how come others can do this so easily?

[hehn]

Last night DH and I went on a walk and we were talking about how come so many of our
friends have nice cars and nice furniture and nicer houses, and do not seem to be in
much debt. Granted, we both have student loans and they don't but geez. We both have
good jobs and are pretty frugal. I just don't understand why it seems so easy to some
people; what are we doing wrong?

DH's car is dying - an old '86 volvo. There are so many things so wrong with it that it
is no longer frugal to fix/maintain. So he's looking at other cars. Since we do a lot
of work on the house ourselves, we need at least one vehicle that can simultaneously be
used for cargo, and for commuting. After considerable searching, we're going to get a
Subaru Outback. We're going to buy one used because we can't afford one new.

We did visit some new car dealers and originally were bitten with new car fever. I can
see now how dealers have things set up psychologically - they make you fall in love
with the car and feel like you have to have it this instant. Luckily we didn't buy
anything and the fever subsided after a few days. (I once read that dealers know that
most people who walk in will buy a car within 3 days... and I swear, it took 3 days of
frantic financial analysis before we were like "no, we just don't feel comfortable
with this.")

Our friends are encouraging us to get a new car because we strongly desire something
that will not need work for the next 6-8 years. Right now our lifestyles are work work
work, and there is always an emergency or a project that needs to be done (with car,
house or work). I am constantly stressed out and overwhelmed. It's very seductive to
think about how uncomplicated it would be to have a new car, but that would mean an
extra year and a half of debt for us, and - though we're not sure - we may be changing
our lifestyle and DH may be going back to school so we may have to pare down to the
bare bones and take in roommates. (Don't worry - no more student loans though! :)

What I am wondering is, how does everyone else do it? How do people so easily sign on
and manage new cars and furniture and nice things? Our friends seem like they are
handling their finances well and are able to make their payments & save. The difference
between our comfort price level and the unreachable is about 6K. That's not a huge
amount if you think about it, so I find myself wondering 1. if it's wiser over the long
run to spend it and get a car that won't have 50K miles on it but instead be new, or
2. if our intution is good for us and we should listen to it.

Does anyone else look around them and wonder how everyone else does it? I am not a
successful frugalist, I think, because there is so much I want and need and I spend so
much time as it is working and wishing I could buy stuff. I am only frugal because I am
broke! And I could probably even be doing better - I don't follow all the advice on
cooking cheaply, etc. that I could.

How has your road been - have you always been frugal, or do you feel successful at
it? What secrets have helped you tame down the need for things?

Hehn

[barbie gee]

Post by hehn
Last night DH and I went on a walk and we were talking about how come so many of our
friends have nice cars and nice furniture and nicer houses, and do not seem to be in
much debt.

"do not seem to be in much debt"?
Until you know how much debt they are in, you can't assume anything.
They may have tens of thousands of dollars of credit card debt alone,
for all you know.

Post by hehn
Our friends are encouraging us to get a new car because we strongly desire something
that will not need work for the next 6-8 years.

And did you say, "no, we can't afford a NEW car right now." And how did
they reply??

Post by hehn
What I am wondering is, how does everyone else do it? How do people so easily sign on
and manage new cars and furniture and nice things? Our friends seem like they are
handling their finances well and are able to make their payments & save.

again, you say "seem like". What do you know for a fact? How much are
they REALLY saving? What do they have ready for retirement? For
college for the kids? For a rainy day? Or are they one paycheck away
from bankruptcy?

Post by hehn
The difference
between our comfort price level and the unreachable is about 6K. That's not a huge
amount if you think about it, so I find myself wondering 1. if it's wiser over the long
run to spend it and get a car that won't have 50K miles on it but instead be new, or
2. if our intution is good for us and we should listen to it.

Follow your intuition. Or, do both, buy a new car that is within your
price range.

Post by hehn
Does anyone else look around them and wonder how everyone else does it?

Nope. I don't ask, or care, about the "how", but more about the "why";
why do they think they need so much stuff, such expensive stuff....

Post by hehn
I am not a
successful frugalist, I think, because there is so much I want and need and I spend so
much time as it is working and wishing I could buy stuff.

You seem to be managing your "needs" just fine. You need to get over
the "wants". Only way to not live beyond your means is to either earn
more or spend less, or (least desirable) just finance your way into
"stuff, stuff, and more stuff". Always ask yourself, "want or need",
and then ask "why?, what for?".

[Nina]

Post by hehn
Last night DH and I went on a walk and we were talking about how come so many of our
friends have nice cars and nice furniture and nicer houses, and do not seem to be in
much debt.

I save for what I want and then buy it in cash. MOST of my stuff is as good
as or better than at least 3 of my peers with similar incomes. And when I
was getting mostof it, my income was probably half theirs. I made it a
priority to buy nice furniture and I saved for years. I also buy used things
and refurbish them, heck if someone else were selling the handpainted stuff
I have made, it would run $400 or so for things I made for about $100.
Takes planning, smarts, and a LOT of patience

[scorpiogirl]

Post by barbie gee
You seem to be managing your "needs" just fine. You need to get over
the "wants".

Agreed.

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by hehn
Last night DH and I went on a walk and we were talking about how come so many of our
friends have nice cars and nice furniture and nicer houses, and do not seem to be in
much debt. Granted, we both have student loans and they don't but geez. We both have
good jobs and are pretty frugal. I just don't understand why it seems so easy to some
people; what are we doing wrong?

Some people may have inherited money.
Some people may be good at playing the stock market.
Some people may be good at playing real estate.
Some people may be selling drugs on the side.
Some people may be identity theft thieves.
Some people may have no insurance.
Some people may be totally faking it.

The list goes on. Sit down with a competent CPA and ask what suggestions he or
she might have for you.

[Albert Wagner]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:06:17 GMT
***@hotmail.com wrote:
<snip>

Post by h***@hotmail.com
The list goes on.

<snip>

Indeed. If you and your friends make about the same amount of money and
they are living better than you, and you are more frugal, then in
additions to chickpea's list, they may simply be deep in debt. You
noted that they don't seem to be, but appearances can be deceiving.

[Jason]

Post by Albert Wagner
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:06:17 GMT
<snip>

Post by h***@hotmail.com
The list goes on.

<snip>
Indeed. If you and your friends make about the same amount of money and
they are living better than you, and you are more frugal, then in
additions to chickpea's list, they may simply be deep in debt. You
noted that they don't seem to be, but appearances can be deceiving.

I work for the cable company, and one of my jobs is bill collecting.
I am forever disconnecting the services of people that "appear" to
have it all. They have the boat, the nice house, the car and truck
etc.. They also can't afford half of it.

I must say I enjoy it :-)

Jason

[T.V.]

Post by Jason
I work for the cable company, and one of my jobs is bill collecting.
I am forever disconnecting the services of people that "appear" to
have it all. They have the boat, the nice house, the car and truck
etc.. They also can't afford half of it.
I must say I enjoy it :-)

That post made me smile. My DH and I also have been among the thousands who
have wised up. We now have dial-up, no credit cards, no credit cards, no leases
or bills on cars, and are still learning to do without. I must say that I am
giddy-er the more I can learn to do without.

Theresa
I blog, you blog, we all blog together.

http://itzbinfun.blogspot.com/

[Chuck]

Post by hehn
DH's car is dying - an old '86 volvo. There are so many things so wrong with it that it
is no longer frugal to fix/maintain. So he's looking at other cars. Since we do a lot
of work on the house ourselves, we need at least one vehicle that can simultaneously be
used for cargo, and for commuting. After considerable searching, we're going to get a
Subaru Outback. We're going to buy one used because we can't afford one new.

I'm not trying to persuade you one way or another but, the way I look at
this is that

1) For me, it's easier to budget a car payment than it is car repairs
2) Most of the time, you can get lower interest on financing on a new car
vs. a used car. Also the dealer may have some good incintives going that
could get the price of the new car down around the same price of the used
one.
3) My feelings is that most of the time in a used car, you are getting
someone elses headache.

Check out this webpage. It covers new and used buying tips.
http://www.carbuyingtips.com/

Go with your intuition.

Post by hehn
Does anyone else look around them and wonder how everyone else does it? I am not a
successful frugalist, I think, because there is so much I want and need and I spend so
much time as it is working and wishing I could buy stuff. I am only frugal because I am
broke! And I could probably even be doing better - I don't follow all the advice on
cooking cheaply, etc. that I could.

I feel the same way.

Our household income is in the 60's. We live paycheck to paycheck.

Alot of times we would like to eat out on Friday evening, but just flat out
don't have the money. Lately we have been struggling just to buy enough
groceries.

We don't go to clubs or movies. We don't rent movies from Blockbuster or
have cable or dish.

I feel that we have cut out all extra expenses other than DSL. But, I am
stuck with it until the contract is up.

We each have a cell phone, but I really don't know that I would consider
that a luxury. I feel that my wife needs one for security reasons and my
truck has almost 170,000 miles on it so who knows when it is going to break
down. We chose the free phones and are paying $64.99 for 800 minutes,
shared. That was the cheapest plan we could find at the time.

I often look at couples (not any one in particular) who the husband works at
Best Buy making $7 an hour and the wife works at Burger King making $6 an
hour. They have a child. They eat out a time or two a week, go to clubs and
movies. They may have an apartment and only one car, but how do they do it?
Their gross salary is half of mine. How do they do it? Where did I go wrong?

[SoCalMike]

Post by Chuck
I feel the same way.
Our household income is in the 60's. We live paycheck to paycheck.
Alot of times we would like to eat out on Friday evening, but just flat out
don't have the money. Lately we have been struggling just to buy enough
groceries.
We don't go to clubs or movies. We don't rent movies from Blockbuster or
have cable or dish.

then, uh, wheres the money going? i dont make nearly as much, yet pay all my
bills (including a mortgage) on time, and still have savings and a few bucks
left to go out pretty much whenever i want. and i live in one of the most
expensive counties in the nation.

[Chuck]

Post by SoCalMike
then, uh, wheres the money going? i dont make nearly as much, yet pay all my
bills (including a mortgage) on time, and still have savings and a few bucks
left to go out pretty much whenever i want. and i live in one of the most
expensive counties in the nation.

About a month after we got married, my wife hurt her back. That's when she
found out she was pregnant. With her being pregnant, they couldn't give her
pain medicine for her back. They took her off of work and put her in bed for
8 months. So... I lost her salary, but gained her bills. This got us way
behind from the start of the marriage. We never have been able to catch up.

My wife thought that credit cards were the way to get out of financial
trouble. She was WRONG! Naturally, it made it worse.

I would guess that the our total debt is less than $40,000. It's just that
we have several credit cards that are high interest and one large loan that
will be paid off in 7 years.

Last night at work we had our benefits meeting. They are raising our medical
insurance again. Up another 20% to close to $300 a month. Last year it was
raised 100%. The co-pays are going up as well. 120% increase with only a 2%
salary increase in the last year and hopefully 3% this year. This doesn't
even include dental, etc...

[barbie gee]

Post by Chuck

Post by SoCalMike
then, uh, wheres the money going? i dont make nearly as much, yet pay all

my

Post by SoCalMike
bills (including a mortgage) on time, and still have savings and a few

bucks

Post by SoCalMike
left to go out pretty much whenever i want. and i live in one of the most
expensive counties in the nation.

About a month after we got married, my wife hurt her back. That's when she
found out she was pregnant. With her being pregnant, they couldn't give her
pain medicine for her back. They took her off of work and put her in bed for
8 months. So... I lost her salary, but gained her bills. This got us way
behind from the start of the marriage. We never have been able to catch up.
My wife thought that credit cards were the way to get out of financial
trouble. She was WRONG! Naturally, it made it worse.
I would guess that the our total debt is less than $40,000. It's just that
we have several credit cards that are high interest and one large loan that
will be paid off in 7 years.
Last night at work we had our benefits meeting. They are raising our medical
insurance again. Up another 20% to close to $300 a month. Last year it was
raised 100%. The co-pays are going up as well. 120% increase with only a 2%
salary increase in the last year and hopefully 3% this year. This doesn't
even include dental, etc...

Is the kid in school yet? Maybe time for some part-time job for the wife?

[Chuck]

Post by barbie gee
Is the kid in school yet? Maybe time for some part-time job for the wife?

Yes, he is 9 now.
My wife is working full time out of our house.

[Fx199]

Post by Chuck
I would guess that the our total debt is less than $40,000. It's just that
we have several credit cards that are high interest and one large loan that
will be paid off in 7 years.

YEEEOWCHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No mortgage though?

[Fx199]

1) For me, it's easier to budget a car payment >>>than it is car repairs

You've got to be kidding me!!

I pay about 500 dollars in maintenence a year on a paid off truck. Payments and
full coverage insurance would be that much per month.
Doesn't sound frugal to me. You need help.

[Chuck]

Post by Fx199

1) For me, it's easier to budget a car payment >>>than it is car repairs

You've got to be kidding me!!
I pay about 500 dollars in maintenence a year on a paid off truck. Payments and
full coverage insurance would be that much per month.
Doesn't sound frugal to me. You need help.

Did I say it was cheaper to budget a car payment? No, I didn't

Personally, it's easier for me to budget $250 a month for a payment and not
worry about repairs that in is to have a transmission go out and have to
come up with $1200 or more within a days time.

I have a better peace of mind when my wife is driving a newer car,
especially when my young son is with her.

Why do I need help? Because we have different opinions?

[Andy]

Post by Chuck

Post by Fx199

1) For me, it's easier to budget a car payment >>>than it is car

repairs

Post by Fx199
You've got to be kidding me!!
I pay about 500 dollars in maintenence a year on a paid off truck.

Payments and

Post by Fx199
full coverage insurance would be that much per month.
Doesn't sound frugal to me. You need help.

Did I say it was cheaper to budget a car payment? No, I didn't
Personally, it's easier for me to budget $250 a month for a payment and not
worry about repairs that in is to have a transmission go out and have to
come up with $1200 or more within a days time.
I have a better peace of mind when my wife is driving a newer car,
especially when my young son is with her.
Why do I need help? Because we have different opinions?

Well Chuck, you don't need help, but your method of budgeting for
regular payments rather than repairs is not a money saver, or even
particularly more convenient.

If you just set up a separate bank account for auto repairs and put
the $250 a month into that account then you would have no problem
coming up with $1200 on short notice (assuming the car was polite
enough to wait 5 months for the account to build up). The addresses
the convenience issue.

I don't know if you are worried about your wife's safety in terms of
an auto accident, or her being stuck by the side of the road
somewhere. I have no proof, but I suspect that a good quality model
used car in reasonable condition is just as safe, in terms of
accidents, as a newer car. In terms of being stranded, I suspect the
extra cost of keeping a family always in newer cars would more than
cover a cell phone, occasional taxi rides and rentals while the car is
in the shop.

There is no doubt that constantly having a newer car creates the
illusion of less stress and hassle, but when you consider the
months/years you will have to work longer when you are in your 60s to
replace the extra money it costs to have newer cars I don't know if
its worth it.

Andy

[Chris Hill]

Post by Andy
There is no doubt that constantly having a newer car creates the
illusion of less stress and hassle, but when you consider the
months/years you will have to work longer when you are in your 60s to
replace the extra money it costs to have newer cars I don't know if
its worth it.

That's the real problem with the buy new philosophy; one study I've
heard about found that the least expensive thing to do was to buy a
car and keep it ten years. They didn't run the study any longer than
that, so longer may even be cheaper. From our experience I can't
really claim that an older car is much worse in the surprise
department. The only time we were ever left stranded that I can blame
on the vehicle was on a four-year-old vehicle. I've managed to catch
most other necessary repairs before they became necessary at the side
of the road. You have to pay attention to your vehicle, look at the
lights, listen to the noises, look out for anything new or different.
If you can do that, you are a lot less likely to be left somewhere you
don't want to be.

[Chuck]

Post by Andy
I don't know if you are worried about your wife's safety in terms of
an auto accident, or her being stuck by the side of the road
somewhere. I have no proof, but I suspect that a good quality model
used car in reasonable condition is just as safe, in terms of
accidents, as a newer car. In terms of being stranded, I suspect the
extra cost of keeping a family always in newer cars would more than
cover a cell phone, occasional taxi rides and rentals while the car is
in the shop.

No, I'm not worried about the safety issue. I feel that a decent 2004 car is
just as safe as a decent 1993 car.

My concern is her in a car that I don't have to worry about the car breaking
down on the side of the road, especially with my son in the car too.

I work from 8 pm till 6am, so if she drove a heap and was stranded on the
side of the road, I couldn't help her.

My wife also takes care of other children out of our house, and this is also
a concern when she has them in the car also.

I guess that I wasn't thinking when I made that statement, because I agree,
it's probably not "frugal" to feel this way, but I am more comfortable with
her in a newer vehicle.

Her car is a 99 model and had been paid off for a year now. Right now we
don't have to worry about making payments on her car but it is new enough
that I don't really worry about break downs either.

I drive a 93 model pickup with almost 170,000 miles on it. No, I don't want
her driving it. It has never left me stranded (knock on wood) since I bought
it several years ago, but with a vehicle that old and high mileage, I don't
want to take the chance either.

So... to whoever it was that said I need help, I'm still trying to figure
out why...

[barbie gee]

Post by Chuck
No, I'm not worried about the safety issue. I feel that a decent 2004 car is
just as safe as a decent 1993 car.
My concern is her in a car that I don't have to worry about the car breaking
down on the side of the road, especially with my son in the car too.
I work from 8 pm till 6am, so if she drove a heap and was stranded on the
side of the road, I couldn't help her.
My wife also takes care of other children out of our house, and this is also
a concern when she has them in the car also.
I guess that I wasn't thinking when I made that statement, because I agree,
it's probably not "frugal" to feel this way, but I am more comfortable with
her in a newer vehicle.

While the odds of a breakdown are lower, there's still NO guarantee that
a new car will NOT break down. You have to decide if this "impression"
of greater reliability and safety is worth the money you spend for it,
well, it's your peace of mind here. Most folks around here say that a
car starts to need major repairs after about 5 years. So, even the 1999
car should be considered reliable for another year or so. If you keep
up with the routine maintenance and get a full "check-up" of the brakes,
steering, tranny, it should be fine for a few years after that.
My 1995 Neon is starting to look shabby, but I got new tires on it last
year, keep up with the maintenance, and I still consider it a very
dependable car.

[Chuck]

Post by barbie gee
While the odds of a breakdown are lower, there's still NO guarantee that
a new car will NOT break down. You have to decide if this "impression"
of greater reliability and safety is worth the money you spend for it,
well, it's your peace of mind here. Most folks around here say that a
car starts to need major repairs after about 5 years. So, even the 1999
car should be considered reliable for another year or so. If you keep
up with the routine maintenance and get a full "check-up" of the brakes,
steering, tranny, it should be fine for a few years after that.
My 1995 Neon is starting to look shabby, but I got new tires on it last
year, keep up with the maintenance, and I still consider it a very
dependable car.

I never said that a newer car will never break down.
I feel that the chances are less that it will, and it more than likely mine
will still be in warranty.
Yes... (now I see the frugal people blowing their tops on this one) I do
purchase the extended warranties on my vehicles so I am covered up too about
75,000 miles or so..

[IleneB]

Post by Chuck
I never said that a newer car will never break down.
I feel that the chances are less that it will, and it more than likely mine
will still be in warranty.

I've seen how badly some people take care of their cars when they're
new. My plan was always to buy a sturdy cheap new car and run it
forever. A drunk totaled my first car, the second one was a lemon (1978
Rabbit) and then, finally, I got 11 years and 175K miles on a 1992
Mazda 323. I now have a new Toyota Matrix which I hope will take me
into retirement and past. I am a one-person, one-car household, and
drive 20 miles on the highway to night shifts. I feel a lot better
about new cars because of the obvious fact that they have less wear
and tear. However, my Mazda only really became unreliable in the last
year or so, and finally wasn't worth the money to keep it running.

Ilene B

[Fx199]

Post by Chuck
So... to whoever it was that said I need help, I'm still trying to figure
out why...

Well as others have stated your reasoning is is flawed in the context of being
frugal. I may end up repeating a bunch of stuff other people have said.
There is no guarantee any car at any time will not leave you stranded. It is
like putting premium gas into your car because you think you are being "nice"
to it. In 6 months you could have a fund which would cover your oh so worrysome
transmission. By the way, most people don't change their tranny fluid according
to proper maintenence schedules. Flush and fill your engine coolant every year
also folks. Old coolant can cost you lots of money in bad radiator, heater
core, intake manifold gaskets.
Wouldn't a cell phone bill be much cheaper than 250 dollars? What about the
full coverage insurance you must buy because you think you need something new?A
thousand a year? Are you afraid your child is going to have to pee waiting for
a ride in the event you "might" breakdown? What if she gets a flat?? Oh my god
Proper maintenence and your vehicle will be as reliable as any. All this is in
the context of keeping money in your pocket. I have two vehicles. One is a
paid off truck which has never left me stranded in almost 200,000 miles. I
would drive it across the country on a whim. My other car is a beater tercel
with 140,000 miles and no rust. Runs like a top. I bought it outright for 600
bucks. If I need to repair my vehicle I will do it myself and drive the little
car while I scrounge for cheap parts. That hasn't happened yet, I have always
been able to fix up little things on a Saturday. But I switch cars for the
better mileage when I feel like it. Saves me at LEAST 50% over paying someone
else to do the work. Also since it is a domestic vehicle parts are much much
cheaper. Foreign cars , their parts, and their repair centers will bleed you
dry. Even if you pay to have the maintenence done on your paid off car, you
will be way ahead. A good car is a paid-for car.
Keep your money in your pocket chuck.

[Chuck]

Post by Fx199

Post by Chuck
So... to whoever it was that said I need help, I'm still trying to figure
out why...

Well as others have stated your reasoning is is flawed in the context of being
frugal.

And I already admitted it probably wasn't "frugal".

Post by Fx199
There is no guarantee any car at any time will not leave you stranded.

I have already said that too.

Post by Fx199
Flush and fill your engine coolant every year
also folks. Old coolant can cost you lots of money in bad radiator, heater
core, intake manifold gaskets.

Don't forget the 60% rule. 60% coolant/antifreeze and 40% water. Never use
100% coolant.

Post by Fx199
What about the full coverage insurance you must buy because you think you

need something new?


All of my vehicles carry full coverage, new or used, paid for or not.

Post by Fx199
Are you afraid your child is going to have to pee waiting for
a ride in the event you "might" breakdown?

That comment pisses me off.

I am concerned about the safety of my wife and child. If I am at work and
they break down on the side of the road at 10pm, chances are I can't leave
work to get them. It could take an hour or longer for a tow truck to get to
them. THe state of Texas has the "courtesy patrol" that will help them, but
again, what are the chances if them being near by?

We live in a large town and believe it or not, there is crime that happens
here.

If my son needs to pee, he can hang it out the door and pee.

Post by Fx199
What if she gets a flat?? Oh my god

Would you want you wife, assuming you are a male, on the shoulder of a busy
freeway trying to change a tire with cars and trucks wizzing by 10 feet away
at 70 mph or more? Even if someone stopped to help, do you really trust
strangers these days?

Post by Fx199
Proper maintenence and your vehicle will be as reliable as any.

I repair equipment that cost in excess of 1.5 million per unit and we have
44 units at work. I believe that works out to 66 million dolars worth of
equipment and that doesn't count all of the other equipment that we use and
work on.

We have a strong PM program so you are preaching to the chior about PM's. I
don't need to hear it. 90 % of our work are PM's.

Post by Fx199
All this is in the context of keeping money in your pocket. I have two

vehicles. One is a

Post by Fx199
paid off truck which has never left me stranded in almost 200,000 miles. I
would drive it across the country on a whim. My other car is a beater tercel
with 140,000 miles and no rust. Runs like a top. I bought it outright for 600
bucks. If I need to repair my vehicle I will do it myself and drive the little
car while I scrounge for cheap parts.

I also have 2 vehicles, both paid off. A 93 Chevy truck with almost 170,000
miles and a 99 Ford Contour with about 75,000 miles.

I wouldn't drive my truck more than a couple of hundred miles away. Don't
trust it that far. It hasn't left me stranded yet, but just don't want to
take unnecessary chances. As far as the Countour goes, I would take it cross
country in a heart beat.

I do all of the repairs that I am able to myself. Saves me money and I know
the job is done right. I don't used "cheap parts". I buy new, quality parts
because I don't want to have to do the work again in 4 months.

Post by Fx199
A good car is a paid-for car.
Keep your money in your pocket chuck.

A couple of years ago I had a 64 Volkswagen bug that I paid cash for. I Will
admit that it was more of a project car than anything, but it was a daily
driver and my only transportation at the time before I bought my truck.

In a little over a years time I had to replace the complete brake system,
including lines, e-brake cables, etc, clutch, voltage regulator, carburetor,
fuel pump among other things. The engine that was in it eventually blew so I
had to buy another engine and install.

Before that I had an 83 Mercedes 300D Turbo Diesel that I paid cash for.
That car cost me out the ass for repairs.

Believe it or not, parts and labor where not that bad. It just broke down
often. I did most of the repair work myself , but Mercedes uses alot of
specialty tools.

Do you still stick to your story about a "paid for car" is a good car?

I don't believe it.

[Neil]

(snip)

Post by Chuck

Post by Fx199
What if she gets a flat?? Oh my god

Would you want you wife, assuming you are a male, on the shoulder of a busy
freeway trying to change a tire with cars and trucks wizzing by 10 feet away
at 70 mph or more?

BTW, fatalities in such situation seem to occur pretty regularly in my
state. I wouldn't attempt to change a tire at all in such
circumstances.

(snip)

Post by Chuck
Do you still stick to your story about a "paid for car" is a good car?
I don't believe it.

I'd say a "paid for car" is a good car, followed by a long list of
assumptions and "ifs," which could be summarized as "if it happens to
be a reliable and trustworthy car."

I've had the experience of having cars that were paid for, yet were
otherwise unreliable and untrustworthy. I'd say having such a car is
stressful and worse than having no car at all. All cars eventually get
to that point, which is why I prefer to own as few cars as possible.
(My family's not in a position now to be completely without a car.)

(snip)

[Karen Wheless]

Post by Neil
I've had the experience of having cars that were paid for, yet were
otherwise unreliable and untrustworthy. I'd say having such a car is
stressful and worse than having no car at all. All cars eventually get
to that point, which is why I prefer to own as few cars as possible.
(My family's not in a position now to be completely without a car.)

On the other hand, a family with two cars is going to have a lot more
options than a family with one - it's unlikely that both cars would be
under repair at once. If one car is in the shop, then the family could
probably maneuver around the problem with one - but if you only have one
(and little or no public transportation available, which is the case in
much of the U.S.) then you're in trouble.

The last time my car had extensive repairs, I had to rent a car for 5
days - at $50 per day (actually, I think it was more after the taxes,
fees, etc. It doesn't take long for that to add up to quite a large sum
of money.

Karen

[Neil]

Post by Karen Wheless

Post by Neil
I've had the experience of having cars that were paid for, yet were
otherwise unreliable and untrustworthy. I'd say having such a car is
stressful and worse than having no car at all. All cars eventually get
to that point, which is why I prefer to own as few cars as possible.
(My family's not in a position now to be completely without a car.)

On the other hand, a family with two cars is going to have a lot more
options than a family with one - it's unlikely that both cars would be
under repair at once.

With my family, we've been back and forth a few times with having only
one car vs. having two cars, so we've had experience with both
scenarios.

We found that it only took a little time to get used to having one
car. The last time we had only one car, we only rented a car once, and
that was because we couldn't all leave the same day for a vacation at
an obscure place that can't be reached except by car, and obviously
that was a pretty exceptional situation.

For things like getting to work, generally folks with fulltime jobs go
to one place and stay all day, so with public transportation and
carpooling (did that occasionally) there really was no need to have a
car during the day. (I could walk to restaurants if I wanted to go out
to lunch.) By the time we were back home after work, if we needed to
use the car then, we could.

Having only one car did require a little more planning, but only a
little more. It really was surprising to me how little adjustment was
required. And I was also surprised to see things like having much more
room in the driveway and many fewer papers, bills, taxes, insurance
stuff etc. to keep up with.

Post by Karen Wheless
If one car is in the shop,

I'll add that with more than one car, it always seemed that at least
one car was nearing time for service, needed gas, or some little thing
was always going on, so sooner or later, we wouldn't have the
situation of "one car is in the shop," we also knew the other car
would inevitably be in the shop. With one car, that's the only car
we'd worry about. One of the things I liked best about having only one
car is that it seemed to cut our vulnerability to car hassles waaay
down. Less cars meant less real and potential car problems (all of
which are inevitable) way down.

Post by Karen Wheless
then the family could
probably maneuver around the problem with one - but if you only have one
(and little or no public transportation available, which is the case in
much of the U.S.) then you're in trouble.

It can require some planning. Where I live, there is some public
transportation, but the biggest problem seems to be that so many
people are almost completely unaware of it. I've met people who've
never ridden a public bus, not ever.

Post by Karen Wheless
The last time my car had extensive repairs, I had to rent a car for 5
days - at $50 per day (actually, I think it was more after the taxes,
fees, etc. It doesn't take long for that to add up to quite a large sum
of money.

A lot of local dealers here will provide chauffeur services back and
forth to the service departments, work or home--I've used that when I
had my car serviced at the dealer. And some repair places will give me
a lift if I ask. Or I could take a taxi or get a friend to help me out
temporarily. I live in a smallish city and lots of the small towns
I've seen have taxi services, if not public transportation.

Anyway, someone in MCFL recently calculated that including all
expenses, a car cost about $291/month, which would be $3,492/year.
While of course I hope you have fewer or no needed car repairs in the
future, that $250 you spent on the rental is comparatively small--you
probably spend more on car insurance and other mandatory car costs
that many people take for granted and don't question.

So what's my point? That spending $250 for an occasional rental is
much cheaper than owning another car, just so that other car would be
available when you need a repair. Furthermore, I'll add that that
other car will bring along its own expenses and hassles, so an
occasional rental is probably much cheaper for you.

[Fx199]

Post by Neil
I'd say a "paid for car" is a good car, followed by a long list of
assumptions and "ifs," which could be summarized as "if it happens to
be a reliable and trustworthy car."

Or you could look at it this way.

I know this car, I know it's been taken care of.

I know it's not a lemon, it's proven itself.

Post by Neil
(My family's not in a position now to be completely >without a car.)

yeah that sounds frugal too LOL

[Mike Vermeulen]

Post by Neil
I've had the experience of having cars that were paid for, yet were
otherwise unreliable and untrustworthy. I'd say having such a car is
stressful and worse than having no car at all. All cars eventually get
to that point, which is why I prefer to own as few cars as possible.
(My family's not in a position now to be completely without a car.)

For those who are able, there is something to be said for not owning a
car at all. In 2001, I sold my 9 year old car and went on a bicycle
tour for a year. When I returned, I decided not to get a car right
away since summer was coming and all my regular places (work,
groceries, etc) were within 10 miles. In the fall, I intended to buy
a car, but it didn't reach high enough on the priority list and
suddenly it was an interesting challenge to see if I could ride
through the winter. As summer 2003 came, it was again warm enough
that it wasn't necessary... I'm now coming on the second winter
riding and not in any big hurry to purchase an automobile.

Here is what I've learned works for me as I reach 20 months of carfree
living (plus another 12 cycling on the road):
-- I've optimized the "regular" weekly schedule of work, shopping,
etc; so that I live close enough and an automobile is not
needed. It takes more frequent smaller loads by the supermarket
than the big stock up...
-- Approximately once a month, I do end up with errands, visiting
family or out of town items that are really more convenient with
an automobile. I can rent for those occasions less expensively
than I can own a car. Within a mile of where I live are four
rental places including Enterprise with their $9.99/day weekend
specials. Its tough to own/depreciate a car at that rate.
-- It does pay to carry my own insurance, rather than purchasing
liability insurance from the rental agency. In my state, with
my driving record, age, etc it would take 16 days of paying
rental car insurance rates to equal what I pay in a year for
"non-owner liability insurance", plus I am now also covered at
an amount greater than state minimums. Counting occasional
business trips, I'll rent at least 16 days a year.
-- Parts of the country I've lived [New England] it would be
tougher than here [Colorado]. In a Colorado winter there might
average 6-10 days that one thinks, "gee this isn't as pleasant
as I'd like". Rest of time, bundle up and go. Other places
I've lived [California] would be easier.
-- I feel a lot more connected to outdoor things such as weather,
phase of the moon, sunrise/sunset etc. I have seen deer,
snakes, turtles, foxes, geese, etc on my relatively urban
route. This past summer it was fun to ride past a set of
goslings and see how quickly they grew up.
-- My outlook on life doesn't feel more constrained, though I do
sometimes end up planning a bit more (for a trip to take next
time I rent) or deferring an occasional trip because not worth
it to me to ride three hours...

Carfree living is not for everyone (or perhaps even most), but works
here and is a frugal thing for me. Someday, I expect to purchase a
car again, but right now am feeling fortunate I don't need one yet.

--mev, Mike Vermeulen

[127.0.0.1]

Post by Mike Vermeulen

Post by Neil
I've had the experience of having cars that were paid for, yet were
otherwise unreliable and untrustworthy. I'd say having such a car is
stressful and worse than having no car at all. All cars eventually get
to that point, which is why I prefer to own as few cars as possible.
(My family's not in a position now to be completely without a car.)

For those who are able, there is something to be said for not owning a
car at all.

not owning a car is only feasible in either very urban settings or
small towns that have services clustered



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because of the current email spam attacks my email account is not included,
reply via the newsgroups or ask for a valid email address.

[Neil]

Post by Mike Vermeulen

Post by Neil
I've had the experience of having cars that were paid for, yet were
otherwise unreliable and untrustworthy. I'd say having such a car is
stressful and worse than having no car at all. All cars eventually get
to that point, which is why I prefer to own as few cars as possible.
(My family's not in a position now to be completely without a car.)

For those who are able, there is something to be said for not owning a
car at all. In 2001, I sold my 9 year old car and went on a bicycle
tour for a year. When I returned, I decided not to get a car right
away since summer was coming and all my regular places (work,
groceries, etc) were within 10 miles. In the fall, I intended to buy
a car, but it didn't reach high enough on the priority list and
suddenly it was an interesting challenge to see if I could ride
through the winter. As summer 2003 came, it was again warm enough
that it wasn't necessary... I'm now coming on the second winter
riding and not in any big hurry to purchase an automobile.

I've sometimes found that if I can do without something for awhile
that I've taken for granted or think I "need," such as a car, I
discover that I have a lot less "need" than I thought and realize I
can continue to do without it. (One of the things I like about camping
is it makes me realize how little I really need.)

Post by Mike Vermeulen
Here is what I've learned works for me as I reach 20 months of carfree
-- I've optimized the "regular" weekly schedule of work, shopping,
etc; so that I live close enough and an automobile is not
needed.

I think a lot of us who think we "need" a car only believe that
because we unquestioningly accept that we will have work, shopping,
and home separated by distances that are almost guaranteed to require
driving and a car. I meet people who say "I need to drive because our
new house is so far from everything," yet they don't think to
themselves that buying a house located in such an inconvenient place
could be a mistake.

Post by Mike Vermeulen
It takes more frequent smaller loads by the supermarket
than the big stock up...

I used to be able to walk to work, shopping, and home, and like you, I
made more frequent and smaller trips. But that also meant I usually
had fresher food. Sometimes I'd just get fresh groceries on the walk
home from work, then cook them as soon as I got home. I ate a lot of
fresh food then. My point is that frequent, small trips can give you
better, fresher food and meals.

Post by Mike Vermeulen
-- Approximately once a month, I do end up with errands, visiting
family or out of town items that are really more convenient with
an automobile. I can rent for those occasions less expensively
than I can own a car. Within a mile of where I live are four
rental places including Enterprise with their $9.99/day weekend
specials. Its tough to own/depreciate a car at that rate.

Agree. Exactly.

Post by Mike Vermeulen
-- It does pay to carry my own insurance, rather than purchasing
liability insurance from the rental agency. In my state, with
my driving record, age, etc it would take 16 days of paying
rental car insurance rates to equal what I pay in a year for
"non-owner liability insurance", plus I am now also covered at
an amount greater than state minimums. Counting occasional
business trips, I'll rent at least 16 days a year.
-- Parts of the country I've lived [New England] it would be
tougher than here [Colorado]. In a Colorado winter there might
average 6-10 days that one thinks, "gee this isn't as pleasant
as I'd like". Rest of time, bundle up and go. Other places
I've lived [California] would be easier.
-- I feel a lot more connected to outdoor things such as weather,
phase of the moon, sunrise/sunset etc.

Another good point. Spending a lot of time riding around in a shiny
metal box is alienating.

Post by Mike Vermeulen
I have seen deer,
snakes, turtles, foxes, geese, etc on my relatively urban
route. This past summer it was fun to ride past a set of
goslings and see how quickly they grew up.

There are things you just can't see unless you're on foot or on a
bike. People in cars can't see that stuff and can't know what they
miss.

When I was single, I usually did have a car. I found some good deals
on cars via walking, BTW, because I noticed details like cars that
seemed to slowly be gathering dust in a driveway, I'd see the tags
were slightly out of date, and with other little details like that. If
I was in the market, sometimes I'd knock on the front doors of the
houses, it would turn out they weren't using the car (for example,
they had a new baby and wouldn't be using an old sports car, plus
they'd like to get rid of it and make some money), so I got some good
deals that way.

Another advantage I had as a buyer was that I really didn't need the
car. One of the nicest cars I bought was a car I found the above way.
I drove it and made an offer, which the owner rejected, which was OK
by me, because I didn't need the car. A few weeks later, the owner
called me and asked me to come pick the car up.

Anyway, the irony of walking and biking for me was that it made it
easy to find good deals on cars, and buy without any desparation.

Post by Mike Vermeulen
-- My outlook on life doesn't feel more constrained, though I do
sometimes end up planning a bit more (for a trip to take next
time I rent) or deferring an occasional trip because not worth
it to me to ride three hours...
Carfree living is not for everyone (or perhaps even most), but works
here and is a frugal thing for me. Someday, I expect to purchase a
car again, but right now am feeling fortunate I don't need one yet.

Thanks for your post. I've never been entirely carfree, but I've found
that the closer I am to that, the happier I am. I think we'll always
have a fmily car, and right now we have another car (inherited), but
in the next year or so I think we'll cut back to one and to driving
less.

[Cheryl Perkins]

Post by Neil
I think a lot of us who think we "need" a car only believe that
because we unquestioningly accept that we will have work, shopping,
and home separated by distances that are almost guaranteed to require
driving and a car. I meet people who say "I need to drive because our
new house is so far from everything," yet they don't think to
themselves that buying a house located in such an inconvenient place
could be a mistake.

When I moved to my present city, my main criteria in finding a place to
live was that it would be as close as possible to the places I went
frequently. As a result, I sold the car I had, and didn't replace it,
except for another brief job in a rural area requiring commuting. I find
not having a car a positive convenience and pleasure - there are so many
things I *don't* have to worry about or spend money on, from parking to
gas to maintenance.

Post by Neil

Post by Mike Vermeulen
It takes more frequent smaller loads by the supermarket
than the big stock up...

I used to be able to walk to work, shopping, and home, and like you, I
made more frequent and smaller trips. But that also meant I usually
had fresher food. Sometimes I'd just get fresh groceries on the walk
home from work, then cook them as soon as I got home. I ate a lot of
fresh food then. My point is that frequent, small trips can give you
better, fresher food and meals.

I go in the grocery far more than I need to, since I pass one on my way
home from work. However, my major grocery shopping is toted home in a
taxi, and any bulk purchases are made then.

[Andy]

Post by Mike Vermeulen
Carfree living is not for everyone (or perhaps even most), but works
here and is a frugal thing for me. Someday, I expect to purchase a
car again, but right now am feeling fortunate I don't need one yet.
--mev, Mike Vermeulen

Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to write that post, I enjoyed reading it.
Over the past few years I have been slowly but steadily reducing my
car usage/dependence, and its neat to read about the experiences of
someone who has gone all the way.

I don't know if its some weird pathology of mine, but as the years go
by I find driving more and more of an unpleasant experience. I try to
structure my life to avoid driving as much as possible. Whenever I
have to drive somewhere I think about ways that I could have arranged
things so that I could have avoided the trip or done it using the
bus/bike. When I drive, I am concious of putting pollutants in the
air, creating a lot of noise pollution, increasing the risk of
accidental death, creating more repair/maintence bills, adding to
traffic congestion and thereby more road building, etc. Its just not
fun or relaxing for me, so I avoid it.

Andy

[Fx199]

Post by Chuck
And I already admitted it probably wasn't "frugal".

Yep, and here in this group, we HATE PAYMENTS!

HATE "rent to own" in other words.

Post by Chuck
Don't forget the 60% rule. 60% coolant/antifreeze and 40% water. Never use
100% coolant.

True, and if you have GM Dexcool, be even more vigilant. Also be aware if you
mix dexcool and green antifreeze t gels up.

Post by Chuck
All of my vehicles carry full coverage, new or used, paid for or not.

Who's your favorite musician? "ludicrous"?
Why on earth would you get full coverage on something that's paid for? No sense
in that.

Post by Chuck

Post by Fx199
Are you afraid your child is going to have to pee waiting for
a ride in the event you "might" breakdown?

That comment pisses me off.

You made me laugh!

Post by Chuck
I am concerned about the safety of my wife and child. If I am at work and
they break down on the side of the road at 10pm, chances are I can't leave
work to get them.

Well there is AAA, or another little known organization called "friends and
family".
Surely you would go help your friends or family in an emergency.

Post by Chuck
Would you want you wife, assuming you are a male, on the shoulder of a busy
freeway trying to change a tire with cars and trucks wizzing by 10 feet away
at 70 mph or more?
Would you want you wife, assuming you are a male, on the shoulder of a busy
freeway trying to change a tire with cars and trucks wizzing by 10 feet away
at 70 mph or more?

Nope, my advice would be to limp somewhere safe on the rim. Steel wheels are
cheap.
That advice would be for anyone, not just someone's wife.

Post by Chuck
Before that I had an 83 Mercedes 300D Turbo Diesel that I paid cash for.
That car cost me out the ass for repairs.
Believe it or not, parts and labor where not that bad. It just broke down
often. I did most of the repair work myself , but Mercedes uses alot of
specialty tools.

See my comments about foreign cars being money guzzlers add the diesel factor
to it and it increases exponentially.
Diesels require expensive work invariably. Not worth the slightly better
mileage. I wouldn't own one. Nope I can honestly say i would not call a diesel
foreign car from the 70's reliable at all. The only foreign cars i would call
reliable are Toyota and Honda and there you are just paying for the name.

Your truck hasn't stranded you yet. Don't live in such fear. Usually a vehicle
will give you slight signs before actually not taking you to where you want to
go. Another thing I thought was scary was your wife driving other children
around. Lots of liability there. I would be way more scared of a traffic
accident then your wife's car "maybe" not starting someday " if". Put the extra
money towards your son's school.

[Chuck]

Post by Fx199

Post by Chuck
All of my vehicles carry full coverage, new or used, paid for or not.

Who's your favorite musician? "ludicrous"?
Why on earth would you get full coverage on something that's paid for? No sense
in that.

Becuase it doesn't cost that much more (I have checked) and I don't have
$10,000 laying around to replace any of my vehicles.

Post by Fx199

Post by Chuck

Post by Fx199
Are you afraid your child is going to have to pee waiting for
a ride in the event you "might" breakdown?

That comment pisses me off.

You made me laugh!

Why do you think that is funny?
You made a comment that offended me, and now you are laughing about it.
You are a real asshole buddy.

Post by Fx199

Post by Chuck
I am concerned about the safety of my wife and child. If I am at work and
they break down on the side of the road at 10pm, chances are I can't leave
work to get them.

Well there is AAA, or another little known organization called "friends and
family".
Surely you would go help your friends or family in an emergency.

It depends on whats going on at the time at work. Sometimes I could leave,
other times I can't.

Post by Fx199
Nope, my advice would be to limp somewhere safe on the rim. Steel wheels are
cheap.
That advice would be for anyone, not just someone's wife.

Thats fine if she is close to an exit, but you still have to worry about
other assholes barreling down at 70 mph plus. Alot of drunks around here.
They tend not to stay in thier lane. Sometimes you are 5 or more miles
between exits. Thats a long way to limp on a rim, even at a slow speed.

[Fx199]

Post by Chuck

Post by Fx199

Post by Chuck

Post by Fx199
Are you afraid your child is going to have to pee waiting for
a ride in the event you "might" breakdown?

That comment pisses me off.

You made me laugh!

Why do you think that is funny?

It was just ironic I guess, the response, if you think about it.

Post by Chuck
Thats fine if she is close to an exit, but you still have to worry about
other assholes barreling down at 70 mph plus. Alot of drunks around here.
They tend not to stay in thier lane. Sometimes you are 5 or more miles
between exits. Thats a long way to limp on a rim, even at a slow speed.

yeah it depends on where you live. I carry a can of fix a flat with me along
with jumper cables, tow rope, etc.

Post by Chuck
Alot of drunks around here.
They tend not to stay in thier lane.

I'd be on the shoulder with the flashers on?
Too bad about "all them drunks" in that area.

[sd]

Post by Fx199
See my comments about foreign cars being money guzzlers add the diesel factor
to it and it increases exponentially.
Diesels require expensive work invariably. Not worth the slightly better
mileage. I wouldn't own one. Nope I can honestly say i would not call a diesel
foreign car from the 70's reliable at all.

Spoken like someone who's never owned one. Most diesels get half-again
the mileage their gasoline-powered brethren/sisten get. In my case, that
works out to about 17 mpg -- a great improvement over "slightly better."

Gassers require "expensive work invariably," too. I can't think of any
internal-combustion engine that will last forever, so why single out
diesels? I fully expect 300,000 miles from my diesel, and there's lots
of actual evidence out there to suggest that that's not unreasonable. In
fact, when I see a German car from the 70s or early 80s around here
(where salt and rust are prevalent), it is almost invariably a diesel,
well out of proportion to their representation in the original sales
mix.

Then there's the matter that folks paying big bucks for OTR trucks,
construction equipment, and railroad locomotives buy diesels, not gas
engines. I don't think they do that so they can hear the clatter. They
do it because it pays.

I won't contest that foreign cars can be more expensive to maintain.
OTOH, at one time, it was a wash because American cars were such junk it
didn't matter that the parts were cheap. But it doesn't matter if the
car or truck is a diesel.

sd

[127.0.0.1]

Post by sd

Post by Fx199
See my comments about foreign cars being money guzzlers add the diesel factor
to it and it increases exponentially.
Diesels require expensive work invariably. Not worth the slightly better
mileage. I wouldn't own one. Nope I can honestly say i would not call a diesel
foreign car from the 70's reliable at all.

Spoken like someone who's never owned one. Most diesels get half-again
the mileage their gasoline-powered brethren/sisten get. In my case, that
works out to about 17 mpg -- a great improvement over "slightly better."

you are right, the OP hasn't a clue about diesels, my full size diesel
gets from 30 to 40 mpg depending on driving conditions, fuel right now
is almost $.20 a gallon cheaper and in 9 years and 180k+ miles I have
never had to do ANY work on the engine, change the oil, change the
tires, change the brakes, change the filters and fluids ( all normal
wear items) and the car just goes and goes.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because of the current email spam attacks my email account is not included,
reply via the newsgroups or ask for a valid email address.

[Chuck]

Post by 127.0.0.1

Post by sd
Spoken like someone who's never owned one. Most diesels get half-again
the mileage their gasoline-powered brethren/sisten get. In my case, that
works out to about 17 mpg -- a great improvement over "slightly better."

you are right, the OP hasn't a clue about diesels, my full size diesel
gets from 30 to 40 mpg depending on driving conditions, fuel right now
is almost $.20 a gallon cheaper and in 9 years and 180k+ miles I have
never had to do ANY work on the engine, change the oil, change the
tires, change the brakes, change the filters and fluids ( all normal
wear items) and the car just goes and goes.

I agree with you on the diesel issue.

Obviously "fx199" has never owned a diesel, so all people who do or have
owned them are going to hell.

While my car didn't get anywhere close to 30 to 40 mpg, it did get decent
mileage. That mileage seems a little high for a full size vehicle.

Like you said, just perform regular preventative maintenance on a diesel and
there is no reason that it won't get 500,000 miles or more. The car or truck
will wear out before the engine will.

I guess that I should say these are my opinions and I can't say that every
diesel will perform like that.

[Fx199]

Post by Chuck
Like you said, just perform regular preventative maintenance on a diesel and
there is no reason that it won't get 500,000 miles or more. The car or truck
will wear out before the engine will.

Couldn't you say that about anything on the road even a Yugo? First you are
afraid to drive a truck with 200,000, now you are saying keep it for 500,000,
shouldn't you do what you just said instead of buying new and having payments?

Post by Chuck
I guess that I should say these are my opinions and I can't say that every
diesel will perform like that.

Same here, all I can comment is what I have seen happen to my friends diesel
trucks, and how much I know it costs to fix a Volkswagon period.

Post by Chuck
That mileage seems a little high for a full size vehicle.

I agree!

A cool car to look at now is the redesigned Prius.
Looks more like a Camry now, gets great mileage.
I was looking through a old Popular Mechanics today and saw that the old Omni
got 50 mpg highway! That would be nice.

[Chuck]

Post by Fx199

Post by Chuck
Like you said, just perform regular preventative maintenance on a diesel and
there is no reason that it won't get 500,000 miles or more. The car or truck
will wear out before the engine will.

Couldn't you say that about anything on the road even a Yugo? First you are
afraid to drive a truck with 200,000, now you are saying keep it for 500,000,
shouldn't you do what you just said instead of buying new and having payments?

On top of being a plain ol asshole, you need glasses to.
When did I ever say I was going to keep my truck for 500,000 miles?
I said a diesel engine should last 500,000 miles, probably more if taken
care of properly.
My truck is not a diesel.
As far as a gasoline engine reaching 500,000 miles, I'm sure you will find
some that have done it, but I would say they are few and far between.

[Fx199]

Post by Chuck
My truck is not a diesel.
As far as a gasoline engine reaching 500,000 miles, I'm sure you will find
some that have done it, but I would say they are few and far between.

How many miles do you think taxi cabs get put on them?

[Chuck]

Post by Fx199

Post by Chuck
My truck is not a diesel.
As far as a gasoline engine reaching 500,000 miles, I'm sure you will find
some that have done it, but I would say they are few and far between.

How many miles do you think taxi cabs get put on them?

Never owned one so I don't know.

[Fx199]

Post by Chuck

Post by Fx199
How many miles do you think taxi cabs get put on them?

Never owned one so I don't know.

I didn't think you did.
They use the same cars available to the general public.

[JazzMan]

Post by Fx199

Post by Chuck

Post by Fx199
How many miles do you think taxi cabs get put on them?

Never owned one so I don't know.

I didn't think you did.
They use the same cars available to the general public.

Yes, and those cars receive a whole lot more maintenance
than regular cars get, spend most of their time running and
fully warmed up (cold starts are responsible for close to
90% of the wear in an engine), etc. Apples and pizzas.

JazzMan

[Fx199]

Post by JazzMan
Yes, and those cars receive a whole lot more maintenance
than regular cars get,

Yep, my point exactly. except for oil changes. They go longer. Consumer reports
uses taxi's to study different oils.

Post by JazzMan
cold starts are responsible for close to
90% of the wear in an engine), etc. Apples and pizzas.

I don't know about that. Engine wear to the point of failing (if properly
maintained) Should be hundreds of thousands of miles. There is a pre start
pressurizer available to pressurize your oil before starting if that's a
concern. it's basically a hydraulic cyclinder, I looked at getting one once.
Decided to just go with mobil one oil. I'd be more worried about electronics
going bad, or the tranny, rear diff.
apples and pears ;-D

[127.0.0.1]

Post by JazzMan

Post by Fx199

Post by Chuck

Post by Fx199
How many miles do you think taxi cabs get put on them?

Never owned one so I don't know.

I didn't think you did.
They use the same cars available to the general public.

Yes, and those cars receive a whole lot more maintenance
than regular cars get, spend most of their time running and
fully warmed up (cold starts are responsible for close to
90% of the wear in an engine), etc. Apples and pizzas.

nonsense, my MB diesel is used as a taxi all around the world, I do
minimal maintenance and I've been driving the car for 9+ years.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because of the current email spam attacks my email account is not included,
reply via the newsgroups or ask for a valid email address.

[Chuck]

Post by Fx199

Post by Chuck

Post by Fx199
How many miles do you think taxi cabs get put on them?

Never owned one so I don't know.

I didn't think you did.
They use the same cars available to the general public.

That reply didn't answer your question though, did it?

I'm pretty sure that cab companies have a real good PM program on their
cars.

I didn't say that none of the gasoline cars will make it over 100,000 now,
did I? There are exceptions.

Also, in my city the cabs have an age limit, and while I don't remember what
it is, I don't think it's all that old, so they can't rack up too many miles
here.

[Fx199]

Post by 127.0.0.1
you are right, the OP hasn't a clue about diesels, my full size diesel
gets from 30 to 40 mpg depending on driving conditions, fuel right now
is almost $.20 a gallon cheaper and in 9 years and 180k+ miles I have
never had to do ANY work on the

that

Post by 127.0.0.1
works out to about 17 mpg

<sniP>

Oh yeah I've had a diesel before.
It was a 88 VW Golf diesel.
It was a pretty decent car.
It was more expensive to fix than an american make.
What kind of car are you talking about and what kind of mileage are you
comparing it to??
I like the idea of diesels alot but I have my ideas why they have the potential
to be very expensive to repair. I have some friends that are farmers and have
to have diesels for power reasons, not to mention they have a lot of diesel
fuel. These trucks get worked on at the dealers all the time compared to my
truck. I like the VW diesel, did you know there is a European diesel that gets
82 mpg???
Why can't we get that car here??
What scares me about the TDI is how complex the engine is.
This engine needs a timing belt every 55,000,.
that's 800 dollars at the dealers to do. I can buy a lot of gas for 800
dollars. Who do you know who can work on it that you trust? I venture to say it
would be harder to find a specialist who knows what they're doing compared to
fixing a domestic gas engine.
It also has a turbocharger on it. Can you imagine having to get that repaired?
Here's what i would consider some reliable diesels, but since they are older
vehicles it is hard to recommend them to people.
Older pickups. mazda, isuzu, toyota.
Non turbo VW's from mid 80's and up.
A lot of info at tdiclub.com. Diesels need their engine oil changed alot too.
People with diesels which one do you have? Japanese diesels are available in
Europe but not here unfortunately.
If you really are crazy about studying up ona VW TDI of course they can be a
good car.
However buying one outright can cost 20grand+.
Not frugal. Just an opinion

[Bonita and/or William F. Kale]

Post by Chuck

Post by Fx199
Well as others have stated your reasoning is is flawed in the context of

being

Post by Fx199
frugal.

And I already admitted it probably wasn't "frugal".

Everyone has a different comfort level. When you're dealing with money
decisions, one of the facts you have to deal with is your own psychology.

There's nothing wrong with reading other people's views, but only you know how
you feel, and if you're willing to give up other things, no reason you can't
have your car payment. (But not that -and- a big phone bill, -and- a vacation
every year, -and- orthodontia for the kids. Choices have to be made, but they
have to be the choices you & your wife are comfortable with.).

Bonita

[Chuck]

Post by Bonita and/or William F. Kale

Post by Chuck

Post by Fx199
Well as others have stated your reasoning is is flawed in the context of

being

Post by Fx199
frugal.

And I already admitted it probably wasn't "frugal".

Everyone has a different comfort level. When you're dealing with money
decisions, one of the facts you have to deal with is your own psychology.
There's nothing wrong with reading other people's views, but only you know how
you feel, and if you're willing to give up other things, no reason you can't
have your car payment. (But not that -and- a big phone bill, -and- a vacation
every year, -and- orthodontia for the kids. Choices have to be made, but they
have to be the choices you & your wife are comfortable with.).
Bonita

While I agree with your statement that only I know what my comfort level is
and may be willing to give up different things, I disagree about your
statement that I can't have a car payment, big phone bill, vacation and
orthodontia for the kids.
Only I know that and if I can afford that it shouldn't be a problem.
Does "frugal" mean you can't spend an extra penny on anything?
Not in my book.
I feel that I deserve a luxury every now and again, be it a car payment or a
vacation...
While I admit I am probably not as frugal as most in here, I am more frugal
than alot of people in the country.
But... I do see alot of good idea's in this NG and I think ya'll are
starting to work on me!

[Neil]

Post by Chuck

Post by Chuck

Post by Fx199

1) For me, it's easier to budget a car payment >>>than it is car

repairs

Post by Chuck

Post by Fx199
You've got to be kidding me!!
I pay about 500 dollars in maintenence a year on a paid off truck.

Payments and

Post by Chuck

Post by Fx199
full coverage insurance would be that much per month.
Doesn't sound frugal to me. You need help.

Did I say it was cheaper to budget a car payment? No, I didn't
Personally, it's easier for me to budget $250 a month for a payment and not
worry about repairs that in is to have a transmission go out and have to
come up with $1200 or more within a days time.
I have a better peace of mind when my wife is driving a newer car,
especially when my young son is with her.
Why do I need help? Because we have different opinions?

Well Chuck, you don't need help, but your method of budgeting for
regular payments rather than repairs is not a money saver, or even
particularly more convenient.
If you just set up a separate bank account for auto repairs and put
the $250 a month into that account then you would have no problem
coming up with $1200 on short notice (assuming the car was polite
enough to wait 5 months for the account to build up). The addresses
the convenience issue.

I see your point, but IMHO having a savings budget to handle sudden
emergencies (like the unexpected $1200 repair) only deals with part of
the stress of driving an unreliable car. A big part of the stress of
such a car is not knowing whether you can trust and expect the car to
do what you need when you need it.

When I was single, I could have a buggy car, because I didn't really
need to get around a lot and I had substitute transportation
available, like walking to work. Now with a family, I need to have at
least one trustworthy vehicle for emergencies. I don't have to make
payments to have such a car at the moment, but if I felt I needed a
trustworthy car, and I had to make payments to have a new car that
would be trustworthy, I'd consider financing a car, even though I hate
debt.

Post by Chuck
I don't know if you are worried about your wife's safety in terms of
an auto accident, or her being stuck by the side of the road
somewhere. I have no proof, but I suspect that a good quality model
used car in reasonable condition is just as safe, in terms of
accidents, as a newer car. In terms of being stranded, I suspect the
extra cost of keeping a family always in newer cars would more than
cover a cell phone, occasional taxi rides and rentals while the car is
in the shop.

But I wouldn't want to have to deal with the cell phone, taxi rides,
etc. As I see it, I want a car that's reliable and trustworthy, or no
car at all.

Post by Chuck
There is no doubt that constantly having a newer car creates the
illusion of less stress and hassle, but when you consider the
months/years you will have to work longer when you are in your 60s to
replace the extra money it costs to have newer cars I don't know if
its worth it.

I agree that having a newish car that's reliable and trustworthy will
cost something more than you or I might like. But to me it's just not
worthwhile to own anything that can't predictably live up to my needs
and expectations. It's too much hassle and stress for me.

[Colleen Porter]

Post by Andy
I don't know if you are worried about your wife's safety in terms of
an auto accident, or her being stuck by the side of the road
somewhere. I have no proof, but I suspect that a good quality model
used car in reasonable condition is just as safe, in terms of
accidents, as a newer car. In terms of being stranded, I suspect the
extra cost of keeping a family always in newer cars would more than
cover a cell phone, occasional taxi rides and rentals while the car is
in the shop.

What you say makes good logical sense, but for someone who has been
through that nightmare, it just isn't convincing.

We had a not-too-old used car, and one day when I was driving with a
baby in the back seat, the gas pedal got stuck wide open. I could not
get it to stop revving, not even with the emergency brake. I finally
was able to maneuver off the road, cut the engine, and it eventually
stopped, just feet shy of a telephone pole.

About a month later, we were driving down a major road and it suddenly
went "thunk" and the fuel pump had died. Fortunately, it was not a
busy time of day--or undoubtedly we would have caused a pile up.

So we bought a new car, and paid cash for it so as not to have debt
hanging over our head. It has never caused a day of trouble in five
years.

And yes, you can argue the statistics all you want, but it is the
nightmares that leave the lasting impression and tend to fuel our
decisions :)

CKP

[Fx199]

Post by Colleen Porter
So we bought a new car, and paid cash for it so as not to have debt
hanging over our head. It has never caused a day of trouble in five
years.

That's the sign of a good money manager- paying cash. It has been a good car,
hopefully you will keep it another five to ten years.

[Merry Stahel]

Post by hehn
What I am wondering is, how does everyone else do it? How do people so easily sign on
and manage new cars and furniture and nice things? Our friends seem like they are
handling their finances well and are able to make their payments & save. The difference
between our comfort price level and the unreachable is about 6K. That's not a huge
amount if you think about it, so I find myself wondering 1. if it's wiser over the long
run to spend it and get a car that won't have 50K miles on it but instead be new, or
2. if our intution is good for us and we should listen to it.
Does anyone else look around them and wonder how everyone else does it? I am not a
successful frugalist, I think, because there is so much I want and need and I spend so
much time as it is working and wishing I could buy stuff. I am only frugal because I am
broke! And I could probably even be doing better - I don't follow all the advice on
cooking cheaply, etc. that I could.
How has your road been - have you always been frugal, or do you feel successful at
it? What secrets have helped you tame down the need for things?

Read YOUR MONEY OR YOUR LIFE.

Then you need to make a differentiation on WANT and NEED.

A lot of what you are saying sounds as if you WANT.

The car issue sounds as if you NEED.

$6K isn't a lot, until you average out how many hours you have to work
to pay it off. Include time to get ready and to go too and from work.
Include hours you stayed late because someone asked you to or you're a
salaried employee. Include clothing, car maintenance, and other
special things you do to keep the job. Is it still worth it?

As far as your neighbors and friends, you care too much about their
lives. Start looking at your life, how you and your DH want to spend
it, and forget the rest of the world, except how it applies to you and
what you can do to make it a better place than before.

D you really want to eat peanut butter and jelly for three years to
pay off $6K? Do you really never want to go out to a restaurant once
a month because you can't afford it, to pay off $6K? Don't look at
what your neighbors are doing with their $6K. Instead, look at the
things you'll be doing WITHOUT, to pay off that $6K.

Then decide, is it worth it?

Trust me - this advice comes from a person who was such a shopaholic
that my bumper sticker used to be "Born To Shop!" I knew where all
the good stuff was in stores and where to get what.

Debt-free is a lot better feeling than having all new furntiture, new
cars, big house and lots of stuff.... and $100,000+ in debt because of
it.

Your choice.

Merry


Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!
http://community.webshots.com/user/merrystahel

[Holly E. Ordway]

Post by hehn
Last night DH and I went on a walk and we were talking about how
come so many of our friends have nice cars and nice furniture and
nicer houses, and do not seem to be in much debt.

As others have pointed out, the operative word is "seems." People are
comfortable talking about what they *have* but generally not so
forthcoming about what they *owe* or can't afford. Opinions may also
differ on what constitutes "saving": I know people who think they're
totally all set because they contribute to their 401k, while I think
that's just a starting point.

Post by hehn
After considerable searching,
we're going to get a Subaru Outback. We're going to buy one used
because we can't afford one new.

I think you're still thinking in terms of "we have fewer nice things
than our friends, we're deprived." - just something in the way you say
"we can't afford one new." It seems like you thought about the cost
and how it fit into your budget - how about "It makes more sense
financially to buy one used." How many of your friends are burdened
with hefty car loan payments, I wonder?

Because cars are such a large expense, I'd recommend trying to think
outside the box even more. I did a quick search on prices of used
Subaru Outbacks and came up with something like $25,000. That seems
like a hell of a lot of money to me.

Have you considered getting a really inexpensive compact hatchback?
Yes, I know you need to haul things for your house - but what,
exactly? I have a Hyundai Accent and I am continually impressed with
the sheer amount of stuff I can fit in it with the rear seats back - I
would not be surprised at all if it were as much as a small SUV, with
a bit of careful arrangement of stuff. Most recently I fit 5 fully-
assembled small bookcases in it. A bit tricky to get the all in, but I
did (and four would have been a cinch). If I don't have a passenger, I
can slide the front passenger seat up all the way, and lean it
forward, and have even more space for very long items.

Think about the stuff you haul. What is it? Could you haul the same
stuff, but in multiple loads? If there's stuff that's occasionally
*really* big, can you enlist a friend? Rent a truck? I bet the
occasional one-day rental of a truck would set you back a lot less
than a hefty car payment for an SUV.

Post by hehn
Our friends are encouraging us to get a new car because we strongly
desire something that will not need work for the next 6-8 years.

Who has to pay the bill, you or your friends? It's always easier to
spend someone else's money than your own!

Post by hehn
Does anyone else look around them and wonder how everyone else does
it? I am not a successful frugalist, I think, because there is so
much I want and need and I spend so much time as it is working and
wishing I could buy stuff. I am only frugal because I am broke! And
I could probably even be doing better - I don't follow all the
advice on cooking cheaply, etc. that I could.

I think being frugal works for me because I don't view it as
deprivation, at all. I have totally disconnected from the consumer
must-spend treadmill... I buy things that I genuinely want and need,
not things that I "should" want. I really have no idea whether my
neighbors and friends have "nicer" furniture... I'm sure some of them
might laugh at our used and slightly dinged-up furniture, but I don't
see how having a matched bedroom set of fancy stuff would generate any
extra happiness, and certainly not enough to justify the price tag.

Stop comparing your lifestyle to what you see on the surface of your
friends' lifestyles. If you have a friend who's close enough to
*really* share the details, debt as well as savings, that might be
interesting or helpful, but in general, you're just setting yourself
up to feel bad about your life, when you ought to feel *good* -- you
are making an effort to save and spend wisely, and you're willing to
look at the financial implications of your purchases.

It also sounds to me like you are having "I want to buy stuff" as a
reaction to your life being stressful and overworked. I would suggest
trying to think through your situation and see how you really feel
about things. Maybe you don't *really* want all that stuff after all.
Maybe you really want more time and less stress.

--Holly

[s***@meadows.pair.com]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 13:20:53 -0500, "Holly E. Ordway"

Post by Holly E. Ordway
It also sounds to me like you are having "I want to buy stuff" as a
reaction to your life being stressful and overworked. I would suggest
trying to think through your situation and see how you really feel
about things. Maybe you don't *really* want all that stuff after all.
Maybe you really want more time and less stress.

This was the impression I got too. I would certainly think
it's a possibility.

Pat

[lpogoda]

Holly E. Ordway wrote in message ...

Post by Holly E. Ordway
Have you considered getting a really inexpensive compact hatchback?
Yes, I know you need to haul things for your house - but what,
exactly?

This is one I never get. I've been a homeowner for about 25 years. Once
out in the sticks (20 mile trip for a quart of milk) and once in the middle
of town. I've never had a "hauling" type of vehicle, just plain 2 or 4 door
cars. Don't quite see the need. If the original poster needs a vehicle (or
two) to get to work and back and money's tight, get a car. The once or
twice a year most people need to haul something (what, a load of gravel, a
load of mulch, a load of manure for the garden?) have it delivered and be
done with it. Cheaper in the long, ah, haul.

[Sewmaster]

Post by hehn
Last night DH and I went on a walk and we were talking about how come so many of our
friends have nice cars and nice furniture and nicer houses, and do not seem to be in
much debt. <snip>

My suspicion is your friends are much deeper in debt than you know.

Also, work to get over the "wants."
Once you do, you will find it very liberating.

Sewmaster

[Bonita and/or William F. Kale]

Post by Sewmaster

Post by hehn
Last night DH and I went on a walk and we were talking about how come so many of our
friends have nice cars and nice furniture and nicer houses, and do not seem to be in
much debt. <snip>

My suspicion is your friends are much deeper in debt than you know.

Also, there's another thing going on here. When you look at the outsides of people's
lives, you can see what they -do- spend money on, but it's a lot harder to notice what
they -don't- spend it on. You wind up with a friend with a boat and a friend with a new
car and another with the living room all fixed up, and your brain takes that as meaning
that everyone has -all- of those things, but they don't.

As for debt, I remember two remarks by people I know. One, who always has a nice car,
said casually, "Thank goodness for home equity loans," and I realized she was paying for
something (it may have been a car, but I'm not sure) from that loan--a mortgage on her
house for a depreciating asset. Oops.

The other had to watch her finances. Her kid's car was stolen while he was visiting home
from college. Normal response, as I see it, would be to drive the kid back to college (it
wasn't far--maybe 45 minutes). My friend's response was to give the kid one of the cars
she and her husband had, and to go out and -lease- a car. Argh! They didn't even spend
one day trading rides to work or taking the bus--just, "Need car. Need car NOW!"

We have never driven what anyone would call a nice car, but we have never thought that a
sudden $1000 expense would bankrupt us, either. We've always had the money in the bank.
This is a luxury a lot of our friends don't have.

Another luxury we treated ourselves to was to pay for the kids' college. Yes, we had
scholarship help, and yes, we put it on the home equity loan (education is not what I call
a depreciating asset), and yes, they went to a state school--but now, in this tough job
market, they don't have loans to pay back, and that's 100% worth it to me.

Bonita

[unknown]

Post by Sewmaster

Post by hehn
Last night DH and I went on a walk and we were talking about how come so many of our
friends have nice cars and nice furniture and nicer houses, and do not seem to be in
much debt. <snip>

My suspicion is your friends are much deeper in debt than you know.
Also, work to get over the "wants."
Once you do, you will find it very liberating.
Sewmaster

One never knows. I just became aware that one of my contemporaries
who I thought was in comfortable retirement circumstances has
refinanced his home twice to get some extra cash and has borrowed
money from his son who had to take it out of this 401k. He also
recently told me that he had cut up ALL his credit cards.

He has told me before that "He is not a cheap person" Perhaps he
should become a little "cheaper"

Old_Timer

[mtm]

hehn ...

[mtm]

hehn ..
.
I'm gonna guess you guys are (like) teachers. or haven't achieved full
stride in your chosen fields yet, with the student loans and all. Right?
These may be the "good" times you guys look at later, and wish the hell
you were back where you are now feeling that pangs of 'want' instead of
being burdened with the things you then "own", that then, really own
you. :(

I'll bet you guys have guys have great sex too. :) I'll bet your friends
who a are buried up to their eyeballs in debt, don't.

Hey, lighten up. The ol' Volvo can/will get fixed, sooner or later the
loans'll get paid off.
Then you too can get buried up to your eyeballs in debt, and you'll be
just like your friends.

If you guys have your health, an occasional full stomach, a roof over
your head, and you guys care about each other, that's really all there
is.
The other stuff is all bullshit, little lady.

moto

[SoCalMike]

Post by mtm
I'll bet you guys have guys have great sex too. :)

and sex gets worse when you fight about money all the time :)

[s***@meadows.pair.com]

Post by hehn
Does anyone else look around them and wonder how everyone else does it? I am not a
successful frugalist, I think, because there is so much I want and need and I spend so
much time as it is working and wishing I could buy stuff.

It's possible that you are using the things you BUY to fill
a void in your life caused by spending so much time working!
I think a lot of people do this.

Maybe if you worked less, you'd be happier and therefore
feel less need to spend.

Post by hehn
am only frugal because I am
broke! And I could probably even be doing better - I don't follow all the advice on
cooking cheaply, etc. that I could.
How has your road been - have you always been frugal, or do you feel successful at
it? What secrets have helped you tame down the need for things?

I feel successful at it, yes.

I came to frugality through ethics (morals - you could call
it either). This was a long time ago. I believed then - as
I believe now - that the most ethical way to live is to live
simply so as to minimize one's effect on the environment and
so as to *try* to use not more than one's fair share of the
earth's resources - leaving more for others - and to
contribute what one can to the welfare of others.

OK: that was my initial motive.

Since then my income level has varied sharply. I've been
very comfortably off, quite poor, very comfortably off
again, and very poor - in that order (married and well off,
divorced and supporting myself as a university secretary for
a long time, remarriage, then health problems forcing us
both to stop working).

I tried to maintain my level of frugality through all the
changes in income because I thought it was the right thing
to do. I still think so.

What I've learned about being frugal over the last thirty
years (more or less - about that long anyway) is serving us
well now that it's a necessity.

My husband is English and from a poor family, and he knows a
thing or two about being frugal as well.

My parents were young adults during the Depression and my
husband's parents were young adults during World War II (in
the UK, in which civilians were more seriously affected than
they were in the USA by shortages and rationing) - so our
parents knew something about frugality too (except my father
who was always wildly extravagant).

Pat

[SoCalMike]

Post by s***@meadows.pair.com
Maybe if you worked less, you'd be happier and therefore
feel less need to spend.

strangely, i find i spend more money when im on vacation, or on my days off.
during the week, im lucky if i do anything other than work, go to the gym,
and hang out with the girlfriend.

[Arri London]

Post by hehn
Last night DH and I went on a walk and we were talking about how come so many of our
friends have nice cars and nice furniture and nicer houses, and do not seem to be in
much debt. Granted, we both have student loans and they don't but geez. We both have
good jobs and are pretty frugal. I just don't understand why it seems so easy to some
people; what are we doing wrong?

<snip>

How can you possibly know how much debt those people have? Do you see
their credit card statements and bank statements?
Certainly I have one friend who is always one month's salary away from
bankruptcy and hasn't paid off a credit card balance since she was a
student. She doesn't think she's in much debt at all.

[juliehh]

i second merry's advice to read Your Money or Your LIfe. you'll get a whole
new slant on your stressed out working life.

julie

[Kate]

Post by hehn
Last night DH and I went on a walk

instant. Luckily we didn't buy

Post by hehn
anything and the fever subsided after a few days. (I once read that dealers know that
most people who walk in will buy a car within 3 days... and I swear, it took 3 days of
frantic financial analysis before we were like "no, we just don't feel comfortable
with this.")

heh. we recently went through that too. decided we could live with
what we have, with minor repairs and improvements, all courtesy of a
little time at the local salvage yard. we needed a larger seating
capacity and $35 bought me a new jumpseat for my Volvo wagon. dh's
car didn't lock and $45 bought him a new hatch latch.

Post by hehn
Our friends are encouraging us to get a new car because we strongly desire something
that will not need work for the next 6-8 years. Right now our lifestyles are work work
work, and there is always an emergency or a project that needs to be done (with car,
house or work). I am constantly stressed out and overwhelmed.

invest some time in you and your wellbeing. take a yoga or Nia class
(www.nia-nia.com). learn meditation. buy a good yoga book. I used
"Richard Hittleman's 30 day yoga meditation plan"
by Richard L. Hittleman a long time ago and found it to be very
fruitful. when I say yoga changed my life, I really mean it.

It's very seductive to

Post by hehn
think about how uncomplicated it would be to have a new car, but that would mean an
extra year and a half of debt for us, and - though we're not sure - we may be changing
our lifestyle and DH may be going back to school so we may have to pare down to the
bare bones and take in roommates. (

hmmm.... a year and a half of debt for a decrease in stress?
considering that you might be able to keep that car for 12-15 years
depending on what you buy? and you won't have car repairs and
emergencies due to failed transportation?

but what about bikes??? I got everywhere by bike for years and even
did so after my daughter was born. it was only after I moved too far
out of town that I got out of the habit.... and I would move closer in
if my family would. But, even if you do buy that new car, think about
getting around by bike. think of the money you'll save on fuel,
parking, brakes, tires, etc...

Post by hehn
What I am wondering is, how does everyone else do it? How do
Does anyone else look around them and wonder how everyone else does it? I am not a
successful frugalist, I think, because there is so much I want and need and I spend so
much time as it is working and wishing I could buy stuff. I am only frugal because I am
broke! And I could probably even be doing better - I don't follow all the advice on
cooking cheaply, etc. that I could.
How has your road been - have you always been frugal, or do you feel successful at
it? What secrets have helped you tame down the need for things?

I think about the needs of the planet. our lifestyle, even pared
down, is so unsustainable that it's frightening. we can't maintain
that. I get the willies when I shop at malls and other conventional
"shopping as entertainment" places- 90% of the buying and selling is
unnecessary!

I don't watch TV either. I can imagine that watching TV would make
one believe that everyone has a tidy house, beautiful furniture,
clothing and bodies, and that everyone else has a witty script.
That's unrealistic. we don't need those images or the advertising
that goes along with it.

I read a lot of novels. I spend very little on them since I buy used.

sometimes I fill an online shopping basket, look at the total and
realise I don't need to pay for all that, and then store it. that
helps a lot if I feel the "need" for soemthing that I don't really
need.

I agree with most posters- until you see the financial statements of
those others, you don't know what their debt load is.

=====
Kate, http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~kolina/advantages-of-formula.html
Mom to Ursula (8.9), Sage (6), Benno (2.7) In the months after
9/11,
a shocked nation wanted to believe the best of its leader, and Mr.
Bush
was treated with reverence. But he abused the trust placed in him,
pushing a partisan agenda that has left the nation weakened and
divided.
Yes, I know that's a rude thing to say. But it's also the truth. ~
Paul
Krugman

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EvidenceBased/

[lpogoda]

hehn wrote in message ...

Post by hehn
How has your road been

On the whole, not bad, though there have been a few major bumps.

Post by hehn
- have you always been frugal,

Pretty much, but without feeling deprived. As a student, when I couldn't
afford much, I bought the best brand of coffee around, for instance, but
stopped buying soda and drank water instead. I couldn't afford good coffee
and good soft drinks though I could afford cheap coffee and cheap soft
drinks. But the cheap stuff would have made me feel poor and deprived. The
good stuff let me feel pampered and self-indulgent.

Post by hehn
or do you feel successful at
it?

Yes, though I suppose some people who hang out around here would think
otherwise. My family (parents and siblings) think otherwise. My daughter
blanched when, the last year I was consulting, I told her I paid $xxxxx to
agents who found me jobs, overlooking that those jobs not only paid those
fees but netted me several times more, and was uncomprehending when I
explained that I'd negotiated them down from the regionally prevailing rate.

Post by hehn
What secrets have helped you tame down the need for things?

Acquiring them.

Once you have a sofa and chairs and TV in the living room, or a washer and
dryer, or a lawnmower, or a kitchen table and chairs, or a bed, cookware,
dishes, flatware, etc. you don't need to get them again for a good long
time, so your spending for household stuff tends to naturally decline over
time.


When I was young, so much younger than today, I had a lot less money to
spend, so I did without a lot of things I have now. My (our) approach to
frugality has always been to buy the absolute best we could afford (but shop
extensively to be as sure as possible that we were getting as good a deal as
possible), on the theory that it's cheaper in the long run to buy quality
once than it is to buy something to just get by for awhile and then buy
again and again.

It sounds like you're a young couple just starting out. There's a natural
impulse to want to have everything that was available to you when you lived
in your parents' houses, and it's equally natural to overlook the fact that
they probably spent 20 years or more getting it all. You need to relax a
little - it's OK to not have the latest furniture or the newest carpet.
It's OK to accept hand me downs from relatives (if it's stuff you can use
and freely given). It's OK to not be the most prosperous household on the
block.

Buy what you need at the price you can afford. To my mind, buying a brand
new car just before you expect your income to be cut by half and your
expenses are going to ratchet up because one of you is going back to school
is less than optimal, even crazy. You need reliable transportation of
course, but you don't _need_ a new car right now. Maybe one of your
prosperous-er neighbors would sell to you instead of trading in on the next
car.

Expenses tend to go down and income up as the years go buy. I'd concentrate
on necessities and on paying off the loans right now. And you seem to have
a bad case of "keeping up with the Joneses". Stop comparing yourselves to
neighbors who may be in other stages of life. Compare yourselves to
yourselves - are you doing better this year than last year? Are you
climbing, however slowly, out of debt? Did you get a raise this year? Have
you put a little "mad money" aside? Is there more in your 401k? Are you,
in short, making progress (however you personally define the term)? Make a
little time for yourself. Take your breaks at work. Leave your desk at
lunch. If you're so absolutely indispensable at the office that you can't
do these things, learn to think of yourself as dynamic and decisive. If you
can take public transportation instead of driving to work, read the paper or
a book, take up knitting, or daydream.

Oh, and don't spend more than you feel comfortable with, for anything.

[Me]

Post by hehn
Last night DH and I went on a walk and we were talking about how come so many
of our friends have nice cars and nice furniture and nicer houses, and do not seem
to be in much debt. Granted, we both have student loans and they don't but geez. We
both have good jobs and are pretty frugal. I just don't understand why it seems so easy
to some people; what are we doing wrong?

How do you know your friends are not in debt? If they own nice homes and
nice cars, I suspect they're deeply in debt. For a home, being in debt
is not typically a bad thing though, but it is bad if they can't service
other debt and meet their other financial needs. Unless your friends
allow you to review their financial records, you really have no idea
what their financial situation is. Just looking at the possessions of
other people is not an accurate way to assess their debt.

[Chris Hill]

Post by hehn
Last night DH and I went on a walk and we were talking about how come so many of our
friends have nice cars and nice furniture and nicer houses, and do not seem to be in
much debt. Granted, we both have student loans and they don't but geez. We both have
good jobs and are pretty frugal. I just don't understand why it seems so easy to some
people; what are we doing wrong?
DH's car is dying - an old '86 volvo. There are so many things so wrong with it that it
is no longer frugal to fix/maintain. So he's looking at other cars. Since we do a lot
of work on the house ourselves, we need at least one vehicle that can simultaneously be
used for cargo, and for commuting. After considerable searching, we're going to get a
Subaru Outback. We're going to buy one used because we can't afford one new.

And you'll get screwed everytime you need maintenance. Try buying
something that is cheap to maintain for a change. Do you need awd?
If you live in the city, I doubt it. If you need to do a bit of
hauling, buy a small pickup (Toyota makes really durable ones, and
Fords/gm's are pretty easy to fix with cheap parts available
everywhere). Also, many home stores will deliver for a small fee,
thus saving the need for even this much of a vehicle.

I think You'd be surprised to see how much debt your friends really
have. If people had their indebtedness tatooed on their forheads,
life would be very interesting.

[sd]

Post by Chris Hill
Also, many home stores will deliver for a small fee,
thus saving the need for even this much of a vehicle.

The local Home Depots and Menard's stores (Midwestern chain) have
flatbed trucks that can be rented at the store for about $20 for a
couple of hours. Not particularly cheap compared to other rental
agencies, but they're right at the store and it's an easy way to save
money compared to buying a pick-em-up truck or a huge SUV.

sd

[Chris Hill]

Post by sd
The local Home Depots and Menard's stores (Midwestern chain) have
flatbed trucks that can be rented at the store for about $20 for a
couple of hours. Not particularly cheap compared to other rental
agencies, but they're right at the store and it's an easy way to save
money compared to buying a pick-em-up truck or a huge SUV.

They don't have that around here, but for about the same money they'll
bring a load of whatever it is with a forklift to unload it.

[Arri London]

Post by Chris Hill

Post by sd
The local Home Depots and Menard's stores (Midwestern chain) have
flatbed trucks that can be rented at the store for about $20 for a
couple of hours. Not particularly cheap compared to other rental
agencies, but they're right at the store and it's an easy way to save
money compared to buying a pick-em-up truck or a huge SUV.

They don't have that around here, but for about the same money they'll
bring a load of whatever it is with a forklift to unload it.

The delivery charges around here are around USD40.00. Truck rental is
about 20 for one hour.

I just haul our building supplies in or on our little Audi. Works just
fine. Even my little Fiat I used to have was perfectly capable of
hauling turf and a gas-powered rototiller for our yard, back when we
tried a lawn. Needed longer braking distance of course :)

[Andy]

Hi,

Is your old Volvo really non-frugal to maintain? Try this analysis.
Take the total repair expenses for the last year and multiply by 1.5
to come up with a maintenance/repair budget for the car. Then divide
by the number of miles you put on it in an average year to get the
cost per mile. Then do the same analysis except use the total price
of the car you plan to buy over the number of miles you think you can
get before you will have high maintenance/repair costs (i.e. 130,000
miles for a good Japanese car). How does the price per mile compare?

You may just be sick of living like students and having old dumpy
stuff, which is perfectly understandable. But don't let that
revulsion at having a junky car propel you into something that will
strain your finances and get you in debt.

Andy

Post by hehn
Last night DH and I went on a walk and we were talking about how come so many of our
friends have nice cars and nice furniture and nicer houses, and do not seem to be in
much debt. Granted, we both have student loans and they don't but geez. We both have
good jobs and are pretty frugal. I just don't understand why it seems so easy to some
people; what are we doing wrong?
DH's car is dying - an old '86 volvo. There are so many things so wrong with it that it
is no longer frugal to fix/maintain. So he's looking at other cars. Since we do a lot
of work on the house ourselves, we need at least one vehicle that can simultaneously be
used for cargo, and for commuting. After considerable searching, we're going to get a
Subaru Outback. We're going to buy one used because we can't afford one new.
We did visit some new car dealers and originally were bitten with new car fever. I can
see now how dealers have things set up psychologically - they make you fall in love
with the car and feel like you have to have it this instant. Luckily we didn't buy
anything and the fever subsided after a few days. (I once read that dealers know that
most people who walk in will buy a car within 3 days... and I swear, it took 3 days of
frantic financial analysis before we were like "no, we just don't feel comfortable
with this.")
Our friends are encouraging us to get a new car because we strongly desire something
that will not need work for the next 6-8 years. Right now our lifestyles are work work
work, and there is always an emergency or a project that needs to be done (with car,
house or work). I am constantly stressed out and overwhelmed. It's very seductive to
think about how uncomplicated it would be to have a new car, but that would mean an
extra year and a half of debt for us, and - though we're not sure - we may be changing
our lifestyle and DH may be going back to school so we may have to pare down to the
bare bones and take in roommates. (Don't worry - no more student loans though! :)
What I am wondering is, how does everyone else do it? How do people so easily sign on
and manage new cars and furniture and nice things? Our friends seem like they are
handling their finances well and are able to make their payments & save. The difference
between our comfort price level and the unreachable is about 6K. That's not a huge
amount if you think about it, so I find myself wondering 1. if it's wiser over the long
run to spend it and get a car that won't have 50K miles on it but instead be new, or
2. if our intution is good for us and we should listen to it.
Does anyone else look around them and wonder how everyone else does it? I am not a
successful frugalist, I think, because there is so much I want and need and I spend so
much time as it is working and wishing I could buy stuff. I am only frugal because I am
broke! And I could probably even be doing better - I don't follow all the advice on
cooking cheaply, etc. that I could.
How has your road been - have you always been frugal, or do you feel successful at
it? What secrets have helped you tame down the need for things?
Hehn

[Neil]

Post by hehn
Last night DH and I went on a walk and we were talking about how come so many of our
friends have nice cars and nice furniture and nicer houses, and do not seem to be in
much debt.

Well, you really don't know what their financial situation is. It's
sorta a taboo topic for many people. So I wouldn't worry about what
your peers have and do.

Post by hehn
Granted, we both have student loans and they don't but geez. We both

have

Post by hehn
good jobs and are pretty frugal. I just don't understand why it seems so easy to some
people; what are we doing wrong?

I really don't know enough to say. I suggest you get a financial
planner and work out a budget.

(snip)

Post by hehn
Our friends are encouraging us to get a new car because we strongly desire something
that will not need work for the next 6-8 years.

Doesn't everybody?

Post by hehn
Right now our lifestyles are work work
work, and there is always an emergency or a project that needs to be done (with car,
house or work). I am constantly stressed out and overwhelmed.

It sounds to me like you don't really have a plan or priorities,
you're just taking on every activity that comes your way, and as a
result you're in a stressed-out frenzy and unhappy. That's a very easy
state to get into, as you've discovered.

You need to work out a plan, priorities, and a budget.

Post by hehn
It's very seductive to
think about how uncomplicated it would be to have a new car, but that would mean an
extra year and a half of debt for us, and - though we're not sure - we may be changing
our lifestyle and DH may be going back to school so we may have to pare down to the
bare bones and take in roommates. (Don't worry - no more student loans though! :)

I'd say avoid all debt, including car debt.

BTW, keep in mind that a newer car will raise any property taxes and
car insurance bills also.

Post by hehn
What I am wondering is, how does everyone else do it? How do people so >easily sign on

As in sign on to borrow money to buy more stuff? The answer is that
sellers and lenders make it very easy to borrow and get in debt. Debt
from loans is often more profitable than whatever the seller makes
when you buy.

Post by hehn
and manage new cars and furniture and nice things? Our friends seem like >they are
handling their finances well and are able to make their payments & save.

If they were smarter, they'd avoid anything where they have to make
payments. It's possible your friends are in financial trouble, or
headed for it, but you don't know it, but then again, that's not for
you to worry about.

Don't think about your peers, think about yourself. Figure out where
you want to go and what matters to you, then make a plan to get there.

Post by hehn
The difference
between our comfort price level and the unreachable is about 6K. That's not a huge
amount if you think about it, so I find myself wondering 1. if it's wiser over the long
run to spend it and get a car that won't have 50K miles on it but instead be new, or
2. if our intution is good for us and we should listen to it.
Does anyone else look around them and wonder how everyone else does it? I am not a
successful frugalist, I think, because there is so much I want and need and I spend so
much time as it is working and wishing I could buy stuff.

You need to get a plan and a budget, so you know where you're going
and how you can get there.

Post by hehn
I am only frugal because I am
broke!

Yet as you point out, you "work work work." You need to get a plan and
a budget so that your work can produce something that will enable you
to accomplish your goals.

Post by hehn
And I could probably even be doing better - I don't follow all the

advice on

Post by hehn
cooking cheaply, etc. that I could.

I'd say don't focus on the nickel and dime stuff. Instead, get an
overall plan and a budget, then stick to it.

Due to not having those, you suddenly want to buy a car to replace the
old, dying car. If you'd had a plan, you might've anticipated this
situation long ago, and by now you might have been saving enough
monthly to buy a replacement car.

Post by hehn
How has your road been - have you always been frugal, or do you feel successful at
it? What secrets have helped you tame down the need for things?

I try to remind myself that there's really very little I need and in
many cases, there are much cheaper substitutes. For example, better
planning and using public transportation can greatly reduce dependence
on cars. I also find that the less stuff I own, the less stress I
feel.

I suggest you shop around and ask people you respect for suggestions
for financial planners. Also go to library and bookstores and look for
books of the following type:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/002-3705485-3727246

There are many similar books.

The gist of what I'm saying: Set priorities, make a budget and a plan,
and stick to that. Otherwise, you'll get continue to be stressed out
and be stuck in your stressful lifestyle, where you "work work work"
yet feel you're not getting anywhere.

[hehn]

Well, I went out and bought 'your money or your life' (got it used on Amazon) - can't wait
until it gets here. I realize after reading your posts that what I am largely responding to
is the constant stress and the desire for more time. I want an uncomplicated life - one
where I can make breakfast without seeing our infestation of cave crickets and thinking
about how impossibly difficult it is to eradicate them and how I will probably have to rip
the kitchen apart to get to their nesting areas (hence the desire for a vehicle that can
haul sheetrock, etc.). Then I would like to make breakfast with actual food that I, in
another world, had time to get and actually put in the fridge. Then I'd like to go to work
in a car that doesn't need any work. Then I'd like to come home and not smell the cat urine
in the carpet & drapes that the previous disgusting owner saturated the house with.

Granted, it's a LOT better than it used to be - I have ripped up some of the carpet and
replaced it (had to treat the slab with special sealing paint), and the LR carpet has been
cleaned 80 million times. Now it only smells when it's humid and luckily the smell is much
fainter than it used to be. But I will tell you, it gets me down!

Also some of my problem is that I want to get ahead on my student loans and other expenses,
so I have been freelancing in addition to fulltime work. So I am basically working all day
and all night and haven't had a minute to myself for downtime, hobbies, etc. I hate that.

Oh well. I guess I understand what I need a little better now. I don't need the new car as
much as I need less complications.

As far as the furniture issues, I'm lucky in not having had to pay for much - most of my
stuff came off the street or from family. But I do desire greatly not to live with beat up
old stuff. There's something cluttered-looking about it, and I work very hard to keep the
place clean to compensate.

Thanks for all your input. I guess the important thing is that I haven't done anything
yet! Even if I *want* lots of stuff, if I can keep myself from buying it, that's probably a
small accomplishment. I have made progress over the past year - have put a slight dent in
my student loans & other debt, etc. It just seems like progress is so slow!

Hehn

[Merry Stahel]

Post by hehn
Well, I went out and bought 'your money or your life' (got it used on Amazon) - can't wait
until it gets here. I realize after reading your posts that what I am largely responding to
is the constant stress and the desire for more time. I want an uncomplicated life - one
where I can make breakfast without seeing our infestation of cave crickets and thinking
about how impossibly difficult it is to eradicate them and how I will probably have to rip
the kitchen apart to get to their nesting areas (hence the desire for a vehicle that can
haul sheetrock, etc.). Then I would like to make breakfast with actual food that I, in
another world, had time to get and actually put in the fridge. Then I'd like to go to work
in a car that doesn't need any work. Then I'd like to come home and not smell the cat urine
in the carpet & drapes that the previous disgusting owner saturated the house with.

Go the Pet Store and buy a bottle of Nature's Miracle and clean the
carpets with that. If that's too expensive - hair shampoo can also
clean carpets and make them smell right nice.

Some cheap fabric at WalMart or a nice sheet can be bought and thrown
over the shabby furniture for a new look. My daughter did this with
the furnished apartment she rented one summer. The effect was good
for the soul, if nothing else. Maybe a few cheap but bright pillows,
too.

On the food issue, make a list, pick a time you CAN shop, and then go
do it. Then get out your crockpot and cut up some veggies, throw in
some meat (unless you're vegan) toss in a few spices and a little
water and come home to something that smells great and worth eating.
And if you cook it on low - you can pretty much eat it ANY time, after
an hour or two. Ot ten.

I can't help you with the bugs. Sorry.

Merry

[Chris Hill]

Post by hehn
Well, I went out and bought 'your money or your life' (got it used on Amazon) - can't wait
until it gets here. I realize after reading your posts that what I am largely responding to
is the constant stress and the desire for more time. I want an uncomplicated life - one
where I can make breakfast without seeing our infestation of cave crickets and thinking
about how impossibly difficult it is to eradicate them and how I will probably have to rip
the kitchen apart to get to their nesting areas (hence the desire for a vehicle that can
haul sheetrock, etc.). Then I would like to make breakfast with actual food that I, in
another world, had time to get and actually put in the fridge. Then I'd like to go to work
in a car that doesn't need any work. Then I'd like to come home and not smell the cat urine
in the carpet & drapes that the previous disgusting owner saturated the house with.
Granted, it's a LOT better than it used to be - I have ripped up some of the carpet and
replaced it (had to treat the slab with special sealing paint), and the LR carpet has been
cleaned 80 million times. Now it only smells when it's humid and luckily the smell is much
fainter than it used to be. But I will tell you, it gets me down!
Also some of my problem is that I want to get ahead on my student loans and other expenses,
so I have been freelancing in addition to fulltime work. So I am basically working all day
and all night and haven't had a minute to myself for downtime, hobbies, etc. I hate that.
Oh well. I guess I understand what I need a little better now. I don't need the new car as
much as I need less complications.
As far as the furniture issues, I'm lucky in not having had to pay for much - most of my
stuff came off the street or from family. But I do desire greatly not to live with beat up
old stuff. There's something cluttered-looking about it, and I work very hard to keep the
place clean to compensate.

Sounds like you might have been better off to pass that house bye.
Fixer uppers are great if you're a landlord, not so good if you have
to live there. The stuff involved in owning a home isn't usually
discussed by all the people who will profit if you buy one.

If you have an insect problem, contact an exterminator, they should be
able to get rid of them even if they are hard to get to.

Stress has a bad habbit of making a person want stuff they wouldn't
have time to enjoy even if they had it. Just give it time and keep
plugging away, it will get better.

[Neil]

(snip)

Post by Chris Hill
Sounds like you might have been better off to pass that house bye.
Fixer uppers are great if you're a landlord, not so good if you have
to live there. The stuff involved in owning a home isn't usually
discussed by all the people who will profit if you buy one.

Know what you mean. I have a home and a mortgage, and I'm not really
sure buying is that great an idea. I miss the days when if something
broke in my old apartment, I called the landlord and fixing it was his
responsibility. Even with homeowner's insurance to protect me against
expensive and sudden problems, having to deal with home repairs is a
hassle.

Post by Chris Hill
If you have an insect problem, contact an exterminator, they should be
able to get rid of them even if they are hard to get to.

Agree.

Post by Chris Hill
Stress has a bad habbit of making a person want stuff they wouldn't
have time to enjoy even if they had it.

Agree. For example, sometimes I think I might want a huge TV or some
other luxury product. But I think what I really want is time to enjoy
something like a huge TV, and having a huge TV is just part of that
fantasy. Buying the huge TV won't give me that sort of time. In fact,
buying something like a huge TV would just add to the stress, because
I'd have spent the money and because every time I looked at the huge
TV, I'd be reminded of how futile buying the TV was.

Post by Chris Hill
Just give it time and keep
plugging away, it will get better.

Agree. Try to focus on a few goals and avoid distractions. Having just
a few goals will eliminate having to make other stressful,
distracting, and (overall) often trivial decisions.

[s***@meadows.pair.com]

Post by hehn
Thanks for all your input. I guess the important thing is that I haven't done anything
yet! Even if I *want* lots of stuff, if I can keep myself from buying it, that's probably a
small accomplishment. I have made progress over the past year - have put a slight dent in
my student loans & other debt, etc. It just seems like progress is so slow!

Hang in there! Basically, not having enough money is
difficult to live with, but gets easier with practice.

I've been the stressed-out, working all the time route, and
it's devastating. Try to get yourself a little time for
yourself, please. And for peace and quiet.

I attribute my current auto-immune disease to too much
stress for too long.

Modern medicine doesn't know the cause of auto-immune
conditions, but being stressed-out for a long time is one of
the theories for their cause. Indeed, this is one of the
leading theories for causing the recent jump in occurrence
of auto-immune conditions: you could almost say it's an
epidemic.

Pat

[Andy]

Post by hehn
Well, I went out and bought 'your money or your life' (got it used on Amazon) - can't wait
until it gets here. I realize after reading your posts that what I am largely responding to
is the constant stress and the desire for more time. I want an uncomplicated life - one
where I can make breakfast without seeing our infestation of cave crickets and thinking
about how impossibly difficult it is to eradicate them and how I will probably have to rip
the kitchen apart to get to their nesting areas (hence the desire for a vehicle that can
haul sheetrock, etc.). Then I would like to make breakfast with actual food that I, in
another world, had time to get and actually put in the fridge. Then I'd like to go to work
in a car that doesn't need any work. Then I'd like to come home and not smell the cat urine
in the carpet & drapes that the previous disgusting owner saturated the house with.
Granted, it's a LOT better than it used to be - I have ripped up some of the carpet and
replaced it (had to treat the slab with special sealing paint), and the LR carpet has been
cleaned 80 million times. Now it only smells when it's humid and luckily the smell is much
fainter than it used to be. But I will tell you, it gets me down!
Also some of my problem is that I want to get ahead on my student loans and other expenses,
so I have been freelancing in addition to fulltime work. So I am basically working all day
and all night and haven't had a minute to myself for downtime, hobbies, etc. I hate that.
Oh well. I guess I understand what I need a little better now. I don't need the new car as
much as I need less complications.
As far as the furniture issues, I'm lucky in not having had to pay for much - most of my
stuff came off the street or from family. But I do desire greatly not to live with beat up
old stuff. There's something cluttered-looking about it, and I work very hard to keep the
place clean to compensate.
Thanks for all your input. I guess the important thing is that I haven't done anything
yet! Even if I *want* lots of stuff, if I can keep myself from buying it, that's probably a
small accomplishment. I have made progress over the past year - have put a slight dent in
my student loans & other debt, etc. It just seems like progress is so slow!
Hehn

Hi Hehn,

Keeping yourself from buying lots of stuff when you are already in
debt is not a small accomplishment, its a *huge* accomplishment that
will pay dividends for the rest of your life. People who buy stuff on
credit when they are young can easily end up with $20,000+ in credit
card debt that they carry for years. The interest expense alone
(assuming 12% annual interest) is $200 a month. Avoiding the credit
card trap is like making an extra $200+ a month tax free with no
effort.

I suspect that what is really wearing you down is working so many
hours every week. Having some regularly scheduled stress free time
every week can do wonders for morale, much more so than a nice car or
other conveniences/luxuries. So I would recommend setting aside a
regularly scheduled block of time every week where you and your
husband do not work, shop, do chores, run errands, clean house, or
think or talk about any of the above, and instead you do pleasant
relaxing things like read a book, go for a walk, etc. Ideally this
would be a full 24 hour day on the weekend, but if that is not
feasible then a half day to start. Make it your highest priority to
keep this time free, so that you can count on it always being there as
a refuge from stress. You will not get as much "done" every week if
you do this, but what is the point of doing so much if not to get you
some peace and joy?

You may also want to take a hard look at whether the free-lance work
in the evenings is really cost-effective. When you work all the time
you lose the time it takes to be frugal and after taxes (especially
the 15% self employment tax on freelance work), extra expenses for
work, and lost opportunities to save money you may be making only a
dollar an hour or less. You might be able to significantly lower your
grocery bill if you have the time to visit a number of different
stores to get the best prices on everything. Many people who work
long hours end up eating out for lunch and/or dinner many times a
week, which is a real money eater. The average cost per mile of
operating a car is around $0.25/mile. Many busy couples have two cell
phones, which adds up. If you have more time you can do the research
and hunting necessary to get good value on big-ticket purchases like
cars, etc. Sit down and really crunch the numbers, including taxes
and everything, and see how it turns out.

Andy

[Neil]

Post by hehn
Well, I went out and bought 'your money or your life' (got it used on Amazon) -

I haven't read that one, but have meant to, because of the title. The
search URL I posted was just to give you some ideas about possible
books and sources of advice and ideas.

Post by hehn
can't wait
until it gets here. I realize after reading your posts that what I am largely responding to
is the constant stress and the desire for more time. I want an uncomplicated life - one
where I can make breakfast without seeing our infestation of cave crickets and thinking
about how impossibly difficult it is to eradicate them and how I will probably have to rip
the kitchen apart to get to their nesting areas (hence the desire for a vehicle that can
haul sheetrock, etc.). Then I would like to make breakfast with actual food that I, in
another world, had time to get and actually put in the fridge. Then I'd like to go to work
in a car that doesn't need any work. Then I'd like to come home and not smell the cat urine
in the carpet & drapes that the previous disgusting owner saturated the house with.

Believe it or not, I kinda know how you feel. Sometimes it just seems
like there's an endless list of problems that drives me crazy and yet
there's no time or money to solve all these problems. Sometimes the
best thing to do is take a vacation and/or in some way get away from
the problems, so that I can get some perspective.

Post by hehn
Granted, it's a LOT better than it used to be - I have ripped up some of the carpet and
replaced it (had to treat the slab with special sealing paint), and the LR carpet has been
cleaned 80 million times. Now it only smells when it's humid and luckily the smell is much
fainter than it used to be. But I will tell you, it gets me down!

You might try some of the plug-in air fresheners. Also open windows as
much as possible. Smells sort of soak into things and can be hard to
get rid of, even if the main smelly thing is cleaned or discarded. I
assume there are probably professional fumigators or some sort of
service that could help.

Post by hehn
Also some of my problem is that I want to get ahead on my student loans and other expenses,
so I have been freelancing in addition to fulltime work. So I am basically working all day
and all night and haven't had a minute to myself for downtime, hobbies, etc. I hate that.

I know the feeling there too. Because my main job is winding down, I'm
doing part-time work too, which makes me feel more frantic. Something
what helps me much more than working more and more frantically (which
tends to make me feel there's even more for me to do) is to take a
break and go see a movie or something to escape. When I do that, I go
to the kind of movie that's an escape, like an adventure or a comedy.

Another thing that helps is just to try to have a well-rounded life.
Going to church and taking walks help because they give me other
perspectives. I also don't carry a cell phone or pager or anything
that would mean I'd be "on call" all the time and/or I could be
interrupted at any time.

Also make rules that you'll only do your freelance work at times you
schedule. Another thing that can work is to schedule off-duty and fun
times. It's so easy to schedule work, or build your life around work,
that it's easy to forget to schedule time not to work.

Post by hehn
Oh well. I guess I understand what I need a little better now. I don't need the new car as
much as I need less complications.

Makes sense to me. One thing I try to keep in mind is that buying
stuff usually complicates and clutters my life. Money can't buy real
solutions or happiness.

Post by hehn
As far as the furniture issues, I'm lucky in not having had to pay for much - most of my
stuff came off the street or from family. But I do desire greatly not to live with beat up
old stuff. There's something cluttered-looking about it, and I work very hard to keep the
place clean to compensate.

If you have excess furniture, at some point you may have to decide
whether the furniture is worth the price that you pay for having the
furniture clutter your house. This year I decided that some of my
furniture was like any other consumer product I own and eventually
I've gotten enough use out of it and I could let it go. It's also a
simple way to gain floor space. I put the discarded furniture at the
curb and scroungers took most of it, so it's now being recycled to
folks who want it. Just because I inherited some furniture, got it
cheap, or wanted it badly at some time is no reason for me to hang
onto it.

I find that the less clutter I have physically, the less clutter I
feel mentally. One thing I do have to watch out for is making sure not
to buy stuff that allegedly will simplify my life, as I'm sometimes
tempted to do.

I also had (and still have) some clutter related to interests I no
longer have. For example, although I've decluttered the following to
some extent, I still have too much stereo gear, even though I've
realized I almost never have used it in recent years, so it'll go
soon. Mostly I listen to a cheap table radio these days.

While I sometimes feel a little stressed out deciding what to get rid
of, I find that I always feel better after it's gone. It's no longer a
burden or concern of mine and I get a refreshing feeling.

Post by hehn
Thanks for all your input. I guess the important thing is that I haven't done anything
yet! Even if I *want* lots of stuff, if I can keep myself from buying it, that's probably a
small accomplishment.

There's something I'm tempted to buy (at $130), but I just keep
putting it off, because I know eventually I'll want it less and/or
forget about it anyway. That's not exactly a deeply clever or
philosophical way to avoid spending, but it works for me sometimes. If
I can just postpone buying, then it makes me realize I can live
without many things I'm tempted to buy.

Post by hehn
I have made progress over the past year - have put a slight dent in
my student loans & other debt, etc. It just seems like progress is so slow!

Slow and steady wins the race! You may have to take small steps to
move towards your goals, but if you consistently make steps, even
small ones, you'll get there.

I'll add that for many middle-class people, the problem is not
generating a sufficient income, the problem is not having a plan that
will direct the income to provide what you want.

Overall, having clear goals and a plan simplifies life and decision
making.

It sounds to me like you're on the right track. Look at the books,
work out goals and long-term priorities (such as where you want to be
in 10 years, not short-term priorities like wanting a new car now),
set a budget, and work with a planner to make a plan that will work
for you.

[Hehn]

Wow. I am overwhelmed with the ideas and support you've all had. I'm going to dig out
that crockpot and start using it again - that will free up more time and $. I wonder if
it's bad to prepare it the night before and then stick the pot in the warmer that
morning, or if the pot is likely to crack when going from a cold environment to a
warmer? I'm not that organized in the morning so I tend to always be rushing around. Of
course some of that is due to working all day and all night so I don't go to bed until 1
or 2am!

I don't know why but I had never thought of scheduling freelance time. It never occured
to me. What a wonderful idea.

Pat, what kind of autoimmune disorder do you have? I hope you don't mind my asking - I am
concerned because I have heard about how stress is increasingly recognized as making us
sick. I guess I am being foolish to an extent... I do want to make headway in my bills,
but I don't want to live like this for the long-term.

Thanks everyone for your support!

Hehn

[barbie gee]

Post by Hehn
Wow. I am overwhelmed with the ideas and support you've all had. I'm going to dig out
that crockpot and start using it again - that will free up more time and $. I wonder if
it's bad to prepare it the night before and then stick the pot in the warmer that
morning, or if the pot is likely to crack when going from a cold environment to a
warmer? I'm not that organized in the morning so I tend to always be rushing around. Of
course some of that is due to working all day and all night so I don't go to bed until 1
or 2am!

Perfectly fine to prep the night before, keep the crock in the fridge,
and then just put it in the stand and turn it on in the morning. I do
it all the time, because I don't have time for set up in the morning,
either. I'll usually just leave out the water or liquids for the
overnight storage, and put the liquid in that morning before turning it on.

Post by Hehn
I don't know why but I had never thought of scheduling freelance time. It never occured
to me. What a wonderful idea.

And, think about scheduling "date night"! Once a week, you and your
hubby should go out, even for a modest burger and beer, or to a weekend
matinee movie and lunch, or some such. Don't neglect your relationship,
and you'll feel less stressed, as well, to just have some down-time with
your spouse.

[s***@meadows.pair.com]

Post by Hehn
Pat, what kind of autoimmune disorder do you have? I hope you don't mind my asking - I am
concerned because I have heard about how stress is increasingly recognized as making us
sick. I guess I am being foolish to an extent... I do want to make headway in my bills,
but I don't want to live like this for the long-term.

On the crockpot issue (which I snipped):

I think it's OK to prepare the stuff the night before, and
put it in the crock, and stick the crock in the fridge, to
start it cooking in the morning. I don't think it would
break: crockpots don't heat up fast, they take a long time
to heat up. Cold ingredients and a cold crock would take
more time to cook though.

On a more philosophical vein:

That's the trick. Pay off the debts and then try to get
into a saner, less-stressful life.

Good organization helps. We all know this, but it's like
belling the cat: you can realize you should do it, but it's
difficult to achieve!

We're all struggling with frugality and life in general (!),
it's just that some of us have had more experience than
others (because we're older). We're not necessarily smarter
or better-organized or harder-working, but we DO have more
experience, and this often helps.

On the auto-immune thing:

I have lupus.

Mind you - the cause of *all* auto-immune conditions is not
known. But there's a lot of speculation that stress is
involved. It makes sense to me. The NY Times article I
sent here the other day was along these lines.

For a long time, I had various life-changes that made my
stress-index go over the top of the charts PLUS my job had
become very stressful indeed: I was constantly expected to
do more and more work with less and less help and fewer and
fewer resources. This is, sadly, the way a lot of jobs have
become now. :(

Pat

[Holly E. Ordway]

Post by Hehn
Wow. I am overwhelmed with the ideas and support you've all had.

:-)

I had another thought. Do you currently track your expenses? (ie. write
down every time you spend money, either on paper or using a computer
program like Quicken). Looking at a typical month's worth of expenses
could help you focus on what areas of your spending could benefit the
most from re-vamping. If you have a modest entertainment budget but
spend a lot on phone bills (for example) it will benefit you more to
think about ways to reduce your phone usage than it would to cut back on
your entertainment.

If you look at your spending categories and don't see any "room" for
changes, you could post them here and see what ideas people have.

--Holly

[s***@meadows.pair.com]

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:58:26 -0500, "Holly E. Ordway"

Post by Holly E. Ordway
I had another thought. Do you currently track your expenses? (ie. write
down every time you spend money, either on paper or using a computer
program like Quicken). Looking at a typical month's worth of expenses
could help you focus on what areas of your spending could benefit the
most from re-vamping. If you have a modest entertainment budget but
spend a lot on phone bills (for example) it will benefit you more to
think about ways to reduce your phone usage than it would to cut back on
your entertainment.

Speaking of phone bills, and since Hehn is new here, maybe
she doesn't know about OneSuite and BigZoo.

Dirt cheap long distance calls - details available on their
respective websites.

http://www.onesuite.com

http://www.bigzoo.com

Lots of people (including us) no longer have any
long-distance carrier and find it works just fine.

This is tricky, though, since some local telcos levy a
charge for this whether or not you have a long distance
carrier. Ours does not do this.

We pay 2.9 cents/minute or 3.9 cents/minute 24/7, for any
calls within the USA - and equally low international rates.

They're well worth looking into, if you don't already know
about them.

Pat

[juliehh]

Post by s***@meadows.pair.com
Speaking of phone bills, and since Hehn is new here, maybe
she doesn't know about OneSuite and BigZoo.

she ?? i thought she was a he.

julie

[s***@meadows.pair.com]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 21:06:26 -0500, "juliehh"

Post by juliehh

Post by s***@meadows.pair.com
Speaking of phone bills, and since Hehn is new here, maybe
she doesn't know about OneSuite and BigZoo.

she ?? i thought she was a he.

I'm not sure, I just received an impression of a 'she'.

Pat

[m***@privacy.net]

Post by Neil
While I sometimes feel a little stressed out deciding what to get rid
of, I find that I always feel better after it's gone. It's no longer a
burden or concern of mine and I get a refreshing feeling.

Neil.... Ive gone thru same process as you..... i.e
declutering my life

And altho it does initially ADD some stress to
declutter.... you are correct in that once done it
creates a more peaceful life.

John

[Neil]

Post by m***@privacy.net

Post by Neil
While I sometimes feel a little stressed out deciding what to get rid
of, I find that I always feel better after it's gone. It's no longer a
burden or concern of mine and I get a refreshing feeling.

Neil.... Ive gone thru same process as you..... i.e
declutering my life

I'm far from done with my decluttering, but any progress feels good.
I've never had a real serious problem with clutter, but I'm trying to
cut back what clutter I have.

Living in such a prosperous place as the US makes it easy to
accumulate a lot of stuff and clutter.

BTW, there's a support newsgroup for folks with clutter problems;
can't remember the name. It's pretty eye opening. I haven't looked at
it lately, but it was pretty startling for me to read just how bad
clutter can be.

Another BTW: I noticed an ad in my local newspaper for a decluttering
service that makes house calls. It'd be interesting to see those folks
in action. They probably have some real horror stories.

Post by m***@privacy.net
And altho it does initially ADD some stress to
declutter.... you are correct in that once done it
creates a more peaceful life.

Agree. I'm not done yet, but I find that every time I get rid of more
stuff, I feel better. Hmmm...could develop into a rather attractive
addiction!

[Merry Stahel]

Post by Neil
Another BTW: I noticed an ad in my local newspaper for a decluttering
service that makes house calls. It'd be interesting to see those folks
in action. They probably have some real horror stories.

There's now a show on HGTV, too - Clean Sweep. They come in and MAKE
the owners d-clutter, withthe promise of a makeover for the room -
Something on the order of Trading Spaces. Think its the same
producers, actually.

Merry

[Neil]

Post by Merry Stahel

Post by Neil
Another BTW: I noticed an ad in my local newspaper for a decluttering
service that makes house calls. It'd be interesting to see those folks
in action. They probably have some real horror stories.

There's now a show on HGTV, too - Clean Sweep. They come in and MAKE
the owners d-clutter, withthe promise of a makeover for the room -
Something on the order of Trading Spaces. Think its the same
producers, actually.

Thanks! I'll look for that.

I wonder if the decluttering experts get the hardcore, really hideous
problems, or if people with those sort of problems are too ashamed or
don't see the clutter as a problem.

Speaking of clutter, the recent (and excellent) movie "American
Splendor," about writers Harvey Pekar and Joyce Brabner, shows the
clutter Pekar lives in.

(snip)

[Larisa]

Post by hehn
Well, I went out and bought 'your money or your life' (got it used on Amazon) - can't wait
until it gets here. I realize after reading your posts that what I am largely responding to
is the constant stress and the desire for more time. I want an uncomplicated life - one
where I can make breakfast without seeing our infestation of cave crickets and thinking
about how impossibly difficult it is to eradicate them and how I will probably have to rip
the kitchen apart to get to their nesting areas (hence the desire for a vehicle that can
haul sheetrock, etc.). Then I would like to make breakfast with actual food that I, in
another world, had time to get and actually put in the fridge. Then I'd like to go to work
in a car that doesn't need any work. Then I'd like to come home and not smell the cat urine
in the carpet & drapes that the previous disgusting owner saturated the house with.

Oy, have I BTDT. The cat urine (well, it was dog urine in my case -
equally disgusting), the neverending remodeling project that ate 2
years of my life, the full-time job *and* a small business, and never
any time for anything at all. No wonder you're stressed. I was ready
to kill myself after 2 years of that.

And I do understand the time-starvation, and the desire to do at least
something nice for yourself in a life that does not allow you anything
nice for yourself at all. That's how I felt those two years. But the
problem of using spending money to give yourself that "something nice"
is that it keeps you in that trap all the longer.

LM

[Neil]

(snip)

Post by Larisa
Oy, have I BTDT. The cat urine (well, it was dog urine in my case -
equally disgusting), the neverending remodeling project that ate 2
years of my life, the full-time job *and* a small business, and never
any time for anything at all. No wonder you're stressed. I was ready
to kill myself after 2 years of that.

I know the feeling. And you did it all because you thought it would at
some point make you feel better or satisfied, I bet! ;-)

But instead it can be a nonstop nightmare where if you take a break,
you feel guilty for not doing the mountain of work. That's what I've
been experiencing for the past few years.

Post by Larisa
And I do understand the time-starvation,

"Time-starvation"...good phrase! Hadn't heard that before.

Post by Larisa
and the desire to do at least
something nice for yourself in a life that does not allow you anything
nice for yourself at all. That's how I felt those two years.

It helps me to schedule time to goof off, relax, go to movies, etc. It
can be very easy to get in the habit of scheduling work and needed
errands, yet forget to schedule time to relax.

Post by Larisa
But the
problem of using spending money to give yourself that "something nice"
is that it keeps you in that trap all the longer.

Exactly! I've been thinking about buying a nice new radio for my desk,
but I've managed not to buy it by remembering that buying that radio
will just keep me chained to the desk even longer, because I'll have
spent the money I made at the desk and will have to earn and replace
that money.

[juliehh]

Post by hehn
Well, I went out and bought 'your money or your life' (got it used on Amazon) - can't wait
until it gets here.

i really do think you're the type it's aimed at and you should get alot out
of it. it goes into great detail about recording expenses. once you
understand the concept of ~enough~ and find what it is for you there is alot
of satisfaction in NOT spending money. let us know how you like it and how
you're doing.

julie

[T.V.]

Looks can be deceiving. My friend is a very frugal buyer, but also socks away a
lot of money.
I tend to look at the older generation, and they hang onto things, sell others,
and in general, do things that this current generation of must-have must-see
ppl don't do: they WAIT and think things over before buying or signing or
getting that new gadget.
It is a lesson all of us are slowly learning. Also, a lot of ppl just take good
care of the things they have, and hold out for quality.

Don't despair, you're not alone.

Theresa
I blog, you blog, we all blog together.

http://itzbinfun.blogspot.com/

[Hehn]

GREAT. I just typed a nice long response thanking everyone but
it got aborted before I could finish. Now I am too stressed to
retype it all because I have to get back to work. Basically I
wanted to thank everyone for their input, to say that I am not
new - have been lurking for a while but not very active, and had
to change my name/email because of being bombarded with
spam... but I do know about OneSuite and BigZoo, though I've
been too stressed to spend time being frugal, which is another
stupid move!

I have heard about how useful it is to record expenses - I keep
meaning to do this but haven't yet! Maybe we can discuss that
alone in a new thread? Thanks everyone!

Hehn