First Shot Impact

Post by Brokedad
Since the Warren Commission somewhat "misdirected" the factual
evidence and indicated that the first shot may have missed, perhaps
the seperate works of TIME/LIFE magazine; the U.S. Secret Service; and
the Federal Bureau of Investigation (each of whom established a first
shot impact location) would suffice to demonstrate that the first shot
most assuredly did not "MISS!".
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17272

Time/Life magazine, the Secret Service and the FBI established the
location of the limousine when the first bullet struck a victim.

The FBI and others did not ask witnesses to describe the location of
the limo when they heard the first shot. So you should not equate the
first strike with the first shot.

Herbert

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-19 02:26:29 UTC

Post by Herbert Blenner

Time/Life magazine, the Secret Service and the FBI established the
location of the limousine when the first bullet struck a victim.

Not exactly and each had a slightly different idea of when the shot hit.

Post by Herbert Blenner
The FBI and others did not ask witnesses to describe the location of
the limo when they heard the first shot. So you should not equate the
first strike with the first shot.
Herbert

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-19 03:57:06 UTC

The Warren Commission never said for sure which shot missed.
The FBI said the first shot hit Kennedy, the second shot hit Connally
and the last shot hit Kennedy.

Brokedad

2011-01-20 22:32:59 UTC

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17272&pid=217981&st=0&#entry217981

bigdog

2011-01-21 04:03:12 UTC

The visual evidence indicates both JFK and JBC were hit at or about
Z222. This is well after we see JBC and Rosemary Willis reacting to
hearing a shot. In addition, JBC distinctly remembers hearing a shot
an looking first right and then turning back to his left when he felt
the second shot hit him. These were two distinct events. JBC's
recollection is corroborated by what we see in the Z-film. He is seen
reacting to a shot beginning at Z164, well before JFK or he was hit.
This shot might have ricocheted and gone on to cause the injury to
Tague's cheek, and if that is the case, then I suppose technically
that shot didn't miss, but it definitely did not hit either JFK or
JBC.

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-21 23:49:22 UTC

The visual evidence indicates both JFK and JBC were hit at or about
Z222. This is well after we see JBC and Rosemary Willis reacting to

Why do you keep changing the frame number every hour? You can't even see
Kennedy or Connally at Z-222.

Post by bigdog
hearing a shot. In addition, JBC distinctly remembers hearing a shot
an looking first right and then turning back to his left when he felt
the second shot hit him. These were two distinct events. JBC's
recollection is corroborated by what we see in the Z-film. He is seen

Again, please tell me the exact frames where you see Connally turning to
his right.

Post by bigdog
reacting to a shot beginning at Z164, well before JFK or he was hit.
This shot might have ricocheted and gone on to cause the injury to
Tague's cheek, and if that is the case, then I suppose technically
that shot didn't miss, but it definitely did not hit either JFK or
JBC.

Even a ricochet would have an intact jacket and no copper was found on
the curb smear.
Try again.

jas

2011-01-21 23:53:33 UTC

Yeah and what gets me is that damn bullet, or pieces thereof, are
somewhere embedded in dirt, or trees, or perhaps a wall or asphalt
somewhere in a general southwesterly direction from Dealey.

bigdog

2011-01-22 01:44:49 UTC

Post by jas

Yeah and what gets me is that damn bullet, or pieces thereof, are
somewhere embedded in dirt, or trees, or perhaps a wall or asphalt
somewhere in a general southwesterly direction from Dealey.

I'm not terribly concerned with figuring out exactly where this bullet
went and what it did. If it was responsible for Tague's injury, so what.
There are any number of possibilities. It is sufficient simply to
determine that this shot did not strike JFK, JBC, or anyone or anything
inside the limo. What became of it isn't terribly important, any more than
the shot(s) fired at Tippit that apparently missed the intended victim.

mark drenning

2011-01-22 22:24:19 UTC

responding to the comment about Tippit, just what shot or shots fired at
Tippit, missed their target?

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-23 03:23:37 UTC

Post by mark drenning
responding to the comment about Tippit, just what shot or shots fired at
Tippit, missed their target?

I don't think anyone can prove which shot missed, but 5 were fired and
only 4 were recovered. And the wounds tend to indicate that only 4 hit.

mark drenning

2011-01-23 16:50:44 UTC

i know about four shots three across the hood. one point blank in the
head where does shot five come from.?

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-24 01:18:49 UTC

Post by mark drenning
i know about four shots three across the hood. one point blank in the
head where does shot five come from.?

Probably window #10 of the sixth floor TSBD.

bigdog

2011-01-24 01:32:29 UTC

Post by mark drenning
i know about four shots three across the hood. one point blank in the
head where does shot five come from.?

If there was a missed shot, it was probably one of the ones fired
across the hood. How do you establish there were only three shots
fired across the hood?

mark drenning

2011-01-25 00:02:37 UTC

three eyewitnesses

bigdog

2011-01-25 06:16:23 UTC

Post by mark drenning
three eyewitnesses

As I pointed out, the witnesses put the number of shots at from 2 to 5. So
how do you conclude that witnesses who said three shots were fired across
the hood were correct? You don't establish anything by relying solely on
eyewitness accounts because eyewitnesses are terribly unreliable. We know
that some of the eyewitnesses to the Tippit murder got the number of shots
wrong.

bigdog

2011-01-23 03:25:08 UTC

Post by mark drenning
responding to the comment about Tippit, just what shot or shots fired at
Tippit, missed their target?

It is a reasonable conclusion based on the fact that 3 Winchester bullets
and 1 Remington bullets were removed from Tippit's body, but the recovered
shells were two of each make. The most likely explaination is that not all
the shells were recovered and that at least one shot missed. The missed
shot would be one of the Remingtons, while one of the three Winchester
shells were not recovered. It is remotely possible that at least one of
the Remington shells had been reloaded with a Winchester bullet, but that
seems a little far fetched to me. The missed shot seems to be the most
likely explaination. It is even possible Oswald fired six times and missed
twice. The witnesses at the scene reported anywhere from 2 to 5 shots. Go
figure.

r***@sbcglobal.net

2011-01-24 01:19:28 UTC

***The visual evidence indicated none of the Secret Service agents
appeared as if responding to a report in the vicinity of Z164. The
lack of any reaction by any of the Secret Service agents, indicated
that there was not an early shot fired.

***Ron Judge

bigdog

2011-01-24 01:34:26 UTC

We see two people who made definitive reactions to the early shot,
Rosemary Willis and John Connally. The fact that we don't see a
visible reaction from the SS agents doesn't mean they have not heard a
shot. They might have heard it and not recognized it as a gun shot or
they might have heard it, recognized it as a gun shot and were
scanning the crowd to determine the source, or they might simply have
not heard it due to the roar of the motorcycles. Clint Hill only
remembers hearing two shots. What is more likely? That some
indiividuals did not react to a gun shot that happened or that some
individuals reacted to a gun shot that did not happen.

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-25 02:41:12 UTC

The fact that we DO see a visible reaction from the SS agents tells us
that there was an early shot. No one's reactions allow us to say exactly
when that shot was.

Post by bigdog
scanning the crowd to determine the source, or they might simply have
not heard it due to the roar of the motorcycles. Clint Hill only
remembers hearing two shots. What is more likely? That some
indiividuals did not react to a gun shot that happened or that some
individuals reacted to a gun shot that did not happen.

claviger

2011-01-25 02:43:08 UTC

bigdog,

It's possible SSA Hickey heard something just after turning the corner.
We can see him leaning to his left and looking down at the street, then to
his left scanning the crowd. All other agents do not react until the
Altgens photo. Several of them admit they thought the first loud pop was
a firecracker.

drummist1965

2011-01-25 15:53:30 UTC

What about JFK's sudden head turn which precedes JBC's? Also, note
the odd look on JFK's face, when he suddenly turns his head circa 155.

bigdog

2011-01-27 05:39:57 UTC

What about JFK's sudden head turn which precedes JBC's? Also, note
the odd look on JFK's face, when he suddenly turns his head circa 155.

I do not pretend to know precisely which frame the early missed shot
occurred at because we have no defintive event that allows us to pinpoint
it. Z313 gives us proof positive of the when the headshot occured. The
bulging of JBC's jacket at Z224 followed by the simultaneous arm movements
by JFK and JBC at Z226 tell us both had been struck by a bullet a few
frames before. We don't know precisely how many frames, but I think it is
safe to say that bullet struck within one or two frames of Z222.

We have no similar event for the first shot. We are left to conjucture
when that bullet was fired based on observable actions by people in the
film. Unfortunately, we don't know how long it took for them to react to
what they heard. JBC begins a very definitive movement at Z164 which he
later said was a reaction to hearing the first shot, but how long did it
take for him to recognize what he heard as a gunshot and react to it? Who
knows. Rosemary Willis' reaction was much more gradual than JBC's head
snap and began about a half second after his reaction. Was JFK reacting to
the sound of a gunshot at Z155. Maybe, but there are other possible
explainations for that and with no definitive corroborating evidence, we
can't say with any certainty. I tend to doubt JFK recognized the first
shot as a gunshot. It's hard for me to believe he would continue to wave
to the crowd on Elm St. if he had just heard and recognized a gunshot a
few seconds earlier. If he hear that first shot, my belief is he didn't
know what it was.

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-27 20:06:54 UTC

Post by drummist1965

What about JFK's sudden head turn which precedes JBC's? Also, note
the odd look on JFK's face, when he suddenly turns his head circa 155.

I do not pretend to know precisely which frame the early missed shot
occurred at because we have no defintive event that allows us to pinpoint
it. Z313 gives us proof positive of the when the headshot occured. The
bulging of JBC's jacket at Z224 followed by the simultaneous arm movements
by JFK and JBC at Z226 tell us both had been struck by a bullet a few
frames before. We don't know precisely how many frames, but I think it is
safe to say that bullet struck within one or two frames of Z222.
We have no similar event for the first shot. We are left to conjucture
when that bullet was fired based on observable actions by people in the
film. Unfortunately, we don't know how long it took for them to react to
what they heard. JBC begins a very definitive movement at Z164 which he
later said was a reaction to hearing the first shot, but how long did it
take for him to recognize what he heard as a gunshot and react to it? Who
knows. Rosemary Willis' reaction was much more gradual than JBC's head
snap and began about a half second after his reaction. Was JFK reacting to
the sound of a gunshot at Z155. Maybe, but there are other possible
explainations for that and with no definitive corroborating evidence, we
can't say with any certainty. I tend to doubt JFK recognized the first
shot as a gunshot. It's hard for me to believe he would continue to wave
to the crowd on Elm St. if he had just heard and recognized a gunshot a
few seconds earlier. If he hear that first shot, my belief is he didn't
know what it was.

Then in your next breath you say that conspiracy believers are not allowed
to conjecture. That we have to prove every little bit. But you are free to
babble on and on.

r***@sbcglobal.net

2011-01-25 18:39:17 UTC

***Where are the definitive reactions by the Secret Service agents, who
were paid to protect the President? The fact that we don't see a reaction
by ANY of half a dozen agents, to a loud report, indicates there was no
such report just before Connally turned his head at Z164. It does not
matter whether they recognized it as a gunshot, Landis said he responded
to it, by looking at the back right tire, then turning to the rear. He
was unaware it was a gunshot at the time. Prior to exiting the Zapruder
film, Landis was just casually observing the crowd.

If the roar of the motorcycles would have drowned out the first shot, it
would have done the same to the other shots. The agents would have been
left wondering why JFK's head suddenly exploded.

Mrs. Johnson, riding behind the boat load of agents, described the first
shot as loud. I am sure the agents could have heard it above the roar of
the motorcycles.

***Ron Judge

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-25 06:21:13 UTC

Exactly how many seconds does it take for them to react to hearing a shot?

r***@sbcglobal.net

2011-01-25 15:54:14 UTC

Exactly how many seconds does it take for them to react to hearing a shot?

***Exactly how many fractions of a second does it take? The claim is
that Connally was responding to a shot when he turned his head at
Z164. Any one of the Secret Service agents could have been turning
their head at the same time, but none were. They continued to
casually view the crowd until they disappeared out of the sprockets of
the Zfilm.

After Mrs. Connally said she heard a report and turned to look at
JFK, seeing him with his hands at his face, Mr. Altgens took a photo,
which showed 3 agents turned to the rear.

***Ron Judge

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-26 03:07:16 UTC

Exactly how many seconds does it take for them to react to hearing a shot?

***Exactly how many fractions of a second does it take? The claim is

At least 1/2 a second for a voluntary reaction.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
that Connally was responding to a shot when he turned his head at

Whose claim is that? Where can I read the whole theory?

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
Z164. Any one of the Secret Service agents could have been turning
their head at the same time, but none were. They continued to
casually view the crowd until they disappeared out of the sprockets of
the Zfilm.

Frame number please.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
After Mrs. Connally said she heard a report and turned to look at
JFK, seeing him with his hands at his face, Mr. Altgens took a photo,
which showed 3 agents turned to the rear.
***Ron Judge

Brokedad

2011-01-21 23:50:14 UTC

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17272&pid=218067&st=0&#entry218067

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Warren Commission--to Drommer:

1.

One merely has to find "common ground" in order to accomplish many
things.

Elm Tree----- Loading Image...

First Lamp Post----- http://history-matte...Vol18_0050a.htm

Common to Warren Commission survey plat as well as the Drommer plat.

2. Now, if one draws a line:

A. Down the center of Elm St* on the Drommer survey plat (which
happens to accurately go through that point on the Drommer plat marked
with center of street elevation 94.2)

B. And then draws a line across Elm St. on the Drommer plat, which
runs from the center of the 6-inch Elm tree, directly across the
street to the street lamp;

C. Then a "common ground" location can be established on the WC survey
plat in direct correlation with the Drommer Plat.

*It is noted that although all "Stationing numbers of Mr. West (during
the WC/FBI/& SS Survey works) runs down the exact center of Elm St.,
JFK's plotted/platted position is approximately 1.5 feet left of
center in the direction of travel.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And, as accurately as can be determined, the intersection of the
centerline of street line, with the Elm tree to lamp post line, is at
approximate survey stationing (from the WC survey plat) of 3+55.4.
Which of course can now be transferred directly to the Drommer Plat.

Recalling that the SS as well as the FBI both established First Shot
Impact location of survey stationing 3+81.3, with street elevation of
423.07, one can, to some degree of accuracy, (plus utilization of the
Drommer scale in this exact area), now plot the impact location of the
first shot fired as determined by the SS & FBI during their seperate
and independent assassination re-enactments.

In addition,the Elm tree and south curb of Elm St. also provide, on
the Drommer plat, the "starting point" from which to determine the
impact location for the first shot fired as determined during the TIME/
LIFE survey work of 11/26/63.

If accurately plotted onto the Drommer survey plat, this demonstrates
the approximate* difference between the TIME/LIFE survey work and the
SS/FBI survey work.

In event that anyone is actually following along, posting of this
approximate* distance would be beneficial as there has never been
anyone else with whom this data could be compared.

*It is "approximate" due to the slight deficiencies in measurement
accuracies of the TIME/LIFE works; coupled with mere transfer of data
from one survey plat to another, when dealing with scales of 1-inch =
10 feet.

NOTE: There exists other similar "common ground" aspects of the WC/
Drommer survey plats in which one can accomplish similar correlations
as well as utilize the information as a cross-check of other data.

P.S.

Would post the drawings to demonstrate, but am working from a library
computer and do not have the ability to provide attachments any
longer.

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-22 22:20:23 UTC

Post by Brokedad

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17272&pid=218067&st=0&#entry218067

I am not sure what you are trying to prove. It will take me a couple of
centuries to decode your cryptic message. If your only point is that the
West map is correct about some details, ok, but so what?

Post by Brokedad
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1.
One merely has to find "common ground" in order to accomplish many
things.
Elm Tree----- http://assassination.../zfilm/z214.jpg
First Lamp Post----- http://history-matte...Vol18_0050a.htm
Common to Warren Commission survey plat as well as the Drommer plat.
A. Down the center of Elm St* on the Drommer survey plat (which
happens to accurately go through that point on the Drommer plat marked
with center of street elevation 94.2)
B. And then draws a line across Elm St. on the Drommer plat, which
runs from the center of the 6-inch Elm tree, directly across the
street to the street lamp;
C. Then a "common ground" location can be established on the WC survey
plat in direct correlation with the Drommer Plat.
*It is noted that although all "Stationing numbers of Mr. West (during
the WC/FBI/& SS Survey works) runs down the exact center of Elm St.,
JFK's plotted/platted position is approximately 1.5 feet left of
center in the direction of travel.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And, as accurately as can be determined, the intersection of the
centerline of street line, with the Elm tree to lamp post line, is at
approximate survey stationing (from the WC survey plat) of 3+55.4.
Which of course can now be transferred directly to the Drommer Plat.
Recalling that the SS as well as the FBI both established First Shot
Impact location of survey stationing 3+81.3, with street elevation of
423.07, one can, to some degree of accuracy, (plus utilization of the
Drommer scale in this exact area), now plot the impact location of the
first shot fired as determined by the SS& FBI during their seperate
and independent assassination re-enactments.

I am not sure you can back that up with a citation, but arguendo which
Zapruder frame would that represent? Z-210?

Post by Brokedad
In addition,the Elm tree and south curb of Elm St. also provide, on
the Drommer plat, the "starting point" from which to determine the
impact location for the first shot fired as determined during the TIME/
LIFE survey work of 11/26/63.
If accurately plotted onto the Drommer survey plat, this demonstrates
the approximate* difference between the TIME/LIFE survey work and the
SS/FBI survey work.

Have you ever heard of a thing called a GIF overlay where you combine
two images?

Post by Brokedad
In event that anyone is actually following along, posting of this
approximate* distance would be beneficial as there has never been
anyone else with whom this data could be compared.

What exactly is it that you want to know?

Post by Brokedad
*It is "approximate" due to the slight deficiencies in measurement
accuracies of the TIME/LIFE works; coupled with mere transfer of data
from one survey plat to another, when dealing with scales of 1-inch =
10 feet.

Plus TIME/LIFE was not sure if the Zapruder film was made at 16 frames
per second, the old standard, or 18 frames per second, the new standard.

Post by Brokedad
NOTE: There exists other similar "common ground" aspects of the WC/
Drommer survey plats in which one can accomplish similar correlations
as well as utilize the information as a cross-check of other data.

Yes, and other maps as well.
But remember that Dealey Plaza changed between 1963 and 1978 and each
map reflects conditions at the time. Do you know why the Drommer &
Associates map that everyone is using says "Revised 6 March 1981"?

Post by Brokedad
P.S.
Would post the drawings to demonstrate, but am working from a library
computer and do not have the ability to provide attachments any
longer.

FSHG

2011-01-22 06:07:23 UTC

A very significant percentage of ALMOST HALF of all known witnesses
stated that at least one shot was fired from a location that was not
the Houston-Elm intersection.

(and several of the Houston-Elm intersection witnesses specifically
stated that at least one shot was fired from a location that was NOT
the TSBD)

Every known close witness who spoke of watching JFK start his 170 wave
stated that 170 wave had already started, and THEN the first shot was
fired, and that JFK immediately reacted rapidly to it.

(and at 166, JFK was already 6' past his first being hidden out of
sight under the tree from any TSBD snipers lair view)

Hugh Betzner stated that he took his famous 186 photo, and THEN the
first shot he heard was fired

Abe Zapruder said the first shot he heard happened right before JFK
went behind the sign at 207. Zapruder's largest and longest duration
of blurs in his film before JFK's head exploded starts at 190, just
before JFK went behind the sign.

(in the CBS '67 shots recreations tests, every test movie camera
filmers noticeably jiggled their cameras every single time a shot was
fired)

Rosemary Willis stated she heard the first shot she heard, and THEN
she started slowing down trotting while she looked back towards the
Houston-Elm intersection. In the Zap film we can see that Rosemary
started slowing down trotting at 193.

SSAgent George Hickey stated that immediately upon hearing the first
shot he heard he partially stood up and looked towards JFK.

We can clearly see that in the Zap film Hickey starts to stand up and
turn his head rapidly towards JFK starting at 195.

Phil Willis stated there was a shot just prior to his 202 photo that
startled him so much, and THEN his startle reaction caused his 202
photo.

DPD Martin, riding his cycle to JFK's left-rear, stated he turned
towards JFK just after he heard the first of 3 shots he heard. Martin
starts turning towards JFK at 205.

Charles Bronson (a 350' sound-travel distance away from the TSBD)
stated that he heard a shot just prior to his 228 photo that startled
him so much, and THEN his startle reaction caused his 228 photo.

John Connally stated he heard a shot, and THEN after a short amount
of time during which he thought that shot was an assassination attempt
rifle shot, he was THEN shot and he immediately started yelling.
Connally does not start yelling until 240.

As even the WC admitted, the majority of the known witnesses stated
that the last 2 heard shots were bunched together distinctly much
closer together than the first 2 heard shots.

DPD Chaney, riding only 15' from JFK, repeatedly stated that he heard
a shot, and THEN he looked to his left just in time to see JFK's head
explode with the 2nd shot he heard, then, Chaney heard a 3rd followup
shot. At 255 Chaney is looking directly at JFK.

SSAgent Hickey stated that he was looking behind his followup car,
THEN he turned back towards JFK, and THEN there were 2 more closely
bunched shots. At 255 Hickey is STILL looking behind his followup
car.

SSAgent Kellerman stated that he heard a shot, THEN he turned around
to look towards towards the back of the limo, and THEN he heard 2
more closely bunched shots. In the Zap film, Kellerman starts turning
to look towards the back of the limo at 257.

Many additional known witnesses stated that there was another,
distinctly separate, shot after JFK's head had ALREADY exploded.

bigdog

2011-01-22 22:25:48 UTC

A very significant percentage of ALMOST HALF of all known witnesses
stated that at least one shot was fired from a location that was not
the Houston-Elm intersection.
(and several of the Houston-Elm intersection witnesses specifically
stated that at least one shot was fired from a location that was NOT
the TSBD)
Every known close witness who spoke of watching JFK start his 170 wave
stated that 170 wave had already started, and THEN the first shot was
fired, and that JFK immediately reacted rapidly to it.
(and at 166, JFK was already 6' past his first being hidden out of
sight under the tree from any TSBD snipers lair view)
Hugh Betzner stated that he took his famous 186 photo, and THEN the
first shot he heard was fired
Abe Zapruder said the first shot he heard happened right before JFK
went behind the sign at 207. Zapruder's largest and longest duration
of blurs in his film before JFK's head exploded starts at 190, just
before JFK went behind the sign.
(in the CBS '67 shots recreations tests, every test movie camera
filmers noticeably jiggled their cameras every single time a shot was
fired)
Rosemary Willis stated she heard the first shot she heard, and THEN
she started slowing down trotting while she looked back towards the
Houston-Elm intersection. In the Zap film we can see that Rosemary
started slowing down trotting at 193.
SSAgent George Hickey stated that immediately upon hearing the first
shot he heard he partially stood up and looked towards JFK.
We can clearly see that in the Zap film Hickey starts to stand up and
turn his head rapidly towards JFK starting at 195.
Phil Willis stated there was a shot just prior to his 202 photo that
startled him so much, and THEN his startle reaction caused his 202
photo.
DPD Martin, riding his cycle to JFK's left-rear, stated he turned
towards JFK just after he heard the first of 3 shots he heard. Martin
starts turning towards JFK at 205.
Charles Bronson (a 350' sound-travel distance away from the TSBD)
stated that he heard a shot just prior to his 228 photo that startled
him so much, and THEN his startle reaction caused his 228 photo.
John Connally stated he heard a shot, and THEN after a short amount
of time during which he thought that shot was an assassination attempt
rifle shot, he was THEN shot and he immediately started yelling.
Connally does not start yelling until 240.
As even the WC admitted, the majority of the known witnesses stated
that the last 2 heard shots were bunched together distinctly much
closer together than the first 2 heard shots.
DPD Chaney, riding only 15' from JFK, repeatedly stated that he heard
a shot, and THEN he looked to his left just in time to see JFK's head
explode with the 2nd shot he heard, then, Chaney heard a 3rd followup
shot. At 255 Chaney is looking directly at JFK.
SSAgent Hickey stated that he was looking behind his followup car,
THEN he turned back towards JFK, and THEN there were 2 more closely
bunched shots. At 255 Hickey is STILL looking behind his followup
car.
SSAgent Kellerman stated that he heard a shot, THEN he turned around
to look towards towards the back of the limo, and THEN he heard 2
more closely bunched shots. In the Zap film, Kellerman starts turning
to look towards the back of the limo at 257.
Many additional known witnesses stated that there was another,
distinctly separate, shot after JFK's head had ALREADY exploded.

You can pretty much make a case for just about any scenario you want
depending on the witnesses you choose to cherry pick. If witnesses were a
reliable way of determining what happened, most of them would tell us the
same thing. If you look at the entire body of eyewitness accounts, you'd
wonder if these people were describing the same event. The only way to
determine if a witness accurately remembers what he saw and heard, you
have to look to corroborating evidence. Almost all witnesses thought they
heard gunshots from one location only. The few you mentioned who thought
they heard a shot from a second location were the exceptions. There was
also a solid consensus for three shots. The earwitnesses who thought they
heard the shots coming from the direction of the TSBD are corroborated by
an eyewitness who saw a shooter fire and several more who located the
rifle before the sniper pulled it back inside the building. Further
corroboration was provided with the discovery of 3 spent shells in the
location the eyewitnesses pointed out and the discovery of a rifle on that
same floor which was later determined to have fired the two recovered
bullets.There is zero corroboration for the witnesses who thought they
heard shots from the GK or any other location.

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-23 03:17:40 UTC

Post by FSHG

A very significant percentage of ALMOST HALF of all known witnesses
stated that at least one shot was fired from a location that was not
the Houston-Elm intersection.

Not quite. Only a small percentage of the known witnesses were interviewed
and then a small percentage of those gave an opinion as to where the shot
originated. We are left with a small number, although greater than the
TSBD, who said the shots came from the grassy knoll. Enough to lead the
HSCA to test that location.

Post by FSHG
(and several of the Houston-Elm intersection witnesses specifically
stated that at least one shot was fired from a location that was NOT
the TSBD)

An extremely small percentage.

Post by FSHG
Every known close witness who spoke of watching JFK start his 170 wave
stated that 170 wave had already started, and THEN the first shot was
fired, and that JFK immediately reacted rapidly to it.

Please cite the witnesses you mean. Most of the witnesses never said
anything about frame numbers.

Post by FSHG
(and at 166, JFK was already 6' past his first being hidden out of
sight under the tree from any TSBD snipers lair view)

There was a break in the foliage through which a shooter could have seen
Kennedy.

Post by FSHG
Hugh Betzner stated that he took his famous 186 photo, and THEN the
first shot he heard was fired

Yes, but there is a slight difference between when he started to snap the
photo and when the muzzle blast got to him. We can't be sure that he was
inside the cone of the shock wave.

Post by FSHG
Abe Zapruder said the first shot he heard happened right before JFK
went behind the sign at 207. Zapruder's largest and longest duration
of blurs in his film before JFK's head exploded starts at 190, just
before JFK went behind the sign.

What do you think causes the jiggle patterns?
The HSCA tried to match up the jiggle patterns with the acoustical
evidence but had to tie the sequence to the head shot coming from the
TSBD. It works better if you tie it to the head shot coming from the
grassy knoll.

Another factor which might influence our choosing the HSCA version
or mine would be the jiggle analysis of the Zapruder film. Even the HSCA
admitted that the jiggle analysis matched better when the grassy knoll
shot was lined up with Z-313. [2] Figure 3 compares the timing of the
impulses to the Zapruder film. The HSCA rejected the shot which is
indicated in brackets as being too fast for Oswald to have fired. The
jiggle analysis measured the amount of panning error by Zapruder. To
simply and clarify, I have put the groups into ascending order. The group
with the largest amount of blur is marked 'A', the second largest 'B',
etc. I have chosen the Hartmann figures to be representative, as his are
usually midway between Alvarez or Scott's figures. Zapruder's camera ran
at 18.3 frames per second on average.

Figure 3. Two comparisons of jiggle analysis to acoustical data
Frames Group
158-159 D
191-197 B Note that the start of a jiggle group may not
227 C coincide with the firing or impact of a bullet.
290-291 E In most cases, it takes several frames before
313-318 A1 Zapruder reacts to a stimulus.
331-332 A2

HSCA Z-# hit? origin jiggle Marsh Z-# hit? origin jiggle
137.70 161 miss TSBD D 137.702 179 miss TSBD VI#1 B
139.27 191 JFK/JBC TSBD B 139.268 209 JFK TSBD VI#1
[140.32] 140.339 230 Connally TSBD VI#10 C
144.90 297 miss knoll E 144.895 312.6 JFK knoll A1
145.61 312 JFK TSBD A1 145.608 328 Connally TSBD VI#1 A2

The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot
occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy knoll.
Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot hit
what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last
shot he
heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place. If he in fact had heard
the last shot from the TSBD hit the chrome topping, that would not, in
and of
itself, prove that the TSBD shot missed JFK's head, as the dent could have
been caused by a fragment from the head shot. But it would narrow the range
during which the chrome topping was dented to between Z-313 to Z-331 and
make
it more likely that the chrome topping was dented at the same time that the
windshield was cracked, rather than much earlier as some have speculated.

Post by FSHG
(in the CBS '67 shots recreations tests, every test movie camera
filmers noticeably jiggled their cameras every single time a shot was
fired)
Rosemary Willis stated she heard the first shot she heard, and THEN
she started slowing down trotting while she looked back towards the
Houston-Elm intersection. In the Zap film we can see that Rosemary
started slowing down trotting at 193.
SSAgent George Hickey stated that immediately upon hearing the first
shot he heard he partially stood up and looked towards JFK.
We can clearly see that in the Zap film Hickey starts to stand up and
turn his head rapidly towards JFK starting at 195.
Phil Willis stated there was a shot just prior to his 202 photo that
startled him so much, and THEN his startle reaction caused his 202
photo.
DPD Martin, riding his cycle to JFK's left-rear, stated he turned
towards JFK just after he heard the first of 3 shots he heard. Martin
starts turning towards JFK at 205.
Charles Bronson (a 350' sound-travel distance away from the TSBD)
stated that he heard a shot just prior to his 228 photo that startled
him so much, and THEN his startle reaction caused his 228 photo.
John Connally stated he heard a shot, and THEN after a short amount
of time during which he thought that shot was an assassination attempt
rifle shot, he was THEN shot and he immediately started yelling.
Connally does not start yelling until 240.
As even the WC admitted, the majority of the known witnesses stated
that the last 2 heard shots were bunched together distinctly much
closer together than the first 2 heard shots.
DPD Chaney, riding only 15' from JFK, repeatedly stated that he heard
a shot, and THEN he looked to his left just in time to see JFK's head
explode with the 2nd shot he heard, then, Chaney heard a 3rd followup
shot. At 255 Chaney is looking directly at JFK.
SSAgent Hickey stated that he was looking behind his followup car,
THEN he turned back towards JFK, and THEN there were 2 more closely
bunched shots. At 255 Hickey is STILL looking behind his followup
car.
SSAgent Kellerman stated that he heard a shot, THEN he turned around
to look towards towards the back of the limo, and THEN he heard 2
more closely bunched shots. In the Zap film, Kellerman starts turning
to look towards the back of the limo at 257.
Many additional known witnesses stated that there was another,
distinctly separate, shot after JFK's head had ALREADY exploded.

There is a way out for the WC defenders. They can claim that the second
sound after the head shot was fragments hitting the chrome topping.

claviger

2011-01-22 22:26:03 UTC

Brokedad,

These witnesses claim they saw the first shot miss, or their testimony
indicates they saw a first shot miss:

Sheriff Bill Decker

DPD James Chaney

DPD Stavis Ellis

DPD B J Martin

SSA Glen Bennett

Victoria Adams

Virgie Rachley Baker

Emmett Hudson

Royce Skelton

Tina Towner

Rosemary Willis

Mary Woodward

Here is one of several past discussions with more details:

"Missing the first shot"

Also, ballistics expert Howard Donahue came to the conclusion the
first shot disintegrated when it hit the pavement, and a fragment made
a flesh wound on the President causing him to exclaim "My God, I've
been hit!" So in that sense all 3 shots did wound the President.

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-23 03:23:24 UTC

Brokedad,
These witnesses claim they saw the first shot miss, or their testimony
Sheriff Bill Decker
DPD James Chaney
DPD Stavis Ellis
DPD B J Martin
SSA Glen Bennett
Victoria Adams
Virgie Rachley Baker
Emmett Hudson
Royce Skelton
Tina Towner
Rosemary Willis
Mary Woodward
"Missing the first shot"
Also, ballistics expert Howard Donahue came to the conclusion the
first shot disintegrated when it hit the pavement, and a fragment made
a flesh wound on the President causing him to exclaim "My God, I've
been hit!" So in that sense all 3 shots did wound the President.

DOnahue was an idiot. Kennedy did not say anything.
Hickey did not shoot him with his AR-15.

claviger

2011-01-25 02:26:45 UTC

Anthony,

Post by Anthony Marsh
DOnahue was an idiot. Kennedy did not say anything.
Hickey did not shoot him with his AR-15.

Donahue was an expert. Kellerman heard the President speak. The SS
made a decision to stop carrying the AR-15 after this incident.

Why would they do that if it had nothing to do with this event? Since
a sniper in a building was shooting from six floors up, it seem
logical the SS would wish to carry more than one lightweight compact
rifle in case they run into more than one sniper in a building. Like
the "classic triangulation crossfire" we so often hear about. Pistols
would not be as effective on an elevated target that high as would the
AR-15. It makes no sense, unless the AR-15 was somehow involved in
the shooting at Dealey Plaza.

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-25 15:53:07 UTC

Post by claviger
Anthony,

Post by Anthony Marsh
DOnahue was an idiot. Kennedy did not say anything.
Hickey did not shoot him with his AR-15.

Donahue was an expert. Kellerman heard the President speak. The SS
made a decision to stop carrying the AR-15 after this incident.

You are making up conclusions from your imagination. They still carry
machine guns.

Post by claviger
Why would they do that if it had nothing to do with this event? Since
a sniper in a building was shooting from six floors up, it seem
logical the SS would wish to carry more than one lightweight compact
rifle in case they run into more than one sniper in a building. Like
the "classic triangulation crossfire" we so often hear about. Pistols
would not be as effective on an elevated target that high as would the
AR-15. It makes no sense, unless the AR-15 was somehow involved in
the shooting at Dealey Plaza.

claviger

2011-01-26 03:06:11 UTC

Post by claviger
Anthony,

Post by Anthony Marsh
DOnahue was an idiot. Kennedy did not say anything.
Hickey did not shoot him with his AR-15.

Donahue was an expert. Kellerman heard the President speak. The SS
made a decision to stop carrying the AR-15 after this incident.

You are making up conclusions from your imagination. They still carry
machine guns.

Did Rowley let the cat out of the bag?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/6398c7b87bd42828/571c1e37afa018a7?lnk=gst&q=let+the+cat+out+of+the+bag#571c1e37afa018a7

claviger

2011-01-26 14:19:09 UTC

Post by claviger
Anthony,

Post by Anthony Marsh
DOnahue was an idiot. Kennedy did not say anything.
Hickey did not shoot him with his AR-15.

Donahue was an expert. Kellerman heard the President speak. The SS
made a decision to stop carrying the AR-15 after this incident.

You are making up conclusions from your imagination. They still carry
machine guns.

Anthony,

Not making anything up. I pointed this out to you once before.

Rowley, James J.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/rowley1.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/rowley.htm

Did Rowley let the cat out of the bag?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/6398c7b87bd42828/bae9263554bb1088?lnk=gst&q=Rowley#bae9263554bb1088

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I am thinking of this. As you go along in the
motorcade, you have men who are scanning the buildings along the way,
don't you?
Mr. ROWLEY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. And they have submachineguns in one of the cars.
Mr. ROWLEY. No; for security reasons, I would like to--we don't have
machine-guns now, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. I just thought I heard that from the record here, that
they had some kind of guns.
Mr. ROWLEY. They had a weapon, a new weapon; yes, sir.
Mr. CHAIRMAN. Well, whatever it is.

Here we have testimony from a high ranking SS Agent they no longer
carry "machine-guns" or the "new weapon". He wished they could "for
security reasons" but evidently they are no longer allowed to carry
them in parade situations. Obviously that decision came from higher
up and Rowley is not pleased about it. So what happened that caused a
change in policy, a change that down graded security after a President
has been murdered? Shouldn't the SS enhance security precautions and
have adequate firepower to deal with any future attack on a
motorcade? Inexplicably, they do just the opposite. The SS guards
are now back to handguns versus rifles, which puts them at a
disadvantage, especially when passing under tall buildings. This new
policy makes no sense at all unless something bad happened involving
the AR-15 in Dealey Plaza. This strange decision is prime facia
evidence something must have happened to put the AR-15 in a negative
situation.

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-26 23:07:53 UTC

Post by claviger
Anthony,

Post by Anthony Marsh
DOnahue was an idiot. Kennedy did not say anything.
Hickey did not shoot him with his AR-15.

Donahue was an expert. Kellerman heard the President speak. The SS
made a decision to stop carrying the AR-15 after this incident.

You are making up conclusions from your imagination. They still carry
machine guns.

Yes, whatever it was. Not a machine gun. An assault rifle.
A machine gun would be bigger and heavier, inconvenient to use.
Rowley is confirming that they had a NEW weapon, i.e. the AR-15.
Not a machine gun.

Post by claviger
Here we have testimony from a high ranking SS Agent they no longer
carry "machine-guns" or the "new weapon". He wished they could "for
security reasons" but evidently they are no longer allowed to carry
them in parade situations. Obviously that decision came from higher

He didn't say "no longer." That is something you made up from your
imagination. This is a perfect example of your constantly
misrepresenting testimony.

Post by claviger
up and Rowley is not pleased about it. So what happened that caused a
change in policy, a change that down graded security after a President
has been murdered? Shouldn't the SS enhance security precautions and

There was no change in policy. Sometimes there is a change in weaponry
as better weapons come on the market, as the AR-15 did. They did not use
the AR-15 back in the 40s.

Post by claviger
have adequate firepower to deal with any future attack on a
motorcade? Inexplicably, they do just the opposite. The SS guards
are now back to handguns versus rifles, which puts them at a
disadvantage, especially when passing under tall buildings. This new

The vast majority of agents are only armed with handguns today. On
protective duty and in motorcades they have a couple of automatic rifles.

Post by claviger
policy makes no sense at all unless something bad happened involving
the AR-15 in Dealey Plaza. This strange decision is prime facia
evidence something must have happened to put the AR-15 in a negative
situation.

There was no new policy. You are making up some phony story to prop up
your wacky theory.

claviger

2011-01-29 03:17:07 UTC

Anthony,

Post by Anthony Marsh
Yes, whatever it was. Not a machine gun. An assault rifle.
A machine gun would be bigger and heavier, inconvenient to use.
Rowley is confirming that they had a NEW weapon, i.e. the AR-15.
Not a machine gun.

Yes, I agree and Rowley was aware there was a distinction between the
two and answered correctly. He was also aware the person who asked
the question was using the colloquial meaning. For instance,
technically "Machine Gun Kelly" was actually Submachine Gun Kelly.
Rowley realized the person asking the question was referring to the
“new weapon” AR-15.

He didn't say "no longer." That is something you made up from your
imagination. This is a perfect example of your constantly
misrepresenting testimony.

Rowley makes it clear they don’t carry the new weapon “now”.
Obviously this was not his decision which means it came from higher
up.

There was no change in policy.

It is patently obvious there was a change in policy and Rowley is not
happy about it.

Post by Anthony Marsh
Sometimes there is a change in weaponry as better weapons come on the
market, as the AR-15 did. They did not use the AR-15 back in the 40s.

The AR-15 was the latest technology in 1963, a precursor to the M-16.
The M-16 is still the main weapon for the US military and SWAT teams
to this day.

The vast majority of agents are only armed with handguns today. On
protective duty and in motorcades they have a couple of automatic rifles.

So why a policy change in the aftermath of this assassination? Why
did the AR-15 fail the test? The “new weapon” wasn’t fired that day,
or was it?

There was no new policy. You are making up some phony story to prop up
your wacky theory.

There definitely was a change in policy. That could not be more obvious.
I would assume the SS only carried handguns in the past that could be kept
out of sight prior to 1963. No shotguns for obvious reasons and no
rifles. Don’t know about a submachine gun like a Thompson or M-1
carbine. The AR-15 appears to have been something new added for the trip
to Dallas. It was short, lightweight, had a 3-way selector switch and
could be kept out of sight on the floorboard. Evidently the AR-15 must
have caused a problem. The question is how and why, if it was not used
that day as the SS claimed?

claviger

2011-01-29 21:22:29 UTC

Anthony,

I might be mistaken about the SS carrying shotguns. From what I can find
on Inet the SS purchased an acquisition of shotguns in 1970 and the
Remington Model 870 (modified) is currently approved by the SS. I can
find no information about shotguns and the SS prior to 1970 and no
evidence there was a shotgun in the motorcade through Dealey Plaza. I
assume any SS shotgun would be modified to make a tight pattern and fire
pellets less likely to penetrate through the primary target.

Remington Model 870P shotguns (United States) - Jane's Infantry ...
http://www.janes.com / articles / Janes-Infantry-Weapons / Remington-
Model-870P-sho... - 13k - similar pages May 27, 2010 ... In September
2001, the US Secret Service purchased 1600 Remington Model 870
( modified) shotguns at USD491 each, but no further information ...

Firearms Used by Presidential Bodyguards | eHow.com
http://www.ehow.com/list_7446617_firearms-used-presidential-bodyguards.html
- 74k - similar pagesDec 4, 2010 ... Secret Service agents also carry
close-combat weapons such as the HK MP5 submachine gun and the
Remington Model 870 shotgun. ...

One SS Agent claims there were boxes of shotguns at the White House
and he was handed a Thompson submachine gun to carry in one motorcade:
[PDF] IN THE PRESIDENT'S SECRET SERVICE by Ronald Kessler Chapter
2 ...
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/080409_secret_service.pdf

Again no evidence the motorcade through Dealey Plaza carried a shotgun
or a Thompson.

In recent years the Heckler & Koch MP5K 9mm was popular with the SS, one
reason being it was easy to carry under a coat jacket. So rapid- fire
hi-tech weapons made a comeback in the SS. Then why was the AR-15 "new
weapon" dropped after the assassination of President Kennedy? It was
lightweight, easy to use, and more accurate at long distance than the
Thompson. Sounds like the perfect weapon to return fire at elevated
targets in office buildings.

Thompson submachine gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_submachine_gun - 132k - similar
pagesThe Thompson Submachine Gun was developed by General John T.
Thompson who ... The major complaints against the Thompson were its
weight, inaccuracy at ranges .... satisfied with, and did not give the
Model of 1923 much consideration, ...

AR-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15 - 102k - similar pagesThe AR-15
(ArmaLite Model 15) is a widely owned semi-automatic rifle, of which
the most famous derivative is the selective fire M16-series assault
rifle ...

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-30 02:25:43 UTC

Post by claviger
Anthony,

He didn't say "no longer." That is something you made up from your
imagination. This is a perfect example of your constantly
misrepresenting testimony.

Rowley makes it clear they don?t carry the new weapon ?now?.
Obviously this was not his decision which means it came from higher
up.

Maybe they found a better weapon. When did they change to the UZI? And
wouldn't it be Rowley's decision to make? I don't mind your guessing about
this, but I'd like to see some documentation.

There was no change in policy.

It is patently obvious there was a change in policy and Rowley is not
happy about it.

So, what is your theory? That the new President decided what weapons the
Secret Service could carry? I wonder if that has anything to do with the
fact that LBJ was almost killed by his own SS agent in his own home?

As author and former Secret Service member Gerald Blaine explains, he was
guarding Johnson's home in Washington the night after Kennedy was killed
when he heard suspicious footsteps. Blaine loudly activated his submachine
gun, hoping to warn the unknown figure off, but the footsteps continued.
In Blaine's account, he brought the gun to his chest and put his finger on
the trigger ? only to see that the man was Johnson himself.

Post by Anthony Marsh
Sometimes there is a change in weaponry as better weapons come on the
market, as the AR-15 did. They did not use the AR-15 back in the 40s.

The AR-15 was the latest technology in 1963, a precursor to the M-16.
The M-16 is still the main weapon for the US military and SWAT teams
to this day.

They used the Thompson submachine gun in the 50s and early 60s, but the
AR-15 was probably more convenient to use in the Queen Mary.

The vast majority of agents are only armed with handguns today. On
protective duty and in motorcades they have a couple of automatic rifles.

So why a policy change in the aftermath of this assassination? Why
did the AR-15 fail the test? The ?new weapon? wasn?t fired that day,
or was it?

No, it wasn't. Try firing one in a crowd and see if no one notices.

There was no new policy. You are making up some phony story to prop up
your wacky theory.

I don't think so. I think they also used Thompson submachine guns.

The United States Secret Service used the Uzi as their standard submachine
gun from the 1960s until the early 1990s, when it was phased out and
replaced with the Heckler & Koch MP5 and FN P90. When President Ronald
Reagan was shot on March 30, 1981 outside of the Washington Hilton Hotel
by John Hinckley Jr., Secret Service Special Agent Robert Wanko pulled an
Uzi out of a briefcase and covered the rear of the presidential limousine
as it sped to safety with the wounded president inside.[5]

Post by claviger
rifles. Don?t know about a submachine gun like a Thompson or M-1
carbine. The AR-15 appears to have been something new added for the trip
to Dallas. It was short, lightweight, had a 3-way selector switch and

I suspect they had it for trips before Dallas.

Post by claviger
could be kept out of sight on the floorboard. Evidently the AR-15 must
have caused a problem. The question is how and why, if it was not used
that day as the SS claimed?

r***@sbcglobal.net

2011-01-24 01:30:21 UTC

Post by Brokedad
evidence and indicated that the first shot may have missed, perhaps
the seperate works of TIME/LIFE magazine; the U.S. Secret Service; and
the Federal Bureau of Investigation (each of whom established a first
shot impact location) would suffice to demonstrate that the first shot
most assuredly did not "MISS!".
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17272

Brokedad,
These witnesses claim they saw the first shot miss, or their testimony
Sheriff Bill Decker
DPD James Chaney
DPD Stavis Ellis
DPD B J Martin
SSA Glen Bennett

***Most or all of these people were next to a radio microphone, yet
no one grabbed a mike to call out, "shots fired," or some other
warning, in an attempt to protect the President, after seeing an
alleged missed first shot.

***Ron Judge

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-25 06:21:33 UTC

Brokedad,
These witnesses claim they saw the first shot miss, or their testimony
Sheriff Bill Decker
DPD James Chaney
DPD Stavis Ellis
DPD B J Martin
SSA Glen Bennett

How would that protect the President within 1.66 seconds?

r***@sbcglobal.net

2011-01-25 15:54:34 UTC

Brokedad,
These witnesses claim they saw the first shot miss, or their testimony
Sheriff Bill Decker
DPD James Chaney
DPD Stavis Ellis
DPD B J Martin
SSA Glen Bennett

How would that protect the President within 1.66 seconds?

***From Z160 to Z313 is more like 8 seconds. Remember, these people
had access to a microphone and if they saw the first shot miss and
particularly if they saw such a miss strike the pavement, as at least
one motor officer said, why was there no one calling out over the
radio that shots were being fired at the motorcade, while the shooting
was going on?

***Ron Judge

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-26 03:07:06 UTC

Brokedad,
These witnesses claim they saw the first shot miss, or their testimony
Sheriff Bill Decker
DPD James Chaney
DPD Stavis Ellis
DPD B J Martin
SSA Glen Bennett

How would that protect the President within 1.66 seconds?

Which people? Are you saying that everyone had a microphone so at least
one person out of 700 should have called in the shooting immediately?
And who could have called it in with a microphone that would have done
any good?

r***@sbcglobal.net

2011-01-26 22:52:47 UTC

Brokedad,
These witnesses claim they saw the first shot miss, or their testimony
Sheriff Bill Decker
DPD James Chaney
DPD Stavis Ellis
DPD B J Martin
SSA Glen Bennett

How would that protect the President within 1.66 seconds?

***Which people? The ones in the list i copied from someone else's
post- Decker, police motor officers.
Did you not read the list? How does a list of a half dozen names
become everyone in Dealey Plaza?

It is not so much about whether calling on the microphone would have
done any good, it is more about it being unlikely that anyone with a
microphone at their disposal, saw a missed first shot hit the
pavement, as one motor officer said.

When i watch COPS or other similar shows, the patrol officer calls in
"shots fired" when the suspect they are chasing, shoots at them, even
though it doesn't do any good in terms of stopping the perpetrator.
It lets others know there is imminent danger. Imagine the motor
officer next to JFK had heard "shots fired" from the motor officer
further down the street, over his radio, just after Z160. What might
have transpired next, that might have saved JFK's life?

***Ron Judge

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-26 23:19:47 UTC

Brokedad,
These witnesses claim they saw the first shot miss, or their testimony
Sheriff Bill Decker
DPD James Chaney
DPD Stavis Ellis
DPD B J Martin
SSA Glen Bennett

How would that protect the President within 1.66 seconds?

OK, so now you've changed your argument yet again when caught and now it
is ONLY the escort cyclists. OK, let's say that McLain radios it in the
the dispatcher. What that accomplish? By the time he could have radioed
it in there were only a few more seconds left and not enough to time for
anyone hearing it to react. And react how?

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
It is not so much about whether calling on the microphone would have
done any good, it is more about it being unlikely that anyone with a
microphone at their disposal, saw a missed first shot hit the
pavement, as one motor officer said.

Why do you believe anyone saw a bullet hit the pavement?

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
When i watch COPS or other similar shows, the patrol officer calls in
"shots fired" when the suspect they are chasing, shoots at them, even

Yeah, sure. You can't separate Hollywood from real life?

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
though it doesn't do any good in terms of stopping the perpetrator.
It lets others know there is imminent danger. Imagine the motor
officer next to JFK had heard "shots fired" from the motor officer
further down the street, over his radio, just after Z160. What might
have transpired next, that might have saved JFK's life?

Nothing.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
***Ron Judge

r***@sbcglobal.net

2011-01-27 20:11:04 UTC

Brokedad,
These witnesses claim they saw the first shot miss, or their testimony
Sheriff Bill Decker
DPD James Chaney
DPD Stavis Ellis
DPD B J Martin
SSA Glen Bennett

How would that protect the President within 1.66 seconds?

***You changed the argument from the people on the list to everyone in
Dealey Plaza had a microphone.
Now you change it again to only motorcyclists, when Sheriff Decker was
in a car and was on the list i mentioned.

***Ron Judge

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-28 01:25:45 UTC

Brokedad,
These witnesses claim they saw the first shot miss, or their testimony
Sheriff Bill Decker
DPD James Chaney
DPD Stavis Ellis
DPD B J Martin
SSA Glen Bennett

How would that protect the President within 1.66 seconds?

***You changed the argument from the people on the list to everyone in
Dealey Plaza had a microphone.

I am making fun of your phony list.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
Now you change it again to only motorcyclists, when Sheriff Decker was
in a car and was on the list i mentioned.

So were the SS agents in the limo, and in the Queen Mary. What good
would it have done for them to announce it on the radio?
Merriman Smith picked up the radio and put out the story immediately.
How did that protect the President. He had already been shot by then.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
***Ron Judge

r***@sbcglobal.net

2011-01-29 02:35:56 UTC

Brokedad,
These witnesses claim they saw the first shot miss, or their testimony
Sheriff Bill Decker
DPD James Chaney
DPD Stavis Ellis
DPD B J Martin
SSA Glen Bennett

How would that protect the President within 1.66 seconds?

***You changed the argument from the people on the list to everyone in
Dealey Plaza had a microphone.

I am making fun of your phony list.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
Now you change it again to only motorcyclists, when Sheriff Decker was
in a car and was on the list i mentioned.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
***Ron Judge

***The Queen Mary radio was connected to who?

You say Merriman Smith picked up the radio and put out the story
immediately, but how immediately was immediately? After the last shot?
By then, certainly it would have been too late. But if Merriman saw a
bullet strike the curb at Z160, heard the shot, and jumped on the radio to
report someone was shooting at the motorcade, there was time to do
something to prevent JFK from being shot in the head.

I don't believe the first shot missed, however, thus no one would have
seen a missed first shot hit the curb, as definitive evidence that a shot
had been fired, as opposed to some kid having set off a firecracker.

***Ron Judge

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-30 15:29:06 UTC

Brokedad,
These witnesses claim they saw the first shot miss, or their testimony
Sheriff Bill Decker
DPD James Chaney
DPD Stavis Ellis
DPD B J Martin
SSA Glen Bennett

How would that protect the President within 1.66 seconds?

***You changed the argument from the people on the list to everyone in
Dealey Plaza had a microphone.

I am making fun of your phony list.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
Now you change it again to only motorcyclists, when Sheriff Decker was
in a car and was on the list i mentioned.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
***Ron Judge

***The Queen Mary radio was connected to who?

The Secret Service.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
You say Merriman Smith picked up the radio and put out the story
immediately, but how immediately was immediately? After the last shot?

Immediately after the last shot. He reported three shots. Check the AP
time. Within a minute of the shooting.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
By then, certainly it would have been too late. But if Merriman saw a
bullet strike the curb at Z160, heard the shot, and jumped on the radio to
report someone was shooting at the motorcade, there was time to do
something to prevent JFK from being shot in the head.

No. Clint Hill had a nervous breakdown because he reacted just a second
or two late, but even if he had reacted before the second shot he could
have saved Kennedy's life.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
I don't believe the first shot missed, however, thus no one would have
seen a missed first shot hit the curb, as definitive evidence that a shot
had been fired, as opposed to some kid having set off a firecracker.

Many people thought the first sound was a firecracker or a backfire. So
what do you think would have been the first thing that people reacted to?

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
***Ron Judge

Anthony Marsh

2011-01-30 19:40:35 UTC

Post by Brokedad
Since the Warren Commission somewhat "misdirected" the factual

Post by Brokedad
evidence and indicated that the first shot may have missed, perhaps
the seperate works of TIME/LIFE magazine; the U.S. Secret
Service; and
the Federal Bureau of Investigation (each of whom
established a first
shot impact location) would suffice to demonstrate that the
first shot
most assuredly did not "MISS!".
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17272

Brokedad,
These witnesses claim they saw the first shot miss, or their testimony
Sheriff Bill Decker
DPD James Chaney
DPD Stavis Ellis
DPD B J Martin
SSA Glen Bennett

***Most or all of these people were next to a radio
microphone, yet
no one grabbed a mike to call out, "shots fired," or some other
warning, in an attempt to protect the President, after seeing an
alleged missed first shot.
***Ron Judge

How would that protect the President within 1.66 seconds?

Which people? Are you saying that everyone had a microphone so at least
one person out of 700 should have called in the shooting
immediately?
And who could have called it in with a microphone that would have done
any good?

***You changed the argument from the people on the list to everyone in
Dealey Plaza had a microphone.

I am making fun of your phony list.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
Now you change it again to only motorcyclists, when Sheriff Decker was
in a car and was on the list i mentioned.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
***Ron Judge

***The Queen Mary radio was connected to who?

The Secret Service.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
You say Merriman Smith picked up the radio and put out the story
immediately, but how immediately was immediately? After the last shot?

Immediately after the last shot. He reported three shots. Check the AP
time. Within a minute of the shooting.

No. Clint Hill had a nervous breakdown because he reacted just a second
or two late, but even if he had reacted before the second shot he could

Correction: could NOT

Post by Anthony Marsh
have saved Kennedy's life.

Many people thought the first sound was a firecracker or a backfire. So
what do you think would have been the first thing that people reacted to?

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
***Ron Judge

r***@sbcglobal.net

2011-01-27 20:13:43 UTC

Why do you believe anyone saw a bullet hit the pavement?

***Technically, according to the officer, the bullet had curb appeal.

Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
When i watch COPS or other similar shows, the patrol officer calls in
"shots fired" when the suspect they are chasing, shoots at them, even

Yeah, sure. You can't separate Hollywood from real life?

***COPS is real life, as real police officers are chasing and
arresting real alleged criminals.

Nothing.

***A true lack of imagination on your part. If the officer heard over his
radio from the motor officer down the street, that someone was shooting,
he could have yelled at the occupants of the limo to get down, because
someone was shooting. Even if the second shot JFK as he was warning them,
at least Jackie would have realized JFK was shot, not just acting oddly
and would have pulled him down, which would have prevented him from being
shot in the head.