Alex Milman
2017-07-05 20:59:30 UTC
'In 1357 Count Louis II married his seven-year-old daughter Margaret to the minor Duke Philip I of Burgundy, who died from plague four years later. Sole heiress of her father's territories, she was a highly coveted bride courted by both Edmund of Langley, son of King Edward III of England, and Philip the Bold, son of King John II of France and Duke of Burgundy since 1363. After several years of tough bargaining, Count Louis II gave his consent to Philip and his brother King Charles V'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_II,_Count_of_Flanders
This basically started the Burgundian Netherlands and the whole sequence of the
events from the Burgundian role as an independent player in the 100YW and all
the way to the "Burgundian Inheritance", Hapsburg encirclement of France and
the wars which eventually broke it (and the Dutch Revolution "on the
side" :-)).
Now, what if Count Louis II chose Edmund of Langley (the future Duke of York)?
Probably, unlike France, Ed III would not give him the lordships in Romance
Flanders (Lille, Douai, Orchies) and a payment of 200,000 livre tournois
(I may be mistaken but it looks like Ed III and Ed Junior were mostly in the
business of taking other people money) but perhaps he could get an offer he
could not refuse, like having few thousands English marching across his lands
turning them into a wasteland or Ed Senior suddenly deciding to help the
Flemish towns to restore their old freedoms. Anyway, in 1369 Margaret married
Edmund (who for the occasion is elevated to Duke of York 16 years prior to OTL).
As in OTL The Flemings again rose in 1382 under Philip van Artevelde and expelled Count Louis from Flanders after the Battle of Beverhoutsveld; Unlike
OTL, the help is coming from England, not France so the Battle of Roosebeke
looks distinctively different tactically but with the same outcome (Flemish
phalanx vs. English archers & mounted and dismounted men at arms). Without the
English aid Ghent can't resist (in OTL it did all the way to 1384).
In 1384 Margaret and Edmund inherit counties of Flanders, Artois and Burgundy.
Philip the Bold remains just a Duke of Burgundy and there are no future
marriages that result in creation of the OTL "Valois Burgundy".
The House of York has territories on both sides of the Channel so how will
it play in a long run on each of these sides?
In OTL Edmund was Keeper of the Realm in 1394/95 and in 1396 (reign of
Richard II). Would it be possible if he had serious vested interests in Flanders?
In OTL, IIRC, at least Philip II and John the Fearless of Burgundy (who unified his mother's and father's possessions) had been trying to get access
to the French Treasury thus getting into conflict with Duke Louis I of Orleans
(the following assassinations of Louis and then John split France into the
Burgundian and Armagnac parties with the well-known impact on the 100YW,
etc.). This may not change too much if Philip and John are just the "simple"
Dukes of Burgundy but perhaps their value as the allies (of any side) is less
than in OTL, especially if the Flanders are in the English hands.
If we assume that the marriages of the "Flemish Plantagenets" are the same
as of the OTL Burgundian Valois, then they eventually expand their territories
to Namur, Hainaut, Zeeland, Brabant, and Limburg. But, let's assume that they
don't have money to buy the Duchy of Luxembourg (or perhaps they do, to make
things closer to OTL). As a result, they have a dilemma similar to one of the
OTL Valois Burgundy: some of their possessions are in France (but there is no
agreement about their return if there are no male issue) and some in the
HRE plus they have lands in England.
Will this change anything in the Lancastrian coup?
If the coup still happens, will it change anything in the 100YW? Will the
"Flemish Yorks" be ready to avail their lands as a base for the English
(Lancastrian) invasion of France knowing quite well that even before they'll
see and Frenchmen, they'll loot "the base"?
If <by whatever combination> there are still Wars of the Roses would the York
side have a noticeable advantage, at least in the ability to finance the war?
What about the English-"Flemish" (plus all other entities) union? Could it be
sustainable taking into an account the French sovereignty over some of the
territories? Or would it be an extended 100YW that'll end up with the Northern
French borders being what it is now (aka, earlier version of the conquests of
Louis XIII and XIV)?
What about the rest of the territories?
There can be also a scenario under which the Yorks end up with just the
Netherlands and the following dynastic marriages creating situation similar
to OTL but without the Hapsburg claims to French Comte?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_II,_Count_of_Flanders
This basically started the Burgundian Netherlands and the whole sequence of the
events from the Burgundian role as an independent player in the 100YW and all
the way to the "Burgundian Inheritance", Hapsburg encirclement of France and
the wars which eventually broke it (and the Dutch Revolution "on the
side" :-)).
Now, what if Count Louis II chose Edmund of Langley (the future Duke of York)?
Probably, unlike France, Ed III would not give him the lordships in Romance
Flanders (Lille, Douai, Orchies) and a payment of 200,000 livre tournois
(I may be mistaken but it looks like Ed III and Ed Junior were mostly in the
business of taking other people money) but perhaps he could get an offer he
could not refuse, like having few thousands English marching across his lands
turning them into a wasteland or Ed Senior suddenly deciding to help the
Flemish towns to restore their old freedoms. Anyway, in 1369 Margaret married
Edmund (who for the occasion is elevated to Duke of York 16 years prior to OTL).
As in OTL The Flemings again rose in 1382 under Philip van Artevelde and expelled Count Louis from Flanders after the Battle of Beverhoutsveld; Unlike
OTL, the help is coming from England, not France so the Battle of Roosebeke
looks distinctively different tactically but with the same outcome (Flemish
phalanx vs. English archers & mounted and dismounted men at arms). Without the
English aid Ghent can't resist (in OTL it did all the way to 1384).
In 1384 Margaret and Edmund inherit counties of Flanders, Artois and Burgundy.
Philip the Bold remains just a Duke of Burgundy and there are no future
marriages that result in creation of the OTL "Valois Burgundy".
The House of York has territories on both sides of the Channel so how will
it play in a long run on each of these sides?
In OTL Edmund was Keeper of the Realm in 1394/95 and in 1396 (reign of
Richard II). Would it be possible if he had serious vested interests in Flanders?
In OTL, IIRC, at least Philip II and John the Fearless of Burgundy (who unified his mother's and father's possessions) had been trying to get access
to the French Treasury thus getting into conflict with Duke Louis I of Orleans
(the following assassinations of Louis and then John split France into the
Burgundian and Armagnac parties with the well-known impact on the 100YW,
etc.). This may not change too much if Philip and John are just the "simple"
Dukes of Burgundy but perhaps their value as the allies (of any side) is less
than in OTL, especially if the Flanders are in the English hands.
If we assume that the marriages of the "Flemish Plantagenets" are the same
as of the OTL Burgundian Valois, then they eventually expand their territories
to Namur, Hainaut, Zeeland, Brabant, and Limburg. But, let's assume that they
don't have money to buy the Duchy of Luxembourg (or perhaps they do, to make
things closer to OTL). As a result, they have a dilemma similar to one of the
OTL Valois Burgundy: some of their possessions are in France (but there is no
agreement about their return if there are no male issue) and some in the
HRE plus they have lands in England.
Will this change anything in the Lancastrian coup?
If the coup still happens, will it change anything in the 100YW? Will the
"Flemish Yorks" be ready to avail their lands as a base for the English
(Lancastrian) invasion of France knowing quite well that even before they'll
see and Frenchmen, they'll loot "the base"?
If <by whatever combination> there are still Wars of the Roses would the York
side have a noticeable advantage, at least in the ability to finance the war?
What about the English-"Flemish" (plus all other entities) union? Could it be
sustainable taking into an account the French sovereignty over some of the
territories? Or would it be an extended 100YW that'll end up with the Northern
French borders being what it is now (aka, earlier version of the conquests of
Louis XIII and XIV)?
What about the rest of the territories?
There can be also a scenario under which the Yorks end up with just the
Netherlands and the following dynastic marriages creating situation similar
to OTL but without the Hapsburg claims to French Comte?