The Dented Bullet Shell ( Not fired that day ? )

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

Raymond

2012-01-02 22:42:32 UTC

NUMBER OF SHOTS p 110 WR to the President

" ... The most convincing evidence relating to the number of shots was
provided by the presence on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges
which were demonstrated to have been fired by the same rifle that fired
the bullets which caused the wounds.It is possible that the assassin
carried an empty shell in the rifle and fired only two shots, with the
witnesses hearing multiple noises made by the same shot."

Most people say three. Supposedly, one (the first) shot missed, one shot
hit JFK in the neck, passed through Connally and became the alleged
magic-bullet. And the third was the fatal shot that hit the president in
the head.

The Warren Wizards said: "The consensus among the witnesses at the scene
was that three shots were fired. However, some heard only two shots. The
most convincing evidence relating to the number of shots was provided by
the presence on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges. This led the
Commission to conclude that there were three shots...." WR 110-111.

But, later they said, "The physical and other evidence examined by the
Commission compels the conclusion that AT LEAST TWO SHOTS WERE FIRED... It
is possible that the assassin carried an EMPTY SHELL IN THE RIFLE and
fired only two shots ...." WR 111

Summing up. One shot missed the car completely and there is no record of
recovering any of its remains. One shot allegedly passed through Kennedy
and Connally and magically remained NEAR (but not ) pristine and ended up
at Parkland Hospital.

This bullet weighed 161 grains before it was fired at the motorcade.
When recovered it weighed 158.6 grains which means that very little was
lost in its destructive journey.

A fragment weighing 0.5 grains was allegedly recovered from Connally's
arm.

Audrey Bell, the operating nurse, stated that there were four or five
fragments "anywhere from three to four millimeters in length and a couple
of millimeters wide. " These fragments disappeared at the later.: She
recalled receiving "three to five fragments, perhaps four" from the body
of Governor Connally, more than are currently in evidence...
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/ARRB_Medical_Interviews

In addition, what happened to the fragment found in Connally's leg
wound? Also, there was a fragment in the governor's chest that was never
recovered. He died with fragments still in his body that weighed more that
the alleged two to three missing grains from C-399 that was described as
NEAR pristine. (And the Warrens say, "The Governor's wrist wound WAS NOT
CAUSED BY A PRISTINE BULLET." p.94

So this leaves one bullet and it had to be the fatal projectile that
removed part of the president's skull and much of his brains.

After the coup, two bullet fragments were found in the Lincoln.
According to Warren , the two fragments weighed 44.6 and 21.0 grains
respectively."The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nose
area... the lighter fragment consisted of a bullet's base... the two
fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determine from
the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose of one
bullet or of two separate bullets."

If one bullet missed the car completely and one ended up at Parkland
almost (but not) pristine, the last bullet had to be the bullet that hit
JFK in the head and both fragments were from the same projectile.

I KINDA think that, with the angle of the neck shot, the above fragments
would remain in the car, ergo, the remains of the single bullet ,.... and
the head shot bullet probably ended up in tiny bits in Dealey Plaza.

Some say that Tague was hit by the first MISSED shot, but he heard shots
before he was hit by a very tiny fragment. So, he was probably hit by a
fragment from the third shot instead of the ALLEGED MISSED FIRST SHOT.
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol7/page552.php

I personally do not believe there was a missed shot. If I were the
master-mind of the coup, I would be sure to provide evidence that would
assure the connection to the rifle and its owner, And since I could not
rely on the future condition of the bullets actually fired at the
occupants of the limousine, I would fire a bullet through the barrel of
the murder weapon before 11-22-63 and be sure to leave it where it would
be found.

Enter Jack Ruby and the Parkland slug.

As Ass't DA Alexander said, "The single bullet is like the Immaculate
Conception. Either you believe it or you don't."

I do believe that a single bullet transited both men thus the single
bullet, but I will never believe that the Parkland bullet is one and the
same bullet. I believe that the JFK /Connally bullet remained in the car
and the Parkland bullet was planted on the wrong stretcher, at Parkland,
by Jack Ruby, when he failed to plant it in the limousine in Dealey Plaza
because the car went on to the hospital.

Some researchers, including George Michael Evica, believe that a shot from
a pistol was fired into the air from behind the fence, on the Grassy
Knoll, to divert the attention of the crowd and the authorities away from
the TSBD to give the shooter time to fire the fatal shots at the president
and make his escape from the rear of the building. It worked.

And, despite the testimonies putting Ruby in the Dallas Morning News, he
WAS in Dealey Plaza at the time of the shooting.

THE DENTED BULLET SHELL:
HARD EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY IN THE JFK ASSASSINATION?
Michael T. Griffith
2001

@All Rights Reserved
Second Edition
Revised on 4/26/2001

Could the dented bullet shell (CE 543) that was reportedly found next
to the sniper's window on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book
Depository Building (TSBD) have been used to fire a bullet on 22
November 1963, i.e., the day of the assassination? This is a crucial
question. Why? Because if that cartridge case couldn't have been used
to fire a bullet during the assassination, then there must have been
more than one gunman. According to ballistics and firearms expert
Howard Donahue, the dented shell could not have fired a bullet, as
Bonar Menninger reports:

It was true that three spent Carcano shells were found on the floor of
the Book Depository. . . . Yet one of the shells was dented and showed
numerous marks from the carrier, the large spring in the Carcano clip
that pushed the bullet up to the chamber. Donahue did not believe this
dented shell could have been used to fire a bullet that day. The gun
would not have functioned properly. (Mortal Error, New York: St.
Martin's Press, 1991, p. 114)

As mentioned, three shells were found in the sniper's nest, from which
the alleged lone gunman fired. But if one of those shells could not
have been used to fire a bullet during the shooting, then the sixth-
floor gunman could have only fired two shots. However, it's certain
that at least three shots were fired at President Kennedy. The single-
assassin theory demands that the alleged lone gunman fired three
shots. In other words, if the dented shell could not have been used to
fire a bullet at President Kennedy, then there must have been more
than one gunman.

Gerald Posner, author of the book Case Closed, says the House Select
Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) proved the dented shell could have
been dented this badly when it was ejected, and therefore that it
could have been used to fire a bullet on the day of the assassination:

Another shell [of the three found on the sixth floor] was dented on
the rim, raising doubts that it could have been fired from a rifle in
that condition. In experiments by the House Select Committee, rapid
firing of the Carcano resulted in some shells being dented in the
exact same location upon ejection (HSCA, Vol. 1, pp. 435, 454, 534).
(Case Closed, New York: Random House, 1992, p. 270)

I asked Howard Donahue about Posner's assertion. Donahue was a court-
certified firearms expert and a world-class marksman. He was invited
to participate in the famous 1967 CBS rifle test and achieved the best
score of the simulation. He testified in several cases as an expert
witness on firearms issues. Here is what Donahue said about Posner's
claim (all emphasis is original):

Dear Mike: Sept. 11, 1996

Concerning the case with the damaged lip. Posner claims it could have
held a projectile at that time. Let me explain something about Posner.
He will tell you anything to make a point. There were no shells dented
in that manner by the HSCA. I will refer you to Professor Thompson's
book, Six Seconds in Dallas, page 144, exhibit no. 543. Dr. Thompson
discovered this case had been fired (dry fired) at least three times.
He also tried to dent the cases by throwing them against a wall, to no
avail. Just to prove this, I am enclosing a fired 6.5 mm Carcano case.
Throw it around any way you wish and try to dent it. These cases are
very strong. It could have only been dented by feeding the case into
the breech of the gun with great force. This would be from the
clip. . . .

In closing, I have never seen a case dented like this. Dr. Thompson
never saw any cases so deformed. So Posner says the HSCA had several
empties dented like these???

Thanks for your interest--please keep in touch.
Howard Donahue, Firearms Examiner

British researcher Chris Mills likewise has concluded the dented shell
could not have been used to fire a bullet during the assassination, as
a result of his own experiments with a Carcano rifle. I quote from an
e-mail message Mills sent to me on this subject:

Ian Griggs has forwarded a posting which you wrote for the
jfk.sharegroup. In this you discuss the dented shell casing.

Ian forwarded this on to me because of my recent experiments with my
own Mannlicher Carcano. Quite by accident I recently dented a shell in
exactly the same manner as that which is shown in the photographs
showing the shell purportedly found on the sixth floor.

My M/C [Mannlicher-Carcano rifle] is deactivated and I was
experimenting with empty shells. The very first one produced the dent
on the rim. I had to repeat the operation about 60 more times before
the results were reproduced.

But the damage was exactly the same. It seems that when using a hull
that has previously been fired, the lip of the case expands slightly
and can catch on a lip below the barrel opening in the breech. This
can only happen with an empty case that has already been fired and
even then only occasionally.

This means that at least one of the cartridge cases found on 11.22.63
was not fired from that window.

In a subsequent message, Mills elaborated on his statement that one of
the cartridge cases found in the sixth-floor sniper's nest could not
have been fired from the window:

One of the cases [of the three reportedly removed from the sniper's
nest] was found with an inward facing dent on the lip of the casing.
This could not have happened before a missile left the shell as the
dent would preclude the shell actually holding the bullet. It must
have occurred at some time after this particular shell was fired.

Several researchers have tried to duplicate the damage by standing on
the case, throwing it against walls, etc., but to no avail. The case
cannot be similarly damaged by loading a live round into the chamber
either, as it is protected and guided into the breech by the bullet
itself.

What I found, by accident, is that similar damage can be caused by
loading an empty case into the weapon. It appeared to me that the more
times this was attempted, the more likely the damage was to occur.
This led me to the apparent conclusion that unless the person in the
6th floor fired the weapon, ejected the shell, picked it up and then
reloaded it (a pointless activity, as I'm sure you will agree), this
particular case had been fired at some earlier time, then reloaded
empty, probably several times. I consider that this is what caused the
damage.

This left me wondering why (a) practice with an empty shell case? and
(b) why leave an extra case behind?

Question A: At first I thought it may be to practice with the weapon
but I guess that would be just as effective without a shell case in. I
now think it more likely that the empty case was fed through several
times in order that it could be matched (by scratch marks on its
surface) to the M/C, whether or not the original bullet was really
fired from that weapon.

Which brings me to Question B: As I said in my last letter, if you
plant a missile which is supposed to have come from the murder weapon,
you must have a shell casing to go with it at the murder scene. If
not, more missiles may turn up than cases found. Hence the dumped
case, whoever did it being unaware of the damage to its lip.

Dr. Michael Kurtz says there's no doubt that CE 543, i.e., the dented
shell, could not have fired a bullet on the day of the assassination,
and, moreover, that it could not have been fired from the rifle that
Oswald allegedly used:

The third cartridge case, Commission Exhibit 543, contained a dent in
the opening so large that it could not have held a bullet in it. . . .

In a letter to the Warren Commission of 2 June 1964, J. Edgar Hoover
noted that Commission Exhibit 543 (FBI Number C6), the case with the
dent, had "three sets of marks on the base of this cartridge case
which were not found [on the other casings]." The case, according to
Hoover, had also been loaded into and extracted from a weapon three
times. The only marks linking the case to Oswald's rifle were marks
from the magazine follower. As noted above, Case 543 could not have
obtained the marks from the magazine follower on 22 November, since
the last round in the clip must have been the unfired one in the
chamber. Furthermore, Commission Exhibit 543 lacks the characteristic
indentation on the side made by the firing chamber of Oswald's rifle.

Dr. E. Forrest Chapman, forensic pathologist, who in 1973 was given
access to the assassination materials in the National Archives, noted
that Case 543 was probably "dry loaded" into a rifle. Since the dent
was too large for the case to have contained a bullet on 22 November,
it was never fired from Oswald's rifle. The empty case, however, for
some unknown reason cold have been loaded into a rifle, the trigger
pulled, and the bolt operated. Dr. Chapman discovered this phenomenon
through experiments of his own.

Dr. Chapman also noted that Case 543 had a deeper and more concave
indentation on its base, at the primer, where the firing pin strikes
the case. Only empty cases exhibit such characteristics. The FBI also
reproduced the effect. Commission Exhibit 557 is a test cartridge
case, fired empty from Oswald's rifle by the FBI for ballistics
comparison purposes. It, too, contains the dent in the lip and deep
primer impression similar to Case 543.

Thus, the evidence proves conclusively that Commission Exhibit 543
could not have been fired from Oswald's rifle. . . . (Crime of the
Century, Knoxville: University of Tennessee Press, 1982, pp. 50-51,
emphasis added)

Based on Donahue's and Mills' and Kurtz's research, the dented shell
would appear to be hard evidence that more than one gunman fired at
President Kennedy, and hence that there was a conspiracy. However, a
few lone-gunman theorists insist they have similarly dented Carcano
shells and that they were able to use those shells to fire bullets. To
my knowledge, these single-assassin theorists did not videotape their
experiments, so there is no proof of their claims. The HSCA
experiments, which supposedly produced a number of similarly dented
shells that were able to fire bullets, weren't filmed, either.

-------------------------------------------------------
ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Michael T. Griffith holds a Master’s degree in
Theology from The Catholic Distance University, a Graduate Certificate
in Ancient and Classical History from American Military University, a
Bachelor’s degree in Liberal Arts from Excelsior College, and two
Associate in Applied Science degrees from the Community College of the
Air Force. He also holds an Advanced Certificate of Civil War Studies
and a Certificate of Civil War Studies from Carroll College. He is a
graduate in Arabic and Hebrew of the Defense Language Institute in
Monterey, California, and of the U.S. Air Force Technical Training
School in San Angelo, Texas. In addition, he has completed Advanced
Hebrew programs at Haifa University in Israel and at the Spiro
Institute in London, England. He is the author of five books on
Mormonism and ancient texts, including How Firm A Foundation, A Ready
Reply, and One Lord, One Faith. He is also the author of a book on
the JFK assassination titled Compelling Evidence (JFK Lancer, 1996).

John McAdams

2012-01-02 22:46:09 UTC

Permalink

Post by Raymond
Some researchers, including George Michael Evica, believe that a shot from
a pistol was fired into the air from behind the fence, on the Grassy
Knoll, to divert the attention of the crowd and the authorities away from
the TSBD to give the shooter time to fire the fatal shots at the president
and make his escape from the rear of the building. It worked.

Beautiful!

.John

--
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

Canuck

2012-01-03 02:06:47 UTC

Permalink

Post by Raymond
NUMBER OF SHOTS p 110 WR to the President
" ... The most convincing evidence relating to the number of shots was
provided by the presence on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges
which were demonstrated to have been fired by the same rifle that fired
the bullets which caused the wounds.It is possible that the assassin
carried an empty shell in the rifle and fired only two shots, with the
witnesses hearing multiple noises made by the same shot."
Most people say three. Supposedly, one (the first) shot missed, one shot
hit JFK in the neck, passed through Connally and became the alleged
magic-bullet. And the third was the fatal shot that hit the president in
the head.
The Warren Wizards said: "The consensus among the witnesses at the scene
was that three shots were fired. However, some heard only two shots. The
most convincing evidence relating to the number of shots was provided by
the presence on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges. This led the
Commission to conclude that there were three shots...." WR 110-111.
But, later they said, "The physical and other evidence examined by the
Commission compels the conclusion that AT LEAST TWO SHOTS WERE FIRED... It
is possible that the assassin carried an EMPTY SHELL IN THE RIFLE and
fired only two shots ...." WR 111
Summing up. One shot missed the car completely and there is no record of
recovering any of its remains. One shot allegedly passed through Kennedy
and Connally and magically remained NEAR (but not ) pristine and ended up
at Parkland Hospital.
This bullet weighed 161 grains before it was fired at the motorcade.
When recovered it weighed 158.6 grains which means that very little was
lost in its destructive journey.
A fragment weighing 0.5 grains was allegedly recovered from Connally's
arm.
Audrey Bell, the operating nurse, stated that there were four or five
fragments "anywhere from three to four millimeters in length and a couple
of millimeters wide. " These fragments disappeared at the later.: She
recalled receiving "three to five fragments, perhaps four" from the body
of Governor Connally, more than are currently in evidence...http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/ARRB_Medical_Interviews
In addition, what happened to the fragment found in Connally's leg
wound? Also, there was a fragment in the governor's chest that was never
recovered. He died with fragments still in his body that weighed more that
the alleged two to three missing grains from C-399 that was described as
NEAR pristine. (And the Warrens say, "The Governor's wrist wound WAS NOT
CAUSED BY A PRISTINE BULLET." p.94
So this leaves one bullet and it had to be the fatal projectile that
removed part of the president's skull and much of his brains.
After the coup, two bullet fragments were found in the Lincoln.
According to Warren , the two fragments weighed 44.6 and 21.0 grains
respectively."The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nose
area... the lighter fragment consisted of a bullet's base... the two
fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determine from
the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose of one
bullet or of two separate bullets."
If one bullet missed the car completely and one ended up at Parkland
almost (but not) pristine, the last bullet had to be the bullet that hit
JFK in the head and both fragments were from the same projectile.
I KINDA think that, with the angle of the neck shot, the above fragments
would remain in the car, ergo, the remains of the single bullet ,.... and
the head shot bullet probably ended up in tiny bits in Dealey Plaza.
Some say that Tague was hit by the first MISSED shot, but he heard shots
before he was hit by a very tiny fragment. So, he was probably hit by a
fragment from the third shot instead of the ALLEGED MISSED FIRST SHOT.http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol7/page552.php
I personally do not believe there was a missed shot. If I were the
master-mind of the coup, I would be sure to provide evidence that would
assure the connection to the rifle and its owner, And since I could not
rely on the future condition of the bullets actually fired at the
occupants of the limousine, I would fire a bullet through the barrel of
the murder weapon before 11-22-63 and be sure to leave it where it would
be found.
Enter Jack Ruby and the Parkland slug.
As Ass't DA Alexander said, "The single bullet is like the Immaculate
Conception. Either you believe it or you don't."
I do believe that a single bullet transited both men thus the single
bullet, but I will never believe that the Parkland bullet is one and the
same bullet. I believe that the JFK /Connally bullet remained in the car
and the Parkland bullet was planted on the wrong stretcher, at Parkland,
by Jack Ruby, when he failed to plant it in the limousine in Dealey Plaza
because the car went on to the hospital.
Some researchers, including George Michael Evica, believe that a shot from
a pistol was fired into the air from behind the fence, on the Grassy
Knoll, to divert the attention of the crowd and the authorities away from
the TSBD to give the shooter time to fire the fatal shots at the president
and make his escape from the rear of the building. It worked.
And, despite the testimonies putting Ruby in the Dallas Morning News, he
WAS in Dealey Plaza at the time of the shooting.
HARD EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY IN THE JFK ASSASSINATION?
Michael T. Griffith
2001
@All Rights Reserved
Second Edition
Revised on 4/26/2001
Could the dented bullet shell (CE 543) that was reportedly found next
to the sniper's window on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book
Depository Building (TSBD) have been used to fire a bullet on 22
November 1963, i.e., the day of the assassination? This is a crucial
question. Why? Because if that cartridge case couldn't have been used
to fire a bullet during the assassination, then there must have been
more than one gunman. According to ballistics and firearms expert
Howard Donahue, the dented shell could not have fired a bullet, as
It was true that three spent Carcano shells were found on the floor of
the Book Depository. . . . Yet one of the shells was dented and showed
numerous marks from the carrier, the large spring in the Carcano clip
that pushed the bullet up to the chamber. Donahue did not believe this
dented shell could have been used to fire a bullet that day. The gun
would not have functioned properly. (Mortal Error, New York: St.
Martin's Press, 1991, p. 114)
As mentioned, three shells were found in the sniper's nest, from which
the alleged lone gunman fired. But if one of those shells could not
have been used to fire a bullet during the shooting, then the sixth-
floor gunman could have only fired two shots. However, it's certain
that at least three shots were fired at President Kennedy. The single-
assassin theory demands that the alleged lone gunman fired three
shots. In other words, if the dented shell could not have been used to
fire a bullet at President Kennedy, then there must have been more
than one gunman.
Gerald Posner, author of the book Case Closed, says the House Select
Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) proved the dented shell could have
been dented this badly when it was ejected, and therefore that it
Another shell [of the three found on the sixth floor] was dented on
the rim, raising doubts that it could have been fired from a rifle in
that condition. In experiments by the House Select Committee, rapid
firing of the Carcano resulted in some shells being dented in the
exact same location upon ejection (HSCA, Vol. 1, pp. 435, 454, 534).
(Case Closed, New York: Random House, 1992, p. 270)
I asked Howard Donahue about Posner's assertion. Donahue was a court-
certified firearms expert and a world-class marksman. He was invited
to participate in the famous 1967 CBS rifle test and achieved the best
score of the simulation. He testified in several cases as an expert
witness on firearms issues. Here is what Donahue said about Posner's
Dear Mike: Sept. 11, 1996
Concerning the case with the damaged lip. Posner claims it could have
held a projectile at that time. Let me explain something about Posner.
He will tell you anything to make a point. There were no shells dented
in that manner by the HSCA. I will refer you to Professor Thompson's
book, Six Seconds in Dallas, page 144, exhibit no. 543. Dr. Thompson
discovered this case had been fired (dry fired) at least three times.
He also tried to dent the cases by throwing them against a wall, to no
avail. Just to prove this, I am enclosing a fired 6.5 mm Carcano case.
Throw it around any way you wish and try to dent it. These cases are
very strong. It could have only been dented by feeding the case into
the breech of the gun with great force. This would be from the
clip. . . .
In closing, I have never seen a case dented like this. Dr. Thompson
never saw any cases so deformed. So Posner says the HSCA had several
empties dented like these???
Thanks for your interest--please keep in touch.
Howard Donahue, Firearms Examiner
British researcher Chris Mills likewise has concluded the dented shell
could not have been used to fire a bullet during the assassination, as
a result of his own experiments with a Carcano rifle. I quote from an
Ian Griggs has forwarded a posting which you wrote for the
jfk.sharegroup. In this you discuss the dented shell casing.
Ian forwarded this on to me because of my recent experiments with my
own Mannlicher Carcano. Quite by accident I recently dented a shell in
exactly the same manner as that which is shown in the photographs
showing the shell purportedly found on the sixth floor.
My M/C [Mannlicher-Carcano rifle] is deactivated and I was
experimenting with empty shells. The very first one produced the dent
on the rim. I had to repeat the operation about 60 more times before
the results were reproduced.
But the damage was exactly the same. It seems that when using a hull
that has previously been fired, the lip of the case expands slightly
and can catch on a lip below the barrel opening in the breech. This
can only happen with an empty case that has already been fired and
even then only occasionally.
This means that at least one of the cartridge cases found on 11.22.63
was not fired from that window.
In a subsequent message, Mills elaborated on his statement that one of
the cartridge cases found in the sixth-floor sniper's nest could not
One of the cases [of the three reportedly removed from the sniper's
nest] was found with an inward facing dent on the lip of the casing.
This could not have happened before a missile left the shell as the
dent would preclude the shell actually holding the bullet. It must
have occurred at some time after this particular shell was fired.
Several researchers have tried to duplicate the damage by standing on
the case, throwing it against walls, etc., but to no avail. The case
cannot be similarly damaged by loading a live round into the chamber
either, as it is protected and guided into the breech by the bullet
itself.
What I found, by accident, is that similar damage can be caused by
loading an empty case into the weapon. It appeared to me that the more
times this was attempted, the more likely the damage was to occur.
This led me to the apparent conclusion that unless the person in the
6th floor fired the weapon, ejected the shell, picked it up and then
reloaded it (a pointless activity, as I'm sure you will agree), this
particular case had been fired at some earlier time, then reloaded
empty, probably several times. I consider that this is what caused the
damage.
This left me wondering why (a) practice with an empty shell case? and
(b) why leave an extra case behind?
Question A: At first I thought it may be to practice with the weapon
but I guess that would be just as effective without a shell case in. I
now think it more likely that the empty case was fed through several
times in order that it could be matched (by scratch marks on its
surface) to the M/C, whether or not the original bullet was really
fired from that weapon.
Which brings me to Question B: As I said in my last letter, if you
plant a missile which is supposed to have come from the murder weapon,
you must have a shell casing to go with it at the murder scene. If
not, more missiles may turn up than cases found. Hence the dumped
case, whoever did it being unaware of the damage to its lip.
Dr. Michael Kurtz says there's no doubt that CE 543, i.e., the dented
shell, could not have fired a bullet on the day of the assassination,
and, moreover, that it could not have been fired from the rifle that
The third cartridge case, Commission Exhibit 543, contained a dent in
the opening so large that it could not have held a bullet in it. . . .
In a letter to the Warren Commission of 2 June 1964, J. Edgar Hoover
noted that Commission Exhibit 543 (FBI Number C6), the case with the
dent, had "three sets of marks on the base of this cartridge case
which were not found [on the other casings]." The case, according to
Hoover, had also been loaded into and extracted from a weapon three
times. The only marks linking the case to Oswald's rifle were marks
from the magazine follower. As noted above, Case 543 could not have
obtained the marks from the magazine follower on 22 November, since
the last round in the clip must have been the unfired one in the
chamber. Furthermore, Commission Exhibit 543 lacks the characteristic
indentation on the side made by the firing chamber of Oswald's rifle.
Dr. E. Forrest Chapman, forensic pathologist, who in 1973 was given
access to the assassination materials in the National Archives, noted
that Case 543 was probably "dry loaded" into a rifle. Since the dent
was too large for the case to have contained a bullet on 22 November,
it was never fired from Oswald's rifle. The empty case, however, for
some unknown reason cold have been loaded into a rifle, the trigger
pulled, and the bolt operated. Dr. Chapman discovered this phenomenon
through experiments of his own.
Dr. Chapman also noted that Case 543 had a deeper and more concave
indentation on its base, at the primer, where the firing pin strikes
the case. Only empty cases exhibit such characteristics. The FBI also
reproduced the effect. Commission Exhibit 557 is a test cartridge
case, fired empty from Oswald's rifle by the FBI for ballistics
comparison purposes. It, too, contains the dent in the lip and deep
primer impression similar to Case 543.
Thus, the evidence proves conclusively that Commission Exhibit 543
could not have been fired from Oswald's rifle. . . . (Crime of the
Century, Knoxville: University of Tennessee Press, 1982, pp. 50-51,
emphasis added)
Based on Donahue's and Mills' and Kurtz's research, the dented shell
would appear to be hard evidence that more than one gunman fired at
President Kennedy, and hence that there was a conspiracy. However, a
few lone-gunman theorists insist they have similarly dented Carcano
shells and that they were able to use those shells to fire bullets. To
my knowledge, these single-assassin theorists did not videotape their
experiments, so there is no proof of their claims. The HSCA
experiments, which supposedly produced a number of similarly dented
shells that were able to fire bullets, weren't filmed, either.
-------------------------------------------------------
ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Michael T. Griffith holds a Master’s degree in
Theology from The Catholic Distance University, a Graduate Certificate
in Ancient and Classical History from American Military University, a
Bachelor’s degree in Liberal Arts from Excelsior College, and two
Associate in Applied Science degrees from the Community College of the
Air Force. He also holds an Advanced Certificate of Civil War Studies
and a Certificate of Civil War Studies from Carroll College. He is a
graduate in Arabic and Hebrew of the Defense Language Institute in
Monterey, California, and of the U.S. Air Force Technical Training
School in San Angelo, Texas. In addition, he has completed Advanced
Hebrew programs at Haifa University in Israel and at the Spiro
Institute in London, England. He is the author of five books on
Mormonism and ancient texts, including How Firm A Foundation, A Ready
Reply, and One Lord, One Faith. He is also the author of a book on
the JFK assassination titled Compelling Evidence (JFK Lancer, 1996).

The Dallas Police inventory list included two spent shells retrieved from
the sixth floor. One of the photos taken at the scene, indeed, shows two.
A third dented shell was forwarded to the FBI by Fritz several days after
Nov. 22.

As for the M-C clip, Oswald decided against purchasing 100 rounds of
ammunition, which came with a free clip, and, yet, a clip was attached to
the rifle. As for the ammunition used, the FBI, after an extensive
effort, could not determine where it had been purchased. - Peter R.
Whitmey

Raymond

2012-01-03 14:07:06 UTC

Permalink

Post by Canuck

The Dallas Police inventory list included two spent shells retrieved from
the sixth floor. One of the photos taken at the scene, indeed, shows two.
A third dented shell was forwarded to the FBI by Fritz several days after
Nov. 22.
As for the M-C clip, Oswald decided against purchasing 100 rounds of
ammunition, which came with a free clip, and, yet, a clip was attached to
the rifle. As for the ammunition used, the FBI, after an extensive
effort, could not determine where it had been purchased. - Peter R.
Whitmey

Apparently LHO bought more ammo thatn four rounds used in the coup
since some testimony implied that he practiced firing the MC. And
Marina testified that " he shot at leaves in the park. " ?????

Right Peter.. "the FBI, after an extensive effort, could not determine
where it had been purchased."

No doubt the reason that Lee did not buy the ammunition from Kleins
was several:

Some researchers wondered why LHO did not buy his ammo from Klein's.
It could be that Klein's policy warned buyers that "Hand gun orders,
and orders with ammo, are shipped express, charges collect. " Surely,
Lee knew that he could get ammo in Dallas without the express shipping
and the charges. Also. I also feel sure that Lee knew about the aging
Italian ammo and the misfires, and also knew about the better Western
ammo.

The Italian ammo was all military loaded and not desired by hunters,
so many dealers reloaded the shells with soft point projectiles.

The Italian MC ammo came in preloaded clips. This ammo quickly
disappeared and these casings could not be reloaded because all ammo,
other than American, used the Berdan primer. All Western had the
American Boxer primer. Because so many MCs were sold in America,
there was a need for Carcano rounds, and since none was being
manufactured, a company in Sweden, NORMA by name, began selling 6.5 mm
ammo to Carcano owners.

The NORMA ammo contained a "soft-point" bullet and it used the Boxer
primer, so the consumer could do his own reloading. The round is
identifiable by the Norma name on the bottom of the shell rim, along
with the 6.5 mm marking

'Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; an argument an exchange of
ignorance.'
--- Robert Quillen

Friend to the news groups, WALT, claimed that the MC could not be
used as a single shot weapon.

Wrong Walt. It is possible to use the MC as a single shot weapon.

Mr. Eisenberg.
Mr. Frazier, will you give your name and position?
Mr. Frazier.
Robert A. Frazier, Special Agent, Federal Bureau of Investigation,
assigned to the FBI Laboratory, Washington, D.C. We examine ammunition
of various types to identify it as to its caliber, its specific
designation, and the type or types of weapons in which it can be
fired, and we make comparisons of bullets to determine whether or not
• they were fired from a particular weapon and make comparisons of
cartridge cases for the purpose of determining whether or not they
were fired in a particular weapon, or for determining whether or not
they had been loaded into or extracted from a particular weapon. That
training course lasted forapproximately 1 year. However, of course,
the experience in firearms is actually part of the training and
continues for the entire time in which you are engaged in examining
firearms. Briefly, that is the summary of the firearms training I have
had.
Mr. Eisenberg.
Could you estimate the number of examinations you have made of
firearms to identify the firearms?
Mr. Frazier.
Thousands, I would say--firearms comparisons--I have made in the
neighborhood of 50,000 to 60,000.
Mr. Mccloy.
Have you written any articles on this subject?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes. I have predated an article for the "FBI Law Enforcement
Bulletin" on firearms identification, which is published as a reprint
and provided to any organization or person interested in the general
field of firearms identification.
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page391.php

Mr. Mccloy.
Can you use that rifle without the clip?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes; you can.
Mr. Mccloy.
What is the advantage of the clip?
Mr. Frazier.
It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one
shot at a time.
Mr. Mccloy.
The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; one shot at a time.
Mr. Mccloy.
When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with
the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir.
Mr. McCloy.
The same as the .30-06?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page398.php

MC Ammo, Clips and Primers

After WWII, Albania was the only European nation to go Communist
without having been invaded by the Soviet Union. It was also Europe's
poorest country and the only one with a Muslim majority. As a result,
it became part of the American policy to assist Italy in the
destruction of the Albanian government. Italy had occupied Albania
throughout WWII.

On March 23, 1964, Mr. R. W. Botts, District Manager, Winchester-
Western Division of Olin, told the FBI that the Western Cartridge
Company had manufactured a quantity of 6.5 mm Mannlicher Carcano
ammunition for the Italian Government during WWII." At the end of the
war the Italian Carcano rifle, and no telling how much of this type
ammunition, was sold to the United States gun brokers and dealers and
was eventually distributed by direct sales to wholesalers, retailers,
and individual purchasers." (CE.No.2694)

By the time that the US decided to overthrow the Hoxha government,
there was very little Italian ammo for MC's left in Italy, so Western
was contracted to supply the necessary ammo. When the attempt failed,
the ammo was put into storage . It reappeared when the plans were in
progress to invade Cuba. Both the surplus rifles and Italian ammo were
used as well as some of the Western ammo.

John Masen, owner of Masen's Gun Shop, in Dallas, bought 10 boxes of
Western ammo from John Brinegar, owner of The Gun Shop, also in
Dallas. He sold the 10 boxes to individuals. All of this ammo had a
military load. Later, in the summer of 1963, he bought 10 more boxes
of Western from Brinegar. Since this ammo was used mostly for deer
hunting, he "pulled" the bullets in the last batch and reloaded it
with a hunting type bullet (lead nose). Brinegar testified that "the
6.5 mm rifle was rather common in the Dallas area and he felt that the
larger gun dealers, pawn shops, sporting goods, and H.L.Green Company
Stores would have handled the 6.5 mm MC Western ammo, as he recalled
seeing ads for this 6.5 western ammo."
( CE Ex. No. 2694.)

Al Yeargan, who was manager of the fourth floor Gun Dept. , at
Green's, testified that he sold both the rifle and the Italian ammo,
but never did sell any of the Western ammo.

I also often wondered why LHO did not buy his 6.5 ammo from Klein's.
I believe that it was because of the warning in the coupon itself, and
elsewhere in the full page Klein's ad
"Handgun orders, and orders with ammo, are shipped express, charges
collect."

So, even if Lee had ordered ammo, at the same time he ordered the
rifle, the items would have been shipped separately. Hand guns and
ammunition were not shipped via U.S. Mail. This is why Seaport Traders
shipped LHOs 38 to Railway Express on Houston Street. All the ads in
the gun magazines advised the customer of that fact.
Notes on specific shippers:

Shipping Your Firearm
US Mail: An unlicensed person can ship a rifle or shotgun by US Mail.
Unlicensed persons cannot ship a handgun by US Mail. Postal
regulations allow the Post Office to open your package for inspection.
Ammunition cannot be shipped by US Mail. You can search the US Post
Offer Postal Explorer site for specific USPS regulations regarding
firearms and ammunition.

FedEx: FedEx will only ship firearms via their Priority Overnight
service. Ammunition must be shipped as dangerous goods.

UPS: UPS will accept handgun shipments by Next Day Air only. Rifles
and shotguns can be shipped by UPS ground service. UPS will accept
shipments of ammunition. UPS does not allow shipment of firearms FROM
an unlicensed person (even to an FFL), unless the stated reason for
the firearm shipment is for repair or modifications.

Most other shippers will no longer accept firearm shipments. Airborne
and Roadway have specifically prohibited firearm shipments

FROM UPS WEB SITE:
You must ship your packages that contain handguns with UPS Next Day
Air Early A.M. , UPS Next Day Air , or UPS Next Day Air Saver services
Your packages that contain firearms will not be accepted for shipment
at UPS Drop Boxes, with UPS SonicAir service, at locations of The UPS
Store or any third-party retailer, or with international services.
When you are shipping your package that contains a firearm with UPS,
you must affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon
delivery. Hub ... also known as UPS Customer Centers are staffed
shipping centers located on-site at UPS operating facilities
nationwide, equipped to assist you with any UPS international, air or
ground package shipment.
FIND LOCATIONS

Note: Anthony Marsh reminded me that these FED X regulations may not
have been the law in 1963 and he is correct.

I have the postal regulations for the period of 1963 but will take
some time to digest the regulations. Will get to later and answer
then. I think they have CHANGED LITTLE regarding HAND GUNS and
ammunition Big time changes in RIFLES and other military type
ordnance resulted from political assassinations

The company was founded as Federal Express in 1972 by U.S. Marine Fred
Smith in Little Rock, Arkansas, but moved to Memphis, Tennessee in
1973 after Little Rock airport officials would not agree to provide
facilities for the fledgling airline. The name was chosen to symbolize
a national marketplace, and help in obtaining government contracts.
The company officially began operations on April 17, 1973, utilizing a
network of 14 Dassault Falcon 20s which connected 25 U.S. cities

UPS:
In 1907, 19-year-old Jim Casey founded the American Messenger Company
in Seattle, Washington with $100 borrowed from a friend. In 1913, Jim
Casey and Evert McCabe agreed to merge. Merchants Parcel Delivery was
formed and focused on packages. In 1919, the company expanded beyond
Seattle and changed their name to United Parcel Service.

1913: The first delivery car appeared, a Model T Ford.

FROM FEDEX WEB SITE:
Firearms FedEx Express can only accept and deliver firearms between
areas served in the U.S. under the following conditions: (1) you agree
to tender shipments of firearms to us only when either the shipper or
recipient is a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed
dealer or licensed collector and is not prohibited from making such
shipments by local, state or federal regulations;

(2) the shipper and recipient must be of legal age as identified by
applicable state law.

Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service. FedEx
cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D. or with a signature release.
Upon presenting the package for shipment, the person tendering the
shipment to FedEx is required to notify the FedEx employee who accepts
the package that the package contains a firearm. The outside of the
package must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the
package contains a firearm. Firearms shipments cannot be placed in a
FedEx Express Drop Box.

You also agree not to ship firearms loaded or with ammunition in the
same package. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped
separately as dangerous goods. The shipper and recipient are required
to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws,
including those pertaining to labeling. The Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives can provide assistance. FIND
LOCATIONS (Fedex Staffed ONLY)

SEE The Marketing of a Weapon
BY GARY NIVAGGI
All from the pages of AMERICAN RIFLEMAN approx. 250 pg
This catalog contains material gathered from the pages of "AMERICAN
RIFLEMAN " from 1958-1964.

PART I: Klein's Sporting Goods
PART II: Other Distributors and Dealers
PART III: Articles, questions, etc

Also Includes Ad used by Harvey Lee Oswald to purchase 6.5 mm Italian
Carbine Mannlicher-Carcano used in JFK assassination AND great
information on rifle clips, powder, cartridges, etc.

The Warren Commission said:
Revolver Traced to Oswald

Claim:

FBI investigation determined that the .38 Special Smith and Wesson
revolver, serial number V510210, taken from Lee Harvey Oswald WAS
SHIPPED on March 20, 1963, from George Rose and Company, Incorporated,
Los Angeles, California, to A. J. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915,
Dallas, Texas. The cost of the weapon was $29.95. Examination by the
FBI Laboratory determined that the writing on the mail order coupon
used in the purchase of this weapon was written by Lee Harvey Oswald

The handgun was not shipped to PO Box 2915, Dallas Texas. Heinz W.
Michaelis, office manager of both George Rose & Co., Inc.,.... and
Seaport Traders, Inc., identified their records, which showed that a ".
38 S and W Special two-inch Commando, serial number V510210" was
shipped on March 20, 1963, to A. J. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915,
Dallas, Tex.

The invoice was prepared on March 13, 1963; the revolver was actually
shipped on March 20 by Railway Express. The balance due on the
purchase was $19.95.

Oswald had to cross town to pick up his handgun at the Railway Express
Office.

Michaelis furnished the shipping copy of the invoice, and the RAILWAY
EXPRESS AGENCY shipping documents, showing that $19.95, plus $1.27
shipping charge, had been collected from the consignee, Hidell. (See
Michaelis Exhibits Nos. 2, 4, 5, p. 173.) Handwriting experts, Alwyn
Cole of the Treasury Department and James C. Cadigan of the FBI,
testified before the Commission that the writing on the coupon was
Oswald's. The signature of the witness, D. F. Drittal, who attested
that the fictitious Hidell was an American citizen and had not been
convicted of a felony, was also in Oswald's handwriting.

In 1968, after five years of debate on firearms control, Congress
passed a Gun Control Act designed to "provide support to Federal,
State, and local law enforcement officials in their fight against
crime and violence."[1] This paper reports on an effort to study the
impact of the Gun Control Act on the problems that prompted its
passage. The study is of possible interest for two reasons.

First, it is an attempt to increase our rather modest knowledge of the
effects of governmental efforts to control firearms violence. In
recent years the rate of gun violence in the United States has managed
to grow to alarming proportions without the benefit of sustained
academic attention.[2] The 1968 Act--the only major change in federal
policy since 1938¾seems a natural place to look for clues about the
effects of gun controls. And the need for knowledge in this area seems
obvious, inasmuch as controversy is rampant and new federal
legislative proposals are almost a weekly Washington event.

Second, the study is an effort to gain some perspective on the
difficulties [Page 134] and promise of empirical studies of "legal
impact." Over the past few years, studies attempting to assess the
impact of legislation have begun to occupy an important place in law-
related scholarship.[3] Diverse both in subject matter[4] and
methodology, these studies are motivated by the hope that they will
build toward a deeper understanding of law as an instrument of social
control.[5]

http://www.saf.org/lawreviews/zimring68.htm

John McAdams

2012-01-03 17:05:47 UTC

Permalink

Post by Canuck

Post by Raymond
NUMBER OF SHOTS p 110 WR to the President

No, the photos show three spend cartridges.

You have posted a factoid, Peter.

Post by Canuck
As for the M-C clip, Oswald decided against purchasing 100 rounds of
ammunition, which came with a free clip, and, yet, a clip was attached to
the rifle. As for the ammunition used, the FBI, after an extensive
effort, could not determine where it had been purchased. - Peter R.
Whitmey

So what?

.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

Canuck

2012-01-04 14:21:04 UTC

Permalink

Post by John McAdams

Post by Canuck

Post by Raymond
NUMBER OF SHOTS p 110 WR to the President

No, the photos show three spend cartridges.
You have posted a factoid, Peter.

I recall when looking at the photos in the Warren volumes that one of
them showed only two spent shells, while the other showed three. And
the Dallas inventory records listed only two!!! - Peter R. Whitmey

Post by John McAdams

So what?
.John
--------------http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

How was the clip obtained if Oswald chose not to purchase 100 rounds
of ammo.?

- Peter R. Whitmey

Raymond

2012-01-08 15:20:00 UTC

Permalink

Post by John McAdams

Post by Canuck

Post by Raymond
NUMBER OF SHOTS p 110 WR to the President

No, the photos show three spend cartridges.

"By the end of the year, with the formation of the Warren Commission,
the combination of a missed shot, the rapidity of the two shots that
struck JFK and Connally in their backs, the apparent throat wound and
violent backwards movement of JFK after the head shot, all were
creating a problem, if the entire shooting was to be pinned on
Oswald . It should also be noted that the Dallas Police inventory list
had only included two spent shells retrieved from the sixth floor and
one of two photos taken at the scene, indeed, showed two casings. A
third one, also found on the floor, but not forwarded to the FBI by
the Dallas police chief for several days, had a dent in it, unlike the
others.."
--- DECEPTION AND DECEIT: MEDIA COVERAGE OF JFK’S ASSASSINATION
Peter R. Whitmey
Abbotsford, BC
Nov. 4, 2003

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the_critics/Whitmey/Deception.html

Post by John McAdams
You have posted a factoid, Peter.

So what?
.John
--------------http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

Bill Clarke

2012-01-03 15:58:06 UTC

Permalink

In article <a3bc23c8-7cb4-44bd-b646-***@k29g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
Raymond says...

Possible but not probable. I don?t think a Marine with weapons training
would do that. It is not a good practice to leave the brass in the
chamber.

Post by Raymond
Summing up. One shot missed the car completely and there is no record of
recovering any of its remains. One shot allegedly passed through Kennedy
and Connally and magically remained NEAR (but not ) pristine and ended up
at Parkland Hospital.
This bullet weighed 161 grains before it was fired at the motorcade.
When recovered it weighed 158.6 grains which means that very little was
lost in its destructive journey.
A fragment weighing 0.5 grains was allegedly recovered from Connally's
arm.
Audrey Bell, the operating nurse, stated that there were four or five
fragments "anywhere from three to four millimeters in length and a couple
of millimeters wide. " These fragments disappeared at the later.: She
recalled receiving "three to five fragments, perhaps four" from the body
of Governor Connally, more than are currently in evidence...
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/ARRB_Medical_Interviews
In addition, what happened to the fragment found in Connally's leg
wound? Also, there was a fragment in the governor's chest that was never
recovered. He died with fragments still in his body that weighed more that
the alleged two to three missing grains from C-399 that was described as
NEAR pristine. (And the Warrens say, "The Governor's wrist wound WAS NOT
CAUSED BY A PRISTINE BULLET." p.94
So this leaves one bullet and it had to be the fatal projectile that
removed part of the president's skull and much of his brains.
After the coup, two bullet fragments were found in the Lincoln.
According to Warren , the two fragments weighed 44.6 and 21.0 grains
respectively."The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nose
area... the lighter fragment consisted of a bullet's base... the two
fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determine from
the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose of one
bullet or of two separate bullets."
If one bullet missed the car completely and one ended up at Parkland
almost (but not) pristine, the last bullet had to be the bullet that hit
JFK in the head and both fragments were from the same projectile.
I KINDA think that, with the angle of the neck shot, the above fragments
would remain in the car, ergo, the remains of the single bullet ,.... and
the head shot bullet probably ended up in tiny bits in Dealey Plaza.
Some say that Tague was hit by the first MISSED shot, but he heard shots
before he was hit by a very tiny fragment. So, he was probably hit by a
fragment from the third shot instead of the ALLEGED MISSED FIRST SHOT.
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol7/page552.php
I personally do not believe there was a missed shot. If I were the
master-mind of the coup, I would be sure to provide evidence that would
assure the connection to the rifle and its owner, And since I could not
rely on the future condition of the bullets actually fired at the
occupants of the limousine, I would fire a bullet through the barrel of
the murder weapon before 11-22-63 and be sure to leave it where it would
be found.
Enter Jack Ruby and the Parkland slug.
As Ass't DA Alexander said, "The single bullet is like the Immaculate
Conception. Either you believe it or you don't."
I do believe that a single bullet transited both men thus the single
bullet, but I will never believe that the Parkland bullet is one and the
same bullet. I believe that the JFK /Connally bullet remained in the car
and the Parkland bullet was planted on the wrong stretcher, at Parkland,
by Jack Ruby, when he failed to plant it in the limousine in Dealey Plaza
because the car went on to the hospital.
Some researchers, including George Michael Evica, believe that a shot from
a pistol was fired into the air from behind the fence, on the Grassy
Knoll, to divert the attention of the crowd and the authorities away from
the TSBD to give the shooter time to fire the fatal shots at the president
and make his escape from the rear of the building. It worked.
And, despite the testimonies putting Ruby in the Dallas Morning News, he
WAS in Dealey Plaza at the time of the shooting.
HARD EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY IN THE JFK ASSASSINATION?
Michael T. Griffith
2001
@All Rights Reserved
Second Edition
Revised on 4/26/2001
Could the dented bullet shell (CE 543) that was reportedly found next
to the sniper's window on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book
Depository Building (TSBD) have been used to fire a bullet on 22
November 1963, i.e., the day of the assassination? This is a crucial
question. Why? Because if that cartridge case couldn't have been used
to fire a bullet during the assassination, then there must have been
more than one gunman. According to ballistics and firearms expert
Howard Donahue, the dented shell could not have fired a bullet, as
It was true that three spent Carcano shells were found on the floor of
the Book Depository. . . . Yet one of the shells was dented and showed
numerous marks from the carrier, the large spring in the Carcano clip
that pushed the bullet up to the chamber. Donahue did not believe this
dented shell could have been used to fire a bullet that day. The gun
would not have functioned properly. (Mortal Error, New York: St.
Martin's Press, 1991, p. 114)
As mentioned, three shells were found in the sniper's nest, from which
the alleged lone gunman fired. But if one of those shells could not
have been used to fire a bullet during the shooting, then the sixth-
floor gunman could have only fired two shots. However, it's certain
that at least three shots were fired at President Kennedy. The single-
assassin theory demands that the alleged lone gunman fired three
shots. In other words, if the dented shell could not have been used to
fire a bullet at President Kennedy, then there must have been more
than one gunman.
Gerald Posner, author of the book Case Closed, says the House Select
Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) proved the dented shell could have
been dented this badly when it was ejected, and therefore that it

That is correct. Marsh often argues that only a jammed rifle would
produce this bent lip but other things can cause a dented lip. I have
seen this myself numerous occasions and I believe it was Jean Davis that
furnished Marsh a reference on the ejector causing this bent lip.

Bill Clarke

Raymond

2012-01-07 17:17:29 UTC

Permalink

Post by Bill Clarke
Raymond says...

Possible but not probable. I don?t think a Marine with weapons training
would do that. It is not a good practice to leave the brass in the
chamber.

Apples and oranges. Oswald was trained on an M1 and it automatically
ejects the cartridge. The Mannlicher-Carcano is a bolt action and if you
are in a hurry you might forget and not eject the empty. It doesn't hurt a
piece of junk like his rifle.