Ozawa - underestimated?

Post by Andy Evans
What is it exactly about Ozawa - he's rarely mentioned in polite
company yet the couple of CDs I have of him - Falla Tricorne and the
Rite - are quite superb. Is this just 'his' kind of repertoire in which
he excels. What gives? Andy

I wouldn't really know, except that as far as recordings go, Ozawa hasn't
recorded a major cycle of anything, (Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, LvB), has
he?

I recently acquired three Eloquence CDs of Ozawa's orchestral Ravel. Quite
good actually, with a very nice Tombeau, Menuet antique (a charming work),
Pavane, Daphnis, and Mother Goose. I think La Valse escapes him a bit though
(hardly any real sinister, misty quality about it), and goes some way to
summing him up maybe. A pretty good conductor in the more balletic type
music.

Anyway, a pleasing collection of Ravel from Ozawa, recorded mid 70s for DG.
The Boston SO sound gorgeous too, in fairly respectable sound. Certainly far
more vivid, than accorded to Colin Davis, for his Sibelius set with them.

Ray H
Taree, NSW

Bob Harper

2007-01-10 02:11:29 UTC

TareeDawg wrote:
(snip)

Post by TareeDawg
I wouldn't really know, except that as far as recordings go, Ozawa hasn't
recorded a major cycle of anything, (Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, LvB), has
he?

Actually, there is a Mahler cycle with the Boston SO. I haven't heard
it, but I remember some positive mentions here, though none of the
performances has ever been anyone's first choice.

The Mahler 2nd and 9th Symphonies with the Saito Kinen Orchestra are
excellent. Don't know about the other discs he's done with them.

Bob Harper

Post by TareeDawg
I recently acquired three Eloquence CDs of Ozawa's orchestral Ravel. Quite
good actually, with a very nice Tombeau, Menuet antique (a charming work),
Pavane, Daphnis, and Mother Goose. I think La Valse escapes him a bit though
(hardly any real sinister, misty quality about it), and goes some way to
summing him up maybe. A pretty good conductor in the more balletic type
music.
Anyway, a pleasing collection of Ravel from Ozawa, recorded mid 70s for DG.
The Boston SO sound gorgeous too, in fairly respectable sound. Certainly far
more vivid, than accorded to Colin Davis, for his Sibelius set with them.
Ray H
Taree, NSW

Gerard

2007-01-10 08:13:48 UTC

Post by Bob Harper
Actually, there is a Mahler cycle with the Boston SO. I haven't heard
it, but I remember some positive mentions here, though none of the
performances has ever been anyone's first choice.
The Mahler 2nd and 9th Symphonies with the Saito Kinen Orchestra are
excellent. Don't know about the other discs he's done with them.

Of these Mahler recordings I know only the 2nd symphony with the Saito Kinen
Orchestra (a live recording), and it is excellent indeed. (This recording has
been dumped by Sony since more than a year; I have found copies with prices of 1
Euro and of 5 Euro's).

Proboscis

2007-01-10 08:29:09 UTC

Post by Gerard
Of these Mahler recordings I know only the 2nd symphony with the Saito Kinen
Orchestra (a live recording), and it is excellent indeed.

I agree fully.

On a different note, here in Asia I don't think Ozawa is underestimated.
Rather the opposite.

Many times I hear him mentioned as one of the best conductors of all time.

tomdeacon

2007-01-10 17:44:37 UTC

Post by TareeDawg
Anyway, a pleasing collection of Ravel from Ozawa, recorded mid 70s for DG.
The Boston SO sound gorgeous too, in fairly respectable sound. Certainly far
more vivid, than accorded to Colin Davis, for his Sibelius set with them.

Are you joking?

This set - which was finally issued in a budget box which didn't sell -
was the curse of all curses on Philips Classics. A set which should
never have been, which was launched by the man who is now taking EMI
down the same golden path. Unsaleable.

Perhaps if you put them in brown paper bags and dropped them from
helicopters over Sumatra someone, somewhere, would pick them up.

TD

Bob Harper

2007-01-10 18:01:37 UTC

Post by tomdeacon

Are you joking?
This set - which was finally issued in a budget box which didn't sell -
was the curse of all curses on Philips Classics. A set which should
never have been, which was launched by the man who is now taking EMI
down the same golden path. Unsaleable.
Perhaps if you put them in brown paper bags and dropped them from
helicopters over Sumatra someone, somewhere, would pick them up.
TD

Um, I didn't write that. I've never heard a note of Ozawa's Ravel, so I
have no opinion in the matter. I *did* remark that his Japanese Mahler 2
and 9 were quite fine, an opinion I continue to hold.

Bob Harper

Steve de Mena

2007-01-11 03:22:00 UTC

Post by Bob Harper

Post by tomdeacon

Are you joking?
This set - which was finally issued in a budget box which didn't sell -
was the curse of all curses on Philips Classics. A set which should
never have been, which was launched by the man who is now taking EMI
down the same golden path. Unsaleable.
Perhaps if you put them in brown paper bags and dropped them from
helicopters over Sumatra someone, somewhere, would pick them up.
TD

Tom might be referring to the Davis Sibelius set?
I don't remember the DG Ozawa Ravel set ever
being on Philips.

Steve

TareeDawg

2007-01-10 22:40:20 UTC

Post by tomdeacon

Are you joking?

Bob Harper may not be, as he didn't write what you replied to.
And no, I am not joking. But you haven't even made clear as to what you are
even referring to. The Sibelius (recorded dimly by Philips), or the Ozawa
Ravel (recorded much better by DG).

Post by tomdeacon
This set - which was finally issued in a budget box which didn't sell -
was the curse of all curses on Philips Classics. A set which should
never have been, which was launched by the man who is now taking EMI
down the same golden path. Unsaleable.

What set? The Sibelius or the Ravel? Being as you mentioned Philips, one is
assuming the Sibelius. Right? And why would it be unsaleable? Bad marketing
strategy? Or dismal sound?

Post by tomdeacon
Perhaps if you put them in brown paper bags and dropped them from
helicopters over Sumatra someone, somewhere, would pick them up.

As Kruschev once remarked, "Gold sinks and shit floats". But however.

Ray H
Taree, NSW

A. Brain

2007-01-10 08:16:09 UTC

Post by TareeDawg

I wouldn't really know, except that as far as recordings go, Ozawa
hasn't recorded a major cycle of anything, (Mahler, Bruckner,
Sibelius, LvB), has he?

He recorded a Prokofiev cycle that is lowly regarded
by Penguin, as I recall. A friend has it and likes it.

I have that Mahler 2 that is highly regarded somewhere,
having "borrowed" it from a neighbor.

I also recall reading about how SO was a protege of
Leonard Bernstein and that on a visit to Japan with
the NYPO in the early '60s, with SO assisting
him, LB became a big fan
of sumu wrestling of all things. While he was
watching it on tv in his hotel room in Tokyo he
had become so "engrossed" in the spectacle that
he gashed his thumb with a fruit knife and
had to cancel a performance in Alaska the next
day where I guess he was to play a Ravel
piano concerto (so maybe it was the left
hand?).

I'm sure I would find sumu wrestling on
tv "engrossing" as well, though in a different
sense.

Trivia: what other famous conductor supposedly
liked to watch wrestling on television?

--
A. Brain

Remove NOSPAM for email.

TareeDawg

2007-01-10 08:48:25 UTC

Post by A. Brain

Post by TareeDawg

I wouldn't really know, except that as far as recordings go, Ozawa hasn't
recorded a major cycle of anything, (Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, LvB),
has he?

He recorded a Prokofiev cycle that is lowly regarded
by Penguin, as I recall. A friend has it and likes it.
I have that Mahler 2 that is highly regarded somewhere,
having "borrowed" it from a neighbor.
I also recall reading about how SO was a protege of
Leonard Bernstein and that on a visit to Japan with
the NYPO in the early '60s, with SO assisting
him, LB became a big fan
of sumu wrestling of all things. While he was
watching it on tv in his hotel room in Tokyo he
had become so "engrossed" in the spectacle that
he gashed his thumb with a fruit knife and
had to cancel a performance in Alaska the next
day where I guess he was to play a Ravel
piano concerto (so maybe it was the left
hand?).
I'm sure I would find sumu wrestling on
tv "engrossing" as well, though in a different
sense.
Trivia: what other famous conductor supposedly
liked to watch wrestling on television?

The Nini of course. An avid wrestling fan. Used to watch it on TV. Must have
been one of those very early 10" screen things.

Ray H
Taree, NSW

Jerry

2007-01-10 17:33:05 UTC

Mitropoulos ??

Post by A. Brain

Post by TareeDawg

I wouldn't really know, except that as far as recordings go, Ozawa
hasn't recorded a major cycle of anything, (Mahler, Bruckner,
Sibelius, LvB), has he?

He recorded a Prokofiev cycle that is lowly regarded
by Penguin, as I recall. A friend has it and likes it.
I have that Mahler 2 that is highly regarded somewhere,
having "borrowed" it from a neighbor.
I also recall reading about how SO was a protege of
Leonard Bernstein and that on a visit to Japan with
the NYPO in the early '60s, with SO assisting
him, LB became a big fan
of sumu wrestling of all things. While he was
watching it on tv in his hotel room in Tokyo he
had become so "engrossed" in the spectacle that
he gashed his thumb with a fruit knife and
had to cancel a performance in Alaska the next
day where I guess he was to play a Ravel
piano concerto (so maybe it was the left
hand?).
I'm sure I would find sumu wrestling on
tv "engrossing" as well, though in a different
sense.
Trivia: what other famous conductor supposedly
liked to watch wrestling on television?
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.

j***@aol.com

2007-01-10 03:02:11 UTC

He (and Mehta) are the most underrated conductors of our times...by
which I mean, no human being could possibly be as bad as everyone says
they are.

That's not saying anything.

Ozawa made many fine recordings and you just have to accept that owning
them won't get you any style points with snobs. The best of them
feature truly magnificent playing, whether with the Saito Kinen
Orchestra (their Brahms 4, their Mahler 2, for instance) or the BSO
(their Respighi, Ravel, some of their Mahler, their Bartok, Faure,
Berlioz, Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, Rimsky-Korsakov), or the CSO (Bartok,
Lutoslawski, Stravinsky, Beethoven, Mussorgsky, Rimsky-Korsakov), or
Toronto (Messiaen)

Maybe that tells you something about where his strengths are.

--Jeff

Rich Litel

2007-01-10 03:18:26 UTC

The best of them feature truly magnificent playing, whether with the
Saito Kinen Orchestra (their Brahms 4, their Mahler 2, for instance) or
the BSO...

I have often found Ozawa a little too soft around the edges however
recently I picked up a used cassette tape of his CSO/Rite, put it in my
Nak RX-303 deck and it blew my socks off (both performance and sound). It
has quickly become one of my most favorite Rites, and this is only from a
cassette on my second audio system (all vintage/analogue). I can only
imagine how the High Performance CD mastering sounds.

-Rich-

William Sommerwerck

2007-01-10 11:18:33 UTC

Post by j***@aol.com
He (and Mehta) are the most underrated conductors of our times...
by which I mean, no human being could possibly be as bad
as everyone says they are.
That's not saying anything.

Agreed with respect to Mehta. A coarse and not very insightful conductor,
but when he hooks up with the right repertoire (eg, Feste Romane), the
results can be startling. *

With respect to Ozawa... There's a certain ethnic prejudice (in my mind,
anyway) -- how can someone from the East have a good feeling for Western
music? (Heck, Western conductors have enough trouble!)

Perhaps the problem is that I haven't heard many Ozawa performances, and
none has impressed me.

* This performance is particularly amazing, because under his direction a
work which normally sounds like an incoherent mish-mash of orchestral sound
effects becomes coherent and exciting.

Dan Fowler

2007-01-10 15:17:29 UTC

I only own one Ozawa recording, which is the recording of Mendelssohn's
Midsummer Night's Dream with the BSO with narration by Judi Dench. It's one
of my favorite recordings of the complete work (I also like Previn and
Rilling's versions). I've been tempted to get his recording of Ravel's
works, but I have so many really outstanding recordings of Ravel's works
that acquiring Ozawa's renditions is low on my list.

Dan

Post by William Sommerwerck
Perhaps the problem is that I haven't heard many Ozawa performances, and
none has impressed me.

Alex

2007-01-11 13:49:32 UTC

Post by Dan Fowler
I only own one Ozawa recording, which is the recording of Mendelssohn's
Midsummer Night's Dream with the BSO with narration by Judi Dench. It's one
of my favorite recordings of the complete work (I also like Previn and
Rilling's versions).

Yep, that Ozawa MSND is excellent, I play it a lot. The Ozawa M2 from Japan
is also great.

d***@aol.com

2007-01-10 21:32:00 UTC

Post by William Sommerwerck
Agreed with respect to Mehta. A coarse and not very insightful conductor,
but when he hooks up with the right repertoire (eg, Feste Romane), the
results can be startling. *

I don't know what happened to Mehta: somewhere along the line he must
have lost interest in what he was doing. But he was an extremely good
conductor when he was in Los Angeles, and not just of bonbons like
Feste Romane. His Decca recording of Schoenberg's Variations for
Orchestra is one of the glories of the catalogue, an extraordinarily
comprehending, sensitive, and beautifully shaped performance.
Furthermore, he had some sort of ear for sonority, because the strings
of the Los Angeles Philharmonic sound more Viennese here than in any
recording with the Vienna Philharmonic I've ever heard: I don't know
to what extent it's an illusion created by the remarkable phrasing
Mehta draws from his strings and to what extent it's a question of
sound qua sound, but the violins sound gorgeous. Herr von Mehta's
recording of the Variations is vastly superior to the recordings by
Solti, Karajan, or Boulez either time out. Solti's brilliantly
recorded performance with the CSO is a triumph of sorts, gleaming and
virtuosically secure, but he doesn't begin to dig in and shape as Mehta
does. Karajan's Berlin Philharmonic sounds less comfortable with the
music than Mehta's L.A. Phil, less secure, and Karajan himself is
feeling his way into the music in a recording roughly contemporaneous
with Mehta's. There's nothing particularly right or wrong about
either of Boulez's recordings. They're more than adequate, but
Mehta's performance eclipses both of them. For what it's worth,
Richard Schulz once suggested that the later soporific Mehta seems to
come to life in Israel when the composer is Schoenberg, but that
doesn't explain his wonderful Vienna Philharmonic recording of
Mahler's 2nd.

-david gable

makropulos

2007-01-10 21:46:36 UTC

Post by d***@aol.com

He's a puzzle to me as well. The Mahler 2 is superb and so too - I
think - is his conducting of Turandot (the singing is perhaps another
story). Now, though, you've got me interested in hearing that
Schoenberg Variations performance, which I'm afraid I haven't heard. It
sounds downright special from your description (and since the piece is
too, I certainly want to hear it). But what about so much of the rest:
if ever there's a conductor asleep at the wheel, it's Mehta on some of
his duller days. Then again, I watched a film of him coaching some
younger conductors once, and he was making an effort - it was much more
interesting (and insightful) than I was expecting.

d***@aol.com

2007-01-10 22:15:18 UTC

M. Makropulos, Mehta's recording of the Variations for Orchestra has
been conveniently bundled into a Decca 2-fer of Schoenberg recordings
together with some of Dohn�nyi's:

Verkl�rte Nacht
Chamber Symphony no. 1
Variations for Orchestra
Los Angeles Philharmonic, Zubin Mehta

Five Pieces for Orchestra
Six Songs, op. 8
Erwartung
Anja Silja, Vienna Philharmonic, Christoph von Dohn�nyi

-david gable

makropulos

2007-01-10 23:18:53 UTC

Post by d***@aol.com
M. Makropulos, Mehta's recording of the Variations for Orchestra has
been conveniently bundled into a Decca 2-fer of Schoenberg recordings
Verklärte Nacht
Chamber Symphony no. 1
Variations for Orchestra
Los Angeles Philharmonic, Zubin Mehta
Five Pieces for Orchestra
Six Songs, op. 8
Erwartung
Anja Silja, Vienna Philharmonic, Christoph von Dohnányi
-david gable

On my way to amazon as I type... Thank you, David.

Curtis Croulet

2007-01-11 02:12:16 UTC

Post by d***@aol.com
Furthermore, he had some sort of ear for sonority, because the strings
of the Los Angeles Philharmonic sound more Viennese here than in any
recording with the Vienna Philharmonic I've ever heard: I don't know
to what extent it's an illusion created by the remarkable phrasing
Mehta draws from his strings and to what extent it's a question of
sound qua sound, but the violins sound gorgeous.

During Mehta's L.A. years, there was an interview, I think with Martin
Bernheimer in the L.A. Times (but it could have been elsewhere), wherein he
explicitly said he was trying to achieve a Viennese sound with the LA Phil.

--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W

d***@aol.com

2007-01-11 02:27:46 UTC

Post by Curtis Croulet
During Mehta's L.A. years, there was an interview, I think with Martin
Bernheimer in the L.A. Times (but it could have been elsewhere), wherein he
explicitly said he was trying to achieve a Viennese sound with the LA Phil.

Thanks, Curtis.

-david gable

Richard Schultz

2007-01-11 06:01:24 UTC

In article <***@o58g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, ***@aol.com <***@aol.com> wrote:

: I don't know what happened to Mehta: somewhere along the line he must
: have lost interest in what he was doing. But he was an extremely good
: conductor when he was in Los Angeles, and not just of bonbons like
: Feste Romane. His Decca recording of Schoenberg's Variations for
: Orchestra is one of the glories of the catalogue, an extraordinarily
: comprehending, sensitive, and beautifully shaped performance.

He actually still has a reasonably good touch with Schoenberg. I'm kind
of disappointed that it's unlikely in the extreme that I'll ever get to
hear him (or anyone else, for that matter) do Schmidt's 4th symphony,
the other half of that recording, IIRC.

: For what it's worth, Richard Schul[t]z once suggested that the later
: soporific Mehta seems to come to life in Israel when the composer is
: Schoenberg,

Oops. It looks like I just suggested it again.

: but that doesn't explain his wonderful Vienna Philharmonic recording of
: Mahler's 2nd.

Since I've been in Israel, he's done Mahler's 3d more than once, and it
was always very good (far better than when Zander did it here). His
Mahler 4th and 7th weren't soporific, but it was terrible. My disappointment
at my having to be out of town for Sarah Chang doing the Sibelius Violin
Concerto (I love how she does that piece) is more or less made up for by
my relief that I won't have to hear Mehta do Mahler's 7th for the second
time in three years.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
-- From the New York Daily Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

j***@aol.com

2007-01-11 07:01:56 UTC

Post by Richard Schultz
: I don't know what happened to Mehta: somewhere along the line he must
: have lost interest in what he was doing. But he was an extremely good
: conductor when he was in Los Angeles, and not just of bonbons like
: Feste Romane. His Decca recording of Schoenberg's Variations for
: Orchestra is one of the glories of the catalogue, an extraordinarily
: comprehending, sensitive, and beautifully shaped performance.
He actually still has a reasonably good touch with Schoenberg. I'm kind
of disappointed that it's unlikely in the extreme that I'll ever get to
hear him (or anyone else, for that matter) do Schmidt's 4th symphony,
the other half of that recording, IIRC.
: For what it's worth, Richard Schul[t]z once suggested that the later
: soporific Mehta seems to come to life in Israel when the composer is
: Schoenberg,
Oops. It looks like I just suggested it again.
: but that doesn't explain his wonderful Vienna Philharmonic recording of
: Mahler's 2nd.
Since I've been in Israel, he's done Mahler's 3d more than once, and it
was always very good (far better than when Zander did it here). His
Mahler 4th and 7th weren't soporific, but it was terrible. My disappointment
at my having to be out of town for Sarah Chang doing the Sibelius Violin
Concerto (I love how she does that piece) is more or less made up for by
my relief that I won't have to hear Mehta do Mahler's 7th for the second
time in three years.

I wonder why he hasn't recorded 7 yet...maybe he knows it's bad (I've
never heard him do it).

--Jeff

Richard Schultz

2007-01-11 10:12:31 UTC

In article <***@i56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, ***@aol.com wrote:
:> Since I've been in Israel, he's done Mahler's 3d more than once, and it
:> was always very good (far better than when Zander did it here). His
:> Mahler 4th and 7th weren't soporific, but it was terrible.

: I wonder why he hasn't recorded 7 yet...maybe he knows it's bad (I've
: never heard him do it).

If he knows it's bad, why did he program it twice in three years? Actually,
a lot of his programming with the IPO in the last few years has shown a
certain kind of laziness or tiredness (after all, he's not exactly a kid
any more). I found that his Mahler tends to be boring and stodgy (5,9)
or "individual" to the point where his interventions are unmusical and
in the case of the 4th, directly opposed to what Mahler wrote for no
clear reason.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
-- From the New York Daily Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

2007-01-10 03:06:30 UTC

Yes.

He's good at colors - impressionism, Stravinsky, and even Mahler.

Not so good at the standard Germanic repertoire, particularly Beethoven
(IMHO, anyway).

-Owen

Matthew B. Tepper

2007-01-10 03:34:54 UTC

What is it exactly about Ozawa - he's rarely mentioned in polite company
yet the couple of CDs I have of him - Falla Tricorne and the Rite - are
quite superb. Is this just 'his' kind of repertoire in which he excels.
What gives? Andy

Yes.
He's good at colors - impressionism, Stravinsky, and even Mahler.
Not so good at the standard Germanic repertoire, particularly Beethoven
(IMHO, anyway).

Pretty good Beethoven 9th with the New Philharmonic from 1974. It's been
issued on CD a couple of times by Japanese Philips. And I still think very
highly of his Brahms cycle with the Saito Kinen Orchestra. The 1st I heard
him do with them in Edinburgh in 1990 was one of the greatest performances of
*anything* I've heard in my life.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet

2007-01-10 04:23:14 UTC

What is it exactly about Ozawa - he's rarely mentioned in polite company
yet the couple of CDs I have of him - Falla Tricorne and the Rite - are
quite superb. Is this just 'his' kind of repertoire in which he excels.
What gives? Andy

Yes.
He's good at colors - impressionism, Stravinsky, and even Mahler.
Not so good at the standard Germanic repertoire, particularly Beethoven
(IMHO, anyway).

I can imagine his Brahms might be worthwhile.

I drove three hours up to a Tanglewood performance in the 1970's of the
Eroica that had every single ounce of blood drained from it. It was
the positively worst concert experience of my life -- the only time
I've though "I should have stayed home."

-Owen

Matthew B. Tepper

2007-01-10 07:09:33 UTC

Yes.
He's good at colors - impressionism, Stravinsky, and even Mahler.
Not so good at the standard Germanic repertoire, particularly
Beethoven (IMHO, anyway).

Pretty good Beethoven 9th with the New Philharmonic from 1974. It's
been issued on CD a couple of times by Japanese Philips. And I still
think very highly of his Brahms cycle with the Saito Kinen Orchestra.
The 1st I heard him do with them in Edinburgh in 1990 was one of the
greatest performances of *anything* I've heard in my life.

I can imagine his Brahms might be worthwhile.
I drove three hours up to a Tanglewood performance in the 1970's of the
Eroica that had every single ounce of blood drained from it. It was the
positively worst concert experience of my life -- the only time I've
though "I should have stayed home."

Ah, like the time I heard a Mahler 1st -- conducted by Neville Marriner.

William Sommerwerck

2007-01-10 11:20:00 UTC

Post by O
I drove three hours up to a Tanglewood performance in the 1970's of the
Eroica that had every single ounce of blood drained from it. It was
the positively worst concert experience of my life -- the only time
I've though "I should have stayed home."

Is it not true that poor performances drag down a conductor's reputation
much more than good performances elevate it?

2007-01-10 13:46:29 UTC

Is it not true that poor performances drag down a conductor's reputation
much more than good performances elevate it?

Isn't that true of almost everyone -- not just conductors?

-Owen

Allen

2007-01-10 15:14:09 UTC

Is it not true that poor performances drag down a conductor's reputation
much more than good performances elevate it?

Isn't that true of almost everyone -- not just conductors?
-Owen

As a football fan, it certainly applies for me to the Ohio State team
after their miserable performance Monday night.
Allen

j***@aol.com

2007-01-10 18:51:29 UTC

Post by Allen

Is it not true that poor performances drag down a conductor's reputation
much more than good performances elevate it?

Isn't that true of almost everyone -- not just conductors?
-Owen

As a football fan, it certainly applies for me to the Ohio State team
after their miserable performance Monday night.
Allen

Cheer up, Allen (assuming you're a True Buckeye). It was a small,
corrective dose of reality, but only a dose. It showed that OSU isn't
quite the come-from-behind team that you might want (especially without
Ginn), especially against a team with equal talent. It showed that they
were vulnerable. But we already kind of suspected this, because
goodness knows the season showed that Florida was vulnerable and
flawed, and USC was vulnerable and flawed, and LSU and Michigan and
Texas and Auburn and Louisville and all those other contenders along
the way were vulnerable and flawed.

No team, no coach is perfect. OSU laid an egg at a terrible time: they
looked lost, they looked rusty, they even looked a little stupid with
the coverages they chose to run, but you can rest assured they are
every bit as good, strong, fast, and well coached as any 12-1 team has
ever been and they earned every accolade and were every bit as
dangerous as they looked during the actual regular season way back last
year. Remember 2006?

Another day, another game plan, another set of motivations, and I think
they had what it takes to beat anybody in the country. Why they were so
bad on Monday will be the subject of much inquiry by Tressel and his
staff, and right now is the fodder for a lot of idiotic exaggeration
and pseudoanalysis in the media, but the I am convinced, having watched
them off and on this year, that it had nothing to do with innate
ability or overall bad coaching. It had little or nothing to do with
their schedule and little or nothing to do with exposing some giant
weaknesses. You don't get that far unless your coaches are doing a
great job, covering all the bases. Sure there were some unfortunate
choices, which is par for the course in any given game. So Tressel's
luck ran out a little bit, but that's exactly why he's the coach: he
doesn't leave a lot to chance.

Unfortunately, they don't get a second chance.

--Jeff

Bob Harper

2007-01-10 21:23:57 UTC

***@aol.com wrote:
(snip)

Post by j***@aol.com
Cheer up, Allen (assuming you're a True Buckeye). It was a small,
corrective dose of reality, but only a dose. It showed that OSU isn't
quite the come-from-behind team that you might want (especially without
Ginn), especially against a team with equal talent. It showed that they
were vulnerable. But we already kind of suspected this, because
goodness knows the season showed that Florida was vulnerable and
flawed, and USC was vulnerable and flawed, and LSU and Michigan and
Texas and Auburn and Louisville and all those other contenders along
the way were vulnerable and flawed.
No team, no coach is perfect. OSU laid an egg at a terrible time: they
looked lost, they looked rusty, they even looked a little stupid with
the coverages they chose to run, but you can rest assured they are
every bit as good, strong, fast, and well coached as any 12-1 team has
ever been and they earned every accolade and were every bit as
dangerous as they looked during the actual regular season way back last
year. Remember 2006?
Another day, another game plan, another set of motivations, and I think
they had what it takes to beat anybody in the country. Why they were so
bad on Monday will be the subject of much inquiry by Tressel and his
staff, and right now is the fodder for a lot of idiotic exaggeration
and pseudoanalysis in the media, but the I am convinced, having watched
them off and on this year, that it had nothing to do with innate
ability or overall bad coaching. It had little or nothing to do with
their schedule and little or nothing to do with exposing some giant
weaknesses. You don't get that far unless your coaches are doing a
great job, covering all the bases. Sure there were some unfortunate
choices, which is par for the course in any given game. So Tressel's
luck ran out a little bit, but that's exactly why he's the coach: he
doesn't leave a lot to chance.
Unfortunately, they don't get a second chance.
--Jeff

Probably right, but can somebody say 'Boise State' and/or 'playoff'?

Bob Harper

j***@aol.com

2007-01-10 22:10:44 UTC

Post by Bob Harper
(snip)

Probably right, but can somebody say 'Boise State' and/or 'playoff'?
Bob Harper

First though, you have to convince me that they'll play classical music
at the half time. Then instead of Boise State, you have to convince me
why USC-Florida wouldn't be a much more interesting game...what with
the Florida band playing Delius and the USC band countering with
Schoenberg.

--Jeff

sechumlib

2007-01-10 19:47:22 UTC

Post by Allen

Is it not true that poor performances drag down a conductor's reputation
much more than good performances elevate it?

Isn't that true of almost everyone -- not just conductors?
-Owen

As a football fan, it certainly applies for me to the Ohio State team
after their miserable performance Monday night.

Whoopee. Here we go with football, in the LAST place it should be of
any interest at all.

A brutal "sport" engaged in by macho bruisers with very little brain,
and having a fan base with similar properties.

j***@aol.com

2007-01-10 18:33:50 UTC

Is it not true that poor performances drag down a conductor's reputation
much more than good performances elevate it?

Maybe. On the other hand, some conductors have a reputation of
sloppiness (Knappertsbusch) but are venerated anyway for other
qualities and for a few spectacular successes. Barbirolli too has his
disasters documented and yet his reputation seems to overcome them.

I think it depends on what else you offer. Not every Carlos Kleiber
performance is perfect, but people think of him as somebody who *can,*
and usually does, achieve a kind of perfection. So they forgive the bad
moments as the occasional misfiring of a high octane performer.

With Ozawa, there's just not that margin of error. You don't get
passion every time even if the interpretation is wrongheaded or
mistakes are numerous. Nor do you get perfection every time even if the
performances are bloodless, though he's a lot closer to that latter
situation: usually good playing, clean textures, but rarely a big
statement about the music to grasp onto. This may be enigmatic for some
listeners, but not everybody has a problem with it.

--Jeff

Richard Schultz

2007-01-11 06:02:47 UTC

In article <***@i56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, ***@aol.com wrote:

: Barbirolli too has his disasters documented and yet his reputation seems
: to overcome them.

Shhh -- David Hurwitz might hear you.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"

j***@aol.com

2007-01-11 07:04:09 UTC

Post by Richard Schultz
: Barbirolli too has his disasters documented and yet his reputation seems
: to overcome them.
Shhh -- David Hurwitz might hear you.

Too late. You can expect nothing but 10/10s from here on out.

--Jeff

d***@aol.com

2007-01-10 22:04:13 UTC

Post by William Sommerwerck
Is it not true that poor performances drag down a conductor's reputation
much more than good performances elevate it?

It's a statistical matter. The more bad performances you give, the
better the odds that the performances people hear won't do your
reputation any good. In my case, if I'm rabidly attached to some of
your performances, no truckloads of bad performances will damage my
favorable impression of you. Nothing will ever shake the impression of
Barenboim I've formed from hearing a handful of brilliant live
performances with the CSO: it doesn't hurt that the good performances
were in repertory I feel passionate about (Cosi fan tutte, Le visage
nuptial, Adagio tenebroso and other Carter), and I'm prejudiced in his
favor by his championship of Carter. You'll never convince me that a
performance as good as Mehta's of Schoenberg's Variations for Orchestra
was an accident: such a performance of such a piece could never happen
to anybody who wasn't spectacularly musical. I don't think we'd be
missing anything if most of Boulez's late DG recordings of music other
than his own had never been made and even some of those: the DG
recordings don't efface my knowledge of what he's capable of in the
right repertory under the right circumstances.

Of course, we're talking about reputations among the sort of fanatical
lovers of classical music who post here: many in the audience for
classical music cannot and do not sit around making the sort of
discriminations that are made here. You're a subscriber to the CSO,
Solti is the Music Director, he makes virtuosically secure recordings
with a great orchestra in spectacular sound, and you're perfectly
content with them and indeed wildly enthusiastic about them. Many
opera lovers care very deeply about the singers and are entirely
indifferent to the conductor. For many people, "classical music" is
something that exists only on compact discs, and increasingly, a
significant portion of that audience is going to want and expect
nothing but performances like those ghastly and ghastly-ly recorded
Boulez recordings for DG.

-david gable

Allen

2007-01-10 15:09:58 UTC

What is it exactly about Ozawa - he's rarely mentioned in polite company
yet the couple of CDs I have of him - Falla Tricorne and the Rite - are
quite superb. Is this just 'his' kind of repertoire in which he excels.
What gives? Andy

Yes.
He's good at colors - impressionism, Stravinsky, and even Mahler.
Not so good at the standard Germanic repertoire, particularly Beethoven
(IMHO, anyway).

IMO, his recording of the Choral Fantasy with R. Serkin is the best
that has been recorded. I never liked the CF until I heard that one.
Coupled, as I recall, with the Beethoven PC 3 (or is it 4?)

Allen

ansermetniac

2007-01-10 15:09:16 UTC

Post by Allen

What is it exactly about Ozawa - he's rarely mentioned in polite company
yet the couple of CDs I have of him - Falla Tricorne and the Rite - are
quite superb. Is this just 'his' kind of repertoire in which he excels.
What gives? Andy

Yes.
He's good at colors - impressionism, Stravinsky, and even Mahler.
Not so good at the standard Germanic repertoire, particularly Beethoven
(IMHO, anyway).

Did you ever hear Toscanini/Dorfman?

Abbedd

Matthew B. Tepper

2007-01-10 15:34:29 UTC

Post by ansermetniac

Post by Allen
IMO, his recording of the Choral Fantasy with R. Serkin is the best
that has been recorded. I never liked the CF until I heard that one.
Coupled, as I recall, with the Beethoven PC 3 (or is it 4?)

Did you ever hear Toscanini/Dorfman?

I am not impressed with the pianist.

tomdeacon

2007-01-10 17:57:31 UTC

Post by ansermetniac
Did you ever hear Toscanini/Dorfman?

Driven. Deadly. Unmusical.

TD

Matthew B. Tepper

2007-01-10 15:34:28 UTC

Recorded far too late in his career, I'm afraid.

Matthew B. Tepper

2007-01-10 03:34:53 UTC

"Andy Evans" <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:1168392134.249301.62160

What is it exactly about Ozawa - he's rarely mentioned in polite company
yet the couple of CDs I have of him - Falla Tricorne and the Rite - are
quite superb. Is this just 'his' kind of repertoire in which he excels.
What gives?

In his heyday, the 1970s, Ozawa did a lot of superb work, both live (I saw
him many times in San Francisco) and on recordings. But a sort of ennui
seems to have settled in after he had been in Boston for several years, which
does not seem to have been very good for either of them.

Steve de Mena

2007-01-10 06:23:18 UTC

I put him in the Zubin Mehta category. He is
*capable* of great things but I think too often
"coasts" and does not give 100%.

Tchaikovsky Swan Lake, Prokofiev Romeo and Juliet,
Respighi Ancient Airs and Dances...3 favorite CDs
of mine that come to mind are his.

Steve

Eric Grunin

2007-01-10 07:57:13 UTC

I've talked with many musicians about working with Ozawa, saw dozens of
his performances in the late 70s, was in his chorus a few times
(Beethoven, Mahler, Berlioz, Schoenberg), and heard a smattering of his
recordings (including both Eroicas, of course).

Ozawa mentioned years ago that he was brought up in a culture where you
were supposed to keep your emotional expressions tightly controlled,
and that as a conductor he had to stuggle against that all the time.

But on top of that, his feel for shaping time is strange, and
especially not well attuned to the core Germanic repertory -- his early
Eroica (SFO) is one of the worst ever. As has been mentioned, he's much
better in French, Russian, and the 20th century in general.

Lastly, I personally found him less than probing. When faced with
routine problems like where to make the chorus stand up in the last
movement of Mahler 2, or how to deal with the unfinished ending of
Schoenberg's Op. 50c, he seemed to pick the first solution that came to
mind, rather than thinking it through. He's not a risk-taker: he never
tries anything surprising or extreme, which seems to be the consensus
on why his tenure in Boston was both so long-lived and so dull.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

d***@aol.com

2007-01-10 21:40:48 UTC

I agree with all of the people who are saying Ozawa has a better feel
for music in the French orbit than the German, which explains his
penchant for the music of Berlioz and Messiaen. His Berlioz may not be
the last word on the subject, but Ozawa does have a certain feeling for
the music, and his recording of The Damnation of Faust is pretty good.
Ives in his more transcendental vein is un-German in the same way as
the French, depends on a very different sort of dynamism, and Ozawa has
a real feel for Ives, too. I can imagine a more secure performance,
but Ozawa's recording of the wild and sprawling
everything-but-the-kitchen-sink-thrown-in second movement of Ives' 4th
symphony is an exhilarating experience.

-david gable

j***@aol.com

2007-01-11 07:07:31 UTC

Post by d***@aol.com

Maybe he likes the kitchen sink too...he does a good job with Feste
Romana as well.

--Jeff

g***@gmail.com

2017-03-01 00:40:34 UTC

Concerning Holst's "The Planets", the following ranked his recording #2 after Dutoit's recording:

https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/

Terry

2017-03-01 00:58:46 UTC

Post by g***@gmail.com

https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/

A timely response! -- only 10 years late! Keep up the improvement.

Frank Berger

2017-03-01 19:28:40 UTC

Post by Terry

Post by g***@gmail.com

https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/

A timely response! -- only 10 years late! Keep up the improvement.

Misunderestimated.

Ed Presson

2017-03-02 22:02:38 UTC

Post by Frank Berger
Misunderestimated.

Funny.

Actually, I liked a number of early Ozawa recordings for RCA and EMI; they
seemed
"engaged" with the music in a way that faded in the following decades.
Tastes vary.

Ed Presson

2017-03-02 22:10:37 UTC

Post by Ed Presson

Post by Frank Berger
Misunderestimated.

Funny.
Actually, I liked a number of early Ozawa recordings for RCA and EMI; they
seemed
"engaged" with the music in a way that faded in the following decades.
Tastes vary.

It's all in the repertoire. Romantic works with "colors" are his
specialty, and he does very good with them. Mahler, Holst, Ravel, and
Fauré. Beethoven and Brahms are best avoided.

Technically, he was a very good conductor, but the BSO declined during
his watch, for whatever reasons.

I remember driving up to Tanglewood to hear his Eroica, a performance
he drained the blood completely out of. I had to leave at halftime, it
was so bad.

-Owen

operafan

2017-03-02 23:13:17 UTC

Post by Ed Presson

Post by Frank Berger
Misunderestimated.

Funny.
Actually, I liked a number of early Ozawa recordings for RCA and EMI; they
seemed
"engaged" with the music in a way that faded in the following decades.

But he made some later recordings that are well worth your time, such as Stravinsky Oedipus Rex, Mahler 2 and Britten's War Requiem with Saito Kinen.

Terry

2017-03-03 05:04:14 UTC

Post by operafan

Post by Ed Presson

Post by Frank Berger
Misunderestimated.

Funny.
Actually, I liked a number of early Ozawa recordings for RCA and EMI; they
seemed
"engaged" with the music in a way that faded in the following decades.

But he made some later recordings that are well worth your time, such as Stravinsky Oedipus Rex, Mahler 2 and Britten's War Requiem with Saito Kinen.

...and his recording of Strauss' "Elektra" is quite superb.

Paul Goodman

2017-03-04 04:35:24 UTC

Post by Frank Berger
Misunderestimated.

Funny.
Actually, I liked a number of early Ozawa recordings for RCA and EMI; they
seemed
"engaged" with the music in a way that faded in the following decades.

But he made some later recordings that are well worth your time, such
as Stravinsky Oedipus Rex, Mahler 2 and Britten's War Requiem with
Saito Kinen.

...and his recording of Strauss' "Elektra" is quite superb.

I agree with your assessment of Electra. I love that recording.

--
Paul Goodman

Andy Evans

2017-03-04 09:52:03 UTC

I'm surprised to see I started this thread in 2007!!

My enduring Ozawa recording is the Rite of Spring with the Chicago SO sounding like the Basie band in the final pages. It swings like hell!

He understood - in this work - that for a band to swing the bass has to be fractionally ahead of the beat so it pushes the front line forwards.

frankwm

2017-03-01 12:25:11 UTC

Post by g***@gmail.com
https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

See if This comment stays up....

TinEar
March 1, 2017 / 10:45 pm

As you took my blog pic of Boult’s 1954 Nixa without attribution, then I guess you also downloaded those 2013 files…

Tony

2017-03-01 12:49:16 UTC

frankwm

2017-03-01 13:17:09 UTC

No...................................................................................

Not an Invitation directed towards any particular RMCR Malcontent: however, the internet is awash with Petty Thieves helping themselves to others efforts..

Tony

2017-03-01 17:57:06 UTC

Post by frankwm
Not an Invitation directed towards any particular RMCR Malcontent: however, the internet is awash with Petty Thieves helping themselves to others efforts..

In a public discussion an invitation isn't required. I answered a question -- IMO Ozawa receives considerable acclaim around the world. What's your contribution aside from quoting someone who doesn't even post here?

frankwm

2017-03-01 19:05:19 UTC

It happens not to be the first time g7 has linked to Peters Planets...and had done re: Boult's '54 (which isn't on CD).

Penguin SRG 1982 quickly dismissed this one: "Mercury is curiously lacking in sparkle and Mars is unmenacing. Altogether this is disappointingly undercharacterised"....but not according to Peter..and you may be encouraged to rush out and buy it..!

"PS: After writing this review I listened to the CD six times in a row. Yes, six. I couldn’t help myself". Yep..

FYI g7 does post here: in a forlorn, misguided, attempt to stimulate some brain-cell activity from "you lot"....

gggg gggg

2022-04-12 07:03:53 UTC

(Recent Y. upload):

Seiji Ozawa's Curious Reputation--Preview to his 10 Best Recordings Video on ClassicsToday.com

gggg gggg

2022-07-03 08:24:14 UTC