Discussion:
two adverbials following the main clause
(too old to reply)
Yurui Liu
2020-02-15 02:46:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Which of the following is better style?

1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.

2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.

I'd appreciate your help.
Mark Brader
2020-02-15 03:30:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I don't think a person with permanent brain damage that bad can be
considered as having "recovered". Other than that, I find both
versions acceptable and mildly prefer b. I would prefer a shorter
wording such as:

His injuries eventually healed, but the brain damage left him with
the intelligence of a 6-year-old.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | I am a mathematician, sir. I never permit myself
***@vex.net | to think. --Stuart Mills (Carr: The Three Coffins)
Yurui Liu
2020-02-15 03:37:52 UTC
Permalink
Mark Brader於 2020年2月15日星期六 UTC+8上午11時30分50秒寫道：
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Yurui Liu
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I don't think a person with permanent brain damage that bad can be
considered as having "recovered". Other than that, I find both
versions acceptable and mildly prefer b. I would prefer a shorter
I suspect #1 is less preferred because it might be a bit awkward to follow
a main clause with two subordinate clauses in a row. "albeit/though with
severe brain damage" and the participial construction "his intelligence
having dropped to the level of a six-year-old" are both reduced clauses.
Post by Mark Brader
His injuries eventually healed, but the brain damage left him with
the intelligence of a 6-year-old.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | I am a mathematician, sir. I never permit myself
Eric Walker
2020-02-15 03:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
Neither is golden, but each is, I reckon, technically acceptable.

The wanted fixes are in the punctuation.

1a. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage--his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.

2a. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage: his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-15 03:54:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I'd appreciate your help.
I always like "though" better than "albeit".

1 strikes me as more formal because of the "having" phrase, but I don't
think it has much to do with two adverbials. I'd feel the same way
about "He suffered severe brain damage, his intelligence having dropped
to the level of a six-year-old."
--
Jerry Friedman
Yurui Liu
2020-02-15 04:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Jerry Friedman於 2020年2月15日星期六 UTC+8上午11時54分08秒寫道：
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I'd appreciate your help.
I always like "though" better than "albeit".
1 strikes me as more formal because of the "having" phrase, but I don't
think it has much to do with two adverbials. I'd feel the same way
How about the following, with two subordinate clauses?

He eventually recovered, though (he did so) with severe brain damage,
because his intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
Post by Jerry Friedman
about "He suffered severe brain damage, his intelligence having dropped
to the level of a six-year-old."
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2020-02-15 06:00:51 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:52:01 -0800 (PST), Yurui Liu
Jerry Friedman? 2020?2?15???? UTC+8??11?54?08????
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I'd appreciate your help.
I always like "though" better than "albeit".
1 strikes me as more formal because of the "having" phrase, but I don't
think it has much to do with two adverbials. I'd feel the same way
How about the following, with two subordinate clauses?
He eventually recovered, though (he did so) with severe brain damage,
because his intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
Post by Jerry Friedman
about "He suffered severe brain damage, his intelligence having dropped
to the level of a six-year-old."
--
Jerry Friedman
Is it necessary to have it all in one sentence? Are periods (full
stops) available only for an extra charge?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Yurui Liu
2020-02-15 06:38:22 UTC
Permalink
Tony Cooper於 2020年2月15日星期六 UTC+8下午2時01分13秒寫道：
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:52:01 -0800 (PST), Yurui Liu
Jerry Friedman? 2020?2?15???? UTC+8??11?54?08????
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I'd appreciate your help.
I always like "though" better than "albeit".
1 strikes me as more formal because of the "having" phrase, but I don't
think it has much to do with two adverbials. I'd feel the same way
How about the following, with two subordinate clauses?
He eventually recovered, though (he did so) with severe brain damage,
because his intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
Post by Jerry Friedman
about "He suffered severe brain damage, his intelligence having dropped
to the level of a six-year-old."
--
Jerry Friedman
Is it necessary to have it all in one sentence? Are periods (full
stops) available only for an extra charge?
#2 ("He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.") is the
original sentence, but someone changed it into #1. I'm wondering
whether that is a change for the better (or for worse).
Post by Tony Cooper
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-15 15:32:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:52:01 -0800 (PST), Yurui Liu
Jerry Friedman? 2020?2?15???? UTC+8??11?54?08????
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I'd appreciate your help.
1 strikes me as more formal because of the "having" phrase, but I don't
think it has much to do with two adverbials. I'd feel the same way
How about the following, with two subordinate clauses?
He eventually recovered, though (he did so) with severe brain damage,
because his intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
Post by Jerry Friedman
about "He suffered severe brain damage, his intelligence having dropped
to the level of a six-year-old."
Is it necessary to have it all in one sentence? Are periods (full
stops) available only for an extra charge?
YL has been taking arthur-Navi lessons.

It would be nice if that means YL has been looking at threads other
than his own and might even participate in some.
b***@aol.com
2020-02-15 07:12:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Jerry Friedman於 2020年2月15日星期六 UTC+8上午11時54分08秒寫道：
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I may be wrong, but I'd welcome a "with" to introduce the gerund clause:
"... with his intelligence having dropped...".
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I'd appreciate your help.
I always like "though" better than "albeit".
1 strikes me as more formal because of the "having" phrase, but I don't
think it has much to do with two adverbials. I'd feel the same way
How about the following, with two subordinate clauses?
He eventually recovered, though (he did so) with severe brain damage,
because his intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
In this case, the second subordinate clause should express consequence,
not cause:

"... so that his intelligence had dropped ...".
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Jerry Friedman
about "He suffered severe brain damage, his intelligence having dropped
to the level of a six-year-old."
--
Jerry Friedman
Yurui Liu
2020-02-16 02:21:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Jerry Friedman於 2020年2月15日星期六 UTC+8上午11時54分08秒寫道：
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
"... with his intelligence having dropped...".
#1 contains an absolute participial construction, so it's supposed to be
grammatically okay.
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I'd appreciate your help.
I always like "though" better than "albeit".
1 strikes me as more formal because of the "having" phrase, but I don't
think it has much to do with two adverbials. I'd feel the same way
How about the following, with two subordinate clauses?
He eventually recovered, though (he did so) with severe brain damage,
because his intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
In this case, the second subordinate clause should express consequence,
"... so that his intelligence had dropped ...".
A because-clause can introduce the way one knows something, not necessarily
the cause for something. I've seen the following example:


You didn't tell me the truth, because I found the money in your room.
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Jerry Friedman
about "He suffered severe brain damage, his intelligence having dropped
to the level of a six-year-old."
--
Jerry Friedman
b***@aol.com
2020-02-16 03:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Jerry Friedman於 2020年2月15日星期六 UTC+8上午11時54分08秒寫道：
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
"... with his intelligence having dropped...".
#1 contains an absolute participial construction, so it's supposed to be
grammatically okay.
It is, but I was wondering whether the sentence wouldn't be more idiomatic
with an added "with".
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I'd appreciate your help.
I always like "though" better than "albeit".
1 strikes me as more formal because of the "having" phrase, but I don't
think it has much to do with two adverbials. I'd feel the same way
How about the following, with two subordinate clauses?
He eventually recovered, though (he did so) with severe brain damage,
because his intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
In this case, the second subordinate clause should express consequence,
"... so that his intelligence had dropped ...".
A because-clause can introduce the way one knows something, not necessarily
You didn't tell me the truth, because I found the money in your room.
Indeed, the missing "I know" before "you didn't tell me the truth..."
is easily restored mentally in this example, but in your original
sentence (1), in the lack of context, the gerund clause would be
naturally interpreted as indicating consequence rather than cause.
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Jerry Friedman
about "He suffered severe brain damage, his intelligence having dropped
to the level of a six-year-old."
--
Jerry Friedman
Yurui Liu
2020-02-16 07:01:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Jerry Friedman於 2020年2月15日星期六 UTC+8上午11時54分08秒寫道：
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
"... with his intelligence having dropped...".
#1 contains an absolute participial construction, so it's supposed to be
grammatically okay.
It is, but I was wondering whether the sentence wouldn't be more idiomatic
with an added "with".
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I'd appreciate your help.
I always like "though" better than "albeit".
1 strikes me as more formal because of the "having" phrase, but I don't
think it has much to do with two adverbials. I'd feel the same way
How about the following, with two subordinate clauses?
He eventually recovered, though (he did so) with severe brain damage,
because his intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
In this case, the second subordinate clause should express consequence,
"... so that his intelligence had dropped ...".
A because-clause can introduce the way one knows something, not necessarily
You didn't tell me the truth, because I found the money in your room.
Indeed, the missing "I know" before "you didn't tell me the truth..."
is easily restored mentally in this example, but in your original
sentence (1), in the lack of context, the gerund clause would be
naturally interpreted as indicating consequence rather than cause.
What about the version with the missing conjunctions spelled out?

He eventually recovered, though (he did so) with severe brain damage,
because his intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Jerry Friedman
about "He suffered severe brain damage, his intelligence having dropped
to the level of a six-year-old."
--
Jerry Friedman
b***@aol.com
2020-02-16 16:46:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Jerry Friedman於 2020年2月15日星期六 UTC+8上午11時54分08秒寫道：
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
"... with his intelligence having dropped...".
#1 contains an absolute participial construction, so it's supposed to be
grammatically okay.
It is, but I was wondering whether the sentence wouldn't be more idiomatic
with an added "with".
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I'd appreciate your help.
I always like "though" better than "albeit".
1 strikes me as more formal because of the "having" phrase, but I don't
think it has much to do with two adverbials. I'd feel the same way
How about the following, with two subordinate clauses?
He eventually recovered, though (he did so) with severe brain damage,
because his intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
In this case, the second subordinate clause should express consequence,
"... so that his intelligence had dropped ...".
A because-clause can introduce the way one knows something, not necessarily
You didn't tell me the truth, because I found the money in your room.
Indeed, the missing "I know" before "you didn't tell me the truth..."
is easily restored mentally in this example, but in your original
sentence (1), in the lack of context, the gerund clause would be
naturally interpreted as indicating consequence rather than cause.
What about the version with the missing conjunctions spelled out?
He eventually recovered, though (he did so) with severe brain damage,
because his intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
One is "forced" to infer the intended meaning for the sentence to make
sense at all, but I find the phrasing awkward.
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Jerry Friedman
about "He suffered severe brain damage, his intelligence having dropped
to the level of a six-year-old."
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-15 15:29:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I'd appreciate your help.
Both are very bad.

(1) Even without the "albeit" phrase, it's a garden-path, because
"intelligence" is at first taken as the object of "recovered."

(2) This says what you seem to mean, but the semicolon is disturbing.
It needs a new sentence. You could just barely get away with a colon
instead of a semicolon, but that makes the intelligence-drop look like
a cause of the brain damage, not a result.
Yurui Liu
2020-02-16 02:27:03 UTC
Permalink
Peter T. Daniels於 2020年2月15日星期六 UTC+8下午11時29分20秒寫道：
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I'd appreciate your help.
Both are very bad.
(1) Even without the "albeit" phrase, it's a garden-path, because
"intelligence" is at first taken as the object of "recovered."
(2) This says what you seem to mean, but the semicolon is disturbing.
It needs a new sentence. You could just barely get away with a colon
instead of a semicolon, but that makes the intelligence-drop look like
a cause of the brain damage, not a result.
Can a semicolon be used to say how one knows something like the
following?

You didn't tell me the truth; I found the money in your room.
Eric Walker
2020-02-16 09:20:16 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:27:03 -0800, Yurui Liu wrote:

[...]
Post by Yurui Liu
Can a semicolon be used to say how one knows something like the
following?
You didn't tell me the truth; I found the money in your room.
Possibly, but why ignore the punctuation mark made for such purposes?

You didn't tell me the truth: I found the money in your room.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-16 14:21:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Peter T. Daniels於 2020年2月15日星期六 UTC+8下午11時29分20秒寫道：
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Yurui Liu
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I'd appreciate your help.
Both are very bad.
(1) Even without the "albeit" phrase, it's a garden-path, because
"intelligence" is at first taken as the object of "recovered."
(2) This says what you seem to mean, but the semicolon is disturbing.
It needs a new sentence. You could just barely get away with a colon
instead of a semicolon, but that makes the intelligence-drop look like
a cause of the brain damage, not a result.
Can a semicolon be used to say how one knows something like the
following?
You didn't tell me the truth; I found the money in your room.
Two sentences or colon would be better. Some very good writers in
their "advice" books say to eschew semicolons entirely.

I find that they come naturally when I compose a paragraph, and
when I reread, I take them out.
John Dunlop
2020-02-16 14:38:49 UTC
Permalink
[...] Some very good writers in their "advice" books say to eschew
semicolons entirely.
Presumably they are referring only to semicolons that are used to join
related but independent clauses. Lists in which one or more items
include commas might be hard to follow if the items are not separated by
semicolons.
--
John
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-16 15:07:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Dunlop
[...] Some very good writers in their "advice" books say to eschew
semicolons entirely.
Presumably they are referring only to semicolons that are used to join
related but independent clauses. Lists in which one or more items
include commas might be hard to follow if the items are not separated by
semicolons.
Maybe such writers also eschew such lists.
b***@shaw.ca
2020-02-16 19:51:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Dunlop
[...] Some very good writers in their "advice" books say to eschew
semicolons entirely.
Presumably they are referring only to semicolons that are used to join
related but independent clauses. Lists in which one or more items
include commas might be hard to follow if the items are not separated by
semicolons.
That was the rule when I worked in the newspaper business. If any
items in a list had internal punctuation, semi-colons were needed.
My recollection from copy-editing days is that a surprising number
of reporters didn't have a consistent approach to semi-colons.

bill
Peter Moylan
2020-02-17 01:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by John Dunlop
[...] Some very good writers in their "advice" books say to
eschew semicolons entirely.
Presumably they are referring only to semicolons that are used to
join related but independent clauses. Lists in which one or more
items include commas might be hard to follow if the items are not
separated by semicolons.
That was the rule when I worked in the newspaper business. If any
items in a list had internal punctuation, semi-colons were needed. My
recollection from copy-editing days is that a surprising number of
reporters didn't have a consistent approach to semi-colons.
I don't recall semicolons getting much coverage in my school days.
Learning how to use them came from my reading.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Ken Blake
2020-02-15 17:39:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
I'd appreciate your help.
Preferred styles vary from person to person. I greatly prefer number 2.
--
Ken
Peter Moylan
2020-02-16 00:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Which of the following is better style?
1. He eventually recovered, albeit with severe brain damage, his
intelligence having dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
2. He eventually recovered, though with severe brain damage; his
intelligence had dropped to the level of a six-year-old.
Preferred styles vary from person to person. I greatly prefer number 2.
Number 1 for me. But I strongly agree with those who said that it would
be even better to break the statement into two sentences.

In addition, I agree that someone who remains with severe brain damage
has NOT recovered.

(A friend of mine is in that situation, as a result of strychnine
poisoning. She has gradually recovered a lot of function, but she will
never be capable of doing her old job.)
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
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