it's funny that so many people here like singing in the rain

[Benny Fitzoffheinseit]

most people weaned on rock and rap can't stand old musicals. i tried
to make my pals watch singing in the rain once, and they began to
scream. their violent reaction had notthing to do with filmmaking or
whatever. they just thought it was soooo 'gay', two goofy white guys
hopping around to 'lameass' music. for most of my generation, music
is led zeppelin, pink floyd, aerosmith, neil young, brucie, or... even
styx(yech) or reo speedwagon. some might give older stuff like chuck
berry and elvis some respect but never listen to it on a regular
basis. but prior to rock? they think it's lameass, just like the
average moviegoer who digs john woo, tarantino, jackson, bay, etc find
stuff like john ford movies so wimpy and boring.

and never mind classical music. they start throwing fits. once i
played some and my palsy complained... 'there's no beat'.

and i remember one time at tower records where this female clerk was
trying to get her male coworker to appreciate west side story, and the
dude--tattooed, nose-ring, and nirvana-like hairstyle--just looked at
it with contempt.

well, how nice that movieloving folks are so well-rounded and
appeciative of past art and culture. it aint called
rec.arts.movies.past-films for nuttin.

[James Neibaur]

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
most people weaned on rock and rap can't stand old musicals. i tried
to make my pals watch singing in the rain once, and they began to
scream. their violent reaction had notthing to do with filmmaking or
whatever. they just thought it was soooo 'gay', two goofy white guys
hopping around to 'lameass' music. for most of my generation, music
is led zeppelin, pink floyd, aerosmith, neil young, brucie, or... even
styx(yech) or reo speedwagon. some might give older stuff like chuck
berry and elvis some respect but never listen to it on a regular
basis. but prior to rock? they think it's lameass, just like the
average moviegoer who digs john woo, tarantino, jackson, bay, etc find
stuff like john ford movies so wimpy and boring.

Oh, yeah, those are called idiots.

JN

[Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena goat's pelt to the deck'' )]

Post by James Neibaur

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
most people weaned on rock and rap can't stand old musicals. i tried
to make my pals watch singing in the rain once, and they began to
scream. their violent reaction had notthing to do with filmmaking or
whatever. they just thought it was soooo 'gay', two goofy white guys
hopping around to 'lameass' music. for most of my generation, music
is led zeppelin, pink floyd, aerosmith, neil young, brucie, or... even
styx(yech) or reo speedwagon. some might give older stuff like chuck
berry and elvis some respect but never listen to it on a regular
basis. but prior to rock? they think it's lameass, just like the
average moviegoer who digs john woo, tarantino, jackson, bay, etc find
stuff like john ford movies so wimpy and boring.

Oh, yeah, those are called idiots.

But I bet they know how to use a shift key properly.
--
"By the life of God, it doth even take my wits from me to think on it!
Here is such controversy between the sailors and the gentlemen, and such
stomaching between the gentlemen and sailors, that it doth even make me
mad to hear it. But, my masters, I must have it left. For I must have
the gentlemen to haul and draw with the mariner and the mariner with the
gentlemen. What! Let us show ourselves all to be of a company and let us
not give occasion to the enemy to rejoice at our decay and overthrow. I
would know him, that would refuse to set his hand to a rope, but I know
there is not any such here." -+Sir Frances Drake

[h***@brazee.net]

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
most people weaned on rock and rap can't stand old musicals.

Have you polled most such people? Or is your sample very small.

In my experience, young people don't have much trouble appreciating previous
generations' music and other art - it's the fogies that have trouble
appreciating the new stuff.

[James Neibaur]

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
most people weaned on rock and rap can't stand old musicals.

Have you polled most such people? Or is your sample very small.

I did not state the above. Please do not attribute it to me. I don't know
ANY rock music fans who do not also appreciate movie musicals.

JN

[Grand Inquisitor]

Post by James Neibaur
I did not state the above. Please do not attribute it to me. I don't know
ANY rock music fans who do not also appreciate movie musicals.

:::raises hand:::

[Daniel Kolle]

Post by James Neibaur

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
most people weaned on rock and rap can't stand old musicals.

Have you polled most such people? Or is your sample very small.

I did not state the above. Please do not attribute it to me. I don't know
ANY rock music fans who do not also appreciate movie musicals.

Teens most definitely do not.

--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, and Krzysztof Penderecki are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.

[h***@brazee.net]

Post by Daniel Kolle

Post by James Neibaur
I did not state the above. Please do not attribute it to me. I don't know
ANY rock music fans who do not also appreciate movie musicals.

Teens most definitely do not.

*some* teens.

I know some teens who most definitely do.

[Stephen Cooke]

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Daniel Kolle

Post by James Neibaur
I did not state the above. Please do not attribute it to me. I don't know
ANY rock music fans who do not also appreciate movie musicals.

Teens most definitely do not.

*some* teens.
I know some teens who most definitely do.

Lots of 'em got hooked by the recent Moulin Rouge, and started working
their way backwards. There are *tons* of kids who adore the Rocky Horror
Picture Show, not to mention other rock musicals like Jesus Christ
Superstar.

swac
But will they watch Phantom of the Paradise? Kids....

[Benny Fitzoffheinseit]

Post by Stephen Cooke

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Daniel Kolle

Post by James Neibaur
I did not state the above. Please do not attribute it to me. I don't know
ANY rock music fans who do not also appreciate movie musicals.

Teens most definitely do not.

*some* teens.
I know some teens who most definitely do.

Lots of 'em got hooked by the recent Moulin Rouge, and started working
their way backwards. There are *tons* of kids who adore the Rocky Horror
Picture Show, not to mention other rock musicals like Jesus Christ
Superstar.

moulin rouge and rocky horror? oh the horror the horror. moulin
rouge is musical as mtv idiocy and rocky horror is the worst musical
of all time.

[James Neibaur]

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
rocky horror is the worst musical
of all time.

you avoided Newsies, eh?

JN

[Mark Steese]

Post by James Neibaur

rocky horror is the worst musical of all time.

you avoided Newsies, eh?
JN

I missed Newsies, but I've seen "At Long Last Love," "Can't Stop the
Music," and "Xanadu," so I know for a fact that there are at least three
musicals that are several orders of magnitude worse than RHPS.

[Stephen Cooke]

Post by Mark Steese

Post by James Neibaur

rocky horror is the worst musical of all time.

you avoided Newsies, eh?
JN

I missed Newsies, but I've seen "At Long Last Love," "Can't Stop the
Music," and "Xanadu," so I know for a fact that there are at least three
musicals that are several orders of magnitude worse than RHPS.

Golden Dawn trumps 'em all. It's the Manos: The Hands of Fate of musicals.

swac
o/~"My bwaaaaaanaaaaa..."o/~

[jayembee]

Post by Mark Steese

Post by James Neibaur

rocky horror is the worst musical of all time.

you avoided Newsies, eh?

I missed Newsies, but I've seen "At Long Last Love,"
"Can't Stop the Music," and "Xanadu," so I know for a
fact that there are at least three musicals that are
several orders of magnitude worse than RHPS.

At least five, when you include the RHPS follow-up,
SHOCK TREATMENT, as well as THE FIRST NUDIE MUSICAL.

-- jayembee

[Stephen Cooke]

Post by jayembee
At least five, when you include the RHPS follow-up,
SHOCK TREATMENT, as well as THE FIRST NUDIE MUSICAL.

Hey, I will not have The First Nudie Musical besmirched!

swac
"Eisenstein and I are very similar in our methods...and of course he
continues to make great, money-making pictures."

[Stephen Cooke]

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit

Post by Stephen Cooke

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Daniel Kolle

Post by James Neibaur
I did not state the above. Please do not attribute it to me. I don't know
ANY rock music fans who do not also appreciate movie musicals.

Teens most definitely do not.

*some* teens.
I know some teens who most definitely do.

Lots of 'em got hooked by the recent Moulin Rouge, and started working
their way backwards. There are *tons* of kids who adore the Rocky Horror
Picture Show, not to mention other rock musicals like Jesus Christ
Superstar.

moulin rouge and rocky horror? oh the horror the horror. moulin
rouge is musical as mtv idiocy and rocky horror is the worst musical
of all time.

Hey, I'm not defending those films, "Benny". I'm just saying they're what
those in the recreational pharmaceutical biz call "gateway musicals".
Chances are those films were the first musicals seen by the majority of
their audiences, and for a chunk of those audiences, it was enough to lead
them to seek out other titles in the genre.

swac
Xanadu, on the other hand, may have permanently persuaded folks that the
darn things are bunk.

[larry legallo]

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:09:39 -0300, Stephen Cooke

Post by Stephen Cooke
Hey, I'm not defending those films, "Benny". I'm just saying they're what
those in the recreational pharmaceutical biz call "gateway musicals".
Chances are those films were the first musicals seen by the majority of
their audiences, and for a chunk of those audiences, it was enough to lead
them to seek out other titles in the genre.
swac
Xanadu, on the other hand, may have permanently persuaded folks that the
darn things are bunk.

I went to a friend's wedding recently, where most in attendance were
in the 25-35 age range, from different parts of the country. The
music at the reception was the standard array of cheesy "classics"-
you know the drill. The songs that consistently generated the biggest
reaction from the crowd- and I'm talking like orgasmic screams from
dozens of girls at once: anything from "Grease".

[James Neibaur]

Post by larry legallo
The songs that consistently generated the biggest
reaction from the crowd- and I'm talking like orgasmic screams from
dozens of girls at once: anything from "Grease".

That just makes me sad

JN

[Coby Beck]

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
moulin rouge and rocky horror? oh the horror the horror. moulin
rouge is musical as mtv idiocy and rocky horror is the worst musical
of all time.

Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the one
with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

[h***@brazee.net]

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

[John Harkness]

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.

John Harkness

[Allen]

Post by John Harkness

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced,

so much so that I stood up twice towrd the end to leave, thinking that
it was over--but no! it kept on going each time.
Allen Tyler
and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version

Post by John Harkness
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.
John Harkness

[Peter H. Granzeau]

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:40:09 -0400, John Harkness

Post by John Harkness

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.
John Harkness

You should have added "In my opinion" following "especially as" above,
should you not? Words like "slow" and "overproduced" and "not ... as
entertaining" express opinions, not facts.

[d***@DROPsocal.rr.com]

Post by Peter H. Granzeau

Post by John Harkness
especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.
John Harkness

You should have added "In my opinion" following "especially as" above,
should you not? Words like "slow" and "overproduced" and "not ... as
entertaining" express opinions, not facts.

In my opinion, when people post comments (opinions or facts or even
their deepest, darkest fears) on Usenet, it's virtually implied in the
act itself that what follows is usually so obviously either an opinion
or a fact that it hardly bears clarifying.

But maybe it does, at that.

[Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena goat's pelt to the deck'' )]

Post by d***@DROPsocal.rr.com

Post by Peter H. Granzeau

Post by John Harkness
especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.
John Harkness

You should have added "In my opinion" following "especially as" above,
should you not? Words like "slow" and "overproduced" and "not ... as
entertaining" express opinions, not facts.

In my opinion, when people post comments (opinions or facts or even
their deepest, darkest fears) on Usenet, it's virtually implied in the
act itself that what follows is usually so obviously either an opinion
or a fact that it hardly bears clarifying.

Since anything you say is by definition your opinion, always saying 'in
my opinion' is obviously redundant.

[George Peatty]

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:40:35 -0700, "Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena goat's pelt to the deck'' )
Since anything you say is by definition your opinion, always saying 'in
my opinion' is obviously redundant.

This is a favorite tack all of us in the online community .. myself included .. when we
hear something we don't like. It's simply a way to marginalize unpleasant statements in
an attempt to dismiss or discredit them, or lessen their impact. I get that a lot talking
about religious issues ("That's just your opinion .. ") since the hearer obviously cannot
accept it as anything but my opinion.

[Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena goat's pelt to the deck'' )]

Post by George Peatty
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:40:35 -0700, "Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena goat's pelt to the deck'' )
Since anything you say is by definition your opinion, always saying 'in
my opinion' is obviously redundant.

This is a favorite tack all of us in the online community .. myself included .. when we
hear something we don't like. It's simply a way to marginalize unpleasant statements in
an attempt to dismiss or discredit them, or lessen their impact. I get that a lot talking
about religious issues ("That's just your opinion .. ") since the hearer obviously cannot
accept it as anything but my opinion.

What you claim is by defintion your opinion.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter H. Granzeau
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:40:09 -0400, John Harkness

Post by John Harkness

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.
John Harkness

You should have added "In my opinion" following "especially as" above,
should you not? Words like "slow" and "overproduced" and "not ... as
entertaining" express opinions, not facts.

Yet somehow you managed to figure out that it was his opinion, even
though he didn't explicitly say so. Ain't language great?

[Dr.Matt]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter H. Granzeau
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:40:09 -0400, John Harkness

Post by John Harkness

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.
John Harkness

You should have added "In my opinion" following "especially as" above,
should you not? Words like "slow" and "overproduced" and "not ... as
entertaining" express opinions, not facts.

Yet somehow you managed to figure out that it was his opinion, even
though he didn't explicitly say so. Ain't language great?
--

The world is round. Am I stating that as a fact or opinion?

[George Peatty]

Post by Dr.Matt
The world is round. Am I stating that as a fact or opinion?

First, you have to define round. If by round, you mean circular, it is an opinion. If by
round you mean spherical, it is still an opinion, but closer to the truth. If by round
you mean oblate spheroid, then it is a fact.

[Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena goat's pelt to the deck'' )]

Post by Dr.Matt

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter H. Granzeau
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:40:09 -0400, John Harkness

Post by John Harkness

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.
John Harkness

You should have added "In my opinion" following "especially as" above,
should you not? Words like "slow" and "overproduced" and "not ... as
entertaining" express opinions, not facts.

Yet somehow you managed to figure out that it was his opinion, even
though he didn't explicitly say so. Ain't language great?
--

The world is round. Am I stating that as a fact or opinion?

You are making an assertion that is apparently your view. If you would
like to develop a generally available, explicit subjunctive for English,
have at it.

[Dr.Matt]

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena goat's pelt to the deck'' )

Post by Dr.Matt

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter H. Granzeau
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:40:09 -0400, John Harkness

Post by John Harkness

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.
John Harkness

You should have added "In my opinion" following "especially as" above,
should you not? Words like "slow" and "overproduced" and "not ... as
entertaining" express opinions, not facts.

Yet somehow you managed to figure out that it was his opinion, even
though he didn't explicitly say so. Ain't language great?
--

The world is round. Am I stating that as a fact or opinion?

You are making an assertion that is apparently your view. If you would
like to develop a generally available, explicit subjunctive for English,
have at it.

I wasn't addressing grammar, silly. Okay, so now that we've determined
that when I write "The world is round" I'm presenting that as an opinion,
how exactly does one present something as a fact on Usenet? How do you
know that there is such a thing as Usenet, by the way, and that it's
not just your opinion?

[Dr.Matt]

Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena goat's pelt to the

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena goat's pelt to the deck'' )

Post by Dr.Matt

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter H. Granzeau
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:40:09 -0400, John Harkness

Post by John Harkness

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine

film - the

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena goat's pelt to the deck'' )

Post by Dr.Matt

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter H. Granzeau

Post by John Harkness

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.
John Harkness

You should have added "In my opinion" following "especially as" above,
should you not? Words like "slow" and "overproduced" and "not ... as
entertaining" express opinions, not facts.

Yet somehow you managed to figure out that it was his opinion, even
though he didn't explicitly say so. Ain't language great?
--

The world is round. Am I stating that as a fact or opinion?

You are making an assertion that is apparently your view. If you would
like to develop a generally available, explicit subjunctive for English,
have at it.

I wasn't addressing grammar, silly. Okay, so now that we've determined
that when I write "The world is round" I'm presenting that as an opinion,
how exactly does one present something as a fact on Usenet? How do you
know that there is such a thing as Usenet, by the way, and that it's
not just your opinion?

I should just point out that in most of the cases cited earlier on this
thread, it was clear to me that opinions were the subject matter--probably.
But people can and do speak of their musical tastes as objective facts
about the music (the tragic-horrific case of Ayn Rand comes to mind).

[Nightingale]

Post by Dr.Matt
I should just point out that in most of the cases cited earlier on this
thread, it was clear to me that opinions were the subject matter--probably.
But people can and do speak of their musical tastes as objective facts
about the music (the tragic-horrific case of Ayn Rand comes to mind).

I have not heard of that - tell us more?

[Dr.Matt]

Post by Nightingale

Post by Dr.Matt
I should just point out that in most of the cases cited earlier on this
thread, it was clear to me that opinions were the subject matter--probably.
But people can and do speak of their musical tastes as objective facts
about the music (the tragic-horrific case of Ayn Rand comes to mind).

I have not heard of that - tell us more?

*sigh*

http://www.2think.org/02_2_she.shtml

The cult of Rand was still alive when I was a grad student at Stanford,
but I haven't paid them any attention since then so I don't know whether
they're still active.

[Nightingale]

Post by Dr.Matt
The cult of Rand was still alive when I was a grad student at Stanford,
but I haven't paid them any attention since then so I don't know whether
they're still active.

Thanks for the link. The cult seems to be still alive & I've crossed
paths with quite a few of her fans online, although none IRL. I had not
realized she had anything to say about music.

Why does she attract so many worshippers? I don't understand what the
attraction is.

[Dr.Matt]

Post by Nightingale

Post by Dr.Matt
The cult of Rand was still alive when I was a grad student at Stanford,
but I haven't paid them any attention since then so I don't know whether
they're still active.

Thanks for the link. The cult seems to be still alive & I've crossed
paths with quite a few of her fans online, although none IRL. I had not
realized she had anything to say about music.
Why does she attract so many worshippers? I don't understand what the
attraction is.

Why do people seek authorities to follow? I don't know, but it seems that
perhaps chimpanzees do, too.

[h***@brazee.net]

Post by Nightingale
Why does she attract so many worshippers? I don't understand what the
attraction is.

She says everybody is stupid and incompetent except for her illuminati.
This is a sure fire way of gaining worshippers.

[Nightingale]

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Nightingale
Why does she attract so many worshippers? I don't understand what the
attraction is.

She says everybody is stupid and incompetent except for her illuminati.
This is a sure fire way of gaining worshippers.

Amoung other things, she asks people to think for themselves and not
allow authority to dictate truth, but she became the authority for her
worshippers. I suppose it's not all that strange that the worshippers
don't follow what their god told them - it's happened before.

[paramucho]

Post by Dr.Matt

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter H. Granzeau
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:40:09 -0400, John Harkness

Post by John Harkness

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.
John Harkness

You should have added "In my opinion" following "especially as" above,
should you not? Words like "slow" and "overproduced" and "not ... as
entertaining" express opinions, not facts.

Yet somehow you managed to figure out that it was his opinion, even
though he didn't explicitly say so. Ain't language great?
--

The world is round. Am I stating that as a fact or opinion?

Are you feeling dizzy?

[Dr.Matt]

Post by paramucho

Post by Dr.Matt

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter H. Granzeau
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:40:09 -0400, John Harkness

Post by John Harkness

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.
John Harkness

You should have added "In my opinion" following "especially as" above,
should you not? Words like "slow" and "overproduced" and "not ... as
entertaining" express opinions, not facts.

Yet somehow you managed to figure out that it was his opinion, even
though he didn't explicitly say so. Ain't language great?
--

The world is round. Am I stating that as a fact or opinion?

Are you feeling dizzy?

No, I am not interested in messing with him, and besides, he hasn't posted
here in weeks.

[paramucho]

Post by Dr.Matt

Post by paramucho

Post by Dr.Matt

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter H. Granzeau
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:40:09 -0400, John Harkness

Post by John Harkness

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.
John Harkness

You should have added "In my opinion" following "especially as" above,
should you not? Words like "slow" and "overproduced" and "not ... as
entertaining" express opinions, not facts.

Yet somehow you managed to figure out that it was his opinion, even
though he didn't explicitly say so. Ain't language great?
--

The world is round. Am I stating that as a fact or opinion?

Are you feeling dizzy?

No, I am not interested in messing with him, and besides, he hasn't posted
here in weeks.

Well there ya go.

I *thought* someone had turned the lights out.

[John Harkness]

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:04:54 -0400, Peter H. Granzeau

Post by Peter H. Granzeau
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:40:09 -0400, John Harkness

Post by John Harkness

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.
John Harkness

You should have added "In my opinion" following "especially as" above,
should you not? Words like "slow" and "overproduced" and "not ... as
entertaining" express opinions, not facts.

Why? I mean, who else's opinion would it be?

And the 50s Showboat is crap.

John Harkness

[Vince Pilutis]

Post by John Harkness
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:04:54 -0400, Peter H. Granzeau

Post by Peter H. Granzeau
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:40:09 -0400, John Harkness

Post by John Harkness

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.
John Harkness

You should have added "In my opinion" following "especially as" above,
should you not? Words like "slow" and "overproduced" and "not ... as
entertaining" express opinions, not facts.

Why? I mean, who else's opinion would it be?
And the 50s Showboat is crap.

There was a pretty good one, I think with an English cast that was on PBS
some years back. However Julie was still too white looking.

[Tom Cervo]

Say what you like about 50's musicals, but only Fred Zinnemann gave us a Gordon
Macrae-Rod Steiger duet.

[Frank R.A.J. Maloney]

Post by Tom Cervo
Say what you like about 50's musicals, but only Fred Zinnemann gave us a Gordon
Macrae-Rod Steiger duet.

One of my favorites _Oklahoma_ numbers, btw.

"He's lookin' oh so purty and so nice
"He looks like he's asleep,
"It's a shame that he won't keep
"But it's summer and we're running out of ice."

[Tony Spadaro]

Shouldn't you post "In my opinion" at the beginning when you post an
opinion of another person's opinion? This is the usenet, Ace. EVERYTHING
here is opinion, and you can agree with or disagree with it - but your
OPINION is just another opinion.
While Showboat has moments the fact is that none of the movie versions
gets around the clumsy, clunky, and downright assinine source material - yet
another really bad pot boiler, from the lady that churned out so much of it
(Simmer On and On, So Big) - Edna Furball - or was that her cat's name?
Of course she also wrote Dinner at Eight which, although an uppy downer
of a trip has one of the best final lines in all of moviedom.
--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html

Post by Peter H. Granzeau
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:40:09 -0400, John Harkness

Post by John Harkness

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.
John Harkness

You should have added "In my opinion" following "especially as" above,
should you not? Words like "slow" and "overproduced" and "not ... as
entertaining" express opinions, not facts.

[BobbyM]

Post by Tony Spadaro
Shouldn't you post "In my opinion" at the beginning when you post an
opinion of another person's opinion?

IMO, people shouldn't continue crossposting just because the orginal poster
was craving attention.

[Tony Spadaro]

In my opinion you are an anal retentive. I killfile them - BYeeee!
--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html

Post by BobbyM

Post by Tony Spadaro
Shouldn't you post "In my opinion" at the beginning when you post an
opinion of another person's opinion?

IMO, people shouldn't continue crossposting just because the orginal poster
was craving attention.

[Dr.Matt]

Post by Tony Spadaro
This is the usenet, Ace.

I disagree! It's just YOUR OPINION that this is the usenet.

[Tony Spadaro]

Got me!
--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html

Post by Dr.Matt

Post by Tony Spadaro
This is the usenet, Ace.

I disagree! It's just YOUR OPINION that this is the usenet.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
"Hey, don't knock Placebo, its the only thing effective for my

hypochondria."

Post by Dr.Matt
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/

[Joe Roberts]

Post by John Harkness
especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.

Ah, well, (in my opinion, of course) the 50s version has some spots of
brilliance:

... "Only Make Believe" was quite beautifully and touchingly sung by
Kathryn Grayson and Howard Keel.

... There's Marge and Gower Champion, with not a lot to do but doing it
with elegance.

... William Warfield. Maybe you'll find a better basso at one time or
another, but wasn't it worth the movie ticket to see him do ... well, wasn't
it?

... Ava Gardner was no singer, and was too hollywoodly made-up. But
lusciously cast into that role of a wronged woman, with whom beauty should
be seen as more than skin deep.

That 'Showboat' version was of its era in movies, but some of its highlights
are timeless.

Humble opinion, of course.

Joe Roberts

[John Harkness]

Post by Joe Roberts

Post by John Harkness
especially as it's not really much of a film at all, being slow,
overproduced, and not nearly as entertaining as the mid-30s version
with Irene Dunne and Helen Morgan.

Ah, well, (in my opinion, of course) the 50s version has some spots of
... "Only Make Believe" was quite beautifully and touchingly sung by
Kathryn Grayson and Howard Keel.
... There's Marge and Gower Champion, with not a lot to do but doing it
with elegance.
... William Warfield. Maybe you'll find a better basso at one time or
another, but wasn't it worth the movie ticket to see him do ... well, wasn't
it?
... Ava Gardner was no singer, and was too hollywoodly made-up. But
lusciously cast into that role of a wronged woman, with whom beauty should
be seen as more than skin deep.
That 'Showboat' version was of its era in movies, but some of its highlights
are timeless.

There you go. The last sentence seals it.

I've often suspected that one of the reasons the Freed Unit films at
MGM look so great is that they're sitting in the context of a fairly
dreadful era for the screen musical.

Basically, you get away from Minnelli and Kelly/Donen, you're left
with George Sidney, king of the pointlessly elaborate travelling shot,
and a bunch of hugely produced stage adaptations -- all those Fox
adaptations, and Joshua Logan. (I can't be the only one who prefers
Rogert And Hart to Rogers and Hammerstein.) I'm overstating my case,
of course, and there's goodies in there like Silk Stocking, but in the
50s, Hollywood doesn't mount musicals -- it stuffs and mounts them.

John Harkness

[Stephen Cooke]

Post by John Harkness
I've often suspected that one of the reasons the Freed Unit films at
MGM look so great is that they're sitting in the context of a fairly
dreadful era for the screen musical.
Basically, you get away from Minnelli and Kelly/Donen, you're left
with George Sidney, king of the pointlessly elaborate travelling shot,
and a bunch of hugely produced stage adaptations -- all those Fox
adaptations, and Joshua Logan. (I can't be the only one who prefers
Rogert And Hart to Rogers and Hammerstein.) I'm overstating my case,
of course, and there's goodies in there like Silk Stocking, but in the
50s, Hollywood doesn't mount musicals -- it stuffs and mounts them.

Oh well, there's always The 5,000 Fingers of Dr. T...

swac
Going domidoing in my domido duds.

[Dr.Matt]

Post by Stephen Cooke

Post by John Harkness
I've often suspected that one of the reasons the Freed Unit films at
MGM look so great is that they're sitting in the context of a fairly
dreadful era for the screen musical.
Basically, you get away from Minnelli and Kelly/Donen, you're left
with George Sidney, king of the pointlessly elaborate travelling shot,
and a bunch of hugely produced stage adaptations -- all those Fox
adaptations, and Joshua Logan. (I can't be the only one who prefers
Rogert And Hart to Rogers and Hammerstein.) I'm overstating my case,
of course, and there's goodies in there like Silk Stocking, but in the
50s, Hollywood doesn't mount musicals -- it stuffs and mounts them.

Oh well, there's always The 5,000 Fingers of Dr. T...

Truly an exceptional movie, though, which would have done better at the
box office had it been held in reserve and released in 1968...

[d***@DROPsocal.rr.com]

Post by Joe Roberts
... "Only Make Believe" was quite beautifully and touchingly sung by
Kathryn Grayson and Howard Keel.
That 'Showboat' version was of its era in movies, but some of its highlights
are timeless.

Nobody ever cites the inspired inclusion of Charles Harris' "After the
Ball," the greatest pop song of all time.

IN MY OPINION!!

[Maureen Goldman]

Post by Joe Roberts
... Ava Gardner was no singer, and was too hollywoodly made-up. But
lusciously cast into that role of a wronged woman, with whom beauty should
be seen as more than skin deep.

I didn't think that Gardner's character was wronged. We only saw that
she was no longer with her lover.

[d***@DROPsocal.rr.com]

Post by Maureen Goldman
I didn't think that Gardner's character was wronged. We only saw that
she was no longer with her lover.

Maureen, you wouldn't call being subject to racial harassment being
wronged?

Julie's the tragic figure in "Showboat."

[Tom Cervo]

Post by d***@DROPsocal.rr.com
Julie's the tragic figure in "Showboat."

At least the 30's version. Toward the end Helen Morgan, having fallen to the
depths, goes to audition, shaky or having the shakes, getting a sneer from all
the kids and the men, and then she sings and the movie stops. I mean it. Leave
then; it won't get any better.

[Coby Beck]

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Coby Beck
Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the
one with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Why did you specify that version?

Just because it's the only one I've seen but I knew there were others. And
I only made that comment in case it sounded like I was putting it down.

Interesting flurry of posting it caused though. But it was really Moulin
Rouge I made my post for.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Coby Beck

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
moulin rouge and rocky horror? oh the horror the horror. moulin
rouge is musical as mtv idiocy and rocky horror is the worst musical
of all time.

Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the one
with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Hardly. If you view them back to back, there's no way you can't prefer
the original (even though Helen Morgan was no longer what she had been
just a few years earlier). James Whale's stylization is incomparably
superior to the full-MGM treatment of the color version.

[Frank R.A.J. Maloney]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Coby Beck

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
moulin rouge and rocky horror? oh the horror the horror. moulin
rouge is musical as mtv idiocy and rocky horror is the worst musical
of all time.

Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the one
with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Hardly. If you view them back to back, there's no way you can't prefer
the original (even though Helen Morgan was no longer what she had been
just a few years earlier). James Whale's stylization is incomparably
superior to the full-MGM treatment of the color version.

I have no problem preferring the Katherine Grayson version over the Irene
Dunne one, James Whale and Helen Morgan notwithstanding. Actually, both have
strengths and weaknesses.

One of the major weaknesses in the 1936 version is the intrusive, racist
melodrama which stops the film cold. On the other hand, the earlier version
preserves the more prominent roles and the songs of the black members of the
cast.

I prefer the foreshortened story line of the 1951 version, which shifts the
story from Kim to her parents. It's much more economical and focused.

I adore Ava Gardner's Julie even if her songs are dubbed; she's a great and
beautiful actress who is heartbreaking at the end. The only way this could
have been improved would have been if Lena Horne had been allowed to play
Julie.

In 1936 Irene Dunne was too old to play young Nolie and Allan Jones is
totally unacceptable as Gaylord (or in any other role). This version of
course features the immortal Paul Robeson as Joe, but William Warfield does
a fine job with "Old Man River", plus the staging in 1951 was wonderful, the
reprise never failing to move me deeply.

The 1936 version also drops out some favorite numbers, even while preserving
others that disappeared in 1951, prime among them being "Life Upon the
Wicked Stage". Marge and Gower Champion's numbers, btw, are wonderful.

Maybe Rob Marshall should consider doing a 21st century _Show Boat_ that
would combine the virtues of the earlier versions and more fully reflect the
original stage version while he's at it.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Frank R.A.J. Maloney

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Coby Beck

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
moulin rouge and rocky horror? oh the horror the horror. moulin
rouge is musical as mtv idiocy and rocky horror is the worst musical
of all time.

Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the one
with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Hardly. If you view them back to back, there's no way you can't prefer
the original (even though Helen Morgan was no longer what she had been
just a few years earlier). James Whale's stylization is incomparably
superior to the full-MGM treatment of the color version.

I have no problem preferring the Katherine Grayson version over the Irene
Dunne one, James Whale and Helen Morgan notwithstanding. Actually, both have
strengths and weaknesses.
One of the major weaknesses in the 1936 version is the intrusive, racist
melodrama which stops the film cold. On the other hand, the earlier version
preserves the more prominent roles and the songs of the black members of the
cast.

That's the whole damn point of the show!

Post by Frank R.A.J. Maloney
Maybe Rob Marshall should consider doing a 21st century _Show Boat_ that
would combine the virtues of the earlier versions and more fully reflect the
original stage version while he's at it.

There was an immensely successful stage production out of Toronto in the
1990s. It was videotaped.

[Coby Beck]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Coby Beck

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
moulin rouge and rocky horror? oh the horror the horror. moulin
rouge is musical as mtv idiocy and rocky horror is the worst musical
of all time.

Moulin Rouge is a fabulous film in every way. If you wanted it to be
Showboat, you should have just watched Showboat (another fine film - the one
with Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc..)

Hardly. If you view them back to back, there's no way you can't prefer
the original (even though Helen Morgan was no longer what she had been
just a few years earlier). James Whale's stylization is incomparably
superior to the full-MGM treatment of the color version.

As I said, I haven't seen James Whale's version much less back to back with
the other. But now that you have made your "no way" statement, I have
decided I will not prefer the original...

[Benny Fitzoffheinseit]

Post by James Neibaur

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
most people weaned on rock and rap can't stand old musicals. i tried
to make my pals watch singing in the rain once, and they began to
scream. their violent reaction had notthing to do with filmmaking or
whatever. they just thought it was soooo 'gay', two goofy white guys
hopping around to 'lameass' music. for most of my generation, music
is led zeppelin, pink floyd, aerosmith, neil young, brucie, or... even
styx(yech) or reo speedwagon. some might give older stuff like chuck
berry and elvis some respect but never listen to it on a regular
basis. but prior to rock? they think it's lameass, just like the
average moviegoer who digs john woo, tarantino, jackson, bay, etc find
stuff like john ford movies so wimpy and boring.

Oh, yeah, those are called idiots.
JN

you know what i think? it's paradoxical but i think availability has
lessened the value of art and culture.

when there was no vcr or cable, cineastes had to look at film
schedules, get excited about going to the screening, watch intently
since they couldn't press pause or rewind, and then try to keep in
one's memory as best as possible.

but, now that we can order any movie at anytime and see it anyway we
want--especially with dvds--film viewing is no longer special. same
with musical concerts. cds, unlike record albums, do not even need to
be well taken care of. how i miss cleaning those albums, handling them
with utmost care.

to give you an example, a girlfriend of someone i knew took out
several bergman dvds and watched them rather casually, walking back
and forth to the kitchen, pausing, gabbing, changing audio track from
swedish to critic's commentary, etc, etc. these films were not made
to be seen this way.

if we could, with click of a button, revive a beautiful sunset or
night of shooting stars, they would no longer be special. i think art
was more respected and seemed special when it took effort,
expectation, concentration for us to access. now, it's all just a
matter of going to the video store, watching cable, downloading stuff
on the internet, etc.
we have more and there's more sampling but lesser and lesser
concentration, respect, and appreciation.

to give you an example, when i first saw seven samurai in 83, i didn't
have a vcr and many art movies were not even available on vcr. that
movie just stayed with me, day after day. same with hey babu riba and
makioka sisters. after obtaining all three on video, i never really
think about them. i know they are there whenever i want them.

now, of course we want availability, availability is great, and we
don't want to turn back the clock. but we lost as we gained.

[Your Pal Brian]

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
you know what i think? it's paradoxical but i think availability has
lessened the value of art and culture.

Ever read John Philip Sousa's 1906 manifesto against "canned music"?

"Under such conditions the tide of amateurism cannot but recede, until there will be left only the
mechanical device and the professional executant. Singing will no longer be a fine accomplishment;
vocal exercises, so important a factor in the curriculum of physical culture, will be out of
vogue! Then what of the national throat? Will it not weaken? What of the national chest? Will
it not shrink? When a mother can turn on the phonograph with the same ease that she applies to the
electric light, will she croon her baby to slumber with sweet lullabys, or will the infant be put
to sleep by machinery?"

He was right of course. The whole thing's here:

http://www27.brinkster.com/phonozoic/menace.htm

It's downright nutty what you can find online!

Brian

[Grand Inquisitor]

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
and never mind classical music. they start throwing fits. once i
played some and my palsy complained... 'there's no beat'.

It has nothing to do with music, per se. I like classical music, for
instance.

[madkevin]

Post by Grand Inquisitor

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
and never mind classical music. they start throwing fits. once i
played some and my palsy complained... 'there's no beat'.

It has nothing to do with music, per se. I like classical music, for
instance.

You know that's Gaza, right? I only ask because you're supposed to be really
good at noticing what other people don't.

Kevin "Ironically" Cogliano

[John Harkness]

Post by madkevin

Post by Grand Inquisitor

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
and never mind classical music. they start throwing fits. once i
played some and my palsy complained... 'there's no beat'.

It has nothing to do with music, per se. I like classical music, for
instance.

You know that's Gaza, right? I only ask because you're supposed to be really
good at noticing what other people don't.
Kevin "Ironically" Cogliano

GI talking to Gaza....

If a tree falls in my killfile...

John "A Touch of Zen" Harkness

[Grand Inquisitor]

Post by madkevin
You know that's Gaza, right? I only ask because you're supposed to be really
good at noticing what other people don't.

Yes, I knew it was him. I once made a point of ignoring his posts
entirely but I decided if he makes a post that intrigues me, why not?
He's not going to go away.

[madkevin]

Post by Grand Inquisitor

Post by madkevin
You know that's Gaza, right? I only ask because you're supposed to be really
good at noticing what other people don't.

Yes, I knew it was him. I once made a point of ignoring his posts
entirely but I decided if he makes a post that intrigues me, why not?
He's not going to go away.

So, you know that he's not going to learn or listen, but you respond to him
anyway. Well, considering I respond to you, who am I to criticize?

Kevin "Shell Game" Cogliano

[Daniel Kolle]

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:31:57 GMT, Grand Inquisitor

Post by Grand Inquisitor

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
and never mind classical music. they start throwing fits. once i
played some and my palsy complained... 'there's no beat'.

It has nothing to do with music, per se. I like classical music, for
instance.

Whoa. Small world.

--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, and Krzysztof Penderecki are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.

[Dudhorse]

Post by Grand Inquisitor

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
and never mind classical music. they start throwing fits. once i
played some and my palsy complained... 'there's no beat'.

It has nothing to do with music, per se. I like classical music, for
instance.

... once I heard some airhead complain about classical music: "Like if it
was really good it would have names instead of numbers!"

[Kingo Gondo]

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
most people weaned on rock and rap can't stand old musicals. i tried
to make my pals watch singing in the rain once, and they began to
scream. their violent reaction had notthing to do with filmmaking or
whatever. they just thought it was soooo 'gay', two goofy white guys
hopping around to 'lameass' music. for most of my generation, music
is led zeppelin, pink floyd, aerosmith, neil young, brucie, or... even
styx(yech) or reo speedwagon. some might give older stuff like chuck
berry and elvis some respect but never listen to it on a regular
basis. but prior to rock? they think it's lameass, just like the
average moviegoer who digs john woo, tarantino, jackson, bay, etc find
stuff like john ford movies so wimpy and boring.
and never mind classical music. they start throwing fits. once i
played some and my palsy complained... 'there's no beat'.
and i remember one time at tower records where this female clerk was
trying to get her male coworker to appreciate west side story, and the
dude--tattooed, nose-ring, and nirvana-like hairstyle--just looked at
it with contempt.

Personally, I'm not big on musicals, as I posted earlier this year
(http://snipurl.com/744h ). I like some, but I don't think they are
generally the ones which are considered the top of the genre by aficionados.
When I hear Singing In The Rain, for example, I don't think of Gene Kelly--I
think of Alex DeLarge about to do a little of the old in-out in-out, real
horrorshow like. I don't sweat it.

I will say, however, that any (straight) guy who doesn't like West Side
Story is NUTS--it has NATALIE WOOD, for fuck's sake; what more do you need?

Oh yeah, almost forgot--fuck you, Gaza. And what's with this palsy?

[Dr.Matt]

Expose your "classical=no beat" friends to Xenakis's Pleiades at top volume.

[Rich.Andrews]

Post by Dr.Matt
Expose your "classical=no beat" friends to Xenakis's Pleiades at top volume.

Some J. Strauss would also do them in.

r

[paramucho]

Post by Dr.Matt
Expose your "classical=no beat" friends to Xenakis's Pleiades at top volume.

And then read "How The Exception Proves The Rule" by Miss L.E.Adding.

That said, of course classical has a beat, it's just the beat of a
distant drum to many. The backbeat has become pervasive today in the
same way that regular barring or regular periods have done in times
past.

I guess an audience raised on Mozart could react much the same way to
a Palestrina, or even a Bach.

Times change.

[G. M. Watson]

----------

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
most people weaned on rock and rap can't stand old musicals. i tried
to make my pals watch singing in the rain once, and they began to
scream. their violent reaction had notthing to do with filmmaking or
whatever. they just thought it was soooo 'gay', two goofy white guys
hopping around to 'lameass' music. for most of my generation, music
is led zeppelin, pink floyd, aerosmith, neil young, brucie, or... even
styx(yech) or reo speedwagon. some might give older stuff like chuck
berry and elvis some respect but never listen to it on a regular
basis. but prior to rock? they think it's lameass, just like the
average moviegoer who digs john woo, tarantino, jackson, bay, etc find
stuff like john ford movies so wimpy and boring.

From your stated tastes in music, I have to assume that you and most of your
"pals" are in your mid-40s or older. Hence it's kind of bemusing to hear
what narrow-minded, self-regarding dickheads they still are as they hurtle
toward geezerhood-- kinda like those pathetic Bob Guccione-type guys that
used to turn up in rock clubs in the 70s in Tom Jones shirts and polyester
bellbottoms, wearing big gold medallions and worrying about their hair
implants as they desperately tried to pick up much younger "chicks". Most
twentysomethings of my acquaintance, weaned on hip-hop, electronica,
neo-punk, and god knows what else, would find your pals' (in this context)
hilariously outdated dinosaur-rock tastes to be ten times as lame as they in
turn find SITR (although it has to be said that, thanks in part to the
near-universal availability of a huge back catalog of the film and music of
other times and cultures on digital media, many young people today are much
more culturally sophisticated and broadminded than their boomer forebears
ever were).

Do your "pals", or you, really think that, in 2004, listening to the mouldy
likes of REO Speedwagon somehow marks one as hip or contemporary, or in any
way qualified to sneer at Gene Kelly? Tell your idiot buds that sooner or
later they have to stop being Peter Pan. In other words, grow the fuck up,
grow a brain and get a life.
GMW

[Benny Fitzoffheinseit]

Post by G. M. Watson
----------

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
most people weaned on rock and rap can't stand old musicals. i tried
to make my pals watch singing in the rain once, and they began to
scream. their violent reaction had notthing to do with filmmaking or
whatever. they just thought it was soooo 'gay', two goofy white guys
hopping around to 'lameass' music. for most of my generation, music
is led zeppelin, pink floyd, aerosmith, neil young, brucie, or... even
styx(yech) or reo speedwagon. some might give older stuff like chuck
berry and elvis some respect but never listen to it on a regular
basis. but prior to rock? they think it's lameass, just like the
average moviegoer who digs john woo, tarantino, jackson, bay, etc find
stuff like john ford movies so wimpy and boring.

From your stated tastes in music, I have to assume that you and most of your
"pals" are in your mid-40s or older. Hence it's kind of bemusing to hear
what narrow-minded, self-regarding dickheads they still are as they hurtle
toward geezerhood-- kinda like those pathetic Bob Guccione-type guys that
used to turn up in rock clubs in the 70s in Tom Jones shirts and polyester
bellbottoms, wearing big gold medallions and worrying about their hair
implants as they desperately tried to pick up much younger "chicks". Most
twentysomethings of my acquaintance, weaned on hip-hop, electronica,
neo-punk, and god knows what else, would find your pals' (in this context)
hilariously outdated dinosaur-rock tastes to be ten times as lame as they in
turn find SITR (although it has to be said that, thanks in part to the
near-universal availability of a huge back catalog of the film and music of
other times and cultures on digital media, many young people today are much
more culturally sophisticated and broadminded than their boomer forebears
ever were).

i disagree. the availability is greater but the passion is less. a
film professor in college told me in the early 90s that when he began
teaching film in the early 70s, college students were deeply
passionate about cinema though availability was very limited--before
vcr and cable. however, over the 80s and in the 90s, the passion had
dissipated. new college students regarded cinema mainly as
entertainment, not a vital artform. when i went to campus movie
revivals of welles or hitchcock films, not many showed up. for
terminator it was packed.
stanley kauffmann said as much in an essay where he recounted only two
students in his film class even heard of godard.
we have more of everything but most of the kids are swamped by
mainstream tv and hollywood or youth subculture, mostly variations of
grunge rock and techno rave.
there's more availability but less passion.

Post by G. M. Watson
Do your "pals", or you, really think that, in 2004, listening to the mouldy
likes of REO Speedwagon somehow marks one as hip or contemporary, or in any
way qualified to sneer at Gene Kelly? Tell your idiot buds that sooner or
later they have to stop being Peter Pan. In other words, grow the fuck up,
grow a brain and get a life.
GMW

they are representative of the mainstream. i'm not talking about
people like you who make up a very small minority. check yahoo box
office numbers. art and foreign films are lucky to rank in the 30s or
40s, if that. children grow up watching harry potter and shrek and
graduate to LOR and matrix and seek out little that is different or
challenging.

[paramucho]

Post by Benny Fitzoffheinseit
most people weaned on rock and rap can't stand old musicals. i tried
to make my pals watch singing in the rain once, and they began to
scream. their violent reaction had notthing to do with filmmaking or
whatever. they just thought it was soooo 'gay', two goofy white guys
hopping around to 'lameass' music.

Last new years eve was spent with a neighbour, and her brother, who I
hadn't met before. He and I don't exactly look salon-faehig. In fact,
on a dark night we probably look like your worst nightmare from a
chainsaw movie. Anyway, we decided to watch a video and the two of us
voted for, or more exactly, *demanded*, BRIGADOON. I don't know who
was more shocked -- probably the sister.

Anyhow, SINGING IN THE RAIN has never done anything for me. Gene Kelly
got too much of his own poncy way in that one. He's only just bearable
in BRIGADOON.

When the mist is on the meadows
la dee da dee da dee da...

[h***@brazee.net]

Post by paramucho
Anyhow, SINGING IN THE RAIN has never done anything for me. Gene Kelly
got too much of his own poncy way in that one. He's only just bearable
in BRIGADOON.

But _Brigadoon_ is basically a surreal fantasy (although not presented that
way). The fantasy doesn't make any sense at all.

[paramucho]

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by paramucho
Anyhow, SINGING IN THE RAIN has never done anything for me. Gene Kelly
got too much of his own poncy way in that one. He's only just bearable
in BRIGADOON.

But _Brigadoon_ is basically a surreal fantasy (although not presented that
way). The fantasy doesn't make any sense at all.

Maybe that explains why I can *never* remember the title of the thing.
I had to google "gene kelly scottish" tonight to pick it up...

The other permanent hole I have is with the name of the actor who
plays Zorba. The link in my brain seems to be hardwired to Ernest
Borgnine and I never get past that.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by paramucho

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by paramucho
Anyhow, SINGING IN THE RAIN has never done anything for me. Gene Kelly
got too much of his own poncy way in that one. He's only just bearable
in BRIGADOON.

But _Brigadoon_ is basically a surreal fantasy (although not presented that
way). The fantasy doesn't make any sense at all.

Maybe that explains why I can *never* remember the title of the thing.
I had to google "gene kelly scottish" tonight to pick it up...
The other permanent hole I have is with the name of the actor who
plays Zorba. The link in my brain seems to be hardwired to Ernest
Borgnine and I never get past that.

Anthony Quinn's last major role was opposite Katharine Hepburn, in what
was generally recognized would be her last appearance.

[Dr.Matt]

Post by paramucho

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by paramucho
Anyhow, SINGING IN THE RAIN has never done anything for me. Gene Kelly
got too much of his own poncy way in that one. He's only just bearable
in BRIGADOON.

But _Brigadoon_ is basically a surreal fantasy (although not presented that
way). The fantasy doesn't make any sense at all.

Maybe that explains why I can *never* remember the title of the thing.
I had to google "gene kelly scottish" tonight to pick it up...
The other permanent hole I have is with the name of the actor who
plays Zorba. The link in my brain seems to be hardwired to Ernest
Borgnine and I never get past that.

Not pomegranites but quinces. Something about quinces...

[paramucho]

Post by Dr.Matt

Post by paramucho

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by paramucho
Anyhow, SINGING IN THE RAIN has never done anything for me. Gene Kelly
got too much of his own poncy way in that one. He's only just bearable
in BRIGADOON.

But _Brigadoon_ is basically a surreal fantasy (although not presented that
way). The fantasy doesn't make any sense at all.

Maybe that explains why I can *never* remember the title of the thing.
I had to google "gene kelly scottish" tonight to pick it up...
The other permanent hole I have is with the name of the actor who
plays Zorba. The link in my brain seems to be hardwired to Ernest
Borgnine and I never get past that.

Not pomegranites but quinces. Something about quinces...

They're easier to peel than pomegranates?

[h***@brazee.net]

Post by paramucho
The other permanent hole I have is with the name of the actor who
plays Zorba.

He's as Mexican as Raquel Welsh.

[h***@brazee.net]

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by paramucho
The other permanent hole I have is with the name of the actor who
plays Zorba.

He's as Mexican as Raquel Welsh.

His last name is my grandson's first name.

Question: Has this professional ethnic ever played an Eskimo? I keep
singing Dylan.

[John Harkness]

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by paramucho
The other permanent hole I have is with the name of the actor who
plays Zorba.

He's as Mexican as Raquel Welsh.

His last name is my grandson's first name.
Question: Has this professional ethnic ever played an Eskimo? I keep
singing Dylan.

Yes, he has.

John Harkness

[Stephen Cooke]

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by paramucho
The other permanent hole I have is with the name of the actor who
plays Zorba.

He's as Mexican as Raquel Welsh.

His last name is my grandson's first name.
Question: Has this professional ethnic ever played an Eskimo? I keep
singing Dylan.

Wasn't it in The Savage Innocents?

Hmm....from the IMDb: An Eskimo who has had little contact with white men
goes to a trading post where he accidentally kills a missionary and finds
himself being pursued by the police.

Yep, The Savage Innocents.

swac
Hey, it's a Nicholas Ray film I haven't seen! With Peter O'Toole and Anna
May Wong! Where's the DVD?

[Greg Ioannou]

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by paramucho
The other permanent hole I have is with the name of the actor who
plays Zorba.

He's as Mexican as Raquel Welsh.

Mexican? MEXICAN?????

[h***@brazee.net]

Post by Greg Ioannou
Mexican? MEXICAN?????

Funny, he plays so many ethnics - but he's from Chihuahua.

[Mark Steese]

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by Greg Ioannou
Mexican? MEXICAN?????

Funny, he plays so many ethnics - but he's from Chihuahua.

His father was half Irish, hence the surname -- Anthony was christened
Antonio Rudolfo Oaxaca Quinn, which would have been a little more of a
giveaway.

There's a Hollywood legend that Quinn got cast in "The Plainsman" by
pretending he was a Cheyenne who could speak little English. Maybe...but
on the other hand, DeMille filmed the Little Big Horn scenes on a Cheyenne
reservation in Montana, using 2000 Indian actors as extras, so if he'd
wanted an authentic Cheyenne to play Quinn's role, he wouldn't have had to
look too hard.

[Marc Wielage]

Post by Greg Ioannou

Post by h***@brazee.net
He's as Mexican as Raquel Welsh.

Mexican? MEXICAN?????
--------------------------------snip----------------------------------<

Raquel Welch's real name is Raquel Tejada. I worked on a film a few years
ago, TORTILLA SOUP, where Raquel played a vibrant (but older)
Mexican-American woman trying to romance Hector Elizondo.

--MFW

[George Peatty]

Post by Marc Wielage
Raquel Welch's real name is Raquel Tejada. I worked on a film a few years
ago, TORTILLA SOUP, where Raquel played a vibrant (but older)
Mexican-American woman trying to romance Hector Elizondo.

Coming late to this conversation, so I don't know if it's been mentioned already: Ms.
Welch is Latina, but she is *not* Mexican. Bolivian father, IIRC, born in Chicago, raised
in So Cal.

[Lou Pecora]

Post by Marc Wielage
Raquel Welch's real name is Raquel Tejada. I worked on a film a few years
ago, TORTILLA SOUP, where Raquel played a vibrant (but older)
Mexican-American woman trying to romance Hector Elizondo.
--MFW

Yeah, really liked that flick.

-- Lou Pecora (my views are my own)

They laughed at Galileo. They laughed at Newton.
But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- Carl Sagan

[Stephen Cooke]

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by paramucho
Anyhow, SINGING IN THE RAIN has never done anything for me. Gene Kelly
got too much of his own poncy way in that one. He's only just bearable
in BRIGADOON.

But _Brigadoon_ is basically a surreal fantasy (although not presented that
way). The fantasy doesn't make any sense at all.

Neither does the casting of Van Johnson, but what can you do?

swac

[paramucho]

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:59:03 -0300, Stephen Cooke

Post by Stephen Cooke

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by paramucho
Anyhow, SINGING IN THE RAIN has never done anything for me. Gene Kelly
got too much of his own poncy way in that one. He's only just bearable
in BRIGADOON.

But _Brigadoon_ is basically a surreal fantasy (although not presented that
way). The fantasy doesn't make any sense at all.

Neither does the casting of Van Johnson, but what can you do?

It's the kind of movie that W.C. Fields took such great delight in
brutalising. Completely amateurish from start to finish. A wonderful
catastrophe.

I'm trying to recall the name of a particular W.C. Fields movie. He
walks down a road or hall with sound stages opening off either side of
him. A half dozen different movies are being shot at the same time.
It's pandemonium. One has one of thosetypical Deanna Durbin-like
starlets singing one of those endless Hollywood soprano cadenzas. The
score is an endless scroll.

[Your Pal Brian]

Post by Stephen Cooke

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by paramucho
Anyhow, SINGING IN THE RAIN has never done anything for me. Gene Kelly
got too much of his own poncy way in that one. He's only just bearable
in BRIGADOON.

But _Brigadoon_ is basically a surreal fantasy (although not presented that
way). The fantasy doesn't make any sense at all.

Neither does the casting of Van Johnson, but what can you do?

Shoulda been Tor.

Brian

[Mark Steese]

Post by Stephen Cooke

Post by h***@brazee.net

Post by paramucho
Anyhow, SINGING IN THE RAIN has never done anything for me. Gene
Kelly got too much of his own poncy way in that one. He's only just
bearable in BRIGADOON.

But _Brigadoon_ is basically a surreal fantasy (although not
presented that way). The fantasy doesn't make any sense at all.

Neither does the casting of Van Johnson, but what can you do?

And let's not forget that winsome Scottish lass, Tula Finklea.

[Dr.Matt]

Re "singing in the rain": The bit about turning an arial backflip
while "dancing up the walls" was kinda neat, though.