'Debo', Duchess of Devonshire's Sister, Dies in Paris

[PK]

Sir Oswald's widow dies in Paris at 93
By Philip Delves Broughton in Paris
(Filed: 13/08/2003)

Diana Mosley, the widow of Sir Oswald Mosley and one of the celebrated
Mitford sisters, died on Monday aged 93 at her flat in Paris,
surrounded by friends and family, a week after suffering a slight
stroke.

In a letter to a close friend 10 days ago, she said that despite her
love of hot weather, she was finding the heatwave in Paris a struggle.

Diana Mosley, regarded as the most beautiful of the daughters of Lord
and Lady Redesdale, was also the most controversial.

She left her first husband, the brewing heir Bryan Guinness, and
embarked on an affair with Sir Oswald, the leader of the British Union
of Fascists. They were married in Joseph Goebbels's drawing room in
Berlin in 1936. Adolf Hitler gave them a silver-framed photograph of
himself as a wedding present.

Their high regard for the Nazis before war broke out damned the
Mosleys for ever in the eyes of the British public. Soon after the war
they moved to a house outside Paris and remained in France for the
rest of their lives, befriending, among others, the Duke and Duchess
of Windsor.

Lady Mosley was frequently asked to recant her earlier beliefs but did
so in terms which rarely satisfied her critics. She remained a
vigorous defender of her husband and his views. Last year she posed
for Vogue magazine with some of her numerous grandchildren and
great-grandchildren.

Of her five sisters and one brother, only her youngest sister, the
Duchess of Devonshire, survives.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$UJX2SQAZGH1NZQFIQMGCFFOAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2003/08/13/nmosly13.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/08/13/ixportaltop.html

A Friend of ours spent some time at Chatsworth last year whilst the
Duke and Duchess entertained Charlie and Camz.

Karen Martin

[banana]

In article <gfBShVAYZgO$***@borve.demon.co.uk>, banana <***@REMOVE_THIS.b
orve.demon.co.uk> writes

garfield.com> writes

Post by PK
Sir Oswald's widow dies in Paris at 93
By Philip Delves Broughton in Paris
(Filed: 13/08/2003)
Diana Mosley, the widow of Sir Oswald Mosley and one of the celebrated
Mitford sisters, died on Monday aged 93 at her flat in Paris,
surrounded by friends and family, a week after suffering a slight
stroke.

<snip>

Post by PK
Their high regard for the Nazis before war broke out damned the
Mosleys for ever in the eyes of the British public.

It's not as if the British fascist movement was highly popular even when
the UK was at peace with Nazi Germany or even when they were allies
under the naval pact of 1935. There is mythologising about Cable Street
but it is true that the fascists were beaten off the streets even in the
East End of London (despite efforts by the so-called 'Communist' Party
to dissuade people from opposing them).

Their efforts in the late 1940s and 1950s were crushed too - thanks partly to
the valiant efforts of the Jewish '43' Group who spoke to the fascists in the
language they understood - i.e. systematically breaking up their meetings and
putting as many fascists as possible into hospital (no 'rock agaisnt racism'
pop concerts or anything like that).

However, this shouldn't make us forget that today in Burnley the
neo-Nazis are doing better in the polls than the fascists ever did in the
1930s or after the war, and better than the neo-Nazis did in the 1970s. I
think the best result for the Mosleyites was 33% in a single ward in
Shoreditch in 1956 (corrections welcome). I don't think the National Front
ever got close to this in any local election in the 1970s (dunno what
percentages the National Party got in the three local wards in Blackburn in
1976?). But today the neo-Nazi BNP is getting *at least* a 33% level of
electoral support across almost all wards in Burnley, see:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=k1FzrIACaqs%2BEwHr%40borve.demon.co.uk.
And before anyone mentions it, yes this level of support did hold up in the
local Burnley by-election in June of this year, that they lost to the
liberals. (But this didn't stop some anti-fascists portraying the fact that
'67% of voters voted against the BNP' was a great result,
see: <http://www.naar.org.uk/resources/resGENERAL/coalition200603.pdf>)

When she was jailed during the war, fascist 'Lady' Mosley was allowed to
keep her SERVANTS in prison. She was a cousin of Churchill. I doubt the
jailers checked her hair for lice either.
I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

Her words were that the release was "a slap in the face of anti-fascists in
every country and a direct betrayal of those who have died for the cause of
anti-fascism".

Post by PK
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$UJX2SQAZGH1NZQFI
QMGCFFOAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2003/08/13/nmosly13.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003
/08/13/ixportaltop.html

[banana]

In article <xuTGNhATFhO$***@borve.demon.co.uk>, banana <***@REMOVE_T
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

Post by banana
orve.demon.co.uk> writes

garfield.com> writes

Post by PK
Sir Oswald's widow dies in Paris at 93
By Philip Delves Broughton in Paris
(Filed: 13/08/2003)
Diana Mosley, the widow of Sir Oswald Mosley and one of the celebrated
Mitford sisters, died on Monday aged 93 at her flat in Paris,
surrounded by friends and family, a week after suffering a slight
stroke.

<snip>

Post by PK
Their high regard for the Nazis before war broke out damned the
Mosleys for ever in the eyes of the British public.

It's not as if the British fascist movement was highly popular even when
the UK was at peace with Nazi Germany or even when they were allies
under the naval pact of 1935. There is mythologising about Cable Street
but it is true that the fascists were beaten off the streets even in the
East End of London (despite efforts by the so-called 'Communist' Party
to dissuade people from opposing them).

Their efforts in the late 1940s and 1950s were crushed too - thanks partly to
the valiant efforts of the Jewish '43' Group who spoke to the fascists in the
language they understood - i.e. systematically breaking up their meetings and
putting as many fascists as possible into hospital (no 'rock agaisnt racism'
pop concerts or anything like that).

Actually, come to think of it, one of the influences (not the only one)
within the '43 Group' was that of a rival racist/fascist scene to that
of the Mosleyites, namely Irgun. I'd forgotten that.

[Mike CJ]

garfield.com> writes

Post by PK
Sir Oswald's widow dies in Paris at 93
By Philip Delves Broughton in Paris
(Filed: 13/08/2003)
Diana Mosley, the widow of Sir Oswald Mosley and one of the celebrated
Mitford sisters, died on Monday aged 93 at her flat in Paris,
surrounded by friends and family, a week after suffering a slight
stroke.

Communism is a far bigger evil than Fascism.
Mike.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 04-Aug-2003

[banana]

Post by Mike CJ

garfield.com> writes

Post by PK
Sir Oswald's widow dies in Paris at 93
By Philip Delves Broughton in Paris
(Filed: 13/08/2003)
Diana Mosley, the widow of Sir Oswald Mosley and one of the celebrated
Mitford sisters, died on Monday aged 93 at her flat in Paris,
surrounded by friends and family, a week after suffering a slight
stroke.

Communism is a far bigger evil than Fascism.

What do you mean by 'communism', Mike? I somehow doubt you mean what
Marx meant, i.e. a society without the State, money, exploitation,
wage-labour, etc.

[PK]

garfield.com> writes

Post by PK
Sir Oswald's widow dies in Paris at 93
By Philip Delves Broughton in Paris
(Filed: 13/08/2003)
Diana Mosley, the widow of Sir Oswald Mosley and one of the celebrated
Mitford sisters, died on Monday aged 93 at her flat in Paris,
surrounded by friends and family, a week after suffering a slight
stroke.
In a letter to a close friend 10 days ago, she said that despite her
love of hot weather, she was finding the heatwave in Paris a struggle.

I doubt that interesting papers will be released but we will see. Oswald
Mosley was intimately involved in the plan for a pro-Edward VIII coup in
December 1936.

Post by PK
Diana Mosley, regarded as the most beautiful of the daughters of Lord
and Lady Redesdale, was also the most controversial.
She left her first husband, the brewing heir Bryan Guinness, and
embarked on an affair with Sir Oswald, the leader of the British Union
of Fascists. They were married in Joseph Goebbels's drawing room in
Berlin in 1936. Adolf Hitler gave them a silver-framed photograph of
himself as a wedding present.
Their high regard for the Nazis before war broke out damned the
Mosleys for ever in the eyes of the British public.

It's not as if the British fascist movement was highly popular even when
the UK was at peace with Nazi Germany or even when they were allies
under the naval pact of 1935. There is mythologising about Cable Street
but it is true that the fascists were beaten off the streets even in the
East End of London (despite efforts by the so-called 'Communist' Party
to dissuade people from opposing them).

Here's more on that from a British Fascist site:

BU's campaigning in the East End culminated in the Cable Street Riots
of 5.10.1936, when 2,000-3,000 fascists tried to march through but
were stopped by police fearing major bloodshed from socialist and
Jewish counter-demonstrators. The Cable Street Riots led directly to
Parliament passing the Public Order Act which banned political
uniforms, the use of stewards at open-air meetings and gave the police
the power to ban marches. BU success in the East End continued for
some time after this, however; in the 1937 London County Council
elections, the BU stood candidates in three East End Wards and won a
fifth of the vote. This was later to prove the high-water mark of
pre-war British fascism. Cable Street also fully established a tactic
that British far-right groups have used ever since - marching
provocatively through a sensitive area, with police protection, and
playing the innocent when socialists turn out to riot. On this
occasion, no-one was in any doubt whose fault it all was, which is a
curious contrast with those Nationl Front marches of the 1970s when
the Tory press would try and claim that the violence was all the fault
of the Socialist Workers Party.

In 1936 Mosley married his longstanding mistress Diana Guinness, (nee
Mitford) in Germany. After the ceremony, the couple dined with Hitler,
Goebbels and other top Nazis. There is little evidence, however, that
Hitler and Mosley hit it off.

In the Abdication Crisis, the BU was firmly behind Edward VIII, having
long-since seen in him the kind of 'modern' monarch who would fit in
well with the new fascist order. There were also personal connections
between Mosley and Edward. His first wife's sister Alexandra Curzon,
known to her friends as 'Ba-Ba' had married Edward's best friend
'Fruity' Metcalfe. When she became an ardent Mosleyite she got
nicknamed 'Ba-Ba Blackshirt'. Edward and Mosley were essentially part
of the same social set, had met several times and had carried on a
long correspondence about fascism.

The critical thing about the Abdication Crisis, though, was that
Mosley saw this as a possible opportunity to seize power. PM Baldwin
threatened that he and his government would resign if the King openly
married Wallis, and he had an undertaking from Labour leader Attlee
that he would not try to form a government. If the King stood firm,
then in the ensuing constitutional crisis, Mosley might have been able
to seize power on a tidal wave of popular support for the monarch.
Unlikely, but just about possible. This, I think, is why the
political establishment, Labour and Tory alike, were so keen to keep
Edward out of the country once he'd abdicated. Hitler later said that
this episode demonstrated Mosley's poor political judgement.

When she was jailed during the war, fascist 'Lady' Mosley was allowed to
keep her SERVANTS in prison. She was a cousin of Churchill. I doubt the
jailers checked her hair for lice either.
I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

Jessica and Nancy Mitford were very talented writers...I recall Debo
saying of Camilla Parker Bowles during the V&A Exhibition of
Tiaras...'She's surveying her territory' ... she was said to be quite
miffed that Camz was allowed to jump the queue...even though she
entertains her as Charles' 'escort'- what a supremely silly term in
the circs.

Post by PK
Soon after the war
they moved to a house outside Paris and remained in France for the
rest of their lives, befriending, among others, the Duke and Duchess
of Windsor.

Whoah!! Oswald Mosley and the 'Prince' of Wales/'King' Edward
VIII/'Duke' of Windsor were friends for A LONG TIME before the end of
the war.

Post by PK
Lady Mosley was frequently asked to recant her earlier beliefs but did
so in terms which rarely satisfied her critics. She remained a
vigorous defender of her husband and his views.

Things would have been very different if Mosely's first wife, Lady
Cynthia Curzon, would had lived and he remained her Husband.

I.e. she was a diehard fascist (with a European twist post-war).

Post by PK
Last year she posed
for Vogue magazine with some of her numerous grandchildren and
great-grandchildren.
Of her five sisters and one brother, only her youngest sister, the
Duchess of Devonshire, survives.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$UJX2SQAZGH1NZQFIQMGCFFOAV
C
BQUIV0?xml=/news/2003/08/13/nmosly13.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/08/13/ixportaltop.
h
tml

[julian]

Post by PK

garfield.com> writes

Post by PK
Sir Oswald's widow dies in Paris at 93
By Philip Delves Broughton in Paris
(Filed: 13/08/2003)
Diana Mosley, the widow of Sir Oswald Mosley and one of the celebrated
Mitford sisters, died on Monday aged 93 at her flat in Paris,
surrounded by friends and family, a week after suffering a slight
stroke.
In a letter to a close friend 10 days ago, she said that despite her
love of hot weather, she was finding the heatwave in Paris a struggle.

I doubt that interesting papers will be released but we will see. Oswald
Mosley was intimately involved in the plan for a pro-Edward VIII coup in
December 1936.

Post by PK
Diana Mosley, regarded as the most beautiful of the daughters of Lord
and Lady Redesdale, was also the most controversial.
She left her first husband, the brewing heir Bryan Guinness, and
embarked on an affair with Sir Oswald, the leader of the British Union
of Fascists. They were married in Joseph Goebbels's drawing room in
Berlin in 1936. Adolf Hitler gave them a silver-framed photograph of
himself as a wedding present.
Their high regard for the Nazis before war broke out damned the
Mosleys for ever in the eyes of the British public.

It's not as if the British fascist movement was highly popular even when
the UK was at peace with Nazi Germany or even when they were allies
under the naval pact of 1935. There is mythologising about Cable Street
but it is true that the fascists were beaten off the streets even in the
East End of London (despite efforts by the so-called 'Communist' Party
to dissuade people from opposing them).

BU's campaigning in the East End culminated in the Cable Street Riots
of 5.10.1936, when 2,000-3,000 fascists tried to march through but
were stopped by police fearing major bloodshed from socialist and
Jewish counter-demonstrators. The Cable Street Riots led directly to
Parliament passing the Public Order Act which banned political
uniforms, the use of stewards at open-air meetings and gave the police
the power to ban marches. BU success in the East End continued for
some time after this, however; in the 1937 London County Council
elections, the BU stood candidates in three East End Wards and won a
fifth of the vote. This was later to prove the high-water mark of
pre-war British fascism. Cable Street also fully established a tactic
that British far-right groups have used ever since - marching
provocatively through a sensitive area, with police protection, and
playing the innocent when socialists turn out to riot. On this
occasion, no-one was in any doubt whose fault it all was, which is a
curious contrast with those Nationl Front marches of the 1970s when
the Tory press would try and claim that the violence was all the fault
of the Socialist Workers Party.
In 1936 Mosley married his longstanding mistress Diana Guinness, (nee
Mitford) in Germany. After the ceremony, the couple dined with Hitler,
Goebbels and other top Nazis. There is little evidence, however, that
Hitler and Mosley hit it off.
In the Abdication Crisis, the BU was firmly behind Edward VIII, having
long-since seen in him the kind of 'modern' monarch who would fit in
well with the new fascist order. There were also personal connections
between Mosley and Edward. His first wife's sister Alexandra Curzon,
known to her friends as 'Ba-Ba' had married Edward's best friend
'Fruity' Metcalfe. When she became an ardent Mosleyite she got
nicknamed 'Ba-Ba Blackshirt'. Edward and Mosley were essentially part
of the same social set, had met several times and had carried on a
long correspondence about fascism.
The critical thing about the Abdication Crisis, though, was that
Mosley saw this as a possible opportunity to seize power. PM Baldwin
threatened that he and his government would resign if the King openly
married Wallis, and he had an undertaking from Labour leader Attlee
that he would not try to form a government. If the King stood firm,
then in the ensuing constitutional crisis, Mosley might have been able
to seize power on a tidal wave of popular support for the monarch.
Unlikely, but just about possible. This, I think, is why the
political establishment, Labour and Tory alike, were so keen to keep
Edward out of the country once he'd abdicated. Hitler later said that
this episode demonstrated Mosley's poor political judgement.

When she was jailed during the war, fascist 'Lady' Mosley was allowed to
keep her SERVANTS in prison. She was a cousin of Churchill. I doubt the
jailers checked her hair for lice either.
I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

Jessica and Nancy Mitford were very talented writers...I recall Debo
saying of Camilla Parker Bowles during the V&A Exhibition of
Tiaras...'She's surveying her territory' ... she was said to be quite
miffed that Camz was allowed to jump the queue...even though she
entertains her as Charles' 'escort'- what a supremely silly term in
the circs.

========================================================

I wonder if Jessica and Diana ever made up before Jessica's death in
the Nineties? Jessica was living in Oakland, CA for years before she
passed on, although she seems to have returned home on occasion I've
never read any account of these two ever meeting up in the final years
of their lives.

Did you ever see the televised version of "Love in a Cold Climate"
some years ago, which is Nancy Mitford's loosely derived version of
Mitford family life. It was really wonderful.

Post by PK

Post by PK
Soon after the war
they moved to a house outside Paris and remained in France for the
rest of their lives, befriending, among others, the Duke and Duchess
of Windsor.

Whoah!! Oswald Mosley and the 'Prince' of Wales/'King' Edward
VIII/'Duke' of Windsor were friends for A LONG TIME before the end of
the war.

Post by PK
Lady Mosley was frequently asked to recant her earlier beliefs but did
so in terms which rarely satisfied her critics. She remained a
vigorous defender of her husband and his views.

Things would have been very different if Mosely's first wife, Lady
Cynthia Curzon, would had lived and he remained her Husband.

I.e. she was a diehard fascist (with a European twist post-war).

Post by PK
Last year she posed
for Vogue magazine with some of her numerous grandchildren and
great-grandchildren.
Of her five sisters and one brother, only her youngest sister, the
Duchess of Devonshire, survives.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$UJX2SQAZGH1NZQFIQMGCFFOAV
C
BQUIV0?xml=/news/2003/08/13/nmosly13.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/08/13/ixportaltop.
h
tml

[abelard]

Post by julian
I wonder if Jessica and Diana ever made up before Jessica's death in
the Nineties? Jessica was living in Oakland, CA for years before she
passed on, although she seems to have returned home on occasion I've
never read any account of these two ever meeting up in the final years
of their lives.

they met up at the death of nancy and maintained a truce....
'polite distance' and some sniping from jessica thence forward.

strangely, jessica's real emotional tie was too unity....
jessica had 'priciples'....which made it difficult to handle herself well.

[abelard]

Post by PK

garfield.com> writes

Post by PK
Sir Oswald's widow dies in Paris at 93
By Philip Delves Broughton in Paris
(Filed: 13/08/2003)
Diana Mosley, the widow of Sir Oswald Mosley and one of the celebrated
Mitford sisters, died on Monday aged 93 at her flat in Paris,
surrounded by friends and family, a week after suffering a slight
stroke.
In a letter to a close friend 10 days ago, she said that despite her
love of hot weather, she was finding the heatwave in Paris a struggle.

I doubt that interesting papers will be released but we will see. Oswald
Mosley was intimately involved in the plan for a pro-Edward VIII coup in
December 1936.

Post by PK
Diana Mosley, regarded as the most beautiful of the daughters of Lord
and Lady Redesdale, was also the most controversial.
She left her first husband, the brewing heir Bryan Guinness, and
embarked on an affair with Sir Oswald, the leader of the British Union
of Fascists. They were married in Joseph Goebbels's drawing room in
Berlin in 1936. Adolf Hitler gave them a silver-framed photograph of
himself as a wedding present.
Their high regard for the Nazis before war broke out damned the
Mosleys for ever in the eyes of the British public.

It's not as if the British fascist movement was highly popular even when
the UK was at peace with Nazi Germany or even when they were allies
under the naval pact of 1935. There is mythologising about Cable Street
but it is true that the fascists were beaten off the streets even in the
East End of London (despite efforts by the so-called 'Communist' Party
to dissuade people from opposing them).

BU's campaigning in the East End culminated in the Cable Street Riots
of 5.10.1936, when 2,000-3,000 fascists tried to march through but
were stopped by police fearing major bloodshed from socialist and
Jewish counter-demonstrators. The Cable Street Riots led directly to
Parliament passing the Public Order Act which banned political
uniforms, the use of stewards at open-air meetings and gave the police
the power to ban marches. BU success in the East End continued for
some time after this, however; in the 1937 London County Council
elections, the BU stood candidates in three East End Wards and won a
fifth of the vote. This was later to prove the high-water mark of
pre-war British fascism. Cable Street also fully established a tactic
that British far-right groups have used ever since - marching
provocatively through a sensitive area, with police protection, and
playing the innocent when socialists turn out to riot. On this
occasion, no-one was in any doubt whose fault it all was, which is a
curious contrast with those Nationl Front marches of the 1970s when
the Tory press would try and claim that the violence was all the fault
of the Socialist Workers Party.
In 1936 Mosley married his longstanding mistress Diana Guinness, (nee
Mitford) in Germany. After the ceremony, the couple dined with Hitler,
Goebbels and other top Nazis. There is little evidence, however, that
Hitler and Mosley hit it off.
In the Abdication Crisis, the BU was firmly behind Edward VIII, having
long-since seen in him the kind of 'modern' monarch who would fit in
well with the new fascist order. There were also personal connections
between Mosley and Edward. His first wife's sister Alexandra Curzon,
known to her friends as 'Ba-Ba' had married Edward's best friend
'Fruity' Metcalfe. When she became an ardent Mosleyite

she was also one of mosley's mistresses....

Post by PK
she got
nicknamed 'Ba-Ba Blackshirt'. Edward and Mosley were essentially part
of the same social set, had met several times and had carried on a
long correspondence about fascism.

[PK]

Post by abelard

Post by PK

garfield.com> writes

Post by PK
Sir Oswald's widow dies in Paris at 93
By Philip Delves Broughton in Paris
(Filed: 13/08/2003)
Diana Mosley, the widow of Sir Oswald Mosley and one of the celebrated
Mitford sisters, died on Monday aged 93 at her flat in Paris,
surrounded by friends and family, a week after suffering a slight
stroke.
In a letter to a close friend 10 days ago, she said that despite her
love of hot weather, she was finding the heatwave in Paris a struggle.

I doubt that interesting papers will be released but we will see. Oswald
Mosley was intimately involved in the plan for a pro-Edward VIII coup in
December 1936.

Post by PK
Diana Mosley, regarded as the most beautiful of the daughters of Lord
and Lady Redesdale, was also the most controversial.
She left her first husband, the brewing heir Bryan Guinness, and
embarked on an affair with Sir Oswald, the leader of the British Union
of Fascists. They were married in Joseph Goebbels's drawing room in
Berlin in 1936. Adolf Hitler gave them a silver-framed photograph of
himself as a wedding present.
Their high regard for the Nazis before war broke out damned the
Mosleys for ever in the eyes of the British public.

It's not as if the British fascist movement was highly popular even when
the UK was at peace with Nazi Germany or even when they were allies
under the naval pact of 1935. There is mythologising about Cable Street
but it is true that the fascists were beaten off the streets even in the
East End of London (despite efforts by the so-called 'Communist' Party
to dissuade people from opposing them).

BU's campaigning in the East End culminated in the Cable Street Riots
of 5.10.1936, when 2,000-3,000 fascists tried to march through but
were stopped by police fearing major bloodshed from socialist and
Jewish counter-demonstrators. The Cable Street Riots led directly to
Parliament passing the Public Order Act which banned political
uniforms, the use of stewards at open-air meetings and gave the police
the power to ban marches. BU success in the East End continued for
some time after this, however; in the 1937 London County Council
elections, the BU stood candidates in three East End Wards and won a
fifth of the vote. This was later to prove the high-water mark of
pre-war British fascism. Cable Street also fully established a tactic
that British far-right groups have used ever since - marching
provocatively through a sensitive area, with police protection, and
playing the innocent when socialists turn out to riot. On this
occasion, no-one was in any doubt whose fault it all was, which is a
curious contrast with those Nationl Front marches of the 1970s when
the Tory press would try and claim that the violence was all the fault
of the Socialist Workers Party.
In 1936 Mosley married his longstanding mistress Diana Guinness, (nee
Mitford) in Germany. After the ceremony, the couple dined with Hitler,
Goebbels and other top Nazis. There is little evidence, however, that
Hitler and Mosley hit it off.
In the Abdication Crisis, the BU was firmly behind Edward VIII, having
long-since seen in him the kind of 'modern' monarch who would fit in
well with the new fascist order. There were also personal connections
between Mosley and Edward. His first wife's sister Alexandra Curzon,
known to her friends as 'Ba-Ba' had married Edward's best friend
'Fruity' Metcalfe. When she became an ardent Mosleyite

she was also one of mosley's mistresses....

But who's keeping score...they sound so much like Charles' set today....

Post by abelard

Post by PK
she got
nicknamed 'Ba-Ba Blackshirt'. Edward and Mosley were essentially part
of the same social set, had met several times and had carried on a
long correspondence about fascism.

--
web site at www.abelard.org - news and comment service, logic,
politics, ethics, education, etc >600,000 document calls yearly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[abelard]

Post by PK

Post by abelard
she was also one of mosley's mistresses....

But who's keeping score...they sound so much like Charles' set today....

you will be delighted to know he is alleged to have entered the nikkers
of big sister irene as well!
but this is usually described as 'a fling'....and not so bad as it was
before 'marrying' cimmie....cimmie plays the roll of 'victim' and died
romantically early.....

the commentaries are often more revealing than the behaviour that
'inspires' the 'writers' of the 'histories'.....
many of the set 'wrote' books on the subject....

an incestuous irresponsible group telling each other how interesting
they were as they let the empire go to the wall.....
the band played on as the titanic was sinking......

it would be well to look at current behaviour....
those who do not study history........

regards....

[Robert Henderson]

In article <gfBShVAYZgO$***@borve.demon.co.uk>, banana <***@REMOVE_T
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford

She, being a different type of totalitarian, namely a Stalinist. RH

's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

[banana]

Post by banana
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford

You misquote me. See below.

Post by banana
She, being a different type of totalitarian, namely a Stalinist. RH

I've got not time whatsoever for Stalinism. This is why I was careful to

Post by banana

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford's saying,
when 'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it
was a disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was
prison.

You must have known that you were misquoting me when you made the cut
after her surname and before the apostrophe.

Is whatever you believe not supportable without the use of such means?
We'll see whether or not you apologise.

[Robert Henderson]

In article <fV79DjAwrqO$***@borve.demon.co.uk>, banana <***@REMOVE_T
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

Post by banana

Post by banana
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford

You misquote me. See below.

Post by banana
She, being a different type of totalitarian, namely a Stalinist. RH

I've got not time whatsoever for Stalinism. This is why I was careful to

Post by banana

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford's saying,
when 'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it
was a disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was
prison.

You must have known that you were misquoting me when you made the cut
after her surname and before the apostrophe.
Is whatever you believe not supportable without the use of such means?
We'll see whether or not you apologise.

Quite bonkers. I did not alter your words, merely inserted a comment.
RH

[banana]

Post by banana
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

Post by banana

Post by banana
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford

You misquote me. See below.

Post by banana
She, being a different type of totalitarian, namely a Stalinist. RH

I've got not time whatsoever for Stalinism. This is why I was careful to

Post by banana

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford's saying,
when 'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it
was a disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was
prison.

You must have known that you were misquoting me when you made the cut
after her surname and before the apostrophe.
Is whatever you believe not supportable without the use of such means?
We'll see whether or not you apologise.

Quite bonkers. I did not alter your words, merely inserted a comment.

You quoted me as saying I always had great respect for Jessica Mitford.
What I actually said was I always had great respect for Jessica
Mitford's making of a specific statement.

You did change a word - you changed the case of 'Mitford' by leaving out
the possessive ending and the following noun phrase with which,
together, it formed the object of my sentence, i.e. what I actually said
I had great respect for.

[Robert Henderson]

In article <tkch$eApWLP$***@borve.demon.co.uk>, banana <***@REMOVE_T
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

Post by banana
You quoted me as saying I always had great respect for Jessica Mitford.
What I actually said was I always had great respect for Jessica
Mitford's making of a specific statement.
You did change a word - you changed the case of 'Mitford' by leaving out
the possessive ending and the following noun phrase with which,
together, it formed the object of my sentence, i.e. what I actually said
I had great respect for.

I didn't change anything I merely inserted a comment. Next! RH

[PK]

Post by banana
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford

She, being a different type of totalitarian, namely a Stalinist. RH

's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

Wasn't she a Communist in her youth?

Karen Martin

[julian]

Post by PK

Post by banana
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford

She, being a different type of totalitarian, namely a Stalinist. RH

's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

Wasn't she a Communist in her youth?
Karen Martin

=======================================================

If she was (and I'm not sure she was a party member), it was far less
notorious than her sister Unity's idolisation of Adolf Hitler. Not
exactly a family full of moderates shall we say.

[PK]

Post by julian

Post by PK

Post by banana
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford

She, being a different type of totalitarian, namely a Stalinist. RH

's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

Wasn't she a Communist in her youth?
Karen Martin

=======================================================
If she was (and I'm not sure she was a party member), it was far less
notorious than her sister Unity's idolisation of Adolf Hitler. Not
exactly a family full of moderates shall we say.

Even now their Very Names bring forth controversy...Their Fa's Mining
business is like something straight out of an Evelyn Waugh novel! ALL
their faces should Represent 'Eccentric' in the Oxford
dictionary...I'm researching your query 'bout a reconcilliation
between Jess and Di...

PK

[abelard]

Post by PK

Post by julian

Post by PK

Post by banana
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford

She, being a different type of totalitarian, namely a Stalinist. RH

's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

Wasn't she a Communist in her youth?
Karen Martin

=======================================================
If she was (and I'm not sure she was a party member), it was far less
notorious than her sister Unity's idolisation of Adolf Hitler. Not
exactly a family full of moderates shall we say.

Even now their Very Names bring forth controversy...Their Fa's Mining
business is like something straight out of an Evelyn Waugh novel! ALL
their faces should Represent 'Eccentric' in the Oxford
dictionary...I'm researching your query 'bout a reconcilliation
between Jess and Di...

answered in the other fred...
they met up at the death of nancy and maintained a truce....
'polite distance' and some sniping from jessica thence forward.

strangely, jessica's real emotional tie was too unity....
jessica had 'priciples'....which made it difficult to handle herself well.

[julian]

Post by abelard

Post by PK

Post by julian

Post by PK

Post by banana
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford

She, being a different type of totalitarian, namely a Stalinist. RH

's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

Wasn't she a Communist in her youth?
Karen Martin

=======================================================
If she was (and I'm not sure she was a party member), it was far less
notorious than her sister Unity's idolisation of Adolf Hitler. Not
exactly a family full of moderates shall we say.

Even now their Very Names bring forth controversy...Their Fa's Mining
business is like something straight out of an Evelyn Waugh novel! ALL
their faces should Represent 'Eccentric' in the Oxford
dictionary...I'm researching your query 'bout a reconcilliation
between Jess and Di...

answered in the other fred...
they met up at the death of nancy and maintained a truce....
'polite distance' and some sniping from jessica thence forward.
strangely, jessica's real emotional tie was too unity....
jessica had 'priciples'....which made it difficult to handle herself well.

==========================================

I have no idea why you keep describing Jessica as "strange" for her
ties to Unity--those were bonds of blood and youth that predated any
political distance between them. Why does everything--including
relationships between siblings-- have to be cast through a political
prism in your worldview? Jessica did indeed have principles, which
she rightly verbalised in saying Deborah belonged in prison.
Apparently HM's system of justice agreed with that. On the other
hand, where were Deborah's "principles" aside from putting the enemy
ahead of her own country?

Post by abelard
--
web site at www.abelard.org - news and comment service, logic,
politics, ethics, education, etc >600,000 document calls yearly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Atlantis Magazine]

Post by julian

Post by abelard

Post by PK

Post by julian

Post by PK

Post by banana
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford

She, being a different type of totalitarian, namely a Stalinist. RH

's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

Wasn't she a Communist in her youth?
Karen Martin

=======================================================
If she was (and I'm not sure she was a party member), it was far less
notorious than her sister Unity's idolisation of Adolf Hitler. Not
exactly a family full of moderates shall we say.

Even now their Very Names bring forth controversy...Their Fa's Mining
business is like something straight out of an Evelyn Waugh novel! ALL
their faces should Represent 'Eccentric' in the Oxford
dictionary...I'm researching your query 'bout a reconcilliation
between Jess and Di...

answered in the other fred...
they met up at the death of nancy and maintained a truce....
'polite distance' and some sniping from jessica thence forward.
strangely, jessica's real emotional tie was too unity....
jessica had 'priciples'....which made it difficult to handle herself well.

==========================================
I have no idea why you keep describing Jessica as "strange" for her
ties to Unity--those were bonds of blood and youth that predated any
political distance between them. Why does everything--including
relationships between siblings-- have to be cast through a political
prism in your worldview? Jessica did indeed have principles, which
she rightly verbalised in saying Deborah belonged in prison.
Apparently HM's system of justice agreed with that. On the other
hand, where were Deborah's "principles" aside from putting the enemy
ahead of her own country?

In "The Sisters," Mary Lovell shows that Jessica and Unity (Decca and Boud
in the family) grew apart as their political ideologies developed. Later
on, after Unity's attempted suicide, lengthy illness, and death, Jessica
declined to return home to say good-bye. I don't remember if it was to be a
good-bye at Unity's deathbed or at her funeral, but either way, Jessica said
something like, "I said good-bye to my Boud a long time ago."

And I think you must mean Diana, not Deborah.

[julian]

Post by julian

Post by abelard

Post by PK

Post by julian

Post by PK

Post by banana
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford

She, being a different type of totalitarian, namely a Stalinist.

RH

Post by julian

Post by abelard

Post by PK

Post by julian

Post by PK

Post by banana

's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it

was a

Post by julian

Post by abelard

Post by PK

Post by julian

Post by PK

Post by banana

disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was

prison.

Post by julian

Post by abelard

Post by PK

Post by julian

Post by PK
Wasn't she a Communist in her youth?
Karen Martin

=======================================================
If she was (and I'm not sure she was a party member), it was far less
notorious than her sister Unity's idolisation of Adolf Hitler. Not
exactly a family full of moderates shall we say.

Even now their Very Names bring forth controversy...Their Fa's Mining
business is like something straight out of an Evelyn Waugh novel! ALL
their faces should Represent 'Eccentric' in the Oxford
dictionary...I'm researching your query 'bout a reconcilliation
between Jess and Di...

answered in the other fred...
they met up at the death of nancy and maintained a truce....
'polite distance' and some sniping from jessica thence forward.
strangely, jessica's real emotional tie was too unity....
jessica had 'priciples'....which made it difficult to handle herself

well.

Post by julian
==========================================
I have no idea why you keep describing Jessica as "strange" for her
ties to Unity--those were bonds of blood and youth that predated any
political distance between them. Why does everything--including
relationships between siblings-- have to be cast through a political
prism in your worldview? Jessica did indeed have principles, which
she rightly verbalised in saying Deborah belonged in prison.
Apparently HM's system of justice agreed with that. On the other
hand, where were Deborah's "principles" aside from putting the enemy
ahead of her own country?

In "The Sisters," Mary Lovell shows that Jessica and Unity (Decca and Boud
in the family) grew apart as their political ideologies developed. Later
on, after Unity's attempted suicide, lengthy illness, and death, Jessica
declined to return home to say good-bye. I don't remember if it was to be a
good-bye at Unity's deathbed or at her funeral, but either way, Jessica said
something like, "I said good-bye to my Boud a long time ago."
And I think you must mean Diana, not Deborah.

-------------------------------------------
I did mean Diana, but I didn't mean Unity and I certainly wasn't posting to you.

[abelard]

Post by julian
I have no idea why you keep describing Jessica as "strange"

then you can ask....

Post by julian
for her
ties to Unity--those were bonds of blood and youth that predated any
political distance between them. Why does everything--including
relationships between siblings-- have to be cast through a political
prism in your worldview?

or perhaps you prefer idiotic guesses....

Post by julian
Jessica did indeed have principles, which
she rightly verbalised in saying Deborah belonged in prison.

no...diana....

Post by julian
Apparently HM's system of justice agreed with that.

you might examine what you mean by 'justice'....
they were held without charge and without trial....

Post by julian
On the other
hand, where were Deborah's "principles" aside from putting the enemy
ahead of her own country?

there is no serious evidence of that....

perhaps you would be better doing a little thinking...if possible

[PK]

Post by abelard

Post by PK

Post by julian

Post by PK

Post by banana
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford

She, being a different type of totalitarian, namely a Stalinist. RH

's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

Wasn't she a Communist in her youth?
Karen Martin

=======================================================
If she was (and I'm not sure she was a party member), it was far less
notorious than her sister Unity's idolisation of Adolf Hitler. Not
exactly a family full of moderates shall we say.

Even now their Very Names bring forth controversy...Their Fa's Mining
business is like something straight out of an Evelyn Waugh novel! ALL
their faces should Represent 'Eccentric' in the Oxford
dictionary...I'm researching your query 'bout a reconcilliation
between Jess and Di...

answered in the other fred...
they met up at the death of nancy and maintained a truce....
'polite distance' and some sniping from jessica thence forward.
strangely, jessica's real emotional tie was too unity....
jessica had 'priciples'....which made it difficult to handle herself well.
--

Thank you. I knew part of the answer but couldn't recall the details.
Many sensitive people, such as you describe Jessica, become authors.
As a whole the Relesdales were a volatile family. Debo is no
exception. It was very amusing when she quipped ,'She's surveying her
territory' at the tiara exhibition at the V & A in reference to Mrs.
Parker Bowles. Debo and the Duke were really quite miffed when
Camrotter was allowed to jump the queue and they had been waiting ages
for the tour to commence.

KAren Martin

Post by abelard
web site at www.abelard.org - news and comment service, logic,
politics, ethics, education, etc >600,000 document calls yearly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[banana]

In article <***@posting.google.com>, PK <***@e-
garfield.com> writes

news:<TRcu4KA3Sl

Post by banana
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford

She, being a different type of totalitarian, namely a Stalinist. RH

's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

Wasn't she a Communist in her youth?

Assuming you mean Jessica, she was a member of the (Stalinist)
'Communist' Party in the US after WW2. I am not sure what she did in
Spain during the war there, apart from the fact that she was on the
Republican side. I suspect that if she had been teamed up with the POUM
(sister party of the ILP) or the anarchists I should already know about
it, therefore it would not surprise me if she was chums with the
Stalinists ('Communist' Party) there too, or possibly the 'Socialist'
Party.

[abelard]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:19:12 +0100, banana

garfield.com> writes

news:<TRcu4KA3Sl

Post by banana
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford

She, being a different type of totalitarian, namely a Stalinist. RH

's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

Wasn't she a Communist in her youth?

Assuming you mean Jessica, she was a member of the (Stalinist)
'Communist' Party in the US after WW2. I am not sure what she did in
Spain during the war there, apart from the fact that she was on the
Republican side. I suspect that if she had been teamed up with the POUM
(sister party of the ILP) or the anarchists I should already know about
it, therefore it would not surprise me if she was chums with the
Stalinists ('Communist' Party) there too, or possibly the 'Socialist'
Party.

she pissed around for a few days with a boyfriend with whom
she had eloped...both making out as 'reporters'.....
they became an embarrassment to the uk consulate and
were rapidly shipped out of the area (her family kicking up
a fuss and putting pressure on the establishment)
the boy friend eventually wrote a book on the subject....they
married...shipped out to america....he was killed early in the
war....another patriot.....

[Robert Henderson]

In article <***@posting.google.com>, PK <***@e-
garfield.com> writes

Thanks muchly for the crash refresher course! I think her book, 'The
American Way of Death' was the First Real Expose of private enterprise
in this country.
When she wrote that if a tall man didn't fit in the coffin, they
simply chopped off his legs until they could squench him in and then
pinned his trousers under and dummied up his shoes..the book's sales
were sensational^^^^And now, there's 'The American Way of Death -

Read Evelyn Waugh's The loved one. RH

[PK]

garfield.com> writes

Thanks muchly for the crash refresher course! I think her book, 'The
American Way of Death' was the First Real Expose of private enterprise
in this country.
When she wrote that if a tall man didn't fit in the coffin, they
simply chopped off his legs until they could squench him in and then
pinned his trousers under and dummied up his shoes..the book's sales
were sensational^^^^And now, there's 'The American Way of Death -

Read Evelyn Waugh's The loved one. RH

Oh I have and I've seen the film, starring Liberace, of all people. =)

Karen Martin

[abelard]

Thanks muchly for the crash refresher course! I think her book, 'The
American Way of Death' was the First Real Expose of private enterprise
in this country.

there is much earlier stuff on the trusts....standard oil etc.....
this might interest you
http://www.abelard.org/corporate.htm
the problem is endemic....

"Kentucky bookbinder and printer, Timothy Hawley Books, offers a line
of what it calls bibliocadavers -- handsomely bound volumes whose
blank or printed pages are created from a pulp containing the ashes of
a loved one. The advent of bibliocadavers will, if nothing else, add a
new facet to the idea of a book's being remaindered.

http://www.abelard.org/news/archive-behaviour1.htm#behint180402
some entrepreneurial type is attempting to start a business incorporating
the remains of your beloved into 'art' work to your 'taste'....the
word used is 'cremains'! they apparently have plans to open a chain!
i like the idea of having poochie stuffed no mess, no noise, no smell,
no feeding and no walkies....much better than the real think....
next i'll start wondering about some posters! must go.....

in britain we have cardboard substitutes available.....
there was a joke in the mitford family that every (similar) cheap box
....decca (jessica) got a commission....she was seriously hated by
the rip off death industry.....

regards.

[Robert Henderson]

In article <***@posting.google.com>, PK <***@e-
garfield.com> writes

Post by PK

Post by banana
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford

She, being a different type of totalitarian, namely a Stalinist. RH

's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

Wasn't she a Communist in her youth?

She remained a hardline red to till the day she died. RH

Post by PK
Karen Martin

[abelard]

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:35:20 +0100, banana

When she was jailed during the war, fascist 'Lady' Mosley was allowed to
keep her SERVANTS in prison. She was a cousin of Churchill. I doubt the
jailers checked her hair for lice either.

perhaps you should read her biography of those times.....
'a life of contrasts'....it may be self serving but i get no impression
it was deliberately dishonest.....
her record bears no relationship to your claims....

where did you get your notion?
i have seen no such claim anywhere serious....

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

yeah, you would....
the only one of the mitford sisters with serious ability was nancy....
the rest were mostly insubstantial butterflies.....
though jessica was active in the civil rights movement in america...
why do you imagine they chose their causes with any more depth
or consideration than they chose their wardrobes....
you're not one of the commie uncle toms are you :-)
(i really do wish i thought i could dispense with that smiley!)

regards....

[banana]

Post by abelard
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:35:20 +0100, banana

When she was jailed during the war, fascist 'Lady' Mosley was allowed to
keep her SERVANTS in prison. She was a cousin of Churchill. I doubt the
jailers checked her hair for lice either.

perhaps you should read her biography of those times.....
'a life of contrasts'....it may be self serving but i get no impression
it was deliberately dishonest.....
her record bears no relationship to your claims....
where did you get your notion?
i have seen no such claim anywhere serious....

It's a long time since I've read stuff on this. I've read Oswald
Mosley's 'My Life' and I also had a friend who wrote her doctoral thesis
on struggles in the UK in the early 1940s and knew loads about the
Mosleys - she was one of the people campaigning (as was Diana Mosley!)
for the release of the government's papers concerning Mosley, the BUF,
etc.

I will look for some references to the allegation that she was waited on
by servants in Holloway prison. From what I recall it was well known and
I would not be convinced to the contrary by her not mentioning it
('bears no relationship' is a rather vague phrase) in her own account.

Post by abelard

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

yeah, you would....
the only one of the mitford sisters with serious ability was nancy....
the rest were mostly insubstantial butterflies.....

I've always considered it beneath me to discuss 'the Mitford sisters' -
what interest do they have as a group?

Post by abelard
though jessica was active in the civil rights movement in america...
why do you imagine they chose their causes with any more depth
or consideration than they chose their wardrobes....
you're not one of the commie uncle toms are you :-)
(i really do wish i thought i could dispense with that smiley!)

You should try to get the idea that 'communism' means 'Moscow centre
plus a network of agents and fellow travellers' out of your head. I
would have had major disagreements with both Jessica Mitford and Kim
Philby, but I believe in credit where it's due, and this side of the
revolution I do not expect miracles from people from upper-class
backgrounds. Regarding her sister's release from prison, Jessica Mitford
spoke honourably and well.

[banana]

In article <EYKrQjA1w3O$***@borve.demon.co.uk>, banana <***@REMOVE_T
HIS.borve.demon.co.uk> writes

Post by banana

Post by abelard
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:35:20 +0100, banana

When she was jailed during the war, fascist 'Lady' Mosley was allowed to
keep her SERVANTS in prison. She was a cousin of Churchill. I doubt the
jailers checked her hair for lice either.

perhaps you should read her biography of those times.....
'a life of contrasts'....it may be self serving but i get no impression
it was deliberately dishonest.....
her record bears no relationship to your claims....
where did you get your notion?
i have seen no such claim anywhere serious....

It's a long time since I've read stuff on this. I've read Oswald
Mosley's 'My Life' and I also had a friend who wrote her doctoral thesis
on struggles in the UK in the early 1940s and knew loads about the
Mosleys - she was one of the people campaigning (as was Diana Mosley!)
for the release of the government's papers concerning Mosley, the BUF,
etc.

I should stress that I try to have a good grasp of whether or not people
are conscientious with facts (rather than just saying stuff to look
good), and on this basis I am ready to believe what some people tell me.

Post by banana
I will look for some references to the allegation that she was waited on
by servants in Holloway prison. From what I recall it was well known and
I would not be convinced to the contrary by her not mentioning it
('bears no relationship' is a rather vague phrase) in her own account.

[abelard]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:10:29 +0100, banana

Post by banana

Post by abelard
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:35:20 +0100, banana

When she was jailed during the war, fascist 'Lady' Mosley was allowed to
keep her SERVANTS in prison. She was a cousin of Churchill. I doubt the
jailers checked her hair for lice either.

perhaps you should read her biography of those times.....
'a life of contrasts'....it may be self serving but i get no impression
it was deliberately dishonest.....
her record bears no relationship to your claims....
where did you get your notion?
i have seen no such claim anywhere serious....

It's a long time since I've read stuff on this. I've read Oswald
Mosley's 'My Life' and I also had a friend who wrote her doctoral thesis
on struggles in the UK in the early 1940s and knew loads about the
Mosleys - she was one of the people campaigning (as was Diana Mosley!)
for the release of the government's papers concerning Mosley, the BUF,
etc.
I will look for some references to the allegation that she was waited on
by servants in Holloway prison. From what I recall it was well known and
I would not be convinced to the contrary by her not mentioning it
('bears no relationship' is a rather vague phrase) in her own account.

her report reads as genuine....i believe nothing....
your statement was a bald claim...

Post by banana

Post by abelard

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

yeah, you would....
the only one of the mitford sisters with serious ability was nancy....
the rest were mostly insubstantial butterflies.....

I've always considered it beneath me to discuss 'the Mitford sisters' -
what interest do they have as a group?

they are social background to understanding the mind of hitler
and the 'slackness' of british culture at the time.....

my main concern has been to understand how 'it' ever happened...
the study of the british 'ruling' classes iimv germane...

Post by banana

Post by abelard
though jessica was active in the civil rights movement in america...
why do you imagine they chose their causes with any more depth
or consideration than they chose their wardrobes....
you're not one of the commie uncle toms are you :-)
(i really do wish i thought i could dispense with that smiley!)

You should try to get the idea that 'communism' means 'Moscow centre
plus a network of agents and fellow travellers' out of your head.

oh no...i rather like it there....it troubles socialists....and maybe even
makes the odd one think....
there is more joy in heaven!

Post by banana
I
would have had major disagreements with both Jessica Mitford and Kim
Philby, but I believe in credit where it's due, and this side of the
revolution I do not expect miracles from people from upper-class
backgrounds. Regarding her sister's release from prison, Jessica Mitford
spoke honourably and well.

a point of view.....

i quote you....

Post by banana
I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

i am unimpressed by a statement that depersonalises her admittedly
fairly evenly empty headed sister....
i might as well say the best place for all socialists is in prison.....

the imprisonment of both of them without trial troubled even churchill....
but some socialists wanted it....and then there were, then as now,
our delightful media....
i expect more judgement and detachment from you my boy....
though that is much to wish from a socialist.....

regards....

[banana]

Post by abelard
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:10:29 +0100, banana

Post by banana

Post by abelard
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:35:20 +0100, banana

When she was jailed during the war, fascist 'Lady' Mosley was allowed to
keep her SERVANTS in prison. She was a cousin of Churchill. I doubt the
jailers checked her hair for lice either.

perhaps you should read her biography of those times.....
'a life of contrasts'....it may be self serving but i get no impression
it was deliberately dishonest.....
her record bears no relationship to your claims....
where did you get your notion?
i have seen no such claim anywhere serious....

It's a long time since I've read stuff on this. I've read Oswald
Mosley's 'My Life' and I also had a friend who wrote her doctoral thesis
on struggles in the UK in the early 1940s and knew loads about the
Mosleys - she was one of the people campaigning (as was Diana Mosley!)
for the release of the government's papers concerning Mosley, the BUF,
etc.
I will look for some references to the allegation that she was waited on
by servants in Holloway prison. From what I recall it was well known and
I would not be convinced to the contrary by her not mentioning it
('bears no relationship' is a rather vague phrase) in her own account.

her report reads as genuine....i believe nothing....

Very postmodern.

Post by abelard
your statement was a bald claim...

Today's 'Guardian' obituary states that when she and her husband were in
Holloway prison, they were worked for by sex offenders as domestic
servants. See my other post (Message-ID:
<rT$QCiAhf8O$***@borve.demon.co.uk>).

<http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,3604,1018199,00.html>

<snip>

Post by abelard

Post by banana
I've always considered it beneath me to discuss 'the Mitford sisters' -
what interest do they have as a group?

they are social background to understanding the mind of hitler
and the 'slackness' of british culture at the time.....
my main concern has been to understand how 'it' ever happened...

The mass killing of prisoners by the Nazis?

Post by abelard
the study of the british 'ruling' classes iimv germane...

OK, I'm sure you can and do get something out of it. Just that I have
met too many snobs who say 'oh the Mitford sisters' followed by
content-free comments, as if knowing what is or was 'U' and 'Non-U' is
of great value.

Post by abelard

Post by banana

Post by abelard
though jessica was active in the civil rights movement in america...
why do you imagine they chose their causes with any more depth
or consideration than they chose their wardrobes....
you're not one of the commie uncle toms are you :-)
(i really do wish i thought i could dispense with that smiley!)

You should try to get the idea that 'communism' means 'Moscow centre
plus a network of agents and fellow travellers' out of your head.

oh no...i rather like it there....it troubles socialists....and maybe even
makes the odd one think....
there is more joy in heaven!

It does not become you to dance ironically to polish what is basically
laziness! Of course it 'troubles' people when their outlook is
calumnied.

[abelard]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:24:22 +0100, banana

Post by banana
Today's 'Guardian' obituary states that when she and her husband were in
Holloway prison, they were worked for by sex offenders as domestic
<http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,3604,1018199,00.html>

you sure select your sources....

'the authorities even sent two convicts to swab the stair case. 'i am
sending sex offenders', said miss davies [a warder], they are
clean and honest' (source 'the house of mitford', j. & c. guinness...
j. guinness visited them in prison as a young fellow)
this was towards the end of their incarceration after most of the
other internees had long been released.....

re other daft statements in your other posts....
they were not in a house....

they were in a preventative detention block....internees were kept
separate from other prisoners because they were political prisoners...
this arrangement occurred by the time there were only two couples left
towards the end of their 3 1/2 years imprisonment without charge.
again from the guinnesses....'each couple had what was in effect a
small flat consisting of three cells, kitchen and bathroom.'....
diana is recorded as doing the cooking from prison rations and
what the internees grew in prison gardens...so much for your 'servants'

which you first referred to in these terms....

Post by banana
When she was jailed during the war, fascist 'Lady' Mosley was allowed to
keep her SERVANTS in prison. She was a cousin of Churchill. I doubt the
jailers checked her hair for lice either.

you clearly are unaware of the disgusting conditions they were kept
in for much of their time....in fact you seem unaware of the majority
of the background.....
but you are more than prepared to vent your bile....and when shown to
be posting drivel, to then do everything in your power to avoid
admitting your multiple errors....
you are not detached...you are selling an agenda and appear to
have little in the way of scruples as to how you sell it.....

little different from the trash media of the time...
you stated the libel was related to diana...it wasn't...it was mostly
related to mosley....from the 'people'...
'every morning his paid batman delivers three newspapers to the door
of his master's cell. breakfast, dinner and tea arrive by
car....mosley fortifies himself with alternative bottles of red and
white wine daily. he calls occasionally for a bottle of champagne....
he selects a different smartly cut lounge suit every week. his shirts
and silk underwear are laundered in mayfair'

the reality according to j. & c.....>
bearded and undernourished in his oldest corduroys, locked in his bug
infested cell for 21 hours out of every 24....
(several papers were forced to pay damages for their lies...)
but of course both you and the groaniad will no longer be sued for
publishing falsehoods because they are both ded.....

incidentally, they were probably eventually released because of fears
mosley might die in prison and become a martyr....

Post by banana

Post by abelard

Post by banana
I've always considered it beneath me to discuss 'the Mitford sisters' -
what interest do they have as a group?

they are social background to understanding the mind of hitler
and the 'slackness' of british culture at the time.....
my main concern has been to understand how 'it' ever happened...

The mass killing of prisoners by the Nazis?

don't be ridiculous.

Post by banana

Post by abelard
the study of the british 'ruling' classes iimv germane...

OK, I'm sure you can and do get something out of it. Just that I have
met too many snobs who say 'oh the Mitford sisters' followed by
content-free comments, as if knowing what is or was 'U' and 'Non-U' is
of great value.

it was funny!

Post by banana

Post by abelard

Post by banana

Post by abelard
though jessica was active in the civil rights movement in america...
why do you imagine they chose their causes with any more depth
or consideration than they chose their wardrobes....
you're not one of the commie uncle toms are you :-)
(i really do wish i thought i could dispense with that smiley!)

You should try to get the idea that 'communism' means 'Moscow centre
plus a network of agents and fellow travellers' out of your head.

oh no...i rather like it there....it troubles socialists....and maybe even
makes the odd one think....
there is more joy in heaven!

It does not become you to dance ironically to polish what is basically
laziness! Of course it 'troubles' people when their outlook is
calumnied.

from you who continue to post obviously incorrect statements.....

you're a socialist....mosley wanted a revolution....
hitler wanted a revolution...you want a revolution.....

it's not me that wants a revolution!

i will be more impressed when i see differences....
you just rail against your rival would be dick takers.....
i want you nowhere near power....

as nancy mitford said after her experiences at perpignan, attending to
the needs of the half million or so refugees from the conflict between
your would be revolutionaries and dick takers in spain.....
'there isn't a pin to put between the nazis and bolshies'....'if one is a
jew one prefers one & if an aristocrat the other, that's all as far
as i can see. *fiends!* [emphasis mitford's]
from a letter in 'love from nancy' by charlotte mosley (nee marten).
'but then nancy had more intelligence than the rest of the sorry crew'....

as for the crap about diana never regretting....
....'her relationship with hitler had ruined her life. and i think it
ruined your father's'....to nicholas mosley reported by lovel
in 'the sisters'.....

she refused to lie about her feelings or her impressions at the time....
it makes her a more useful source than revisionist historians and
those with different axes to grind....

to finish i quote diana....
"this is typical of many people who reject truth in even the most trivial
matters if it conflicts with a prejudice. it applies not only to
enthusiasts but to some who should know better, including university
dons who write 'history'. they are so carried away by their likes
and dislikes that they leave the path of truth. it is all of a piece
with literary critics who cannot bring themselves to praise a book,
even a novel, written by a political opponent. this intellectual
dishonesty makes the critics themselves look foolish...." (p.271)

in answer to another of your sideswipe comments...it is this quality that
makes her a useful source where other merely promote spin......

of course she was very shallow, but she did have her own standards.....
traits that pervaded the family....including jessica (decca).
as stated, only nancy had serious depth.....

most of the culture of that time was shallow....nothing much changes...
although the generalised political naivete of the times is now much less
marked, very few supposedly intelligent people still claim to be
socialists.....
so i suppose humans do learn even if at a glacial rate.....

regards....you're funny!

[banana]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:33:21 +0100, banana

Post by banana

Post by abelard
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:35:20 +0100, banana

<snip>

Post by banana
I will look for some references to the allegation that she was waited
on by servants in Holloway prison. From what I recall it was well known
and I would not be convinced to the contrary by her not mentioning it
('bears no relationship' is a rather vague phrase) in her own account.

Here you go, ab, it's in the obituary in today's 'Guardian'. When her
husband was sent to Holloway to join her (for those who don't know
already, Holloway is a women's prison; Oswald Mosley had until then been
interned in Brixton), they lived together in a small house inside the
<http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,3604,1018199,00.html>
It is true that this is not quite the same as keeping the same domestic
servants who had waited on these parasites on the outside, but it is
still having servants.

do you know anything of prison conditions and privileges such as
being allowed out of cells to do 'jobs'?

Yes, and that's not relevant. At the time we are talking about, the
Mosleys lived in a *house* inside the walls of Holloway prison, and they
had other prisoners (who really would have lived in cells) work for them
as their domestic servants.

She also got her port sent in from Harrods. Aww
does she tell it differently in her autobiography?

her reports are straight-forward....very little in the way of
self-pity....some resentment at the behaviour of 'authority'.....

***BEGIN EXTRACT***
Churchill granted her request that the Mosleys be imprisoned together in
a small house inside Holloway walls. The couple had quiet, clean sex
offenders as domestics; they raised and cooked vegetables, aubergines
and fraises des bois besides cabbages, listened to records, read Racine,
sunbathed in their tiny yard.
***END EXTRACT***

ah, you don't appreciate that they were held without trial......

I am aware of Defence Regulation 18b. (For the record, I am also aware
of Defence Regulation 58a that allowed the Labour Minister to ban
strikes, and the later Order 1305 that allowed the Labour Minister to
refer any dispute to binding arbitration - i.e. any problems with the
result and you were fined or put in prison - see the Kent coalminers).
Meanwhile the prisoners at Guantanamo are being held without even being
charged, let alone tried, and probably without having even been formally
arrested and 'read their rights', although that matters little because
the US judiciary has ruled that US law doesn't govern anything the US
authorities do to them in Guantanamo - and IIANM you have said you think
it's best in the circumstances that they should be killed (ah,
pragmatism - to which should one should usually reply 'and whose
expediency are we talking about?')

Anyway...the Mosleys had servants when they were in prison. I was right
about that. If the impression she gives in her autobiography encourages
an inference to the contrary, it is misleading.

you probably also don't appreciate the precarious health state of mosley..
she was sometimes very ill....
most of the other political internees had been released eons previously...
the conditions were originally disgusting (as they were for other
prisoners in the enlightened isle...they were slowly mitigated)

Your point is?

Do you 'appreciate' that a large proportion of prisoners at any one time
are ill? Few get waited on by servants.

It has, however, occurred to me before now to wonder who did the laundry
for the paramilitary bosses in prisons in Northern Ireland. Dirty
washing is presumably not allowed to cross the denominational divide,
possibly not even the organisational divide. And I don't imagine the
bosses will have nipped off between meetings with Mo Mowlam to wring out
their knickers. I strongly suspect the lower down members of the
paramilitary orgs had to do the laundry for the higher-ups. See,
hierarchy has a unified nature. But I digress a little...

you source is the groaniad...does that tell you nothing?
it's called selective reporting....i do not regard it as honest...

<rare sarcasm>
Yes, it's the Manchester/London version of 'Pravda', you know, run by a
lot of pinkos and only read by 'commie' school-teachers when they're not
looking after mixed-gender kids in welfare-funded council flats.
</rare sarcasm>
For goodness sake, make more effort!

i suggest you read up instead of quoting out of context selections
designed to push the propagandist tripe beloved of the 'press'....
'news'papers of the time had to pay damages to the mosleys for
comments like that while they were interned!

Yes, I know that one at least did, although I'm not sure which one. It
would be fitting if it were the 'Daily Mail'. You of course are citing
the libel fact out of context. That referred to allegations regarding
her conditions before he joined her.

They had servants.

get this through your dopey head...they were charged with no crime!

Goodness, why are you getting so nasty? I didn't say that they were
charged with any crime, did I? I know very well that they weren't!

Do you think that the fact that they were charged with no crime means
that they weren't waited on by servants in prison - is that it?

mosley arrested 23-5-40, diana arrested late june (she had an 11
week old baby)

I would find horrendous any idea that the baby should have been made to
suffer, but as for the mother, when she and other well-connected types
in the BUF were egging on the cracking of Jews' heads in the East End,
did they draw a clear line against violence against parents of young
children?

may 1940...18 month separated...him in brixton....released nov 43....

You missed...after the 18 months separation, he moved into a house with
her in the grounds of Holloway prison, where they stayed, waited on by
servants, until their release.

(Nelson Mandela, BTW, long-time SIS asset whose daughter married
royalty, lived in a posh house in the grounds of a prison in South
Africa for a period during the later part of his detention).

on their release....
shaw....
"i think this mosley panic shameful....even if mosley were in rude
health, it was high time to release him with apologies for letting him
frighten us into scrapping the habeas corpus act. mr. morrison has
not justified the outrageous conditions - the gag in mosley's mouth
and the seven mile leg iron. we are still afraid to let mosley defend
himself and having produced the ridiculous situation in which we may
buy hitler's mein kampf in any bookshop in britain, but may not buy
ten line written by mosley"
mosley on the invasion of the low countries and france issued
this statement printed 9-5-40
"according to the press, stories concerning the invasion of britain are
being circulated....in such an event every member of the british union
would be at the disposal of the nation. every on of us would resist
the foreign invader with all that is in us. however rotten the
existing government, and however much we detested its policies,
we would throw ourselves into the effort of a united nation until the
foreigner was driven from our soil. in such a situation no doubt
exists concerning the attitude of the british union."

So what? What he says here is revolting British-nationalist shit.

[abelard]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:43:30 +0100, banana

Post by banana
You missed...after the 18 months separation, he moved into a house with
her in the grounds of Holloway prison, where they stayed, waited on by
servants, until their release.

yes dear...

Post by banana
(Nelson Mandela, BTW, long-time SIS asset whose daughter married
royalty, lived in a posh house in the grounds of a prison in South
Africa for a period during the later part of his detention).

you're squirming, attempting to justify your comments
and attempting to shift ground, attempting to change the
subject etc.......
as if this had one thing to do with mandela!!

i will possibly re-read more detail later.....

regards...

[abelard]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:43:03 +0100, banana

Post by abelard
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:43:30 +0100, banana

Post by banana
You missed...after the 18 months separation, he moved into a house with
her in the grounds of Holloway prison, where they stayed, waited on by
servants, until their release.

yes dear...

Post by banana
(Nelson Mandela, BTW, long-time SIS asset whose daughter married
royalty, lived in a posh house in the grounds of a prison in South
Africa for a period during the later part of his detention).

you're squirming, attempting to justify your comments
and attempting to shift ground, attempting to change the
subject etc.......

You mentioned that the Mosleys hadn't been charged, which wasn't to do
with whether or not they had servants. Nor was the fact that Mosley said
his fascists would fight against any German invasion of the UK. What's
sauce for the goose... The servants issue has been resolved - they had
them.

Post by abelard
as if this had one thing to do with mandela!!

I somehow doubt that he wrung out his own knickers in that posh house in
the prison compound either.

Post by abelard
i will possibly re-read more detail later.....

You...you *tease*! :-)

such are the wages of impulsiveness....

regards....

[abelard]

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:35:20 +0100, banana

When she was jailed during the war, fascist 'Lady' Mosley was allowed to
keep her SERVANTS in prison. She was a cousin of Churchill. I doubt the
jailers checked her hair for lice either.

perhaps you should read her biography of those times.....
'a life of contrasts'....it may be self serving but i get no impression
it was deliberately dishonest.....
her record bears no relationship to your claims....

where did you get your notion?
i have seen no such claim anywhere serious....

I always had great respect for her sister Jessica Mitford's saying, when
'Lady' Mosley and her husband were released from jail, that it was a
disgrace and that the best place for fascists like her was prison.

yeah, you would....
the only one of the mitford sisters with serious ability was nancy....
the rest were mostly insubstantial butterflies.....
though jessica was active in the civil rights movement in america...
why do you imagine they chose their causes with any more depth
or consideration than they chose their wardrobes....
you're not one of the commie uncle toms are you :-)
(i really do wish i thought i could dispense with that smiley!)

regards....