Question about William de Pert’s (husband of Joan le Scrope) relationship to John de Pert and his wife Ellen

Discussion:

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Jordan Vandenberg

2018-04-14 13:19:17 UTC

Good day,

I was taking a look at the IPM’s for Joan le Scrope on the Mapping the Medieval Countryside database and I noticed in one of her IPM’s it stated,

“By grant of Ellen wife of John de Pert, chevalier , and by licence of ‪ Richard II , she held the following to her and William de Pert , her former husband, and the heirs of their bodies together [CPR 1385–1389, p. 410]. Castle Carlton, the manor with advowson of the church there, held of the king in chief as 1/20 knight’s fee.”

114 Writ. ‡ 10 October 1427. [Wymbyssh].
LINCOLNSHIRE. Inquisition. Louth 23 October 1427. [Morlay].

Does anyone know the relationship between William de Pert and the John de Pert and his wife Ellen? Is the mentioned John de Pert his father? A brother?

The link to the IPM’s of Joan de Scrope from the Mapping the Medieval Countryside database is below.

http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/23-112/114

Any insight would be welcome and appreciated.

Thanks,

Jordan Vandenberg

Jordan Vandenberg

2018-04-14 13:32:23 UTC

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I just noticed that Ellen was also married after to John de Wandesford son of Geoffrey de Wandesford of York.

It is stated in the small sample of the search results on the BHO site. The result is paywalled though.

Close Rolls, Richard II: May 1379
Calendar of Close Rolls, Richard II: Volume 1, 1377-1381

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/search?query=%22john+de+pert%22+ellen&title=

Regards,
Jordan.

Post by Jordan Vandenberg
Good day,
I was taking a look at the IPM’s for Joan le Scrope on the Mapping the Medieval Countryside database and I noticed in one of her IPM’s it stated,
“By grant of Ellen wife of John de Pert, chevalier , and by licence of ‪ Richard II , she held the following to her and William de Pert , her former husband, and the heirs of their bodies together [CPR 1385–1389, p. 410]. Castle Carlton, the manor with advowson of the church there, held of the king in chief as 1/20 knight’s fee.”
114 Writ. ‡ 10 October 1427. [Wymbyssh].
LINCOLNSHIRE. Inquisition. Louth 23 October 1427. [Morlay].
Does anyone know the relationship between William de Pert and the John de Pert and his wife Ellen? Is the mentioned John de Pert his father? A brother?
The link to the IPM’s of Joan de Scrope from the Mapping the Medieval Countryside database is below.
http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/23-112/114
Any insight would be welcome and appreciated.
Thanks,
Jordan Vandenberg

Jordan Vandenberg

2018-04-14 16:01:08 UTC

Permalink

Correction to the 2nd post in the thread regarding the connection between John de Wandesford and Ellen who the wife of John de Pert. When I read the excerpt that is visible again it doesn't actually state she is his wife. It states,

"...Westminster. John de Wandesford, son of Geoffrey de Wandesford of York, to Ellen who was wife of John de Pert knight, Roger Gretheved clerk and Thomas de..."

Does anyone have access to this record? It is on BHO and is paywalled so I am unable to view it. I am hoping it gives some more information about Ellen.

Close Rolls, Richard II: May 1379
Calendar of Close Rolls, Richard II: Volume 1, 1377-1381

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/search?query=%22john+de+pert%22+ellen&title=

Thanks,

Jordan.

Post by Jordan Vandenberg
I just noticed that Ellen was also married after to John de Wandesford son of Geoffrey de Wandesford of York.
It is stated in the small sample of the search results on the BHO site. The result is paywalled though.
Close Rolls, Richard II: May 1379
Calendar of Close Rolls, Richard II: Volume 1, 1377-1381
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/search?query=%22john+de+pert%22+ellen&title=
Regards,
Jordan.

Jordan Vandenberg

2018-04-14 13:40:47 UTC

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It appears as though William de Pert may be the son of John de Pert and Ellen his wife. I found an IPM for John de Pert in which it names a William Pert as his son and a Robert Pert as his son and heir.

421. John Pert, knight
Writ of precipimus, 14 May, 10 Richard II
LINCOLN. Inq. taken at Gayton, Saturday after Holy Trinity, 10 Richard II.

He held the under-mentioned manor in joint feoffment with Ellen his wife, to them and the heirs of their bodies, with successive remainders to William his son and the heirs male of the body of the said William, and to his own right heirs.

He also held the under-mentioned lands.
Castelcarleton. The manor, held of the king in chief by knight’s service, to wit, for a third part of a knight’s fee.
Southryston. Lands &c. worth 30s. yearly, held of William de Skrenby by knight’s service and rents of 2 lbs. pepper and 2 lbs. cummin.
He died on Monday after the Exaltation of the Holy Cross, 51 Edward III. Robert Pert, knight, aged 40 years and more, is his son and heir.
The said Ellen received the issues and profits of the premises from the time of his death until the manor was seized into the king’s hand by the escheator by virtue of an inquisition taken before him ex officio.

Writ to the escheator to enquire whether the said Ellen is still alive or not. 10 November, 11 Richard II.

LINCOLN. Inq. taken at Langwath, Thursday after St. Martin in the Winter, 11 Richard II.

The said Ellen is still alive and of sound mind.
C. Ric. II File 46 (15)

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol16/pp143-159

Does anyone have any information or insight on the family group of John de Pert?

Regards,

Jordan Vandenberg.

Jordan Vandenberg

2018-04-14 15:18:25 UTC

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I also found this in the 174 CALENDAR OF CLOSE ROLLS. 1407 MEMBRANE 23. Feb. 17:
"To the escheator in Lincolnshire. Order to give Roger de Westminster. Swylyngton knight and Joan his wife, late wife of William de Pert, livery of the manor of Castelcarleton in the parts of Lyndesey; as the king has learned by inquisition, taken by William de Gybthorp of Thorp late escheator, that Stephen Lescrope of Masseham knight at his death held the same as jointly enfeoffed with the said Joan by demise and grant of Ellen who was wife of John de Pert knight made with licence of the king to the said Stephen, William and Joan and to Richard bishop of Coventre and Lichefeld and Henry Lescrope knight and the heirs of the bodies of the said William and Joan, and that the said manor is held in chief."

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/g/genpub/ABD5312.0003.001?rgn=main;view=fulltext

I am trying to sort out the relationships of those mentioned. Is the Stephen le Scrope of Masseham mentioned, the same Stephen le Scrope who was Joan le Scrope's (wife of William de Pert and Roger Swilington) father? It seems John de Pert (who seems a good candidate to be William de Pert's father) and his wife Ellen (possibly William de Pert's mother or stepmother) mentioned are one in the same as mentioned in the previous posts.
I am also curious how Henry le Scrope and Richard, Bishop of Coventry and Lichefeld are connected to the above mentioned.

Regards,
Jordan Vandenberg.

Jordan Vandenberg

2018-04-14 16:38:26 UTC

Permalink

Came across this entry in the Calendar of Patent Rolls

1382 Oct 17 Westminster
Pardon to William son of John Pert knight for all felonies treasons Westminster murders trespasses or misprisions committed by him before the Exaltation of the Cross.
By K of his grace in Parliament and for 10 paid in the hanaper.

https://books.google.ca/books/content?id=Rm1nAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA182&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U1DI3r07FYGIMUIzW5tEnMOUyEmoQ&ci=122%2C875%2C783%2C101&edge=0

j***@gmail.com

2018-04-14 19:11:58 UTC

Permalink

Post by Jordan Vandenberg
Came across this entry in the Calendar of Patent Rolls
1382 Oct 17 Westminster
Pardon to William son of John Pert knight for all felonies treasons Westminster murders trespasses or misprisions committed by him before the Exaltation of the Cross.
By K of his grace in Parliament and for 10 paid in the hanaper.

1377:
d 579 Yorks debt Pert, Helen de, formerly wife of John de Pert, knight Kynthorp, Geoffrey de

http://www.uh.edu/waalt/index.php/CP40/466

Jordan Vandenberg

2018-04-14 20:00:48 UTC

Permalink

Thanks Joe for the link.
I am still trying to figure out more about Ellen (Elena, Helen). I haven't found any indication of who her parents might have been. I am unsure if John de Pert had a previous wife, or if Ellen was the mother of William and Robert.
Regards,
Jordan.

Post by j***@gmail.com

d 579 Yorks debt Pert, Helen de, formerly wife of John de Pert, knight Kynthorp, Geoffrey de
http://www.uh.edu/waalt/index.php/CP40/466

j***@gmail.com

2018-04-14 21:38:19 UTC

Permalink

Post by Jordan Vandenberg
Thanks Joe for the link.
I am still trying to figure out more about Ellen (Elena, Helen). I haven't found any indication of who her parents might have been. I am unsure if John de Pert had a previous wife, or if Ellen was the mother of William and Robert.
Regards,
Jordan.

John de Pert is referred to as a knight in the records. I'm surprised he can't be found on a visitation.
--JC

Jordan Vandenberg

2018-04-14 23:04:48 UTC

Permalink

Joe,

It appears that John de Pert had two sons Robert and William. I haven't posted it, but in reading I thought I saw that Robert de Pert married a Joan Poutrel and I haven't seen any record of offspring, so perhaps he died without heir. William de Pert we know had 3 daughters as his heirs. Perhaps there is no record of him in the Visitations, because his male line ended with William and Robert. I am not sure about this, but it might make sense.

Regards,
Jordan.

Post by j***@gmail.com

John de Pert is referred to as a knight in the records. I'm surprised he can't be found on a visitation.
--JC

Jordan Vandenberg

2018-04-14 19:18:48 UTC

Permalink

In the Calendar of Patent Rolls – Edward III, Volume XV, 1370-1374 there is the following regarding the manor of Castelcarleton, it being granted to John de Pert and Ellen, his wife, in tail with to William de Pert in tail. This along with the IPM of John Pert, which mentions the same property and identifies this same William as his son, and the Calendar of Close Rolls entry mentioned in a previous post (which brings the le Scrope’s into the picture) seems to provide pretty good evidence that William de Pert’s father was John de Pert.
Calendar of Patent Rolls – Edward III, Volume XV, 1370-1374
1372 Nov. 20. - Westminster
Whereas John Meriet, 'chivaler,' granted for life to Richard de Ravenser, archdeacon of Lincoln, and John de Ravenser, clerk, two parts of the manor of Castelcarleton, held in chief, with the reversion of a third part of the same expectant on the demise of Maud late the wife of John Meriet, ' chivaler,' and Thomas de Bokelond, ' chivaler,' who took the said Maud to wife, and the said Maud herself surrendered their estate in the third part to Richard and John, who entered into the two parts and the third part without licence; and afterwards with the king's licence the said John Meriet, ' chivaler,' granted the reversion of the manor expectant on the demise of Richard and John to John de Pert, ' chivaler,' and Ellen, his wife, in tail, with remainder to William de Pert in tail male and remainder over to the right heirs of John de Pert; and subsequently the said Richard and John surrendered their estate in the manor, and all their claim therein, to the said John de Pert and Ellen, who entered therein without licence; the king, for 20 marks paid by the said John Pert, has pardoned the trespasses and granted that he and Ellen may hold the manor with remainders as above.

https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE59647 (Page 218, scan Page 225)

Jordan Vandenberg

2018-04-14 19:50:03 UTC

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IPM of Henry le Scrope, Knight

245
LINCOLN.

Inq. taken at Bynbrok, Wednesday after the Assumption, 16 Richard II.

He died seised in his demesne as of fee of the under-mentioned manor of Barnolby, messuages and rent in Grymesby, and land in Boleby.
He died seised of the under-mentioned manor of Castil Carleton in joint feoffment with Richard bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, Stephen Lescrop, knight, William de Pert and Joan his wife, as more fully appears by the king’s letters patent.

Barnolby. The manor, which extends into Barnolby, Waltham, Wathe, Houton, Bruggeslee and Askeby (extent given), held of the king in chief in socage, as of his soke of Waltham. The extent includes 2a. land in Waltham which are charged with … to be paid to the lord of the bishop of Salisbury’s soke of Waltham, and a court with a leet.

Grymesby. 4 messuages and 39s. 10d. and half a farthing of rent, held of … in chief in free burgage by service of 7s. 1d. rent to be paid yearly to the bailiffs of Grymesby.

Belesby. 1/2a. land, held of the bishop of Salisbury in socage, as of his socage of Waltham, by service of 2d. rent yearly.
Castil Carleton in the parts of Lyndesey. The manor, held of the king in chief, service not known.

Date of death and heir as last above.

246

Writ to the escheator, with reference to the last inquisition to enquire whether the above-mentioned bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, Stephen Lescrop, William de Pert and Joan are still living, what estate they have in the same manor of Castil Carleton, and by what service the said manor is held of the king. 20 May, 17 Richard II.

LINCOLN. Inq. taken at Louth, Monday after the Nativity of St John the Baptist, 18 Richard II.

William Pert is dead; the others are still living. The manor is held of the king in chief by service of a rent of 2s. yearly. The said bishop, Henry Lescrop, Stephen Lescrop, William Pert and Joan had the following estate in the manor with the king’s licence, namely, to them and the heirs of the bodies of the said William and Joan, with remainder in default of such heirs to the heirs of the said Henry.

M. C. B. Dawes, H. C. Johnson, M. M. Condon, C. A. Cook and H. E. Jones, 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Richard II, File 78', in Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 17, Richard II (London, 1988), pp. 109-119. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol17/pp109-119 [accessed 14 April 2018].

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol17/pp109-119#highlight-first