RIP Boris Bus

Post by Roland Perry
<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sadiq-khan-london-mayor-
boris-bus-scrap-boris-johnson-legacy-double-decker-routemasters-
a7505391.html>

The headline is a bit of an exaggeration, and it's really a non-story on a
quiet news day: we already knew no more of them were to be ordered, and
Sadiq isn't actually getting rid of the delivered fleet.

D A Stocks

2017-01-03 00:37:35 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sadiq-khan-london-mayor-
boris-bus-scrap-boris-johnson-legacy-double-decker-routemasters-
a7505391.html>

I am assuming London is stuck with the NRMs until they are scrapped. At
least the bendies were a standard design that could be sold to other UK bus
operators; we have some of them in Brighton & Hove.

--
DAS

s***@potato.field

2017-01-03 09:36:45 UTC

On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 00:37:35 -0000

er.org...

Post by Roland Perry
<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sadiq-khan-london-mayor-
boris-bus-scrap-boris-johnson-legacy-double-decker-routemasters-
a7505391.html>

I am assuming London is stuck with the NRMs until they are scrapped. At
least the bendies were a standard design that could be sold to other UK bus
operators; we have some of them in Brighton & Hove.

It does seem to be history repeating itself. Boris didn't like the bendies
giving some spurious nonsense about them being a danger to cyclists (or more
likely because they were Kens idea) and now Kahn has decided the roastmasters
are a poor choice. Which to be fair, they are.

I suppose if you're mayor of western europes largest city but you really don't
have much power, buses seem to be the bit where you can leave your legacy.

--
Spud

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2017-01-03 13:18:22 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
It does seem to be history repeating itself. Boris didn't like the bendies
giving some spurious nonsense about them being a danger to cyclists
(or more likely because they were Kens idea) and now Kahn has decided
the roastmasters are a poor choice. Which to be fair, they are.

Speaking as a cyclist I hated the bendies. They were so long they were very
hard to navigate round and they kept cutting in on one.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

s***@potato.field

2017-01-03 15:31:19 UTC

On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 07:18:22 -0600

Speaking as a cyclist I hated the bendies. They were so long they were very
hard to navigate round and they kept cutting in on one.

So treat them like an HGV. Problem solved. They have them all over europe
without thousands of dead cyclists littering the roads. As someone who has
taken a pushchair on a double decker on number of occasions its a fecking
nightmare - half the bus is out of bounds. God knows what the disabled think of
the bloody things. Quite why we're so wedded to having 2 storey vehicles in
this country is anyones guess.

--
Spud

Someone Somewhere

2017-01-03 16:11:43 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 07:18:22 -0600

Speaking as a cyclist I hated the bendies. They were so long they were very
hard to navigate round and they kept cutting in on one.

Wasn't the problem more (from my experience) that the road design in
London is unsuited to large numbers of such long vehicles - ie the
distance between traffic lights and other obstacles to road progress was
not a reasonable multiple of bendies long so if (when!) the service
bunched up or many routes served a road then they caused more congestion
than would reasonably be expected or presented an impediment to progress
- whether that be themselves, other motorists or pedestrians.

That, allied to their reputation as a "free bus" and the consequential
crush loading on certain services (25 anyone?), was what made them
undesirable than the supposed risk to cyclists (which was unproven) and
their flammability (which was fixed and never caused an injury anyway).

s***@potato.field

2017-01-03 16:24:18 UTC

On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 16:11:43 +0000

Post by Someone Somewhere

Post by s***@potato.field
So treat them like an HGV. Problem solved. They have them all over europe
without thousands of dead cyclists littering the roads. As someone who has
taken a pushchair on a double decker on number of occasions its a fecking
nightmare - half the bus is out of bounds. God knows what the disabled think

Post by s***@potato.field
the bloody things. Quite why we're so wedded to having 2 storey vehicles in
this country is anyones guess.

Possibly. OTOH they carried ~150 passengers compared to about 80 on a DD and
they weren't close to being twice as long, so they carried more passengers per
metre of road space used.

Post by Someone Somewhere
That, allied to their reputation as a "free bus" and the consequential
crush loading on certain services (25 anyone?), was what made them

More random ticket inspections would have sorted that problem. You don't get
mass fare evasion on the gateless DLR because they do frequent checks. But of
course that means hiring people and TfL don't like doing that. Unless its for
management positions of course.

Post by Someone Somewhere
undesirable than the supposed risk to cyclists (which was unproven) and

Quite so. Just lots of lycra louts whining when they found out that riding up
the inside of an articulated vehicle turning left turned out to be a bad idea.
Who knew? (Well, everyone with some basic common sense which excludes a lot
of cyclists it seems).

Post by Someone Somewhere
their flammability (which was fixed and never caused an injury anyway).

And a lot of them ended up happily working in the heat in Malta. Ironic.

--
Spud

Recliner

2017-01-03 17:01:14 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 16:11:43 +0000

Post by Someone Somewhere

Post by s***@potato.field
the bloody things. Quite why we're so wedded to having 2 storey vehicles in
this country is anyones guess.

Possibly. OTOH they carried ~150 passengers compared to about 80 on a DD and
they weren't close to being twice as long, so they carried more passengers per
metre of road space used.

Post by Someone Somewhere
That, allied to their reputation as a "free bus" and the consequential
crush loading on certain services (25 anyone?), was what made them

Post by Someone Somewhere
undesirable than the supposed risk to cyclists (which was unproven) and

Post by Someone Somewhere
their flammability (which was fixed and never caused an injury anyway).

And a lot of them ended up happily working in the heat in Malta. Ironic.

Not happily. They had more fires and were soon taken off the road. They've
new been sent to somewhere hotter still: Sudan.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/bendy-buses-sent-from-london-to-malta-taken-off-their-roads-after-three-burst-into-flames-8788929.html

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20140218/local/bendy-buses-to-be-shipped-to-sudan.507334http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20140218/local/bendy-buses-to-be-shipped-to-sudan.507334

Neil Williams

2017-01-03 23:17:43 UTC

Post by Recliner
Not happily. They had more fires and were soon taken off the road. They've
new been sent to somewhere hotter still: Sudan.

Luton Airport also seem to have a number of them, with Arriva
interiors, and modified to have doors on both sides.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

s***@potato.field

2017-01-04 10:34:41 UTC

On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 17:01:14 -0000 (UTC)

Post by s***@potato.field
And a lot of them ended up happily working in the heat in Malta. Ironic.

Not happily. They had more fires and were soon taken off the road. They've
new been sent to somewhere hotter still: Sudan.
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20140218/local/bendy-buses-to-be-ship
ed-to-sudan.507334http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20140218/local/bend
-buses-to-be-shipped-to-sudan.507334

"Experts concluded that the fires were caused by the conditions the buses were
subjected to on Maltaâs roads, as well as an element of poor maintenance."

I'm guessing the cooling wasn't designed for a hot country and coupled with
cheapskate maintenance and presumably no fix being applied before they were
shipped from London...

Running them in Africa, what could possibly go wrong? Still, the local islamist
nutters may see an opportunity there with self immolating buses.

--
Spud

Someone Somewhere

2017-01-04 12:10:33 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 17:01:14 -0000 (UTC)

Post by s***@potato.field
And a lot of them ended up happily working in the heat in Malta. Ironic.

"Experts concluded that the fires were caused by the conditions the buses were
subjected to on Maltaâ€™s roads, as well as an element of poor maintenance."
I'm guessing the cooling wasn't designed for a hot country and coupled with
cheapskate maintenance and presumably no fix being applied before they were
shipped from London...
Running them in Africa, what could possibly go wrong? Still, the local islamist
nutters may see an opportunity there with self immolating buses.

I also note the following concluding line:

In offering the buses for sale, Transport Malta had laid down that they
cannot be returned to Malta’s roads, because of the congestion they caused.

So it's not just London where bendy buses are unwelcome due to congestion...

s***@potato.field

2017-01-04 12:36:37 UTC

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 12:10:33 +0000

Post by Someone Somewhere
In offering the buses for sale, Transport Malta had laid down that they
cannot be returned to Maltas roads, because of the congestion they caused.
So it's not just London where bendy buses are unwelcome due to congestion...

What causes more congestion, 2 double deckers or one bendy? I'm guessing you
don't visit Oxford street very often.

--
Spud

Neil Williams

2017-01-04 12:40:22 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
What causes more congestion, 2 double deckers or one bendy? I'm guessing you
don't visit Oxford street very often.

Oxford Street's transport arrangement is a joke. In a civilised
country it'd have a single tram route and no taxis.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

s***@potato.field

2017-01-04 16:44:17 UTC

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 12:40:22 +0000

Post by Neil Williams

Post by s***@potato.field
What causes more congestion, 2 double deckers or one bendy? I'm guessing you
don't visit Oxford street very often.

Oxford Street's transport arrangement is a joke. In a civilised
country it'd have a single tram route and no taxis.

Can't disagree with that.

--
Spud

Robin9

2017-01-05 23:49:07 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
What causes more congestion, 2 double deckers or one bendy? I'
guessing yo
don't visit Oxford street very often.
Oxford Street's transport arrangement is a joke. In a civilised
country it'd have a single tram route and no taxis
Neil
https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/west-end-bus-changes

--
Robin9

s***@potato.field

2017-01-06 10:54:30 UTC

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 00:49:07 +0100

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/west-end-bus-changes/

"London is growing, with an estimated 10 million people expected to live here
by the early 2030s"

10 million already live in commuting distance. Presumably they mean within

the london boroughs - well good luck with that given the lack of housing.
Hopefully some politician will find a pair of balls after Brexit and actually
do something about mass immigration tho given a large proportion of immigration
is from non EU countries which we do have control over yet do nothing about
I won't hold my breath.

--
Spud

Roland Perry

2017-01-06 11:03:59 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
"London is growing, with an estimated 10 million people expected to live here
by the early 2030s"

10 million already live in commuting distance. Presumably they mean within

the london boroughs

Isn't "commuting distance" usually reckoned to be an hour from a London
Rail Terminus? Although 10m is far too small for that.

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2017-01-06 11:13:58 UTC

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 11:03:59 +0000

Post by s***@potato.field
"London is growing, with an estimated 10 million people expected to live here
by the early 2030s"

10 million already live in commuting distance. Presumably they mean within

the london boroughs

Isn't "commuting distance" usually reckoned to be an hour from a London
Rail Terminus? Although 10m is far too small for that.

Don't know, but isn't there something like 20-25 million in london and the home
counties?

--
Spud

Roland Perry

2017-01-06 12:23:13 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
"London is growing, with an estimated 10 million people expected to live here
by the early 2030s"

10 million already live in commuting distance. Presumably they mean within

the london boroughs

Isn't "commuting distance" usually reckoned to be an hour from a London
Rail Terminus? Although 10m is far too small for that.

Don't know,

The 1hr is true.

Post by s***@potato.field
but isn't there something like 20-25 million in london and the home
counties?

8.5m in Great London today, so the extra 1.5m will be easily mopped up
by the boroughs which encircle it.

--
Roland Perry

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2017-01-06 19:45:07 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
"London is growing, with an estimated 10 million people expected to
live here by the early 2030s"

10 million already live in commuting distance. Presumably they mean
within the london boroughs

Isn't "commuting distance" usually reckoned to be an hour from a London
Rail Terminus? Although 10m is far too small for that.

Don't know,

The 1hr is true.

Ely within 1 hour?

Post by s***@potato.field
but isn't there something like 20-25 million in london and the home
counties?

8.5m in Great London today, so the extra 1.5m will be easily mopped
up by the boroughs which encircle it.

I assume the discussion is about the Greater London population. Hopefully
Spud won't get his wish if he wants enough people to be working to pay for
his pension.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Roland Perry

2017-01-07 08:49:28 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
"London is growing, with an estimated 10 million people expected to
live here by the early 2030s"

10 million already live in commuting distance. Presumably they mean
within the london boroughs

Isn't "commuting distance" usually reckoned to be an hour from a London
Rail Terminus? Although 10m is far too small for that.

Don't know,

The 1hr is true.

Ely within 1 hour?

Of Cambridge, yes. And while there are London commuters from Ely and
further north, it's not a huge number. Ely generates 450k trips a year
to London[1] (a tenth of that from Cambridge). That's all passengers,
and my finger in the wind for Ely is that less than half will be
commuters.

Post by s***@potato.field
but isn't there something like 20-25 million in london and the home
counties?

8.5m in Great London today, so the extra 1.5m will be easily mopped
up by the boroughs which encircle it.

I assume the discussion is about the Greater London population. Hopefully
Spud won't get his wish if he wants enough people to be working to pay for
his pension.

[1] That's Kings Cross plus Liverpool St plus Thameslink core
destinations.

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2017-01-10 09:55:00 UTC

On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 13:45:07 -0600

Post by s***@potato.field
"London is growing, with an estimated 10 million people expected to
live here by the early 2030s"

10 million already live in commuting distance. Presumably they mean
within the london boroughs

Isn't "commuting distance" usually reckoned to be an hour from a London
Rail Terminus? Although 10m is far too small for that.

Don't know,

The 1hr is true.

Ely within 1 hour?

Post by s***@potato.field
but isn't there something like 20-25 million in london and the home
counties?

8.5m in Great London today, so the extra 1.5m will be easily mopped
up by the boroughs which encircle it.

I assume the discussion is about the Greater London population. Hopefully
Spud won't get his wish if he wants enough people to be working to pay for
his pension.

I pay for a private pension, I don't require the next generation to do it for me
thanks. Also that whole paying pensions argument falls apart since it appears
to require a constantly increasing working age population which is completely
unsustainable, so better to bite the bullet now and halt population growth
rather than wreck the country then STILL have to deal with the problem of
pensions at a later date anyway.

--
Spud

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2017-01-10 11:44:44 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 13:45:07 -0600

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I assume the discussion is about the Greater London population. Hopefully
Spud won't get his wish if he wants enough people to be working to pay
for his pension.

I pay for a private pension, I don't require the next generation to do it
for me thanks. Also that whole paying pensions argument falls apart since
it appears to require a constantly increasing working age population which
is completely unsustainable, so better to bite the bullet now and halt
population growth rather than wreck the country then STILL have to deal
with the problem of pensions at a later date anyway.

You've spotted a weakness which applies a lot more widely than to pensions
but it's still the only way your state pension will be paid.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

s***@potato.field

2017-01-10 11:51:35 UTC

On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 05:44:44 -0600

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 13:45:07 -0600

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I assume the discussion is about the Greater London population. Hopefully
Spud won't get his wish if he wants enough people to be working to pay
for his pension.

I pay for a private pension, I don't require the next generation to do it
for me thanks. Also that whole paying pensions argument falls apart since
it appears to require a constantly increasing working age population which
is completely unsustainable, so better to bite the bullet now and halt
population growth rather than wreck the country then STILL have to deal
with the problem of pensions at a later date anyway.

You've spotted a weakness which applies a lot more widely than to pensions
but it's still the only way your state pension will be paid.

The age of retirement is slowly being raised so that should solve the problem
at least partially. More workers in the job market without requiring immigrants
and less demand for pensions. Win win.

--
Spud

Roland Perry

2017-01-10 13:12:46 UTC

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I assume the discussion is about the Greater London population. Hopefully
Spud won't get his wish if he wants enough people to be working to pay
for his pension.

I pay for a private pension, I don't require the next generation to do it
for me thanks. Also that whole paying pensions argument falls apart since
it appears to require a constantly increasing working age population which
is completely unsustainable, so better to bite the bullet now and halt
population growth rather than wreck the country then STILL have to deal
with the problem of pensions at a later date anyway.

You've spotted a weakness which applies a lot more widely than to pensions
but it's still the only way your state pension will be paid.

The age of retirement is slowly being raised so that should solve the problem
at least partially. More workers in the job market without requiring immigrants

How many redundant Southern Guards, aged 70+ want to work in all
weathers picking crops in the Fens?

Post by s***@potato.field
and less demand for pensions. Win win.

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2017-01-10 13:51:43 UTC

On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 13:12:46 +0000

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I assume the discussion is about the Greater London population. Hopefully
Spud won't get his wish if he wants enough people to be working to pay
for his pension.

I pay for a private pension, I don't require the next generation to do it
for me thanks. Also that whole paying pensions argument falls apart since
it appears to require a constantly increasing working age population which
is completely unsustainable, so better to bite the bullet now and halt
population growth rather than wreck the country then STILL have to deal
with the problem of pensions at a later date anyway.

You've spotted a weakness which applies a lot more widely than to pensions
but it's still the only way your state pension will be paid.

The age of retirement is slowly being raised so that should solve the problem
at least partially. More workers in the job market without requiring

immigrants
How many redundant Southern Guards, aged 70+ want to work in all
weathers picking crops in the Fens?

If that was the only place immigrants were taking jobs then that would be a
valid question, but as you know - it isn't. I'm currently sitting in an office

Post by s***@potato.field
60% immigrants, none of them doing a job that couldn't have been done by

a native. And in fact 1 position was illegally filled since it wasn't
advertised in the UK before a foreign director found someone in his own country
to fill it for a pittance salary.

--
Spud

Roland Perry

2017-01-10 14:15:40 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
The age of retirement is slowly being raised so that should solve the problem
at least partially. More workers in the job market without requiring

immigrants
How many redundant Southern Guards, aged 70+ want to work in all
weathers picking crops in the Fens?

If that was the only place immigrants were taking jobs then that would be a
valid question, but as you know - it isn't.

It's the jobs which tipped the Brexit balance among voters.

Post by s***@potato.field
I'm currently sitting in an office 60% immigrants, none of them doing
a job that couldn't have been done by a native. And in fact 1 position
was illegally filled since it wasn't advertised in the UK before a
foreign director found someone in his own country to fill it for a
pittance salary.

That's extraordinary. Either a very small office and that's six out of
ten by some fluke, or as you hint a foreign-owned firm preferring its
nationals. And that could of course bring with them skills that a native
*didn't* have.

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2017-01-10 14:31:45 UTC

On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 14:15:40 +0000

Post by s***@potato.field
If that was the only place immigrants were taking jobs then that would be a
valid question, but as you know - it isn't.

It's the jobs which tipped the Brexit balance among voters.

Yes, but I doubt it was particularly vegetable picking jobs.

That's extraordinary. Either a very small office and that's six out of

Not in London it isn't. Most IT depts I've worked in in the last 10 years
have been 30-60% foreign nationals and the proportion has slowly been rising
over the years.

Post by Roland Perry
ten by some fluke, or as you hint a foreign-owned firm preferring its
nationals. And that could of course bring with them skills that a native
*didn't* have.

The majority of the directors are foreign and seem to prefer to hire
immigrants. I'm guessing because they're cheaper.

The last place I worked was a french company and a lot of jobs didn't get
created in the UK, they got "transfered" from france and so did the incumbent
who had been doing it for a couple of days after being hired in france. But
it still looks like a new UK job. Win!

Naturally politicians and Guardian readers are either too pig ignorant or out
of touch to realise this sort of thing is going on all over the place.

--
Spud

Roland Perry

2017-01-10 15:08:03 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
If that was the only place immigrants were taking jobs then that would be a
valid question, but as you know - it isn't.

It's the jobs which tipped the Brexit balance among voters.

Yes, but I doubt it was particularly vegetable picking jobs.

That's extraordinary. Either a very small office and that's six out of

Not in London it isn't. Most IT depts I've worked in in the last 10 years
have been 30-60% foreign nationals and the proportion has slowly been rising
over the years.

Post by Roland Perry
ten by some fluke, or as you hint a foreign-owned firm preferring its
nationals. And that could of course bring with them skills that a native
*didn't* have.

The majority of the directors are foreign and seem to prefer to hire
immigrants. I'm guessing because they're cheaper.
The last place I worked was a french company and a lot of jobs didn't get
created in the UK, they got "transfered" from france and so did the incumbent
who had been doing it for a couple of days after being hired in france. But
it still looks like a new UK job. Win!
Naturally politicians and Guardian readers are either too pig ignorant or out
of touch to realise this sort of thing is going on all over the place.

Of course it happens a bit, but with only 12% of employees foreign
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.

Source: Labour Force Survey 2015, Q1-Q4.

Of course, our labour pool will be flooded by British expats sent
packing after freedom of movement in Europe ends.

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2017-01-10 16:14:15 UTC

On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 15:08:03 +0000

Post by s***@potato.field
The last place I worked was a french company and a lot of jobs didn't get
created in the UK, they got "transfered" from france and so did the incumbent
who had been doing it for a couple of days after being hired in france. But
it still looks like a new UK job. Win!
Naturally politicians and Guardian readers are either too pig ignorant or out
of touch to realise this sort of thing is going on all over the place.

Of course it happens a bit, but with only 12% of employees foreign

More than a bit and I wouldn't use the word "only" when saying 12% of the
labour force is foreign.

Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.

I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.

Post by Roland Perry
Of course, our labour pool will be flooded by British expats sent
packing after freedom of movement in Europe ends.

They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the UK
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to be
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.

--
Spud

Recliner

2017-01-10 16:46:37 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 15:08:03 +0000

Of course it happens a bit, but with only 12% of employees foreign

More than a bit and I wouldn't use the word "only" when saying 12% of the
labour force is foreign.

Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.

I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.

Post by Roland Perry
Of course, our labour pool will be flooded by British expats sent
packing after freedom of movement in Europe ends.

Why would they fly back to the UK for NHS treatment? They're entitled to
use the local health services, which are often better than the NHS, on the
same terms as the locals.

Many of the expats work for the EU in Brussels, and although some might
want to stay on after the UK leaves, it sems that working for the EU in
Brussels doesn't qualify them for Belgian citizenship on the basis of
residence. They need to have been paying Belgian tax for that.

s***@potato.field

2017-01-10 16:53:40 UTC

On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 16:46:37 -0000 (UTC)

Post by s***@potato.field
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the

Post by s***@potato.field
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to be
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.

Why would they fly back to the UK for NHS treatment? They're entitled to
use the local health services, which are often better than the NHS, on the
same terms as the locals.

Maybe, but I can't think of many other reasons not to get a local passport.

Post by Recliner
Many of the expats work for the EU in Brussels, and although some might
want to stay on after the UK leaves, it sems that working for the EU in
Brussels doesn't qualify them for Belgian citizenship on the basis of
residence. They need to have been paying Belgian tax for that.

Quite why anyone would want to live in Belgium beats me anyway. France or
spain I can understand, but Belgium? Ugh.

--
Spud

Recliner

2017-01-10 17:02:16 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 16:46:37 -0000 (UTC)

Post by s***@potato.field
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the

Post by s***@potato.field
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to be
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.

Why would they fly back to the UK for NHS treatment? They're entitled to
use the local health services, which are often better than the NHS, on the
same terms as the locals.

Maybe, but I can't think of many other reasons not to get a local passport.

Perhaps they intend to return one day?

Quite why anyone would want to live in Belgium beats me anyway. France or
spain I can understand, but Belgium? Ugh.

Once they get a Belgian passport, they could live and work in any EU
country.

Roland Perry

2017-01-10 20:38:36 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the

Post by s***@potato.field
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to be
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.

Why would they fly back to the UK for NHS treatment? They're entitled to
use the local health services, which are often better than the NHS, on the
same terms as the locals.

Maybe, but I can't think of many other reasons not to get a local passport.

Because currently *any* EU passport is equally as good.

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2017-01-11 09:27:32 UTC

On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:38:36 +0000

Post by s***@potato.field
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the

Post by s***@potato.field
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to

Post by s***@potato.field
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.

Why would they fly back to the UK for NHS treatment? They're entitled to
use the local health services, which are often better than the NHS, on the
same terms as the locals.

Maybe, but I can't think of many other reasons not to get a local passport.

Because currently *any* EU passport is equally as good.

Not if you want to vote. And if you live in a country I'd assume you'd want
to take part in the political process. Or maybe thats just me. There's probably
state pension issues too.

--
Spud

tim...

2017-01-11 11:55:46 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:38:36 +0000

Post by s***@potato.field
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the

Post by s***@potato.field
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to

Post by s***@potato.field
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.

Why would they fly back to the UK for NHS treatment? They're entitled to
use the local health services, which are often better than the NHS, on the
same terms as the locals.

Maybe, but I can't think of many other reasons not to get a local passport.

Because currently *any* EU passport is equally as good.

Not if you want to vote. And if you live in a country I'd assume you'd want
to take part in the political process. Or maybe thats just me.

I got to vote in local elections

Germany is (I think) quite unique here in that, for sizable towns, they will
have a constituency of "foreign" residents who get to vote for their own
special choice of councilor who targets their manifesto at that minority
interest.

I also got a vote in EU elections. But I decided that it was pointless
using it.

I had so little knowledge of the leanings of German political parties that I
didn't have a clue which one comes closest to representing my specific
Political ideal - and I didn't believe that they would be prepared to spend
the effort to give me the information if I asked them (I actually had this
conversation with one of the canvassers in the town centre, and he agreed
with me - that they wouldn't find it worth their while to translate all
their literate into English for the small number of voters in the
constituency)

I suspect voting for a party at national elections has the same problem

Post by s***@potato.field
There's probably
state pension issues too.

No, that's purely qualified for by years of contribution

tim

s***@potato.field

2017-01-11 12:04:14 UTC

On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:55:46 -0000

Post by tim...
Political ideal - and I didn't believe that they would be prepared to spend
the effort to give me the information if I asked them (I actually had this
conversation with one of the canvassers in the town centre, and he agreed
with me - that they wouldn't find it worth their while to translate all
their literate into English for the small number of voters in the
constituency)

If you're living in a foreign country you should learn the language and not
expect the locals to translate their literature into your language because
you're too lazy to learn theirs. Something councils in this country should
consider instead of wasting council tax translating documents into whatever
3rd world languages the local immigrants speak.

--
Spud

tim...

2017-01-11 13:34:25 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:55:46 -0000

If you're living in a foreign country you should learn the language and not
expect the locals to translate their literature into your language because
you're too lazy to learn theirs.

Some people are just no good at learning foreign languages

after 200 hours (and that is a lot) of lessons I was still finding spoken
German incomprehensible

tim

Basil Jet

2017-01-11 15:06:07 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:55:46 -0000

If you're living in a foreign country you should learn the language and not
expect the locals to translate their literature into your language because
you're too lazy to learn theirs.

Some people are just no good at learning foreign languages
after 200 hours (and that is a lot) of lessons I was still finding
spoken German incomprehensible

Zay heff vays off mecking you tock,
but zay heff no vay off mecking you understand.

s***@potato.field

2017-01-11 15:24:11 UTC

On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 13:34:25 -0000

Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:55:46 -0000

If you're living in a foreign country you should learn the language and not
expect the locals to translate their literature into your language because
you're too lazy to learn theirs.

Some people are just no good at learning foreign languages
after 200 hours (and that is a lot) of lessons I was still finding spoken
German incomprehensible

To be fair I found german hard too. French was a lot easier and I managed to
get myself up to a basic conversational level just by teaching myself on the
tube ride in the mornings. Perhaps you should have picked a different country
to live in?

--
Spud

Basil Jet

2017-01-11 15:29:15 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 13:34:25 -0000

Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:55:46 -0000

If you're living in a foreign country you should learn the language and not
expect the locals to translate their literature into your language because
you're too lazy to learn theirs.

Some people are just no good at learning foreign languages
after 200 hours (and that is a lot) of lessons I was still finding spoken
German incomprehensible

Amazing. I loved German but hated French. French isn't even a language,
its just a load of nasal sounds blurred into each other. French
keyboards have a big apostrophe bar where the space bar should be.

Roland Perry

2017-01-11 15:50:46 UTC

Post by tim...
Some people are just no good at learning foreign languages
after 200 hours (and that is a lot) of lessons I was still finding spoken
German incomprehensible

Difficulty in picking up foreign languages (or even English when an
infant) is one of the classic symptoms of even high-functioning autism
sufferers.

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2017-01-11 16:11:57 UTC

On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 15:50:46 +0000

Post by tim...
Some people are just no good at learning foreign languages
after 200 hours (and that is a lot) of lessons I was still finding spoken
German incomprehensible

Difficulty in picking up foreign languages (or even English when an
infant) is one of the classic symptoms of even high-functioning autism
sufferers.

I think thats a bit unfair. Some people are just bad at languages in the way
that others just don't get maths no matter how much effort they put in.

--
Spud

Roland Perry

2017-01-11 16:27:40 UTC

Post by tim...
Some people are just no good at learning foreign languages
after 200 hours (and that is a lot) of lessons I was still finding spoken
German incomprehensible

Difficulty in picking up foreign languages (or even English when an
infant) is one of the classic symptoms of even high-functioning autism
sufferers.

I think thats a bit unfair. Some people are just bad at languages in the way
that others just don't get maths no matter how much effort they put in.

It' not "unfair", it's a condition with symptoms, just like colour
blindness, dyslexia or dyspraxia. Not everyone can be good at
everything, nor should we blame them, it's just the way they are.

Understanding disability[1] is a fundamental part of a caring society.

The other side of the coin is that like blind piano tuners having
enhanced audio skills, high-functioning autism sufferers can be amazing
talented at certain tasks.

[1] Again, that's a word with unnecessary baggage.

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2017-01-11 08:51:55 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 16:46:37 -0000 (UTC)

Post by s***@potato.field
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the

Post by s***@potato.field
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to be
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.

Why would they fly back to the UK for NHS treatment? They're entitled to
use the local health services, which are often better than the NHS, on the
same terms as the locals.

Maybe, but I can't think of many other reasons not to get a local passport.

Quite why anyone would want to live in Belgium beats me anyway. France or
spain I can understand, but Belgium? Ugh.

Brussels is a great place to live and work

rural Belgium, not quite so

tim

Post by s***@potato.field
--
Spud

Roland Perry

2017-01-10 20:37:44 UTC

Of course it happens a bit, but with only 12% of employees foreign

More than a bit and I wouldn't use the word "only" when saying 12% of the
labour force is foreign.

Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.

I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.

As most of the rest are patently minimum wage cleaning (etc) jobs, your
interest is misplaced.

Post by Roland Perry
Of course, our labour pool will be flooded by British expats sent
packing after freedom of movement in Europe ends.

What amounts to freelancers will work wherever the cost-benefit is in
their favour. Brexit removes most of the benefits.

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2017-01-11 08:59:54 UTC

Of course it happens a bit, but with only 12% of employees foreign

More than a bit and I wouldn't use the word "only" when saying 12% of the
labour force is foreign.

Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.

I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.

As most of the rest are patently minimum wage cleaning (etc) jobs, your
interest is misplaced.

Post by Roland Perry
Of course, our labour pool will be flooded by British expats sent
packing after freedom of movement in Europe ends.

What amounts to freelancers will work wherever the cost-benefit is in
their favour. Brexit removes most of the benefits.

I don't know what it's like in finance, but the inclusion of the Eastern
workers to the pool has changed the scene in engineering for the worst
already.

When I started doing European Gigs you would find 80-90% of freelancers were
Brits (the locals usually being reluctant to live the freelance "life").

On my last one that was down to about 20% and whilst some of the difference
was made up by an increase in (still reluctant) locals, about 50% were from
East Europe.

I have no idea whether this is because they would work for less or not.

tim

s***@potato.field

2017-01-11 09:36:14 UTC

On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 08:59:54 -0000

Post by tim...
On my last one that was down to about 20% and whilst some of the difference
was made up by an increase in (still reluctant) locals, about 50% were from
East Europe.
I have no idea whether this is because they would work for less or not.

Its almost certainly that as it is in other fields. The brits who used to
do the jobs haven't suddenly vanished off the face of the earth.

A good example Guardianistas and similar morons love to cite is coffee shop
workers. "Look how the lazy brits won't do the job" they cry, having rarely
been outside the M25 except in an aircraft. If they visited most county towns
they'd find plenty of brits working in coffee chains and doing a fine job.

--
Spud

Roland Perry

2017-01-11 10:11:51 UTC

Its almost certainly that as it is in other fields. The brits who used to
do the jobs haven't suddenly vanished off the face of the earth.

There's an IT skills shortage, which explains the various forms of
'foreigner' mentioned in this thread. The British IT workers don't have
to suddenly vanish, there's more work to do, and many of them have
joined the brain drain (so have vanished from the UK you could argue).

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2017-01-11 11:19:54 UTC

Its almost certainly that as it is in other fields. The brits who used to
do the jobs haven't suddenly vanished off the face of the earth.

There's an IT skills shortage,

not in engineering there isn't

tim

Roland Perry

2017-01-11 13:21:20 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
There's an IT skills shortage,

not in engineering there isn't

Yes there is. Maybe not in your specific field, if your view is coloured
by applying for jobs you don't get.

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2017-01-11 13:31:59 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
There's an IT skills shortage,

not in engineering there isn't

Yes there is. Maybe not in your specific field, if your view is coloured
by applying for jobs you don't get.

No, it's based upon what my peers tell me happens to them as well

And what happens is that once you get to 40+ few want to employ you in
non-management positions however good a match you are for the role.

An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than 50%
through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.

tim

Roland Perry

2017-01-11 14:31:59 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
There's an IT skills shortage,

not in engineering there isn't

Yes there is. Maybe not in your specific field, if your view is
coloured by applying for jobs you don't get.

No, it's based upon what my peers tell me happens to them as well
And what happens is that once you get to 40+ few want to employ you in
non-management positions however good a match you are for the role.
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.

I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2017-01-11 15:20:35 UTC

On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 14:31:59 +0000

Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.

I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.

That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.

--
Spud

tim...

2017-01-11 15:39:38 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 14:31:59 +0000

Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.

I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.

That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.

and either way, you don't need a whole team of 20 to be under 25.

(unless you are a 30 year old manager who scared he might have his technical
capabilities "shown up" - heard stories of that, never personally
experienced it)

tim

Roland Perry

2017-01-11 15:51:51 UTC

Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.

I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.

That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.

I'm not sure how that would apply to something like Blockchain. No wheel
to re-invent, there.

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2017-01-11 16:12:45 UTC

Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.

I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.

That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.

I'm not sure how that would apply to something like Blockchain. No wheel
to re-invent, there.

and how many "engineering" IT project use that

I have never even heard of it (and having Googled it, I can see why)

tim

Post by Roland Perry
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2017-01-11 16:29:19 UTC

Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.

I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.

That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.

I'm not sure how that would apply to something like Blockchain. No
wheel to re-invent, there.

and how many "engineering" IT project use that

You don't think building an e-commerce platform is IT? Uber would be
disappointed (they call themselves a tech firm).

Post by tim...
I have never even heard of it

I bet myself you'd say that.

Post by tim...
(and having Googled it, I can see why)

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2017-01-11 16:15:41 UTC

On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 15:51:51 +0000

Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.

I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.

That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.

I'm not sure how that would apply to something like Blockchain. No wheel
to re-invent, there.

Since no one has any idea who invented blockchain and bitcoin there's no way
of knowing if they're a young genius or an ageing professor. Or a government
agency. My money is on one of the latter since no one young who invents
something like that off their own bat is going to remain anonymous when they
could shout it to the world and make a fortune on the back of it.

--
Spud

Roland Perry

2017-01-11 16:30:07 UTC

Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.

I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.

That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.

I'm not sure how that would apply to something like Blockchain. No wheel
to re-invent, there.

Since no one has any idea who invented blockchain and bitcoin there's no way
of knowing if they're a young genius or an ageing professor.

Er, it's people deploying solutions based on blockchain I was referring
to.

--
Roland Perry

Eric

2017-01-11 18:06:41 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 14:31:59 +0000

Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.

I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.

That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.

Aaaaaargh! That's the second time today I've agreed with you!

And, to pick on something actually lower down in the thread, just
because it's a new platform or new tools doesn't mean that they don't
make the same category of mistakes, and re-invent wheels at the logical
level before they try to code them.

Eric

--
ms fnd in a lbry

tim...

2017-01-11 11:19:13 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 08:59:54 -0000

Its almost certainly that as it is in other fields.

but in this case it won't be the end employer paying less

it will be the agency in the middle creaming off a bigger margin

Post by s***@potato.field
The brits who used to
do the jobs haven't suddenly vanished off the face of the earth.

They haven't vanished but IME (and that of my colleagues that I am in touch
with) opportunities for foreign freelancers are becoming scarcer

tim

s***@potato.field

2017-01-11 09:29:04 UTC

On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:37:44 +0000

Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.

I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.

As most of the rest are patently minimum wage cleaning (etc) jobs, your
interest is misplaced.

The statement that only 3.2% of workers in IT are foreign nationals is
farcical.

Post by s***@potato.field
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the UK
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to be
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.

What amounts to freelancers will work wherever the cost-benefit is in
their favour. Brexit removes most of the benefits.

Tough. The future of this country is more important than some itinerants making
a killing abroad.

--
Spud

Roland Perry

2017-01-11 10:14:30 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.

I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.

As most of the rest are patently minimum wage cleaning (etc) jobs, your
interest is misplaced.

The statement that only 3.2% of workers in IT are foreign nationals is
farcical.

You may of course be confused by the number of second generation
immigrants working in IT - Brits of course. And like I said, the
proportion in London is higher than the rest of the country, so you
can't extrapolate from the place(s) where you happen to work.

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2017-01-11 10:34:43 UTC

On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 10:14:30 +0000

Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.

I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.

As most of the rest are patently minimum wage cleaning (etc) jobs, your
interest is misplaced.

The statement that only 3.2% of workers in IT are foreign nationals is
farcical.

You may of course be confused by the number of second generation
immigrants working in IT - Brits of course. And like I said, the

Don't patronise me. I'm perfectly capable of hearing a british accent on an
asian or black person. I'm talking about foreign nationals.

Post by Roland Perry
proportion in London is higher than the rest of the country, so you
can't extrapolate from the place(s) where you happen to work.

Well I guess it depends what IT. If it includes every part time sys admin
who pops up in local firms around the country to fix a borked Windows machine
then probably not, but serious computing infrastructure, activity and workers
are generally confined to large firms who in turn are confined to only a few
areas in the country with London being the main one (followed by the M3/M4
corridors, manchester and glasgow).

--
Spud

Roland Perry

2017-01-11 11:03:15 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.

I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.

As most of the rest are patently minimum wage cleaning (etc) jobs, your
interest is misplaced.

The statement that only 3.2% of workers in IT are foreign nationals is
farcical.

You may of course be confused by the number of second generation
immigrants working in IT - Brits of course. And like I said, the

Don't patronise me. I'm perfectly capable of hearing a british accent on an
asian or black person. I'm talking about foreign nationals.

Can you tell from their accent whether they've naturalised British?

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2017-01-11 11:36:58 UTC

On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:03:15 +0000