. The old
platform will become a concourse between the platforms. There are four
new passages that will connect the new platform
to the old platform tunnel, which have already been built.
I took some pictures today of that platform as it exists just before closure.
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157720267253360>

Those Bank tracks are presumably a good few years old (particularly as it was known long ago that that section of line
would be closing). But the modern tracks with aluminium/steel composite conductor rails in Nine Elms are clear:
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/51499401076/in/album-72157719933713810/>

Marland

2021-12-08 15:25:35 UTC

Post by Marland

The Bank branch of the Northern Line will shortly be closing for a few
months,
I took some pictures today of that platform as it exists just before closure.
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157720267253360>

Those Bank tracks are presumably a good few years old (particularly as it
was known long ago that that section of line
would be closing). But the modern tracks with aluminium/steel composite
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/51499401076/in/album-72157719933713810/>

Thanks again, the negative at Bank appears to be that style so must have
become worn to the point it had to be replaced despite the imminent changes
.
I wonder who has the contract to supply the concrete pedestals that support
the negative rail where there is a pit, the design hasn’t changed since the
pits were installed in the 1920’s and 30’s and your photo of Nine Elms
shows it is still in use. Of course if a design works you may as well carry
on
using it but it is rare for somebody not change things for changes sake
especially over 90 years.

GH

M***@private-eye.com

2021-12-09 17:07:57 UTC

On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 16:06:00 +0000

A repeat of what happened at Angel and London Bridge about 20yrs ago.

I wonder why they did Angel first when Bank was always more crowded?

Still, its about time and hopefully the new tunnel has straightened out at
least some of the rather contorted route from moorgate.

Recliner

2021-12-09 21:20:11 UTC

Post by M***@private-eye.com
On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 16:06:00 +0000