In message
<1335631571.484903355.421783.poppy-***@news.eternal-september.
org>, Btms <***@thetames.me.uk> writes:
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Post by BtmsI agree but this doesn't make her having much self worth. ime the most
obstinate and difficult folk are those who inside themselves are ridden
with self doubt. They can never be wrong because being unchallengeable and
wrong is the way they hold on to what little self worth they actually
possess.
_My_ jaw dropped on reading the above paragraph. Rather than going into
my usual long tangle, I think I'll just say that our experiences (and -
probably therefore - views) differ, in this type of case more or less
diametrically.
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Post by BtmsIn real life she might or might not. Helen presents as unyielding and
determined to have her own way
She did ...
Post by Btmsbut inside is deeply insecure. Along comes
.. but I didn't feel that at all, at least not until after some months
of Rob-ing.
Post by Btmsthis strong man' willing to champion her. Willing to offer her the
adoration she seeks. He will happily and fiercely challenge anyone who is
perceived as attacking Helen's ideas and disagreeing. What a hero. She
can now be Mrs nice lady and leave Rob as Mr difficult.
I will admit that I don't understand why she collapsed under him. But
even if she really is internally insecure as you describe, I don't
extrapolate from her to determined people in general.
(Come to think of it, I think of myself as fairly determined - though
with a strong inclination to try to see the other's point of view, but I
do that so as to be able to counter their points eventually, though it
may seem I'm accommodating initially.)
Post by BtmsParents etc see Hellen as happier than ever before and despite their own
first take on Rob work to accommodate him and his influence on Helen. Not
By "despite their own first take", I presume you mean they were
suspicious of him, but were willing to keep quiet about that because
they saw how happy Helen was.
Post by Btmsan uncommon dynamic in many families I guess.
Yes - either because of the perceived happiness of one, or because
(commoner than many would admit) they're glad not to have to be involved
Post by BtmsFriends are less invested in
wanting a good relationship with them both and must be dismissed as
jealous/envious.
Indeed.
Post by BtmsMany years ago, I belonged to a little social group of young Mums. There
came a need to appoint a new leader and one of the group was very
keen/determined to take on the role. Given that this person suffered with
depression, was clearly lacking in any positive self worth and generally
lacked the personality right for this role, I was curious about why she was
so determined. I recall asking her why? Answer: "Oh Linda, people like
you are natural leaders; people like me are not. We have to fight for
leadership". My response was along the lines of: "Yes people often see me
as a leader but I avoid it. Why do you want to do it.' Her answer
staggered me: "People like me feel we are dismissed/never heard but if we
become a leader we can be in charge. The leader is never wrong and we
cannot be challenged."
I think my jaw may have dropped at that point.
Yes, mine too; clearly a rather tenuous understanding of the power of a
leader.
Post by BtmsI think she did become the
leader of the little group. I think it just fizzled out after that.
I was expecting you to say that's what happened; presumably she became
the sort of leader who _did_ not accept any challenge, and thus the rest
of the group left her to it, by leaving the group, so she eventually
only had herself to lead.
Post by BtmsOf
course this was years before I began reading about the psychopathic nature
of many Managers and top dogs in the business world!
One could say that your previous leader was the opposite of what you
describe: outwardly timid, but at heart dictatorial!
Post by BtmsGiven Helen's nature I think the Rob scenario hangs together reasonably
Well, we're led to believe that such a wearing-down of a personality
does happen; I guess if it's gradual and insidious enough it's
plausible, though I still felt it not too believable at various points.
I think - if we believe what is a drama after all - that Helen has had
short periods of at least being forced into situations where she didn't
think things through as she normally would: for example, I still think
the planned day out with Kirsty (and was it Tom?) on the steam railway
was in her mind an attempt to leave.
Post by Btmswell; what I object to is that it has become "The Archers" and all the
other stuff folk here have said.
I think we all agree about that.
It might be interesting for some (not me - I strongly dislike the
programme) to see how SO'C handles the situation back at EastEnders:
according to an article in this week's RT, the outgoing editor is
killing off Peggy Mitchell just before he goes, though _apparently_ this
was at Barbara Windsor's request rather than his own idea.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
computers don't solve problems; they help humans solve problems - Colin Barker,
Computing 1999-2-18, p. 21