[css-text-decor] Emphasis marks and auto-hiding ruby annotation

Discussion:

Xidorn Quan

2015-11-11 07:32:18 UTC

Hi,

I have a question that, if the annotation of a character is
autohidden, where should the emphasis mark be drawn for this
character?

If emphasis marks are applied to characters for which ruby is drawn in the same position as the emphasis mark, the emphasis marks are placed outside the ruby.

It reads to me that if the annotation is autohidden, the emphasis mark
would be rendered immediately on top of the character, and in the same
line as other annotations, is that correct?

ふ　がな
振り仮名

and we apply emphasis marks on it, which result makes more sense?

、、、、
ふ　がな
振り仮名

、　、、
ふ、がな
振り仮名

？

- Xidorn

Xidorn Quan

2015-11-20 10:35:41 UTC

Permalink

The situation can happen without auto-hide, and I saw both examples, so the
spec avoids saying which specifically, only "emphasis marks come outside of
ruby" (figure 9 of the spec[1].)
Authors may want to specify in future, or can live with either, I can't
answer at this moment.
In my personal opinion, especially when the middle part is missing, the
former (consistent position) looks better. On the other hand, if emphasis
marks are on the whole paragraph, and only one character has ruby, the
latter might look better. Choosing either by auto-hide or not might be one
possible option.

For the current ruby impl in Gecko, the former one is easier. I'm not
sure how hard would it be to implement the latter one. So if it
doesn't matter a lot, I'm going to implement the easier one for now.

Thanks for clarifying.

- Xidorn

fantasai

2016-12-27 12:35:26 UTC

Permalink

... repost with correct address, apologies for duplicate ...

On 11/11/2015 11:02 AM, Xidorn Quan wrote:> Hi,

Post by Xidorn Quan
I have a question that, if the annotation of a character is
autohidden, where should the emphasis mark be drawn for this
character?
# If emphasis marks are applied to characters for which ruby is drawn
# in the same position as the emphasis mark, the emphasis marks are
# placed outside the ruby.
It reads to me that if the annotation is autohidden, the emphasis mark
would be rendered immediately on top of the character, and in the same
line as other annotations, is that correct?
ふ　がな
振り仮名
and we apply emphasis marks on it, which result makes more sense?
、、、、
ふ　がな
振り仮名
or
、　、、
ふ、がな
振り仮名
？

The situation can happen without auto-hide, and I saw both examples, so
the spec avoids saying which specifically, only "emphasis marks come
outside of ruby" (figure 9 of the spec[1].)
Authors may want to specify in future, or can live with either, I can't
answer at this moment.
In my personal opinion, especially when the middle part is missing, the
former (consistent position) looks better. On the other hand, if emphasis
marks are on the whole paragraph, and only one character has ruby, the
latter might look better. Choosing either by auto-hide or not might be
one possible option.
[1] https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-decor-3/#text-emphasis-position-property

There was previous discussion on the positioning of emphasis marks
in the presence of ruby. See
http://www.w3.org/mid/AEB4771C-8ED0-49DD-B444-***@w3.org
continuing at https://www.w3.org/mid/***@w3.org
https://www.w3.org/mid/***@MAILR001.mail.lan
https://www.w3.org/mid/***@inkedblade.net

The conclusion was that the behavior illustrated in the spec is required,
which is why we did not illustrate both options. :) See
https://www.w3.org/mid/***@inkedblade.net

That said, I think auto-hidden ruby is a special case, and we should
probably spec Gecko's behavior for that.

A related question is then, what about empty annotations? Should they
match the behavior of auto-hidden ruby or non-annotated text?

CCing Murakami-san for thoughts. :)

~fantasai

Shinyu Murakami

2017-04-08 11:54:45 UTC

Permalink

Post by fantasai

On 11/11/2015 11:02 AM, Xidorn Quan wrote:> Hi,

The situation can happen without auto-hide, and I saw both examples, so
the spec avoids saying which specifically, only "emphasis marks come
outside of ruby" (figure 9 of the spec[1].)
Authors may want to specify in future, or can live with either, I can't
answer at this moment.
In my personal opinion, especially when the middle part is missing, the
former (consistent position) looks better. On the other hand, if emphasis
marks are on the whole paragraph, and only one character has ruby, the
latter might look better. Choosing either by auto-hide or not might be
one possible option.
[1] https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-decor-3/#text-emphasis-position-property

There was previous discussion on the positioning of emphasis marks
in the presence of ruby. See
The conclusion was that the behavior illustrated in the spec is required,
which is why we did not illustrate both options. :) See
That said, I think auto-hidden ruby is a special case, and we should
probably spec Gecko's behavior for that.
A related question is then, what about empty annotations? Should they
match the behavior of auto-hidden ruby or non-annotated text?

I agree that the Gecko's behavior is pretty good, and I think the emphasis mark position should be consistent within a ruby element (empty annotations should match the behavior of auto-hidden).

So both
ああ<ruby><rb>振<rb>り<rb>仮<rb>名<rt>ふ<rt>り<rt>が<rt>な</ruby>ああ
(auto-hidden ruby annotation for "り")
and
ああ<ruby><rb>振<rb>り<rb>仮<rb>名<rt>ふ<rt><rt>が<rt>な</ruby>ああ
(empty ruby annotation for "り")
should have the same result:
　　、、、、
、、ふ　がな、、
ああ振り仮名ああ

I think this behavior is reasonable for readability, and also because of the ruby layout structure (similar to the table structure, the cell position in a row should not change when a cell in the previous row is empty).

--
Shinyu Murakami
Founder & CTO, Vivliostyle Inc.

r12a

2017-04-26 18:25:30 UTC

Permalink

I raised an issue in the jlreq repo asking for requirements to be added
related to this.

See https://github.com/w3c/jlreq/issues/8

ri

fantasai

2017-10-19 01:43:37 UTC

Permalink

Post by Shinyu Murakami

Post by fantasai

On 11/11/2015 11:02 AM, Xidorn Quan wrote:> Hi,

Post by Xidorn Quan
I have a question that, if the annotation of a character is
autohidden, where should the emphasis mark be drawn for this
character?

In my personal opinion, especially when the middle part is missing, the
former (consistent position) looks better. On the other hand, if emphasis
marks are on the whole paragraph, and only one character has ruby, the
latter might look better. Choosing either by auto-hide or not might be
one possible option.
[1] https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-decor-3/#text-emphasis-position-property

I agree that the Gecko's behavior is pretty good, and I think the emphasis mark
position should be consistent within a ruby element (empty annotations should
match the behavior of auto-hidden).
So both
ああ<ruby><rb>振<rb>り<rb>仮<rb>名<rt>ふ<rt>り<rt>が<rt>な</ruby>ああ
(auto-hidden ruby annotation for "り")
and
ああ<ruby><rb>振<rb>り<rb>仮<rb>名<rt>ふ<rt><rt>が<rt>な</ruby>ああ
(empty ruby annotation for "り")
　　、、、、
、、ふ　がな、、
ああ振り仮名ああ
I think this behavior is reasonable for readability, and also because of the
ruby layout structure (similar to the table structure, the cell position in
a row should not change when a cell in the previous row is empty).

I have edited this into the spec as follows:

# If emphasis marks are applied to characters
# for which ruby is drawn in the same position as the emphasis mark,
# the emphasis marks are placed outside the ruby.

Appending

# This includes auto-hidden and empty ruby annotations.

Xidorn, please let me know if this works for you. :)

~fantasai

Xidorn Quan

2017-10-19 01:47:49 UTC

Permalink

Post by Xidorn Quan

Post by Shinyu Murakami

Post by fantasai

On 11/11/2015 11:02 AM, Xidorn Quan wrote:> Hi,

Post by Xidorn Quan
I have a question that, if the annotation of a character is
autohidden, where should the emphasis mark be drawn for this
character?

I agree that the Gecko's behavior is pretty good, and I think the emphasis mark
position should be consistent within a ruby element (empty annotations should
match the behavior of auto-hidden).
So both
ああ<ruby><rb>振<rb>り<rb>仮<rb>名<rt>ふ<rt>り<rt>が<rt>な</ruby>ああ
(auto-hidden ruby annotation for "り")
and
ああ<ruby><rb>振<rb>り<rb>仮<rb>名<rt>ふ<rt><rt>が<rt>な</ruby>ああ
(empty ruby annotation for "り")
　　、、、、
、、ふ　がな、、
ああ振り仮名ああ
I think this behavior is reasonable for readability, and also because of the
ruby layout structure (similar to the table structure, the cell position in
a row should not change when a cell in the previous row is empty).

# If emphasis marks are applied to characters
# for which ruby is drawn in the same position as the emphasis mark,
# the emphasis marks are placed outside the ruby.
Appending
# This includes auto-hidden and empty ruby annotations.
Xidorn, please let me know if this works for you. :)

Yeah, it works for me, thanks.

- Xidorn