A Solid Win for Osaka!

Very strong player!

A few too many double faults, but that happens!

Naomi is the favorite to win, of course!

:)

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Gracchus

2021-02-18 04:53:47 UTC

Post by Garvin Yee
Very strong player!
A few too many double faults, but that happens!
Naomi is the favorite to win, of course!
:)

She stormed back beautifully after the weak service game. Incredible angles she came up with on both sides to serve it out.

As for Serena, she had three burdens on her movement today: advancing age, too much weight, and Chris Evert's head up her ass. Her biggest problem though was an opponent who doesn't rattle. Well done by the mouse!

PeteWasLucky

2021-02-18 07:11:32 UTC

On Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 8:39:33 PM UTC-8, Garvin Yee wrote:> Very strong player! > > A few too many double faults, but that happens! > > Naomi is the favorite to win, of course! > > :) She stormed back beautifully after the weak service game. Incredible angles she came up with on both sides to serve it out. As for Serena, she had three burdens on her movement today: advancing age, too much weight, and Chris Evert's head up her ass. Her biggest problem though was an opponent who doesn't rattle. Well done by the mouse!

Chris Evert was beyond disgusting today "the matches are on Serena
racquet, Serena is top 1, 2 or 3, and when Osaka got broken in
the second set, she was too happy screaming that she predicted
Osaka will choke and Serena will do great, then the match became
on Osaka racquet, then... it never ended".

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Whisper

2021-02-18 07:14:43 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

jlia...@gmail.com

2021-02-18 07:38:09 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

No, her best was around 2002-2003, her peak is definitely better than Henin. Tennis aesthetic aside, Serena had far better result than Henin and has been able to recover from form slumps then had less dominant years for the last 10 years. I would take Serena's peak over Henin any time on a hard court and grass court , clay court may be the only exception.

The Iceberg

2021-02-18 10:41:04 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

yes cos you know Henin thrashed Serena every time on clay, Henin was so talented, nearly as much as Hingis.

Max's Hoemom

2021-02-18 16:18:51 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

yes cos you know Henin thrashed Serena every time on clay, Henin was so talented, nearly as much as Hingis.

Henin played well in 2007. I think she is overrated in rst courtesy Whisper. She is nowhere near Graf's league. And Hingis of 1997 was way better than any of the cunts that followed her.

Gracchus

2021-02-18 16:43:01 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

yes cos you know Henin thrashed Serena every time on clay, Henin was so talented, nearly as much as Hingis.

Henin played well in 2007. I think she is overrated in rst courtesy Whisper. She is nowhere near Graf's league. And Hingis of 1997 was way better than any of the cunts that followed her.

Not overrated. She wasn't around that long, so of course if you look at title counts she can't compare to players who were active for 20 years or so. But when you look at her stats versus most players, they are highly respectable. Cherry-picking particular years for comparison is pointless.

Max's Hoemom

2021-02-18 17:38:43 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

yes cos you know Henin thrashed Serena every time on clay, Henin was so talented, nearly as much as Hingis.

Henin played well in 2007. I think she is overrated in rst courtesy Whisper. She is nowhere near Graf's league. And Hingis of 1997 was way better than any of the cunts that followed her.

Not overrated.

I think she was better than Serena, Venus etc. But she was simply not Graf level like Whisper thinks.

Post by Gracchus
She wasn't around that long, so of course if you look at title counts she can't compare to players who were active for 20 years or so. But when you look at her stats versus most players, they are highly respectable. >Cherry-picking particular years for comparison is pointless.

Too bad she fell off the radar since 2008. If she was playing top level after 2007, Serena's slam count would have been drastically different.

Gracchus

2021-02-18 17:55:17 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

yes cos you know Henin thrashed Serena every time on clay, Henin was so talented, nearly as much as Hingis.

Henin played well in 2007. I think she is overrated in rst courtesy Whisper. She is nowhere near Graf's league. And Hingis of 1997 was way better than any of the cunts that followed her.

Not overrated.

I think she was better than Serena, Venus etc. But she was simply not Graf level like Whisper thinks.

No, calling her Graf-level is over-the-top. She had some shortcomings. Her record vs. Venus wasn't good. And falling short against the choker Mauresmo in two slam finals is something I'll never understand. But her overall results in that short career were outstanding and her style was a pleasure to watch. I put her head-and-shoulders over Sharapova types.

Too bad she fell off the radar since 2008. If she was playing top level after 2007, Serena's slam count would have been drastically different.

The early retirement was stupid and when she tried to come back, chronic injuries did her in. With a style so reliant on speed, no way she could challenge for big titles again, so she sensibly called it quits.

Max's Hoemom

2021-02-18 18:16:24 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

yes cos you know Henin thrashed Serena every time on clay, Henin was so talented, nearly as much as Hingis.

Henin played well in 2007. I think she is overrated in rst courtesy Whisper. She is nowhere near Graf's league. And Hingis of 1997 was way better than any of the cunts that followed her.

Not overrated.

I think she was better than Serena, Venus etc. But she was simply not Graf level like Whisper thinks.

Yes me too. I think Sharapova did well in spite of never really improving her game. The only thing she improved after 2004 was her return of serve (and may be her movement too) and that helped her win 2 FOs. Henin was a much more complete player even though it was Sharapova who won all 4.

Too bad she fell off the radar since 2008. If she was playing top level after 2007, Serena's slam count would have been drastically different.

The early retirement was stupid

Yes, did it have anything to do with break up with her boyfriend/divorce with husband? I can't remember.

Post by Gracchus
and when she tried to come back, chronic injuries did her in. With a style so reliant on speed, no way she could challenge for big titles again, so she sensibly called it quits.

Gracchus

2021-02-18 18:52:57 UTC

Post by Max's Hoemom
Too bad she fell off the radar since 2008. If she was playing top level after 2007, Serena's slam count would have been drastically different.

The early retirement was stupid

Yes, did it have anything to do with break up with her boyfriend/divorce with husband? I can't remember.

I'm not sure which event came first. Everything was supposed to be so perfect with her husband and she even hyphenated her name (usually a bad idea). Then suddenly she removed him from her web site and she was back to just Henin again. She didn't give a good reason for retirement, basically just said she was tired of life being tennis and resolved to do it. This made her look a bit foolish when she emerged from "retirement" a two years later. I don't know why athletes, movie stars etc. do this to themselves. Just take an extended hiatus leaving open options of returning or retiring.

Whisper

2021-02-19 14:45:36 UTC

Post by Max's Hoemom
Too bad she fell off the radar since 2008. If she was playing top level after 2007, Serena's slam count would have been drastically different.

The early retirement was stupid

Yes, did it have anything to do with break up with her boyfriend/divorce with husband? I can't remember.

Well she won a lot of money so had a lot of options in life. Henin
played a style that was reliant on being pumped to the max. If she lost
enthusiasm for the game it reflected badly in her performance on court.

She said she was inspired by Roger's career slam at 2009 FO & decided to
come back to complete her own career slam. She did amazingly well
hopping off the couch & winning Sydney 2010 and pushing Serena to 3 sets
in AO final. After that her performances fell away. I think she lost
64 75 to Clijsters at Wimbledon which convinced her to retire for good.
If you can't beat Kim at Wimbledon it's time to give it away.

bob

2021-02-22 19:27:55 UTC

On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 09:55:17 -0800 (PST), Gracchus

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

yes cos you know Henin thrashed Serena every time on clay, Henin was so talented, nearly as much as Hingis.

Henin played well in 2007. I think she is overrated in rst courtesy Whisper. She is nowhere near Graf's league. And Hingis of 1997 was way better than any of the cunts that followed her.

Not overrated.

I think she was better than Serena, Venus etc. But she was simply not Graf level like Whisper thinks.

Too bad she fell off the radar since 2008. If she was playing top level after 2007, Serena's slam count would have been drastically different.

i think she also had a style that was predicated on a heavy ball, and
coming from such a small frame, it put too much pressure on her body.
just hitting all out every stroke was too much. IMO

bob

Garvin Yee

2021-02-18 22:21:36 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

yes cos you know Henin thrashed Serena every time on clay, Henin was so talented, nearly as much as Hingis.

Henin played well in 2007. I think she is overrated in rst courtesy Whisper. She is nowhere near Graf's league. And Hingis of 1997 was way better than any of the cunts that followed her.

Not overrated.

I think she was better than Serena, Venus etc. But she was simply not Graf level like Whisper thinks.

Too bad she fell off the radar since 2008. If she was playing top level after 2007, Serena's slam count would have been drastically different.

https://www.wtatennis.com/head-to-head/230234/80350

She's about the same age as Serena, and with a record
of 6-8 against her (which is phenomenal!), it's obvious
Serena's Slam count would have been lower if Henin had
stayed in the game longer.

But perhaps she wouldn't have had Serena's extreme longevity?

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Whisper

2021-02-19 14:47:37 UTC

On Thursday, February 18, 2021 at 4:41:05 AM UTC-6,

On Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 8:39:33 PM UTC-8, Garvin Yee
wrote:> Very strong player! > > A few too many double faults,
but that happens! > > Naomi is the favorite to win, of course!

:) She stormed back beautifully after the weak service

game. Incredible angles she came up with on both sides to serve
it out. As for Serena, she had three burdens on her movement
today: advancing age, too much weight, and Chris Evert's head
up her ass. Her biggest problem though was an opponent who
doesn't rattle. Well done by the mouse!

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

No, her best was around 2002-2003, her peak is definitely better
than Henin. Tennis aesthetic aside, Serena had far better result
than Henin and has been able to recover from form slumps then had
less dominant years for the last 10 years. I would take Serena's
peak over Henin any time on a hard court and grass court , clay
court may be the only exception.

yes cos you know Henin thrashed Serena every time on clay, Henin
was so talented, nearly as much as Hingis.

Henin played well in 2007. I think she is overrated in rst courtesy
Whisper. She is nowhere near Graf's league. And Hingis of 1997 was
way better than any of the cunts that followed her.

Not overrated.

I think she was better than Serena, Venus etc. But she was simply not
Graf level like Whisper thinks.

Post by Gracchus
She wasn't around that long, so of course if you look at title counts
she can't compare to players who were active for 20 years or so. But
when you look at her stats versus most players, they are highly
respectable. >Cherry-picking particular years for comparison is
pointless.

Too bad she fell off the radar since 2008. If she was playing top
level after 2007, Serena's slam count would have been drastically
different.

    https://www.wtatennis.com/head-to-head/230234/80350
    She's about the same age as Serena, and with a record
of 6-8 against her (which is phenomenal!), it's obvious
Serena's Slam count would have been lower if Henin had
stayed in the game longer.
    But perhaps she wouldn't have had Serena's extreme longevity?

Serena's ego has a gravitational field of it's own. She's only hanging
around to beat Margaret.

Patrick Kehoe

2021-02-21 00:10:58 UTC

Post by Garvin Yee

On Thursday, February 18, 2021 at 4:41:05 AM UTC-6,

On Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 8:39:33 PM UTC-8, Garvin Yee
wrote:> Very strong player! > > A few too many double faults,
but that happens! > > Naomi is the favorite to win, of course!

:) She stormed back beautifully after the weak service

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

No, her best was around 2002-2003, her peak is definitely better
than Henin. Tennis aesthetic aside, Serena had far better result
than Henin and has been able to recover from form slumps then had
less dominant years for the last 10 years. I would take Serena's
peak over Henin any time on a hard court and grass court , clay
court may be the only exception.

yes cos you know Henin thrashed Serena every time on clay, Henin
was so talented, nearly as much as Hingis.

Henin played well in 2007. I think she is overrated in rst courtesy
Whisper. She is nowhere near Graf's league. And Hingis of 1997 was
way better than any of the cunts that followed her.

Not overrated.

I think she was better than Serena, Venus etc. But she was simply not
Graf level like Whisper thinks.

Post by Gracchus
She wasn't around that long, so of course if you look at title counts
she can't compare to players who were active for 20 years or so. But
when you look at her stats versus most players, they are highly
respectable. >Cherry-picking particular years for comparison is
pointless.

Too bad she fell off the radar since 2008. If she was playing top
level after 2007, Serena's slam count would have been drastically
different.

https://www.wtatennis.com/head-to-head/230234/80350
She's about the same age as Serena, and with a record
of 6-8 against her (which is phenomenal!), it's obvious
Serena's Slam count would have been lower if Henin had
stayed in the game longer.
But perhaps she wouldn't have had Serena's extreme longevity?

Serena's ego has a gravitational field of it's own. She's only hanging
around to beat Margaret.

Well, she is at 23... so yes... of course she's still at it...

Whisper

2021-02-21 11:02:55 UTC

Post by Patrick Kehoe

Serena's ego has a gravitational field of it's own. She's only hanging
around to beat Margaret.

Well, she is at 23... so yes... of course she's still at it...

She won't match it. She fell short of calendar slam, 2015 USO loss was
biggest of her career, & now Margaret Court will remain on top after
Serena retires. These are 2 massive blows to Serena's ago. She really
wanted a calendar slam to match Graf, Court & Connolly, & of course 25
slams. She really has no big records - eg not best ever at any of the
slams. Oh well that's life.

*skriptis

2021-02-21 11:07:49 UTC

On 21/02/2021 11:10 am, Patrick Kehoe wrote:> On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 6:47:42 AM UTC-8, Whisper wrote:>>>>>>>> Serena's ego has a gravitational field of it's own. She's only hanging>> around to beat Margaret.> > Well, she is at 23... so yes... of course she's still at it...> She won't match it. She fell short of calendar slam, 2015 USO loss was biggest of her career, & now Margaret Court will remain on top after Serena retires. These are 2 massive blows to Serena's ago. She really wanted a calendar slam to match Graf, Court & Connolly, & of course 25 slams. She really has no big records - eg not best ever at any of the slams. Oh well that's life.

Most slams - Court (24)
Most min titles (best CGS) - Graf (4)
CYGS: Connolly/Court/Graf

And Court, Evert, Navratilova and Mallory as slam queens.

But Serena tops crude 7543...

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Whisper

2021-02-21 11:15:46 UTC

Most slams - Court (24)
Most min titles (best CGS) - Graf (4)
CYGS: Connolly/Court/Graf
And Court, Evert, Navratilova and Mallory as slam queens.
But Serena tops crude 7543...

Yes, & she will always be mentioned in goat talks - her longevity is
pretty big too.

But when you actually talk records, calendar slams etc her name won't
come up. That will kill her inside.

jlia...@gmail.com

2021-02-21 11:58:11 UTC

Post by Patrick Kehoe

Serena's ego has a gravitational field of it's own. She's only hanging
around to beat Margaret.

Well, she is at 23... so yes... of course she's still at it...

I thought she was also the favorite for two Wimbledon, she lost both rather convincingly. She lost the last four grand slam finals rather easily and weigh of expectation seemed to be too much for her. I think again your argument does not make much of sense. We look at Serena that she has a series of record that would put her at least 2nd or equal 2nd best at various slams. She won more AO and USO titles than Graf and her record at Wimbledon is better than Graf, ( you may argue she played more Wimbledon than Graf but she was in more finals). She again lead Court with more titles at Wimbledon and USO. SWilliams is not the best at any slams but she is equal or better than both Court and Graf at 3 out of 4 grand slams. In summary when you say only the best record count but 2nd best does not count is purely rubbish.

*skriptis

2021-02-21 12:48:24 UTC

On Sunday, February 21, 2021 at 10:03:03 PM UTC+11, Whisper wrote:> On 21/02/2021 11:10 am, Patrick Kehoe wrote: > > On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 6:47:42 AM UTC-8, Whisper wrote: > >>> > >>> > >> Serena's ego has a gravitational field of it's own. She's only hanging > >> around to beat Margaret. > > > > Well, she is at 23... so yes... of course she's still at it... > >> She won't match it. She fell short of calendar slam, 2015 USO loss was > biggest of her career, & now Margaret Court will remain on top after > Serena retires. These are 2 massive blows to Serena's ago. She really > wanted a calendar slam to match Graf, Court & Connolly, & of course 25 > slams. She really has no big records - eg not best ever at any of the > slams. Oh well that's life.I thought she was also the favorite for two Wimbledon, she lost both rather convincingly. She lost the last four grand slam finals rather easily and weigh of expectation seemed to be too much for her. I think again your argument does not make much of sense. We look at Serena that she has a series of record that would put her at least 2nd or equal 2nd best at various slams. She won more AO and USO titles than Graf and her record at Wimbledon is better than Graf, ( you may argue she played more Wimbledon than Graf but she was in more finals). She again lead Court with more titles at Wimbledon and USO. SWilliams is not the best at any slams but she is equal or better than both Court and Graf at 3 out of 4 grand slams. In summary when you say only the best record count but 2nd best does not count is purely rubbish.

I don't feel Whisper was denigrating Serena.
In a way it felt as he was saying how unlucky she is not to have secured at least one of the 7 top all-time achievements related to slams?

I mean what you're saying, 7543 already said. Serena tops 7543.

But the 7 big records, total slam count, best mix, CYGS and 4 individual records. None.

Strangely she has neither and that puts her at #2 in all conversations. Second best Wimbledon player, second most slams, second best AO etc..

That's got to be annoying for her.

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Whisper

2021-02-21 12:57:44 UTC

I don't feel Whisper was denigrating Serena.
In a way it felt as he was saying how unlucky she is not to have secured at least one of the 7 top all-time achievements related to slams?
I mean what you're saying, 7543 already said. Serena tops 7543.
But the 7 big records, total slam count, best mix, CYGS and 4 individual records. None.
Strangely she has neither and that puts her at #2 in all conversations. Second best Wimbledon player, second most slams, second best AO etc..
That's got to be annoying for her.

Yes, eating her alive. You can see the anger on her face last few yrs.
Started big time when she lost 2015 USO calendar slam bid - didn't
talk to

*skriptis

2021-02-21 13:23:01 UTC

I feel she squandered her best years.

As much as she made up for it later, she shouldn't have gone AWOL many times in early 2000s. Skipping slams, designing clothes and other stuff.

But oh well...if she had pushed herself at the time, maybe she would have burnt out earlier, just like many others?

It is what it is.

I'm not really a fan of her, but watching her in her youth is/was more pleasurable that watching her now.

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jlia...@gmail.com

2021-02-21 13:23:03 UTC

I don't feel Whisper was denigrating Serena.
In a way it felt as he was saying how unlucky she is not to have secured at least one of the 7 top all-time achievements related to slams?
I mean what you're saying, 7543 already said. Serena tops 7543.
But the 7 big records, total slam count, best mix, CYGS and 4 individual records. None.
Strangely she has neither and that puts her at #2 in all conversations. Second best Wimbledon player, second most slams, second best AO etc..
That's got to be annoying for her.
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Take Mcourt as an example, she has inferior record in 3 out of 4 individual slams compare to the other 2, strangely Williams is second best in 3 slams, court is 3rd best in 2 of the slam . Court's slam count has 11 AO, 5 USO, 5 W and 3 FO, Williams 7 AO, 7 W, 3 FO and 6 USO. I can not see how William's mix was worse than Courts. Graf's mix is 7 W, 6 FO, 5 AO and 4 USO. Court has 1 extra slam but would you say that her extra 4 AO is better than Williams 2 extra Wimbledon and 1 extra USO.

*skriptis

2021-02-21 13:38:20 UTC

You're arguing for 7543 and we all agree. That's why Serena is always in the goat debate.

But what's easier when you deal with non-tennis fans and people?

Pinpoiting to Court's 24 all-time record or Navratilova's 9 Wimbledons or explaning the intricate details about 7543 to them?

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Whisper

2021-02-21 13:45:54 UTC

Post by *skriptis
You're arguing for 7543 and we all agree. That's why Serena is always in the goat debate.
But what's easier when you deal with non-tennis fans and people?
Pinpoiting to Court's 24 all-time record or Navratilova's 9 Wimbledons or explaning the intricate details about 7543 to them?

Serena really wanted the 25 slams. That means her name would always
come 1st in arguably

Whisper

2021-02-21 13:39:08 UTC

Post by ***@gmail.com
Take Mcourt as an example, she has inferior record in 3 out of 4 individual slams compare to the other 2, strangely Williams is second best in 3 slams, court is 3rd best in 2 of the slam . Court's slam count has 11 AO, 5 USO, 5 W and 3 FO, Williams 7 AO, 7 W, 3 FO and 6 USO. I can not see how William's mix was worse than Courts. Graf's mix is 7 W, 6 FO, 5 AO and 4 USO. Court has 1 extra slam but would you say that her extra 4 AO is better than Williams 2 extra Wimbledon and 1 extra USO.

Serena is not 2nd best at Wimbledon as Navratilova & Moody won 9 & 8

Serena is not 2nd best at USO as Mallory & Moody won 8 & 7

So Serena is not 2nd best in 3 slams, she is only 2nd best at AO, a long
way behind Court.

Graf has 5 USO not 4.

jlia...@gmail.com

2021-02-21 13:46:23 UTC

Serena is not 2nd best at Wimbledon as Navratilova & Moody won 9 & 8

We are talking about open era and also point stand that her record at W is equal to Graf and better than Court.

Post by Whisper
Serena is not 2nd best at USO as Mallory & Moody won 8 & 7

Again she won 6 USO which is better than both Graf and Court, Mallory and Moody sure but they are not in open era.

Post by Whisper
So Serena is not 2nd best in 3 slams, she is only 2nd best at AO, a long
way behind Court.

But would court 4 extra AO better than 2 Wimbledon and 1 USO?

Post by Whisper
Graf has 5 USO not 4.

Still Graf is behind in USO and with slightly worse record at Wimbledon.

Whisper

2021-02-21 13:48:21 UTC

Serena is not 2nd best at Wimbledon as Navratilova & Moody won 9 & 8

We are talking about open era and also point stand that her record at W is equal to Graf and better than Court.

Post by Whisper
Serena is not 2nd best at USO as Mallory & Moody won 8 & 7

Again she won 6 USO which is better than both Graf and Court, Mallory and Moody sure but they are not in open era.

There was no pro era in women's tennis so that argument doesn't apply.
Serena is 2nd only at AO.

jlia...@gmail.com

2021-02-21 13:58:34 UTC

Serena is not 2nd best at Wimbledon as Navratilova & Moody won 9 & 8

We are talking about open era and also point stand that her record at W is equal to Graf and better than Court.

Post by Whisper
Serena is not 2nd best at USO as Mallory & Moody won 8 & 7

Again she won 6 USO which is better than both Graf and Court, Mallory and Moody sure but they are not in open era.

There was no pro era in women's tennis so that argument doesn't apply.
Serena is 2nd only at AO.

But is 4 AO better than 2 W and 1 USO?

jlia...@gmail.com

2021-02-21 14:09:21 UTC

Serena is not 2nd best at Wimbledon as Navratilova & Moody won 9 & 8

We are talking about open era and also point stand that her record at W is equal to Graf and better than Court.

Post by Whisper
Serena is not 2nd best at USO as Mallory & Moody won 8 & 7

Again she won 6 USO which is better than both Graf and Court, Mallory and Moody sure but they are not in open era.

There was no pro era in women's tennis so that argument doesn't apply.
Serena is 2nd only at AO.

But is 4 AO better than 2 W and 1 USO?

Not relevant to this discussion. Serena has no slam records that
commentators will mention in the future.

Of courses it is relevant. You just said the blue chip slam is preferred over non BC slam. We are comparing record of two players who are in the conversation of being the greatest. So my question is if 4 non blue chip slam like AO is preferred over 3 blue chip slams like 2 W and 1 USO. Your argument is it is irrelevant because you are falling on your own contradictions.

Whisper

2021-02-21 14:15:53 UTC

Serena is not 2nd best at Wimbledon as Navratilova & Moody won 9 & 8

We are talking about open era and also point stand that her record at W is equal to Graf and better than Court.

Post by Whisper
Serena is not 2nd best at USO as Mallory & Moody won 8 & 7

Again she won 6 USO which is better than both Graf and Court, Mallory and Moody sure but they are not in open era.

There was no pro era in women's tennis so that argument doesn't apply.
Serena is 2nd only at AO.

But is 4 AO better than 2 W and 1 USO?

Not relevant to this discussion. Serena has no slam records that
commentators will mention in the future.

You're missing the whole point as usual. When tv commentators discuss
future champs they will be saying things like 'trying to beat Court's 24
record, Navratilova's 8 Wimbledons, Evert 7 FO etc

jlia...@gmail.com

2021-02-21 14:46:33 UTC

Serena is not 2nd best at Wimbledon as Navratilova & Moody won 9 & 8

We are talking about open era and also point stand that her record at W is equal to Graf and better than Court.

Post by Whisper
Serena is not 2nd best at USO as Mallory & Moody won 8 & 7

Again she won 6 USO which is better than both Graf and Court, Mallory and Moody sure but they are not in open era.

There was no pro era in women's tennis so that argument doesn't apply.
Serena is 2nd only at AO.

But is 4 AO better than 2 W and 1 USO?

Not relevant to this discussion. Serena has no slam records that
commentators will mention in the future.

You're missing the whole point as usual. When tv commentators discuss
future champs they will be saying things like 'trying to beat Court's 24
record, Navratilova's 8 Wimbledons, Evert 7 FO etc

I can see the point that place both Graf and Williams over court as the GOAT. For me that 1 extra slam like AO is not exactly putting her mix ahead of William's mix, when considering Court has 4 extra AO compare to 2 extra W and 1 extra USO, 2 best slam and 1 second best slam vs 4 fourth best slam.

Whisper

2021-02-21 21:22:06 UTC

You're missing the whole point as usual. When tv commentators discuss
future champs they will be saying things like 'trying to beat Court's 24
record, Navratilova's 8 Wimbledons, Evert 7 FO etc

Many can see the point of Maureen Connolly as goat. Her career ended
age 19 while on a 9 slam winning streak. She won calendar slam, and had
won her last 3 Wimbledons in row, last 3 USO in a row & last 2 FO in a
row. It's mind boggling she did all that while still a teenager.

But still no commentators say players are chasing her records, because
she doesn't hold the records. Same with Serena - holds no records so
won't be mentioned much.

It's a fact Court won 24 slams and that is the record. Yes you may have
certain feelings about it - that's fine we can all have feelings - but
it doesn't change the fact 24 is the record.

jlia...@gmail.com

2021-02-22 12:34:33 UTC

You're missing the whole point as usual. When tv commentators discuss
future champs they will be saying things like 'trying to beat Court's 24
record, Navratilova's 8 Wimbledons, Evert 7 FO etc

Many can see the point of Maureen Connolly as goat. Her career ended
age 19 while on a 9 slam winning streak. She won calendar slam, and had
won her last 3 Wimbledons in row, last 3 USO in a row & last 2 FO in a
row. It's mind boggling she did all that while still a teenager.
But still no commentators say players are chasing her records, because
she doesn't hold the records. Same with Serena - holds no records so
won't be mentioned much.
It's a fact Court won 24 slams and that is the record. Yes you may have
certain feelings about it - that's fine we can all have feelings - but
it doesn't change the fact 24 is the record.

There is a clear differentiation of tennis record between open era and pre-open era. Take Roy Emerson as an example, the guy won 12 grand slams but nobody consider his 12 slams put him above players with fewer slam wins in the open era. Nobody rank Emerson higher than Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Becker or Edberg despite he won 6 more slam than Edberg and Becker. That is a fact.

Whisper

2021-02-22 13:25:40 UTC

You're missing the whole point as usual. When tv commentators discuss
future champs they will be saying things like 'trying to beat Court's 24
record, Navratilova's 8 Wimbledons, Evert 7 FO etc

Many can see the point of Maureen Connolly as goat. Her career ended
age 19 while on a 9 slam winning streak. She won calendar slam, and had
won her last 3 Wimbledons in row, last 3 USO in a row & last 2 FO in a
row. It's mind boggling she did all that while still a teenager.
But still no commentators say players are chasing her records, because
she doesn't hold the records. Same with Serena - holds no records so
won't be mentioned much.
It's a fact Court won 24 slams and that is the record. Yes you may have
certain feelings about it - that's fine we can all have feelings - but
it doesn't change the fact 24 is the record.

Everyone ranks Emerson above those guys in terms of 'slams won'.
Sampras was trying to break Emerson record not Wilander.

The Iceberg

2021-02-22 14:33:51 UTC

You're missing the whole point as usual. When tv commentators discuss
future champs they will be saying things like 'trying to beat Court's 24
record, Navratilova's 8 Wimbledons, Evert 7 FO etc

Many can see the point of Maureen Connolly as goat. Her career ended
age 19 while on a 9 slam winning streak. She won calendar slam, and had
won her last 3 Wimbledons in row, last 3 USO in a row & last 2 FO in a
row. It's mind boggling she did all that while still a teenager.
But still no commentators say players are chasing her records, because
she doesn't hold the records. Same with Serena - holds no records so
won't be mentioned much.
It's a fact Court won 24 slams and that is the record. Yes you may have
certain feelings about it - that's fine we can all have feelings - but
it doesn't change the fact 24 is the record.

Everyone ranks Emerson above those guys in terms of 'slams won'.
Sampras was trying to break Emerson record not Wilander.

jliang is being dishonest as usual, he himself used Emmerson's record to deny that Sampras was GOAT for years.

jlia...@gmail.com

2021-02-23 08:43:47 UTC

You're missing the whole point as usual. When tv commentators discuss
future champs they will be saying things like 'trying to beat Court's 24
record, Navratilova's 8 Wimbledons, Evert 7 FO etc

Many can see the point of Maureen Connolly as goat. Her career ended
age 19 while on a 9 slam winning streak. She won calendar slam, and had
won her last 3 Wimbledons in row, last 3 USO in a row & last 2 FO in a
row. It's mind boggling she did all that while still a teenager.
But still no commentators say players are chasing her records, because
she doesn't hold the records. Same with Serena - holds no records so
won't be mentioned much.
It's a fact Court won 24 slams and that is the record. Yes you may have
certain feelings about it - that's fine we can all have feelings - but
it doesn't change the fact 24 is the record.

Everyone ranks Emerson above those guys in terms of 'slams won'.
Sampras was trying to break Emerson record not Wilander.

Emerson is ranked considerably lower in term of Greatness, his 12 grand slam does not make him equally great as those with 8,7 or 6 slams in the open era. Emerson achieved his greatness winning 12 slams with 2nd class competition when the top competitors during his era were into the pro tennis.

Whisper

2021-02-23 10:30:07 UTC

Post by Whisper
Everyone ranks Emerson above those guys in terms of 'slams won'.
Sampras was trying to break Emerson record not Wilander.

Emerson is ranked considerably lower in term of Greatness, his 12 grand slam does not make him equally great as those with 8,7 or 6 slams in the open era. Emerson achieved his greatness winning 12 slams with 2nd class competition when the top >competitors during his era were into the pro tennis.

You call it 2nd class players, but when I look at Federer's opposition
(aside from Nadal & Djokovic) it looks lame.

Emerson played Laver in 5 slam finals, winning 2 of them. I don't
consider Laver a 2nd class player.

He also beat Arthur Ashe in 2 slam finals, & Fred Stolle in 5 finals.
Stolle won FO & USO & finalist in all 4 slams. Emerson also beat Tony
Roche in FO final.

I don't know that Wilander's slam wins were more impressive, given he
played guys like Noah, Curren, Cash and Leconte in slam finals.

Whisper

2021-02-21 12:54:54 UTC

When tennis commentators discuss records on TV, or articles in media,
they say 'Who won most xxx?', who won calendar slams? etc

Serena's name will never be mentioned because Court has AO record, Evert
FO record, Navratilova Wimbledon record & Mallory USO record. Court
has slam record, & she along with Graf & Connolly won calendar slam.
There's no need to mention Serena in these discussions.

Serena knows this, that's why she's still out there.

*skriptis

2021-02-21 13:34:53 UTC

Also Graf best CGS...?

4 - Graf
3 - Court, Serena
2 - Navratilova, Evert
1 - Connolly, Hart, Fry, King, Sharapova

Serena legit records are:

â¢ Most HC slams (13, a real, great record)
â¢ consecutive weeks at #1 (186, shared with Graf, lol)

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Whisper

2021-02-21 13:42:45 UTC

Post by *skriptis
Also Graf best CGS...?
4 - Graf
3 - Court, Serena
2 - Navratilova, Evert
1 - Connolly, Hart, Fry, King, Sharapova
• Most HC slams (13, a real, great record)
• consecutive weeks at #1 (186, shared with Graf, lol)

HC slams didn't exist in earlier eras so that 13 would be a lot higher
if there were 2 HC slams every yr - most of the time there were none.

Consecutive No.1 weeks is a record nobody really remembers or discusse

bob

2021-02-22 19:28:33 UTC

Post by Garvin Yee

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

yes cos you know Henin thrashed Serena every time on clay, Henin was so talented, nearly as much as Hingis.

Henin played well in 2007. I think she is overrated in rst courtesy Whisper. She is nowhere near Graf's league. And Hingis of 1997 was way better than any of the cunts that followed her.

Not overrated.

I think she was better than Serena, Venus etc. But she was simply not Graf level like Whisper thinks.

Too bad she fell off the radar since 2008. If she was playing top level after 2007, Serena's slam count would have been drastically different.

https://www.wtatennis.com/head-to-head/230234/80350
She's about the same age as Serena, and with a record
of 6-8 against her (which is phenomenal!), it's obvious
Serena's Slam count would have been lower if Henin had
stayed in the game longer.

"stayed in the game longer AT THAT LEVEL."

no guarantee anyone could do that, or close.

Post by Garvin Yee
But perhaps she wouldn't have had Serena's extreme longevity?

bob

StephenJ

2021-02-21 14:11:58 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

No, her best was around 2002-2003, her peak is definitely better than Henin. Tennis aesthetic aside, Serena had far better result than Henin >and has been able to recover from form slumps then had less dominant years for the last 10 years. I would take Serena's peak over Henin any > time on a hard court and grass court , clay court may be the only exception.

Serena is clearly the Open Era GOAT and BOAT. Argument to the contrary just indicate a bias/agenda on the part of those making it. In Whisper's case the tell is talking about Henin, who even at her peaky-peak was never ever to win Wimbledon, the Crown Jewel of tennis.

Just think about that.

heyg...@gmail.com

2021-02-21 18:28:04 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

Anyone who follows sports knows that records set before the modern incarnation of a sport aren't given heavy weight. Nobody says "OMG, Jordan didn't beat Bill Russell's record (11 championships when there were 8 teams in the NBA)...he can't be the GOAT"...lol Court doesn't have a single 128-draw slam to her name. As time goes on Serena's 23 will be seen as the modern and most meaningful record.

As for Henin, great as she was, she's talked about in "past champion" terms...her peak was 15 years ago at this point...her last big run at a slam was over a decade ago, and *she is younger than Serena.* To use a hot 3-month period from 15 years ago as some sign of superiority is silliness. She has a losing H2H against all her main rivals...and that's with cutting her career short and limiting loses...lol

Whisper

2021-02-21 21:40:32 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

Absolutely not. Serena knows this better than anyone, that's why she
always looks pissed & is hanging on. Graf won 22 in far fewer yrs & had
no interest in breaking the record. Serena exact opposite.

Post by ***@gmail.com
As for Henin, great as she was, she's talked about in "past champion" terms...her peak was 15 years ago at this point...her last big run at a slam was over a decade ago, and *she is younger than Serena.* To use a hot 3-month period from 15 years ago as some sign of superiority is silliness. She has a losing H2H against all her main rivals...and that's with cutting her career short and limiting loses...lol

I feel a little sad for you because I know you realize Serena won't be
mentioned much when she stops playing because she has no big records.
Her numbers are big yes, but not the biggest in any category. Not even
a calendar slam.

Gracchus

2021-02-21 21:44:51 UTC

Maybe she'd be best off retiring now and dedicating all her time to training the chocolate milk baby for greatness. Then the kid can eventually trounce 40-year-old Osaka and give Serena some measure of satisfaction.

Whisper

2021-02-21 22:07:26 UTC

Serena is the type who eat their young.

Pelle Svanslös

2021-02-22 10:58:52 UTC

Post by ***@gmail.com
As for Henin, great as she was, she's talked about in "past
champion" terms...her peak was 15 years ago at this point...her last
big run at a slam was over a decade ago, and *she is younger than
Serena.* To use a hot 3-month period from 15 years ago as some sign
of superiority is silliness. She has a losing H2H against all her
main rivals...and that's with cutting her career short and limiting
loses...lol

Maybe she'd be best off retiring now and dedicating all her time to
training the chocolate milk baby for greatness. Then the kid can
eventually trounce 40-year-old Osaka and give Serena some measure of
satisfaction.

Serena is the type who eat their young.

She is a bit overweight.

--
“We need to acknowledge he let us down. He went down a path he shouldn’t
have, and we shouldn’t have followed him. We shouldn’t have listened to
him, and we can’t let that happen ever again.”
-- Nikki Haley

heyg...@gmail.com

2021-02-22 13:14:51 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

Absolutely not. Serena knows this better than anyone, that's why she
always looks pissed & is hanging on. Graf won 22 in far fewer yrs & had
no interest in breaking the record. Serena exact opposite.

Lolololol. That's ok, Osaka herself will be mentioning Serena for the next 10-15 years. ;-)

Garvin Yee

2021-02-23 10:12:11 UTC

Post by ***@gmail.com
Anyone who follows sports knows that records set before the modern
incarnation of a sport aren't given heavy weight. Nobody says "OMG,
Jordan didn't beat Bill Russell's record (11 championships when
there were 8 teams in the NBA)...he can't be the GOAT"...lol Court
doesn't have a single 128-draw slam to her name. As time goes on
Serena's 23 will be seen as the modern and most meaningful record.

Absolutely not. Serena knows this better than anyone, that's why she
always looks pissed & is hanging on. Graf won 22 in far fewer yrs & had
no interest in breaking the record. Serena exact opposite.

Post by ***@gmail.com
As for Henin, great as she was, she's talked about in "past
champion" terms...her peak was 15 years ago at this point...her last
big run at a slam was over a decade ago, and *she is younger than
Serena.* To use a hot 3-month period from 15 years ago as some sign
of superiority is silliness. She has a losing H2H against all her
main rivals...and that's with cutting her career short and limiting
loses...lol

Lolololol. That's ok, Osaka herself will be mentioning Serena for the
next 10-15 years. ;-)

Sure maybe, but if Osaka gets to 20 slams then Margaret Court comes into
the conversation as the ultimate goal. Serena would not have been
playing last few yrs if she had 25 slams.

You are completely deluded if you think people will stop
talking about Serena after she retires.

Even YOU, Whisper, are talking about her right now! And
you'll continue to mention her (even against your own will!) for the
next 15-20 years!

You might as well admit she's one of the greatest female tennis
players who ever picked up a racket! That's a FACT.

--
https://fineartamerica.com/art/garvin+yee

Whisper

2021-02-23 10:38:39 UTC

Sure maybe, but if Osaka gets to 20 slams then Margaret Court comes
into the conversation as the ultimate goal. Serena would not have
been playing last few yrs if she had 25 slams.

You are completely deluded if you think people will stop
talking about Serena after she retires.

But what can we say about her if she holds no records?

Even YOU, Whisper, are talking about her right now!

Yes, because she's an active player and is close to claiming the all
time slam record. If she retires with 23 slams I don't see how I will
feel the need to post anything about her? I mean what is there to say?

And
you'll continue to mention her (even against your own will!) for the
next 15-20 years!

Only against fanboys who can't count. Less is not more.

You might as well admit she's one of the greatest female tennis
players who ever picked up a racket! That's a FACT.

Absolutely. The players we talk most about are the slam record holders.
ie the best Wim, USO, FO, AO champs etc. Serena is not in any of those
categories. That's why she's hellbent on winning 25. Nobody can ignore
the all time record holder - Serena knows this better than anybody, as
do Fed, Rafa & Djoker. That's why Margaret Court is always mentioned.
If she had 21 slams how often do you think she'd be mentioned in rst?
Less than Moody.

Garvin Yee

2021-02-23 11:45:13 UTC

Sure maybe, but if Osaka gets to 20 slams then Margaret Court comes
into the conversation as the ultimate goal. Serena would not have
been playing last few yrs if she had 25 slams.

You are completely deluded if you think people will stop
talking about Serena after she retires.

But what can we say about her if she holds no records?

How about longest period between Slam titles?

Serena has 18 years!

Even YOU, Whisper, are talking about her right now!

Just that she was one of the greatest female players of the game,
that's all!

And
you'll continue to mention her (even against your own will!) for the
next 15-20 years!

Only against fanboys who can't count. Less is not more.

Oh, we'll pull you into our discussions, just like right now!

haha!

You might as well admit she's one of the greatest female tennis
players who ever picked up a racket! That's a FACT.

Margaret Court is ancient history. Peak Serena would
absolutely destroy peak Court. You can't really compare
different eras fairly!

--
https://fineartamerica.com/art/garvin+yee

*skriptis

2021-02-23 11:54:55 UTC

On 2/23/2021 3:38 AM, Whisper wrote:> On 23/02/2021 9:12 pm, Garvin Yee wrote:>> On 2/22/2021 6:29 AM, Whisper wrote:>>>>>>>>> Sure maybe, but if Osaka gets to 20 slams then Margaret Court comes >>> into the conversation as the ultimate goal. Serena would not have >>> been playing last few yrs if she had 25 slams.>>>>>>> You are completely deluded if you think people will stop>> talking about Serena after she retires.>>> > But what can we say about her if she holds no records? How about longest period between Slam titles? Serena has 18 years!> > > >> Even YOU, Whisper, are talking about her right now!> > > Yes, because she's an active player and is close to claiming the all > time slam record. If she retires with 23 slams I don't see how I will > feel the need to post anything about her? I mean what is there to say?> Just that she was one of the greatest female players of the game,that's all!>> And>> you'll continue to mention her (even against your own will!) for the >> next 15-20 years!> > > Only against fanboys who can't count. Less is not more. Oh, we'll pull you into our discussions, just like right now! haha!> > >>>> You might as well admit she's one of the greatest female tennis>> players who ever picked up a racket! That's a FACT.>>>>> > Absolutely. The players we talk most about are the slam record holders. > ie the best Wim, USO, FO, AO champs etc. Serena is not in any of those > categories. That's why she's hellbent on winning 25. Nobody can ignore > the all time record holder - Serena knows this better than anybody, as > do Fed, Rafa & Djoker. That's why Margaret Court is always mentioned. > If she had 21 slams how often do you think she'd be mentioned in rst? > Less than Moody.> Margaret Court is ancient history. Peak Serena wouldabsolutely destroy peak Court. You can't really comparedifferent eras fairly!-- https://fineartamerica.com/art/garvin+yee

Most slams:
â¢ Court (24)

Best CGS:
â¢ Graf (4)

CYGS:
â¢ Connolly/Court/Graf

Wimbledon:
â¢ Navratilova (9)

US Open:
â¢ Mallory (8)

French Open
â¢ Evert (7)

Australian Open
â¢ Court (11)

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*skriptis

2021-02-23 11:58:51 UTC

See how this goes?

Most slams:
â¢ Federer/Nadal (20)

Best CGS:
â¢ Emerson/Laver (2)

CYGS:
â¢ Budge/Laver/Laver

Wimbledon:
â¢ Federer (8)

US Open:
â¢ Sears/Larned/Tilden (7)

French Open:
â¢ Nadal (13)

Australian Open:
â¢ Djokovic (9)

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Whisper

2021-02-23 12:02:31 UTC

• Court (24)
• Graf (4)
• Connolly/Court/Graf
• Navratilova (9)
• Mallory (8)
French Open
• Evert (7)
Australian Open
• Court (11)

Yep. That's what future historians/fans will look at when assessing
'ancient' players. Interesting that Margaret is much maligned, yet she
appears in 3 of this huge categories - most slams, calendar slam, 11 AO.
She'll never be forgotten because we all want to know who has the
biggest numbers & 'holy grail' calendar slam. In what universe would it
make sense to talk about Serena

*skriptis

2021-02-23 13:44:08 UTC

Yes, 3 categories out of 7 for Court.
Big thing.

What's your preferred order for these 7 categories? Let's say two players appears in same number of categories?

Total slams is #1 category I guess, and slams are in WUFA order.

But where are CGS and CYGS?
6th and 7th? 2nd and 3rd?

Btw I feel YEâ1 should be 8th category.

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The Iceberg

2021-02-23 19:13:59 UTC

Post by *skriptis
Yes, 3 categories out of 7 for Court.
Big thing.
What's your preferred order for these 7 categories? Let's say two players appears in same number of categories?
Total slams is #1 category I guess, and slams are in WUFA order.
But where are CGS and CYGS?
6th and 7th? 2nd and 3rd?
Btw I feel YE№1 should be 8th category.

consecutive YE#1 should be very high up as it shows true domination. Fed, Djoker and Nadal could all end up with 23 slams each over 20 years, that's why the Golden Slam and Laver's double is so crazy, also Laver prob could've done it more than twice if he'd been allowed to.

guypers

2021-02-23 19:41:58 UTC

Rocket may have won 10 slams in the 5 years he was a pro! Not allowed in the slams, Great player indeed, behind ND, RF!

heyg...@gmail.com

2021-02-23 13:27:40 UTC

• Court (24)
• Graf (4)
• Connolly/Court/Graf
• Navratilova (9)
• Mallory (8)

During US Open coverage across multiple networks I've never seen them list Mallory first. Ever. It's always been Evert listed (now tied with Serena).

*skriptis

2021-02-23 13:35:42 UTC

Strange.

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The Iceberg

2021-02-23 19:11:26 UTC

• Court (24)
• Graf (4)
• Connolly/Court/Graf
• Navratilova (9)
• Mallory (8)

During US Open coverage across multiple networks I've never seen them list Mallory first. Ever. It's always been Evert listed (now tied with Serena).

let me guess, you are American.

Garvin Yee

2021-02-23 22:36:01 UTC

• Court (24)
• Graf (4)
• Connolly/Court/Graf
• Navratilova (9)
• Mallory (8)

During US Open coverage across multiple networks I've never seen them list Mallory first. Ever. It's always been Evert listed (now tied with Serena).

Longest period between Slam titles:
Serena Williams with 18 years.

--
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*skriptis

2021-02-24 10:02:15 UTC

Great.

But then again, would you rather win FO/Wim double and likely end as #1 for the year...

or you'd rather win FO and Wim 18 years apart?

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Whisper

2021-02-23 11:56:51 UTC

Margaret Court is ancient history. Peak Serena would
absolutely destroy peak Court. You can't really compare
different eras fairly!

Serena will be ancient history one day too. They will be 2 ancient
players, one won 24 slams & the other 23.

I'll still respect her achievements like I do Court & Tilden etc

The Iceberg

2021-02-22 14:31:14 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

Absolutely not. Serena knows this better than anyone, that's why she
always looks pissed & is hanging on. Graf won 22 in far fewer yrs & had
no interest in breaking the record. Serena exact opposite.

the biggest thing is the Golden Slam, as max always says.

The Iceberg

2021-02-22 14:30:20 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

Anyone who follows sports knows that records set before the modern incarnation of a sport aren't given heavy weight. Nobody says "OMG, Jordan didn't beat Bill Russell's record (11 championships when there were 8 teams in the NBA)...he can't be the GOAT"...lol Court doesn't have a single 128-draw slam to her name. As time goes on Serena's 23 will be seen as the modern and most meaningful record.
As for Henin, great as she was, she's talked about in "past champion" terms...her peak was 15 years ago at this point...her last big run at a slam was over a decade ago, and *she is younger than Serena.* To use a hot 3-month period from 15 years ago as some sign of superiority is silliness. She has a losing H2H against all her main rivals...and that's with cutting her career short and limiting loses...lol

then why are ALL the commentators and journos so desperate for Serena then?

PeteWasLucky

2021-02-18 07:45:04 UTC

You are grouping Graf and Henin? Do you want to kill Max? :)

Henin was good player but she isn't in Serena's class.

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The Iceberg

2021-02-18 10:39:46 UTC

Post by PeteWasLucky
You are grouping Graf and Henin? Do you want to kill Max? :)
Henin was good player but she isn't in Serena's class.

Henin was way better than Serena, technically and talented, Serena is closer to Kim Clijsters level but with a much better serve. Henin's only problem was being scared to win Wimbledon, whereas Serena always embraces winning there, Serena is a real woman!!

Whisper

2021-02-18 16:19:51 UTC

Post by PeteWasLucky
You are grouping Graf and Henin? Do you want to kill Max? :)
Henin was good player but she isn't in Serena's class.

2007

French Open - Henin defeated Serena

Wimbledon - Henin defeated Serena

US O

PeteWasLucky

2021-02-18 16:25:12 UTC

Big deal

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Gracchus

2021-02-18 16:32:26 UTC

Post by PeteWasLucky
Big deal

It is, actually. How can you say a player was outclassed when she has a 6-8 h2h vs. Serena?

People don't give Henin enough credit and I don't know why. Partly because she had a short career I guess + couldn't win a Wimbledon. But in many of her high-stakes matches she came through against the best.

PeteWasLucky

2021-02-18 18:08:39 UTC

We can say she is a good player but it's dumb to say she is better
than Serena.

Maybe we need to come with some magical 7543 to give her the edge
but this won't work either, so could be we have give higher
weights to the years Henin won at.

I liked Henin but she was high on PEDs.

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Max's Hoemom

2021-02-18 18:17:11 UTC

Post by PeteWasLucky
We can say she is a good player but it's dumb to say she is better
than Serena.

Better - yes, greater - no.

Post by PeteWasLucky
Maybe we need to come with some magical 7543 to give her the edge
but this won't work either, so could be we have give higher
weights to the years Henin won at.
I liked Henin but she was high on PEDs.

Are you trolling?

Post by PeteWasLucky
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The Iceberg

2021-02-19 16:49:52 UTC

Post by PeteWasLucky
We can say she is a good player but it's dumb to say she is better
than Serena.
Maybe we need to come with some magical 7543 to give her the edge
but this won't work either, so could be we have give higher
weights to the years Henin won at.
I liked Henin but she was high on PEDs.

the main reason you guys hated her back then was because she wasn't American! looks like it still the same.

StephenJ

2021-02-21 14:10:11 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

Serena was far better at peak than Graf or Henin ever were. She played Osaka, who looks phenomenal right now and would probably beat peak Graf or Henin easily, a pretty good match while 40 years old.

There's a good reason Osaka literally bows to Serena - she's easily the Open Era GOAT and BOAT, and Osaka knows she has a lot of work to do to change that. Other than her politics, I think she has the tools to do it.

guypers

2021-02-21 16:17:05 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

Serena was far better at peak than Graf or Henin ever were. She played Osaka, who looks phenomenal right now and would probably beat peak Graf or Henin easily, a pretty good match while 40 years old.
There's a good reason Osaka literally bows to Serena - she's easily the Open Era GOAT and BOAT, and Osaka knows she has a lot of work to do to change that. Other than her politics, I think she has the tools to do it.

Yes, absolutely, Court is Emmo lite, nonentity, homophobe, ugly, looks like a man, Jesus, who would shtup her?

Whisper

2021-02-21 21:23:07 UTC

Post by guypers

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

Serena was far better at peak than Graf or Henin ever were. She played Osaka, who looks phenomenal right now and would probably beat peak Graf or Henin easily, a pretty good match while 40 years old.
There's a good reason Osaka literally bows to Serena - she's easily the Open Era GOAT and BOAT, and Osaka knows she has a lot of work to do to change that. Other than her politics, I think she has the tools to do it.

Yes, absolutely, Court is Emmo lite, nonentity, homophobe, ugly, looks like a man, Jesus, who would shtup her?

Yes, but doesn't change the fact 24 is the record.

Todd Phillips

2021-02-22 13:04:04 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

Serena was far better at peak than Graf or Henin ever were. She played Osaka, who looks phenomenal right now and would probably beat peak Graf or Henin easily, a pretty good match while 40 years old.
There's a good reason Osaka literally bows to Serena - she's easily the Open Era GOAT and BOAT, and Osaka knows she has a lot of work to do to change that. Other than her politics, I think she has the tools to do it.

Yes, absolutely, Court is Emmo lite, nonentity, homophobe, ugly, looks like a man, Jesus, who would shtup her?

Yes, but doesn't change the fact 24 is the record.

Yes, 24 is the pre-modern era record. Just like Bill Russell's 11 NBA championships is the pre-modern era record in basketball. I have no doubt if Jordan had gotten to 10 NBA championships he'd want that 11th too, but it doesn't make those 11 the better sports achievement.

Whisper

2021-02-22 13:26:39 UTC

Post by Todd Phillips

Post by guypers

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

Serena was far better at peak than Graf or Henin ever were. She played Osaka, who looks phenomenal right now and would probably beat peak Graf or Henin easily, a pretty good match while 40 years old.
There's a good reason Osaka literally bows to Serena - she's easily the Open Era GOAT and BOAT, and Osaka knows she has a lot of work to do to change that. Other than her politics, I think she has the tools to do it.

Yes, absolutely, Court is Emmo lite, nonentity, homophobe, ugly, looks like a man, Jesus, who would shtup her?

Yes, but doesn't change the fact 24 is the record.

'Better' is subjective. What isn't subjective is titles won.

*skriptis

2021-02-22 14:34:08 UTC

Fanboys want to reset records every time their favourite player comes close (but is unlikely to break it, or the fanboys themselves fear their hero might not break it).

Remember 2010 FO?

Nadal avenged his 2009 loss by beating SÃ¶derling in the final and winning his 5th FO and becoming #1 again I think.

TT was all over the place saying "Rafa's 5 FO titles top Borg's 6".

You said to him the same thing you're saying now.

;)

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Whisper

2021-02-22 23:30:39 UTC

Post by *skriptis
Fanboys want to reset records every time their favourite player comes close (but is unlikely to break it, or the fanboys themselves fear their hero might not break it).
Remember 2010 FO?
Nadal avenged his 2009 loss by beating Söderling in the final and winning his 5th FO and becoming #1 again I think.
TT was all over the place saying "Rafa's 5 FO titles top Borg's 6".
You said to him the same thing you're saying now.
;)

I'm good at math :

heyg...@gmail.com

2021-02-22 13:07:13 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

Serena was far better at peak than Graf or Henin ever were. She played Osaka, who looks phenomenal right now and would probably beat peak Graf or Henin easily, a pretty good match while 40 years old.
There's a good reason Osaka literally bows to Serena - she's easily the Open Era GOAT and BOAT, and Osaka knows she has a lot of work to do to change that. Other than her politics, I think she has the tools to do it.

Yes, absolutely, Court is Emmo lite, nonentity, homophobe, ugly, looks like a man, Jesus, who would shtup her?

Yes, but doesn't change the fact 24 is the record.

*skriptis

2021-02-22 15:04:58 UTC

What does it mean pre-modern?

There was no amateur/pro era split in women's tennis so not so clear what you mean?

If you're refering to lack of 7 rounds, Laver also won 1969 AO by playing 6 rounds, no?
But we're not going to discount his record.

For me, women tennis never left pre-modern era. They're still playing best of 3 in slams.

That's a rule from Victorian age when women were seen as weaker.

They demanded "same"money prize (despite their matches lasting shorter, being less popular and watched) but they never asked for same rules.

They seem to have no pride at all.

When women start playing best of 5, modern era will begin.

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Whisper

2021-02-22 23:44:41 UTC

Post by *skriptis
What does it mean pre-modern?

It's a term ceibs fans use to discount better records.

The Iceberg

2021-02-22 14:29:21 UTC

Post by guypers

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

Serena was far better at peak than Graf or Henin ever were. She played Osaka, who looks phenomenal right now and would probably beat peak Graf or Henin easily, a pretty good match while 40 years old.
There's a good reason Osaka literally bows to Serena - she's easily the Open Era GOAT and BOAT, and Osaka knows she has a lot of work to do to change that. Other than her politics, I think she has the tools to do it.

Yes, absolutely, Court is Emmo lite, nonentity, homophobe, ugly, looks like a man, Jesus, who would shtup her?

in other words you mean she's the GOAT but disagrees with your dumb sick Marxist leftist politics and lies?

bob

2021-02-22 19:20:43 UTC

Yeah the Serena bias is laughable. She is one of the greatest ever to
be sure, but nowhere near this untouchable god-like player. At peaks I
think Graf & Henin are better.

Serena was far better at peak than Graf or Henin ever were. She played Osaka, who looks phenomenal right now and would probably beat peak Graf or Henin easily, a pretty good match while 40 years old.
There's a good reason Osaka literally bows to Serena - she's easily the Open Era GOAT and BOAT, and Osaka knows she has a lot of work to do to change that. Other than her politics, I think she has the tools to do it.

osaka isn't getting anywhere near 20. she's a heckuva talent, IMO a
historically high talent, but in order to get that high on the slam
tallies you have to really want it for a long time. fed, nadal, djok,
serena. osaska's more interested in what color BLM mask she's wearing
for the next match. i think even with her immense talent she peaks at
12-14 max.

bob

jdeluise

2021-02-18 07:17:45 UTC

Post by PeteWasLucky
Chris Evert was beyond disgusting today "the matches are on Serena
racquet, Serena is top 1, 2 or 3, and when Osaka got broken in the
second set, she was too happy screaming that she predicted Osaka will
choke and Serena will do great, then the match became on Osaka
racquet, then... it never ended".

She reminded me of Hillary at that moment.

The Iceberg

2021-02-18 10:37:32 UTC

Post by jdeluise

She reminded me of Hillary at that moment.

were you absolutely in love with her too?? :D

Max's Hoemom

2021-02-18 16:17:45 UTC

Post by Garvin Yee
Very strong player!
A few too many double faults, but that happens!
Naomi is the favorite to win, of course!
:)

She stormed back beautifully after the weak service game. Incredible angles she came up with on both sides to serve it out.
As for Serena, she had three burdens on her movement today: advancing age, too much weight, and Chris Evert's head up her ass.

I thought she lost weight specifically to win the AO. I am shocked Halep got thrashed by her. I am disappointed Iga lost to Halep. She would have matched up better against Serena.

Anyway, glad Osaka won. I hope she wins the final too. We need a new champion. Its been a while!

Post by Gracchus
Her biggest problem though was an opponent who doesn't rattle. Well done by the mouse!

I get Eurosport on my TV. So I watch that. Much more interesting commentary than what the American commentators provide. And it is not biased at all.

Whisper

2021-02-18 16:30:07 UTC

Post by Max's Hoemom
Anyway, glad Osaka won. I hope she wins the final too. We need a new champion. Its been a while!

Osaka already won AO 2019 idiot

Max's Hoemom

2021-02-18 17:42:07 UTC

Post by Max's Hoemom
Anyway, glad Osaka won. I hope she wins the final too. We need a new champion. Its been a while!

Osaka already won AO 2019 idiot

When you make Eric cartman like posts like these, no one will take you seriously. I guess Flavia Pennetta was also a new champion then? I am talking someone who completely dominates the game the way Steffi did between 1987-89 winning 96% percent of her matches... we need someone like that.

*skriptis

2021-02-18 17:49:12 UTC

On Thursday, February 18, 2021 at 10:30:14 AM UTC-6, Whisper wrote:> On 19/02/2021 3:17 am, Max's Hoemom wrote: > > > > Anyway, glad Osaka won. I hope she wins the final too. We need a new champion. Its been a while! > >> Osaka already won AO 2019 idiotWhen you make Eric cartman like posts like these, no one will take you seriously. I guess Flavia Pennetta was also a new champion then? I am talking someone who completely dominates the game the way Steffi did between 1987-89 winning 96% percent of her matches... we need someone like that.

No we don't.

We need diversity.

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Max's Hoemom

2021-02-18 18:14:03 UTC

No we don't.
We need diversity.
--

Fuck off

Whisper

2021-02-19 14:33:13 UTC

Post by Max's Hoemom
Anyway, glad Osaka won. I hope she wins the final too. We need a new champion. Its been a while!

Osaka already won AO 2019 idiot

No, we just need consistent slam champs. Osaka will have won a slam 4
yrs in a row if she wins tomorrow. How many players have won the 1st 4
slam finals they played? Will that be a record in open era?

We know Lendl lost his 1st 4 slam finals & 5 of 6.

Max's Hoemom

2021-02-18 16:15:12 UTC

Post by Garvin Yee
Very strong player!
A few too many double faults, but that happens!
Naomi is the favorite to win, of course!
:)
--
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Because of the power cut nightmare in Texas, I could not see the match. Would have loved to see her thrashed. Heard she cried and left the press conference abruptly. BWAHAHAHAHA.

Gracchus

2021-02-18 16:49:13 UTC

Post by Garvin Yee
Very strong player!
A few too many double faults, but that happens!
Naomi is the favorite to win, of course!
:)
--
https://fineartamerica.com/art/garvin+yee

Because of the power cut nightmare in Texas, I could not see the match. Would have loved to see her thrashed. Heard she cried and left the press conference abruptly. BWAHAHAHAHA.

I only got to see the second set but it was glorious. Evert kept trying to prop up Serena as if she was going to break through any second, then Osaka totally shut her down. Looks like Serena's husband ran his mouth too soon. He called Tiriac racist and sexist (of course) for saying Serena is fat and slow. It's amazing she can move at all out there with the Mr. Sluggo physique. If she can't at least get in shape she should retire already. I don't think she'll ever get that last elusive slam.

Max's Hoemom

2021-02-18 17:40:10 UTC

Post by Garvin Yee
Very strong player!
A few too many double faults, but that happens!
Naomi is the favorite to win, of course!
:)
--
https://fineartamerica.com/art/garvin+yee

Because of the power cut nightmare in Texas, I could not see the match. Would have loved to see her thrashed. Heard she cried and left the press conference abruptly. BWAHAHAHAHA.

I think it was unfair she got past Graf's count who retired before she turned 30. And it will be hugely unfair if she gets past Court's count. Because Court got to 24 playing much fewer slams.

Whisper

2021-02-19 14:28:57 UTC