"Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke

[a425couple]

Over in my old thread, "OT opinion - Sorry Nerds--",
"desiege" mentioned "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke

That is one I had never heard of and it was not in my books.
It was quite interesting.

I read it from here:
http://www.gdhsenglish.com/thompson/assets/pdfs/ENG3U1%20pdf's/Short%20Stories/BEFORE%20EDEN.pdf

One can listen to it (Helps me keep on track) from here:

And here, is a synopsis of it:
http://thescifidigest.blogspot.com/2012/04/before-eden-arthur-c-clarke.html

"Before Eden - Arthur C. Clarke
Clarke's Before Eden starts as any generic planetary exploration
would. Two men from an expedition who investigate the polar regions
of Venus and find the less harsh atmosphere ready for the evolution
of life. But has it already? The plot takes through a vivid
scientific expedition that visualizes barren Venusian landscape
and something even more curious, a moving shape that hints at
early evolution.
The story's success is that it doesn't tread a cliched path, but
instead takes the reader by surprise in the very last paragraph."

or
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22608644-before-eden

one comment is "One of the overlooked gems of Clarke's oeuvre.
A very atmospheric first contact story, with a really unexpected
(and cautionary) twist ending. Though the past or present existence
of life on Venus is a big enigma, this is a great bit of hard SF on
the topic. Read it (or listen to it) with an open mind and you'll
be pleasantly surprised."

[William Hyde]

Post by a425couple
Over in my old thread, "OT opinion - Sorry Nerds--",
"desiege" mentioned "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke
That is one I had never heard of and it was not in my books.
It was quite interesting.
http://www.gdhsenglish.com/thompson/assets/pdfs/ENG3U1%20pdf's/Short%20Stories/BEFORE%20EDEN.pdf
http://youtu.be/XQHwIdST2PQ
http://thescifidigest.blogspot.com/2012/04/before-eden-arthur-c-clarke.html
"Before Eden - Arthur C. Clarke
Clarke's Before Eden starts as any generic planetary exploration
would. Two men from an expedition who investigate the polar regions
of Venus and find the less harsh atmosphere ready for the evolution
of life. But has it already? The plot takes through a vivid
scientific expedition that visualizes barren Venusian landscape
and something even more curious, a moving shape that hints at
early evolution.
The story's success is that it doesn't tread a cliched path, but
instead takes the reader by surprise in the very last paragraph."
or
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22608644-before-eden
one comment is "One of the overlooked gems of Clarke's oeuvre.
A very atmospheric first contact story, with a really unexpected
(and cautionary) twist ending. Though the past or present existence
of life on Venus is a big enigma, this is a great bit of hard SF on
the topic. Read it (or listen to it) with an open mind and you'll
be pleasantly surprised."

In 1961 Clarke published three stories which are (IMO) very good, and quite different from his usual work.

"Before Eden" "Death and the Senator" and "Hate" take a darker view of the world than Clarke generally did, before or after. This doesn't - as far as I know, correlate with any negative event in Clarke' life.

Perhaps is was a conscious attempt to expand his range as a writer. If so, it worked. He might have gone on in this vein, but the next year he caught Polio, and soon after that 2001 began to take up most of his fiction writing time.

William Hyde

[Michael F. Stemper]

Post by William Hyde
In 1961 Clarke published three stories which are (IMO) very good, and quite different from his usual work.
"Before Eden" "Death and the Senator" and "Hate" take a darker view of the world than Clarke generally did, before or after. This doesn't - as far as I know, correlate with any negative event in Clarke' life.

I encountered all three of these in this collection:

<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?34358>

I'm not normally a big Clarke fan, but these stories were all top-notch.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by a425couple

Post by a425couple
Over in my old thread, "OT opinion - Sorry Nerds--",
"desiege" mentioned "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke
That is one I had never heard of and it was not in my books.
It was quite interesting.

http://www.gdhsenglish.com/thompson/assets/pdfs/ENG3U1%20pdf's/Short%20Stories/BEFORE%20EDEN.pdf

Post by a425couple
http://youtu.be/XQHwIdST2PQ
http://thescifidigest.blogspot.com/2012/04/before-eden-arthur-c-clarke.html
"Before Eden - Arthur C. Clarke
Clarke's Before Eden starts as any generic planetary exploration
would. Two men from an expedition who investigate the polar regions
of Venus and find the less harsh atmosphere ready for the evolution
of life. But has it already? The plot takes through a vivid
scientific expedition that visualizes barren Venusian landscape
and something even more curious, a moving shape that hints at
early evolution.
The story's success is that it doesn't tread a cliched path, but
instead takes the reader by surprise in the very last paragraph."
or
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22608644-before-eden
one comment is "One of the overlooked gems of Clarke's oeuvre.
A very atmospheric first contact story, with a really unexpected
(and cautionary) twist ending. Though the past or present existence
of life on Venus is a big enigma, this is a great bit of hard SF on
the topic. Read it (or listen to it) with an open mind and you'll
be pleasantly surprised."

In 1961 Clarke published three stories which are (IMO) very good, and
quite different from his usual work.
"Before Eden" "Death and the Senator" and "Hate" take a darker view of
the world than Clarke generally did, before or after. This doesn't - as
far as I know, correlate with any negative event in Clarke' life.
Perhaps is was a conscious attempt to expand his range as a writer. If
so, it worked. He might have gone on in this vein, but the next year he
caught Polio, and soon after that 2001 began to take up most of his
fiction writing time.
William Hyde

Huh. That's curious. Wasn't the Polio vaccine available in England
by that time? It was here.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
He might have gone on in this vein, but the next year he

caught Polio, and soon after that 2001 began to take up most of his
fiction writing time.

Huh. That's curious. Wasn't the Polio vaccine available in England
by that time? It was here.

The Salk vaccine, in 1955, the Sabin vaccine in 1962.

But remember, polio had long been considered a disease of
children. They called it "infantile paralysis," and chldren who
caught it frequently made a full recovery. When I was, let's
see, eleven, so that would have been the summer of 1953, I knew a
bout of about the same age who had had polio and recovered
completely.

But here's the gotcha. Received medical opinion in the first
half or so of the twentieth century was "If you didn't catch a
'childhood disease' as a child, you'll never catch it." This
concept was probably supported by herd immunity, since practically
everybody did catch the childhood diseases in childhood.

Here I can tell a tale. My mother was a Registered Nurse who had
trained in the early 1930s. She was fanatical about not letting
me catch any childhood diseases. I can still remember, at age
single-digits, standing in the doorway of a friend's bedroom, not
allowed to go in lest I catch her whooping cough.

I never caught whooping cough. I did, however, catch red measles
at eighteen (two weeks in isolation in a darkened room) and
chicken pox at nineteen (a week in isolation at Cowell Hospital
on the UCB campus) and they were a lot worse than they wouldve
been if I'd caught them, say, fifteen years before.

The first vaccination against a "childhood disease" I got was
against German measles, just before I married, for obvious reasons.

I can easily see the NHS (or whatever Britain had in that period)
concentrating on getting the children vaccinated and assuming the
adults were safe, even in the face of the statistics. And Clarke
lived in Sri Lanka from 1956 till his death, and I would bet a
case of cookies that polio vaccination was essentially unknown
there till goodness knows how late.

Note, I am not an MD nor an RN, nor do I play one on TV.

[Kevrob]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I can easily see the NHS (or whatever Britain had in that period)
concentrating on getting the children vaccinated and assuming the
adults were safe, even in the face of the statistics. And Clarke
lived in Sri Lanka from 1956 till his death, and I would bet a
case of cookies that polio vaccination was essentially unknown
there till goodness knows how late.
Note, I am not an MD nor an RN, nor do I play one on TV.

Would religious groups on Ceylon/Sri Lanka have opposed the
vaccinations?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_and_religion

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I can easily see the NHS (or whatever Britain had in that period)
concentrating on getting the children vaccinated and assuming the
adults were safe, even in the face of the statistics. And Clarke
lived in Sri Lanka from 1956 till his death, and I would bet a
case of cookies that polio vaccination was essentially unknown
there till goodness knows how late.
Note, I am not an MD nor an RN, nor do I play one on TV.

Would religious groups on Ceylon/Sri Lanka have opposed the
vaccinations?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_and_religion

Interesting. I don't know about attitudes in Sri Lanka. But
Clarke could probably have gone to the UK Embassy or somewhere
and gotten the vaccination if it had occurred to him.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Kevrob

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I can easily see the NHS (or whatever Britain had in that period)
concentrating on getting the children vaccinated and assuming the
adults were safe, even in the face of the statistics. And Clarke
lived in Sri Lanka from 1956 till his death, and I would bet a
case of cookies that polio vaccination was essentially unknown
there till goodness knows how late.
Note, I am not an MD nor an RN, nor do I play one on TV.

Would religious groups on Ceylon/Sri Lanka have opposed the
vaccinations?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_and_religion

Interesting. I don't know about attitudes in Sri Lanka. But
Clarke could probably have gone to the UK Embassy or somewhere
and gotten the vaccination if it had occurred to him.

Apparently his illness became apparent in 1961, 6 years after the Salk
vaccine, so no, he probably didn't get it before that time.

[a425couple]

Post by William Hyde

Post by a425couple
Over in my old thread, "OT opinion - Sorry Nerds--",
"desiege" mentioned "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke
That is one I had never heard of and it was not in my books.
It was quite interesting.

http://www.gdhsenglish.com/thompson/assets/pdfs/ENG3U1%20pdf's/Short%20Stories/BEFORE%20EDEN.pdf

Post by William Hyde

Post by a425couple
http://youtu.be/XQHwIdST2PQ

http://thescifidigest.blogspot.com/2012/04/before-eden-arthur-c-clarke.html

Post by William Hyde

Post by a425couple
-----
or
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22608644-before-eden
one comment is "One of the overlooked gems of Clarke's oeuvre.
A very atmospheric first contact story, with a really unexpected
(and cautionary) twist ending. Though the past or present existence
of life on Venus is a big enigma, this is a great bit of hard SF on
the topic. Read it (or listen to it) with an open mind and you'll
be pleasantly surprised."

In 1961 Clarke published three stories which are (IMO) very good, and

quite different from his usual work.

Post by William Hyde
"Before Eden" "Death and the Senator" and "Hate" take a darker view

of the world than Clarke generally did, before or after. This doesn't -
as far as I know, correlate with any negative event in Clarke' life.

Post by William Hyde
Perhaps is was a conscious attempt to expand his range as a writer.

If so, it worked. He might have gone on in this vein, but the next year
he caught Polio, and soon after that 2001 began to take up most of his
fiction writing time.

Post by William Hyde
William Hyde

That is an interesting observation.
I prefer his most common, fairly optimistic side.

Back in 6-20-2017 in this newsgroup I posted some of
my opinions on the short story "Hate". Nobody responded.

I have not read his "Death and the Senator".
Thank you for mentioning it.
I will now read it at
http://krypton.mnsu.edu/~jp5985fj/courses/230/DeathandtheSenatorAS_9417320.pdf

and one can listen to it at:

(but it is over 50 minutes long,,,,.)

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by William Hyde

Post by a425couple
Over in my old thread, "OT opinion - Sorry Nerds--",
"desiege" mentioned "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke
That is one I had never heard of and it was not in my books.
It was quite interesting.
http://www.gdhsenglish.com/thompson/assets/pdfs/ENG3U1%20pdf's/Short%20Stories/BEFORE%20EDEN.pdf
http://youtu.be/XQHwIdST2PQ
http://thescifidigest.blogspot.com/2012/04/before-eden-arthur-c-clarke.html
"Before Eden - Arthur C. Clarke
Clarke's Before Eden starts as any generic planetary exploration
would. Two men from an expedition who investigate the polar regions
of Venus and find the less harsh atmosphere ready for the evolution
of life. But has it already? The plot takes through a vivid
scientific expedition that visualizes barren Venusian landscape
and something even more curious, a moving shape that hints at
early evolution.
The story's success is that it doesn't tread a cliched path, but
instead takes the reader by surprise in the very last paragraph."
or
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22608644-before-eden
one comment is "One of the overlooked gems of Clarke's oeuvre.
A very atmospheric first contact story, with a really unexpected
(and cautionary) twist ending. Though the past or present existence
of life on Venus is a big enigma, this is a great bit of hard SF on
the topic. Read it (or listen to it) with an open mind and you'll
be pleasantly surprised."

In 1961 Clarke published three stories which are (IMO) very good, and quite different from his usual work.
"Before Eden" "Death and the Senator" and "Hate" take a darker view of the world than Clarke generally did, before or after. This doesn't - as far as I know, correlate with any negative event in Clarke' life.
Perhaps is was a conscious attempt to expand his range as a writer. If so, it worked. He might have gone on in this vein, but the next year he caught Polio, and soon after that 2001 began to take up most of his fiction writing time.
William Hyde

I would argue that "Breaking Strain" is at least as dark as "Death and he Senator". The title is an allusion to one of kKipling's darker verses, after all.

"Death and he Senator" is about the tragedy that a great limit on medical treatment (in this case zero G) creates when many more poeple need the treatment than cna possibly have it.

I don't recall "Hate" off hand.

"Before Eden" is a cautionary tale, and i believe has been used at NASA to illustrate the need for care in what we send to other worlds, much as "Superiority" has been used for reading at West Point, or so I have read.

There are a few other rather dark stories by Clarke: "A Walk in the Dark", for example, or the one where (spoiler) the only earth artifact remaining is a Disney film (I can't recall the title at the moment). For the matter of that the original story "The Sentinal" before it was used to craft _2001_ was not exactly all light.

-DES

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by a425couple

Post by William Hyde

Post by a425couple
Over in my old thread, "OT opinion - Sorry Nerds--",
"desiege" mentioned "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke
That is one I had never heard of and it was not in my books.
It was quite interesting.

http://www.gdhsenglish.com/thompson/assets/pdfs/ENG3U1%20pdf's/Short%20Stories/BEFORE%20EDEN.pdf

Post by William Hyde

Post by a425couple
http://youtu.be/XQHwIdST2PQ
http://thescifidigest.blogspot.com/2012/04/before-eden-arthur-c-clarke.html
"Before Eden - Arthur C. Clarke
Clarke's Before Eden starts as any generic planetary exploration
would. Two men from an expedition who investigate the polar regions
of Venus and find the less harsh atmosphere ready for the evolution
of life. But has it already? The plot takes through a vivid
scientific expedition that visualizes barren Venusian landscape
and something even more curious, a moving shape that hints at
early evolution.
The story's success is that it doesn't tread a cliched path, but
instead takes the reader by surprise in the very last paragraph."
or
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22608644-before-eden
one comment is "One of the overlooked gems of Clarke's oeuvre.
A very atmospheric first contact story, with a really unexpected
(and cautionary) twist ending. Though the past or present existence
of life on Venus is a big enigma, this is a great bit of hard SF on
the topic. Read it (or listen to it) with an open mind and you'll
be pleasantly surprised."

In 1961 Clarke published three stories which are (IMO) very good, and

quite different from his usual work.

Post by William Hyde
"Before Eden" "Death and the Senator" and "Hate" take a darker view of

the world than Clarke generally did, before or after. This doesn't - as
far as I know, correlate with any negative event in Clarke' life.

Post by William Hyde
Perhaps is was a conscious attempt to expand his range as a writer.

If so, it worked. He might have gone on in this vein, but the next year
he caught Polio, and soon after that 2001 began to take up most of his
fiction writing time.

Post by William Hyde
William Hyde

I would argue that "Breaking Strain" is at least as dark as "Death and
he Senator". The title is an allusion to one of kKipling's darker
verses, after all.
"Death and he Senator" is about the tragedy that a great limit on
medical treatment (in this case zero G) creates when many more poeple
need the treatment than cna possibly have it.
I don't recall "Hate" off hand.
"Before Eden" is a cautionary tale, and i believe has been used at NASA
to illustrate the need for care in what we send to other worlds, much as
"Superiority" has been used for reading at West Point, or so I have
read.
There are a few other rather dark stories by Clarke: "A Walk in the
Dark", for example, or the one where (spoiler) the only earth artifact
remaining is a Disney film (I can't recall the title at the moment).

"History Lesson." _Startling Stories_, May 1949. (I have it in a
falling-apart Conklin omnibus.) There are actually a few other
artifacts in the cairn, but it's the Donald Duck ("with its
characteristic expression of arrogant bad temper") opus that the
Venusians find most interesting.

Post by a425couple
For
the matter of that the original story "The Sentinal" before it was used
to craft _2001_ was not exactly all light.

Yes; you could compare its darker interpretation to Leinster's
_The Black Galaxy_ (also _Startling Stories), March 1949, later
reprinted as a "Galaxy Novel", 1954).

[David DeLaney]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by d***@gmail.com
For the matter of that the original story "The Sentinal" before it was used
to craft _2001_ was not exactly all light.

Yes; you could compare its darker interpretation to Leinster's
_The Black Galaxy_ (also _Startling Stories), March 1949, later
reprinted as a "Galaxy Novel", 1954).

And dare we forget _The Star_?

Dave, I know I can't

[William Hyde]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by William Hyde

Post by a425couple
Over in my old thread, "OT opinion - Sorry Nerds--",
"desiege" mentioned "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke
That is one I had never heard of and it was not in my books.
It was quite interesting.
http://www.gdhsenglish.com/thompson/assets/pdfs/ENG3U1%20pdf's/Short%20Stories/BEFORE%20EDEN.pdf
http://youtu.be/XQHwIdST2PQ
http://thescifidigest.blogspot.com/2012/04/before-eden-arthur-c-clarke.html
"Before Eden - Arthur C. Clarke
Clarke's Before Eden starts as any generic planetary exploration
would. Two men from an expedition who investigate the polar regions
of Venus and find the less harsh atmosphere ready for the evolution
of life. But has it already? The plot takes through a vivid
scientific expedition that visualizes barren Venusian landscape
and something even more curious, a moving shape that hints at
early evolution.
The story's success is that it doesn't tread a cliched path, but
instead takes the reader by surprise in the very last paragraph."
or
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22608644-before-eden
one comment is "One of the overlooked gems of Clarke's oeuvre.
A very atmospheric first contact story, with a really unexpected
(and cautionary) twist ending. Though the past or present existence
of life on Venus is a big enigma, this is a great bit of hard SF on
the topic. Read it (or listen to it) with an open mind and you'll
be pleasantly surprised."

In 1961 Clarke published three stories which are (IMO) very good, and quite different from his usual work.
"Before Eden" "Death and the Senator" and "Hate" take a darker view of the world than Clarke generally did, before or after. This doesn't - as far as I know, correlate with any negative event in Clarke' life.
Perhaps is was a conscious attempt to expand his range as a writer. If so, it worked. He might have gone on in this vein, but the next year he caught Polio, and soon after that 2001 began to take up most of his fiction writing time.
William Hyde

I would argue that "Breaking Strain" is at least as dark as

You are quite correct in that Clarke wrote other dark stories. Aside from the ones you mentioned, there is another ("The Ancient Enemy"?) in which the ice ages come again. And another in which it's implied that humans use supernovae as a weapon of war.

Then of course there's "The Star".

But these three, all substantial stories published in the same year, made an impression on me.

I tend to think of Clarke the short story writer more as the author of "The Road to the Sea", "A meeting with Medusa", "Rescue Party" and so on. But as you show, he's very often darker than that. I'm surprised that I forgot that.

William Hyde

[f***@gmail.com]

Hi all

I did a quick Google and found the text for this story (the Internet is AWESOME that way!). The ending is almost the exact opposite of what I remembered from reading it somewhere in between '89 and '92. I.e.: the trash left behind by the disappointed humans contains the phosphorus that allows Venus's native life forms to finally achieve the critical mass they need to (one day) take over the planet.

Did Clarke write an alternative version, or did someone else do a similar story? Or is this another alt-story I hallucinated?

Regards
Frank

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by f***@gmail.com
Hi all
I did a quick Google and found the text for this story (the Internet is AWESOME that way!). The ending is almost the exact opposite of what I remembered from reading it somewhere in between '89 and '92. I.e.: the trash left behind by the disappointed humans contains the phosphorus that allows Venus's native life forms to finally achieve the critical mass they need to (one day) take over the planet.
Did Clarke write an alternative version, or did someone else do a similar story? Or is this another alt-story I hallucinated?

I haven't read your version! But with that said:
do you definitely (think you) remember phosphorus,
specifically? Just wondering.

[f***@gmail.com]

Greets to all and Robert in particular

I (almost definitely) remember phosphorus being the mentioned, as well
as some component (compound) of polystyrene.

The humans depart disappointed because the South Pole of Venus was the
last place on the planet that could theoretically support life, and
all they found was interesting chemistry but no 'life'. I also (I think) remember that without the promise of life to investigate there is (apparently) no reason for further exploring Venus and manned space flight to the planet will be abandoned.

I remember thinking at the time that it was awfully irresponsible for
biologists of all people to go around leaving their trash lying
around.

For what its worth the version of the story I remember was in the same
collection as a story about stranded astronauts finally managing to
seed a planet with life when the last member of the crew lies down to die in his pre-prepared grave . I think the same book also contained Surface Tension (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_Tension_(short_story), which
at the time impressed me greatly.

That said this won't be the first time I've hallucinated / remembered
a story that no one else has read or can remember. Which makes me
think I might have wandered into this reality from a nearby almost
parallel universe. ;-) What other conclusions could I reach?

Regards
Frank

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by f***@gmail.com
Greets to all and Robert in particular
I (almost definitely) remember phosphorus being the mentioned, as well
as some component (compound) of polystyrene.
The humans depart disappointed because the South Pole of Venus was the
last place on the planet that could theoretically support life, and
all they found was interesting chemistry but no 'life'. I also (I think) remember that without the promise of life to investigate there is (apparently) no reason for further exploring Venus and manned space flight to the planet will be abandoned.
I remember thinking at the time that it was awfully irresponsible for
biologists of all people to go around leaving their trash lying
around.
For what its worth the version of the story I remember was in the same
collection as a story about stranded astronauts finally managing to
seed a planet with life when the last member of the crew lies down to die in his pre-prepared grave . I think the same book also contained Surface Tension (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_Tension_(short_story), which
at the time impressed me greatly.
That said this won't be the first time I've hallucinated / remembered
a story that no one else has read or can remember. Which makes me
think I might have wandered into this reality from a nearby almost
parallel universe. ;-) What other conclusions could I reach?
Regards
Frank

...What's the story solution in your universe to
"The Cold Equations"?

Apparently the writer and editor in this universe
had trouble producing the story ending that they wanted.

[f***@gmail.com]

Hi all

Post by Robert Carnegie
...What's the story solution in your universe to
"The Cold Equations"?
Apparently the writer and editor in this universe
had trouble producihng the story ending that they wanted.

It shames me to admit that I've never actually read "The Cold Equations".

I know the basic premise. I'm not sure what 'my universe' would have done with it. But I am a big fan of Kerbal Space Program (http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/) and encountering Cold Equations happens occassionally to Kerbals. Some times its unavoidably fatal (periapsis below the height of a planet's higher points) but at other times you can get your Kerbals to GOAP (Get Out and Push): literally you take your Kerbal out on an EVA and use the five units of monopropellant in his space suit's maneuvering thrusters to change the DeltaV of the vehicle he was in. When the suit's tanks are empty you get your Kerbal back on board and send him for another EVA. And his thrusters are magically back to full tanks. Over the course of numerous EVA any amount of DeltaV can be applied.

So maybe my universe would have had a MMU with thrusters that recharged off the solar panels and solar wind. Don't know, I'd have to find my way back there to find out.

Anyway, take care, and have fun.

Regards
Frank

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 02:11:25 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by f***@gmail.com
Greets to all and Robert in particular

...What's the story solution in your universe to
"The Cold Equations"?
Apparently the writer and editor in this universe
had trouble producing the story ending that they wanted.

Which is further complicated by the fact that Godwin swiped the idea
from a comic book story by Al Feldstein, "A Weighty Decision." He
felt that he wasn't plagiarizing because he changed the ending.

John Campbell, who didn't read comic books but saw what the proper
ending had to be, changed it back, and Godwin couldn't very well
explain at that point where he'd gotten the premise.

[Kevrob]

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 02:11:25 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by f***@gmail.com
Greets to all and Robert in particular

...What's the story solution in your universe to
"The Cold Equations"?
Apparently the writer and editor in this universe
had trouble producing the story ending that they wanted.

Which is further complicated by the fact that Godwin swiped the idea
from a comic book story by Al Feldstein, "A Weighty Decision." He
felt that he wasn't plagiarizing because he changed the ending.
John Campbell, who didn't read comic books but saw what the proper
ending had to be, changed it back, and Godwin couldn't very well
explain at that point where he'd gotten the premise.

EC Comics, hoist with own petard? They cribbed from so many,
with Ray Bradbury catching them at it, and asking for his royalty
checks! EC coughed up, and they struck a deal for official
adaptations.

https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-146/

Kevin R

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 02:11:25 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by f***@gmail.com
Greets to all and Robert in particular

...What's the story solution in your universe to
"The Cold Equations"?
Apparently the writer and editor in this universe
had trouble producing the story ending that they wanted.

Which is further complicated by the fact that Godwin swiped the idea
from a comic book story by Al Feldstein, "A Weighty Decision." He
felt that he wasn't plagiarizing because he changed the ending.
John Campbell, who didn't read comic books but saw what the proper
ending had to be, changed it back, and Godwin couldn't very well
explain at that point where he'd gotten the premise.

EC Comics, hoist with own petard? They cribbed from so many,
with Ray Bradbury catching them at it, and asking for his royalty
checks! EC coughed up, and they struck a deal for official
adaptations.
https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-146/

Yup. They never acknowledged swiping John Collier, though, and they
did that, too.

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by f***@gmail.com
Greets to all and Robert in particular
I (almost definitely) remember phosphorus being the mentioned, as well
as some component (compound) of polystyrene.
The humans depart disappointed because the South Pole of Venus was the
last place on the planet that could theoretically support life, and
all they found was interesting chemistry but no 'life'. I also (I think) remember that without the promise of life to investigate there is (apparently) no reason for further exploring Venus and manned space flight to the planet will be abandoned.
I remember thinking at the time that it was awfully irresponsible for
biologists of all people to go around leaving their trash lying
around.
For what its worth the version of the story I remember was in the same
collection as a story about stranded astronauts finally managing to
seed a planet with life when the last member of the crew lies down to die in his pre-prepared grave . I think the same book also contained Surface Tension (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_Tension_(short_story), which
at the time impressed me greatly.
That said this won't be the first time I've hallucinated / remembered
a story that no one else has read or can remember. Which makes me
think I might have wandered into this reality from a nearby almost
parallel universe. ;-) What other conclusions could I reach?

...What's the story solution in your universe to
"The Cold Equations"?
Apparently the writer and editor in this universe
had trouble producing the story ending that they wanted.

The world having retained knowledge of locks finds the girl trying to get into the ship and she's put in the brig

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by f***@gmail.com

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by f***@gmail.com
Greets to all and Robert in particular
I (almost definitely) remember phosphorus being the mentioned, as well
as some component (compound) of polystyrene.
The humans depart disappointed because the South Pole of Venus was the
last place on the planet that could theoretically support life, and
all they found was interesting chemistry but no 'life'. I also (I

think) remember that without the promise of life to investigate there is
(apparently) no reason for further exploring Venus and manned space
flight to the planet will be abandoned.

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by f***@gmail.com
I remember thinking at the time that it was awfully irresponsible for
biologists of all people to go around leaving their trash lying
around.
For what its worth the version of the story I remember was in the same
collection as a story about stranded astronauts finally managing to
seed a planet with life when the last member of the crew lies down

to die in his pre-prepared grave . I think the same book also contained
Surface Tension
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_Tension_(short_story), which

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by f***@gmail.com
at the time impressed me greatly.
That said this won't be the first time I've hallucinated / remembered
a story that no one else has read or can remember. Which makes me
think I might have wandered into this reality from a nearby almost
parallel universe. ;-) What other conclusions could I reach?

...What's the story solution in your universe to
"The Cold Equations"?
Apparently the writer and editor in this universe
had trouble producing the story ending that they wanted.

The world having retained knowledge of locks finds the girl trying to
get into the ship and she's put in the brig

Hey, maybe they lifted ship from Seattle originally.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by f***@gmail.com

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by f***@gmail.com
Greets to all and Robert in particular
I (almost definitely) remember phosphorus being the mentioned, as well
as some component (compound) of polystyrene.
The humans depart disappointed because the South Pole of Venus was the
last place on the planet that could theoretically support life, and
all they found was interesting chemistry but no 'life'. I also (I

think) remember that without the promise of life to investigate there is
(apparently) no reason for further exploring Venus and manned space
flight to the planet will be abandoned.

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by f***@gmail.com
I remember thinking at the time that it was awfully irresponsible for
biologists of all people to go around leaving their trash lying
around.
For what its worth the version of the story I remember was in the same
collection as a story about stranded astronauts finally managing to
seed a planet with life when the last member of the crew lies down

to die in his pre-prepared grave . I think the same book also contained
Surface Tension
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_Tension_(short_story), which

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by f***@gmail.com
at the time impressed me greatly.
That said this won't be the first time I've hallucinated / remembered
a story that no one else has read or can remember. Which makes me
think I might have wandered into this reality from a nearby almost
parallel universe. ;-) What other conclusions could I reach?

...What's the story solution in your universe to
"The Cold Equations"?
Apparently the writer and editor in this universe
had trouble producing the story ending that they wanted.

The world having retained knowledge of locks finds the girl trying to
get into the ship and she's put in the brig

A planetside brig, of course.

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by f***@gmail.com

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by f***@gmail.com
Greets to all and Robert in particular
I (almost definitely) remember phosphorus being the mentioned, as well
as some component (compound) of polystyrene.
The humans depart disappointed because the South Pole of Venus was the
last place on the planet that could theoretically support life, and
all they found was interesting chemistry but no 'life'. I also (I

think) remember that without the promise of life to investigate there is
(apparently) no reason for further exploring Venus and manned space
flight to the planet will be abandoned.

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by f***@gmail.com
I remember thinking at the time that it was awfully irresponsible for
biologists of all people to go around leaving their trash lying
around.
For what its worth the version of the story I remember was in the same
collection as a story about stranded astronauts finally managing to
seed a planet with life when the last member of the crew lies down

to die in his pre-prepared grave . I think the same book also contained
Surface Tension
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_Tension_(short_story), which

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by f***@gmail.com
at the time impressed me greatly.
That said this won't be the first time I've hallucinated / remembered
a story that no one else has read or can remember. Which makes me
think I might have wandered into this reality from a nearby almost
parallel universe. ;-) What other conclusions could I reach?

...What's the story solution in your universe to
"The Cold Equations"?
Apparently the writer and editor in this universe
had trouble producing the story ending that they wanted.

The world having retained knowledge of locks finds the girl trying to
get into the ship and she's put in the brig

A planetside brig, of course.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

The girl was legitimately on the ship, en route to a more developed and safer colony. She stowed away on the small shuttle delivering essential supplies (medicine IIRC) to the outpost where her brother was stationed, and the shuttle did not have enough reserve delta-V to land safely with her added mass.

No reason why the door/hatch to the shuttle was not fitted with a lock or require a keycode was given in the story, odd because this happened often enough that there was a standard procedure for reporting the capture and execution of stowaways.

My personal spin, this was devised as a form of Darwin award: anyone foolish enough to stow away is automatically eliminated from the gene pool. Callous but effective.

-DES

[a425couple]

----snip

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by Robert Carnegie
...What's the story solution in your universe to
"The Cold Equations"?
Apparently the writer and editor in this universe
had trouble producing the story ending that they wanted.

The world having retained knowledge of locks finds the girl trying to
get into the ship and she's put in the brig

A planetside brig, of course.

The girl was legitimately on the ship, en route to a more developed and safer colony. She stowed away on the small shuttle delivering essential supplies (medicine IIRC) to the outpost where her brother was stationed, and the shuttle did not have enough reserve delta-V to land safely with her added mass.
No reason why the door/hatch to the shuttle was not fitted with a lock or require a keycode was given in the story, odd because this happened often enough that there was a standard procedure for reporting the capture and execution of stowaways.
My personal spin, this was devised as a form of Darwin award: anyone foolish enough to stow away is automatically eliminated from the gene pool. Callous but effective.

I believe, that somewhere, Heinlein also discussed the
situation with a female stow away on a space ship,
just rules of physics and simple math.
No way to be sympathetic.
They must be ejected.

[a425couple]

Post by a425couple
----snip

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by Robert Carnegie
...What's the story solution in your universe to
"The Cold Equations"?
Apparently the writer and editor in this universe
had trouble producing the story ending that they wanted.

The world having retained knowledge of locks finds the girl trying to
get into the ship and she's put in the brig

A planetside brig, of course.

The girl was legitimately on the ship, en route to a more developed
and safer colony. She stowed away on the small shuttle delivering
essential supplies (medicine IIRC) to the outpost where her brother
was stationed, and the shuttle did not have enough reserve delta-V to
land safely with her added mass.
No reason why the door/hatch to the shuttle was not fitted with a lock
or require a keycode was given in the story, odd because this happened
often enough that there was a standard procedure for reporting the
capture and execution of stowaways.
My personal spin, this was devised as a form of Darwin award: anyone
foolish enough to stow away is automatically eliminated from the gene
pool. Callous but effective.

I believe, that somewhere, Heinlein also discussed the
situation with a female stow away on a space ship,
just rules of physics and simple math.
No way to be sympathetic.
They must be ejected.

I now believe that Heinlein thought of mine was wrong. Sorry!

But meanwhile, there are 2 move / TV shows of that story.

from
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/60272/man-is-piloting-small-cargo-ship-with-young-woman-stow-away/60274

Man is piloting small cargo ship with young woman stow-away

Several years ago, my wife and I were flipping through channels and came
across the end of a movie that looked somewhat interesting, and I've
always wanted to watch the rest of it. The only scene I saw was this: A
man is piloting some sort of small cargo ship (I'm guessing) in space,
and he has found a young woman stow-away. He is trying to land the ship
(or something) and, for some reason, the woman being on the ship is
throwing off the mass just enough so as to cause a catastrophic failure.
Knowing that the only way for the ship to survive is for her to not be
on it, she puts herself into some sort of ejection chamber and shoots
herself into the oblivion of space. If I remember correctly, the ship is
rather dark and somewhat "cluttered" inside.

Unfortunately, that's about all I can remember from the movie. If anyone
has any ideas, I'd appreciate it.

Can anyone tell me the name of this movie?
-----------------

15
down vote
accepted
It sounds like you're describing "The Cold Equations" by Tom Godwin.

Barton explains that her presence dooms the mission by exceeding the
weight limit, and the subsequent crash would kill both of them and doom
the colonists awaiting the medical supplies. After contacting her
brother for the last moments of her life, Marilyn willingly walks into
the airlock and is ejected into space.

The story has been adapted repeatedly but you're probably describing the
1996 made-for-TV version;


It sounds like you're describing "The Cold Equations" by Tom Godwin.

Barton explains that her presence dooms the mission by exceeding the
weight limit, and the subsequent crash would kill both of them and doom
the colonists awaiting the medical supplies. After contacting her
brother for the last moments of her life, Marilyn willingly walks into
the airlock and is ejected into space.

The story has been adapted repeatedly but you're probably describing the
1996 made-for-TV version;
(push button to play! -- Does not work)
or the Twilight Zone version which has a more "cluttered" feel to it;
(push button to play! -- Does not work)

---------------------
@Richard Wow. Thanks for all the references. This looks like it might be
it. I'll have to do some more looking at it when I get home. –
G_Hosa_Phat Jun 27 '14 at 22:13
5
Might be a nice story, but the premise has a fatal flaw: no spaceship
that big (i.e. large enough to walk around in) will be so mass-critical
that a 50kg imbalance will crash it. Maneuvering engines will burn the
girl's mass in fuel in a fraction of a second. Toss a couple of those
CRT monitors out the hatch instead. – paul Jun 28 '14 at 11:20
@paul - Or a chair. – Valorum Jun 28 '14 at 11:29
@paul - The text makes it clear that he spaces her because 1) It's the
law ("Any stowaway discovered in an EDS shall be jettisoned immediately
following discovery") and 2) because the fuel calculations are "very
precise and accurate and omitted nothing" – Valorum Jun 28 '14 at 11:36
8
@Richard - #2 is my complaint. If you really are that precise, you have
left zero margin for, say, leaks. In that case, you jettison the idiot
engineers who designed the thing. – paul Jun 29 '14 at 2:10
show 2 more comments
up vote
8
down vote
The 1954 short story The Cold Equations by Tom Godwin has been adapted
for television several times. Among those are an episode of The Twilight
Zone and a full length version in 1996 for the Sci-Fi Channel.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B074XKSWBG
Wow! It is Poppy Montgomery!!
(Does she bite her lip and brush her red hair out of her eye?)

It looks like I could watch the 95 minute long movie
from my computer right now! Free!!
(we have amazon prime!)

--------------------------------
Is Eric Flint somehow connected with this?
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS744US749&biw=1920&bih=943&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=bvyNW_3zE6GMjwSw_KTgDQ&q=The+Cold+Equations+Poppy+Montgomery&oq=The+Cold+Equations+Poppy+Montgomery&gs_l=img.3...39693.41475..44635...0.0..0.102.757.7j1......1....1..gws-wiz-img.DEK5xlYpDzs#imgdii=icsHUNA5mrfFFM:&imgrc=CSvW-fNwOkEX4M:

-------------------
here is the Twighlight Zone one 40 minutes (?)
Twilight Zone 3x16 The Cold Equations

[Jack Bohn]

***@gmail.com wrote:

[memories of a story that's not "Before Eden"]

Post by f***@gmail.com
For what its worth the version of the story I remember was in the same
collection as a story about stranded astronauts finally managing to
seed a planet with life when the last member of the crew lies down to die in his pre-prepared grave .

That would be Asimov's "Founding Father".

Post by f***@gmail.com
I think the same book also contained Surface Tension (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_Tension_(short_story), which
at the time impressed me greatly.

Wow, that would make a great themed anthology, if the other stories also follow this theme. I can't quite articulate the theme, but I offer the title _Hard Life_ for such a collection. I hope there's room for Bester's "Adam and No Eve" in such a book.

[Kevrob]

Post by f***@gmail.com
Greets to all and Robert in particular
I (almost definitely) remember phosphorus being the mentioned, as well
as some component (compound) of polystyrene.
The humans depart disappointed because the South Pole of Venus was the
last place on the planet that could theoretically support life, and
all they found was interesting chemistry but no 'life'. I also (I think) remember that without the promise of life to investigate there is (apparently) no reason for further exploring Venus and manned space flight to the planet will be abandoned.
I remember thinking at the time that it was awfully irresponsible for
biologists of all people to go around leaving their trash lying
around.
For what its worth the version of the story I remember was in the same
collection as a story about stranded astronauts finally managing to
seed a planet with life when the last member of the crew lies down to die in his pre-prepared grave . I think the same book also contained Surface Tension (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_Tension_(short_story), which
at the time impressed me greatly.
That said this won't be the first time I've hallucinated / remembered
a story that no one else has read or can remember. Which makes me
think I might have wandered into this reality from a nearby almost
parallel universe. ;-) What other conclusions could I reach?

The "Gardner Fox"* of DC Comics' "Earth-One" was supposedly getting info
about "Earth-Two" events and writing stories about the original
FLASH in FLASH COMICS and ALL_FLASH during the 1940s. He never
"wandered over," but his "internal antenna" was "picking up the signals.

* http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?1305 for "Gardner Fox" of
Earth-This-Here_Reality .

Kevin R

[Robert Carnegie]

Of course polystyrene is made from styrene. Possibly
nothing but styrene, but, confusingly, its Wikipedia
article has nineteenth century chemists calling it
"styrol", and its polymer (or one of several that
apparently you can get) "styrol oxide". That implies
added oxygen but then that seems to be a nineteenth
crntury misunderstanding?

[Michael F. Stemper]

Post by f***@gmail.com
Greets to all and Robert in particular
I (almost definitely) remember phosphorus being the mentioned, as well
as some component (compound) of polystyrene.

Correct:

"[...] Somewhere close at hand was the most precious of all the
foods it needed -- phosphorous, the element without which the
spark of life could never ignite. [...]"

Post by f***@gmail.com
The humans depart disappointed because the South Pole of Venus was the
last place on the planet that could theoretically support life, and
all they found was interesting chemistry but no 'life'.

Less than correct:
"[...] They could see now that the creature [...]"

"[...] The sensitive edge of the huge plant-thing [...] The
creature flowed steadily [...]"

"[...] This world around them was no longer the same; Venus
was no longer dead -- it had joined Earth and Mars."

"[...] Meanwhile, he must guard and cherish the life he
found, whether it be on Earth or Mars or Venus."

"[...] As the carpet crawled back to the lake, it carried
contagion to all its world."

"Even as the _Morning Star_ set course for her distant home,
Venus was dying. [...]"

Post by f***@gmail.com
I also (I think) remember that without the promise of life to investigate there is (apparently) no reason for further exploring Venus and manned space flight to the planet will be abandoned.

Also a little bit off:

"No matter; in a few months they would be back with a team of
assistants, far more adequately equipped an with the eyes of
the world upon them. Evolution had labored a million years to
make this meeting possible; it could wait a little longer."

Post by f***@gmail.com
I remember thinking at the time that it was awfully irresponsible for
biologists of all people to go around leaving their trash lying
around.

Absolutely. I'd guess that Clarke felt that way, as well.

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by f***@gmail.com
Greets to all and Robert in particular
I (almost definitely) remember phosphorus being the mentioned, as well
as some component (compound) of polystyrene.

"[...] Somewhere close at hand was the most precious of all the
foods it needed -- phosphorous, the element without which the
spark of life could never ignite. [...]"

Post by f***@gmail.com
The humans depart disappointed because the South Pole of Venus was the
last place on the planet that could theoretically support life, and
all they found was interesting chemistry but no 'life'.

"[...] They could see now that the creature [...]"
"[...] The sensitive edge of the huge plant-thing [...] The
creature flowed steadily [...]"
"[...] This world around them was no longer the same; Venus
was no longer dead -- it had joined Earth and Mars."
"[...] Meanwhile, he must guard and cherish the life he
found, whether it be on Earth or Mars or Venus."
"[...] As the carpet crawled back to the lake, it carried
contagion to all its world."
"Even as the _Morning Star_ set course for her distant home,
Venus was dying. [...]"

Post by f***@gmail.com
I also (I think) remember that without the promise of life to investigate there is (apparently) no reason for further exploring Venus and manned space flight to the planet will be abandoned.

"No matter; in a few months they would be back with a team of
assistants, far more adequately equipped an with the eyes of
the world upon them. Evolution had labored a million years to
make this meeting possible; it could wait a little longer."

Post by f***@gmail.com
I remember thinking at the time that it was awfully irresponsible for
biologists of all people to go around leaving their trash lying
around.

Absolutely. I'd guess that Clarke felt that way, as well.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Zechariah 7:10

But the cost of the mission goes way up if they
have to ship their trash home!

That's my excuse :-)

I do use bins, but somebody still has to handle
the trash from bins. (On Venus, no bins, but
I'm not likely to go there.)

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by f***@gmail.com
Hi all
I did a quick Google and found the text for this story (the Internet is
AWESOME that way!). The ending is almost the exact opposite of what I
remembered from reading it somewhere in between '89 and '92. I.e.: the
trash left behind by the disappointed humans contains the phosphorus
that allows Venus's native life forms to finally achieve the critical
mass they need to (one day) take over the planet.
Did Clarke write an alternative version, or did someone else do a
similar story? Or is this another alt-story I hallucinated?

Well, no, but there's a film called "Allegro Non Troppo" that is
a painstaking, deft parody of Disney's "Fantasia." Instead of
the "Rite of Spring" segment with dinosaurs, it takes Ravel's
"Bolero" and begins the process of life on a previously lifeless
planet with the few bacteria and sugars left in a Coke bottle
discarded by a passing spaceship.

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by f***@gmail.com
Hi all
I did a quick Google and found the text for this story (the Internet is
AWESOME that way!). The ending is almost the exact opposite of what I
remembered from reading it somewhere in between '89 and '92. I.e.: the
trash left behind by the disappointed humans contains the phosphorus
that allows Venus's native life forms to finally achieve the critical
mass they need to (one day) take over the planet.
Did Clarke write an alternative version, or did someone else do a
similar story? Or is this another alt-story I hallucinated?

Well, no, but there's a film called "Allegro Non Troppo" that is
a painstaking, deft parody of Disney's "Fantasia." Instead of
the "Rite of Spring" segment with dinosaurs, it takes Ravel's
"Bolero" and begins the process of life on a previously lifeless
planet with the few bacteria and sugars left in a Coke bottle
discarded by a passing spaceship.

Hmm. I have read a short prose spoof of _2001_,
I forget by whom, in which the mysterious alien
objects found by ape-men and astronauts were
flying saucer trash, if only the strange writing
could be understood. I don't think they founded
life on earth though. Only civilisation, and I
suppose we followed their unintended guidance
pretty well.