Wiki etiquette

[Bob Pendleton]

http://www.libsdl.org/cgi/docwiki.cgi/FrontPage

Last night someone changed the name of a link. I'm sure they thought
they were being helpful because the link name was misspelled. The basic
idea of a wiki is that when you see something wrong or that can be
improved, you don't ask, you just fix it.

The trouble is that when you change the spelling of a link the page it
is linking to "goes away". It can no longer be reached and the wiki is
waiting for you to create a new page with the new name.

From now on, before you change the contents of a link open the page it

links to in a different tab on your browser and change the page name to
match the new link name. (The rename function is now available at the
bottom of each page.) Also and this is **VERY VERY IMPORTANT** use the
search function to find everywhere that the page is linked to and update
those links too.

OTOH, when you are creating new links, spell check them before you
create the pages they link to. To make it easy to do that, lets use
links of the form ["this is a link"] rather than using the standard wiki
words that look like ThisIsALink. Spelling checkers work pretty well on
phrases but not so well on camel case :-)

Bob Pendleton

P.S.

There are several helpful people currently adding pages to the
documentation wiki. The more help we get the faster it will be done.

http://www.libsdl.org/cgi/docwiki.cgi/FrontPage

[Stephane Marchesin]

Post by Bob Pendleton
http://www.libsdl.org/cgi/docwiki.cgi/FrontPage
Last night someone changed the name of a link. I'm sure they thought
they were being helpful because the link name was misspelled. The basic
idea of a wiki is that when you see something wrong or that can be
improved, you don't ask, you just fix it.
The trouble is that when you change the spelling of a link the page it
is linking to "goes away". It can no longer be reached and the wiki is
waiting for you to create a new page with the new name.

From now on, before you change the contents of a link open the page it

links to in a different tab on your browser and change the page name to
match the new link name. (The rename function is now available at the
bottom of each page.) Also and this is **VERY VERY IMPORTANT** use the
search function to find everywhere that the page is linked to and update
those links too.
OTOH, when you are creating new links, spell check them before you
create the pages they link to. To make it easy to do that, lets use
links of the form ["this is a link"] rather than using the standard wiki
words that look like ThisIsALink. Spelling checkers work pretty well on
phrases but not so well on camel case :-)

So, are we allowed to add new stuff yet ? I was thinking of writing
something about getting good performance.

Btw, while you're talking about etiquette, I'm not sure if it's very
nice to show the IPs of the people who edit the pages.

Stephane

[Donny Viszneki]

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Btw, while you're talking about etiquette, I'm not sure if it's very
nice to show the IPs of the people who edit the pages.

Why?

[Bob Pendleton]

Post by Stephane Marchesin

Post by Bob Pendleton
http://www.libsdl.org/cgi/docwiki.cgi/FrontPage
Last night someone changed the name of a link. I'm sure they thought
they were being helpful because the link name was misspelled. The basic
idea of a wiki is that when you see something wrong or that can be
improved, you don't ask, you just fix it.
The trouble is that when you change the spelling of a link the page it
is linking to "goes away". It can no longer be reached and the wiki is
waiting for you to create a new page with the new name.

From now on, before you change the contents of a link open the page it

links to in a different tab on your browser and change the page name to
match the new link name. (The rename function is now available at the
bottom of each page.) Also and this is **VERY VERY IMPORTANT** use the
search function to find everywhere that the page is linked to and update
those links too.
OTOH, when you are creating new links, spell check them before you
create the pages they link to. To make it easy to do that, lets use
links of the form ["this is a link"] rather than using the standard wiki
words that look like ThisIsALink. Spelling checkers work pretty well on
phrases but not so well on camel case :-)

So, are we allowed to add new stuff yet ? I was thinking of writing
something about getting good performance.

Good question. The original idea was to move the existing documentation
to a wiki so that it can be maintained by the community. I don't know
how Sam feels about having other material on the wiki.

It seems to me that there is no reason why you can't add material to the
FAQ, where your material would fit very well, you could put it under the
examples page, or we can add a tutorial page.

If Sam objects to having other material on the wiki then we can move it
to another wiki. (It would be very welcome on gameprogrammer.com/gpwiki)

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Btw, while you're talking about etiquette, I'm not sure if it's very
nice to show the IPs of the people who edit the pages.

I don't understand why you consider that a bad thing? Please educate me.

If you register on the site, then (AFAIK) it only lists your user name.

Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Stephane
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

[LesHauSsebons]

1/ Is afaik for as far as i know ? i just guessed ... I am not english
( just like otoh must be on the other hand )

2/ is the sdl wiki recent ? I haven't been here for a while , i've never
noticed it


thx

les.

Post by Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin

Post by Bob Pendleton
http://www.libsdl.org/cgi/docwiki.cgi/FrontPage
Last night someone changed the name of a link. I'm sure they thought
they were being helpful because the link name was misspelled. The basic
idea of a wiki is that when you see something wrong or that can be
improved, you don't ask, you just fix it.
The trouble is that when you change the spelling of a link the page it
is linking to "goes away". It can no longer be reached and the wiki is
waiting for you to create a new page with the new name.

From now on, before you change the contents of a link open the page it

links to in a different tab on your browser and change the page name to
match the new link name. (The rename function is now available at the
bottom of each page.) Also and this is **VERY VERY IMPORTANT** use the
search function to find everywhere that the page is linked to and update
those links too.
OTOH, when you are creating new links, spell check them before you
create the pages they link to. To make it easy to do that, lets use
links of the form ["this is a link"] rather than using the standard wiki
words that look like ThisIsALink. Spelling checkers work pretty well on
phrases but not so well on camel case :-)

So, are we allowed to add new stuff yet ? I was thinking of writing
something about getting good performance.

Good question. The original idea was to move the existing documentation
to a wiki so that it can be maintained by the community. I don't know
how Sam feels about having other material on the wiki.
It seems to me that there is no reason why you can't add material to the
FAQ, where your material would fit very well, you could put it under the
examples page, or we can add a tutorial page.
If Sam objects to having other material on the wiki then we can move it
to another wiki. (It would be very welcome on gameprogrammer.com/gpwiki)

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Btw, while you're talking about etiquette, I'm not sure if it's very
nice to show the IPs of the people who edit the pages.

I don't understand why you consider that a bad thing? Please educate me.
If you register on the site, then (AFAIK) it only lists your user name.
Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Stephane
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

[Florian Hufsky]

1. yes
2. it's under construction

Post by LesHauSsebons
1/ Is afaik for as far as i know ? i just guessed ... I am not english
( just like otoh must be on the other hand )
2/ is the sdl wiki recent ? I haven't been here for a while , i've never
noticed it
thx
les.

Post by Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin

Post by Bob Pendleton
http://www.libsdl.org/cgi/docwiki.cgi/FrontPage
Last night someone changed the name of a link. I'm sure they thought
they were being helpful because the link name was misspelled. The basic
idea of a wiki is that when you see something wrong or that can be
improved, you don't ask, you just fix it.
The trouble is that when you change the spelling of a link the page it
is linking to "goes away". It can no longer be reached and the wiki is
waiting for you to create a new page with the new name.

From now on, before you change the contents of a link open the page it

links to in a different tab on your browser and change the page name to
match the new link name. (The rename function is now available at the
bottom of each page.) Also and this is **VERY VERY IMPORTANT** use the
search function to find everywhere that the page is linked to and update
those links too.
OTOH, when you are creating new links, spell check them before you
create the pages they link to. To make it easy to do that, lets use
links of the form ["this is a link"] rather than using the standard wiki
words that look like ThisIsALink. Spelling checkers work pretty well on
phrases but not so well on camel case :-)

So, are we allowed to add new stuff yet ? I was thinking of writing
something about getting good performance.

Good question. The original idea was to move the existing documentation
to a wiki so that it can be maintained by the community. I don't know
how Sam feels about having other material on the wiki.
It seems to me that there is no reason why you can't add material to the
FAQ, where your material would fit very well, you could put it under the
examples page, or we can add a tutorial page.
If Sam objects to having other material on the wiki then we can move it
to another wiki. (It would be very welcome on gameprogrammer.com/gpwiki)

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Btw, while you're talking about etiquette, I'm not sure if it's very
nice to show the IPs of the people who edit the pages.

I don't understand why you consider that a bad thing? Please educate me.
If you register on the site, then (AFAIK) it only lists your user name.
Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Stephane
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

[Bob Pendleton]

Post by LesHauSsebons
1/ Is afaik for as far as i know ?

Correct.

Post by LesHauSsebons
i just guessed ... I am not english

Neither am I. My understanding is that most English speakers are not
English. :-)

Post by LesHauSsebons
( just like otoh must be on the other hand )
2/ is the sdl wiki recent ? I haven't been here for a while , i've never
noticed it

Yep, just brought it up this week.

Bob Pendleton

Post by LesHauSsebons
thx
les.

Post by Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin

Post by Bob Pendleton
http://www.libsdl.org/cgi/docwiki.cgi/FrontPage
Last night someone changed the name of a link. I'm sure they thought
they were being helpful because the link name was misspelled. The basic
idea of a wiki is that when you see something wrong or that can be
improved, you don't ask, you just fix it.
The trouble is that when you change the spelling of a link the page it
is linking to "goes away". It can no longer be reached and the wiki is
waiting for you to create a new page with the new name.

From now on, before you change the contents of a link open the page it

links to in a different tab on your browser and change the page name to
match the new link name. (The rename function is now available at the
bottom of each page.) Also and this is **VERY VERY IMPORTANT** use the
search function to find everywhere that the page is linked to and update
those links too.
OTOH, when you are creating new links, spell check them before you
create the pages they link to. To make it easy to do that, lets use
links of the form ["this is a link"] rather than using the standard wiki
words that look like ThisIsALink. Spelling checkers work pretty well on
phrases but not so well on camel case :-)

So, are we allowed to add new stuff yet ? I was thinking of writing
something about getting good performance.

Good question. The original idea was to move the existing documentation
to a wiki so that it can be maintained by the community. I don't know
how Sam feels about having other material on the wiki.
It seems to me that there is no reason why you can't add material to the
FAQ, where your material would fit very well, you could put it under the
examples page, or we can add a tutorial page.
If Sam objects to having other material on the wiki then we can move it
to another wiki. (It would be very welcome on gameprogrammer.com/gpwiki)

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Btw, while you're talking about etiquette, I'm not sure if it's very
nice to show the IPs of the people who edit the pages.

I don't understand why you consider that a bad thing? Please educate me.
If you register on the site, then (AFAIK) it only lists your user name.
Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Stephane
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

[Marco Kraus]

Post by Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
So, are we allowed to add new stuff yet ? I was thinking of writing
something about getting good performance.

Good question. The original idea was to move the existing documentation
to a wiki so that it can be maintained by the community. I don't know
how Sam feels about having other material on the wiki.
It seems to me that there is no reason why you can't add material to the
FAQ, where your material would fit very well, you could put it under the
examples page, or we can add a tutorial page.

Is there a special licence for the documentation (FDL) ?

Ciao

[Bob Pendleton]

Post by Marco Kraus

Post by Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
So, are we allowed to add new stuff yet ? I was thinking of writing
something about getting good performance.

Good question. The original idea was to move the existing documentation
to a wiki so that it can be maintained by the community. I don't know
how Sam feels about having other material on the wiki.
It seems to me that there is no reason why you can't add material to the
FAQ, where your material would fit very well, you could put it under the
examples page, or we can add a tutorial page.

Is there a special licence for the documentation (FDL) ?

Good question. I have no idea what the answer is. Sam?

Bob Pendleton

Post by Marco Kraus
Ciao

[Stephane Marchesin]

Post by Bob Pendleton
Good question. The original idea was to move the existing documentation
to a wiki so that it can be maintained by the community. I don't know
how Sam feels about having other material on the wiki.
It seems to me that there is no reason why you can't add material to the
FAQ, where your material would fit very well, you could put it under the
examples page, or we can add a tutorial page.

Not sure if everything would fit under a "tutorial" banner. I also have
a draft of a "porting SDL" document around.

Post by Bob Pendleton
If Sam objects to having other material on the wiki then we can move it
to another wiki. (It would be very welcome on gameprogrammer.com/gpwiki)

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Btw, while you're talking about etiquette, I'm not sure if it's very
nice to show the IPs of the people who edit the pages.

I don't understand why you consider that a bad thing? Please educate me.
If you register on the site, then (AFAIK) it only lists your user name.

Yup, that's exactly my concern. Registered users also have their ip
address listed (appears as a tooltip for me, so it's probably in the
source of the page).

Stephane

[Donny Viszneki]

Post by Stephane Marchesin

Post by Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Btw, while you're talking about etiquette, I'm not sure if it's very
nice to show the IPs of the people who edit the pages.

I don't understand why you consider that a bad thing? Please educate me.
If you register on the site, then (AFAIK) it only lists your user name.

Yup, that's exactly my concern. Registered users also have their ip
address listed (appears as a tooltip for me, so it's probably in the
source of the page).
Stephane

Again, could someone please state the nature of their objection to
showing your IP address?

I once had a website running that in the lower left hand corner showed
your IP address for your convenience (ever been to whatsmyip.com? a
great website to have around whenever all you want to know is what your
ip address is to the rest of the internet.) Some weirdo emailed me
telling me that he didn't think people would like being "tracked."

What a whacko.

Post by Stephane Marchesin
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

- Donny Viszneki

[Drake Wilson]

Post by Donny Viszneki
Again, could someone please state the nature of their objection to
showing your IP address?

Not your host, the hosts of the other people who edited the pages.
Look at RecentChanges again. The <span title="..."> causes the
hostname/IP to appear in the source of the document, as well as being
shown in many browsers on extended mouse-over.

I don't have any personal objection to this. However, other arbitrary
people being able to see whence your actions came host-wise seems to
be considered debatable privacy practice in many places.

---> Drake Wilson

[Donny Viszneki]

Post by Drake Wilson

Post by Donny Viszneki
Again, could someone please state the nature of their objection to
showing your IP address?

Not your host, the hosts of the other people who edited the pages.

I should have been more clear, especially with my story about the guy
who was bothered that he could see his own IP address, but I won't
digress again..

I understand what the circumstances are. Hey guess what, my IP address
is 136.142.21.65, oh no my privacy has been violated somehow. Or worse,
someone will hack my Windows box, wait, I'm not running Winblows.

Seriously people, there is no shortage of IP addresses out there. If
you're looking to hack someone's machine or do ANY other malicious
activity against a random computer, there are thousands of times
greater methods for finding future victims' ip addresses.

I think the sdl doc wiki should adopt this friendly edict: if you
object to having your IP address shown to the public, I object to you
contributing to the sdl doc wiki.

Post by Drake Wilson
Look at RecentChanges again. The <span title="..."> causes the
hostname/IP to appear in the source of the document, as well as being
shown in many browsers on extended mouse-over.
I don't have any personal objection to this. However, other arbitrary
people being able to see whence your actions came host-wise seems to
be considered debatable privacy practice in many places.
---> Drake Wilson
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

- Donny Viszneki

[Patrick McFarland]

Although this is very offtopic, if someone was really worried about
people tracking them, they could always use tor (
http://www.freehaven.net/tor/ ) which allows you to do
socks-compatible tcp traffic through a (mostly) anonymous network.
Even IRC works through it.

Post by Donny Viszneki

Post by Drake Wilson

Post by Donny Viszneki
Again, could someone please state the nature of their objection to
showing your IP address?

Not your host, the hosts of the other people who edited the pages.

I should have been more clear, especially with my story about the guy
who was bothered that he could see his own IP address, but I won't
digress again..
I understand what the circumstances are. Hey guess what, my IP address
is 136.142.21.65, oh no my privacy has been violated somehow. Or worse,
someone will hack my Windows box, wait, I'm not running Winblows.
Seriously people, there is no shortage of IP addresses out there. If
you're looking to hack someone's machine or do ANY other malicious
activity against a random computer, there are thousands of times
greater methods for finding future victims' ip addresses.
I think the sdl doc wiki should adopt this friendly edict: if you
object to having your IP address shown to the public, I object to you
contributing to the sdl doc wiki.

Post by Drake Wilson
Look at RecentChanges again. The <span title="..."> causes the
hostname/IP to appear in the source of the document, as well as being
shown in many browsers on extended mouse-over.
I don't have any personal objection to this. However, other arbitrary
people being able to see whence your actions came host-wise seems to
be considered debatable privacy practice in many places.
---> Drake Wilson
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

- Donny Viszneki
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

[Johannes Bauer]

Post by Donny Viszneki
I understand what the circumstances are. Hey guess what, my IP address
is 136.142.21.65, oh no my privacy has been violated somehow. Or worse,
someone will hack my Windows box, wait, I'm not running Winblows.

If you choose in full conciousness to publicly show your IP address to
other people, fine, that's your choice. If you show the IPs of other
people without them knowing prior to their posting this is not okay.

Post by Donny Viszneki
Seriously people, there is no shortage of IP addresses out there.

Seriously, Donny, there _is_ a shortage of IP addresses out there. Have
a look at IPv6. Jeez.

Post by Donny Viszneki
If
you're looking to hack someone's machine or do ANY other malicious
activity against a random computer, there are thousands of times greater
methods for finding future victims' ip addresses.

That's not what its (primarily) about. It's about making information
about some poeple publicly available which they might not want to be
publicly available.

Post by Donny Viszneki
I think the sdl doc wiki should adopt this friendly edict: if you object
to having your IP address shown to the public, I object to you
contributing to the sdl doc wiki.

Awesome! Man, you are so very tolerant and understanding...

Greetings,
Joe

[Tom Spilman]

Post by Johannes Bauer
That's not what its (primarily) about. It's about making
information about some poeple publicly available which they
might not want to be publicly available.

Then don't contribute to the wiki if your concerned about it. Geez... can
this thread die already?

Tom

Post by Johannes Bauer
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Johannes Bauer
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 4:44 AM
To: A list for developers using the SDL library. (includes
SDL-announce)
Subject: Re: [SDL] Wiki etiquette

Post by Donny Viszneki
I understand what the circumstances are. Hey guess what, my

IP address

Post by Donny Viszneki
is 136.142.21.65, oh no my privacy has been violated somehow. Or
worse, someone will hack my Windows box, wait, I'm not

running Winblows.
If you choose in full conciousness to publicly show your IP
address to other people, fine, that's your choice. If you
show the IPs of other people without them knowing prior to
their posting this is not okay.

Post by Donny Viszneki
Seriously people, there is no shortage of IP addresses out there.

Seriously, Donny, there _is_ a shortage of IP addresses out
there. Have a look at IPv6. Jeez.

Post by Donny Viszneki
If
you're looking to hack someone's machine or do ANY other malicious
activity against a random computer, there are thousands of times
greater methods for finding future victims' ip addresses.

That's not what its (primarily) about. It's about making
information about some poeple publicly available which they
might not want to be publicly available.

Post by Donny Viszneki
I think the sdl doc wiki should adopt this friendly edict: if you
object to having your IP address shown to the public, I

object to you

Post by Donny Viszneki
contributing to the sdl doc wiki.

Awesome! Man, you are so very tolerant and understanding...
Greetings,
Joe
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

[Ryan Hanlon]

Post by Tom Spilman

Post by Johannes Bauer
That's not what its (primarily) about. It's about making
information about some poeple publicly available which they
might not want to be publicly available.

Then don't contribute to the wiki if your concerned about it. Geez... can
this thread die already?
Tom

I'm also surprised that this thread keeps coming up on so many different
lists, and that so many people still don't get it, but "Then don't
contribute" is not an acceptable answer. There is a very simple reason
for not allowing the wiki to show authors' IPs to all visitors: a) IPs
are identifying information, and b) showing them is not necessary for
the wiki to operate as intended. Those 2 things together say that there
is no justification for showing IPs to non-admins, and common sense says
that if there's an easy way to stop doing it, it's the right thing to
do. If the wiki can't be configured that way, we'll all just consider
it a minor weakness in the system and take whatever care we feel we
need. But because it's just a minor weakness is no justification for
not fixing it.

If this wiki was intended to have a requirement that you can't
contribute unless you identify your location, or if the design intended
for all users to know the locations of all other users, then it would
make perfect sense to leave IPs visible. But just because someone
doesn't understand or care about the privacy issues that *are* present
is no reason they shouldn't be fixed wherever possible for those who do
care.

For clarity, the issue isn't that people can see your IP address. It's
that people don't need to. Your IP has nothing to do with the content
you contribute to the documentation as far as non-admins are concerned,
so it shouldn't be tied to it. It's just good design. A lot of people
who are concerned with their privacy understand the importance of
keeping separate information about themselves separate. It's not about
hiding individual pieces of information. No single piece of information
about someone is worth all that much; it's the combinations of collected
data that makes it easier to invade people's privacy. If some people
want to practice good personal security, and it's not terribly
inconvenient for the site admins, let them. And don't tell them they
can't contribute just because you don't yet understand the principles
behind what they want.

Ryan

Post by Tom Spilman

Post by Johannes Bauer
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Johannes Bauer
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 4:44 AM
To: A list for developers using the SDL library. (includes
SDL-announce)
Subject: Re: [SDL] Wiki etiquette

Post by Donny Viszneki
I understand what the circumstances are. Hey guess what, my

IP address

Post by Donny Viszneki
is 136.142.21.65, oh no my privacy has been violated somehow. Or
worse, someone will hack my Windows box, wait, I'm not

running Winblows.
If you choose in full conciousness to publicly show your IP
address to other people, fine, that's your choice. If you
show the IPs of other people without them knowing prior to
their posting this is not okay.

Post by Donny Viszneki
Seriously people, there is no shortage of IP addresses out there.

Seriously, Donny, there _is_ a shortage of IP addresses out
there. Have a look at IPv6. Jeez.

Post by Donny Viszneki
If
you're looking to hack someone's machine or do ANY other malicious
activity against a random computer, there are thousands of times
greater methods for finding future victims' ip addresses.

That's not what its (primarily) about. It's about making
information about some poeple publicly available which they
might not want to be publicly available.

Post by Donny Viszneki
I think the sdl doc wiki should adopt this friendly edict: if you
object to having your IP address shown to the public, I

object to you

Post by Donny Viszneki
contributing to the sdl doc wiki.

Awesome! Man, you are so very tolerant and understanding...
Greetings,
Joe
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

[Tom Spilman]

And don't tell them they can't contribute just because you don't
yet understand the principles behind what they want.

I never said can't and I very much understand why they're concerned. I
don't agree that any effort to modify the MoinMoin wiki engine should be
taken when there are easy solutions like 1) not contributing or 2) set your
username before contributing. I don't seem to remember any wiki engine that
doesn't show IPs and/or hostnames for unregistered users, so I take that as
meaning it isn't a top priority to wiki developers.

I suggest as Bob has to talk to the MoinMoin developers and get a feature
request in.

Bob: What about just disabling anonymous users in the wiki (I assume
MoinMoin can do that)? That way you must register to contribute and no IPs
are shown.

Tom

-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Ryan Hanlon
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [SDL] Wiki etiquette

Post by Tom Spilman

Post by Johannes Bauer
That's not what its (primarily) about. It's about making

information

Post by Tom Spilman

Post by Johannes Bauer
about some poeple publicly available which they might not

want to be

Post by Tom Spilman

Post by Johannes Bauer
publicly available.

Then don't contribute to the wiki if your concerned about

it. Geez...

Post by Tom Spilman
can this thread die already?
Tom

I'm also surprised that this thread keeps coming up on so
many different lists, and that so many people still don't get
it, but "Then don't contribute" is not an acceptable answer.
There is a very simple reason for not allowing the wiki to
show authors' IPs to all visitors: a) IPs are identifying
information, and b) showing them is not necessary for the
wiki to operate as intended. Those 2 things together say
that there is no justification for showing IPs to non-admins,
and common sense says that if there's an easy way to stop
doing it, it's the right thing to do. If the wiki can't be
configured that way, we'll all just consider it a minor
weakness in the system and take whatever care we feel we
need. But because it's just a minor weakness is no
justification for not fixing it.
If this wiki was intended to have a requirement that you
can't contribute unless you identify your location, or if the
design intended for all users to know the locations of all
other users, then it would make perfect sense to leave IPs
visible. But just because someone doesn't understand or care
about the privacy issues that *are* present is no reason they
shouldn't be fixed wherever possible for those who do care.
For clarity, the issue isn't that people can see your IP
address. It's that people don't need to. Your IP has
nothing to do with the content you contribute to the
documentation as far as non-admins are concerned, so it
shouldn't be tied to it. It's just good design. A lot of
people who are concerned with their privacy understand the
importance of keeping separate information about themselves
separate. It's not about hiding individual pieces of
information. No single piece of information about someone is
worth all that much; it's the combinations of collected data
that makes it easier to invade people's privacy. If some
people want to practice good personal security, and it's not
terribly inconvenient for the site admins, let them. And
don't tell them they can't contribute just because you don't
yet understand the principles behind what they want.
Ryan

Post by Tom Spilman

Post by Johannes Bauer
-----Original Message-----
Johannes Bauer
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 4:44 AM
To: A list for developers using the SDL library. (includes
SDL-announce)
Subject: Re: [SDL] Wiki etiquette

Post by Donny Viszneki
I understand what the circumstances are. Hey guess what, my

IP address

Post by Donny Viszneki
is 136.142.21.65, oh no my privacy has been violated somehow. Or
worse, someone will hack my Windows box, wait, I'm not

running Winblows.
If you choose in full conciousness to publicly show your IP

address to

Post by Tom Spilman

Post by Johannes Bauer
other people, fine, that's your choice. If you show the IPs

of other

Post by Tom Spilman

Post by Johannes Bauer
people without them knowing prior to their posting this is not okay.

Post by Donny Viszneki
Seriously people, there is no shortage of IP addresses out there.

Seriously, Donny, there _is_ a shortage of IP addresses out there.
Have a look at IPv6. Jeez.

Post by Donny Viszneki
If
you're looking to hack someone's machine or do ANY other malicious
activity against a random computer, there are thousands of times
greater methods for finding future victims' ip addresses.

That's not what its (primarily) about. It's about making

information

Post by Tom Spilman

Post by Johannes Bauer
about some poeple publicly available which they might not

want to be

Post by Tom Spilman

Post by Johannes Bauer
publicly available.

Post by Donny Viszneki
I think the sdl doc wiki should adopt this friendly edict: if you
object to having your IP address shown to the public, I

object to you

Post by Donny Viszneki
contributing to the sdl doc wiki.

Awesome! Man, you are so very tolerant and understanding...
Greetings,
Joe
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

[Bob Pendleton]

Post by Tom Spilman

And don't tell them they can't contribute just because you don't
yet understand the principles behind what they want.

I never said can't and I very much understand why they're concerned. I
don't agree that any effort to modify the MoinMoin wiki engine should be
taken when there are easy solutions like 1) not contributing or 2) set your
username before contributing. I don't seem to remember any wiki engine that
doesn't show IPs and/or hostnames for unregistered users, so I take that as
meaning it isn't a top priority to wiki developers.
I suggest as Bob has to talk to the MoinMoin developers and get a feature
request in.
Bob: What about just disabling anonymous users in the wiki (I assume
MoinMoin can do that)? That way you must register to contribute and no IPs
are shown.

Yeah...

Anyone see the move "office Space"? I'm starting to feel a lot like a
character in that movie. Not sure which one... Yeah...

Oh well.

I looked into this at a pretty good level of detail. If you are a
registered user it does not show your host name on the RecentChanges
page, but it does include it in the text of the page. So, it is still
there, just not visible. I'm sure the objections to having it there, but
hidden, would be just as loud as they are now.

A long time ago, oh nearly a month, we had a discussion about requiring
people to register to post on the wiki. The reaction was as loud and
negative as it was to this. We sort of agreed that registration would be
oK, but after running a wiki on my own site I came to see that
registration really isn't needed. So, when I configured this wiki I
decided to allow people to post without registering. So far it has
worked well.

When I tell MoinMoin to not show host names on the RecentChanges page it
shows *no* identifying information at all. I for one, want my
contributions to the wiki to be visible for at least a little while.
Without the info on the RecentChanges pages the people doing the work
get no credit at all.

I suspect this a "Little Red Hen" situation. There are only a half dozen
people doing any work at all on the wiki. Of those, 3 people have done
most of the work and 1 person has done more than all the others put
together. I think it is time for the little red hens to completely
ignore the loud mouthed do nothings and get on with building the wiki.

In the time I've wasted on this I could have converted a dozen pages of
documentation.

Bob Pendleton

Post by Tom Spilman
Tom

[Donny Viszneki]

Post by Johannes Bauer

Post by Donny Viszneki
I understand what the circumstances are. Hey guess what, my IP
address is 136.142.21.65, oh no my privacy has been violated somehow.
Or worse, someone will hack my Windows box, wait, I'm not running
Winblows.

If you choose in full conciousness to publicly show your IP address to
other people, fine, that's your choice. If you show the IPs of other
people without them knowing prior to their posting this is not okay.

I'm not commenting on your comment, but rather on the un-commented-on
portion of my previous comment. I just wanted to apologize for saying
something completely irrelevant about Windows being bad.

Post by Johannes Bauer

Post by Donny Viszneki
Seriously people, there is no shortage of IP addresses out there.

Seriously, Donny, there _is_ a shortage of IP addresses out there.
Have a look at IPv6. Jeez.

Post by Donny Viszneki
If you're looking to hack someone's machine or do ANY other malicious
activity against a random computer, there are thousands of times
greater methods for finding future victims' ip addresses.

That's not what its (primarily) about. It's about making information
about some poeple publicly available which they might not want to be
publicly available.

You misinterpreted these two statements as being separate in nature. I
was not in fact saying that the Internet isn't running out of IPv4
addresses, I was saying that there is no shortage to lesser hackers
(script kiddies) of target IP addresses for their "hacking" escapades.

- Donny Viszneki

[Scott Harper]

I have not contributed to this thread, though I have been following it
with some interest, and would like to simply sum up what happened, and
things as I understand them. Assuming all is correct, it seems this
thread is officially closed, yes?

So someone saw an IP address on the recent changes page and/or the
bottom of a page they or someone else edited. Seeing objection coming
from others, several of us then proceeded to continue on a
conversational path wrought with misunderstandings and mild insult. In
the end, we discovered that the IPs shown are not one's own IP address,
but rather the host's IP address, thus rendering the privacy argument
relatively void (I could still see an argument against); especially in
light of the lack of controls to remove the display of a person's host
IP address, we have decided that it is not as serious as previously
thought, and thus not worth the effort of overhauling anything.

No feelings remain hurt, nor prides permanently damaged, I hope. I have
been a member of this list for a long time, and you're all very
intelligent people; I hope we can walk away unscathed?

Cheers (while I go learn how to wiki for myself so I can stop being a
red-hen, as it were... ^_^),

--Scott

Also, we determined that the internet world is running a tad short on
IPv4 addresses, and thus the invention of IPv6 is becoming more and more
requisite, though that fact by itself has little to do with our little
wiki, and was pointed out by mistake. Good to know! ^_^

[Bob Pendleton]

Post by Drake Wilson

Post by Donny Viszneki
Again, could someone please state the nature of their objection to
showing your IP address?

Not your host, the hosts of the other people who edited the pages.
Look at RecentChanges again. The <span title="..."> causes the
hostname/IP to appear in the source of the document, as well as being
shown in many browsers on extended mouse-over.
I don't have any personal objection to this.

Good, now can we drop this discussion?

Post by Drake Wilson
However, other arbitrary
people being able to see whence your actions came host-wise seems to
be considered debatable privacy practice in many places.

I'm afraid that falls under the category of an appeal to authority where
the authority is a strawman. In other words, that isn't even a bad
argument to stop keeping IP addresses. It isn't an argument at all.

OTOH, keeping IPs provides us with a way to ban the IPs of people who
deface or misuse the wiki. Which is currently the only hard security we
have in place. Without this minimal level of security we might as well
just open up a warez site with free up and down loads. It is of distinct
value to all the owners and users of the wiki. (If could keep us out of
jail.)

Bob Pendleton

Post by Drake Wilson
---> Drake Wilson
______________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

[Bob Pendleton]

Post by Stephane Marchesin

Post by Bob Pendleton
Good question. The original idea was to move the existing documentation
to a wiki so that it can be maintained by the community. I don't know
how Sam feels about having other material on the wiki.
It seems to me that there is no reason why you can't add material to the
FAQ, where your material would fit very well, you could put it under the
examples page, or we can add a tutorial page.

Not sure if everything would fit under a "tutorial" banner. I also have
a draft of a "porting SDL" document around.

Well, create a new entry in the main page and post it. These things get
reorganized as they grow, so just put it up there.

Post by Stephane Marchesin

Post by Bob Pendleton
If Sam objects to having other material on the wiki then we can move it
to another wiki. (It would be very welcome on gameprogrammer.com/gpwiki)

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Btw, while you're talking about etiquette, I'm not sure if it's very
nice to show the IPs of the people who edit the pages.

I don't understand why you consider that a bad thing? Please educate me.
If you register on the site, then (AFAIK) it only lists your user name.

Yup, that's exactly my concern. Registered users also have their ip
address listed (appears as a tooltip for me, so it's probably in the
source of the page).

You still haven't given any reason why we would not want to keep the IP
address around? I really can't imagine any reason why you would worry
about that. Its in the headers of every email you post, why not record
it on the wiki?

Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Stephane
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

[Stephane Marchesin]

Post by Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin

Post by Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Btw, while you're talking about etiquette, I'm not sure if it's very
nice to show the IPs of the people who edit the pages.

I don't understand why you consider that a bad thing? Please educate me.
If you register on the site, then (AFAIK) it only lists your user name.

Yup, that's exactly my concern. Registered users also have their ip
address listed (appears as a tooltip for me, so it's probably in the
source of the page).

You still haven't given any reason why we would not want to keep the IP
address around? I really can't imagine any reason why you would worry
about that. Its in the headers of every email you post, why not record
it on the wiki?

That's called privacy, and that thing will disappear unless it is taken
care of. I know the current trend is to say "if you have done nothing
wrong that won't be a problem for you", but it's a problem for me :
that's exposing parts of our privates lives.
Here are some reasons :
- maybe you don't want other people to know what your ip(s) are since it
reveals (for example) where you work, where you study, where you are...
- maybe you don't want your boss to know you edit the SDL wiki from work
- maybe your machine has a nice security hole you haven't noticed yet
(or maybe the hole is unpublished). People looking for machines to hack
sometimes get addresses from such places.
Such reasons could refrain people from posting on the wiki, thus
defeating its purpose.

OTOH, publicly displaying the IPs is not needed for correct wiki
moderation : only administrators can ban specific adress, so why not
show these to wiki administrators only ? Note I have nothing against
recording the addresses (that's the basis of wiki moderation), I have
something against putting them online.

Oh and the emails sent to the SDL mainling list are only recieved by
people subscribed to the list, while the SDL wiki is accessible to
anyone who has internet access. That's quite a difference.

[You asked for it. Now I hope it doesn't trigger too much trolling]

Stephane

[Bob Pendleton]

Post by Stephane Marchesin

Post by Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin

Post by Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Btw, while you're talking about etiquette, I'm not sure if it's very
nice to show the IPs of the people who edit the pages.

I don't understand why you consider that a bad thing? Please educate me.
If you register on the site, then (AFAIK) it only lists your user name.

Yup, that's exactly my concern. Registered users also have their ip
address listed (appears as a tooltip for me, so it's probably in the
source of the page).

You still haven't given any reason why we would not want to keep the IP
address around? I really can't imagine any reason why you would worry
about that. Its in the headers of every email you post, why not record
it on the wiki?

That's called privacy, and that thing will disappear unless it is taken
care of. I know the current trend is to say "if you have done nothing
that's exposing parts of our privates lives.

Yes, I am well aware of all of that. There is the other side to the
story. Your right to privacy ends where my right to know begins.

Post by Stephane Marchesin
- maybe you don't want other people to know what your ip(s) are since it
reveals (for example) where you work, where you study, where you are...

First off, as far as I can tell the IPs are not stored anywhere that is
visible to the public. Your host name is stored in the recent changes
page. Many ISPs include your IP in the host name so it winds up in the
wiki through no fault of the wiki. Complain to your ISP.

Post by Stephane Marchesin
- maybe you don't want your boss to know you edit the SDL wiki from work

There are so many problems with that... In every job I have ever had
doing programming or anything technical everything I did using the
companies equipment belonged to the company. So, if you work under a
similar contract you are using your companies equipment to to edit the
wiki then everything you add from your companies computers belongs to
the company and we have no right to display it on the wiki. We can be
sued for even having it on the wiki and/or forced to remove everything
you did. If we actually helped you cover your tracks we are placing
ourselves on very thin legal ice. I know that sounds absolutely absurd,
but if I now change the setting so that the host name is not shown,
could a lawyer claim that I am helping you defraud your employer? I bet
they could. Could they make it stick? I don't know and I don't have the
$100,000 it would take to defend a suit like that.

I understand how this helps you. But, it creates a potential legal
problem for us. Please, helping you defraud your employer is not a
reason to change the setting.

We could lose the rights to the documentation.

Post by Stephane Marchesin
- maybe your machine has a nice security hole you haven't noticed yet
(or maybe the hole is unpublished). People looking for machines to hack
sometimes get addresses from such places.

Considering how easy it is to get IP addresses I can't really buy this
one. Sorry. You are much better off using a fire wall and a reliable OS
than worrying about this tiny risk. Anyway, as I said before, your IP is
not on the page. At least not where I can find it.

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Such reasons could refrain people from posting on the wiki, thus
defeating its purpose.

I suspect that it will not deter many people, hopefully only the ones
that should be deterred, but probably not.

Post by Stephane Marchesin
OTOH, publicly displaying the IPs is not needed for correct wiki
moderation : only administrators can ban specific adress, so why not
show these to wiki administrators only ? Note I have nothing against
recording the addresses (that's the basis of wiki moderation), I have
something against putting them online.

Well, they are only available to administrators. Actually, I can't get
actual IP addresses. AFAIK, only Sam can get them. I can only see what
you see, the host name, not the IP address.

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Oh and the emails sent to the SDL mainling list are only recieved by
people subscribed to the list, while the SDL wiki is accessible to
anyone who has internet access. That's quite a difference.

Hey, posting this message places your email address on a web site where
anyone can see it. What is the difference? My spam filter rejects 500
emails a day, but I haven't (to the best of my knowledge) been hacked or
had a virus since I 1) got a hardware fire wall 2) moved to Linux 3) got
religious about security updates.

Post by Stephane Marchesin
[You asked for it. Now I hope it doesn't trigger too much trolling]

Look, I understand your point of view. I'm even sympathetic to it. I
just don't see that your need to hide is greater than our need to know.

At this point I am dropping out of this discussion. It has gotten to
absurd to continue.


Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Stephane
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

[Bill Kendrick]

<snip>

Post by Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Oh and the emails sent to the SDL mainling list are only recieved by
people subscribed to the list, while the SDL wiki is accessible to
anyone who has internet access. That's quite a difference.

Hey, posting this message places your email address on a web site where
anyone can see it.

Heh, yep. Precisely. For example:

[SDL] Wiki etiquette
Stephane Marchesin stephane.marchesin at wanadoo.fr
Mon Aug 9 15:01:45 PDT 2004

http://twomix.devolution.com/pipermail/sdl/2004-August/063892.html


In the "Rules" section of my LUG's mailing list info page, we have the
following:

1. Public Nature

The mailing lists are public --- anyone can join them to receive
list messages. Posts are archived on this web site and possibly other
places on the 'Net as well. Do not post if you are not comfortable
with your message going to many unknown recipients and becoming a
permanent part of a publicly readable archive somewhere.

etc.

-bill!

[Stephane Marchesin]

Post by Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
- maybe you don't want other people to know what your ip(s) are since it
reveals (for example) where you work, where you study, where you are...

First off, as far as I can tell the IPs are not stored anywhere that is
visible to the public. Your host name is stored in the recent changes
page. Many ISPs include your IP in the host name so it winds up in the
wiki through no fault of the wiki. Complain to your ISP.

Well, the hostname resolves to an IP anyway so that's almost the same.
The "host" command does this.

Post by Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
- maybe you don't want your boss to know you edit the SDL wiki from work

There are so many problems with that... In every job I have ever had
doing programming or anything technical everything I did using the
companies equipment belonged to the company. So, if you work under a
similar contract you are using your companies equipment to to edit the
wiki then everything you add from your companies computers belongs to
the company and we have no right to display it on the wiki. We can be
sued for even having it on the wiki and/or forced to remove everything
you did. If we actually helped you cover your tracks we are placing
ourselves on very thin legal ice. I know that sounds absolutely absurd,
but if I now change the setting so that the host name is not shown,
could a lawyer claim that I am helping you defraud your employer? I bet
they could. Could they make it stick? I don't know and I don't have the
$100,000 it would take to defend a suit like that.
I understand how this helps you. But, it creates a potential legal
problem for us. Please, helping you defraud your employer is not a
reason to change the setting.
We could lose the rights to the documentation.

That's not a problem I personnaly have.

OTOH, with people going crazy about lawsuits, I could sue you because my
IP showed up in the SDL wiki and someone subsequently hacked me. Heh :)

Post by Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
- maybe your machine has a nice security hole you haven't noticed yet
(or maybe the hole is unpublished). People looking for machines to hack
sometimes get addresses from such places.

Considering how easy it is to get IP addresses I can't really buy this
one. Sorry.

Depends. Maybe someone who wants to hack Bob's machine (you are the
example here, since I can't see why someone would want to hack my machine :)

[...]

Post by Bob Pendleton

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Oh and the emails sent to the SDL mainling list are only recieved by
people subscribed to the list, while the SDL wiki is accessible to
anyone who has internet access. That's quite a difference.

Hey, posting this message places your email address on a web site where
anyone can see it. What is the difference?

I don't care about my message being put online since in this form it
doesn't show where it comes from.

Post by Bob Pendleton
My spam filter rejects 500
emails a day, but I haven't (to the best of my knowledge) been hacked or
had a virus since I 1) got a hardware fire wall 2) moved to Linux 3) got
religious about security updates.

Well, I now how tu run a server, that's exactly why I am paranoid. With
security there is no panacea.
I've never had any security problem, btw, so being paranoid pays off, in
the end.

Stephane

[Brian Raiter]

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Oh and the emails sent to the SDL mainling list are only recieved by
people subscribed to the list, while the SDL wiki is accessible to
anyone who has internet access. That's quite a difference.

http://twomix.devolution.com/pipermail/sdl/2004-August/063892.html
dig wanadoo.fr

I don't think the difference is significant.

b

[Stephane Marchesin]

Post by Bill Kendrick

Post by Stephane Marchesin
Oh and the emails sent to the SDL mainling list are only recieved by
people subscribed to the list, while the SDL wiki is accessible to
anyone who has internet access. That's quite a difference.

http://twomix.devolution.com/pipermail/sdl/2004-August/063892.html
dig wanadoo.fr
I don't think the difference is significant.

Nope, wanadoo is my ISP.

Stephane

[Tom Wilson]

Hi,

I have been following this discussion for the past few days. And I have
decided that i'm not personally going to contribute to the wiki pages.
This is mostly due to the fact that my IP would be shown, without my
authorisation. I have a static IP.

I can't really see the point of showing *any* of the IP's when the
large majority of dial-up or broadband users will have a *dynamic
addresses*. This fact alone makes it *totally pointless* showing an
IP. Only people with static IP's will be 'hurt' by this.

Why can't you just make it so that people who don't wish to show their
IP can opt-out by checking a check box or something.

This is obviously a big issue with people otherwise the discussion would
not be taking place. So perhaps we should try to accomodate everyone.

- Tom

[Bob Pendleton]

Post by Tom Wilson
Hi,
I have been following this discussion for the past few days. And I have
decided that i'm not personally going to contribute to the wiki pages.
This is mostly due to the fact that my IP would be shown, without my
authorisation. I have a static IP.

As I said before, IPs are not shown. I also have a static IP, and it
doesn't bother me at all that my host name is shown. I really don't get
this at all. I haven't seen a single posting that gives an reason why
the wiki shouldn't have host names in the text of the web page.

Post by Tom Wilson
I can't really see the point of showing *any* of the IP's when the
large majority of dial-up or broadband users will have a *dynamic
addresses*. This fact alone makes it *totally pointless* showing an
IP. Only people with static IP's will be 'hurt' by this.

This is a good point. Very few people are even potential hurt by this.

Post by Tom Wilson
Why can't you just make it so that people who don't wish to show their
IP can opt-out by checking a check box or something.

The reason is that I just down loaded and installed moinmoin, I didn't
write it. Changing it to do what you want would require a lot more time
than I am willing to put in. Why don't you write it, submit it to
moinmoin and when it gets in I'll install the new version?

Post by Tom Wilson
This is obviously a big issue with people otherwise the discussion would
not be taking place. So perhaps we should try to accomodate everyone.

My bet is that it is a big issue to a very small number of people and
the vast majority of the people on the list only care because they keep
getting emails on this topic.

Post by Tom Wilson
- Tom
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl