Paleo-etymology and ancient cave-shelters

[Daud Deden]

I'm starting to check the names of the caves associated with early AMHs (Anatomically Modern Homo sapiens) or hominin remains for possible paleo-etymologies, I'm not claiming these as factual, but as reasonable interpetations.

est. 80ka
Bhimbetke (Narmada River, central India) Bambatwa-Ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously painted (cave)wall

est. 72ka
Lida Ajer (Sumatra) may be Lidah Air (Modern Malay) = tongue water

["Sumatra" from Sumbatwa = Xyua + mBatwa = Sieve + Pygmy clan which uses click consonants per Merrit Ruhlen, linguist)]

120ka? (uncertain date)
Mata Menge (Flores) = Mata + menge = eye/point/hole + dark(mengelap),

50ka? (uncertain date)
Ling Bua (Flores) = Ling + Bua = zero or ceiling(?) + cave (cf. (Malay: gua cave)

est. 60ka
Madjedbembe (Queensland, North Australia)= Image-magic + ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously glitter-painted(cave)wall

est. 55ka
Booti (island, Northwest Australia) = Birth/beget/mother = Mbo(oldest African YDNA; Mbo in Balinese: mother) + uterine-youth-utility~fertility(?) ~ BaM.buti(Congo Ituri rainforest Pygmy tribe)

I need to find the indigenous names of some more caves:
Sulawesi cave with world's oldest painted walls ?
Laos Monkey Cave (Pygmy skull fossil) ?
Borneo (Spirit?) Cave ? 45KA?
Toraja burial caves
Chauvet (France) and other European painted caves with odd or ancient unknown names carried since antiquity.
Southern African cave shelters with artifacts (ochre crayons, etched eggshells like Howieson Poort ~ 65ka

Note: Spirit/Spooky = haunt(English) = hantu(Malay:white-faced ghost) = Kabuki(Japan:white-faced ghost theatre) = Kaoáíbógí(Piraha tribe, Maici River, Amazon, Brazil: white-faced spirit guide/theatre)

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Daud Deden
I'm starting to check the names of the caves associated with early AMHs (Anatomically Modern Homo sapiens) or hominin remains for possible paleo-etymologies, I'm not claiming these as factual, but as reasonable interpetations.
est. 80ka
Bhimbetke (Narmada River, central India) Bambatwa-Ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously painted (cave)wall
est. 72ka
Lida Ajer (Sumatra) may be Lidah Air (Modern Malay) = tongue water
["Sumatra" from Sumbatwa = Xyua + mBatwa = Sieve + Pygmy clan which uses click consonants per Merrit Ruhlen, linguist)]
120ka? (uncertain date)
Mata Menge (Flores) = Mata + menge = eye/point/hole + dark(mengelap),
50ka? (uncertain date)
Ling Bua (Flores) = Ling + Bua = zero or ceiling(?) + cave (cf. (Malay: gua cave)
est. 60ka
Madjedbembe (Queensland, North Australia)= Image-magic + ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously glitter-painted(cave)wall
est. 55ka
Booti (island, Northwest Australia) = Birth/beget/mother = Mbo(oldest African YDNA; Mbo in Balinese: mother) + uterine-youth-utility~fertility(?) ~ BaM.buti(Congo Ituri rainforest Pygmy tribe)
Sulawesi cave with world's oldest painted walls ?
Laos Monkey Cave (Pygmy skull fossil) ?
Borneo (Spirit?) Cave ? 45KA?
Toraja burial caves
Chauvet (France) and other European painted caves with odd or ancient unknown names carried since antiquity.
Southern African cave shelters with artifacts (ochre crayons, etched eggshells like Howieson Poort ~ 65ka
Note: Spirit/Spooky = haunt(English) = hantu(Malay:white-faced ghost) = Kabuki(Japan:white-faced ghost theatre) = Kaoáíbógí(Piraha tribe, Maici River, Amazon, Brazil: white-faced spirit guide/theatre)

What exactly is your aim? The names of Paleolithic caves are recent,
for example the Chauvet cave is named for Monsieur Chauvet who was among
the few people who discovered and explored that amazing cave.

More interesting is translating the elements of cave painting into language.
The oldest element identified so far is a red ocher dot in the Altamira
cave, 41,000 plus minus years old. In my opinion, a red ocher dot stands
for life SAI while the cave wall stands for the sky CA, together SAI CA
which might have become Greek psychae 'soul'. Such a red ocher dot would
have claimed a second life in the beyond for a worthy soul. Greek psychae
also means butterfly; amazingly a butterfly is found among the drawings
in the Chauvet cave, while the large domino five with an additional dot
in elevated position in the Brunel chamber may be read as follows: PAS
for everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west
of me, in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five',
and again CA for sky, together: may the bullman (depicted on a stalactite
in the rear chamber of the cave) be reborn by the goddess of the Summer
Triangle Deneb Vega Atair (Venus on the same stalactite) in the sky CA,
and may the bullman (a worthy supreme leader of the Lower Rhone Valley)
roam the sky in his next life as he roams (or roamed) the land in this life
- may he get everywhere PAS in the sky CA ...

Red ocher dots and hand impressions are also known from Indonesia, where
they are even older, some 60,000 year old, if memory serves. Do they have
the same meaning as the ones in European caves? imploring a second life
in the beyond for a worthy soul?

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Daud Deden
I'm starting to check the names of the caves associated with early AMHs (Anatomically Modern Homo sapiens) or hominin remains for possible paleo-etymologies, I'm not claiming these as factual, but as reasonable interpetations.
est. 80ka
Bhimbetke (Narmada River, central India) Bambatwa-Ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously painted (cave)wall
est. 72ka
Lida Ajer (Sumatra) may be Lidah Air (Modern Malay) = tongue water
["Sumatra" from Sumbatwa = Xyua + mBatwa = Sieve + Pygmy clan which uses click consonants per Merrit Ruhlen, linguist)]
120ka? (uncertain date)
Mata Menge (Flores) = Mata + menge = eye/point/hole + dark(mengelap),
50ka? (uncertain date)
Ling Bua (Flores) = Ling + Bua = zero or ceiling(?) + cave (cf. (Malay: gua cave)
est. 60ka
Madjedbembe (Queensland, North Australia)= Image-magic + ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously glitter-painted(cave)wall
est. 55ka
Booti (island, Northwest Australia) = Birth/beget/mother = Mbo(oldest African YDNA; Mbo in Balinese: mother) + uterine-youth-utility~fertility(?) ~ BaM.buti(Congo Ituri rainforest Pygmy tribe)
Sulawesi cave with world's oldest painted walls ?
Laos Monkey Cave (Pygmy skull fossil) ?
Borneo (Spirit?) Cave ? 45KA?
Toraja burial caves
Chauvet (France) and other European painted caves with odd or ancient unknown names carried since antiquity.
Southern African cave shelters with artifacts (ochre crayons, etched eggshells like Howieson Poort ~ 65ka
Note: Spirit/Spooky = haunt(English) = hantu(Malay:white-faced ghost) = Kabuki(Japan:white-faced ghost theatre) = Kaoáíbógí(Piraha tribe, Maici River, Amazon, Brazil: white-faced spirit guide/theatre)

What exactly is your aim? The names of Paleolithic caves are recent,

That has never deterred you in the past. You called it "oscillation".

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
for example the Chauvet cave is named for Monsieur Chauvet who was among
the few people who discovered and explored that amazing cave.
More interesting is translating the elements of cave painting into language.
The oldest element identified so far is a red ocher dot in the Altamira
cave, 41,000 plus minus years old. In my opinion, a red ocher dot stands
for life SAI while the cave wall stands for the sky CA, together SAI CA
which might have become Greek psychae 'soul'. Such a red ocher dot would
have claimed a second life in the beyond for a worthy soul. Greek psychae
also means butterfly; amazingly a butterfly is found among the drawings
in the Chauvet cave, while the large domino five with an additional dot
in elevated position in the Brunel chamber may be read as follows: PAS
for everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west
of me, in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five',
and again CA for sky, together: may the bullman (depicted on a stalactite
in the rear chamber of the cave) be reborn by the goddess of the Summer
Triangle Deneb Vega Atair (Venus on the same stalactite) in the sky CA,
and may the bullman (a worthy supreme leader of the Lower Rhone Valley)
roam the sky in his next life as he roams (or roamed) the land in this life
- may he get everywhere PAS in the sky CA ...
Red ocher dots and hand impressions are also known from Indonesia, where
they are even older, some 60,000 year old, if memory serves. Do they have
the same meaning as the ones in European caves? imploring a second life
in the beyond for a worthy soul?

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
What exactly is your aim? The names of Paleolithic caves are recent,
for example the Chauvet cave is named for Monsieur Chauvet who was among
the few people who discovered and explored that amazing cave.
More interesting is translating the elements of cave painting into language.
The oldest element identified so far is a red ocher dot in the Altamira
cave, 41,000 plus minus years old. In my opinion, a red ocher dot stands
for life SAI while the cave wall stands for the sky CA, together SAI CA
which might have become Greek psychae 'soul'. Such a red ocher dot would
have claimed a second life in the beyond for a worthy soul. Greek psychae
also means butterfly; amazingly a butterfly is found among the drawings
in the Chauvet cave, while the large domino five with an additional dot
in elevated position in the Brunel chamber may be read as follows: PAS
for everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west
of me, in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five',
and again CA for sky, together: may the bullman (depicted on a stalactite
in the rear chamber of the cave) be reborn by the goddess of the Summer
Triangle Deneb Vega Atair (Venus on the same stalactite) in the sky CA,
and may the bullman (a worthy supreme leader of the Lower Rhone Valley)
roam the sky in his next life as he roams (or roamed) the land in this life
- may he get everywhere PAS in the sky CA ...
Red ocher dots and hand impressions are also known from Indonesia, where
they are even older, some 60,000 year old, if memory serves. Do they have
the same meaning as the ones in European caves? imploring a second life
in the beyond for a worthy soul?

Having looked up a film on the Chauvet cave I can give more information
about the butterfly. It appears in the passage in the middle of the cave
and is a small perhaps life-sized red ocher butterfly at the bottom of
a sinter framed vertical stripe, heading upward. I see it as a variation
of the red ocher dots on a cave wall that read

SAI CA pSAI CA psychae 'soul, butterfly'

So a butterfly might have taken away the soul of a worthy dead and carried
it upward to heavens - in the imagination of the Stone Age people some
36,000 or 32,000 years ago.

A remarkable common feature in European cave art and in the rock art of
Southern Africa are animals emerging from and disappearing into clefts and
niches in the rock, anticipating Vladimir Vernadsky's famous dictum about
life as metamorphosis of rock. We have here very ancient and widespread
ideas about life. The idea of life emerging from rock, and especially
moon bulls called into life by the Divine Hind is the topic of the
Altamira cave. All caves I interpreted are concerned with the circle
of life and a next life in the beyond. Maybe this is a constant in all of
cave and rock art?

[Daud Deden]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
What exactly is your aim? The names of Paleolithic caves are recent,
for example the Chauvet cave is named for Monsieur Chauvet who was among
the few people who discovered and explored that amazing cave.
More interesting is translating the elements of cave painting into language.
The oldest element identified so far is a red ocher dot in the Altamira
cave, 41,000 plus minus years old. In my opinion, a red ocher dot stands
for life SAI while the cave wall stands for the sky CA, together SAI CA
which might have become Greek psychae 'soul'. Such a red ocher dot would
have claimed a second life in the beyond for a worthy soul. Greek psychae
also means butterfly; amazingly a butterfly is found among the drawings
in the Chauvet cave, while the large domino five with an additional dot
in elevated position in the Brunel chamber may be read as follows: PAS
for everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west
of me, in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five',
and again CA for sky, together: may the bullman (depicted on a stalactite
in the rear chamber of the cave) be reborn by the goddess of the Summer
Triangle Deneb Vega Atair (Venus on the same stalactite) in the sky CA,
and may the bullman (a worthy supreme leader of the Lower Rhone Valley)
roam the sky in his next life as he roams (or roamed) the land in this life
- may he get everywhere PAS in the sky CA ...
Red ocher dots and hand impressions are also known from Indonesia, where
they are even older, some 60,000 year old, if memory serves. Do they have
the same meaning as the ones in European caves? imploring a second life
in the beyond for a worthy soul?

Having looked up a film on the Chauvet cave I can give more information
about the butterfly.

Mbuti Pygmies see blowflies swarming the dead as angels taking the soul of the dead to heaven, perhaps source of zoroasterian vulture role.

Efe Pygmies per Kevin Duffy, had a central place in the rainforest, named for butterfly("Apalura"), close to where the god Tore(the big god) lived in a cave (Pygmies avoid caves) protected by a big snake.

Note: Apa = fire-afa.yre-afire-pyre, camp, hearth. Api(Malay) fire, Ape(Ainu) fire, Apo(India dialect)


It appears in the passage in the middle of the cave

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
and is a small perhaps life-sized red ocher butterfly at the bottom of
a sinter framed vertical stripe, heading upward. I see it as a variation
of the red ocher dots on a cave wall that read
SAI CA pSAI CA psychae 'soul, butterfly'
So a butterfly might have taken away the soul of a worthy dead and carried
it upward to heavens - in the imagination of the Stone Age people some
36,000 or 32,000 years ago.

Yes, perhaps either the wind (open steppe) or flapping thing (closed forest).
Heaven/heofan(Goth)/*Xya.uan/Zi.on(Heb)/high.on/Ti.an(Chinese)
Heaven ~ leaven bread ~ aloft ~ eleven (above 10) ~ elevate ~ syaduof(Arab)=lifting water to feed canal = shuttle-duffle bag = xiotl(Aztec) + doft/dove

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A remarkable common feature in European cave art and in the rock art of
Southern Africa are animals emerging from and disappearing into clefts and
niches in the rock, anticipating Vladimir Vernadsky's famous dictum about
life as metamorphosis of rock. We have here very ancient and widespread
ideas about life. The idea of life emerging from rock, and especially
moon bulls called into life by the Divine Hind is the topic of the
Altamira cave. All caves I interpreted are concerned with the circle
of life and a next life in the beyond. Maybe this is a constant in all of
cave and rock art?

Holy/orderly/otli(Aztec)/olle!(Spanish)

I can't say, a bit wary of interpretations, though yours' seem ok so far.

The !hxaro etched eggshell (personalized canteen) exchange by !Kung San women started all trade at least 60ka (Howieson Poort So Af), to Australia (Tzuringa oystershell trade for inland wood plank to draw clan history).

Oldest bark canoes (followed by oldest log dugout canoe) started at Papua via Sago palm flour processing, leaving a rind-bark shell large enough for a Yali Pygmy to use on a river. Before that only coracles (inverted waterproof dome huts = domicile=dome-shield, as used by Herakles to cross sea, the original Jasons Argo in Black Sea was arigolu(India: Dayshine coracle) which was inversion of Pygmy mongolu(moon-mother dome hut). Bark canoes used by primitive Piraha(Amazon- no numbers or colors or creation stories), Yahgan (Chile Tierra del Fuego), Austl. Aborig.

[Daud Deden]

Post by Daud Deden

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
What exactly is your aim? The names of Paleolithic caves are recent,
for example the Chauvet cave is named for Monsieur Chauvet who was among
the few people who discovered and explored that amazing cave.
More interesting is translating the elements of cave painting into language.
The oldest element identified so far is a red ocher dot in the Altamira
cave, 41,000 plus minus years old. In my opinion, a red ocher dot stands
for life SAI while the cave wall stands for the sky CA, together SAI CA
which might have become Greek psychae 'soul'. Such a red ocher dot would
have claimed a second life in the beyond for a worthy soul. Greek psychae
also means butterfly; amazingly a butterfly is found among the drawings
in the Chauvet cave, while the large domino five with an additional dot
in elevated position in the Brunel chamber may be read as follows: PAS
for everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west
of me, in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five',
and again CA for sky, together: may the bullman (depicted on a stalactite
in the rear chamber of the cave) be reborn by the goddess of the Summer
Triangle Deneb Vega Atair (Venus on the same stalactite) in the sky CA,
and may the bullman (a worthy supreme leader of the Lower Rhone Valley)
roam the sky in his next life as he roams (or roamed) the land in this life
- may he get everywhere PAS in the sky CA ...
Red ocher dots and hand impressions are also known from Indonesia, where
they are even older, some 60,000 year old, if memory serves. Do they have
the same meaning as the ones in European caves? imploring a second life
in the beyond for a worthy soul?

Having looked up a film on the Chauvet cave I can give more information
about the butterfly.

Mbuti Pygmies see blowflies swarming the dead as angels taking the soul of the dead to heaven, perhaps source of zoroasterian vulture role.
Efe Pygmies per Kevin Duffy, had a central place in the rainforest, named for butterfly("Apalura"), close to where the god Tore(the big god) lived in a cave (Pygmies avoid caves) protected by a big snake.
Note: Apa = fire-afa.yre-afire-pyre, camp, hearth. Api(Malay) fire, Ape(Ainu) fire, Apo(India dialect)
It appears in the passage in the middle of the cave

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
and is a small perhaps life-sized red ocher butterfly at the bottom of
a sinter framed vertical stripe, heading upward. I see it as a variation
of the red ocher dots on a cave wall that read
SAI CA pSAI CA psychae 'soul, butterfly'
So a butterfly might have taken away the soul of a worthy dead and carried
it upward to heavens - in the imagination of the Stone Age people some
36,000 or 32,000 years ago.

Yes, perhaps either the wind (open steppe) or flapping thing (closed forest).
Heaven/heofan(Goth)/*Xya.uan/Zi.on(Heb)/high.on/Ti.an(Chinese)
Heaven ~ leaven bread ~ aloft ~ eleven (above 10) ~ elevate ~ syaduof(Arab)=lifting water to feed canal = shuttle-duffle bag = xiotl(Aztec) + doft/dove

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A remarkable common feature in European cave art and in the rock art of
Southern Africa are animals emerging from and disappearing into clefts and
niches in the rock, anticipating Vladimir Vernadsky's famous dictum about
life as metamorphosis of rock. We have here very ancient and widespread
ideas about life. The idea of life emerging from rock, and especially
moon bulls called into life by the Divine Hind is the topic of the
Altamira cave. All caves I interpreted are concerned with the circle
of life and a next life in the beyond. Maybe this is a constant in all of
cave and rock art?

Holy/orderly/otli(Aztec)/olle!(Spanish)
I can't say, a bit wary of interpretations, though yours' seem ok so far.
The !hxaro etched eggshell (personalized canteen) exchange by !Kung San women started all trade at least 60ka (Howieson Poort So Af), to Australia (Tzuringa oystershell trade for inland wood plank to draw clan history).
Oldest bark canoes (followed by oldest log dugout canoe) started at Papua via Sago palm flour processing, leaving a rind-bark shell large enough for a Yali Pygmy to use on a river. Before that only coracles (inverted waterproof dome huts = domicile=dome-shield, as used by Herakles to cross sea, the original Jasons Argo in Black Sea was arigolu(India: Dayshine coracle) which was inversion of Pygmy mongolu(moon-mother dome hut). Bark canoes used by primitive Piraha(Amazon- no numbers or colors or creation stories), Yahgan (Chile Tierra del Fuego), Austl. Aborig., Tasmanians, Chippewa birchbark canoes, Curragh/coracle all preceded log dugout canoes which required more evolved adze than Papuan sago processing tool.

Apalura(Efe Pygmy) ~ apple, Apollo, a-plume (feather or frond used to ignite the smoldering ember which Pygmies carried (no fire drill in rainforest)
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170815095041.htm
plume ~ flume-flute
loom? not sure how linked to fire flapper/bellows. jarum(Malay) loom

Guanxi/Guandong CHina - Karst regions

[Daud Deden]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Daud Deden
I'm starting to check the names of the caves associated with early AMHs (Anatomically Modern Homo sapiens) or hominin remains for possible paleo-etymologies, I'm not claiming these as factual, but as reasonable interpetations.
est. 80ka
Bhimbetke (Narmada River, central India) Bambatwa-Ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously painted (cave)wall
est. 72ka
Lida Ajer (Sumatra) may be Lidah Air (Modern Malay) = tongue water
["Sumatra" from Sumbatwa = Xyua + mBatwa = Sieve + Pygmy clan which uses click consonants per Merrit Ruhlen, linguist)]
120ka? (uncertain date)
Mata Menge (Flores) = Mata + menge = eye/point/hole + dark(mengelap),
50ka? (uncertain date)
Ling Bua (Flores) = Ling + Bua = zero or ceiling(?) + cave (cf. (Malay: gua cave)
est. 60ka
Madjedbembe (Queensland, North Australia)= Image-magic + ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously glitter-painted(cave)wall
est. 55ka
Booti (island, Northwest Australia) = Birth/beget/mother = Mbo(oldest African YDNA; Mbo in Balinese: mother) + uterine-youth-utility~fertility(?) ~ BaM.buti(Congo Ituri rainforest Pygmy tribe)
Sulawesi cave with world's oldest painted walls ?
Laos Monkey Cave (Pygmy skull fossil) ?
Borneo (Spirit?) Cave ? 45KA?
Toraja burial caves
Chauvet (France) and other European painted caves with odd or ancient unknown names carried since antiquity.
Southern African cave shelters with artifacts (ochre crayons, etched eggshells like Howieson Poort ~ 65ka
Note: Spirit/Spooky = haunt(English) = hantu(Malay:white-faced ghost) = Kabuki(Japan:white-faced ghost theatre) = Kaoáíbógí(Piraha tribe, Maici River, Amazon, Brazil: white-faced spirit guide/theatre)

What exactly is your aim?

The linguistic journey of ancestral mankind ~

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The names of Paleolithic caves are recent,
for example the Chauvet cave is named for Monsieur Chauvet who was among
the few people who discovered and explored that amazing cave.

Yes, most locally popular caves have 'new' names, others have translated old names, others have original/ancient names only known by the indigent local natives.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
More interesting is translating the elements of cave painting into language.
The oldest element identified so far is a red ocher dot in the Altamira
cave, 41,000 plus minus years old. In my opinion, a red ocher dot stands
for life SAI while the cave wall stands for the sky CA, together SAI CA
which might have become Greek psychae 'soul'.

XYA = sky/shine/cy.an/eau.cy.an(ocean) above the (grassy) canopy
eg. Kha.n, Tza.r, Sha.h, Ki.ng, Te.nger, Te.rangi, Zi.on, Thio.pes)

XYUA = sieve/sift/soft(rain, flour) beneath the (leafy) canopy
eg. cup, cuff, qufa, sofa?, c.ove.r

Such a red ocher dot would

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
have claimed a second life in the beyond for a worthy soul.

To the gatherer, ochre was life, as was red blood/bara/birth;
To the hunter, blood was death of prey.
So ochre was rebirth-eternal?

Greek psychae

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
also means butterfly;

butterfly-flutterby(Engl)= ramarama(Malay)=kupukupu(Malay: moth)=psychae(Greek)=mariposa(Spanish)=papillon(French)=papalotl(Aztec)

amazingly a butterfly is found among the drawings

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
in the Chauvet cave, while the large domino five with an additional dot
in elevated position in the Brunel chamber may be read as follows: PAS

PAS pas(French) step, ~ ped/foot, tleca(Aztec) step(s)...step.pe(s) vs. stop

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
for everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west
of me, in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five',
and again CA for sky, together: may the bullman (depicted on a stalactite
in the rear chamber of the cave) be reborn by the goddess of the Summer
Triangle Deneb Vega Atair (Venus on the same stalactite) in the sky CA,
and may the bullman (a worthy supreme leader of the Lower Rhone Valley)
roam the sky in his next life as he roams (or roamed) the land in this life
- may he get everywhere PAS in the sky CA ...
Red ocher dots and hand impressions are also known from Indonesia, where
they are even older, some 60,000 year old, if memory serves.

36ka?

Do they have

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
the same meaning as the ones in European caves? imploring a second life
in the beyond for a worthy soul?

Ochre mined ~ 100ka southern Africa
Red lead - cinnabar dot in India forehead - reincarnate?

Always possible that interpretations are false, no real way to verify.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Daud Deden
36ka?
Ochre mined ~ 100ka southern Africa
Red lead - cinnabar dot in India forehead - reincarnate?
Always possible that interpretations are false, no real way to verify.

Yes, new datings give the age of the earliest drawings or paintings in the
Chauvet cave as 36,000 years, older than the previous 32,000 years.

South Africa in the Middle Stone Age was the avantgarde of civilization.
The people of the Pinnacle Point (125 000 BP) used a glue of two components
in fixing a flint blade to a wooden handle or shaft. For me the sensation
of the Blombos cave are the red ochre prisms with carved series of framed
and overlapping rhombs. My interpretation is that they are the abstract
emblem of the crane in the act of creating the world, space by unfolding
the wings, and time by flapping the wings. While the perforated shells of
snails might have been part of an abacus-like device for counting days.

Gael de Cuichen: Archaeology is not an exact science but a speculative one,
a science of imagination ... Note well: a _science_ of imagination.

Post by Daud Deden
Mbuti Pygmies see blowflies swarming the dead as angels taking the soul of the dead to heaven, perhaps source of zoroasterian vulture role.

See, the idea of butterflies and such taking the soul of worthy dead with
them into a heavenly beyond is widespread and therefore very ancient.

[Daud Deden]

Blowflies swarm, butterflies do so rarely, although they did at Apalura, at a river shallow beach under a sunlit opening in the rainforest near Tore's cave, per Duffy.

400ka zigzaged freshwater shell at Java.

Cranes & Pygmies battled per Homer.

My hometown Red Wing, (Shoe Co.) Minnesota was named for the significance of a dyed red crane wing in Dakota ritual, perhaps linked to fire. Original name: rhemnica

Blombos - Dutch: bloom, linked to plume, flow.er, tomb, womb, endumongolu(Mbuti: home interior)

[Daud Deden]

Gods & Ghosts

***@Yoruba: Voodoo

Zombie.voodoo = *Xyambviudiu
Xyam/shine-skin
embody/bounteous
doo/Tiw/Deus/Zeus

***@OldDutch: cord-twine-tie used to embellish-finish a bell beaker

Spooky/kabuki ~ pussy/booty

CA canvas/cannibis/skin of kayak-khudru(Tibet)-canoa(1st of rind/bark/skin but 1st coracle of broad-leaves on wicker basket).

Cannot rely too much on cave paintings w/o knowing if other perishable methods used (bark, vellum, charcoal), fossil preservation bias.

***@Mbuti:embody/punt/font

[Daud Deden]

Ochre was long preceded by red plant dye in rainforest, both Congo Pygmies (red bark) & Amazon Pirahã (red seed pod) use it for blood/aura.

Number-Qua.ntize =
Nama-Qua/Khoe(herding bushmen), (long after rainforest diaspora of H&G Pygmies where pro-portions of meat were most important).

Upright bipedal apes (gibbon, orangutan, human) have lunar menstrual period 28/29 days, but quadrupedal monkeys and knucklewalking apes(chimp, gorilla) do not.

[Daud Deden]

Nama.qua = name/num. quantity
BamBa.twa/kwa = OOA Pygmies
Aba.cu(a)s = has cash/cache of ostrich disc beads(Chinese holey coin) on lace/bark-string/tlaca(Aztec: bark, wick), given to ferry-rates/eupharates/pilots to cross big water in coracle/qufarigolu/cup.herakles, originally from !Kung San !hxaro/etched eggshell(bell/ball/oval(inga)/z.oevary/z.ifr/z(ph)ero) gift-exchange=
harga(Malay:charge)=
Tzuringa(Austl): zigzagged oyster shell exchanged for plaque to be ochre-painted ones' maternal clan totem's dreamtime (ancient) journey.
Quanto/kantong(Malay: pocket-cannister/canastros(Greek): cane basket/Container/Canada(Iroquois): container of people(village)= Khotan(Ainu)village=
Khotan-village in Tarim Basin on Silk Road)

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Daud Deden
Blowflies swarm, butterflies do so rarely, although they did at Apalura, at a river shallow beach under a sunlit opening in the rainforest near Tore's cave, per Duffy.
400ka zigzaged freshwater shell at Java.
Cranes & Pygmies battled per Homer.

There is a mountain valley in Crete famous for millions of swarming
butterflies, and a place in America where monarchs gather by millions,
also swarming, coming from everywhere.

Is that freshwater shell at Java decorated by a human hand?

What cranes and pygmies have to do with Homer I don't understand.

I preferred if you would focus on a single cave which, you believe,
is explained by a modern name.

Here a joke for Yusuf Gürsey: 36,000 years ago the Chauvet cave was called
la grotte des cinq mille chauve-souris 'cave of the five thousand bat's'
which lingered on in the unconscious mind of the locals who chose monsieur
Chauvet as modern name giver, because of the similarity chauve- and Chauvet

[Daud Deden]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Daud Deden
Blowflies swarm, butterflies do so rarely, although they did at Apalura, at a river shallow beach under a sunlit opening in the rainforest near Tore's cave, per Duffy.
400ka zigzaged freshwater shell at Java.
Cranes & Pygmies battled per Homer.

There is a mountain valley in Crete famous for millions of swarming
butterflies, and a place in America where monarchs gather by millions,
also swarming, coming from everywhere.

Yes. Mexico, a forested mountain valley.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Is that freshwater shell at Java decorated by a human hand?

Claimed a Homo erectus "Java Man", although I'm wary of the early date claim. Zigzag etching is common much later in Africa, !hxaro ostrich eggshell canteens 60ka, Tsuringa oyster shell 40ka to recent historical contact.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
What cranes and pygmies have to do with Homer I don't understand.

See ref. http://www.pygmies.org/about/pygmy.php

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I preferred if you would focus on a single cave which, you believe,
is explained by a modern name.

Yes, but it is early in the project, still much info. to gather.
Bhimbetke, Bimbache, Masjedbebe appear significant.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Here a joke for Yusuf Gürsey: 36,000 years ago the Chauvet cave was called
la grotte des cinq mille chauve-souris 'cave of the five thousand bat's'
which lingered on in the unconscious mind of the locals who chose monsieur
Chauvet as modern name giver, because of the similarity chauve- and Chauvet

[Daud Deden]

350ka megafauna bones in Karain Cave, Antalya, Turkey

"Archeologists have discovered the bones of a large 350,000-year-old animal during excavations at the Karain Cave in the southern Turkish province of Antalya. There are 500,000-year-old remnants here. Neanderthal bones of early humans have been unearthed in the cave."

Karain ~ Kara'ite = People of Crimea, "Kara'im'ea", part of Jewish Khazaria which also included the confluence of 4 rivers of Eden: DaNube/DNieper/DNiester/DoNetz and the Caucasus between Black Sea and Caspian.
KaraKahns ~ Turkish Khanites that 1st converted to Islam
Hebrew word for ancestor: Hor'im in Cana'an

Cana'an + Karakahn + Hor'im/Hori'te + Karain + Kara'im

Post by Daud Deden

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Daud Deden
Blowflies swarm, butterflies do so rarely, although they did at Apalura, at a river shallow beach under a sunlit opening in the rainforest near Tore's cave, per Duffy.
400ka zigzaged freshwater shell at Java.
Cranes & Pygmies battled per Homer.

There is a mountain valley in Crete famous for millions of swarming
butterflies, and a place in America where monarchs gather by millions,
also swarming, coming from everywhere.

Yes. Mexico, a forested mountain valley.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Is that freshwater shell at Java decorated by a human hand?

Claimed a Homo erectus "Java Man", although I'm wary of the early date claim. Zigzag etching is common much later in Africa, !hxaro ostrich eggshell canteens 60ka, Tsuringa oyster shell 40ka to recent historical contact.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
What cranes and pygmies have to do with Homer I don't understand.

See ref. http://www.pygmies.org/about/pygmy.php

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I preferred if you would focus on a single cave which, you believe,
is explained by a modern name.

Yes, but it is early in the project, still much info. to gather.
Bhimbetke, Bimbache, Masjedbebe appear significant.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Here a joke for Yusuf Gürsey: 36,000 years ago the Chauvet cave was called
la grotte des cinq mille chauve-souris 'cave of the five thousand bat's'
which lingered on in the unconscious mind of the locals who chose monsieur
Chauvet as modern name giver, because of the similarity chauve- and Chauvet

[Daud Deden]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/rock-art-found-namib-desert-reveals-ancient-initiation-rituals-led-by-shamans-1632438

("Shaman" was almost certainly an older woman IMO)
Rock art found in Namib Desert reveals ancient initiation rituals led by shamans
The image of the female kudu would have accompanied young girls to womanhood.
Namib rockshelter initiation site - unnamed

Post by Daud Deden
350ka megafauna bones in Karain Cave, Antalya, Turkey
"Archeologists have discovered the bones of a large 350,000-year-old animal during excavations at the Karain Cave in the southern Turkish province of Antalya. There are 500,000-year-old remnants here. Neanderthal bones of early humans have been unearthed in the cave."
Karain ~ Kara'ite = People of Crimea, "Kara'im'ea", part of Jewish Khazaria which also included the confluence of 4 rivers of Eden: DaNube/DNieper/DNiester/DoNetz and the Caucasus between Black Sea and Caspian.
KaraKahns ~ Turkish Khanites that 1st converted to Islam
Hebrew word for ancestor: Hor'im in Cana'an
Cana'an + Karakahn + Hor'im/Hori'te + Karain + Kara'im

Post by Daud Deden

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Daud Deden
Blowflies swarm, butterflies do so rarely, although they did at Apalura, at a river shallow beach under a sunlit opening in the rainforest near Tore's cave, per Duffy.
400ka zigzaged freshwater shell at Java.
Cranes & Pygmies battled per Homer.

There is a mountain valley in Crete famous for millions of swarming
butterflies, and a place in America where monarchs gather by millions,
also swarming, coming from everywhere.

Yes. Mexico, a forested mountain valley.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Is that freshwater shell at Java decorated by a human hand?

Claimed a Homo erectus "Java Man", although I'm wary of the early date claim. Zigzag etching is common much later in Africa, !hxaro ostrich eggshell canteens 60ka, Tsuringa oyster shell 40ka to recent historical contact.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
What cranes and pygmies have to do with Homer I don't understand.

See ref. http://www.pygmies.org/about/pygmy.php

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I preferred if you would focus on a single cave which, you believe,
is explained by a modern name.

Yes, but it is early in the project, still much info. to gather.
Bhimbetke, Bimbache, Masjedbebe appear significant.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Here a joke for Yusuf Gürsey: 36,000 years ago the Chauvet cave was called
la grotte des cinq mille chauve-souris 'cave of the five thousand bat's'
which lingered on in the unconscious mind of the locals who chose monsieur
Chauvet as modern name giver, because of the similarity chauve- and Chauvet

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Qaraim is a Hebrew word for "readers" describing the sect of non Talmudic Judaism to which the group adheres

[Daud Deden]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Qaraim is a Hebrew word for "readers" describing the sect of non Talmudic Judaism to which the group adheres

That is confusing to me. The Talmud are writings of rabbi conversations/interpretations on the Tanakh? Why were those who did not follow the Talmud called "readers"? Was it because they only read the Tanakh/Torah?

Might Qaraim originally meant those who read the Tanakh but did not subscribe to further priestly/rabbinical interpretations? In a sense, home-schooled?

I thought that black in Turkish was "kara".

No link between kara'ite(Jewish) and karakhan(Muslim)?

https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2017/08/karakhanid-tomb-unearthed-in-kyrgyzstan.html#PHLZ8YtvZLguA6Bu.99

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Daud Deden
Yes, but it is early in the project, still much info. to gather.
Bhimbetke, Bimbache, Masjedbebe appear significant.

Tell us when you can say more.

The only possible coherence between the meaning of a cave and its modern
name I found is Lascaux.

Marie E.P. König identified the horse as sun horse, the bull as moon bull,
and the opposing ibices in the niche at the rear end of the axial gallery
as midwinter emblem (in other parts of the world also antithetic mountain
goats). We can then see the niche as midwinter, the axial gallery as year,
and the glorious rotunda as midsummer - the red mare rising above the ledge
as midsummer sun rising above the horizon, and the proud whilte bull by
her side as a full moon occurring at the same time (ideal start of an
eight-year period in the lunisolar calendar of Lascaux).

The rotunda is then the sky within a hill or mountain (hills were often
called mountains). Magdalenian offers LAS for mountain and CA for sky.
LAS CA Lascaux, hill or mountain of the sky within ??

[Daud Deden]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Daud Deden
Yes, but it is early in the project, still much info. to gather.
Bhimbetke, Bimbache, Masjedbebe appear significant.

Tell us when you can say more.
The only possible coherence between the meaning of a cave and its modern
name I found is Lascaux.
Marie E.P. König identified the horse as sun horse, the bull as moon bull,
and the opposing ibices in the niche at the rear end of the axial gallery
as midwinter emblem (in other parts of the world also antithetic mountain
goats). We can then see the niche as midwinter, the axial gallery as year,
and the glorious rotunda as midsummer - the red mare rising above the ledge
as midsummer sun rising above the horizon, and the proud whilte bull by
her side as a full moon occurring at the same time (ideal start of an
eight-year period in the lunisolar calendar of Lascaux).
The rotunda is then the sky within a hill or mountain (hills were often
called mountains). Magdalenian offers LAS for mountain and CA for sky.
LAS CA Lascaux, hill or mountain of the sky within ??

***@Magdalenian: mountain/hill
***@Tigrinha/Amarigh: mountain/hill
***@Mbuti: dome hut, breast, mound
***@Africaans: steep-sided hillock
***@Uighur: mountain/hill
***@Hebrew: breath(belly full of air)
***@Hebrew: swell (bell, belly)

Originally human ancestors avoided rainforest caves (cf. Pygmies), then used wind-blocking rockshelters in temperate semi-arid zones while their shelters evolved for colder/hotter/windier climes(thick thatch, skins, canvas, bark).

The bull horns = aka uru@!Xam: month of the crescent moon when horns point up, linked to aquarius (water bearing month = canteen eggshell in netbag) & aquarium

***@Chinese: mare, mother

[Daud Deden]

Kuumbi Cave, Zanzibar Island (off-coast EAfr)

"The earliest introduction of domestic chickens and black rats from Asia to the east coast of Africa came via maritime routes between the 7th and 8th centuries AD" https://phys.org/news/2017-08-early-indian-ocean-routes-chicken.html

"Archaeologists have been debating the timing, mechanisms and social contexts of the arrival of Asian plants and animals to eastern Africa for a long time," explains Dr. Boivin, senior author of the study. The competing models are, on the one hand, a very early arrival of Asian species starting around 3000 BC as suggested by some previous studies, and on the other hand, a more modest, mid-first millennium AD arrival in connection with the archaeologically-confirmed maritime trade routes"

"Excavations in Kuumbi Cave, Zanzibar, Tanzania. Avian remains recovered at this site that were originally identified morphologically as domestic chicken were proven to in fact be native guinea fowl when analyzed with ZooMS, illustrating the benefits of using multiple types of analysis"
- - -

Kuumbi - On the Rwenzori Mountains of the Moon, Uganda, Kumbuti is spoken by Pygmoid peoples presumably related to the BaMbuti Pygmies of the Congo rainforest. Ku-uumbi might mean "cave - womb?". (***@Malay:cave)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwenzori_Mountains
- - -

Post by Daud Deden

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Daud Deden
Yes, but it is early in the project, still much info. to gather.
Bhimbetke, Bimbache, Masjedbebe appear significant.

Tell us when you can say more.
The only possible coherence between the meaning of a cave and its modern
name I found is Lascaux.
Marie E.P. König identified the horse as sun horse, the bull as moon bull,
and the opposing ibices in the niche at the rear end of the axial gallery
as midwinter emblem (in other parts of the world also antithetic mountain
goats). We can then see the niche as midwinter, the axial gallery as year,
and the glorious rotunda as midsummer - the red mare rising above the ledge
as midsummer sun rising above the horizon, and the proud whilte bull by
her side as a full moon occurring at the same time (ideal start of an
eight-year period in the lunisolar calendar of Lascaux).
The rotunda is then the sky within a hill or mountain (hills were often
called mountains). Magdalenian offers LAS for mountain and CA for sky.
LAS CA Lascaux, hill or mountain of the sky within ??

Originally human ancestors avoided rainforest caves (cf. Pygmies), then used wind-blocking rockshelters in temperate semi-arid zones while their shelters evolved for colder/hotter/windier climes(thick thatch, skins, canvas, bark).

[Daud Deden]

horse(ma.re=ma.ma, st.ali.on/stal.lion) & li.on(***@Heb) & ridgeback dog (***@KhoiSan) share the dorsal ra.diating mane/ruff/ridge as does the zeb.ra.
Sun-shine-sky between mountasins = infant's head (***@Hebrew: son; ***@Hebrew:head; ***@Arabic:hair) between mounds(***@Tigrinha:hill)/breasts.

Xyuambuatluaxyua sieve.son.lact
Did Lascaux cave have a trickling/suckling spring nearby or within?
- - -

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Daud Deden
Xyuambuatluaxyua sieve.son.lact
Did Lascaux cave have a trickling/suckling spring nearby or within?
- - -

The geology of the karstic cave (limestone clay sand) is complex. Heavy
rainfall causes "microsprings" whereupon the water partly evaporates
and for the other part runs off "in stream channels, or into the ground
as ground water."

The cave was never inhabited. In my opinion it served for teaching aspiring
shamans and tribal leaders who came from near and far and very far, from
the Guyenne (birdman) and the French Alps (bison) and the Pyrenées (bird
on a pole) that formed a proto-society maintained by wandering arch shamans
and shamanesses (represented by megaceroi).

My interpretation of the cave reveals a triple polarity along three walking
ways. 1) From the rotunda to the niche at the rear end of the axial gallery:
midsummer and midwinter. 2) From the rotunda to the chamber of the felines:
life and death. 3) From the rotunda to the shaft: beginning and end of
a tribal leader's career, and the promise of a second life in the heavenly
beyond (Summer Triangle Deneb Vega Atair) for worthy ones.

Now the birdman in the shaft can be read as river map of the Guyenne,
his head and eye marking the region of Bordeaux, his beak the Gironde,
his arms and legs the main rivers, and his penis the River Vézère
with Lascaux Loading Image...

What made you ask your question? If you give me more information I can
give you a more specific answer.

The menhir site at Yverdon-Clendy in western Switzerland comprises a midsummer
corridor, by then leading into the lake, pointing toward the midsummer sun
rising from the middle of the lake, suggesting a midsummer festival with
ritual baths invoking fertility. A child conceived by midsummer was protected
from the harsh winter in the womb of the mother, and born next spring (which
is thematized by the menhirs at Yverdon-Clendy, a lovely group of 'mother'
and 'father' and 'child' marking March 21, while the midsummer menhir marks
June 21). Maybe there was also a midsummer love-in on the banks of the
Vézère, on the bend now occupied by Montagnac, one kilometer from the cave?
Midsummer festivals or love-ins with ritual baths invoking fertility might
have been common in the ancient world.

[Daud Deden]

Karstic Lebbo of Borneo

http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com/2017/08/who-are-lebbo-people-of-borneo.html?m=1

Lebbo Pygmies ~ Mbo(Oldest Y DNA tribe living in Cameroon; ~ ***@Balinese: mother, ~
Ebu (ancestors), link to Madagascar.
- - -

Your interpretations seem speculative, is there much linguistic support for them or is largely visually drawn?

[Daud Deden]

Addm.

Gua Beloyot = cave beloyot(?) ~ belay/bear-ferry-carry 35ka wall paintings

Note: ***@Lebbo: story/set ori/basket(sentences) of clan history, cf Mbuti Pygmies, Booti cave NW Austl isle).

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Daud Deden
Your interpretations seem speculative, is there much linguistic support for them or is largely visually drawn?

Cael de Guichen in an article on Lascaux: Archaeology is not an exact science
but a speculative one, a science of imagination ... Goethe attested the artist
an exact sensual phantasy. Which is also required in reading visual language,
the legacy of our ancient forebears.

What I told you are results of half a century of studies and decades of work
rendered in th brfst frm pssbl. No textbook matter. New ideas and insights.
You don't have to believe me, nevertheless you might keep two points in mind

1) the caves I interpreted are concerned with life, the cycles of life and
nature, and the chance of a second life in a heavenly beyond for worthy souls

2) midsummer festivals with ritual baths imploring fertility might have been
common in the ancient world.

I can't repeat all I wrote in years, but I answer specific questions posed
by readers with a serious interest.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Daud Deden
Your interpretations seem speculative, is there much linguistic support for them or is largely visually drawn?

Cael de Guichen in an article on Lascaux: Archaeology is not an exact science
but a speculative one, a science of imagination ... Goethe

This sentence plus one word should make it clear to the newcomers that Franz is not to be relied on
for any information whatsoever.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Cael de Guichen in an article on Lascaux: Archaeology is not an exact science
but a speculative one, a science of imagination ... Goethe attested the artist
an exact sensual phantasy. Which is also required in reading visual language,
the legacy of our ancient forebears.
What I told you are results of half a century of studies and decades of work
rendered in th brfst frm pssbl. No textbook matter. New ideas and insights.
You don't have to believe me, nevertheless you might keep two points in mind
1) the caves I interpreted are concerned with life, the cycles of life and
nature, and the chance of a second life in a heavenly beyond for worthy souls
2) midsummer festivals with ritual baths imploring fertility might have been
common in the ancient world.
I can't repeat all I wrote in years, but I answer specific questions posed
by readers with a serious interest.

Newcomers, don't read my messages, instead believe what Peter T. Daniels
is preaching and teaching: visual language does not exist.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I can't repeat all I wrote in years,

Yet you do so, over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
but I answer specific questions posed
by readers with a serious interest.

No one has "serious interest."

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Newcomers, don't read my messages, instead believe what Peter T. Daniels
is preaching and teaching: visual language does not exist.

What does "language" mean to you?

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Yet you do so, over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

I am working here, developing my ideas and insights further, and making them
more readable. Your questions, especially, tell me that you remeber nothing
of what I ever said, and thus motivate me to go on, for example here, in
a lesson on visual language.

The original entrance to the Lascaux cave in the shape of the left eye socket
goes on the strange mixed animal running behind the red mare rising above
the ledge, midsummer sun horse rising above the horizon. The mixed animal
has the bearded head of a man, lances growing as horns out of his forehead;
the mottled hide of a feline; the hind body of a bull; and the swollen belly
of a pregnant mare. This can be read as advice for aspiring tribal leaders:
make a wise use of your weapons; be patient as a lion and then act in a
decided manner; be strong as a bull; and care for your own like a mare for
her foal ...

You can say that you are not interested in visual language, which is okay;
but saying that visual language does not exist is turning a deficit (your
lack of understanding, your making fun of Goethe's "exact sensual phantasy"
and Cael de Guichen's "science of imagination") into a doctrine.

[Daud Deden]

Thanks, I've too busy to even read lately. Just a note: Apparently,
'Xya' rooted both SAI & CA, date ~ before 60ka, supplementing the earlier 'Nja'.

Question for all: Does anyone agree with me that these 2 words are cognate?
Golomt (Mongol): smokehole, Calumet(N.D.L.akota Siouxan, including Mandan): smokehole.

DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks, I've too busy to even read lately. Just a note: Apparently,
'Xya' rooted both SAI & CA, date ~ before 60ka, supplementing the earlier 'Nja'.
Question for all: Does anyone agree with me that these 2 words are cognate?

No.And they probably are not.

Post by Daud Deden
Golomt (Mongol): smokehole, Calumet(N.D.L.akota Siouxan, including Mandan): smokehole.
DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

[Daud Deden]

We disagree on that then, thanks.

Here is one more, a group which I would consider cognate, at least in my own understanding (which might differ from formal linguistic definition).

Kapok, Kapas(Malay)= cotton tree, fluffy white seed pods, used in orange life jackets

Ibogi(Pirahã, Amazon) milk [per D. Everett]

Kaoáíbógí(Pirahã, Amazon)= spirit-guide-theatrical, white-skin

kabuki(Japan)= traditional theatre, white-face cosmetics

Spooky, Boo!, Bogey(man), Boogy(man)(English)= typically associated with ghostly white

Melug(PIE) milk, typically white

I speculate these also share same root: comic, karmic, cosmic; and that the common root for milk OOA was approx. *mbualgi or so.

I welcome any thoughts shared on this matter.
---
DD

[e***@gmail.com]

Post by Daud Deden
We disagree on that then, thanks.
Here is one more, a group which I would consider cognate, at least in my own understanding (which might differ from formal linguistic definition).

The formal linguistic definition is that the two words have a common
ancestor in the language ancestral to the languages in which they
occur. You can find that in any dictionary. But we don't know what your
understanding it.

Post by Daud Deden
Kapok, Kapas(Malay)= cotton tree, fluffy white seed pods, used in orange life jackets
Ibogi(Pirahã, Amazon) milk [per D. Everett]
Kaoáíbógí(Pirahã, Amazon)= spirit-guide-theatrical, white-skin
kabuki(Japan)= traditional theatre, white-face cosmetics
Spooky, Boo!, Bogey(man), Boogy(man)(English)= typically associated with ghostly white
Melug(PIE) milk, typically white
I speculate these also share same root: comic, karmic, cosmic; and that the common root for milk OOA was approx. *mbualgi or so.
I welcome any thoughts shared on this matter.
---
DD

[Daud Deden]

"You can find that in any dictionary."

You can find the words I wrote in dictionaries. You can not find the other terms associated with it. Which is why I wrote it here, because I see an ancient association between them all, as noted, smokey/ashy-milky-white.

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
We disagree on that then, thanks.
Here is one more, a group which I would consider cognate, at least in my own understanding (which might differ from formal linguistic definition).

The formal linguistic definition is that the two words have a common
ancestor in the language ancestral to the languages in which they
occur. You can find that in any dictionary. But we don't know what your
understanding it.

Post by Daud Deden
Kapok, Kapas(Malay)= cotton tree, fluffy white seed pods, used in orange life jackets
Ibogi(Pirahã, Amazon) milk [per D. Everett]
Kaoáíbógí(Pirahã, Amazon)= spirit-guide-theatrical, white-skin
kabuki(Japan)= traditional theatre, white-face cosmetics
Spooky, Boo!, Bogey(man), Boogy(man)(English)= typically associated with ghostly white
Melug(PIE) milk, typically white
I speculate these also share same root: comic, karmic, cosmic; and that the common root for milk OOA was approx. *mbualgi or so.
I welcome any thoughts shared on this matter.
---
DD

[b***@ihug.co.nz]

Post by Daud Deden
"You can find that in any dictionary."
You can find the words I wrote in dictionaries. You can not find the other terms associated with it. Which is why I wrote it here, because I see an ancient association between them all, as noted, smokey/ashy-milky-white.

OK, so what you mean by "cognate" is that you "see an ancient association
between them". And the thoughts you would welcome would be whether or not
we "see an ancient association"?

Well, I can see the association, since you've spelled it out. There are
roughly similar syllables recurring, and you can connect them all via
those "smokey/ashy-milky-white" meanings. But as I pointed out, those
meanings are sometimes merely associational (for you) rather than part
of the essential meaning of the word. So the whole does not suggest
anything ancient to me, or any connection among these languages. It's
a word-game you like to play.

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
We disagree on that then, thanks.
Here is one more, a group which I would consider cognate, at least in my own understanding (which might differ from formal linguistic definition).

The formal linguistic definition is that the two words have a common
ancestor in the language ancestral to the languages in which they
occur. You can find that in any dictionary. But we don't know what your
understanding it.

Post by Daud Deden
Kapok, Kapas(Malay)= cotton tree, fluffy white seed pods, used in orange life jackets
Ibogi(Pirahã, Amazon) milk [per D. Everett]
Kaoáíbógí(Pirahã, Amazon)= spirit-guide-theatrical, white-skin
kabuki(Japan)= traditional theatre, white-face cosmetics
Spooky, Boo!, Bogey(man), Boogy(man)(English)= typically associated with ghostly white
Melug(PIE) milk, typically white
I speculate these also share same root: comic, karmic, cosmic; and that the common root for milk OOA was approx. *mbualgi or so.
I welcome any thoughts shared on this matter.
---
DD

[Daud Deden]

I guess we disagree. Thanks.

[Alan Smaill]

Post by Daud Deden
"You can find that in any dictionary."
You can find the words I wrote in dictionaries. You can not find the
other terms associated with it. Which is why I wrote it here, because
I see an ancient association between them all, as noted,
smokey/ashy-milky-white.

Then you have missed chalumeau, used in English for the lower register
of the clarinet, and for the old folk instrument.

Which suggests a different affiliation.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Alan Smaill

Post by Daud Deden
"You can find that in any dictionary."
You can find the words I wrote in dictionaries. You can not find the
other terms associated with it. Which is why I wrote it here, because
I see an ancient association between them all, as noted,
smokey/ashy-milky-white.

Then you have missed chalumeau, used in English for the lower register
of the clarinet, and for the old folk instrument.

Also the name of an organ stop of similar timbre.

Post by Alan Smaill
Which suggests a different affiliation.

[Daud Deden]

Post by Alan Smaill

Post by Daud Deden
"You can find that in any dictionary."
You can find the words I wrote in dictionaries. You can not find the
other terms associated with it. Which is why I wrote it here, because
I see an ancient association between them all, as noted,
smokey/ashy-milky-white.

Then you have missed chalumeau, used in English for the lower register
of the clarinet, and for the old folk instrument.
Which suggests a different affiliation.
--
Alan Smaill

Thanks. I didn't miss it, since I didn't search for it, but great news.

It fits perfectly along with flute as a tube used to ignite a fire (smoke first, flame second). A hollow tube is a smokehole when used to control smoke.

[Daud Deden]

Flute <= flaut <= fl.ahu.t
Ahu (Avesti) spirit
Abu (Malay) ash
C.alu.met
K.abu.ki
M.elu.g (milk before smoke)
..ibo.gi (idem)
Bilk = milk (verb)
Bilge = milky (adject)

etc.

[b***@ihug.co.nz]

Post by Daud Deden
Flute <= flaut <= fl.ahu.t
Ahu (Avesti) spirit
Abu (Malay) ash
C.alu.met
K.abu.ki
M.elu.g (milk before smoke)
..ibo.gi (idem)
Bilk = milk (verb)
Bilge = milky (adject)
etc.

Yes, I don't doubt you could go on in this fashion indefinitely.
I'd point out that "bilge" has nothing to do with whiteness or
milk -- it's a part of a ship.
But I suspect that's as irrelevant to your game as my earlier notes.

[Daud Deden]

Bilge water is cloudy (cf milky) & smelly (cf smolder) not clean. Bilge preceded ship, as milk preceded smoke evolutionarily.

[b***@ihug.co.nz]

Post by Daud Deden
Bilge water is cloudy (cf milky)

It is most likely not transparent, but that does not make it "milky".

Post by Daud Deden
& smelly (cf smolder) not clean.

and not white

Post by Daud Deden
Bilge preceded ship, as milk preceded smoke evolutionarily.

What on earth do you mean by this?

[Daud Deden]

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden
Bilge water is cloudy (cf milky)

It is most likely not transparent, but that does not make it "milky".

More so than otherwise, call it murky, same root. Are you just being pedantic?

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden
& smelly (cf smolder) not clean.

and not white

Wrong concept here.

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden
Bilge preceded ship, as milk preceded smoke evolutionarily.

What on earth do you mean by this?

Think about it. Milk existed before ships and controlled fire/smoke.

[b***@ihug.co.nz]

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden
Bilge water is cloudy (cf milky)

It is most likely not transparent, but that does not make it "milky".

More so than otherwise, call it murky, same root.

No, not the same root. And not the same meaning.

Post by Daud Deden
Are you just being pedantic?

I'm just trying to correct your more obvious mistakes.

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden
& smelly (cf smolder) not clean.

and not white

Wrong concept here.

Which concept is wrong and why?

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden
Bilge preceded ship, as milk preceded smoke evolutionarily.

What on earth do you mean by this?

Think about it. Milk existed before ships and controlled fire/smoke.

Yes, milk existed tens of millions of years ago in some early mammalian
ancestor. And that was before ships, we can agree. Smoke existed
even earlier than milk. But now you're saying "controlled fire/smoke".
So that's what you mean by "milk preceded smoke evolutionarily" -- humans
had milk before they learned to use fire. And that was earlier than they
made ships. Now how do you get bilge without ships?

[e***@gmail.com]

Post by Daud Deden
We disagree on that then, thanks.
Here is one more, a group which I would consider cognate, at least in my own understanding (which might differ from formal linguistic definition).
Kapok, Kapas(Malay)= cotton tree, fluffy white seed pods, used in orange life jackets

The Malay word refers to the tree and its product, the fluff. Nothing to do with whiteness

Post by Daud Deden
Ibogi(Pirahã, Amazon) milk [per D. Everett]
Kaoáíbógí(Pirahã, Amazon)= spirit-guide-theatrical, white-skin
kabuki(Japan)= traditional theatre, white-face cosmetics

from ka 'song', bu 'dance', ki 'skill, art'

Post by Daud Deden
Spooky, Boo!, Bogey(man), Boogy(man)(English)= typically associated with ghostly white

actually, "bogey(man) doesn't normally refer a ghost, but to the devil or other scary imaginary being, not necessarily white at all

Post by Daud Deden
Melug(PIE) milk, typically white
I speculate these also share same root: comic, karmic, osmic;

The -ic part is not just the same root, but the same suffix (originally
Greek). The roots to which it's attached are:
Greek ko:mos 'merrymaking, revel'
Sanskrit karma 'action, fate'
Greek kosmos 'order, the world'

and that the common root for milk OOA was approx. *mbualgi or so.

Apparently derived by trying to squish all your "bog/pok" words together
with IE *melg. Well, it's a change from Franz's methods, but no more
convincing.

Post by Daud Deden
I welcome any thoughts shared on this matter.
---
DD

[Franz Gnaedinger]

(...) Well, it's a change from Franz's methods, but no more
convincing.

My method relies on thorough studies of cave art and rock art and mobile art.
In early 2005 I reconstructed an amazing lunisolar calendar from symbols and
ideograms in the Lascaux cave, looked out for a matching language, found none
in literature but remembered the alternative approach to the language of the
Ice Age by Richard Fester, professor of geology with friends in linguistic
departments who helped him collect words. Fester proposed five ur-words, among
them ACQ for water, which I modified to AC for an expanse of land with water,
inverse CA for sky.

By and by I found four laws of Magdalenian

1) inverse forms have related meanings
2) permutations yield words around the same meme
3) D-words have comparative forms in S-words
4) important words can have lateral associations

Using my laws I mined words in the spring of 2005, many more in the spring
of 2006, in all a good four hundred words. Beauty and power of Magdalenian
came with compounds. I use ever the same words from 2005/6 for my compounds
and in shedding light on early times.

My alternative approach to the lingua franca of shamans and shamanesses in
the last Ice Age leads further, I don't force it, ideas come flying and
alight on the window sill of my humble scriptorium. I feel obliged to my
talent (whether big or small, Matthew 25 in the Bible) and go on with my work.

[Daud Deden]

Thanks Elizabeth. I'll return in a bit, must be off.

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
We disagree on that then, thanks.
Here is one more, a group which I would consider cognate, at least in my own understanding (which might differ from formal linguistic definition).
Kapok, Kapas(Malay)= cotton tree, fluffy white seed pods, used in orange life jackets

The Malay word refers to the tree and its product, the fluff. Nothing to do with whiteness

Post by Daud Deden
Ibogi(Pirahã, Amazon) milk [per D. Everett]
Kaoáíbógí(Pirahã, Amazon)= spirit-guide-theatrical, white-skin
kabuki(Japan)= traditional theatre, white-face cosmetics

from ka 'song', bu 'dance', ki 'skill, art'

Post by Daud Deden
Spooky, Boo!, Bogey(man), Boogy(man)(English)= typically associated with ghostly white

actually, "bogey(man) doesn't normally refer a ghost, but to the devil or other scary imaginary being, not necessarily white at all

Post by Daud Deden
Melug(PIE) milk, typically white
I speculate these also share same root: comic, karmic, osmic;

The -ic part is not just the same root, but the same suffix (originally
Greek ko:mos 'merrymaking, revel'
Sanskrit karma 'action, fate'
Greek kosmos 'order, the world'
and that the common root for milk OOA was approx. *mbualgi or so.
Apparently derived by trying to squish all your "bog/pok" words together
with IE *melg. Well, it's a change from Franz's methods, but no more
convincing.

Post by Daud Deden
I welcome any thoughts shared on this matter.
---
DD

[Daud Deden]

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
We disagree on that then, thanks.
Here is one more, a group which I would consider cognate, at least in my own understanding (which might differ from formal linguistic definition).
Kapok, Kapas(Malay)= cotton tree, fluffy white seed pods, used in orange life jackets

The Malay word refers to the tree and its product, the fluff. Nothing to do with whiteness

The fluff is white, like snow.

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Ibogi(Pirahã, Amazon) milk [per D. Everett]
Kaoáíbógí(Pirahã, Amazon)= spirit-guide-theatrical, white-skin
kabuki(Japan)= traditional theatre, white-face cosmetics

from ka 'song', bu 'dance', ki 'skill, art'

Perhaps theatrical spiritual, I speculate it also as k.abu.ki, with ki = (smo)key, like hinoki (Japanese) cedar (fragrant smoke).

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Spooky, Boo!, Bogey(man), Boogy(man)(English)= typically associated with ghostly white

actually, "bogey(man) doesn't normally refer a ghost, but to the devil or other scary imaginary being, not necessarily white at all

In the past I think whiteness of face or skin or hair (cf windigo of Potawatomi)
was a signature feature.

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Melug(PIE) milk, typically white
I speculate these also share same root: comic, karmic, osmic;

The -ic part is not just the same root, but the same suffix (originally
Greek ko:mos 'merrymaking, revel'
Sanskrit karma 'action, fate'
Greek kosmos 'order, the world'
and that the common root for milk OOA was approx. *mbualgi or so.
Apparently derived by trying to squish all your "bog/pok" words together
with IE *melg. Well, it's a change from Franz's methods, but no more
convincing.

Fuse & diffuse.

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
I welcome any thoughts shared on this matter.
---
DD

[b***@ihug.co.nz]

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
We disagree on that then, thanks.
Here is one more, a group which I would consider cognate, at least in my own understanding (which might differ from formal linguistic definition).
Kapok, Kapas(Malay)= cotton tree, fluffy white seed pods, used in orange life jackets

The Malay word refers to the tree and its product, the fluff. Nothing to do with whiteness

The fluff is white, like snow.

Wikipedia describes it as "yellowish". By the time it gets to a shop
wherever you are, it's probably been bleached.

My point was that the tree's name makes no allusion to "whiteness". That
connection is entirely in your mind.

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Ibogi(Pirahã, Amazon) milk [per D. Everett]
Kaoáíbógí(Pirahã, Amazon)= spirit-guide-theatrical, white-skin
kabuki(Japan)= traditional theatre, white-face cosmetics

from ka 'song', bu 'dance', ki 'skill, art'

Perhaps theatrical spiritual, I speculate it also as k.abu.ki, with ki = (smo)key, like hinoki (Japanese) cedar (fragrant smoke).

The ki in the name of the tree (a cypress, actually) is most likely
ki "tree".

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Spooky, Boo!, Bogey(man), Boogy(man)(English)= typically associated with ghostly white

actually, "bogey(man) doesn't normally refer a ghost, but to the devil or other scary imaginary being, not necessarily white at all

In the past I think whiteness of face or skin or hair (cf windigo of Potawatomi) was a signature feature.

Why do you think this?

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Melug(PIE) milk, typically white
I speculate these also share same root: comic, karmic, osmic;

The -ic part is not just the same root, but the same suffix (originally
Greek ko:mos 'merrymaking, revel'
Sanskrit karma 'action, fate'
Greek kosmos 'order, the world'
and that the common root for milk OOA was approx. *mbualgi or so.
Apparently derived by trying to squish all your "bog/pok" words together
with IE *melg. Well, it's a change from Franz's methods, but no more
convincing.

Fuse & diffuse.

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
I welcome any thoughts shared on this matter.
---
DD

[Daud Deden]

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
We disagree on that then, thanks.
Here is one more, a group which I would consider cognate, at least in my own understanding (which might differ from formal linguistic definition).
Kapok, Kapas(Malay)= cotton tree, fluffy white seed pods, used in orange life jackets

The Malay word refers to the tree and its product, the fluff. Nothing to do with whiteness

The fluff is white, like snow.

Wikipedia describes it as "yellowish".

See the video, 1:35, white not yellow:

"Pulau Kapas means Cotton Island, due to its soft white beaches"

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
By the time it gets to a shop
wherever you are, it's probably been bleached.

Probably not.

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
My point was that the tree's name makes no allusion to "whiteness". That
connection is entirely in your mind.

Wrong, as shown.

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Ibogi(Pirahã, Amazon) milk [per D. Everett]
Kaoáíbógí(Pirahã, Amazon)= spirit-guide-theatrical, white-skin
kabuki(Japan)= traditional theatre, white-face cosmetics

from ka 'song', bu 'dance', ki 'skill, art'

Perhaps theatrical spiritual, I speculate it also as k.abu.ki, with ki = (smo)key, like hinoki (Japanese) cedar (fragrant smoke).

The ki in the name of the tree (a cypress, actually) is most likely
ki "tree".

Yes, Chamaecyparis obtuse. "One word that springs to mind when describing this arboreal aroma is “clean” – and perhaps it is this quality that makes it important in purification rituals in the Shinto religion."

White smoke is often used to 'purify' ritually, eg. sage. Black smoke isn't.

To purify: Kiyomemasu

http://www.edenbotanicals.com/hinoki-wood.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=1o4&scid=scplp428-6&sc_intid=428-6&gclid=Cj0KCQjw557NBRC9ARIsAHJvVVP4ZY4RQaG0eP-XQf0tKkqGsxSFvJe30UIlxFkWiBmseKBrxHxqOjkaAnnJEALw_wcB

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Spooky, Boo!, Bogey(man), Boogy(man)(English)= typically associated with ghostly white

actually, "bogey(man) doesn't normally refer a ghost, but to the devil or other scary imaginary being, not necessarily white at all

In the past I think whiteness of face or skin or hair (cf windigo of Potawatomi) was a signature feature.

Why do you think this?

Because that is what the pattern shows, as I have already said. Spirit/Spooky/Smokey/Bilge/Milky etc.

Sibyl probably as well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibyl

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Melug(PIE) milk, typically white
I speculate these also share same root: comic, karmic, osmic;

The -ic part is not just the same root, but the same suffix (originally
Greek ko:mos 'merrymaking, revel'
Sanskrit karma 'action, fate'
Greek kosmos 'order, the world'
and that the common root for milk OOA was approx. *mbualgi or so.
Apparently derived by trying to squish all your "bog/pok" words together
with IE *melg. Well, it's a change from Franz's methods, but no more
convincing.

Fuse & diffuse.

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
I welcome any thoughts shared on this matter.
---
DD

[b***@ihug.co.nz]

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
We disagree on that then, thanks.
Here is one more, a group which I would consider cognate, at least in my own understanding (which might differ from formal linguistic definition).
Kapok, Kapas(Malay)= cotton tree, fluffy white seed pods, used in orange life jackets

The Malay word refers to the tree and its product, the fluff. Nothing to do with whiteness

The fluff is white, like snow.

Wikipedia describes it as "yellowish".

See the video, 1:35, white not yellow: http://youtu.be/Qr_QDVx7-Ws

YMMV, I guess. I'd say varying from white to yellowish, based on the images:

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=kapok&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi72ovz2ILWAhWJj5QKHcPgBg4Q_AUICigB&biw=1024&bih=621

Post by Daud Deden
"Pulau Kapas means Cotton Island, due to its soft white beaches"

I guess you can't resist keeping "kapas" around because of its white fluffiness,
but its similarity to the other words in your set is .... -p-?
And it's from Sanskrit anyway, whereas "kapuk" is an Austronesian word.
(I know you don't care = just telling you.)

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
By the time it gets to a shop
wherever you are, it's probably been bleached.

Probably not.

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
My point was that the tree's name makes no allusion to "whiteness". That
connection is entirely in your mind.

Wrong, as shown.

I don't think you understand my point. Tree names like "redbud" or "blackthorn"
make reference to the distinctive colour of some part of the tree. "Kapuk"
is not such a name. No part of "kapuk" is a Malay colour term.

Of course you think it was a colour term 100,000 years ago, or whatever
your date is. But your evidence consists mostly of cases like this, where
you have to imagine that some arbitrary part of the word refers to some
colour you associate (often quite improbably) with the thing. And you seem
to be indifferent to information about the actual etymology of the words.

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Ibogi(Pirahã, Amazon) milk [per D. Everett]
Kaoáíbógí(Pirahã, Amazon)= spirit-guide-theatrical, white-skin
kabuki(Japan)= traditional theatre, white-face cosmetics

from ka 'song', bu 'dance', ki 'skill, art'

Perhaps theatrical spiritual, I speculate it also as k.abu.ki, with ki = (smo)key, like hinoki (Japanese) cedar (fragrant smoke).

The ki in the name of the tree (a cypress, actually) is most likely
ki "tree".

Yes, Chamaecyparis obtuse. "One word that springs to mind when describing this arboreal aroma is “clean” – and perhaps it is this quality that makes it important in purification rituals in the Shinto religion."
White smoke is often used to 'purify' ritually, eg. sage. Black smoke isn't.
To purify: Kiyomemasu

Yes, that's kiyo- 'pure'. Not ki.

Post by Daud Deden
http://www.edenbotanicals.com/hinoki-wood.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=1o4&scid=scplp428-6&sc_intid=428-6&gclid=Cj0KCQjw557NBRC9ARIsAHJvVVP4ZY4RQaG0eP-XQf0tKkqGsxSFvJe30UIlxFkWiBmseKBrxHxqOjkaAnnJEALw_wcB

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Spooky, Boo!, Bogey(man), Boogy(man)(English)= typically associated with ghostly white

actually, "bogey(man) doesn't normally refer a ghost, but to the devil or other scary imaginary being, not necessarily white at all

In the past I think whiteness of face or skin or hair (cf windigo of Potawatomi) was a signature feature.

Why do you think this?

Because that is what the pattern shows, as I have already said. Spirit/Spooky/Smokey/Bilge/Milky etc.

So I guess your "past" would have to be further back than historic pictures
of the devil, or bogey men, which in my experience do not particulary run
to white parts. But then when you're working with 100,000 years this
is not going to trouble you.

You might (or others might) be troubled by the fact that your primary evidence
is already based on the conclusion you wish to reach. But convincing others
does not seem to be important to you.

Post by Daud Deden
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibyl

Probably what?

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Melug(PIE) milk, typically white
I speculate these also share same root: comic, karmic, osmic;

The -ic part is not just the same root, but the same suffix (originally
Greek ko:mos 'merrymaking, revel'
Sanskrit karma 'action, fate'
Greek kosmos 'order, the world'
and that the common root for milk OOA was approx. *mbualgi or so.
Apparently derived by trying to squish all your "bog/pok" words together
with IE *melg. Well, it's a change from Franz's methods, but no more
convincing.

Fuse & diffuse.

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
I welcome any thoughts shared on this matter.
---
DD

[Daud Deden]

(using phone to send)

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden
Bilge water is cloudy (cf milky)

It is most likely not transparent, but that does not make it "milky".

More so than otherwise, call it murky, same root.

No, not the same root. And not the same meaning.

Different "twig-root", same tree root. Neo-etymology vs. paleo-etymology. Murky/milky/smokey/boggy unclear fluid, Bog(Russian) spirit-ghost-god-mother's milk.

Post by Daud Deden
Are you just being pedantic?

I'm just trying to correct your more obvious mistakes.

Thanks, but your corrections aren't based on paleo, which is problematic.

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden
& smelly (cf smolder) not clean.

and not white

Wrong concept here.

Which concept is wrong and why?

You snipped a bit too much, context? Incense may purify air of insects but still dirty the air.

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden
Bilge preceded ship, as milk preceded smoke evolutionarily.

What on earth do you mean by this?

Think about it. Milk existed before ships and controlled fire/smoke.

Yes, milk existed tens of millions of years ago in some early mammalian
ancestor. And that was before ships, we can agree. Smoke existed
even earlier than milk. But now you're saying "controlled fire/smoke".

I've maintained that, eg. smokehole: golomt/calumet, the first peace pipes were blown not sucked, to flare the embowled ember controllably, out of the uncontrollable breeze.

So that's what you mean by "milk preceded smoke evolutionarily" -- humans
had milk before they learned to use fire. And that was earlier than they
made ships. Now how do you get bilge without ships?

Why are ships always female? Because they carry/ferry/bear/berth/birth & they leak/lig/bil.lge ~ pile.liquid ~ bulge/mabul(Hebrew) swell like a (w)umbell.e.

[b***@ihug.co.nz]

Post by Daud Deden
(using phone to send)

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden
Bilge water is cloudy (cf milky)

It is most likely not transparent, but that does not make it "milky".

More so than otherwise, call it murky, same root.

No, not the same root. And not the same meaning.
Different "twig-root", same tree root. Neo-etymology vs. paleo-etymology. Murky/milky/smokey/boggy unclear fluid, Bog(Russian) spirit-ghost-god-mother's milk.

Sounds like "paleo-semantics", too.

Post by Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
Are you just being pedantic?

I'm just trying to correct your more obvious mistakes.
Thanks, but your corrections aren't based on paleo, which is problematic.

The problem is, what is "paleo" based on?

Post by Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden
& smelly (cf smolder) not clean.

and not white

Wrong concept here.

Which concept is wrong and why?
You snipped a bit too much, context? Incense may purify air of insects but still dirty the air.

That's not an answer to my question.

Post by Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden
Bilge preceded ship, as milk preceded smoke evolutionarily.

What on earth do you mean by this?

Think about it. Milk existed before ships and controlled fire/smoke.

Yes, milk existed tens of millions of years ago in some early mammalian
ancestor. And that was before ships, we can agree. Smoke existed
even earlier than milk. But now you're saying "controlled fire/smoke".
I've maintained that, eg. smokehole: golomt/calumet, the first peace pipes were blown not sucked, to flare the embowled ember controllably, out of the uncontrollable breeze.
So that's what you mean by "milk preceded smoke evolutionarily" -- humans
had milk before they learned to use fire. And that was earlier than they
made ships. Now how do you get bilge without ships?
Why are ships always female?

Well, actually, they aren't.

Because they carry/ferry/bear/berth/birth & they leak/lig/bil.lge ~ pile.liquid ~ bulge/mabul(Hebrew) swell like a (w)umbell.e.

So what you meant was that your BUL and LIG, from which you think
"bilge" is formed, go back further than ships? But couldn't someone
(assuming you found someone else interested in playing this game) invent
a SH and IP that would go back just as far?

[Daud Deden]

Well, actually, they aren't.

Examples: ?

Because they carry/ferry/bear/berth/birth & they leak/lig/bil.lge ~ pile.liquid ~ bulge/mabul(Hebrew) swell like a (w)umbell.e.

So what you meant was that your BUL and LIG, from which you think
"bilge" is formed, go back further than ships? But couldn't someone
(assuming you found someone else interested in playing this game) invent
a SH and IP that would go back just as far?

BUL? Mabul = swell. Lg/lig/leak (Sunlight radiates like mother's milk).
Ship ~ Xyambuatl~ high board = (deck) above hull.

[b***@ihug.co.nz]

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Well, actually, they aren't.
Examples: ?

Well, let's see. German Schiff is neuter; Russian korabl' is masculine
and sudno is neuter. And in Polynesian languages, neither nouns nor
pronouns have gender, so it would hard to say they are either.

But perhaps you're claiming all these people _think_ of ships as female/feminine? In that case I think it would be up to you to provide
some evidence, and preferably not merely your own impressions.

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Because they carry/ferry/bear/berth/birth & they leak/lig/bil.lge ~ pile.liquid ~ bulge/mabul(Hebrew) swell like a (w)umbell.e.
So what you meant was that your BUL and LIG, from which you think
"bilge" is formed, go back further than ships? But couldn't someone
(assuming you found someone else interested in playing this game) invent
a SH and IP that would go back just as far?
BUL? Mabul = swell. Lg/lig/leak (Sunlight radiates like mother's milk).
Ship ~ Xyambuatl~ high board = (deck) above hull.

Again this is not intelligible as an answer to my question.

[Daud Deden]

Isn't a maiden masculine in German? (Mark Twain) The English word ship is typically referred as she, that is what I was commenting on.
Korabl' (sounds close to coracle) has -bl/bulk-bilge. If sudno is a Russian word meaning ship, it may link to the DN rivers Danube-Dnieper-Dniester-Donetz, the confluence of the 4 rivers of Eden, in my deluge hypothesis, something of interest to me.

I don't know what all those people think, nor if they know the root of their word for ship. The English word ship~cup-kuphos-qupha-scoop-scow derives from roundshield originally.

"So what you meant was that your BUL and LIG, from which you think "bilge" is formed, go back further than ships? "

You did not approve of my answer. I did not write BUL and LIG as roots, they are parts of ibogi-melug-milk.


DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Daud Deden
Isn't a maiden masculine in German?

No. "Maedchen" is a 'little' (-chen) 'maid' (Magd), and -chen is neuter.

[Daud Deden]

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
We disagree on that then, thanks.
Here is one more, a group which I would consider cognate, at least in my own understanding (which might differ from formal linguistic definition).
Kapok, Kapas(Malay)= cotton tree, fluffy white seed pods, used in orange life jackets

The Malay word refers to the tree and its product, the fluff. Nothing to do with whiteness

The fluff is white, like snow.

Wikipedia describes it as "yellowish".

See the video, 1:35, white not yellow: http://youtu.be/Qr_QDVx7-Ws

YMMV, I guess.
Please debreviate YMMV.

say varying from white to yellowish, based on the images:

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=kapok&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi72ovz2ILWAhWJj5QKHcPgBg4Q_AUICigB&biw=1024&bih=621

Post by Daud Deden
"Pulau Kapas means Cotton Island, due to its soft white beaches"

I guess you can't resist keeping "kapas" around

I lived there, I speak Malay. White cottony/snowy/ downy/smokey/milky.. co-ton~ tono(Mongol)=smoke-ring at the top of a yurt ~ kolo(Polish) wheel

of its white fluffiness,
but its similarity to the other words in your set is .... -p-?
And it's from Sanskrit anyway, whereas "kapuk" is an Austronesian word.
(I know you don't care = just telling you.)

Kapas+kapok+kapuk=> xua.mbuax = sieve.moss/through-mom/monthly-ash for birthing/bleeding/burning(duff-huffpuff)~ Bo.mbax genus. Sanskrit & Austronesian are Neo-dialects to me.

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
By the time it gets to a shop
wherever you are, it's probably been bleached.

Probably not.

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
My point was that the tree's name makes no allusion to "whiteness". That
connection is entirely in your mind.

Wrong, as shown.

I don't think you understand my point. Tree names like "redbud" or "blackthorn"
make reference to the distinctive colour of some part of the tree. "Kapuk"
is not such a name. No part of "kapuk" is a Malay colour term.

Ka ~ xya/sky ~ gow(Chin) hemp
Putih (Malay) white
Tabu/Kapu(Austn) haunt/forbid
Hantu(Malay) haunted, ghostly
Ansu(PIE) spirit, ghostly-godly
Absu(Sem) whitewater sprite

you think it was a colour term 100,000 years ago, or whatever
your date is.

There were no color terms then.


But your evidence consists mostly of cases like this, where
you have to imagine that some arbitrary part of the word refers to some
colour you associate (often quite improbably) with the thing. And you seem
to be indifferent to information about the actual etymology of the words.

You misapply neo-terms with paleo-terms, everyone does. Color words did not exist long ago, nor did specific numbers or names or pronouns, these evolved later.

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Ibogi(Pirahã, Amazon) milk [per D. Everett]
Kaoáíbógí(Pirahã, Amazon)= spirit-guide-theatrical, white-skin
kabuki(Japan)= traditional theatre, white-face cosmetics

from ka 'song', bu 'dance', ki 'skill, art'

Perhaps theatrical spiritual, I speculate it also as k.abu.ki, with ki = (smo)key, like hinoki (Japanese) cedar (fragrant smoke).

The ki in the name of the tree (a cypress, actually) is most likely
ki "tree".

Yes, Chamaecyparis obtuse. "One word that springs to mind when describing this arboreal aroma is “clean” – and perhaps it is this quality that makes it important in purification rituals in the Shinto religion."
White smoke is often used to 'purify' ritually, eg. sage. Black smoke isn't.
To purify: Kiyomemasu

Yes, that's kiyo- 'pure'. Not ki.

Hinokiyomemasu-> hinoki abbrev.
I said cedar as a generalization, it is a false cypress.

Post by Daud Deden
http://www.edenbotanicals.com/hinoki-wood.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=1o4&scid=scplp428-6&sc_intid=428-6&gclid=Cj0KCQjw557NBRC9ARIsAHJvVVP4ZY4RQaG0eP-XQf0tKkqGsxSFvJe30UIlxFkWiBmseKBrxHxqOjkaAnnJEALw_wcB

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Spooky, Boo!, Bogey(man), Boogy(man)(English)= typically associated with ghostly white

actually, "bogey(man) doesn't normally refer a ghost, but to the devil or other scary imaginary being, not necessarily white at all

In the past I think whiteness of face or skin or hair (cf windigo of Potawatomi) was a signature feature.

Why do you think this?

Because that is what the pattern shows, as I have already said. Spirit/Spooky/Smokey/Bilge/Milky etc.

So I guess your "past" would have to be further back than historic pictures
of the devil, or bogey men, which in my experience do not particulary run
to white parts.

Devil isn't bogey/boogy, different.
Demon is disease, Satan is adversary, Lucifer is light bearer.

then when you're working with 100,000 years this
is not going to trouble you.

You might (or others might) be troubled by the fact that your primary evidence
is already based on the conclusion you wish to reach.

That assessment seems to describe your own opinion.

But convincing others
does not seem to be important to you.

Post by Daud Deden
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibyl

Probably what?

Same lineage, ~ shy+bilk, spirit, golomt-omen, delphi(womb) ..

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Melug(PIE) milk, typically white
I speculate these also share same root: comic, karmic, osmic;

The -ic part is not just the same root, but the same suffix (originally
Greek ko:mos 'merrymaking, revel'
Sanskrit karma 'action, fate'
Greek kosmos 'order, the world'
and that the common root for milk OOA was approx. *mbualgi or so.
Apparently derived by trying to squish all your "bog/pok" words together
with IE *melg. Well, it's a change from Franz's methods, but no more
convincing.

Fuse & diffuse.

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
I welcome any thoughts shared on this matter.
---
DD

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Daud Deden
You misapply neo-terms with paleo-terms, everyone does. Color words did not exist long ago, nor did specific numbers or names or pronouns, these evolved later.

OMG, it's "Magdalenian" on steroids.

[Daud Deden]

In Pirahã language, the 'color word' for black is not a word, but a descriptive phrase, "dirty blood", per Linguist, D. Everett.
Same is true of all their colors. I consider that highly indicative of all human language during paleolithic Hunting & Gathering in small groups.

Q. What is the link between story and storage?

A. Both refer to oral(word, food) items preserved in a basket/set.

[Daud Deden]

Fire Control Evolution

Fire:
api(Malay) fire piston
ape(Ainu) fire
apo(India-) fire
apa(Mbuti) ember/campfire
pahhur(Hittite) fire
ur(Hebrew) fire
*Apahuir fire
afire(English) firer/pharaoh?
agni(Hindu) fire spirit?
guni(Java-Bali) fire
buni(Bari) fire
guni(Bali-Javanese) fire
fumio/fumar(Spanish) smoke?
yumi(Japanese) bow(drill)
tletl(Aztec) fire bowdrill

Any errors or additions?

[b***@ihug.co.nz]

Post by Daud Deden
Fire Control Evolution
api(Malay) fire piston
ape(Ainu) fire
apo(India-) fire
apa(Mbuti) ember/campfire
pahhur(Hittite) fire
ur(Hebrew) fire
*Apahuir fire
afire(English) firer/pharaoh?
agni(Hindu) fire spirit?
guni(Java-Bali) fire
buni(Bari) fire
guni(Bali-Javanese) fire
fumio/fumar(Spanish) smoke?
yumi(Japanese) bow(drill)
tletl(Aztec) fire bowdrill
Any errors or additions?

Any evolution?

[b***@ihug.co.nz]

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden
Fire Control Evolution
api(Malay) fire piston
ape(Ainu) fire
apo(India-) fire
apa(Mbuti) ember/campfire
pahhur(Hittite) fire
ur(Hebrew) fire
*Apahuir fire
afire(English) firer/pharaoh?
agni(Hindu) fire spirit?
guni(Java-Bali) fire
buni(Bari) fire
guni(Bali-Javanese) fire
fumio/fumar(Spanish) smoke?
yumi(Japanese) bow(drill)
tletl(Aztec) fire bowdrill
Any errors or additions?

Any evolution?

Come to that, any control?

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Daud Deden
Fire Control Evolution
api(Malay) fire piston
ape(Ainu) fire
apo(India-) fire
apa(Mbuti) ember/campfire
pahhur(Hittite) fire
ur(Hebrew) fire
*Apahuir fire
afire(English) firer/pharaoh?
agni(Hindu) fire spirit?
guni(Java-Bali) fire
buni(Bari) fire
guni(Bali-Javanese) fire
fumio/fumar(Spanish) smoke?
yumi(Japanese) bow(drill)
tletl(Aztec) fire bowdrill
Any errors or additions?

Where is the correspondence between Hittite pahur and Sanskrit agni? Proto-
Indo-European *peh2ur 'fire' and *h(x)ng(w)nis 'fire' are different roots,
accounting for separate groups of derivatives, one containing pahur, the
other agni, no connection between them, no evolution from one to the other.

Magdalenian offers PIR meaning fire, and the permutations of GEN for the
lunar phases, numbers taken and infered from the ideograms marking the bright
white bulls in the rotunda of Lascaux: 3 days or nights of the young moon,
6 of the waxing moon, 9 of the full moon (running beside the red mare of the
midsummer morning), 6 of the waning moon, 3 of the old moon, and alternately
3 and 2 of the empty moon (German Leermond), in all 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29
30 29 30 ... days for 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ... lunations or synodic months.
GEN was the young moon, accounting for Genesis, and for the moon god Sin of
Haran and the Sinai, while the permutation GNE was the full moon, accounting
for Sankrit agni Latin ignis 'fire (a further meaning star)' English ignite
ignition. The fire god Agni would originally have been the one who kindled
the fire of the young moon, and cared about the bright white fire of the
full moon.

You don't have to agree on Magdalenian, but you may try to find this book
via Amazon

The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European
World, by J.P. Mallory and D.Q. Adams, Oxford University Press 2006
(two reprints from 2007, maybe more from later years)

with very many word lists, including the one of fire and related words
(burn, ash, etc).

Intuition is fine - if it goes along with knowledge. So far you showed
no understanding of early times. NASA explored first the moon and only then
envisaged Mars. You ignore the near past and wish to go back 300,000 years
in time directly, bypassing the younger past and ignoring its rich legacy,
your means of teleportation nothing else than naive word playing.

[Daud Deden]

Where is the correspondence between Hittite pahur and Sanskrit agni? Proto-
Indo-European *peh2ur 'fire' and *h(x)ng(w)nis 'fire' are different roots,

Earlier same root ~ aphag(n/r/tl/t) ~ hot-pot-oven..
In Mbuti, apa means camp & fire, since they are one, = ember~ camper, cinder~ kindle~ candle~ (q)wick(er) ~ wig(wam), wiki~ fricti, incinerate-incindiary-*engyndrill/= tletl~ endura(Mbuti:internal) + yELohi = t.en.der.il(of smoke)/ember,
Ignis- lifespark-star ~ lig/l.eak/i.agni/animate/animal=binatang/bintang=star/intan=sparkle. Note: gyn, gen in English, hin in Malay, guin in Lusu.

"So far you showed no understanding of early times."

As I said, you are biased, so you have a blind spot, smaller than many but still large, which you fill up with fallacial constructs, I don't have that option, being a naturalist rather than a storyteller. Thanks.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Daud Deden
Earlier same root ~ aphag(n/r/tl/t) ~ hot-pot-oven..
In Mbuti, apa means camp & fire, since they are one, = ember~ camper, cinder~ kindle~ candle~ (q)wick(er) ~ wig(wam), wiki~ fricti, incinerate-incindiary-*engyndrill/= tletl~ endura(Mbuti:internal) + yELohi = t.en.der.il(of smoke)/ember,
Ignis- lifespark-star ~ lig/l.eak/i.agni/animate/animal=binatang/bintang=star/intan=sparkle. Note: gyn, gen in English, hin in Malay, guin in Lusu.

You are throwing words together, unhampered by a method, unblemished by
knowledge. Focus on your best intuition and work on a real case, otherwise
you won't find any support in sci.lang. - I had a hard time in here. What
saved me is that I firmly moor my reconstructions in archaeology and in
early literature. Ironically your presence helps me. Now people notice that
there is a wide gap between mere word playing and my alternative approach
to early language.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Fri, 1 Sep 2017 10:38:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Daud Deden
You misapply neo-terms with paleo-terms, everyone does. Color words did not exist long ago, nor did specific numbers or names or pronouns, these evolved later.

OMG, it's "Magdalenian" on steroids.

LOL.

[b***@ihug.co.nz]

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
We disagree on that then, thanks.
Here is one more, a group which I would consider cognate, at least in my own understanding (which might differ from formal linguistic definition).
Kapok, Kapas(Malay)= cotton tree, fluffy white seed pods, used in orange life jackets

The Malay word refers to the tree and its product, the fluff. Nothing to do with whiteness

The fluff is white, like snow.

Wikipedia describes it as "yellowish".

See the video, 1:35, white not yellow: http://youtu.be/Qr_QDVx7-Ws

YMMV, I guess.
Please debreviate YMMV.
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=kapok&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi72ovz2ILWAhWJj5QKHcPgBg4Q_AUICigB&biw=1024&bih=621

Post by Daud Deden
"Pulau Kapas means Cotton Island, due to its soft white beaches"

I guess you can't resist keeping "kapas" around
I lived there, I speak Malay. White cottony/snowy/ downy/smokey/milky.. co-ton~ tono(Mongol)=smoke-ring at the top of a yurt ~ kolo(Polish) wheel

"wheel"?

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
of its white fluffiness,
but its similarity to the other words in your set is .... -p-?
And it's from Sanskrit anyway, whereas "kapuk" is an Austronesian word.
(I know you don't care = just telling you.)
Kapas+kapok+kapuk=> xua.mbuax = sieve.moss/through-mom/monthly-ash for birthing/bleeding/burning(duff-huffpuff)~ Bo.mbax genus. Sanskrit & Austronesian are Neo-dialects to me.

Obviously.

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
By the time it gets to a shop
wherever you are, it's probably been bleached.

Probably not.

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
My point was that the tree's name makes no allusion to "whiteness". That
connection is entirely in your mind.

Wrong, as shown.

I don't think you understand my point. Tree names like "redbud" or "blackthorn"
make reference to the distinctive colour of some part of the tree. "Kapuk"
is not such a name. No part of "kapuk" is a Malay colour term.
Ka ~ xya/sky ~ gow(Chin) hemp
Putih (Malay) white
Tabu/Kapu(Austn) haunt/forbid
Hantu(Malay) haunted, ghostly
Ansu(PIE) spirit, ghostly-godly
Absu(Sem) whitewater sprite

Well, I guess if you throw enough of those at the wall, some of them
will stick. I wouldn't call it etymology, though. None of the above
contradicts what I said.

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
you think it was a colour term 100,000 years ago, or whatever
your date is.
There were no color terms then.

That's interesting. So what were there?

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
But your evidence consists mostly of cases like this, where
you have to imagine that some arbitrary part of the word refers to some
colour you associate (often quite improbably) with the thing. And you seem
to be indifferent to information about the actual etymology of the words.
You misapply neo-terms with paleo-terms, everyone does. Color words did not exist long ago, nor did specific numbers or names or pronouns, these evolved later.

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Ibogi(Pirahã, Amazon) milk [per D. Everett]
Kaoáíbógí(Pirahã, Amazon)= spirit-guide-theatrical, white-skin
kabuki(Japan)= traditional theatre, white-face cosmetics

from ka 'song', bu 'dance', ki 'skill, art'

Perhaps theatrical spiritual, I speculate it also as k.abu.ki, with ki = (smo)key, like hinoki (Japanese) cedar (fragrant smoke).

The ki in the name of the tree (a cypress, actually) is most likely
ki "tree".

Yes, Chamaecyparis obtuse. "One word that springs to mind when describing this arboreal aroma is “clean” – and perhaps it is this quality that makes it important in purification rituals in the Shinto religion."
White smoke is often used to 'purify' ritually, eg. sage. Black smoke isn't.
To purify: Kiyomemasu

Yes, that's kiyo- 'pure'. Not ki.
Hinokiyomemasu-> hinoki abbrev.

I take it that big long word is your invention.

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
I said cedar as a generalization, it is a false cypress.

Post by Daud Deden
http://www.edenbotanicals.com/hinoki-wood.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=1o4&scid=scplp428-6&sc_intid=428-6&gclid=Cj0KCQjw557NBRC9ARIsAHJvVVP4ZY4RQaG0eP-XQf0tKkqGsxSFvJe30UIlxFkWiBmseKBrxHxqOjkaAnnJEALw_wcB

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Spooky, Boo!, Bogey(man), Boogy(man)(English)= typically associated with ghostly white

actually, "bogey(man) doesn't normally refer a ghost, but to the devil or other scary imaginary being, not necessarily white at all

In the past I think whiteness of face or skin or hair (cf windigo of Potawatomi) was a signature feature.

Why do you think this?

Because that is what the pattern shows, as I have already said. Spirit/Spooky/Smokey/Bilge/Milky etc.

So I guess your "past" would have to be further back than historic pictures
of the devil, or bogey men, which in my experience do not particulary run
to white parts.
Devil isn't bogey/boogy, different.

I quoted the OED on this. But I know that won't impress you.

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Demon is disease, Satan is adversary, Lucifer is light bearer.

Hey, that sounds like neo-etymology!

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
then when you're working with 100,000 years this
is not going to trouble you.
You might (or others might) be troubled by the fact that your primary evidence
is already based on the conclusion you wish to reach.
That assessment seems to describe your own opinion.

Which opinion was that?

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
But convincing others
does not seem to be important to you.

Post by Daud Deden
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibyl

Probably what?
Same lineage, ~ shy+bilk, spirit, golomt-omen, delphi(womb) ..

All part of the same vast semantic mush.

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Melug(PIE) milk, typically white
I speculate these also share same root: comic, karmic, osmic;

The -ic part is not just the same root, but the same suffix (originally
Greek ko:mos 'merrymaking, revel'
Sanskrit karma 'action, fate'
Greek kosmos 'order, the world'
and that the common root for milk OOA was approx. *mbualgi or so.
Apparently derived by trying to squish all your "bog/pok" words together
with IE *melg. Well, it's a change from Franz's methods, but no more
convincing.

Fuse & diffuse.

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
I welcome any thoughts shared on this matter.
---
DD

[Daud Deden]

You are making it clear to me that you have no interest in paleo-etymology. That is ok with me, I share the same feeling about using image interpretaton in paleo-etymology, not my thing. To each his/her own.

[b***@ihug.co.nz]

Post by Daud Deden
You are making it clear to me that you have no interest in paleo-etymology. That is ok with me, I share the same feeling about using image interpretaton in paleo-etymology, not my thing. To each his/her own.

I've stated more than once that I consider "paleo-etymology" to be
no more than a word-game you like to play. I'm not sure why you want
to share it with others, but you don't seem to have found anyone on
this group who wants to play it. If you just want your factual errors
corrected, I've done some of that, but I will eventually get bored.

[e***@gmail.com]

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks, I've too busy to even read lately. Just a note: Apparently,
'Xya' rooted both SAI & CA, date ~ before 60ka, supplementing the earlier 'Nja'.
Question for all: Does anyone agree with me that these 2 words are cognate?
Golomt (Mongol): smokehole, Calumet(N.D.L.akota Siouxan, including Mandan): smokehole.
DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

What is your source for "Calumet"? The word is widely used in both
French and English to refer to the "peace pipe", and comes originally
from Norman French, nothing to do with smoke but with the plants
from which pipe-stems are made. Perhaps there is a genuine Siouan
word of this form meaning "smoke hole", but I would need to know
your source to be convinced.

[Daud Deden]

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks, I've too busy to even read lately. Just a note: Apparently,
'Xya' rooted both SAI & CA, date ~ before 60ka, supplementing the earlier 'Nja'.
Question for all: Does anyone agree with me that these 2 words are cognate?
Golomt (Mongol): smokehole, Calumet(N.D.L.akota Siouxan, including Mandan): smokehole.
DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

What is your source for "Calumet"? The word is widely used in both
French and English to refer to the "peace pipe", and comes originally
from Norman French, nothing to do with smoke but with the plants
from which pipe-stems are made. Perhaps there is a genuine Siouan
word of this form meaning "smoke hole", but I would need to know
your source to be convinced.

How often did the Norman French smoke the peace pipe?

[b***@ihug.co.nz]

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks, I've too busy to even read lately. Just a note: Apparently,
'Xya' rooted both SAI & CA, date ~ before 60ka, supplementing the earlier 'Nja'.
Question for all: Does anyone agree with me that these 2 words are cognate?
Golomt (Mongol): smokehole, Calumet(N.D.L.akota Siouxan, including Mandan): smokehole.
DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

What is your source for "Calumet"? The word is widely used in both
French and English to refer to the "peace pipe", and comes originally
from Norman French, nothing to do with smoke but with the plants
from which pipe-stems are made. Perhaps there is a genuine Siouan
word of this form meaning "smoke hole", but I would need to know
your source to be convinced.

How often did the Norman French smoke the peace pipe?

From time to time, I'm sure, when they were busy exploring the New World.
Even if they weren't smoking, they were observing and describing it.

[Daud Deden]

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Post by Daud Deden

Post by e***@gmail.com

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks, I've too busy to even read lately. Just a note: Apparently,
'Xya' rooted both SAI & CA, date ~ before 60ka, supplementing the earlier 'Nja'.
Question for all: Does anyone agree with me that these 2 words are cognate?
Golomt (Mongol): smokehole, Calumet(N.D.L.akota Siouxan, including Mandan): smokehole.
DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

What is your source for "Calumet"? The word is widely used in both
French and English to refer to the "peace pipe", and comes originally
from Norman French, nothing to do with smoke but with the plants
from which pipe-stems are made. Perhaps there is a genuine Siouan
word of this form meaning "smoke hole", but I would need to know
your source to be convinced.

How often did the Norman French smoke the peace pipe?

From time to time, I'm sure, when they were busy exploring the New World.
Even if they weren't smoking, they were observing and describing it.

Yes, I thought Elizabeth was referring to an earlier period, before English & French arrived in America. Thanks.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Daud Deden
DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

Careful with quick parallels. In the light of Magdalenian, DVD David derives
from DA PAD, away from DA activity of feet PAD - delivered from the paw of
the lion, delivered from the paw of the bear, and delivered from the 'paw'
of the giant Goliath; the lion standing for Egypt, the bear for Hattusas,
and Goliath for the Philistines or Sea Peoples from Achaia (Mediterranean).

[Daud Deden]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Daud Deden
DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

Careful with quick parallels. In the light of Magdalenian, DVD David derives
from DA PAD, away from DA activity of feet PAD - delivered from the paw of
the lion, delivered from the paw of the bear, and delivered from the 'paw'
of the giant Goliath; the lion standing for Egypt, the bear for Hattusas,
and Goliath for the Philistines or Sea Peoples from Achaia (Mediterranean).

All I can say is that I don't use image interpretations in my work, so it will probably be at odds with your results, and, that I'm focused on an earlier and broader period of time, and inclusive of global geography and its effects on culture and language. Thanks.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Daud Deden
All I can say is that I don't use image interpretations in my work, so it will probably be at odds with your results, and, that I'm focused on an earlier and broader period of time, and inclusive of global geography and its effects on culture and language. Thanks.

In the thread on psalms you finally reveal your intention: reconstructing
the language as of 300,000 years ago. The time frame is fine with me;
just recently a fragment of a skull from a some 300,000 years old specimen
of Homo sapiens sapiens had been found in Northern Africa, showing that
our species is far older than previously assumed (before between 150,000
and 220,000 years) and wandered far already in early times (not originary
from Nothern Africa). But what do you know of ideas about early language?
For example Merrit Ruhlen reconstructed an early word *KAPA meaning hand,
finger, teeth, capture, and so on, for which he found evidence in some
130 or even 150 languages all over the world. Do you have a university
library in your vicinity? if so I can give you the bibliographical details.
Magdalenian proposes PAC for horse, inverse CAP for capturing horses,
present in capture, in Latin caput 'head' referring to the ancient way
of counting horses and cattle by counting the number of their heads.
PAC has a lateral association in PEC for cattle, mainly sheep and goats
and swine, a word present in ibex, but also cow, pecunia 'money' deriving
from a silver ingot decorated with the picture of a cow, worth a cow or
a house. Ultimately PAC and PEC also account for Latin habere German haben
English have (incompatible under the comparative method, well compatible
in Magdalenian). And then there is your bogey man - if you have seen the
marvellous film Amarcord ('I remember') by Federico Fellini you certainly
recall how the boy returns home from school via a dense fog and suddenly
a horned bovine appears from the dense mist just a couple of feet away ...
That is how I imagine PEC for cattle became bog and bogeyman. While I
care about early language (from 60,000 BP onward, based on archaeological
evidence (mainly cave art and rock art and mobile art), others work on very
early language (150,000 BP and before). You should know what they are doing
before getting lost playing with mere sound associations and thus wasting
your time. You should study word fields with a wider and deeper scope.

[Daud Deden]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Daud Deden
All I can say is that I don't use image interpretations in my work, so it will probably be at odds with your results, and, that I'm focused on an earlier and broader period of time, and inclusive of global geography and its effects on culture and language. Thanks.

In the thread on psalms you finally reveal your intention: reconstructing
the language as of 300,000 years ago.

No, my intention is to understand Homo sapiens evolution since Morotopithecus 20ma (upright bipedal arborealist).

I find linguistic paleo-etymology to be a very useful tool in analyzing Homo sapiens cultural evolution (which does not fossilize, unlike biological evolution).

Good reconstruction requires both near-cognates (say Welsh & Scott's Gaelic) and far-cognates (say Piraha & Mbuti), otherwise it isn't very helpful to me.

I've read Ruhlen, generally good work. He had a table of basal words in Hebrew, Arabic and Turkish which had 7 out of 10 words with common roots, showing ancient ties.

C. Lacoutx also liked "reversals", I don't, I see them as merely permutations, like Semitic trilateral roots, pace/pac/cap. Groups varied in their application of sound management, depending on climate, aridity, population, technology...

Bovine/Bos <= Mbo (Balinese) mother (cow) <= xyam.bua <= njambo
Aurochs <= oryx (probably) African desert antelope, doesn't drink

You have a number of biases & opinions which I do not share. Thanks. DD
-

The time frame is fine with me;

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
just recently a fragment of a skull from a some 300,000 years old specimen
of Homo sapiens sapiens had been found in Northern Africa, showing that
our species is far older than previously assumed (before between 150,000
and 220,000 years) and wandered far already in early times (not originary
from Nothern Africa). But what do you know of ideas about early language?
For example Merrit Ruhlen reconstructed an early word *KAPA meaning hand,
finger, teeth, capture, and so on, for which he found evidence in some
130 or even 150 languages all over the world. Do you have a university
library in your vicinity? if so I can give you the bibliographical details.
Magdalenian proposes PAC for horse, inverse CAP for capturing horses,
present in capture, in Latin caput 'head' referring to the ancient way
of counting horses and cattle by counting the number of their heads.
PAC has a lateral association in PEC for cattle, mainly sheep and goats
and swine, a word present in ibex, but also cow, pecunia 'money' deriving
from a silver ingot decorated with the picture of a cow, worth a cow or
a house. Ultimately PAC and PEC also account for Latin habere German haben
English have (incompatible under the comparative method, well compatible
in Magdalenian). And then there is your bogey man - if you have seen the
marvellous film Amarcord ('I remember') by Federico Fellini you certainly
recall how the boy returns home from school via a dense fog and suddenly
a horned bovine appears from the dense mist just a couple of feet away ...
That is how I imagine PEC for cattle became bog and bogeyman. While I
care about early language (from 60,000 BP onward, based on archaeological
evidence (mainly cave art and rock art and mobile art), others work on very
early language (150,000 BP and before). You should know what they are doing
before getting lost playing with mere sound associations and thus wasting
your time. You should study word fields with a wider and deeper scope.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Daud Deden
I've read Ruhlen, generally good work.

Oh, jeez.

Post by Daud Deden
He had a table of basal words in Hebrew, Arabic and Turkish which had 7 out of 10 words with common roots, showing ancient ties.

Nonsense. Hebrew and Arabic are closely related. Turkish borrowed massively
from Arabic.

[Daud Deden]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Daud Deden
I've read Ruhlen, generally good work.

Oh, jeez.

Some errors, overall, minor.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Daud Deden
He had a table of basal words in Hebrew, Arabic and Turkish which had 7 out of 10 words with common roots, showing ancient ties.

Nonsense. Hebrew and Arabic are closely related. Turkish borrowed massively
from Arabic.

Turkish with Islam did borrow Arab & Persian. But, I'm talking basal words, far older linkage. Ruhlen didn't mention it, but the table is clear. Of course, coincidence could account for some. The various proto-Silk Road routes surely carried some terms back and forth along with plagues etc. So maybe/maybe not a much older linkage of the three.

[DKleinecke]

Post by Daud Deden

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Daud Deden
I've read Ruhlen, generally good work.

Oh, jeez.

Some errors, overall, minor.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Daud Deden
He had a table of basal words in Hebrew, Arabic and Turkish which had 7 out of 10 words with common roots, showing ancient ties.

Nonsense. Hebrew and Arabic are closely related. Turkish borrowed massively
from Arabic.

Turkish with Islam did borrow Arab & Persian. But, I'm talking basal words, far older linkage. Ruhlen didn't mention it, but the table is clear. Of course, coincidence could account for some. The various proto-Silk Road routes surely carried some terms back and forth along with plagues etc. So maybe/maybe not a much older linkage of the three.

What needs to be done (I am not volunteering to do it) is to
take each alleged common word in Turkish and Hebrew/Arabic
and determine their etymologies within their own groups. Any
loan words will lack a good etymology in one group or the
other.

[Daud Deden]

Yes.

[b***@ihug.co.nz]

Yes.

Yes what? You've removed everything but your answer.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz

Yes.

Yes what? You've removed everything but your answer.

It wasn't any clearer when he responded to my intact comments with "Yes."

[Daud Deden]

I guess the phone version differs from the computer version. Now on phone, I guess this message will also not include your words. Not sure how to fix that.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Daud Deden
I've read Ruhlen, generally good work.

Oh, jeez.

Post by Daud Deden
He had a table of basal words in Hebrew, Arabic and Turkish which had 7 out of 10 words with common roots, showing ancient ties.

Nonsense. Hebrew and Arabic are closely related. Turkish borrowed massively
from Arabic.

Whatever one may think of Ruhlen he isn't so sloppy as to
include the Arabic loanwords in Turkish for comparision.

The OP must be misquoting.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Daud Deden
You have a number of biases & opinions which I do not share. Thanks. DD

A miracle of language is that we can describe the whole world with an
alphabet of 26 letters. Inevitably many words are similar but have nothing
else in common. You can't go by similarities of sound only. Reconstructions
require ideas and a method, ample knowledge of life and the world and the past,
or then big data, ideally the unabridged dictionaries of all 6,000 languages
on Earth. I moore my reconstructions in archaeology (cave art and rock art
and mobile art) and in literature (Phaistos Disc as deciphered by Derk
Ohlenroth, other early documents, Homer's Odyssey, and the Bible) and check
them against the insights provided by the comparative method (mainly Mallory
and Adams 2006). Another metaphor: a stable table requires at least three legs.
Do you know how many people go for early language on the basis of nothing
else than similarities of sound? I don't know either, but I know that they
are legions, and they are, sadly, wasting their time.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Fri, 1 Sep 2017 00:14:49 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Do you know how many people go for early language on the basis of nothing
else than similarities of sound?

Zero, I would think. Mainstream etymologie always takes meaning into
account too.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I don't know either, but I know that they
are legions, and they are, sadly, wasting their time.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Zero, I would think. Mainstream etymologie always takes meaning into
account too.

By similarities of sound I mean conclusions of the sort: Ruud must come
from rude, and Harmsen from harm; your name would then mean Rude Harmer,
someone behaving rudely and harming others. Magdalenian has RYT for
spear thrower, archer, inverse TYR for the one who overcomes in the
double sense of rule and give, present in tyrant, once a positive term,
but when a tyrant only ruled and took instead of give, he became the
tyrant in the negative sense we know today. RYT accounts for Greek rhytaer
'archer, protector' (a tyrant provided safety for his people, an important
way of giving), also for rider, and for German Ross und Reiter 'horse
and rider', also for Ritter 'knight'. Ruud is then the scion of knights,
not primarily a rude one. What does mainstream etymology say about your
given name?

[Ruud Harmsen]

Sat, 2 Sep 2017 00:38:08 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
By similarities of sound I mean conclusions of the sort: Ruud must come
from rude, and Harmsen from harm; your name would then mean Rude Harmer,
someone behaving rudely and harming others.

Utter nonsense.

Ruud < Rudolf < https://www.behindthename.com/name/rudolf « From the
Germanic name Hrodulf, which was derived from the elements hrod "fame"
and wulf "wolf". »

Harmsen = son of Harm(en) < Herman
https://www.behindthename.com/name/harm
https://www.behindthename.com/name/herman
« Means "army man", derived from the Germanic elements hari "army" and
man "man". »

So I am a famous wolf and fighter. I don't feel like that is my role
in life, though.

All the etymologies of such names are amply known. No fantasies
required.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Ruud < Rudolf < https://www.behindthename.com/name/rudolf « From the
Germanic name Hrodulf, which was derived from the elements hrod "fame"
and wulf "wolf". »

Hrod 'fame' also goes back to RYT for archer, spear thrower, Greek rhytaer
'archer, protector', the Magdalenian word having very many derivatives
(as explained recently in my Magdalenian thread), an archer, protector,
Ritter, knight who got famous.

I made fun of naive word playing, not of the comparative method.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Sat, 2 Sep 2017 00:38:08 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger

What does mainstream etymology say about your given name?

Franz < Hungarian Ferenc < Firenze, which was the Old-Italic name of
what later became Florentia in Neo-Latin, 'city of flowers'.

Gnaediger < gnädige Frau < Jungfrau, < Middle-Dutch jonkvrouw, maagd.
MAGAD > GAMAD > GANAD > genadig > gnädig.

So your ancester must have been a servant, flower-bearer and
illigitimate son of Catharina de' Medici, later murdered by
grand-cousin thrice removed Lorenzo.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 2 Sep 2017 00:38:08 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger

What does mainstream etymology say about your given name?

Franz < Hungarian Ferenc < Firenze, which was the Old-Italic name of
what later became Florentia in Neo-Latin, 'city of flowers'.
Gnaediger < gnädige Frau < Jungfrau, < Middle-Dutch jonkvrouw, maagd.
MAGAD > GAMAD > GANAD > genadig > gnädig.
So your ancester must have been a servant, flower-bearer and
illigitimate son of Catharina de' Medici, later murdered by
grand-cousin thrice removed Lorenzo.

I was making fun of naive word playing but apparently you thought I was
making fun of the comparative method, so I gave you an example of naive
word playing, using your name (actually an old word play of mine: your
very first reply to me had been ruud, meant to harmsen me - but then you
proved to be a worthy member of sci.lang who can argue on the topic level).
One can also apply Magdalenian in a naive way. My name might be read as

BRI.NOS GNE.DhAG

fertile BRI mind NOS full moon GNE able DhAG, something like

he of the fertile mind, shining like the full moon, the able one

while I made you the scion of an knight, no wolf, as your given name is Ruud
only. Also rude goes back to RYT for a spear thrower, archer, accounting for
Latin rudis 'thin spear of a gladiator' (etymology unclear, says my dictionary)
and rudis 'raw, not worked on' (etymology unclear, says my dictionary).
Empoverished knights formed gangs of robbers, and a Jamaican rudy is a young
criminal. If you look at language from the Magdalenian view-point, going from
the trunk and big branches to smaller branches to twigs and twiglets and
leafes, you can observe how words unfold in ever more meanings. Whereas naive
word playing makes direct connections for one leaf to another, not considering
the tree-dimensional depth (pun) of the word tree.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 4 Sep 2017 00:19:02 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 2 Sep 2017 00:38:08 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger

What does mainstream etymology say about your given name?

Franz < Hungarian Ferenc < Firenze, which was the Old-Italic name of
what later became Florentia in Neo-Latin, 'city of flowers'.
Gnaediger < gnädige Frau < Jungfrau, < Middle-Dutch jonkvrouw, maagd.
MAGAD > GAMAD > GANAD > genadig > gnädig.
So your ancester must have been a servant, flower-bearer and
illigitimate son of Catharina de' Medici, later murdered by
grand-cousin thrice removed Lorenzo.

I was making fun of naive word playing but apparently you thought I was
making fun of the comparative method,

I don't know what you are making fun of, but I noticed repeatedly
that your etymologic fantasies completely ignore language families,
time scales, and systematic sound changes. So they cannot have any
validity whatsoever.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
so I gave you an example of naive
word playing, using your name (actually an old word play of mine: your
very first reply to me had been ruud, meant to harmsen me - but then you
proved to be a worthy member of sci.lang who can argue on the topic level).

I gave you a persiflage of your own method, but better insight of how
wrong you are. But you don't even recognize it. What else is new.

[Daud Deden]

play = peel.

Ruud= ray+uud/wood = rod(tuber digging stick-spear), rodig-rodrick - arrowe-dri(g)ll (possibly)


DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 3:05:04 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
What else is new.
Is Rudolf really a Famous Wolf? and if so, what wolf is Adolf? Going deeper
I see another possible etymology

RYT for spear thrower, archer, Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector'
AD for toward
POL for a fortified settlement, Greek polis
OLP for the wealth and power concentrated in a fortified settlement

RYT OLP Rudolf, an archer as protector of the wealth and power
concentrated in a fortified settlement ??
AD OLP Adolf, he oriented toward the wealth and power concentrated
in a fortified settlement, perhaps a minister ??

Now the next step would be to look out for these names in mythology and
early literature. The only similar name I found in my books at home is
the one of a Celt, son of the mighty triple goddess Brigid: Ruadan of
the infallible spears. Remember RYT meaning spear thrower, archer.

In the light of Ruadan and his infallible spears the Famous Wolf might be
an overforming. The comparative method can't go behind overformings,
and they are frequent. Here, once again, my favorite example. Cossiniacum
on Lake Lucerne in Central Switzerland was the expanse of land with water
owned by the Gallo-Roman Cossinius, Cossinii acum, Cossiniacum. The later
Allemannic settlers didn't understand the place name anymore, parsed it
wrongly, Cossi-niacum, and turned it into Küssnacht 'Kissing Night' ...
(big laughter in the geography class in elementary school when that place
name came up).

[Daud Deden]

Sibudu Cave: Ochre crayon or waste product?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275989740_Ochre_crayons_or_waste_products_Replications_compared_with_MSA_%27crayons%27_from_Sibudu_Cave_South_Africa

Sibudu cave ~ Xymbutiw (zombie.voodoo, Sky(embue/view?)Deus)

Post by Daud Deden
Kuumbi Cave, Zanzibar Island (off-coast EAfr)
"The earliest introduction of domestic chickens and black rats from Asia to the east coast of Africa came via maritime routes between the 7th and 8th centuries AD" https://phys.org/news/2017-08-early-indian-ocean-routes-chicken.html
"Archaeologists have been debating the timing, mechanisms and social contexts of the arrival of Asian plants and animals to eastern Africa for a long time," explains Dr. Boivin, senior author of the study. The competing models are, on the one hand, a very early arrival of Asian species starting around 3000 BC as suggested by some previous studies, and on the other hand, a more modest, mid-first millennium AD arrival in connection with the archaeologically-confirmed maritime trade routes"
"Excavations in Kuumbi Cave, Zanzibar, Tanzania. Avian remains recovered at this site that were originally identified morphologically as domestic chicken were proven to in fact be native guinea fowl when analyzed with ZooMS, illustrating the benefits of using multiple types of analysis"
- - -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwenzori_Mountains
- - -

Post by Daud Deden

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Daud Deden
Yes, but it is early in the project, still much info. to gather.
Bhimbetke, Bimbache, Masjedbebe appear significant.

Tell us when you can say more.
The only possible coherence between the meaning of a cave and its modern
name I found is Lascaux.
Marie E.P. König identified the horse as sun horse, the bull as moon bull,
and the opposing ibices in the niche at the rear end of the axial gallery
as midwinter emblem (in other parts of the world also antithetic mountain
goats). We can then see the niche as midwinter, the axial gallery as year,
and the glorious rotunda as midsummer - the red mare rising above the ledge
as midsummer sun rising above the horizon, and the proud whilte bull by
her side as a full moon occurring at the same time (ideal start of an
eight-year period in the lunisolar calendar of Lascaux).
The rotunda is then the sky within a hill or mountain (hills were often
called mountains). Magdalenian offers LAS for mountain and CA for sky.
LAS CA Lascaux, hill or mountain of the sky within ??

Originally human ancestors avoided rainforest caves (cf. Pygmies), then used wind-blocking rockshelters in temperate semi-arid zones while their shelters evolved for colder/hotter/windier climes(thick thatch, skins, canvas, bark).

[Daud Deden]

Moonmilk, Karstic country & prehistoric art, fluting in cavewalls

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonmilk

Stalactite ~ Star+leak+teats

- - -

Post by Daud Deden
I'm starting to check the names of the caves associated with early AMHs (Anatomically Modern Homo sapiens) or hominin remains for possible paleo-etymologies, I'm not claiming these as factual, but as reasonable interpetations.
est. 80ka
Bhimbetke (Narmada River, central India) Bambatwa-Ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously painted (cave)wall
est. 72ka
Lida Ajer (Sumatra) may be Lidah Air (Modern Malay) = tongue water
["Sumatra" from Sumbatwa = Xyua + mBatwa = Sieve + Pygmy clan which uses click consonants per Merrit Ruhlen, linguist)]
120ka? (uncertain date)
Mata Menge (Flores) = Mata + menge = eye/point/hole + dark(mengelap),
50ka? (uncertain date)
Ling Bua (Flores) = Ling + Bua = zero or ceiling(?) + cave (cf. (Malay: gua cave)
est. 60ka
Madjedbembe (Queensland, North Australia)= Image-magic + ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously glitter-painted(cave)wall
est. 55ka
Booti (island, Northwest Australia) = Birth/beget/mother = Mbo(oldest African YDNA; Mbo in Balinese: mother) + uterine-youth-utility~fertility(?) ~ BaM.buti(Congo Ituri rainforest Pygmy tribe)
Sulawesi cave with world's oldest painted walls ?
Laos Monkey Cave (Pygmy skull fossil) ?
Borneo (Spirit?) Cave ? 45KA?
Toraja burial caves
Chauvet (France) and other European painted caves with odd or ancient unknown names carried since antiquity.
Southern African cave shelters with artifacts (ochre crayons, etched eggshells like Howieson Poort ~ 65ka
Note: Spirit/Spooky = haunt(English) = hantu(Malay:white-faced ghost) = Kabuki(Japan:white-faced ghost theatre) = Kaoáíbógí(Piraha tribe, Maici River, Amazon, Brazil: white-faced spirit guide/theatre)