Complete Salish conference procedings free online

Post by Trond Engen
Since I can't be bothered to retrieve the subthresd where David and
Arnaud discussed American West Coast languages, and since it probably
deserves its own thread anyway, let it be known that my eyes just fell
| University of British Columbia Working Papers in Linguistics (UBCWPL)
| would like to announce that the complete set of ICSNL precedings
| (1967-2012) is now available online free of charge at
|
| <http://www.linguistics.ubc.ca/icsnl/index>
|
| This is an indispensible resource on Salish, Wakashan, and other
| language families of the Pacific Northwest.
(The Kinkade Collection: the On-Line Archive of Papers for the
International Conference on Salish (and Neighbo(u)ring) Languages)
--
Trond Engen
- cursory reader of LinguistList

Thanks for the link!

JohnK

DKleinecke

2013-01-11 02:05:32 UTC

Thanks for thinking of us and supplying the link. I am only shallowly
interested in California Languages (and that mostly because of being a
Californian - not native, I came when I was one year old). My long
time field of study is South American languages (and Cushitic when I
want a holiday)

The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army

2013-01-12 17:25:31 UTC

Franz must be jubilant now that he has a lot of material on what he
calls the Red Injun languages, to build new Magdalenian hypotheses on.

DKleinecke

2013-01-13 02:56:24 UTC

Post by The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army

On Jan 12, 9:25 am, The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army

Franz must be jubilant now that he has a lot of material on what he
calls the Red Injun languages, to build new Magdalenian hypotheses on.

He will be disappointed when I do not reply. I don't read his posts.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-13 10:14:31 UTC

Seems I have to blow some fresh air in the embers
of this thread. Here my etymology of the Salish word
for bird, via a long Magdalenian chain of words and
derivatives. I rely on the result of a recent genetical
study: several tribes left the Altai Mountains in Siberia
13,000 years ago, wandered eastward, ventured along
the Beringia into Alaska, spread from there, and slowly
populated the Americas. The affinities of Indo-European
and Sibero-American including Wintun and Salish
are best explained via an old substratum, a widespread
language of Eurasia in the Ice Age the fully developed
form of which I call Magdalenian, which is also an
archaeological term for a civilization that covered
Eurasia from the Franco-Cantabrian space in the west
to Malta near Irkutsk on Lake Baikal in the east.

Salish for bird

Magdalenian named a variety of animals in the form of
P vowel C yielding words for horse and smaller animals
and birds.

PAC means horse. AS PAC Avestan aspa Sanskrit asva,
- upward AS horse PAC - originally named small pony-like
horses carrying loads up a hill or mountain on the their
back, consider also packhorse, pack mule, pack animal.
Emphatic PAC AS AS Greek Pegasos Latin Pegasus,
a winged horse - horse up up - originally personified
the hot summer wind Afghanetz blowing from the Aral
Sea along the Amu Darya to the Hindukush. (The banks
of the Amu Darya were the first Indo-European homeland,
center Termez - Kunduz - Kurgan T'upe, later Bactria
of the Greeks, famous for horses, PAC in Bac-tria.
From the second and third IE homelands east and west
of the Rha Volga - from the Uralic and Pontic steppes -
came a phonetically close but semantically different
compound, AC PAS *h1ekwos hippos equus Epona,
expanse of land with water AC everywhere in a plain PAS
- riding a horse you can get everywhere PAS on earth AC)

PEC named smaller animals, ibex German Steinbock,
French biche 'hind', English pig, Latin pecus 'cattle'
of smaller size, mainly sheep and goats and pigs,
while pecunia 'money' named a silver ingot worth a cow
and decorated with the image of a cow, Italian vacca

PIC named a bird and a beak French bec Italian becco,
and accounts for pick and peck German picken French
piquer, also for French pic English woodpeck German
Specht. Italian ucello 'bird' lost the intitial P which is
preseverd in piccolo 'small' that may originally have
referred to small and very light birds like for example
a sparrow German Spatz, the latter an accentuated
version of the P vowel C formula justified by the great
number of these birds that follow people everywhere.
Latin avis 'bird' may suggest this development

PIC aPIC aviC avIs

and German Vogel 'bird' this one

PIC PoC voC vog el

A metaphorical peak is present in a Mountain Peak
German Bergspitze (analogous accentuation as in
Spatz 'sparrow') Italian Pizzo (while a pizza is cut up
in beak-like pieces) Rumantg Piz. An Etruscan netvis
Roman haruspex foretold the future from observing
lightnings and the flight of birds and the liver of
sacrificed animals, one of the books of divination
having been called liber haruspicini that may go back
to AAR RAA PIC meaning: in the air AAR and light
RAA fly the birds PIC that speak to us in the pictures
and patterns they form in the sky ... Also a shaman
or a shamaness of the Salish in California may have
observed birds, especially in the hills and mountains,
near a beak of rock, a Peak Pizzo Piz, the general
Salish word for bird containing PIC in the form of -pz-
(my apology for not giving the entire word, the notations
of Salish are so complicated that I can't reproduce them
on the keybord of a public webstation).

Yusuf B Gursey

2013-01-13 10:44:36 UTC

Seems I have to blow some fresh air in the embers

from which end?

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
of this thread. Here my etymology of the Salish word
for bird, via a long Magdalenian chain of words and
derivatives. I rely on the result of a recent genetical
study: several tribes left the Altai Mountains in Siberia
13,000 years ago, wandered eastward, ventured along
the Beringia into Alaska, spread from there, and slowly
populated the Americas. The affinities of Indo-European
and Sibero-American including Wintun and Salish
are best explained via an old substratum, a widespread
language of Eurasia in the Ice Age the fully developed
form of which I call Magdalenian, which is also an
archaeological term for a civilization that covered
Eurasia from the Franco-Cantabrian space in the west
to Malta near Irkutsk on Lake Baikal in the east.

johnk

2013-01-13 22:06:47 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A metaphorical peak is present in a Mountain Peak
German Bergspitze (analogous accentuation as in
Spatz 'sparrow') Italian Pizzo (while a pizza is cut up
in beak-like pieces) Rumantg Piz. An Etruscan netvis
Roman haruspex foretold the future from observing
lightnings and the flight of birds and the liver of
sacrificed animals, one of the books of divination
having been called liber haruspicini that may go back
to AAR RAA PIC meaning: in the air AAR and light
RAA fly the birds PIC that speak to us in the pictures
and patterns they form in the sky ... Also a shaman
or a shamaness of the Salish in California may have
observed birds, especially in the hills and mountains,
near a beak of rock, a Peak Pizzo Piz, the general
Salish word for bird containing PIC in the form of -pz-
(my apology for not giving the entire word, the notations
of Salish are so complicated that I can't reproduce them
on the keybord of a public webstation).

Wrong. The general term for bird in Salish is ɬxʷixʷeyuɬ which doesn't fit your pattern at all.
Of course, I need to explain to you (since you are an idiot) that there is a language referred to as Salish (spoken in Montana) and a Salish language family which is usually referred to as Salishan. Since you referred to a word in Salish I can only assume you are referring to the Salish language.
Why do you put them in California? The Salishan languages are spoken in the Pacific Northwest of North America (Washington, Idaho, Montana, British Columbia, etc) What Salishan language are you referring to in California?

JohnK

Arnaud F.

2013-01-13 22:12:18 UTC

Post by johnk
Wrong. The general term for bird in Salish is ɬxʷixʷeyuɬ which doesn't fit your pattern at all.
Of course, I need to explain to you (since you are an idiot) that there is a language referred to as Salish (spoken in Montana) and a Salish language family which is usually referred to as Salishan. Since you referred to a word in Salish I can only assume you are referring to the Salish language.
Why do you put them in California? The Salishan languages are spoken in the Pacific Northwest of North America (Washington, Idaho, Montana, British Columbia, etc) What Salishan language are you referring to in California?
JohnK

***

First try to explain him what a language is.

A.

pauljk

2013-01-14 03:39:05 UTC

Post by johnk
Wrong. The general term for bird in Salish is ɬxʷixʷeyuɬ which doesn't fit your
pattern at all.
Of course, I need to explain to you (since you are an idiot) that there is a
language referred to as Salish (spoken in Montana) and a Salish language family
which is usually referred to as Salishan. Since you referred to a word in Salish I
can only assume you are referring to the Salish language.
Why do you put them in California? The Salishan languages are spoken in the
Pacific Northwest of North America (Washington, Idaho, Montana, British Columbia,
etc) What Salishan language are you referring to in California?
JohnK

***
First try to explain him what a language is.
A.

I wouldn't bother, over the years it's been tried many times with
no discernible success.
An old Central European proverb comes to mind:
"It's like throwing peas against the wall."

pjk

Arnaud F.

2013-01-14 08:36:49 UTC

Post by pauljk

Post by Arnaud F.
***
First try to explain him what a language is.
A.

I wouldn't bother, over the years it's been tried many times with
no discernible success.
"It's like throwing peas against the wall."

***

Here's another one:
"il a un petit pois à la place du cerveau."

he's got a pea instead of a brain.

A.

pauljk

2013-01-14 08:53:06 UTC

Post by pauljk

Post by Arnaud F.
***
First try to explain him what a language is.
A.

I wouldn't bother, over the years it's been tried many times with
no discernible success.
"It's like throwing peas against the wall."

***
"il a un petit pois à la place du cerveau."
he's got a pea instead of a brain.

There's one I heard many years ago when I was learning
English said by my colleagues about our boss. The warped
logic of it somewhat puzzled me.

"If they put another brain into his head, it would be alone."

Arnaud F.

2013-01-14 09:39:36 UTC

Post by Arnaud F.
***
First try to explain him what a language is.
A.

I wouldn't bother, over the years it's been tried many times with
no discernible success.
"It's like throwing peas against the wall."

***
"il a un petit pois à la place du cerveau."
he's got a pea instead of a brain.

There's one I heard many years ago when I was learning
English said by my colleagues about our boss. The warped
logic of it somewhat puzzled me.
"If they put another brain into his head, it would be alone."

***

Another one is that kind of warped euphemism is:
"il n'est pas (tout à fait) fini".
he's (quite) not finished (assembling), implying he lacks a brain.

In that line of reasoning:
"il reste des pièces dans la boite"
some pieces (=the brain) are still in the kit box.

A.
***

Peter T. Daniels

2013-01-14 11:51:23 UTC

Post by Arnaud F.
***
First try to explain him what a language is.
A.

I wouldn't bother, over the years it's been tried many times with
no discernible success.
"It's like throwing peas against the wall."

***
"il a un petit pois à la place du cerveau."
he's got a pea instead of a brain.

There's one I heard many years ago when I was learning
English said by my colleagues about our boss. The warped
logic of it somewhat puzzled me.
"If they put another brain into his head, it would be alone."

An immense series of metaphors exists in English, and the pattern is
continually being extended: "A couple of bricks short of a load," "A
few chapters short of a book," etc.

Arnaud F.

2013-01-14 12:33:01 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
An immense series of metaphors exists in English, and the pattern is
continually being extended: "A couple of bricks short of a load," "A
few chapters short of a book," etc.

***

Anything on "a letter short of a fraud" ?

A.

Peter T. Daniels

2013-01-14 15:09:49 UTC

***
Anything on "a letter short of a fraud" ?

Proving that yangg can't even construct a simple analogy.

Amazing that even vanity-press web sites and journals publish his
stuff.

Arnaud F.

2013-01-14 17:33:37 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Amazing that even vanity-press web sites and journals publish his
stuff.

***

Interesting utterance.

The fraud who represents vanity-press is you, fraud.

If web sites and journals publish my papers, it's because they are good, as there's no money, no fame involved. They pass the process, because they are good, good, got it?

Can you just realize that something can be published because it's good?

Not like your vanity-books, that are the devil knows how over-expensive with respect to actual contents and that nobody cares buying, but subsidized libraries.

Got it, vanity-press fraud?

A.

Peter T. Daniels

2013-01-14 19:45:19 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Amazing that even vanity-press web sites and journals publish his
stuff.

So says the same yangg who rejects the peer review process.

Post by Arnaud F.
Can you just realize that something can be published because it's good?

If they are not peer reviewed, who has certified that they are good?

Post by Arnaud F.
Not like your vanity-books, that are the devil knows how over-expensive with respect to actual contents and that nobody cares buying, but subsidized libraries.
Got it, vanity-press fraud?

Whatever you're talking about, it isn't me.

Arnaud F.

2013-01-14 19:54:07 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Amazing that even vanity-press web sites and journals publish his
stuff.

So says the same yangg who rejects the peer review process.

***

Never said I reject peer-review.

A.
***

Post by Arnaud F.
Can you just realize that something can be published because it's good?

If they are not peer reviewed, who has certified that they are good?

***

They are published because they have been peer-reviewed.

A.
***

Whatever you're talking about, it isn't me.

***

it is you, vanity-press fraud.

There's no word that better fits you than "vanity-press".

A.

Peter T. Daniels

2013-01-14 22:44:34 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Amazing that even vanity-press web sites and journals publish his
stuff.

Interesting utterance.
The fraud who represents vanity-press is you, fraud.
If web sites and journals publish my papers, it's because they are good, as there's no money, no fame involved. They pass the process, because they are good, good, got it?

So says the same yangg who rejects the peer review process.

Never said I reject peer-review.

You did, but I'm not going to bother searching.

Post by Arnaud F.
Can you just realize that something can be published because it's good?

If they are not peer reviewed, who has certified that they are good?

They are published because they have been peer-reviewed.

Whatever you're talking about, it isn't me.

it is you, vanity-press fraud.
There's no word that better fits you than "vanity-press".

Ah -- another English word you don't know. A "vanity press" is a
publisher that the author pays to bring out their book or article.

Arnaud F.

2013-01-13 22:30:32 UTC

Post by johnk

Wrong. The general term for bird in Salish is ɬxʷixʷeyuɬ which doesn't fit your pattern at all.

***
This can be verified here:
http://www.salishworld.com/Selish%20Dictionary_online.pdf

The root is possibly *gwey(H) "to be alive",
xʷixʷeyuɬ means animal < "that is alive, animate".
= *gwigweyul-os

A.
***

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-14 08:58:34 UTC

more on the Salish

Oregon - Beautiful Sliver of the Young Moon

Ross Clark informs me that the Salish never came
farther south than Oregon. Well then. Oregon inspires
ORE GEN, beautiful ORE young moon GEN of the
first three days or nights (followed by six days of the
waxing moon, nine days of the full moon, six days
of the waning moon, three days of the old moon,
and alternately three and two days of the empty moon
German Leermond in the chronometry of Lascaux).
Everybody can see the full moon, whereas finding
the sliver of the young moon somewhere in the vast
expanse of the night sky was near impossible without
optical devices and astronomical coordinates - yet
the Oregon people may have succeeded (as the
Babylonians in Asia Minor.). Alternative etymology:
ORI GEN, horizon ORI young moon GEN. Double
formula: ORI GEN, ORE GEN -- the Oregon people
were skilled astronomers, always able to predict
where the beautiful sliver of the young moon will
originate from the eastern horizon ... An appealing
place of their ancient home would have been the
plain between the elegant volcano Mount St. Helens
and Lake Spirit of a smaller western and larger eastern
part, now Pumice Plain, the archaeological level buried
under the pumice of the 1991 eruption. Four thousand
years ago the tangent of the lunar extremes (reached
every 18.6 years) was 1:1 while the rising and setting
sun on the solstices had a tengent of 3:4 (in reference
to the East West line). These numbers combined with
a couple of telling geographical names allow a further
archaeological and Paleo-linguistic fable.

The Oregon people named themselves for the eastern
horizon of the beautiful sliver of the young moon, with
a double formula: ORI GEN ORE GEN . They settled
in a fertile plain, between the Heavenly Mountain CA LAS
(Helens), Mountain of Moon and Sun - an elegant snow-
capped volcano, the white snow reminding of the moon,
and the fire housed by a volcano of the sun - and Lake
Moon-and-Sun (Lake Spirit of a smaller western and
larger eastern part) north of the Heavenly Mountain
CA LAS.

Moon and Sun were combined in a lunisolar calendar.
A month had 30 days, a year 12 months plus 5 and
occasionally 6 more days, while 63 continuous periods
of 30 days are 1,890 days and correspond to 65 moons
or lunations or synodic months. Begin with 30 29 30 29
30 29 30 29 30 ... days for 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... lunations.
15 and 17 lunations yield 443 and 502 days respectively,
together 945 days for 32 lunations, doubled 1,890 days
for 64 lunations.

64 equals 8 times 8. A square measuring 8 by 8 rods
defined the ground of the Hummingbird Sanctuary
and astronomical observatory. Four poles marked the
corners of the square 8 by 8, two and two poles North
and South, two and two poles East and West. Two
more poles were seen in the middle of the square,
1 rod north and 1 rod south of the center, diagonal
distances from the nearest corner poles 5 rods
(according to the Sacred Triangle 3 4 5). The poles
of North and East provided sighting lines of the rising
and setting sun on the equinoxes. The poles in the
middle combined with the nearest corner poles
provided sighting lines of the rising and setting sun
on the solstices. And the corner poles alone provided
sighting lines of the lunar extremes reached every
long moon (18.6 years). The characterisic pattern
of the six poles were seen as Heavenly Bird CA PIC
(origin of the Inca name Capac?), a hummingbird
(consider the kolibri among the Nazca geoglyphs)
of a white underside for moon and snow and a red
upperside for the fire of sun and volcano, modeled
on the male of the Rufus Hummingbird (Selasphorus
rufus).

DAL means valley, dale, German Tal. Inverse LAD
means hill. The comparative form of DAL is SAL
and names the watery ground of a valley, while the
comparative form of LAD and inverse form of SAL
is LAS meaning mountain. AC names an expanse
of land with water, inverse CA the sky. The shores
of Lake Moon-and-Sun (Lake Spirit) were called
SAL AC (wherefrom Salish, perhaps also present
in Sales- of Salesphorus rufus). CA LAS named
the Heavenly Mountain (Helens) while LAS CA
named the high mountains LAS of southern
Alaska that reach the sky CA ...

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-15 08:17:47 UTC

Alaska Range, Mount St. Helens and Spirit Lake

The high mountains of the Alaska Range would have
named Alaska in the form of LAS CA, mountain LAS
sky CA, mountains reaching the sky. Inverse CA LAS
would have named Mount St. Helens (in the conic
shape from before 1991), Heavenly Mountain, Mountain
of Moon and Sun, while the inverse (backward) form
SAL AC named the shore of Spirit Lake (also in the
shape from before 1991), watery ground of a valley SAL
expanse of land with water AC, the southern shore and
plain of Spirit Lake, Lake of Moon and Sun, original
home of the SAL AC people who became the Salish.

The Salish are know as Flatheads, from a word of
an inner Salish language, a typical overforming.
Another overforming - perhaps a European assimilation
- may be CA LAS Helens evoking Helen and the Hellenes,
names of a similar sound but different meaning, KAL LAS
Hellas, KAL EN Helen, KAL meaning cave, Underworld,
then also mines, revealing the original Greeks as miners
from the first Indo-European homeland on the banks of
the Amu Darya working in the mines of the Alai Mountains
where tin is found in association with copper. Tin was
personified in beautiful Helen of the white arms (ingots)
and long glittering robes she made herself (glittering
tin ore cassiterite), copper by her husband xanthos
Menelaos, the color xanthos covering all hues of copper
ore, yellow brown red. Their daughter was lovely Hermione
who resembled golden Aphrodite, alloy of copper and tin
(Mycenaean bronze contained double or even three times
as much tin than modern bronze), of a golden shine when
freshly cast. Menelaos had a slave woman for a mistress,
andrasit, a mineral found in the Troas, natural alloy of
copper and zinc - zinc in enslaved form, as it were.
Their son was strong late come Megapenthes, brass,
alloy of copper and zinc, harder than bronze and arriving
late in the 'family' of metals.

Magdalenian requires context, wide fields of context,
if possible around a calendar - an early calendar
connecting earth and heaven and turning the world
into a spiritual home.

Such a home was the plain between CAL LAS and
SAL AC, between the northern slope of Mount St. Helens
and the southern shore of Spirit Lake, home of the Salish
four thousand years ago, by then a paradise. I can tell.
I was there on a time travel past Sunday, guided by
the Spirit of the Hummingbird.

Arnaud F.

2013-01-15 18:35:42 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The Salish are know as Flatheads,

***

And the Swiss as platypedic flat-foots

A.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-16 09:38:19 UTC

one more quote from my Magdalenian thread; relevant
for this thread are the correction and a confirmation of
PIC for bird

Macchu Picchu

First a correction. The big eruption of Mount St. Helens
did not occur in 1991 but in 1980, on May 18. The top
of the conic volcano was blown away, leaving a crater,
diminishing the height by four hundred meters (from
before 2950 m to now 2550 m). The wind blew the
pumice northward. It covers my area of interest in a fan,
radius up to twenty-five kilometers, changing the shape
of Spirit Lake and creating new lakes, the biggest ones
Coldwater Lake and Castle Lake. (In my school atlas
at home I have a map from before 1980 and another
from 1991, which caused the confusion, sorry.)

You may remember my derivation of Tiahuanaco from
one of the many names of the sky god, an eagle in
the Altai, a condor in the Andes, DhAG AAR RAA CA,
the able one DhAG flies in the air AAR and light RAA
of the sky CA

DhAG (Italian dio) Tia ??

AAR RAA (Greek hora) huara huarna huana ??

CA (Old Italian caelum) co ??

The huara form of AAR RAA is confirmed by the Huari,
counterpart of Tiahuanaco. The Inca are said to have
inherited their quipu system from the Huari, so that
we can assume the use of knotted cords and strings
also for Tiahuanaco, especially the condor strings
of the hypothetical condor calendar inspired by the
Bennett Monolith of the Akapana pyramid complex

1 condor (string) for 26 days
7 condors for half a year (182 days)
14 condors 1 knot for a regular year (365 days)
14 condors 2 knots for a leap year (366 days)
92 condors for 81 moons
(mistake four hours in fifty years)

If the rule of 6 leap years among 25 years, which
I ascribe to the astronomers of Tell Halaf in Asia Minor,
was also known in Tiahuanaco, it might have been
encoded in the bosses of a stone, o for a regular year,
x for a leap year

o o x o o o x o o o x o o o x o o o x o o o x o o

Now for Macchu Picchu, the famous Inca residence
on a saddle of rock between the larger mountain
Macchu Picchu and the smaller mountain Huayna
Picchu, the latter known from innumerable photographs.
In a certain light - well captured by the native photographer
Martin Chambi in 1925 - the minor peak and major peak
of the Huayna Picchu evoke the beaks of birds (you may
incline your head to the right side when looking at the
picture). This would confirm PIC for bird in beak and
Peak Pizzo Piz and now also Picchu, while Huayna
may fit in the line of AAR RAA (hora) huara Huari
huarna huana Huayna.

Magdalenian MUC named a bull, present in the bull
head Mi- of Mi-Nu-The Minos (Hiyeroglyphic Minoan,
Linear A, Linear B) and in Myc- of Mycenae as stronghold
of the young Zeus bull. A drawing in the cave Le Gabillou
shows a small hunter before an immense bull, magnified
by awe and fear. The bull MUC as epitome of something
big accounts for Greek mega 'big' Latin magnus 'big'
English much and magnify. Swiss has Mocke for something
big and round. The late opera singer Luciano Pavarotti
was a typical Mocke. A mother may call her toddler
min süesse Mocke, my sweet chubby child. A lollipop
called Föifer-Mocke was sold for föif 'five' Rappe 'cents'
in the days of my childhood, the biggest sweet available
for a little pocket money. MUC as epitome of something
big would also be present in Macchu Picchu as the bigger
of the two mountains forming the saddle of rock that carries
the famous Inca residence, a marvel of engineering and
stone masonry. The place might well have been chosen
for the view on the beak-like peaks of Huayna Picchu
evoking the presence of the sky god in the guise of a bird.

johnk

2013-01-16 11:36:16 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
one more quote from my Magdalenian thread; relevant
for this thread are the correction and a confirmation of
PIC for bird
Macchu Picchu
First a correction. The big eruption of Mount St. Helens
did not occur in 1991 but in 1980, on May 18. The top
of the conic volcano was blown away, leaving a crater,
diminishing the height by four hundred meters (from
before 2950 m to now 2550 m). The wind blew the
pumice northward. It covers my area of interest in a fan,
radius up to twenty-five kilometers, changing the shape
of Spirit Lake and creating new lakes, the biggest ones
Coldwater Lake and Castle Lake. (In my school atlas
at home I have a map from before 1980 and another
from 1991, which caused the confusion, sorry.)

You are such an idiot! This is hilarious! Do you still have crayon scribbles in your school atlas? And don't blame your confusion on an atlas; it's you.

Alias

Arnaud F.

2013-01-16 12:48:16 UTC

Post by johnk

You are such an idiot! This is hilarious! Do you still have crayon scribbles in your school atlas? And don't blame your confusion on an atlas; it's you.

***

There's a lot of wind blowing in and out of his empty skull...

A.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-17 08:12:16 UTC

Himalayas (Out of India)

LAS CA Alaska, CA LAS Helens, SAL AC Salish
(and Selah near Yakima on a confluence of rivers),
LAS for mountain, SAL for the watery ground of
a valley, AC for an expanse of land with water,
CA for sky, Alaska named for the high mountains
reaching the sky, Mount St. Helens in the conic shape
from before 18 May 1980 as mountain of moon and
sun, and the Salish as people who originally came
from the southern shore of Spirit Lake ...

In my school atlas at home (edition from 1997, we
had the older one from 1962) the Salish are called
Flatheads, and the same meaning is given by my
Webster's Unabridged (1996) with reference to a word
of Southern Interior Salish. How is that meaning justified?
were the heads of the children of chieftains bandaged
in a particular way? If not, Flatheads, even based on
a Salish word, must be an overforming, perhaps due
to a false parsing. Overformings occurred fairly often.
A well-known example is the shift from Abram to
Abraham in the Bible, as the old name was no longer
understood, Magdalenian ABA BRA, he who carries out
the will of the (heavenly) father ABA with his right arm BRA.
My favorite case of an overforming is the Gallo-Roman
settlement Cossiniacum on Lake Lucerne in Switzerland,
Cossini-acum, acum (in my reading an expanse of land
with water AC) owned by one Cossinius, misunderstood
by the Alemannic settlers, falsely parsed as Cossi-niacum
and turned into Küssnacht which means Kissing Night ...

Where did the name of the Himalayas come from?
Himal- reminds me of German Himmel for sky, heaven,
perhaps akin to Old Latin caelum 'sky', from CA LIC,
sky CA light and luck LIC, Latin lux lumen English light
and luminous, with a metathesis (exchange of l and m)

CA LIC CAe Lum ... German Himmel ??

If so, Himalayas might perhaps derive from a double
formula, CA LIC, CA LAS, sky of light and luck above
the mountains, the heavenly mountains raising from
the northern plain of the Indian subcontinent, named
by a tribe of the Arun Valley between the mountain
massifs of the Sagarmatha (Everest) and Gangchhen-
dsönga, the valley named for AAR RAA NOS, the god
of air AAR and light RAA with a mind NOS, filling the
valley between the mountains with air and light, and
the river bed and water holes with rain ... Another word
of these people from 60,000 years ago would have been
SAI for life, existence, written as dots, accounting for the
oldest element in European cave art, a red dot in the
Altamira cave, over 40,000 years old, an ancient symbol
surviving in the beauty dot of an Indian woman ...

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-18 07:48:21 UTC

heaven and haven (imagination needed)

How are Sanskrit asman 'stone' and Old Prussian
asman 'heaven' related? Via AS for upward and MAN
for right hand. Picture a Stone Age hunter raising his
arm, moving it upward AS, and holding a sharpened
stone in his hand MAN, a hand axe, universal tool
of the Stone Age, also a weapon. Then imagine him
on a larger scale in the sky, raising his arm again,
moving it upward AS, and holding a thunder stone
in his right hand MAN - Great Thunderer AS MAN
in his heavenly realm, ancestor of all thunder gods.

Proto-Indo-European *akman 'stone' would have
named a stone as part of the ground AC seized
with the right hand MAN, or an anvil stone as part
of the ground AC on which a tool stone was
shaped and sharpened with a hammer stone,
stone hitting stone causing a thundering noise
if the work was done in an abri or a cave.

PAS means everywhere (in a plain), here, south
and north of me, east and west of me, in all five places,
Greek pas pan 'all every' pente penta- 'five', consider
also German von 'from' in the sense of here, coming
from south or north, east or west. AC names an
expanse of land with water, inverse CA the sky.
PAS CA is given as domino five for PAS and an
additional dot in elevated position for CA in the
Brunel chamber of the Chauvet cave: May the bull man
(supreme leader of the Rhone Valley) be born again
in the sky by the goddess (of the Summer Triangle)
and roam the heavens in his next life as he roams
the land in this life - may he get everywhere PAS
in the sky CA ... The formula PAS CA became Russian
Paskha Italian Pasqua French Pâques for Easter,
while the inverse form CA PAS became Old English
heofon Middle English heven New English heaven
along the development of Greek pas pan German von

PAS CA hA PAn heo fon he ven hea ven

English haven German Hafen is a simpler word, from
CAP as in capture, a German Haff 'lagoon' capturing
water, Old English haef 'sea' and Old Norse haf 'sea'
then naming the sea along a shore of bays between
capes, promontories. CAP has many derivatives,
among them Latin habere German haben English
have (incompatible in PIE, well compatible in
Magdalenian), and English heave German heben
(not akin to English heaven).

LIC means light and luck, Latin lux lumen English
light luminous, in combination with CA for sky
accounting for Old Latin caelum 'heaven' and with
a metathesis for Old High German himil 'heaven'

CA LIC CAe Lum hae mul hi mil

CA LIC is also present in calix, raised to the gods
in the sky, and in Cilicia, ancient kingdom then Roman
province in the Taurus of southern Anatolia. LAS means
mountain, LAS CA named Alaska for the high mountains
reaching the sky, CA LAS named Mount St. Helens,
heavenly mountain of moon and sun of the early Salish
(as explained in previous messages), also Calais across
the famous white cliffs of Dover, rising from the water
into the sky (Greek laas for cliff), while the double formula
CA LIC, CA LAS would have accounted for Himalayas,
the phonetical distance a measure of time

CA LIC CAe Lum he mul hi mal

CA LAS LAS

together hi mal LAS hi mal ay AS

If you look at a relief map of Eurasia you can see a long
mountain range from Northern Spain in the West to the
Himalayas in the East, one single bar in the understanding
of early geographers like Hekataios from around 500 BC.
CA LIC in the form of Galicia named the western end,
CA LAS in the form of Kailas or Kailash the mountain
above the source of the Indus River, a peak of the Kailas
or Kailash Range. While the Tibetan capital Lhasa
resides high up in the mountains. Lhasa abode of
the gods and Himalayas abode of snow are later
overformings, making sense (not like the overforming
Cossiniacum Cossini-acum Cossi-niacum Küssnacht
Kissing Night mentioned in the previous message).

Arnaud F.

2013-01-18 09:23:10 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
heaven and haven (imagination needed)
How are Sanskrit asman 'stone' and Old Prussian
asman 'heaven' related? Via AS for upward and MAN
for right hand.

[gaggithaler excrementa removed]

Maybe it's time you read Diderot (1755) on morphemic analysis in etymologies.

A.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-19 09:18:06 UTC

Chavin, early Peru, combined condor calendar
and jaguar calendar, spider as quipu deity,
birdman of Chavin de Huantar (and Yverdon-Clendy)

In the beautiful and impressive Chavin (stress on -vin)
exhibition at the Rietberg Museum Zurich (we know of
Americans who fly over the 'big pond' for a visit of this
museum, while many of my fellow natives never have
been there) I found to my big pleasure a perfect and
much earlier analogue of the condor calendar inspired
by the seven and seven condor strings on the Bennett
Monolith of the Akapana Pyramid at Tiahuanaco -
a large gold crown in the form of a curved sheet with
seven and seven windows, one row above, one below,
framed by embossed intertwined strings, two above
and two below, or one loop above and one below, and
hung in the windows, fixed with wire, seven and seven
male heads en face, while a smaller and simpler gold
crown has six and six windows, in them six and six
male profiles with feline features. The two crowns are
from Kuntur Wasi meaning Condor's Nest on a hill
of a beautiful mountain range, between 800 and 550 BC.
In my opinion they represent a condor calendar based
on a period of 26 days and a jaguar calendar based on
a period of 30 days, counted on knotted strings that were
consecrated to the quipu deity of the spider, an insect
producing a thread, worshipped as mythical inventor
of the quipu system, originally used for counting time

1 condor (string) for 26 days
7 condors for half a year (182 days)
14 condors 1 knot for a regular year (365 days)
14 condors 2 knots for a leap year (366 days
92 condors for 81 moons (2392 days)
(mistake four hours in fifty years)

1 jaguar (string) for 30 days
6 jaguars 2 knots for half a year (182 days)
12 jaguars 5 knots for a regular year (365 days)
12 jaguars 6 knots for a leap year (366 days)
63 jaguars for 64 moons (1890 days)
(mistake half a day in a lifetime)

Begin with 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 days for
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... moons or lunations or synodic
months. 15 and 17 lunations yield 443 and 502 days
respectively. 17 15 17 15 17 lunations yield 502 945
1447 1890 2392 days for 17 32 49 64 81 lunations.
A long cycle of 64 moons or 81 moons - counted on
the knotted strings and completed - would have been
symbolized by the head of a jaguar-man or condor-man
in the web of the quipu-spider: eyes closed, corners
of the mouth dropped, periods of time over and gone.

Chavin de Huantar (stress on -an-) is the emblem
of the Chavin culture, higher up in the mountains,
at the base of a triangular peak, inhabited already
five thousand years ago. A monolith, over four meters
tall, shows a man, in my opinion the birdman, his nose
also a beak, his eyes moon and sun combined, his
hair snakes curled around stars, while further elemens
invoke the kaiman and puma or jaguar. The so-called
Lanzon (stress on -zon) stood on the roof of the main
temple in between 3,500 and 3,000 years ago, then
was placed in the holiest chamber of a new complex,
a narrow room in the center of four meeting gangways,
lit by the morning sun, especially on midwinter.

The Lanzon reminds me of the birdman among the over
forty menhirs at Yverdon-Clendy in western Switzerland,
on the southern end of Lake Neuchatel. The seven
hypothetically oldest menhirs would have formed a large
raven. Five of the seven menhirs would have represented
the equinoxes and solstices. Four of them would have
marked the corridor of the midsummer sun, rising by then
from the middle of the lake, and of the setting midwinter sun.
And all seven stones would have been the raven map of
the region of the three lakes. The head stone is a bird
with a round eye and beak, but also a man (and a hand,
and a tree) depending on light and vantage point. Reliefs
of a pair of courting ravens are seen on the spring menhir,
end of the left wing:

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

An early astronomical sanctuary of seven poles
in the shape of a 'condor' at Chavin de Huantar
could have provided sighting lines of the rising
and setting sun on the equinoxes and solstices
if the poles had had the following x / y coordinates

head 0 / 2 (pointing northward or southward)

right wing 4 / + -1

body 0 / 0

left wing - 4 / + - 1

tail 0 / - 2

One pole would have represented a period of 26 days.
The 'condor' may have flown northward for half of a year,
and southward for the other half year.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-19 09:45:03 UTC

Arnaud Fournet claims to have published very good papers.
I guess we should have guessed so from the very good way
he discusses (talking out of his colon), from the very good
way he formulates his opinion (smearing dirt on the wall),
and from the very good arguments he brings forth
(ad hominems). He claims to know things about Hurrian
or Wintun or Salish, but then he knows nothing,
he can't provide for example an etymology of Salish,
and so he must compensate for his lack of a functional
knowledge with anal aggression. He did so right from the
beginning, when he joined sci.lang under the pseudonym
of yangg. Only a psychopath can try to prove his worth
as a scholar that way.

Arnaud F.

2013-01-19 10:52:29 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Arnaud Fournet claims to have published very good papers.

***

Indeed,
some excellent ones, some with a few mistakes...

A.
***

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I guess we should have guessed so from the very good way
he discusses (talking out of his colon), from the very good
way he formulates his opinion (smearing dirt on the wall),
and from the very good arguments he brings forth
(ad hominems).

***

There's no "we" here, Möngi,

As the Gaggithaler Buffoon maximus of the site, you are not entitled to speak on behalf of all listees.

A.
***

He claims to know things about Hurrian

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
or Wintun or Salish, but then he knows nothing,
he can't provide for example an etymology of Salish,

***

Gave you:

PIE neH2w "boat"
Wintun nux
Coast Salish s-nexw-eL "canoe"

Here another
PIE pleH2-nos "plain"
Coast Salish s-plex-n "meadow"

Yet another
PIE s-neubh- "spouse"
Coast Salish s-new' "spouse"

Etc.

If orthodox Indo-Europeanists were not such a bunch of retards, they'd look there.

A.
***

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
and so he must compensate for his lack of a functional
knowledge with anal aggression.

***

Pot Kettle pb here.

A.
***

He did so right from the

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
beginning, when he joined sci.lang under the pseudonym
of yangg. Only a psychopath can try to prove his worth
as a scholar that way.

***

Changed that.

A.

b***@ihug.co.nz

2013-01-20 04:34:49 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Arnaud Fournet claims to have published very good papers.

***
Indeed,
some excellent ones, some with a few mistakes...
A.
***

***
There's no "we" here, Möngi,
As the Gaggithaler Buffoon maximus of the site, you are not entitled to speak on behalf of all listees.
A.
***
He claims to know things about Hurrian

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
or Wintun or Salish, but then he knows nothing,
he can't provide for example an etymology of Salish,

***
PIE neH2w "boat"
Wintun nux
Coast Salish s-nexw-eL "canoe"
Here another
PIE pleH2-nos "plain"
Coast Salish s-plex-n "meadow"
Yet another
PIE s-neubh- "spouse"
Coast Salish s-new' "spouse"

You probably know that Kuipers mentioned a couple of dozen such
resemblances between Squamish and IE in the Appendix to his 1967 book.
He said one could not really get serious about them until the work of
comparative Salish had been done. Perhaps that time is now?

Just to see what he makes of the above cases in the Salish
Etymological Dictionary (in which he does not explore the IE
connection):

"canoe"
This looks like his PS suffix *-wil 'canoe'. Cowichan -əxwəɬ looks
most like the form you cite. In any case it looks as if he has a
different morpheme division.

"meadow"
PS *pal 'thin, flat', found in both Coast and Interior Salish in words
for flat land, e.g. Squamish spaɬXn 'flats, flat land'. No laryngeal
in his reconstruction, but does look similar to the IE "flat" root.

"spouse"
This looks like Kuipers' *niw 'spouse (address term)' but it's quite
limited in distribution -- occurs only in Squamish (Coast), Lillooet
and Thompson (Interior), which are neighbours between which there is
known borrowing. Note no s-.

Of course you may have other sources of information.

Arnaud F.

2013-01-20 09:41:50 UTC

Post by Arnaud F.
PIE neH2w "boat"
Wintun nux
Coast Salish s-nexw-eL "canoe"
Here another
PIE pleH2-nos "plain"
Coast Salish s-plex-n "meadow"
Yet another
PIE s-neubh- "spouse"
Coast Salish s-new' "spouse"

***

yes possibly so,
we now have plenty of reliable dictionaries of individual Salishan languages.
A.
**

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Just to see what he makes of the above cases in the Salish
Etymological Dictionary (in which he does not explore the IE
"canoe"
This looks like his PS suffix *-wil 'canoe'. Cowichan -əxwəɬ looks
most like the form you cite. In any case it looks as if he has a
different morpheme division.

***

Montler on his site has s-nexweL for Klallam and Saanich.

It's possible that PS suffixes are mangled.

A.
***

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
"meadow"
PS *pal 'thin, flat', found in both Coast and Interior Salish in words
for flat land, e.g. Squamish spaɬXn 'flats, flat land'. No laryngeal
in his reconstruction, but does look similar to the IE "flat" root.

***

Ah !! :)

A.
***

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
"spouse"
This looks like Kuipers' *niw 'spouse (address term)' but it's quite
limited in distribution -- occurs only in Squamish (Coast), Lillooet
and Thompson (Interior), which are neighbours between which there is
known borrowing. Note no s-.

***

Possibly but s-mobile is indeed mobile.
Klallam and Saanich have s-new'

A.
***

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Of course you may have other sources of information.

***

Apparently you don't seem to know of some on-line sources !?

A.

b***@ihug.co.nz

2013-01-20 10:31:19 UTC

***
yes possibly so,
we now have plenty of reliable dictionaries of individual Salishan languages.
A.
**

***
Montler on his site has s-nexweL for Klallam and Saanich.

Aha. Kuipers lists Montler's Saanich word list and the Klallam web
site (the only online source he mentions), but perhaps has not fully
integrated them into his comparisons. The Etymological Dictionary was
published in instalments over a period of about 30 years and it only
all came together in 2002.

Post by Arnaud F.
It's possible that PS suffixes are mangled.
A.
***

***
Ah !! :)
A.
***

***
Possibly but s-mobile is indeed mobile.
Klallam and Saanich have s-new'
A.
***

Lack of s- in Sq-Li-Th could be because it's an address term?

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Of course you may have other sources of information.

***
Apparently you don't seem to know of some on-line sources !?
A.

No, not much. I don't claim to be a Salishanist, but I've had a small
interest over the years because I grew up in that part of the world. I
have a few books, but haven't kept up with the online sources.

Arnaud F.

2013-01-20 10:57:40 UTC

***
yes possibly so,
we now have plenty of reliable dictionaries of individual Salishan languages.
A.
**

***
Montler on his site has s-nexweL for Klallam and Saanich.

***

Kuipers work would certainly need to be vastly expanded,
especially for morphology.

A.
***

Post by Arnaud F.
It's possible that PS suffixes are mangled.
A.
***

***
Ah !! :)
A.
***

***
Possibly but s-mobile is indeed mobile.
Klallam and Saanich have s-new'
A.
***

Lack of s- in Sq-Li-Th could be because it's an address term?

***

Possibly so,

Anyway, s-mobile is used to confirm the nominal status of words.

A.
***

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Of course you may have other sources of information.

***
Apparently you don't seem to know of some on-line sources !?
A.

***

Nice !

A.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-20 09:09:07 UTC

Chavin, creator speaking

Magdalenian relies on visual language and can
make a graphic sign speak.

The paintings in the Chauvet cave date from around
32,000 years ago. On a stalactite in the rear hall
was drawn a Venus of a large black pubic triangle,
on her right side a bison, his forlegs parallel with
her left leg, his big head covering her womb. I read
this constellation as the goddess of the Summer
Triangle Deneb Atair Vega providing a second life
in the sky for the bull man, supreme leader of the
Lower Rhone Valley.

In the spring of 2006 I postulated PAD for the activity
of feet, onomatopoeic, pad pad pad pad ..., and the
comparative from PAS for everywhere (in a plain),
here, south and north of me, east and west of me,
in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every' pente
penta- 'five'. One Holly identified the domino five -
a large sign of red dots applied with the palm of
a hand - in the Brunel chamber of Chauvet with PAS
for everywhere (in a plain) while the additional dot
in elevated position can be read as CA for sky,
yielding PAS CA -- may the bull man, born again
by the goddess in the sky, roam the heavens in his
next life as he roams the earth in this life, may he
get everywhere PAS in the sky CA ...

The PAS CA formula became Russian Paskha
Italian Pasqua French Pâques for Easter, while
the inverse form CA PAS accounts for English
heaven, as explained in a previous message,
and perhaps also for Chavin (stress on -vin) and
Sipan (stress on -pan) via similar developments
- here, under the center of the sky CA, the sky
extending to the south and north, east and west,
everywhere PAS.

A complementary PAS emblem is the ring cross.
Two small ring crosses appear in the upturned
corners of the mouth of el Lanzon from Chavin
de Huantar, identified as creator god by Julio C.
Tello, a Peruvian researcher. Another ring cross
appears under the combined lunar and solar eye
of the god on the relief slab from the northern arc
of the round place at Chavin de Huantar, again
in the corner of the mouth, this time in a more
realistic version as the cross between the two
upper and the two lower molars. The molar cross
in a square, formed by the corner of the mouth
and a fang, or the cross of the two and two front
teeth between the upper and lower lip and two fangs
(with a round hole in the center of the cross) appear
on other reliefs or sculpted heads, while three crosses
in the square belong to the figure of the stele from
Pacopampa in the highland, two form the corners
of the mouth, and one the vagina and womb under
a round navel - this, figure, a woman, anticipates
the male creator god of the Moche. Now the emblem
of the ring cross in the many variants can be read
as follows, the maker speaking: I create the world
by my word, and make it expand from here in all
directions, to the south and north, east and west.
In my womb, as in the nest of my female condor
emanation, I create life that will be born, grow up,
explore the world in all directions, going from here
to the south and north, east and west, and gather
food in the five places. Bring a part of it back from
south and north, east and west, and sacrifice it
for me, here, in my sacred precinct under the center
of the sky that epands in all directions, from here
to the south and north, east and west ...

PAS would have accounted for wasi 'nest' present
in Kuntur Wasi, Condor's Nest, while -tur may derive
from TYR meaning overcomer, as verb to overcome
in the double sense of rule and give, and GYN for
woman in Kun- of the female condor laying the eggs,
one of the many variations of the creator, neither man
nor woman, human or animal or plant, condor or
jaguar, puma, kaiman, snake or spider, but appearing
in all these guises that are formulae for the hidden
being, artfully combined in the art of Chavin, early
Peru.

Next time: spider rattle of Sipan (spider calendar)

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-20 09:35:34 UTC

Arnaud Fournet, again, argues by smearing dirt
on the wall. No etymology of Salish from him.
He once posted a list of Wintun words as evidence
of Indo-European in America before Leif Erikson
and Christopher Colomb, in which list I recognized
ten or more Magdalenian words, several at first
glance. Now again, in the Salish word for plain,
I recognize a Magdalenian word group, the one of
POL for a fortified settlement (Greek polis), inverse
LOP for the enve-lop-ing hedge or fence or wall,
and PLO for the wattle-and-daub technique
(Greek plokos 'wickerwork') that requires a flat
ground. Fournet still can't explain how IE arrived
in America before Erikson and Colomb (nor can
anyone else), he must realize deep inside himself
that only an old substratum can explain the apparent
vicinity of Wintun and Salish in Eastern America and
of Indo-European in Eurasia, a widespread language
spoken in wide parts of Eurasia, the language I call
Magdalenian. Before he dated Proto-Indo-European
to 7 000 BP, now he makes it older, but it won't help
him, he can't make it 15,000 years old and still call it
PIE. He realizes that the former language - the old
substratum - can't be regained by a stretcher of the
comparative method, it requires a different approach
to early language: the one of Richard Fester expanded
by me. And that makes him angry, as angry as my
historical and archaeological exploration of the
Argolis via the Phaistos Disc in the decipherment
of Derk Ohlenroth made Jean Faucounau angry
and turned him into my first longtime online stalker.

As for the etymology of Salish, I explain it via
SAL AC, watery ground of a valley SAL expanse
of land with water AC, which would have named
the southern shore of Spirit Lake (in the old form)
but is also present in Selah near Yukami on
a confluence of rivers. Google for that place in
Maps Terrain, and you find a perfect visualization
of SAL AC.

Arnaud F.

2013-01-20 09:49:41 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Arnaud Fournet, again, argues by smearing dirt
on the wall. No etymology of Salish from him.
He once posted a list of Wintun words as evidence
of Indo-European in America before Leif Erikson
and Christopher Colomb,

***

PIE is much older than the absurd low dating 3500 BCE, which is so utterly absurd I can't believe how people keep on clinging to that idiocy.

PIE probably began to break up about 14000 years ago, when the ice age came to an end.
Some branches moved out of Anatolia, some did not.
Anatolian IE an Hurro-Urartean did not move.

Wintun and Salishan belong to the group which went east.
On their way eastward, they crossed Uralic people, which account for a number of Uralic words in Salishan for example lany "girl", etc.

According to archeology Salishan was there about -9000 BP
It took them 5000 years to cross Eurasia.

As can be expected Salishan people do have European genomics,
unsurprising as they are of deep European ancestry.

A.
***

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-21 08:12:31 UTC

(hypothetical early Salish hummingbird calendar
corresponding to the hypothetical jaguar calendar
mentioned below)

Chavin, early Peru, calendars of the condor
and jaguar and Zarpan spider and Sipan spider
combined in the snake calendar of Sipan

The basic period of the condor calendar was 26 days,
the one of the jaguar calendar 30 days, the one of the
spider calendar of Zarpan (stress on -pan) 36 days,
and the one of the spider calendar of Sipan (stress
on -pan) 45 days

26 days of the condor
30 days of the jaguar
36 days of the Zarpan spider
45 days of the Sipan spider

The lunisolar calendars of the condor and jaguar have
already been explained. Follow the ones of the spiders
of Zarpan and Sipan, neighboring sites near the coast

1 Zarpan spider (string) for 36 days
3 Zarpan spiders 2 knots for half a year (182 days)
6 Zarpan spiders 5 knots for a regular year (365 days)
6 Zarpan spiders 6 knots for a leap year (366 days)
105 Zarpan spiders for 128 moons (3,780 dfays)
(mistake half a day in a lifetime)

1 Sipan spider (string) for 45 days
4 Sipan spiders 2 knots for half a year (182 days)
8 Sipan spiders 5 knots for a regular year (365 days)
8 Sipan spiders 6 knots for a leap year (366 days)
21 Sipan spiders for 32 moons (945 days)
(mistake half a day in a lifetime)

If you add the 26 condor days and 30 jaguar days
and 36 Zarpan spider days and 45 Sipan spider days
you get 137 days for the snake of Sipan, also encoded
in the gold spider rattle from Sipan

1 snake (string) for 137 days
8 snakes for 3 years (1096 days)
32 snakes minus 1 knot for 12 years (4383 days)
97 snakes for 450 moons (13,289 days)

3 regular years of 365 days plus one leap year of 366
days are 1461 days
12 years are 3 times 1461 days or 4,383 days
32 times 137 days minus 1 day are 4,383 days
12 tropical years are 4,382.90... days
(mistake of the Sipan value one day in 128 years)

30 29 30 29 30 29 30 ... days for 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... moons
15 and 17 moons are 443 and 502 days respectively
17 15 17 15 17 moons are 502 945 1447 1890 2392
days for 17 32 49 64 81 moons

49 64 64 64 64 64 81 moons are 450 moons
1447 1890 1890 1890 1890 1890 2392 days
are 13,289 days for 450 moons
450 tropical 'moons' are 13,288.765... days
(mistake of the Sipan value 1 day in 154 years)

12 years may have been the long solar period of Sipan
(inherited by the Moche and their creator god of twelve
hair locks). Twelve years would have been counted
on 32 snake strings that would have been kept in
coiled form in 28 square chests and 4 round chests,
as indicated by the gold spider rattle from Sipan.
The spider god has two arms and two legs, plus four
double-snake protuberances accounting for eight
spider legs. Embossed in the protuberances are
open snake mouths at the outer ends, plus4 and 4
and again 4 and 4 framed squares above, and 3 and 3
and again 3 and 3 framed squares below, in all 28
framed squares for 28 square chests keeping as many
coiled-up long strings of 137 knots each. Four more
strings would have been kept in round chests, indicated
by 2 and 2 small turquoise discs on the cheeks of the
spider god, two on the left and two on the right cheek.
So we have 28 square and 4 round chests, in all 32
chests keeping the coiled strings of 137 knots each.
12 years are 32 snake strings minus one knot,
a subtraction that might have been symbolized by
a zeremonial (symbolical) beheading of a snake man.
The spider god holds in his right hand (on the left
side of the rattle) a braided leather string ending in
a zeremonial knive, and in his left hand (on the right
side of the rattle) a male head by the long snake-like
string of hairs, encoding the mathematical operation
in a symbolic sacrifice.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-22 08:53:04 UTC

Swan Lake, fable of the first canoe

A long time ago a young fisherman lived at Balagans
on the shore of a river lake, one of a series of river
lakes that had been created by landslides, natural
dams, the river a contributary to Lake Baikal in Siberia.
He fell in love with a pretty girl, but he was poor and
had no chance to marry her. One early morning he
woke up, a hissing sound GhI GhI GhI coming from
outside his humble hut. He rose, went looking,
and saw a big swan who addressed him in the now
melodious voice of a woman: Climb on my back ...
He did so, and together they swam on the river lake,
to a secret place where the young man caught the
best fish he ever saw. The same happened on the
next early morning, and on the third early morning.
Then the bird woman said good bye, and adviced
the young man to visit the shamaness and consult
her virgin maidens. These worked in the service
of a powerful goddess, the Fur Giver whose heavenly
emanation was Orion on the beautiful bank or shore
of the heavenly river or lake (Milky Way). They worked
on furs and hides, gathered herbs and berries in
fur bags, made berry wine, desinfected water,
hosted patients, wrapped them in warming furs
coated on the inside with fat and medical herbs,
and knew a lot of things, also gave oracles.
Upon hearing the story of the young fisherman
they recognized an advice by their goddess:
make a swimming bird of wooden bones and cover
them with furs furs ... They did so, with the help of
the young man, and thus made the first canoe.
The young man proudly navigated his boat on the
river lake, catching the best fish, supplying the virgin
maidens, getting wealthy himself, and so he finally
could marry his lovely girl. They led a happy life,
had many children and many more children's
children.

Some of them left Siberia 13,000 years ago,
following a tribe from the Altai, worshippers of the
the one of Air and Light in the Sky, ventured along
the Beringia into Alaska, wandered southward
along the green trail, then eastward, arrived in
Florida, set out on rafts, reached various islands,
settled on river banks and lake shores and spent
mostly happy lives fishing from canoes.

Their god of Air and Light AAR RAA CA became
the storm god hurakan (stress on -kan) wherefrom
Spanish huracan (stress on -can), turned by the
English into hurricane. The Bird Women who Swam
GhI GYN NEO became Greek kyknos Latin cygnus
for swan. GYN NEO became Arawak canoa Spanish
canoa English canoe German Kanu 'canoe' and
Kahn 'barge, barque'. NEO became Greek neo 'I swim'
naus 'ship' archaic Swiss Naue 'ship' and is present
in English naval and nautical. The Fur Woman BIR GYN
accounts for virgin, also for German bergen for to hold
and protect, also for to rescue, especially naufragates,
and is present in German Herberge 'hostel' (not akin
to German Berg from BIR RAG as explained at length
in my Czech series). BIR GYN also became English
barge barque German Barke Italian and Spanish barca
while the Fur Giver BIR GID is present in a female given
name. BIR GYN also accounts for Balagans of my fable,
BIR in the development of Latin pellis German Fell
Pelz English pelt, also German Wolle English wool,
accounting for Bala-, and GYN for -gans. Long necked
water birds were sacred to the northern hunters, which
we know from Magdalenian ivory figurines (Marija
Gimbutas), among them wild geese, German Gans
for goose. Greek naos 'temple, inner sanctuary' is akin
to naus 'ship' and originally named the sanctuary of
the goddess in the guise of a waterbird. The legend
of a swan lake survived in Russian tales, one of them
inspiring Tchaikovsky's ballet of the same name,
The Swan Lake. ORE EON names the beautiful ORE
bank or shore EON of the heavenly river or lake CA LAK
wherefrom Galaxy and Milky Way, abode of the Orion
goddess in early times, heavenly emanation of the
fur giver BIR GID and her helpers the fur women
BIR GYN.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-23 07:36:38 UTC

(the hummingbird calendar of the Salish would
correspond to the jaguar calendaqr of early Peru,
also the Salish might have used a multiple calendar
based on the numbers below)

Chavin, early Peru, multiple animal calendar
(concise version))

A beautiful and impressive Chavin exhibition in
the Rietberg Museum Zurich allows me to reconstruct
a multiple animal calendar of early Peru. The basic
period of the condor calendar was 26 days (large and
elaborate gold crown from Kuntur Wasi, Condor's Nest),
the one of the jaguar calendar 30 days (smaller and
simpler but heavier gold crown from Kuntur Wasi),
the one of the Zarpan spider 36 days (gold crown from
Zarpan), the one of the Sipan spider 45 days (gold
rattle from Sipan), and the one of the snake from Sipan
(also encoded on the gold rattle) 137 days, the sum of
26 and 30 and 36 and 45 days.

26 days of the condor
30 days of the jaguar
36 days of the Zarpan spider
45 days of the Sipan spider

137 days of the snake (sum of 26 30 36 45)

1 condor (string) for 26 days
7 condors for half a year (182 days)
14 condors 1 knot for a regular year (365 days)
14 condors 2 knots for a leap year (366 days£)
92 condors for 81 moons (2392 days)
(mistake four hours in fifty years)

1 jaguar (string) for 30 days
6 jaguars 2 knots for half a year (182 days)
12 jaguars 5 knots for a regular year (365 days)
12 jaguars 6 knots for a leap year (366 days)
63 jaguars for 64 moons (1890 days)
(mistake half a day in a lifetime)

1 Zarpan spider (string) for 36 days
3 Zarpan spiders 2 knots for half a year (182 days)
6 Zarpan spiders 5 knots for a regular year (365 days)
6 Zarpan spiders 6 knots for a leap year (366 days)
105 Zarpan spiders for 128 moons (3,780 dfays)
(mistake half a day in a lifetime)

1 Sipan spider (string) for 45 days
4 Sipan spiders 2 knots for half a year (182 days)
8 Sipan spiders 5 knots for a regular year (365 days)
8 Sipan spiders 6 knots for a leap year (366 days)
21 Sipan spiders for 32 moons (945 days)
(mistake half a day in a lifetime)

1 snake (string) for 137 days
8 snakes for 3 years (1096 days)
32 snakes minus 1 knot for 12 years (4383 days)
97 snakes for 450 moons (13,289 days)

3 regular years of 365 days plus one leap year of 366
days are 1461 days
12 years are 3 times 1461 days or 4,383 days
32 times 137 days minus 1 day are 4,383 days
12 tropical years are 4,382.90... days
(mistake of the Sipan value one day in 128 years)

30 29 30 29 30 29 30 ... days for 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... moons
15 and 17 moons are 443 and 502 days respectively
17 15 17 15 17 moons are 502 945 1447 1890 2392
days for 17 32 49 64 81 moons

49 64 64 64 64 64 81 moons are 450 moons
1447 1890 1890 1890 1890 1890 2392 days
are 13,289 days for 450 moons
450 tropical 'moons' are 13,288.765... days
(mistake of the Sipan value 1 day in 154 years)

12 years may have been the long solar period of Sipan
(inherited by the Moche and their creator god of twelve
hair locks). Twelve years would have been counted
on 32 snake strings that would have been kept in
coiled form in 28 square chests and 4 round chests,
as indicated by the gold spider rattle from Sipan.
The spider god has two arms and two legs, plus four
double-snake protuberances accounting for eight
spider legs. Embossed in the protuberances are
open snake mouths at the outer ends, plus 4 and 4
and again 4 and 4 framed squares above, and 3 and 3
and again 3 and 3 framed squares below, in all 28
framed squares for 28 square chests keeping as many
coiled-up long strings of 137 knots each. Four more
strings would have been kept in round chests, indicated
by 2 and 2 small turquoise discs on the cheeks of the
spider god, two on the left and two on the right cheek.
So we have 28 square and 4 round chests, in all 32
chests keeping the coiled strings of 137 knots each.
12 years are 32 snake strings minus one knot,
a subtraction that might have been symbolized by
a zeremonial (symbolical) beheading of a snake man.
The spider god holds in his right hand (on the left
side of the rattle) a braided leather string ending in
a zeremonial knive, and in his left hand (on the right
side of the rattle) a male head by the long snake-like
string of hairs, encoding the mathematical operation
in a symbolic sacrifice.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-23 08:10:28 UTC

Andean cross measured in calendar strings,
Building 2 of Sechin Bajo

Let us turn the calendar strings into measures
of length, beginning with the knotted strings
of the condor and Sipan spider and snake

condor 26, spider 45, snake 137

If the side of a square measure 28 condors
12 snakes 28 condors, the diagonal measures
32 snakes, implicit ratio of side to diagonal
775 to 1096 from a number column the first lines
of which are 5 4 10, 9 14 18, 23 32 45, 55 78 110,
133 188 266, 321 454 642, 775 1096 ... (add
neighboring numbers, double each first number).

Define a rectangle as follows. The long side
measures 12 snakes (middle section of the square)
and the diagonal 40 spiders. Add four rectangles to
the square, one to the middle section of each side
- and already you have the Andean cross which is
a calendar cross, for the periphery of the entire cross
represents 50 years and the diagonal of the square
the sacred period of 12 years.

Each inverse corner represents 8 half years of
182 days (must have been an important period
of time) plus 5 days, in all 1461 days or four years,
365 365 365 366 days, or 364 364 364 364 5 days.
The long element of 12 snakes represents 9 half
years of 182 days plus 6 days. All four long elements
together represent 18 years (not even forty hours
more). The 32 years of the inverse corners and
the 18 years of the long elements yield 50 years
(not even two days more, a small mistake).

If you wish to draw an Andean cross on paper
you may begin with these measurements

28 condors 18.2 mm
12 snakes 41.1 mm
side of square 77.5 mm
diagonal of square 109.6 mm
diagonal of added rectangle 45 mm

The resulting cross looks very fine, typically Andean.
For a larger cross multiply the measurements by
a convenient factor. The oldest Andean cross I know
of appears on the Tello Obelisk at Chavin de Huantar,
between 3,500 and 3,000 years old.

Building 2 of Sechin Bajo raises my interest: inner
division a cross, inner court a square measuring
some 1025 by 1025 centimeters. If the inner court
has a width of 28 condors 12 snakes 28 condors
(above square of the Andean cross), the unit is
practically 3 centimeters, allowing the following
precisions

condor strings of 26 knots -- 78 centimeters
jaguar string of 30 knots -- 90 centimeters
Zarpan spider string of 36 knots -- 108 cm
Sipan spider string of 45 knots -- 135 cm
snake string of 137 knots -- 411 centimeters

The diagonal of the court would measure 32 snakes
indicating a period of 12 years 1 day, while the slightly
rounded corners symbolically remove the one day
and leave the sacred period of 12 years. We may
conclude that the central court of Sechin Bajo 2 was
holy to the spider god of counting and measuring time.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-24 09:07:31 UTC

Sechin Bajo 2 again, apologizing for my blunder,
world formula of early Peru (Chakana)

Here you are with my adequate explanation of
the modified inner sanctuary of Sechin Bajo 2,
unlike the blunder from yesterday

3 by 3 Sipan snakes, 135 by 135 knots,
knot 7.6 cm or a little more, corresponding
to the ancient measure of the palm

11 113 11 by 11 113 11 knots or palms

radius of rounded corners 11 knots or palms

perhiphery 26 condors or 520 knots

ideally 1 condor or 26 knots or palms
for niche and wall or niche and passage

The knot of a shorter calendar string would have
measured 1.9 cm or a little more, ancient measure
of the finger(breadth). Here again the numbers of
knots, you may then calculate the lengths of the
measuring and calendar strings yourself

condor 26
jaguar 30
Zarpan spider 36
Sipan spider 45
snake 137 (sum of 26 30 36 45)

Now let us insert the missing part of the Chakana
or Andean cross, the circle in the center.

Square of the Chakana

side 28 condors 12 snakes 28 condors
diagonal 32 snakes
32 snakes minus 1 day being 12 years

added rectangles

long side 12 snakes
diagonal 40 Sipan spiders

circle in the center

diameter 31 Sipan spiders
circumference 12 years

12 years would have been the sacred period of time,
counted as follows

32 snake strings minus 1 knot

365 365 366 365
365 365 366 365
365 365 366 365 days

182 812 182 182 182 182 182 182 5
182 182 182 182 182 182 182 182 5
182 182 182 182 182 182 182 182 5 days

1461 1461 1461 days or 4383 days

The inner sanctuary of Sechin Bajo 2 contains
the circle of the corner, radius 11 diameter 22
circumference 69 knots or palms, and an imaginary
circle in the central square 113 by 113 knots or palms,
circumference 355 knots or palms, while the circle
in the center of the Chakana has a diameter of
1395 knots or fingers and a circumference of
4383 knots or fingers. How are these numbers
obtained?

Pi is less than 4/1 but a little more than 3/1.
Begin with 4/1 and add repeatedly 3 to 4,
and 1 to 1

4/1 (plus 3/1) 7/2 10/3 13/4 16/5 19/6 22/7

Begin with 3/1 and add repeatedly 22/7

3/1 (plus 22/7) 25/8 ... 69/22 ... 355/113 ...

Begin with 3/1 in the form of 27/9 and add
repeatedly 22n / 7n, n being a factor of 198
(1 2 3 6 9 11 18 22 33 66 99 198)

27/9 (plus 22/7) 49/16 ... 4383 / 1395
27/9 (plus 44/14) 71/23 ... 4383 / 1395
27/9 (plus 66/21) 93/30 ... 4383 / 1395

and so on

Simple but clever methods like this were
discovered independently in various parts
of the world. They provide many values.
One can then choose the one that comes
handy in a given calculation (another way
of dealing with irrationals, but no less valid).

The Chakana may have been the world formula
of early Peru, surviving in the emblem we know
as Andean cross.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-25 09:58:11 UTC

fair history of civilization / Chavin Sipan, Chakana,
Pachamama

Calendars are the 'spine' of Magdalenian, providing
the stability of numbers. In late 2005 I reconstructed
a lunisolar calendar which I first ascribed to the
astronomers of Tell Halaf in Asia Minor, then to the
Göbekli Tepe. In early 2006 followed the lunisolar
calendar of Lascaux that made me look out for
a matching language. From time to time I focus
on further calendars, in the last week (from Friday,
January 18, to Thursday, January 24) on the multiple
animal calendar of early Peru and its applications.
There are only so and so many numbers that are
good approximations of the complicated astronomical
cycles, easy to handle and encode both in mythological
stories and elements of visual language, reducing
the proverbial search for the needle in the haystack
to one in the haysack, as it were. In informed Dr. Peter
Fux, curator of the excellent Chavin exhibition in the
Rietberg Museum Zürich (the exhibition I visited on
Friday, January 18), Prof. Peter R. Fuchs, co-discoverer
of the sensational round building of Sechin Bajo 1,
and others of my calendar reconstructions and its
applications. Not having hopes. Mathematical
achievements of pre-Greek and outer-European
peoples obtained with original methods along the
formula 'simple yet clever' are still taboo. Excluded
from academe I work on my own, enjoying my freedom
and still believing that a fair history of civilization
including the one of mathematics, logic of building
and maintaining, is a sine qua non of a prospering
global society. I work fast, proceeding quickly. If others
can't follow me, I fly alone, rashing along on the wings
of my mind, having only this life and these remaining
years for my work and 'mission'.

See me use my freedom in explaining Chavin and
Sipan from CA PAS, CA for sky, Old Latin caelum,
and PAS for everywhere in a plain, here, south and
north of me, east and west of me, in all five places,
Greek pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five'. Chavin
de Huantar in the mountains and Sipan near the
coast may have been rivalling centers of early Peru,
each claiming the place under the center of the sky,
the sky extending from over here to the south and
north, east and west. CA for sky may also be present
in Cha- of Chakana, the Andean cross, and GYN for
woman in -kana, the circle in the center of the emblem
representing the fertile womb of Pachamama, from
PAS CA AMA, everywhere PAS under the sky PAS
mother AMA

PAS CA AMA PA ChA mAMA

There might have been an early plaza in the shape
of the Anden cross Chakana, celebrating a mythical
union of the fertile earth mother, still worshipped in
Peru, and the sky above. While the elaborate form
of the Chakana may provisionally be dated to around
3 500 BP and a school around a Peruvian 'Imhotep',
an earlier simpler form of the Chakana remains
a possibility.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-26 09:10:30 UTC

Chakana of Sipan (a fable in numbers)

The Chakana emblem on the Tello-Obelisk at
Chavin de Huantar guided my astronomical
reconstruction of the Andean cross. Looking out
for a simpler shape of the same astronomical
relevance I discovered a pleasing solution,
here given in the form of a numerical fable.

The Chakana plaza of Sipan was a fairly large square,
the corners marked with fires burning on poles, Four
stairways lead to a lower square, and in the center
was a still lower circle.

Here are the numbers. The large square had been
subdivided into six by six small squares. The fire poles
were placed in the centers of the small corner squares.
Between them, stairways were dug into the ground,
each covering 2 small squares. Then a wider square
was dug into the ground, covering the 4 by 4 inner
small squares of the grid. The stairways and the lower
square yielded the Andean cross, periphery 24 units,
area 24 square units. In the center of the lower square
a circle was dug into the deeper ground, lowest level
of the sanctuary, radius 1 unit.

A Sipan spider string had 45 knots. The calendar string
was 45 fingers long (85.5 cm) and the measuring string
45 palms (342 cm). For the Chanaka plaza and sanctuary
a mini string was used, one knot for one day. A small
square of the grid measured 93 by 93 mini spiders,
the entire grid 558 by 558 mini spiders. The periphery
of the Chakana pattern represented 275 years (mistake
one point six days on the entire period of 100,440 days).
The circumference of the circle represented 72 years
(mistake two point three days on the entire period),
six time the sacred period of 12 years. And the diagonal
distance of the fire poles represented 81 years
(mistake seven point eight days on the entire period).

The Chakana sanctuary celebrated the mythic union
of the earth goddess Pachamama and the sky above.

Next time: from Alaska to Chile and Fireland,
fable of early Peru

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-27 09:38:51 UTC

fable of early Peru - from Alaska to Chile and Fireland

Picture Siberia in the Ice Age, eastern part of the
Magdalenian civilization covering Eurasia from the
refuge of the Franco-Cantabrian space to Malta
near Irkutsk on Lake Baikal. 13,000 years ago
several tribes from the Altai left Siberia, wandered
eastward, ventured along the ice bridge of the
Beringia into Alaska, followed the 'green trail'
southward, spread from there and slowly populated
the Americas (result of a recent genetical study).

Having traversed the ice bridge of the Beringia
they were amazed by mountains reaching the sky,
mountain LAS sky CA, together LAS CA which
named the Alaska Range and then the entire part
of the continent. People settled on the banks of
rivers and the shores of lakes which they called
SAL AC, watery ground of a valley SAL expanse
of land with water AC, wherefrom Salish and Selah.
They worshipped a beautiful cone-shaped mountain
as heavenly mountain CA LAS and witnessed
a minor eruption of the volcano we know in the
overforming of Mount St. Helens, comparing the
snow cap to the moon and the fire inside to the sun,
also to the white breast and red back of the male
Rufus hummingbird (scale never a concern of
mythology). They built astronomical observatories
of poles providing sighting lines of the rising and
setting sun on the equinoxes and solstices, also
of the lunar extremes. Their sanctuaries were circles
dug in the ground, the wall representing the sky CA
of everywhere PAS, here, in the south and north,
east and west (in all five places, Greek pas pan
'all,every' pente penta- 'five'), CA PAS kiva. Six
pillars along the wall of a typical Anasazi kiva of the
Pueblo period symbolized a basic year of six double
months or 360 days, while the fireplace represented
5 and occasionally 6 more days, yielding a regular
year of 365 and a leap year of 366 days, while 12
continuous periods of 30 days are 1,890 days and
correspond to 64 moons or lunations or synodic
months, mistake less than one minute per lunation,
or half a day in a lifetime.

Peru was reached before 12,000 years ago.
People settled in the river valleys. Many rivers
come from the long mountain range called for
the very rivers that flow toward AD the sea
while coming from DA the mountains, AD DA
having been a generic river formula, AD DA
Andes naming the mountain range of many rivers
(in a similar development as AD DA Indus flowing
toward AD the Arabic Sea while coming from DA
the heavenly mountain CAL LAS Mount Kailas
of the Kailas Range in the Himalayas). People
communicated with fires, brightly shining fires
by night, smoking fires by day, all along the
eastern side of the long mountain range,
naming the eastern side as PIR AC, fire PIR
expanse of land with water AC wherefrom Peru.
(When Magellan finally discovered the strait
named for him and passed it by night he saw
nothing but signal fires from the natives and
very appropriately called the region Fireland).
Astronomical observatories were made of poles
again, poles providing sighting lines of the rising
and setting sun, and again they built sanctuaries
in the form of circles dug in the ground called
CA PAS. Two famous CA PAS sanctuaries were
CA PAS Sipan near the coast and CA PAS Chavin
high up in the mountains, rivalling centers of early
Peru. In the round sanctuaries the mythical union
of PAS CA AMA with the sky above was celebrated,
everywhere PAS under the sky CA mother AMA,
PAS CA AMA - PA ChA mAMA - Pachamama
the earth mother. This early sanctuary was later
developed into the complex CA GYN Chakana
sanctuary in the shape of the Andean cross,
the calendar sanctuary of the union of the sky CA
and woman GYN, encoding several combined animal
calendars, periods of time counted on knotted strings.
While the northern mountains of the long range on
the eastern side of the northern half-continent was
named for the mountains reaching the sky, LAS CA
Alaska, the southern mountains of the southern
half-continent, sky reaching mountains, were called
CA LAS Chile. The Eurasian horse had been called
PAC, the Andean mountain horse was called LAS PAC
lama, naming Lima, the modern capital of Peru, also,
in an overforming, La Paz, capital of PAC LAS Bolivia,
apparently once a breeding and trading place of the
valuable Andean 'mountain horse'. Life in the early
Fire Land PIR AC Peru was held together by wandering
shamans and shamanesses CER who got everywhere
PAS and were respected by all tribal leaders, one of
their centers having been CER PAS Zarpan near Sipan.

Next time: lunar aspect of the hypothetical early
Chakana plaza and sanctuary at Sipan

(Annie's questions are being answered in a separate
thread)

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-28 10:01:46 UTC

postscript regarding the hypothetical Chakana plaza
and sanctuary at Sipan in around 3 500 BP

The diagonal distance of the fire poles representing
a solar period of 81 years would also represent
a lunar period of 1002 moons or lunations or synodic
months, in smaller numbers 334 moons for 27 years,
according to the following astronomical sequence
relating moons (first number) to years (second number)

37/3 (plus 99/8) 136/11 235/19 334/27

99 moons for 8 years -- Lascaux; Sumer and Akkad
136 moons for 11 years -- Mallia
235 moons for 19 years -- Knossos
334 moons for 27 years -- Sipan ?

The fire poles mark a square, one diagonal representing
81 years, the other 1002 lunations. The Chakana plaza
and sanctuary would then be a lunisolar complex,
worhshipping th earth goddess Pachamama in her
mythical union with the sky of moon and sun above.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2013-01-28 10:12:48 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
fable of early Peru - from Alaska to Chile and Fireland

The English for "Tierra del Fuego" is "Tierra del Fuego". You can call
it "Terre de Feu" if you prefer to write in French, or "Feuerland" in
German, if you like, but most English speakers won't have any idea
where Fireland is. In any case you don't need to write it at all
because "Alaska to Chile" includes Tierra del Fuego.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
--

athel

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-28 10:29:38 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
fable of early Peru - from Alaska to Chile and Fireland

I mentioned Fireland in the title of my fable
because it is the equivalent of PIR AC Peru,
as Chile is the equivalent of Alaska

sky CA
mountain LAS

mountains (reaching the) sky LAS CA Alaska
sky (reaching) mountains CA LAS Chile

Prof. Dr. Nathan Sanders, in 2006, told me that
my Magdalenian reconstructions are too close to
the recent forms. Well, I began with close matches,
but meanwhile I can bridge wide phonetical gaps
and link words and geographical names that could
not possibly be equated by the comparative method,
like the pretty example of LAS CA Alaska and
CA LAS Chile (also, in an overforming, Mount St.
Helens, and Mount Kailas of the Kailas Range
where the migthy Indus River springs, flowing toward
AD the Arabic Sea while coming from DA the CA LAS
Mount Kailas, AD DA Indus, a generic river formula,
and AD DA Andes, origin of many rivers AD DA
flowing toward AD the sea while coming from Da
the long and steep range of the Andes ...

Yusuf B Gursey

2013-01-28 14:04:52 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
fable of early Peru - from Alaska to Chile and Fireland

I mentioned Fireland in the title of my fable
because it is the equivalent of PIR AC Peru,
as Chile is the equivalent of Alaska
sky CA
mountain LAS
mountains (reaching the) sky LAS CA Alaska
sky (reaching) mountains CA LAS Chile
Prof. Dr. Nathan Sanders, in 2006, told me that
my Magdalenian reconstructions are too close to
the recent forms. Well, I began with close matches,
but meanwhile I can bridge wide phonetical gaps
and link words and geographical names that could
not possibly be equated by the comparative method,
like the pretty example of LAS CA Alaska and
CA LAS Chile (also, in an overforming, Mount St.
Helens, and Mount Kailas of the Kailas Range
where the migthy Indus River springs, flowing toward
AD the Arabic Sea while coming from DA the CA LAS

Arabian Sea

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Mount Kailas, AD DA Indus, a generic river formula,
and AD DA Andes, origin of many rivers AD DA
flowing toward AD the sea while coming from Da
the long and steep range of the Andes ...

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2013-01-28 14:11:53 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
fable of early Peru - from Alaska to Chile and Fireland

I mentioned Fireland in the title of my fable
because it is the equivalent of PIR AC Peru,
as Chile is the equivalent of Alaska

In what sense is Chile equivalent to Alaska? (The claim that Fireland
is the equivalent of PIR AC Peru makes no sense at all, so I'll pass on
that one.) In any case, you haven't explained why although your post is
in English you used (and continue to use) a place name that will be
unintelligible to the majority of English speakers.

--
athel

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-01-31 10:18:18 UTC

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
In what sense is Chile equivalent to Alaska? (The claim that Fireland
is the equivalent of PIR AC Peru makes no sense at all, so I'll pass on
that one.) In any case, you haven't explained why although your post is
in English you used (and continue to use) a place name that will be
unintelligible to the majority of English speakers.

You are clinging to the top down approach, unable
or unwilling to try out the Magdalenian approach
that makes an educated guess about a remote past
- Eurasia in the Ice Age - and then proceeds forward
in time, We know from recent genetical and
archaeological studies that Siberian tribes left the
Altai and settled between 12,000 and 9,000 years ago
in Peru. Imagine them facing the ice desert of the Beringia,
comparable to the Antarctica: Is this the end of the world?
No, it can't be, we see animals coming from over there.
What would await us on the other side? Where will
we get if we went on and on, toward the rising sun?
They dared go. Fifty kilometers, and still only flat
ice round about. Hundred kilometers, and nothing
but a flat horizon of ice. Hundred and fifty kilometers
- and now they saw mountains, high and steep
mountains LAS reaching the sky CA, so they called
them LAS CA wherefrom Alaska Range and Alaska
as name of the region. They followed the green trail
southward, and went ever farther south, and always
always always there were high mountains, till the far
southern end of the land, sky reaching mountains
CA LAS Chile ... Now imagine a few early tribes
in the vast, immense expanses of coast and hills
and mountains, easily lost and out of reach.
How could they keep in contact with each other?
By means of signal fires on hilltops, brightly shining
fires by night, smoking fires by day. Did they have
any other means of communicating over distance
and ask each other for help if necessary? I answer
with a brief dialogue. A father tells his son to gather
wood for a signal fire. This one, lazying around,
takes hold of a small pebble, talks into it, then places
the pebble close to his ear, pretending to hear a voice,
beams, and tells his father: I just invented a pebble
phone, no need any more for signal fires ... His father
sighs, and replies: Get up, lazybones, and gather
the wood for the signal fire I asked for, there are
no pebble phones, and never will be ... Signal fires
would have named the entire western shoreline
including the hill and mountains, PIR AC Fire Land,
surviving in Peru. Signal fires were still used when
Magellan arrived, he saw them in the southernmost
region of the continent, and called that region for
them, Fire Land, Tierra (land) del (of the) Fuego
(fire, signal fires - the land is cold, no fiery climate).

Yusuf B Gursey

2013-01-31 11:55:35 UTC

You are clinging to the top down approach, unable
or unwilling to try out the Magdalenian approach
that makes an educated guess about a remote past

in other words dreams up

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
- Eurasia in the Ice Age - and then proceeds forward
in time, We know from recent genetical and

you can't know what was spoken that way. you can only dream it up
based on your fantasies that have formed in th e present.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
archaeological studies that Siberian tribes left the
Altai and settled between 12,000 and 9,000 years ago
in Peru. Imagine them facing the ice desert of the Beringia,
comparable to the Antarctica: Is this the end of the world?
No, it can't be, we see animals coming from over there.
What would await us on the other side? Where will
we get if we went on and on, toward the rising sun?
They dared go. Fifty kilometers, and still only flat
ice round about. Hundred kilometers, and nothing
but a flat horizon of ice. Hundred and fifty kilometers
- and now they saw mountains, high and steep
mountains LAS reaching the sky CA, so they called
them LAS CA wherefrom Alaska Range and Alaska
as name of the region. They followed the green trail
southward, and went ever farther south, and always
always always there were high mountains, till the far
southern end of the land, sky reaching mountains
CA LAS Chile ... Now imagine a few early tribes
in the vast, immense expanses of coast and hills
and mountains, easily lost and out of reach.
How could they keep in contact with each other?
By means of signal fires on hilltops, brightly shining
fires by night, smoking fires by day. Did they have
any other means of communicating over distance
and ask each other for help if necessary? I answer
with a brief dialogue. A father tells his son to gather
wood for a signal fire. This one, lazying around,
takes hold of a small pebble, talks into it, then places
the pebble close to his ear, pretending to hear a voice,
beams, and tells his father: I just invented a pebble
phone, no need any more for signal fires ... His father
sighs, and replies: Get up, lazybones, and gather
the wood for the signal fire I asked for, there are
no pebble phones, and never will be ... Signal fires
would have named the entire western shoreline
including the hill and mountains, PIR AC Fire Land,
surviving in Peru. Signal fires were still used when
Magellan arrived, he saw them in the southernmost
region of the continent, and called that region for
them, Fire Land, Tierra (land) del (of the) Fuego
(fire, signal fires - the land is cold, no fiery climate).

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2013-01-31 12:50:45 UTC

[ ... ]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Signal fires were still used when
Magellan arrived, he saw them in the southernmost
region of the continent, and called that region for
them, Fire Land, Tierra (land) del (of the) Fuego
(fire, signal fires - the land is cold, no fiery climate).

All that (428 words) in response to a simple question, that you never
do get around to answering: when writing in English why use a name that
few English-speakers will understand?

I know perfectly well what "Tierra del Fuego" means, but that doesn't
alter the fact that no one calls it "Fireland".

Actually, I think more likely that Magellan named it in Portuguese
rather than Spanish, which would probably be something like Terra do
Fogo, but António will know.

--
athel

António Marques

2013-01-31 23:02:00 UTC

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
In what sense is Chile equivalent to Alaska? (The claim that Fireland

is the equivalent of PIR AC Peru makes no sense at all, so I'll pass on
that one.) In any case, you haven't explained why although your post is
in English you used (and continue to use) a place name that will be
unintelligible to the majority of English speakers.
You are clinging to the top down approach, unable

or unwilling to try out the Magdalenian approach
that makes an educated guess about a remote past
- Eurasia in the Ice Age - and then proceeds forward
in time,

[ ... ]

All that (428 words) in response to a simple question, that you never do
get around to answering: when writing in English why use a name that few
English-speakers will understand?
I know perfectly well what "Tierra del Fuego" means, but that doesn't
alter the fact that no one calls it "Fireland".
Actually, I think more likely that Magellan named it in Portuguese rather
than Spanish, which would probably be something like Terra do Fogo, but António will know.

I actually don't, though I seem to recall having seen that issue discussed
once. He was leading a Spanish expedition with Spanish aides and crew, so
the assumption would be that he named it in Spanish, at least aloud. but
I'd the traditional explanation for the name is true, it's odd it isn't 'de
fuegos' (Portuguese could have 'de fogos' or 'dos fogos'). I would rather
put my money on something to do with atmospheric phenomena.

--
Sent from one of my newsreaders

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-01 08:40:54 UTC

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
All that (428 words) in response to a simple question, that you never
do get around to answering: when writing in English why use a name that
few English-speakers will understand?
I know perfectly well what "Tierra del Fuego" means, but that doesn't
alter the fact that no one calls it "Fireland".
Actually, I think more likely that Magellan named it in Portuguese
rather than Spanish, which would probably be something like Terra do
Fogo, but António will know.

You claim to not understand Fireland, because you look
at a map of the Americas, where the region is given as
Tierra del Fuego. You are not willing to empathize with
the Siberians who ventured along the eastern shores
of the Americas. I tell my fable along their wanderings,
and how they experienced the land, and named it.
Geographical names are often wrong, the Pacific is
not peaceful at all, but was unnaturally still on the day
the first Europeans led eyes on it. PIR AC Fire Land
accounts for Peru and Fire Land in the form of Tierra
del Fuego. Even you understood my term Fire Land.
So what is the problem?

pauljk

2013-02-01 09:20:00 UTC

You claim to not understand Fireland, because you look
at a map of the Americas, where the region is given as
Tierra del Fuego.

The purpose of writing words in a particular language is
to communicate with people speaking that language.
Here, while you are communicating with speakers of English,
to communicate effectively, you are expected to use English
words and geographical names known to be used by English
speakers. Your map of the Americas gives the name of the
region in question as <Tierra del Fuego>. That is because in
English speaking societies that is the region's name.

By inventing your own words and names not used in any
Earthly language you obfuscate your narrative and make
yourself look (even more) silly.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
You are not willing to empathize with
the Siberians who ventured along the eastern shores
of the Americas.

I beg your pardon?
The "ancient Siberians" called it <Fireland>?
pjk

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I tell my fable along their wanderings,
and how they experienced the land, and named it.
Geographical names are often wrong, the Pacific is
not peaceful at all, but was unnaturally still on the day
the first Europeans led eyes on it. PIR AC Fire Land
accounts for Peru and Fire Land in the form of Tierra
del Fuego. Even you understood my term Fire Land.
So what is the problem?

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2013-02-01 18:48:49 UTC

You claim to not understand Fireland,

I claim no such thing. I have no difficulty understanding "Fireland";
I'm just pointing out that it's not called that. If we all joined
Arnaud in calling you Gaggithaler there'd be no problem in
communication, as we'd all know who was meant, but you could reasonably
object that it's not your name.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
because you look
at a map of the Americas, where the region is given as
Tierra del Fuego.

I don't need to look at a map, as I know what it's called.

I suspect that I've spent a great deal more time in Chile (albeit not
yet in Tierra del Fuego) than you have, and that I know a great deal
more about its geography than you do.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
You are not willing to empathize with
the Siberians who ventured along the eastern shores
of the Americas. I tell my fable along their wanderings,
and how they experienced the land, and named it.
Geographical names are often wrong, the Pacific is
not peaceful at all, but was unnaturally still on the day
the first Europeans led eyes on it. PIR AC Fire Land
accounts for Peru and Fire Land in the form of Tierra
del Fuego. Even you understood my term Fire Land.
So what is the problem?

--
athel

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-01 08:43:04 UTC

(You may remember my reconstruction of the
calendar of the Zarpan spider. Well, I found
a numerically identical calendar in Central Asia)

fable of the bear man in the bear mountains,
Arkeisios at Erzurum

TYR who overcomes in the double sense of rule
and give was the sky god of the first Indo-European
homeland on the banks of the Amu Darya, centered
in the triangle of Termez - Kunduz - Kurgan T'upe,
Tirac in the Bible, from TYR AC, ruler TYR of an
expanse of land with water AC. Magdalenian TYR
became emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos
Disc, Derk Ohlenroth) Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld)
Homeric Zeus. TYR was both the sky god above
and his representative on earth. Among his 'sons'
or descendants was Arkeisios (Homeric lineage
Zeus Arkeisios Laertes Odysseus Telemachos),
ARC AIS IAS, the bear (man) ARC is our fate AIS
and salvation IAS. His people were miners in
the Alai Mountains that contain copper and tin
in the same veins and loads. The mines were
called GRA KOS and KAL LAS, painted cave GRA
heavenly vault KOS cave KAL mountain LAS,
comparing a mine of rich veins and loads to
a painted cave and starry sky inside a mountain.
Arkeisios the bear man led his GRA KOS and
KAL LAS people westward, using the heavenly
bear for his orientation, the constellation we know
as Big Dipper seen as bear, the then pole above
the neck of the heavnly bear CA ARC. They followed
the southern shore of the Caspian Sea and came
to a land of high mountains and long ranges he
named for the heavenly bear, CA ARC Georgia.
Then they reached the mountains of northeast
Anatolia he named for the bear ARC and mostly
for the bear-head CAR, bear mountains and
bear-head mountains. He won friends among
the locals, AAR RAA MAN, they who carry out the
will of the heavenly one of air AAR and light RAA
with their right hand MAN. He settled for a while
among the Armenians in a place named for both
of them, ARC AAR RAA MAN Erzerum Erzirum,
also CAR EN Karin, in EN the bear-head mountains
CAR. Later on he wandered further westward and
finally reached a fertile sea land he named for his
GRA KOS and KAL LAS people, Greece and Hellas.

Arkeisios wore a necklace in form of a leather string
on which were drawn up five and five bear claws,
in between them a stone pendant, symbolizing a year
and encoding a lunisolar calendar. A week had nine
days (Homeric week). A 'claw' had four weeks or
36 days, a basic year ten claws or 360 days, plus 5
and occasionally 6 more days - two and sometimes
three days of midwinter, three days of midsummer.
In between the solstices were the five claws of the
climbing sun, spring equinox in the middle of the
middle claw, and the five claws of the lowering sun,
fall equinox in the middle of the middle claw.
Sun and moon were related by a set of formulae
generated by the pairs of the first lines of each block

9 claws for 11 moons
32 claws for 39 moons (add them repeatedly)
41 claws for 50 moons
73 claws for 89 moons
105 claws for 128 moons
137 claws for 167 moons (double them)

254 claws for 334 moons or 27 years

37 moons for 3 years (12 12 13 moons)
99 moons for 8 years (add them repeatedly)
136 moons for 11 years
235 moons for 19 years
334 moons for 27 years or 254 claws

(bear calendar inspired by a recently discovered
Bronze Age seal from the region of the Amu Darya
in form of a rosette of five petals around a small
circle, as I recall, suggesting a basic year of five
times 72 days, composed of two basic half-years
of five times 36 days, numerically the same
calendar as the one reconstructed from a drawing
of the stolen gold spider crown of Zarpan near
Sipan, early Peru, Chavin culture)

Peter T. Daniels

2013-02-01 12:59:39 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
(You may remember my reconstruction of the
calendar of the Zarpan spider.

No, but ...

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Well, I found
a numerically identical calendar in Central Asia)

You find it striking that people inhabiting the same planet, with the
same periods of rotation and revolution, manage to count the same
number of days in each such period?

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-02 09:16:51 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
You find it striking that people inhabiting the same planet, with the
same periods of rotation and revolution, manage to count the same
number of days in each such period?

No, I make my calendar reconstructions more plausible
by showing that the same pre-Greek methods of counting
heavenly cycles were used in various parts of the ancient
world and led to basically the same set of early lunisolar
calendars in the Mesolithic and Neolithic periods of time.
And they went along with a common language, Magdalenian
from Eurasia in the Ice Age.

Peter T. Daniels

2013-02-02 12:39:47 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
You find it striking that people inhabiting the same planet, with the
same periods of rotation and revolution, manage to count the same
number of days in each such period?

As I said, how is it possible for any two cultures who feel the need
for a lunisolar calendar _not_ to come up with essentially the same
thing?

The incompatibility of the solar and lunar cycles is the same
everywhere on earth.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-03 08:48:02 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
As I said, how is it possible for any two cultures who feel the need
for a lunisolar calendar _not_ to come up with essentially the same
thing?
The incompatibility of the solar and lunar cycles is the same
everywhere on earth.

And different in every other solar, planetary and lunar
system, yes, but the problem here is to first establish
those lunisolar calendars. If I tried to publish them
in a journal I would have to write letters for one hundred
and fifty years. No, that is an exaggeration. I would have
to write letters for not much longer than one hundred
and forty-five years. For the first seventy years I would
not get an answer at all. Perhaps in year seventy-five
one editor might feel obliged, perhaps, to give me
a reason for their silence, and would tell me that
single calendar reconstructions mean nothing, what
is required are series of calendars. Anticipating that
answer I gather early calendar reconstructions,
supporting one by the other. It won't help me any,
but it will perhaps help my followers after several
generations to come through, perbe and mayhapsly.
The camels of Edustan carry their noses very high,
you must know.

Yusuf B Gursey

2013-02-03 12:18:32 UTC

they have been studied you know. you don't have a single reference.
also, unless you analyze month names and other calendrical
terminology, your posts have nothing to do with sci.lang

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-04 07:49:05 UTC

A genuine understanding of early times and language
can't come from back-projecting the Quran B (Islamic
dictionairy) into the remote past, it has to come from
reading the rich legacy of the Stone Age and Ice Age
and momuments like the Göbekli Tepe, messages
conveyed in visual language. What I do is read visual
language and translate it into my freestyle English.
My Magdalenian experiment, which makes words
and names talk and tell stories - also geographical
names like Alaska nad Chile tell stories - is based
on decades of studying and reading visual language.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-05 07:35:20 UTC

Fire Land, curling smoke

Fire signals - brightly shining fires by night, smoking
fires by day - would once have named Ecuador Peru
Bolivia Chile, PIR AC Fire Land, surviving in PIR AC
Peru.

PIR AC Paris (ville des lumières) would suggest
a bonfire on the hill Montmartre, guiding boats on
the Seine in Neolithic and Celtic times, perhaps
the center of chains of signal fires connecting the
Ile-de-France.

Paris prince of Troy abducted beautiful Helen,
Homeric symbol of tin (as explained many times)
and may have been responsible for fires, from
the ones of the smiths to the signal fires that may
have connected for example Troy and the harbor
on the Besik bay.

The Greeks maintained long chains of signal fires.
Going by the names, one of them might have
connected Korinth and Athens via PIR AC Periglia
on the shore north of ancient (and west of modern)
Korinth and PIR AC Piraeus, the sea port of Athens,
in both cases involving bonfires guiding ships.

The patron of the people watching out for fire sginals
would have been euruopa Zeus, far looking Zeus
(Odyssey 2:146 4:173 11:436 14:235 17:322 24:544).

TYR Sseyr Sseus Zeus also named Troy, in the form
of TYR PAS, overcomer TYR everywhere PAS, in the
center of the sky above Troy, in the south and north,
east and west, as Troy itself, on the hill of the Hisarlik,
dominated the fertile plain of the Troas, the fields in
the south and fast flowing Dardanelles in the north,
hills and mountains in the east and the Mediterranean
shore with the Besik bay harbor in the west, while
the citadel on the hill might have been called POL AS
Wilusa Wilios Ilion, fortified settlement POL up above
AS on the hill, the acropolis of Ilion having been the
one eye of Divine Polyphem, watching out for fire
signals in the plain, and flashing fire signals to
various stations in the Troas.

The name of the Celtic sky god Lugh accounts for
Lugdanum Lyon on the confluence of Saone and Rhone,
perhaps another center of signal fire chains. Our Swiss
National Day is August 1, coinciding with the Celtic Lugh
festival, celebrated with bonfires on hilltops and mountain
slopes, perhaps reminiscent of an old way of communicating
over distance in the hills and mountains. Lugnez, a region
in the valley of the Upper Rhine, might once have been
a place of signal fires. The name of Lugh derives from
Magdalenian LIC for light and luck, associated in northern
languages. If you never spent a pitch black moonless night
in the mountains (no street lamps, no cars, no houses,
nobody underway, no cell phone, no torch and no matches)
you don't know what blessing a light can be, in earlier times
a fire indicating a human presence. Loving the Alps and
remembering a wide variety of sensations, among them
such a black night, I can empathize with the need of the
early Andean peoples for signal fires marking presence
and offering help, asking for help and promising help -
we shall come, just wait.

Exchanges of fire signals might be encoded on the Tello-
Obelisk at Chavin de Huantar, in the form of long vertical
strings of interlocking triangluar teeth and intermittent
fangs, connecting an upper and a lower head (on two
opposite faces of the obelisk), suggesting a sequence
of signals conveyed by one station, here given in round
symbols, ooo 0 ooo 0 ooo, repeated by the other station,
o o o 0 o o o 0 o o o . Curls and waving lines on the
Lanzon at Chavin de Hunatar evoke smoke rings and
signals conveyed by smoking fires. I believe that the
curvilinear Celtic style was inspired by dancing flames.
Can it be that the peculiar Sibero-American style was
inspired by curling smoke?

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-06 09:54:02 UTC

(for comparison, and as a lesson in reading visual
language)

Genesis according to the Göbekli Tepe (fire and water)

)OG BIR AC CA

LOG BIR AC CA

In the beginning was the fire giver PIR GID who had
the say )OG or LOG. She summoned her sister the
fur giver BIR GID. This one took hold of her cosmic fur
BIR and scooped the primeval hill BIR LAD out of the
primeval sea, the hill LAD in the cosmic fur BIR.
Now the fire giver PIR GID summoned her sister
the fertility giver BRI GID. This one took the primeval
hill and formed a ring, separating earth AC and sky CA,
the primeval earth being the ring, and the primeval sky
the hollow of the ring. Then she planted the seeds of life.
In the hollow of the ring appeared a male head, the sky
god AAR RAA NOS, he of air AAR and light RAA with
a mind NOS. His eyes were moon and sun, lit by the
fire giver. The sky god called for GIS BAL CA MmOS.
This one broke the ring into the upper half of the sky CA
and the lower half of the earth AC, and flattened both.
Hereupon AD DA MAN created rivers, rivers that flow
toward AD the sea while coming from DA the hills and
mountains, and made them with his right hand MAN.
PIR GID warmed the earth from within, with her fire
seen in volcanos, and AAR RAA NOS warmed the
soil from above, with his solar eye, and spent rain,
moistening the ground. The seeds of life germinated.
Plants grew, animals emerged from clefts and niches
in the rock, and populated all parts of the world, plains
and hills and mountains, rivers and lakes and the sea,
even the sky above.

The fire giver PIR GID had helpers in the fire archers
PIR RYT who celebrated her day, New Year's Eve
(second or third day of the midwinter festival of two
and sometimes three days) by shooting fire arrows
into the night sky. Fire arrows were used for sending
signals from one to another place, and in rituals
imploring rain from the sky god, rain that filled the
water holes and river beds, and so it came that the
fire archers PIR RYT and their 'fingers of light and luck'
DIG LIC named the rivers, PIR RYT Firat Euphrates
and DIG LIC Dicle Tigris.

Prayers and the smoke of sacrificial fires imploring
rain were symbolized by snakes heading upward,
falling rain rewarding the prayers and sacrificial fires
were symbolized by snakes heading downward -
snakes being by far the most frequent symbols on
Göbekli Tepe pillars -, and fire arrows shot into the
night sky were symbolized by arrow heads shooting
upward, also by zigzag lines following an arrow head
on its flight into the sky above.

GIS BAL CA MmOS, gesture GIS hot BAL sky CA
offspring MmOS, the gesturing hotheaded heavenly
offspring, is known in the form of GISh.BIL.GA.MISh
Gilgamesh, and in the short form of BAL Baal.

AD DA MAN creator of rivers became Adam the early
farmer irrigating fields, and date groves in Sumer.
The fertility giver BRI GID had an alter ego in AC CA
and became Hebrew Hawwa 'mother of all life'
English Eve. AC CA also accounts for the Egyptian
earth god Aker, while the region of the Göbekli Tepe
might have been remembered as the Syrian province
of aqa. AC CA also named the Indo-European earth
goddess akka (Julius Pokorny) and is present in
German Acker 'field'. Latin aqua 'water' names the
life spending element in the exchange of earth AC
and sky CA, together AC CA aqua 'water'.

AD DA became a generic river formula and named
Eden, the garden Eden framed by the big rivers,
guarded by the fires of Gabriel. The region of the
Göbekli Tepe was a paradise 12,000 years ago,
lush meadows and groves and game galore.
Agriculture was invented in this region and period
of time, the fields, we may assume, guarded with
fires against animals, also with water ditches,
in a similar planting system as the one known
from the Andes, in the region of Lake Titicaca.
Fire would have played a similar multifunctional
role as in early South America.

(Interpretations of the hieroglyphs on the necks
of the female and central pillar of temple D;
of the big limestone ring showing a male head
ex negativo, consisting of nothing than air and light;
of the hieroglyphs on pillar 33, temple D; of the
fragment of a stone tablet from Tell 'Abr 3 and
stone tablets from Jerf el Amar, and of the snakes
on very many pillars of the Göbekli Tepe and other
still un-excavated sites in the wider region of the
Göbekli Tepe, religious and cultural center of an
area as large as Switzerland)

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-07 08:21:56 UTC

(the Göbekli Tepe calendar explained below
had numerical parallels in the hummingbird
calendar of the Salish and jaguar calendar
of Kuntur Wasi in Peru, while the observatory
of a circle of a dozen poles would have worked
for the geographical latitude of the Colorado
Plateau in the north and the ones of Santiago
de Chile and Buenos Aires in the south)

early Göbekli Tepe, observatory and sanctuary,
Nevali Cori (Chori)

12,000 years ago the large limestone hill of the
Göbekli Tepe was covered in an up to five meters
deep layer of earth, requiring two million fillings
of fur or leather bags, all carried up the slope,
a good thirty of them depicted on a stone tablet
from Jerf el-Ahmar (which I shall interpret at length
in one of my next messages). On one of the four
hilltops, I postulate, was built an astronomical
observatory that also was a sanctuary of the
female triad and the male triad who had created
the world (as explained in my previous message).
The observatory consisted of a cirlce of a dozen
poles (anticipating the dial of a clock), four poles
marking the cardinal directions, all of them, in
various combinations, providing sighting lines
of the rising and setting sun on the equinoxes
and solstices, owing to the geographical latitude
of the place. Each pole represented a month of
30 days, all of them a basic year of 360 days
(accounting for the cirlce of as many degrees).
In the center of the circle stood a pair of larger poles.
The space between them added 5 and occasionally
6 more days to a regular year of 365 and a leap year
of 366 days - three days of midsummer, two and
occasionally three days of midwinter. 63 continuous
periods of 30 days are 1,890 days and correspond
to 64 moons or lunations or synodic months;
mistake less than one minute per lunation,
or half a day in a lifetime. (Count 30 29 30 29 30 ...
days for 1 2 3 4 5 ... lunations. 15 and 17 lunations
yield 443 and 502 days respectively, together 945
days for 32 lunations, doubled 1,890 days for 64
lunations.) The eastern of the larger poles in the
center of the circle represented the female triad
of PIR GID and BIR GID and BRI GID, and the
western of the larger poles the bull man, the male
triad of AAR RAA NOS and GIS BAL CA MmOS and
AD DA MAN, as explained in the previous message.

The year was organized as follows (the late
appearance of the fertility giver BRI GID explained
by the special climate, melting snow making the
rivers rise in late summer, rain arriving in late fall
and early winter):

3 months or 90 days of PIR GID
(spring equinox)
3 months or 90 days of AD DA MAN

day of AD DA MAN
day of turtle
day of AAR RAA NOS

3 months or 90 days of AAR RAA NOS
(fall equinox)
3 months or 90 days of BRI GID

day of BRI GID looking back on the old year
occasional day of the eagle
day of PIR GID looking forward to the new year,
her day New Year's Eve celebrated with fire
arrows shot into the night sky by her fire archers
PIR RYT along the PIR RYT Firat Euphrates,
and along the DIG LIC Dicle Tigris, named for
the fire arrows, 'fingers of light and luck' DIG LIC

Nevali Cori (Chori) was a settlement on a ford
of the Euphrates, northwest of the Göbekli Tepe,
a ford passed by game, ideal hunting area for
the dwellers of that region. Their settlement
comprised a sanctuary, the older Terrazzo
Building I, replaced by the younger Terrazzo
Building II. The older temple was a rectangle
of 13 pillars around a pair of larger pillars in
the center, suggesting a variant of the above
calendar: basic year 13 short months of 28 days,
364 days, plus 1 day and occasionally 2 days.
The younger temple returned to the Göbekli Tepe
model of the year, a rectangle of 12 pillars around
a central pair of larger pillars. A carved limestone
cup from Nevali Cori showing three dancers,
the middle one a turtle, would have celebrated
the midsummer festival, and the pole of the
Janus women, one looking backward the other
forward, in between an eagle, would have
celebrated the midwinter festival of two days
(Janus women) and occasionally three days
(Janus women and eagle between them).

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2013-02-07 17:11:00 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
(the Göbekli Tepe calendar explained below
had numerical parallels in the hummingbird
calendar of the Salish and jaguar calendar
of Kuntur Wasi in Peru, while the observatory
of a circle of a dozen poles would have worked
for the geographical latitude of the Colorado
Plateau in the north and the ones of Santiago
de Chile and Buenos Aires in the south

in the south of what? You do realize, I hope, that Santiago and Buenos
Aires are about on the 34th parallel, i.e. about as far south as Beirut
is north? From the vantage point of Zurich would you think of Beirut as
being in the north? Anyway, there is a great deal of both countries to
the south of the 34th parallel, and the Mapuche extended more south
than north of the cities you mention (and still do, in Chile, though
they were largely exterminated in Argentina in the 19th century). Che
Guevara's nickname has a nice Magdalenian look about it, so you might
want to think of a Magdalenian derivation of CHE, and then see if it
bears any relation to what "che" actually means in Mapudungún.

--
athel

Arnaud F.

2013-02-07 18:03:28 UTC

***

Kindof feeling this is way, way, way, way too complicated for our Gaggithaler Möngi, especially in comparison to the sinking contents of his "contributions".

A.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-08 08:53:21 UTC

My first longtime online stalker Marie Jean Faucounau
alias grapheus, Frenchman and Phaistos Disc decipherer,
could not shed light on his Proto-Ionians, and punished me
for his failure. My third online stalker Arnaud Fournet alias
yangg, Frenchman and Phaistos Disc decipherer, can't
shed light on his Phaisto-Hurrians, and punishes me
for his failure. How many more Frenchmen and Phaistos
Disc decipherers are out there, waiting to stalk me and
blame me for their blind windows on the past?

---

Magdalenian can shed light on the past, here my reading
of a stone tablet from Jerf el-Ahmar, tomorrow the one
of the second stone tablet that will shed light on early
farming, in a similar way as practized in the Andes.

ant from Jerf el-Ahmar

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

Jerf el-Ahmar in northern Syria, close to the
Anatolian border, on a tributary of the Euphrates,
not far from the mighty river, was a prepottery
Neolithic A settlement, from the time of the
Göbekli Tepe, belonging to the wider area of
the Göbekli Tepe, 10th millennium BC. From
Jerf el-Ahmar we have two most fascinating
stone tablets. One shall be interpreted today,
the other tomorrow.

On one side of the ant tablet appear over thirty
U and V shaped fur or leather bags filled with
dots, clay, earth, carried up a slope to the hill
of the Göbekli Tepe, represented as mound
inside the wide U shape in the top row,
BIR LAD, the world as hill LAD in the cosmic
fur of the fur giver BIR GID. An alternative
and complimentary reading is MUC DAL,
the primeval hill as origin of the world held by
imaginary wide bull horns, the eastern horn
representing the eastern mountains from where
moon and sun rise, and the western horn the
western mountains where they set, an arc of
four dots above the hill indicating their heavenly
trajectories, also a year of four seasons. The earth
layer covering the large limestone hill is up to five
meters deep, which translates to some two million
fillings of fur or leather bags. This required many
helpers. Their walking up and down the slope
might well have evoked a procession of ants.

Ants are known for carrying all sorts of organic
materials, for example stalks. A giant ant is seen
on the other side of the stone tablet, erecting a pole.
Several other poles are already standing, under
a pair of circles, moon and sun, eyes of the sky god
watching over the sanctuary on the hill, sending
a flash of lightning zig-zagging down from the sky
toward the earth, the arrow head pointing toward
the arc of four dots above the body of the ant,
promising rain, not only in the rain season, early
winter, but also in between the year, in all four
seasons - apparently the sky god is pleased with
the sanctuary under construction and will reward
its building with rain.

While we have no descriptions and pictures of how
the much younger pyramids of Egypt were built,
we have an extraordinary document of how the earth
mound on the Göbekli Tepe and the first observatory
and sanctuary of poles on one of the four tops of
the large hill were built, some 12,000 years ago.

The other stone tablet from Jerf el-Ahmar is equally
amazing when read and interpreted in the light of
Magdalenian.

Next time: Adam as early farmer
Then: fable of Gilgamesh and Enkidu

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-09 08:44:28 UTC

Adam as early farmer

http://www.seshat.ch/home/gt01.GIF
http://www.seshat.ch/home/tablets.GIF

Now for the other stone tablet from Jerf el-Ahmar.
One side shows rituals of invoking rain in the ways
explained in previous messages, the other side
a grid of long horizontal and short vertical lines,
below an undulating snake gliding from the left
to the right side. Snakes, by far the most frequent
symbol on the Göbekli Tepe, are related to water.
Snakes heading skyward symbolize prayers for
rain, and the smoke of sacrificial fires imploring rain.
Snakes heading downward symbolize falling rain
rewarding the prayers and sacrificial fires, filling
water holes and river beds. Undulating snakes
moving more or less in horizontal direction
symbolize flowing water. The snake ideogram
on the stone tablet from Jerf el-Ahmar indicates
that the lines of the grid are ditches filled with
rather slow moving water confining patches
in an early system of planting that is known from
the Andes and the shore of Lake Titicaca, revived
experimentally near the ruins of Tiahuanaco,
yielding fabulous harvests without fertilizer and
herbicid, algae do the job, moreover the slowly
moving water keeps the soil moist and the plants
warm by night and in a frost.

AD DA MAN created rivers that flow toward AD
the sea while coming from DA hills and mountains,
and made them with his right hand MAN. The early
farmers dug water channels and ditches that made
the water flow toward one place while coming from
another place, and did their work with their hands
and simple digging tools, part of a stag antler,
in the region of the Göbekli Tepe perhaps with
a bull horn, as indicated by the horns turned upside
down of the bucranium on the neck of the male
central pillar of temple D, ideogram of the male triad
as bull man.

Magdalenian TOM named a stone knive. Inverse MOT
named the repeated forward and backward movement
of arm and hand and knive in cutting. TIM as lateral
association to TOM could have named a digging tool,
and inverse MIT could have named the movements
of digging, accounting for Old English aemette Middle
English am(e)te em(e)te New English ant, as for
Albanian mih '(he) digs' naming the ant. Remember
the giant ant as builder on the previous stone tablet
from Jerf el-Ahmar, placing a pole into a post hole
dug into the ground. TIM naming the digging tool
could then also have named the handler of the tool

TIM a TIM a TaM a daM

Adam as digger of irrigation channels and water
ditches, covered in clay - Adam the earth man
overforming Adam the handler of digging tools
overforming Adam as follower of AD DA MAN
who had created the rivers and was the patron
of the early farmers.

Next time: fable of Gilgamesh and Enkidu

Yusuf B Gursey

2013-02-09 10:30:36 UTC

On Feb 9, 3:44 am, Franz Gnaedinger <***@bluemail.ch> wrote:

nothing to do with Salish!

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Adam as early farmer
http://www.seshat.ch/home/gt01.GIF
http://www.seshat.ch/home/tablets.GIF
Now for the other stone tablet from Jerf el-Ahmar.
One side shows rituals of invoking rain in the ways
explained in previous messages, the other side
a grid of long horizontal and short vertical lines,
below an undulating snake gliding from the left
to the right side. Snakes, by far the most frequent
symbol on the Göbekli Tepe, are related to water.
Snakes heading skyward symbolize prayers for
rain, and the smoke of sacrificial fires imploring rain.
Snakes heading downward symbolize falling rain
rewarding the prayers and sacrificial fires, filling
water holes and river beds. Undulating snakes
moving more or less in horizontal direction
symbolize flowing water. The snake ideogram
on the stone tablet from Jerf el-Ahmar indicates
that the lines of the grid are ditches filled with
rather slow moving water confining patches
in an early system of planting that is known from
the Andes and the shore of Lake Titicaca, revived
experimentally near the ruins of Tiahuanaco,
yielding fabulous harvests without fertilizer and
herbicid, algae do the job, moreover the slowly
moving water keeps the soil moist and the plants
warm by night and in a frost.
AD DA MAN created rivers that flow toward AD
the sea while coming from DA hills and mountains,
and made them with his right hand MAN. The early
farmers dug water channels and ditches that made
the water flow toward one place while coming from
another place, and did their work with their hands
and simple digging tools, part of a stag antler,
in the region of the Göbekli Tepe perhaps with
a bull horn, as indicated by the horns turned upside
down of the bucranium on the neck of the male
central pillar of temple D, ideogram of the male triad
as bull man.
Magdalenian TOM named a stone knive. Inverse MOT
named the repeated forward and backward movement
of arm and hand and knive in cutting. TIM as lateral
association to TOM could have named a digging tool,
and inverse MIT could have named the movements
of digging, accounting for Old English aemette Middle
English am(e)te em(e)te New English ant, as for
Albanian mih '(he) digs' naming the ant. Remember
the giant ant as builder on the previous stone tablet
from Jerf el-Ahmar, placing a pole into a post hole
dug into the ground. TIM naming the digging tool
could then also have named the handler of the tool
TIM a TIM a TaM a daM
Adam as digger of irrigation channels and water
ditches, covered in clay - Adam the earth man
overforming Adam the handler of digging tools
overforming Adam as follower of AD DA MAN
who had created the rivers and was the patron
of the early farmers.
Next time: fable of Gilgamesh and Enkidu

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2013-02-09 10:37:58 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
nothing to do with Salish!

Unlike his previous stuff?

--
athel

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-10 09:29:34 UTC

(if Gilgamesh and Enkidu had equivalents in the
Americas, the former would have been an early
warrior king building strongholds, and the latter
a farmer king building irrigation systems)

fable of Gilgamesh and Enkidu

AC CA, earth AC and sky CA, had many meanings.
It named the ring of the primeval world, ring AC and
hollow CA, shaped by the fertility giver BRI GID
who planted the seeds of life. In the hollow appeared
the head of AAR RAA NOS, he of air AAR and light
RAA with a mind NOS. He asked for more space.
GIS BAL CA MmOS, gesture GIS hot BAL sky CA
offspring MmOS, gesturing hotheaded heavenly
offspring, broke the ring in two halves and flattened
them into the lower half of the earth AC and upper
half of the sky CA, given as the horizontal bars of
a lying H while the slim vertical bar symbolized
the exchanges between earth and sky, AC and CA,
especially prayers for rain and the smoke of sacrificial
fires imploring rain, and falling rain rewarding the
prayers and sacrificial fires, filling water holes and
river beds. The rivers were created by AD DA MAN
who made them flow toward AD the sea while coming
from DA the hills and mountains, and created them
with his right hand MAN. The Göbekli Tepe had been
called AC CA, where earth AC and sky CA are meeting,
also DhAG, abode of the able ones DhAG.

The fertility giver BRI GID had planted the seeds of life.
She maintained life by mediating the exchanges between
earth AC and sky CA. Her byname was AC CA Hebrew
Hawwa 'mother of all life' English Eve. AC CA also named
the Indo-European earth goddess akka (Julius Pokorny)
while inverse CA AC named the Greek earth goddess
Gaia. AC CA Hawwa Eve's husband AD DA MAN Adam
had the byname AC CA DhAG, able one DhAG from the
hill where earth AC and sky CA are meeting, and was
the patron of the early farmers, hard working strong men
digging irrigation channels and water ditches confining
the early planting patches.

12,000 years ago the wide region of the Göbekli Tepe
was a paradise of lush meadows and groves and game
galore. Then the local climate changed. It got dry and
drier. A severe drought made the plants wither and
parched the fields, whereupon a hard rain falling for
forty days and forty nights swept away the soil,
drowning people and cattle. NOS AAR RAA Noah,
he who obeys the mind NOS of the one of air AAR
and light RAA, followed the river of the fire archers
PIR RYT Firat Euphrates upward into Armenia, land
of the AAR RAA MAN, they who carry out the will
of the one of air AAR and light RAA with their right
hand MAN, and settled north of the AAR RAA RYT
Mount Ararat, abode of the one of air AAR and light
RAA as (sun) archer RYT. Another Noah followed
the Euphrates downward, to southern Mesopotamia,
where GIS BAL CA MmOS GISh.BIL.GA.MISh
Gilgamesh founded Uruk of the cattle enclosure,
Erech, ark under the protection of AAR RAA CA,
he of air AAR and light RAA in the sky CA, while
AD DA MAN in the form of AC CA DHAG founded
AC CA DhAG Accad Akkad and was worshipped
as AC CA DhAG En-ki-du(g) Enkidu, made of earth,
his body the one of a bull. Gilgamesh and Enkidu
were rivals, but learned how to cooperate. Their origin
DhAG was remembred as the sacred Du-ku mountain
of Sumerian mythology (identified with the Göbekli
Tepe by Klaus Schmidt, able excavator of the
archaeological sensation of my lifetime).

Coming next: Eve and Adam

Yusuf B Gursey

2013-02-10 09:31:41 UTC

On Feb 10, 4:29 am, Franz Gnaedinger <***@bluemail.ch> wrote:

isn't one thread enough!!!

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
(if Gilgamesh and Enkidu had equivalents in the
Americas, the former would have been an early
warrior king building strongholds, and the latter
a farmer king building irrigation systems)
fable of Gilgamesh and Enkidu
AC CA, earth AC and sky CA, had many meanings.
It named the ring of the primeval world, ring AC and
hollow CA, shaped by the fertility giver BRI GID
who planted the seeds of life. In the hollow appeared
the head of AAR RAA NOS, he of air AAR and light
RAA with a mind NOS. He asked for more space.
GIS BAL CA MmOS, gesture GIS hot BAL sky CA
offspring MmOS, gesturing hotheaded heavenly
offspring, broke the ring in two halves and flattened
them into the lower half of the earth AC and upper
half of the sky CA, given as the horizontal bars of
a lying H while the slim vertical bar symbolized
the exchanges between earth and sky, AC and CA,
especially prayers for rain and the smoke of sacrificial
fires imploring rain, and falling rain rewarding the
prayers and sacrificial fires, filling water holes and
river beds. The rivers were created by AD DA MAN
who made them flow toward AD the sea while coming
from DA the hills and mountains, and created them
with his right hand MAN. The Göbekli Tepe had been
called AC CA, where earth AC and sky CA are meeting,
also DhAG, abode of the able ones DhAG.
The fertility giver BRI GID had planted the seeds of life.
She maintained life by mediating the exchanges between
earth AC and sky CA. Her byname was AC CA Hebrew
Hawwa 'mother of all life' English Eve. AC CA also named
the Indo-European earth goddess akka (Julius Pokorny)
while inverse CA AC named the Greek earth goddess
Gaia. AC CA Hawwa Eve's husband AD DA MAN Adam
had the byname AC CA DhAG, able one DhAG from the
hill where earth AC and sky CA are meeting, and was
the patron of the early farmers, hard working strong men
digging irrigation channels and water ditches confining
the early planting patches.
12,000 years ago the wide region of the Göbekli Tepe
was a paradise of lush meadows and groves and game
galore. Then the local climate changed. It got dry and
drier. A severe drought made the plants wither and
parched the fields, whereupon a hard rain falling for
forty days and forty nights swept away the soil,
drowning people and cattle. NOS AAR RAA Noah,
he who obeys the mind NOS of the one of air AAR
and light RAA, followed the river of the fire archers
PIR RYT Firat Euphrates upward into Armenia, land
of the AAR RAA MAN, they who carry out the will
of the one of air AAR and light RAA with their right
hand MAN, and settled north of the AAR RAA RYT
Mount Ararat, abode of the one of air AAR and light
RAA as (sun) archer RYT. Another Noah followed
the Euphrates downward, to southern Mesopotamia,
where GIS BAL CA MmOS GISh.BIL.GA.MISh
Gilgamesh founded Uruk of the cattle enclosure,
Erech, ark under the protection of AAR RAA CA,
he of air AAR and light RAA in the sky CA, while
AD DA MAN in the form of AC CA DHAG founded
AC CA DhAG Accad Akkad and was worshipped
as AC CA DhAG En-ki-du(g) Enkidu, made of earth,
his body the one of a bull. Gilgamesh and Enkidu
were rivals, but learned how to cooperate. Their origin
DhAG was remembred as the sacred Du-ku mountain
of Sumerian mythology (identified with the Göbekli
Tepe by Klaus Schmidt, able excavator of the
archaeological sensation of my lifetime).
Coming next: Eve and Adam

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2013-02-10 11:57:52 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
isn't one thread enough!!!

Isn't one thread one too many?

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
(if Gilgamesh and Enkidu had equivalents in the
[ … ]
archaeological sensation of my lifetime).
Coming next: Eve and Adam

--
athel

pauljk

2013-02-10 13:10:37 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
isn't one thread enough!!!

Isn't one thread one too many?

Yes! One thread is already gazillion repetitions too many!

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
(if Gilgamesh and Enkidu had equivalents in the
[ … ]
archaeological sensation of my lifetime).
Coming next: Eve and Adam

--
athel

Yusuf B Gursey

2013-02-10 14:05:36 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
isn't one thread enough!!!

Isn't one thread one too many?

one could legitimately argue spam with what Franz is doing, not just
that he is a kook.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
(if Gilgamesh and Enkidu had equivalents in the
[ … ]
archaeological sensation of my lifetime).
Coming next: Eve and Adam

--
athel

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-11 08:19:26 UTC

(what I say below has paralleles in the Americas,
and is justified here in the sense of comparative
cultural studies)

Eve and Adam, a lesson for our time

Agriculture was invented several times in various
parts of the globe. In 1990 I was informed about
40,000 years old grains of breeded grass in the
Kalahari, and a 23,000 years old irrigation system
in the Chad (but could never verify those claims).
A series of BBC documentaries on the elements
as shaping factors of civilization presented a stone
mortar and grinding pebble from a 30,000 years old
site in Australia as evidence that agriculture was
intented there but given up because the wind blew
away the thin layer of fertile soil. All conditions for
the invention of agriculture were right 12,000 years
ago in the region of the Göbekli Tepe. 10,000 years
old einkorn was found at the base of the Karacadag
(for the top of which I postulate remains of a sanctuary
in honor of the sky god AAR RAA NOS).

Relying on my previous messages I can make it short.
BRI GID whose other name was AC CA Hawwa Eve
and AD DA MAN Adam lived in the garden AD DA Eden,
land of the big rivers that flow toward AD the Persian
Gulf while coming from DA the hills and mountains of
eastern Anatolia and western Persia, Mesopotamia.

We see Adam and Eve on two seal impressions from
Sumer, standing among a variety of animals including
a serpent in form of a stairway ascending from the
earth AC to the sky CA, and seated under a stylyzed
date palm tree, between them the serpent standing on
the earth AC and reaching the sky CA, together AC CA
which named BRI GID in the alternative form of AC CA
Hawwa Eve, and AD DA MAN Adam in the alternative
form of AC CA DhAG En-ki-du(g) Enkidu. The forbidden
tree of wisdom in the Bible was a date palm tree,
and here is how the snake seduced not only Eve
(in the title of my message placed first, because,
I believe, agriculture was invented by priestesses of
BRI GID whose alternative name was AC CA Hawwa
Eve), blamed alone in the Bible, but also Adam:
Look at me, I reach the sky, drink from the clouds
and fill the river beds with water. Cultivate the date
palm tree, plant those trees from horizon to horizon,
I will supply you with all the water you need for that
purpose ... And so they did, cultivated the date palm
tree and planted them in ever larger monocultures
that required a lot of water, enormous quantities of water
provided by ever larger irrigation systems. We know from
the example of early China that irrigation triggered all
kinds of innovations and formed society. This also
happened in Mesopotamia. However, the intensive
irrigation of date palm tree monocultures deposited
ever more salt on the once fertile ground, the palms
yielded smaller and smaller harvests, eventually
the plantations were abandoned, the water channels
no longer maintained, they went dry, the snake ate dust,
as it were. Adam and Eve lost their former paradise,
people left Sumer, among them ABA BRA Abram Abraham,
we who carries out the will of the (heavenly) father ABA
with his right arm BRA, himself the father of the Jews
who worshipped ShA CA DhAG CA Jahwe, ruler ShA
in the sky CA, able one DhAG in the sky CA, and of
the AAR RAA BRA Arabs, they who carry out the will of
the one of air AAR and light RAA with their right arm BRA.

And what happens today? We are putting at risk
the paradise of our planet, in several ways, also with
monocultures, large monocultures dwarfing the ones
of ancient Mesopotamia, garden of Eden in the Bible.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-11 08:25:51 UTC

Athel Cornish-Bowden got a pretty name - and pretty
much nothing to say about language or anything else,
recently he proved that he knows not even the basics
of astronomy. He hangs around in sci.lang drilling
holes in the soles of my shoes, hoping my socks
will soak up rain and make me feel uncomfortable
so that I end my Magdalenian experiment, not
understanding that I find confirmation in the obvious
lack of scientific / linguistic arguments against my
alternative approach to early language. The more
hollow jokes and verdicts dropped from above and
meta-arguments and invectives and ad hominems
the more obvious becomes the lack of scientific
and linguistic arguments, and the more confirmed
I feel in my alternative approach to the Ice Age
language of Eurasia.

Arnaud F.

2013-02-11 09:02:12 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Athel Cornish-Bowden got a pretty name - and pretty
much nothing to say about language or anything else,
recently he proved that he knows not even the basics
of astronomy. He hangs around in sci.lang drilling
holes in the soles of my shoes, hoping my socks
will soak up rain and make me feel uncomfortable
so that I end my Magdalenian experiment, not
understanding that I find confirmation in the obvious
lack of scientific / linguistic arguments against my
alternative approach to early language. The more
hollow jokes and verdicts dropped from above and
meta-arguments and invectives and ad hominems
the more obvious becomes the lack of scientific
and linguistic arguments, and the more confirmed
I feel in my alternative approach to the Ice Age
language of Eurasia.

***

And you think such a huge continental area spoke only one language??

clown...

A.

Peter T. Daniels

2013-02-11 13:33:27 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
the more confirmed
I feel in my alternative approach to the Ice Age
language of Eurasia.

And you think such a huge continental area spoke only one language??

We tried that one years ago.

Next try to get him to put a time-frame on it.

Arnaud F.

2013-02-11 13:45:27 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
the more confirmed
I feel in my alternative approach to the Ice Age
language of Eurasia.

And you think such a huge continental area spoke only one language??

We tried that one years ago.

***

one years ?

And your own bigoted idiot-lectal form of English is the acme of learned intelligence?

A.
***

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Next try to get him to put a time-frame on it.

Peter T. Daniels

2013-02-11 16:15:03 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
the more confirmed
I feel in my alternative approach to the Ice Age
language of Eurasia.

And you think such a huge continental area spoke only one language??

We tried that one years ago.

one years ?
And your own bigoted idiot-lectal form of English is the acme of learned intelligence?

How stupid can you be?

If I had intended to specify the time ago, it would have been "We
tried that a year ago."

To use a marked construction, which because it is more German than
English may be easier for you to grasp,

That one, we tried years ago.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-12 13:21:40 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
We tried that one years ago.
Next try to get him to put a time-frame on it.

Here is my answer to the question how Magdalenian
could have been spoken in all of Eurasia, without
splitting up in several different languages, and how
lanaguage diversification in younger times, as told
in the wise book of the Bible

from one to many languages, Babylon, tower of Babel,
Daniel in the lion's den

Magdalenian society was held together by wandering
tribes making four hundred kilometers a year,
by wandering shamans and shamanesses (in cave
art stags and hinds), wandering arch shamans
and arch shamanesses (megaceroi), and wandering
artists (a special class of shamans and probably
also shamanesses). Magdalenian as lingua franca
held together various local dialects by means of
rock paintings along the wandering routes (fragments
of painted rock from the cliffs above were excavated
in the valley of the Vézère, preserved in the ground
while the openair paintings are long gone) and mobile
art (some of the objects survive, many many more
are lost) combined with verbal formulae.

Picture a relief of a bull on a piece of bone representing
the Late Magdalenian sky god and supreme weather
god, named by a double formula

ShA PAD TYR AS CA
DhAG PAD TYR AS CA

ruler ShA activity of feet PAD to overcome in the
double sense of rule and give TYR upward AS sky CA
- the ruler ShA goes ahead and leads the way PAD
and overcomes in the double sense orf rule and give
TYR up above AS in the sky CA ...

This double formula would have contained six important
Magdalenian words, consider also the inverses and
permutations and comparative forms and you have in all
thirty-two Magdalenian words out of a word treasure of
some more than four hundred words. Formulae of that
kind were easily memorized, and prevented local dialects
from becoming separate languages.

Agriculture invented 12,000 years ago in the region
of the Göbekli Tepe, a sedentary life, city building,
metalurgy beginning with copper in Asia Minor
10,000 years ago, and rapidly increasing populations
had their effect on language development: dialects
were no longer kept together by shamanic formulae,
drifted apart and became languages of their own,
which can be exemplified in the case of the above
double formula that named a variety of younger gods,
among them ShA PAD TYR Jupitter Jupiter Jovis Giove
DhAG PAD TYR Dis pater, TYR Sseyr Sseus Zeus,
TYR Syr- Tir (sun archer of Bronze Age Armenia,
Norse god of justice) also Thor, ShA CA DhAG CA
Jahwe, storm god and rider of clouds from Mount Seir
in the Negev, ruler ShA in the sky CA, able one DhAG
in the sky CA ... In India we have ShA CA Shiva and
TYR CA Durga, an emanation of his wife.

The Bible tells about language diversification in the
story of the tower of Bable, Etemenanki, ziqqurat
of Babylon (former ziqqurat, by now just a hole
in the ground, all bricks used for other buildings),
the most famous of all ziqqurats, consecrated
to the local god Marduk or Merodak.

AD DA MAN AC CA et e MeN An ki

The sacred precinct would have been named for
AD DA MAN Adam and AC CA Hawwa Eve.

The Akkadian name Babylon 'Gate of the Gods'
would have overformed an older meaning, as was
often the case

ABA LEI ABy LEon b ABy Leon b ABy Lon

father ABA attacking lion ) EI or LEI, Babylon
as lion's den ruled by the king as father lion,
which casts new light on the Biblical story of
Daniel in the lion's den.

AMA REO DhAG MA R DhAG MA R Duk

AMA REO DhAG Me RO DAk

The local god Marduk or Merodak would have
been the able DhAG son of mother AMA, namely
the river REO, hence the god was an equivalent
of TYR Sseyr Sseus Zeus, the son of REO Rheia
Rhea, naming for example the Rha Volga, the
Rhenus Rhine and Rhodanus Rhone - Rhine
and Rhone springing nearby each other in the
Swiss Alps, while the formula ShA PAD TYR
AS CA is preserved in a polished form in the
name of a small village on a bend of the river
Ticino in southern Switzerland, Giubiasco,
where the lovely Italian landscape of Ascona
and Locarno goes over into the grim scenery
of the Swiss Alps, where tradesmen heading
for the north implored the sky god for good
weather, while those who safely traversed
the mountain barrier thanked for the good
weather and the luck they had.

Arnaud F.

2013-02-12 14:05:26 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Magdalenian society was held together by wandering
tribes making four hundred kilometers a year,

***

So it was actually split in wandering tribes.

A.
***

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
by wandering shamans and shamanesses (in cave
art stags and hinds), wandering arch shamans
and arch shamanesses (megaceroi), and wandering
artists (a special class of shamans and probably
also shamanesses).

***

So hysterical cheaters of extaxis and idle artists prevented that language from splitting in ten thousand dialects?

A.
***

Magdalenian as lingua franca

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
held together various local dialects by means of
rock paintings along the wandering routes (fragments
of painted rock from the cliffs above were excavated
in the valley of the Vézère, preserved in the ground
while the openair paintings are long gone) and mobile
art (some of the objects survive, many many more
are lost) combined with verbal formulae.

***

Writing systems do not block linguistic change,
even less so, with analphets.

A.
***

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-13 08:21:15 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Next try to get him to put a time-frame on it.

I always gave dates, here compiled in a list.

time frame of Homo sapiens sapiens in the north

100 000 BP Homo sapiens sapiens leaves Africa
75 000 BP camps in Arabia
60 000 BP Arun Valley, Nepal ?
43 000 BP enters Danube Valley
41 000 BP reaches Altamira
33 000 BP Altai, dog-like animal, Denisovans
32 000 BP Chauvet; dog from a Belgian cave
25 000 BP Pech Merle; Dolni Vestonice, baked clay figurine)
18 000 BP Lascaux
17 000 BP Angles-sur-l'Anglin
15 000 BP Malta near Irkutsk on Lake Baikal
13 000 BP Siberians leave Altai for Americas
12 000 BP earth mound of Göbekli Tepe
11 600 BP stone pillar temples A B C D on Göbekli Tepe
10 000 BP einkorn from the base of the Karacadag, copper
9 500 BP Göbekli Tepe temples filled with rubble and abandoned
6 000 BP first IE homeland on banks of Amu Darya, bronze
8 BP Magdalenian revival in sci.lang on Usenet, Wild Wild West
of the World Wide Web

Magdalenian is the name of an archaeological epoch, 18 000
till 12 000 BP, covering Eurasia from the Franco-Cantabrian
space in the west to Lake Baikal in the east, and my name
for the fully developed language of the Ice Age.

Meanwhile I am inclined to locate the origin of Magdalenian
in the Arun Valley, Nepal, where people coming from the
south encountered the climate of the north, a clash triggering
innovations. We know that the early tribes who ventured along
the Danube into Europe came from India. They reached
Altamira 41,000 years ago, which we know from the recently
dated oldest element in cave art identified so far, a red dot
in the Altamira cave, in my interpretation meaning SAI for
life, existence, comparative form of DAI for a protected area,
given as tectiform signs (signes tectiformes, Michel Lorblanchet).
The Chauvet cave was painted between 32,000 and 28,000
years ago, when a rock fell down and blocked the entrance.
A large sign in the Brunel chamber, big red dots applied with
the palm, a domino five plus a dot in elevated position,
can be read in combination with the Venus and the bull
drawn on a stalactite in the rear hall of Chauvet. The domino
five was identified with my PAS for everywhere (in a plain),
here, south and north of me, east and west of me, by one
poster Holly in the spring of 2006, while the additional dot
in elevated position can be read as CA for sky: May the
bull man, supreme leader of the Lower Rhone Valley,
be born again in the sky, in the region of the Summer
Triangle Deneb Vega Atair, and may he roam the heavens
in his next life as he roamed the sky in this life - may he get
everywhere PAS in the sky CA ... A similar but more elaborate
inscription is found in the cave Pech Merle. Agriculture was
invented in the region of the Göbekli Tepe, beginnings
probably 12,000 years ago, fields of einkorn at the base
of the Karacadag 10,000 years ago. Copper was mined
as early as 10,000 years ago in Jordania and Turkey.
Combined mines of copper and tin are found in the Alai
Mountains. I locate the first Indo-European homeland
on the banks of the Amu Darya, 6,000 years ago, center
Termez - Kunduz - Kurgan T'upe. Bronze bits made it
possible to tame horses, in the beginning small pony
like horses used for carrying loads along the rivers,
up on hills and mountain passes. Their name would
have been AS PAC, upward AS horse PAC, surviving
in Avestan aspa 'horse' and Sanskrit asva 'horse'
while emphatic PAC AS AS Pegasos Pegasus,
horse up up, would have personified the hot summer
wind Afghanetz blowing from the Aral Sea along the
Amu Darya up to the Hindukush as a winged horse.
The second IE homeland would have been the Uralic
steppes east of the Rha Volga, and the third IE homeland
would have been the Pontic steppes west of the Rha,
ancient name of the Volga, from REO meaning river.
The horse of the plains was called with a phonetically
similar but semantically different compound, AC PAS
- riding this animal you can get everywhere PAS on
earth AC ... This compound is present in *h1ekwos
Greek hippos Latin equus, also in the name of the
Gallo-Roman horse goddess Epona whose main
¨sanctuary was Alesia at the base of Mont Réa near
a spring of the river Seine.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-14 09:41:39 UTC

mobile art as Magdalenian dictionary

Word formulae accompanying and invisibly enveloping
mobile art of the Ice Age would have served as dictionary,
stabilizing the lingua franca of Eurasia, preventing dialects
from shifting into languages of their own.

DAI meaning protecting area was given as tectiform sign
in cave art, as a rectangle or a similar form, while the
comparative from SAI meaning life, existence, was given
as dots, groups and lines and fields of dots, frequent
in cave art, often combined with tectiform signs, for
example in the cave of Castillo, Cantabria. A red dot in
the Altamira cave was recently dated to the surprisingly
high age of some 41,000 years. Red dots on walls of
Neolithic houses in Switzerland wished the inhabitants
good health, a long life, and many children. Trefoils
in the art of the Indus Valley implored the same, for
example the trefoils on the gown of the priest king,
and the red trefoils covering a lingam stand.

Cup marks were elaborate dots. Groups of three cup
marks arranged as triangles can be seen in caves of
the Ile-de-France. A triangular pebble found in a grave
at Urpingen has a cup mark in each corner. A triangle
of cup marks on a wall of the cave Roche du Diable
(Devil's Rock, pagan sanctuaries were often ascribed
to the devil) is framed by a standing rectangle carved
in the wall, two more carved lines connect the upper
cup marks with the lower one and indicate the V of
a vulva, also vulvae being frequent symbols in cave art.
The lower cup mark would then symbolize the fertility
giver BRI GID, and the upper cup marks her sisters
the fur giver BIR GID and the fire giver PIR GID,
together the female triad, known as the powerful
Celtic triple goddess Brigid. Already we have several
words and names: DAI for the rectangle, SAI for life,
BRI GID and BIR GID and PIR GID for the female triad.

Now picture the sign on the cave wall as bone amulet
worn by a woman, imploring children from BRI GID,
an easy birth by BIR GID (BIR means fur, especially
the fur on which a newborn was placed), and protection
from PIR GID (fires protected caves and abris and camps).

The torch of PIR GID was present in Algol of PIR SAI
Perseus in the night sky. The constellation of BIR GID,
alter ego of the Divine Hind Woman who called life into
existence, was ORE EON Orion, she on the beautiful
ORE bank or shore EON of the heavenly river or lake
CA LAK Galaxy (Milky Way). And BRI GID was present
in the Summer Triangle Deneb Vega Atair, providing
a second life for a worthy soul in the beyond. (Michael
Janda, relying on his thorough studies of the Rig Veda,
postulates a Stone Age belief in a second life in the
region of the Milky Way.) So the above amulet could also
have been placed in a grave, wishing that the soul of
the person who passed away may be born again in
the sky, in the region of the Summer Triangle, another
meaning of the three cup marks in form of a longish
triangle. Cave walls and ceilings were seen as the sky,
so red dots on cave walls could also have represented
a soul being born again and given new life SAI in the
sky CA, together SAI CA, wherefrom, perhaps, p SAI CA
and Greek psychae 'soul' ?

All the wishes going along with the amulet would have
been articulated in standing Magdalenian formulae,
invisibly enveloping the artefact. Metaphorically speaking
the word formulae would have been flesh and blood
to the bone of the amulet.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-15 09:16:08 UTC

(early garden sanctuaries in the Americas, analoguous
to the garden sanctuaries described below, would have
been consecrated to deities of maize instead of cereals
and olives)

covered in writing

Magdalenian word formulae invisibly enveloping mobile
art of the Ice Age would have been succeeded by
decorative inscriptions covering Neolithic figurines
and other clay objects of the Balkans, Old Europe in
the sense of Marija Gimbutas. The (hypothetical) name
of the bird goddess Ki Ri Ke was given as cross line
angle, a cross for Ki, a line for Ri, an angle for Ke,
allowing endless variations of decorative patterns
invoking the bird woman who became Homer's Kirkae
Circe of the lovely tresses, weaving the fabric of life
in her cave, singing beautifully, revealing the nature
of people by transforming them into telling animals,
while she herself could appear as a howering owl
(one of the bird guises of Athene, little owlet Athena
noctua, her other bird guise the sea eagle).

In the shrine of the bird goddess at Sabatinovka,
Southern Bug Valley, Moldavia, Early Cucuteni,
seventy square meters enclosed in wattle-and-daub
walls, among many figurines of the voluptous bird
woman, stood a clay oven. The clay loaf from Banijca,
Early Vinca (Vincha), is covered in signs around a
rectangular spiral, while among the decorative patterns
covering the clay loaf from Vrsac (Vrshac), 7 000 BP,
are round spirals, phonetical value of the spiral
according to my pre-Magdalenian reconstruction
ZO or ZAEO for life, going along with Magdalenian
SAI for life, existence.

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

The Phaistos Disc, a pair of clay discs baked together,
was deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth in February 1981.
In the center of the Elaia disc appears a clay oven
resembling the one in the shrine of the bird goddess
at Sabatinovka, next to her a wave, sign of Poseidon,
originally the god of rivers. The oven stands for
Demeter Elaia in the local form of Black Demeter
Melaina, a mare, and Poseidon in the guise of a stallion,
parents of Despoina 'Mistress' whose secret name was
Nyx 'Night'. The spiralling text on the Elaia disc instructs
a visitor of Elaia's grove at Phigalia as to how to obtain
the oracle of Nyx:

Enter Elaia's grove, kindle peeled wood,
beat the ground around the smole of the fire,
and neigh suddenly like a pair of horses:
Aio ae! hyauax! Shadowy one, come,
o noble late Night, always born anwew
by the goddess!

Nyx was a powerful goddess feared by all gods,
even Zeus. Her name derives from NYG for night,
inverse of GYN for woman. She was an alter ego
of the Greek earth goddess Gaia whose name
derives from CA AC inverse AC CA wherefrom
the Indo-European earth goddess akka (Julius
Pokorny) and Hebrew Hawwa 'mother of all life'
English Eve, alter ego of the fertility giver BRI GID
who was an emanation of the Divine Hind or Hind
Woman CER -: I -: or CER LIL who called life
into existence (main sanctuary Altamira).
Another emanation of BRI GID was Aphrodite

BRI GID a BRI GID e a phRo dIt e

along a similar development as BRI CA Africa,
the fertile BRI (land under the southern) sky CA,
probably in reference to the Nile Valley

BRI CA a BRI CA a fRI CA

Demeter as mother of Nyx on the Elaia disc
is called SLAS in the genitive of a local dialect,
classical Greek sias, from SIA for being well, alive,
naming the goddess as the Living One, SIA being
a permutation of SAI for life, existence. In the
entrance field of the Elaia disc are offerings to
Demeter: the head of a pig (pigs were offered
to Demeter), two portable beehives (the importance
of bees was already recognized by Ukrainian farmers
seven thousand years ago), a swollen bag (probably
containing unwashed wool, another offering to
Demeter) and a vine twig (honey-sweetened wine
going along with honey-sweetened bread baked
in the oven in the center field of the Elaia disc).

The Neolithic garden sanctuaries of the bird godess
and Elaia's grove at Phigalia would have been early
versions of botanical institutes, maintained by
shamanesses and priestesses and their helpers
and pupils, among the latter a young man from
Lycosoura who became the founder of the Middle
Helladic dynasty of Tirnys in the Argolis, hero
of the Tiryns disc, the other disc or side of the
Phaistos Disc, Eponymous Tiryns, honored by Homer
as the gardener Lord Laertes. In my opinion the pair
of clay discs were maquettes for a pair of gold discs
worn on the shoulders by the Middle Helladic kings
of Tiryns, the lion-wolf-dog-bee kings on the gold
signet ring from a cache at Tiryns, honoring Demeter
Elaia with a raised libation jug, under a rain of grains,
between the kings olive sprouts (a sign also found
on the Phaistos Disc), behind Demeter Elaia the eagle
of TYR Sseyr Sseus Zeus, he who overcomes in the
double sense of rule and give TYR, emphatic Middle
Helladic Ss Ey R or Sseyr on the Phaistos Disc. The
gold signet ring is probably a copy of a wall painting
in the former Middle Helladic palace on the hill of Tiryns.

Both the formula invoking Nyx on the Elaia disc and
the banning formula of archaic power along the margin
of the Tiryns disc may keep a memory of Magdalenian
word formulae invisibly enveloping mobile art of the
Ice Age.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2013-02-15 17:35:34 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Athel Cornish-Bowden got a pretty name - and pretty
much nothing to say about language or anything else,
recently he proved that he knows not even the basics
of astronomy.

Hmm. When did I ever say anything one way or the other about astronomy
on sci.lang? Maybe you're confusing me with Peter Daniels (however
unlikely that may seem), who did indeed make the perfectly reasonable
suggestion that people in different parts of the same planet and see
the same stars and planets might independently come up with similar
calendars. Anyway, I post under my own name, so does Peter, and neither
is a sock puppet of the other.

Anyway, it's obvious (from abundant evidence) that your standards of
proof are low to the point of being non-existent, so maybe the fact
that I haven't said anything about astronomy proves to your
satisfaction that I know nothing about it.

--
athel

Peter T. Daniels

2013-02-15 20:31:06 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Athel Cornish-Bowden got a pretty name - and pretty
much nothing to say about language or anything else,
recently he proved that he knows not even the basics
of astronomy.

Hmm. When did I ever say anything one way or the other about astronomy
on sci.lang? Maybe you're confusing me with Peter Daniels (however
unlikely that may seem), who did indeed make the perfectly reasonable
suggestion that people in different parts of the same planet and see
the same stars and planets might independently come up with similar
calendars. Anyway, I post under my own name, so does Peter, and neither
is a sock puppet of the other.
Anyway, it's obvious (from abundant evidence) that your standards of
proof are low to the point of being non-existent, so maybe the fact
that I haven't said anything about astronomy proves to your
satisfaction that I know nothing about it.

Isn't it time to come clean? We're both avatars of johnk.

Arnaud F.

2013-02-15 20:59:00 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Athel Cornish-Bowden got a pretty name - and pretty
much nothing to say about language or anything else,
recently he proved that he knows not even the basics
of astronomy.

Hmm. When did I ever say anything one way or the other about astronomy
on sci.lang? Maybe you're confusing me with Peter Daniels (however
unlikely that may seem), who did indeed make the perfectly reasonable
suggestion that people in different parts of the same planet and see
the same stars and planets might independently come up with similar
calendars. Anyway, I post under my own name, so does Peter, and neither
is a sock puppet of the other.
Anyway, it's obvious (from abundant evidence) that your standards of
proof are low to the point of being non-existent, so maybe the fact
that I haven't said anything about astronomy proves to your
satisfaction that I know nothing about it.

Isn't it time to come clean? We're both avatars of johnk.

yes, mee too, yangg is also an avatar of johnk, with a Russian
aktsent.

A.
***

Yusuf B Gursey

2013-02-15 21:02:15 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Athel Cornish-Bowden got a pretty name - and pretty
much nothing to say about language or anything else,
recently he proved that he knows not even the basics
of astronomy.

Hmm. When did I ever say anything one way or the other about astronomy
on sci.lang? Maybe you're confusing me with Peter Daniels (however
unlikely that may seem), who did indeed make the perfectly reasonable
suggestion that people in different parts of the same planet and see
the same stars and planets might independently come up with similar
calendars. Anyway, I post under my own name, so does Peter, and neither
is a sock puppet of the other.
Anyway, it's obvious (from abundant evidence) that your standards of
proof are low to the point of being non-existent, so maybe the fact
that I haven't said anything about astronomy proves to your
satisfaction that I know nothing about it.

Isn't it time to come clean? We're both avatars of johnk.

me too, didn't Franz know that johnk was an expert in Turkic languages
and things Islamic!

Arnaud F.

2013-02-15 21:22:58 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Athel Cornish-Bowden got a pretty name - and pretty
much nothing to say about language or anything else,
recently he proved that he knows not even the basics
of astronomy.

Hmm. When did I ever say anything one way or the other about astronomy
on sci.lang? Maybe you're confusing me with Peter Daniels (however
unlikely that may seem), who did indeed make the perfectly reasonable
suggestion that people in different parts of the same planet and see
the same stars and planets might independently come up with similar
calendars. Anyway, I post under my own name, so does Peter, and neither
is a sock puppet of the other.
Anyway, it's obvious (from abundant evidence) that your standards of
proof are low to the point of being non-existent, so maybe the fact
that I haven't said anything about astronomy proves to your
satisfaction that I know nothing about it.

Isn't it time to come clean? We're both avatars of johnk.

me too, didn't Franz know that johnk was an expert in Turkic languages
and things Islamic!

***

OMG, millions of stalkers are about him, help needed urgent!

A.

pauljk

2013-02-16 02:03:47 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Athel Cornish-Bowden got a pretty name - and pretty
much nothing to say about language or anything else,
recently he proved that he knows not even the basics
of astronomy.

Hmm. When did I ever say anything one way or the other about astronomy
on sci.lang? Maybe you're confusing me with Peter Daniels (however
unlikely that may seem), who did indeed make the perfectly reasonable
suggestion that people in different parts of the same planet and see
the same stars and planets might independently come up with similar
calendars. Anyway, I post under my own name, so does Peter, and neither
is a sock puppet of the other.
Anyway, it's obvious (from abundant evidence) that your standards of
proof are low to the point of being non-existent, so maybe the fact
that I haven't said anything about astronomy proves to your
satisfaction that I know nothing about it.

Isn't it time to come clean? We're both avatars of johnk.

me too, didn't Franz know that johnk was an expert in Turkic languages
and things Islamic!

***
OMG, millions of stalkers are about him, help needed urgent!

Okay, I was hoping for the person in control of the avatar called
Franz Gnaedinger to put up his hand, confess and stop this prank
that has been driving people nuts for years (nine years?).

pjk

Yusuf B Gursey

2013-02-05 09:35:44 UTC

A genuine understanding of early times and language
can't come from back-projecting the Quran B (Islamic

back-projecting is what you do all the time.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
dictionairy) into the remote past, it has to come from

Enc. of Islam II states facts which are verifiable or falsifyable,
unlike your fantasies.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
reading the rich legacy of the Stone Age and Ice Age
and momuments like the Göbekli Tepe, messages
conveyed in visual language. What I do is read visual
language and translate it into my freestyle English.
My Magdalenian experiment, which makes words
and names talk and tell stories - also geographical
names like Alaska nad Chile tell stories - is based
on decades of studying and reading visual language.

Franz Gnaedinger

2013-02-02 09:12:18 UTC