Turkish name of Khasoggi

[Ruud Harmsen]

The Turkish way to write Khasoggi is
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 !

[wugi]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The Turkish way to write Khasoggi is
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 !

Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 Turkish??? :-o

[António Marques]

Post by wugi

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The Turkish way to write Khasoggi is
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 !

Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 Turkish??? :-o

I don’t know what’s up with Ruud lately. He never used to be this way.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 13:09:59 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by wugi

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The Turkish way to write Khasoggi is
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 !

Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 Turkish??? :-o

I don’t know what’s up with Ruud lately. He never used to be this way.

You never saved or shared a Wikipedia link that contained special
characters?

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 13:09:59 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by wugi

The Turkish way to write Khashoggi is
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 !

Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 Turkish??? :-o

I don’t know what’s up with Ruud lately. He never used to be this way.

Nonsense. I suspect you know perfectly well what I meant to say in
this post and why I posted it like I did.

[António Marques]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 30 Oct 2018 13:09:59 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by wugi

The Turkish way to write Khashoggi is
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 !

Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 Turkish??? :-o

I don’t know what’s up with Ruud lately. He never used to be this way.

Nonsense. I suspect you know perfectly well what I meant to say in
this post and why I posted it like I did.

I do know you meant to point us to a page where the name is written and
described. I cannot fathom why you chose to do it this way:
- providing a link to a 2-3 paragraph piece of text is crude, you are
expected to paste the text in polite company
- Wiki’s percent-encoded UTF-8 is absurd in these days that allow Unicode
domain names, you are expected not to propagate it in polite company
- we know the name is Turkish, it’s odd to start a thread just to mention
that. But it’s okay if you do write at least 1 sentence more than just
providing the link, and you didn’t do that.

Lately you’ve been doing this sort of thing. But only lately. Seldom
before.

[Ymir]

Post by António Marques

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 13:09:59 -0000 (UTC): Ant—nio Marques

Post by wugi

The Turkish way to write Khashoggi is
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 !

Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 Turkish??? :-o

I don’t know what’s up with Ruud lately. He never used to be this way.

Nonsense. I suspect you know perfectly well what I meant to say in
this post and why I posted it like I did.

I do know you meant to point us to a page where the name is written and
- providing a link to a 2-3 paragraph piece of text is crude, you are
expected to paste the text in polite company
- Wiki’s percent-encoded UTF-8 is absurd in these days that allow Unicode
domain names, you are expected not to propagate it in polite company
- we know the name is Turkish, it’s odd to start a thread just to mention
that. But it’s okay if you do write at least 1 sentence more than just
providing the link, and you didn’t do that.
Lately you’ve been doing this sort of thing. But only lately. Seldom
before.

While the current usenet specification (RFC 5537) allows for UTF-8, it
strongly recommends restricting your character set to ASCII. Many
newsreaders *and newservers* do not support UTF-8 since the original
NNTP specification restricted usenet messages to 7-bit ASCII encodings.

So there are in fact good reasons for doing things the way he did. Non-
ASCII text will often become mangled in transit. Remember that usenet is
a palaeolithic technology.

Andre

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Ymir
While the current usenet specification (RFC 5537) allows for UTF-8, it
strongly recommends restricting your character set to ASCII. Many
newsreaders *and newservers* do not support UTF-8 since the original
NNTP specification restricted usenet messages to 7-bit ASCII encodings.

FUD.
Newsservers have been transparent to 8-bit characters since people
transitioned away from B News. On the client side, the Multipurpose
Internet Mail Extensions (MIME, RFC1341, 1992) have been applied
on top of RFC1036 since the 1990s, because, you know, there are
languages other than English and US-ASCII is mostly insufficient
for them.

There's some ancient crap, like the newsreader that Ruud uses, that
is limited to ISO Latin 1 with MIME encoding, but a restriction to
ASCII is laughable.

DID YOU KNOW THERE WERE TEXT
TERMINALS THAT DID NOT SUPPORT
LOWER CASE CHARACTERS? BETTER BE
SAFE.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 17:12:40 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber

Post by Christian Weisgerber
There's some ancient crap, like the newsreader that Ruud uses, that
is limited to ISO Latin 1 with MIME encoding,

True. But I like this program, and newer versions were unusably
different.

Post by Christian Weisgerber
but a restriction to ASCII is laughable.

Please note, AGAIN, that _I_ didn't create the ASCII URL. It is done
automatically in Firefox or Wikipedia. or the two together.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 17:12:40 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber

Post by Christian Weisgerber
There's some ancient crap, like the newsreader that Ruud uses, that
is limited to ISO Latin 1 with MIME encoding, but a restriction to
ASCII is laughable.

Well, but if this thread is so objectionable to so many people, I'd
rather delete it if technically possible. I thought it might be
interesting to some people. I was only trying to help. The only
responses are about irrelevant technical details.

[Ymir]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Ymir
While the current usenet specification (RFC 5537) allows for UTF-8, it
strongly recommends restricting your character set to ASCII.

My bad -- I typed ASCII here when I actually intended ISO Latin-1

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Ymir
Many
newsreaders *and newservers* do not support UTF-8 since the original
NNTP specification restricted usenet messages to 7-bit ASCII encodings.

FUD.
Newsservers have been transparent to 8-bit characters since people
transitioned away from B News. On the client side, the Multipurpose
Internet Mail Extensions (MIME, RFC1341, 1992) have been applied
on top of RFC1036 since the 1990s, because, you know, there are
languages other than English and US-ASCII is mostly insufficient
for them.
There's some ancient crap, like the newsreader that Ruud uses, that
is limited to ISO Latin 1 with MIME encoding, but a restriction to
ASCII is laughable.

Yes, newsservers are (or should be) 8-bit transparent, but the RFC5537
still recommends favouring Latin-1 (which lacks some Turkish characters)
over UTF-8. This is largely because usenet has been effectively dead for
decades now and there are some (albeit not many) servers still up and
running that haven't actually been updated since the last millennium.

I wasn't suggesting that people *shouldn't* post using UTF-8. I was
pointing out that there are good reasons why someone might deliberately
opt *not* to post using UTF-8 for maximal compatibility.

[note that my own newsreader is one of those pieces of ancient crap,
largely because on the Mac side the only newsreaders still actively
supported are also crap albeit for other reasons; however, I don't
expect other people to accommodate my choice of newsreader]

Andre

[Ruud Harmsen]

Post by Ymir
Yes, newsservers are (or should be) 8-bit transparent, but the RFC5537
still recommends favouring Latin-1 (which lacks some Turkish characters)
over UTF-8. This is largely because usenet has been effectively dead for
decades now and there are some (albeit not many) servers still up and
running that haven't actually been updated since the last millennium.

No problem, because UTF-8 was designed to survive Latin-1 compliant
transport and handling, except that display goes wrong.

[António Marques]

Post by Ymir

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Ymir
While the current usenet specification (RFC 5537) allows for UTF-8, it
strongly recommends restricting your character set to ASCII.

My bad -- I typed ASCII here when I actually intended ISO Latin-1

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Ymir
Many
newsreaders *and newservers* do not support UTF-8 since the original
NNTP specification restricted usenet messages to 7-bit ASCII encodings.

FUD.
Newsservers have been transparent to 8-bit characters since people
transitioned away from B News. On the client side, the Multipurpose
Internet Mail Extensions (MIME, RFC1341, 1992) have been applied
on top of RFC1036 since the 1990s, because, you know, there are
languages other than English and US-ASCII is mostly insufficient
for them.
There's some ancient crap, like the newsreader that Ruud uses, that
is limited to ISO Latin 1 with MIME encoding, but a restriction to
ASCII is laughable.

Yes, newsservers are (or should be) 8-bit transparent, but the RFC5537
still recommends favouring Latin-1 (which lacks some Turkish characters)
over UTF-8. This is largely because usenet has been effectively dead for
decades now and there are some (albeit not many) servers still up and
running that haven't actually been updated since the last millennium.

That is weird - If the server can’t cope with 8 bits, it will mess up
Latin-1 as well. If it can leave the 8 bits alone, then it should matter
little what 8-bit encoding you use, it’s up to the client to decide it.

Post by Ymir
I wasn't suggesting that people *shouldn't* post using UTF-8. I was
pointing out that there are good reasons why someone might deliberately
opt *not* to post using UTF-8 for maximal compatibility.
[note that my own newsreader is one of those pieces of ancient crap,
largely because on the Mac side the only newsreaders still actively
supported are also crap albeit for other reasons; however, I don't
expect other people to accommodate my choice of newsreader]

Doesn’t Thunderbird meet your needs?

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:13:50 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by Ymir
[note that my own newsreader is one of those pieces of ancient crap,
largely because on the Mac side the only newsreaders still actively
supported are also crap albeit for other reasons; however, I don't
expect other people to accommodate my choice of newsreader]

Doesn’t Thunderbird meet your needs?

I tried it, several times, but found it unusably weird and cumbersome.
But I thought the same of Agent when I first used it.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:13:50 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Ymir
[note that my own newsreader is one of those pieces of ancient crap,
largely because on the Mac side the only newsreaders still actively
supported are also crap albeit for other reasons; however, I don't
expect other people to accommodate my choice of newsreader]

Doesn’t Thunderbird meet your needs?

I tried it, several times, but found it unusably weird and cumbersome.
But I thought the same of Agent when I first used it.

Well, I use thunderbird and I'm quite happy with it.
I don't understand why you say it's unusably weird and cumbersome.
I find it really obvious and practical.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ymir
I wasn't suggesting that people *shouldn't* post using UTF-8. I was
pointing out that there are good reasons why someone might deliberately
opt *not* to post using UTF-8 for maximal compatibility.

Not, though, in a linguistics group.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 09:31:06 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ymir
I wasn't suggesting that people *shouldn't* post using UTF-8. I was
pointing out that there are good reasons why someone might deliberately
opt *not* to post using UTF-8 for maximal compatibility.

Not, though, in a linguistics group.

Because English is the facto lingua franca of linguistics, of science
in general, and English, as everybody knows, requires full Unicode and
cannot be written in ASCII. That's because ASCII means AMERICAN
Standard Code for Information Interchange, and Americans scientists
use a very special particular specific non standard kind of English
that cannot be written in that encoding. Such a shame.

By the way, Peter, did you know that ASCII is a subset of UTF-8? By
design. So not posting in UTF-8 is impossible, unless we include those
old IBM charsets. Or UTF-16.

As soon as you are posting in ASCII, you also post in Latin-1 AND in
UTF-8, guilty as charged. Latin-1 is not a direct subset of UTF-8,
though, although it is, indirectly, after a constant scalar shift.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 1 Nov 2018 09:31:06 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ymir
I wasn't suggesting that people *shouldn't* post using UTF-8. I was
pointing out that there are good reasons why someone might deliberately
opt *not* to post using UTF-8 for maximal compatibility.

Not, though, in a linguistics group.

Because English is the facto lingua franca of linguistics, of science

Linguistics deals with many languages other than English, and whether they
are recorded in their own orthography, in phonetic or phonemic transcription,
or in roman transliteration, more characters are needed than are found in
ASCII or even (except for Western Europe) "upper ASCII."

Post by Ruud Harmsen
in general, and English, as everybody knows, requires full Unicode and
cannot be written in ASCII. That's because ASCII means AMERICAN
Standard Code for Information Interchange, and Americans scientists
use a very special particular specific non standard kind of English
that cannot be written in that encoding. Such a shame.

Linguistics is not an "American" science. The Unicode Consortium has many
American members. (Even though Michael Everson now lives in Ireland, he is
American -- or else he did a fantastically good job of assuming an American
accent back in 1998 or so when I met him.)

Post by Ruud Harmsen
By the way, Peter, did you know that ASCII is a subset of UTF-8? By
design. So not posting in UTF-8 is impossible, unless we include those
old IBM charsets. Or UTF-16.

Refusing to post in any Unicode block other than the first one is antisocial.

Post by Ruud Harmsen
As soon as you are posting in ASCII, you also post in Latin-1 AND in
UTF-8, guilty as charged. Latin-1 is not a direct subset of UTF-8,
though, although it is, indirectly, after a constant scalar shift.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 13:43:56 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
in general, and English, as everybody knows, requires full Unicode and
cannot be written in ASCII. That's because ASCII means AMERICAN
Standard Code for Information Interchange, and Americans scientists
use a very special particular specific non standard kind of English
that cannot be written in that encoding. Such a shame.

Linguistics is not an "American" science.

Strawman: I didn't say so.
And: you missed the irony.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 13:43:56 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Because English is the facto lingua franca of linguistics, of science

Linguistics deals with many languages other than English, and whether they
are recorded in their own orthography, in phonetic or phonemic transcription,
or in roman transliteration, more characters are needed than are found in
ASCII or even (except for Western Europe) "upper ASCII."

I know, and I live after it on my website, have done so for some 20
years.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 13:43:56 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 1 Nov 2018 09:31:06 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ymir
I wasn't suggesting that people *shouldn't* post using UTF-8. I was
pointing out that there are good reasons why someone might deliberately
opt *not* to post using UTF-8 for maximal compatibility.

Not, though, in a linguistics group.

Because English is the facto lingua franca of linguistics, of science

Linguistics deals with many languages other than English, and whether they
are recorded in their own orthography, in phonetic or phonemic transcription,
or in roman transliteration, more characters are needed than are found in
ASCII or even (except for Western Europe) "upper ASCII."

Post by Ruud Harmsen
in general, and English, as everybody knows, requires full Unicode and
cannot be written in ASCII. That's because ASCII means AMERICAN
Standard Code for Information Interchange, and Americans scientists
use a very special particular specific non standard kind of English
that cannot be written in that encoding. Such a shame.

Linguistics is not an "American" science. The Unicode Consortium has many
American members. (Even though Michael Everson now lives in Ireland, he is
American -- or else he did a fantastically good job of assuming an American
accent back in 1998 or so when I met him.)

Post by Ruud Harmsen
By the way, Peter, did you know that ASCII is a subset of UTF-8? By
design. So not posting in UTF-8 is impossible, unless we include those
old IBM charsets. Or UTF-16.

Refusing to post in any Unicode block other than the first one is antisocial.

Really? Then you must be antisocial too. For this message of yours, as
are 99% of your other messages, is written in that block!!

Are you not aware of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies ?

Did you not notice that when it is relevant, I do post non Latin-1 and
know how to use the tools needed for that?

Did you not notice that I posted that dreadful percent encoded URL
specifally so other readers here would not be bothered by the
technical limitation of the old Usenet program I prefer to use?

And then _I_ am antosocial? So be it.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
As soon as you are posting in ASCII, you also post in Latin-1 AND in
UTF-8, guilty as charged. Latin-1 is not a direct subset of UTF-8,
though, although it is, indirectly, after a constant scalar shift.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 15:23:58 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques
I do know you meant to point us to a page where the name is written and

Because if I paste the name, it won't appear as it should.

Post by António Marques
- providing a link to a 2-3 paragraph piece of text is crude, you are
expected to paste the text in polite company

I can't, in the software I use, because then this is the result: Cemal
Kasikçi. I knew that beforehand, because I know which languages can be
written in ISO8859-1 and which cannot.

Post by António Marques
- Wiki’s percent-encoded UTF-8 is absurd in these days that allow Unicode
domain names, you are expected not to propagate it in polite company

What an utterly nonsensical remark. If I copy paste the link, it
AUTOMATICALLY and beyond my control appears like this. This is a
measure to make it portable, I guess. It is outragious to present this
as a reproach to me.

Post by António Marques
- we know the name is Turkish,

1) I didn't, it was only mentioned here that the SUFFIX might be
Turkish.
2) I had no idea it had a Turkish spelling, I happened to see it very
briefly in a video. When I tried to resee it, it didn't appear again.
That's why I checked the Turkish Wikipedia. Without that coincidence,
I might never have known.

Post by António Marques
it’s odd to start a thread just to mention that.

It's not. It's new information in the thread. Nobody mentioned that
spelling before.

Post by António Marques
But it’s okay if you do write at least 1 sentence more than just
providing the link, and you didn’t do that.

If you're too lazy to click a link, that's your problem, and the
ignorance in which that results is not my fault.

Post by António Marques
Lately you’ve been doing this sort of thing. But only lately. Seldom
before.

You have been annoying like this before. Years ago. Not often. Please
stop it.

[António Marques]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 30 Oct 2018 15:23:58 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques
I do know you meant to point us to a page where the name is written and

Because if I paste the name, it won't appear as it should.

Then you’re doing a disservice.

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by António Marques
- providing a link to a 2-3 paragraph piece of text is crude, you are
expected to paste the text in polite company

I can't, in the software I use, because then this is the result: Cemal
Kasikçi. I knew that beforehand, because I know which languages can be
written in ISO8859-1 and which cannot.

The guy who runs his own domain is locked inside Latin-1. Oh god.

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by António Marques
- Wiki’s percent-encoded UTF-8 is absurd in these days that allow Unicode
domain names, you are expected not to propagate it in polite company

What an utterly nonsensical remark. If I copy paste the link, it
AUTOMATICALLY and beyond my control appears like this. This is a
measure to make it portable, I guess. It is outragious to present this
as a reproach to me.

It’s not portable. No one is fluent in percent-encoding, %20 being about
the only thing that people can tolerate.

If your browser does show the proper characters, it probably means it’s
doing the translation itself. The url is as you wrote it, it’s not a
special effect of pasting.

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by António Marques
- we know the name is Turkish,

1) I didn't, it was only mentioned here that the SUFFIX might be
Turkish.

That was previously. %89%75%73%75%66 filled us in on it later on.

Post by Ruud Harmsen
2) I had no idea it had a Turkish spelling, I happened to see it very
briefly in a video. When I tried to resee it, it didn't appear again.
That's why I checked the Turkish Wikipedia. Without that coincidence,
I might never have known.

Post by António Marques
it’s odd to start a thread just to mention that.

It's not. It's new information in the thread. Nobody mentioned that
spelling before.

Post by António Marques
But it’s okay if you do write at least 1 sentence more than just
providing the link, and you didn’t do that.

If you're too lazy to click a link, that's your problem, and the
ignorance in which that results is not my fault.

It’s not proper etiquette to send a message consisting of just 3 words and
a link which takes you to only a couple of paragraphs.
Even were it a large page, it would be in order to quote or paraphrase a
little bit.

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by António Marques
Lately you’ve been doing this sort of thing. But only lately. Seldom
before.

You have been annoying like this before. Years ago. Not often. Please
stop it.

No can do. The reason I don’t do it often is you don’t call for it often.

I don’t get why you got so worked up about this. Nobody’s calling for a
fine for having started the the thread this way. Only pointing out issues
with it.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 21:39:04 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
I can't, in the software I use, because then this is the result: Cemal
Kasikçi. I knew that beforehand, because I know which languages can be
written in ISO8859-1 and which cannot.

The guy who runs his own domain is locked inside Latin-1. Oh god.

And what's the problem with that? ALL of the languages (with the
exception of Esperanto) I might EVER write in, are covered by Latin-1
/ ISO8859-1 / Windows 1251. If on my website I want to mention short
text fragments in languages outside the range Icelandic to Albinian
and Finnish to Portuguese, say Hungarian, Turkish, Greek, Arabic,
Hebrew, Yiddish, Bengali, I can handle that easily using entities. But
that doesn't work in Usenet.

Moreover my language of choice is now Interlingua, which requires only
ASCII, and very occasionally some Latin-1. Same for English and Dutch.

So I don't feel "locked" at all.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 21:39:04 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
What an utterly nonsensical remark. If I copy paste the link, it
AUTOMATICALLY and beyond my control appears like this. This is a
measure to make it portable, I guess. It is outragious to present this
as a reproach to me.

It’s not portable. No one is fluent in percent-encoding, %20 being about
the only thing that people can tolerate.

It IS portable if you use it as intended: by clicking on it. Percent
coding has never been intended for human consumption.

If your browser does show the proper characters, it probably means it’s
doing the translation itself. The url is as you wrote it, it’s not a
special effect of pasting.

How do you know? Did you get into it technically? Did you ever
copy-paste URLs yourself and did you get different results?

I'll test it. I start with
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi, then click through to
Turkish, copy the URL in various browsers and paste into various text
programs (all in Windows 10)..

Firefox => Word 2013: percent encoding
Firefox => Notepad: percent encoding
Firefox => Firefox: percent encoding

Chrome => Word 2013. Notepad, Chrome, Firefox: percent encoding.

Edge => same: readible Turkish!

The url is as you wrote it, it’s not a special effect of pasting.

That's right. It's a special effect of copying, in Firefox and Chrome,
but not Edge.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 30 Oct 2018 21:39:04 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
What an utterly nonsensical remark. If I copy paste the link, it
AUTOMATICALLY and beyond my control appears like this. This is a
measure to make it portable, I guess. It is outragious to present this
as a reproach to me.

It’s not portable. No one is fluent in percent-encoding, %20 being about
the only thing that people can tolerate.

It IS portable if you use it as intended: by clicking on it. Percent
coding has never been intended for human consumption.

Post by António Marques
If your browser does show the proper characters, it probably means it’s
doing the translation itself. The url is as you wrote it, it’s not a
special effect of pasting.

How do you know? Did you get into it technically? Did you ever
copy-paste URLs yourself and did you get different results?
I'll test it. I start with
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi, then click through to
Turkish, copy the URL in various browsers and paste into various text
programs (all in Windows 10)..
Firefox => Word 2013: percent encoding
Firefox => Notepad: percent encoding
Firefox => Firefox: percent encoding
Chrome => Word 2013. Notepad, Chrome, Firefox: percent encoding.
Edge => same: readible Turkish!

Post by António Marques
The url is as you wrote it, it’s not a special effect of pasting.

That's right. It's a special effect of copying, in Firefox and Chrome,
but not Edge.

Obviously, your problem is in your computer. You need to fix it if you
intend to continue to try to communicate here. I have no such problems
using Google Groups in Edge.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 06:46:55 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 30 Oct 2018 21:39:04 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
What an utterly nonsensical remark. If I copy paste the link, it
AUTOMATICALLY and beyond my control appears like this. This is a
measure to make it portable, I guess. It is outragious to present this
as a reproach to me.

It’s not portable. No one is fluent in percent-encoding, %20 being about
the only thing that people can tolerate.

It IS portable if you use it as intended: by clicking on it. Percent
coding has never been intended for human consumption.

If your browser does show the proper characters, it probably means it’s
doing the translation itself. The url is as you wrote it, it’s not a
special effect of pasting.

How do you know? Did you get into it technically? Did you ever
copy-paste URLs yourself and did you get different results?
I'll test it. I start with
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi, then click through to
Turkish, copy the URL in various browsers and paste into various text
programs (all in Windows 10)..
Firefox => Word 2013: percent encoding
Firefox => Notepad: percent encoding
Firefox => Firefox: percent encoding
Chrome => Word 2013. Notepad, Chrome, Firefox: percent encoding.
Edge => same: readible Turkish!

The url is as you wrote it, it’s not a special effect of pasting.

That's right. It's a special effect of copying, in Firefox and Chrome,
but not Edge.

Obviously, your problem is in your computer. You need to fix it if you
intend to continue to try to communicate here. I have no such problems
using Google Groups in Edge.

Google Groups causes other problems, like endlessly long lines, and
excessive quoting of miles of uncessary history.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 31 Oct 2018 06:46:55 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 30 Oct 2018 21:39:04 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
What an utterly nonsensical remark. If I copy paste the link, it
AUTOMATICALLY and beyond my control appears like this. This is a
measure to make it portable, I guess. It is outragious to present this
as a reproach to me.

It’s not portable. No one is fluent in percent-encoding, %20 being about
the only thing that people can tolerate.

It IS portable if you use it as intended: by clicking on it. Percent
coding has never been intended for human consumption.

Post by António Marques
If your browser does show the proper characters, it probably means it’s
doing the translation itself. The url is as you wrote it, it’s not a
special effect of pasting.

How do you know? Did you get into it technically? Did you ever
copy-paste URLs yourself and did you get different results?
I'll test it. I start with
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi, then click through to
Turkish, copy the URL in various browsers and paste into various text
programs (all in Windows 10)..
Firefox => Word 2013: percent encoding
Firefox => Notepad: percent encoding
Firefox => Firefox: percent encoding
Chrome => Word 2013. Notepad, Chrome, Firefox: percent encoding.
Edge => same: readible Turkish!

Post by António Marques
The url is as you wrote it, it’s not a special effect of pasting.

That's right. It's a special effect of copying, in Firefox and Chrome,
but not Edge.

Obviously, your problem is in your computer. You need to fix it if you
intend to continue to try to communicate here. I have no such problems
using Google Groups in Edge.

Google Groups causes other problems, like endlessly long lines, and
excessive quoting of miles of uncessary history.

Would you rather have the machine arbitrarily decide how much to quote?

Few GG users don't enter a carriage return at the end of a line. Those
who don't tend to be the ones most disregardable.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 07:33:22 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Obviously, your problem is in your computer. You need to fix it if you
intend to continue to try to communicate here. I have no such problems
using Google Groups in Edge.

Google Groups causes other problems, like endlessly long lines, and
excessive quoting of miles of uncessary history.

Would you rather have the machine arbitrarily decide how much to quote?

Strawman.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Few GG users don't enter a carriage return at the end of a line.

You mean you have to do that manually???

My super old-fashioned program does that automatically, given a
maximum length. And the even more old-fashioned program I used before
that, in 1994 or so, did that too.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Those who don't tend to be the ones most disregardable.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 31 Oct 2018 07:33:22 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Obviously, your problem is in your computer. You need to fix it if you
intend to continue to try to communicate here. I have no such problems
using Google Groups in Edge.

Google Groups causes other problems, like endlessly long lines, and
excessive quoting of miles of uncessary history.

Would you rather have the machine arbitrarily decide how much to quote?

Strawman.

You're the one that claimed that GG causes "excessive quoting." What is
the alternative?

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Few GG users don't enter a carriage return at the end of a line.

You mean you have to do that manually???

How else would it happen that most people have normal lines, and some
people don't?

Post by Ruud Harmsen
My super old-fashioned program does that automatically, given a
maximum length. And the even more old-fashioned program I used before
that, in 1994 or so, did that too.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Those who don't tend to be the ones most disregardable.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 10:47:58 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 31 Oct 2018 07:33:22 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Obviously, your problem is in your computer. You need to fix it if you
intend to continue to try to communicate here. I have no such problems
using Google Groups in Edge.

Google Groups causes other problems, like endlessly long lines, and
excessive quoting of miles of uncessary history.

Would you rather have the machine arbitrarily decide how much to quote?

Strawman.

You're the one that claimed that GG causes "excessive quoting." What is
the alternative?

Show people what they quote, not hide, so they are stimulated to quote
only what is necessary to understand what they are reacting to.

This has been know for almost 20 years and still nobody understands:
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/plyafter.htm

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Few GG users don't enter a carriage return at the end of a line.

You mean you have to do that manually???

How else would it happen that most people have normal lines, and some
people don't?

I don't know, I don't routinely check exactly which software and which
invisible-to-me options every poster in a thread or group uses.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
My super old-fashioned program does that automatically, given a
maximum length. And the even more old-fashioned program I used before
that, in 1994 or so, did that too.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Those who don't tend to be the ones most disregardable.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 31 Oct 2018 10:47:58 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 31 Oct 2018 07:33:22 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Obviously, your problem is in your computer. You need to fix it if you
intend to continue to try to communicate here. I have no such problems
using Google Groups in Edge.

Google Groups causes other problems, like endlessly long lines, and
excessive quoting of miles of uncessary history.

Would you rather have the machine arbitrarily decide how much to quote?

Strawman.

You're the one that claimed that GG causes "excessive quoting." What is
the alternative?

Show people what they quote, not hide, so they are stimulated to quote
only what is necessary to understand what they are reacting to.

When you click "Reply," the entire history is shown.

Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/plyafter.htm

Could it be, then, that it's you who is out of touch?

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Few GG users don't enter a carriage return at the end of a line.

You mean you have to do that manually???

How else would it happen that most people have normal lines, and some
people don't?

I don't know, I don't routinely check exactly which software and which
invisible-to-me options every poster in a thread or group uses.

Then why are you complaining about GG specifically? Jumping on a bandwagon?

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
My super old-fashioned program does that automatically, given a
maximum length. And the even more old-fashioned program I used before
that, in 1994 or so, did that too.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Those who don't tend to be the ones most disregardable.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 04:41:46 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Show people what they quote, not hide, so they are stimulated to quote
only what is necessary to understand what they are reacting to.

When you click "Reply," the entire history is shown.

Not in a genuine Usenet program. (Remember that Usenet is older than
the Internet, and MUCH older than the WorldWide Web.) However, I can
see earlier messages in the thread in a tree structure. But having to
click is cumbersome and tiring. Quotes are for a quick reminder,
immediately visible. Clutter impedes that.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/plyafter.htm

Could it be, then, that it's you who is out of touch?

No, that is impossible. Not with all the experience I have with
discussions, in Usenet, e-mail, twitter, Facebook, and several other
fora.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Few GG users don't enter a carriage return at the end of a line.

You mean you have to do that manually???

How else would it happen that most people have normal lines, and some
people don't?

I don't know, I don't routinely check exactly which software and which
invisible-to-me options every poster in a thread or group uses.

Then why are you complaining about GG specifically? Jumping on a bandwagon?

Because it causes ugly and unreadible messages, which start with 75
quotes that nobody needs.

And because GG had a reasonably good interface, but suddenly replaced
it by something unworkable for no reason. E.g. searching by message-ID
(a guaranteed unique key) is no longer possible. You cannot clearly
restrict searches to certain newsgroups. Things that are clearly
there, sometimes just aren't found. If you find a message, you have to
wait minutes for 40 other messages to load, that you didn't ask for,
and even then you often don't get to see the one you were looking for.

It's really a mess. A substandard product by incompetent interface
designers working for an arrogant company, that doesn't put the user
first place.

They did the same thing with Google Maps: it was OK, but it was
replaced for no reason. By something much worse.

IBM, Microsoft, Google, Apple: the history of arrogance repeating.

[António Marques]

[GG]'s really a mess. A substandard product by incompetent interface
designers working for an arrogant company, that doesn't put the user
first place.

Well, this passage is something I can be fully in agreement with.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:13:50 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

[GG]'s really a mess. A substandard product by incompetent interface
designers working for an arrogant company, that doesn't put the user
first place.

Well, this passage is something I can be fully in agreement with.

You can, but will you? A Letter in Intent does not suffice!

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 1 Nov 2018 04:41:46 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Show people what they quote, not hide, so they are stimulated to quote
only what is necessary to understand what they are reacting to.

When you click "Reply," the entire history is shown.

Not in a genuine Usenet program.

We are not talking about "genuine Usenet programs," whatever those are.
We are talking about Google Groups.

Post by Ruud Harmsen
(Remember that Usenet is older than
the Internet, and MUCH older than the WorldWide Web.) However, I can
see earlier messages in the thread in a tree structure. But having to
click is cumbersome and tiring. Quotes are for a quick reminder,
immediately visible. Clutter impedes that.

Exactly. "Having to click is cumbersome and tiring."

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/plyafter.htm

Could it be, then, that it's you who is out of touch?

No, that is impossible. Not with all the experience I have with
discussions, in Usenet, e-mail, twitter, Facebook, and several other
fora.

Yet you still can't type the most basic diacritics, phonetic symbols, or
non-roman scripts.

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Few GG users don't enter a carriage return at the end of a line.

You mean you have to do that manually???

How else would it happen that most people have normal lines, and some
people don't?

I don't know, I don't routinely check exactly which software and which
invisible-to-me options every poster in a thread or group uses.

Then why are you complaining about GG specifically? Jumping on a bandwagon?

Because it causes ugly and unreadible messages, which start with 75
quotes that nobody needs.

That is determined entirely by the user, and have you never participated
in a discussion where who said what when is important?

Post by Ruud Harmsen
And because GG had a reasonably good interface, but suddenly replaced
it by something unworkable for no reason. E.g. searching by message-ID
(a guaranteed unique key) is no longer possible. You cannot clearly
restrict searches to certain newsgroups. Things that are clearly
there, sometimes just aren't found. If you find a message, you have to
wait minutes for 40 other messages to load, that you didn't ask for,
and even then you often don't get to see the one you were looking for.

If you have to wait "minutes," the problem is definitely in your computer.

Post by Ruud Harmsen
It's really a mess. A substandard product by incompetent interface
designers working for an arrogant company, that doesn't put the user
first place.
They did the same thing with Google Maps: it was OK, but it was
replaced for no reason. By something much worse.
IBM, Microsoft, Google, Apple: the history of arrogance repeating.

So use systems made in your own country.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 09:29:47 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 1 Nov 2018 04:41:46 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Show people what they quote, not hide, so they are stimulated to quote
only what is necessary to understand what they are reacting to.

When you click "Reply," the entire history is shown.

Not in a genuine Usenet program.

We are not talking about "genuine Usenet programs," whatever those are.
We are talking about Google Groups.

GG is not a Usenet interface, but an interface to Google's database of
Usenet messages. Not the same thing.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
(Remember that Usenet is older than
the Internet, and MUCH older than the WorldWide Web.) However, I can
see earlier messages in the thread in a tree structure. But having to
click is cumbersome and tiring. Quotes are for a quick reminder,
immediately visible. Clutter impedes that.

Exactly. "Having to click is cumbersome and tiring."

That why I for one don't post clutter. Other do, especially GG users
you don't see what they post.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/plyafter.htm

Could it be, then, that it's you who is out of touch?

No, that is impossible. Not with all the experience I have with
discussions, in Usenet, e-mail, twitter, Facebook, and several other
fora.

Yet you still can't type the most basic diacritics, phonetic symbols, or
non-roman scripts.

I can and routinely do. On the web. I even abandoned Kirshenbaum and
Sampa and use genuine IPA in newer articles.

BTW, are àèìòùáéíóúýâêôîûäëïöüÿãõç (and the same in uppercase) part of
"basic diacritics" in your book?

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Because it causes ugly and unreadible messages, which start with 75
quotes that nobody needs.

That is determined entirely by the user, and have you never participated
in a discussion where who said what when is important?

Beg your pardon?? Did you actually read my almost 20 year old article
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/plyafter.htm that I mentioned before? It is
about exactly that!!!

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
And because GG had a reasonably good interface, but suddenly replaced
it by something unworkable for no reason. E.g. searching by message-ID
(a guaranteed unique key) is no longer possible. You cannot clearly
restrict searches to certain newsgroups. Things that are clearly
there, sometimes just aren't found. If you find a message, you have to
wait minutes for 40 other messages to load, that you didn't ask for,
and even then you often don't get to see the one you were looking for.

If you have to wait "minutes," the problem is definitely in your computer.

Or is my slow internet. But my own site responds in milliseconds. And
yes, GG itself is also slow, sometimes VERY slow.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
It's really a mess. A substandard product by incompetent interface
designers working for an arrogant company, that doesn't put the user
first place.
They did the same thing with Google Maps: it was OK, but it was
replaced for no reason. By something much worse.
IBM, Microsoft, Google, Apple: the history of arrogance repeating.

So use systems made in your own country.

Non sequitur. Unix and C *) are the works of geniuses, and they too
are 100% American. I am against "big is beautiful & more is better",
not against Americans.

*) I was very fond of the HP41C and the HP3000 too. And some DEC
products. And ASCII!

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 1 Nov 2018 09:29:47 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 1 Nov 2018 04:41:46 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Show people what they quote, not hide, so they are stimulated to quote
only what is necessary to understand what they are reacting to.

When you click "Reply," the entire history is shown.

Not in a genuine Usenet program.

We are not talking about "genuine Usenet programs," whatever those are.
We are talking about Google Groups.

GG is not a Usenet interface, but an interface to Google's database of
Usenet messages. Not the same thing.

We are not talking about "the same thing." We are talking about Google Groups.

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
(Remember that Usenet is older than
the Internet, and MUCH older than the WorldWide Web.) However, I can
see earlier messages in the thread in a tree structure. But having to
click is cumbersome and tiring. Quotes are for a quick reminder,
immediately visible. Clutter impedes that.

Exactly. "Having to click is cumbersome and tiring."

That why I for one don't post clutter. Other do, especially GG users
you don't see what they post.

Of course I do. Why do you think I don't?

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/plyafter.htm

Could it be, then, that it's you who is out of touch?

No, that is impossible. Not with all the experience I have with
discussions, in Usenet, e-mail, twitter, Facebook, and several other
fora.

Yet you still can't type the most basic diacritics, phonetic symbols, or
non-roman scripts.

I can and routinely do. On the web. I even abandoned Kirshenbaum and
Sampa and use genuine IPA in newer articles.
BTW, are аимтщбйнуъэвкфоыдлпцьягхз (and the same in uppercase) part of
"basic diacritics" in your book?

I don't know what you typed, but I see a string of Cyrillic letters. Maybe
you tried typing diacritics, but you ended up typing a non-roman script.

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Because it causes ugly and unreadible messages, which start with 75
quotes that nobody needs.

That is determined entirely by the user, and have you never participated
in a discussion where who said what when is important?

Beg your pardon?? Did you actually read my almost 20 year old article
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/plyafter.htm that I mentioned before? It is
about exactly that!!!

No. I have never visited your web site.

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
And because GG had a reasonably good interface, but suddenly replaced
it by something unworkable for no reason. E.g. searching by message-ID
(a guaranteed unique key) is no longer possible. You cannot clearly
restrict searches to certain newsgroups. Things that are clearly
there, sometimes just aren't found. If you find a message, you have to
wait minutes for 40 other messages to load, that you didn't ask for,
and even then you often don't get to see the one you were looking for.

If you have to wait "minutes," the problem is definitely in your computer.

Or is my slow internet. But my own site responds in milliseconds. And
yes, GG itself is also slow, sometimes VERY slow.

Not noticeable by a human user.

I'm reminded that Ken Jennings lost at *Jeopardy!* to the Watson computer
because its reaction time was calibrated slightly faster than a human's
reaction time. In effect, it cheated.

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
It's really a mess. A substandard product by incompetent interface
designers working for an arrogant company, that doesn't put the user
first place.
They did the same thing with Google Maps: it was OK, but it was
replaced for no reason. By something much worse.
IBM, Microsoft, Google, Apple: the history of arrogance repeating.

So use systems made in your own country.

Non sequitur. Unix and C *) are the works of geniuses, and they too
are 100% American. I am against "big is beautiful & more is better",
not against Americans.
*) I was very fond of the HP41C and the HP3000 too. And some DEC
products. And ASCII!

ASCII was a horrorshow.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 20:13:10 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

BTW, are ????????????????????????? (and the same in uppercase) part of
"basic diacritics" in your book?

I don't know what you typed, but I see a string of Cyrillic letters. Maybe
you tried typing diacritics, but you ended up typing a non-roman script.

Then your Usenet client is seriously broken, because I posted

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

[Ruud Harmsen]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Then your Usenet client is seriously broken, because I posted

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Yes, this is provably a bug in Google Groups. Because it itself shows
that I posted:
==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
[...]
BTW, are àèìòùáéíóúýâêôîûäëïöüÿãõç (and the same in uppercase) part of
"basic diacritics" in your book?
==

(That is, a grave, e grave, [...]. o tilde, c cedille.)
But in your quoted message, this has turned into Cyrillic, which is
not what I sent, in the encoding as correctly indicated.

The error is in Google, not in my old software.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 06:46:55 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 30 Oct 2018 21:39:04 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
What an utterly nonsensical remark. If I copy paste the link, it
AUTOMATICALLY and beyond my control appears like this. This is a
measure to make it portable, I guess. It is outragious to present this
as a reproach to me.

It’s not portable. No one is fluent in percent-encoding, %20 being about
the only thing that people can tolerate.

It IS portable if you use it as intended: by clicking on it. Percent
coding has never been intended for human consumption.

If your browser does show the proper characters, it probably means it’s
doing the translation itself. The url is as you wrote it, it’s not a
special effect of pasting.

How do you know? Did you get into it technically? Did you ever
copy-paste URLs yourself and did you get different results?
I'll test it. I start with
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi, then click through to
Turkish, copy the URL in various browsers and paste into various text
programs (all in Windows 10)..
Firefox => Word 2013: percent encoding
Firefox => Notepad: percent encoding
Firefox => Firefox: percent encoding
Chrome => Word 2013. Notepad, Chrome, Firefox: percent encoding.
Edge => same: readible Turkish!

The url is as you wrote it, it’s not a special effect of pasting.

That's right. It's a special effect of copying, in Firefox and Chrome,
but not Edge.

Obviously, your problem is in your computer.

Percent encodings are not a problem, but a solution. Not invented by
me, but an officially standardised solution:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.1

Post by Peter T. Daniels
You need to fix it if you intend to continue to try to communicate here.

There is no problem whatsoever with English, or any of the
Icelandic-Albanian/Finnish-Portuguese axis languages.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
I have no such problems using Google Groups in Edge.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 31 Oct 2018 06:46:55 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
That's right. It's a special effect of copying, in Firefox and Chrome,
but not Edge.

Obviously, your problem is in your computer.

Percent encodings are not a problem, but a solution. Not invented by
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.1

As DK has pointed out, interfaces are supposed to make it easier for users.

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels
You need to fix it if you intend to continue to try to communicate here.

There is no problem whatsoever with English, or any of the
Icelandic-Albanian/Finnish-Portuguese axis languages.

Oh, goody, you can write Indo-European languages (plus one neighbor)
written with a roman alphabet. Most people studying Finnish, however,
would probably also like to be able to type Hungarian.

Note that "axis languages" are presumably German, Italian, and Japanese.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 07:36:52 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Percent encodings are not a problem, but a solution. Not invented by
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.1

As DK has pointed out, interfaces are supposed to make it easier for users.

This is not about interfaces.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 07:36:52 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
There is no problem whatsoever with English, or any of the
Icelandic-Albanian/Finnish-Portuguese axis languages.

Oh, goody, you can write Indo-European languages (plus one neighbor)
written with a roman alphabet. Most people studying Finnish, however,
would probably also like to be able to type Hungarian.

1) Hungarian is also covered if the long ö and ü are written as ô and
û. 100% unambiguous.

2) "Most people studying Finnish" can do whatever they prefer,
independently of MY choices.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 31 Oct 2018 07:36:52 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
There is no problem whatsoever with English, or any of the
Icelandic-Albanian/Finnish-Portuguese axis languages.

Oh, goody, you can write Indo-European languages (plus one neighbor)
written with a roman alphabet. Most people studying Finnish, however,
would probably also like to be able to type Hungarian.

1) Hungarian is also covered if the long ö and ü are written as ō and
ū. 100% unambiguous.

Not, however, Hungarian.

Post by Ruud Harmsen
2) "Most people studying Finnish" can do whatever they prefer,
independently of MY choices.

Then don't recommend YOUR choices to other people. Just consider how they
discommode them.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 10:48:53 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 31 Oct 2018 07:36:52 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
There is no problem whatsoever with English, or any of the
Icelandic-Albanian/Finnish-Portuguese axis languages.

Oh, goody, you can write Indo-European languages (plus one neighbor)
written with a roman alphabet. Most people studying Finnish, however,
would probably also like to be able to type Hungarian.

1) Hungarian is also covered if the long ö and ü are written as ? and
?. 100% unambiguous.

Not, however, Hungarian.

You don't seem to read what I write, or it was already corrupted into
question marks (although good Latin-1) before you laid eyes on it.

What I meant was that the only characters needed for Hungarian, that
fall outside the scope of Latin 1 / ISO-8859-1 / Windows 1251
(differences exist, but they are irrelevant here), are the letters o
and u with a "long umlaut" or "double acute". Those are the normal
umlauted ö and ü, but with two acute accents instead of two dots, to
indicate length.

Now if the long ö is replaced by o-circumflex (ô) and long ü by
u-circonflex (û), Hungarian can be written 100% unabiguously, although
untraditionally, within Latin-1.

Some use o-tilde instead (õ, otherwise only used for Portuguese),
which is visually more attractive because it looks betrayingly like
the real thing, but it is inconsistent because u-tilde only occurs
(rarely) in old Portuguese texts, and therefore requires full Unicode.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
2) "Most people studying Finnish" can do whatever they prefer,
independently of MY choices.

Then don't recommend YOUR choices to other people. Just consider how they
discommode them.

I am only explaining what I do, and how that makes sense for me, and
perhaps (in complete freedom) for a lot of other people.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 07:36:52 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels
You need to fix it if you intend to continue to try to communicate here.

There is no problem whatsoever with English, or any of the
Icelandic-Albanian/Finnish-Portuguese axis languages.

Oh, goody, you can write Indo-European languages (plus one neighbor)
written with a roman alphabet. Most people studying Finnish, however,
would probably also like to be able to type Hungarian.
Note that "axis languages" are presumably German, Italian, and Japanese.

That's one axis. This one has two. It's an X.

[Alan Smaill]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 31 Oct 2018 07:36:52 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels
You need to fix it if you intend to continue to try to communicate here.

There is no problem whatsoever with English, or any of the
Icelandic-Albanian/Finnish-Portuguese axis languages.

Oh, goody, you can write Indo-European languages (plus one neighbor)
written with a roman alphabet. Most people studying Finnish, however,
would probably also like to be able to type Hungarian.
Note that "axis languages" are presumably German, Italian, and Japanese.

That's one axis. This one has two. It's an X.

Axes, then ?

[Ruud Harmsen]

Post by Alan Smaill

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 31 Oct 2018 07:36:52 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Note that "axis languages" are presumably German, Italian, and Japanese.

That's one axis. This one has two. It's an X.

Axes, then ?

http://rudhar.com/lingtics/eixoveio/en.htm
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/eixoveio/de.htm

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Most people studying Finnish, however,
would probably also like to be able to type Hungarian.

Uhm, would you bother to elaborate why you believe so?

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Most people studying Finnish, however,
would probably also like to be able to type Hungarian.

Uhm, would you bother to elaborate why you believe so?

Because the inclusion of cognate languages is relevant to
language study? (I am not talking about polyglotty, but
linguistics.)

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 04:39:19 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Most people studying Finnish, however,
would probably also like to be able to type Hungarian.

Uhm, would you bother to elaborate why you believe so?

Because the inclusion of cognate languages is relevant to
language study? (I am not talking about polyglotty, but
linguistics.)

I do neither. (Although I tried to learn a little Hungarian, to no
avail.)

Already in October 2001 could I type Hungarian, using editors that
support only ASCII (or also Latin-1, but that isn't strictly
necessary). http://rudhar.com/musica/csokolom/csokolom.htm,
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/html_en/entities.htm .

The restriction for me is only in e-mail (Eudora 6, earlier 2 and 1.4)
and usenet (Agent 0.9). On the web, the full range of Unicode (all
versions) is within my reach.

[António Marques]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The restriction for me is only in e-mail (Eudora 6, earlier 2 and 1.4)
and usenet (Agent 0.9).

Reading this feels exactly like if you went to visit your appparently
normal next door neighbour and found out they use gas for lighting. I mean,
either you use candles or electricity, for heaven’s sake.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The restriction for me is only in e-mail (Eudora 6, earlier 2 and 1.4)
and usenet (Agent 0.9).

Reading this feels exactly like if you went to visit your appparently
normal next door neighbour and found out they use gas for lighting. I mean,
either you use candles or electricity, for heaven’s sake.

I once visited a town house in Chicago where the gas lighting system had
never been disconnected. He lit the chandelier -- it was a very odd
environment. (And quite warm.)

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 09:32:45 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The restriction for me is only in e-mail (Eudora 6, earlier 2 and 1.4)
and usenet (Agent 0.9).

Reading this feels exactly like if you went to visit your appparently
normal next door neighbour and found out they use gas for lighting. I mean,
either you use candles or electricity, for heaven’s sake.

I once visited a town house in Chicago where the gas lighting system had
never been disconnected. He lit the chandelier -- it was a very odd
environment. (And quite warm.)

Is that "gas" as in "another tank of gas, and back on the road again",
or in the sense of "gas, not liquid"?

Lantarenopstekers gaan stil door de nacht.

1:25

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 1 Nov 2018 09:32:45 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The restriction for me is only in e-mail (Eudora 6, earlier 2 and 1.4)
and usenet (Agent 0.9).

Reading this feels exactly like if you went to visit your appparently
normal next door neighbour and found out they use gas for lighting. I mean,
either you use candles or electricity, for heaven’s sake.

I once visited a town house in Chicago where the gas lighting system had
never been disconnected. He lit the chandelier -- it was a very odd
environment. (And quite warm.)

Is that "gas" as in "another tank of gas, and back on the road again",
or in the sense of "gas, not liquid"?

That is a very stupid question.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 20:14:18 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 1 Nov 2018 09:32:45 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The restriction for me is only in e-mail (Eudora 6, earlier 2 and 1.4)
and usenet (Agent 0.9).

Reading this feels exactly like if you went to visit your appparently
normal next door neighbour and found out they use gas for lighting. I mean,
either you use candles or electricity, for heaven’s sake.

I once visited a town house in Chicago where the gas lighting system had
never been disconnected. He lit the chandelier -- it was a very odd
environment. (And quite warm.)

Is that "gas" as in "another tank of gas, and back on the road again",
or in the sense of "gas, not liquid"?

That is a very stupid question.

Is it? The point is I sometimes have to deal with non-native English
with weird terminology choices and little context.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:19:51 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The restriction for me is only in e-mail (Eudora 6, earlier 2 and 1.4)
and usenet (Agent 0.9).

Reading this feels exactly like if you went to visit your appparently
normal next door neighbour and found out they use gas for lighting. I mean,
either you use candles or electricity, for heaven’s sake.

If I skip to another e-mail program, that is a break in a 20 year plus
e-mail archive, which documents my life among other things. Despite
the GDPR I refuse that and explained why.

[António Marques]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:19:51 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The restriction for me is only in e-mail (Eudora 6, earlier 2 and 1.4)
and usenet (Agent 0.9).

Reading this feels exactly like if you went to visit your appparently
normal next door neighbour and found out they use gas for lighting. I mean,
either you use candles or electricity, for heaven’s sake.

If I skip to another e-mail program, that is a break in a 20 year plus
e-mail archive, which documents my life among other things. Despite
the GDPR I refuse that and explained why.

Your archive isn’t in mbox or maildir format? It should be trivial to
import. And you don’t have to delete the original after importing.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 21:00:31 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:19:51 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The restriction for me is only in e-mail (Eudora 6, earlier 2 and 1.4)
and usenet (Agent 0.9).

Reading this feels exactly like if you went to visit your appparently
normal next door neighbour and found out they use gas for lighting. I mean,
either you use candles or electricity, for heaven?s sake.

If I skip to another e-mail program, that is a break in a 20 year plus
e-mail archive, which documents my life among other things. Despite
the GDPR I refuse that and explained why.

Your archive isn’t in mbox or maildir format?

Yes, Eudora is the only Window e-mail program to use that. One of the
reasons I still abide by it.

It should be trivial to import.

After which it uses on hundred times the disk space? It fits in 4 giga
bytes now.

And you don’t have to delete the original after importing.

Eudora is a reasonably good program, although some improvements are
desirable.

[António Marques]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 1 Nov 2018 21:00:31 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:19:51 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The restriction for me is only in e-mail (Eudora 6, earlier 2 and 1.4)
and usenet (Agent 0.9).

Reading this feels exactly like if you went to visit your appparently
normal next door neighbour and found out they use gas for lighting. I mean,
either you use candles or electricity, for heaven?s sake.

If I skip to another e-mail program, that is a break in a 20 year plus
e-mail archive, which documents my life among other things. Despite
the GDPR I refuse that and explained why.

Your archive isn’t in mbox or maildir format?

Yes, Eudora is the only Window e-mail program to use that. One of the
reasons I still abide by it.

TB uses mbox.
What’s more, it’s easy to point it to a folder containing an archive in
mbox format, create a separate account using maildir, and tell it to copy
the first account’s contents to the second’s, nearly converting your
monolithic mbox archive into a maildir one.

Post by Ruud Harmsen

It should be trivial to import.

After which it uses on hundred times the disk space? It fits in 4 giga
bytes now.

? If you convert it to maildir, you’ll waste a bit of space due to minimum
cluster size, but these days that’s insignificant.

But maybe you’re using a FAT filesystem or something. I wouldn’t even dare
to look funny at such a setup lest it would explode into poisonous spores.

Post by Ruud Harmsen

And you don’t have to delete the original after importing.

Eudora is a reasonably good program, although some improvements are
desirable.

I never got on with the name and the UI was ugly, which is inexcusable in
Windows software.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 22:46:01 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

? If you convert it to maildir, you’ll waste a bit of space due to minimum
cluster size, but these days that’s insignificant.
But maybe you’re using a FAT filesystem or something.

I do, in a Bestcrypt drive. I found that FAT is still much more
reliable than the more modern Microsoft file systems, strange though
it may seem. When I used that, I had to repair it several times a day.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:19:51 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The restriction for me is only in e-mail (Eudora 6, earlier 2 and 1.4)
and usenet (Agent 0.9).

Reading this feels exactly like if you went to visit your appparently
normal next door neighbour and found out they use gas for lighting. I mean,
either you use candles or electricity, for heaven’s sake.

We even have solar panels and we are net electricity producers, not
consumers. And we use natural gas for heating and for upgrading solar
powered shower water. Is that too inconsistent too?

[António Marques]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:19:51 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The restriction for me is only in e-mail (Eudora 6, earlier 2 and 1.4)
and usenet (Agent 0.9).

Reading this feels exactly like if you went to visit your appparently
normal next door neighbour and found out they use gas for lighting. I mean,
either you use candles or electricity, for heaven’s sake.

We even have solar panels and we are net electricity producers, not
consumers. And we use natural gas for heating and for upgrading solar
powered shower water. Is that too inconsistent too?

Inconsistent with using software that looked old 20 years ago? Yes, a lot.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 1 Nov 2018 04:39:19 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Most people studying Finnish, however,
would probably also like to be able to type Hungarian.

Uhm, would you bother to elaborate why you believe so?

Because the inclusion of cognate languages is relevant to
language study? (I am not talking about polyglotty, but
linguistics.)

I do neither. (Although I tried to learn a little Hungarian, to no
avail.)
Already in October 2001 could I type Hungarian, using editors that
support only ASCII (or also Latin-1, but that isn't strictly

No, you couldn't. The diacritics for Eastern Europe aren't even in what
is called "Extended ASCII." They're in "Latin 1 Supplement."

Post by Ruud Harmsen
necessary). http://rudhar.com/musica/csokolom/csokolom.htm,
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/html_en/entities.htm .
The restriction for me is only in e-mail (Eudora 6, earlier 2 and 1.4)
and usenet (Agent 0.9). On the web, the full range of Unicode (all
versions) is within my reach.

Since you are typing in a linguistics newsgroup, it behooves you to be able
to type diacritics, phonetic symbols, and other scripts. I.e., Unicode.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 09:25:52 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The restriction for me is only in e-mail (Eudora 6, earlier 2 and 1.4)
and usenet (Agent 0.9). On the web, the full range of Unicode (all
versions) is within my reach.

Since you are typing in a linguistics newsgroup, it behooves you to be able
to type diacritics, phonetic symbols, and other scripts. I.e., Unicode.

I can and sometimes do, using Google Groups where necessary. And Just
This Once I decided to do it differently, and link to a Wikipedia page
which is in full Unicode, and look what a fuss people make about it.
As if they have nothing more important to do.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 09:25:52 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Already in October 2001 could I type Hungarian, using editors that
support only ASCII (or also Latin-1, but that isn't strictly

No, you couldn't. The diacritics for Eastern Europe aren't even in what
is called "Extended ASCII." They're in "Latin 1 Supplement."

As if I didn't know, then and now. Perhaps if you first READ what I
write, can the discussion become somewhat sensible and useful?

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ruud Harmsen
necessary). http://rudhar.com/musica/csokolom/csokolom.htm,
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/html_en/entities.htm .

http://rudhar.com/sfreview/exotentt.htm

Esperanto too is not covered by Latin 1, yet several pages on my site
are in that language, including a recent and future one:
http://rudhar.com/religion/Homaranismo/homaeoia.htm .

And medieaval ligatures: http://rudhar.com/lingtics/tuktalvr/
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/tuktalvr/nl02a.htm etc.

And there is Hebrew and Arabic on several pages:
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/unigglen.htm
http://rudhar.com/musica/mqwm/mqwm-en.htm
http://rudhar.com/index/arabicen.htm and Greek that isn't Greek
http://rudhar.com/musica/frmusif.htm, etc. etc. All using ASCII.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Most people studying Finnish, however,
would probably also like to be able to type Hungarian.

Uhm, would you bother to elaborate why you believe so?

Because the inclusion of cognate languages is relevant to
language study? (I am not talking about polyglotty, but
linguistics.)

I'd say most people studying Finnish do it for practical reasons, or what you call "polyglotty". Immigrants, native speakers of Swedish living in Finland, and EU students learning Finnish for a future translator or interpreter career. For most people speaking, using, and studying Finnish, Hungarian is rather irrelevant, and the Finno-Ugric linguists I know personally have had some elementary course in Hungarian but don't really take an active interest in it, as they are more keen on endangered Finnic languages spoken in Russia, such as Udmurt, Komi, or even Karelian. Hungarian they find dull and commonplace, because it is spoken by everybody in Hungary and even by lots of people in neighboring countries, and isn't going to disappear.

[António Marques]

Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Most people studying Finnish, however,
would probably also like to be able to type Hungarian.

Uhm, would you bother to elaborate why you believe so?

Because the inclusion of cognate languages is relevant to
language study? (I am not talking about polyglotty, but
linguistics.)

I'd say most people studying Finnish do it for practical reasons, or what
you call "polyglotty". Immigrants, native speakers of Swedish living in
Finland, and EU students learning Finnish for a future translator or
interpreter career. For most people speaking, using, and studying
Finnish, Hungarian is rather irrelevant, and the Finno-Ugric linguists I
know personally have had some elementary course in Hungarian but don't
really take an active interest in it, as they are more keen on endangered
Finnic languages spoken in Russia, such as Udmurt, Komi, or even Karelian.

How close together are the Finnic languages? How long does it take the
average Finn to be able to be reasonably fluent in most of them?

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

Post by António Marques

Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Most people studying Finnish, however,
would probably also like to be able to type Hungarian.

Uhm, would you bother to elaborate why you believe so?

Because the inclusion of cognate languages is relevant to
language study? (I am not talking about polyglotty, but
linguistics.)

I'd say most people studying Finnish do it for practical reasons, or what
you call "polyglotty". Immigrants, native speakers of Swedish living in
Finland, and EU students learning Finnish for a future translator or
interpreter career. For most people speaking, using, and studying
Finnish, Hungarian is rather irrelevant, and the Finno-Ugric linguists I
know personally have had some elementary course in Hungarian but don't
really take an active interest in it, as they are more keen on endangered
Finnic languages spoken in Russia, such as Udmurt, Komi, or even Karelian.

How close together are the Finnic languages? How long does it take the
average Finn to be able to be reasonably fluent in most of them?

As regards Estonian and the other Balto-Finnic languages, they have quite transparent grammatical structure and the biggest problem is the vocabulary. The only non-Balto-Finnic Finnic language I have made any attempt to learn is Komi, and while it is quite obvious that it is related, I'd say it'd take at least one year, probably more, of regular study to acquire any kind of fluency in it.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Most people studying Finnish, however,
would probably also like to be able to type Hungarian.

Uhm, would you bother to elaborate why you believe so?

Because the inclusion of cognate languages is relevant to
language study? (I am not talking about polyglotty, but
linguistics.)

I'd say most people studying Finnish do it for practical reasons, or what you call "polyglotty". Immigrants, native speakers of Swedish living in Finland, and EU students learning Finnish for a future translator or interpreter career. For most people speaking, using, and studying Finnish, Hungarian is rather irrelevant, and the Finno-Ugric linguists I know personally have had some elementary course in Hungarian but don't really take an active interest in it, as they are more keen on endangered Finnic languages spoken in Russia, such as Udmurt, Komi, or even Karelian. Hungarian they find dull and commonplace, because it is spoken by everybody in Hungary and even by lots of people in neighboring countries, and isn't going to disappear.

I'm not sure Udmurt or Komi are going to disappear,
one of the languages with the sharpest decline in speakers is Mordvin.
They are clearly on the way of being completely Russianified within the next few decades. If the current trend goes on, Mordvin will be a dead language before the year 2100.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

Post by Arnaud Fournet

Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Most people studying Finnish, however,
would probably also like to be able to type Hungarian.

Uhm, would you bother to elaborate why you believe so?

Because the inclusion of cognate languages is relevant to
language study? (I am not talking about polyglotty, but
linguistics.)

I'd say most people studying Finnish do it for practical reasons, or what you call "polyglotty". Immigrants, native speakers of Swedish living in Finland, and EU students learning Finnish for a future translator or interpreter career. For most people speaking, using, and studying Finnish, Hungarian is rather irrelevant, and the Finno-Ugric linguists I know personally have had some elementary course in Hungarian but don't really take an active interest in it, as they are more keen on endangered Finnic languages spoken in Russia, such as Udmurt, Komi, or even Karelian. Hungarian they find dull and commonplace, because it is spoken by everybody in Hungary and even by lots of people in neighboring countries, and isn't going to disappear.

I'm not sure Udmurt or Komi are going to disappear,
one of the languages with the sharpest decline in speakers is Mordvin.
They are clearly on the way of being completely Russianified within the next few decades. If the current trend goes on, Mordvin will be a dead language before the year 2100.

I am afraid you are being over-optimistic. The last word on every single Finnic language in Russia is that they are at least "definitely endangered" (not spoken by children).

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 1 Nov 2018 16:38:16 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski

Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Hungarian they find dull and commonplace, because it is spoken by everybody in Hungary and even by lots of people in neighboring countries, and isn't going to disappear.

So English and Spanish are dull and boring too, for that reason.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 21:39:04 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
1) I didn't, it was only mentioned here that the SUFFIX might be
Turkish.

That was previously. %89%75%73%75%66 filled us in on it later on.

I must have missed that. Perhaps because it was unreadilble.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 21:39:04 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
If you're too lazy to click a link, that's your problem, and the
ignorance in which that results is not my fault.

It’s not proper etiquette to send a message consisting of just 3 words and
a link which takes you to only a couple of paragraphs.
Even were it a large page, it would be in order to quote or paraphrase a
little bit.

I wrote this:
"The Turkish way to write Khasoggi is <clickable encoded URL> !"

Quite clear, informative and within proper etiquette. And everybody's
free not to click it and miss the info. Heile Welt!

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 21:39:04 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

I don’t get why you got so worked up about this. Nobody’s calling for a
fine for having started the the thread this way. Only pointing out issues
with it.

Because it is very frustrating to post something like this, because I
think some (maybe 1 or 2 or 5) people might also find this
interesting, and then getting only this kind of responses. I then
think "what am I still doing here? Isn't complete retraction from the
online world the better option?"

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 21:39:04 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
I can't, in the software I use, because then this is the result: Cemal
Kasikçi. I knew that beforehand, because I know which languages can be
written in ISO8859-1 and which cannot.

The guy who runs his own domain is locked inside Latin-1. Oh god.

I was already unlocked on 13 October 2001, that's over 17 years ago:
"Unicode search in Google" http://rudhar.com/sfreview/unigglen.htm,
at which time I also already knew how do to full Unicode:
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/ungglutf.htm

Undated, so old: http://rudhar.com/sfreview/html_en/entities.htm,
actually it was from the second half of 2002
http://rudhar.com/index/whatsold/wotsnu02.htm#SimpleHtml .

December 2014, some further details:
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/exotentt.htm

[Ruud Harmsen]

Post by wugi

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The Turkish way to write Khasoggi is
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 !

Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 Turkish??? :-o

It's the ASCII surviving encoding of the Wikipedia URL, which lets you
see the real thing. I can only post in Latin-1 in this program, and s
cedilla and the dotless i are not covered by that.

For those who read Usenet offline: it's Cemal Kasikci, with cedillas
under the last c and the s, and with the dots on both i's removed. It
makes sense: the letter C in Turkish is used for the sound of
Classical Arabic jiim. Ç is its voiceless counterpart.

[wugi]

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by wugi

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The Turkish way to write Khasoggi is
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 !

Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 Turkish??? :-o

It's the ASCII surviving encoding of the Wikipedia URL, which lets you
see the real thing. I can only post in Latin-1 in this program, and s
cedilla and the dotless i are not covered by that.
For those who read Usenet offline: it's Cemal Kasikci, with cedillas
under the last c and the s, and with the dots on both i's removed. It
makes sense: the letter C in Turkish is used for the sound of
Classical Arabic jiim. Ç is its voiceless counterpart.

I wondered why the voiceless. I heard it voiced, at least by Saudis
(Khashogdzhi).

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by wugi

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by wugi

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The Turkish way to write Khasoggi is
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 !

Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 Turkish??? :-o

It's the ASCII surviving encoding of the Wikipedia URL, which lets you
see the real thing. I can only post in Latin-1 in this program, and s
cedilla and the dotless i are not covered by that.
For those who read Usenet offline: it's Cemal Kasikci, with cedillas
under the last c and the s, and with the dots on both i's removed. It
makes sense: the letter C in Turkish is used for the sound of
Classical Arabic jiim. Ç is its voiceless counterpart.

I wondered why the voiceless. I heard it voiced, at least by Saudis
(Khashogdzhi).

Because qaf is voiced in the Spoken Arabic of the Hijaz.

Post by wugi
--
guido wugi

[Ruud Harmsen]

Post by wugi

Post by Ruud Harmsen
For those who read Usenet offline: it's Cemal Kasikci, with cedillas
under the last c and the s, and with the dots on both i's removed. It
makes sense: the letter C in Turkish is used for the sound of
Classical Arabic jiim. Ç is its voiceless counterpart.

I wondered why the voiceless. I heard it voiced, at least by Saudis
(Khashogdzhi).

Assimilation? Turkish devoices a lot, Mahmud => Mehmet, Khadija =>
Hatice.

[António Marques]

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by wugi

Post by Ruud Harmsen
For those who read Usenet offline: it's Cemal Kasikci, with cedillas
under the last c and the s, and with the dots on both i's removed. It
makes sense: the letter C in Turkish is used for the sound of
Classical Arabic jiim. Ç is its voiceless counterpart.

I wondered why the voiceless. I heard it voiced, at least by Saudis
(Khashogdzhi).

Assimilation? Turkish devoices a lot, Mahmud => Mehmet,

Is Mehmet Mahmud or Muhammad? I thought the former, but just yesterday saw
a Turk say it was the latter. If one, what’s the other?

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 20:54:02 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Assimilation? Turkish devoices a lot, Mahmud => Mehmet,

Is Mehmet Mahmud or Muhammad?

I don't know and won't investigate, because before I know it I might
have posted something that annoys people again.

Post by António Marques
I thought the former, but just yesterday saw
a Turk say it was the latter. If one, what’s the other?

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by wugi

Post by Ruud Harmsen
For those who read Usenet offline: it's Cemal Kasikci, with cedillas
under the last c and the s, and with the dots on both i's removed. It
makes sense: the letter C in Turkish is used for the sound of
Classical Arabic jiim. Ē is its voiceless counterpart.

I wondered why the voiceless. I heard it voiced, at least by Saudis
(Khashogdzhi).

No. It is Turkish, voiceless but Hijazi Colloquial uses voiced qaf, as most bedouin based dialects.

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Assimilation? Turkish devoices a lot, Mahmud => Mehmet, Khadija =>
Hatice.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

[Ruud Harmsen]

Post by wugi

Post by Ruud Harmsen
For those who read Usenet offline: it's Cemal Kasikci, with cedillas
under the last c and the s, and with the dots on both i's removed. It
makes sense: the letter C in Turkish is used for the sound of
Classical Arabic jiim. Ç is its voiceless counterpart.

I wondered why the voiceless. I heard it voiced, at least by Saudis
(Khashogdzhi).

The q is voiceless. But some dialects of Arabic voice it to g.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The Turkish way to write Khasoggi is
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 !

Yes, that's been mentioned on his English Wikipedia page for two
weeks now.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 17:18:00 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The Turkish way to write Khasoggi is
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 !

Yes, that's been mentioned on his English Wikipedia page for two
weeks now.

I never noticed that.

PLEASE IGNORE THIS THREAD.
IF IT ANNOYS you, it is NOT for you.

[Daud Deden]

Cernal-> PLEASE IGNORE THIS THREAD.
IF IT ANNOYS you, it is NOT for you.

Imagonna put at Paleo!

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The Turkish way to write Khasoggi is
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemal_Ka%C5%9F%C4%B1k%C3%A7%C4%B1 !
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Kaşıkçı (Older and dialect Kaşukçı) is the original Turkish of the surname. His family came from Kayseri in Central Anatolia during the Ottoman Empire.

Cemal is the way the Arabic name (meaning "beauty") is written in Turkish, and it is used as a common noun as well, though pedantic and archaic.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 12:30:39 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey

Ka??kç? (Older and dialect Ka?ukç?) is the original Turkish of the surname.

What??

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 30 Oct 2018 12:30:39 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey

Ka??kç? (Older and dialect Ka?ukç?) is the original Turkish of the surname.

What??
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Qashyqchy < Qashuqchy

y high back narrow vowel.

[António Marques]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 30 Oct 2018 12:30:39 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey

Ka??kç? (Older and dialect Ka?ukç?) is the original Turkish of the surname.

What??
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Qashyqchy < Qashuqchy
y high back narrow vowel.

Be prepared to explain every single non-iso-latin-1 character you write
from now on.

kaSIkCI as you did in the olden days would have done fine.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 21:30:09 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Qashyqchy < Qashuqchy
y high back narrow vowel.

Be prepared to explain every single non-iso-latin-1 character you write
from now on.
kaSIkCI as you did in the olden days would have done fine.

This was a joke you didn't get.

Normally when I see such question marks, I know they're due to my old
Agent, and if I really want to know what it says, I look up the
message in Google Groups. I sometimes even reply there so I can
properly quote the non-Latin-1. Did you never notice?

[António Marques]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 30 Oct 2018 21:30:09 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Qashyqchy < Qashuqchy
y high back narrow vowel.

Be prepared to explain every single non-iso-latin-1 character you write
from now on.
kaSIkCI as you did in the olden days would have done fine.

This was a joke you didn't get.
Normally when I see such question marks, I know they're due to my old
Agent, and if I really want to know what it says, I look up the
message in Google Groups. I sometimes even reply there so I can
properly quote the non-Latin-1. Did you never notice?

No, it’s (shocking) news to me that you’re stranded in Latin-1.

My point, however, is that your question made Yusuf, ever the kind soul
prest da rentiñ servij, expend his energy to repeat the information.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:04:43 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Normally when I see such question marks, I know they're due to my old
Agent, and if I really want to know what it says, I look up the
message in Google Groups. I sometimes even reply there so I can
properly quote the non-Latin-1. Did you never notice?

No, it’s (shocking) news to me that you’re stranded in Latin-1.

News? I find it shocking to find that that's news to you, seeing that
I must have mentioned that about 500 times by now, thinking each time
"I should instead put that on a webpage". And seeing that already 17
years ago, I found and reported how I was NOT "stranded" in Latin-1,
because an easy escape in possible to full and utter Unicode.

Links to Unicode code charts, http://rudhar.com/lingtics/uniclnks.htm.
Dating from 26 January 2002, almost 17 years ago.

My point, however, is that your question made Yusuf, ever the kind soul
prest da rentiñ servij, expend his energy to repeat the information.

It's really terrible, I'm so ashamed to have caused that.

Do you have a link to earlier mention of the exact Turkish orthography
(using all the cedilla and dotlessness) here in the newsgroup?

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:04:43 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by António Marques

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Normally when I see such question marks, I know they're due to my old
Agent, and if I really want to know what it says, I look up the
message in Google Groups. I sometimes even reply there so I can
properly quote the non-Latin-1. Did you never notice?

No, it’s (shocking) news to me that you’re stranded in Latin-1.

News? I find it shocking to find that that's news to you, seeing that
I must have mentioned that about 500 times by now, thinking each time
"I should instead put that on a webpage". And seeing that already 17
years ago, I found and reported how I was NOT "stranded" in Latin-1,
because an easy escape in possible to full and utter Unicode.
Links to Unicode code charts, http://rudhar.com/lingtics/uniclnks.htm.
Dating from 26 January 2002, almost 17 years ago.

Post by António Marques
My point, however, is that your question made Yusuf, ever the kind soul
prest da rentiñ servij, expend his energy to repeat the information.

It's really terrible, I'm so ashamed to have caused that.
Do you have a link to earlier mention of the exact Turkish orthography
(using all the cedilla and dotlessness) here in the newsgroup?

Jj = ʒ voiced fricative as in French j Cc = ʤ (voiced alveolar affricate; English j) Çç (c cedilla) = ʧ (ch) Şş (s cedilla) = ʃ (sh) Ğğ (g breve sign) = ɰ (in careful speech weakly voiced laryngeal fricative: similar to Modern Greek Gamma ɣ, derived from lenition of g or Arabic or Persian ghayin, in less careful speech, in most Western and Balkan dialects it just lengthens the preceding vowel) Iı (always dotless i) = ɯ (high back unrounded vowel) İi (always dotted i) = i ; Öö (o umlaut / diaeresis ; as in German, low front rounded vowel) Üü (u umlaut / diaeresis, as in German, high front rounded vowel), Ee = ɛ low (open) front unrounded vowel, in Standard Turkish the aperature is medium, dialects preserve phonemic open and closed varieties Aa low back unrounded vowel Oo low, back rounded vowel, Uu high back rounded vowel Kk Gg Ll come in front and allophones that are very pronounced, in loanwords this distinction becomes phonemic. Ââ Îî Ûû
a, i (no dot), u hat are available to indicate long vowel versions of a, i, u, or the front allophone of kgl appearing irregularly (this does not apply to Îî i hat) or both, but one cannot use Ââ a hat Ûû u hat with the back allophone of kgl followed by long a or u (usually the front allophone of k or g is followed by an audible iotization ("y" sound) since the front allophone of k or g followed by back vowel is a difficult combination for Turkish speakers. Use is optional, and is not available in recent keyboards. Ôô o hat may represent the front allophone of kgl in some loanwords from European languages. There is also fronted a which receives front suffixes in a few Arabic loanwords, for which a few minimal pairs exist, but there is no orthographic device for this rare marginal phoneme. Rural dialects preserve velar nasal, but this is not present in Standard Turkish but was distinguished Ottoman script. The other letters are intuitive, d/t is dental, h is distinctly articulated, some allophones have a mild friction (Standard Turkish).

[Ruud Harmsen]

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:04:43 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

ever the kind soul prest da rentiñ servij

Wie bitte?

[António Marques]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:04:43 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

ever the kind soul prest da rentiñ servij

Wie bitte?

http://www.brezhoneg.bzh/93-troer-emgefre.htm

Misschien moet je de vocal van de infinitief veranderen.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by António Marques

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 30 Oct 2018 12:30:39 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey

Ka??kç? (Older and dialect Ka?ukç?) is the original Turkish of the surname.

What??
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Qashyqchy < Qashuqchy
y high back narrow vowel.

Be prepared to explain every single non-iso-latin-1 character you write
from now on.
kaSIkCI as you did in the olden days would have done fine.

With decent settings it could be read.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 30 Oct 2018 13:55:37 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 30 Oct 2018 12:30:39 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey

Ka??kç? (Older and dialect Ka?ukç?) is the original Turkish of the surname.

What??
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Qashyqchy < Qashuqchy
y high back narrow vowel.

Russian! :)

KaIIIbIg4bI.