[tor dot com] Science Fictional Rulers, from Undying Emperors to Starlike Sovereigns

Post by j***@panix.com
Science Fictional Rulers, from Undying Emperors to Starlike Sovereigns

The part about the Ancillary books didn't really mention the how of the Lord of Radch, using cloned bodies with implants that communicate between the various selves. That's important because it's how there can be a meaningful difference of opinion within what is supposed to be a single entity.

Brian

Quadibloc

2019-10-22 18:43:13 UTC

Post by j***@panix.com
Science Fictional Rulers, from Undying Emperors to Starlike Sovereigns
https://www.tor.com/2019/10/22/science-fictional-rulers-from-undying-emperors-to-starlike-sovereigns/

Yet again, the mighty James Nicoll dazzles us with with his scintillating
sarcasm!

There's nothing wrong with sarcasm, I employ it on occasion myself, but I've
noticed that it played a central role in the last few columns mentioned here. If
you always say the opposite of what you mean, eventually people will start
getting confused.

As for the last novel mentioned: I haven't seen it. But based on your
description, it would not surprise me if the supreme ruler of the future age is
Vivian Liao's alternate-future self: the premise being that rebels with a time
machine decided to do a ghost-of-Christmas-future thingy with their dictator
just before she gained power, to show her what a nightmare it became, and
prevent their present... but they hadn't counted on her getting noticed.

And so the supreme ruler needs to send her back, but erase her memory first, to
prevent the time paradox that would unseat her.

Maybe this book will not resort to such a tired old science-fiction cliche as
this (original in the ring-the-changes sense, but that's about it) however.

John Savard

Kevrob

2019-10-22 18:55:31 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
Yet again, the mighty James Nicoll dazzles us with with his scintillating
sarcasm!

Perhaps you and James will have a little fun dealing with
the aftermath of your recent election.

[quote]

Justin Trudeau’s Liberals have retained enough seats to govern with a
strong minority in the House of Commons as the result of a robust showing
in Ontario, bringing an end to an acrimonious campaign and ushering in
the uncertainty of a divided Parliament and a country split along
regional lines.

The Liberals face significant challenges as they enter their second
mandate: They won the most seats in the House, but lost the popular
vote to the Conservatives. About 6.2-million Canadian voters – or 34.4
per cent – chose Mr. Scheer’s party over the 5.9-million voters – or
33.1 – cent – who opted for Mr. Trudeau’s Liberals. They were shut out
in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

[/quote]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-federal-election-liberals-reelected-minority-government-trudeau/

Good luck with that!

Kevin R

James Nicoll

2019-10-22 19:20:36 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
Yet again, the mighty James Nicoll dazzles us with with his scintillating
sarcasm!

Perhaps you and James will have a little fun dealing with
the aftermath of your recent election.
[quote]
Justin Trudeauâs Liberals have retained enough seats to govern with a
strong minority in the House of Commons as the result of a robust showing
in Ontario, bringing an end to an acrimonious campaign and ushering in
the uncertainty of a divided Parliament and a country split along
regional lines.

An undivided Parliament would be a bit worrisome. Even plain variety
majorities can and often do just steam roll the opposition

Kudos for the Conservatives for finding a way despite Liberal
scandals, and widespread dissatisfaction with failed LPC promises to
remain in opposition.

On the minus side: election in six to eighteen months. On the plus side,
I will probably work the polls again so more money for me. On the super-
plus side, the guy who blamed not getting the Conservative leadership on
a conspiracy of dairy farmers lost his seat to a dairy farmer.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Kevrob

2019-10-22 19:33:29 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
Yet again, the mighty James Nicoll dazzles us with with his scintillating
sarcasm!

An undivided Parliament would be a bit worrisome. Even plain variety
majorities can and often do just steam roll the opposition
Kudos for the Conservatives for finding a way despite Liberal
scandals, and widespread dissatisfaction with failed LPC promises to
remain in opposition.
On the minus side: election in six to eighteen months. On the plus side,
I will probably work the polls again so more money for me. On the super-
plus side, the guy who blamed not getting the Conservative leadership on
a conspiracy of dairy farmers lost his seat to a dairy farmer.

I know you think "everything is worse with Libertarians,"
but arguably, from my POV, a Grits/NDP coalition could be
worse for the True North than a weak Liberal majority.
We shall see. There's always "the worse, the better."
[John Adams, among others]

Now, if we aren't careful, we'll get stuck with another
term with our artificially-faced buffoon, as opposed to
an artificially brown-faced one. Or, we could get something
even worse.

Yes, folks, we could get worse than Trump. I'm still not
voting for him.

Kevin R

Lynn McGuire

2019-10-22 20:26:01 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
Yet again, the mighty James Nicoll dazzles us with with his scintillating
sarcasm!

An undivided Parliament would be a bit worrisome. Even plain variety
majorities can and often do just steam roll the opposition
Kudos for the Conservatives for finding a way despite Liberal
scandals, and widespread dissatisfaction with failed LPC promises to
remain in opposition.
On the minus side: election in six to eighteen months. On the plus side,
I will probably work the polls again so more money for me. On the super-
plus side, the guy who blamed not getting the Conservative leadership on
a conspiracy of dairy farmers lost his seat to a dairy farmer.

I know you think "everything is worse with Libertarians,"
but arguably, from my POV, a Grits/NDP coalition could be
worse for the True North than a weak Liberal majority.
We shall see. There's always "the worse, the better."
[John Adams, among others]
Now, if we aren't careful, we'll get stuck with another
term with our artificially-faced buffoon, as opposed to
an artificially brown-faced one. Or, we could get something
even worse.
Yes, folks, we could get worse than Trump. I'm still not
voting for him.
Kevin R

Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth. Elisabeth's new federal
property tax looks scarier by the day. She will have to tax the
property and IRAs of the middle class to achieve her goals.

Lynn

Dimensional Traveler

2019-10-22 22:02:50 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
Yet again, the mighty James Nicoll dazzles us with with his scintillating
sarcasm!

An undivided Parliament would be a bit worrisome. Even plain variety
majorities can and often do just steam roll the opposition
Kudos for the Conservatives for finding a way despite Liberal
scandals, and widespread dissatisfaction with failed LPC promises to
remain in opposition.
On the minus side: election in six to eighteen months. On the plus side,
I will probably work the polls again so more money for me. On the super-
plus side, the guy who blamed not getting the Conservative leadership on
a conspiracy of dairy farmers lost his seat to a dairy farmer.

I know you think "everything is worse with Libertarians,"
but arguably, from my POV, a Grits/NDP coalition could be
worse for the True North than a weak Liberal majority.
We shall see. There's always "the worse, the better."
[John Adams, among others]
Now, if we aren't careful, we'll get stuck with another
term with our artificially-faced buffoon, as opposed to
an artificially brown-faced one. Or, we could get something
even worse.
Yes, folks, we could get worse than Trump. I'm still not
voting for him.
Kevin R

Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth. Elisabeth's new federal
property tax looks scarier by the day. She will have to tax the
property and IRAs of the middle class to achieve her goals.

Who do you think is paying most of the taxes NOW?!

--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"

Lynn McGuire

2019-10-22 22:31:08 UTC

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:35:58 AM UTC-6,
Yet again, the mighty James Nicoll dazzles us with with his scintillating
sarcasm!

An undivided Parliament would be a bit worrisome. Even plain variety
majorities can and often do just steam roll the opposition
Kudos for the Conservatives for finding a way despite Liberal
scandals, and widespread dissatisfaction with failed LPC promises to
remain in opposition.
On the minus side: election in six to eighteen months. On the plus side,
I will probably work the polls again so more money for me. On the super-
plus side, the guy who blamed not getting the Conservative
leadership on
a conspiracy of dairy farmers lost his seat to a dairy farmer.

I know you think "everything is worse with Libertarians,"
but arguably, from my POV, a Grits/NDP coalition could be
worse for the True North than a weak Liberal majority.
We shall see. There's always "the worse, the better."
[John Adams, among others]
Now, if we aren't careful, we'll get stuck with another
term with our artificially-faced buffoon, as opposed to
an artificially brown-faced one. Or, we could get something
even worse.
Yes, folks, we could get worse than Trump. I'm still not
voting for him.
Kevin R

Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth. Elisabeth's new
federal property tax looks scarier by the day. She will have to tax
the property and IRAs of the middle class to achieve her goals.

Who do you think is paying most of the taxes NOW?!

Us, the middle class.

Lynn

Chris Buckley

2019-10-23 20:42:15 UTC

Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth. Elisabeth's new federal
property tax looks scarier by the day. She will have to tax the
property and IRAs of the middle class to achieve her goals.

Who do you think is paying most of the taxes NOW?!

Federal income tax, it's the rich. The top 1.2% (over $500,000 income)
currently pay over 51% of the total personal income tax bills
(Congressional Budget Office estimates for 2019). Note that the
percentage paid by the rich went up notably under Trump's tax
bill, something that never seems to get mentioned in my local paper
(Washington Post)!

It's only when you figure in Social Security, which is meant to at
least partially be a direct contribution benefit (what you personally
get out is based on what you personally put in) that the middle class
pays more.

Chris

Scott Lurndal

2019-10-23 20:47:14 UTC

Post by Chris Buckley

Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.Â Elisabeth's new federal
property tax looks scarier by the day.Â She will have to tax the
property and IRAs of the middle class to achieve her goals.

Who do you think is paying most of the taxes NOW?!

Federal income tax, it's the rich. The top 1.2% (over $500,000 income)
currently pay over 51% of the total personal income tax bills
(Congressional Budget Office estimates for 2019). Note that the
percentage paid by the rich went up notably under Trump's tax
bill, something that never seems to get mentioned in my local paper
(Washington Post)!
It's only when you figure in Social Security, which is meant to at
least partially be a direct contribution benefit (what you personally
get out is based on what you personally put in) that the middle class
pays more.

That seems like comparing apples and oranges. As a percentage of income,
the middle class pay _more_ in taxes than the ultra rich (even leaving
aside their access to various tax shelters and tax dodges not available
to the poor and middle class).

Note that since the rich hold far more than 50% of the total wealth of the
country, they're getting a really good deal tax-wise, to the detriment
of the rest of the US population.

Chris Buckley

2019-10-23 21:13:39 UTC

Post by Chris Buckley

Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth. Elisabeth's new federal
property tax looks scarier by the day. She will have to tax the
property and IRAs of the middle class to achieve her goals.

Who do you think is paying most of the taxes NOW?!

Federal income tax, it's the rich. The top 1.2% (over $500,000 income)
currently pay over 51% of the total personal income tax bills
(Congressional Budget Office estimates for 2019). Note that the
percentage paid by the rich went up notably under Trump's tax
bill, something that never seems to get mentioned in my local paper
(Washington Post)!
It's only when you figure in Social Security, which is meant to at
least partially be a direct contribution benefit (what you personally
get out is based on what you personally put in) that the middle class
pays more.

That seems like comparing apples and oranges. As a percentage of income,
the middle class pay _more_ in taxes than the ultra rich (even leaving
aside their access to various tax shelters and tax dodges not available
to the poor and middle class).
Note that since the rich hold far more than 50% of the total wealth of the
country, they're getting a really good deal tax-wise, to the detriment
of the rest of the US population.

I don't know what you're talking about. The question was who is paying
the most taxes now (nothing about what's fair). That is the question *I*
was talking about.

I do have to correct my statement some though. I looked around more,
and counting all Federal taxes (including Social Security), the rich
are still paying most of the taxes. Top 10% (income over $229,900)
are currently paying 53.8% of Federal taxes.

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/model-estimates/baseline-distribution-income-and-federal-taxes-august-2018/t18-0066-baseline

You have to start considering things like state sales tax before the
middle class pays more.

Chris

Lynn McGuire

2019-10-23 22:08:52 UTC

Post by Chris Buckley

Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.Â Elisabeth's new federal
property tax looks scarier by the day.Â She will have to tax the
property and IRAs of the middle class to achieve her goals.

Who do you think is paying most of the taxes NOW?!

Federal income tax, it's the rich. The top 1.2% (over $500,000 income)
currently pay over 51% of the total personal income tax bills
(Congressional Budget Office estimates for 2019). Note that the
percentage paid by the rich went up notably under Trump's tax
bill, something that never seems to get mentioned in my local paper
(Washington Post)!
It's only when you figure in Social Security, which is meant to at
least partially be a direct contribution benefit (what you personally
get out is based on what you personally put in) that the middle class
pays more.

That seems like comparing apples and oranges. As a percentage of income,
the middle class pay _more_ in taxes than the ultra rich (even leaving
aside their access to various tax shelters and tax dodges not available
to the poor and middle class).
Note that since the rich hold far more than 50% of the total wealth of the
country, they're getting a really good deal tax-wise, to the detriment
of the rest of the US population.

So, when you say that the middle class are paying more in taxes than the
ultra rich, are you talking about income tax, sales tax, property tax,
or the sum of all those taxes ?

Lynn

David DeLaney

2019-10-23 05:06:38 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.

... which tells me that a) you have failed to disbelieve ANYTHING the orange
buffoon says about himself, b) also failed to disbelieve anything he and his
followers (as distinct from 'any Republicans') say about Democrats, liberals,
and those two in particular, and c) don't remember what it's like to have a
President who can emit coherent paragraphs that show evidence of knowledge
and thought behind them.

Dave, srsly, your base axioms appear to be FULL of contradictions. I hope
Terry's okay, cuz you need a talkin'-to from him

--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

h***@gmail.com

2019-10-23 05:58:53 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.

... which tells me that a) you have failed to disbelieve ANYTHING the orange
buffoon says about himself, b) also failed to disbelieve anything he and his
followers (as distinct from 'any Republicans') say about Democrats, liberals,
and those two in particular, and c) don't remember what it's like to have a
President who can emit coherent paragraphs that show evidence of knowledge
and thought behind them.
Dave, srsly, your base axioms appear to be FULL of contradictions. I hope
Terry's okay, cuz you need a talkin'-to from him

Terry had either drunk the orange cool-aid or found it amusing to post as if he'd drunk the orange cool-aid.

Lynn McGuire

2019-10-23 19:35:28 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.

... which tells me that a) you have failed to disbelieve ANYTHING the orange
buffoon says about himself, b) also failed to disbelieve anything he and his
followers (as distinct from 'any Republicans') say about Democrats, liberals,
and those two in particular, and c) don't remember what it's like to have a
President who can emit coherent paragraphs that show evidence of knowledge
and thought behind them.
Dave, srsly, your base axioms appear to be FULL of contradictions. I hope
Terry's okay, cuz you need a talkin'-to from him

GUCS passed away.

Lynn

Scott Lurndal

2019-10-23 19:58:58 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.

... which tells me that a) you have failed to disbelieve ANYTHING the orange
buffoon says about himself, b) also failed to disbelieve anything he and his
followers (as distinct from 'any Republicans') say about Democrats, liberals,
and those two in particular, and c) don't remember what it's like to have a
President who can emit coherent paragraphs that show evidence of knowledge
and thought behind them.
Dave, srsly, your base axioms appear to be FULL of contradictions. I hope
Terry's okay, cuz you need a talkin'-to from him

GUCS passed away.

You've stated this twice with no supporting evidence.

Robert Carnegie

2019-10-23 20:38:07 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.

... which tells me that a) you have failed to disbelieve ANYTHING the orange
buffoon says about himself, b) also failed to disbelieve anything he and his
followers (as distinct from 'any Republicans') say about Democrats, liberals,
and those two in particular, and c) don't remember what it's like to have a
President who can emit coherent paragraphs that show evidence of knowledge
and thought behind them.
Dave, srsly, your base axioms appear to be FULL of contradictions. I hope
Terry's okay, cuz you need a talkin'-to from him

GUCS passed away.

You've stated this twice with no supporting evidence.

No evidence! No evidence! Thank you.

Lynn McGuire

2019-10-23 22:15:22 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.

... which tells me that a) you have failed to disbelieve ANYTHING the orange
buffoon says about himself, b) also failed to disbelieve anything he and his
followers (as distinct from 'any Republicans') say about Democrats, liberals,
and those two in particular, and c) don't remember what it's like to have a
President who can emit coherent paragraphs that show evidence of knowledge
and thought behind them.
Dave, srsly, your base axioms appear to be FULL of contradictions. I hope
Terry's okay, cuz you need a talkin'-to from him

GUCS passed away.

You've stated this twice with no supporting evidence.

Have you ever seen the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" ? Specifically,
the shave and a haircut scene ?

Lynn

Scott Lurndal

2019-10-23 23:39:23 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.

... which tells me that a) you have failed to disbelieve ANYTHING the orange
buffoon says about himself, b) also failed to disbelieve anything he and his
followers (as distinct from 'any Republicans') say about Democrats, liberals,
and those two in particular, and c) don't remember what it's like to have a
President who can emit coherent paragraphs that show evidence of knowledge
and thought behind them.
Dave, srsly, your base axioms appear to be FULL of contradictions. I hope
Terry's okay, cuz you need a talkin'-to from him

GUCS passed away.

You've stated this twice with no supporting evidence.

Have you ever seen the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" ? Specifically,
the shave and a haircut scene ?
http://youtu.be/xWdCQqAJxS0

No.

Dorothy J Heydt

2019-10-23 23:36:04 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.

liberals,

Post by David DeLaney
and those two in particular, and c) don't remember what it's like to have a
President who can emit coherent paragraphs that show evidence of knowledge
and thought behind them.
Dave, srsly, your base axioms appear to be FULL of contradictions. I hope
Terry's okay, cuz you need a talkin'-to from him

GUCS passed away.

You've stated this twice with no supporting evidence.

Have you ever seen the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" ? Specifically,
the shave and a haircut scene ?
http://youtu.be/xWdCQqAJxS0

Yes. Now, what's the relevance?

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Lynn McGuire

2019-10-24 00:07:43 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.

liberals,

GUCS passed away.

You've stated this twice with no supporting evidence.

Have you ever seen the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" ? Specifically,
the shave and a haircut scene ?
http://youtu.be/xWdCQqAJxS0

Yes. Now, what's the relevance?

Drawing out a lurker into the open by doing absurd things.

Lynn

Dorothy J Heydt

2019-10-24 00:19:56 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.

... which tells me that a) you have failed to disbelieve ANYTHING

the orange

Post by David DeLaney
buffoon says about himself, b) also failed to disbelieve anything

he and his

Post by David DeLaney
followers (as distinct from 'any Republicans') say about Democrats,

liberals,

Post by David DeLaney
and those two in particular, and c) don't remember what it's like

to have a

Post by David DeLaney
President who can emit coherent paragraphs that show evidence of knowledge
and thought behind them.
Dave, srsly, your base axioms appear to be FULL of contradictions. I hope
Terry's okay, cuz you need a talkin'-to from him

GUCS passed away.

You've stated this twice with no supporting evidence.

Have you ever seen the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" ? Specifically,
the shave and a haircut scene ?
http://youtu.be/xWdCQqAJxS0

Yes. Now, what's the relevance?

Drawing out a lurker into the open by doing absurd things.

So that's what you were doing, by claiming that Terry was dead?

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Dimensional Traveler

2019-10-24 02:12:26 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.

... which tells me that a) you have failed to disbelieve ANYTHING

the orange

Post by David DeLaney
buffoon says about himself, b) also failed to disbelieve anything

he and his

Post by David DeLaney
followers (as distinct from 'any Republicans') say about Democrats,

liberals,

Post by David DeLaney
and those two in particular, and c) don't remember what it's like

to have a

GUCS passed away.

You've stated this twice with no supporting evidence.

Have you ever seen the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" ? Specifically,
the shave and a haircut scene ?
http://youtu.be/xWdCQqAJxS0

Yes. Now, what's the relevance?

Drawing out a lurker into the open by doing absurd things.

So that's what you were doing, by claiming that Terry was dead?

Lynn really needs to try _much_ harder if that's his goal.

--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"

Dorothy J Heydt

2019-10-23 22:07:32 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.

... which tells me that a) you have failed to disbelieve ANYTHING the orange
buffoon says about himself, b) also failed to disbelieve anything he and his
followers (as distinct from 'any Republicans') say about Democrats, liberals,
and those two in particular, and c) don't remember what it's like to have a
President who can emit coherent paragraphs that show evidence of knowledge
and thought behind them.
Dave, srsly, your base axioms appear to be FULL of contradictions. I hope
Terry's okay, cuz you need a talkin'-to from him

GUCS passed away.

Really???

Where/how did you find that out?

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Lynn McGuire

2019-10-23 22:44:02 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.

... which tells me that a) you have failed to disbelieve ANYTHING the orange
buffoon says about himself, b) also failed to disbelieve anything he and his
followers (as distinct from 'any Republicans') say about Democrats, liberals,
and those two in particular, and c) don't remember what it's like to have a
President who can emit coherent paragraphs that show evidence of knowledge
and thought behind them.
Dave, srsly, your base axioms appear to be FULL of contradictions. I hope
Terry's okay, cuz you need a talkin'-to from him

GUCS passed away.

Really???
Where/how did you find that out?

Have you ever seen the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" ? Specifically,
the shave and a haircut scene ?
http://youtu.be/xWdCQqAJxS0

Lynn

Dorothy J Heydt

2019-10-23 23:36:31 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth.

liberals,

GUCS passed away.

Really???
Where/how did you find that out?

Have you ever seen the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" ? Specifically,
the shave and a haircut scene ?
http://youtu.be/xWdCQqAJxS0

Yes, I have it on DVD; and I repeat, what's the relevance?

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Paul S Person

2019-10-23 16:24:29 UTC

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 15:26:01 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Quadibloc
Yet again, the mighty James Nicoll dazzles us with with his scintillating
sarcasm!

Perhaps you and James will have a little fun dealing with
the aftermath of your recent election.
[quote]
Justin Trudeaus Liberals have retained enough seats to govern with a
strong minority in the House of Commons as the result of a robust showing
in Ontario, bringing an end to an acrimonious campaign and ushering in
the uncertainty of a divided Parliament and a country split along
regional lines.

An undivided Parliament would be a bit worrisome. Even plain variety
majorities can and often do just steam roll the opposition
Kudos for the Conservatives for finding a way despite Liberal
scandals, and widespread dissatisfaction with failed LPC promises to
remain in opposition.
On the minus side: election in six to eighteen months. On the plus side,
I will probably work the polls again so more money for me. On the super-
plus side, the guy who blamed not getting the Conservative leadership on
a conspiracy of dairy farmers lost his seat to a dairy farmer.

I know you think "everything is worse with Libertarians,"
but arguably, from my POV, a Grits/NDP coalition could be
worse for the True North than a weak Liberal majority.
We shall see. There's always "the worse, the better."
[John Adams, among others]
Now, if we aren't careful, we'll get stuck with another
term with our artificially-faced buffoon, as opposed to
an artificially brown-faced one. Or, we could get something
even worse.
Yes, folks, we could get worse than Trump. I'm still not
voting for him.
Kevin R

Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth. Elisabeth's new federal
property tax looks scarier by the day. She will have to tax the
property and IRAs of the middle class to achieve her goals.

I don't think it would be possible for anyone to be /worse/ than
Trump, who as I write this appears to be shedding even the veneer of
sanity. And I certainly /hope/ that that is the case.

Nonetheless, Bernie and Warren would not be people I would normally
vote for at any level.

But then, I think it is time to pass the torch to the next generation.
We boomers have done enough damage.

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

James Nicoll

2019-10-23 17:25:13 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
I don't think it would be possible for anyone to be /worse/ than
Trump, who as I write this appears to be shedding even the veneer of
sanity. And I certainly /hope/ that that is the case.

Enjoy!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Solano_L%C3%B3pez

He is the President of Paraguay who picked a fight with Brazil, Argentina,
and Uruguay simultaneously. On the plus side, he managed the difficult
trick of getting Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay to agree on something.
On the minus side, that something was reducing the population of
Paraguay by half or more, with most of the dead being men. His goals
included economic protectionism, isolationism, and making Paraguay
a power to reckon with. Presumably if Paraguay had ever been great,
he might have said "Make Paraguay great again."

Quadibloc

2019-10-23 20:11:30 UTC

Post by James Nicoll
He is the President of Paraguay who picked a fight with Brazil, Argentina,
and Uruguay simultaneously. On the plus side, he managed the difficult
trick of getting Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay to agree on something.
On the minus side, that something was reducing the population of
Paraguay by half or more, with most of the dead being men. His goals
included economic protectionism, isolationism, and making Paraguay
a power to reckon with. Presumably if Paraguay had ever been great,
he might have said "Make Paraguay great again."

Of course, there is a less obscure leader who could be described as "worse than
Trump". Except for the Trump family name being changed from Drumpf to something
punchier, however, I don't see too much similarity.

Instead, Putin, who invaded Georgia to protect ethnic Russians who he claimed
were persecuted there, seems to have the greater resemblance to _that_ leader.

Trump is just his buddy who seems to think that Putin looks like a winner. So he
seems to resemble the guy who wanted to make Italy great again - apparently, he
did get as far as making their trains run on time.

Of course, with all three of the world's nuclear superpowers on the side of
EEEVIL, this is an even worse problem than global warming.

John Savard

Dorothy J Heydt

2019-10-23 22:09:16 UTC

Of course, there is a less obscure leader who could be described as "worse than
Trump". Except for the Trump family name being changed from Drumpf to something
punchier, however, I don't see too much similarity.
Instead, Putin, who invaded Georgia to protect ethnic Russians who he claimed
were persecuted there, seems to have the greater resemblance to _that_ leader.
Trump is just his buddy who seems to think that Putin looks like a winner. So he
seems to resemble the guy who wanted to make Italy great again - apparently, he
did get as far as making their trains run on time.

Actually, he didn't; his followers just insisted he had.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Lynn McGuire

2019-10-23 19:36:01 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 15:26:01 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Quadibloc
Yet again, the mighty James Nicoll dazzles us with with his scintillating
sarcasm!

An undivided Parliament would be a bit worrisome. Even plain variety
majorities can and often do just steam roll the opposition
Kudos for the Conservatives for finding a way despite Liberal
scandals, and widespread dissatisfaction with failed LPC promises to
remain in opposition.
On the minus side: election in six to eighteen months. On the plus side,
I will probably work the polls again so more money for me. On the super-
plus side, the guy who blamed not getting the Conservative leadership on
a conspiracy of dairy farmers lost his seat to a dairy farmer.

I know you think "everything is worse with Libertarians,"
but arguably, from my POV, a Grits/NDP coalition could be
worse for the True North than a weak Liberal majority.
We shall see. There's always "the worse, the better."
[John Adams, among others]
Now, if we aren't careful, we'll get stuck with another
term with our artificially-faced buffoon, as opposed to
an artificially brown-faced one. Or, we could get something
even worse.
Yes, folks, we could get worse than Trump. I'm still not
voting for him.
Kevin R

Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth. Elisabeth's new federal
property tax looks scarier by the day. She will have to tax the
property and IRAs of the middle class to achieve her goals.

I don't think it would be possible for anyone to be /worse/ than
Trump, who as I write this appears to be shedding even the veneer of
sanity. And I certainly /hope/ that that is the case.
Nonetheless, Bernie and Warren would not be people I would normally
vote for at any level.
But then, I think it is time to pass the torch to the next generation.
We boomers have done enough damage.

Obama was far worse than Trump.

Lynn

David Goldfarb

2019-10-24 06:13:45 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Obama was far worse than Trump.

Obama acted like concepts such as duty, loyalty, religion, law, and
truth meant something. To Trump, these things are all con games that
the weak play on strong men to hold them back.

--
David Goldfarb |"It's okay to disagree with me. However, once I
***@gmail.com |explain where you're wrong you're supposed to
***@ocf.berkeley.edu |become enlightened and change your mind.
|Congratulating me on how smart I am is optional."
| -- Karl Johanson

h***@gmail.com

2019-10-24 06:41:10 UTC

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by Lynn McGuire
Obama was far worse than Trump.

Obama acted like concepts such as duty, loyalty, religion, law, and
truth meant something. To Trump, these things are all con games that
the weak play on strong men to hold them back.

but he was black, and some things he wanted to do could cost Lynn money.

J. Clarke

2019-10-23 23:04:22 UTC

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 09:24:29 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 15:26:01 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Quadibloc
Yet again, the mighty James Nicoll dazzles us with with his scintillating
sarcasm!

An undivided Parliament would be a bit worrisome. Even plain variety
majorities can and often do just steam roll the opposition
Kudos for the Conservatives for finding a way despite Liberal
scandals, and widespread dissatisfaction with failed LPC promises to
remain in opposition.
On the minus side: election in six to eighteen months. On the plus side,
I will probably work the polls again so more money for me. On the super-
plus side, the guy who blamed not getting the Conservative leadership on
a conspiracy of dairy farmers lost his seat to a dairy farmer.

I know you think "everything is worse with Libertarians,"
but arguably, from my POV, a Grits/NDP coalition could be
worse for the True North than a weak Liberal majority.
We shall see. There's always "the worse, the better."
[John Adams, among others]
Now, if we aren't careful, we'll get stuck with another
term with our artificially-faced buffoon, as opposed to
an artificially brown-faced one. Or, we could get something
even worse.
Yes, folks, we could get worse than Trump. I'm still not
voting for him.
Kevin R

Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth. Elisabeth's new federal
property tax looks scarier by the day. She will have to tax the
property and IRAs of the middle class to achieve her goals.

I don't think it would be possible for anyone to be /worse/ than
Trump,

That shows a disappointing lack of imagination.

Post by Paul S Person
who as I write this appears to be shedding even the veneer of
sanity. And I certainly /hope/ that that is the case.
Nonetheless, Bernie and Warren would not be people I would normally
vote for at any level.
But then, I think it is time to pass the torch to the next generation.
We boomers have done enough damage.

Lynn McGuire

2019-10-24 00:11:01 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 09:24:29 -0700, Paul S Person

...>>> Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth. Elisabeth's new
federal

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Lynn McGuire
property tax looks scarier by the day. She will have to tax the
property and IRAs of the middle class to achieve her goals.

I don't think it would be possible for anyone to be /worse/ than
Trump,

That shows a disappointing lack of imagination.

...

Paul should live in the Ukraine under Stalin for a decade.

Lynn

Paul S Person

2019-10-24 16:32:03 UTC

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 19:11:01 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 09:24:29 -0700, Paul S Person

...>>> Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth. Elisabeth's new
federal

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Lynn McGuire
property tax looks scarier by the day. She will have to tax the
property and IRAs of the middle class to achieve her goals.

I don't think it would be possible for anyone to be /worse/ than
Trump,

That shows a disappointing lack of imagination.

...
Paul should live in the Ukraine under Stalin for a decade.

Sadly, that is impossible.

And Trump hasn't finished his first term yet.

Who can say? The worst may be yet to come!

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Quadibloc

2019-10-24 16:30:54 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 09:24:29 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 15:26:01 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire
Worse than Trump would be Bernie or Elizabeth. Elisabeth's new federal
property tax looks scarier by the day. She will have to tax the
property and IRAs of the middle class to achieve her goals.

I don't think it would be possible for anyone to be /worse/ than
Trump,

That shows a disappointing lack of imagination.

Surely he's heard of Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Kim Jong Il...

Rather than a lack of imagination, I would blame incorrect phrasing.

Perhaps he meant

"I don't think anyone /worse/ than Trump is going to become President of the
United States, ever"

which _is_ a plausible, or at least reasonable, statement.

Particularly given a new book I just heard about:

All the President's Women: Donald Trump and the Making of a Predator
by Barry Levine and Monique El-Faizy

In a perfect world, this would be reason enough for a successful impeachment
proceeding, but Brett Kavanaugh has already disproved that...

Of course, he seems to have gotten off on a good start for bringing peace in the
Middle East, if the names of that book's co-authors are any guide...

John Savard

Quadibloc

2019-10-24 16:54:25 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
Of course, he seems to have gotten off on a good start for bringing peace in
the Middle East, if the names of that book's co-authors are any guide...

Oh, dear.

The thought just ocurred to me that Donald Trump actually _could_ bring peace to
the Middle East. And get America out of the "endless wars" of that region for
good.

By treating the Jews of Israel the way he treated the Kurds of Syria.

In that case, the names Drumpf and Hiedler might actually have something in
common...

The old quote about "enough to start again" comes to mind.

John Savard

Quadibloc

2019-10-24 18:23:01 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
The old quote about "enough to start again" comes to mind.

The quote I was thinking of went something like this:

In the Holocaust, six million Jews died. In Israel, there are (at the time of
the quote) four million Jews. If Israel is defeated (and, therefore, they are
also exterminated), there will not be enough to start over/again.

With my best efforts, however, I could not find this once-famous quote with the
aid of Google.

John Savard

Lynn McGuire

2019-10-24 18:35:40 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
The old quote about "enough to start again" comes to mind.

In the Holocaust, six million Jews died. In Israel, there are (at the time of
the quote) four million Jews. If Israel is defeated (and, therefore, they are
also exterminated), there will not be enough to start over/again.
With my best efforts, however, I could not find this once-famous quote with the
aid of Google.
John Savard

There are several million Jews in the USA and Canada.

If Israel is defeated in the middle east then nobody will live there due
to the radioactivity. At any given moment, two to four Israeli missile
subs are cruising the Med. Each sub carries up to sixteen 200 kton
nuclear missiles. This is addition to the 300+ nuclear weapons such as
the Jericho missiles, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin-class_submarine

Lynn

Robert Carnegie

2019-10-24 23:33:20 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
The old quote about "enough to start again" comes to mind.

There are several million Jews in the USA and Canada.
If Israel is defeated in the middle east then nobody will live there due
to the radioactivity. At any given moment, two to four Israeli missile
subs are cruising the Med. Each sub carries up to sixteen 200 kton
nuclear missiles. This is addition to the 300+ nuclear weapons such as
the Jericho missiles, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin-class_submarine
Lynn

Isn't that still unofficial? I haven't been keeping up.

J. Clarke

2019-10-24 23:50:27 UTC

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 16:33:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie

Post by Quadibloc
The old quote about "enough to start again" comes to mind.

There are several million Jews in the USA and Canada.
If Israel is defeated in the middle east then nobody will live there due
to the radioactivity. At any given moment, two to four Israeli missile
subs are cruising the Med. Each sub carries up to sixteen 200 kton
nuclear missiles. This is addition to the 300+ nuclear weapons such as
the Jericho missiles, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin-class_submarine
Lynn

Isn't that still unofficial? I haven't been keeping up.

Everything about the Israeli nuclear-weapons program is "unofficial".
But only a fool thinks that they don't have them.

Paul S Person

2019-10-25 17:05:58 UTC

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 16:33:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie

Post by Quadibloc
The old quote about "enough to start again" comes to mind.

There are several million Jews in the USA and Canada.
If Israel is defeated in the middle east then nobody will live there due
to the radioactivity. At any given moment, two to four Israeli missile
subs are cruising the Med. Each sub carries up to sixteen 200 kton
nuclear missiles. This is addition to the 300+ nuclear weapons such as
the Jericho missiles, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin-class_submarine
Lynn

Isn't that still unofficial? I haven't been keeping up.

"Unofficial" isn't the same as "not real".

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Paul S Person

2019-10-25 17:07:44 UTC

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 13:35:40 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Quadibloc
The old quote about "enough to start again" comes to mind.

There are several million Jews in the USA and Canada.
If Israel is defeated in the middle east then nobody will live there due
to the radioactivity. At any given moment, two to four Israeli missile
subs are cruising the Med. Each sub carries up to sixteen 200 kton
nuclear missiles. This is addition to the 300+ nuclear weapons such as
the Jericho missiles, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin-class_submarine

And I would suspect that Mecca, Medina and at least one of the Holy
Cities in Iran will be ... dust. Particular if Jerusalem is nuked.

But these are very nasty possibilities. The rest of the world might
well go down the same path as a result.

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

J. Clarke

2019-10-24 23:46:31 UTC

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 11:23:01 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc
The old quote about "enough to start again" comes to mind.

You seem to be unaware that there are more Jews in the US than in
Israel.

Post by Quadibloc
With my best efforts, however, I could not find this once-famous quote with the
aid of Google.
John Savard

Quadibloc

2019-10-25 00:34:02 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
You seem to be unaware that there are more Jews in the US than in
Israel.

That may still not be "enough to start over", because what proportion of the
Jews in the United States would be interested in leaving it for a Zionist
project?

But in any case, I was looking for a quote: someone else had said that, I was
noting; I was not saying it.

John Savard

Paul S Person

2019-10-25 17:09:40 UTC

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 11:23:01 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc
The old quote about "enough to start again" comes to mind.

Famous in what circles? Alt-right, perhaps?

Take a good, long look at the end of /Schindler's List/ and consider
the reality of human reproductive capabilities.

Post by Quadibloc
With my best efforts, however, I could not find this once-famous quote with the
aid of Google.

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

J. Clarke

2019-10-24 23:44:48 UTC

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 09:54:25 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc
Of course, he seems to have gotten off on a good start for bringing peace in
the Middle East, if the names of that book's co-authors are any guide...

Little tiny difference there. The Kurds don't have a modern military
or nuclear weapons. Israel makes their own equipment that is as good
as any in the world.

Post by Quadibloc
In that case, the names Drumpf and Hiedler might actually have something in
common...
The old quote about "enough to start again" comes to mind.
John Savard

Quadibloc

2019-10-25 00:35:40 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
Little tiny difference there. The Kurds don't have a modern military
or nuclear weapons. Israel makes their own equipment that is as good
as any in the world.

Israel, like Britain and France, has some ability to defend itself without the United States. Whether or not that will be enough is not clear.

John Savard

Lynn McGuire

2019-10-25 01:07:16 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
Little tiny difference there. The Kurds don't have a modern military
or nuclear weapons. Israel makes their own equipment that is as good
as any in the world.

Israel, like Britain and France, has some ability to defend itself without the United States. Whether or not that will be enough is not clear.
John Savard

Do you know how many wars that Israel has successfully defended itself
from it's neighbors ? Several starting with the 1948 war. It was only
the 1973 war where they loaded two nukes onto each of four planes and
took off for Cairo. Golda Meir then called Richard Nixon and said that
Israel are going to destroy them before they destroy Israel. Nixon said
wait and sent in the entire US Air Force squadrons from Germany, the
pilots landed their planes and walked to a USA destroyer in the Tel Aviv
harbor. Nixon also air lifted tanks and ammo into Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nickel_Grass

That was cheap compared to dealing with an estimated ten million dead in
Cairo.

My uncle spent his last year in the Navy as an A-4 flight instructor in
Israel in 1968 ???. He was invited back in 2018 for a get together.
Four ??? of the pilots he trained out of 30 ??? were still alive.

Lynn

Quadibloc

2019-10-25 04:07:48 UTC

Without help from the United States, Israel might have to use its nuclear weapons.

What if Russia and/or China then respond with theirs? If America is out of this equation, why not?

John Savard

J. Clarke

2019-10-25 11:07:50 UTC

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 21:07:48 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc
Without help from the United States, Israel might have to use its nuclear weapons.
What if Russia and/or China then respond with theirs? If America is out of this equation, why not?

Because they don't want to eat nukes?

Post by Quadibloc
John Savard

Paul S Person

2019-10-25 17:12:07 UTC

On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 07:07:50 -0400, J. Clarke

Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 21:07:48 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Because they don't want to eat nukes?

Ah, but that's the point.

Do we have a President who will make his "good friends" eat nukes?
Under any circumstances?

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Paul S Person

2019-10-25 17:04:09 UTC

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 09:30:54 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 09:24:29 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 15:26:01 -0500, Lynn McGuire

I don't think it would be possible for anyone to be /worse/ than
Trump,

That shows a disappointing lack of imagination.

Surely he's heard of Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Kim Jong Il...

In Roman history, there is at /least/ one Emperor who removed a
no-longer-convenient subordinate the same way Adolf removed the head
of the SA (IIRC, which I may not) -- by inviting him into the
Presence, thus taking him off his guard, and then killing him.

The /only/ difference between the Roman Empire and a totalitarian
state is /technological/. The endless laws requiring sons to follow in
their fathers footsteps were an attempt at controlling the economy,
and, as I believe Durant pointed out, their very repetition shows
their ineffectiveness.

You are confusing what what a person /is/ and what he will inevitably
/do/ if he can with what a state is organized to allow him to /do/.

Post by Quadibloc
Rather than a lack of imagination, I would blame incorrect phrasing.
Perhaps he meant
"I don't think anyone /worse/ than Trump is going to become President of the
United States, ever"
which _is_ a plausible, or at least reasonable, statement.

A perfectly reasonable interpretation. But the one does not exclude
the other.

Post by Quadibloc
All the President's Women: Donald Trump and the Making of a Predator
by Barry Levine and Monique El-Faizy
In a perfect world, this would be reason enough for a successful impeachment
proceeding, but Brett Kavanaugh has already disproved that...
Of course, he seems to have gotten off on a good start for bringing peace in the
Middle East, if the names of that book's co-authors are any guide...

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

m***@sky.com

2019-10-25 18:37:34 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 09:30:54 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 09:24:29 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 15:26:01 -0500, Lynn McGuire

I don't think it would be possible for anyone to be /worse/ than
Trump,

That shows a disappointing lack of imagination.

Surely he's heard of Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Kim Jong Il...

In Roman history, there is at /least/ one Emperor who removed a
no-longer-convenient subordinate the same way Adolf removed the head
of the SA (IIRC, which I may not) -- by inviting him into the
Presence, thus taking him off his guard, and then killing him.
The /only/ difference between the Roman Empire and a totalitarian
state is /technological/. The endless laws requiring sons to follow in
their fathers footsteps were an attempt at controlling the economy,
and, as I believe Durant pointed out, their very repetition shows
their ineffectiveness.
You are confusing what what a person /is/ and what he will inevitably
/do/ if he can with what a state is organized to allow him to /do/.

(trimmed)
National socialism and communism were explicitly totalitarian as part of their ideology - the party becomes a parallel authority in every part of life. To the extent that there was a Roman totalitarianism as part of their ideology, it was a negative suspicion of non-state organizations as conspiracies, and not an ideology of state control: indeed freedom was at least theoretically valued, and might have been possible to some extent under e.g. Marcus Aurelius. I will concede the various laws attempting to control prices and then careers, but, unlike Hitler and Stalin, the Romans did not have the opportunity of learning from Adam Smith.

Robert Carnegie

2019-10-24 23:47:30 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
I don't think it would be possible for anyone to be /worse/ than
Trump,

Every vice-president's job description is to make
people hope that the president stays well.

Maybe not Cheney; that was a weird situation.

The lesson of 2016 for the Democrats is that the
21st century is too soon to have a female candidate.

Paul S Person

2019-10-25 17:16:13 UTC

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 16:47:30 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie

Post by Paul S Person
I don't think it would be possible for anyone to be /worse/ than
Trump,

Every vice-president's job description is to make
people hope that the president stays well.

Then Pence isn't doing a very good job.

A responsible, but effective President, would be better for the
country than an irresponsible, but ineffective, one.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Maybe not Cheney; that was a weird situation.

You refer, of course, to Vice President Haliburton -- a wholly owned
subsidiary of an American corporation.

The lesson of 2016 for the Democrats is that the
21st century is too soon to have a female candidate.

I don't think so.

A female candidate who thinks "campaigning" means flying to
firmly-supportive areas to meet rich people willing to donate money
while ignoring everybody else, yes.

A female candidate who actually /campaigns/ for the office might be a
different story.

But, please, God, not Warren.

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Dimensional Traveler

2019-10-22 22:02:18 UTC

Post by James Nicoll
On the minus side: election in six to eighteen months. On the plus side,
I will probably work the polls again so more money for me. On the super-
plus side, the guy who blamed not getting the Conservative leadership on
a conspiracy of dairy farmers lost his seat to a dairy farmer.

Thereby proving he was right?

--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"

Robert Woodward

2019-10-23 04:38:40 UTC

<snip, re: Canada election results digression >

Are you sure that there wasn't a conspiracy of dairy farmers?

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com

James Nicoll

2019-10-23 14:36:15 UTC

Post by Robert Woodward
<snip, re: Canada election results digression >

Are you sure that there wasn't a conspiracy of dairy farmers?

More a conspiracy of voters who preferred someone else.

William Hyde

2019-10-23 21:37:18 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
Yet again, the mighty James Nicoll dazzles us with with his scintillating
sarcasm!

Perhaps you and James will have a little fun dealing with
the aftermath of your recent election.

You seem to think this is an unusual situation. It is not.

In my lifetime alone we've had four Liberal and five conservative minority governments. Liberal minorities, with tacit NDP support, tend to be our best governments.

The oil and gas industry, true to form, has failed to recognize that Trudeau with a majority was the best friend they were likely to have in the PM's office. Now that he depends on the NDP for support, his environmental policy will perforce get much greener. The carbon tax is a sure thing now, for example.

The trans-mountain pipeline will go through, though. The NDP is against it but the Liberals can't go back on this one. If the NDP calls it a deal breaker ... we'll have another election. In which the NDP will probably do far, far, worse as nobody wants another hideously long 40 day campaign. The horror! The Horror!

Business as usual, in other words.

William Hyde

James Nicoll

2019-10-23 22:45:41 UTC

(...) nobody wants another hideously long 40
day campaign. The horror! The Horror!

Could be worse. Harper for some reason opted for an eleven week election
process, unhumanly long, for which he was rewarded with a crushing defeat.
Maybe he was hoping voters would become fatigued by endless election stuff
and just stay home.

Quadibloc

2019-10-24 06:24:13 UTC

Post by James Nicoll
Could be worse. Harper for some reason opted for an eleven week election
process, unhumanly long, for which he was rewarded with a crushing defeat.
Maybe he was hoping voters would become fatigued by endless election stuff
and just stay home.

And here I thought that many voters had turned against Stephen Harper for the
same reason I did: while admiring his spirited defense of the Ukraine, he had
crossed the line when he presumed to interfere with the ability of scientists to
communicate their findings, in order to hamper our understanding of
anthropogenic climate change for political purposes.

Politicians should not presume to give orders to scientists.

Perhaps we will need to change our political system to formalize this. We
wouldn't have any wars if all the world's governments were strictly subordinate
to the Science Council of Earth.

John Savard

J. Clarke

2019-10-24 23:51:38 UTC

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 23:24:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

And here I thought that many voters had turned against Stephen Harper for the
same reason I did: while admiring his spirited defense of the Ukraine, he had
crossed the line when he presumed to interfere with the ability of scientists to
communicate their findings, in order to hamper our understanding of
anthropogenic climate change for political purposes.
Politicians should not presume to give orders to scientists.
Perhaps we will need to change our political system to formalize this. We
wouldn't have any wars if all the world's governments were strictly subordinate
to the Science Council of Earth.

Until the revolution. Scientists do not have a good track record as
government.

Kevrob

2019-10-24 23:56:25 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 23:24:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

And here I thought that many voters had turned against Stephen Harper for the
same reason I did: while admiring his spirited defense of the Ukraine, he had
crossed the line when he presumed to interfere with the ability of scientists to
communicate their findings, in order to hamper our understanding of
anthropogenic climate change for political purposes.
Politicians should not presume to give orders to scientists.
Perhaps we will need to change our political system to formalize this. We
wouldn't have any wars if all the world's governments were strictly subordinate
to the Science Council of Earth.

Until the revolution. Scientists do not have a good track record as
government.

What are you talking about? When the Science Council of Krypton ended
its final term, war on that planet was completely eliminated!

{Of course, so was the planet....}

Kevin R

Quadibloc

2019-10-25 04:12:53 UTC

Post by Kevrob
What are you talking about? When the Science Council of Krypton ended
its final term, war on that planet was completely eliminated!
{Of course, so was the planet....}

They weren't responsible for that. What they _were_ responsible for was
hindering Jor-El in making preparations for an evacuation of the planet.

However, war had been eliminated on Krypton _long_ before its untimely end.
Unfortunately, they still had terrorists and revolutionaries who sought to
overthrow Krypton's democracy, like Jax-Ur, Kil-Lor, and General Zod, but
warfare between competing states was something in Krypton's distant past.

John Savard

Kevrob

2019-10-25 12:12:14 UTC

Post by Kevrob
What are you talking about? When the Science Council of Krypton ended
its final term, war on that planet was completely eliminated!
{Of course, so was the planet....}

They weren't responsible for that. What they _were_ responsible for was
hindering Jor-El in making preparations for an evacuation of the planet.

As usual, one has to qualify which version of Superman.
There have been so many recons and alternate universes.

Post by Quadibloc
However, war had been eliminated on Krypton _long_ before its untimely end.
Unfortunately, they still had terrorists and revolutionaries who sought to
overthrow Krypton's democracy, like Jax-Ur, Kil-Lor, and General Zod, but
warfare between competing states was something in Krypton's distant past.

Don't forget that Mala had been a councilor.

http://supermanica.superman.nu/index.php/Mala

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/superman-65-the-3-supermen-from-krypton/4000-121748/

Kevin R

Quadibloc

2019-10-25 14:58:16 UTC

Post by Kevrob
As usual, one has to qualify which version of Superman.
There have been so many recons and alternate universes.

True. With me, it's classic Weisinger all the way.

John Savard

Lynn McGuire

2019-10-25 01:08:58 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 23:24:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

And here I thought that many voters had turned against Stephen Harper for the
same reason I did: while admiring his spirited defense of the Ukraine, he had
crossed the line when he presumed to interfere with the ability of scientists to
communicate their findings, in order to hamper our understanding of
anthropogenic climate change for political purposes.
Politicians should not presume to give orders to scientists.
Perhaps we will need to change our political system to formalize this. We
wouldn't have any wars if all the world's governments were strictly subordinate
to the Science Council of Earth.

Until the revolution. Scientists do not have a good track record as
government.

Do we have any countries in the world where the scientists ran place ?

Lynn

Quadibloc

2019-10-25 04:14:42 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Do we have any countries in the world where the scientists ran place ?

Not that I am aware. However, sometimes it is proposed in utopian science fiction.

Although I wouldn't quite call "Things to Come" by H. G. Wells a Utopia, the one
example _other_ than the Superman comic book that comes to mind.

John Savard

m***@sky.com

2019-10-25 04:37:45 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 23:24:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

And here I thought that many voters had turned against Stephen Harper for the
same reason I did: while admiring his spirited defense of the Ukraine, he had
crossed the line when he presumed to interfere with the ability of scientists to
communicate their findings, in order to hamper our understanding of
anthropogenic climate change for political purposes.
Politicians should not presume to give orders to scientists.
Perhaps we will need to change our political system to formalize this. We
wouldn't have any wars if all the world's governments were strictly subordinate
to the Science Council of Earth.

Until the revolution. Scientists do not have a good track record as
government.

Do we have any countries in the world where the scientists ran place ?
Lynn

There have been a number of countries where education was very heavily biased towards engineering and science, so many politicians had at least a science-based education. China is probably the most prominent example, with many of its elite having some sort of engineering qualification. The Wikipedia entry for President Xi lists about four years at least theoretically studying engineering, in an upbringing dominated by the warring influences of being born into the elite and then living through the cultural revolution. Clicking through various related entries I find some engineers and some law+economics educations, amongst those whose educations weren't entirely disrupted by war or cultural revolution.

Years ago my English teacher (who had worked in Uganda under Hasting Banda) said that Uganda was unusual among African countries in having a liberal arts focus to their education system instead of the usual science and engineering focus for the education system available to the elites.

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2019-10-25 04:44:46 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 23:24:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

And here I thought that many voters had turned against Stephen

Harper for the

Post by Quadibloc
same reason I did: while admiring his spirited defense of the

Ukraine, he had

Post by Quadibloc
crossed the line when he presumed to interfere with the ability of

scientists to

Post by Quadibloc
communicate their findings, in order to hamper our understanding of
anthropogenic climate change for political purposes.
Politicians should not presume to give orders to scientists.
Perhaps we will need to change our political system to formalize this. We
wouldn't have any wars if all the world's governments were strictly

subordinate

Post by Quadibloc
to the Science Council of Earth.

Until the revolution. Scientists do not have a good track record as
government.

Do we have any countries in the world where the scientists ran place ?
Lynn

There have been a number of countries where education was very heavily
biased towards engineering and science, so many politicians had at least
a science-based education. China is probably the most prominent example,
with many of its elite having some sort of engineering qualification.
The Wikipedia entry for President Xi lists about four years at least
theoretically studying engineering, in an upbringing dominated by the
warring influences of being born into the elite and then living through
the cultural revolution. Clicking through various related entries I find
some engineers and some law+economics educations, amongst those whose
educations weren't entirely disrupted by war or cultural revolution.
Years ago my English teacher (who had worked in Uganda under Hasting
Banda) said that Uganda was unusual among African countries in having a
liberal arts focus to their education system instead of the usual
science and engineering focus for the education system available to the
elites.

I believe Thatcher was a chemist, and Hoover an engineer. Jefferson was
an inventor

--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

m***@sky.com

2019-10-25 18:21:32 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 23:24:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

And here I thought that many voters had turned against Stephen

Harper for the

Post by Quadibloc
same reason I did: while admiring his spirited defense of the

Ukraine, he had

Post by Quadibloc
crossed the line when he presumed to interfere with the ability of

scientists to

subordinate

Post by Quadibloc
to the Science Council of Earth.

Until the revolution. Scientists do not have a good track record as
government.

Do we have any countries in the world where the scientists ran place ?
Lynn

There have been a number of countries where education was very heavily
biased towards engineering and science, so many politicians had at least
a science-based education. China is probably the most prominent example,
with many of its elite having some sort of engineering qualification.
The Wikipedia entry for President Xi lists about four years at least
theoretically studying engineering, in an upbringing dominated by the
warring influences of being born into the elite and then living through
the cultural revolution. Clicking through various related entries I find
some engineers and some law+economics educations, amongst those whose
educations weren't entirely disrupted by war or cultural revolution.
Years ago my English teacher (who had worked in Uganda under Hasting
Banda) said that Uganda was unusual among African countries in having a
liberal arts focus to their education system instead of the usual
science and engineering focus for the education system available to the
elites.

I believe Thatcher was a chemist, and Hoover an engineer. Jefferson was
an inventor
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

To which we could probably add a few other individuals, such as Jimmy Carter (Nuclear Engineering) and Eamon deValera (mathematics) - but an enthusiast for a Science council might argue that no single individual can change the attitude of an organisation by themselves. I think that China and developing countries trying to emphasize technology are more worrying for those who believe that we could be governed much better by a government of trained scientists.

Paul S Person

2019-10-25 17:17:38 UTC

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 19:51:38 -0400, J. Clarke

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 23:24:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

And here I thought that many voters had turned against Stephen Harper for the
same reason I did: while admiring his spirited defense of the Ukraine, he had
crossed the line when he presumed to interfere with the ability of scientists to
communicate their findings, in order to hamper our understanding of
anthropogenic climate change for political purposes.
Politicians should not presume to give orders to scientists.
Perhaps we will need to change our political system to formalize this. We
wouldn't have any wars if all the world's governments were strictly subordinate
to the Science Council of Earth.

Until the revolution. Scientists do not have a good track record as
government.

The film version of /Things to Come/ being a good case-in-point.

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

William Hyde

2019-10-24 18:48:47 UTC

(...) nobody wants another hideously long 40
day campaign. The horror! The Horror!

Could be worse. Harper for some reason opted for an eleven week election
process, unhumanly long, for which he was rewarded with a crushing defeat.

The principal reason for that was that the conservatives had more money (1). The hope was that the other parties would not be able to campaign effectively over such a long period.

It was his second best display of a deep contempt for democracy. Or maybe third now.

(1) But IIRC liberal donors coughed up a lot more money than he expected.

Post by James Nicoll
Maybe he was hoping voters would become fatigued by endless election stuff
and just stay home.

I think so. He never understood how deeply he was hated, to the point that lifetime NDP voters went liberal just to be sure they'd be rid of him.

Or as Konrad Yakabuski - a conservative globe columnist with whom I rarely agree - said today: "The stench of Harper still lingers" (paraphrased, but "stench of Harper" was in there).

William Hyde

Quadibloc

2019-10-24 06:20:58 UTC

Post by William Hyde
nobody wants another hideously long 40 day campaign.

What, nobody wants any *more* exciting revelations about Justin Trudeau's
youthful indiscretions?

I happened to be at a friends place watching CBC election night coverage. At one
point, one of the hosts referred to "40 days and 40 nights of a gruelling
election campaign".

For some reason, I thought about waiting for the sewers to back up.

John Savard

Paul S Person

2019-10-24 16:34:20 UTC

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 23:20:58 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by William Hyde
nobody wants another hideously long 40 day campaign.

What, nobody wants any *more* exciting revelations about Justin Trudeau's
youthful indiscretions?
I happened to be at a friends place watching CBC election night coverage. At one
point, one of the hosts referred to "40 days and 40 nights of a gruelling
election campaign".

How ... Biblical!

But was it intentionally so?

Post by Quadibloc
For some reason, I thought about waiting for the sewers to back up.
John Savard

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Quadibloc

2019-10-24 16:57:36 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
How ... Biblical!
But was it intentionally so?

Oh, it certainly could have been just a Freudian slip.

Oh, and in case anyone missed my reference,

although, of course, given what we've learned about this comedian recently, he
belongs in a sewer...

John Savard

James Nicoll

2019-10-25 13:38:18 UTC

Post by William Hyde

Post by Quadibloc
Yet again, the mighty James Nicoll dazzles us with with his scintillating
sarcasm!

Perhaps you and James will have a little fun dealing with
the aftermath of your recent election.

At least this particular minority government has a single plausible
ally with enough seats that between them they can pass stuff provided
they can come to terms with each other. Unlike 2006, say. Or 2004.

David Johnston

2019-10-25 05:45:53 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
Yet again, the mighty James Nicoll dazzles us with with his scintillating
sarcasm!

Perhaps you and James will have a little fun dealing with
the aftermath of your recent election.
[quote]
Justin Trudeau’s Liberals have retained enough seats to govern with a
strong minority in the House of Commons as the result of a robust showing
in Ontario, bringing an end to an acrimonious campaign and ushering in
the uncertainty of a divided Parliament and a country split alongThe
regional lines.
The Liberals face significant challenges as they enter their second
mandate: They won the most seats in the House, but lost the popular
vote to the Conservatives. About 6.2-million Canadian voters – or 34.4
per cent – chose Mr. Scheer’s party over the 5.9-million voters – or
33.1 – cent – who opted for Mr. Trudeau’s Liberals. They were shut out
in Alberta and Saskatchewan.
[/quote]
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-federal-election-liberals-reelected-minority-government-trudeau/
Good luck with that!
Kevin R

The upcoming redistricting should correct the imbalance in
representation somewhat.

Quadibloc

2019-10-22 20:45:14 UTC

SPOILER WARNING

Haven't seen

the book,

have seen

reviews and

comments on

reviews with

SPOILERS!

.

.

.

.

.

.

Apparently I was partly right, but I had it backwards.

Vivian Liao is wrenched into the future by a glowing green thing that looks like the Empress.

She spends a lot of the book fighting in the rebellion against the Empress.

Kirkuk Reviews: Readers will figure out her connection to the Empress before she does.

Spoiler comment: like Anakin, or food left too long in the refrigerator, she goes bad.

SPOILER CONCLUSION:

Yes, the Empress is Vivian Liao's future self. But instead of rebels bringing her to
the future to make her good, either the Empress wants to lift herself by her own
bootstraps, or she regrets she didn't turn to the dark side sooner, and aims to fix that.

Messing with time tends to go badly. So she ends up the agent of her own downfall.

John Savard

Robert Carnegie

2019-10-22 22:42:56 UTC

Mainly I'm intrigued by the reference to "Kirkuk Reviews",
but I presume that's not what you meant to write.

Dud you notice this review?
<https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/you-should-see-me-in-a-crown>
Itself with fewer spoilers than in the comments on it,
or on James's 'Dreamwidth" page for it. Although
I /think/ "sf remake of The Wizard of Oz" was a bad
guess - although, flying monkeys.........

Quadibloc

2019-10-22 22:45:22 UTC

Post by Robert Carnegie
Mainly I'm intrigued by the reference to "Kirkuk Reviews",
but I presume that's not what you meant to write.

Kirkus Reviews, of course. Yes, a typo. Didn't notice it happening on my mobile
phone.

John Savard

Quadibloc

2019-10-22 22:50:19 UTC

Post by Robert Carnegie
Although
I /think/ "sf remake of The Wizard of Oz" was a bad
guess - although, flying monkeys.........

I had not seen that review.

After the Wizard of Oz comment, there was another comment saying that the plot was
bumpy because the book was an intentional homage to Journey to the West, so one
would expect another kind of monkey in it...

John Savard

-dsr-

2019-10-23 18:59:58 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
SPOILER WARNING
Yes, the Empress is Vivian Liao's future self. But instead of rebels bringing her to
the future to make her good, either the Empress wants to lift herself by her own
bootstraps, or she regrets she didn't turn to the dark side sooner, and aims to fix that.
Messing with time tends to go badly. So she ends up the agent of her own downfall.

Nope, that's not it either.

-dsr-

Dorothy J Heydt

2019-10-23 22:13:09 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
SPOILER WARNING
Yes, the Empress is Vivian Liao's future self. But instead of rebels

bringing her to

Post by Quadibloc
the future to make her good, either the Empress wants to lift herself

by her own

Post by Quadibloc
bootstraps, or she regrets she didn't turn to the dark side sooner,

and aims to fix that.

Post by Quadibloc
Messing with time tends to go badly. So she ends up the agent of her

own downfall.
Nope, that's not it either.

Well, I haven't read the work under discussion, and am not likely
to. But I'm suddenly reminded of the opening of Book One of
_Girl Genius_, wherein Agatha sees a vision of her future self
and of a ... clank, I guess, whom we have not seen since and who
must be still to come. Who is THAT, I wait eagerly to learn.
(But since I'm told the Foglios have said GG will continue till
their kids are out of high school, I foresee a considerable
wait.)

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Robert Woodward

2019-10-24 05:24:46 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
SPOILER WARNING
Yes, the Empress is Vivian Liao's future self. But instead of rebels

bringing her to

Post by Quadibloc
the future to make her good, either the Empress wants to lift herself

by her own

Post by Quadibloc
bootstraps, or she regrets she didn't turn to the dark side sooner,

and aims to fix that.

Post by Quadibloc
Messing with time tends to go badly. So she ends up the agent of her

own downfall.
Nope, that's not it either.

They have been married for over 20 years; just how old are the children?

-dsr-

2019-10-23 18:58:10 UTC

Post by j***@panix.com
Science Fictional Rulers, from Undying Emperors to Starlike Sovereigns
https://www.tor.com/2019/10/22/science-fictional-rulers-from-undying-emperors-to-starlike-sovereigns/

As for the last novel mentioned: I haven't seen it. But based on your
description, it would not surprise me if the supreme ruler of the future age is
Vivian Liao's alternate-future self: the premise being that rebels with a time
machine decided to do a ghost-of-Christmas-future thingy with their dictator
just before she gained power, to show her what a nightmare it became, and
prevent their present... but they hadn't counted on her getting noticed.
And so the supreme ruler needs to send her back, but erase her memory first, to
prevent the time paradox that would unseat her.
Maybe this book will not resort to such a tired old science-fiction cliche as
this (original in the ring-the-changes sense, but that's about it) however.

No, but if you had only read the first two chapters that would be a
plausible hypothesis.

-dsr-

D B Davis

2019-10-25 13:38:52 UTC

Post by j***@panix.com
Science Fictional Rulers, from Undying Emperors to Starlike Sovereigns
https://www.tor.com/2019/10/22/science-fictional-rulers-from-undying-emperors-to-starlike-sovereigns/

Yet again, the mighty James Nicoll dazzles us with with his scintillating
sarcasm!
There's nothing wrong with sarcasm, I employ it on occasion myself, but I've
noticed that it played a central role in the last few columns mentioned here. If
you always say the opposite of what you mean, eventually people will start
getting confused.
As for the last novel mentioned: I haven't seen it. But based on your
description, it would not surprise me if the supreme ruler of the future age is
Vivian Liao's alternate-future self: the premise being that rebels with a time
machine decided to do a ghost-of-Christmas-future thingy with their dictator
just before she gained power, to show her what a nightmare it became, and
prevent their present... but they hadn't counted on her getting noticed.
And so the supreme ruler needs to send her back, but erase her memory first, to
prevent the time paradox that would unseat her.
Maybe this book will not resort to such a tired old science-fiction cliche as
this (original in the ring-the-changes sense, but that's about it) however.

James' review was nearly passed over by me, until you alerted me to the
sarcastic lulz within. ¡Muchas gracias!

spoiler space

The _Continuum_ show spawns lots of fanfiction. [1] The show's central
premise is that of a controlling old man named Alec Sadler, a business
tycoon along the lines of Steve Jobs or Elon Musk, who regrets his past
decisions and wants to change things.

Older Alec Sadler:
I speak to you not as who you'll become, but as an old
man who knows you best. You and I were given a gift
from our father. He died young, but he imparted in us
a passion for technology and innovation. What you need
to know, what I tried to do... Listen to me carefully,
Alec: I have gone down a dangerous path and I have
taken the world with me. Only you can prevent this
future from happening. [2]

He wants to excise his own timeline, in other words.

Excising is what you do when you bounce back and talk
yourself out of something - when you go back and undo a
mistake. [3]

Plutocrat Alec Sadler outsources his excise to a group of others; an odd
decision that exponentially increases the probability of unintended
consequences. Perhaps older Sadler doesn't feel that his worn out body
can survive the trip.
A terrorist cell named Liber8, a couple of cops known as Protectors,
and Sadler's son are sent back into time. It happens during the group
public execution of the Liber8 cell. At least one member of the cell is
sanctioned to kill young Alec Sadler if all else fails. Some of the time
travelers are sent back unawares, without the benefit of a prior
briefing. Some belong to a shadowy free-lancer cell; travelers aware of
the existential multi-verse who police their own 'verse to protect the
continuum itself.
That last statement is a paradox. When you travel through time you
potentially become part of the problem rather than the solution. Time
travelers threaten the continuum.
It all feels so mystical. Did we just bump up against Ouspensky's
six dimensions of time yet again? It's easy to comprehend five
dimensions of time (three spacial dimensions, arrow of time, decision
tree). It's the sixth dimension that causes conceptional difficulty.

Note.

[1] https://www.fanfiction.net/tv/Continuum/
[2] https://www.quotes.net/movies/continuum_101293
[3] _The Man Who Folded Himself_ (Gerrold)

☮

Thank you,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

Garrett Wollman

2019-10-22 21:46:50 UTC

Post by j***@panix.com
Science Fictional Rulers, from Undying Emperors to Starlike Sovereigns
https://www.tor.com/2019/10/22/science-fictional-rulers-from-undying-emperors-to-starlike-sovereigns/

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2019-10-22 21:53:14 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by j***@panix.com
Science Fictional Rulers, from Undying Emperors to Starlike Sovereigns
https://www.tor.com/2019/10/22/science-fictional-rulers-from-undying-emperors-to-starlike-sovereigns/

Well, smoothly functioning parliaments don't make for good plot complications..

How about _Double Star_. It's been a long time, but didn't the system
work OK modulo having to replace a key guy with an actor?

--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

p***@hotmail.com

2019-10-22 22:41:22 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by j***@panix.com
Science Fictional Rulers, from Undying Emperors to Starlike Sovereigns
https://www.tor.com/2019/10/22/science-fictional-rulers-from-undying-emperors-to-starlike-sovereigns/

Well, smoothly functioning parliaments don't make for good plot complications..
How about _Double Star_. It's been a long time, but didn't the system
work OK modulo having to replace a key guy with an actor?

One factor in this was that, in learning to act like Bonforte even in
unscripted settings, Lorenzo tried to understand Bonforte's basic
philosophy. In so doing Lorenzo realized that he shared that philosophy.
For example, "the show must go on" was a principle that Lorenzo had
learned from his father and lived by himself; he now saw that it was
a particular case of Bonforte's policy of fair dealings with all beings.
I do not get the impression that Bonforte's team had the luxury of
being able to screen for political philosophy in finding an actor
who could impersonate him.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

m***@sky.com

2019-10-23 04:34:31 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by j***@panix.com
Science Fictional Rulers, from Undying Emperors to Starlike Sovereigns
https://www.tor.com/2019/10/22/science-fictional-rulers-from-undying-emperors-to-starlike-sovereigns/

Like one of the commenters, I too would like to see more examples of
democratic sfnal societies with parliaments that actually function.
I don't remember enough of Julian May's Galactic Milieu to recall how
the government functioned, other than that the Human Polity's capital
was (New) Concord, New Hampshire, thanks to contingency.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

The parliamentary system in the Honorverse appears to function reasonably well, with about the same balance of power as the UK during the Napoleonic Wars.

"Actually function" is not necessarily true to life. In the UK at the moment we have had years of gridlock, due to having MPs elected after a referendum with a mandate to leave the EU, which a large number of MPs don't want. We now have a Speaker (which was previously an independent arbiter) combing frantically through books of precedent to find interpretation after interpretation of the rules which allows them to block attempts by the government to exit the EU. The parliamentary system in Ireland once had the GUBU revelations, for Grotesque Unbelievable Bizarre Unprecedented, when a member of the government got into serious legal complications. Normal procedure would have been to call the Attorney General to advice, however it was the Attorney General under suspicion.

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2019-10-23 04:37:38 UTC

Post by m***@sky.com

Post by j***@panix.com

Post by j***@panix.com
Science Fictional Rulers, from Undying Emperors to Starlike Sovereigns

https://www.tor.com/2019/10/22/science-fictional-rulers-from-undying-emperors-to-starlike-sovereigns/
Like one of the commenters, I too would like to see more examples of
democratic sfnal societies with parliaments that actually function.
I don't remember enough of Julian May's Galactic Milieu to recall how
the government functioned, other than that the Human Polity's capital
was (New) Concord, New Hampshire, thanks to contingency.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

The parliamentary system in the Honorverse appears to function
reasonably well, with about the same balance of power as the UK during
the Napoleonic Wars.

I believe it was a plot point that it perfomed very badly for a number of
years, letting the navy and the international situation go to pot. I forget
if Honor was on half-pay playing Whist, but it was those kind of times.

--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Quadibloc

2019-10-23 04:40:34 UTC

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I believe it was a plot point that it perfomed very badly for a number of
years, letting the navy and the international situation go to pot. I forget
if Honor was on half-pay playing Whist, but it was those kind of times.

Surely, given that the Honor Harrington series is set in a far future of advanced technology, she would have been playing Contract Bridge at the least!

John Savard

J. Clarke

2019-10-23 08:20:09 UTC

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 21:40:34 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Surely, given that the Honor Harrington series is set in a far future of advanced technology, she would have been playing Contract Bridge at the least!

IIRC she does play Bridge.

h***@gmail.com

2019-10-23 06:25:41 UTC

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:37:41 PM UTC+11, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
spoilers for Honor Harrington below.

Post by m***@sky.com

Post by j***@panix.com

Post by j***@panix.com
Science Fictional Rulers, from Undying Emperors to Starlike Sovereigns

The parliamentary system in the Honorverse appears to function
reasonably well, with about the same balance of power as the UK during
the Napoleonic Wars.

I believe it was a plot point that it perfomed very badly for a number of
years, letting the navy and the international situation go to pot.
I forget
if Honor was on half-pay playing Whist, but it was those kind of times.

iirc there had been a reluctance to step up the navy before the war started and then the government changed and the reality of the situation resulted in a huge build up.

Honor was banished from the army for a while after a duel where she killed somebody who'd shot her multiple times before they'd received the turn & fire command. Fortunately Grayson was looking at establishing a navy at the time.

After the PM died in an assassination the conservatives took over and, after the Havenite Revolution resulted in a cease fire, they refused to normalise relations because war powers were useful and Haven was so far behind that they'd never be a threat.

iirc Honor split her attention between sitting in the house of lords equivalent and teaching at the academy during that time.

But the main point is that the governments are mostly functioning parliaments (Manticore, Grayson, Beowolf?, later Haven) rather than the single all-powerful ruler. Sol and their empire is the exception being completely run by a small group of bureaucrats.
There's also the Andromedi (?) star empire which does have a hell of a lot of power concentrated in an emperor

m***@sky.com

2019-10-23 18:33:04 UTC

Post by h***@gmail.com
spoilers for Honor Harrington below.

Post by m***@sky.com

Post by j***@panix.com

Post by j***@panix.com
Science Fictional Rulers, from Undying Emperors to Starlike Sovereigns

The parliamentary system in the Honorverse appears to function
reasonably well, with about the same balance of power as the UK during
the Napoleonic Wars.

I believe it was a plot point that it perfomed very badly for a number of
years, letting the navy and the international situation go to pot.
I forget
if Honor was on half-pay playing Whist, but it was those kind of times.

iirc there had been a reluctance to step up the navy before the war started and then the government changed and the reality of the situation resulted in a huge build up.
Honor was banished from the army for a while after a duel where she killed somebody who'd shot her multiple times before they'd received the turn & fire command. Fortunately Grayson was looking at establishing a navy at the time.
After the PM died in an assassination the conservatives took over and, after the Havenite Revolution resulted in a cease fire, they refused to normalise relations because war powers were useful and Haven was so far behind that they'd never be a threat.
iirc Honor split her attention between sitting in the house of lords equivalent and teaching at the academy during that time.
But the main point is that the governments are mostly functioning parliaments (Manticore, Grayson, Beowolf?, later Haven) rather than the single all-powerful ruler. Sol and their empire is the exception being completely run by a small group of bureaucrats.
There's also the Andromedi (?) star empire which does have a hell of a lot of power concentrated in an emperor

Thanks for that info - I've only read the first two and most recent two in the Honor Harrington series, so I wasn't aware of Honor's period in eclipse.

-dsr-

2019-10-23 19:05:33 UTC