The elites are going crazy over Brexit.

Post by pullgees
'We are living through a revolt of the elites. A revolt of the elites
against the public. Whether they’re using their business clout to
stymie Brexit in court, or their Commons clout to insist on a second
referendum, or the clout of the Irish to put off enacting Brexit,
sections of the British and European political elites are working
tirelessly to silence Britons' democratic voice.
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-elites-are-in-revolt-ag
ainst-the-people/20575

'We are living through a revolt of the elites. A revolt of the elites
against the public.'

I thought that the Brexit vote was a 'revolt of the public against the
elites'!

--
Ian

pullgees

2017-11-27 14:23:34 UTC

'We are living through a revolt of the elites. A revolt of the elites
against the public.'
I thought that the Brexit vote was a 'revolt of the public against the
elites'!
--
Ian

No the elites are revolting.

pamela

2017-11-27 10:58:13 UTC

Post by pullgees
Brendan O'Neill on the cynical use of the Irish border issue to
thwart Brexit: 'We are living through a revolt of the elites. A
revolt of the elites against the public. Whether they're using
their business clout to stymie Brexit in court, or their Commons
clout to insist on a second referendum, or the clout of the
Irish to put off enacting Brexit, sections of the British and
European political elites are working tirelessly to silence
Britons' democratic voice.
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-elites-are-in-re
volt-against-the-people/20575

What addled nonsense. It's messianic-sounding garbage.

False outrage like that is a common feature of fake news
commentaries.

Altroy1

2017-11-27 17:04:47 UTC

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-elites-are-in-revolt-against-the-people/20575
Who would this Brendan O'Neill be, I wonder?

Wikipedia gives a clue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_O'Neill_(journalist)

O'Neill has described himself as "an atheistic libertarian". He is
opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage in Australia,
arguing that it has been "attended by authoritarianism wherever
it's been introduced"[6] and criticised opposition to Pope
Benedict XVI's visit to the United Kingdom as intolerant and
fearmongering.[7]

O'Neill and others associated with the Revolutionary Communist
Party, Living Marxism and Spiked-including Frank Furedi, Mick Hume
and Claire Fox are often seen by commenters such as Nick Cohen[8]
as having shifted from a far left position to an extreme stance on
the libertarian right. Although O'Neill still insists that he is
part of the left,[9] critics such as George Monbiot have suggested
that this is typical as a ploy adopted by those associated with
the RCP to split and discredit consensus upon the left[10] and to
cause impediments for such movements as environmentalism and the
reduction of carbon emissions.

And which elites is Brendan "People's Brexit" O'Neill referring to?

Tate and Lyle (or to use its proper name American Sugar Refining)?
Answer: Probably not.

Venture capitalists and hedge fund managers the like of Liam Fox,
Jacob Rees-Mogg?

Answer: Probably not.

pullgees

2017-11-27 23:08:23 UTC

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-elites-are-in-revolt-against-the-people/20575
Who would this Brendan O'Neill be, I wonder?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_O'Neill_(journalist)
O'Neill has described himself as "an atheistic libertarian". He is
opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage in Australia,
arguing that it has been "attended by authoritarianism wherever
it's been introduced"[6] and criticised opposition to Pope
Benedict XVI's visit to the United Kingdom as intolerant and
fearmongering.[7]
O'Neill and others associated with the Revolutionary Communist
Party, Living Marxism and Spiked-including Frank Furedi, Mick Hume
and Claire Fox are often seen by commenters such as Nick Cohen[8]
as having shifted from a far left position to an extreme stance on
the libertarian right. Although O'Neill still insists that he is
part of the left,[9] critics such as George Monbiot have suggested
that this is typical as a ploy adopted by those associated with
the RCP to split and discredit consensus upon the left[10] and to
cause impediments for such movements as environmentalism and the
reduction of carbon emissions.
And which elites is Brendan "People's Brexit" O'Neill referring to?
Tate and Lyle (or to use its proper name American Sugar Refining)?
Answer: Probably not.
Venture capitalists and hedge fund managers the like of Liam Fox,
Jacob Rees-Mogg?
Answer: Probably not.

In short, you don't agree with the article. Regardless of who he was, is, or might be, and regardless of Guardina George Monbiot, heaven forbid, I do agree. What was the point of your post again?

Altroy1

2017-11-28 22:28:32 UTC

[....]

Post by Altroy1
O'Neill and others associated with the Revolutionary Communist
Party, Living Marxism and Spiked-including Frank Furedi, Mick Hume
and Claire Fox are often seen by commenters such as Nick Cohen[8]
as having shifted from a far left position to an extreme stance on
the libertarian right. Although O'Neill still insists that he is
part of the left,[9] critics such as George Monbiot have suggested
that this is typical as a ploy adopted by those associated with
the RCP to split and discredit consensus upon the left[10] and to
cause impediments for such movements as environmentalism and the
reduction of carbon emissions.
And which elites is Brendan "People's Brexit" O'Neill referring to?
Tate and Lyle (or to use its proper name American Sugar Refining)?
Answer: Probably not.
Venture capitalists and hedge fund managers the like of Liam Fox,
Jacob Rees-Mogg?
Answer: Probably not.

In short, you don't agree with the article. Regardless of who he was
, is, or might be, and regardless of Guardina George Monbiot, heaven
forbid, I do agree. What was the point of your post again?

The point of my post was to reply to the idea that Brexiters are always some
kind of proletarian blue-collar free thinkers promoting a people's Brexit versus
the evil Remoaners -- all of them wealthy elites. In fact Brexit is being funded
by very, very wealthy people - Aaron Banks, Rupert Murdoch, Dacre,the Legatum
Institute etc come to mind.

Of course there is establishment support for remain. That's obvious. Brendan
O'Neill knows rightly the establishment is divided on this issue. Monbiot is
right not to trust O'Neill's utterances. O'Neill is not quite the people's
champion that he would have us believe.

pullgees

2017-11-29 07:44:27 UTC

Post by Altroy1
[....]

In short, you don't agree with the article. Regardless of who he was
, is, or might be, and regardless of Guardina George Monbiot, heaven
forbid, I do agree. What was the point of your post again?

Because some one is rich does not make them an elite. Elite def:A select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.
If Leave had no people of influence and often by default are rich it would not stand a chance.

Post by Altroy1
Of course there is establishment support for remain. > That's obvious.

Really? Most of the establishment is for remaining which includes the majority of the political class.

Post by Altroy1
Brendan O'Neill knows rightly the establishment is divided on this issue. Monbiot is
right not to trust O'Neill's utterances. O'Neill is not quite the people's
champion that he would have us believe.

Well just look no further than the EU, run by an unelected elite. But anyway shoot the messenger, it's much easier.

Altroy1

2017-11-29 14:11:04 UTC

[....]

Post by pullgees
forbid, I do agree. What was the point of your post again?

Because some one is rich does not make them an elite. Elite def:A
select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to
the rest of a group or society. If Leave had no people of influence
and often by default are rich it would not stand a chance.

If you are honest and follow your own logic then you will recognise that
there are elites on both leave/remain side.

Post by Altroy1
Of course there is establishment support for remain. That's obvious.

Really? Most of the establishment is for remaining which includes the majority
of the political class.

The tabloid media, run by the like of Rupert Murdoch. Remember Murdoch? - a
cheerleader for every neocon regime change war proposed: Iraq, Libya, Syria. A
wealthy US citizen billionaire that backed Brexit along with most of the other
print media. Doesn't mind the UK or anyone else sending taxpayer £350 million
per week to pay for some kind of regime change war or other.

You also fail to mention the very powerful elite that turned around opinion
polls from 2/3rds in favour of the alternative vote to 1/3. The alternative
vote was portrayed in poster by two boxers, the knocked down loser had his hand
raised and underneath was the caption Under AV the loser can win.

Of course there is NO DIFFERENCE between FPTP and AV in a two horse race. And
those liars knew it.

Fast forward and the same lot came up with a lying battlebus where there
was supposedly £350 million being robbed from the NHS and being sent to the EU
each week.

Now to be fair the remain side does have elites too. The remain side includes
the like of regime change lovers Tony Blair and Alasdair Campbell who seem to
help the leave case with every utterance. That's my point - the elites are
divided. There is no simple reductio ad absurdum proletariat (leave) vs
elite(remain).

To be fair, some on the leave side (for example Farage) campaigned for AV.

Life's sometimes not a simple as the platitudes and quick pill for every ill
spouted by O'Neill and similar ilk.

Well just look no further than the EU, run by an unelected elite.
But anyway shoot the messenger, it's much easier.

Last time I checked, the EU did not run the world's second largest unelected
parliamentary chamber. A chamber that gives a comfy home to the likes of Neil
Ninnock and party political donors. Who scuppered the Lib Dems proposal for HoL
reform? The same elites that opposed AV.

Brendan O'Neill is in my eyes a paid shill employed to write gibberish about the
people's brexit versus the big bad elites. He's no real defender of the working
class no matter how hard he tries to give that impression. Monbiot is right.

pullgees

2017-11-29 15:48:31 UTC

Post by Altroy1
[....]

Post by pullgees
forbid, I do agree. What was the point of your post again?

Because some one is rich does not make them an elite. Elite def:A
select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to
the rest of a group or society. If Leave had no people of influence
and often by default are rich it would not stand a chance.

If you are honest and follow your own logic then you will recognise that
there are elites on both leave/remain side.

If you were honest you would grasp the true meaning of elite the ones who are not representative of the majority will of the people, but seek to undermine them. This time the majority of the elite are blocking Brexit

Post by Altroy1
Of course there is establishment support for remain. That's obvious.

Really? Most of the establishment is for remaining which includes the majority
of the political class.

The tabloid media, run by the like of Rupert Murdoch. Remember Murdoch?

For a start News Corp is not all tabloid

Post by Altroy1
a cheerleader for every neocon regime change war proposed: Iraq, Libya, Syria. A
wealthy US citizen billionaire that backed Brexit along with most of the other
print media. Doesn't mind the UK or anyone else sending taxpayer £350 million
per week to pay for some kind of regime change war or other.

As I said before, we need some big guns and as he is supporting the majority and not seeking to wreck the decision he is not one of the elite in this case. The article is talking about the obstructionists now on the current topic of Brexit.

Post by Altroy1
You also fail to mention the very powerful elite that turned around opinion
polls from 2/3rds in favour of the alternative vote to 1/3. The alternative
vote was portrayed in poster by two boxers, the knocked down loser had his hand
raised and underneath was the caption Under AV the > > loser can win
Of course there is NO DIFFERENCE between FPTP and AV in a two horse race. And
those liars knew it.

Again the vast majority of those with power are doing everything they can to Stop Brexit. Any rich and powerful person supporting Brexit is not acting as an elite individual. Check the def again, which you avoided.

Post by Altroy1
Fast forward and the same lot came up with a lying battlebus where there
was supposedly £350 million being robbed from the NHS and being sent to the EU
each week.

"the same lot"? Was that Murdoch's idea then?

Post by Altroy1
Now to be fair the remain side does have elites too. The remain side includes
the like of regime change lovers Tony Blair and Alasdair Campbell who seem to
help the leave case with every utterance. That's my point - the elites are
divided. There is no simple reductio ad absurdum proletariat (leave) vs
elite(remain).
To be fair, some on the leave side (for example Farage) campaigned for AV.
Life's sometimes not a simple as the platitudes and quick pill for every ill
spouted by O'Neill and similar ilk.

Post by Altroy1
Brendan O'Neill knows rightly the establishment is divided on this issue.
Monbiot is
right not to trust O'Neill's utterances. O'Neill is not quite the people's
champion that he would have us believe.

Well just look no further than the EU, run by an unelected elite.
But anyway shoot the messenger, it's much easier.

Last time I checked, the EU did not run the world's second largest unelected
parliamentary chamber. A chamber that gives a comfy home to the likes of Neil
Ninnock and party political donors. Who scuppered the Lib Dems proposal for HoL
reform? The same elites that opposed AV.
Brendan O'Neill is in my eyes a paid shill employed to write gibberish about the
people's brexit versus the big bad elites. He's no real defender of the working
class no matter how hard he tries to give that impression. Monbiot is right.

You keep smearing him, but I note, you haven't said one argument against what he actually wrote. All you can say and very overly long about it, is that there are elites on both sides. The actual elites are the ones opposing the will of the people and he is right we are being opposed every step of the way by them to a clean Brexit.

Altroy1

2017-11-29 17:09:53 UTC

[....]

Post by Altroy1
The tabloid media, run by the like of Rupert Murdoch. Remember Murdoch?

For a start News Corp is not all tabloid

Post by Altroy1
a cheerleader for every neocon regime change war proposed: Iraq, Libya, Syria. A
wealthy US citizen billionaire that backed Brexit along with most of the other
print media. Doesn't mind the UK or anyone else sending taxpayer Â£350 million
per week to pay for some kind of regime change war or other.

As I said before, we need some big guns and as he is
supporting the majority and not seeking to wreck the decision
he is not one of the elite in this case. The article is
talking about the obstructionists now on the current topic of
Brexit.

Both sides have people who hold strong views.

So, then, had the Remain side won 52 - 48, then as Farage candidly admitted
the agitation against the EU would continue. The Bankers, hedge funds,
the Atlantic Bridge and Adam Smith types would not have accepted
a narrow remain win. Not ever.

Again the vast majority of those with power are doing

No. The Cabinet, main political parties and country are divided.

What's not divided is the tabloid press - the press that called one
of the judges that voted against the Royal Perogative a poofter (eww!)
others "enemies of the people". Strange enemies they were too,
supporting parliamentary scruitiny before invoking A50 versus
ministerial diktat via an unelected Monarch's ancient powers.

Post by pullgees
everything they can to Stop Brexit. Any rich and powerful
person supporting Brexit is not acting as an elite
individual. Check the def again, which you avoided.

Here is a fairly good def:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite

In political and sociological theory, the elite (French élite, from
Latin eligere) are a small group of powerful people that control a
disproportionate amount of wealth, privilege or political power in a
society.

London, Merseyside, Scotland, Northern Ireland voted remain.

That doesn't meet a definition of elite as far as I can see.

[...]

Post by Altroy1
Brendan O'Neill is in my eyes a paid shill employed to write gibberish about the
people's brexit versus the big bad elites. He's no real defender of the working
class no matter how hard he tries to give that impression. Monbiot is right.

You keep smearing him, but I note, you haven't said one
argument against what he actually wrote. All you can say and
very overly long about it, is that there are elites on both
sides. The actual elites are the ones opposing the will of
the people and he is right we are being opposed every step of
the way by them to a clean Brexit.

Monbiot is right. Also, a shill by any other name is still a shill.

The fact, which I accept, that the remain side has its share of charlatans
(Ninnock, Bliar, @cambellclaret etc) does not give Brendan O'Neill a get out of
gaol free card. O'Neill's own words define him writing in such radical worker
people's publications such as the, er, um Torygraph:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/ignore-the-killjoys-waging-war-on-sugar/

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/08/im-a-brexit-extremist-and-proud-of-it/

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100176602/posh-bashing-has-replaced-prole-bashing-as-the-nastiest-strain-in-british-politics/

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100151677/breivik-a-monster-made-by-multiculturalism/

pullgees

2017-11-29 18:19:53 UTC

Post by Altroy1
[....]

Post by Altroy1
The tabloid media, run by the like of Rupert Murdoch. Remember Murdoch?

For a start News Corp is not all tabloid

Post by Altroy1
a cheerleader for every neocon regime change war proposed: Iraq, Libya,

Syria. A

Post by Altroy1
wealthy US citizen billionaire that backed Brexit along with most of the other
print media. Doesn't mind the UK or anyone else sending taxpayer Â£350 million
per week to pay for some kind of regime change war or other.

As I said before, we need some big guns and as he is
supporting the majority and not seeking to wreck the decision
he is not one of the elite in this case. The article is
talking about the obstructionists now on the current topic of
Brexit.

Both sides have people who hold strong views.
So, then, had the Remain side won 52 - 48, then as Farage candidly admitted
the agitation against the EU would continue. The Bankers, hedge funds,
the Atlantic Bridge and Adam Smith types would not have accepted
a narrow remain win. Not ever.

You love to digress away from the article but refuse to face what is happening right now. We are faced with a situation where the whole might of the political class trying to stop Brexit.

Again the vast majority of those with power are doing

No. The Cabinet, main political parties and country are divided.
What's not divided is the tabloid press - the press that called one
of the judges that voted against the Royal Perogative a poofter (eww!)
others "enemies of the people". Strange enemies they were too,
supporting parliamentary scruitiny before invoking A50 versus
ministerial diktat via an unelected Monarch's ancient powers.

You cut my reply so that's cheating. Anyway there you go again charging off to another topic in full rant. Out flowing all your political problems on me. Get some counselling or something, you are badly hurt.

Post by pullgees
everything they can to Stop Brexit. Any rich and powerful
person supporting Brexit is not acting as an elite
individual. Check the def again, which you avoided.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite
In political and sociological theory, the elite (French élite, from
Latin eligere) are a small group of powerful people that control a
disproportionate amount of wealth, privilege or political power in a
society.

That's not correct, they are a large group. Use a proper dictionary not Wiki.

Post by Altroy1
London, Merseyside, Scotland, Northern Ireland voted remain.
That doesn't meet a definition of elite as far as I can see.

Oh dear! Where are we going now. Countries aren't elite people are,.

Post by Altroy1
Brendan O'Neill is in my eyes a paid shill employed to write gibberish about

the

Post by Altroy1
people's brexit versus the big bad elites. He's no real defender of the working
class no matter how hard he tries to give that impression. Monbiot is right.

You keep smearing him, but I note, you haven't said one
argument against what he actually wrote. All you can say and
very overly long about it, is that there are elites on both
sides. The actual elites are the ones opposing the will of
the people and he is right we are being opposed every step of
the way by them to a clean Brexit.

Monbiot is right. Also, a shill by any other name is still a shill.
The fact, which I accept, that the remain side has its share of charlatans
gaol free card. O'Neill's own words define him writing in such radical worker
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/ignore-the-killjoys-waging-war-on-sugar/
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/08/im-a-brexit-extremist-and-proud-of-it/
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100176602/posh-bashing-has-replaced-prole-bashing-as-the-nastiest-strain-in-british-politics/
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100151677/breivik-a-monster-made-by-multiculturalism/

Yes you've already said. Shooting the messenger is all you have. You must be a George Monbiot fanboy.Let me know what Polly Toynbee has to say on the matter as well.
Anyway if Brexit has any elite they are sure outnumbered by your's. At the moment it's non-stop negativity from the media the BBC, The Lords, Hestletine, Clark, Blair and most of the House. Of course that's what you want because the bottom line is you are a Remainer.

Ian Jackson

2017-11-29 20:04:52 UTC

Post by pullgees
You love to digress away from the article but refuse to face what is
happening right now. We are faced with a situation where the whole
might of the political class trying to stop Brexit.

Except for a hard core who are trying to push Brexit through at all
costs, and despite the ever-increasing evidence that the process of
leaving might not be quite as seamless as it was promised to be.

--
Ian

pullgees

2017-11-29 23:01:51 UTC

Post by Ian Jackson

Like 40 billion and rising. Unfortunately it doesn't look as if the "hard core" are having any influence, so don't worry about it.

pamela

2017-12-04 14:23:43 UTC

In message

Post by pullgees
You love to digress away from the article but refuse to face
what is happening right now. We are faced with a situation
where the whole might of the political class trying to stop
Brexit.

Except for a hard core who are trying to push Brexit through at
all costs, and despite the ever-increasing evidence that the
process of leaving might not be quite as seamless as it was
promised to be.

Like 40 billion and rising. Unfortunately it doesn't look as if
the "hard core" are having any influence, so don't worry about
it.

The 40 billion is now payable because of the hard core wanting to
leave not only the EU..... and also not wishing to observe the Four
Freedoms when outside the EU.

Gee, thanks. There wasn't really any problem at all when we were in
the EU.... except for some disgruntled extreme nationalist Tory
backbenchers.

Altroy1

2017-11-30 00:27:39 UTC

[....]

Post by Altroy1
Monbiot is right. Also, a shill by any other name is still a shill.
The fact, which I accept, that the remain side has its share of charlatans
gaol free card. O'Neill's own words define him writing in such radical worker
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/ignore-the-killjoys-waging-war-on-sugar/
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/08/im-a-brexit-extremist-and-proud-of-it/
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100176602/posh-bashing-has-replaced-prole-bashing-as-the-nastiest-strain-in-british-politics/
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100151677/breivik-a-monster-made-by-multiculturalism/

Post by Altroy1
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/08/im-a-brexit-extremist-and-proud-of-it/

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100176602/posh-bashing-has-replaced-prole-bashing-as-the-nastiest-strain-in-british-politics/
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100151677/breivik-a-monster-made-by-multiculturalism/

Post by pullgees
Yes you've already said. Shooting the messenger is all you have.
You must be a George Monbiot fanboy.Let me know what Polly Toynbee
has to say on the matter as well.

I don't have a lot of time for Polly's opinions.

Ad-hominems rightly are frequently seen as playing the man not the ball.

There are exceptions such when the man plays himself as that ball, posing as a
defender of the working class against the wicked elites. This is a man who
defends big sugar. Rots childrens teeth then we are told that fluoride is needed
in the water to deal with the consequences of that big sugar. True believer Tate
and Lyle (actually American Sugar Refining Inc) backs Brexit so that there can
be more cheap Carribbean and American sugar (rather than the wicked EU's sugar
beet) bundled into the cavities of UK children's teeth. Give me a break.

What was it Gove said? We've had enough of experts. Lets add the like of Brendan
O'Neill to that list.

Post by pullgees
Anyway if Brexit has any elite
they are sure outnumbered by your's. At the moment it's non-stop
negativity from the media the BBC, The Lords, Hestletine, Clark,
Blair and most of the House.

I believe that the BBC is biased against Brexit. However, the BBC also
cheerleaded the disastrous intervention in Libya spreading war propaganda such
as the claimed viagra shipments to Col Gaddafi's alleged randy troops. A
subsequent parliament report admitted the claims were exaggerated and what was
initially about protecting civilians in Benghazi morphed into regime change. The
BBC was brought to heel and its Director General got rid of under arch-remain
New Labour after Andrew Gilligan went rogue and started to question the divine
motives of those that drafted the dodgy-dossier. The BBC can oppose Brexit
because the elites are divided at the very top of government that still headed
by a notionally remain PM(though she is a bit coy about this).

The BBC is counterbalanced by the constant denouncing of remoaner enemies,
traitors, rebels and mutineers by the Barclay Bros, USA billionaire, offshore
hedge fund owned press.

Post by pullgees
Of course that's what you want because
the bottom line is you are a Remainer.

I quite understand that there are slimeballs in the remain camp. That does not
detract from other slimeballs that were happy to pose in front of a lying
battlebus and didn't tell us about the £50 billion the UK was prepared to pay to
the hated EU so that a suitable deal could be had with the EU27 whilst allowing
the free-traders, low regulation oh so Priti, very very Priti*... brigade persue
their exit the Customs Union dreams of the 51st state of the Land of the Free
tariff free low workers rights paradise.

[*] Apologies to private-eye.co.uk

pullgees

2017-11-30 08:53:13 UTC

Post by Altroy1
[....]

Post by Altroy1
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/08/im-a-brexit-extremist-and-proud-of-it/

Post by pullgees
Yes you've already said. Shooting the messenger is all you have.
You must be a George Monbiot fanboy.Let me know what Polly Toynbee
has to say on the matter as well.

I don't have a lot of time for Polly's opinions.
Ad-hominems rightly are frequently seen as playing the man not the ball.
There are exceptions such when the man plays himself as that ball, posing as a
defender of the working class against the wicked elites. This is a man who
defends big sugar. Rots childrens teeth then we are told that fluoride is needed
in the water to deal with the consequences of that big sugar. True believer Tate
and Lyle (actually American Sugar Refining Inc) backs Brexit so that there can
be more cheap Carribbean and American sugar (rather than the wicked EU's sugar
beet) bundled into the cavities of UK children's teeth. Give me a break.

Yep, your usual reply, nothing to do with the article but find all you can on the author, and you piously talk about ad hominem Your tactic is to enter into other issues in order to fog and eventually lose the original subject, conveniently.

Post by Altroy1
What was it Gove said? We've had enough of experts. Lets add the like of Brendan
O'Neill to that list.

I believe that the BBC is biased against Brexit. However, the BBC also
cheerleaded the disastrous intervention in Libya spreading war propaganda such
as the claimed viagra shipments to Col Gaddafi's alleged randy troops. A
subsequent parliament report admitted the claims were exaggerated and what was
initially about protecting civilians in Benghazi morphed into regime change. The
BBC was brought to heel and its Director General got rid of under arch-remain
New Labour after Andrew Gilligan went rogue and started to question the divine
motives of those that drafted the dodgy-dossier. The BBC can oppose Brexit
because the elites are divided at the very top of government that still headed
by a notionally remain PM(though she is a bit coy about this).
The BBC is counterbalanced by the constant denouncing of remoaner enemies,
traitors, rebels and mutineers by the Barclay Bros, USA billionaire, offshore
hedge fund owned press.

Not counter balanced at all, what's going on now is extremely undemocratic and shameful.

Post by pullgees
Of course that's what you want because
the bottom line is you are a Remainer.

Just think if more people had listen to the lies of the Remain campaign, you would have have won! Oh the pain of it.
You are just raving now, you forgot the Russians by the way... Oh God I wish I hadn't mentioned that.

Altroy1

2017-11-30 16:00:46 UTC

[....]

Post by Altroy1
Ad-hominems rightly are frequently seen as playing the man not the ball.
There are exceptions such when the man plays himself as that ball, posing as a
defender of the working class against the wicked elites. This is a man who
defends big sugar. Rots childrens teeth then we are told that fluoride is needed
in the water to deal with the consequences of that big sugar. True believer Tate
and Lyle (actually American Sugar Refining Inc) backs Brexit so that there can
be more cheap Carribbean and American sugar (rather than the wicked EU's sugar
beet) bundled into the cavities of UK children's teeth. Give me a break.

Yep, your usual reply, nothing to do with the article but find all you
can on the author,

It has every thing to do with the subject line. A certain Brendan O'neill
pontificating about the elites is a man who writes for the Torygraph and the
Spectator. Neither of which I suspect are top reading material in the pubs and
workers clubs of Toxteth or Bolsover. A climate change denying, same sex
marriage opposing, tooth rotting big sugar supporting, posh basher deploring
overpaid pumped up popinjay.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100176602/posh-bashing-has-replaced-prole-bashing-as-the-nastiest-strain-in-british-politics/

The Establishment is divided on Brexit. To suggest otherwise is blind denial.

End of.

Post by pullgees
and you piously talk about ad hominem Your tactic is
to enter into other issues in order to fog and eventually lose the
original subject, conveniently.

The pious talk concerns the narrative about the poor defenceless leave voting
working class versus the rich, powerful wicked remain elites. Yes it is fairly
obvious the BBC opposes Brexit. The BBC is also guilty of warmongering. An
obvious example was the constant refrain back in 2011 and 2012 that something
must be done about Assad who was "killing his own people". By that analogy
Abraham Lincoln was killing his own people. Both fought dirty wars and for the
simiar reason of mantaining the political coherency of their countries.

Since I'm not into supporting the nonsense that the Establishment is not divided
- that one side only (leave) has the monopoly of truth, justice and purity I'm
not going into excessive detail of the undesirables in the remain camp. The
worst arguably a lie of Remain was probably the bit about a leave vote requiring
an emergency budget. By way of contrast the leave camp spun a lie, put it on a
battlebus and spread the same message on billboards the length and breadth of
the land. The same lot that lied and lied and lied about AV because FPTP best
preserves the two party duopoly. The same lot that pontificate day and daily
about "unelected Brussels Bureaucrats" yet oppose tooth and nail an elected HoL
because such an appalling vista would threaten the FPTP elected Commons.

It is self evident that there are remain wealthy elites. Ken Clarke - you could
have mentioned his links with British-American Tobacco(Steve Bell used to much
mock him about this in cartoons). But at least the remain camp are not posing as
working class proletarian heroes.

Here is something to read about regarding Moggmentum's dear darling and scourge
of the wealthy elites Jacob Rees-Mogg:

https://life.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/many-many-millions-mogg/

Rees-Mogg's wife, the former Helena de Chair, brought her own
money to the marriage. She is the daughter of Lady Juliet Tadgell,
formerly Marchioness of Bristol, and ex-Tory MP, author and poet
Somerset de Chair. Lady Juliet is heir to the Fitzwilliam fortune
and has an estimated net worth of £45 million, all of which Helena
stands to inherit as her only surviving child. It was under one of
his mother-in-law's six Van Dycks that Rees-Mogg proposed to
Helena at Bourne Park, her mother's stately home in Kent, which
she also stands to inherit.

Post by Altroy1
The BBC is counterbalanced by the constant denouncing of remoaner enemies,
traitors, rebels and mutineers by the Barclay Bros, USA billionaire, offshore
hedge fund owned press.

Not counter balanced at all, what's going on now is extremely
undemocratic and shameful.

No more shameful than the Farage declaration that a narrow remain win would not
resolve the situation and that the agitation to leave the EU would continue.

No more shameful than city banker Farage, mocking the EU parliament and
threatening them that Britain would not be the only country to leave. For good
measure, and to butress the point, he supported the Marine Le Pen campaign in
France.

No more shameful than a tabloid, owned by an insanely rich offshore fund using
owner, labeling judges who decided that Parliament not the unelected Royal
Perogative would invoke A50 - "enemies of the people". The same article went on
to denounce one of the judges as a EU-loving poofter who, ugh, lived with his
boyfriend.

Small wonder too many of these leavers want to bring back imperial measures,
beating children in school, the death penalty and put the poofs back into the
closet.

https://oedeboyz.com/2017/04/21/theresa-may-will-she-deliver-a-brexit-paradise-on-june-8th-2017/

Posted on April 21, 2017 by odeboyz

"On the day that Theresa May triggered article 50, YouGov
published a survey of the things people whould like brought back
after Britain has left the EU. Top of the list was the death
penalty, with 52% of those who voted to leave wishing to see its
return. Other things that leavers were keen on were the return of
the dark blue passports, pre-decimal currency, imperial measures,
smoking in pubs and corporal punishment in schools. The idea that
voting to leave the EU was a vote for an exciting new world of
21st century sovereignty, rather than a desire to head back to a
nostalgic, rose-tinted vision fo the 1950s and 1960s Britain, is
harder to sustain."

Post by pullgees
Just think if more people had listen to the lies of the Remain campaign,
you would have have won! Oh the pain of it. You are just raving now, you
forgot the Russians by the way... Oh God I wish I hadn't mentioned that.

You're attacking me for diverting then you are, er, diverting.

pullgees

2017-11-30 17:44:57 UTC

Post by Altroy1
[....]

needed

Post by Altroy1
in the water to deal with the consequences of that big sugar. True believer

Tate

Post by Altroy1
and Lyle (actually American Sugar Refining Inc) backs Brexit so that there can
be more cheap Carribbean and American sugar (rather than the wicked EU's sugar
beet) bundled into the cavities of UK children's teeth. Give me a break.

Yep, your usual reply, nothing to do with the article but find all you
can on the author,

You have not said anything about the article,all you do is go galloping off on your hobby horse and rant away about sugar, or the Tory Press, some of which is pro remain. I've told you before about this, you sound like a crank or maybe trying to impress an imagined audience. Is anyone reading now? I doubt it.

Post by Altroy1
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100176602/posh-bashing-has-replaced-prole-bashing-as-the-nastiest-strain-in-british-politics/
The Establishment is divided on Brexit. To suggest otherwise is blind denial.
End of.

Post by pullgees
and you piously talk about ad hominem Your tactic is
to enter into other issues in order to fog and eventually lose the
original subject, conveniently.

The pious talk concerns the narrative about the poor defenceless leave voting
working class versus the rich, powerful wicked remain elites. Yes it is fairly
obvious the BBC opposes Brexit. The BBC is also guilty of warmongering. An
obvious example was the constant refrain back in 2011 and 2012 that something
must be done about Assad who was "killing his own people". By that analogy
Abraham Lincoln was killing his own people. Both fought dirty wars and for the
simiar reason of mantaining the political coherency of their countries.
Since I'm not into supporting the nonsense that the Establishment is not divided
- that one side only (leave) has the monopoly of truth, justice and purity I'm
not going into excessive detail of the undesirables in the remain camp. The
worst arguably a lie of Remain was probably the bit about a leave vote requiring
an emergency budget. By way of contrast the leave camp spun a lie, put it on a
battlebus and spread the same message on billboards the length and breadth of
the land. The same lot that lied and lied and lied about AV because FPTP best
preserves the two party duopoly. The same lot that pontificate day and daily
about "unelected Brussels Bureaucrats" yet oppose tooth and nail an elected HoL
because such an appalling vista would threaten the FPTP elected Commons.
It is self evident that there are remain wealthy elites. Ken Clarke - you could
have mentioned his links with British-American Tobacco(Steve Bell used to much
mock him about this in cartoons). But at least the remain camp are not posing as
working class proletarian heroes.
Here is something to read about regarding Moggmentum's dear darling and scourge
https://life.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/many-many-millions-mogg/
Rees-Mogg's wife, the former Helena de Chair, brought her own
money to the marriage. She is the daughter of Lady Juliet Tadgell,
formerly Marchioness of Bristol, and ex-Tory MP, author and poet
Somerset de Chair. Lady Juliet is heir to the Fitzwilliam fortune
and has an estimated net worth of £45 million, all of which Helena
stands to inherit as her only surviving child. It was under one of
his mother-in-law's six Van Dycks that Rees-Mogg proposed to
Helena at Bourne Park, her mother's stately home in Kent, which
she also stands to inherit.

Again you are confusing wealth with elite. This is an embittered socialist stance, embittered because they always lose. Only themselves to blame as they can't make distinctions, rich = bad, that's it. Your thinking is blocked by your dogma.

Post by Altroy1
The BBC is counterbalanced by the constant denouncing of remoaner enemies,
traitors, rebels and mutineers by the Barclay Bros, USA billionaire, offshore
hedge fund owned press.

Not counter balanced at all, what's going on now is extremely
undemocratic and shameful.

All your doing is using this opportunity to spew out your whole political mindset an of course nothing about the article.

Post by Altroy1
Small wonder too many of these leavers want to bring back imperial measures,
beating children in school, the death penalty and put the poofs back into the
closet.

You live in a weird world a bit brainwashed, like a student activist whose professor has got into head.

Post by Altroy1
https://oedeboyz.com/2017/04/21/theresa-may-will-she-deliver-a-brexit-paradise-on-june-8th-2017/
Posted on April 21, 2017 by odeboyz
"On the day that Theresa May triggered article 50, YouGov
published a survey of the things people whould like brought back
after Britain has left the EU. Top of the list was the death
penalty, with 52% of those who voted to leave wishing to see its
return. Other things that leavers were keen on were the return of
the dark blue passports, pre-decimal currency, imperial measures,
smoking in pubs and corporal punishment in schools. The idea that
voting to leave the EU was a vote for an exciting new world of
21st century sovereignty, rather than a desire to head back to a
nostalgic, rose-tinted vision fo the 1950s and 1960s Britain, is
harder to sustain."

Absolutely nothing to do with the article. Really you should start your own thread. I've not a topic by you, do you have a problem?

You're attacking me for diverting then you are, er, diverting.

No, I haven't got the time you have. I do feel flattered that you are spending so much energy on me, I must be important to you.

Altroy1

2017-11-30 20:39:39 UTC

pullgees wrote:

[....]

You're attacking me for diverting then you are, er, diverting.

No, I haven't got the time you have. I do feel flattered that
you are spending so much energy on me, I must be important to you.

No problem. Time to spend a little less energy. I did address the claims of that
article. The establishment and ruling elites are divided on the EU issue.
Period. We have debated to the point of diminishing returns. Readers can make up
their minds yay or nay. Enjoy the rest of your day.

pullgees

2017-12-01 11:38:37 UTC

Post by Altroy1
[....]

You're attacking me for diverting then you are, er, diverting.

No, I haven't got the time you have. I do feel flattered that
you are spending so much energy on me, I must be important to you.

Yeah you as well, but it's a bit narcissistic to imagine there are any readers left now except of course my uk.legal friend Ophelia.

Ophelia

2017-12-01 17:13:55 UTC

Post by Altroy1
[....]

Post by pullgees
Just think if more people had listen to the lies of the Remain

campaign,

Post by pullgees
you would have have won! Oh the pain of it. You are just raving now,

you

Post by pullgees
forgot the Russians by the way... Oh God I wish I hadn't mentioned

that.
You're attacking me for diverting then you are, er, diverting.

No, I haven't got the time you have. I do feel flattered that
you are spending so much energy on me, I must be important to you.

Yeah you as well, but it's a bit narcissistic to imagine there are any
readers left now except of course my uk.legal friend Ophelia.

==

At least you have common sense and you are not trying to twist
everything.like that arrogant pos.

You have more patience with him than I ever could. Well done.

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

pamela

2017-12-01 00:57:03 UTC

Post by Altroy1
Small wonder too many of these leavers want to bring back
imperial measures, beating children in school, the death penalty
and put the poofs back into the closet.

Ophelia

2017-11-30 17:22:03 UTC

Post by Altroy1
[....]

Post by Altroy1
The tabloid media, run by the like of Rupert Murdoch. Remember

Murdoch?

Post by pullgees
For a start News Corp is not all tabloid

Post by Altroy1
a cheerleader for every neocon regime change war proposed: Iraq,

Libya,
Syria. A

Post by Altroy1
wealthy US citizen billionaire that backed Brexit along with most of

the other

Post by Altroy1
print media. Doesn't mind the UK or anyone else sending taxpayer Â£350

million

Post by Altroy1
per week to pay for some kind of regime change war or other.

As I said before, we need some big guns and as he is
supporting the majority and not seeking to wreck the decision
he is not one of the elite in this case. The article is
talking about the obstructionists now on the current topic of
Brexit.

Both sides have people who hold strong views.
So, then, had the Remain side won 52 - 48, then as Farage candidly admitted
the agitation against the EU would continue. The Bankers, hedge funds,
the Atlantic Bridge and Adam Smith types would not have accepted
a narrow remain win. Not ever.

You love to digress away from the article but refuse to face what is
happening right now. We are faced with a situation where the whole might of
the political class trying to stop Brexit.

Post by Altroy1
You also fail to mention the very powerful elite that turned around

opinion

Post by Altroy1
polls from 2/3rds in favour of the alternative vote to 1/3. The

alternative

Post by Altroy1
vote was portrayed in poster by two boxers, the knocked down loser had

his hand

Post by Altroy1
raised and underneath was the caption Under AV the > > loser can win
Of course there is NO DIFFERENCE between FPTP and AV in a two horse

race. And

Post by Altroy1
those liars knew it.

Again the vast majority of those with power are doing

No. The Cabinet, main political parties and country are divided.
What's not divided is the tabloid press - the press that called one
of the judges that voted against the Royal Perogative a poofter (eww!)
others "enemies of the people". Strange enemies they were too,
supporting parliamentary scruitiny before invoking A50 versus
ministerial diktat via an unelected Monarch's ancient powers.

You cut my reply so that's cheating. Anyway there you go again charging off
to another topic in full rant. Out flowing all your political problems on
me. Get some counselling or something, you are badly hurt.

Post by pullgees
everything they can to Stop Brexit. Any rich and powerful
person supporting Brexit is not acting as an elite
individual. Check the def again, which you avoided.

That's not correct, they are a large group. Use a proper dictionary not
Wiki.

Post by Altroy1
London, Merseyside, Scotland, Northern Ireland voted remain.
That doesn't meet a definition of elite as far as I can see.

Oh dear! Where are we going now. Countries aren't elite people are,.

Post by Altroy1
Brendan O'Neill is in my eyes a paid shill employed to write gibberish

about
the

Post by Altroy1
people's brexit versus the big bad elites. He's no real defender of

the working

Post by Altroy1
class no matter how hard he tries to give that impression. Monbiot is

right.

Post by pullgees
You keep smearing him, but I note, you haven't said one
argument against what he actually wrote. All you can say and
very overly long about it, is that there are elites on both
sides. The actual elites are the ones opposing the will of
the people and he is right we are being opposed every step of
the way by them to a clean Brexit.

Yes you've already said. Shooting the messenger is all you have. You must be
a George Monbiot fanboy.Let me know what Polly Toynbee has to say on the
matter as well.
Anyway if Brexit has any elite they are sure outnumbered by your's. At the
moment it's non-stop negativity from the media the BBC, The Lords,
Hestletine, Clark, Blair and most of the House. Of course that's what you
want because the bottom line is you are a Remainer.

==

Was that every in doubt?

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Ophelia

2017-11-27 21:35:33 UTC

"pullgees" wrote in message news:6f7eee48-833d-4f81-8aab-***@googlegroups.com...

Brendan O'Neill on the cynical use of the Irish border issue to thwart
Brexit:
'We are living through a revolt of the elites. A revolt of the elites
against the public. Whether they’re using their business clout to stymie
Brexit in court, or their Commons clout to insist on a second referendum, or
the clout of the Irish to put off enacting Brexit, sections of the British
and European political elites are working tirelessly to silence Britons'
democratic voice.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-elites-are-in-revolt-against-the-people/20575

==

It seems to me that if they continue with this, the rest of the EU will not
be pleased.

It just means we will leave without a deal and they get No Money!!!

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

pullgees

2017-11-27 23:14:22 UTC

Post by pullgees
'We are living through a revolt of the elites. A revolt of the elites
against the public. Whether they’re using their business clout to stymie
Brexit in court, or their Commons clout to insist on a second referendum, or
the clout of the Irish to put off enacting Brexit, sections of the British
and European political elites are working tirelessly to silence Britons'
democratic voice.
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-elites-are-in-revolt-against-the-people/20575
==
It seems to me that if they continue with this, the rest of the EU will not
be pleased.
It just means we will leave without a deal and they get No Money!!!
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Yes they are putting up every conceivable block they can and if we leave without a deal they will have only themselves to blame.

Ophelia

2017-11-28 15:24:36 UTC

Post by pullgees
'We are living through a revolt of the elites. A revolt of the elites
against the public. Whether they’re using their business clout to stymie
Brexit in court, or their Commons clout to insist on a second referendum, or
the clout of the Irish to put off enacting Brexit, sections of the British
and European political elites are working tirelessly to silence Britons'
democratic voice.
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-elites-are-in-revolt-against-the-people/20575
==
It seems to me that if they continue with this, the rest of the EU will not
be pleased.
It just means we will leave without a deal and they get No Money!!!
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Yes they are putting up every conceivable block they can and if we leave
without a deal they will have only themselves to blame.

==

The biggies in the EU will come down on the Leaders of the ROI like a ton of
bricks LOL

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

pullgees

2017-11-28 16:34:39 UTC

Post by pullgees
'We are living through a revolt of the elites. A revolt of the elites
against the public. Whether they’re using their business clout to stymie
Brexit in court, or their Commons clout to insist on a second referendum, or
the clout of the Irish to put off enacting Brexit, sections of the British
and European political elites are working tirelessly to silence Britons'
democratic voice.
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-elites-are-in-revolt-against-the-people/20575
==
It seems to me that if they continue with this, the rest of the EU will not
be pleased.
It just means we will leave without a deal and they get No Money!!!
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Yes they are putting up every conceivable block they can and if we leave
without a deal they will have only themselves to blame.
==
The biggies in the EU will come down on the Leaders of the ROI like a ton of
bricks LOL
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Yep they want our 40 billion and they won't let ROI stand in the way.

Ophelia

2017-11-28 17:03:20 UTC

Post by pullgees
'We are living through a revolt of the elites. A revolt of the elites
against the public. Whether they’re using their business clout to stymie
Brexit in court, or their Commons clout to insist on a second
referendum,
or
the clout of the Irish to put off enacting Brexit, sections of the British
and European political elites are working tirelessly to silence Britons'
democratic voice.
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-elites-are-in-revolt-against-the-people/20575
==
It seems to me that if they continue with this, the rest of the EU will not
be pleased.
It just means we will leave without a deal and they get No Money!!!
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Yes they are putting up every conceivable block they can and if we leave
without a deal they will have only themselves to blame.
==
The biggies in the EU will come down on the Leaders of the ROI like a ton of
bricks LOL
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Yep they want our 40 billion and they won't let ROI stand in the way.

==

It will be interesting to see how they will play it. I just heard the
deputy pm has resigned. Is this the start?

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

pullgees

2017-11-28 17:44:35 UTC

Post by pullgees
'We are living through a revolt of the elites. A revolt of the elites
against the public. Whether they’re using their business clout to stymie
Brexit in court, or their Commons clout to insist on a second
referendum,
or
the clout of the Irish to put off enacting Brexit, sections of the British
and European political elites are working tirelessly to silence Britons'
democratic voice.
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-elites-are-in-revolt-against-the-people/20575
==
It seems to me that if they continue with this, the rest of the EU will not
be pleased.
It just means we will leave without a deal and they get No Money!!!
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Yes they are putting up every conceivable block they can and if we leave
without a deal they will have only themselves to blame.
==
The biggies in the EU will come down on the Leaders of the ROI like a ton of
bricks LOL
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Yep they want our 40 billion and they won't let ROI stand in the way.
==
It will be interesting to see how they will play it. I just heard the
deputy pm has resigned. Is this the start?
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

I don't know Irish politics, but it looks like their are some deep cracks in the coalition. I wonder what the other parties think about the border issue?

Ophelia

2017-11-28 18:56:51 UTC

Post by pullgees
'We are living through a revolt of the elites. A revolt of the elites
against the public. Whether they’re using their business clout to stymie
Brexit in court, or their Commons clout to insist on a second
referendum,
or
the clout of the Irish to put off enacting Brexit, sections of the British
and European political elites are working tirelessly to silence Britons'
democratic voice.
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-elites-are-in-revolt-against-the-people/20575
==
It seems to me that if they continue with this, the rest of the EU
will
not
be pleased.
It just means we will leave without a deal and they get No Money!!!
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Yes they are putting up every conceivable block they can and if we leave
without a deal they will have only themselves to blame.
==
The biggies in the EU will come down on the Leaders of the ROI like a
ton
of
bricks LOL
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

I don't know Irish politics, but it looks like their are some deep cracks in
the coalition. I wonder what the other parties think about the border issue?

==

it will be very interesting to find out :)

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Paul Pot

2017-11-28 19:48:21 UTC