Is it Cha cha cha or Son Montuno

[kaysee]

Or is there no difference?

I was just listening to Tito Puente's Dance Mania I CD (actually I've been
listening to it off and on all week) and I noticed that all the songs that I
think of as chachacha are labeled son montuno!

In fact:
1. El Cayuco - Son Montuno
2. Complicación - Guaguanco
3. 3-D Mambo
4. Llego Miján - Son Montuno
5. Cuando te vea - Guaguanco
6. Hong Kong Mambo
7. Mambo Gozón
8. Mi chiquita quiere bembé - Cha cha cha Bembé
9. Varsity Drag
10. Estoy siempre junto a tí - Bolero
11. Agua limpia todo - Guaguanco
12. Saca tu mujer - Guaracha

(The unlabeled ones are all mambos.)

The guaguancos all play like modern salsa to me, while the mambos sound
mostly dated, or seem to lean towards latin jazz. But the son montunos are
cha cha chas! (They actually have the word[s] chachacha sung by the coro in
them.)

What's up with that? Is this why my instinctive reaction to any son montuno
I hear is to chachacha?


kaysee
--
World Traveller in Pursuit of Dancing

[Keith Johnson]

Post by kaysee
Or is there no difference?

There is most certainly a difference.

Post by kaysee
I was just listening to Tito Puente's Dance Mania I CD (actually I've been
listening to it off and on all week) and I noticed that all the songs that I
think of as chachacha are labeled son montuno!

I don't know this particular album, but there are usually several key
differences between cha cha chá and son montuno:-

1. Tempo - cha cha chá is often slower than son montuno, the latter
being easier to salsa to.

2. Bass patterns - cha cha chá bass pattern generally involves playing
on the '1' of the bar - typically

(1)dumm - di dummmm - di di (1)dumm - di dummmm - di di etc.

In son montuno the bass will usually play a tumbao on the 2+ and 4
beats, anticipating the chord changes and driving the rhythm forwards.
The bass doesn't usually play on the first beat of the bar, which often
confuses some dancers (and musicians!).

3. Piano patterns - in a cha cha chá the piano usually plays a
syncopated 2-bar block chord pattern, or alternatively vamps with the
right hand playing on beats 1 and 3 and the left hand playing every
off-beat eighth-note. In a son montuno the piano generally plays the
syncopated montuno pattern with both hands in octaves.

4. Bell patterns - in a cha cha chá the main bell pattern is a simple
1-2-3-4 on the beat pattern, usually played by the timbales player. In a
son montuno, the dominant bell pattern in the montuno section will be
the (1)dum - dee - dum - di di (1)dum - di di - dum - di di pattern
(example in 2-3 clave), which is played by the bongo player, while the
timbales player plays a complementing mambo bell pattern.

There are numerous other small differences, but the above alone
generally make it totally obvious to an experienced player/listener
which is being played.

Post by kaysee
The guaguancos all play like modern salsa to me,

Guaguanco is a form of rumba (Cuban folkloric street dance) music, which
should sound nothing at all like salsa. Do you mean guaracha?

Post by kaysee
while the mambos sound mostly dated, or seem to lean towards latin jazz.

Mambo as a craze had its time, and most period mambo tunes do sound
dated nowadays. However, you should be aware that there are several
definitions of the word "mambo" in the context of Afro-Cuban music:-

- the dance popularised in the 1940s-50s based on the son montuno, but
generally faster and often with a "straighter" more on the beat bass
pattern.

- the section in a salsa arrangement, usually following the montuno
and/or coro-pregon section, which often introduces new harmonic material
and establishes a fresh groove for improvisation.

- the patterns played by the horns over the mambo section of the
arrangement, usually repeated 4x.

Post by kaysee
But the son montunos are cha cha chas! (They actually have the word[s]
chachacha sung by the coro in them.)

Well - they may or may not be on that album. I don't know - but this is
not a generalisation you should be making - they are clearly two
distinct things. The cha cha chá evolved from a section in the danzón,
and being a simplification of this was generally regarded as easier to
dance for the visiting Americans. Son montuno evolved from son music,
when musicians from the mountains would come down into the villages and
join the son players, injecting new rhythms in the form of a montuno
section into the music.

Keith

[kaysee]

Comments below.

Post by Keith Johnson

Post by kaysee
Or is there no difference?

There is most certainly a difference.

Post by kaysee
I was just listening to Tito Puente's Dance Mania I CD (actually I've been
listening to it off and on all week) and I noticed that all the songs that I
think of as chachacha are labeled son montuno!

I don't know this particular album, but there are usually several key
differences between cha cha chá and son montuno:-
1. Tempo - cha cha chá is often slower than son montuno, the latter
being easier to salsa to.

I have to admit that I haven't found true son montunos all that notably
faster than the cha cha chas. Those that have struck me as being son have
usually had a different sound, more so than a pace.

Post by Keith Johnson
2. Bass patterns - cha cha chá bass pattern generally involves playing

<snip>

Post by Keith Johnson
3. Piano patterns - in a cha cha chá the piano usually plays a

<snip>

Post by Keith Johnson
4. Bell patterns - in a cha cha chá the main bell pattern is a simple

<snip>

Post by Keith Johnson
There are numerous other small differences, but the above alone
generally make it totally obvious to an experienced player/listener
which is being played.

These I can see as potential identifiers, and I'll play through a few songs
to see if I pick up on any of them.

Post by Keith Johnson

Post by kaysee
The guaguancos all play like modern salsa to me,

Guaguanco is a form of rumba (Cuban folkloric street dance) music, which
should sound nothing at all like salsa. Do you mean guaracha?

I'm pretty familiar with guagaunco, which has not stopped me dancing salsa
to it in the past <g>. My guaguanco dancing is not of the best, I fear,
though it has improved with limited practice. The songs labeled guagaunco
on that particular album I mentioned don't sound much like the folkloric
stuff I've heard over the years, though perhaps the rumba clave is evident.

Post by Keith Johnson

Post by kaysee
while the mambos sound mostly dated, or seem to lean towards latin jazz.

Mambo as a craze had its time, and most period mambo tunes do sound
dated nowadays. However, you should be aware that there are several
definitions of the word "mambo" in the context of Afro-Cuban music:-

<snip>

I'm also familiar with the different meanings of mambo, and here was using
it in the historical sense.

Post by Keith Johnson

Post by kaysee
But the son montunos are cha cha chas! (They actually have the word[s]
chachacha sung by the coro in them.)

Well - they may or may not be on that album. I don't know - but this is
not a generalisation you should be making - they are clearly two
distinct things.

<snip>

I think the generalization I'm more likely to make is that if the song is
labeled son montuno but it feels like a cha cha cha to me, it may actually
be the latter. A lot of what u said confirms my thinking - it's not me,
it's those other guys in the wrong . . . . <g>

kaysee

[kaysee]

No criticism inferred. . . .

I was also thinking about other albums of this approximate period where
songs seem to have been speciously labeled - I am also assuming by producers
as opposed to the musicians themselves - and realizing how to people who
speak even less spanish than I do this could become quite confusing.

An interesting conversation.

kaysee

Post by kaysee
I think the generalization I'm more likely to make is that if the song is
labeled son montuno but it feels like a cha cha cha to me, it may actually
be the latter. A lot of what u said confirms my thinking - it's not me,
it's those other guys in the wrong . . . . <g>

Sure - none of what I said was criticising you kaysee - I think often
it's more an issue of the tracks being mis-labelled by the album
producers. Once we go down that track it all tends to perpetuate the
confusion (see my other post in this thread in reply to Matthew).
Keith

[dmreed]

Post by kaysee
I'm pretty familiar with guagaunco, which has not stopped me dancing salsa
to it in the past <g>. My guaguanco dancing is not of the best, I fear,
though it has improved with limited practice. The songs labeled guagaunco
on that particular album I mentioned don't sound much like the folkloric
stuff I've heard over the years, though perhaps the rumba clave is evident.

there is/was definitely a band guaguancó which was different than the
folkloric guaguancó and if clave was played, it was frequently son
clave...in fact, many older folkloric guaguancós used son clave and the
conga pattern was played with the clave...not against it as is done today

[Orlando Fiol]

Post by kaysee
The songs labeled guagaunco
on that particular album I mentioned don't sound much like the folkloric
stuff I've heard over the years, though perhaps the rumba clave is evident.

The genre of guaguanco de salon has nothing to do with rumba clave or
drumming; it is an orchestration of typical diana singing, pentatonic
melody and rumba song forms. most guaguancoes de salon lyrics focus on
salutes to Cuban neighborhoods and deceased rumberos.

Orlando

[Chris Smalt]

Post by Keith Johnson

Post by kaysee
The guaguancos all play like modern salsa to me,

Keith Johnson

Post by Keith Johnson
Guaguanco is a form of rumba (Cuban folkloric street dance) music, which
should sound nothing at all like salsa. Do you mean guaracha?

Tito Puente's guaguancós are fast "salsa" numbers, where the percussion
does an adaptation of the street rumba, but the piano, bass and brass
spoil it all with overly busy frantic stuff. What I like about street
rumba is that they can play blazingly fast, while maintaining a sense of
tranquility. Like a good car - fast, steady, no engine noise. Like
walking on the moon.


Chris

[tumbao]

I guess our NY historians are on holiday or something - they'd be able to
clear this up...

"Guaguanco" as listed on 50's and early 60's NYC Dance Music has nothing to
do with rumba guaguanco. It was a common term of the time for the musical
hybrid that became salsa (a lot of it was guaracha.) That's why there are
tunes like Sabroso Guaguanco (Palmieri), La Esencia Del Guaguanco and
Guaguanco de Amor (written by Tite Curet Alonso, sung by 'El Conde'
Rodriguez). None of those are rumba. Perhaps the term suggested a different
step for the dancers than Mambo did. Don't forget that the album was "Dance
Mania" - I don't think they put those descriptions after each song for
future musical historians. At any rate - the album is a CLASSIC.

Post by Yambú

Post by Keith Johnson

Post by kaysee
The guaguancos all play like modern salsa to me,

Keith Johnson

Post by Keith Johnson
Guaguanco is a form of rumba (Cuban folkloric street dance) music, which
should sound nothing at all like salsa. Do you mean guaracha?

Tito Puente's guaguancós are fast "salsa" numbers, where the percussion
does an adaptation of the street rumba, but the piano, bass and brass
spoil it all with overly busy frantic stuff. What I like about street
rumba is that they can play blazingly fast, while maintaining a sense of
tranquility. Like a good car - fast, steady, no engine noise. Like
walking on the moon.
Chris

[dmreed]

Post by tumbao
I guess our NY historians are on holiday or something - they'd be able to
clear this up...
"Guaguanco" as listed on 50's and early 60's NYC Dance Music has nothing to
do with rumba guaguanco. It was a common term of the time for the musical
hybrid that became salsa (a lot of it was guaracha.) That's why there are
tunes like Sabroso Guaguanco (Palmieri), La Esencia Del Guaguanco and
Guaguanco de Amor (written by Tite Curet Alonso, sung by 'El Conde'
Rodriguez). None of those are rumba. Perhaps the term suggested a different
step for the dancers than Mambo did. Don't forget that the album was "Dance
Mania" - I don't think they put those descriptions after each song for
future musical historians. At any rate - the album is a CLASSIC.

funny...in the 60s and early 70s, when we played a band guaguancó, the
congas played a variation of the folkloric guaguancó where there was a slap
on the 2 on the 3 side of clave

[Nina]

Eddiieeeeeeeee, Césaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Heeeeeeeeellllllpppppppp

Post by tumbao
I guess our NY historians are on holiday or something - they'd be able to
clear this up...

[tumbao]

Post by Nina
Eddiieeeeeeeee, Césaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Heeeeeeeeellllllpppppppp

You forgot Geeooooorge and Richieeeeeeeee... ;-)

[Yambú]

For some reason I didnt know George was in NYC.

If you ever spoke with him, you would know he couldn't live anywhere
else. He probably can't be understood outside the greater NY area.

[Nina]

Post by Yambú

For some reason I didnt know George was in NYC.

If you ever spoke with him, you would know he couldn't live anywhere
else. He probably can't be understood outside the greater NY area.

I cant imagine him anywhere else, when I think about it. Its one of those
cases of somthing being just too obvious to see.

[dmreed]

I am curious why many tunes were labeled guaguancó on albums which also

had

tunes labeled guaracha. Is there something special or different about

such

"guaguancós" which would differentiate them from guarachas, i.e., some
difference in the bass lines or percussion patterns or melodic lines???

I did not ask...is there another Dennis?

This is a good question, which I've asked myself, and here is the
Apart from the normal relaxed standards of terminology which we are
all aware of in this music, what is important to keep in mind is that
guaguancó is not just a rhythm but also a song form.
A guaguanco song will typically start off with a diana, the
"bele-bele-belebele-ba" syllables from the lead singer, sometimes
given over to the horns in band arrangements. Then comes the "canto",
the "song" which is characterized by certain modal conventions and
frequent repetion of lines. It may or may not include a "decima" a
half-spoken, half-sung recitation or improvised poem. Then comes the
montuno, just like
But keep in mind that a guaguanco can be played in other genres, like
salsa or mambo or son, so it may sound like a mambo, with mambo
rhythm, no trace of the "kun-KIN-KIN-kun" common to folkloric
guaguanco, but nevertheless, if the song has the characteristics
above, it's probably a guaguanco.

as I said before the so-called band guaguancó often had the kun-kin-kin-kun
and it was frequently played with a slap on the 2 of the 3 side of clave and
the kin-kin of the 2 side.

There are more obvious differences in the song form of Columbia, and
less obvious ones in Yambu, which I haven't quite gotten around to
putting a finger on...
Guarachas, I'm not so sure about, it seems to have an archaic
definition as sort of a bawdy song, but now seems to be applied to any
upbeat number. Even Yoruba Andabo sings about being famous for
guaracha, when they do rumba. But I don't worry about it, in that case
I just figure guaracha to mean "a great song."

[Barry]

Post by dmreed

I am curious why many tunes were labeled guaguancó on albums which also

had

tunes labeled guaracha. Is there something special or different about

such

"guaguancós" which would differentiate them from guarachas, i.e., some
difference in the bass lines or percussion patterns or melodic lines???

I did not ask...is there another Dennis?

It was you, babe! See below direct from the dusty google vaults:

From: Dennis M. Reed \"Califa\" (***@home.com)
Subject: Re: Guaguanco in Salsa View: Complete Thread (20 articles)
Original FormatNewsgroups: rec.music.afro-latin
Date: 2001-06-26 11:16:03 PST

I am curious why many tunes were labeled guaguancó on albums which also had
tunes labeled guaracha. Is there something special or different about such
"guaguancós" which would differentiate them from guarachas, i.e., some
difference in the bass lines or percussion patterns or melodic lines???

--
Aché

Dennis M. Reed "Califa"

http://dmreed.com, my home page includes my musical autobiography which
contains anecdotes, audio recordings and photos of groups I have worked with
from the late 50s to the present (with 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos
Federico, 1970s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and recent photos of
some of my wife's now famous PR dinners with Larry Harlow, Yomo Toro,

[tumbao]

Post by tumbao
I guess our NY historians are on holiday or something - they'd be able to
clear this up...
"Guaguanco" as listed on 50's and early 60's NYC Dance Music has nothing to
do with rumba guaguanco.

Not so. See below a post I made a few years back. It is very likely
that the songs you listed below have at least some of the
A guaguanco song will typically start off with a diana, the
"bele-bele-belebele-ba" syllables from the lead singer, sometimes
given over to the horns in band arrangements.

OK, that's useful - I was thinking from a rhythm section perspective. There
are short diana-like improvs on the 3 tunes labelled 'guaguanco' on Dance
Mania, and on Sabroso Guaguanco. On La Esencia Del Guaguanco, it lasts less
than a bar. None on Guaguanco De Amor.

But keep in mind that a guaguanco can be played in other genres, like
salsa or mambo or son, so it may sound like a mambo, with mambo
rhythm, no trace of the "kun-KIN-KIN-kun" common to folkloric
guaguanco, but nevertheless, if the song has the characteristics
above, it's probably a guaguanco.

No "kun-KIN-KIN-kun" on any of them.

[dmreed]

Post by Yambú

Post by Keith Johnson

Post by kaysee
The guaguancos all play like modern salsa to me,

Keith Johnson

Post by Keith Johnson
Guaguanco is a form of rumba (Cuban folkloric street dance) music, which
should sound nothing at all like salsa. Do you mean guaracha?

Tito Puente's guaguancós are fast "salsa" numbers, where the percussion
does an adaptation of the street rumba, but the piano, bass and brass
spoil it all with overly busy frantic stuff. What I like about street
rumba is that they can play blazingly fast, while maintaining a sense of
tranquility. Like a good car - fast, steady, no engine noise. Like
walking on the moon.

I personally do not sense any tranquility in any rumba columbia I have heard

[Barry]

Post by dmreed
I personally do not sense any tranquility in any rumba columbia I have heard

Dennis, pick up the "when the spirits dance mambo" CD, you will love
it....
And there is a beautiful columbia on there. That columbia has to be
fast is a myth. It can be fast, or get fast, but doesn't have to be,
and the columbia on this record is the best proof of that I've heard.

I don't know if I would use the word "tranquility" exactly, but the
best rumba to me always has a very relaxed quality, not rushed or
forced

best regards
Barry

[dmreed]

thanks for the link...I listened to all the samples and yes they are relaxed
even the rumba columbia but not exactly tranquil :>) I like many of the
tunes...thanks again
--
Aché

Dennis M. Reed "Califa" (http://dmreed.com)

Various Artists: Puntilla's best rumba ever, The usual great stuff
from Yoruba Andabo, and Clave y Guaguancó's best stuff ever. Well
worth the 20 clams for 2 CD's. Don't get excited though, the film is
entirely missable...
http://www.whenthespiritsdancemambo.com/store.htm
best
Barry

who is the CD by?
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa" (http://dmreed.com)

Post by Barry

Post by dmreed
I personally do not sense any tranquility in any rumba columbia I

have

heard

Post by Barry
Dennis, pick up the "when the spirits dance mambo" CD, you will love
it....
And there is a beautiful columbia on there. That columbia has to be
fast is a myth. It can be fast, or get fast, but doesn't have to be,
and the columbia on this record is the best proof of that I've heard.
I don't know if I would use the word "tranquility" exactly, but the
best rumba to me always has a very relaxed quality, not rushed or
forced
best regards
Barry

[Chris Smalt]

Post by dmreed
I listened to all the samples and yes they are relaxed
even the rumba columbia but not exactly tranquil :>)

How about: tranquil in a Bruce Lee kind of way? :)


Chris

[C. L.]

Post by kaysee
Or is there no difference?
I was just listening to Tito Puente's Dance Mania I CD (actually I've been
listening to it off and on all week) and I noticed that all the songs that I
think of as chachacha are labeled son montuno!

Listen to the vocals. If you sense a "verse" section it's probably
chachacha. If it's nothing but "coro" it's son montuno. Chachacha and Son
Montuno are quite different in other regards, but seeing as how we're
already talking about a bastardized version (TP's forte) there's gray area.

[tumbao]

Post by C. L.

Post by kaysee
Or is there no difference?
I was just listening to Tito Puente's Dance Mania I CD (actually I've been
listening to it off and on all week) and I noticed that all the songs

that

Post by C. L.
I

Post by kaysee
think of as chachacha are labeled son montuno!

Listen to the vocals. If you sense a "verse" section it's probably
chachacha. If it's nothing but "coro" it's son montuno. Chachacha and Son
Montuno are quite different in other regards, but seeing as how we're
already talking about a bastardized version (TP's forte) there's gray area.

TP's forte? What a crock of shit...

[kaysee]

Well, from now on when they sing to me "llega Mijon pa' que baila mi cha cha
cha", I think I'll just ignore the son montuno part of the legend . . . <g>.

kaysee

Post by C. L.

Post by kaysee
Or is there no difference?
I was just listening to Tito Puente's Dance Mania I CD (actually I've been
listening to it off and on all week) and I noticed that all the songs

that

Post by C. L.
I

Post by kaysee
think of as chachacha are labeled son montuno!

Listen to the vocals. If you sense a "verse" section it's probably
chachacha. If it's nothing but "coro" it's son montuno. Chachacha and Son
Montuno are quite different in other regards, but seeing as how we're
already talking about a bastardized version (TP's forte) there's gray area.

[DeRayMi]

Post by kaysee
Or is there no difference?

<<edit>>

Post by kaysee
What's up with that? Is this why my instinctive reaction to any son montuno
I hear is to chachacha?
kaysee

Yeah, I've often wondered the same thing, but I just chalked it up to
my inability to understand the subtleties of Afro-Latin dance
sub-genres.

[Matthew]

Son montuno is a phrase that has been used (incorrectly) to describe
so many completely unrelated musical forms that it is now virtually
worthless as a musical term.

Much, but of course NOT ALL, of the problem flowed from some very
extensive but nonetheless substantially erroneous liner notes which
John Santos produced many years back on a CD called History of the Son
Montuno.

Therefore, because son montuno is now used indiscriminately to
describe all Cuban musical forms, ALL the tunes are indeed son
montuno, just as they are all "salsa" songs, another term which has
lost most of its meaning.

That being said, it is highly unlikely that many (if any) of these
tunes are Cuban "son" which originated from the mountains (hence the
term montuno) of Oriente. The major way to tell is whether the dance
patterns which blend most closely with the structure of the tune begin
on the "1" (which is true for a cha-cha-cha) or on a "2" which is the
beginning dance step for son.

Of course there are a myriad of Latin dance steps which begin on the
1. However this is not Cuban son. And while there are other Cuban
dance forms which begin dancing on "2" (such as mambo, bolero,
guaracha, changui, nengon, and guajira) most of these have a direct
revolution to that musical form known as son which cross-pollinated
with so many preexisting Cuban musical forms to produce the
"son-complex" in the early part of the 20th century.

This discussion of course excludes the various types of rumba, which
was not really part of popular Cuban dance (being largely confined to
Cuban religion) until relatively recently.

Matthew

Post by kaysee
Or is there no difference?
I was just listening to Tito Puente's Dance Mania I CD (actually I've been
listening to it off and on all week) and I noticed that all the songs that I
think of as chachacha are labeled son montuno!
1. El Cayuco - Son Montuno
2. Complicación - Guaguanco
3. 3-D Mambo
4. Llego Miján - Son Montuno
5. Cuando te vea - Guaguanco
6. Hong Kong Mambo
7. Mambo Gozón
8. Mi chiquita quiere bembé - Cha cha cha Bembé
9. Varsity Drag
10. Estoy siempre junto a tí - Bolero
11. Agua limpia todo - Guaguanco
12. Saca tu mujer - Guaracha
(The unlabeled ones are all mambos.)
The guaguancos all play like modern salsa to me, while the mambos sound
mostly dated, or seem to lean towards latin jazz. But the son montunos are
cha cha chas! (They actually have the word[s] chachacha sung by the coro in
them.)
What's up with that? Is this why my instinctive reaction to any son montuno
I hear is to chachacha?
kaysee

[dmreed]

Post by Matthew
This discussion of course excludes the various types of rumba, which
was not really part of popular Cuban dance (being largely confined to
Cuban religion) until relatively recently.

I have quite a few vintage Cuban videos which seem to indicate that secular
rumba has been danced in Cuba for many years.

[C. L.]

Rumba has nothing to do with religion. It is a secular art form.

Post by dmreed

Post by Matthew
This discussion of course excludes the various types of rumba, which
was not really part of popular Cuban dance (being largely confined to
Cuban religion) until relatively recently.

I have quite a few vintage Cuban videos which seem to indicate that secular
rumba has been danced in Cuba for many years.
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa" (http://dmreed.com)

[Keith Johnson]

Post by Matthew
Son montuno is a phrase that has been used (incorrectly) to describe
so many completely unrelated musical forms that it is now virtually
worthless as a musical term.

Well - maybe to the general public it's worthless, but to a musician who
understands the music it's quite specific. For me there are clear
differences between cha-cha-chá and son montuno rhythms - see my post
above - but that doesn't mean the music will always be labelled
correctly.

Post by Matthew
Much, but of course NOT ALL, of the problem flowed from some very
extensive but nonetheless substantially erroneous liner notes which
John Santos produced many years back on a CD called History of the Son
Montuno.
Therefore, because son montuno is now used indiscriminately to
describe all Cuban musical forms, ALL the tunes are indeed son
montuno, just as they are all "salsa" songs, another term which has
lost most of its meaning.

This is somewhat dangerous thinking. Sure language evolves, but there is
a tendency to absorb things into common parlance which detract from the
language, in this case by blurring important distinctions and impairing
our ability to be precise in our terminology. We should resist this.
It's good that you Matthew have pointed out the source of some of this
confusion, but in a group like this we should seek to clear up these
distinctions. It's not good enough just to roll over and accept nonsense
from self-appointed experts who only create more confusion - we should
defend our verbal territory.

Post by Matthew
That being said, it is highly unlikely that many (if any) of these
tunes are Cuban "son" which originated from the mountains (hence the
term montuno) of Oriente.

Er, not quite, as far as I know. Son montuno evolved from son - they are
not identical - by the addition of montuno rhythms, often as a separate
section. As I said in my post above, I always understood that son music
was what was played in the villages, while the montuno section developed
when musicians from the mountains came down to join those in the
villages, injecting a more dynamic rhythm into the music. There's a
great double CD of location recordings featuring La Familia Valera
Miranda called "Antologia Integral Del Son" which documents a lot of the
true history of son music.

Post by Matthew
The major way to tell is whether the dance
patterns which blend most closely with the structure of the tune begin
on the "1" (which is true for a cha-cha-cha) or on a "2" which is the
beginning dance step for son.

There are so many exceptions to this, I don't know that it can possibly
be a useful rule of thumb. Better to learn the basic differences between
the rhythmic structures. For me it's entirely obvious within about 5
seconds whether I'm listening to a cha cha chá or son montuno just by
listening to the tempo, the bell patterns, the piano and bass patterns.

Post by Matthew
This discussion of course excludes the various types of rumba, which
was not really part of popular Cuban dance (being largely confined to
Cuban religion) until relatively recently.

I always thought rumba was street music, which although having roots in
the religious music of west Africa, has very little to do with religion
itself. Rumba dance is usually more a display of sexual pantomime, with
a large dose of humour. I think you're confusing rumba with the bata
drum music of the bembe.

Keith

[Yambú]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:41:45 +0100, Keith Johnson

....I think you're confusing rumba with the bata
drum music of the bembe.

And you're confusing batá with bembé. They have no connection. Bembé
origionally was played on tambores de bembé.

[Keith Johnson]

Post by Yambú
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:41:45 +0100, Keith Johnson

....I think you're confusing rumba with the bata
drum music of the bembe.

And you're confusing batá with bembé. They have no connection. Bembé
origionally was played on tambores de bembé.

I was using the word "bembé" in its sense of a religious celebration,
rather than using it to describe any particular rhythm. I remember
reading somewhere that a bembé is "a party for the orishas".

Hang on - here's the link:-

http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/bldefbembe.htm

It says,

"Bembe
Definition: In Santeria/Lukumi, a Bembe is a ritual party for the
Orishas. Songs sacred to each Orisha are played, with drumming, singing,
dancing and prayers to encourage the Orishas' presence.
Pronunciation: Bem-bay• (noun)"

Please enlighten me if this is incorrect.

Keith

[Yambú]

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:13:23 +0100, Keith Johnson

.....a Bembe is a ritual party for the
Orishas. Songs sacred to each Orisha are played, with drumming, singing,
dancing and prayers to encourage the Orishas' presence.
Pronunciation: Bem-bay• (noun)"
Please enlighten me if this is incorrect.

No, that's correct. It was originally of Yoruba origin, with a large
dose of Bantú influence. Nowadays, especially in Oriente, you can see
it performed with all kinds of drums, including bongos, along with
maracas, tres, guitar, claves, etc.

Less often, a bembé can also be the Oru de Igbodu (Invocation of the
Orishas), identical to that performed on batás, in places, such as
Cienfuegos, where there are no batás.

[Chris Smalt]

Post by Keith Johnson
Rumba dance is usually more a display of sexual pantomime, with
a large dose of humour.

Many forms of rumba are pantomimes of non-sexual nature, like the boy
who didn't want to go to school, the farmer who lost his chicken, the
other farmer trying to mount his horse, the kid flying a kite, the
puppet on a string, etcetera etcetera.

Or maybe my mind isn't dirty enough.


Chris

[Keith Johnson]

Post by Chris Smalt
Many forms of rumba are pantomimes of non-sexual nature, like the boy
who didn't want to go to school, the farmer who lost his chicken, the
other farmer trying to mount his horse, the kid flying a kite, the
puppet on a string, etcetera etcetera.

Does anyone have any links to good rumba resources (or books)? I'd love
to explore this art form a bit more. There seems to be very little on
the dance and folklore of it, let alone the music.

Post by Chris Smalt
Or maybe my mind isn't dirty enough.

LOL :-)

Maybe it's just the only rumbas I've ever seen are the raunchy ones.

Keith

[Orlando Fiol]

Post by Matthew
Son montuno is a phrase that has been used (incorrectly) to describe
so many completely unrelated musical forms that it is now virtually
worthless as a musical term.

Yet, many of us still know exactly what son montuno is; it is a medium
tempo genre that transfers accentuation to the downbeat of the 2 side of
clave as opposed to the 3 side so often accentuated in son.

Post by Matthew
That being said, it is highly unlikely that many (if any) of these
tunes are Cuban "son" which originated from the mountains (hence the
term montuno) of Oriente.

Son montuno is defined not by its connection to the mountains, but by
its emphasis on the montuno section, adding mambos and solos to what
would otherwise be a simple montuno at the end of a son.

Post by Matthew
The major way to tell is whether the dance
patterns which blend most closely with the structure of the tune begin
on the "1" (which is true for a cha-cha-cha) or on a "2" which is the
beginning dance step for son.

People dance son on the 1 and 2, depending on style and training, so I
doubt that is the determining factor.

Post by Matthew
Of course there are a myriad of Latin dance steps which begin on the
1. However this is not Cuban son.

See above. Son is often danced on the 1 to coincide with the downbeat
of clave.

Post by Matthew
And while there are other Cuban dance forms which begin dancing on "2" (such as mambo, bolero,
guaracha, changui, nengon, and guajira) most of these have a direct
revolution to that musical form known as son which cross-pollinated
with so many preexisting Cuban musical forms to produce the
"son-complex" in the early part of the 20th century.

What connection do you hear between changui, nengon and son besides the
obvious allusions to clave structures?

Orlando

[Orlando Fiol]

I believe Son Montuno, like many hybrid forms of the Son (i.e., Bolero
- Son, Rumba Son, Guaracha-son) is just that, a hybrid, but in this
case a hybrid, or rather truncation, of itself: consisting entirely of the call and response "montuno" section of a
typical son, and dispensing altogether with the sometimes rather brief
song part at the beginning.

Yet, all son montunos have heads, even if some begin with a brief
montuno teaser.

Orlando

[Matthew]

Son montuno is a phrase that has been used (incorrectly) to describe
so many completely unrelated musical forms that it is now virtually
worthless as a musical term.

Much, but of course NOT ALL, of the problem flowed from some very
extensive but nonetheless substantially erroneous liner notes which
John Santos produced many years back on a CD called History of the Son
Montuno.

Therefore, because son montuno is now used indiscriminately to
describe all Cuban musical forms, ALL the tunes are indeed son
montuno, just as they are all "salsa" songs, another term which has
lost most of its meaning.

That being said, it is highly unlikely that many (if any) of these
tunes are Cuban "son" which originated from the mountains (hence the
term montuno) of Oriente. The major way to tell is whether the dance
patterns which blend most closely with the structure of the tune begin
on the "1" (which is true for a cha-cha-cha) or on a "2" which is the
beginning dance step for son.

Of course there are a myriad of Latin dance steps which begin on the
1. However this is not Cuban son. And while there are other Cuban
dance forms which begin dancing on "2" (such as mambo, bolero,
guaracha, changui, nengon, and guajira) most of these have a direct
revolution to that musical form known as son which cross-pollinated
with so many preexisting Cuban musical forms to produce the
"son-complex" in the early part of the 20th century.

This discussion of course excludes the various types of rumba, which
was not really part of popular Cuban dance (being largely confined to
Cuban religion) until relatively recently.

Matthew

Post by kaysee
Or is there no difference?
I was just listening to Tito Puente's Dance Mania I CD (actually I've been
listening to it off and on all week) and I noticed that all the songs that I
think of as chachacha are labeled son montuno!
1. El Cayuco - Son Montuno
2. Complicación - Guaguanco
3. 3-D Mambo
4. Llego Miján - Son Montuno
5. Cuando te vea - Guaguanco
6. Hong Kong Mambo
7. Mambo Gozón
8. Mi chiquita quiere bembé - Cha cha cha Bembé
9. Varsity Drag
10. Estoy siempre junto a tí - Bolero
11. Agua limpia todo - Guaguanco
12. Saca tu mujer - Guaracha
(The unlabeled ones are all mambos.)
The guaguancos all play like modern salsa to me, while the mambos sound
mostly dated, or seem to lean towards latin jazz. But the son montunos are
cha cha chas! (They actually have the word[s] chachacha sung by the coro in
them.)
What's up with that? Is this why my instinctive reaction to any son montuno
I hear is to chachacha?
kaysee

[J R-S]

Otro más que se pone a beber antes de escribir...

jrs

absurdity...there is not cuban religion per se...
if you mean, afrocuban relious beliefs...which derived from african cults
and came with the slaves from Africa ..
then the Catholic religion , which the Spaniards and other euopean
introduced in Cuba
got an influence onn the african slaves , which mixed their beliefs with

the

Christian Catholic beliefs of thir masters in those days.
The wor "SON" means sound in french...a hint to the etimological roots of
Son Montuno...
Danson...is the equivalent to : DANZON in french...
and dansonette...derives from this french term...
Another hint to the roots...and influence of the 60,000 french colons who
took refuge in Cuba during the Haitian revolution in de 1780s....

Post by Matthew
Son montuno is a phrase that has been used (incorrectly) to describe
so many completely unrelated musical forms that it is now virtually
worthless as a musical term.
Much, but of course NOT ALL, of the problem flowed from some very
extensive but nonetheless substantially erroneous liner notes which
John Santos produced many years back on a CD called History of the Son
Montuno.
Therefore, because son montuno is now used indiscriminately to
describe all Cuban musical forms, ALL the tunes are indeed son
montuno, just as they are all "salsa" songs, another term which has
lost most of its meaning.
That being said, it is highly unlikely that many (if any) of these
tunes are Cuban "son" which originated from the mountains (hence the
term montuno) of Oriente. The major way to tell is whether the dance
patterns which blend most closely with the structure of the tune begin
on the "1" (which is true for a cha-cha-cha) or on a "2" which is the
beginning dance step for son.
Of course there are a myriad of Latin dance steps which begin on the
1. However this is not Cuban son. And while there are other Cuban
dance forms which begin dancing on "2" (such as mambo, bolero,
guaracha, changui, nengon, and guajira) most of these have a direct
revolution to that musical form known as son which cross-pollinated
with so many preexisting Cuban musical forms to produce the
"son-complex" in the early part of the 20th century.
This discussion of course excludes the various types of rumba, which
was not really part of popular Cuban dance (being largely confined to
Cuban religion) until relatively recently.
Matthew

Post by kaysee
Or is there no difference?
I was just listening to Tito Puente's Dance Mania I CD (actually I've

been

Post by Matthew

Post by kaysee
listening to it off and on all week) and I noticed that all the songs

that I

Post by Matthew

Post by kaysee
think of as chachacha are labeled son montuno!
1. El Cayuco - Son Montuno
2. Complicación - Guaguanco
3. 3-D Mambo
4. Llego Miján - Son Montuno
5. Cuando te vea - Guaguanco
6. Hong Kong Mambo
7. Mambo Gozón
8. Mi chiquita quiere bembé - Cha cha cha Bembé
9. Varsity Drag
10. Estoy siempre junto a tí - Bolero
11. Agua limpia todo - Guaguanco
12. Saca tu mujer - Guaracha
(The unlabeled ones are all mambos.)
The guaguancos all play like modern salsa to me, while the mambos sound
mostly dated, or seem to lean towards latin jazz. But the son

montunos

are

Post by Matthew

Post by kaysee
cha cha chas! (They actually have the word[s] chachacha sung by the

coro in

Post by Matthew

Post by kaysee
them.)
What's up with that? Is this why my instinctive reaction to any son

montuno

Post by Matthew

Post by kaysee
I hear is to chachacha?
kaysee

[Yambú]

...This discussion of course excludes the various types of rumba, which
was not really part of popular Cuban dance (being largely confined to
Cuban religion) until relatively recently.

The various rumbas started taking their present shape post-1886, when
liberated slaves began flooding into Habana, Matanzas, and other
western cities. They are a secular genre, although one can trace the
vacunao and rythm commonalities to the makuta and other
quasi-religious music.

[dmreed]

absurdity...there is not cuban religion per se...
if you mean, afrocuban relious beliefs...which derived from african cults
and came with the slaves from Africa ..
then the Catholic religion , which the Spaniards and other euopean
introduced in Cuba
got an influence onn the african slaves , which mixed their beliefs with

the

Christian Catholic beliefs of thir masters in those days.

it is very obvious to me that you have not studied Santería in any depth at
all!

[ahlahan]

Actually Dennis - As far as Santeria , yes it saw its origins in Cuba but by
no means it is a CUBAN religion . Santeria is the african Yoruba religion
(to which all practices of santeria owe its origin) disguised in a veil of
Catholisim. The african slaves (with a great deal of both spirituality and
cleverness) adopted christian saints as the ephigies for their own daities
(ORICHAS). The catholic church was more than happy to see images of the
Virgin Mary , Christ , Lazarous etc in the slaves rituals but the prayers
were meant to their own saints. With a GREAT deal of wisdom the african
slaves reazoned that if the white man's saints were so powerful they would
interecede for them and pass their prayers to their Yoruba counterparts (How
infinetely wiser that the attitude of the catholic church!) . Here's a case
where the simplicity and purity of soul of the slaves , saw them not only
through their slavery but allowed them to pass their belives to their
children. Eventually the lines between christian icons and yoruba deities
was blurred BUT had not been for the profound sensitivity of those very
first african slaves Santeria would never had existed. Yes many things has
the cuban culture offered the world.
The Cuban food (hmmmm!)
The Cuban heel
The Cuban jewelry link
The Cuban Guyabera
The Cuban coffee
The Cuban cigar
The Cuban dog (Cubanesse)
and of course the Cuban music
But Santeria is 100% an african religion.
Hope this helps.

Post by dmreed

absurdity...there is not cuban religion per se...
if you mean, afrocuban relious beliefs...which derived from african cults
and came with the slaves from Africa ..
then the Catholic religion , which the Spaniards and other euopean
introduced in Cuba
got an influence onn the african slaves , which mixed their beliefs with

the

Christian Catholic beliefs of thir masters in those days.

it is very obvious to me that you have not studied Santería in any depth at
all!
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa" (http://dmreed.com)

[pablo]

Santeria is not an organized religion, there are nearly as many different
varieties of it as there are practicioners, some of them original Yoruba,
and some of them very Catholic. How close to the original Yoruba religion
Lucumi (which, somewhat inaccurately, could be called the more authentic
Santeria version) really is I don't know, because I have never been to any
bembes in Africa. I have heard different opinions on the matter.

Where I am from, Santeria is mostly practised not even using the Eleggua and
Shango name, but rather the Saint Peter and Saint Barbara equivalents. Looks
very Christian, but of course the giveaway is Saint Barbara -Shango- these
days, because she was taken off the Church calendar in the 60s or so.
Opinions are divided on whether it was a calculated move against santeria,
or whether for once the Catholic church really got a bit more rigurous in
its sainthood standards: after all, it seems she was an entirely fictional
character despite the popularity of the story in the Middle Ages (martyr
beautiful virgin women stories always catch on).

There's no denying the original Lucumi was basically African religion in a
very self-serving Christian package, but things have developed from there.
And if you want to tell a Santero or Santera that go for the more
christianized flavors that they don't know what they're doing, suit
yourself, but don't be surprised if you wake up with a pig snout and ears
and a curly little tail the very next morning. :-)

...pablo

[dmreed]

Post by pablo
Santeria is not an organized religion, there are nearly as many different
varieties of it as there are practicioners, some of them original Yoruba,
and some of them very Catholic. How close to the original Yoruba religion
Lucumi (which, somewhat inaccurately, could be called the more authentic
Santeria version) really is I don't know, because I have never been to any
bembes in Africa. I have heard different opinions on the matter.

not organized....much like Christianity?

Post by pablo
Where I am from, Santeria is mostly practised not even using the Eleggua and
Shango name, but rather the Saint Peter and Saint Barbara equivalents. Looks
very Christian, but of course the giveaway is Saint Barbara -Shango- these
days, because she was taken off the Church calendar in the 60s or so.

so was St Peter...so is my blessed protective medallion not funtional
anymore? oh no, can I get a refund from Rome?

Post by pablo
Opinions are divided on whether it was a calculated move against santeria,
or whether for once the Catholic church really got a bit more rigurous in
its sainthood standards: after all, it seems she was an entirely fictional
character despite the popularity of the story in the Middle Ages (martyr
beautiful virgin women stories always catch on).
There's no denying the original Lucumi was basically African religion in a
very self-serving Christian package, but things have developed from there.
And if you want to tell a Santero or Santera that go for the more
christianized flavors that they don't know what they're doing, suit
yourself, but don't be surprised if you wake up with a pig snout and ears
and a curly little tail the very next morning. :-)

:>)

[Yambú]

Post by pablo
Saint Barbara -Shango-
these

Post by dmreed

Post by pablo
days, because she was taken off the Church calendar in the 60s or so.

so was St Peter...so is my blessed protective medallion not funtional
anymore? oh no, can I get a refund from Rome?

Get one for the St Christopher medal too.

And add Sts. George and Valentine. Before approaching Rome, don't
forget a quick prayer to the Infant of Prague, patron of finances.

[dmreed]

Post by pablo

Post by dmreed
so was St Peter...so is my blessed protective medallion not funtional
anymore? oh no, can I get a refund from Rome?

Get one for the St Christopher medal too.

I meant St Christopher...St Peter? what was I thinking?

[pablo]

Post by dmreed
not organized....much like Christianity?

I am not sure what you mean, since the Catholic church is highly organized:
priests, bishops, cardinals and the works. Decress, written rules, formal
education of the priesthood, etc etc. Santeria has absolutely none of any of
that.

Post by dmreed
so was St Peter...so is my blessed protective medallion not funtional
anymore? oh no, can I get a refund from Rome?

Well, then Jesus himself is fictional, and I can't recall the Lord himself
making personal appearances himself. Seriously: there is historical evidence
as to the existence of Saint Peter. Whether truly a direct disciple, or
simply someone very influential in early catholic days who knows, but very
storng evidence exists he was around. There are letters written in 200AD by
Chruch officials that attest to his living in Rome, and probably dying there
a martyr. The residence, and the death of Peter are one of the most
researched subjects of chruch scholars, by the way.

St Barbara is nothing like that - there's no evidence to her existence
whatsoever.

...pablo

[pablo]

...I suspect that the early
Church also did not have formal education but rather apprenticeships.

Ah, the *early* Christian church. Absolutely. Might also explain its early
success, and its state of crisis since... :-)

as Nina pointed out I really meant St Christopher

See, I couldn't confuse them. That's what strict catholic schooling will do
to you (if anyone knows what the Opus Dei is, well, I attended their
orientation seminars many years back... heavens, I even considered
priesthood quite seriously as an impressionable teen...!!!), it's one of
those odd things - while not being formally catholic these days, I still
know the Bible inside out better than 99% people do. What;s more, I made it
a hobby to find Bible quotes to support 8 out of 10 deadly sins at the
time - which is why I never made it to more advanced indoctrination
seminars, I am am sure. :-) To this day, I am sure with a bit more work you
could go 10 out of 10.
Yes, that was my point. I am sure they'd thusly pick someone else as the
Chango equivalent these days.

...pablo

[dmreed]

Post by pablo
See, I couldn't confuse them. That's what strict catholic schooling will do
to you (if anyone knows what the Opus Dei is, well, I attended their
orientation seminars many years back... heavens, I even considered
priesthood quite seriously as an impressionable teen...!!!), it's one of
those odd things - while not being formally catholic these days, I still
know the Bible inside out better than 99% people do. What;s more, I made it
a hobby to find Bible quotes to support 8 out of 10 deadly sins at the
time - which is why I never made it to more advanced indoctrination
seminars, I am am sure. :-) To this day, I am sure with a bit more work you
could go 10 out of 10.

that is funny...we do need to get together some day...I was raised a basic
Protestant but I became interested in Catholicism about my junior year in HS
and attended early mass daily and then attended Loyola University at Los
Angeles for my freshman year...I was also interested in the priesthood...I
took the religion classes which were required for the Catholic students
instead of the one for non-Catholic students. I even went to the president
of the Univ to discuss what was wrong with the religion classes...he
listened carefully and at the next class the priest had a totally different
demeanor and the class changed significantly. I continued to go to daily
mass...but never received the gift of faith....oh well

I have also studied the Bible a bit as well as other religions and I still
have many biblical questions which have never been answered adequately by
ministers and priests :>)

[Nina]

Post by pablo

...I suspect that the early
Church also did not have formal education but rather apprenticeships.

Ah, the *early* Christian church. Absolutely. Might also explain its early
success, and its state of crisis since... :-)

as Nina pointed out I really meant St Christopher

See, I couldn't confuse them. That's what strict catholic schooling will do
to you (if anyone knows what the Opus Dei is, well, I attended their
orientation seminars many years back... heavens, I even considered
priesthood quite seriously as an impressionable teen...!!!), it's one of
those odd things - while not being formally catholic these days, I still
know the Bible inside out better than 99% people do. What;s more, I made it
a hobby to find Bible quotes to support 8 out of 10 deadly sins at the
time - which is why I never made it to more advanced indoctrination
seminars, I am am sure. :-) To this day, I am sure with a bit more work you
could go 10 out of 10.

Ha, I even taught CCD to the little ones back in my day AND was an altar
server for about 5 years or so. I still have mounds of frankincense and coal
in my closet, never know when one may need some ritual performed in the
house. Very busy now indoctrinating the next generation of lapsed Catholics,
didja know people spend HUNDREDS on 1st Communion dresses??

[Chris Smalt]

Post by Nina
Very busy now indoctrinating the next generation of lapsed Catholics,
didja know people spend HUNDREDS on 1st Communion dresses??

Not to mention shoes!


Chris

[pablo]

Post by pablo
Get one for the St Christopher medal too.

St Christopher was dropped from the church calendar, too.

...pablo

[dmreed]

that was my original question regarding getting a refund!
--
Aché

Dennis M. Reed "Califa" (http://dmreed.com)

Post by pablo

Post by pablo
Get one for the St Christopher medal too.

St Christopher was dropped from the church calendar, too.
...pablo

[Nina]

"pablo" <pabloNOSPAMsimplyhombreDOTnet> wrote > And if you want to tell a
Santero or Santera that go for the more

Post by pablo
christianized flavors that they don't know what they're doing, suit
yourself, but don't be surprised if you wake up with a pig snout and ears
and a curly little tail the very next morning. :-)
...pablo

*suddenly understanding things more clearly*

[pablo]

Post by Nina
*suddenly understanding things more clearly*

Your curse didn't work (yet). Just looked behind me, and it's still the
standard view. :-)

[Nina]

Post by pablo

Post by Nina
*suddenly understanding things more clearly*

Your curse didn't work (yet). Just looked behind me, and it's still the
standard view. :-)

*peeking*

[Nina]

Post by Nina

Post by pablo

Post by Nina
*suddenly understanding things more clearly*

Your curse didn't work (yet). Just looked behind me, and it's still the
standard view. :-)

*peeking*

God, if I'd said what I was thinking, they'd have banned me from Usenet!

[Chris Smalt]

Post by Nina
God, if I'd said what I was thinking, they'd have banned me from Usenet!

OK, I'll say it for you: "Hmm, curly it ain't..."


Chris

[toy soldier]

Post by pablo
There's no denying the original Lucumi was basically African religion in a
very self-serving Christian package, but things have developed from there.
And if you want to tell a Santero or Santera that go for the more
christianized flavors that they don't know what they're doing, suit
yourself, but don't be surprised if you wake up with a pig snout and ears
and a curly little tail the very next morning. :-)

thats very odd, i was under the impression that only Paleros or
Abakuás used curses, cuz Ifá abhores cursing, as it is a wrong deed,
and the only wrong doing allowed in Ifá practice is the reversion of
the evil beset or inflicted by enemies. the saying goes "voy a pedir
pa tí lo mismo que tú pa mí", i´ll ask for u from the saints the same
things u ask for me. the orishas have kinda ethics, u know, u can ask
them natural things like success or love, but not directly the demise
or agrivation of a human been; all u can ask is punishment for the
wrong doers, and only if it is according to the orisha´s personality.
e.g Shangó would never punish an adulter, thats left for Oyá and
Oshún, and Orula would never hurt an elder, and Yemayá would actually
congratulate "inmoral" women.

[Barry]

Post by ahlahan
Actually Dennis - As far as Santeria , yes it saw its origins in Cuba but by
no means it is a CUBAN religion .

(snip)

Post by ahlahan
But Santeria is 100% an african religion.
Hope this helps.

No, it doesn't really help because it's not quite true. : )

In fact, you contradict it yourself with this sentence:

*******

Post by ahlahan
Eventually the lines between christian icons and yoruba deities
was blurred BUT ***had not been for the profound sensitivity of those very first african slaves Santeria would never had existed. ***

(You are claiming Santeria already existed in Africa, but if so, then
why would it need help from slaves to be brought into existence?)

*******

The African Yoruba religion underwent significant changes in terms of
belief, ritual and performance while in its various New World settings
and while elements of it would be recognizable to a West African,
Santeria, or La Regla de Ocha as it is known to practitioners in Cuba
is distinctive enough from its origins to be called, if not a Cuban
religion, an Afro-Cuban religion. (I believe the "syncretism" aspect
with catholicism is often overstated and has not had that much impact
on Santeria itself apart from iconography.)

I do not deny that Santeria has exclusively African origins, but to
say that that makes it "100% African" is inaccurate in my view.

Best regards
Barry

[ahlahan]

Do we agree then that without the YORUBA religion there would NOT be
Santeria ? My point was that (in MY estimation) to call something oriund of
a particular country its core root had to develop in that country. But you
are correct. Had enough evolution taken place on the root element it could
be made a case for the evolutionary element to develp its own independent
nature. At any rate I feel much more confortable calling Santeria an
Afro-Cuban religion than a Cuban religion.
Thanks for the thorough explanation.

Post by Barry

Post by ahlahan
Actually Dennis - As far as Santeria , yes it saw its origins in Cuba but by
no means it is a CUBAN religion .

(snip)

Post by ahlahan
But Santeria is 100% an african religion.
Hope this helps.

No, it doesn't really help because it's not quite true. : )
*******

Post by ahlahan
Eventually the lines between christian icons and yoruba deities
was blurred BUT ***had not been for the profound sensitivity of those

very first african slaves Santeria would never had existed. ***

Post by Barry
(You are claiming Santeria already existed in Africa, but if so, then
why would it need help from slaves to be brought into existence?)
*******
The African Yoruba religion underwent significant changes in terms of
belief, ritual and performance while in its various New World settings
and while elements of it would be recognizable to a West African,
Santeria, or La Regla de Ocha as it is known to practitioners in Cuba
is distinctive enough from its origins to be called, if not a Cuban
religion, an Afro-Cuban religion. (I believe the "syncretism" aspect
with catholicism is often overstated and has not had that much impact
on Santeria itself apart from iconography.)
I do not deny that Santeria has exclusively African origins, but to
say that that makes it "100% African" is inaccurate in my view.
Best regards
Barry

[dmreed]

Post by ahlahan
Do we agree then that without the YORUBA religion there would NOT be
Santeria ? My point was that (in MY estimation) to call something oriund of
a particular country its core root had to develop in that country. But you
are correct. Had enough evolution taken place on the root element it could
be made a case for the evolutionary element to develp its own independent
nature. At any rate I feel much more confortable calling Santeria an
Afro-Cuban religion than a Cuban religion.
Thanks for the thorough explanation.

of course Santería has evolved from Yoruban Ifá.

I think the Yoruba religion should be called by its name which I think is
Ifá.

I think Afro-Cuban is more accurate than just Cuban

[Matthew]

Ifa is from Nigeria, specifically from the Yoruba. (Funny how nobody
ever talks about the Yoruba genocide against the Ibo in Biafra in the
1960s!).

Santeria started in Cuba and spread to the Caribbean and elsewhere.
It includes some Yoruba elements but also elements from Haiti and
other African nations such as Congo and Dahomey, and a bit of
influence from indigenous Cuban religion. Santeria is also syncretic
with Catholicism and of course Ifa is not.

Matthew

Post by ahlahan
Actually Dennis - As far as Santeria , yes it saw its origins in Cuba but

by

Post by ahlahan
no means it is a CUBAN religion . Santeria is the african Yoruba religion
(to which all practices of santeria owe its origin) disguised in a veil of
Catholisim. The african slaves (with a great deal of both spirituality and
cleverness) adopted christian saints as the ephigies for their own daities
(ORICHAS). The catholic church was more than happy to see images of the
Virgin Mary , Christ , Lazarous etc in the slaves rituals but the prayers
were meant to their own saints. With a GREAT deal of wisdom the african
slaves reazoned that if the white man's saints were so powerful they would
interecede for them and pass their prayers to their Yoruba counterparts

(How

Post by ahlahan
infinetely wiser that the attitude of the catholic church!) . Here's a

case

Post by ahlahan
where the simplicity and purity of soul of the slaves , saw them not only
through their slavery but allowed them to pass their belives to their
children. Eventually the lines between christian icons and yoruba deities
was blurred BUT had not been for the profound sensitivity of those very
first african slaves Santeria would never had existed. Yes many things has
the cuban culture offered the world.
The Cuban food (hmmmm!)
The Cuban heel
The Cuban jewelry link
The Cuban Guyabera
The Cuban coffee
The Cuban cigar
The Cuban dog (Cubanesse)
and of course the Cuban music
But Santeria is 100% an african religion.
Hope this helps.

if I recall my readings regarding Santería and Ifá religions, Santería is
definitely a western religion which had its roots in the African Ifá
religion. African Ifá does not use Christian saints to hide their true
beliefs from outsiders.

[wgodfrey]

Post by Matthew
Ifa is from Nigeria, specifically from the Yoruba. (Funny how nobody
ever talks about the Yoruba genocide against the Ibo in Biafra in the
1960s!).

Get your facts right. The Nigerian Federal Army which supressed the Ibo
secessionists was led by Northerners who were primarily Muslims. To discuss
it purely in terms of "genocide" is not justifiable either.

Post by Matthew
Santeria started in Cuba and spread to the Caribbean and elsewhere.
It includes some Yoruba elements but also elements from Haiti and
other African nations such as Congo and Dahomey, and a bit of
influence from indigenous Cuban religion. Santeria is also syncretic
with Catholicism and of course Ifa is not.
Matthew

Post by ahlahan
Actually Dennis - As far as Santeria , yes it saw its origins in Cuba but

by

Post by ahlahan
no means it is a CUBAN religion . Santeria is the african Yoruba religion
(to which all practices of santeria owe its origin) disguised in a veil of
Catholisim. The african slaves (with a great deal of both spirituality and
cleverness) adopted christian saints as the ephigies for their own daities
(ORICHAS). The catholic church was more than happy to see images of the
Virgin Mary , Christ , Lazarous etc in the slaves rituals but the prayers
were meant to their own saints. With a GREAT deal of wisdom the african
slaves reazoned that if the white man's saints were so powerful they would
interecede for them and pass their prayers to their Yoruba

counterparts

Post by Matthew

(How

Post by ahlahan
infinetely wiser that the attitude of the catholic church!) . Here's a

case

Post by ahlahan
where the simplicity and purity of soul of the slaves , saw them not only
through their slavery but allowed them to pass their belives to their
children. Eventually the lines between christian icons and yoruba deities
was blurred BUT had not been for the profound sensitivity of those very
first african slaves Santeria would never had existed. Yes many things has
the cuban culture offered the world.
The Cuban food (hmmmm!)
The Cuban heel
The Cuban jewelry link
The Cuban Guyabera
The Cuban coffee
The Cuban cigar
The Cuban dog (Cubanesse)
and of course the Cuban music
But Santeria is 100% an african religion.
Hope this helps.

if I recall my readings regarding Santería and Ifá religions, Santería is
definitely a western religion which had its roots in the African Ifá
religion. African Ifá does not use Christian saints to hide their true
beliefs from outsiders.

[kaysee]

I learned to cha cha cha from a Cuban, who insisted that we start on the 2.

I need to pull out my Perez Prado.

kaysee

Post by Matthew
The major way to tell is whether the dance
patterns which blend most closely with the structure of the tune begin
on the "1" (which is true for a cha-cha-cha)

Matthew, I don't agree with that. If you dance cha-cha-cha on the 1,
then when your feet do the "cha-cha-cha" part of the step, they are
out of sync with the cha-cha-cha of the music (you will start a beat
to early). Starting on 2 perfectly synchonises your feet with the
rhythm...

exactly what instrument(s) play(s) the cha-cha-chá of the music you are
referring to?
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa" (http://dmreed.com)

[Chris Smalt]

exactly what instrument(s) play(s) the cha-cha-chá of the music you are
referring to?

People, I remove soc.culture.cuba and the other group that Matthew
accidentally crossposted this thread to.

Dennis: we discussed this a few times before, but I've come up with a
better answer than last time: how about the vocals? The first three
cha-cha-chá melodies I can think of emphasize 4&1, often with the words
"cha-cha-chá". Eg. "El Bodeguero", "Yo Te Invito A Bailar Cha-cha-chá",
La engañadora.


Chris

[Mikkalai]

Post by Chris Smalt

exactly what instrument(s) play(s) the cha-cha-chá of the music you are
referring to?

People, I remove soc.culture.cuba and the other group that Matthew
accidentally crossposted this thread to.
Dennis: we discussed this a few times before, but I've come up with a
better answer than last time: how about the vocals? The first three
cha-cha-chá melodies I can think of emphasize 4&1, often with the words
"cha-cha-chá". Eg. "El Bodeguero", "Yo Te Invito A Bailar Cha-cha-chá",
La engañadora.

:
Be careful here. Many gringos (and not only gringos, come to think) sing
"cha-cha-cha" at any place:
on 2&3 (it is almost OK) ("Senorita Cha-Cha-Cha") on 3&4 ("One, two,
Cha-cha-cha, Three, four, cha-cha-cha"), on 1&2 (plenty of cowboy cha-chas).

In one place I go dancing Salsa, they occasiaonally throw in what they call
Cha-Cha-Cha which has a distinct cha-cha-cha shuffle on 1&2 and/or on 3&4;
the latter basically fits the pattern of "Salsa on 1", if you think of
replacing the slow step by the shuffle.

;mikkalai
''''

[dmreed]

Post by Chris Smalt

exactly what instrument(s) play(s) the cha-cha-chá of the music you are
referring to?

People, I remove soc.culture.cuba and the other group that Matthew
accidentally crossposted this thread to.
Dennis: we discussed this a few times before, but I've come up with a
better answer than last time: how about the vocals? The first three
cha-cha-chá melodies I can think of emphasize 4&1, often with the words
"cha-cha-chá". Eg. "El Bodeguero", "Yo Te Invito A Bailar Cha-cha-chá",
La engañadora.

also Las Classes del Cha Cha Chá but it still seems natural for me and many
others to dance 1 2 chachachá. it does not seem strange at all to dance with
the "chachachá" different than the "chachachá" in the vocals or in the güiro
pattern.

[dmreed]

exactly what instrument(s) play(s) the cha-cha-chá of the music you are
referring to?

Hi Dennis,
Went home last night and put a few tunes on to try and figure that
out, because even though I (almost) always know when it is a
cha-cha-cha, I've never really analysed why.
In most of the tracks I put on, the percussion - guiro, conga, campana
- all seemed to be playing the cha-cha-cha, but I also felt that the
feel of it also had to do with the phrasing of the piano tumbao - it
seems different from that in a regular son montuno.

funny, the conga pattern on the older traditional conga was

1&2&3&4&1&2&3&4&
htshthoohtshthoh

no chachachá there that I can see/hear

Having said that, it occurred to me to play Manolito's Se Rompieron
Los Termometros, one of my favourite cha-cha-chas and wouldn't you
know it? The percussion that was so obviously giving it the feel on
the other songs wasn't present on this track, though the same piano
tumbao feel was... Maybe that's why it's listed as being "cha-cha-cha
fusion" on the liner notes... Funny thing is, from the moment I first
heard it I identified it as a cha-cha-cha, as did the Habaneros in the
audience when I saw them at casa de la musica: about 15 of them lined
up in front of the stage, and danced the cha-cha-cha step (side by
side and in unison) - all on 2 - to the song.
I wish Orlando were online at the moment, he's the guy who could
really sort this out. Maybe Manolito expert Bill can help out - I know
he loves that track...

there was a very long thread on chachachá a couple of years ago and if I recall correctly on of the main distinguishing characteristics was the piano pattern which is quite different than a son tumbao...not the conga pattern...other distinguishing characteristics were also given

I have noticed that NY and West Coast chachachá frequently had a bell patterns while many Cuban bell patterns seemed to use basically the second pattern

1&2&3&4& or 1&2&3&4& or 1&2&3&4&
OoOoOoOo O ooO oo O O O O


Orlando and others can provide such information

[Keith Johnson]

Post by dmreed
1&2&3&4&1&2&3&4&
htsOOtoohtsthtoo

Interesting - to me that looks like a 3-2 pattern. Is it that old issue
of congas playing with or against the clave?

Post by dmreed
I will look at Mauleón again but I think the basic Cuban conga tumbao
1&2&3&4&
htsthtoo
htsthtot

Isn't the first of these exactly what I've written in the .PDF? I'm
confused now - are you saying this is right or wrong?

Cheers,

Keith

[Keith Johnson]

I don't recall ever hearing claves (the instrument) being played in a
chachachá, does chachachá really have a clave or is it more like a straight
4/4?

You're right - it usually isn't played explicitly - I just included it
there for completeness and to clarify the clave direction. I think
chachachá does have a bit of a clave feel to it - the way the piano
plays on the beat at the beginning of the first bar of each pair and
inevitably anticipates the second bar by an eighth note is a dead
giveaway to the 2-3 clave direction. I think maybe this is the source of
confusion for many about the son montuno/chachachá issue, but as you say
the key to the latter is the straight 4 feel played by the timbalero on
the cha bell.

I don't recognize the given conga pattern as a pattern regularly used in
chachachá, where did you get this pattern?

Rebeca Mauleon gives it in both her chachachá examples in "The Salsa
Guidebook" (she also includes the clave). As you know, it's just the
standard conga tumbao, and I guess it works, but most of the conga
players I know would probably play something else, a bit more freely (as
I'm sure you would). What patterns would you actually favour?

Keith

[Keith Johnson]

a small follow-up...just thought I'd ask

Got this from you by email, but posting back to the newsgroup as well -
hope that's OK...

on the chart I see bell and timbales...when I have seen chachachás
played there is not a bell other than the bell (usually the small bell)
on the timbales and the timbale bell pattern is usually one of the
1&2&3&4&
ococococ where o=open tone and c=closed tone
o oco oc

Dennis -

I should have said, in my chart I explicitly included a separate line
for the cha bell, but in fact this is the one played by the timbalero.
Maybe I'll remove the extra line and just add a legend to the timbales
line instead.

I did a bit more research. In "The Essence of Afro-Cuban Percussion &
Drum Set" Ed Uribe gives a chart pretty much the same as the one I gave,
although elsewhere in the book he suggests a couple of alternative
chachachá bell patterns.

In "Latin-American Percussion" Birger Sulsbrück gives both the patterns
you describe above as alternatives. Personally I've also seen another
one being used, which Rebeca Mauleón also offers and which I hinted at
in the last bar of my chart: -

1&2&3&4&
o o o oc

In this one, the additional closed tone on the 4& helps to outline the
chachachá rhythm of the dancers' feet.

the first pattern was what I heard from both the East and West coasts in
the 60s and 70s...I understand that the second pattern was used a lot in
Cuba

I've seen all these patterns in use when watching timbaleros and when
playing myself. I think the key thing is the solid 4-beats-to-a-bar of
open tones on the higher pitched cha bell - all the other off-beat
closed tones can be considered as decoration only. This 4-beat cuts
through and contrasts with the 2-to-a-bar open tones component of the
bongo bell pattern in other rhythms such as son montuno etc. I believe
this element coupled with the usually slower tempo is almost sufficient
to distinguish a chachachá from the other rhythms, even before you
consider the piano and bass parts.

do you have any more info which might support or contradict this?

I think the above mentioned two books, in conjunction with Mauleón make
a pretty comprehensive reference section for our favourite music :-)

Keith

[dmreed]

your efforts are greatly appreciated
--
Aché

Dennis M. Reed "Califa" (http://dmreed.com)

Post by Keith Johnson
I should have said, in my chart I explicitly included a separate line
for the cha bell, but in fact this is the one played by the timbalero.
Maybe I'll remove the extra line and just add a legend to the timbales
line instead.

I've updated the .PDF slightly to show the cha bell pattern as part of
the timbales line, and indicated that the clave is only for reference.
For those RMALers who don't see binary attachments in this group, I'm
posting this also to alt.binaries.sheet-music and
alt.binaries.sounds.mp3.latin.
Keith

[Chris Smalt]

Here's the file again using UUencoding, which everyone should have.
Keith

Keith: many ISPs don't allow binaries in a text group. I don't get to
see the attachments. Please repost to a binaries group.


Chris

[Keith Johnson]

Post by Chris Smalt
Keith: many ISPs don't allow binaries in a text group. I don't get to
see the attachments. Please repost to a binaries group.

OK - I'll post it to alt.binaries.sheet-music

Keith

[Chris Smalt]

Post by Keith Johnson
OK - I'll post it to alt.binaries.sheet-music

Oops - that group isn't on any of the servers I have access to.
How about alt.binaries.sounds.utilities? (Very crowded)
Or alt.binaries.hebrew? (This last one is really quiet, making it
easier to find the file.)


Chris

[dmreed]

but please post as attachment too!
--
Aché

Dennis M. Reed "Califa" (http://dmreed.com)

Post by Chris Smalt

Here's the file again using UUencoding, which everyone should have.
Keith

Keith: many ISPs don't allow binaries in a text group. I don't get to
see the attachments. Please repost to a binaries group.
Chris

[Keith Johnson]

Post by dmreed
but please post as attachment too!

I did post it as a binary attachment - twice. Don't understand why
people have had problems, unless it was the yEnc issue with the first
post. In my newsreader, Agent, it shows up in the group as a message
with an attachment for me, but I don't know about Outlook Express. That
pile of junk is useless for reading newsgroups. If I remember rightly,
it is not clever enough to reassemble the parts of a multipart binary
attachment automatically, unlike Agent, so while emails with attachments
are handled OK, binary newsgroup postings are a nightmare.

Keith

[C. L.]

Post by Keith Johnson
I don't know about Outlook Express. That
pile of junk is useless for reading newsgroups.

Yea because some of us want to download and use a whole new program just for
newsgroups. Puhleeze.

[dmreed]

Post by C. L.

Post by Keith Johnson
I don't know about Outlook Express. That
pile of junk is useless for reading newsgroups.

Yea because some of us want to download and use a whole new program just for
newsgroups. Puhleeze.

gee...I have not seen any poll to determine which email programs are being
used or which ISPs are being used. I suspect that I am not the only one
using Outlook or Outlook Express. and my ISP does allow attachments on
emails.

IMO the "least common denominator" principle should be used for such info
when posted so the most RMAL members can receive the posts.

[Keith Johnson]

Post by dmreed
IMO the "least common denominator" principle should be used for such info
when posted so the most RMAL members can receive the posts.

Sure - my point was just that Outlook Express is not very clever when it
comes to newsgroups. I use them a lot, and I just couldn't cope if I had
to use OE, especially when there are so many better options. Trouble is,
everyone takes what uncle Bill Gates offers without realising there are
many other things that are much better (and often free).

:-)

Keith

[dmreed]

thought the chachachá PDF was posted without an attachment and as an
attachment...maybe he just sent it to me???

I think I sent some attachments a couple of years ago
--
Aché

Dennis M. Reed "Califa" (http://dmreed.com)

I've never seen an attachment in RMAL, but I do in other groups. I use OE

Post by Keith Johnson

Post by dmreed
IMO the "least common denominator" principle should be used for such

info

Post by Keith Johnson

Post by dmreed
when posted so the most RMAL members can receive the posts.

Sure - my point was just that Outlook Express is not very clever when it
comes to newsgroups. I use them a lot, and I just couldn't cope if I had
to use OE, especially when there are so many better options. Trouble is,
everyone takes what uncle Bill Gates offers without realising there are
many other things that are much better (and often free).
:-)
Keith

I appreciate your opinions...I have not had any trouble with OE...over

the

years I have tried several email and newsgroup programs. I use OE simply
because it is adequate for me and it is quite easy to use.
I am still curious how many RMALers have ISPs who do not allow email
attachments.
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa" (http://dmreed.com)

[tumbao]

I have Outlook. Your file was attached, so I guess it's not THAT useless...

Post by Keith Johnson

Post by dmreed
but please post as attachment too!

I did post it as a binary attachment - twice. Don't understand why
people have had problems, unless it was the yEnc issue with the first
post. In my newsreader, Agent, it shows up in the group as a message
with an attachment for me, but I don't know about Outlook Express. That
pile of junk is useless for reading newsgroups. If I remember rightly,
it is not clever enough to reassemble the parts of a multipart binary
attachment automatically, unlike Agent, so while emails with attachments
are handled OK, binary newsgroup postings are a nightmare.
Keith

[Keith Johnson]

Post by tumbao
I have Outlook. Your file was attached, so I guess it's not THAT useless...

Small binary files which fit in a single message will generally come
through, but multi-part binaries where the file is split across several
messages are usually not automatically reassembled by Outlook Express.
This makes downloading from binary newsgroups a nightmare....

Keith

[Lillian Martinez]

I would like to get piano sheet music for simplified En Tres por Cuatro by
Ernesto Lecuona. Do you know of any such thing and where I can get it?
Lillian
http://xld.com/public/cuba/cuba.htm

exactly what instrument(s) play(s) the cha-cha-chá of the music you are
referring to?

Hi Dennis,
Went home last night and put a few tunes on to try and figure that
out, because even though I (almost) always know when it is a
cha-cha-cha, I've never really analysed why.
In most of the tracks I put on, the percussion - guiro, conga, campana
- all seemed to be playing the cha-cha-cha, but I also felt that the
feel of it also had to do with the phrasing of the piano tumbao - it
seems different from that in a regular son montuno.
Having said that, it occurred to me to play Manolito's Se Rompieron
Los Termometros, one of my favourite cha-cha-chas and wouldn't you
know it? The percussion that was so obviously giving it the feel on
the other songs wasn't present on this track, though the same piano
tumbao feel was... Maybe that's why it's listed as being "cha-cha-cha
fusion" on the liner notes... Funny thing is, from the moment I first
heard it I identified it as a cha-cha-cha, as did the Habaneros in the
audience when I saw them at casa de la musica: about 15 of them lined
up in front of the stage, and danced the cha-cha-cha step (side by
side and in unison) - all on 2 - to the song.
I wish Orlando were online at the moment, he's the guy who could
really sort this out. Maybe Manolito expert Bill can help out - I know
he loves that track...
Gabriel

[Gerry Scott-Moore]

Post by Lillian Martinez
I would like to get piano sheet music for simplified En Tres por Cuatro by
Ernesto Lecuona. Do you know of any such thing and where I can get it?

I have it in a large folio: "Ernesto Lecuona - Piano Music" published
(actually "re-issued") by Hal Leonard. These are reprints of the
original sheet music as published by Edward B. Marks Pub. (1928-1944).

A simplified version of this piece? Not currently in print, no. In the
USA (as of May '99), the only published version is the one listed
above. Actually as mechanically difficult goes, this isn't so
terrible. In may take some time for a novice to read through, but once
done it looks pretty easy to play.

This folio came out in '96, at the 100th anniversary of his birth. It
is in print now. You'd think a large folio like this (over 50 of his
songs and/or piano pieces) by a master would be available indefinitely.
But that's doubtful. If it's successful enough for the print run to
sell out one day, they'll breath a sigh of relief and it will
dissappear for another few decades.

Apparently Lecuona was affiliated with Marks. Leonard has either
bought Marks or licensed their catalog. A flood of old Marks publishing
efforts looking exactly like the originals photo-stated (which I think
they are), began appearing in the mid 90's after Marks had languished
for a long time.

More information on their offerings of Lecuona here:

<http://www.halleonard.com/search_items.jsp?keywords=ernesto+lecuona&cat
code=00&type=product>

Good luck.

[Lillian Martinez]

Post by Gerry Scott-Moore

Post by Lillian Martinez
I would like to get piano sheet music for simplified En Tres por Cuatro by
Ernesto Lecuona. Do you know of any such thing and where I can get it?

I have it in a large folio: "Ernesto Lecuona - Piano Music" published
(actually "re-issued") by Hal Leonard. These are reprints of the
original sheet music as published by Edward B. Marks Pub. (1928-1944).
A simplified version of this piece? Not currently in print, no. In the
USA (as of May '99), the only published version is the one listed
above. Actually as mechanically difficult goes, this isn't so
terrible. In may take some time for a novice to read through, but once
done it looks pretty easy to play.

Yes, it is easy, but it uses octaves. I have a small hand and the
separation between my fingers is reduced due to rheumatoid arthritis. So I
want a version that uses fifths or sixths instead.

I had guessed I probably would not find it, but I had to confirm so. This
confirms it. Thanks.

I will have to adjust it myself. I must play this piece. I'm gung ho over
it. Nothing else will substitute for it. I just must learn this piece.

Post by Gerry Scott-Moore
This folio came out in '96, at the 100th anniversary of his birth. It
is in print now. You'd think a large folio like this (over 50 of his
songs and/or piano pieces) by a master would be available indefinitely.
But that's doubtful. If it's successful enough for the print run to
sell out one day, they'll breath a sigh of relief and it will
dissappear for another few decades.
Apparently Lecuona was affiliated with Marks. Leonard has either
bought Marks or licensed their catalog. A flood of old Marks publishing
efforts looking exactly like the originals photo-stated (which I think
they are), began appearing in the mid 90's after Marks had languished
for a long time.
<http://www.halleonard.com/search_items.jsp?keywords=ernesto+lecuona&cat
code=00&type=product>
Good luck.
--
///---

Wow! what a surprise to find such a knowledgeable person about this here.
This also confirms that I can find out anything in this newsgroup.

Lillian
http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

[Lillian Martinez]

Post by Lillian Martinez

Post by Gerry Scott-Moore
A simplified version of this piece? Not currently in print, no. In
the USA (as of May '99), the only published version is the one
listed above. Actually as mechanically difficult goes, this isn't
so terrible. In may take some time for a novice to read through,
but once done it looks pretty easy to play.

Yes, it is easy, but it uses octaves. I have a small hand and the
separation between my fingers is reduced due to rheumatoid arthritis.
So I want a version that uses fifths or sixths instead.
I had guessed I probably would not find it, but I had to confirm so.
This confirms it. Thanks.
I will have to adjust it myself. I must play this piece. I'm gung
ho over it. Nothing else will substitute for it. I just must learn
this piece.

If this is the case, I would suggest dropping the octave rather than
adding 6ths or fifths. In many places I think it can live without the
doubling. Especially if there is emphasis on the remaining line.
I'm curious, let me know how it goes.

Thanks for your expert assessment. It's a pleasure to talk to someone who
is knowledgeable.

I think, however, that most of these chords only have thirds remaining if
the octave is removed. That would be too simple. Not enough substance.
My rheumatoid arthritis is not that bad. I play some Chopin, and thirds
just seem too simple and not challenging enough. No fun. It also wouldn't
sound very majestic.

Thanks and take care,
Lillian

Post by Lillian Martinez
Wow! what a surprise to find such a knowledgeable person about this
here. This also confirms that I can find out anything in this
newsgroup.

We all have our little enclaves of information; you just happened to
encounter a convergence of several generally useless pieces of info I
happened to have.
--
///---

[Lillian Martinez]

Thanks Gerry., It does sound like fifths are better than sixths after
listening to you talk. You sound like you know what you're talking about.
That actually makes sense.
Lillian
http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

Post by Lillian Martinez

If this is the case, I would suggest dropping the octave rather than
adding 6ths or fifths. In many places I think it can live without the
doubling. Especially if there is emphasis on the remaining line.

I think, however, that most of these chords only have thirds remaining if
the octave is removed. That would be too simple. Not enough substance.
My rheumatoid arthritis is not that bad. I play some Chopin, and thirds
just seem too simple and not challenging enough. No fun. It also wouldn't
sound very majestic.

Whatever sounds best to you. I find myself feeling "cheated" by no
more than parallel thirds and sixths sometimes, for lacking a certain
substance. The ear of the behearer that. On the other hand parallel
fifths can quickly turn bombastic.
--
///---

[Orlando Fiol]

In most of the tracks I put on, the percussion - guiro, conga, campana
- all seemed to be playing the cha-cha-cha, but I also felt that the
feel of it also had to do with the phrasing of the piano tumbao - it
seems different from that in a regular son montuno.

Absolutely. The typical piano tumbao has the right hand playing all the
downbeats, with the left hand echoing the chords one pulse later, among
other things.

Having said that, it occurred to me to play Manolito's Se Rompieron
Los Termometros, one of my favourite cha-cha-chas and wouldn't you
know it? The percussion that was so obviously giving it the feel on
the other songs wasn't present on this track, though the same piano
tumbao feel was... Maybe that's why it's listed as being "cha-cha-cha
fusion" on the liner notes... Funny thing is, from the moment I first
heard it I identified it as a cha-cha-cha, as did the Habaneros in the
audience when I saw them at casa de la musica: about 15 of them lined
up in front of the stage, and danced the cha-cha-cha step (side by
side and in unison) - all on 2 - to the song.

That's probably because the bass and piano tumbaos really identify the
chachacha unlike conga, timbal or guiro patterns. After all, the
typical conga tumbao for chachacha can and is often played during mambos
in son montuno, the guiro is the same for both and the timbal's chacha
bell pattern can be interpreted as being the same as the bongo bell.

I wish Orlando were online at the moment, he's the guy who could
really sort this out. Maybe Manolito expert Bill can help out - I know
he loves that track...

Fear not, Orlando is back online after a baptism by fire into Win 2K.
Damn, how can I make Windows Explorer always open on the C drive rather
than in My Computer?

Orlando

[Orlando Fiol]

***@xentrik.co.uk wrote:
5. Cha cha chás are invariably in 2-3 clave - not a big clue, as most

salsa tunes are in 2-3 anyway.

What makes you think that? I'd say the clave difference is perhaps
60/40 in favor of 2/3.

6. The Cha cha chá has a definite solid 4-to-a-bar feel. Although son
and son montuno are often written in 4-4 nowadays, they should really
have a 2-to-a-bar feel (they used to be written in 2-4). Despite this,
you often see many players frantically tapping their feet at 4-to-a-bar
when playing salsa tunes, as if they were dancing it, not playing it.

Try as I may, I can't feel salsa 4 to the bar, which is needed for
dancing. Can't someone create a cut time step? <smile>

7. As I said, the piano often plays a vamp instead of a regular montuno,
although if it does play a montuno this is usually "straightened out" on
the 3-side of the clave, playing solidly on the 3 and 4 beats of this
bar. In a son montuno the piano pattern is generally more syncopated on
the 3-side - in fact the only on-beat notes would be the first two beats
of the 2-side, with everything else off the beat. Jazz players and
novice latin players often fail to grasp this, and play a montuno more
suitable for cha cha chá with everything, leaning heavily on the 3 and 4
beats of the second bar.

Piano and violin montunos can often be entirely syncopated except for
the downbeat of the 2 side, even in chachacha, as long as the percussion
and bass are providing the appropriate clues. Nonetheless, I definitely
agree with your assessment of novice Latin players and jazzers playing
chachacha montunos in most situations.

8. The bass patterns also often emphasise the 3 and 4 beats of the
3-side in a cha cha chá, or they sometimes play 2 eighth notes on beat 4
and a quarter note on beat 1 of the next bar to emphasise the "cha cha
chá"

That would mean that the "chachacha" gets pushed back a beat from where
most people dance it.

Orlando

[Keith Johnson]

Post by Orlando Fiol
Piano and violin montunos can often be entirely syncopated except for
the downbeat of the 2 side, even in chachacha, as long as the percussion
and bass are providing the appropriate clues.

I think we're saying the same thing here - the first bar of the 2-side
usually starts with a quarter note on beat 1 followed by an eighth note
on beat 2 then everything else off-beat. As a tres player in Havana
pointed out to me, in pure son it's common to drop the first downbeat
also in some bars, and play through for several bars entirely off the
beat before playing a downbeat at a new phrase boundary.

Post by Orlando Fiol
That would mean that the "chachacha" gets pushed back a beat from where
most people dance it.

Yes - I think that's how some people interpret it and dance it. Whether
that's right or not I don't know, but there's a discussion of this
somewhere else in this rather long thread. :-)

Keith

[Chris Smalt]

they sometimes play 2 eighth notes on beat 4

and a quarter note on beat 1 of the next bar to emphasise the "cha cha
chá"

That would mean that the "chachacha" gets pushed back a beat from where
most people dance it.

I don't know how most people dance it - in my experience they prefer to
sit those tunes out. But the Cubans really get off on cha-cha-chá, and
dance it based on son contra tiempo, causing the cha-cha-chá to fall on
4&1.


Chris

[Keith Johnson]

Post by Orlando Fiol
5. Cha cha chás are invariably in 2-3 clave - not a big clue, as most

salsa tunes are in 2-3 anyway.

What makes you think that? I'd say the clave difference is perhaps
60/40 in favor of 2/3.

Maybe it depends on where you play and where you dance. In the pad for
my band I cannot think of a single tune with a 3-2 melody. I also do 4
hours of salsa dance classes a week, and I cannot remember the last time
I heard a track in 3-2 played there. In fact, a couple of weeks ago I
was teaching our dance instructor some bell patterns and explaining the
different clave directions, but we couldn't find an example starting in
3-2 on any of his CDs.

Keith

[Orlando Fiol]

I don't recall ever hearing claves (the instrument) being played in a
chachachá, does chachachá really have a clave or is it more like a straight
4/4?

I'd say that for all intents and purposes, clave is not a compelling
structure in chachacha, even though montunos clearly have a more
syncopated portion meant to coincide with the 3 side. That said, I
normally don't think of clave in my head when hearing chachachas.

Orlando

[Bill Wolfer]

Having said that, it occurred to me to play Manolito's Se Rompieron
Los Termometros, one of my favourite cha-cha-chas and wouldn't you
know it? The percussion that was so obviously giving it the feel on
the other songs wasn't present on this track, though the same piano
tumbao feel was... Maybe that's why it's listed as being "cha-cha-cha
fusion" on the liner notes... Funny thing is, from the moment I first
heard it I identified it as a cha-cha-cha, as did the Habaneros in the
audience when I saw them at casa de la musica: about 15 of them lined
up in front of the stage, and danced the cha-cha-cha step (side by
side and in unison) - all on 2 - to the song.
I wish Orlando were online at the moment, he's the guy who could
really sort this out. Maybe Manolito expert Bill can help out - I know
he loves that track...
Gabriel

yes, I do. That tune, and Klimax's versions of Oye Como Va and Cuba
are great examples of what I simply think of as modern cha cha chá.
It's updated, the feel is different. I used it on the new Mamborama CD
on a track called Oye Mamborama, which you can listen to here:

http://www.mamborama.com/mp3/hifi/oye.m3u

If you're on a dialup connection use this link:

http://www.mamborama.com/mp3/lofi/oye.m3u

Funny thing about Manolito's Se Rompieron tune, they weren't playing
it in Havana when the CD first came out. I asked the guys why not, and
they said that Cubans didn't like to dance chachacha. It took about a
year before they started playing at casa de la musica, I guess due to
radio play it got accepted, I don't know.

Bill

[dmreed]

Post by Bill Wolfer
yes, I do. That tune, and Klimax's versions of Oye Como Va and Cuba
are great examples of what I simply think of as modern cha cha chá.
It's updated, the feel is different. I used it on the new Mamborama CD
http://www.mamborama.com/mp3/hifi/oye.m3u
Funny thing about Manolito's Se Rompieron tune, they weren't playing
it in Havana when the CD first came out. I asked the guys why not, and
they said that Cubans didn't like to dance chachacha. It took about a
year before they started playing at casa de la musica, I guess due to
radio play it got accepted, I don't know.

thanks for the link Bill...great tune

I am not generally a fan of the new Cuban music but this tune I really
like...it seems more straight forward than much of the new music.

I do hope we get a chance to meet one of these days!

thanks again

[Matthew]

Trust nothing you read in liner notes about Cuban musical forms. Go
to the source, from where son montuno was created, in Oriente, and
learn it from the people whose families invented the form, as opposed
to those non-Cubans yanked off the street to throw some liner notes
together in a hurry.

Matthew

Post by kaysee
Or is there no difference?
I was just listening to Tito Puente's Dance Mania I CD (actually I've been
listening to it off and on all week) and I noticed that all the songs that I
think of as chachacha are labeled son montuno!
1. El Cayuco - Son Montuno
2. Complicación - Guaguanco
3. 3-D Mambo
4. Llego Miján - Son Montuno
5. Cuando te vea - Guaguanco
6. Hong Kong Mambo
7. Mambo Gozón
8. Mi chiquita quiere bembé - Cha cha cha Bembé
9. Varsity Drag
10. Estoy siempre junto a tí - Bolero
11. Agua limpia todo - Guaguanco
12. Saca tu mujer - Guaracha
(The unlabeled ones are all mambos.)
The guaguancos all play like modern salsa to me, while the mambos sound
mostly dated, or seem to lean towards latin jazz. But the son montunos are
cha cha chas! (They actually have the word[s] chachacha sung by the coro in
them.)
What's up with that? Is this why my instinctive reaction to any son montuno
I hear is to chachacha?
kaysee

[Bill Wolfer]

Post by Matthew
Trust nothing you read in liner notes about Cuban musical forms. Go
to the source, from where son montuno was created, in Oriente, and
learn it from the people whose families invented the form, as opposed
to those non-Cubans yanked off the street to throw some liner notes
together in a hurry.

funny thing is, I was headed off to oriente to figure this one out, so
I could post my findings here, when I was yanked off the street to
throw some liner notes together quick. They promise to let me go as
soon as I can figure out the sub-genres of the new Carlos Manuel
album. I think one tune is definitely Dreck Montuno, but then again,
it might be Timba Monga. The mariachi band is throwing me off.
Non-Cubans take care when walking the streets!

And now a word from our non-corporate sponsor:

Mamborama/Entre La Habana Y El Yuma in stores August 26!

[Bill Wolfer]

Post by Bill Wolfer
Mamborama/Entre La Habana Y El Yuma in stores August 26!

... already rolling on my cd player since a couple of months! Great
album, Bill! By the way, would anyone fancy a home-made review in...
Italian, out there? Here it is! (posted some weeks ago on the
newsgroup it.arti.ballo.lat-americano)
Ciao!
Ferr
("Los Enterados" - Genoa, Italy)

Ciao Ferr, thanks for that great review! I don't speak Italian, but I
do speak enough Spanish to get the gist of it. Hooray for the
Italians, they are the best supporters of Mamborama!

Bill