Discussion:
PHEC London cabs booked
(too old to reply)
Recliner
2017-01-30 11:34:25 UTC
Permalink
From
<http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/green-is-the-new-black-as-cabs-go-electric-zsw09x0vs?shareToken=69253c87e03a17954a21109c3c08f0e9>

Extract:

Britain’s latest car plant — and the country’s first factory exclusively
building electric vehicles — is to open in Coventry in the spring as the
China-backed London Taxi Company rises from the ashes and begins production
on new battery-driven black cabs.

The new redesigned black cabs will go on sale by the end of the year as all
new taxis aiming to ply for trade in London will need to abide by strict
low-emissions rules from January 1, 2018.

LTC has been reborn from the buy-out by the Hangzhou-based Geely of London
Taxi International, which failed in the 2012 collapse of Manganese Bronze.
The factory, part of a $400 million project, will open its doors for the
first time on March 22.

The new plug-in hybrid electric cab — capable of running at least 70 miles
on a single electric charge but which will have a back-up petrol engine —
is aimed at replacing the 22,500-strong fleet of diesel cabs on the
capital’s roads.

…

The new vehicle’s success will in part depend on Transport for London and
other authorities honouring their commitments to putting in cab-dedicated,
fast-charging infrastructure. TfL has committed to installing 150 such
charging points by the end of next year.
tim...
2017-01-30 12:08:26 UTC
Permalink
"Recliner" <***@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:657346304.507468615.190793.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-september.org...

I saw this, I did wonder where it should be posted
Post by Recliner
The new plug-in hybrid electric cab — capable of running at least 70 miles
on a single electric charge
70 miles!!!

is that really enough
Post by Recliner
but which will have a back-up petrol engine —
If it has a back up engine it isn't zero emissions, is it?

I know you didn't post that, but the headline I saw, said it

tim
Recliner
2017-01-30 12:28:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
I saw this, I did wonder where it should be posted
The new plug-in hybrid electric cab — capable of running at least 70 miles
on a single electric charge
70 miles!!!
is that really enough
It's pretty good for a PHEV. To stay on the battery alone, it will
obviously need to recharge periodically during the day.
Post by tim...
but which will have a back-up petrol engine —
If it has a back up engine it isn't zero emissions, is it?
It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most
polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to
recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone.
Neil Williams
2017-01-30 12:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most
polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to
recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone.
That is quite a good interim model - would work for things like buses
and coaches too, as well as private cars.

I can see such an approach becoming mandatory in cities before long -
only zero-emission within the city zone, fire up the small, high-speed
turbocharged/supercharged petrol engine at optimum revs (probably that
rather than diesel) to charge up on the motorway, as until we get more
of our electricity generation onto renewables/nuclear there actually
isn't really a pollution increase by doing that over pure electric -
electric cars are really about removing pollution at the point of use
from cities.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
tim...
2017-01-30 16:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Recliner
It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most
polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to
recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone.
That is quite a good interim model -
seems an awful lot of money to be spending setting up a factory for an
interim model

by what is already a very small niche company

tim
Recliner
2017-01-30 16:59:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Recliner
It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most
polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to
recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone.
That is quite a good interim model -
seems an awful lot of money to be spending setting up a factory for an
interim model
The vehicle isn't the interim model.
Post by tim...
by what is already a very small niche company
Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"???

It's a multi-billion dollar corporation.
Neil Williams
2017-01-30 18:06:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
The vehicle isn't the interim model.
That kind of hybrid is; the long-term solution is a pure electric
vehicle when battery technology is good enough.

The factory, of course, will be able to switch.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
David Cantrell
2017-02-01 12:01:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Recliner
The vehicle isn't the interim model.
That kind of hybrid is; the long-term solution is a pure electric
vehicle when battery technology is good enough.
We don't know when it will be good enough. Or if it ever will be. We can
at least be fairly sure that it ain't gonna be any time in the next few
years.

So waiting until it is good enough is silly.
--
David Cantrell | Official London Perl Mongers Bad Influence

Languages for which ISO-Latin-$n is not necessary, #1 in a series:

Latin
tim...
2017-02-01 12:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Cantrell
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Recliner
The vehicle isn't the interim model.
That kind of hybrid is; the long-term solution is a pure electric
vehicle when battery technology is good enough.
We don't know when it will be good enough.
Ah,

we might not know

but TPTB do

otherwise they wouldn't have put in laws mandating use of 100% emission free
vehicles by <insert some date in, the not to distant, future>

If technology hasn't invented new battery technology by then, we will all be
breaking the law (or only allowed to drive cars with pathetic ranges)

tim
Recliner
2017-02-01 12:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by David Cantrell
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Recliner
The vehicle isn't the interim model.
That kind of hybrid is; the long-term solution is a pure electric
vehicle when battery technology is good enough.
We don't know when it will be good enough.
Ah,
we might not know
but TPTB do
otherwise they wouldn't have put in laws mandating use of 100% emission free
vehicles by <insert some date in, the not to distant, future>
If technology hasn't invented new battery technology by then, we will all be
breaking the law (or only allowed to drive cars with pathetic ranges)
How large is the zone where zero emissions is required?

If it's reasonably small, the PHEV could run with zero emissions
within it, but would be able to use its small petrol engine to
recharge outside it (assuming there aren't enough charging points,
which there should be soon).
tim...
2017-02-01 16:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by David Cantrell
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Recliner
The vehicle isn't the interim model.
That kind of hybrid is; the long-term solution is a pure electric
vehicle when battery technology is good enough.
We don't know when it will be good enough.
Ah,
we might not know
but TPTB do
otherwise they wouldn't have put in laws mandating use of 100% emission free
vehicles by <insert some date in, the not to distant, future>
If technology hasn't invented new battery technology by then, we will all be
breaking the law (or only allowed to drive cars with pathetic ranges)
How large is the zone where zero emissions is required?
I wasn't just referring to this law

NL is seriously considering decreeing that no "non zero emissions" cars will
be allowed in the whole of the country from 2025

Other European countries are considering similar restrictions over smaller
area
Post by Recliner
If it's reasonably small, the PHEV could run with zero emissions
within it, but would be able to use its small petrol engine to
recharge outside it (assuming there aren't enough charging points,
which there should be soon).
and how would you enforce "not using the engine" inside the zone?

It might work with taxis that can have equipment installed to regulate them

but it isn't going to work for every arrival in the city from the rest of
the UK/Europe

tim
Neil Williams
2017-02-01 17:12:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
and how would you enforce "not using the engine" inside the zone?
I know it's a bit old fashioned and quaint, but how's about we have
some of those "police officers" walking and driving around the place?
You know, the kind that would see a crime being committed and
investigate, and if necessary issue a ticket or conduct an arrest?

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
Recliner
2017-02-01 17:19:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Williams
Post by tim...
and how would you enforce "not using the engine" inside the zone?
I know it's a bit old fashioned and quaint, but how's about we have
some of those "police officers" walking and driving around the place?
You know, the kind that would see a crime being committed and
investigate, and if necessary issue a ticket or conduct an arrest?
I suspect that you could have automatic detectors that sniff out tailpipe
emissions from passing vehicles, and photograph them.
tim...
2017-02-01 18:53:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
and how would you enforce "not using the engine" inside the zone?
I know it's a bit old fashioned and quaint, but how's about we have some
of those "police officers" walking and driving around the place? You
know, the kind that would see a crime being committed and investigate, and
if necessary issue a ticket or conduct an arrest?
and when did you last see one of those?

tim
Recliner
2017-02-01 20:37:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by tim...
and how would you enforce "not using the engine" inside the zone?
I know it's a bit old fashioned and quaint, but how's about we have some
of those "police officers" walking and driving around the place? You
know, the kind that would see a crime being committed and investigate, and
if necessary issue a ticket or conduct an arrest?
and when did you last see one of those?
I agree, there would have to be automatic detectors. Maybe parking wardens
could also play a part.

Alsp, only vehicles capable of zero emissions would be allowed into the
zone. Others would either be banned or would have to pay a T Charge, as is
planned for central London.
Neil Williams
2017-02-01 12:36:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Cantrell
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Recliner
The vehicle isn't the interim model.
That kind of hybrid is; the long-term solution is a pure electric
vehicle when battery technology is good enough.
We don't know when it will be good enough. Or if it ever will be. We can
at least be fairly sure that it ain't gonna be any time in the next few
years.
So waiting until it is good enough is silly.
Who says to wait? That's precisely why an interim model is proposed.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
tim...
2017-01-30 19:45:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Recliner
It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most
polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to
recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone.
That is quite a good interim model -
seems an awful lot of money to be spending setting up a factory for an
interim model
The vehicle isn't the interim model.
Post by tim...
by what is already a very small niche company
Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"???
the market for "London" cabs is

tim
Recliner
2017-01-30 21:32:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Recliner
It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most
polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to
recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone.
That is quite a good interim model -
seems an awful lot of money to be spending setting up a factory for an
interim model
The vehicle isn't the interim model.
Post by tim...
by what is already a very small niche company
Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"???
the market for "London" cabs is
Yet again, you're misinformed. Do you really think a hard-headed Chinese
company would be investing so much just for the London market?
tim...
2017-01-31 09:55:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Recliner
It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most
polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to
recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone.
That is quite a good interim model -
seems an awful lot of money to be spending setting up a factory for an
interim model
The vehicle isn't the interim model.
Post by tim...
by what is already a very small niche company
Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"???
the market for "London" cabs is
Yet again, you're misinformed.
It's thousands per year

that us a niche market
Post by Recliner
Do you really think a hard-headed Chinese
company would be investing so much just for the London market?
I know that there are overseas sales, but they still don't stop it being a
niche market

tim
d***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-01-31 09:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"???
the market for "London" cabs is
tim
Not exclusive to London,

I used to see a lot of them in use around Southampton and other towns
around the South when I visited them frequently.
There was a period when catering for the disabled either by
legislation or good business practice became more prevalent that the
purchase of a London style cab enabled the operator to comply easily.
That market to an extent has been eroded as operators have since moved
on to people mover style vehicles but a quick scan of taxi ranks and
Station forecourts on google street view still shows some are still
using London style cabs.

G.Harman
tim...
2017-01-31 09:59:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"???
the market for "London" cabs is
tim
Not exclusive to London,
which is why it is in quotes

I was referring to London-style cabs,

not cabs that operate in London

I know that people elsewhere buy them, but they don't need to.

And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on zero-emission
R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is
more generic than a "London" cab.

tim
Recliner
2017-01-31 10:15:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"???
the market for "London" cabs is
tim
Not exclusive to London,
which is why it is in quotes
I was referring to London-style cabs,
not cabs that operate in London
I know that people elsewhere buy them, but they don't need to.
And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on zero-emission
R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is
more generic than a "London" cab.
Did you actually read the story that triggered this thread? It appears
not. You appear also to know nothing about Geely, which you ludicrously
described as a "very small niche company".

Sometimes it does help to know at least a little about a subject before
commenting…
s***@potato.field
2017-01-31 10:24:00 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 10:15:58 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on zero-emission
R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is
more generic than a "London" cab.
Did you actually read the story that triggered this thread? It appears
not. You appear also to know nothing about Geely, which you ludicrously
described as a "very small niche company".
For such a large company you'd think they could have designed something a
bit less utterly butt ugly than the horror that was presented the other day.

Is there some TfL requirement along with the turning circle that London taxi
designs are all done by the RNIB? The current design looks like Noddys car,
the metrocab was a box on wheels, the old TX was straight out the 1950s.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-01-31 11:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 10:15:58 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on zero-emission
R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is
more generic than a "London" cab.
Did you actually read the story that triggered this thread? It appears
not. You appear also to know nothing about Geely, which you ludicrously
described as a "very small niche company".
For such a large company you'd think they could have designed something a
bit less utterly butt ugly than the horror that was presented the other day.
It's an all-new design that was deliberately created to look like a
traditional London cab.

Quote:

The TX5 design concept captures the spirit of past generations of LTC
models and draws on more than sixty years of style that has made the
black cab and iconic sight on the streets of London. Senior vice
president of Geely design, Peter Horbury, told Auto Express: “The
brief was clear. It has to look like a London taxi.”

The new design uses a similarly vertical front grille, and rounded
headlights, with a more upright stance and chrome touches. While the
interior design is still under consideration, the six-seat layout has
been confirmed, alongside the large panoramic glass roof for a more
“premium experience.”

<http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/98450/new-2017-london-taxi-more-details-of-cleaner-tx5-hybrid-revealed>
Post by s***@potato.field
Is there some TfL requirement along with the turning circle that London taxi
designs are all done by the RNIB? The current design looks like Noddys car,
the metrocab was a box on wheels, the old TX was straight out the 1950s.
- The taxis are inevitably boxy, as the aim is to carry 5/6 passengers
plus some luggage using the least possible road space.

- They are upright because they travel too slowly for the drag
coefficient to matter.

- They need to be high enough for passengers to find it easy to get
into and out of. They also need to be high enough to have a flat
floor.

- They need a large grille as they spend a lot of time idling in
traffic, so they need lots of cooling air. The earlier TX4 model had
engine fires because of the lack of cooling air.

- They should look distinctive, so they're not confused with other
vehicles.

Factor all that in, and it's not surprising they look the way they do.
s***@potato.field
2017-01-31 12:41:54 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:50:26 +0000
Post by Recliner
The TX5 design concept captures the spirit of past generations of LTC
models and draws on more than sixty years of style that has made the
He's having a laugh. Clearly they have no concept of what style means.
Post by Recliner
The new design uses a similarly vertical front grille, and rounded
headlights, with a more upright stance and chrome touches. While the
Rounded headlights that look like cast offs from a 1990s toyota corolla.
Post by Recliner
- The taxis are inevitably boxy, as the aim is to carry 5/6 passengers
plus some luggage using the least possible road space.
The merc ones are boxy but still look good.
Post by Recliner
- They should look distinctive, so they're not confused with other
vehicles.
They manage in other countries with normal cars. I think the word "Taxi" on
the roof is the giveaway!
Post by Recliner
Factor all that in, and it's not surprising they look the way they do.
I disagree. They look the way they do because they probably spent a fiver
on the design.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-01-31 12:51:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:50:26 +0000
Post by Recliner
The TX5 design concept captures the spirit of past generations of LTC
models and draws on more than sixty years of style that has made the
He's having a laugh. Clearly they have no concept of what style means.
They look like timeless London taxis, which was the aim. They don't
look like contemporary private cars which will look dated in five
years.
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
The new design uses a similarly vertical front grille, and rounded
headlights, with a more upright stance and chrome touches. While the
Rounded headlights that look like cast offs from a 1990s toyota corolla.
They're modern LED lights.
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
- The taxis are inevitably boxy, as the aim is to carry 5/6 passengers
plus some luggage using the least possible road space.
The merc ones are boxy but still look good.
You're joking! They look like the vans they started off as.
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
- They should look distinctive, so they're not confused with other
vehicles.
They manage in other countries with normal cars. I think the word "Taxi" on
the roof is the giveaway!
Remember that we don't force taxis to all be the same colour in
London. London black cabs are just about colour but black these days,
so it's helpful if they have a familiar shape.
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Factor all that in, and it's not surprising they look the way they do.
I disagree. They look the way they do because they probably spent a fiver
on the design.
Perhaps you don't know that Peter Horbury is a very experienced,
respected car designer?
s***@potato.field
2017-01-31 13:57:16 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 12:51:06 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:50:26 +0000
Post by Recliner
The TX5 design concept captures the spirit of past generations of LTC
models and draws on more than sixty years of style that has made the
He's having a laugh. Clearly they have no concept of what style means.
They look like timeless London taxis, which was the aim. They don't
look like contemporary private cars which will look dated in five
years.
No you're right, they are like london taxis which look dated the moment
they roll off the production line.
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
The new design uses a similarly vertical front grille, and rounded
headlights, with a more upright stance and chrome touches. While the
Rounded headlights that look like cast offs from a 1990s toyota corolla.
They're modern LED lights.
Doesn't matter how they work, the exterior design is circa 1990s econobox.
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
The merc ones are boxy but still look good.
You're joking! They look like the vans they started off as.
Better a van than something noddy and Bigears drive around in. Spot the
resemblance?

Loading Image...
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
They manage in other countries with normal cars. I think the word "Taxi" on
the roof is the giveaway!
Remember that we don't force taxis to all be the same colour in
London. London black cabs are just about colour but black these days,
so it's helpful if they have a familiar shape.
I think you're clutching at straws here. Minicabs come in all shapes and
sizes but its not hard to spot one if its got the TfL roundal in the window.
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
I disagree. They look the way they do because they probably spent a fiver
on the design.
Perhaps you don't know that Peter Horbury is a very experienced,
respected car designer?
You genuinely think this vehicle looks good?

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/98450/new-2017-london-taxi-more-details-of
-cleaner-tx5-hybrid-revealed

Looking at it again I've noticed they've graced it with what looks like
wheelhubs from an austin maxi.

Sorry, its a fugly. But since its a near captive market they could have
designed it to look like captain cavemans piles and it would still sell
because the poor cabbies have little choice.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-01-31 14:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 12:51:06 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:50:26 +0000
Post by Recliner
The TX5 design concept captures the spirit of past generations of LTC
models and draws on more than sixty years of style that has made the
He's having a laugh. Clearly they have no concept of what style means.
They look like timeless London taxis, which was the aim. They don't
look like contemporary private cars which will look dated in five
years.
No you're right, they are like london taxis which look dated the moment
they roll off the production line.
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
The new design uses a similarly vertical front grille, and rounded
headlights, with a more upright stance and chrome touches. While the
Rounded headlights that look like cast offs from a 1990s toyota corolla.
They're modern LED lights.
Doesn't matter how they work, the exterior design is circa 1990s econobox.
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
The merc ones are boxy but still look good.
You're joking! They look like the vans they started off as.
Better a van than something noddy and Bigears drive around in. Spot the
resemblance?
http://www.vectis.co.uk/AuctionImages/92/473_l.jpg
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
They manage in other countries with normal cars. I think the word "Taxi" on
the roof is the giveaway!
Remember that we don't force taxis to all be the same colour in
London. London black cabs are just about colour but black these days,
so it's helpful if they have a familiar shape.
I think you're clutching at straws here. Minicabs come in all shapes and
sizes but its not hard to spot one if its got the TfL roundal in the window.
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
I disagree. They look the way they do because they probably spent a fiver
on the design.
Perhaps you don't know that Peter Horbury is a very experienced,
respected car designer?
You genuinely think this vehicle looks good?
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/98450/new-2017-london-taxi-more-details-of
-cleaner-tx5-hybrid-revealed
Looking at it again I've noticed they've graced it with what looks like
wheelhubs from an austin maxi.
Sorry, its a fugly. But since its a near captive market they could have
designed it to look like captain cavemans piles and it would still sell
because the poor cabbies have little choice.
Cabs are not chosen on the basis of looks, and no London cabs look good.
They're tools of business, and are chosen on the basis of lower costs,
better reliability, better resale value, capacity, etc. If these are the
only fully emissions compliant model that also complies with London's
strict taxi regulations, they'll sell well.
s***@potato.field
2017-01-31 16:39:46 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 14:32:21 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Cabs are not chosen on the basis of looks, and no London cabs look good.
They're tools of business, and are chosen on the basis of lower costs,
better reliability, better resale value, capacity, etc. If these are the
Sure, but you can say the same about trucks. But the manufacturers do make
some attempt to make them look a bit nicer than a box on wheels. This looks
like it was designed in 5 minutes on autocad.
Post by Recliner
only fully emissions compliant model that also complies with London's
strict taxi regulations, they'll sell well.
If you have a monopoly of course your stuff will sell well.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-01-31 17:20:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 14:32:21 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Cabs are not chosen on the basis of looks, and no London cabs look good.
They're tools of business, and are chosen on the basis of lower costs,
better reliability, better resale value, capacity, etc. If these are the
Sure, but you can say the same about trucks. But the manufacturers do make
some attempt to make them look a bit nicer than a box on wheels. This looks
like it was designed in 5 minutes on autocad.
More effort has gone into styling the TX5 than any of the other recent
London cabs, which do look just like boxes on wheels. It's the fact that it
actually has a distinctive style that allows people to have strong opinions
on it. It looks like someone actually made an effort to bring a classic
retro design up to date in an all-new model, as BMW did with the Mini, VW
with the Beetle, and Jaguar with the S-Type. All were controversial, with
some hating them and others loving them.

I'm sure Peter Horbury is desolate that a contract programmer hates it; no
doubt he'll destroy his Autocar "Designer of the Year" award in penitence.

On the other hand, it would be hard to have an opinion of the Vito, which
is just a boxy cargo van with windows, which wasn't designed as a taxi, let
alone a *London* taxi. Ford could have come up with a much better looking
taxi if it had cut some holes in a Transit body.

I much preferred the Metrocab, but that never got a second generation.
Basil Jet
2017-01-31 20:33:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:50:26 +0000
Post by Recliner
The TX5 design concept captures the spirit of past generations of LTC
models and draws on more than sixty years of style that has made the
He's having a laugh. Clearly they have no concept of what style means.
Post by Recliner
The new design uses a similarly vertical front grille, and rounded
headlights, with a more upright stance and chrome touches. While the
Rounded headlights that look like cast offs from a 1990s toyota corolla.
Post by Recliner
- The taxis are inevitably boxy, as the aim is to carry 5/6 passengers
plus some luggage using the least possible road space.
The merc ones are boxy but still look good.
Post by Recliner
- They should look distinctive, so they're not confused with other
vehicles.
They manage in other countries with normal cars. I think the word "Taxi" on
the roof is the giveaway!
Other countries perhaps don't have the same tradition of taxi drivers
helping each other in traffic, so don't need the vehicles to be
recognised by the tiniest bit of wing glimpsed in the corner of the eye.
s***@potato.field
2017-02-01 10:14:22 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 20:33:23 +0000
Post by Basil Jet
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:50:26 +0000
Post by Recliner
The TX5 design concept captures the spirit of past generations of LTC
models and draws on more than sixty years of style that has made the
He's having a laugh. Clearly they have no concept of what style means.
Post by Recliner
The new design uses a similarly vertical front grille, and rounded
headlights, with a more upright stance and chrome touches. While the
Rounded headlights that look like cast offs from a 1990s toyota corolla.
Post by Recliner
- The taxis are inevitably boxy, as the aim is to carry 5/6 passengers
plus some luggage using the least possible road space.
The merc ones are boxy but still look good.
Post by Recliner
- They should look distinctive, so they're not confused with other
vehicles.
They manage in other countries with normal cars. I think the word "Taxi" on
the roof is the giveaway!
Other countries perhaps don't have the same tradition of taxi drivers
helping each other in traffic, so don't need the vehicles to be
recognised by the tiniest bit of wing glimpsed in the corner of the eye.
You could be on to something there ;)

Of course the reality is - if taxis were required to look distinctive they'd
be bright yellow as in new york or white and green like brighton. Not black
which is almost invisible at night and blends into all the other vehicles in
the day.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-02-01 11:32:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 20:33:23 +0000
Post by Basil Jet
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:50:26 +0000
Post by Recliner
The TX5 design concept captures the spirit of past generations of LTC
models and draws on more than sixty years of style that has made the
He's having a laugh. Clearly they have no concept of what style means.
Post by Recliner
The new design uses a similarly vertical front grille, and rounded
headlights, with a more upright stance and chrome touches. While the
Rounded headlights that look like cast offs from a 1990s toyota corolla.
Post by Recliner
- The taxis are inevitably boxy, as the aim is to carry 5/6 passengers
plus some luggage using the least possible road space.
The merc ones are boxy but still look good.
Post by Recliner
- They should look distinctive, so they're not confused with other
vehicles.
They manage in other countries with normal cars. I think the word "Taxi" on
the roof is the giveaway!
Other countries perhaps don't have the same tradition of taxi drivers
helping each other in traffic, so don't need the vehicles to be
recognised by the tiniest bit of wing glimpsed in the corner of the eye.
You could be on to something there ;)
Of course the reality is - if taxis were required to look distinctive they'd
be bright yellow as in new york or white and green like brighton. Not black
which is almost invisible at night and blends into all the other vehicles in
the day.
Not many 'black cabs' are black!
David Cantrell
2017-02-01 12:18:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
- They need a large grille as they spend a lot of time idling in
traffic, so they need lots of cooling air. The earlier TX4 model had
engine fires because of the lack of cooling air.
I assume that with this one if it's not moving it won't be burning fuel,
just like a Prius.
--
David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire

In Victorian times, when every man wore a beard the size of a yew,
Britain ruled the world. In the early 20th century, when the beard
was trimmed to a moustache, we scraped through two world wars but
lost an empire. Today, when Mach3 Turbo multi-blades are the norm,
our national pride derives largely from beating the Swedes at
Olympic cycling.

Grow a beard. Your country needs you.
Neil Williams
2017-02-01 12:37:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Cantrell
Post by Recliner
- They need a large grille as they spend a lot of time idling in
traffic, so they need lots of cooling air. The earlier TX4 model had
engine fires because of the lack of cooling air.
I assume that with this one if it's not moving it won't be burning fuel,
just like a Prius.
And crawling in traffic it'll use electricity only, just like a Prius
(or Bozza bus).

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
Basil Jet
2017-01-31 20:26:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
Is there some TfL requirement along with the turning circle that London taxi
designs are all done by the RNIB? The current design looks like Noddys car,
the metrocab was a box on wheels, the old TX was straight out the 1950s.
What old TX? The TX1, TX2 and TX4 are indistinguishable to the cahual
glance. The Fairway was the last LTI taxi that looked different to the
current ones.
s***@potato.field
2017-02-01 10:12:48 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 20:26:59 +0000
Post by Basil Jet
Post by s***@potato.field
Is there some TfL requirement along with the turning circle that London taxi
designs are all done by the RNIB? The current design looks like Noddys car,
the metrocab was a box on wheels, the old TX was straight out the 1950s.
What old TX? The TX1, TX2 and TX4 are indistinguishable to the cahual
glance. The Fairway was the last LTI taxi that looked different to the
current ones.
Quite possibly, I have no idea, taxi models don't interest me. All I know is
the current model is pig ugly, its dixon of dock green era predecessor was
equally ugly, the metrocab was ugly and this latest one is the ugliest of
the lot.
--
Spud
David Cantrell
2017-02-01 12:13:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
For such a large company you'd think they could have designed something a
bit less utterly butt ugly than the horror that was presented the other day.
Have you not seen any cars manufactured by large companies recently?
--
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands,
hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken
s***@potato.field
2017-02-01 13:44:23 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 01 Feb 2017 12:13:56 +0000
Post by David Cantrell
Post by s***@potato.field
For such a large company you'd think they could have designed something a
bit less utterly butt ugly than the horror that was presented the other day.
Have you not seen any cars manufactured by large companies recently?
Yes, there are plenty of ugly vehicles out there. But usually its a one off
balls up by the company concerned. However taxis by LTI have been consistently
ugly for 50 years. Thats not a balls up, its complete indifference to any sort
of aesthetic appeal.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-02-02 11:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 01 Feb 2017 12:13:56 +0000
Post by David Cantrell
Post by s***@potato.field
For such a large company you'd think they could have designed something a
bit less utterly butt ugly than the horror that was presented the other day.
Have you not seen any cars manufactured by large companies recently?
Yes, there are plenty of ugly vehicles out there. But usually its a one off
balls up by the company concerned. However taxis by LTI have been consistently
ugly for 50 years. Thats not a balls up, its complete indifference to any sort
of aesthetic appeal.
Has it not occurred to you that not everyone shares your concept of
aesthetics?
s***@potato.field
2017-02-03 09:34:00 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 11:32:12 +0000
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 01 Feb 2017 12:13:56 +0000
Post by David Cantrell
Post by s***@potato.field
For such a large company you'd think they could have designed something a
bit less utterly butt ugly than the horror that was presented the other
day.
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by David Cantrell
Have you not seen any cars manufactured by large companies recently?
Yes, there are plenty of ugly vehicles out there. But usually its a one off
balls up by the company concerned. However taxis by LTI have been
consistently
Post by s***@potato.field
ugly for 50 years. Thats not a balls up, its complete indifference to any
sort
Post by s***@potato.field
of aesthetic appeal.
Has it not occurred to you that not everyone shares your concept of
aesthetics?
Given that its the interests of car manufacturers who actually have some
decent competition (unlike LTI) to make cars that people want to buy, I think
the style of modern cars tells you all you need to know. So while not everyone
shares my idea of style (fiat multipla still sold) I think I'm probably in the
majority and I very much doubt the majority of cabbies are happy paying a small
fortune for such a pig ugly vehicle.

--
Spud
Neil Williams
2017-02-03 11:10:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
Given that its the interests of car manufacturers who actually have some
decent competition (unlike LTI) to make cars that people want to buy, I think
the style of modern cars tells you all you need to know. So while not everyone
shares my idea of style (fiat multipla still sold) I think I'm probably in the
majority and I very much doubt the majority of cabbies are happy paying a small
fortune for such a pig ugly vehicle.
I think the "small fortune" is in some ways the issue. Really, the
Chevrolet Matiz (or an electric version thereof) would be ideal for
taxi use in the city carrying one passenger, as most of them do. In
India, that kind of thing is increasingly the norm.

You have to work out how to provide for wheelchair users, but having
every single taxi driving around the place sized like a small minibus
belching out diesel fumes on the off-chance of a wheelchair user
wanting it seems to me to be a ludicrous idea when we have the kind of
modern technology which could summon an accessible vehicle very easily
from a rather smaller pool sized to ensure availability of such
vehicles for the likely number of wheelchair users only.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
Roland Perry
2017-02-03 15:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Williams
I think the "small fortune" is in some ways the issue. Really, the
Chevrolet Matiz (or an electric version thereof) would be ideal for
taxi use in the city carrying one passenger, as most of them do. In
India, that kind of thing is increasingly the norm.
An improvement from a tuk-tuk then.
--
Roland Perry
Neil Williams
2017-02-04 16:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Neil Williams
I think the "small fortune" is in some ways the issue. Really, the
Chevrolet Matiz (or an electric version thereof) would be ideal for
taxi use in the city carrying one passenger, as most of them do. In
India, that kind of thing is increasingly the norm.
An improvement from a tuk-tuk then.
True :)

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
s***@potato.field
2017-02-06 09:31:05 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Feb 2017 11:10:58 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
Given that its the interests of car manufacturers who actually have some
decent competition (unlike LTI) to make cars that people want to buy, I think
the style of modern cars tells you all you need to know. So while not
everyone
Post by s***@potato.field
shares my idea of style (fiat multipla still sold) I think I'm probably in
the
Post by s***@potato.field
majority and I very much doubt the majority of cabbies are happy paying a
small
Post by s***@potato.field
fortune for such a pig ugly vehicle.
I think the "small fortune" is in some ways the issue. Really, the
Chevrolet Matiz (or an electric version thereof) would be ideal for
taxi use in the city carrying one passenger, as most of them do. In
India, that kind of thing is increasingly the norm.
You have to work out how to provide for wheelchair users, but having
every single taxi driving around the place sized like a small minibus
belching out diesel fumes on the off-chance of a wheelchair user
wanting it seems to me to be a ludicrous idea when we have the kind of
modern technology which could summon an accessible vehicle very easily
from a rather smaller pool sized to ensure availability of such
vehicles for the likely number of wheelchair users only.
I tend to agree. There could be some incentive for having a wheelchair friendly
taxi - being allowed to work longer hours or tax breaks perhaps - but forcing
all cabbies to drive around in these overpriced mechanical antiques seems
ridiculous.

Normal cars serve perfectly well as minicabs, there's no reason they couldn't
do the same as black cabs. And the whole turning circle thing its an anachronism
since on a lot of londons roads its a dangerous (or illegal) manouveur to make
anyway plus most normal cars could manage it too in all but the narrowest of
streets.
--
Spud
Basil Jet
2017-02-06 14:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
I tend to agree. There could be some incentive for having a wheelchair friendly
taxi - being allowed to work longer hours or tax breaks perhaps - but forcing
all cabbies to drive around in these overpriced mechanical antiques seems
ridiculous.
Cabbies currently have no limit on their hours.
Post by s***@potato.field
Normal cars serve perfectly well as minicabs, there's no reason they couldn't
do the same as black cabs. And the whole turning circle thing its an anachronism
since on a lot of londons roads its a dangerous (or illegal) manouveur to make
anyway plus most normal cars could manage it too in all but the narrowest of
streets.
Old Street east of Great Eastern Street is a permanent traffic jam at
night because of minicabs doing three-point turns. Extending that to all
of London all day doesn't sound like a good plan.

There is also the danger of allowing car-height vehicles in bus lanes...
you need to be able to see over most other vehicles in order to whiz
past a jam without killing pedestrians. Obviously there are mass
produced high vehicles that don't have the turning circle. I would be
interested to hear experience from outside London on this.
s***@potato.field
2017-02-06 16:41:23 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 14:57:47 +0000
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by s***@potato.field
I tend to agree. There could be some incentive for having a wheelchair
friendly
Post by s***@potato.field
taxi - being allowed to work longer hours or tax breaks perhaps - but forcing
all cabbies to drive around in these overpriced mechanical antiques seems
ridiculous.
Cabbies currently have no limit on their hours.
Fair enough, but flip it around then - if the cabbie wants to buy an
ordinary car with no disabled access then their hours per day are limited.
Post by s***@potato.field
Old Street east of Great Eastern Street is a permanent traffic jam at
night because of minicabs doing three-point turns. Extending that to all
Hmm, I'll take that with a pinch of salt. I suspect the minicabs are doing a
3 point turn because of the traffic jams, not causing them.
Post by s***@potato.field
There is also the danger of allowing car-height vehicles in bus lanes...
you need to be able to see over most other vehicles in order to whiz
past a jam without killing pedestrians. Obviously there are mass
Nah, not buying it. The driving position in a black cab isn't that much
higher than a normal car - certainly less than most 4x4s.
--
Spud
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-02-07 00:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 14:57:47 +0000
Post by Basil Jet
Post by s***@potato.field
I tend to agree. There could be some incentive for having a wheelchair
friendly taxi - being allowed to work longer hours or tax breaks
perhaps - but forcing all cabbies to drive around in these overpriced
mechanical antiques seems ridiculous.
Cabbies currently have no limit on their hours.
Fair enough, but flip it around then - if the cabbie wants to buy an
ordinary car with no disabled access then their hours per day are limited.
Under what legal provision would you achieve that?
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-02-07 01:05:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 14:57:47 +0000
Post by Basil Jet
Post by s***@potato.field
I tend to agree. There could be some incentive for having a wheelchair
friendly taxi - being allowed to work longer hours or tax breaks
perhaps - but forcing all cabbies to drive around in these overpriced
mechanical antiques seems ridiculous.
Cabbies currently have no limit on their hours.
Fair enough, but flip it around then - if the cabbie wants to buy an
ordinary car with no disabled access then their hours per day are limited.
Under what legal provision would you achieve that?
Plus, more than one driver can share one cab. That often happens in London.
s***@potato.field
2017-02-07 09:29:22 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 7 Feb 2017 01:05:54 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 14:57:47 +0000
Post by Basil Jet
Post by s***@potato.field
I tend to agree. There could be some incentive for having a wheelchair
friendly taxi - being allowed to work longer hours or tax breaks
perhaps - but forcing all cabbies to drive around in these overpriced
mechanical antiques seems ridiculous.
Cabbies currently have no limit on their hours.
Fair enough, but flip it around then - if the cabbie wants to buy an
ordinary car with no disabled access then their hours per day are limited.
Under what legal provision would you achieve that?
Plus, more than one driver can share one cab. That often happens in London.
Its the driver we're talking about, not the vehicle itself.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-02-07 09:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 7 Feb 2017 01:05:54 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 14:57:47 +0000
Post by Basil Jet
Post by s***@potato.field
I tend to agree. There could be some incentive for having a wheelchair
friendly taxi - being allowed to work longer hours or tax breaks
perhaps - but forcing all cabbies to drive around in these overpriced
mechanical antiques seems ridiculous.
Cabbies currently have no limit on their hours.
Fair enough, but flip it around then - if the cabbie wants to buy an
ordinary car with no disabled access then their hours per day are limited.
Under what legal provision would you achieve that?
Plus, more than one driver can share one cab. That often happens in London.
Its the driver we're talking about, not the vehicle itself.
Yes, but you couldn't realistically restrict any cabbie from working less
than, say, 45 hours per week, and you wouldn't want them working very much
longer than that. And if you're trying to encourage them to drive a more
expensive cab, it's the capital cost that's the issue. As many cabs are
usually shated by more than one driver, you can't realistically limit the
cab's hours either.

I think the only way to encourage the use of more expensive cabs is to
allow them to charge more, or for the state to subsidise the fares for the
disabled people who need the higher spec cabs.
s***@potato.field
2017-02-07 11:01:35 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 7 Feb 2017 09:49:58 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
Its the driver we're talking about, not the vehicle itself.
Yes, but you couldn't realistically restrict any cabbie from working less
than, say, 45 hours per week, and you wouldn't want them working very much
longer than that. And if you're trying to encourage them to drive a more
expensive cab, it's the capital cost that's the issue. As many cabs are
usually shated by more than one driver, you can't realistically limit the
cab's hours either.
How many hours the actual vehicle works is irrelevant. Allowing the drivers
to use normal cars if they wish but giving an incentive for them to drive
the more expensive disabled friendly vehicles is the problem.
Post by Recliner
I think the only way to encourage the use of more expensive cabs is to
allow them to charge more,
All that will happen then is that no one will flag down the more expensive
cabs apart from the disabled and the cabbies will go out of business.
Post by Recliner
or for the state to subsidise the fares for the
disabled people who need the higher spec cabs.
IMO the disabled should get subsidised fares on PT anyway. They're life is
difficult enough already.
--
Spud
David Cantrell
2017-02-09 11:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
IMO the disabled should get subsidised fares on PT anyway.
We do.

I sometimes think, though, that given the huge expense of making the bus
and train network wheelchair-friendly (yes, I know other disabilities
exist, and this this also helps other groups) making transport
disabled-accessible might have been better done by just giving
wheelchair users massively subsidised taxi fares. That probably wouldn't
cost any more, and would actually mean that the whole city was opened up
to them instead of just those bits where installing lifts and things
wasn't too difficult.
--
David Cantrell | even more awesome than a panda-fur coat

You can't spell "slaughter" without "laughter"
Neil Williams
2017-02-09 13:09:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Cantrell
I sometimes think, though, that given the huge expense of making the bus
and train network wheelchair-friendly (yes, I know other disabilities
exist, and this this also helps other groups) making transport
disabled-accessible might have been better done by just giving
wheelchair users massively subsidised taxi fares. That probably wouldn't
cost any more, and would actually mean that the whole city was opened up
to them instead of just those bits where installing lifts and things
wasn't too difficult.
That has certainly occurred to me. As has just making the deal on cars
better - if I were in a wheelchair and could drive a modified car,
that's what I would do for every journey except the kind of very local
one where I would probably, if able, wheel myself as a substitute for
walking. I wouldn't want to use public transport, as it would be a
massive nuisance. There are comparatively few such people compared
with the general population, and ensuring they have the freedom to
drive and park easily would not be much of an overhead.

As one example, the railway is put off building more stations due to
massive costs of lifts, ramps etc. Why not be allowed to build basic
"passive" stations, provided it does save substantial money not
providing access[1] and provided an accessible taxi on demand to the
nearest accessible station is always provided (at the rail fare that
would have been paid were the station accessible) should any wheelchair
user wish to travel?

I wouldn't argue for a main station to be devoid of lifts, but a
low-demand rural one?

[1] If you were building a two-platform station accessed from a road at
one end with a level crossing, it would for example be stupid not to
just make the end ramps shallower so suitable for a wheelchair, as it'd
cost next to nothing.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
tim...
2017-02-07 19:00:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 7 Feb 2017 01:05:54 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 14:57:47 +0000
Post by Basil Jet
Post by s***@potato.field
I tend to agree. There could be some incentive for having a wheelchair
friendly taxi - being allowed to work longer hours or tax breaks
perhaps - but forcing all cabbies to drive around in these overpriced
mechanical antiques seems ridiculous.
Cabbies currently have no limit on their hours.
Fair enough, but flip it around then - if the cabbie wants to buy an
ordinary car with no disabled access then their hours per day are limited.
Under what legal provision would you achieve that?
Plus, more than one driver can share one cab. That often happens in London.
Its the driver we're talking about, not the vehicle itself.
Yes, but you couldn't realistically restrict any cabbie from working less
than, say, 45 hours per week, and you wouldn't want them working very much
longer than that. And if you're trying to encourage them to drive a more
expensive cab, it's the capital cost that's the issue. As many cabs are
usually shated
ITYF most drivers are pretty upset if their cab is shated

tim
s***@potato.field
2017-02-07 09:28:08 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 18:09:55 -0600
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 14:57:47 +0000
Post by Basil Jet
Post by s***@potato.field
I tend to agree. There could be some incentive for having a wheelchair
friendly taxi - being allowed to work longer hours or tax breaks
perhaps - but forcing all cabbies to drive around in these overpriced
mechanical antiques seems ridiculous.
Cabbies currently have no limit on their hours.
Fair enough, but flip it around then - if the cabbie wants to buy an
ordinary car with no disabled access then their hours per day are limited.
Under what legal provision would you achieve that?
Are laws cast in stone? No. Where there's a will etc ...

Anyway, there are already laws about the max hours truckers and bus drivers
can do , it could easily be extended to cab drivers.
--
Spud
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-02-07 11:52:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 18:09:55 -0600
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 14:57:47 +0000
Post by Basil Jet
Post by s***@potato.field
I tend to agree. There could be some incentive for having a
wheelchair friendly taxi - being allowed to work longer hours or tax
breaks perhaps - but forcing all cabbies to drive around in these
overpriced mechanical antiques seems ridiculous.
Cabbies currently have no limit on their hours.
Fair enough, but flip it around then - if the cabbie wants to buy an
ordinary car with no disabled access then their hours per day are limited.
Under what legal provision would you achieve that?
Are laws cast in stone? No. Where there's a will etc ...
Anyway, there are already laws about the max hours truckers and bus
drivers can do , it could easily be extended to cab drivers.
The record on updating taxi law isn't good. Much of it still dates back to
1847.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
tim...
2017-02-07 19:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 18:09:55 -0600
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 14:57:47 +0000
Post by Basil Jet
Post by s***@potato.field
I tend to agree. There could be some incentive for having a
wheelchair friendly taxi - being allowed to work longer hours or tax
breaks perhaps - but forcing all cabbies to drive around in these
overpriced mechanical antiques seems ridiculous.
Cabbies currently have no limit on their hours.
Fair enough, but flip it around then - if the cabbie wants to buy an
ordinary car with no disabled access then their hours per day are limited.
Under what legal provision would you achieve that?
Are laws cast in stone? No. Where there's a will etc ...
Anyway, there are already laws about the max hours truckers and bus
drivers can do , it could easily be extended to cab drivers.
The record on updating taxi law isn't good. Much of it still dates back to
1847.
is that why, elsewhere, there is a discussion about bales of hay?

tim
tim...
2017-01-31 10:32:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"???
the market for "London" cabs is
tim
Not exclusive to London,
which is why it is in quotes
I was referring to London-style cabs,
not cabs that operate in London
I know that people elsewhere buy them, but they don't need to.
And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on zero-emission
R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is
more generic than a "London" cab.
I read a different newspaper article saying something similar
Post by Recliner
It appears
not. You appear also to know nothing about Geely, which you ludicrously
described as a "very small niche company".
OK I made the mistake of forgetting that it had been bought by a large
conglomerate

but nevertheless the market for this vehicle is small and niche

It's all very well the parent company having the funds to pay for this, but
companies usually expect each of their product sectors to survive on their
own sales, not be subsidised by the wealth of daddy.

And I don't believe that this little niche can support the R&D needed to
develop a zero emissions vehicle. It is a development based upon the "hope"
that they can expand sales into more regions than they have now.

and when the competition is from a more generic vehicle (that can be used
elsewhere as a taxi), I don't believe that they will achieve that.
Post by Recliner
Sometimes it does help to know at least a little about a subject before
commenting…
I know at least as much as the majority here

I have actually worked for a company (working towards) producing an electric
vehicle (so I know exactly how over-hyped it is)
Recliner
2017-01-31 11:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"???
the market for "London" cabs is
tim
Not exclusive to London,
which is why it is in quotes
I was referring to London-style cabs,
not cabs that operate in London
I know that people elsewhere buy them, but they don't need to.
And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on zero-emission
R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is
more generic than a "London" cab.
I read a different newspaper article saying something similar
Post by Recliner
It appears
not. You appear also to know nothing about Geely, which you ludicrously
described as a "very small niche company".
OK I made the mistake of forgetting that it had been bought by a large
conglomerate
Not just bought by, but completely recreated by. The new TX5 shares
nothing with the old black cabs. That was the whole point of the
story. As I said, it pays to know at least a little about something
you comment on, and to at least read the story.
Post by tim...
but nevertheless the market for this vehicle is small and niche
It's all very well the parent company having the funds to pay for this, but
companies usually expect each of their product sectors to survive on their
own sales, not be subsidised by the wealth of daddy.
Do you really think a Chinese company plans to subsidise a small UK
offshoot factory long-term?

Guess what, it plans to make money from it, just as it is doing with
its other little European offshoot you appear to have forgotten or
knew nothing about.

Quote:

Gubbey joined LTC last year, with a long global automotive background
including stints at Ford and General Motors. He has ambitions beyond
the UK’s capital with the TX5, and discussions are underway with a
number of European cities.

“It is important that this is also rolled out across Europe, as there
has been a considerable investment for this project”, Gubbey said.

“These will be very tough markets to get into, though – they are very
nationalistic. But London as a city is not unique in wanting to
improve local air quality”.

<http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/98450/new-2017-london-taxi-more-details-of-cleaner-tx5-hybrid-revealed>
Post by tim...
And I don't believe that this little niche can support the R&D needed to
develop a zero emissions vehicle. It is a development based upon the "hope"
that they can expand sales into more regions than they have now.
What on earth makes you think that the hybrid tech in the TX5 has been
developed specially for it??? Geely isn't mad, and one of its other
subsidiaries has been involved in developing hybrid cars for years.

<http://www.motortrend.com/news/geely-to-use-volvo-plug-in-hybrid-technology-through-new-tech-sharing-agreement-178305/>

The tech is obviously shared not only with the tens of thousands of
other vehicles to be made each year in the same factory, but also with
Geely's many other hybrid vehicles.

Quote:

"Geely invested more than 1 billion Yuan (HK$1.19 billion) in
developing the new hybrid powertrain and was willing to share the
technology with other carmakers in a bid to promote the use of green
vehicles, Li said.
…

The powertrains are currently produced by a joint venture, China
Hybrid System, in Changsha, Hunan province. The plant can churn out 1
million powertrains annually."

<http://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/1921668/geely-start-mass-production-vehicles-using-new-hybrid-powertrain>


Quote from the original article you failed to read:

"Geely will also begin production next year of electric vans for the
UK and European market. The plant at Ansty, north of Coventry, will
have an annual production capacity of 36,000, the vast majority of
vehicles being hybrid electric vans."

As for the technology, it rather obviously comes from Geely, and
wasn't developed in Coventry. Geely has been selling electric vehicles
in China since 2015.
Post by tim...
and when the competition is from a more generic vehicle (that can be used
elsewhere as a taxi), I don't believe that they will achieve that.
Ah, based on your obvious expertise in the automotive industry?
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Sometimes it does help to know at least a little about a subject before
commenting…
I know at least as much as the majority here
They tend not to make such uninformed comments on subjects they know
nothing about.
Post by tim...
I have actually worked for a company (working towards) producing an electric
vehicle (so I know exactly how over-hyped it is)
Ah, so you obviously must know much more than poor, deluded Geely that
has blown over £120m on its idiotic PHEV venture. Perhaps instead of
wasting time here you should be selling your valuable expertise to
those novices in China?

<https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-18/geely-plans-hybrid-electric-versions-for-90-of-models-by-2020>
tim...
2017-01-31 12:07:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"???
the market for "London" cabs is
tim
Not exclusive to London,
which is why it is in quotes
I was referring to London-style cabs,
not cabs that operate in London
I know that people elsewhere buy them, but they don't need to.
And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on
zero-emission
R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is
more generic than a "London" cab.
I read a different newspaper article saying something similar
Post by Recliner
It appears
not. You appear also to know nothing about Geely, which you ludicrously
described as a "very small niche company".
OK I made the mistake of forgetting that it had been bought by a large
conglomerate
Not just bought by, but completely recreated by. The new TX5 shares
nothing with the old black cabs. That was the whole point of the
story. As I said, it pays to know at least a little about something
you comment on, and to at least read the story.
Post by tim...
but nevertheless the market for this vehicle is small and niche
It's all very well the parent company having the funds to pay for this, but
companies usually expect each of their product sectors to survive on their
own sales, not be subsidised by the wealth of daddy.
Do you really think a Chinese company plans to subsidise a small UK
offshoot factory long-term?
Guess what, it plans to make money from it,
and Sinclair planned to make money out of the C5
Post by Recliner
just as it is doing with
Just as he had managed with his previous products

tim
Recliner
2017-01-31 12:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"???
the market for "London" cabs is
tim
Not exclusive to London,
which is why it is in quotes
I was referring to London-style cabs,
not cabs that operate in London
I know that people elsewhere buy them, but they don't need to.
And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on zero-emission
R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is
more generic than a "London" cab.
I read a different newspaper article saying something similar
Post by Recliner
It appears
not. You appear also to know nothing about Geely, which you ludicrously
described as a "very small niche company".
OK I made the mistake of forgetting that it had been bought by a large
conglomerate
Not just bought by, but completely recreated by. The new TX5 shares
nothing with the old black cabs. That was the whole point of the
story. As I said, it pays to know at least a little about something
you comment on, and to at least read the story.
Post by tim...
but nevertheless the market for this vehicle is small and niche
It's all very well the parent company having the funds to pay for this, but
companies usually expect each of their product sectors to survive on their
own sales, not be subsidised by the wealth of daddy.
Do you really think a Chinese company plans to subsidise a small UK
offshoot factory long-term?
Guess what, it plans to make money from it,
and Sinclair planned to make money out of the C5
So you think Geely is like Sinclair? Jeez!
tim...
2017-01-31 13:33:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
and Sinclair planned to make money out of the C5
So you think Geely is like Sinclair? Jeez!
No, I'm saying that you can't just blindly believe what companies say is
"going" to happen with their new product (or whatever).

There are many more examples I could have used, I just chose that one

See the thread elsewhere about 3D-TV.

how many companies bet the ranch on that?

(and mini-cd before it etc etc)

tim
Recliner
2017-01-31 17:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
and Sinclair planned to make money out of the C5
So you think Geely is like Sinclair? Jeez!
No, I'm saying that you can't just blindly believe what companies say is
"going" to happen with their new product (or whatever).
Sinclair was a ridiculous example to choose. It was best known for making
cheap radios, and then cheap little home computers. It then came up with a
ridiculously over-hyped, battery-assisted pedal trike, to be made in a
washing machine factory. Everyone thought it was a joke from the beginning.

Geely is a serious, large and successful vehicle manufacturer that has had
years of experience of hybrid cars. It's expecting to build a million cars
this year.

As probably don't know, as you appear to avoid reading, it saved Volvo. Why
you think that the C5 is a relevant example in that context, I cannot
imagine.
Post by tim...
There are many more examples I could have used, I just chose that one
See the thread elsewhere about 3D-TV.
how many companies bet the ranch on that?
Did any? My TV can show 3D, but I hardly used it when I first got it, and
soon gave up on it. but Samsung seems to have survived.
Post by tim...
(and mini-cd before it etc etc)
Which companies failed on that?
Guy Gorton
2017-01-31 17:27:16 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 12:10:57 +0000, Recliner
Post by Recliner
So you think Geely is like Sinclair? Jeez!
If you don't like what tim... contributes to this ng, why don't you
just ignore it.

Guy Gorton
tim...
2017-02-01 09:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Gorton
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 12:10:57 +0000, Recliner
Post by Recliner
So you think Geely is like Sinclair? Jeez!
If you don't like what tim... contributes to this ng, why don't you
just ignore it.
That's no good

he would be able to rudely insult me when he disagrees, if he did that

(not for the first time, in case you haven't noticed)

tim
David Cantrell
2017-02-01 12:09:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on zero-emission
R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is
more generic than a "London" cab.
There's no real research needed for a plug-in hybrid. And the owners
aren't going to do any research purely for the London cab market,
they're going to do it for cars in general, a small fraction of which
will be London-style cabs. Once you've done the research, making and
bolting together appropriately shaped batteries and motors is relatively
straightforward.

The only real spanner in the works that I can foresee is if the Wonder
Miracle Battery (tm) has specific size and shape requirements.
--
David Cantrell | Pope | First Church of the Symmetrical Internet

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands,
hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken
Recliner
2017-02-01 12:57:06 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 01 Feb 2017 12:09:50 +0000, David Cantrell
Post by David Cantrell
Post by tim...
And ISTM that if you are going to have to spend billions on zero-emission
R&D that is more likely to be profitable if the product you are making is
more generic than a "London" cab.
There's no real research needed for a plug-in hybrid. And the owners
aren't going to do any research purely for the London cab market,
they're going to do it for cars in general, a small fraction of which
will be London-style cabs. Once you've done the research, making and
bolting together appropriately shaped batteries and motors is relatively
straightforward.
The only real spanner in the works that I can foresee is if the Wonder
Miracle Battery (tm) has specific size and shape requirements.
The battery pack will consist of a slab of lots of small cells that
will probably be placed under the floor, just as with Teslas, the
forthcoming Jaguar I-Pace, etc. It'll be easy to do with a high floor
taxi.
tim...
2017-01-30 16:46:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
I saw this, I did wonder where it should be posted
The new plug-in hybrid electric cab - capable of running at least 70
miles
on a single electric charge
70 miles!!!
is that really enough
It's pretty good for a PHEV.
I meant

is that enough for a taxi
Post by Recliner
To stay on the battery alone, it will
obviously need to recharge periodically during the day.
Post by tim...
but which will have a back-up petrol engine -
If it has a back up engine it isn't zero emissions, is it?
It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most
polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to
recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone.
but that wasn't the claim

tim
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-01-31 00:58:58 UTC
Permalink
In article
ember.org...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Recliner
It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most
polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to
recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone.
That is quite a good interim model -
seems an awful lot of money to be spending setting up a factory for an
interim model
The vehicle isn't the interim model.
Post by tim...
by what is already a very small niche company
Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"???
the market for "London" cabs is
Yet again, you're misinformed. Do you really think a hard-headed Chinese
company would be investing so much just for the London market?
I know quite a few Cambridge taxis are "London" cabs but how big is the
out-of-London market?
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-01-31 01:18:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
In article
ember.org...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Recliner
It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most
polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to
recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone.
That is quite a good interim model -
seems an awful lot of money to be spending setting up a factory for an
interim model
The vehicle isn't the interim model.
Post by tim...
by what is already a very small niche company
Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"???
the market for "London" cabs is
Yet again, you're misinformed. Do you really think a hard-headed Chinese
company would be investing so much just for the London market?
I know quite a few Cambridge taxis are "London" cabs but how big is the
out-of-London market?
Think out-of-UK market:

"Cabs made by the London Taxi Company are already exported to markets as
diverse as Azerbaijan, Australia and several countries in the Middle East."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/20/london-taxi-maker-greener-cabs-hybrid-tx5

http://www.carscoops.com/2016/03/geely-to-sell-london-taxis-in-australia.html
Recliner
2017-01-31 12:00:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
In article
ember.org...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Recliner
It may have a zero emissions (battery-only) mode for use in the most
polluted areas. The petrol engine would be used, if needed, to
recharge the battery outside the zero emissions zone.
That is quite a good interim model -
seems an awful lot of money to be spending setting up a factory for an
interim model
The vehicle isn't the interim model.
Post by tim...
by what is already a very small niche company
Do you really think Geely is "a very small niche company"???
the market for "London" cabs is
Yet again, you're misinformed. Do you really think a hard-headed Chinese
company would be investing so much just for the London market?
I know quite a few Cambridge taxis are "London" cabs but how big is the
out-of-London market?
"The TX4 taxi can be seen in service in Bahrain, Baku, Berlin, Cairo,
Charleston (South Carolina), Hangzhou, Hudson (Massachusetts),
Johannesburg, Las Vegas, Nanjing, Ottawa, Perth (Australia), Pristina,
Riyadh, Singapore, and Zhuhai"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TX4#TX4_Worldwide

The new high tech TX5 should be much more attractive for export
markets, given its PHEV powertrain and modern lightweight aluminium
structure with composite panelling body (the older London black cabs
were based on an ancient ladder frame chassis with a separate body and
a solid rear axle).
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-01-31 15:04:26 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Recliner
Cabs are not chosen on the basis of looks, and no London cabs look good.
They're tools of business, and are chosen on the basis of lower costs,
better reliability, better resale value, capacity, etc. If these are the
only fully emissions compliant model that also complies with London's
strict taxi regulations, they'll sell well.
Will there be a low emissions replacement for the Vito or have Mercedes
given up competing?
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Paul Cummins
2017-01-31 21:33:00 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Recliner
More effort has gone into styling the TX5 than any of the other
recent London cabs, which do look just like boxes on wheels.
Really?

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.carbodypanels4u.c
o.uk%2Fmedia%2Fcatalog%2Fcategory%2FVEH2026.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fww
w.carbodypanels4u.co.uk%2Faustin%2Ftx1-taxi%2Faustin-tx1-taxi-1997-2002&do
cid=X_f9lXA_JOr3tM&tbnid=BFHqnj9vaEq46M%3A&vet=1&w=640&h=431&bih=638&biw=1
366&q=TX1&ved=0ahUKEwjRo_Cmqu3RAhXmI8AKHfUCBoMQMwgfKAMwAw&iact=mrc&uact=8

That doesn't look like a box on wheels to me.

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcar-from-uk.com%2Febay
%2Fcarphotos%2Ffull%2Febay759669.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcar-from-uk.co
m%2Fsale.php%3Fid%3D85213&docid=Y-aWT0AEs_kHVM&tbnid=_5AFfyZSjkFT_M%3A&vet
=1&w=1066&h=800&bih=638&biw=1366&q=fx4%20cab&ved=0ahUKEwjchqe6qu3RAhWMDMAK
HVxvBK4QMwgiKAgwCA&iact=mrc&uact=8

Nor does that
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Please Help us dispose of unwanted virtual currency:
Bitcoin: 1LzAJBqzoaEudhsZ14W7YrdYSmLZ5m1seZ
Recliner
2017-01-31 21:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
In article
Post by Recliner
More effort has gone into styling the TX5 than any of the other
recent London cabs, which do look just like boxes on wheels.
Really?
https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.carbodypanels4u.c
o.uk%2Fmedia%2Fcatalog%2Fcategory%2FVEH2026.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fww
w.carbodypanels4u.co.uk%2Faustin%2Ftx1-taxi%2Faustin-tx1-taxi-1997-2002&do
cid=X_f9lXA_JOr3tM&tbnid=BFHqnj9vaEq46M%3A&vet=1&w=640&h=431&bih=638&biw=1
366&q=TX1&ved=0ahUKEwjRo_Cmqu3RAhXmI8AKHfUCBoMQMwgfKAMwAw&iact=mrc&uact=8
That doesn't look like a box on wheels to me.
https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcar-from-uk.com%2Febay
%2Fcarphotos%2Ffull%2Febay759669.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcar-from-uk.co
m%2Fsale.php%3Fid%3D85213&docid=Y-aWT0AEs_kHVM&tbnid=_5AFfyZSjkFT_M%3A&vet
=1&w=1066&h=800&bih=638&biw=1366&q=fx4%20cab&ved=0ahUKEwjchqe6qu3RAhWMDMAK
HVxvBK4QMwgiKAgwCA&iact=mrc&uact=8
Nor does that
Those URLs aren't clickable. But from looking at the URL, it seems the
first is the TX1, and I agree that it isn't a box on wheels. Nor is it a
'recent' cab. I've no idea what the second link points to.

I was referring to ugly things like the Mercedes Vito and the Nissan NV200
(which is, I gather, 'delayed').
Paul Cummins
2017-01-31 23:32:00 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Recliner
I was referring to ugly things like the Mercedes Vito and the
Nissan NV200
(which is, I gather, 'delayed').
They aren;t London Taxis.

The FX, TX, Metrocab and Asquith are the London taxis
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Please Help us dispose of unwanted virtual currency:
Bitcoin: 1LzAJBqzoaEudhsZ14W7YrdYSmLZ5m1seZ
Recliner
2017-01-31 23:38:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
In article
Post by Recliner
I was referring to ugly things like the Mercedes Vito and the
Nissan NV200
(which is, I gather, 'delayed').
They aren;t London Taxis.
But unfortunately they're used as London taxis, even though they originated
elsewhere.
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The FX, TX, Metrocab and Asquith are the London taxis
Agreed, and it wasn't them I described as boxes on wheels.
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