Discussion:
NH3 and PH3 molecule shape
(too old to reply)
josef muller
2005-06-15 11:44:24 UTC
Permalink
hello,
i have read that the difference in the shape of molecule of NH3 and
PH3 stems from different hybridization. can anybody explain me this?
electron configurations of N and P are rather similar (2s2 2p3 and 3s2
3p3). why they are different in shape? is VSEPRT helpful in this case?

thank you.
Uncle Al
2005-06-15 15:26:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by josef muller
hello,
i have read that the difference in the shape of molecule of NH3 and
PH3 stems from different hybridization. can anybody explain me this?
electron configurations of N and P are rather similar (2s2 2p3 and 3s2
3p3). why they are different in shape? is VSEPRT helpful in this case?
Phosphorus has d-orbital participation. Nitrogen has no low-lying
d-orbitals to access.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
Richard Schultz
2005-06-15 16:17:13 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@hate.spam.net>, Uncle Al <***@hate.spam.net> wrote:

: Phosphorus has d-orbital participation.

In a word: wrong.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Uncle Al
2005-06-15 19:32:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
: Phosphorus has d-orbital participation.
In a word: wrong.
-----
Richard Schultz
Thank you critic troll Richard Schulz for providing an in-depth and
referenced explanation. BTW, you can avoid those skid marks if you do
it differently.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
Richard Schultz
2005-06-16 04:22:51 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@hate.spam.net>, Uncle Al <***@hate.spam.net> wrote:
: Richard Schultz wrote:
:> In article <***@hate.spam.net>, Uncle Al <***@hate.spam.net> wrote:

:> : Phosphorus has d-orbital participation.
:>
:> In a word: wrong.

: Thank you critic troll Richard Schulz for providing an in-depth and
: referenced explanation.

Here's a reference for you: Magnusson, E. J. Am. Chem. Soc. 1993, _115_, 1051.
There are other high-level calculations (e.g. the one done on SF6 and reported
in Reed, A. E.; Weinhold, F. J. Am. Chem. Soc. 1986, _108_, 3586) that
come to the same conclusion, namely, that d-orbital participation in the
chemistry of second-row main group elements ranges from minimal to essentially
nonexistent. As another example, the currently accepted (AFAIK) picture of
backbonding to phosphine ligands considers the phosphine acceptor orbital
to be a sigma-star P-R orbital rather than a d orbital of the P atom.

Even without those references, one would think a priori that a more sensible
explanation for the nearly 90 degree H-P-H angles in PH3 is that there is
little s-orbital participation rather than that there is significant
participation from 3d orbitals. Of course, like most organic chemists,
Uncle Al never stops to consider whether his bonding model actually
makes any physical sense.

So when is that paper coming out in Phys Rev D?

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"A mensch takes personal responsiblity for his actions. When demonstrated to
be empirically wrong a mensch admits error and becomes a better mensch."
-- "Uncle Al" Schwartz, in article <***@hate.spam.net>
Attila the Bum
2005-06-16 15:50:59 UTC
Permalink
I'm not sure if "wrote" is the correct
term. Anyone with more insight?
Post by Richard Schultz
:> : Phosphorus has d-orbital participation.
:>
:> In a word: wrong.
This is the statement of a powerful
powerful personality. Please take
the proper precautions |-)
Post by Richard Schultz
: Thank you critic troll Richard Schulz for providing an in-depth and
: referenced explanation.
The parry (as graceful as it is effective |-)
Post by Richard Schultz
Here's a reference for you: Magnusson, E. J. Am. Chem. Soc. 1993, _115_, 1051.
There are other high-level calculations (e.g. the one done on SF6 and reported
in Reed, A. E.; Weinhold, F. J. Am. Chem. Soc. 1986, _108_, 3586) that
come to the same conclusion, namely, that d-orbital participation in the
chemistry of second-row main group elements ranges from minimal to essentially
nonexistent.
"minimal to essentially nonexistant" d-orbital
participation (did they pay their dues?).
Post by Richard Schultz
As another example, the currently accepted (AFAIK) picture of
backbonding to phosphine ligands considers the phosphine acceptor orbital
to be a sigma-star P-R orbital rather than a d orbital of the P atom.
Even without those references, one would think a priori that a more sensible
explanation for the nearly 90 degree H-P-H angles in PH3 is that there is
little s-orbital participation rather than that there is significant
participation from 3d orbitals.
"...than that there is significant
participation from 3d orbitals."

I've read all this on the fly. Did
Richie step on his own tongue?
Post by Richard Schultz
Of course, like most organic chemists,
Uncle Al never stops to consider whether his bonding model actually
makes any physical sense.
So when is that paper coming out in Phys Rev D?
Didn't I already offer to send you a copy of my
preprint if you'd send a valid address and the
mailing costs?


Attila (Let's lay waste to a MacDonalds;
I love those Big Macs :-)
Uncle Al
2005-06-16 18:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
:> : Phosphorus has d-orbital participation.
:>
:> In a word: wrong.
: Thank you critic troll Richard Schulz for providing an in-depth and
: referenced explanation.
Here's a reference for you: Magnusson, E. J. Am. Chem. Soc. 1993, _115_, 1051.
There are other high-level calculations (e.g. the one done on SF6 and reported
in Reed, A. E.; Weinhold, F. J. Am. Chem. Soc. 1986, _108_, 3586) that
come to the same conclusion, namely, that d-orbital participation in the
chemistry of second-row main group elements ranges from minimal to essentially
nonexistent. As another example, the currently accepted (AFAIK) picture of
backbonding to phosphine ligands considers the phosphine acceptor orbital
to be a sigma-star P-R orbital rather than a d orbital of the P atom.
[snip whining]

Better. See? You can be useful.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
Richard Schultz
2005-06-19 05:01:37 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@hate.spam.net>, Uncle Al <***@hate.spam.net> wrote:

: Better. See? You can be useful.

In other words, once again, you were completely wrong, and once again, you
lack the courage to admit it.

So when is your paper coming out in Phys Rev D?

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"A mensch takes personal responsiblity for his actions. When demonstrated to
be empirically wrong a mensch admits error and becomes a better mensch."
-- "Uncle Al" Schwartz, in article <***@hate.spam.net>
Richard Schultz
2005-06-16 11:57:00 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@hate.spam.net>, Uncle Al <***@hate.spam.net> wrote:
: Richard Schultz wrote:
:> In article <***@hate.spam.net>, Uncle Al <***@hate.spam.net> wrote:

:> : Phosphorus has d-orbital participation.

:> In a word: wrong.

: Thank you critic troll Richard Schulz for providing an in-depth and
: referenced explanation. BTW, you can avoid those skid marks if you do
: it differently.

And while I'm at it, maybe you can provide us with a scheme in which
these d orbitals can provide a geometry any different from bonding via
unhybridized p orbitals (H-P-H = 90 degrees) or sp3 hybridization (H-P-H
at the tetrahedral angle).

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"A mensch takes personal responsiblity for his actions. When demonstrated to
be empirically wrong a mensch admits error and becomes a better mensch."
-- "Uncle Al" Schwartz, in article <***@hate.spam.net>
m***@012.net.il
2005-06-17 07:00:30 UTC
Permalink
He will never do it
he is an old parrot

there is no coconuts on the north pole!!

Y.Porat
----------------------
Attila the Bum
2005-06-17 21:01:22 UTC
Permalink
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109583941/ABSTRACT


Atty (Arctic explorers often report finding
coconut shells and coconuts on
beaches. Scientiests theorize that
ocean currents are responsible |-)
Uncle Al
2005-06-17 22:52:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Attila the Bum
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109583941/ABSTRACT
As Schultz opined, d-orbitals are not involved in phosphorus
configuration except to the extent that they are.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
Attila the Bum
2005-06-18 20:17:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Uncle Al
Post by Attila the Bum
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109583941/ABSTRACT
The abstract actually states that
there is little or no d-orbital
interplay on P, calculation-wise.
It's interesting that O and F must
be accused of such. Computational
chemistry is so fun! I think the
point to be made here, is that
d-orbs come into play with the
mathematical manipulations used
to "get the right results". P's
dees could be involved, depending
on the S/W, I suppose.

I posted that URL without much
forethought, after noting the
claim of d-orb interaction of
second row elements (a complete
reversal of your original
statement). Happenstance,
really, luck of the draw,
reaction under the "heat of
battle" |-)
Post by Uncle Al
As Schultz opined, d-orbitals are not involved in phosphorus
configuration except to the extent that they are.
Uh, he copied someone else's
answer. You indicate that I
may have read it correctly.
Post by Uncle Al
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
Your disclaimer appears to be
inadequate, since it does not
explicitly state that you might
from time to time spew words
that could be considered to be
lies by those amongst us who
cannot understand those
words (context, history,
meaning, etc.). Have you
considered suicide as a solution
for their problem?


Atty (... we need to have a talk?)
Richard Schultz
2005-06-19 05:03:27 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@hate.spam.net>, Uncle Al <***@hate.spam.net> wrote:

: As Schultz opined, d-orbitals are not involved in phosphorus
: configuration except to the extent that they are.

You should look up the word "opine." What I presented to you were results
of calculations that demonstrated that d-orbital participation is not
important in phosphorous chemistry, and that the use of d orbital functions
in basis sets for calculations should not be construed to mean that the
d orbitals are actually participating in the chemistry.

So when is that paper coming out in Phys Rev D?

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"A mensch takes personal responsiblity for his actions. When demonstrated to
be empirically wrong a mensch admits error and becomes a better mensch."
-- "Uncle Al" Schwartz, in article <***@hate.spam.net>
Attila the Bum
2005-06-22 18:39:35 UTC
Permalink
Richard Schultz wrote:

The "wrote" thing, again.
Did he acutually "write"
anything?
Post by Richard Schultz
: As Schultz opined, d-orbitals are not involved in phosphorus
: configuration except to the extent that they are.
You should look up the word "opine." What I presented to you were results
[snip ...]

Uh, Richie means, he
copied someone elses'
answer. He, himself
has nothing to add to
the discussion |-)
Post by Richard Schultz
of calculations that demonstrated that d-orbital
[snip ...]

Depends on the math, idiot!

[snip ...]

So. How're things with
"cold fusion", idiot?


Atty (Am I being too harsh? |-)
m***@012.net.il
2005-06-18 05:44:41 UTC
Permalink
see in my site the Nitrogen nuc structure

the atomic structure is an imediate result of nuc structure
sot so many shells and sub shells that apeople invented
it is basically a teraheder with 3 idential orbitals
while the no 4 is different is is nased on and deutron chain of
orbitals

later go to my description of the other geometric type
that controlls all element abouve Fluorine
and is presented tanghibly by the Iron example
and you will undwerstand the difference between Nitrogen
and phosphorus.
(again not so many shells and 'sunshells' as allaedged)

all the best
Y.Porat
------------------------
Uncle Al
2005-06-18 15:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@012.net.il
see in my site the Nitrogen nuc structure
the atomic structure is an imediate result of nuc structure
sot so many shells and sub shells that apeople invented
it is basically a teraheder with 3 idential orbitals
while the no 4 is different is is nased on and deutron chain of
orbitals
[snip crap]

Hey Shultzy, want to discover fellatio?
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
m***@012.net.il
2005-06-19 03:23:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi old crook farter

did you got your pills today??

Y.Porat
---------------------------
Richard Schultz
2005-06-19 08:05:19 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@hate.spam.net>, Uncle Al <***@hate.spam.net> wrote:

: Hey Shultzy, want to discover fellatio?

Typical Uncle Al. No references, no calculations. Instead of answering
the question that he was asked (how does inclusion of d orbitals in the
bonding of PH3 predict a structure different from the one predicted by
bonding of the H atoms to the p orbitals), or admitting that he cannot
answer it, he resorts to playground taunts.

So when is that paper coming out in Phys Rev D?

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your
truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"
m***@012.net.il
2005-06-16 06:32:13 UTC
Permalink
it all starts from nuclear geomertic structure:

all elements above Fluprine has a nuc
which is sort of a rectangular pipe'

all those before fluorine are different
therahedral etc
you can see the difference between those
two types in my site
the Nitrogen is shwn explicitly
i di dnt show P but i have ir
that P is a 'rectangula pipe
id you what to have some idea about the second type
see my description of the Iron atom and nuc
P is of course not Iron
but you cam have an idea a general idea
about the differences between
the two types

btw
the fact that is is only above fluorine elements
that are 'rectangular pipes'
explain nicely the phononena
of the 'skewed shift' between raw 1
and raw 2 of the periodic table!!
my above explanations are unique
and unprecedented!!
ps my humble home made site is

http://www.geocities.com/porat_y/mypage.html

(provided that i didnt mistyped it (:-)

all the best
Y.Porat
Richard Schultz
2005-06-19 08:03:30 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@posting.google.com>, josef muller <***@gmail.com> wrote:

: i have read that the difference in the shape of molecule of NH3 and
: PH3 stems from different hybridization. can anybody explain me this?
: electron configurations of N and P are rather similar (2s2 2p3 and 3s2
: 3p3). why they are different in shape? is VSEPRT helpful in this case?

While you have so far received at least one wrong answer, I haven't seen
any explanations so far (except for the one that I had almost finished
when there was a power failure). So here's something of an answer to
your question.

One thing that you have to realize is that most people who learn introductory
chemistry are taught hybridization more or less exactly backwards. The
concept of hybridization is used to explain an already known structure, not
to predict the structure of a molecule given its formula.

Now let's consider the compounds of the general formula AH3 (A = a Group 15
(aka Group VA) atom). Since the ground-state configuration for each atom
A is s2p3, we might think a priori that the atom can form three covalent
bonds contributing one electron in each of the three p orbitals. The two
remaining electrons would still be in the (full) s orbital. According to
this model, the H-A-H angle should be 90 degrees, and indeed, for
A = P, As, Sb, that is more or less what we do see. For A = N (NH3), however,
the H-N-H angle is more like 107 degrees. How can we explain that deviation
from the expected geometry?

One model that can explain this is *hybridization*. In "hybridization,"
_n_ atomic orbitals combine to form _n_ "hybrid" orbitals, which in the
most commonly used scheme are linear combinations (sums and differences)
of the atomic orbitals. It is possible to show mathematically that the
mathematical combination of one s and one p yields two "sp" orbitals that
are identical except for their direction (they face 180 degrees apart); the
combinations of one s and two p yield three "sp2" orbitals, pointing 120
degrees apart; and the combinations of one s and three p orbitals yield
four "sp3" orbitals, which point at the corners of a tetrahedron (H-A-H
angle of about 109.5 degrees). From the point of view of this model, the
orbitals of the central N atom seem to be most accurately described as
being "sp3" hybrids. Since the H-N-H angle is a little smaller than would
"sp3 hybrids." Since the actual H-N-H angle is a bit smaller than pure
sp3 hybridization would predict, the orbitals that form the bonds are said
to have slightly more "p character" than pure sp3 orbitals would; that is,
instead of a 1:1:1:1 combination of s and three p orbitals, the s component
is slightly less than 1, and the p components larger by an equivalent amount.
According to this model, the two remaining electrons from the N atom will
be in the fourth sp3 orbital, which points toward the fourth corner of
the tetrahedron.

So far, all that we have shown is that hybridization can account for the
structure of the molecule. The next question is whether or not this
scheme is sensible from the point of view of the energy. Since the p orbitals
are higher in energy than the s orbitals, in order to create these
hybrids, we have to add energy to the atom. On the other hand, we get back
energy for two reasons: first of all, the "overlap" between the N orbital
and the H (1s) orbital will be greater for the hybrid orbital than for
the p orbital alone, which stabilizes the bond, lowering the overall
energy. In addition, if the H atoms are at the corners of a tetrahedron,
they will be further apart, which will lessen the electron-electron repulsions
between the bonding pairs. If the lowering of energy from these two
sources overcomes the energy needed to create the hybrids, then the
tetrahedral structure will be more stable than the structure using p orbitals
alone. In the case of N, the effects do compensate, and the N atom
does hybridize.

In the case of the other atoms, however, the gap in energy between the
s and p orbitals is larger than it is for N, which means that more energy
has to be added to the atom to create the hybrids. Not only that, the
atoms themselves are larger, which puts the bonding pairs further apart, so
there is less bonding pair-bonding pair repulsion to begin with. That means
that forming the tetrahedral structure costs more energy but returns less,
and so the unhybridized structure is the more stable one. In this model,
the actual H-A-H angle of 91-93 degrees indicates a very small amount of
mixing in of p character.

One piece of evidence that this model provides a reasonable explanation of
the structures is the relative basicities of the compounds: NH3 is orders
of magnitude more basic than any of the others. Since the lone pair in
NH3 is in an sp3 orbital directed away from the bonding orbitals, making
it a good proton acceptor to form NH4+. On the other hand, for the remaining
AH3 compounds, the lone pair is in an s orbital, which is spherically
symmetric and hence will only bind poorly to a proton, and we find that these
compounds are essentially *not* basic.

As for your question about VSEPR, you have to understand that the VSEPR
model is basically a fairy tale invented to account for the known structures
of compounds. In the case of AH3, it only "works" if you know in advance
that for every compound except for NH3, the lone pair remains in an s
orbital. Within the VSEPR model, if we exclude participation of the valence
s orbital, then the most reasonable structure is the one using the three
p orbitals. (A "T-shaped" structure with a "3-center, 2-electron" bond
is presumably of higher energy because of the bonding pair-lone pair
repulsions.)

I hope that this helps to answer your question.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and
if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
Lloyd Parker
2005-06-21 10:47:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
: i have read that the difference in the shape of molecule of NH3 and
: PH3 stems from different hybridization. can anybody explain me this?
: electron configurations of N and P are rather similar (2s2 2p3 and 3s2
: 3p3). why they are different in shape? is VSEPRT helpful in this case?
While you have so far received at least one wrong answer, I haven't seen
any explanations so far (except for the one that I had almost finished
when there was a power failure). So here's something of an answer to
your question.
One thing that you have to realize is that most people who learn introductory
chemistry are taught hybridization more or less exactly backwards. The
concept of hybridization is used to explain an already known structure, not
to predict the structure of a molecule given its formula.
Now let's consider the compounds of the general formula AH3 (A = a Group 15
(aka Group VA) atom). Since the ground-state configuration for each atom
A is s2p3, we might think a priori that the atom can form three covalent
bonds contributing one electron in each of the three p orbitals. The two
remaining electrons would still be in the (full) s orbital. According to
this model, the H-A-H angle should be 90 degrees, and indeed, for
A = P, As, Sb, that is more or less what we do see. For A = N (NH3), however,
the H-N-H angle is more like 107 degrees. How can we explain that deviation
from the expected geometry?
One model that can explain this is *hybridization*. In "hybridization,"
_n_ atomic orbitals combine to form _n_ "hybrid" orbitals, which in the
most commonly used scheme are linear combinations (sums and differences)
of the atomic orbitals. It is possible to show mathematically that the
mathematical combination of one s and one p yields two "sp" orbitals that
are identical except for their direction (they face 180 degrees apart); the
combinations of one s and two p yield three "sp2" orbitals, pointing 120
degrees apart; and the combinations of one s and three p orbitals yield
four "sp3" orbitals, which point at the corners of a tetrahedron (H-A-H
angle of about 109.5 degrees). From the point of view of this model, the
orbitals of the central N atom seem to be most accurately described as
being "sp3" hybrids. Since the H-N-H angle is a little smaller than would
"sp3 hybrids." Since the actual H-N-H angle is a bit smaller than pure
sp3 hybridization would predict, the orbitals that form the bonds are said
to have slightly more "p character" than pure sp3 orbitals would; that is,
instead of a 1:1:1:1 combination of s and three p orbitals, the s component
is slightly less than 1, and the p components larger by an equivalent amount.
According to this model, the two remaining electrons from the N atom will
be in the fourth sp3 orbital, which points toward the fourth corner of
the tetrahedron.
So far, all that we have shown is that hybridization can account for the
structure of the molecule. The next question is whether or not this
scheme is sensible from the point of view of the energy. Since the p orbitals
are higher in energy than the s orbitals, in order to create these
hybrids, we have to add energy to the atom. On the other hand, we get back
energy for two reasons: first of all, the "overlap" between the N orbital
and the H (1s) orbital will be greater for the hybrid orbital than for
the p orbital alone, which stabilizes the bond, lowering the overall
energy. In addition, if the H atoms are at the corners of a tetrahedron,
they will be further apart, which will lessen the electron-electron repulsions
between the bonding pairs. If the lowering of energy from these two
sources overcomes the energy needed to create the hybrids, then the
tetrahedral structure will be more stable than the structure using p orbitals
alone. In the case of N, the effects do compensate, and the N atom
does hybridize.
In the case of the other atoms, however, the gap in energy between the
s and p orbitals is larger than it is for N,
Wait a minute. The spacing between orbitals gets smaller as n increases.
Post by Richard Schultz
which means that more energy
has to be added to the atom to create the hybrids. Not only that, the
atoms themselves are larger, which puts the bonding pairs further apart, so
there is less bonding pair-bonding pair repulsion to begin with. That means
that forming the tetrahedral structure costs more energy but returns less,
and so the unhybridized structure is the more stable one. In this model,
the actual H-A-H angle of 91-93 degrees indicates a very small amount of
mixing in of p character.
One piece of evidence that this model provides a reasonable explanation of
the structures is the relative basicities of the compounds: NH3 is orders
of magnitude more basic than any of the others. Since the lone pair in
NH3 is in an sp3 orbital directed away from the bonding orbitals, making
it a good proton acceptor to form NH4+. On the other hand, for the remaining
AH3 compounds, the lone pair is in an s orbital, which is spherically
symmetric and hence will only bind poorly to a proton, and we find that these
compounds are essentially *not* basic.
As for your question about VSEPR, you have to understand that the VSEPR
model is basically a fairy tale invented to account for the known structures
of compounds. In the case of AH3, it only "works" if you know in advance
that for every compound except for NH3, the lone pair remains in an s
orbital. Within the VSEPR model, if we exclude participation of the valence
s orbital, then the most reasonable structure is the one using the three
p orbitals. (A "T-shaped" structure with a "3-center, 2-electron" bond
is presumably of higher energy because of the bonding pair-lone pair
repulsions.)
I hope that this helps to answer your question.
-----
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and
if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
Brian Salter-Duke
2005-06-21 22:41:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
Post by Richard Schultz
: i have read that the difference in the shape of molecule of NH3 and
: PH3 stems from different hybridization. can anybody explain me this?
: electron configurations of N and P are rather similar (2s2 2p3 and 3s2
: 3p3). why they are different in shape? is VSEPRT helpful in this case?
While you have so far received at least one wrong answer, I haven't seen
any explanations so far (except for the one that I had almost finished
when there was a power failure). So here's something of an answer to
your question.
One thing that you have to realize is that most people who learn
introductory
Post by Richard Schultz
chemistry are taught hybridization more or less exactly backwards. The
concept of hybridization is used to explain an already known structure, not
to predict the structure of a molecule given its formula.
Now let's consider the compounds of the general formula AH3 (A = a Group 15
(aka Group VA) atom). Since the ground-state configuration for each atom
A is s2p3, we might think a priori that the atom can form three covalent
bonds contributing one electron in each of the three p orbitals. The two
remaining electrons would still be in the (full) s orbital. According to
this model, the H-A-H angle should be 90 degrees, and indeed, for
A = P, As, Sb, that is more or less what we do see. For A = N (NH3),
however,
Post by Richard Schultz
the H-N-H angle is more like 107 degrees. How can we explain that
deviation
Post by Richard Schultz
from the expected geometry?
One model that can explain this is *hybridization*. In "hybridization,"
_n_ atomic orbitals combine to form _n_ "hybrid" orbitals, which in the
most commonly used scheme are linear combinations (sums and differences)
of the atomic orbitals. It is possible to show mathematically that the
mathematical combination of one s and one p yields two "sp" orbitals that
are identical except for their direction (they face 180 degrees apart); the
combinations of one s and two p yield three "sp2" orbitals, pointing 120
degrees apart; and the combinations of one s and three p orbitals yield
four "sp3" orbitals, which point at the corners of a tetrahedron (H-A-H
angle of about 109.5 degrees). From the point of view of this model, the
orbitals of the central N atom seem to be most accurately described as
being "sp3" hybrids. Since the H-N-H angle is a little smaller than would
"sp3 hybrids." Since the actual H-N-H angle is a bit smaller than pure
sp3 hybridization would predict, the orbitals that form the bonds are said
to have slightly more "p character" than pure sp3 orbitals would; that is,
instead of a 1:1:1:1 combination of s and three p orbitals, the s component
is slightly less than 1, and the p components larger by an equivalent
amount.
Post by Richard Schultz
According to this model, the two remaining electrons from the N atom will
be in the fourth sp3 orbital, which points toward the fourth corner of
the tetrahedron.
So far, all that we have shown is that hybridization can account for the
structure of the molecule. The next question is whether or not this
scheme is sensible from the point of view of the energy. Since the p
orbitals
Post by Richard Schultz
are higher in energy than the s orbitals, in order to create these
hybrids, we have to add energy to the atom. On the other hand, we get back
energy for two reasons: first of all, the "overlap" between the N orbital
and the H (1s) orbital will be greater for the hybrid orbital than for
the p orbital alone, which stabilizes the bond, lowering the overall
energy. In addition, if the H atoms are at the corners of a tetrahedron,
they will be further apart, which will lessen the electron-electron
repulsions
Post by Richard Schultz
between the bonding pairs. If the lowering of energy from these two
sources overcomes the energy needed to create the hybrids, then the
tetrahedral structure will be more stable than the structure using p
orbitals
Post by Richard Schultz
alone. In the case of N, the effects do compensate, and the N atom
does hybridize.
In the case of the other atoms, however, the gap in energy between the
s and p orbitals is larger than it is for N,
Wait a minute. The spacing between orbitals gets smaller as n increases.
The spacing between s and p increases because the difference in shielding by
the inner core electrons of s and p increases. There is in effect more
to be gained by the s getting into the core region. This means that
hybridisation as we know it for C, N and O does not occur so easily for
Si, P etc. The bond angle in PH3 and SH2 is close to 90. As one goes
further down the s drops pretty well into the core and this accounts for
Pb(II) being more stable than Pb(IV), although relativistic effects are
also important.

To get some numbers on this, do ab initio MO calculations on CH4, SiH4
and GeH4 and look at the orbital energies.
Post by Richard Schultz
Post by Richard Schultz
which means that more energy
has to be added to the atom to create the hybrids. Not only that, the
atoms themselves are larger, which puts the bonding pairs further apart, so
there is less bonding pair-bonding pair repulsion to begin with. That
means
Post by Richard Schultz
that forming the tetrahedral structure costs more energy but returns less,
and so the unhybridized structure is the more stable one. In this model,
the actual H-A-H angle of 91-93 degrees indicates a very small amount of
mixing in of p character.
One piece of evidence that this model provides a reasonable explanation of
the structures is the relative basicities of the compounds: NH3 is orders
of magnitude more basic than any of the others. Since the lone pair in
NH3 is in an sp3 orbital directed away from the bonding orbitals, making
it a good proton acceptor to form NH4+. On the other hand, for the
remaining
Post by Richard Schultz
AH3 compounds, the lone pair is in an s orbital, which is spherically
symmetric and hence will only bind poorly to a proton, and we find that
these
Post by Richard Schultz
compounds are essentially *not* basic.
As for your question about VSEPR, you have to understand that the VSEPR
model is basically a fairy tale invented to account for the known
structures
Post by Richard Schultz
of compounds. In the case of AH3, it only "works" if you know in advance
that for every compound except for NH3, the lone pair remains in an s
orbital. Within the VSEPR model, if we exclude participation of the
valence
Post by Richard Schultz
s orbital, then the most reasonable structure is the one using the three
p orbitals. (A "T-shaped" structure with a "3-center, 2-electron" bond
is presumably of higher energy because of the bonding pair-lone pair
repulsions.)
I hope that this helps to answer your question.
-----
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and
if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
--
Brian Salter-Duke Spotswood, Melbourne, Australia
m***@012.net.il
2005-06-22 11:34:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Salter-Duke
Post by Richard Schultz
Post by Richard Schultz
: i have read that the difference in the shape of molecule of NH3 and
: PH3 stems from different hybridization. can anybody explain me this?
: electron configurations of N and P are rather similar (2s2 2p3 and 3s2
: 3p3). why they are different in shape? is VSEPRT helpful in this case?
While you have so far received at least one wrong answer, I haven't seen
any explanations so far (except for the one that I had almost finished
when there was a power failure). So here's something of an answer to
your question.
One thing that you have to realize is that most people who learn
introductory
Post by Richard Schultz
chemistry are taught hybridization more or less exactly backwards. The
concept of hybridization is used to explain an already known structure, not
to predict the structure of a molecule given its formula.
Now let's consider the compounds of the general formula AH3 (A = a Group 15
(aka Group VA) atom). Since the ground-state configuration for each atom
A is s2p3, we might think a priori that the atom can form three covalent
bonds contributing one electron in each of the three p orbitals. The two
remaining electrons would still be in the (full) s orbital. According to
this model, the H-A-H angle should be 90 degrees, and indeed, for
A = P, As, Sb, that is more or less what we do see. For A = N (NH3),
however,
Post by Richard Schultz
the H-N-H angle is more like 107 degrees. How can we explain that
deviation
Post by Richard Schultz
from the expected geometry?
One model that can explain this is *hybridization*. In "hybridization,"
_n_ atomic orbitals combine to form _n_ "hybrid" orbitals, which in the
most commonly used scheme are linear combinations (sums and differences)
of the atomic orbitals. It is possible to show mathematically that the
mathematical combination of one s and one p yields two "sp" orbitals that
are identical except for their direction (they face 180 degrees apart); the
combinations of one s and two p yield three "sp2" orbitals, pointing 120
degrees apart; and the combinations of one s and three p orbitals yield
four "sp3" orbitals, which point at the corners of a tetrahedron (H-A-H
angle of about 109.5 degrees). From the point of view of this model, the
orbitals of the central N atom seem to be most accurately described as
being "sp3" hybrids. Since the H-N-H angle is a little smaller than would
"sp3 hybrids." Since the actual H-N-H angle is a bit smaller than pure
sp3 hybridization would predict, the orbitals that form the bonds are said
to have slightly more "p character" than pure sp3 orbitals would; that is,
instead of a 1:1:1:1 combination of s and three p orbitals, the s component
is slightly less than 1, and the p components larger by an equivalent
amount.
Post by Richard Schultz
According to this model, the two remaining electrons from the N atom will
be in the fourth sp3 orbital, which points toward the fourth corner of
the tetrahedron.
So far, all that we have shown is that hybridization can account for the
structure of the molecule. The next question is whether or not this
scheme is sensible from the point of view of the energy. Since the p
orbitals
Post by Richard Schultz
are higher in energy than the s orbitals, in order to create these
hybrids, we have to add energy to the atom. On the other hand, we get back
energy for two reasons: first of all, the "overlap" between the N orbital
and the H (1s) orbital will be greater for the hybrid orbital than for
the p orbital alone, which stabilizes the bond, lowering the overall
energy. In addition, if the H atoms are at the corners of a tetrahedron,
they will be further apart, which will lessen the electron-electron
repulsions
Post by Richard Schultz
between the bonding pairs.
---------
and why do you think that the N Atom orbitas are
tetrahedral
while those of P are not ??!!
what makes the difference??

----------------

-----------

If the lowering of energy from these two
Post by Brian Salter-Duke
Post by Richard Schultz
Post by Richard Schultz
sources overcomes the energy needed to create the hybrids, then the
tetrahedral structure will be more stable than the structure using p
orbitals
see my above question

-------------
Post by Brian Salter-Duke
Post by Richard Schultz
Post by Richard Schultz
alone. In the case of N, the effects do compensate, and the N atom
does hybridize.
In the case of the other atoms, however, the gap in energy between the
s and p orbitals is larger than it is for N,
Wait a minute. The spacing between orbitals gets smaller as n increases.
The spacing between s and p increases because the difference in shielding by
the inner core electrons of s and p increases.
the spacing increase in which direction?

the radial direction or the 'spherical ' direction??

ther are two posibilities to take in to acount!
----------


There is in effect more
Post by Brian Salter-Duke
to be gained by the s getting into the core region. This means that
hybridisation as we know it for C, N and O does not occur so easily for
Si, P etc. The bond angle in PH3 and SH2 is close to 90.
------
why is it 90 deg in the P S atoms
and not in the C N Atoms??

2 is it possible that the bond agngle
is more important than other factors ??

--------------

TIA
Y.Porat
--------------



As one goes
Post by Brian Salter-Duke
further down the s drops pretty well into the core and this accounts for
Pb(II) being more stable than Pb(IV), although relativistic effects are
also important.
To get some numbers on this, do ab initio MO calculations on CH4, SiH4
and GeH4 and look at the orbital energies.
Post by Richard Schultz
Post by Richard Schultz
which means that more energy
has to be added to the atom to create the hybrids. Not only that, the
atoms themselves are larger, which puts the bonding pairs further apart, so
there is less bonding pair-bonding pair repulsion to begin with. That
means
Post by Richard Schultz
that forming the tetrahedral structure costs more energy but returns less,
and so the unhybridized structure is the more stable one. In this model,
the actual H-A-H angle of 91-93 degrees indicates a very small amount of
mixing in of p character.
One piece of evidence that this model provides a reasonable explanation of
the structures is the relative basicities of the compounds: NH3 is orders
of magnitude more basic than any of the others. Since the lone pair in
NH3 is in an sp3 orbital directed away from the bonding orbitals, making
it a good proton acceptor to form NH4+. On the other hand, for the
remaining
Post by Richard Schultz
AH3 compounds, the lone pair is in an s orbital, which is spherically
symmetric and hence will only bind poorly to a proton, and we find that
these
Post by Richard Schultz
compounds are essentially *not* basic.
As for your question about VSEPR, you have to understand that the VSEPR
model is basically a fairy tale invented to account for the known
structures
Post by Richard Schultz
of compounds. In the case of AH3, it only "works" if you know in advance
that for every compound except for NH3, the lone pair remains in an s
orbital. Within the VSEPR model, if we exclude participation of the
valence
Post by Richard Schultz
s orbital, then the most reasonable structure is the one using the three
p orbitals. (A "T-shaped" structure with a "3-center, 2-electron" bond
is presumably of higher energy because of the bonding pair-lone pair
repulsions.)
I hope that this helps to answer your question.
-----
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and
if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
--
Brian Salter-Duke Spotswood, Melbourne, Australia
Brian Salter-Duke
2005-06-22 12:12:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@012.net.il
Post by Brian Salter-Duke
Post by Richard Schultz
Post by Richard Schultz
: i have read that the difference in the shape of molecule of NH3 and
: PH3 stems from different hybridization. can anybody explain me this?
: electron configurations of N and P are rather similar (2s2 2p3 and 3s2
: 3p3). why they are different in shape? is VSEPRT helpful in this case?
While you have so far received at least one wrong answer, I haven't seen
any explanations so far (except for the one that I had almost finished
when there was a power failure). So here's something of an answer to
your question.
One thing that you have to realize is that most people who learn
introductory
Post by Richard Schultz
chemistry are taught hybridization more or less exactly backwards. The
concept of hybridization is used to explain an already known structure, not
to predict the structure of a molecule given its formula.
Now let's consider the compounds of the general formula AH3 (A = a Group 15
(aka Group VA) atom). Since the ground-state configuration for each atom
A is s2p3, we might think a priori that the atom can form three covalent
bonds contributing one electron in each of the three p orbitals. The two
remaining electrons would still be in the (full) s orbital. According to
this model, the H-A-H angle should be 90 degrees, and indeed, for
A = P, As, Sb, that is more or less what we do see. For A = N (NH3),
however,
Post by Richard Schultz
the H-N-H angle is more like 107 degrees. How can we explain that
deviation
Post by Richard Schultz
from the expected geometry?
One model that can explain this is *hybridization*. In "hybridization,"
_n_ atomic orbitals combine to form _n_ "hybrid" orbitals, which in the
most commonly used scheme are linear combinations (sums and differences)
of the atomic orbitals. It is possible to show mathematically that the
mathematical combination of one s and one p yields two "sp" orbitals that
are identical except for their direction (they face 180 degrees apart); the
combinations of one s and two p yield three "sp2" orbitals, pointing 120
degrees apart; and the combinations of one s and three p orbitals yield
four "sp3" orbitals, which point at the corners of a tetrahedron (H-A-H
angle of about 109.5 degrees). From the point of view of this model, the
orbitals of the central N atom seem to be most accurately described as
being "sp3" hybrids. Since the H-N-H angle is a little smaller than would
"sp3 hybrids." Since the actual H-N-H angle is a bit smaller than pure
sp3 hybridization would predict, the orbitals that form the bonds are said
to have slightly more "p character" than pure sp3 orbitals would; that is,
instead of a 1:1:1:1 combination of s and three p orbitals, the s component
is slightly less than 1, and the p components larger by an equivalent
amount.
Post by Richard Schultz
According to this model, the two remaining electrons from the N atom will
be in the fourth sp3 orbital, which points toward the fourth corner of
the tetrahedron.
So far, all that we have shown is that hybridization can account for the
structure of the molecule. The next question is whether or not this
scheme is sensible from the point of view of the energy. Since the p
orbitals
Post by Richard Schultz
are higher in energy than the s orbitals, in order to create these
hybrids, we have to add energy to the atom. On the other hand, we get back
energy for two reasons: first of all, the "overlap" between the N orbital
and the H (1s) orbital will be greater for the hybrid orbital than for
the p orbital alone, which stabilizes the bond, lowering the overall
energy. In addition, if the H atoms are at the corners of a tetrahedron,
they will be further apart, which will lessen the electron-electron
repulsions
Post by Richard Schultz
between the bonding pairs.
---------
and why do you think that the N Atom orbitas are
tetrahedral
while those of P are not ??!!
what makes the difference??
----------------
-----------
If the lowering of energy from these two
Post by Brian Salter-Duke
Post by Richard Schultz
Post by Richard Schultz
sources overcomes the energy needed to create the hybrids, then the
tetrahedral structure will be more stable than the structure using p
orbitals
see my above question
-------------
Post by Brian Salter-Duke
Post by Richard Schultz
Post by Richard Schultz
alone. In the case of N, the effects do compensate, and the N atom
does hybridize.
In the case of the other atoms, however, the gap in energy between the
s and p orbitals is larger than it is for N,
Wait a minute. The spacing between orbitals gets smaller as n increases.
The spacing between s and p increases because the difference in shielding by
the inner core electrons of s and p increases.
the spacing increase in which direction?
I nmeant in energy. The difference in energy between s and p orbitals is
larger in P than in N.
Post by m***@012.net.il
the radial direction or the 'spherical ' direction??
ther are two posibilities to take in to acount!
----------
There is in effect more
Post by Brian Salter-Duke
to be gained by the s getting into the core region. This means that
hybridisation as we know it for C, N and O does not occur so easily for
Si, P etc. The bond angle in PH3 and SH2 is close to 90.
------
why is it 90 deg in the P S atoms
and not in the C N Atoms??
Because the bonding in PH3 and SH2 is in broad terms described by
overlap of the P or S p orbitals which are at 90 deg to each other with
the H 1s orbital. In C and N the s orbitals on C or N are involved as
well as the p orbitals so the angle moves out closer to the tetrahedral
angle.
Post by m***@012.net.il
2 is it possible that the bond agngle
is more important than other factors ??
--------------
TIA
Y.Porat
--------------
As one goes
Post by Brian Salter-Duke
further down the s drops pretty well into the core and this accounts for
Pb(II) being more stable than Pb(IV), although relativistic effects are
also important.
To get some numbers on this, do ab initio MO calculations on CH4, SiH4
and GeH4 and look at the orbital energies.
Post by Richard Schultz
Post by Richard Schultz
which means that more energy
has to be added to the atom to create the hybrids. Not only that, the
atoms themselves are larger, which puts the bonding pairs further apart, so
there is less bonding pair-bonding pair repulsion to begin with. That
means
Post by Richard Schultz
that forming the tetrahedral structure costs more energy but returns less,
and so the unhybridized structure is the more stable one. In this model,
the actual H-A-H angle of 91-93 degrees indicates a very small amount of
mixing in of p character.
One piece of evidence that this model provides a reasonable explanation of
the structures is the relative basicities of the compounds: NH3 is orders
of magnitude more basic than any of the others. Since the lone pair in
NH3 is in an sp3 orbital directed away from the bonding orbitals, making
it a good proton acceptor to form NH4+. On the other hand, for the
remaining
Post by Richard Schultz
AH3 compounds, the lone pair is in an s orbital, which is spherically
symmetric and hence will only bind poorly to a proton, and we find that
these
Post by Richard Schultz
compounds are essentially *not* basic.
As for your question about VSEPR, you have to understand that the VSEPR
model is basically a fairy tale invented to account for the known
structures
Post by Richard Schultz
of compounds. In the case of AH3, it only "works" if you know in advance
that for every compound except for NH3, the lone pair remains in an s
orbital. Within the VSEPR model, if we exclude participation of the
valence
Post by Richard Schultz
s orbital, then the most reasonable structure is the one using the three
p orbitals. (A "T-shaped" structure with a "3-center, 2-electron" bond
is presumably of higher energy because of the bonding pair-lone pair
repulsions.)
I hope that this helps to answer your question.
-----
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and
if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
--
Brian Salter-Duke Spotswood, Melbourne, Australia
--
Brian Salter-Duke Spotswood, Melbourne, Australia
Richard Schultz
2005-06-22 07:13:39 UTC
Permalink
I hope you don't mind my asking you to edit your posts in the future -- I
didn't find your comment on my original post until after I read someone
else's followup.

In article <d999al$m7p$***@puck.cc.emory.edu>, Lloyd Parker <***@emory.edu> wrote:
: In article <d938si$fth$***@news.iucc.ac.il>,
: ***@mail.biu.ack.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

:>In the case of the other atoms, however, the gap in energy between the
:>s and p orbitals is larger than it is for N,

: Wait a minute. The spacing between orbitals gets smaller as n increases.

While I probably should have looked up the information myself instead of
taking a book's word for it, I should point out that the "energy gap"
needs to be defined more carefully. One way of estimating the difference
in energy levels between the s and p orbitals is to measure the difference
in the amount of energy that it takes to remove an s electron (yielding the
lowest-energy term of the sp3 configuration of the ion) and the amount of
energy that it takes to remove a p electron (yielding the ground state
s2p2 configuration of the ion). For P, that difference is about 46700 cm-1,
while for N, it is about 45400 cm-1. Admittedly, 1300 cm-1 isn't a whole
heck of a lot of energy, implying that the main effect limiting hybridization
in the larger atoms is that they are larger and the e-e repulsions among
the bonding electrons are smaller.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Attila the Bum
2005-06-22 16:30:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
I hope you don't mind my asking you to edit your posts in the future -- I
didn't find your comment on my original post until after I read someone
else's followup.
Right! He's the asshole, not you!
Post by Richard Schultz
:>In the case of the other atoms, however, the gap in energy between the
:>s and p orbitals is larger than it is for N,
: Wait a minute. The spacing between orbitals gets smaller as n increases.
[snip slime ...]

That's a yea or nay situation,
Richie. You failed to address
it |-)

[snip ...]

The "educator" blames the book!


Atty (...)
Lloyd Parker
2005-06-22 14:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
I hope you don't mind my asking you to edit your posts in the future -- I
didn't find your comment on my original post until after I read someone
else's followup.
:>In the case of the other atoms, however, the gap in energy between the
:>s and p orbitals is larger than it is for N,
: Wait a minute. The spacing between orbitals gets smaller as n increases.
While I probably should have looked up the information myself instead of
taking a book's word for it, I should point out that the "energy gap"
needs to be defined more carefully. One way of estimating the difference
in energy levels between the s and p orbitals is to measure the difference
in the amount of energy that it takes to remove an s electron (yielding the
lowest-energy term of the sp3 configuration of the ion) and the amount of
energy that it takes to remove a p electron (yielding the ground state
s2p2 configuration of the ion). For P, that difference is about 46700 cm-1,
while for N, it is about 45400 cm-1. Admittedly, 1300 cm-1 isn't a whole
heck of a lot of energy, implying that the main effect limiting
hybridization
Post by Richard Schultz
in the larger atoms is that they are larger and the e-e repulsions among
the bonding electrons are smaller.
Thanks! I learned something! Someone once said, "It's a good day when you
learn something new."

So can you generalize this that all 3rd row and lower elements don't use
hybridization? Si would probably, wouldn't it? Along with any atom forming
4 bonds or more?
Post by Richard Schultz
-----
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Joshua Halpern
2005-06-23 00:30:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
I hope you don't mind my asking you to edit your posts in the future -- I
didn't find your comment on my original post until after I read someone
else's followup.
:>In the case of the other atoms, however, the gap in energy between the
:>s and p orbitals is larger than it is for N,
: Wait a minute. The spacing between orbitals gets smaller as n increases.
While I probably should have looked up the information myself instead of
taking a book's word for it, I should point out that the "energy gap"
needs to be defined more carefully. One way of estimating the difference
in energy levels between the s and p orbitals is to measure the difference
in the amount of energy that it takes to remove an s electron (yielding the
lowest-energy term of the sp3 configuration of the ion) and the amount of
energy that it takes to remove a p electron (yielding the ground state
s2p2 configuration of the ion). For P, that difference is about 46700 cm-1,
while for N, it is about 45400 cm-1. Admittedly, 1300 cm-1 isn't a whole
heck of a lot of energy, implying that the main effect limiting hybridization
in the larger atoms is that they are larger and the e-e repulsions among
the bonding electrons are smaller.
It is about 1/7 of an eV, or about 6 times more than the average thermal
energy of a molecule at room temperature. In other words, that is
significant.
Richard Schultz
2005-06-23 04:03:52 UTC
Permalink
In article <Aonue.1877$***@trnddc02>, Joshua Halpern <***@verizon.net> wrote:

:> Admittedly, 1300 cm-1 isn't a whole
:> heck of a lot of energy, implying that the main effect limiting hybridization
:> in the larger atoms is that they are larger and the e-e repulsions among
:> the bonding electrons are smaller.

: It is about 1/7 of an eV, or about 6 times more than the average thermal
: energy of a molecule at room temperature. In other words, that is
: significant.

Actually, it's more like 1/6 of an eV, and while that's significant
relative to the thermal energy of a molecule, it's not clear to me how
significant it is relative to the overall energy of the bonding --
the H2N-H bond dissociation energy is 4.7 eV, and the H2P-H bond
dissociation energy is 3.5 eV.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
And when I found the door was shut,
I tried to turn the handle, but --
Joshua Halpern
2005-06-24 03:07:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
:> Admittedly, 1300 cm-1 isn't a whole
:> heck of a lot of energy, implying that the main effect limiting hybridization
:> in the larger atoms is that they are larger and the e-e repulsions among
:> the bonding electrons are smaller.
: It is about 1/7 of an eV, or about 6 times more than the average thermal
: energy of a molecule at room temperature. In other words, that is
: significant.
Actually, it's more like 1/6 of an eV, and while that's significant
relative to the thermal energy of a molecule, it's not clear to me how
significant it is relative to the overall energy of the bonding --
the H2N-H bond dissociation energy is 4.7 eV, and the H2P-H bond
dissociation energy is 3.5 eV.
Point is that if the molecule is in the lower energy configuration it
will never be thermally excited out of it. If it is in the higher
energy state, unless there is a significant barrier it will. Think of
it as akin to an isomerization.

josh halpern
m***@012.net.il
2005-06-23 11:22:28 UTC
Permalink
since i am not a chemist but

knows something about nuclear and Atomic structre
in some spects -a bit more than anyone

i think i could shed some light on that issue
but i need some data

and i guess that you chemists will do it much easier than me (getting
the data)
so my simple question is :
what is the energy bindings of the hydrogen in the following compounds

N H3
PH3
AsH3
SnH3

i dont ask about BiH3 because i read myself that is is hadly composed
and decompose nealy imediately.

TIA
Y.Porat
------------------------------
Richard Schultz
2005-06-23 12:33:55 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, ***@012.net.il wrote:

: so my simple question is :
: what is the energy bindings of the hydrogen in the following compounds
:
: NH3
: PH3
: AsH3
: SnH3

H2N-H is 108.6 kcal/mol
H2P-H is 80.9 kcal/mol

I don't know the others, but you can get the necessary information from
the NIST WebBook and calculate them yourself.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
And when I found the door was shut,
I tried to turn the handle, but --
m***@012.net.il
2005-06-23 15:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Richard

yet i still miss the heavier ones
while those heavier ones might be more meaninful fo rme

as i saied before th edifference btween N and P is very obvious fo rme
it is a direct result from nuclear structre:
N is from the tetraheder family
P is from the 'rectangular pipe' nuclei
you and anyonme can see it obviously and tangibly in my humble site

btw my site include (ocationally) at its end even the heavy nuc and
atom *Bismuth
at the end of my site
there is the schmatic nuclear shceme that i dont expect anyone who dont
have my book
to understand it
but there is there as well, a little schematic 3d cube with
extending 'arms' that symbolises
the atomic structure ie the edge orbitals (on which the electrons arel
ocated)
and it sayes a lot about possoble chemical and crystalline properties.
that belong theorethcally to that column in the periodic table

but is very different in its edge chain of orbitals
the end nuclei orbitals(from which the electron stems) in the Bismuth
Atom
are two Deutron orbitals while
N P and Sn has the 'Alpha particle proton' as an edge particle
and it makes a differnce from many aspects chemical
crystalline etc
(the deutron edge orbital is directed to another angel in space
and is a deutron orbital and not an alpha orbital ......
so it makes other diferences as well)
so it is much more fundamental than just being' further way from the
nuc'
that is may be one of the reasons that say Bismuth is more 'methalic'
than the lighter ones
even Sb is different- and has deutron orbital edges.(and not the
;alphas')


2 i will try that Web book you mentioned
not usre i will know how to use it
so if someone will volunteer to do it (to spoon feed me ....)
i will appraciate it very much
all the best
Y.Porat
-----------------------------
monika hohlmeier
2005-06-23 13:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
For P, that difference is about 46700
cm-1,
while for N, it is about 45400 cm-1.
Right, the point is that it remains almost constant, while the potential
energy gain per bond formed decreases when going down in the periodic
table.

The other important effect is that the size of the s and p orbitals becomes
vastly different for the heavier elements, so that hybridization does not
make much sense any more.

For the German speaking community:

Rudolf Janoschek: Kohlenstoff und Silizium - wie verschieden koennen
homologe Elemente sein?, Chemie in unserer Zeit, Vol. 22, p. 128-138, 1988
b***@gmail.com
2020-04-29 10:02:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by josef muller
hello,
i have read that the difference in the shape of molecule of NH3 and
PH3 stems from different hybridization. can anybody explain me this?
electron configurations of N and P are rather similar (2s2 2p3 and 3s2
3p3). why they are different in shape? is VSEPRT helpful in this case?
thank you.
See...
Its the case of Drago's rule.
It is an empirical rule used to explain the bond angles of group 15 and 16.
According to this, when the following conditions are satisfied, the energy difference between the participating orbitals will be very high and thus no mixing or hybridization takes place. The conditions are :
1) the central atom must be of 3rd, 4th, 5th period,etc.
2) The central atom should have atleast 1 lone pair
3) No. of lone pair + bond pair = 4
4) The electronegativity of the surrounding atom must be less than or equal to 2.5 .

So, apart from NH3, the hydrides of the other group members have no hybridisation, but would have triagonal pyramidal shape ...But NH3 has sp3 hybridisation and triagonal pyrimadial shape...

Hope you understood :
d***@gmail.com
2020-08-10 08:00:23 UTC
Permalink
PH3 has no hybridization due to Drago's rule
d***@gmail.com
2020-08-10 08:01:45 UTC
Permalink
Oh, I am replying 15 years late, you asked it on my birth year, i hope you got the answer on time!
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