That Anthem.

[R.Peffers.]

The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward as a
Scottish Anthem. One would hope not, for nice bit of music as it is, it
hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands only. Perhaps renamed
appropriately and with lyrics added it would be right. People of a Unionist
bent, both politically and of the sectarian variety, don't like, "Flowers Of
Scotland". I see little wrong with "Scots Wha Hae", except for the way it is
often played like a dirge. Though the same could be said for most other
contenders. This playing of anthems like a dirge is not the fault of the
music but of the musicians who play them. As to the critics of, "Flowers Of
Scotland", who claim the song is rather too nationalistic and bloodthirsty,
I would ask if they had considered the words of the French, "Marseilles",
that is often considered to be the best anthem of all.

[Lesley Robertson]

. As to the critics of, "Flowers Of Scotland", who claim the song is rather
too nationalistic and bloodthirsty, I would ask if they had considered the
words of the French, "Marseilles", that is often considered to be the best
anthem of all.
--

The point that they're all missing, of course, is that FoS has been used at
Murrayfield, etc, for so long that folk are used to it being played as the
anthem. Many people think that it IS the anthem.I was considerably
surprised when it wasn't played at the Commonwealth Games. It doesn't relly
matter what tune they decide to use, no matter how many times they announce
that song X is the official anthem, if the folk don't agree it won't be
used. Public acclamation is the only way to go, and FoS has been in that
slot for years.
As for bloodthirsty lyrics, don't forget thecrushed scots of the UK anthem
and the rockets and bombs of our transatlantic cousins. At least FoS is only
about repelling invaders.
Lesley Robertson

[R.Peffers.]

Post by Lesley Robertson

. As to the critics of, "Flowers Of Scotland", who claim the song is
rather too nationalistic and bloodthirsty, I would ask if they had
considered the words of the French, "Marseilles", that is often considered
to be the best anthem of all.
--

The point that they're all missing, of course, is that FoS has been used
at Murrayfield, etc, for so long that folk are used to it being played as
the anthem. Many people think that it IS the anthem.I was considerably
surprised when it wasn't played at the Commonwealth Games. It doesn't
relly matter what tune they decide to use, no matter how many times they
announce that song X is the official anthem, if the folk don't agree it
won't be used. Public acclamation is the only way to go, and FoS has been
in that slot for years.
As for bloodthirsty lyrics, don't forget thecrushed scots of the UK anthem
and the rockets and bombs of our transatlantic cousins. At least FoS is
only about repelling invaders.
Lesley Robertson

It may surprise many to find out that there is actually no official UK
national Anthem. God Save the Queen is not an official Anthem.

[T N Nurse]

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward as a
Scottish Anthem. One would hope not, for nice bit of music as it is, it
hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands only. Perhaps renamed
appropriately and with lyrics added it would be right. People of a Unionist
bent, both politically and of the sectarian variety, don't like, "Flowers Of
Scotland".

Err no. People with some musical experience see it as a badly
constructed dirge - hardly fitting of an anthem of a nation. It
can't even be played properly on the national instrument because
of that out-of-key flat 7 on the word 'think'.

Post by R.Peffers.
I see little wrong with "Scots Wha Hae", except for the way it is
often played like a dirge.

So much like Flower of Scotland played at normal pace, but minus
the karaoke style add-ons that the crowds add. A better choice though.

Post by R.Peffers.
the same could be said for most other
contenders.

Not really. Who are the 'contenders'? Scotland the Brave? I've
never heard that played anything other than upbeat and quite unlike
the doom-laden, depressing dirge that FoS is. If you _try_ to play
FoS upbeat, it ends up sounding like a music-hall joke song and takes
on a stuttering quality. StB is a good call. SWH is also a good choice
of a nicely crafted, if somewhat bloodthirsty, tune.

Highland Cathedral????? Gies a brek!!!!! It's like the Kenny G of
bagpipe music or something you'd find on a Richard Clayderman album!
Found on every CD in every bargain bin in every woolen mill shop in
Scotland.

Post by R.Peffers.
music but of the musicians who play them. As to the critics of, "Flowers Of
Scotland", who claim the song is rather too nationalistic and bloodthirsty,
I would ask if they had considered the words of the French, "Marseilles",
that is often considered to be the best anthem of all.

Marseilles is a superbly crafted piece of music, something that cannot
be said of FoS! It sounds like something that was knocked up in a bedroom
by an amateur musician. The irony of it all, is that Williamson
recognised that and didn't rate it as a song. He had to be pursuaded
by Ronnie Browne to bring it out as Williamson had composed simply
as a personal statement, rather than a musical composition.

We need something positive, bright and forward looking, not some badly
composed nostalgic dirge.

[Ian Morrison]

Post by T N Nurse

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward as a
Scottish Anthem. One would hope not, for nice bit of music as it is, it
hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands only. Perhaps renamed
appropriately and with lyrics added it would be right. People of a Unionist
bent, both politically and of the sectarian variety, don't like, "Flowers Of
Scotland".

Err no. People with some musical experience see it as a badly
constructed dirge - hardly fitting of an anthem of a nation. It
can't even be played properly on the national instrument because
of that out-of-key flat 7 on the word 'think'.

I quite agree, and I fail to see what might be considered "unionist" or
"sectarian" about not liking the song.

Post by T N Nurse

Post by R.Peffers.
I see little wrong with "Scots Wha Hae", except for the way it is
often played like a dirge.

So much like Flower of Scotland played at normal pace, but minus
the karaoke style add-ons that the crowds add. A better choice though.

I've long been in favour of "Scots Wha Hae". Most people might be able
to remember the first verse at least, which would be a huge advantage
over "FoS".

Post by T N Nurse

Post by R.Peffers.
the same could be said for most other
contenders.

Not really. Who are the 'contenders'? Scotland the Brave? I've
never heard that played anything other than upbeat and quite unlike
the doom-laden, depressing dirge that FoS is. If you _try_ to play
FoS upbeat, it ends up sounding like a music-hall joke song and takes
on a stuttering quality. StB is a good call. SWH is also a good choice
of a nicely crafted, if somewhat bloodthirsty, tune.

I don't think the *tune* of SWH is bloodthirsty! Maybe we could fit some
new, and even more memorable, words to it?

Post by T N Nurse
Highland Cathedral????? Gies a brek!!!!! It's like the Kenny G of
bagpipe music or something you'd find on a Richard Clayderman album!
Found on every CD in every bargain bin in every woolen mill shop in
Scotland.

Post by R.Peffers.
music but of the musicians who play them. As to the critics of, "Flowers Of
Scotland", who claim the song is rather too nationalistic and bloodthirsty,
I would ask if they had considered the words of the French, "Marseilles",
that is often considered to be the best anthem of all.

Marseilles is a superbly crafted piece of music, something that cannot
be said of FoS! It sounds like something that was knocked up in a bedroom
by an amateur musician. The irony of it all, is that Williamson
recognised that and didn't rate it as a song. He had to be pursuaded
by Ronnie Browne to bring it out as Williamson had composed simply
as a personal statement, rather than a musical composition.
We need something positive, bright and forward looking, not some badly
composed nostalgic dirge.

Quite, though there aren't all that many national anthems around which
fit that bill.

[The Highlander]

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:13:06 GMT, Ian Morrison

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by T N Nurse

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward as a
Scottish Anthem. One would hope not, for nice bit of music as it is, it
hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands only. Perhaps renamed
appropriately and with lyrics added it would be right. People of a Unionist
bent, both politically and of the sectarian variety, don't like, "Flowers Of
Scotland".

Err no. People with some musical experience see it as a badly
constructed dirge - hardly fitting of an anthem of a nation. It
can't even be played properly on the national instrument because
of that out-of-key flat 7 on the word 'think'.

I quite agree, and I fail to see what might be considered "unionist" or
"sectarian" about not liking the song.

Post by T N Nurse

Post by R.Peffers.
I see little wrong with "Scots Wha Hae", except for the way it is
often played like a dirge.

So much like Flower of Scotland played at normal pace, but minus
the karaoke style add-ons that the crowds add. A better choice though.

I've long been in favour of "Scots Wha Hae". Most people might be able
to remember the first verse at least, which would be a huge advantage
over "FoS".

Post by T N Nurse

Post by R.Peffers.
the same could be said for most other
contenders.

Not really. Who are the 'contenders'? Scotland the Brave? I've
never heard that played anything other than upbeat and quite unlike
the doom-laden, depressing dirge that FoS is. If you _try_ to play
FoS upbeat, it ends up sounding like a music-hall joke song and takes
on a stuttering quality. StB is a good call. SWH is also a good choice
of a nicely crafted, if somewhat bloodthirsty, tune.

I don't think the *tune* of SWH is bloodthirsty! Maybe we could fit some
new, and even more memorable, words to it?

I think Scots Wha Hae is a marvellous tune when belted out as Burns
intended it to be, and as I heard it at the Usher Hall when half the
audience was reduced to tears of patriotic pride, myself included.

Oh I wish I had a copy of that version so you could hear it. It's a
real Scottish anthem, not some beer-driven dirge like FoS.

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by T N Nurse
Highland Cathedral????? Gies a brek!!!!! It's like the Kenny G of
bagpipe music or something you'd find on a Richard Clayderman album!
Found on every CD in every bargain bin in every woolen mill shop in
Scotland.

Post by R.Peffers.
music but of the musicians who play them. As to the critics of, "Flowers Of
Scotland", who claim the song is rather too nationalistic and bloodthirsty,
I would ask if they had considered the words of the French, "Marseilles",
that is often considered to be the best anthem of all.

Marseilles is a superbly crafted piece of music, something that cannot
be said of FoS! It sounds like something that was knocked up in a bedroom
by an amateur musician. The irony of it all, is that Williamson
recognised that and didn't rate it as a song. He had to be pursuaded
by Ronnie Browne to bring it out as Williamson had composed simply
as a personal statement, rather than a musical composition.
We need something positive, bright and forward looking, not some badly
composed nostalgic dirge.

Quite, though there aren't all that many national anthems around which
fit that bill.
--
Ian O.
http://www.iomorrison.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an pòst seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.
Ag amas air adhartas ann an Gàidhlig.
Aiming for advancement in the Gaelic.

[Mr. Wrong]

Post by T N Nurse

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward as a
Scottish Anthem. One would hope not, for nice bit of music as it is, it
hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands only. Perhaps renamed
appropriately and with lyrics added it would be right. People of a Unionist
bent, both politically and of the sectarian variety, don't like, "Flowers Of
Scotland".

[Flower of Scotlan]

Post by T N Nurse
People with some musical experience see it as a badly
constructed dirge - hardly fitting of an anthem of a nation. It
can't even be played properly on the national instrument because
of that out-of-key flat 7 on the word 'think'.

Argh! One of my (many) pet hates -- the pipe rendering of FoS.

Have you ever had any success convincing anyone that it cannot be played
on the pipes? I once had a piper try to tell me it's OK because they just
play it differently. He wouldn't accept the word "wrong".

Post by T N Nurse
Highland Cathedral????? Gies a brek!!!!! It's like the Kenny G of
bagpipe music or something you'd find on a Richard Clayderman album!
Found on every CD in every bargain bin in every woolen mill shop in
Scotland.

...and it doesn't sound Scottish! (And I thought that long before I
discovered that it was written in Germany.)

Have you seen the lyrics people have been proposing for it?

Donald Smith:
"Land of the mountain, islands and the sea,
Highland and Lowland, that gives life to me,
Mother of justice and humanity,
Be our last refuge, stronghold of the free ... "
Yuech -- it's like a cut-and-shut from a 19th century hymnal! It's an
incoherent string of pithy phrases.

On top of that, the rhythm of the tune doesn't match the words; you'll end
up singing "Land of the mountain-islands" and "Be our last
refuce-stronghold"....

Moira Kerr's are similarly weak:
"Land of the thistle and the rowan tree,
Scotland a nation, proud and free.
Under the Saltire, flying high for me,
Leading us onward to victory. "
Another stream of platitudes and the bit "flying high for me" is a bad
line only purely for the sake of its rhyme.

Terry Kerr:
"There is a land far from this distant shore..."
Well that one's a non-starter....

Ben Kelly:
"Land of our fathers, we will always be
Faithful and loyal to our own country.
In times of danger, we will set you free.
Lead you to glory and to victory. "
Better, but isn't "land of our fathers" a bit of a cliché?

Post by T N Nurse
We need something positive, bright and forward looking, not some badly
composed nostalgic dirge.

Agreed, to a point. I wee bittie nostalgia can be a good thing
(sufficiently diluted).

Mr. Wrong.

[Ian]

Post by T N Nurse
Err no. People with some musical experience see it as a badly
constructed dirge - hardly fitting of an anthem of a nation. It
can't even be played properly on the national instrument because
of that out-of-key flat 7 on the word 'think'.

What national instrument would that be? Nothing using a normal western
scale can be played properly on the highland bagpipes, as they use a
scale with different intervals.

Post by T N Nurse
Highland Cathedral????? Gies a brek!!!!! It's like the Kenny G of
bagpipe music or something you'd find on a Richard Clayderman album!
Found on every CD in every bargain bin in every woolen mill shop in
Scotland.

Agreed. Laughable words and written by a couple of germans...

Post by T N Nurse
We need something positive, bright and forward looking, not some badly
composed nostalgic dirge.

Kind of sums up the SNP, that.

Ian

[Mr. Wrong]

Post by Ian

Post by T N Nurse
Err no. People with some musical experience see it as a badly
constructed dirge - hardly fitting of an anthem of a nation. It
can't even be played properly on the national instrument because
of that out-of-key flat 7 on the word 'think'.

What national instrument would that be? Nothing using a normal western
scale can be played properly on the highland bagpipes, as they use a
scale with different intervals.

You don't seem to appreciate the reason for that difference.

Equal Temperament -- the "modern" western tuning -- is an approximation of
a natural scale suitable for being played in all keys. If your instrument
doesn't play in all keys, there is no need for Equal Temperament. This is
why many instruments like tin whistles and bagpipes are tuned to a the
more natural Just Intonation.

Anything in a single key cannot be played "properly" on a piano, but only
"nearly properly"; whereas it can be played properly on bagpipes.

Mr. Wrong Note

[Ian]

Post by Mr. Wrong

Post by Ian
What national instrument would that be? Nothing using a normal western
scale can be played properly on the highland bagpipes, as they use a
scale with different intervals.

You don't seem to appreciate the reason for that difference.
Equal Temperament -- the "modern" western tuning -- is an approximation of
a natural scale suitable for being played in all keys. If your instrument
doesn't play in all keys, there is no need for Equal Temperament. This is
why many instruments like tin whistles and bagpipes are tuned to a the
more natural Just Intonation.

It is actually very much more complicated than that. Try
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/acoustics/pipescale.html
for a start.

Post by Mr. Wrong
Anything in a single key cannot be played "properly" on a piano, but only
"nearly properly"; whereas it can be played properly on bagpipes.

Simply not true, I'm afraid.

Ian

[Mr. Wrong]

Post by Ian

Post by Mr. Wrong
Equal Temperament -- the "modern" western tuning -- is an approximation of
a natural scale suitable for being played in all keys. If your instrument
doesn't play in all keys, there is no need for Equal Temperament. This is
why many instruments like tin whistles and bagpipes are tuned to a the
more natural Just Intonation.

It is actually very much more complicated than that. Try
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/acoustics/pipescale.html
for a start.

Wow! That's very interesting. Thanks!

(And I thought that that flat top-note was a fault rather than a design
feature....)

Post by Ian

Post by Mr. Wrong
Anything in a single key cannot be played "properly" on a piano, but only
"nearly properly"; whereas it can be played properly on bagpipes.

Simply not true, I'm afraid.

Fair enough -- I stand corrected.

As long as I learn something new,
I am happy to be proven
Mr. Wrong.

[Ian]

Post by Mr. Wrong

Post by Ian

Post by Mr. Wrong
Equal Temperament -- the "modern" western tuning -- is an approximation of
a natural scale suitable for being played in all keys. If your instrument
doesn't play in all keys, there is no need for Equal Temperament. This is
why many instruments like tin whistles and bagpipes are tuned to a the
more natural Just Intonation.

It is actually very much more complicated than that. Try
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/acoustics/pipescale.html
for a start.

Wow! That's very interesting. Thanks!
As long as I learn something new,
I am happy to be proven
Mr. Wrong.

What a gent!

Regards,

Ian

[Madra Dubh]

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward as a
Scottish Anthem. One would hope not, for nice bit of music as it is, it
hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands only.

I suppose "You take the high road and I'll take the low road" would be more
suitable.
But then, that might only apply to the area along side the bonnie, bonnie
banks of Loch Lommound.
Wurrah, wurrah..........

Post by R.Peffers.
Perhaps renamed appropriately and with lyrics added it would be right.
People of a Unionist bent, both politically and of the sectarian variety,
don't like, "Flowers Of Scotland". I see little wrong with "Scots Wha
Hae", except for the way it is often played like a dirge. Though the same
could be said for most other contenders. This playing of anthems like a
dirge is not the fault of the music but of the musicians who play them. As
to the critics of, "Flowers Of Scotland", who claim the song is rather too
nationalistic and bloodthirsty, I would ask if they had considered the
words of the French, "Marseilles", that is often considered to be the best
anthem of all.
--
Robert Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
(When replying take pam away from peffers.
Scotland).

[Cory Bhreckan]

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward as a
Scottish Anthem. One would hope not, for nice bit of music as it is, it
hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands only.

I suppose "You take the high road and I'll take the low road" would be more
suitable.
But then, that might only apply to the area along side the bonnie, bonnie
banks of Loch Lommound.
Wurrah, wurrah..........

You wouldn't think so if you had ever driven up the northwest corner of
Loch Lomond on the A82. Besides, the song itself is about death, not a
great subject for a national anthem.

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by R.Peffers.
Perhaps renamed appropriately and with lyrics added it would be right.
People of a Unionist bent, both politically and of the sectarian variety,
don't like, "Flowers Of Scotland". I see little wrong with "Scots Wha
Hae", except for the way it is often played like a dirge. Though the same
could be said for most other contenders. This playing of anthems like a
dirge is not the fault of the music but of the musicians who play them. As
to the critics of, "Flowers Of Scotland", who claim the song is rather too
nationalistic and bloodthirsty, I would ask if they had considered the
words of the French, "Marseilles", that is often considered to be the best
anthem of all.
--
Robert Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
(When replying take pam away from peffers.
Scotland).

[Ian Morrison]

Post by Cory Bhreckan
You wouldn't think so if you had ever driven up the northwest corner of
Loch Lomond on the A82. Besides, the song itself is about death, not a
great subject for a national anthem.

Speaking of the Loch Lomond area and death, or rather near death, I
remember the worst ever geological field trip when I was a student, to
the Garabal Hill pluton, starting from the (west, obviously) side of the
A82, straight up for about 2000 feet then across a sodden wind-blasted
icy moor to look at some grey rocks, and all the way back again. The
luckiest member of our class on that occasion was the one who only just
made it up the first climb and had to be helped back down to the
roadside again to recover.

The song, as you indicate, is a lament, which is not good for a national
anthem. We might as well just adopt "Flower of Scotland".

"Flow Gently, Sweet Afton" would be preferable, or, even better "Mary
Morrison".

--
Ian O.
http://www.iomorrison.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

[Cory Bhreckan]

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Cory Bhreckan
You wouldn't think so if you had ever driven up the northwest corner of
Loch Lomond on the A82. Besides, the song itself is about death, not a
great subject for a national anthem.

Speaking of the Loch Lomond area and death, or rather near death, I
remember the worst ever geological field trip when I was a student, to
the Garabal Hill pluton, starting from the (west, obviously) side of the
A82, straight up for about 2000 feet then across a sodden wind-blasted
icy moor to look at some grey rocks, and all the way back again. The
luckiest member of our class on that occasion was the one who only just
made it up the first climb and had to be helped back down to the
roadside again to recover.

When we reached the northwest end, the lane narrowed to the same width
as the VW Golf I was driving. The missus kept whining about the jagged
rock cliff whizzing by inches from her side of the car. I pointed out
that the lorries whizzing by within inches of *my* side of the car was
much going *much* faster.

Post by Ian Morrison
The song, as you indicate, is a lament, which is not good for a national
anthem. We might as well just adopt "Flower of Scotland".
"Flow Gently, Sweet Afton" would be preferable, or, even better "Mary
Morrison".

Hmmm, I can see your point. I, however, would prefer William Jackson's
Coryvreckan....

Post by Ian Morrison
--
Ian O.
http://www.iomorrison.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

[Madra Dubh]

When we reached the northwest end, the lane narrowed to the same width as
the VW Golf I was driving. The missus kept whining about the jagged rock
cliff whizzing by inches from her side of the car. I pointed out that the
lorries whizzing by within inches of *my* side of the car was much going
*much* faster.
Hmmm, I can see your point. I, however, would prefer William Jackson's
Coryvreckan....

Who are you responding to?

[Cory Bhreckan]

Post by Madra Dubh

When we reached the northwest end, the lane narrowed to the same width as
the VW Golf I was driving. The missus kept whining about the jagged rock
cliff whizzing by inches from her side of the car. I pointed out that the
lorries whizzing by within inches of *my* side of the car was much going
*much* faster.
Hmmm, I can see your point. I, however, would prefer William Jackson's
Coryvreckan....

Who are you responding to?

Ian O., It's quite easy to deduce this by reading my post. Why did you
snip the other quotes?

[Madra Dubh]

Post by Cory Bhreckan

Post by Madra Dubh

When we reached the northwest end, the lane narrowed to the same width as
the VW Golf I was driving. The missus kept whining about the jagged rock
cliff whizzing by inches from her side of the car. I pointed out that the
lorries whizzing by within inches of *my* side of the car was much going
*much* faster.
Hmmm, I can see your point. I, however, would prefer William Jackson's
Coryvreckan....

Who are you responding to?

Ian O., It's quite easy to deduce this by reading my post. Why did you
snip the other quotes?

Oh, Cory, it's just me poking at Morrison.
Whenever he replies to a post with my name and comments in it, he always
deletes me out.
So......
I returns the favor.

[Craig Cockburn]

No gods and precious few heroes?

http://mysongbook.de/msb/songs/n/nogodsan.html

[Adam Whyte-Settlar]

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Cory Bhreckan
You wouldn't think so if you had ever driven up the northwest corner of
Loch Lomond on the A82. Besides, the song itself is about death, not a
great subject for a national anthem.

Speaking of the Loch Lomond area and death, or rather near death, I
remember the worst ever geological field trip when I was a student, to
the Garabal Hill pluton, starting from the (west, obviously) side of the
A82, straight up for about 2000 feet then across a sodden wind-blasted
icy moor to look at some grey rocks, and all the way back again.

I had several frank exchanges of views with our botany lecturer when I
simply point blank refused to go trudging about the snow covered hills near
Aviemore looking for certain plants under the snow in January.
Sod that for a game of soldiers - it would have been stultifying even on a
good day but in those conditions it was just ludicrous.
I don't think he had ever encountered such an uppity student before ( I was
37 at the time ) and didn't quite know how to handle it. He kept sort of
spluttering; "But, but you've *got* to do it - it's part of the course" and
I'm like; "So expel me".
I went home to my nice warm fire - the others went halfway up a hill in the
sleet and snow - I came top of the class in the written exam.
I might be stupid, but I'm not *that* ******* stupid.

A W-S










The

Post by Ian Morrison
luckiest member of our class on that occasion was the one who only just
made it up the first climb and had to be helped back down to the
roadside again to recover.
The song, as you indicate, is a lament, which is not good for a national
anthem. We might as well just adopt "Flower of Scotland".
"Flow Gently, Sweet Afton" would be preferable, or, even better "Mary
Morrison".
--
Ian O.
http://www.iomorrison.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

[Craig Cockburn]

http://www.siliconglen.com/Scotland/4_2.html

may help

[Craig Cockburn]

Post by Craig Cockburn
http://www.siliconglen.com/Scotland/4_2.html

I put the link in my blog http://siliconglen.blogspot.com/ if anyone is
looking for it later.

[Madra Dubh]

Post by Cory Bhreckan

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward as a
Scottish Anthem. One would hope not, for nice bit of music as it is, it
hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands only.

I suppose "You take the high road and I'll take the low road" would be
more suitable.
But then, that might only apply to the area along side the bonnie, bonnie
banks of Loch Lommound.
Wurrah, wurrah..........

You wouldn't think so if you had ever driven up the northwest corner of
Loch Lomond on the A82. Besides, the song itself is about death, not a
great subject for a national anthem.

Coincidentally, Loch Lomond was the ancestral home of my distant kin, the
Buchanans.
The joke here is in response to "for nice bit of music as it is, it hardly
represents all Scotland being Highlands only".
Thus "High Road" and "Low Road"
(It is such a joy to me, explaining jokes to the "Somber Scots")
;=)

[Josiah Jenkins]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 16:18:08 GMT, I read these words from "Madra Dubh"

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by Cory Bhreckan

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward as a
Scottish Anthem. One would hope not, for nice bit of music as it is, it
hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands only.

I suppose "You take the high road and I'll take the low road" would be
more suitable.
But then, that might only apply to the area along side the bonnie, bonnie
banks of Loch Lommound.
Wurrah, wurrah..........

You wouldn't think so if you had ever driven up the northwest corner of
Loch Lomond on the A82. Besides, the song itself is about death, not a
great subject for a national anthem.

Coincidentally, Loch Lomond was the ancestral home of my distant kin, the
Buchanans.
The joke here is in response to "for nice bit of music as it is, it hardly
represents all Scotland being Highlands only".
Thus "High Road" and "Low Road"
(It is such a joy to me, explaining jokes to the "Somber Scots")

Where's the joke ? There aren't two roads !
There isn't even a road all the way up the Eastern bank.

Allegedly, "Two of Bonnie Prince Charlie's men were captured
and left behind in Carlisle after the failed rising of 1745. One of
the young soldiers was to be executed, the other released.
The Spirit of the dead soldier, travelling by the 'low road', would
reach Scotland before his comrade, who would be struggling
along the actual road over the high, rugged country arrived.

-- jjj

[Cory Bhreckan]

Post by Josiah Jenkins
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 16:18:08 GMT, I read these words from "Madra Dubh"

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by Cory Bhreckan

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward as a
Scottish Anthem. One would hope not, for nice bit of music as it is, it
hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands only.

I suppose "You take the high road and I'll take the low road" would be
more suitable.
But then, that might only apply to the area along side the bonnie, bonnie
banks of Loch Lommound.
Wurrah, wurrah..........

You wouldn't think so if you had ever driven up the northwest corner of
Loch Lomond on the A82. Besides, the song itself is about death, not a
great subject for a national anthem.

Coincidentally, Loch Lomond was the ancestral home of my distant kin, the
Buchanans.
The joke here is in response to "for nice bit of music as it is, it hardly
represents all Scotland being Highlands only".
Thus "High Road" and "Low Road"
(It is such a joy to me, explaining jokes to the "Somber Scots")

Where's the joke ? There aren't two roads !
There isn't even a road all the way up the Eastern bank.

Bl**dy shame too! There's nothing worse than that northwest stretch of
the A82. I'm with Jeanette(sp?) on that one.

Post by Josiah Jenkins
Allegedly, "Two of Bonnie Prince Charlie's men were captured
and left behind in Carlisle after the failed rising of 1745.

I had thought that it was Durham but whatever....

Post by Josiah Jenkins
One of
the young soldiers was to be executed, the other released.
The Spirit of the dead soldier, travelling by the 'low road', would
reach Scotland before his comrade, who would be struggling
along the actual road over the high, rugged country arrived.
-- jjj

AFAIU The "low road" is a very old Celtic belief. If you die away from
home, Ireland, Scotland, Gaul, whatever; your spirit takes the "low
road" back to the land of your birth. Right quick too.

[Ian Morrison]

Post by Cory Bhreckan

Post by Josiah Jenkins
Allegedly, "Two of Bonnie Prince Charlie's men were captured
and left behind in Carlisle after the failed rising of 1745.

I had thought that it was Durham but whatever....

Almost the entire Manchester Regiment of the Jacobite Army was left
behind in Carlisle, but they were *nglish, so the fact that they were
treated far worse than any "Highlanders" involved doesn't matter......

Post by Cory Bhreckan

Post by Josiah Jenkins
One of
the young soldiers was to be executed, the other released.
The Spirit of the dead soldier, travelling by the 'low road', would
reach Scotland before his comrade, who would be struggling
along the actual road over the high, rugged country arrived.
-- jjj

AFAIU The "low road" is a very old Celtic belief. If you die away from
home, Ireland, Scotland, Gaul, whatever; your spirit takes the "low
road" back to the land of your birth. Right quick too.

Oh b*gg*r - I did *so* want my spirit to return to Scotland....

Well that's the very old Celtic beliefs off my list of "possibles".
There's not much left....

[Madra Dubh]

Post by Josiah Jenkins
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 16:18:08 GMT, I read these words from "Madra Dubh"

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by Cory Bhreckan

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more,
the question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he
liked, "Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it
forward as a Scottish Anthem. One would hope not, for nice bit of
music as it is, it hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands
only.

I suppose "You take the high road and I'll take the low road" would be
more suitable.
But then, that might only apply to the area along side the bonnie,
bonnie banks of Loch Lommound.
Wurrah, wurrah..........

You wouldn't think so if you had ever driven up the northwest corner of
Loch Lomond on the A82. Besides, the song itself is about death, not a
great subject for a national anthem.

Coincidentally, Loch Lomond was the ancestral home of my distant kin, the
Buchanans.
The joke here is in response to "for nice bit of music as it is, it
hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands only".
Thus "High Road" and "Low Road"
(It is such a joy to me, explaining jokes to the "Somber Scots")

Where's the joke ? There aren't two roads !
There isn't even a road all the way up the Eastern bank.

Bl**dy shame too! There's nothing worse than that northwest stretch of the
A82. I'm with Jeanette(sp?) on that one.

Post by Josiah Jenkins
Allegedly, "Two of Bonnie Prince Charlie's men were captured
and left behind in Carlisle after the failed rising of 1745.

I had thought that it was Durham but whatever....

Post by Josiah Jenkins
One of
the young soldiers was to be executed, the other released.
The Spirit of the dead soldier, travelling by the 'low road', would
reach Scotland before his comrade, who would be struggling
along the actual road over the high, rugged country arrived.
-- jjj

AFAIU The "low road" is a very old Celtic belief. If you die away from
home, Ireland, Scotland, Gaul, whatever; your spirit takes the "low road"
back to the land of your birth. Right quick too.

So I will make it back to East Tennessee.
Good!

[allan connochie]

Post by Cory Bhreckan

Post by Josiah Jenkins
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 16:18:08 GMT, I read these words from "Madra Dubh"
Allegedly, "Two of Bonnie Prince Charlie's men were captured
and left behind in Carlisle after the failed rising of 1745.

I had thought that it was Durham but whatever....

Much more likely to be Carlisle. The Jacobites captured Carlisle on the way
south. Berwick, Newcastle and Durham were more heavily defended as the
invasion was expected in the east but the rebels advanced down the west of
England instead. When they retreated back into Scotland they again did so
via Carlisle and the English Jacobites were left to their fate after being
given the nigh impossible task of holding the city against the government
troops. Later Carlisle was one of the places where the trials and
executions took place. AFAIK the other places were Southwark and York.

Allan

[Ian Morrison]

Post by allan connochie

Post by Cory Bhreckan

Post by Josiah Jenkins
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 16:18:08 GMT, I read these words from "Madra Dubh"
Allegedly, "Two of Bonnie Prince Charlie's men were captured
and left behind in Carlisle after the failed rising of 1745.

I had thought that it was Durham but whatever....

Much more likely to be Carlisle. The Jacobites captured Carlisle on the way
south. Berwick, Newcastle and Durham were more heavily defended as the
invasion was expected in the east but the rebels advanced down the west of
England instead. When they retreated back into Scotland they again did so
via Carlisle and the English Jacobites were left to their fate after being
given the nigh impossible task of holding the city against the government
troops. Later Carlisle was one of the places where the trials and
executions took place. AFAIK the other places were Southwark and York.

Durham Cathedral was used by Oliver Cromwell to hold 3000 Scots
prisoners following the Battle of Dunbar in 1650. Some of the damage
they did can still be seen, not that it would have bothered Ollie much.

If the song is a reference to Jacobites imprisoned in *ngland, then I
agree that it is unlikely to be anywhere in the north east. See
http://www.northumbrianjacobites.org.uk/n45/n45pg2.htm

[Madra Dubh]

Post by Josiah Jenkins
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 16:18:08 GMT, I read these words from "Madra Dubh"

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by Cory Bhreckan

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward as a
Scottish Anthem. One would hope not, for nice bit of music as it is, it
hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands only.

I suppose "You take the high road and I'll take the low road" would be
more suitable.
But then, that might only apply to the area along side the bonnie, bonnie
banks of Loch Lommound.
Wurrah, wurrah..........

You wouldn't think so if you had ever driven up the northwest corner of
Loch Lomond on the A82. Besides, the song itself is about death, not a
great subject for a national anthem.

Coincidentally, Loch Lomond was the ancestral home of my distant kin, the
Buchanans.
The joke here is in response to "for nice bit of music as it is, it hardly
represents all Scotland being Highlands only".
Thus "High Road" and "Low Road"
(It is such a joy to me, explaining jokes to the "Somber Scots")

Where's the joke ? There aren't two roads !
There isn't even a road all the way up the Eastern bank.

I bow to your superior knowledge on these matters but one can only wonder if
the verse could not be construed (wrongly of course) as taking different
roads to arrive at Loch Lomond rather than roads along the shores of Loch
Lomond.

Post by Josiah Jenkins
Allegedly, "Two of Bonnie Prince Charlie's men were captured
and left behind in Carlisle after the failed rising of 1745. One of
the young soldiers was to be executed, the other released.
The Spirit of the dead soldier, travelling by the 'low road', would
reach Scotland before his comrade, who would be struggling
along the actual road over the high, rugged country arrived.

What Low Road would the dead soldier take, through the nether world?

[Josiah Jenkins]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 00:42:56 GMT, I read these words from "Madra Dubh"

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by Josiah Jenkins
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 16:18:08 GMT, I read these words from "Madra Dubh"

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by Cory Bhreckan

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward as a
Scottish Anthem. One would hope not, for nice bit of music as it is, it
hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands only.

I suppose "You take the high road and I'll take the low road" would be
more suitable.
But then, that might only apply to the area along side the bonnie, bonnie
banks of Loch Lommound.
Wurrah, wurrah..........

You wouldn't think so if you had ever driven up the northwest corner of
Loch Lomond on the A82. Besides, the song itself is about death, not a
great subject for a national anthem.

Coincidentally, Loch Lomond was the ancestral home of my distant kin, the
Buchanans.
The joke here is in response to "for nice bit of music as it is, it hardly
represents all Scotland being Highlands only".
Thus "High Road" and "Low Road"
(It is such a joy to me, explaining jokes to the "Somber Scots")

Where's the joke ? There aren't two roads !
There isn't even a road all the way up the Eastern bank.

I bow to your superior knowledge on these matters but one can only wonder if
the verse could not be construed (wrongly of course) as taking different
roads to arrive at Loch Lomond rather than roads along the shores of Loch
Lomond.

Post by Josiah Jenkins
Allegedly, "Two of Bonnie Prince Charlie's men were captured
and left behind in Carlisle after the failed rising of 1745. One of
the young soldiers was to be executed, the other released.
The Spirit of the dead soldier, travelling by the 'low road', would
reach Scotland before his comrade, who would be struggling
along the actual road over the high, rugged country arrived.

What Low Road would the dead soldier take, through the nether world?

Yes !

-- jjj

[Madra Dubh]

Post by Josiah Jenkins
On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 00:42:56 GMT, I read these words from "Madra Dubh"

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by Josiah Jenkins
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 16:18:08 GMT, I read these words from "Madra Dubh"

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by Cory Bhreckan

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward
as
a
Scottish Anthem. One would hope not, for nice bit of music as it is, it
hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands only.

I suppose "You take the high road and I'll take the low road" would be
more suitable.
But then, that might only apply to the area along side the bonnie, bonnie
banks of Loch Lommound.
Wurrah, wurrah..........

You wouldn't think so if you had ever driven up the northwest corner of
Loch Lomond on the A82. Besides, the song itself is about death, not a
great subject for a national anthem.

Coincidentally, Loch Lomond was the ancestral home of my distant kin, the
Buchanans.
The joke here is in response to "for nice bit of music as it is, it hardly
represents all Scotland being Highlands only".
Thus "High Road" and "Low Road"
(It is such a joy to me, explaining jokes to the "Somber Scots")

Where's the joke ? There aren't two roads !
There isn't even a road all the way up the Eastern bank.

I bow to your superior knowledge on these matters but one can only wonder if
the verse could not be construed (wrongly of course) as taking different
roads to arrive at Loch Lomond rather than roads along the shores of Loch
Lomond.

Post by Josiah Jenkins
Allegedly, "Two of Bonnie Prince Charlie's men were captured
and left behind in Carlisle after the failed rising of 1745. One of
the young soldiers was to be executed, the other released.
The Spirit of the dead soldier, travelling by the 'low road', would
reach Scotland before his comrade, who would be struggling
along the actual road over the high, rugged country arrived.

What Low Road would the dead soldier take, through the nether world?

Yes !

An ancient Celtic belief but not one confined to the Celts, as I recall.

[N Tracey]

Post by Madra Dubh
Coincidentally, Loch Lomond was the ancestral home of my distant kin, the
Buchanans.
The joke here is in response to "for nice bit of music as it is, it hardly
represents all Scotland being Highlands only".
Thus "High Road" and "Low Road"
(It is such a joy to me, explaining jokes to the "Somber Scots")
;=)

Well you'd best explain it better then 'cos it still isn't making any
sense.

Incidentally, you do realise that Loch Lomond straddles the Highland Line,
don't you? So the song *is* equal parts highland and lowland....

NT.

[Madra Dubh]

Post by N Tracey

Post by Madra Dubh
Coincidentally, Loch Lomond was the ancestral home of my distant kin, the
Buchanans.
The joke here is in response to "for nice bit of music as it is, it hardly
represents all Scotland being Highlands only".
Thus "High Road" and "Low Road"
(It is such a joy to me, explaining jokes to the "Somber Scots")
;=)

Well you'd best explain it better then 'cos it still isn't making any
sense.

I give up.
BTW, do you know why the Scottish Chicken crossed the High and Low Roads?

Post by N Tracey
Incidentally, you do realise that Loch Lomond straddles the Highland Line,
don't you? So the song *is* equal parts highland and lowland....

Not much chance it will be made the national anthem though, is there?

[HelpmaBoab]

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward as a

I suggest either 'Scotch on the rocks' or 'The Black Bear'. In the Black
Bear the 'Yeee...ooooch' bit is partularly stirring.

Tam

[Lesley Robertson]

Post by HelpmaBoab

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward as a

I suggest either 'Scotch on the rocks' or 'The Black Bear'. In the Black
Bear the 'Yeee...ooooch' bit is partularly stirring.

Campbelltown Loch??
I must admit that I rather like the idea of watching folk trying to march to
Black Bear.....
It DOES have to be something the crowds at Murrayfield can sing, though....
Lesley Robertson

[i***@blueyonder.co.uk]

How can FLOWER OF SCOTLAND be nationalistic when it is written about
Bonnie Prince Charlie and the Jacobite (almost wrote sodomite there)
rebellion,which was not an English v Scottish thing but a sort of cross
border civil war.
The British army,containing a lot of lowland protestant Scots beat a
mostly RC highland army with German mercenaries.
So along with being a crap song Flower Of Scotland is not even a
traditional Scottish song.

Scotland The Brave has always been used for sporting occasions
involving Scottish teams,Land Of Hope And Glory is used by England at
the Commonwealth Games,think Northern Ireland uses Danny Boy.
When I used to go to Scotland v England football matches 20-30 years
ago nearly all the crowd used to chant "IF YOU HATE THE ENGLISH
BASTARDS CLAP YOU HANDS",perhaps this could be the new anthem for our
mature country?

[Ian Morrison]

Post by i***@blueyonder.co.uk
How can FLOWER OF SCOTLAND be nationalistic when it is written about
Bonnie Prince Charlie and the Jacobite (almost wrote sodomite there)
rebellion,which was not an English v Scottish thing but a sort of cross
border civil war.

"And stood against him,
Proud Edward's Army,
And sent him homeward,
Tae think again."

Do you really think that the song is about BPC and the
Jacobite/Hanoverian struggle? If so, which "Proud Edward" were the
Jacobites fighting?

BTW, I agree with you about the Jacobite rebellions not being *nglish v
Scots.

Post by i***@blueyonder.co.uk
The British army,containing a lot of lowland protestant Scots beat a
mostly RC highland army with German mercenaries.

Nope, the Hanoverian Army contained a lot of Highland RCs, and others,
and the Jacobite one contained a mixture of *nglish RCs, Scots of all
denominations and none, and a few others.

Post by i***@blueyonder.co.uk
So along with being a crap song Flower Of Scotland is not even a
traditional Scottish song.

True.

Post by i***@blueyonder.co.uk
Scotland The Brave has always been used for sporting occasions
involving Scottish teams,

Nope. It's not a "traditional Scottish song either".

Post by i***@blueyonder.co.uk
Land Of Hope And Glory is used by England at
the Commonwealth Games,think Northern Ireland uses Danny Boy.
When I used to go to Scotland v England football matches 20-30 years
ago nearly all the crowd used to chant "IF YOU HATE THE ENGLISH
BASTARDS CLAP YOU HANDS",perhaps this could be the new anthem for our
mature country?

The latter has the advantage that you can insert the name of whichever
b*st*rds one is playing at the time, be they Faroese, Lithuanians,
Ukrainians, French, Italians......

And everyone knows the words and the "tune".

--
Ian O.
http://www.iomorrison.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

[Lesley Robertson]

Post by i***@blueyonder.co.uk
How can FLOWER OF SCOTLAND be nationalistic when it is written about
Bonnie Prince Charlie and the Jacobite (almost wrote sodomite there)
rebellion,

Nope. Robert the Bruce vs Edward II of England at Bannockburn a couple of
hundred years earlier.
Leley Robertson

[allan connochie]

Post by i***@blueyonder.co.uk
How can FLOWER OF SCOTLAND be nationalistic when it is written about
Bonnie Prince Charlie and the Jacobite (almost wrote sodomite there)
rebellion,which was not an English v Scottish thing but a sort of cross
border civil war.

So I take it you don't actually know the words of Flower of Scotland? Bonnie
prince Charlie indeed :-)


Allan

[R.Peffers.]

Post by allan connochie

Post by i***@blueyonder.co.uk
How can FLOWER OF SCOTLAND be nationalistic when it is written about
Bonnie Prince Charlie and the Jacobite (almost wrote sodomite there)
rebellion,which was not an English v Scottish thing but a sort of cross
border civil war.

So I take it you don't actually know the words of Flower of Scotland? Bonnie
prince Charlie indeed :-)
Allan

From http://www.siliconglen.com/Scotland/9_3_1.html

The Flower of Scotland is the title given in the Corries songbook, not
"Flower of Scotland"). This song was adopted as the official football anthem
by the SFA in 1997. It was already the official rugby anthem.


Flower of Scotland was composed at 69 Northumberland Street, Edinburgh


The Flower of Scotland
1.
O flower of Scotland
When will we see
Your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again


2.
The hills are bare now
And autumn leaves lie thick and still
O'er land that is lost now
Which those so dearly held
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again


3.
Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain
But we can still rise now
And be the nation again
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again


Words and music: Roy Williamson. (c) The Corries (Music) Ltd.
Website: http://www.corries.com/



The Flower of Scotland (Gaelic translation)
Here is an authorised Gaelic translation


FLOWER OF SCOTLAND
(translation by John Angus Macleod)


O Fhlu\ir na h-Albann,
cuin a chi\ sinn
an seo\rsa laoich
a sheas gu ba\s 'son
am bileag feo\ir is fraoich,
a sheas an aghaidh
feachd uailleil Iomhair
's a ruaig e dhachaidh
air chaochladh smaoin?


Na cnuic tha lomnochd
's tha duilleach Foghair
mar bhrat air la\r,
am fearann caillte
dan tug na seo\id ud gra\dh,
a sheas an aghaidh
feachd uailleil Iomhair
's a ruaig e dhachaigh
air chaochladh smaoin.


Tha 'n eachdraidh du\inte
ach air di\ochuimhne
chan fheum i bhith,
is faodaidh sinn e\irigh
gu bhith nar Ri\oghachd a-ri\s
a sheas an aghaidh
feachd uailleil Iomhair
's a ruaig e dhachaidh
air chaochladh smaoin.

[m***@eircom.net]

Post by R.Peffers.

Post by allan connochie

Post by i***@blueyonder.co.uk
How can FLOWER OF SCOTLAND be nationalistic when it is written about
Bonnie Prince Charlie and the Jacobite (almost wrote sodomite there)
rebellion,which was not an English v Scottish thing but a sort of cross
border civil war.

So I take it you don't actually know the words of Flower of Scotland? Bonnie
prince Charlie indeed :-)
Allan

From http://www.siliconglen.com/Scotland/9_3_1.html
The Flower of Scotland is the title given in the Corries songbook, not
"Flower of Scotland"). This song was adopted as the official football anthem
by the SFA in 1997. It was already the official rugby anthem.
Flower of Scotland was composed at 69 Northumberland Street, Edinburgh
The Flower of Scotland
1.
O flower of Scotland
When will we see
Your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again
2.
The hills are bare now
And autumn leaves lie thick and still
O'er land that is lost now
Which those so dearly held
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again
3.
Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain
But we can still rise now
And be the nation again
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again
Words and music: Roy Williamson. (c) The Corries (Music) Ltd.
Website: http://www.corries.com/
The Flower of Scotland (Gaelic translation)
Here is an authorised Gaelic translation
FLOWER OF SCOTLAND
(translation by John Angus Macleod)
O Fhlu\ir na h-Albann,
cuin a chi\ sinn
an seo\rsa laoich
a sheas gu ba\s 'son
am bileag feo\ir is fraoich,
a sheas an aghaidh
feachd uailleil Iomhair
's a ruaig e dhachaidh
air chaochladh smaoin?
Na cnuic tha lomnochd
's tha duilleach Foghair
mar bhrat air la\r,
am fearann caillte
dan tug na seo\id ud gra\dh,
a sheas an aghaidh
feachd uailleil Iomhair
's a ruaig e dhachaigh
air chaochladh smaoin.
Tha 'n eachdraidh du\inte
ach air di\ochuimhne
chan fheum i bhith,
is faodaidh sinn e\irigh
gu bhith nar Ri\oghachd a-ri\s
a sheas an aghaidh
feachd uailleil Iomhair
's a ruaig e dhachaidh
air chaochladh smaoin.
--

I like the Gaelic version! Maybe we should adopt that? And before
anybody starts moaning about Gaelic, consider the Irish. They all sing
Amhrann na Bh'Fiann and there ain't many Irish speakers in atha Cliath!

Seriously though folks, we're much too narrow minded and petty to have
a Gaelic anthem, unfortuantely. Perosnally, I'd go for Brian McNeill's
'No Gods (and precious few heroes).'

So farewell tae the heather and the glen.
They've kicked us off once and they'd do it all again,
Because they prefer sheep to thinking men
Aye but men that think like sheep are even better!
Are ye sitting in yer cooncil hoose thinkin boot yer clan?
Waitin fer the Jacobites to come and free the land?
Try goin doon the broo wi yer claymore in yer hand
And coont a the princes in the queue!

Sorta sums up the Scottish psyche!

Mike

[Lesley Robertson]

Post by m***@eircom.net
Seriously though folks, we're much too narrow minded and petty to have
a Gaelic anthem, unfortuantely. Perosnally, I'd go for Brian McNeill's
'No Gods (and precious few heroes).'

But what about the large chunk of Scotland that's never been gaelic
speaking. Is it narrow-minded and petty to consider that the Lowlands (which
aren't just around the Borders) also deserve representation?
Lesley Robertson

[S Viemeister]

Post by Lesley Robertson

Post by m***@eircom.net
Seriously though folks, we're much too narrow minded and petty to have
a Gaelic anthem, unfortuantely. Perosnally, I'd go for Brian McNeill's
'No Gods (and precious few heroes).'

But what about the large chunk of Scotland that's never been gaelic
speaking. Is it narrow-minded and petty to consider that the Lowlands (which
aren't just around the Borders) also deserve representation?

Doesn't Canada have both English and French versions of 'O Canada'?
Perhaps we could do soemthing similar with a Scottish anthem.
(No, not French and English - Gaelic, Scots, and English.)
A short verse in each language, maybe?

[The Highlander]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 08:09:13 -0500, S Viemeister

Post by S Viemeister

Post by Lesley Robertson

Post by m***@eircom.net
Seriously though folks, we're much too narrow minded and petty to have
a Gaelic anthem, unfortuantely. Perosnally, I'd go for Brian McNeill's
'No Gods (and precious few heroes).'

But what about the large chunk of Scotland that's never been gaelic
speaking. Is it narrow-minded and petty to consider that the Lowlands (which
aren't just around the Borders) also deserve representation?

Doesn't Canada have both English and French versions of 'O Canada'?
Perhaps we could do soemthing similar with a Scottish anthem.
(No, not French and English - Gaelic, Scots, and English.)
A short verse in each language, maybe?

Excellent suggestion! Would need a damned fine poet to do it - the
languages are so far apart grammatically that some adjustments would
be inevitable.

However, cooncerning your O Canada suggestion, the English version
(the French version is the original) isn't too bad. Grammatically,
French and English are not too separate, but little attempt was made
to create a literal English version.

Here is a comparison.

English Version of the National Anthem

O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

English Translation of the French Version of the National Anthem

O Canada! Land of our forefathers
Thy brow is wreathed with a glorious garland of flowers.
As in thy arm ready to wield the sword,
So also is it ready to carry the cross.
Thy history is an epic of the most brilliant exploits.
Ch.
Thy valour steeped in faith
Will protect our homes and our rights
Will protect our homes and our rights.

French Version of the National Anthem

O Canada! Terre de nos aïeux,
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux!
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée,
Il sait porter la croix!
Ton histoire est une épopée
Des plus brillants exploits.
Et ta valeur, de foi trempée,
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.

It is the custom on official bi-lingual occasions for singers, choirs,
whatever, to alternate two to four lines in French with
English.between the English and French versions. This seems to keep
everyone happy and as most English-Canadians don't speak French and
most French-Canadians don't speak English, it's nice to see at least
that irritation solved!


The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an pòst seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.
Ag amas air adhartas ann an Gàidhlig.
Aiming for advancement in the Gaelic.

[Craig Cockburn]

In message <***@news>, The Highlander <***@shaw.ca>
writes

Post by The Highlander
On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 08:09:13 -0500, S Viemeister

Post by S Viemeister

Post by Lesley Robertson

Post by m***@eircom.net
Seriously though folks, we're much too narrow minded and petty to have
a Gaelic anthem, unfortuantely. Perosnally, I'd go for Brian McNeill's
'No Gods (and precious few heroes).'

But what about the large chunk of Scotland that's never been gaelic
speaking. Is it narrow-minded and petty to consider that the Lowlands (which
aren't just around the Borders) also deserve representation?

Doesn't Canada have both English and French versions of 'O Canada'?
Perhaps we could do soemthing similar with a Scottish anthem.
(No, not French and English - Gaelic, Scots, and English.)
A short verse in each language, maybe?

Excellent suggestion! Would need a damned fine poet to do it - the
languages are so far apart grammatically that some adjustments would
be inevitable.
However, cooncerning your O Canada suggestion, the English version
(the French version is the original) isn't too bad. Grammatically,
French and English are not too separate, but little attempt was made
to create a literal English version.
Here is a comparison.
English Version of the National Anthem
O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
English Translation of the French Version of the National Anthem
O Canada! Land of our forefathers
Thy brow is wreathed with a glorious garland of flowers.
As in thy arm ready to wield the sword,
So also is it ready to carry the cross.
Thy history is an epic of the most brilliant exploits.
Ch.
Thy valour steeped in faith
Will protect our homes and our rights
Will protect our homes and our rights.
French Version of the National Anthem
O Canada! Terre de nos aïeux,
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux!
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée,
Il sait porter la croix!
Ton histoire est une épopée
Des plus brillants exploits.
Et ta valeur, de foi trempée,
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.

and of course

O Canada, an taobh tuath treubhach, co\ir.
Cru\n air do cheann le duilleach dearg is o\r;
Bho chuan gu cuan, bho linn gu linn
Do chliu\ ni sinn a luaidh;
Fo sga\th do sge/ith tha saorsa ghrinn
Nach spu\inn an spu\illear bhuainn:
O Canada, du\rachd ar ci\dh' --
Sonas le si\th is mathas De/ d'ar ti\r,
Sonas le si\th is mathas De/ d'ar ti\r.

[The Highlander]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 07:38:49 +0100, Craig Cockburn

Post by Craig Cockburn
writes

Post by The Highlander
On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 08:09:13 -0500, S Viemeister

Post by S Viemeister

Post by Lesley Robertson

Post by m***@eircom.net
Seriously though folks, we're much too narrow minded and petty to have
a Gaelic anthem, unfortuantely. Perosnally, I'd go for Brian McNeill's
'No Gods (and precious few heroes).'

But what about the large chunk of Scotland that's never been gaelic
speaking. Is it narrow-minded and petty to consider that the Lowlands (which
aren't just around the Borders) also deserve representation?

Doesn't Canada have both English and French versions of 'O Canada'?
Perhaps we could do soemthing similar with a Scottish anthem.
(No, not French and English - Gaelic, Scots, and English.)
A short verse in each language, maybe?

Excellent suggestion! Would need a damned fine poet to do it - the
languages are so far apart grammatically that some adjustments would
be inevitable.
However, cooncerning your O Canada suggestion, the English version
(the French version is the original) isn't too bad. Grammatically,
French and English are not too separate, but little attempt was made
to create a literal English version.
Here is a comparison.
English Version of the National Anthem
O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
English Translation of the French Version of the National Anthem
O Canada! Land of our forefathers
Thy brow is wreathed with a glorious garland of flowers.
As in thy arm ready to wield the sword,
So also is it ready to carry the cross.
Thy history is an epic of the most brilliant exploits.
Ch.
Thy valour steeped in faith
Will protect our homes and our rights
Will protect our homes and our rights.
French Version of the National Anthem
O Canada! Terre de nos aïeux,
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux!
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée,
Il sait porter la croix!
Ton histoire est une épopée
Des plus brillants exploits.
Et ta valeur, de foi trempée,
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.

and of course
O Canada, an taobh tuath treubhach, co\ir.
Cru\n air do cheann le duilleach dearg is o\r;
Bho chuan gu cuan, bho linn gu linn
Do chliu\ ni sinn a luaidh;
Fo sga\th do sge/ith tha saorsa ghrinn
O Canada, du\rachd ar ci\dh' --
Sonas le si\th is mathas De/ d'ar ti\r,
Sonas le si\th is mathas De/ d'ar ti\r.
--
Craig Cockburn ("coburn"). Owner, http://www.SiliconGlen.com/
Home to the first online guide to Scotland, founded 1994.
Scottish FAQ, weddings, website design, stop spam and more!
Blog: http://siliconglen.blogspot.com/

You'd have to go to Cape Breton Island to hear that, but I recollect,
that you were there some years ago, unless my memory is playing
tricks.

The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an pòst seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.
Ag amas air adhartas ann an Gàidhlig.
Aiming for advancement in the Gaelic.

[Craig Cockburn]

In message <***@news>, The Highlander <***@shaw.ca>
writes

Post by The Highlander
You'd have to go to Cape Breton Island to hear that, but I recollect,
that you were there some years ago, unless my memory is playing
tricks.

indeed I was

[Adam Whyte-Settlar]

Post by S Viemeister

Post by Lesley Robertson

Post by m***@eircom.net
Seriously though folks, we're much too narrow minded and petty to have
a Gaelic anthem, unfortuantely. Perosnally, I'd go for Brian McNeill's
'No Gods (and precious few heroes).'

But what about the large chunk of Scotland that's never been gaelic
speaking. Is it narrow-minded and petty to consider that the Lowlands (which
aren't just around the Borders) also deserve representation?

Doesn't Canada have both English and French versions of 'O Canada'?
Perhaps we could do soemthing similar with a Scottish anthem.
(No, not French and English - Gaelic, Scots, and English.)
A short verse in each language, maybe?

That's a great idea!! - well apart from a couple of minor details - like the
Gaelic and Scots bits.
Otherwise I like it - not a lot, but I do like it.

A W-S

[Ian Morrison]

Post by Adam Whyte-Settlar

Post by S Viemeister
Doesn't Canada have both English and French versions of 'O Canada'?
Perhaps we could do soemthing similar with a Scottish anthem.
(No, not French and English - Gaelic, Scots, and English.)
A short verse in each language, maybe?

That's a great idea!! - well apart from a couple of minor details - like the
Gaelic and Scots bits.
Otherwise I like it - not a lot, but I do like it.

I think a line or two in Urdu, and possibly some other languages, would
have to be included. The Literacy Trust, in a 2001 report, recommended
consideration of the following, in a UK-wide context:
Albanian/Kosovon, Arabic, Bengali, Chinese, Croatian, Farsi/Persian,
French, German, Greek, Gujerati, Hindi, Italian, Japanese, Polish,
Portuguese, Punjabi, Russian, Serbian, Somali, Spanish, Swahili,
Turkish, Urdu, Vietnamese.

We could have the most inclusive, multicultural, anthem in the world!

Just to wind up Glenallan, if for no other reason......

[Adam Whyte-Settlar]

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Adam Whyte-Settlar

Post by S Viemeister
Doesn't Canada have both English and French versions of 'O Canada'?
Perhaps we could do soemthing similar with a Scottish anthem.
(No, not French and English - Gaelic, Scots, and English.)
A short verse in each language, maybe?

That's a great idea!! - well apart from a couple of minor details - like
the Gaelic and Scots bits.
Otherwise I like it - not a lot, but I do like it.

I think a line or two in Urdu, and possibly some other languages, would
have to be included. The Literacy Trust, in a 2001 report, recommended
Albanian/Kosovon, Arabic, Bengali, Chinese, Croatian, Farsi/Persian,
French, German, Greek, Gujerati, Hindi, Italian, Japanese, Polish,
Portuguese, Punjabi, Russian, Serbian, Somali, Spanish, Swahili, Turkish,
Urdu, Vietnamese.

So you socialists *do* hate the Maoris?
Why not go the whole hog and just use Esperanto - that would piss
*everybody* off.

A W-S

[The Highlander]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:57:54 GMT, Ian Morrison

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Adam Whyte-Settlar

Post by S Viemeister
Doesn't Canada have both English and French versions of 'O Canada'?
Perhaps we could do soemthing similar with a Scottish anthem.
(No, not French and English - Gaelic, Scots, and English.)
A short verse in each language, maybe?

That's a great idea!! - well apart from a couple of minor details - like the
Gaelic and Scots bits.
Otherwise I like it - not a lot, but I do like it.

I think a line or two in Urdu, and possibly some other languages, would
have to be included. The Literacy Trust, in a 2001 report, recommended
Albanian/Kosovon, Arabic, Bengali, Chinese, Croatian, Farsi/Persian,
French, German, Greek, Gujerati, Hindi, Italian, Japanese, Polish,
Portuguese, Punjabi, Russian, Serbian, Somali, Spanish, Swahili,
Turkish, Urdu, Vietnamese.
We could have the most inclusive, multicultural, anthem in the world!
Just to wind up Glenallan, if for no other reason......
--
Ian O.
http://www.iomorrison.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

When I was small I remember us singing a Gaelic version of God Save
the Queen which went:

Slàint', deagh shlàint' do'n Bhanrigh,
Slàint', deagh shlàint' do'n Bhanrigh,
Slàint', do'n Bhanrigh,

(Health, excellent health to the Queen
Health, excellent health to the Queen
Health to the Queen)

I have mercifully forgotten the rest.

However, there is a church-approved version from the St Columba Gaelic
Hymnbook, the church I used to attend on the Royal Mile whenever I got
homesick and where long-singing was practiced

God Save the Queen is No. 82 in the Hymnal.
http://www.highlandcathedral.org/gaelic.php?section=gaelic&resource=hymn&id=82

Oddly the following verses are directed at a King, rather than a
Queen. Perhaps because the word for Queen - Bhanrigh - lit. fair King
- would ruin the scansion, it has been decided to withdraw Her
Majesty's sexual status for the duration of the hymn.

I must say it does seem a little rude; even disloyal; given that she
performed gallantly in providing a surplus of potential candidates for
the Throne in the event that Prince Charles was suddenly removed from
the picture by some simple accident; such as a sudden gust of wind
picking him up by his ears and flying him off to the Dogger Bank or
the Bay of Biskay to be drowned; a not unreasonable scenario, given
the elephantine size of the Royal ears. No kidding - the guy looks
like "Dumbo goes to Disneyland".


DHIA, thoir d ar n-uachdran gaoil
Sonas is sìneadh saoghl;
Dhia, dìon an Rìgh;
Deònaich dha buaidh sa chòir,
Ard-ghreadhnachas is glòir,
Fad-riaghladh aoibhinn, mòr;
Dhia, dìon an Rìgh !

2 Do mhaitheas caoin, neo-ghann,
Bi dortadh air a cheann,
Gun sgur, gun dìth ;
Ceart-reachdan biodh ra linn,
Á sìor thoirt aobhair dhuinn,
Le guth s le cridh bhith seinn
Dhia, dion an Rìgh ! AMEN.

(God save our gracious Queen,
long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
happy and glorious,
long to reign over us,
God save the Queen!

(Thy choicest gifts in store
on her be pleased to pour,
long may she reign:
may she defend our laws,
and ever give us cause
to sing with heart and voice
God save the Queen!)

The petitioning verse to God asking him to punish rebellious Scots has
sadly been omitted. I imagine that now He knows about SCS, no further
encouragement is needed as He has ensured that we suffer from constant
plagues of English, Irish and American weirdos, not to mention our
home-grown varieties.













The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an pòst seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.
Ag amas air adhartas ann an Gàidhlig.
Aiming for advancement in the Gaelic.

[m***@eircom.net]

Post by Lesley Robertson

Post by m***@eircom.net
Seriously though folks, we're much too narrow minded and petty to have
a Gaelic anthem, unfortuantely. Perosnally, I'd go for Brian McNeill's
'No Gods (and precious few heroes).'

But what about the large chunk of Scotland that's never been gaelic
speaking. Is it narrow-minded and petty to consider that the Lowlands (which
aren't just around the Borders) also deserve representation?
Lesley Robertson

Don't you think that we can maybe make just one concession to the fact
that we have Gaelic as a language of Scotland? Is even that too much?

Doesn't seem to bother the Irish too much!

Mike

[allan connochie]

Post by m***@eircom.net

Post by Lesley Robertson

Post by m***@eircom.net
Seriously though folks, we're much too narrow minded and petty to have
a Gaelic anthem, unfortuantely. Perosnally, I'd go for Brian McNeill's
'No Gods (and precious few heroes).'

But what about the large chunk of Scotland that's never been gaelic
speaking. Is it narrow-minded and petty to consider that the Lowlands (which
aren't just around the Borders) also deserve representation?
Lesley Robertson

Don't you think that we can maybe make just one concession to the fact
that we have Gaelic as a language of Scotland? Is even that too much?

Reality needs to come into it though. Absolutely nothing wrong with having a
Gaelic version and even using it as the anthem on occassions. But why adopt
the Gaelic version as 'the anthem'? It is not the original version and
heaven forbid it can be embarrasing enough hearing people murder it at
sporting occassions but it would be even worse if we to use a version that
hardly anybody knew or understood as the main version.


Allan

[Craig Cockburn]

Post by Lesley Robertson

Post by m***@eircom.net

Post by Lesley Robertson

Post by m***@eircom.net
Seriously though folks, we're much too narrow minded and petty to have
a Gaelic anthem, unfortuantely. Perosnally, I'd go for Brian McNeill's
'No Gods (and precious few heroes).'

But what about the large chunk of Scotland that's never been gaelic
speaking. Is it narrow-minded and petty to consider that the Lowlands

(which

Post by m***@eircom.net

Post by Lesley Robertson
aren't just around the Borders) also deserve representation?
Lesley Robertson

Don't you think that we can maybe make just one concession to the fact
that we have Gaelic as a language of Scotland? Is even that too much?

Reality needs to come into it though. Absolutely nothing wrong with having a
Gaelic version and even using it as the anthem on occassions. But why adopt
the Gaelic version as 'the anthem'?

Canan nan Gaidheal anyone?

[R.Peffers.]

Post by m***@eircom.net

Post by Lesley Robertson

Post by m***@eircom.net
Seriously though folks, we're much too narrow minded and petty to have
a Gaelic anthem, unfortuantely. Perosnally, I'd go for Brian McNeill's
'No Gods (and precious few heroes).'

But what about the large chunk of Scotland that's never been gaelic
speaking. Is it narrow-minded and petty to consider that the Lowlands (which
aren't just around the Borders) also deserve representation?
Lesley Robertson

Don't you think that we can maybe make just one concession to the fact
that we have Gaelic as a language of Scotland? Is even that too much?
Doesn't seem to bother the Irish too much!
Mike

You have to be kidding! There care Gaelic radio stations, regular Gaelic TV
shows and the Scottish Executive funds the Gaelic Language. There are no
Lowland Scots Radio Stations, very few Lowland Scots Language programmes and
there is no funding for Lowland Scots. In fact there is very little other
than some Robert Burns songs and poems. You would think Burns was the only
Scots Poet if you did not know better.

[Craig Cockburn]

Post by Lesley Robertson

Post by m***@eircom.net
Seriously though folks, we're much too narrow minded and petty to have
a Gaelic anthem, unfortuantely. Perosnally, I'd go for Brian McNeill's
'No Gods (and precious few heroes).'

But what about the large chunk of Scotland that's never been gaelic
speaking. Is it narrow-minded and petty to consider that the Lowlands (which
aren't just around the Borders) also deserve representation?
Lesley Robertson

The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

[allan connochie]

Post by Craig Cockburn

Post by Lesley Robertson

Post by m***@eircom.net
Seriously though folks, we're much too narrow minded and petty to have
a Gaelic anthem, unfortuantely. Perosnally, I'd go for Brian McNeill's
'No Gods (and precious few heroes).'

But what about the large chunk of Scotland that's never been gaelic
speaking. Is it narrow-minded and petty to consider that the Lowlands (which
aren't just around the Borders) also deserve representation?
Lesley Robertson

The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

Depends what is meant by Gaelic speaking. Does it mean there were some
Gaelic speakers or does it mean Gaelic was very common perhaps even the
dominant language. If it's the former then yes "the Lowlands were Gaelic
speaking" is true and of course it still is true. There are at least some
Gaelic speakers in every part of Lowland Scotland. If it is the latter
though then we can only say with certainty "some of the Lowlands were Gaelic
speaking" as the evidence seems to be that significant parts of the Lowlands
only had a limited penetration with some parts having virtually no
significant penetration.

Besides it is all by the by. If we want an anthem for everyone then we
surely want an anthem that more than a miniscule fraction of the population
can even understand? I wouldn't want Flower of Scotland anyway, but if it
is our anthem it is so because a significant amount of people took it to
their heart. But what they took to their hearts was Williamson's folk song -
not a Gaelic translation of it. Of course as I've said there is nothing
wrong with a Gaelic version and there is nothing wrong with using it at
times, in fact it should be encouraged. What I was arguing against was the
idea that the Gaelic version should be 'the' official anthem. It makes no
sense. If we were to have dual anthems (maybe it should be triple as FOS is
hardly in Scots) then surely there are plenty of genuine Gaelic tunes rather
than putting Gaelic words to the dirge.


Allan

Post by Craig Cockburn
--
Craig Cockburn ("coburn"). http://www.SiliconGlen.com/
Please sign the Spam Petition: http://www.siliconglen.com/spampetition/
Home to the first online guide to Scotland, founded 1994.
Scottish FAQ, weddings, website design, stop spam and more!

[R.Peffers.]

Post by Lesley Robertson

Post by Craig Cockburn

Post by Lesley Robertson

Post by m***@eircom.net
Seriously though folks, we're much too narrow minded and petty to have
a Gaelic anthem, unfortuantely. Perosnally, I'd go for Brian McNeill's
'No Gods (and precious few heroes).'

But what about the large chunk of Scotland that's never been gaelic
speaking. Is it narrow-minded and petty to consider that the Lowlands

(which

Post by Craig Cockburn

Post by Lesley Robertson
aren't just around the Borders) also deserve representation?
Lesley Robertson

The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

Depends what is meant by Gaelic speaking. Does it mean there were some
Gaelic speakers or does it mean Gaelic was very common perhaps even the
dominant language. If it's the former then yes "the Lowlands were Gaelic
speaking" is true and of course it still is true. There are at least some
Gaelic speakers in every part of Lowland Scotland. If it is the latter
though then we can only say with certainty "some of the Lowlands were Gaelic
speaking" as the evidence seems to be that significant parts of the Lowlands
only had a limited penetration with some parts having virtually no
significant penetration.
Besides it is all by the by. If we want an anthem for everyone then we
surely want an anthem that more than a miniscule fraction of the population
can even understand? I wouldn't want Flower of Scotland anyway, but if it
is our anthem it is so because a significant amount of people took it to
their heart. But what they took to their hearts was Williamson's folk song -
not a Gaelic translation of it. Of course as I've said there is nothing
wrong with a Gaelic version and there is nothing wrong with using it at
times, in fact it should be encouraged. What I was arguing against was the
idea that the Gaelic version should be 'the' official anthem. It makes no
sense. If we were to have dual anthems (maybe it should be triple as FOS is
hardly in Scots) then surely there are plenty of genuine Gaelic tunes rather
than putting Gaelic words to the dirge.
Allan

Post by Craig Cockburn
--
Craig Cockburn ("coburn"). http://www.SiliconGlen.com/
Please sign the Spam Petition: http://www.siliconglen.com/spampetition/
Home to the first online guide to Scotland, founded 1994.
Scottish FAQ, weddings, website design, stop spam and more!

As I said before there are some Scots who would not know any other poet than
Robert Burns so here is a poem by another Scot.

Bonnie Wood O' Craigielea

Thou bonnie wood o' Craigielea!
Thou bonnie wood o' Craigielea!
Near thee I pass'd life's early day,
And won my Mary's heart in thee.

The brume, the brier, the birken bush,
Blume bonnie o'er thy flowery lee,
An a the sweets that ane can wish
Frae Nature's han, are strewed on thee.

Far ben thy dark green plantin's shade,
The cushat croodles am'rously,
The mavis, doon thy bughted glade,
Gars echo ring frae ev'ry tree.

Awa, ye thochtless, murd'rin gang
Wha tear the nestlins ere they flee!
They'll sing you yet a cantie sang,
Then, oh! in pity let them be!

Whan Winter blaws, in sleety showers,
Frae aff the Norlan hills sae hie,
He lichtly skiffs thy bonnie bow'rs,
As laith tae harm a flow'r in thee.

Though fate should drag me south the line,
Or o'er the wide Atlantic sea,
The happy hours I'll ever mind
That I, in youth, hae spent in thee.

Unusual Words:
brume=broom
birken=beech
han=hand
ben=within
cushat croodles=woodpigeon nestles
mavis=thrush
bughted=sheltered
gars=makes
cantie=tuneful
lichtly skiffs=lightly skim
laith=loath

How many know who wrote it?

[Joe Makowiec]

Post by R.Peffers.
As I said before there are some Scots who would not know any other
poet than Robert Burns

I notice that you don't mention William Topaz McGonagall!

http://www.it-serve.co.uk/poetry/Mcgonagall/mcgonagallhome.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Topaz_McGonagall

The first resource looks as if it might shed some light on this
discussion:

http://www.it-serve.co.uk/poetry/

[Lesley Robertson]

Post by Joe Makowiec

Post by R.Peffers.
As I said before there are some Scots who would not know any other
poet than Robert Burns

I notice that you don't mention William Topaz McGonagall!
http://www.it-serve.co.uk/poetry/Mcgonagall/mcgonagallhome.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Topaz_McGonagall

There's another good site about him here
http://www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk/
And of course there's the Appreciation Society
http://www.taynet.co.uk/users/mcgon/
Lesley Robertson

[Ian Morrison]

Post by Lesley Robertson

Post by Joe Makowiec

Post by R.Peffers.
As I said before there are some Scots who would not know any other
poet than Robert Burns

I notice that you don't mention William Topaz McGonagall!
http://www.it-serve.co.uk/poetry/Mcgonagall/mcgonagallhome.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Topaz_McGonagall

There's another good site about him here
http://www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk/
And of course there's the Appreciation Society
http://www.taynet.co.uk/users/mcgon/

There was a lengthy piece about him in "The Guardian" a couple of months
ago -
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/classics/story/0,,1691120,00.html

[Joe Makowiec]

Post by Ian Morrison
There was a lengthy piece about him in "The Guardian" a couple of
months ago -
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/classics/story/0,,1691120,00.html

Good piece - honest yet sympathetic. Thanks for posting the link.

[Adam Whyte-Settlar]

Post by R.Peffers.
As I said before there are some Scots who would not know any other poet
than Robert Burns so here is a poem by another Scot.
Bonnie Wood O' Craigielea
How many know who wrote it?

I've no idea but it's brilliant.

Gonnae save me a googling?

[Adam Whyte-Settlar]

Post by Adam Whyte-Settlar

Post by R.Peffers.
As I said before there are some Scots who would not know any other poet
than Robert Burns so here is a poem by another Scot.
Bonnie Wood O' Craigielea
How many know who wrote it?

I've no idea but it's brilliant.
Gonnae save me a googling?

Too late! I couldn't resist.

It's Robert Tannahill from Portsmouth folks.

I've also just discovered that the famous New Zealand tune 'Waltzing
Matilda' is also based on the tune to the above ditty.

Sweet.

A W-S

[The Highlander]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 01:25:04 +1200, "Adam Whyte-Settlar"

Post by Adam Whyte-Settlar

Post by Adam Whyte-Settlar

Post by R.Peffers.
As I said before there are some Scots who would not know any other poet
than Robert Burns so here is a poem by another Scot.
Bonnie Wood O' Craigielea
How many know who wrote it?

I've no idea but it's brilliant.
Gonnae save me a googling?

Too late! I couldn't resist.
It's Robert Tannahill from Portsmouth folks.
I've also just discovered that the famous New Zealand tune 'Waltzing
Matilda' is also based on the tune to the above ditty.

What nonsense - it's based on an old Norse sledging song, "Min hund
har loppen - My dog has fleas"

Now if you'd said Po Karekare ana...

Post by Adam Whyte-Settlar
Sweet.
A W-S

The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an pòst seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.
Ag amas air adhartas ann an Gàidhlig.
Aiming for advancement in the Gaelic.

[Adam Whyte-Settlar]

Post by The Highlander

Post by Adam Whyte-Settlar
I've also just discovered that the famous New Zealand tune 'Waltzing
Matilda' is also based on the tune to the above ditty.

What nonsense - it's based on an old Norse sledging song, "Min hund
har loppen - My dog has fleas"
Now if you'd said Po Karekare ana...

Po Karekare is based on the old Cornish song;
Oi 'ad 'er, oi 'ad 'er, oi 'ad 'er oi ay.
Oi 'ad 'er boi noight, an Oi 'ad 'er boi day.

Pökarekare ana
ngä wai o Waiapu, 1
Whiti atu koe hine
marino ana e.
E hine e
hoki mai ra.
Ka mate ahau 2
I te aroha e.

Tuhituhi taku reta
tuku atu taku rïngi,
Kia kite tö iwi
raru raru ana e.

Whati whati taku pene 3
ka pau aku pepa,
Ko taku aroha
mau tonu ana e.

E kore te aroha
e maroke i te rä,
Mäkükü tonu i
aku roimata e.



They are agitated
the waters of Waiapu,
cross over girl
'tis calm.

Oh girl
return (to me),
I could die
of love (for you).

I have written my letter
I have sent my ring,
so that your people can see
(that I am) troubled.

My pen is shattered,
I have no more paper
(But) my love
is still steadfast.

(My) love will never
be dried by the sun,
It will be forever moistened
by my tears.

[allan connochie]

Post by The Highlander
On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 01:25:04 +1200, "Adam Whyte-Settlar"

Post by Adam Whyte-Settlar

Post by Adam Whyte-Settlar

Post by R.Peffers.
As I said before there are some Scots who would not know any other poet
than Robert Burns so here is a poem by another Scot.
Bonnie Wood O' Craigielea
How many know who wrote it?

I've no idea but it's brilliant.
Gonnae save me a googling?

Too late! I couldn't resist.
It's Robert Tannahill from Portsmouth folks.
I've also just discovered that the famous New Zealand tune 'Waltzing
Matilda' is also based on the tune to the above ditty.

What nonsense - it's based on an old Norse sledging song, "Min hund
har loppen - My dog has fleas"

There is an old English song with the same tune as Waltzin Matilda

"Soldier for Marlborough
Soldier for Marlborough
Who'll be a soldier for Marlborough with me
And they sang as the marched
Through the ancient streets of Rochester
Who'll be a soldier for Marlborough with me"


Allan

[Madra Dubh]

"The Highlander" <***@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:***@news...
<Snip>

Post by The Highlander
What nonsense - it's based on an old Norse sledging song, "Min hund
har loppen - My dog has fleas"

Thank you, Highlander.
You brightened up an otherwise drab day.............

[R.Peffers.]

Post by Adam Whyte-Settlar

Post by R.Peffers.
As I said before there are some Scots who would not know any other poet
than Robert Burns so here is a poem by another Scot.
Bonnie Wood O' Craigielea
How many know who wrote it?

I've no idea but it's brilliant.
Gonnae save me a googling?

Try Robert Tannahill in Google or get his biography here -
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/lennich/TANNABIO.HTM
Or better still - http://www.cyberscotia.com/tannahill/

[Ian Morrison]

Post by Craig Cockburn
The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

For an alternative view of the origin of West Lothian placenames
(including, at least, Broxburn, Linlithgow and Dechmont - Kinneil isn't
in West Lothian but it still isn't a Gaelic placename) see
http://www.cyberscotia.com/west-lothian-place-names/

As I've said before, to base theories of language distribution on
placename studies is to be build castles on quicksand.

--
Ian O.
http://www.iomorrison.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

[gnenian]

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Craig Cockburn
The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

For an alternative view of the origin of West Lothian placenames
(including, at least, Broxburn, Linlithgow and Dechmont - Kinneil isn't
in West Lothian but it still isn't a Gaelic placename) see
http://www.cyberscotia.com/west-lothian-place-names/
As I've said before, to base theories of language distribution on
placename studies is to be build castles on quicksand.
--
Ian O.
http://www.iomorrison.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

No one is interested in that trite. If one is Scots he is gaelic. There
is only the nationality. There are no fiefdoms or openings for chicken
molesters morrison. Piss off.

[gnenian]

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Craig Cockburn
The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

For an alternative view of the origin of West Lothian placenames
(including, at least, Broxburn, Linlithgow and Dechmont - Kinneil isn't
in West Lothian but it still isn't a Gaelic placename) see
http://www.cyberscotia.com/west-lothian-place-names/
As I've said before, to base theories of language distribution on
placename studies is to be build castles on quicksand.
--
Ian O.
http://www.iomorrison.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

No one is interested in that trite. If one is Scots he is gaelic. There
is only the nationality. There are no fiefdoms or openings for chicken
molesters morrison. Piss off.

[gnenian]

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Craig Cockburn
The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

For an alternative view of the origin of West Lothian placenames
(including, at least, Broxburn, Linlithgow and Dechmont - Kinneil isn't
in West Lothian but it still isn't a Gaelic placename) see
http://www.cyberscotia.com/west-lothian-place-names/
As I've said before, to base theories of language distribution on
placename studies is to be build castles on quicksand.
--
Ian O.
http://www.iomorrison.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

No one is interested in that trite. If one is Scots he is gaelic. There
is only the nationality. There are no fiefdoms or openings for chicken
molesters morrison. Piss off.

[Craig Cockburn]

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Craig Cockburn
The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

For an alternative view of the origin of West Lothian placenames
(including, at least, Broxburn, Linlithgow and Dechmont - Kinneil isn't
in West Lothian but it still isn't a Gaelic placename) see
http://www.cyberscotia.com/west-lothian-place-names/

Linlithgow isn't Gaelic which is why I highlighted the word Loch.
Kinneil is widely accepted as coming from Ceann an Fhàil, end of the
dyke (antonine wall)

Brox is from Broc = Badger.

[allan connochie]

Post by Craig Cockburn

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Craig Cockburn
The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

For an alternative view of the origin of West Lothian placenames
(including, at least, Broxburn, Linlithgow and Dechmont - Kinneil isn't
in West Lothian but it still isn't a Gaelic placename) see
http://www.cyberscotia.com/west-lothian-place-names/

Linlithgow isn't Gaelic which is why I highlighted the word Loch.
Kinneil is widely accepted as coming from Ceann an Fhàil, end of the
dyke (antonine wall)

As Ian says one has to be careful though. There's no argument that Gaelic
was significantly present in West Lothian. When talking about specific
points though, the fact the word 'loch' was used is not in itself any proof
of a significant Gaelic population. The word 'loch' is used all over
Scotland and is one of the words which passed into Scots from Gaelic. It is
even present in areas where were know there was virtually no, or at least
only a very insignificant, Gaelic population, like the south east and
Northern Isles.

Allan

[R.Peffers.]

Post by allan connochie

Post by Craig Cockburn

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Craig Cockburn
The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

For an alternative view of the origin of West Lothian placenames
(including, at least, Broxburn, Linlithgow and Dechmont - Kinneil isn't
in West Lothian but it still isn't a Gaelic placename) see
http://www.cyberscotia.com/west-lothian-place-names/

Linlithgow isn't Gaelic which is why I highlighted the word Loch.
Kinneil is widely accepted as coming from Ceann an Fhàil, end of the
dyke (antonine wall)

As Ian says one has to be careful though. There's no argument that Gaelic
was significantly present in West Lothian. When talking about specific
points though, the fact the word 'loch' was used is not in itself any proof
of a significant Gaelic population. The word 'loch' is used all over
Scotland and is one of the words which passed into Scots from Gaelic. It is
even present in areas where were know there was virtually no, or at least
only a very insignificant, Gaelic population, like the south east and
Northern Isles.
Allan

The only lakes I know about in Scotland are The Lake of Menteith and Raith
Lake, Unless anyone knows different.

[The Highlander]

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:08:04 +0100, "allan connochie"

Post by allan connochie

Post by Craig Cockburn

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Craig Cockburn
The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

For an alternative view of the origin of West Lothian placenames
(including, at least, Broxburn, Linlithgow and Dechmont - Kinneil isn't
in West Lothian but it still isn't a Gaelic placename) see
http://www.cyberscotia.com/west-lothian-place-names/

Linlithgow isn't Gaelic which is why I highlighted the word Loch.
Kinneil is widely accepted as coming from Ceann an Fhàil, end of the
dyke (antonine wall)

As Ian says one has to be careful though. There's no argument that Gaelic
was significantly present in West Lothian. When talking about specific
points though, the fact the word 'loch' was used is not in itself any proof
of a significant Gaelic population. The word 'loch' is used all over
Scotland and is one of the words which passed into Scots from Gaelic. It is
even present in areas where were know there was virtually no, or at least
only a very insignificant, Gaelic population, like the south east and
Northern Isles.
Allan

Actually, like many older words, loch's root is almost universal and
far older than Gaelic or Scots. It appears in several southern
European languages as lake, lac, lago and loch.


The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an pòst seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.
Ag amas air adhartas ann an Gàidhlig.
Aiming for advancement in the Gaelic.

[Ian Morrison]

Post by The Highlander
Actually, like many older words, loch's root is almost universal and
far older than Gaelic or Scots. It appears in several southern
European languages as lake, lac, lago and loch.

The same might also apply to "brock" for badger. According to
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=brock
the term was borrowed from either Old Irish (brocc) or Welsh (broch).

In the case of Broxburn, which is located in one of the heartlands of
the Britons, the latter seems a much more likely origin than Gaelic,
which was probably never spoken on a wide scale in the Lothians.

[R.Peffers.]

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by The Highlander
Actually, like many older words, loch's root is almost universal and
far older than Gaelic or Scots. It appears in several southern
European languages as lake, lac, lago and loch.

The same might also apply to "brock" for badger. According to
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=brock
the term was borrowed from either Old Irish (brocc) or Welsh (broch).
In the case of Broxburn, which is located in one of the heartlands of the
Britons, the latter seems a much more likely origin than Gaelic, which was
probably never spoken on a wide scale in the Lothians.
--
Ian O.
http://www.iomorrison.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

As it happens there are several Roman inspired place names around Broxburn.
On the road between Broxburn, via Uphall, to Pumpherston there is, "The
Roman Camps". Just North of Kirknewton there is, "The Camps", and while
there was a British Army camp there during WWII, "The Camps", predated that
by a very long way.

[N Tracey]

Post by The Highlander
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:08:04 +0100, "allan connochie"

Post by allan connochie
The word 'loch' is used all over
Scotland and is one of the words which passed into Scots from Gaelic.

Actually, like many older words, loch's root is almost universal and
far older than Gaelic or Scots. It appears in several southern
European languages as lake, lac, lago and loch.

But not in the Germanic languages. If we have a look at Dutch and Frisian,
the two closest living relatives to Anglo-Saxon, we'll see "meer" and
"mar" for lake (cognate with the Gaelic "muir" -- sea (and see is itself
cognate with the German and Danish "see" and "sø" for lake -- a
fascinating little curiousity to a geek like me)).

The evidence is strong for the Dutch/Frisian word as a tour of the Lake
District will attest (Windermere, Buttermere, Thirlemere, Grasmere).

The most likely origin for "lake" is the French "lac". It's possible that
the Lothian folk were saying "mere" up until 1066 and "lac" (or whatever
the Norman version was) became popular before Malcolm took Lothian for
Scotland. People who were used to saying "lac" might be more prone to
accepting "loch" (perhaps over the course of generations) than people who
said "mere".

Both Barbour and Blind Harry spell loch as "louch", which would not sound
that much like the Gaelic (Old Irish spelled it "loch" according to the
SMO) -- that ou is the same as in "out" which a lot of people reckon would
have been pronounced pretty similar to the modern pronunciation "oot".

So the idea that there was a similar word in Lowland Scots that slowly
moved towards the Gaelic is sound, from a brief look at least; but I'd
still class loch as a Gaelic word.

NT.

[Alan Smaill]

Post by N Tracey

Post by The Highlander
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:08:04 +0100, "allan connochie"

Post by allan connochie
The word 'loch' is used all over
Scotland and is one of the words which passed into Scots from Gaelic.

Actually, like many older words, loch's root is almost universal and
far older than Gaelic or Scots. It appears in several southern
European languages as lake, lac, lago and loch.

But not in the Germanic languages. If we have a look at Dutch and
Frisian, the two closest living relatives to Anglo-Saxon, we'll see
"meer" and "mar" for lake (cognate with the Gaelic "muir" -- sea (and
see is itself cognate with the German and Danish "see" and "sø" for
lake -- a fascinating little curiousity to a geek like me)).

What distinction are you making?
The root of the word (as opposed to the precise meaning) is
surely associated with Germanic languages, among others.

Would the land-locked Bodensee be called a sea if it were in
the UK? It might very well be called Loch Boden, I reckon.

And what about the Scots laigh, since we're here?

Post by N Tracey
The evidence is strong for the Dutch/Frisian word as a tour of the
Lake District will attest (Windermere, Buttermere, Thirlemere,
Grasmere).

Not the most obvious neuk for Dutch influence, though ...

Post by N Tracey
The most likely origin for "lake" is the French "lac".

based on what?

Post by N Tracey
It's possible
that the Lothian folk were saying "mere" up until 1066 and "lac" (or
whatever the Norman version was) became popular before Malcolm took
Lothian for Scotland. People who were used to saying "lac" might be
more prone to accepting "loch" (perhaps over the course of
generations) than people who said "mere".

There's a French word for pool, "une mare";
maybe it's the other way round?

As for lake/loch, maybe folk who said braw bricht moonlicht nicht
were more prone to keeping (rather than accepting) loch?
(compare licht/light).

Post by N Tracey
Both Barbour and Blind Harry spell loch as "louch", which would not
sound that much like the Gaelic (Old Irish spelled it "loch"
according to the SMO) -- that ou is the same as in "out" which a lot
of people reckon would have been pronounced pretty similar to the
modern pronunciation "oot".

And the Irish spelling "lough" is still around, another hint
of Gaelic roots, I reckon.

Post by N Tracey
So the idea that there was a similar word in Lowland Scots that slowly
moved towards the Gaelic is sound, from a brief look at least; but I'd
still class loch as a Gaelic word.

I agree that there were related words;
but that seemed to be what you were objecting to.

Post by N Tracey
NT.

[Custos Custodum]

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 12:40:57 +0100, Alan Smaill

Post by Alan Smaill

Post by N Tracey

Post by The Highlander
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:08:04 +0100, "allan connochie"

Post by allan connochie
The word 'loch' is used all over
Scotland and is one of the words which passed into Scots from Gaelic.

Actually, like many older words, loch's root is almost universal and
far older than Gaelic or Scots. It appears in several southern
European languages as lake, lac, lago and loch.

But not in the Germanic languages. If we have a look at Dutch and
Frisian, the two closest living relatives to Anglo-Saxon, we'll see
"meer" and "mar" for lake (cognate with the Gaelic "muir" -- sea (and
see is itself cognate with the German and Danish "see" and "sø" for
lake -- a fascinating little curiousity to a geek like me)).

What distinction are you making?
The root of the word (as opposed to the precise meaning) is
surely associated with Germanic languages, among others.
Would the land-locked Bodensee be called a sea if it were in
the UK?

Probably not. Remember that 'See' can be either masculine or feminine.
'Der See' (e.g. der Bodensee) means 'lake', whereas 'die See' (e.g.
die Ostsee) means 'sea'.

Post by Alan Smaill
It might very well be called Loch Boden, I reckon.

Or even Loch Constance.

[N Tracey]

Post by Alan Smaill

Post by N Tracey
But not in the Germanic languages. If we have a look at Dutch and
Frisian, the two closest living relatives to Anglo-Saxon, we'll see
"meer" and "mar" for lake (cognate with the Gaelic "muir" -- sea (and
see is itself cognate with the German and Danish "see" and "sø" for
lake -- a fascinating little curiousity to a geek like me)).

What distinction are you making?
The root of the word (as opposed to the precise meaning) is
surely associated with Germanic languages, among others.

Isn't it the case that common words such as these are the least likely to
change dramatically? I can't imagine calling a loch anything but a loch in
my whole life...

Post by Alan Smaill
And what about the Scots laigh, since we're here?

A mire or bog, according to my dictionary -- well that's another one to
add to the list of cognates then....

I wasn't aware of that one, but the Concise Scots Dictionary places it in
the 15th-17th centuries, which is pretty late compared to Barbour's
"louch".

Post by Alan Smaill

Post by N Tracey
The evidence is strong for the Dutch/Frisian word as a tour of the
Lake District will attest (Windermere, Buttermere, Thirlemere,
Grasmere).

Not the most obvious neuk for Dutch influence, though ...

Sorry -- I don't see what you're trying to say. (I wasn't trying to prove
Low East Germanic influence in general, just showing the evidence for
"lake" not being in the original Anglo-Saxon(s) of Britain.)

Post by Alan Smaill

Post by N Tracey
The most likely origin for "lake" is the French "lac".

based on what?

Post by N Tracey
It's possible
that the Lothian folk were saying "mere" up until 1066 and "lac" (or
whatever the Norman version was) became popular before Malcolm took
Lothian for Scotland. People who were used to saying "lac" might be
more prone to accepting "loch" (perhaps over the course of
generations) than people who said "mere".

There's a French word for pool, "une mare";
maybe it's the other way round?

Dagnabbit -- I've just discovered that The Lakes' name are supposedly from
12th century Norse so my whole "mere" argument has just collapsed. Shoot.
...
Saved by Google! http://home.comcast.net/~modean52/oeme_dictionaries.htm
gives "ísmere" for a frozen lake, but for "lake" it lists "pynd" with a
question mark (slightly similar to the Welsh).
http://www.mun.ca/Ansaxdat/vocab/wordlist.html puts "lake" as "mere".

So I wasn't just imagining it.

Post by Alan Smaill
As for lake/loch, maybe folk who said braw bricht moonlicht nicht
were more prone to keeping (rather than accepting) loch?
(compare licht/light).

Fair enough -- if we look at the English spelling of the Irish "loch" we
can see that the English "gh" was the same as our "ch" not *that* long
ago. But where is the source word.

Post by Alan Smaill

Post by N Tracey
Both Barbour and Blind Harry spell loch as "louch", which would not
sound that much like the Gaelic (Old Irish spelled it "loch"
according to the SMO) -- that ou is the same as in "out" which a lot
of people reckon would have been pronounced pretty similar to the
modern pronunciation "oot".

And the Irish spelling "lough" is still around, another hint
of Gaelic roots, I reckon.

That's an English rendering of the Irish (Gailge) "loch" -- it is *not* an
Irish word. I was thinking about that this morning -- is the Middle Scots
"louch" and the Middle English "lough" evidence that the "ou" sound wasn't
actually that much like "oo" after all, and actually more like the Gaelic
"o"? (Hmmm... back to the library, methinks.)

Post by Alan Smaill

Post by N Tracey
So the idea that there was a similar word in Lowland Scots that slowly
moved towards the Gaelic is sound, from a brief look at least; but I'd
still class loch as a Gaelic word.

I agree that there were related words;
but that seemed to be what you were objecting to.

What I'm trying to say is that I cannot imagine "loch" developing in Scots
independently of the Gaelic -- none of the source languages provide a
strong enough candidate for a suitable original word.

I believe that the word "loch" in Modern Scots/Scottish Standard English
is a borrowing from Gaelic, but I accept the possibility that the
existence of a similar word in one of Scots' other source languages may
have encouraged the uptake of the word.

There is a case to be heard that the favouring of a Gaelic term for an
everyday rural word such as "loch" suggests that the rural majority were
Gaels, even in much of the lowlands (although this would require more
evidence to support, of course).

N.

[The Highlander]

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 19:02:52 GMT, "N Tracey"

Post by N Tracey

Post by Alan Smaill

Post by N Tracey
But not in the Germanic languages. If we have a look at Dutch and
Frisian, the two closest living relatives to Anglo-Saxon, we'll see
"meer" and "mar" for lake (cognate with the Gaelic "muir" -- sea (and
see is itself cognate with the German and Danish "see" and "sø" for
lake -- a fascinating little curiousity to a geek like me)).

How can Gaelic muir be cognate with Dutch meer when the first means
sea and the second means lake?

Gaelic has at least three words that I can think of for sea - muir,
cuan and fairge. Ocean is generally rendered as cuan, while words like
maritime (mara) and sailor (maraiche) are usually derived from muir.
The word seoladair - a sailor - is an exact equivalent of the English
sailor, one who uses sails to move a ship. There is also fairgear, a
sailor.

However for lake Gaelic uses Loch, thereby marking it as one of the
southern European languages.

The word sø is used by Danish but is very close to Swedish insjö and
Norwegian innsjø. However Icelandic uses vatn and indeed there is a
large area of volcanic Iceland called Myvatn.

It is believed that whether a language uses mar or sea is a clue as to
how its original speakers approached Europe - north or south of the
Caspian sea.

Thus the southern route takers - and we know the Gaels came via the
southern route, use the mar word for sea. They could have used "Deniz"
(Turkish), except that the Turks came later, or "Thalassa" (Greek) or
even Bahr (Arabic). There is some evidence to suggest that the Welsh
may have come along the North African shore and crossed over to Iberia
(it's only eight miles from Africa to Spain).

Post by N Tracey

Post by Alan Smaill
What distinction are you making?
The root of the word (as opposed to the precise meaning) is
surely associated with Germanic languages, among others.

No way..

Post by N Tracey
Isn't it the case that common words such as these are the least likely to
change dramatically? I can't imagine calling a loch anything but a loch in
my whole life...

Post by Alan Smaill
And what about the Scots laigh, since we're here?

A mire or bog, according to my dictionary -- well that's another one to
add to the list of cognates then....
I wasn't aware of that one, but the Concise Scots Dictionary places it in
the 15th-17th centuries, which is pretty late compared to Barbour's
"louch".

Post by Alan Smaill

Post by N Tracey
The evidence is strong for the Dutch/Frisian word as a tour of the
Lake District will attest (Windermere, Buttermere, Thirlemere,
Grasmere).

Not the most obvious neuk for Dutch influence, though ...

Sorry -- I don't see what you're trying to say. (I wasn't trying to prove
Low East Germanic influence in general, just showing the evidence for
"lake" not being in the original Anglo-Saxon(s) of Britain.)

Post by Alan Smaill

Post by N Tracey
The most likely origin for "lake" is the French "lac".

based on what?

Post by N Tracey
It's possible
that the Lothian folk were saying "mere" up until 1066 and "lac" (or
whatever the Norman version was) became popular before Malcolm took
Lothian for Scotland. People who were used to saying "lac" might be
more prone to accepting "loch" (perhaps over the course of
generations) than people who said "mere".

There's a French word for pool, "une mare";
maybe it's the other way round?

Dagnabbit -- I've just discovered that The Lakes' name are supposedly from
12th century Norse so my whole "mere" argument has just collapsed. Shoot.
...
Saved by Google! http://home.comcast.net/~modean52/oeme_dictionaries.htm
gives "ísmere" for a frozen lake, but for "lake" it lists "pynd" with a
question mark (slightly similar to the Welsh).
http://www.mun.ca/Ansaxdat/vocab/wordlist.html puts "lake" as "mere".
So I wasn't just imagining it.

Post by Alan Smaill
As for lake/loch, maybe folk who said braw bricht moonlicht nicht
were more prone to keeping (rather than accepting) loch?
(compare licht/light).

Fair enough -- if we look at the English spelling of the Irish "loch" we
can see that the English "gh" was the same as our "ch" not *that* long
ago. But where is the source word.

Post by Alan Smaill

Post by N Tracey
Both Barbour and Blind Harry spell loch as "louch", which would not
sound that much like the Gaelic (Old Irish spelled it "loch"
according to the SMO) -- that ou is the same as in "out" which a lot
of people reckon would have been pronounced pretty similar to the
modern pronunciation "oot".

And the Irish spelling "lough" is still around, another hint
of Gaelic roots, I reckon.

That's an English rendering of the Irish (Gailge) "loch" -- it is *not* an
Irish word. I was thinking about that this morning -- is the Middle Scots
"louch" and the Middle English "lough" evidence that the "ou" sound wasn't
actually that much like "oo" after all, and actually more like the Gaelic
"o"? (Hmmm... back to the library, methinks.)

Post by Alan Smaill

Post by N Tracey
So the idea that there was a similar word in Lowland Scots that slowly
moved towards the Gaelic is sound, from a brief look at least; but I'd
still class loch as a Gaelic word.

I agree that there were related words;
but that seemed to be what you were objecting to.

What I'm trying to say is that I cannot imagine "loch" developing in Scots
independently of the Gaelic -- none of the source languages provide a
strong enough candidate for a suitable original word.
I believe that the word "loch" in Modern Scots/Scottish Standard English
is a borrowing from Gaelic, but I accept the possibility that the
existence of a similar word in one of Scots' other source languages may
have encouraged the uptake of the word.
There is a case to be heard that the favouring of a Gaelic term for an
everyday rural word such as "loch" suggests that the rural majority were
Gaels, even in much of the lowlands (although this would require more
evidence to support, of course).

Well that's no surprise - there are Gaelic placenames throughout
Scotland, including areas like the Borders, Galloway and
Aberdeenshire. Indeed, the Gaels of Argyll still regard Galloway as
part of their Gaidhealtachd (a region where Gaelic is spoken.)

Post by N Tracey
N.

The linguistic evidence is clear - all the south Euopean languages use
a variation of mar for the sea and a variation of lac for a lake.
German and English seem to have adopted them all, from mere/meer/lake
to sea/see, etc. There are people movement theories regarding this but
nothing concrete - yet!





The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an pòst seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.
Ag amas air adhartas ann an Gàidhlig.
Aiming for advancement in the Gaelic.

[Madra Dubh]

Post by Craig Cockburn

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Craig Cockburn
The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

For an alternative view of the origin of West Lothian placenames
(including, at least, Broxburn, Linlithgow and Dechmont - Kinneil isn't
in West Lothian but it still isn't a Gaelic placename) see
http://www.cyberscotia.com/west-lothian-place-names/

Linlithgow isn't Gaelic which is why I highlighted the word Loch.
Kinneil is widely accepted as coming from Ceann an Fhàil, end of the dyke
(antonine wall)
Brox is from Broc = Badger.

"Ceann" is "Head" in the Irish Gaelic (or so I seem to remember).

[m***@eircom.net]

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by Craig Cockburn

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Craig Cockburn
The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

For an alternative view of the origin of West Lothian placenames
(including, at least, Broxburn, Linlithgow and Dechmont - Kinneil isn't
in West Lothian but it still isn't a Gaelic placename) see
http://www.cyberscotia.com/west-lothian-place-names/

Linlithgow isn't Gaelic which is why I highlighted the word Loch.
Kinneil is widely accepted as coming from Ceann an Fhàil, end of the dyke
(antonine wall)
Brox is from Broc = Badger.

"Ceann" is "Head" in the Irish Gaelic (or so I seem to remember).

Yes, but it can also mean the top, end, finish etc.

Mike

[Madra Dubh]

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by Craig Cockburn

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Craig Cockburn
The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

For an alternative view of the origin of West Lothian placenames
(including, at least, Broxburn, Linlithgow and Dechmont - Kinneil isn't
in West Lothian but it still isn't a Gaelic placename) see
http://www.cyberscotia.com/west-lothian-place-names/

Linlithgow isn't Gaelic which is why I highlighted the word Loch.
Kinneil is widely accepted as coming from Ceann an Fhàil, end of the dyke
(antonine wall)
Brox is from Broc = Badger.

"Ceann" is "Head" in the Irish Gaelic (or so I seem to remember).

Yes, but it can also mean the top, end, finish etc.
***************

Hey, Mike.
How goes it?

[The Highlander]

Post by m***@eircom.net

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by Craig Cockburn

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Craig Cockburn
The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

For an alternative view of the origin of West Lothian placenames
(including, at least, Broxburn, Linlithgow and Dechmont - Kinneil isn't
in West Lothian but it still isn't a Gaelic placename) see
http://www.cyberscotia.com/west-lothian-place-names/

Linlithgow isn't Gaelic which is why I highlighted the word Loch.
Kinneil is widely accepted as coming from Ceann an Fh=E0il, end of the =

dyke

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by Craig Cockburn
(antonine wall)
Brox is from Broc =3D Badger.

"Ceann" is "Head" in the Irish Gaelic (or so I seem to remember).

Yes, but it can also mean the top, end, finish etc.

In that respect it's not unlike English and many other languages.

Post by m***@eircom.net
Mike

The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an pòst seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.
Ag amas air adhartas ann an Gàidhlig.
Aiming for advancement in the Gaelic.

[The Highlander]

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:54:57 GMT, "Madra Dubh"

Post by Madra Dubh

Post by Craig Cockburn

Post by Ian Morrison

Post by Craig Cockburn
The Lowlands were Gaelic speaking. From West Lothian we have
Linlithgow LOCH, Kinneil, Bangour, Broxburn, Inchgarvie, Dalmeny and
Dechmont.

For an alternative view of the origin of West Lothian placenames
(including, at least, Broxburn, Linlithgow and Dechmont - Kinneil isn't
in West Lothian but it still isn't a Gaelic placename) see
http://www.cyberscotia.com/west-lothian-place-names/

Linlithgow isn't Gaelic which is why I highlighted the word Loch.
Kinneil is widely accepted as coming from Ceann an Fhàil, end of the dyke
(antonine wall)
Brox is from Broc = Badger.

"Ceann" is "Head" in the Irish Gaelic (or so I seem to remember).

Same word in Scots Gaelic. They're dialects of each other.
The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an pòst seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.
Ag amas air adhartas ann an Gàidhlig.
Aiming for advancement in the Gaelic.

[The Highlander]

Post by i***@blueyonder.co.uk
How can FLOWER OF SCOTLAND be nationalistic when it is written about
Bonnie Prince Charlie and the Jacobite (almost wrote sodomite there)
rebellion,which was not an English v Scottish thing but a sort of cross
border civil war.
The British army,containing a lot of lowland protestant Scots beat a
mostly RC highland army with German mercenaries.
So along with being a crap song Flower Of Scotland is not even a
traditional Scottish song.
Scotland The Brave has always been used for sporting occasions
involving Scottish teams,Land Of Hope And Glory is used by England at
the Commonwealth Games,think Northern Ireland uses Danny Boy.
When I used to go to Scotland v England football matches 20-30 years
ago nearly all the crowd used to chant "IF YOU HATE THE ENGLISH
BASTARDS CLAP YOU HANDS",perhaps this could be the new anthem for our
mature country?

Ah, but already we have a potential problem, as the version I know
goes "If you hate the fucking English clap your hands" which frankly I
prefer for its guts-cleansing use of the F* word!

Also we need three more lines so we have at least one verse. I foresee
a distinct problem with rhymes - hands, bands? brands? stands?
strands? glands? Actually. I'm quite cheered by the sight of the word
"glands" - I reckon I can produce something fairly meaningful with
that word available to me!

Perhaps your line, repeated three times, can be the chorus, while mine
would be a sort of tenor solo verse...? I presume we are retaining the
original "Coming round the Mountain" tune? with bagpipe twiddly bits
to give it that authentic Scots sound

Just imagine what an international sensation our new anthem will be!

I can see definite possibilities for a new image for Scotland here,
especially if the Scottish national anthem is only played but not sung
on official occasions. The tension of needing to burst into song would
be almost unbearable; both for visitors and hosts! I forecast that it
would hit the Top Ten of anthems without even trying.


The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an pòst seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.
Ag amas air adhartas ann an Gàidhlig.
Aiming for advancement in the Gaelic.

[Colin Will]

Post by R.Peffers.
The use of, "Scotland The Brave", at the games has raised, once more, the
question of the Scottish National Anthem. Jack McConnell said he liked,
"Highland Cathedral", but quickly said he was not putting it forward as a
Scottish Anthem. One would hope not, for nice bit of music as it is, it
hardly represents all Scotland being Highlands only. Perhaps renamed
appropriately and with lyrics added it would be right. People of a
Unionist bent, both politically and of the sectarian variety, don't like,
"Flowers Of Scotland". I see little wrong with "Scots Wha Hae", except for
the way it is often played like a dirge. Though the same could be said for
most other contenders. This playing of anthems like a dirge is not the
fault of the music but of the musicians who play them. As to the critics
of, "Flowers Of Scotland", who claim the song is rather too nationalistic
and bloodthirsty, I would ask if they had considered the words of the
French, "Marseilles", that is often considered to be the best anthem of
all.
--
Robert Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
(When replying take pam away from peffers.
Scotland).

I was talking to Ronald Stevenson about this at the 'Cencrastus Wake' on
Friday, and he said that some time in the 1950's Francis George Scott had
set out to write a Scottish anthem. The proposal was that he would write the
music, Hugh MacDiarmid the verse, and Sorley Maclean the chorus (in Gaelic).
The words didn't get written, but the music is stirring and appropriate,
according to Ronald. I don't know if anyone has recorded it, but I'd be
interested to know if anyone has heard it. (Remarkable man, Ronald, by the
way).

Colin Will