Lord of the Rings stats for D&D

There are two versions of Gandalf, before and after slaying the Balrog. He
was (relatively) easily captured by Saruman the first time around, but
shattered S.' staff with a brief word the second time around.

Post by Rump Ranger
Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd no
doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery skills
and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and Gimli).

The movie version also needs some acrobatics, but the book version doesn't as
far as I recall.

Post by Rump Ranger
Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the beginning of
the Hobbit he doesn't know much), a few levels of rogue (for his
adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he doesn't
cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.

I think you could go with rogue from the beginning, since Bilbo was taken on
as a 'burglar'.

Post by Rump Ranger
Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above normal
hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him). Only
problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more expert
levels?

Frodo is problematic. I don't know what to do with him either. He has to
have enough levels to be able to resist the Ring for a long while, but not so
many that he can't eventually fail.

Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters

What about Eowen?

Post by Rump Ranger
I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in any
case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?

Elrond may have some fighter levels; he was Gil-Galad's herald at the battle
where Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand. He could command the Bruinen
(?) river near Rivendell, and heal Frodo, so perhaps some levels of Druid?

The ones I clipped seem reasonable to me.

One question that occurs to me: does MERP give statistics for the major
characters and, if so, how close did they come to what you've suggested?

--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

Rump Ranger

2005-01-07 17:19:32 UTC

Then

Post by Rump Ranger
again, we never really see Gandalf's true power. His job was to
inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
(I'd say epic levels).

True enough. Gandalf the Grey certainly wasn't as powerful as Gandalf
the White.

Gimli).

Post by David Alex Lamb
The movie version also needs some acrobatics, but the book version doesn't as
far as I recall.

Well, in the books Tolkien doesn't get too much into specifics on
Legolas in combat other than to say he was one hell of a shot with his
bow. The movies had him doing some real acrobatic things and I
wouldn't be suprised if he was acrobatic in the book version. He also
would have some ranks in perform (song) because he was a great singer.

I think you could go with rogue from the beginning, since Bilbo was taken on
as a 'burglar'.

Disagree. Bilbo starts as a commoner. No real world skills (outside
of maybe cooking and smoking) and he was literally pushed out his door
by Gandalf despite the dwarves thinking he wasn't going to be all that
good of a companion. If he was a rogue, I don't know where he would
have learned any of his skills. After doing some of the adventures,
I'd say he progressed into rogue. Gandalf knew for some reason that
he'd do something big.

Post by Rump Ranger
Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above normal
hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him).

Only

Post by Rump Ranger
problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more expert
levels?

Frodo is problematic. I don't know what to do with him either. He has to
have enough levels to be able to resist the Ring for a long while, but not so
many that he can't eventually fail.

Will saves, I'd agree. But as far as class skills, he didn't do any
fighting and he didn't seem like much of a sneak. A regular guy caught
up in all that (and he eventually did fail and was only saved by
Gollum). I'd say the Ring doesn't assert itself until it wishes to
stay with Frodo and in all cases he failed. Remember, he was thinking
of hitting Bilbo at Rivendell when Bilbo wanted to check out the Ring
and even came on two occasions IIRC to coming to blows with Sam over
the Ring. It's obvious Frodo would never part with it willingly (Bilbo
did with Gandalf's help). Tolkien made it clear in many parts during
his journey that he had doubts as to whether he'd throw it into the
Crack of Doom when the time came.

Sam was the only person in the history of the Ring to give it to
another person willingly (Bilbo dropped it on the floor).

Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters

What about Eowen?

Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
to smite the Witch King. Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
to do with it.

Post by Rump Ranger
I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in any
case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?

Possibly. He's tough too because his full power is never revealed in
LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he has
two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to wonder how
they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.

Post by David Alex Lamb
The ones I clipped seem reasonable to me.

Another toughy: Tom Bambadil. The Ring had no effect on him and he
wasn't bothered by barrow-wights but would he be able to take Sauron on
in a one on one fight (if it ever came to that)? It'd be interesting
to see.

Post by David Alex Lamb
One question that occurs to me: does MERP give statistics for the major
characters and, if so, how close did they come to what you've

suggested?
I never checked out MERP, mainly because I never liked the publisher's
rule intensive books and thousands of charts. I had a bad experience
looking at Rolemaster products. Too much detail.

David Alex Lamb

2005-01-07 17:28:15 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters

What about Eowen?

Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
to smite the Witch King. Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
to do with it.

There is also the 'prophecy' that "no man could slay the Witch King"; I don't
know how to take that into account, except perhaps a spell-like add to combat
skill.

Post by Rump Ranger
Another toughy: Tom Bambadil. The Ring had no effect on him and he
wasn't bothered by barrow-wights but would he be able to take Sauron on
in a one on one fight (if it ever came to that)? It'd be interesting
to see.

I just read the section about the Council of Elrond to my son last night, and
the worthies believed that Bombadil would be the last to fall to Sauron, but
he'd fall in the end.

--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

Rump Ranger

2005-01-07 17:42:24 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters

What about Eowen?

Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
to smite the Witch King. Although Merry's barrow-blade had

something

Post by Rump Ranger
to do with it.

There is also the 'prophecy' that "no man could slay the Witch King";

I don't

Post by David Alex Lamb
know how to take that into account, except perhaps a spell-like add to combat
skill.

Maybe a holy smite ability?

interesting

Post by Rump Ranger
to see.

I just read the section about the Council of Elrond to my son last night, and
the worthies believed that Bombadil would be the last to fall to Sauron, but
he'd fall in the end.

That's right, because Gandalf said so (and he's the only one who really
knew outside of perhaps Elrond). Didn't one of them (Glorfindel IIRC)
suggest they give the Ring to Bambadil to hold?

David Alex Lamb

2005-01-08 00:00:38 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Another toughy: Tom Bambadil. The Ring had no effect on him and he
wasn't bothered by barrow-wights but would he be able to take Sauron

Post by Rump Ranger
in a one on one fight (if it ever came to that)? It'd be

interesting

Post by Rump Ranger
to see.

I just read the section about the Council of Elrond to my son last

night, and

Post by David Alex Lamb
the worthies believed that Bombadil would be the last to fall to

Sauron, but

Post by David Alex Lamb
he'd fall in the end.

That's right, because Gandalf said so (and he's the only one who really
knew outside of perhaps Elrond). Didn't one of them (Glorfindel IIRC)
suggest they give the Ring to Bambadil to hold?

I forget who suggested it, but someone did.

--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

a***@cox.net

2005-01-08 12:10:45 UTC

Rump Ranger wrote:
<snip Tom Bombadil and the Council of Elrond>

Didn't one of them (Glorfindel IIRC) suggest
they give the Ring to Bambadil to hold?

It was Erestor, Elrond's chief counsellor. He said "Would he not take
the Ring and keep it there, for ever harmless?" (FotR pp. 315, 348)
.
.
Arivne

Hong Ooi

2005-01-08 12:25:28 UTC

Post by a***@cox.net
<snip Tom Bombadil and the Council of Elrond>

Didn't one of them (Glorfindel IIRC) suggest
they give the Ring to Bambadil to hold?

It was Erestor, Elrond's chief counsellor. He said "Would he not take
the Ring and keep it there, for ever harmless?" (FotR pp. 315, 348)

"This ring was on Isildur's finger when he was slain in battle at the
Gladden Fields. Your daddy was captured and taken to Dol Guldur. Now he
knew if the ringwraiths ever saw the ring, he'd be a grease spot. So he hid
it in the one place he knew he could hide something. His ass. Five long
centuries, he wore this ring up his ass. Then when he died of dysentery, he
gave the ring to me. I hid this uncomfortable hunk of metal up my ass for
two centuries. Then, after nine centuries of Man, I escaped. And now,
little man, I give the ring to you."

--
Hong Ooi | "COUNTERSRTIKE IS AN REAL-TIME
***@zipworld.com.au | STRATEGY GAME!!!"
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | -- RR
Sydney, Australia |

Mark Blunden

2005-01-08 16:21:39 UTC

Post by Hong Ooi

Post by a***@cox.net
<snip Tom Bombadil and the Council of Elrond>

Didn't one of them (Glorfindel IIRC) suggest
they give the Ring to Bambadil to hold?

It was Erestor, Elrond's chief counsellor. He said "Would he not
take the Ring and keep it there, for ever harmless?" (FotR pp. 315,
348)

"This ring was on Isildur's finger when he was slain in battle at the
Gladden Fields. Your daddy was captured and taken to Dol Guldur. Now
he knew if the ringwraiths ever saw the ring, he'd be a grease spot.
So he hid it in the one place he knew he could hide something. His
ass. Five long centuries, he wore this ring up his ass. Then when he
died of dysentery, he gave the ring to me. I hid this uncomfortable
hunk of metal up my ass for two centuries. Then, after nine centuries
of Man, I escaped. And now, little man, I give the ring to you."

"Well, at least you already know where you can shove it."

--
Mark.

John Phillips

2005-01-07 18:06:28 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters

What about Eowen?

Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
to smite the Witch King. Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
to do with it.

There is also the 'prophecy' that "no man could slay the Witch King"; I don't
know how to take that into account, except perhaps a spell-like add to combat
skill.

All his DR and what not are not effective vs.Women/Hobbits?

John

Rump Ranger

2005-01-07 18:25:01 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level

fighters

Post by David Alex Lamb
What about Eowen?

Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
to smite the Witch King. Although Merry's barrow-blade had

something

Post by Rump Ranger
to do with it.

There is also the 'prophecy' that "no man could slay the Witch

King"; I

Post by Rump Ranger
don't

Post by David Alex Lamb
know how to take that into account, except perhaps a spell-like add

Post by Rump Ranger
combat

Post by David Alex Lamb
skill.

All his DR and what not are not effective vs.Women/Hobbits?

The blade Merry used had special properties which pierced him. It's
debatable whether Eowyn would have been able to damage him without that
special blade striking him.

John Phillips

2005-01-08 01:09:08 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level

fighters

Post by David Alex Lamb
What about Eowen?

Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being

able

Post by Rump Ranger
to smite the Witch King. Although Merry's barrow-blade had

something

Post by Rump Ranger
to do with it.

There is also the 'prophecy' that "no man could slay the Witch

King"; I

Post by Rump Ranger
don't

Post by David Alex Lamb
know how to take that into account, except perhaps a spell-like add

Post by Rump Ranger
combat

Post by David Alex Lamb
skill.

All his DR and what not are not effective vs.Women/Hobbits?

The blade Merry used had special properties which pierced him. It's
debatable whether Eowyn would have been able to damage him without that
special blade striking him.

Ringwraith Bane sword.

John

Peter Mork

2005-01-07 17:39:57 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Possibly. He's tough too because his full power is never revealed in
LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he has
two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to wonder how
they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.

In the old (ICE) LOTR role-playing game, Sauron was level 2N when he made
the ring. He invested N of his levels into the ring, leaving him at level
N. However, the ring granted Sauron +2N levels. Thus:
Pre-ring-crafting: 2N
Post-ring-crafting with ring: 3N
Without ring: N

(Where N is some suitably ridiculous number. IIRC they chose N=40, in a
system in which characters pretty much maxed out at level 10.)

Peter

Shadow Wolf

2005-01-07 18:45:05 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Possibly. He's tough too because his full power is never revealed in
LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he
has two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to wonder
how they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.

In the old (ICE) LOTR role-playing game, Sauron was level 2N when he
made the ring. He invested N of his levels into the ring, leaving him
Pre-ring-crafting: 2N
Post-ring-crafting with ring: 3N
Without ring: N
(Where N is some suitably ridiculous number. IIRC they chose N=40, in
a system in which characters pretty much maxed out at level 10.)
Peter

This sounds roughly like Item Familiar to me...

--
Shadow Wolf
shadow_wolf1 at hotpop dot com
Stories at http://www.asstr.org/~Shadow_Wolf
AIF at http://www.geocities.com/shadowolf3400

Rump Ranger

2005-01-07 18:46:32 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Possibly. He's tough too because his full power is never revealed in
LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he
has two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to wonder
how they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.

This sounds roughly like Item Familiar to me...

Where is that from?

Shadow Wolf

2005-01-07 18:52:38 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Possibly. He's tough too because his full power is never revealed

Post by Rump Ranger
LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he
has two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to

wonder

Post by Rump Ranger
how they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.

In the old (ICE) LOTR role-playing game, Sauron was level 2N when

Post by Peter Mork
made the ring. He invested N of his levels into the ring, leaving

him

Post by Peter Mork
Pre-ring-crafting: 2N
Post-ring-crafting with ring: 3N
Without ring: N
(Where N is some suitably ridiculous number. IIRC they chose N=40,

Post by Peter Mork
a system in which characters pretty much maxed out at level 10.)
Peter

This sounds roughly like Item Familiar to me...

Where is that from?

The new Unearthed Arcana.

--
Shadow Wolf
shadow_wolf1 at hotpop dot com
Stories at http://www.asstr.org/~Shadow_Wolf
AIF at http://www.geocities.com/shadowolf3400

Rump Ranger

2005-01-07 20:36:27 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Possibly. He's tough too because his full power is never revealed

Post by Rump Ranger
LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he
has two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to

wonder

Post by Rump Ranger
how they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.

In the old (ICE) LOTR role-playing game, Sauron was level 2N when

Post by Peter Mork
made the ring. He invested N of his levels into the ring, leaving

him

Post by Peter Mork
Pre-ring-crafting: 2N
Post-ring-crafting with ring: 3N
Without ring: N
(Where N is some suitably ridiculous number. IIRC they chose N=40,

Post by Peter Mork
a system in which characters pretty much maxed out at level 10.)
Peter

This sounds roughly like Item Familiar to me...

Where is that from?

The new Unearthed Arcana.

Ah. I don't have that. Anyone think the Complete Arcane is worth it?
If it's better than Complete Warrior I'd be pretty happy.

David Alex Lamb

2005-01-08 00:03:54 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Ah. I don't have that. Anyone think the Complete Arcane is worth it?
If it's better than Complete Warrior I'd be pretty happy.

I recently read through CA for the first time; I think CW is *more* useful,
IMC at least.

--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

Rump Ranger

2005-01-08 20:54:31 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Ah. I don't have that. Anyone think the Complete Arcane is worth it?
If it's better than Complete Warrior I'd be pretty happy.

I recently read through CA for the first time; I think CW is *more* useful,
IMC at least.

Is it that your campaign is more a martial one is it that a lot in CA
is just average? I wasn't wowed over by much in CW (finding a few
prestige classes useful here and there) but found other PrCs lacking (I
could use an Eye of Gruumsh but the Elven one which focuses on killing
orcs is way too single-minded to be used).

Rump Ranger

2005-01-07 21:12:39 UTC

In the old (ICE) LOTR role-playing game, Sauron was level 2N when he made
the ring. He invested N of his levels into the ring, leaving him at level
Pre-ring-crafting: 2N
Post-ring-crafting with ring: 3N
Without ring: N
(Where N is some suitably ridiculous number. IIRC they chose N=40, in a
system in which characters pretty much maxed out at level 10.)

Makes sense. Where was Gandalf in levels and did the ability to gain
+?N levels apply to those who mastered the Ring? IIRC, in the books it
was hinted that if Gandalf, Elrond, or Galadriel (possibly Celeborn,
Glorfindel, Aragorn, or Saruman) had the Ring and had enough time to
master it, they'd probably be able to overthrow and destroy Sauron.
Only problem is that the Ring would turn them into the next Dark Lord
and hence why it had to be destroyed.

Peter Knutsen

2005-01-08 13:47:41 UTC

Post by Peter Mork
In the old (ICE) LOTR role-playing game, Sauron was level 2N when he made
the ring. He invested N of his levels into the ring, leaving him at level
Pre-ring-crafting: 2N
Post-ring-crafting with ring: 3N
Without ring: N

Yes, that's basically the way the ring worked.

Another way to think about it would be to think in terms of
spell slots. You permanently sacrifice 3 6th level spell
slots, 3 7th level spell slots and 2 8th level spell slots,
but for this you get a ring which gives you 6 6th level
spell slots, 6 7th level spell slots and 4 8th level spell
slots.

(Although one would have to create mechanics for how others
could put the ring to use - for instance if you sacrificed
Arcane spell slots, could a Divine caster benefit from your
ring if he stole it from you?)

Post by Peter Mork
(Where N is some suitably ridiculous number. IIRC they chose N=40, in a
system in which characters pretty much maxed out at level 10.)

Wasn't it more the case that MERP spell lists stopped at
10th level, so if characters advanced further, you'd have to
buy the Rolemaster books?

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

Ian R Malcomson

2005-01-09 09:54:02 UTC

Wasn't it more the case that MERP spell lists stopped at 10th level, so
if characters advanced further, you'd have to buy the Rolemaster books?

D&D spells stop at 9th, so does that mean D&D is limited to 9th-level?
Okay, so RM extends spell lists up to 50th (and, in some cases in
certain optional books, beyond that). However, a higher-level MERP
(without RM) character is going to gain similar benefits as an
18th+-level D&D one - that is, no more new spell power levels, but more
PP (capable of casting more spells before requiring rest), better chance
of spells working or achieving greater effect (higher spellcasting skill
bonuses - higher Directed Spells OB = more chance of a greater crit;
higher level = greater range, duration, etc. for spells dependent on
character level; etc.).

MERP had no theoretical upper level limit, except for the fact that the
core rulebook was designed around a 10th-level upper basis. In a way,
yes, RM could be used as an aide to advancing MERP beyond 10th, but the
mathematically-minded could extend the various EP tables themselves. RM
and MERP, though compatible, have a number of differences, which is why
an appendix section in the MERP rulebook was required to explain how to
use the two together.

--
Ian R Malcomson
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"

Ophidian

2005-01-08 04:16:34 UTC

Post by David Alex Lamb
What about Eowen?

Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
to smite the Witch King.

From his wording, anyone can hit him or hurt him, but "No man"
can kill him. She only had to be "not a man". Same can be argued
for Merry. The Witch King had a limitation. His slayer had
no particular advantage other than a second X chromone.

Post by Rump Ranger
Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
to do with it.

Magic blade attuned to undead.

Post by Rump Ranger
Another toughy: Tom Bambadil.

Vermin with delusions of Bard-hood.

Post by Rump Ranger
The Ring had no effect on him and he
wasn't bothered by barrow-wights

Gak. At that point I'm thinking Paladin. <g>

Post by Rump Ranger
but would he be able to take Sauron on
in a one on one fight (if it ever came to that)?

<obscure reference>
Well there's this legend about December 25th...
<end obscure reference>

Rump Ranger

2005-01-08 21:41:08 UTC

Post by David Alex Lamb
What about Eowen?

Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
to smite the Witch King.

Merry's blade did lay his defenses down low. There was a special
property to it (one poster said Ringwraith bane sword which is
logical).

Post by Rump Ranger
Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
to do with it.

Magic blade attuned to undead.

Then why did the barrow-wight have them? Orcs and trolls feared them
and felt a degree of disgust when seeing them. Maybe a protection from
evil effect on the wielder?

Post by Rump Ranger
Another toughy: Tom Bambadil.

Vermin with delusions of Bard-hood.

Post by Rump Ranger
The Ring had no effect on him and he
wasn't bothered by barrow-wights

Gak. At that point I'm thinking Paladin. <g>

Heh. Bambadil is an enigma. Probably a diety of some sort but I don't
like D&D's new ways of dealing with them (for starters, dieties and
epic level characters are nearly the same).

Ian R Malcomson

2005-01-08 22:12:09 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Heh. Bambadil is an enigma. Probably a diety of some sort but I don't
like D&D's new ways of dealing with them (for starters, dieties and
epic level characters are nearly the same).

You're kidding! If I was power-maxing, I'd take divine ranks over epic
levels *any* day!

--
Ian R Malcomson
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"

Rump Ranger

2005-01-08 23:38:02 UTC

You're kidding! If I was power-maxing, I'd take divine ranks over epic
levels *any* day!

Maybe so but I don't think both systems go together all that well. In
any case, I don't really use Dieties and Demigods because I think
WotC's first products handled divine power better: the Primal Order.
Certainly a gem of a book (series) which handled divine power in a
unique way.

Rupert Boleyn

2005-01-09 02:09:42 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Maybe so but I don't think both systems go together all that well. In
any case, I don't really use Dieties and Demigods because I think
WotC's first products handled divine power better: the Primal Order.
Certainly a gem of a book (series) which handled divine power in a
unique way.

I thought TPO was very like D&D Immortals.

--
Rupert Boleyn <***@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

Rump Ranger

2005-01-09 02:15:33 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Maybe so but I don't think both systems go together all that well.

Post by Rump Ranger
any case, I don't really use Dieties and Demigods because I think
WotC's first products handled divine power better: the Primal Order.
Certainly a gem of a book (series) which handled divine power in a
unique way.

I thought TPO was very like D&D Immortals.

Never checked that book out so I wouldn't know. In any case, dieties
rarely show up in my campaign outside of background. Directly, it's
usually proxies. Never used an avatar on screen much less the divine
itself.

Mark Blunden

2005-01-08 22:22:52 UTC

Post by David Alex Lamb
What about Eowen?

Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being
able to smite the Witch King.

Merry's blade did lay his defenses down low. There was a special
property to it (one poster said Ringwraith bane sword which is
logical).

That's correct, it's stated in chapter 6 of Return of the King, shortly
after the witch-king's death, that the blade was made by the men of
Westernesse specifically to fight against the Witch-King, who was their
chief enemy at the time. "No other blade, not though mightier hands had
wielded it, would have dealt a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh,
breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."

So one way to see it would be that the enchantment on Merry's blade broke
the Witch-King's defences, rendering him vulnerable to Eowyn's strike.

Post by Rump Ranger
Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
to do with it.

Magic blade attuned to undead.

Then why did the barrow-wight have them? Orcs and trolls feared them
and felt a degree of disgust when seeing them. Maybe a protection
from evil effect on the wielder?

They were in the barrow because they had been there since before the wraiths
inhabited it - it was part of an ancient fortress of Westernesse, which was
overrun in ancient times by the forces of the Witch-King, and still haunted
by some of his servants.

--
Mark.

Rump Ranger

2005-01-08 23:39:45 UTC

Post by David Alex Lamb
What about Eowen?

Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being
able to smite the Witch King.

Merry's blade did lay his defenses down low. There was a special
property to it (one poster said Ringwraith bane sword which is
logical).

That's correct, it's stated in chapter 6 of Return of the King, shortly
after the witch-king's death, that the blade was made by the men of
Westernesse specifically to fight against the Witch-King, who was their
chief enemy at the time. "No other blade, not though mightier hands had
wielded it, would have dealt a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh,
breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."
So one way to see it would be that the enchantment on Merry's blade broke
the Witch-King's defences, rendering him vulnerable to Eowyn's

strike.

Post by Rump Ranger
Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
to do with it.

Magic blade attuned to undead.

Then why did the barrow-wight have them? Orcs and trolls feared them
and felt a degree of disgust when seeing them. Maybe a protection
from evil effect on the wielder?

Ah, the way I understood is that the barrow wight laid the blades near
the hobbits.

Mark Blunden

2005-01-09 00:01:15 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Then why did the barrow-wight have them? Orcs and trolls feared
them and felt a degree of disgust when seeing them. Maybe a
protection from evil effect on the wielder?

They were in the barrow because they had been there since before the
wraiths inhabited it - it was part of an ancient fortress of
Westernesse, which was overrun in ancient times by the forces of the
Witch-King, and still haunted by some of his servants.

Ah, the way I understood is that the barrow wight laid the blades near
the hobbits.

I think that was a different blade or blades - after Tom Bombadil exorcised
the wights, he piled all the treasure in the open for passersby to take (as
I recall, this removed the curse on it), and selected a few of the very best
for the hobbits.

--
Mark.

Rump Ranger

2005-01-09 01:02:27 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Then why did the barrow-wight have them? Orcs and trolls feared
them and felt a degree of disgust when seeing them. Maybe a
protection from evil effect on the wielder?

They were in the barrow because they had been there since before the
wraiths inhabited it - it was part of an ancient fortress of
Westernesse, which was overrun in ancient times by the forces of the
Witch-King, and still haunted by some of his servants.

Ah, the way I understood is that the barrow wight laid the blades near
the hobbits.

You're probably right. In any case, he did something to the ground
afterwards which prohibited the barrow wight from returning. Probably
casted hallow.

Miracle

2005-01-09 00:01:02 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Merry's blade did lay his defenses down low. There was a special
property to it (one poster said Ringwraith bane sword which is
logical).

That's correct, it's stated in chapter 6 of Return of the King,
shortly after the witch-king's death, that the blade was made by the
men of Westernesse specifically to fight against the Witch-King, who
was their chief enemy at the time. "No other blade, not though
mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt a wound so bitter,
cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen
sinews to his will."
So one way to see it would be that the enchantment on Merry's blade
broke the Witch-King's defences, rendering him vulnerable to _Eowyn's_
strike.

To anyone's strike, I'd say, but it happened to be Eowyn...
Seems to me that "no man can kill me" was more of a prophecy than resistance
to man's blows.

--
I've never heard words candy and only in the same sentence before

Peter Knutsen

2005-01-08 13:43:49 UTC

On a general note, keep in mind that Middle-Earth was not a
"balanced" world. Even something as relatively basic as a
pure-blooded Dunedain (Aragorn), should probably be LA +2
and given loads of "racial" abilities. Same goes for Imrahil
(although he was a slightly different "race"). Faramir was
easily LA +1, and Denethor and Boromir too.

Heck, it might be worth it to create a special "Royal Blood
Dunedain" "race" for Aragorn, which is superior to that of
"ordinary" Dunedain, and make that LA +3 or even LA +4.

IIRC, players didn't get to pick their species in MERP, they
had to roll for it, a *moronic* kludge to avoid all the
players deciding to play Noldo Elves (or Dunedain).

Post by Rump Ranger
Well, in the books Tolkien doesn't get too much into specifics on
Legolas in combat other than to say he was one hell of a shot with his
bow. The movies had him doing some real acrobatic things and I
wouldn't be suprised if he was acrobatic in the book version. He also
would have some ranks in perform (song) because he was a great singer.

More like a "racial" bonus to the Perform (Song) skill,
because all the Elves of that type (Sindar, IIRC, although
possibly Sylvan) were like that.

[...]

Post by David Alex Lamb
I think you could go with rogue from the beginning, since Bilbo was

taken on

Post by David Alex Lamb
as a 'burglar'.

Disagree. Bilbo starts as a commoner. No real world skills (outside
of maybe cooking and smoking) and he was literally pushed out his door

Again, Hobbits have a huge "racial" bonus to Move Silently.
Easily +4, maybe even +6. On top of that, they're +2 to DEX.

And doesn't D&D3 also give a bonus to Move Silently, based
on size? Or is that bonus only to Hide?

That's the skill Bilbo was hired for (apart from the fact
that he was pretty much the only Hobbit with potential for
greatness - Gandalf didn't pick him at random): Stealth.
None of that working with locks or traps crap...

[...]

Post by David Alex Lamb
One question that occurs to me: does MERP give statistics for the

major

Post by David Alex Lamb
characters and, if so, how close did they come to what you've

suggested?

MERP would probably be a shitty ressource for characters. I
got the core rule book from the library, last year, and as I
expected, the magic system was much more like D&D than it
was like Tolkien, so I can't imagine how they could have
even *tried* to get the abilities of the characters *correct*.

Only the evil NPCs are statted up in Decipher's core LOTR
rule book (and even then, the eight ordinary ringwraiths
have identical stats, although it is pointed out that it's a
simplification), but a book was planned with stats of all
the good guys too. I just don't know whether Decipher
managed to get it finished and out, before they closed their
LOTR department.

Post by Rump Ranger
I never checked out MERP, mainly because I never liked the publisher's
rule intensive books and thousands of charts. I had a bad experience
looking at Rolemaster products. Too much detail.

There is no such thing as too much detail. Rather, too
little detail shifts the power balance in the wrong direction.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

Ian R Malcomson

2005-01-09 09:39:28 UTC

IIRC, players didn't get to pick their species in MERP, they had to
roll for it, a *moronic* kludge to avoid all the players deciding to
play Noldo Elves (or Dunedain).

You'd remember wrong. Players chose their race/culture. There is a
random table for generating race, in a similar way the DMG has such.

The only system restriction on elves is that they cannot be chosen
without placing a high stat in Pr.

Spell points? Developed spell lists? Skill-based spellcasting?
MERP/RM spellcasting doesn't really parallel D&D.

We don't see enough spellcasting in Tolkien to make a judgement as to
what form it might take, game-wise. I'd suggest a "knowledge-of-magic"
(i.e., skill-based system) rather than one lifted from Vance fits
better.

--
Ian R Malcomson
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"

Mart van de Wege

2005-01-08 20:36:45 UTC

"Rump Ranger" <***@fadmail.com> writes:

<snip>

Nah.

Bombadil is easy. Gandalf describes him as coming into the world at
its beginning, so he's another Outsider. Given his powers, I'd say
with levels in Ranger and Druid, probably Epic.

Mart

--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.

Ophidian

2005-01-08 04:08:48 UTC

Post by David Alex Lamb
Frodo is problematic. I don't know what to do with him either. He has to
have enough levels to be able to resist the Ring for a long while, but not so
many that he can't eventually fail.

Hm, high Wisdom, Iron Will, halfling save bonus, good Will save.
And stat the ring as becoming harder to resist the longer you have
or use it and the closer you come to Sauron or Mount Doom.
Frodo gained levels on the trip but not as fast at the ring
gained bonuses to its DC against Frodo.

Lorenz Lang

2005-01-07 16:45:02 UTC

The Ringwraiths are more like ghosts (rejuvenation) than wraiths in DnD.

In the books Gandalf is much more 'active' than in the movies.
It starts in 'The Hobbit' with tricking the trolls and casting fireballs
at the attacking worgs and orcs IIRC. Classic wizard/sorcerer stuff.
In LotR he was responsible for the flood (not Arwen, grr), washing away
the Wraiths. The hobbits and Aragorn see his flashy firemagic from the far
and found a whole hilltop scorched and blackened (IIRC again).

In Moria he magically sealed a portal, but the Balrog broke the spell
weakening Gandalf.

Post by Rump Ranger
His job was to
inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
(I'd say epic levels).

Definitely epic.

Post by Rump Ranger
Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels. Something
along the lines of a fighter 4 (for weapon specialization) and like
12-16 levels of ranger. Throw in the leadership feat and include a
sub-race for humans (Numenoreans) and I'd say you can model him well.

Some Aristocrat levels mixed in? Close to epic, 16 - 18 feels right.

Post by Rump Ranger
Gimli- another no brainer, fighter who specialized in axes with a level
near 20. He seems pretty epic from the books.
Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd no
doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery skills
and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and Gimli).
Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the beginning of
the Hobbit he doesn't know much),

Isn't he a kind of landlord? That would be aristocrat.

Post by Rump Ranger
a few levels of rogue (for his
adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he doesn't
cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above normal
hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him). Only
problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more expert
levels?

20th level Ringbearer PrC ;-)

Post by Rump Ranger
Samwise- starts off as commoner with gardening maxed out and gains a
few levels of fighter. He's capable of holding his own against Shelob
which has to count for something.
Merry and Pippen- both start as commoners and easily become fighters as
Merry becomes a Rider of the Rohirrim and Pippen becomes a knight of
Gondor.

IIRC Merry is aristocrat too, son of the Brandibuck(?).

Post by Rump Ranger
Saruman is simliar to Gandalf with a permanent charm effect on his
voice and enchanter levels. An outsider all the way.
Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari. Sounds
like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
shapes, and in making friends with beasts).
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters

Who is Imrahil?

Post by Rump Ranger
Faramir is a tough one to classify. Possible ranger (because of his
knowledge of the woods of Ithilien), fighter (his great skill), or a
paladin (because he was so good and people saw it despite the movies
making him out to be a prick).

Pal/Rng could be close. Lower level than Aragorn, mid to high 12 - 16?

Post by Rump Ranger
I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in any
case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?

Sauron: (Demi?)god Fighter/Wizard kind-of-lich with the Ring as
kind-of-phylactery???

Elrond: Fighter/Wizard
Galadriel: Sorcerer or Wizard
I see both at epic levels. Closely above Aragorn but below Gandalf.

LL

Rump Ranger

2005-01-07 17:39:21 UTC

The Ringwraiths are more like ghosts (rejuvenation) than wraiths in DnD.

That's what I thought except that they're more like shadows with a wail
of the banshee type of effect which stuns and puts fear into men rather
than kills them. I'd also say they had a pretty powerful fear aura
(people didn't need to see them to feel their presence).

Then

Post by Rump Ranger
again, we never really see Gandalf's true power.

In the books Gandalf is much more 'active' than in the movies.
It starts in 'The Hobbit' with tricking the trolls and casting

fireballs

Post by Lorenz Lang
at the attacking worgs and orcs IIRC. Classic wizard/sorcerer stuff.

Possible bardic abilities too.

Post by Lorenz Lang
In LotR he was responsible for the flood (not Arwen, grr), washing away
the Wraiths.

Actually, it was Elrond IIRC because Frodo called in a voice not his
own in Elvish for the river to protect him. Glorfindel came from
behind and pushed the Nazgul into the river. I'm almost positive
Gandalf didn't do it (and you're right, Arwen didn't do it either).

Post by Lorenz Lang
The hobbits and Aragorn see his flashy firemagic from the far
and found a whole hilltop scorched and blackened (IIRC again).

Agreed. It's possible it was pyrotechnics which can be emulated by
bardic levels. The Nazgul hated light and Gandalf did have one of the
Three Rings of power. The fire one (forgot the name).

Post by Lorenz Lang
In Moria he magically sealed a portal, but the Balrog broke the spell
weakening Gandalf.

Part of it also goes into Gandalf's staff. I believe it was a magical
item and he did have on of the Three Great Rings.

Post by Rump Ranger
His job was to
inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as

fighters

Post by Rump Ranger
and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
(I'd say epic levels).

Definitely epic.

Post by Rump Ranger
Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels.

Something

Post by Rump Ranger
along the lines of a fighter 4 (for weapon specialization) and like
12-16 levels of ranger. Throw in the leadership feat and include a
sub-race for humans (Numenoreans) and I'd say you can model him well.

Some Aristocrat levels mixed in? Close to epic, 16 - 18 feels right.

Why does he need Aristocrat? At least not until he takes the title of
King Essamar. He didn't really run a government until after the books
were done. Before hand he was a warrior and a ranger.

beginning of

Post by Rump Ranger
the Hobbit he doesn't know much),

Isn't he a kind of landlord? That would be aristocrat.

Disagree. Bilbo in the beginning of the Hobbit had only a few skills.
Mostly cooking and smoking (which was an art to the hobbits) he sounds
exactly like the NPC class of commoner at the beginning. Aristocrat is
possible.

Only

Post by Rump Ranger
problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more expert
levels?

20th level Ringbearer PrC ;-)

Yeah, but Frodo was kinda weak outside of his ability to go on the
journey. He did an epic thing while being an everyday kind of guy.

fighters as

Post by Rump Ranger
Merry becomes a Rider of the Rohirrim and Pippen becomes a knight of
Gondor.

IIRC Merry is aristocrat too, son of the Brandibuck(?).

Who is Imrahil?

The Prince who leads the men of Gondor when Denethor goes mad and
Faramir is in the Houses of the Healing. Aragorn refused to take his
Kingship until after the Ring is destroyed and he plays a pretty big
part in the battles of ROTK (in the books, not the movie).

Pal/Rng could be close. Lower level than Aragorn, mid to high 12 - 16?

Hard to tell but he could best any Rider of the Rohirrim in combat (at
least that's what Eowyn thinks when she sizes him up). The only two
people of Rohan I think who could take Faramir (or give him a run for
his money) would be Eomer or Theoden.

Post by Rump Ranger
I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in any
case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?

Sauron: (Demi?)god Fighter/Wizard kind-of-lich with the Ring as
kind-of-phylactery???

A lich works well but I'd say he's an outsider of some sort. Hard to
tell except that he's capable of controling weather at least 1000 miles
away and calling evil men to his call from all over the East and South.

Post by Lorenz Lang
Elrond: Fighter/Wizard
Galadriel: Sorcerer or Wizard
I see both at epic levels. Closely above Aragorn but below Gandalf.

Below Gandalf, but I'd think at least Elrond would wipe the floor with
Aragorn. Seriously. Galadriel doesn't strike me as the combat type.
I'd say she has some pretty strong charm spells at her disposal.
Elrond sounds like he has at least some druidic powers (able to control
the river which guards his land). Also remember that both had one of
the Three Great Rings which have to be major artifacts.

Auspex

2005-01-07 19:51:20 UTC

In LotR [Gandalf] was responsible for the flood
(not Arwen, grr), washing away
the Wraiths.

Actually, it was Elrond IIRC because Frodo called in a voice not his

Very correct. I've got no problem with the movie replacing Glorfindel with
Arwen - there were too many characters for a movie, anyway.

Post by Rump Ranger
own in Elvish for the river to protect him. Glorfindel came from
behind and pushed the Nazgul into the river. I'm almost positive
Gandalf didn't do it (and you're right, Arwen didn't do it either).

Post by Rump Ranger
Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels.

... Some Aristocrat levels mixed in? Close to epic, 16 - 18 feels right.

Post by Rump Ranger
Why does he need Aristocrat? At least not until he takes the title of
King Essamar. He didn't really run a government until after the books
were done. Before hand he was a warrior and a ranger.

He was still highly aware of his lineage, and Aristocrat seems right.

Post by Rump Ranger
Yeah, but Frodo was kinda weak outside of his ability to go on the
journey. He did an epic thing while being an everyday kind of guy.

That's just the nature of hobbits - you could say the same of Bilbo, Sam,
Merry and Pippin.

Post by Rump Ranger
Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari. Sounds
like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
shapes, and in making friends with beasts).

iirc, the Ents knew him, well, too. Which fits with Druid.

Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters

Boromir has to be at least a level higher than Faramir, as a fighter.

Post by Rump Ranger
A lich works well but I'd say he's an outsider of some sort. Hard to
tell except that he's capable of controling weather at least 1000 miles
away and calling evil men to his call from all over the East and South.

is that last even magical? It could as easily have been done by FedEx.

Post by Rump Ranger
Below Gandalf, but I'd think at least Elrond would wipe the floor with
Aragorn. Seriously.

He was probably the most important survivor of the previous battle to
overthrow Sauron. No wimp.

--
Auspex

Rump Ranger

2005-01-07 20:57:55 UTC

In LotR [Gandalf] was responsible for the flood
(not Arwen, grr), washing away
the Wraiths.

Actually, it was Elrond IIRC because Frodo called in a voice not his

Very correct. I've got no problem with the movie replacing

Glorfindel with

Post by Auspex
Arwen - there were too many characters for a movie, anyway.

My problem with Arwen in that scene (and in fact the whole scene after
Weathertop) is that Frodo seems to go AWOL when in the book he didn't.
I'd rather see a flaming Glorfindel charge the Nazgul while Frodo
stands against them on his steed than the whole forcing of Arwen down
our throats. PJ spent way too much time showing the whole
Aragorn/Arwen thing when she doesn't say anything until the end in the
books (and no PJ, Elrond wasn't an asshole IRT his daughter taking
Aragorn as a husband).

Post by Rump Ranger
Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels.

... Some Aristocrat levels mixed in? Close to epic, 16 - 18 feels right.

He was still highly aware of his lineage, and Aristocrat seems right.

Leadership feat and ranks in diplomacy and knowledge (nobility) works
better. There's no need to add a few levels of an NPC class which is
weaker than the adventuring ones when the skill system allows this.
Aragorn also didn't seek his lineage until he had little choice.

Post by Rump Ranger
Yeah, but Frodo was kinda weak outside of his ability to go on the
journey. He did an epic thing while being an everyday kind of guy.

That's just the nature of hobbits - you could say the same of Bilbo, Sam,
Merry and Pippin.

Which was Tolkien's point. Bilbo starts off in the Hobbit as a common
man who's swept up in huge events. Gandalf insisted he go despite the
protest of the dwarves. Gandalf also insisted that Merry and Pippen
join the Fellowship despite Elrond thinking that they wouldn't be good
for it. The thing is that outside of Frodo, all the other hobbits show
signs of entering what could be called D&D classes during their
adventures. Frodo doesn't fight nor do anything like sneaking but
instead bears the Ring. No easy task but he'd fail without Sam and
Gollum.

Post by Rump Ranger
Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari.

Sounds

Post by Rump Ranger
like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
shapes, and in making friends with beasts).

iirc, the Ents knew him, well, too. Which fits with Druid.

I don't recall if the Ents knew him or not, but the Beornings (from the
Hobbit) did. IIRC, Beorn told Gandalf that Rhadagast wasn't all that
bad as far as wizards go. Beorn sounds like a druid of sorts too (or a
werebear).

Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters

Boromir has to be at least a level higher than Faramir, as a fighter.

Possibly. But Faramir is either a custom ranger or a custom paladin.
He's good to a fault (everyone who meets him notices this) but he's
also got a lot of woodland skill.

is that last even magical? It could as easily have been done by FedEx.

IIRC, Gandalf explained how when the Shadow rebuilt Burad-Dur that all
the evil in the world was drawn to Mordor as if they were drawn- almost
like a vortex of evil effect which compels all evil to seek out Mordor.
Consider: Gollum left the Misty Mountains and was drawn to Mordor. He
went alone and was captured at the Morranon. There's no way Sauron
sent a messenger to draw Gollum to the gate (granted, the two were
linked because of the Ring, but it's evidence that Sauron has sway over
evil minds). Furthermore, during the last battle at the gate, Sauron's
Eye gave his forces strength and commanded by sheer will. When his Eye
shifted to Oruduin when Frodo claimed the Ring, the forces of Mordor
were severly weakened.

Post by Rump Ranger
Below Gandalf, but I'd think at least Elrond would wipe the floor with
Aragorn. Seriously.

He was probably the most important survivor of the previous battle to
overthrow Sauron. No wimp.

Exactly. His sons kicked butt in the book so I'd guess the father
could do so too.

drow

2005-01-07 21:30:56 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
The thing is that outside of Frodo, all the other hobbits show
signs of entering what could be called D&D classes during their
adventures. Frodo doesn't fight nor do anything like sneaking but
instead bears the Ring. No easy task but he'd fail without Sam and
Gollum.

obviously, frodo was taking levels in 'Ringbearer', a custom class
designed by the DM with incredibly strong Will saves and little else.
(enough to overcome the steadily increasing DCs of the ring's influence
as he drew closer to mordor, until he rolls a natural 1 at the cracks
of doom.) after destroying the ring, of course, the player realized
that his character was now utterly pointless and chose to retire him.

--
\^\ // ***@bin.sh (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.bin.sh/>
\ // - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
// \ X-Windows: The defacto sub-standard.
// \_\ -- Dude from DPAK

Rump Ranger

2005-01-07 22:09:02 UTC

Post by drow

obviously, frodo was taking levels in 'Ringbearer', a custom class
designed by the DM with incredibly strong Will saves and little else.
(enough to overcome the steadily increasing DCs of the ring's

influence

Post by drow
as he drew closer to mordor, until he rolls a natural 1 at the cracks
of doom.) after destroying the ring, of course, the player realized
that his character was now utterly pointless and chose to retire him.

Heh. I wonder what Gollum's level was. Oh wait, Gollum took orders
from Frodo, didn't he?

Mark Blunden

2005-01-08 21:41:16 UTC

Post by drow

obviously, frodo was taking levels in 'Ringbearer', a custom class
designed by the DM with incredibly strong Will saves and little else.
(enough to overcome the steadily increasing DCs of the ring's
influence as he drew closer to mordor, until he rolls a natural 1 at
the cracks of doom.) after destroying the ring, of course, the
player realized that his character was now utterly pointless and
chose to retire him.

Heh. I wonder what Gollum's level was. Oh wait, Gollum took orders
from Frodo, didn't he?

Gollum was an ex-Ringbearer - he'd lost most of the cool class powers, and
could only get them back by getting hold of the Ring.

--
Mark.

Kevin Lowe

2005-01-08 14:29:43 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters

Boromir has to be at least a level higher than Faramir, as a fighter.

Actually, Faramir said he was as good as Boromir if not better. Plus he
slugged it out with the Witch-King of Angmar and lived to brag about it.

I still say the hobbits should all have rogue levels rather than NPC
rubbish, since they were all mushroom-thieving tearaways and crack
rock-throwers in their youth.

Plus I say that Aragorn gets too little credit. He had to be actively
stopped from taking a crack at the Balrog, and he never showed any signs
of stupidity or ignorance. I think he knew he and Gandalf stood a good
chance of taking it, and if he hadn't been responsible for shepherding
Frodo onward he would have taken his shot. As I believe I have said
earlier, if he wasn't the equal of the great Balrog-whuppin' human
heroes of the First Age he certainly thought he was.

Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.

Hong Ooi

2005-01-08 13:39:24 UTC

Post by Kevin Lowe
I still say the hobbits should all have rogue levels rather than NPC
rubbish, since they were all mushroom-thieving tearaways and crack
rock-throwers in their youth.

What kind of idiot throws crack rocks?

I bet they inject their weed too, or something.

--
Hong Ooi | "COUNTERSRTIKE IS AN REAL-TIME
***@zipworld.com.au | STRATEGY GAME!!!"
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | -- RR
Sydney, Australia |

Kelly Pedersen

2005-01-08 20:58:04 UTC

Kevin Lowe wrote:

[snip]

Post by Kevin Lowe
Plus I say that Aragorn gets too little credit. He had to be actively
stopped from taking a crack at the Balrog, and he never showed any signs
of stupidity or ignorance.

OTOH, Gandalf, presumably the person who knew best what a Balrog was
capable of (they were distant cousins, sorta), said "This is a foe
beyond any of you." I have to say I trust Gandalf over Aragorn, on this one.

Post by Kevin Lowe
I think he knew he and Gandalf stood a good
chance of taking it, and if he hadn't been responsible for shepherding
Frodo onward he would have taken his shot. As I believe I have said
earlier, if he wasn't the equal of the great Balrog-whuppin' human
heroes of the First Age he certainly thought he was.

Unfortunately, there's no record (at least, outside the History of
Middle Earth stuff, which I haven't read extensively), of _any_ human
taking out a Balrog. Even Hurin, refered to as "the greatest warrior of
mortal men", doesn't seem to have taken out any Balrogs. The only Balrog
slayings I can remember are Gandalf's, and Ecthelion and Glorfindel, as
part of the sacking of Gondolin, during the First Age. Admittedly,
Ecthelion _did_ kill Gothmog, the Lord of Balrogs, but he still died
himself. In fact, _all_ specific recorded Balrog slayings seem to have
been mutual kills. Even Gandalf, who just came back.

Rump Ranger

2005-01-08 22:12:02 UTC

Post by Kelly Pedersen
[snip]

Post by Kevin Lowe
Plus I say that Aragorn gets too little credit. He had to be actively
stopped from taking a crack at the Balrog, and he never showed any signs
of stupidity or ignorance.

Actually, Legolas was the one to first recognize it. Granted, Gandalf
may have known what it was, but I think only Gandalf alone could have
stood up against it. He also didn't want the hobbits to die so he
pushed Aragorn away. One gets the impression he knew what would
happen.

Post by Kelly Pedersen

Post by Kevin Lowe
I think he knew he and Gandalf stood a good
chance of taking it, and if he hadn't been responsible for

shepherding

Post by Kelly Pedersen

Post by Kevin Lowe
Frodo onward he would have taken his shot. As I believe I have said
earlier, if he wasn't the equal of the great Balrog-whuppin' human
heroes of the First Age he certainly thought he was.

Hence, the inspiration for the Balor's ability to explode when it's
slain. You may kill it, but it will cause grevious harm to you in it's
death throes.

Rupert Boleyn

2005-01-08 23:32:47 UTC

Post by Kevin Lowe
Plus I say that Aragorn gets too little credit. He had to be actively
stopped from taking a crack at the Balrog, and he never showed any signs
of stupidity or ignorance. I think he knew he and Gandalf stood a good
chance of taking it, and if he hadn't been responsible for shepherding
Frodo onward he would have taken his shot. As I believe I have said
earlier, if he wasn't the equal of the great Balrog-whuppin' human
heroes of the First Age he certainly thought he was.

Didn't he spend time in Gondor as a general, etc., under a false name
back in his younger years?

--
Rupert Boleyn <***@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

Peter Knutsen

2005-01-09 01:41:35 UTC

Post by Rupert Boleyn
Didn't he spend time in Gondor as a general, etc., under a false name
back in his younger years?

Aragorn did spend time in Gondor, under a false name, but I
don't think he was an actal general. Probably a high-ranking
officer, though, depending on how meritocratic the Gondorian
Armed Forces were.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

Taneli Pirinen

2005-01-07 23:40:53 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought out stats as

Post by Rump Ranger
major characters of Middle-Earth? As a purely mental experiment of
course. What would you say would be the stats of, say Sauron or

the

Post by Rump Ranger
Ringwraiths?

The Ringwraiths are more like ghosts (rejuvenation) than wraiths in

DnD.
That's what I thought except that they're more like shadows with a wail
of the banshee type of effect which stuns and puts fear into men rather
than kills them. I'd also say they had a pretty powerful fear aura
(people didn't need to see them to feel their presence).

Post by Rump Ranger
IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and

several

Post by Rump Ranger
levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using

D&D

Post by Rump Ranger
classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he

can

Post by Rump Ranger
heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster).

Then

Post by Rump Ranger
again, we never really see Gandalf's true power.

In the books Gandalf is much more 'active' than in the movies.
It starts in 'The Hobbit' with tricking the trolls and casting

fireballs

Post by Lorenz Lang
at the attacking worgs and orcs IIRC. Classic wizard/sorcerer stuff.

Possible bardic abilities too.

Post by Lorenz Lang
In LotR he was responsible for the flood (not Arwen, grr), washing

away

Post by Lorenz Lang
the Wraiths.

It was Elrond, who made the flood, but the white horse forms in the
flood were of Gandalfs doing.

Post by Lorenz Lang
The hobbits and Aragorn see his flashy firemagic from the far
and found a whole hilltop scorched and blackened (IIRC again).

Agreed. It's possible it was pyrotechnics which can be emulated by
bardic levels. The Nazgul hated light and Gandalf did have one of the
Three Rings of power. The fire one (forgot the name).

Narya.

Post by Lorenz Lang
In Moria he magically sealed a portal, but the Balrog broke the spell
weakening Gandalf.

Part of it also goes into Gandalf's staff. I believe it was a magical
item and he did have on of the Three Great Rings.

The staff is something like the ring for the wizards. When Saruman lost
his staff, he also lost all his powers (except the sweet tongue).

Post by Rump Ranger
His job was to
inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD

would be

Post by Rump Ranger
used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as

fighters

Post by Rump Ranger
and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is

beyond me

Post by Rump Ranger
(I'd say epic levels).

Definitely epic.

Post by Rump Ranger
Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels.

Something

well.

Post by Lorenz Lang
Some Aristocrat levels mixed in? Close to epic, 16 - 18 feels right.

Why does he need Aristocrat? At least not until he takes the title of
King Essamar. He didn't really run a government until after the books
were done. Before hand he was a warrior and a ranger.

Essamar?

Elessar he chose as his coronation name, and Telcontar (or strider) as
the name for his kin.

Post by Rump Ranger
Gimli- another no brainer, fighter who specialized in axes with a

level

Post by Rump Ranger
near 20. He seems pretty epic from the books.
Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd

Post by Rump Ranger
doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery

skills

Post by Rump Ranger
and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and

Gimli).

Post by Rump Ranger
Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the

beginning of

Post by Rump Ranger
the Hobbit he doesn't know much),

Isn't he a kind of landlord? That would be aristocrat.

Bilbo was an heir of the family of Baggins, a very well off family in
the Hobbiton and all of Shire. Aristocrat most likely.

Also, hobbits are very quiet by their nature, that is their magic. So a
level or two of Rouge is not at all out of question (just pick right
skills and take something else for inappropriate class features).

Post by Rump Ranger
a few levels of rogue (for his
adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he

doesn't

Post by Rump Ranger
cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above

normal

Post by Rump Ranger
hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him).

Only

Post by Rump Ranger
problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more

expert

Post by Rump Ranger
levels?

20th level Ringbearer PrC ;-)

Yeah, but Frodo was kinda weak outside of his ability to go on the
journey. He did an epic thing while being an everyday kind of guy.

Frodo was Bilbo's heir, and so he most likely had levels in Aristocrat
(and maybe in Rouge... as the hobbits' magic is their quietness, when
they feel so).

Post by Rump Ranger
Samwise- starts off as commoner with gardening maxed out and gains

Post by Rump Ranger
few levels of fighter. He's capable of holding his own against

Shelob

Post by Rump Ranger
which has to count for something.
Merry and Pippen- both start as commoners and easily become

fighters as

Post by Rump Ranger
Merry becomes a Rider of the Rohirrim and Pippen becomes a knight

Post by Rump Ranger
Gondor.

IIRC Merry is aristocrat too, son of the Brandibuck(?).

Meriadoc Branbybuck and Peregrin Took, both young members of great
families of the Hobbits.

Who is Imrahil?

Movie sucks in many regards.

Post by Rump Ranger
Faramir is a tough one to classify. Possible ranger (because of

his

Post by Rump Ranger
knowledge of the woods of Ithilien), fighter (his great skill), or

Post by Rump Ranger
paladin (because he was so good and people saw it despite the

movies

Post by Rump Ranger
making him out to be a prick).

Pal/Rng could be close. Lower level than Aragorn, mid to high 12 -

16?
Hard to tell but he could best any Rider of the Rohirrim in combat (at
least that's what Eowyn thinks when she sizes him up). The only two
people of Rohan I think who could take Faramir (or give him a run for
his money) would be Eomer or Theoden.

Post by Rump Ranger
I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in

any

Post by Rump Ranger
case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?

Sauron: (Demi?)god Fighter/Wizard kind-of-lich with the Ring as
kind-of-phylactery???

Post by Lorenz Lang
Elrond: Fighter/Wizard
Galadriel: Sorcerer or Wizard
I see both at epic levels. Closely above Aragorn but below Gandalf.

Both are ancient beyond recockning (well, not really, Tolkien tells
somewhere when they were born), but on the Third Age of the Light, they
were ancient beyond any imagination. Elrond was in the battles in the
end of the second age of light, and he old by then. Galadriel had seen
the lights in the west, and had born in the first age, if I'm not
totally mistaken.

But one must also remember, that the spirits that came to middle-earth
as the five wizards were also ancient beyond recockning. They just were
not allowed to use much of their strength, as it would have destroyed
the lands that Eru and the valar so love...

--
TP

David Alex Lamb

2005-01-08 00:16:08 UTC

Post by Taneli Pirinen
Both are ancient beyond recockning (well, not really, Tolkien tells
somewhere when they were born), but on the Third Age of the Light, they
were ancient beyond any imagination. Elrond was in the battles in the
end of the second age of light, and he old by then. Galadriel had seen
the lights in the west, and had born in the first age, if I'm not
totally mistaken.

IIRC when talking to Frodo she remembers something from the first age, about
6000 years previously, having to do with the battle against Morgoth. That's a
whole book ahead of where I'm reading to Ian, so I haven't seen it recently
enough for certainty.

--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

Peter Knutsen

2005-01-08 14:12:32 UTC

Post by David Alex Lamb
IIRC when talking to Frodo she remembers something from the first age, about
6000 years previously, having to do with the battle against Morgoth. That's a
whole book ahead of where I'm reading to Ian, so I haven't seen it recently
enough for certainty.

That was Elrond, telling about the battle fought by The Last
Alliance (of Men and Elves) against Sauron, which ended with
Saurons "death" when Isildur cut off his ring-finger with
the stump of Narsil. Elrond relays this tale at the Council,
and Frodo then expresses astonishment that Elrond was
actually there, since it was so long ago (which was a bit
clumsy of Tolkien, since Frodo already *knew* that Elves
were immortal, but then again LOTR is the first fantasy
novel ever, according to most definitions, so Tolkien needed
to invent a lot of techniques, making it no wonder that he
didn't get everything right).

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

Rump Ranger

2005-01-08 22:03:56 UTC

Post by David Alex Lamb
IIRC when talking to Frodo she remembers something from the first age, about
6000 years previously, having to do with the battle against

Morgoth. That's a

Post by David Alex Lamb
whole book ahead of where I'm reading to Ian, so I haven't seen it recently
enough for certainty.

Er, how is that clumsy when it was Frodo's astonishment? He may have
realized the Elves were immortal but never imagined that Elrond was
actually there. Or maybe the reality of it finally dawned on him: that
he was in the presence of the true movers and shakers of ME.

Rupert Boleyn

2005-01-08 23:37:06 UTC

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:12:32 +0100, Peter Knutsen

Post by Peter Knutsen
That was Elrond, telling about the battle fought by The Last
Alliance (of Men and Elves) against Sauron, which ended with
Saurons "death" when Isildur cut off his ring-finger with
the stump of Narsil. Elrond relays this tale at the Council,
and Frodo then expresses astonishment that Elrond was
actually there, since it was so long ago (which was a bit
clumsy of Tolkien, since Frodo already *knew* that Elves
were immortal, but then again LOTR is the first fantasy
novel ever, according to most definitions, so Tolkien needed
to invent a lot of techniques, making it no wonder that he
didn't get everything right).

Perhaps Frodo, while intellectually aware that elves were immortal,
hadn't felt it at a gut level until then. It's an illustration of the
difference between knowing that 'elves are immortal and never grow
old', and 'elves are immortal, and saw the elder days in person'.

--
Rupert Boleyn <***@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

Peter Knutsen

2005-01-09 01:42:27 UTC

Post by Rupert Boleyn
Perhaps Frodo, while intellectually aware that elves were immortal,
hadn't felt it at a gut level until then. It's an illustration of the
difference between knowing that 'elves are immortal and never grow
old', and 'elves are immortal, and saw the elder days in person'.

Sure, but Frodo overdid it. Tolkien also overdid Elrond's
emphasis on "I was there".

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

Rupert Boleyn

2005-01-09 02:13:13 UTC

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 02:42:27 +0100, Peter Knutsen

Sure, but Frodo overdid it. Tolkien also overdid Elrond's
emphasis on "I was there".

Elrond was talking to people who weren't there, and some of them
(Boromir, etc.) were likely to not realise it (emotionally, if not
intellectually). Or maybe Elrond just liked reminding people that he
knew what he was talking about 'hell, I was THERE'. Not an uncommon
trait.

--
Rupert Boleyn <***@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

Peter Knutsen

2005-01-08 14:09:35 UTC

Taneli Pirinen wrote:
[Elrond & Galadriel]

Post by Taneli Pirinen
Both are ancient beyond recockning (well, not really, Tolkien tells

Elrond wasn't ancient. He was only around 5500 years old!

Post by Taneli Pirinen
somewhere when they were born), but on the Third Age of the Light, they
were ancient beyond any imagination. Elrond was in the battles in the
end of the second age of light, and he old by then. Galadriel had seen
the lights in the west, and had born in the first age, if I'm not
totally mistaken.

Older, I think. There are two series of ages. The current
series of Ages is the Ages of the Sun, where LOTR takes
place in the Third Age of the Sun, and the whole Numenor
thing takes place in the Second Age of the Sun.

But before the Ages of the Sun there were Ages of the Stars,
and IIRC Galadriel was born back then. So she's easily twice
as old as Elrond. My random guess is that she's something
like 15'000 years old, maybe 20'000.

One should be mindful, though. That Elrond has Maia blood in
his veins (Aragorn has too, and Denethor, Faramir, and
Boromir - not 100% sure about Imrahil). Galadriel hasn't.
That Maia blood (which is not even particularly dilluted in
Elrond - Melian was only something like half a dozen
generations ago) could balance out Galadriel having "seen
the Light(tm)".

Post by Taneli Pirinen
But one must also remember, that the spirits that came to middle-earth
as the five wizards were also ancient beyond recockning. They just were
not allowed to use much of their strength, as it would have destroyed
the lands that Eru and the valar so love...

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

Rupert Boleyn

2005-01-08 23:38:00 UTC

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:09:35 +0100, Peter Knutsen

Post by Peter Knutsen
But before the Ages of the Sun there were Ages of the Stars,
and IIRC Galadriel was born back then. So she's easily twice
as old as Elrond. My random guess is that she's something
like 15'000 years old, maybe 20'000.

I don't think time meant the same back then, somehow.

--
Rupert Boleyn <***@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

Miracle

2005-01-09 00:53:41 UTC

I don't think its even possible to guess like that. Year as 365 days, exsist
only in Ages of the Sun.

Post by Peter Knutsen
One should be mindful, though. That Elrond has Maia blood in
his veins

But also humans...

Post by Peter Knutsen
(Aragorn has too, and Denethor, Faramir, and
Boromir - not 100% sure about Imrahil).

Are you sure about Denethor and sons?

Post by Peter Knutsen
Galadriel hasn't.
That Maia blood (which is not even particularly dilluted in
Elrond - Melian was only something like half a dozen
generations ago) could balance out Galadriel having "seen
the Light(tm)".

Elrond is Melians grandgrandgrandson. :-)

--
I've never heard words candy and only in the same sentence before

Peter Knutsen

2005-01-09 01:48:17 UTC

I don't think its even possible to guess like that. Year as 365 days, exsist
only in Ages of the Sun.

So are you saying that each of the Ages of the Stars lasted
only a few dozen years?

(Tolkien says that he "thinks" that the Ages have quickened,
that is grown shorter in length, but maybe he was only
talking about the Ages of the Sun?)

Post by Peter Knutsen
One should be mindful, though. That Elrond has Maia blood in
his veins

But also humans...

Are you saying that Elrond has human blood in his veins
(which is correct) or that humans also have Maia blood in
their veins (which is correctly only for a very small
percentage of "humans")?

Post by Peter Knutsen
(Aragorn has too, and Denethor, Faramir, and
Boromir - not 100% sure about Imrahil).

Are you sure about Denethor and sons?

Yes, they're descendants from Numenoreans, and as Steward
Denethor must have had a damn impressive pedigree. Which
means that he can almost certainly trace his blood back to
Elros.

Elrond is Melians grandgrandgrandson. :-)

Well, let's see... Melian married Elwe Singollo (a.k.a. Elu
Thingol), and they got Lutien Tinuviel (1/2 Elf, 1/2 Maia).
Luthen married Beren, and they got some kid (who was 1/4
Elf, 1/4 Maia and 1/2 Human), whose name I've forgotten.

I've forgotten the details of the rest too, but there was
Earendil at one stage, and then it culminated in Elrond &
Elros, one of whom chose the Elven life and another a mortal
Life.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

Kelly Pedersen

2005-01-09 08:30:59 UTC

[snip]

Post by Miracle
Elrond is Melians grandgrandgrandson. :-)

Dior. He married Nimloth, and they had Elwing, plus two sons, Elured and
Elurin. Elwing married Earendil, who was himself the son of a human
(Tuor) and an elf (Idril Celebrindal). Elrond and Elros were their
children. Therefore, Melian was Elrond's great great grandmother.

[snip]

Miracle

2005-01-09 09:57:00 UTC

Post by Miracle
I don't think its even possible to guess like that. Year as 365
days, exsist only in Ages of the Sun.

So are you saying that each of the Ages of the Stars lasted
only a few dozen years?

I'm saying that I (we) don't know how long had Ages of the Stars lasted. You
can't measure it in _years_ because, its something that depends on Sun.

Post by Peter Knutsen
One should be mindful, though. That Elrond has Maia blood in
his veins

But also humans...

Are you saying that Elrond has human blood in his veins

yes>>> (Aragorn has too, and Denethor, Faramir, and

Post by Peter Knutsen
Boromir - not 100% sure about Imrahil).

Are you sure about Denethor and sons?

Yes, they're descendants from Numenoreans,

So? Only Kings of Numenor had Maia blood (Elros' descendants), not all of
them (IIRC).

Post by Peter Knutsen
and as Steward
Denethor must have had a damn impressive pedigree. Which
means that he can almost certainly trace his blood back to
Elros.

I'd say it's just a gues, probably wrong one. I might be wrong however...

Post by Miracle
Elrond is Melians grandgrandgrandson. :-)

Well, let's see... Melian married Elwe Singollo (a.k.a. Elu
Thingol), and they got Lutien Tinuviel (1/2 Elf, 1/2 Maia).
Luthen married Beren, and they got some kid (who was 1/4
Elf, 1/4 Maia and 1/2 Human), whose name I've forgotten.
I've forgotten the details of the rest too, but there was
Earendil at one stage, and then it culminated in Elrond &
Elros, one of whom chose the Elven life and another a mortal
Life.

yep

--
I've never heard words candy and only in the same sentence before

Rump Ranger

2005-01-08 20:50:41 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought out stats as

Post by Rump Ranger
major characters of Middle-Earth? As a purely mental experiment of
course. What would you say would be the stats of, say Sauron or

the

Post by Rump Ranger
Ringwraiths?

The Ringwraiths are more like ghosts (rejuvenation) than wraiths in

Post by Rump Ranger
IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and

several

Post by Rump Ranger
levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using

D&D

Post by Rump Ranger
classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he

can

Post by Rump Ranger
heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster).

Then

Post by Rump Ranger
again, we never really see Gandalf's true power.

In the books Gandalf is much more 'active' than in the movies.
It starts in 'The Hobbit' with tricking the trolls and casting

fireballs

Post by Lorenz Lang
at the attacking worgs and orcs IIRC. Classic wizard/sorcerer stuff.

Possible bardic abilities too.

Post by Lorenz Lang
In LotR he was responsible for the flood (not Arwen, grr), washing

away

Post by Lorenz Lang
the Wraiths.

It was Elrond, who made the flood, but the white horse forms in the
flood were of Gandalfs doing.

Ah. Kind of like an illusion effect I'd imagine with the sheer power
of the water sweeping the Nazgul away.

Post by Lorenz Lang
The hobbits and Aragorn see his flashy firemagic from the far
and found a whole hilltop scorched and blackened (IIRC again).

Agreed. It's possible it was pyrotechnics which can be emulated by
bardic levels. The Nazgul hated light and Gandalf did have one of the
Three Rings of power. The fire one (forgot the name).

Narya.

That's it.

Post by Lorenz Lang
In Moria he magically sealed a portal, but the Balrog broke the spell
weakening Gandalf.

Part of it also goes into Gandalf's staff. I believe it was a magical
item and he did have on of the Three Great Rings.

The staff is something like the ring for the wizards. When Saruman lost
his staff, he also lost all his powers (except the sweet tongue).

Yup. Which is why I think PJ made a major mistake in ROTK EE by first
showing Saruman's staff being broken and losing power but Gandalf
having his staff broken by the Witch King and still retaining power.
In the book, Gandalf of course never had his staff broken. One can
argue the staff serves as a focus and that Saruman had lost his power
before the staff was broken: remember, he was ordered to turn around by
Gandalf which shocked everyone.

Post by Rump Ranger
His job was to
inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD

would be

Post by Rump Ranger
used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as

fighters

Post by Rump Ranger
and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is

beyond me

Post by Rump Ranger
(I'd say epic levels).

Definitely epic.

Post by Rump Ranger
Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels.

Something

well.

Post by Lorenz Lang
Some Aristocrat levels mixed in? Close to epic, 16 - 18 feels right.

Why does he need Aristocrat? At least not until he takes the title of
King Essamar. He didn't really run a government until after the books
were done. Before hand he was a warrior and a ranger.

Essamar?
Elessar he chose as his coronation name, and Telcontar (or strider) as
the name for his kin.

You know what I meant. Some of those names get a little confusing
without breaking the books out (and besides, Tolkien had multiple names
for the same thing due to various languages- Elvish, Dwarven, Common,
Rohan).

Post by Rump Ranger
Gimli- another no brainer, fighter who specialized in axes with a

level

Post by Rump Ranger
near 20. He seems pretty epic from the books.
Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd

Post by Rump Ranger
doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery

skills

Post by Rump Ranger
and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and

Gimli).

Post by Rump Ranger
Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the

beginning of

Post by Rump Ranger
the Hobbit he doesn't know much),

Isn't he a kind of landlord? That would be aristocrat.

Disagree. Bilbo in the beginning of the Hobbit had only a few skills.
Mostly cooking and smoking (which was an art to the hobbits) he sounds
exactly like the NPC class of commoner at the beginning.

Aristocrat is

Post by Rump Ranger
possible.

Bilbo was an heir of the family of Baggins, a very well off family in
the Hobbiton and all of Shire. Aristocrat most likely.

The reason why I don't think he needs Aristocrat is that the Shire
never really had a government to speak of. The Mayor was more or less
a symbolic position where he oversaw feasts and parties.

Post by Taneli Pirinen
Also, hobbits are very quiet by their nature, that is their magic. So a
level or two of Rouge is not at all out of question (just pick right
skills and take something else for inappropriate class features).

Their quiet nature can be modeled by adding points to dex, taking away
from strength and maybe giving them an extra bonus on hide and move
silently. The average human still wouldn't be able to detect them
mostly. From what I gather, their ability to hide was more a natural
trait of hobbits than learned.

Post by Rump Ranger
a few levels of rogue (for his
adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he

doesn't

Post by Rump Ranger
cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above

normal

Post by Rump Ranger
hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him).

Only

Post by Rump Ranger
problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He

doesn't

Post by Rump Ranger
seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more

expert

Post by Rump Ranger
levels?

20th level Ringbearer PrC ;-)

Yeah, but Frodo was kinda weak outside of his ability to go on the
journey. He did an epic thing while being an everyday kind of guy.

Frodo was Bilbo's heir, and so he most likely had levels in

Aristocrat

Post by Taneli Pirinen
(and maybe in Rouge... as the hobbits' magic is their quietness, when
they feel so).

I'd go expert because Frodo knew a lot about Bilbo's travels and
probably learned a thing or two on how to survive by hanging out with
him.

Post by Rump Ranger
Samwise- starts off as commoner with gardening maxed out and gains

Post by Rump Ranger
few levels of fighter. He's capable of holding his own against

Shelob

Post by Rump Ranger
which has to count for something.
Merry and Pippen- both start as commoners and easily become

fighters as

Post by Rump Ranger
Merry becomes a Rider of the Rohirrim and Pippen becomes a knight

Post by Rump Ranger
Gondor.

IIRC Merry is aristocrat too, son of the Brandibuck(?).

Meriadoc Branbybuck and Peregrin Took, both young members of great
families of the Hobbits.

Both of which haven't come of age by the time the first book starts.
They're the youngsters, still in their "tweens" when they leave the
Shire, IIRC.

Sounds

Post by Rump Ranger
like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
shapes, and in making friends with beasts).
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters

Who is Imrahil?

Movie sucks in many regards.

They're pretty good in most parts if one doesn't forget that this is
Peter Jackson's LOTR and not really Tolkien's. Imrahil or Beregrond's
absence can be forgiven (because the movie would be too long) but PJ
makes some rather pointless changes to characters which would have
angered Tolkien had he been alive.

Post by Rump Ranger
Faramir is a tough one to classify. Possible ranger (because of

his

Post by Rump Ranger
knowledge of the woods of Ithilien), fighter (his great skill), or

Post by Rump Ranger
paladin (because he was so good and people saw it despite the

movies

Post by Rump Ranger
making him out to be a prick).

Pal/Rng could be close. Lower level than Aragorn, mid to high 12 -

Post by Rump Ranger
I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in

any

Post by Rump Ranger
case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?

Sauron: (Demi?)god Fighter/Wizard kind-of-lich with the Ring as
kind-of-phylactery???

Post by Lorenz Lang
Elrond: Fighter/Wizard
Galadriel: Sorcerer or Wizard
I see both at epic levels. Closely above Aragorn but below Gandalf.

Exactly. Did Galadriel do a lot of fighting during that time?

Post by Taneli Pirinen
But one must also remember, that the spirits that came to

middle-earth

Post by Taneli Pirinen
as the five wizards were also ancient beyond recockning. They just were
not allowed to use much of their strength, as it would have destroyed
the lands that Eru and the valar so love...

Which is why Istari fit outsider so well. They're certainly not human
(I believe Galadriel mentions that she summoned the White Council and
wanted Gandalf to lead it but Saruman was chosen).

Kevin Lowe

2005-01-09 00:18:25 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Exactly. Did Galadriel do a lot of fighting during that time?

Galadriel is as old as they get and was definitely one of the hard core.

She was in on the first, quixotic voyage of the elves to whup Morgoth,
and the ensuing Kinslaying. In other words she's been hitting evil with
a stick at least as long as any being that exists, and she hit some good
with a stick too when it got in her way.

When she said she could take the ring and rule Middle-Earth, she meant
it. When she said that she wouldn't be all sweetness and light if she
did, she meant that too.

Not that you would know *any* of this from the core LotR. :) Tolkien's
like that.

Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.

Rump Ranger

2005-01-08 23:43:49 UTC

Post by Kevin Lowe

Post by Rump Ranger
Exactly. Did Galadriel do a lot of fighting during that time?

Galadriel is as old as they get and was definitely one of the hard core.
She was in on the first, quixotic voyage of the elves to whup

Morgoth,

Post by Kevin Lowe
and the ensuing Kinslaying. In other words she's been hitting evil with
a stick at least as long as any being that exists, and she hit some good
with a stick too when it got in her way.

Never read any other Tolkien work outside of the Hobbit/LOTR.

Post by Kevin Lowe
When she said she could take the ring and rule Middle-Earth, she meant
it. When she said that she wouldn't be all sweetness and light if she
did, she meant that too.

I don't doubt she's one of the few who could master the Ring. From her
comments though I imagine she was saying something simliar to Gandalf:
that she'd take the Ring and desire to do good but would be overwhelmed
by it and become evil in the end.

Post by Kevin Lowe
Not that you would know *any* of this from the core LotR. :)

Tolkien's

Post by Kevin Lowe
like that.

His ME is far too detailed to fit in four books. Which is what makes
it so interesting, because even without all the other books, the
history presented gives one the idea that ME is a real living world.

Rupert Boleyn

2005-01-09 02:19:09 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Never read any other Tolkien work outside of the Hobbit/LOTR.

IMO if you intended doing any world-design or running a game in Middle
Earth the Silmarillion is a must. It's where the world design stuff is
that wasn't crammed into the LotR's appendices is. Besides, the
original Elves vs Morgoth period has real potential for high-powered
heroic adventuring.

Post by Rump Ranger
I don't doubt she's one of the few who could master the Ring. From her
that she'd take the Ring and desire to do good but would be overwhelmed
by it and become evil in the end.

I think she'd be overcome by her own dark side as much as by the ring,
though it's probably one and the same thing. The elves wished for
stasis, and used their rings to work to that end. How much stronger
would that effect bewith the greatest remaining elf-lord wielding the
One Ring?

--
Rupert Boleyn <***@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

Rump Ranger

2005-01-09 06:07:53 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Never read any other Tolkien work outside of the Hobbit/LOTR.

Been meaning to get around to it but it reads sorta like the Bible (or
an encyclopedia) and I always got other books to read (I buy books and
then read them a year or so later because I want to read so many). I
can only get a few pages into before I get bored (I didn't bother
reading some of the Appendices either. Linguistics of Tolkien Elvish
doesn't interest me too much).

Post by Rump Ranger
I don't doubt she's one of the few who could master the Ring. From her
that she'd take the Ring and desire to do good but would be

overwhelmed

Post by Rump Ranger
by it and become evil in the end.

Who knows? The thing is, Tolkien did hint that the capacity for evil
was in all his characters. The Ring would amplify it.

Rupert Boleyn

2005-01-09 08:43:02 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Been meaning to get around to it but it reads sorta like the Bible (or
an encyclopedia) and I always got other books to read (I buy books and
then read them a year or so later because I want to read so many). I
can only get a few pages into before I get bored (I didn't bother
reading some of the Appendices either. Linguistics of Tolkien Elvish
doesn't interest me too much).

Well, just read the parts dealing with the history/myth of Middle
Earth. To me it reads like a good narrative history, or book of tales.

Post by Rump Ranger
Who knows? The thing is, Tolkien did hint that the capacity for evil
was in all his characters. The Ring would amplify it.

That's my point, pretty much. And of course all his characters had the
capacity for evil - they were supposed to be 'real', and real people
are never pure good or pure evil.

--
Rupert Boleyn <***@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

Aaron F. Bourque

2005-01-09 01:27:46 UTC

From: "Rump Ranger" ***@fadmail.com

<Bilbo>

Post by Rump Ranger
The reason why I don't think he needs Aristocrat is that the
Shire never really had a government to speak of.

They had a post office. They had sheriffs.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; they had more
government than some countries today . . .

--
God saves and man sins
But the tragedy comes when
He does both of them
Do not meddle in the affairs of fanboys, for they are obvious and quick to
anger.

Rump Ranger

2005-01-09 02:04:36 UTC

Post by Aaron F. Bourque
<Bilbo>

Post by Rump Ranger
The reason why I don't think he needs Aristocrat is that the
Shire never really had a government to speak of.

They had a post office. They had sheriffs.

The Sheriffs didn't really do all that much outside of getting rid of
creatures which trespassed into the Shire or help the lost. Shirefolk
pretty much ran the Shire as they saw fit where families did their own
thing and everyone helped each other.

Post by Aaron F. Bourque
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; they had more
government than some countries today . . .

You say that like it's a bad thing. We could live a lot better lives
if we didn't have governments demanding to lord over us.

Miracle

2005-01-09 01:38:40 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Did Galadriel do a lot of fighting during that time?

Yes! Battles described in LOTR are not the only ones that took place at that
time. If you've seen ROTK EE you might remember Legolas saying to Gimli that
his kniship is probably fighting Saurons forces at the very time of
speaking. Easterlings and Orcs were attacking Dwarfs on th north, Elves
under Thranduil in Mirkwood as well as those under Galadriel in Lorien.
There were 3 assaults from Dol Guldur IIRC.

--
I've never heard words candy and only in the same sentence before

Rump Ranger

2005-01-09 02:12:02 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Did Galadriel do a lot of fighting during that time?

Yes! Battles described in LOTR are not the only ones that took place at that
time.

No kidding! I couldn't have guessed that from reading the books </end
sarcasm>. I asked if Galadriel specifically fought because I've only
read the Hobbit and LOTR. What happened during most of the First Age
isn't dealt with there but in other books. That's what I was asking
(First Age).

BTW- There's no mention of Galadriel specifically fighting during the
end of the Third Age. She stayed in Lorien and the Elves which lived
there under her command pretty much destroyed them. Reading the
chapters dealing with Lorien in book II, one gets the idea that
Galadriel wasn't needed because those Elves were so damn deadly in the
trees.

Post by Miracle
If you've seen ROTK EE you might remember Legolas saying to Gimli that
his kniship is probably fighting Saurons forces at the very time of
speaking. Easterlings and Orcs were attacking Dwarfs on th north, Elves
under Thranduil in Mirkwood as well as those under Galadriel in Lorien.
There were 3 assaults from Dol Guldur IIRC.

Yes, which are covered in the Apendices of the LOTR. Why did you
assume the assinine idea that I only thought "on screen" battles in the
movie were the only ones fought in the history of ME? Hell, the movie
even makes it clear battles were fought before the story.

Sheesh.

Miracle

2005-01-09 10:03:26 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
I asked if Galadriel specifically fought because I've only
read the Hobbit and LOTR. What happened during most of the First Age
isn't dealt with there but in other books. That's what I was asking
(First Age).

well excuse my English then. I thought you were asking about the Third age.

Post by Rump Ranger
BTW- There's no mention of Galadriel specifically fighting during the
end of the Third Age. She stayed in Lorien and the Elves which lived
there under her command pretty much destroyed them. Reading the
chapters dealing with Lorien in book II, one gets the idea that
Galadriel wasn't needed because those Elves were so damn deadly in the
trees.

She purified Dol Guldur IIRC.

Post by Miracle
If you've seen ROTK EE you might remember Legolas saying to Gimli
that his kniship is probably fighting Saurons forces at the very
time of speaking. Easterlings and Orcs were attacking Dwarfs on th
north, Elves under Thranduil in Mirkwood as well as those under
Galadriel in Lorien. There were 3 assaults from Dol Guldur IIRC.

Yes, which are covered in the Apendices of the LOTR.

Sorry, don't remember where is it from...

Post by Rump Ranger
Why did you
assume the assinine idea that I only thought "on screen" battles in
the movie were the only ones fought in the history of ME?

I didn't

--
I've never heard words candy and only in the same sentence before

Kelly Pedersen

2005-01-09 08:41:37 UTC

[snip]

Post by Taneli Pirinen
Meriadoc Branbybuck and Peregrin Took, both young members of great
families of the Hobbits.

Both of which haven't come of age by the time the first book starts.
They're the youngsters, still in their "tweens" when they leave the
Shire, IIRC.

'Fraid not. Merry is, in fact, 35, two years past his tweens. Pippin,
OTOH, _is_ in his tweens, as he is 27 when the action starts.

[snip]

Miracle

2005-01-09 00:37:06 UTC

Post by Taneli Pirinen
Both are ancient beyond recockning (well, not really, Tolkien tells
somewhere when they were born), but on the Third Age of the Light,
they were ancient beyond any imagination. Elrond was in the battles
in the end of the second age of light, and he old by then. Galadriel
had seen the lights in the west, and had born in the first age, if
I'm not totally mistaken.

Galadriel is daughter of Finarfin, son of Finwe, so yes, she was born in the
First Age, and is probably the oldest Elf east of Aman and the oldest of
living Noldor.
Elrond is _way_ much younger (end a Half-Elf), although he had married
Galadriel's daughter Celebrian. He fought with Gil-galad and Isildur (Last
Aliance)

Post by Taneli Pirinen
But one must also remember, that the spirits that came to middle-earth
as the five wizards were also ancient beyond recockning.

This goes even beyond Galadriel's (or any Elf's) recockining...

--
I've never heard words candy and only in the same sentence before

Peter Knutsen

2005-01-08 14:02:26 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
That's what I thought except that they're more like shadows with a wail
of the banshee type of effect which stuns and puts fear into men rather
than kills them. I'd also say they had a pretty powerful fear aura
(people didn't need to see them to feel their presence).

In Decipher's LOTR RPG, the fear aura grows stronger the
more ringwraiths there are (the Witch-King probably ought to
count as three ringwraiths, although I can't recall if the
RPG included this).

In D&D3 terms, the DC could start out at 20, and then go up
by +2 for each additional ringwraith, except the Witch-King
adds +6 instead of +2 (if the Witch-King is alone, his DC
would be 24).

Or would a higher DC be more suitable? Base 25, and +3 per
Nazgul, or +9 for witchie?

[...]
[Faramir]

Post by Rump Ranger
Hard to tell but he could best any Rider of the Rohirrim in combat (at
least that's what Eowyn thinks when she sizes him up). The only two
people of Rohan I think who could take Faramir (or give him a run for
his money) would be Eomer or Theoden.

I don't think either of those could beat Faramir. Possibly
not even both *together*. Faramir is, or so I seem to recall
having read (in one of the Letters?), almost pure Numenorean
blood. Which is pretty damn competent, overall. And, of
course, on top of bloody good genes he's had several decades
of intensive training (Aragorn was like 90 in the books -
Faramir could easily have been 50, which is not much older
than Theoden, but nevertheless young and spry for a Dunedain).

Of course, put Eomer on a horse, and Aragorn on foot, and I
wouldn't bet (much) on the outcome. As for Theoden, I think
he's too old. But he'd make it easier for Eomer if he helped.

[...]

Post by Lorenz Lang
Elrond: Fighter/Wizard
Galadriel: Sorcerer or Wizard
I see both at epic levels. Closely above Aragorn but below Gandalf.

Below Gandalf, but I'd think at least Elrond would wipe the floor with
Aragorn. Seriously. Galadriel doesn't strike me as the combat type.

Well, Elrond and Aragorn are relatives. Aragorns distant
forefather, Elros, was Aragorns brother. Elrond is also very
much a scholar, whereas Aragorn isn't too badly modelled by
a D&D Ranger (although he'd benefit from some kind of
Prestige Class, or at least a Feat, that gives bonuses to
his troops in mass battles).

But Elrond has age going for him. He's several thousand
years old (He'd have been born close to the end of the First
Age. The second age lasted for, IIRC, around 2500 years, and
LOTR takes place a bit more than 3000 years into the Third
Age), and as a Half-Elf who has chosen the Elven side
(whereas Elros chose the Human side), he hasn't aged at all.
He's as fit as your average 30 year old Human would be.

Post by Rump Ranger
I'd say she has some pretty strong charm spells at her disposal.
Elrond sounds like he has at least some druidic powers (able to control
the river which guards his land). Also remember that both had one of

More general, are there any D&D supplements (official or
otherwise?) with rules for this kind of "power of the land"
concept?

Or for that matter, other RPG systems which does this?
(Decipher's LOTR core book has only very little). It
interests me.

Post by Rump Ranger
the Three Great Rings which have to be major artifacts.

Yes, definitely.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

Rump Ranger

2005-01-08 21:59:37 UTC

In Decipher's LOTR RPG, the fear aura grows stronger the
more ringwraiths there are (the Witch-King probably ought to
count as three ringwraiths, although I can't recall if the
RPG included this).
In D&D3 terms, the DC could start out at 20, and then go up
by +2 for each additional ringwraith, except the Witch-King
adds +6 instead of +2 (if the Witch-King is alone, his DC
would be 24).

That makes sense.

Post by Peter Knutsen
Or would a higher DC be more suitable? Base 25, and +3 per
Nazgul, or +9 for witchie?

I don't think you need to jack it up that high. Otherwise real high
level characters like Faramir, Eowyn, and Aragorn would have been
overcome. Unless you want to give them immunity to fear, which is
understandable (in any case, I know Gandalf would be immune).

Post by Peter Knutsen
[...]
[Faramir]

I'm just saying the only two which I saw as standing a chance. It's
all academic because Faramir wouldn't fight them, but the Eomer I
imagined was one hell of a warrior. As was Theoden at his end. But if
push came to shove, he probably would take them both now that I think
of it.

Post by Peter Knutsen
Of course, put Eomer on a horse, and Aragorn on foot, and I
wouldn't bet (much) on the outcome. As for Theoden, I think
he's too old. But he'd make it easier for Eomer if he helped.

I'd think Aragorn could take Faramir alone. Despite Theoden's age, he
was a pretty good warrior. He was also fearless which is why I
disliked PJ's characterization of him during the TTT (although they did
a good job only during the ride of the Rohirrim and their charge). PJ
just got Theoden wrong.

Post by Peter Knutsen
[...]

Post by Lorenz Lang
Elrond: Fighter/Wizard
Galadriel: Sorcerer or Wizard
I see both at epic levels. Closely above Aragorn but below Gandalf.

Below Gandalf, but I'd think at least Elrond would wipe the floor with
Aragorn. Seriously. Galadriel doesn't strike me as the combat type.

Well, Elrond and Aragorn are relatives. Aragorns distant
forefather, Elros, was Aragorns brother.

Huh? Both a father and a brother? Sounds like one of them hillbilly
families to me.

Post by Peter Knutsen
Elrond is also very
much a scholar, whereas Aragorn isn't too badly modelled by
a D&D Ranger (although he'd benefit from some kind of
Prestige Class, or at least a Feat, that gives bonuses to
his troops in mass battles).

Could be a racial trait. Like you said, there are different subraces
of Men and "balance" shouldn't matter. Aragorn was born greater than
most men and might have a sort of bardic ability to inspire courage in
them.

Post by Peter Knutsen
But Elrond has age going for him. He's several thousand
years old (He'd have been born close to the end of the First
Age. The second age lasted for, IIRC, around 2500 years, and
LOTR takes place a bit more than 3000 years into the Third
Age), and as a Half-Elf who has chosen the Elven side
(whereas Elros chose the Human side), he hasn't aged at all.
He's as fit as your average 30 year old Human would be.

Yup. If it came to blows, I'd say Elrond would win sheerly based on
experience.

More general, are there any D&D supplements (official or
otherwise?) with rules for this kind of "power of the land"
concept?
Or for that matter, other RPG systems which does this?
(Decipher's LOTR core book has only very little). It
interests me.

AD&D's Dark Sun allowed Druids to have "power of the land" abilities
within their groves. Part of it could be a pact with nature spirits
who'd help out provided the one they made the pact with needed it. As
far as a codified system, I wouldn't know. Outside of D&D and White
Wolf (mostly Mage which does allow people to construct their own
domains and control reality), the only other system I'm really familiar
with is Dream Pod 9's Silhouette, which doesn't deal with magic all
that much (Heavy Gear and Jovian Chronicles have no magic and Tribe 8's
magic system is nothing like D&D's).

Post by Rump Ranger
the Three Great Rings which have to be major artifacts.

Yes, definitely.

Miracle

2005-01-09 01:11:21 UTC

Post by Peter Knutsen
Well, Elrond and Aragorn are relatives. Aragorns distant
forefather, Elros, was _Aragorns_ brother

You mean Elrond's ;o)
If you do some math it seems like:
- Luthien was 1/2 Elf, 1/2 Maia
- Dior was 1/2 Human, 1/4 Elf and 1/4 Maia
- Elwing was 1/4 Human, 5/8 Elf and 1/8 Maia
- Elors was (and Elrond is) 1/8 Human, 13/16 Elf and 1/16 Maia
- Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen are 1/16 Human, 29/32 Elf and 1/32 Maia
The last line also counts for Elros' son who was Aragorns forefather, so you
can easily count that Maia's blood in Aragorn's veins took neglectable part
for it halves with every generation. However it still has significant part
in Elrond's (and even Arwen's) blood.
:o)

--
I've never heard words candy and only in the same sentence before

Peter Knutsen

2005-01-09 01:56:14 UTC

Post by Peter Knutsen
Well, Elrond and Aragorn are relatives. Aragorns distant
forefather, Elros, was _Aragorns_ brother

You mean Elrond's ;o)

Yes I do. Sorry :-)

Post by Miracle
- Luthien was 1/2 Elf, 1/2 Maia
- Dior was 1/2 Human, 1/4 Elf and 1/4 Maia

This step is where my memory faded. It's been too long since
I last read the Silmarillion.

Post by Miracle
- Elwing was 1/4 Human, 5/8 Elf and 1/8 Maia
- Elors was (and Elrond is) 1/8 Human, 13/16 Elf and 1/16 Maia

Elros.

Post by Miracle
- Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen are 1/16 Human, 29/32 Elf and 1/32 Maia
The last line also counts for Elros' son who was Aragorns forefather, so you
can easily count that Maia's blood in Aragorn's veins took neglectable part

ISTR Tolkien writing, at one point, that Numenorean blood
(which, by definition, contains a fairly large fraction of
Elf and Maia) sometimes "runs strong" in particular
individuals, such as Aragorn and Faramir.

It's like genes skipping generations. You'll get a dozen
Dunedain, in a row, who are hardly superior to ordinary Men,
and then the a pure one is born, greatly surprising everybody.

Post by Miracle
for it halves with every generation. However it still has significant part
in Elrond's (and even Arwen's) blood.
:o)

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

Rupert Boleyn

2005-01-09 02:23:31 UTC

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 02:56:14 +0100, Peter Knutsen

Post by Peter Knutsen
ISTR Tolkien writing, at one point, that Numenorean blood
(which, by definition, contains a fairly large fraction of
Elf and Maia) sometimes "runs strong" in particular
individuals, such as Aragorn and Faramir.
It's like genes skipping generations. You'll get a dozen
Dunedain, in a row, who are hardly superior to ordinary Men,
and then the a pure one is born, greatly surprising everybody.

It also appears that nobility of spirit strengthens the effect of the
blood. The Numenoreans didn't start fading in stature, ability, and
longevity until they became decadent and were swayed by Sauron.

--
Rupert Boleyn <***@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

Miracle

2005-01-09 10:06:32 UTC

Post by Miracle
- Luthien was 1/2 Elf, 1/2 Maia
- Dior was 1/2 Human, 1/4 Elf and 1/4 Maia

This step is where my memory faded. It's been too long since
I last read the Silmarillion.

I've been reading it last days, that's why I did all this :)

Post by Miracle
- Elwing was 1/4 Human, 5/8 Elf and 1/8 Maia
- Elors was (and Elrond is) 1/8 Human, 13/16 Elf and 1/16 Maia

Elros.

typo

--
I've never heard words candy and only in the same sentence before

Rupert Boleyn

2005-01-09 02:21:08 UTC

Post by Miracle
You mean Elrond's ;o)
- Luthien was 1/2 Elf, 1/2 Maia
- Dior was 1/2 Human, 1/4 Elf and 1/4 Maia
- Elwing was 1/4 Human, 5/8 Elf and 1/8 Maia
- Elors was (and Elrond is) 1/8 Human, 13/16 Elf and 1/16 Maia
- Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen are 1/16 Human, 29/32 Elf and 1/32 Maia
The last line also counts for Elros' son who was Aragorns forefather, so you
can easily count that Maia's blood in Aragorn's veins took neglectable part
for it halves with every generation. However it still has significant part
in Elrond's (and even Arwen's) blood.
:o)

Ah, but how thin must Maia blood be before it is truely
'insignificant'?

--
Rupert Boleyn <***@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

Kelly Pedersen

2005-01-09 08:51:52 UTC

Post by Peter Knutsen
Well, Elrond and Aragorn are relatives. Aragorns distant
forefather, Elros, was _Aragorns_ brother

You mean Elrond's ;o)
- Luthien was 1/2 Elf, 1/2 Maia
- Dior was 1/2 Human, 1/4 Elf and 1/4 Maia
- Elwing was 1/4 Human, 5/8 Elf and 1/8 Maia
- Elors was (and Elrond is) 1/8 Human, 13/16 Elf and 1/16 Maia

Problem right here. Remember, Elwing married Earendil, who was also 1/2
elf and 1/2 human. So, in fact, Elros and Elrond are 3/8 human, 9/16
elf, and 1/16 Maia.

Post by Miracle
- Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen are 1/16 Human, 29/32 Elf and 1/32 Maia

And Arwen et all are 3/16 human, 25/32 elf, and 1/32 Maia.

There. Pedantry done.

Peter Knutsen

2005-01-08 13:51:19 UTC

Post by Lorenz Lang
In the books Gandalf is much more 'active' than in the movies.
It starts in 'The Hobbit' with tricking the trolls and casting fireballs
at the attacking worgs and orcs IIRC. Classic wizard/sorcerer stuff.
In LotR he was responsible for the flood (not Arwen, grr), washing away

Elrond made the flood, possibly (although I don't think so)
with help from the other Elves. Gandalf just added to the
power of the flood (and it's possible that the only thing he
added was some pretty horses, with no "game-mechanical" effect)

Post by Lorenz Lang
the Wraiths. The hobbits and Aragorn see his flashy firemagic from the far
and found a whole hilltop scorched and blackened (IIRC again).
In Moria he magically sealed a portal, but the Balrog broke the spell
weakening Gandalf.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

Miracle

2005-01-09 01:17:17 UTC

Post by Lorenz Lang
In the books Gandalf is much more 'active' than in the movies.
It starts in 'The Hobbit' with tricking the trolls and casting
fireballs at the attacking worgs and orcs IIRC. Classic
wizard/sorcerer stuff.
The hobbits and Aragorn see his flashy firemagic
from the far and found a whole hilltop scorched and blackened (IIRC
again).

Don't forget Gandalf had Narya, the Ring of Fire.

Post by Lorenz Lang
Elrond: Fighter/Wizard
Galadriel: Sorcerer or Wizard
I see both at epic levels. Closely above Aragorn but below Gandalf.

Considering Galadriel's age, she should definitely be much more above
Aragorn.

--
I've never heard words candy and only in the same sentence before

Ian R Malcomson

2005-01-07 19:57:26 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and several
levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using D&D
classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he can
heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster). Then
again, we never really see Gandalf's true power. His job was to
inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
(I'd say epic levels).

I don't think the Celestial template works for Gandalf as well as, say,
creating "Istari" as a race unto itself.

Anyway... after a bit of unsuccessful searching - does anyone know
where a fairly extensive (as in heading back a few years) archive of
this NG can be found? We've done this "What would LotR D&D stats be..."
before - it might be of interest to recap.

--
Ian R Malcomson
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"

Rump Ranger

2005-01-07 20:35:08 UTC

Then

I don't think the Celestial template works for Gandalf as well as, say,
creating "Istari" as a race unto itself.

How would you go about that seeing as how the only two Istari which we
see up close and personal have different powers? Yeah, we see
Rhadagast for maybe 3 pages but all we've really got about him is
Gandalf's description and that he told the Eagles about Saruman's news
at Gandalf's request. That and the fact that Gandalf used his name for
Beorn to gain favor in the Hobbit. If Rhadagast or the other two make
an appearence in any other Tolkien work, then obviously things change.

All I know is that Gandalf the White seems to me like a Celestial
Outsider (and Saruman is a fallen one). I'm all game for an Istari
template if it can be done.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Anyway... after a bit of unsuccessful searching - does anyone know
where a fairly extensive (as in heading back a few years) archive of
this NG can be found? We've done this "What would LotR D&D stats be..."
before - it might be of interest to recap.

Did you check Google? I did and found the discussions to be from a few
years back and mostly a flamewar.

Ian R Malcomson

2005-01-07 21:54:01 UTC

<Snip>

Post by Ian R Malcomson
I don't think the Celestial template works for Gandalf as well as,

say,

Post by Ian R Malcomson
creating "Istari" as a race unto itself.

How would you go about that seeing as how the only two Istari which we
see up close and personal have different powers? Yeah, we see
Rhadagast for maybe 3 pages but all we've really got about him is
Gandalf's description and that he told the Eagles about Saruman's news
at Gandalf's request. That and the fact that Gandalf used his name for
Beorn to gain favor in the Hobbit. If Rhadagast or the other two make
an appearence in any other Tolkien work, then obviously things change.
All I know is that Gandalf the White seems to me like a Celestial
Outsider (and Saruman is a fallen one). I'm all game for an Istari
template if it can be done.

Nooo, not a *template*... What would you apply the template to? (Read
as in a similar line to "What would you apply a Solar template to....").

As to the lack of info, well... Sil. and the Histories do provide more
snippets, but they are pretty much just that - snippets. I'd go about
it by... making it up :)

Note that I'm not belittling your idea of making Gandalf a celestial -
just stating that it's not a path I'd go down for him. Give Gandalf to
100 people, and get 100 different Gandalfs!

be..."

Post by Ian R Malcomson
before - it might be of interest to recap.

Did you check Google? I did and found the discussions to be from a few
years back and mostly a flamewar.

Aha, I've found it - thanks! Some of it was a flamewar - par for the
course here (c'est la vie). Anyway, I found my thinkings on LotR
character stats in there. The thread is around 2003, and there was some
good (non-flamey) discussion on my attempts, particularly from Kevin
Lowe and Chris Blasken.

**
Gandalf: 12HD Outsider (Maiar/Istari), Bard 10, divine rank 0. Barred
from using his Outsider/Maiar/divine abilities overtly until being sent
back to Middle-earth as Gandalf the White. Does not gain levels
normally. As Gandalf the White, I have a debate: either 20HD
Outsider/Bard 10, or 12HD Outsider/Bard 8/Cleric 10 (he "turns" the
Nazgûl - his white staff could be said to enhance his turning ability).
If the non-Cleric path is taken, then I suggest that Maiar or Istari (as
a subtype) grants turning ability. NG.
**
Bilbo: Expert 3 (scribe/scholar); gains Rogue levels during The Hobbit,
advances his Expert levels thereafter (picking back up his role as
scribe and scholar). NG. End of The Hobbit: Exp3/Rog8. End of LotR:
Exp12/Rog8. Other Notes: Expert class skills: Bluff, Decipher Script,
Gather Information, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge
(local), Listen, Profession (scribe), Search, Speak Language, Spot.
**
Frodo: Expert 2 (scribe/scholar)/Rogue 1 (under tutelage and influence
of Bilbo) at the start of LotR. Gains levels as a Rogue throughout
LotR. LG. End of LotR: Rog12. Other Notes: Expert skills as Bilbo.
**
Sam: Expert 4 (gardener) as gardener to Bilbo. Gains levels in Rogue
during the early portion of LotR, but switches to Ranger during the
journey into Mordor. NG. End of LotR: Exp4/Rog3/Rgr6. Other Notes:
Expert skills: Craft (woodworking), Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge
(nature), Profession (gardener), Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Use
Rope. Two-weapon fighting combat style (heck, he wields Galadriel's
light and a sword against Shelob...).
**
Merry: Aristocrat 3 as Master of Buckland. Gains levels in Rogue up to
Isengard. Gains levels in Fighter in service to Théoden. NG. End of
LotR: Ari3/Rog3/Ftr5.
**
Pippin: Rogue 2. Continues to gain Rogue levels up to Minas Tirith.
Gains Fighter levels in service to Denethor II and the defence of Minas
Tirith. CG. End of LotR: Rog6/Ftr4.
**
Aragorn: Ranger 10. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger until
accepting his status as heir to Isildur. Gains Fighter levels
thereafter, in the defence of Pelargir and subsequent battles. NG, but
shifts to LG after accepting his role as a leader of men. End of LotR:
Rgr14/Ftr5. Two-weapon fighting combat style.
**
Gimli: Fighter 7. Continues to gain levels as a Fighter throughout.
CG. End of LotR: Ftr16.
**
Legolas: Ranger 7. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger throughout.
CG. End of LotR: Rgr16. Archery combat style.
**
Boromir: Fighter 9. Continues to gain levels as a Fighter. LN. At
death Ftr12.
**
Faramir: Ranger 4/Fighter 3. Continues to gain levels as a Fighter.
LG. End of LotR: Rgr4/Ftr6.
**
Théoden: Ranger 4/Fighter 8. Continues to gain Fighter levels
throughout. N under the influence of Gríma/Saruman, NG when freed from
that curse by Gandalf. At death: Rgr4/Ftr11.
**
Eomer: Ranger 7. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End of
LotR: Rgr12.
**
Eowyn: Ranger 5. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End of
LotR: Rgr10.
**
Denethor II: Aristocrat 8. Gains no levels during the LotR. LN..
**
Why hobbits start with NPC levels: Hobbits are a simple folk, normally
far removed from the heroics. Indeed, part of the point behind LotR is
to follow common folk (the hobbits) into herodom. We (as readers) are
essentially the hobbits (as normal folk) following the path to valour
and glory. We see Middle-earth through their eyes.
**
Why Rohirrim have Ranger levels: Rohirrim are largely nomadic (Survival
skill), and are attached to their horses (wild empathy). This makes
them "natural" rangers.
**
***************
[From sub-thread discussion on the Maiar with Deathdog...]

If we assume the lower DvR represent the Maiar, and
that the two greatest Valar (Manwë and Melkor) are represented by DvR 20
(which is not to say Morgoth was DvR 20 - he fled from Tulkas, which is
not something I'd envisage Melkor pre-fall doing), the others should
logically fall somewhere between (with the Aratar at the upper end).
So...

--ARATAR--
Manwë Súlimo, Lord of the Breath of Arda: DvR 20
Varda (Elbereth), Lady of the Stars [f]: DvR 19
Ulmo, Lord of Waters [m]: DvR 18
Aulë [m]: DvR 18
Yavanna Kementári, Giver of Fruits [f]: DvR 17
Oromë (Aldaron, Tauron) [m]: DvR 16
Námo (Mandos), Keeper of the Houses of the Dead, Fëanturi [m]: DvR 15
Nienna, Fëanturi [f]: DvR15

--OTHER VALAR--
Irmo (Lórien), Fëanturi [m]: DvR 14
Estë the Gentle [f]: DvR 13
Vairë the Weaver of History [f]: DvR 12
Tulkas Astaldo [m]: DvR 11
Vána the Ever-Young [f]: DvR 10
Nessa [f]: DvR 8

...And...
Melkor: DvR 20, DvR 9 (after fall, as Morgoth)
**
Tom Bombadil (another possible Maia) could possibly be DvR 1-2. Why ot
DvR 0? Because you could state that the Ring cannot affect beings of
DvR 1 or higher - the Ring had no effect on Bombadil, but Gandalf was
certainly concerned that it might affect himself. Why not higher?
Because, let's face it, he just doesn't come across as being divine
enough.
**

--
Ian R Malcomson
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"

Rump Ranger

2005-01-07 22:37:07 UTC

Post by Ian R Malcomson
<Snip>

Post by Ian R Malcomson
I don't think the Celestial template works for Gandalf as well as,

say,

Post by Ian R Malcomson
creating "Istari" as a race unto itself.

How would you go about that seeing as how the only two Istari which we
see up close and personal have different powers? Yeah, we see
Rhadagast for maybe 3 pages but all we've really got about him is
Gandalf's description and that he told the Eagles about Saruman's news
at Gandalf's request. That and the fact that Gandalf used his name for
Beorn to gain favor in the Hobbit. If Rhadagast or the other two make
an appearence in any other Tolkien work, then obviously things change.
All I know is that Gandalf the White seems to me like a Celestial
Outsider (and Saruman is a fallen one). I'm all game for an Istari
template if it can be done.

Nooo, not a *template*... What would you apply the template to?

(Read

Post by Ian R Malcomson
as in a similar line to "What would you apply a Solar template

to....").
My bad.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
As to the lack of info, well... Sil. and the Histories do provide more
snippets, but they are pretty much just that - snippets. I'd go about
it by... making it up :)
Note that I'm not belittling your idea of making Gandalf a celestial -
just stating that it's not a path I'd go down for him. Give Gandalf to
100 people, and get 100 different Gandalfs!

Yup. Although I'd say Sir Ian did about as good a Gandalf on-screen as
anyone could.

be..."

Post by Ian R Malcomson
before - it might be of interest to recap.

Did you check Google? I did and found the discussions to be from a few
years back and mostly a flamewar.

Barred

Post by Ian R Malcomson
from using his Outsider/Maiar/divine abilities overtly until being sent
back to Middle-earth as Gandalf the White. Does not gain levels
normally. As Gandalf the White, I have a debate: either 20HD
Outsider/Bard 10, or 12HD Outsider/Bard 8/Cleric 10 (he "turns" the
Nazgûl - his white staff could be said to enhance his turning

ability).

Post by Ian R Malcomson
If the non-Cleric path is taken, then I suggest that Maiar or Istari (as
a subtype) grants turning ability. NG.

That makes sense.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
**
Bilbo: Expert 3 (scribe/scholar); gains Rogue levels during The Hobbit,
advances his Expert levels thereafter (picking back up his role as
Exp12/Rog8. Other Notes: Expert class skills: Bluff, Decipher

Script,

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Gather Information, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history),

Knowledge

Post by Ian R Malcomson
(local), Listen, Profession (scribe), Search, Speak Language, Spot.
**

I disagree with expert beginning with the hobbit. Maybe a 1-2 commoner
which gains levels in rogue on the way.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Frodo: Expert 2 (scribe/scholar)/Rogue 1 (under tutelage and

influence

Post by Ian R Malcomson
of Bilbo) at the start of LotR. Gains levels as a Rogue throughout
LotR. LG. End of LotR: Rog12. Other Notes: Expert skills as Bilbo.
**

I'd go for the expert and maybe a little rogue for Frodo starting.
Doesn't seem to gain that many levels over the book though.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Sam: Expert 4 (gardener) as gardener to Bilbo. Gains levels in Rogue
during the early portion of LotR, but switches to Ranger during the
Expert skills: Craft (woodworking), Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge
(nature), Profession (gardener), Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Use
Rope. Two-weapon fighting combat style (heck, he wields Galadriel's
light and a sword against Shelob...).
**

I simply disagree with this power level. Maybe exp 1-2 for gardener
with a little rogue put in during the time with the fellowship before
Rauros. I'd say he rather became a fighter with handle animal in the
later books. I don't think he needed two-weapon fighting too much
because he never really used the phial as a weapon (at least to stike
Shelob). He held it to shine light in her eyes.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Merry: Aristocrat 3 as Master of Buckland. Gains levels in Rogue up to
Isengard. Gains levels in Fighter in service to Théoden. NG. End of
LotR: Ari3/Rog3/Ftr5.
**

Was he master of Buckland before Fellowship? IIRC, he and Pippen were
the youngsters and still haven't "come of age" by the time they left
the Shire. Seems odd a young Merry would run that part of the Shire.
After the Scouring I'd agree.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Pippin: Rogue 2. Continues to gain Rogue levels up to Minas Tirith.
Gains Fighter levels in service to Denethor II and the defence of Minas
Tirith. CG. End of LotR: Rog6/Ftr4.
**

I'd say the levels are too far advanced. Maybe Rog3/Ftr3 but not tenth
level. He did kill a troll but he didn't wade into battle and kill a
couple score like Gimli, Aragorn, or Legolas.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Aragorn: Ranger 10. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger until
accepting his status as heir to Isildur. Gains Fighter levels
thereafter, in the defence of Pelargir and subsequent battles. NG, but
Rgr14/Ftr5. Two-weapon fighting combat style.
**

Not much argument expect that I'd put Aragorn as archery style. He
never wielded two weapons (didn't need to with the Arundil).

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Gimli: Fighter 7. Continues to gain levels as a Fighter throughout.
CG. End of LotR: Ftr16.
**

I'd say he started higher. He fought against Uruk-hai in Fellowship
but not many and he had Legolas to back him up. His first real battle
was Helm's Deep and he killed like 46 orcs.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Legolas: Ranger 7. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger throughout.
CG. End of LotR: Rgr16. Archery combat style.
**

Disagree as a ranger. He couldn't track and didn't seem to have
healing powers like Aragorn did. He could be a varient which didn't
cast spells but that would take away all the feats I'd imagine he'd
have and (the obvious) weapon specialization. I'd compromise and say
maybe Rgr5/Ftr15. He was a few thousand years old.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Boromir: Fighter 9. Continues to gain levels as a Fighter. LN. At
death Ftr12.
**
Faramir: Ranger 4/Fighter 3. Continues to gain levels as a Fighter.
LG. End of LotR: Rgr4/Ftr6.
**
Théoden: Ranger 4/Fighter 8. Continues to gain Fighter levels
throughout. N under the influence of Gríma/Saruman, NG when freed from
that curse by Gandalf. At death: Rgr4/Ftr11.
**

How would Theoden be a ranger? I don't get it. He'd be a fighter with
maxed out stats in riding, mounted fighting feats, and leadership.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Eomer: Ranger 7. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End of
LotR: Rgr12.
**

Again, I don't see how Eomer is a ranger. He knows the land but not to
the level like a true Dunedain ranger did. Furthermore, he was a
master at mounted combat. Fighter fits him better for the feats. I
don't see him as CG but rather LG.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Eowyn: Ranger 5. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End of
LotR: Rgr10.
**

I fail to see ranger in her either. Fighter all the way with maybe
some prestige class called shieldmaiden.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Denethor II: Aristocrat 8. Gains no levels during the LotR. LN..
**

Wasn't Denethor a mighty warrior in his youth? He also had the power
to sort of read men's minds and gaze in a palantir without being
dominated by Sauron (granted Sauron showed him bad things but he showed
the ability to use it for his own as well).

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Why hobbits start with NPC levels: Hobbits are a simple folk,

normally

Post by Ian R Malcomson
far removed from the heroics. Indeed, part of the point behind LotR is
to follow common folk (the hobbits) into herodom. We (as readers) are
essentially the hobbits (as normal folk) following the path to valour
and glory. We see Middle-earth through their eyes.
**

Agreed.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Why Rohirrim have Ranger levels: Rohirrim are largely nomadic

(Survival

Post by Ian R Malcomson
skill), and are attached to their horses (wild empathy). This makes
them "natural" rangers.
**

It's possible some had a couple ranger levels here and there but I'm
inclined to believe they were more or less fighters with a lot of
training on mounted combat and riding. One could also make a PrC
entitled Rohirrim with those skills and a feat progression including a
lot of mounted combat.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
***************
[From sub-thread discussion on the Maiar with Deathdog...]
If we assume the lower DvR represent the Maiar, and
that the two greatest Valar (Manwë and Melkor) are represented by DvR 20
(which is not to say Morgoth was DvR 20 - he fled from Tulkas, which is
not something I'd envisage Melkor pre-fall doing), the others should
logically fall somewhere between (with the Aratar at the upper end).
So...
--ARATAR--
Manwë Súlimo, Lord of the Breath of Arda: DvR 20
Varda (Elbereth), Lady of the Stars [f]: DvR 19
Ulmo, Lord of Waters [m]: DvR 18
Aulë [m]: DvR 18
Yavanna Kementári, Giver of Fruits [f]: DvR 17
Oromë (Aldaron, Tauron) [m]: DvR 16
Námo (Mandos), Keeper of the Houses of the Dead, Fëanturi [m]: DvR 15
Nienna, Fëanturi [f]: DvR15
--OTHER VALAR--
Irmo (Lórien), Fëanturi [m]: DvR 14
Estë the Gentle [f]: DvR 13
Vairë the Weaver of History [f]: DvR 12
Tulkas Astaldo [m]: DvR 11
Vána the Ever-Young [f]: DvR 10
Nessa [f]: DvR 8
...And...
Melkor: DvR 20, DvR 9 (after fall, as Morgoth)
**
Tom Bombadil (another possible Maia) could possibly be DvR 1-2. Why ot
DvR 0? Because you could state that the Ring cannot affect beings of
DvR 1 or higher - the Ring had no effect on Bombadil, but Gandalf was
certainly concerned that it might affect himself. Why not higher?
Because, let's face it, he just doesn't come across as being divine
enough.
**

Tom Bambadil is an enigma. Tolkien left him that way on purpose.

Ian R Malcomson

2005-01-08 01:24:14 UTC

<Snip>

Post by Rump Ranger
Yup. Although I'd say Sir Ian did about as good a Gandalf on-screen as
anyone could.

You won't find any argument from me on that score!

Post by Ian R Malcomson
**
Bilbo: Expert 3 (scribe/scholar)

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
End of The Hobbit: Exp3/Rog8. End of
Exp12/Rog8.

I disagree with expert beginning with the hobbit. Maybe a 1-2 commoner
which gains levels in rogue on the way.

My reasoning for Exp is his fascination and study of things elven, and
"scholar" is very difficult to model with Com (not enough skill points
in the right areas...). Then again, in the situations that arise in
Hob. don't make him out to have any special knowledge, and Rog levels
can certainly accommodate the "scholar" concept (cross-class though the
relevant Knowledge skills may be) he falls into between Hob. and LotR.
So, I'm not against your Com model (but am, obviously, more for my Exp
model).

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Frodo: Expert 2 (scribe/scholar)/Rogue 1

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
End of LotR: Rog12. Other Notes: Expert skills as Bilbo.
**

I'd go for the expert and maybe a little rogue for Frodo starting.
Doesn't seem to gain that many levels over the book though.

Perhaps... I was going by more what he experienced, rather than what
you actually see him do. But then, what he mostly experiences is hiding
and being rescued by Sam.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Sam: Expert 4 (gardener)

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Exp4/Rog3/Rgr6
**

Okay, I'm with you on this one.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Merry: Aristocrat 3 as Master of Buckland.

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
End

Post by Ian R Malcomson
LotR: Ari3/Rog3/Ftr5.
**

Was he master of Buckland before Fellowship?

No... My bad. Odd no-one picked that up before (including myself!).

Post by Rump Ranger
IIRC, he and Pippen were
the youngsters and still haven't "come of age" by the time they left
the Shire. Seems odd a young Merry would run that part of the Shire.
After the Scouring I'd agree.

As heir to Buckland, then, perhaps Ari1 at the start (making him
Ari1/Rog3/Ftr5 at end). Then gaining further Ari levels as Master in
the FO.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Pippin: Rogue 2.

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
End of LotR: Rog6/Ftr4.
**

I'd say the levels are too far advanced. Maybe Rog3/Ftr3 but not tenth
level. He did kill a troll but he didn't wade into battle and kill a
couple score like Gimli, Aragorn, or Legolas.

The argument here is that he did get involved. Okay, so maybe my level
assignment for him is a bit optimistic...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Aragorn: Ranger 10.

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
End of
Rgr14/Ftr5. Two-weapon fighting combat style.
**

Not much argument expect that I'd put Aragorn as archery style. He
never wielded two weapons (didn't need to with the Arundil).

The argument here is that Aragorn comes across mostly as a melee-type
combatant moreso than a ranged-type one. More unobserved bow-slinging
than observed TWF - and that combat style has to go somewhere.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Gimli: Fighter 7.

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
End of LotR: Ftr16.
**

I'd say he started higher. He fought against Uruk-hai in Fellowship
but not many and he had Legolas to back him up. His first real battle
was Helm's Deep and he killed like 46 orcs.

Amazing what you can do when those crits just keep showing up ;)

Actually, that's not too far off. If you assume Great Cleave, and use
"typical" orcs (War1), in the press that Helm's Deep became, 46 orcs
could be done (given luck of the dice) in about 6 rounds. Obviously
unlikely, but possible.

In any case, the start levels for many of these assumptions are based on
"perceived prior activities", and I just don't think Gimli did enough
pre-LotR to make him higher. The same goes for Legolas, despite his age
(see below).

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Legolas: Ranger 7.

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
End of LotR: Rgr16. Archery combat style.
**

Maybe I'm overfond of rangers. I'll grant Ftr seems to fit better.

The age argument is somewhat moot. Age doesn't necessarily mean higher
level - you don't gain levels automatically per decade or somesuch. So,
it boils down to that perceived activity thing. It's indicated that
he's got a few millennia behind him, but his name isn't found that much
in ME history. So I've taken this as an indicator that he hasn't *done*
all that much (in an extraordinary, level-increasing way in any case).
Running through Mirkwood hunting bunnies won't make you past 3rd, pretty
much. Throw in a few orc forays, maybe the odd special deed for his
dad...

While we're here on age, and to explain a little why most of the
characters have relatively big level-leaps over the course of LotR (9 in
my model, for Legolas, e.g.). It's something I call "concentrated
experience". Take the average bunch of PCs. They might:

* Wander down a dungeon
* Return to city, spend cash, R&R, buy stuff
* Wander down a dungeon...
..etc..

Most won't earn XP during the "city" periods (in fact, if they're of a
mind to make magic items etc., they'll actually be spending XP instead).
If a dungeon expedition is a week, and R&R (to allow for making stuff
etc.) is a month, that's the equivalent of 10 dungeons per year or so.

Now, assuming sewage gets into the air conditioning, armies go to war,
big weirdo flaming eye thing lights up... the model might be more "go
here, go here, go here, go here..........R&R? What's that?". Unless
there's a lull, PCs that are in the thick of it might experience 50
dungeon equivalents.

Anyway, I digress. With Legolas, my assumption is that he has undergone
a 1 dungeon equivalent per century or more.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Théoden: Ranger 4/Fighter 8

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
At death: Rgr4/Ftr11.
**

How would Theoden be a ranger? I don't get it. He'd be a fighter with
maxed out stats in riding, mounted fighting feats, and leadership.

That's wrapped up in my note on the Rohirrim as rangers, below.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Eomer: Ranger 7. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End of
LotR: Rgr12.
**

Again, I don't see how Eomer is a ranger. He knows the land but not to
the level like a true Dunedain ranger did.

That's more a question of where each put their skill points than class
choice. The Rohirrim ranger might throw them more into Ride, Survival,
Handle Animal, etc., while the Dunedain might bandy some into Knowledge
skills. Also, don't confuse the LotR definition of Ranger (as in
Aragorn and his pals), and the D&D class.

The Rohirrim were good trackers, had a good knowledge of their lands,
and had a connection with their horses - that's what makes them rangers,
IMO.

Post by Rump Ranger
Furthermore, he was a
master at mounted combat. Fighter fits him better for the feats. I
don't see him as CG but rather LG.

Wild empathy can make you a master at mounted combat, especially if your
mount is also your animal companion. Yes, Mounted Combat and related
feats are neat (and the Rohirrim would certainly have them), having your
mount clued up can make as much a difference as your ability to ride it.

On alignment... well, it's always difficult to assign alignments to
literary or real-life personalities that haven't been lifted from D&D
source, so that's a moot point we could argue ourselves in circles over
- so I'll leave that bottle of worms debate well alone.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Eowyn: Ranger 5. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End of
LotR: Rgr10.
**

I fail to see ranger in her either. Fighter all the way with maybe
some prestige class called shieldmaiden.

Oooh, if you bring prestige classes into the mix, virtually all of them
would follow some LotR setting-specific PrC or other. Dunedain Ranger,
Rohirrim Rider, Elven Acrobat-Archer, Hobbit Gardener... Well, maybe
not Hobbit Gardener... I was avoiding the PrC issue to keep things
simple and core, but yes, I agree, most LotR characters would benefit
from PrCs in terms of more accurately modelling them.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Denethor II: Aristocrat 8. Gains no levels during the LotR. LN..
**

Yes, but bear in mind that, apart from BAB, Ari trumps War in a number
of ways (okay, but not Ftr). The model here is how Denethor comes over
at the time of LotR to me. Perhaps Ari/Ftr might be better to model him
accounting for his whole history. Using the palantir might be a
function of a good Will save (from Ari) and ranks in Use Magic Device.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Why Rohirrim have Ranger levels: Rohirrim are largely nomadic

(Survival

Post by Ian R Malcomson
skill), and are attached to their horses (wild empathy). This makes
them "natural" rangers.
**

Granted, but in lieu of such a prestige class, IMO ranger suits them.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Tom Bombadil (another possible Maia) could possibly be DvR 1-2. Why

Post by Ian R Malcomson
DvR 0? Because you could state that the Ring cannot affect beings of
DvR 1 or higher - the Ring had no effect on Bombadil, but Gandalf was
certainly concerned that it might affect himself. Why not higher?
Because, let's face it, he just doesn't come across as being divine
enough.
**

Tom Bambadil is an enigma. Tolkien left him that way on purpose.

Yes, Bombadil is an odd one by design. When FotR came out, omitting
Bombadil, I did feel a moment of pain. But then I figured, the guy just
comes across as a relapse into an acid trip part-way through the book
that serves pretty much as a side-trek to rescue the hobbits from the
barrow-wights. Then again, the barrow-wight scene in the book is one of
my favourites - cutting Bombadil logically meant cutting that, too, for
which I mourn.

--
Ian R Malcomson
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"

Rump Ranger

2005-01-08 21:36:54 UTC

Post by Ian R Malcomson
<Snip>

Post by Rump Ranger
Yup. Although I'd say Sir Ian did about as good a Gandalf on-screen as
anyone could.

You won't find any argument from me on that score!

I'd say most of the actors did a good job with what they were given.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
**
Bilbo: Expert 3 (scribe/scholar)

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
End of The Hobbit: Exp3/Rog8. End of
Exp12/Rog8.

I disagree with expert beginning with the hobbit. Maybe a 1-2 commoner
which gains levels in rogue on the way.

Expert could work because Bilbo was kind of a scholar as far as hobbits
were concerned. It's possible but most of his knowledge was based on
poetry and songs.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Frodo: Expert 2 (scribe/scholar)/Rogue 1

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
End of LotR: Rog12. Other Notes: Expert skills as Bilbo.
**

I'd go for the expert and maybe a little rogue for Frodo starting.
Doesn't seem to gain that many levels over the book though.

Perhaps... I was going by more what he experienced, rather than what
you actually see him do. But then, what he mostly experiences is hiding
and being rescued by Sam.

Yeah, but even in a D&D context one can argue he doesn't gain many
levels over the course of his journey. The more I think about it, the
less likely I think Frodo had high will saves. Consider that it took
multiple years for the Ring to corrupt Gollum and he started out evil
(by killing Deagle and terrorizing people in his village). Bilbo was
barely corrupted by it and he had it for over 40 years. IMO, the Ring
is more or less a slow corrupter which only asserts itself when it's
time to give the thing up, which only Bilbo and Sam are capable of
doing. Faramir also resisted the lure of the Ring and was never
tempted (despite how Peter Jackson portrayed him). I think a
character's goodness is more important than their will saves.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Sam: Expert 4 (gardener)

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Exp4/Rog3/Rgr6
**

Okay, I'm with you on this one.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Merry: Aristocrat 3 as Master of Buckland.

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
End

Post by Ian R Malcomson
LotR: Ari3/Rog3/Ftr5.
**

Was he master of Buckland before Fellowship?

No... My bad. Odd no-one picked that up before (including myself!).

No problem. The books are like 600000 words.

As heir to Buckland, then, perhaps Ari1 at the start (making him
Ari1/Rog3/Ftr5 at end). Then gaining further Ari levels as Master in
the FO.

After ROTK, I can see Merry leading Buckland because he commanded the
hobbits when they took down "sharkey's" men during the Scouring of the
Shire. I think the hobbits were quite impressed in how Pippen and
Merry grew up on their journey (physically as well because of the
ent-draughts).

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Pippin: Rogue 2.

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
End of LotR: Rog6/Ftr4.
**

I'd say the levels are too far advanced. Maybe Rog3/Ftr3 but not tenth
level. He did kill a troll but he didn't wade into battle and kill a
couple score like Gimli, Aragorn, or Legolas.

The argument here is that he did get involved. Okay, so maybe my level
assignment for him is a bit optimistic...

I would never deny he didn't get involved. It's just that Tolkien's
orcs and most of their allies were mooks. At best 1rst level
characters.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Aragorn: Ranger 10.

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
End of
Rgr14/Ftr5. Two-weapon fighting combat style.
**

Not much argument expect that I'd put Aragorn as archery style. He
never wielded two weapons (didn't need to with the Arundil).

The argument here is that Aragorn comes across mostly as a melee-type
combatant moreso than a ranged-type one. More unobserved

bow-slinging

Post by Ian R Malcomson
than observed TWF - and that combat style has to go somewhere.

Uh, I believe he did use a bow during the fight in Moria to slay some
orcs (I know Boromir and Legolas did). There's no TWP to be seen from
what I remember (unless you count him possibly using shields as both a
weapon and armor).

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Gimli: Fighter 7.

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
End of LotR: Ftr16.
**

I'd say he started higher. He fought against Uruk-hai in Fellowship
but not many and he had Legolas to back him up. His first real battle
was Helm's Deep and he killed like 46 orcs.

Amazing what you can do when those crits just keep showing up ;)

Heh.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Actually, that's not too far off. If you assume Great Cleave, and use
"typical" orcs (War1), in the press that Helm's Deep became, 46 orcs
could be done (given luck of the dice) in about 6 rounds. Obviously
unlikely, but possible.

Even moreso because Saruman's Uruk-hai were a cut above the typical
orc. They had to have at least a level of fighter more in comparison
(maybe even 2-3). Remember, Saruman's Uruks fought orcs under Sauron
and dominated them despite being outnumbered.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
In any case, the start levels for many of these assumptions are based on
"perceived prior activities", and I just don't think Gimli did enough
pre-LotR to make him higher. The same goes for Legolas, despite his age
(see below).

We wouldn't know because we discovered ME through the hobbit's eyes.
We do know that Gloin went with Bilbo and that the Dwarves fought many
battles. They were a reclusive folk and men in the south
(Gondor/Rohan) would never have heard of him.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Legolas: Ranger 7.

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
End of LotR: Rgr16. Archery combat style.
**

I never said he did gain a lot of levels over the years. He certainly
was one of the more accomplished Elves of Mirkwood (Elves seemed to
spend a lot of time just frolicking when they could). But if he was
involved in the clash at the end of the Second Age, he had to be pretty
tough. And Mirkwood was overrun with nasty monsters because Sauron's
stronghold was there during the Hobbit. He was at least Aragorn's
equal before the books (and Aragorn no spring chicken).

Post by Ian R Malcomson
While we're here on age, and to explain a little why most of the
characters have relatively big level-leaps over the course of LotR (9 in
my model, for Legolas, e.g.). It's something I call "concentrated
* Wander down a dungeon
* Return to city, spend cash, R&R, buy stuff
* Wander down a dungeon...
..etc..
Most won't earn XP during the "city" periods (in fact, if they're of a
mind to make magic items etc., they'll actually be spending XP

instead).

Post by Ian R Malcomson
If a dungeon expedition is a week, and R&R (to allow for making stuff
etc.) is a month, that's the equivalent of 10 dungeons per year or so.

That's your average D&D campaign. I do give EXP to PCs even during
downtime if they use it well (such as learning or training) and during
heavy RP sessions.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Now, assuming sewage gets into the air conditioning, armies go to war,
big weirdo flaming eye thing lights up... the model might be more "go
here, go here, go here, go here..........R&R? What's that?". Unless
there's a lull, PCs that are in the thick of it might experience 50
dungeon equivalents.
Anyway, I digress. With Legolas, my assumption is that he has

undergone

Post by Ian R Malcomson
a 1 dungeon equivalent per century or more.

Until Mirkwood was overrun by the "Necromancer" (Sauron), I'd concur he
didn't do too much for many centuries. After Sauron built a fortress
there things got pretty dangerous quick.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Théoden: Ranger 4/Fighter 8

...

Post by Ian R Malcomson
At death: Rgr4/Ftr11.
**

How would Theoden be a ranger? I don't get it. He'd be a fighter with
maxed out stats in riding, mounted fighting feats, and leadership.

That's wrapped up in my note on the Rohirrim as rangers, below.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Eomer: Ranger 7. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End of
LotR: Rgr12.
**

Again, I don't see how Eomer is a ranger. He knows the land but not to
the level like a true Dunedain ranger did.

That's more a question of where each put their skill points than class
choice. The Rohirrim ranger might throw them more into Ride,

Survival,

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Handle Animal, etc., while the Dunedain might bandy some into

Knowledge

Post by Ian R Malcomson
skills. Also, don't confuse the LotR definition of Ranger (as in
Aragorn and his pals), and the D&D class.

True enough but Aragorn had magical healing powers whereas the Rohirrim
didn't. At best, the Rohirrim would be rangers of the non-spellcasting
varient but even then I'd say they don't have enough feats to max out
mounted combat (I doubt they were all 15 level but most could fire from
a horse and were unparreled in combat with a horse).

Post by Ian R Malcomson
The Rohirrim were good trackers, had a good knowledge of their lands,
and had a connection with their horses - that's what makes them rangers,
IMO.

Post by Rump Ranger
Furthermore, he was a
master at mounted combat. Fighter fits him better for the feats. I
don't see him as CG but rather LG.

It's possible. Maybe taking away all magical powers and instead
subbing in a few mounted combat feats would make them work.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
On alignment... well, it's always difficult to assign alignments to
literary or real-life personalities that haven't been lifted from D&D
source, so that's a moot point we could argue ourselves in circles over
- so I'll leave that bottle of worms debate well alone.

Eomer still was a man of law. He went to prison on orders of Grima
instead of fleeing and one gets the idea he'd accept any sentence
handed down when he handed Theoden his sword in the beginning of TTT.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Eowyn: Ranger 5. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End of
LotR: Rgr10.
**

I fail to see ranger in her either. Fighter all the way with maybe
some prestige class called shieldmaiden.

Try as I might, it's real hard to fit LOTR characters into D&D classes.
Aragorn fits D&D ranger pretty well. The Rohirrim are hard to pick
because you're right that they are wilderness warriors.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Denethor II: Aristocrat 8. Gains no levels during the LotR. LN..
**

Device.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
From what I remember, Denethor was a Numenorean of the same stock that

Aragorn came from. The Numenoreans had special abilities above that of
normal men. They were "High" Men as opposed to the "Middle" Men which
inhabited most of Gondor and Rohan.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Why Rohirrim have Ranger levels: Rohirrim are largely nomadic

(Survival

Post by Ian R Malcomson
skill), and are attached to their horses (wild empathy). This makes
them "natural" rangers.
**

Granted, but in lieu of such a prestige class, IMO ranger suits them.

Or custom building the ranger class to include more mounted combat
feats and taking away the magical powers.

Post by Ian R Malcomson
Tom Bombadil (another possible Maia) could possibly be DvR 1-2.

Why

Post by Rump Ranger
ot

Tom Bambadil is an enigma. Tolkien left him that way on purpose.

Cutting out Bombadill also meant cutting out the important scene where
he gives the hobbits the special blades which make three major
appearances: on Weathertop when Frodo stabbed the Witch King in
desparation and the Nazgul appeared to fear them, Merry's strike on the
Witch King which layed him low and allowed Eowyn to make the killing
strike, and Pippen's strike on the troll which ended Book V. The
movies don't even bother to take their blades into account (despite how
special they were).

vince garcia

2005-01-08 11:45:21 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought out stats as to
major characters of Middle-Earth? As a purely mental experiment of
course. What would you say would be the stats of, say Sauron or the
Ringwraiths?
IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and several
levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using D&D
classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he can
heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster). Then
again, we never really see Gandalf's true power. His job was to
inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
(I'd say epic levels).
Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels. Something
along the lines of a fighter 4 (for weapon specialization) and like
12-16 levels of ranger. Throw in the leadership feat and include a
sub-race for humans (Numenoreans) and I'd say you can model him well.
Gimli- another no brainer, fighter who specialized in axes with a level
near 20. He seems pretty epic from the books.
Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd no
doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery skills
and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and Gimli).
Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the beginning of
the Hobbit he doesn't know much), a few levels of rogue (for his
adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he doesn't
cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above normal
hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him). Only
problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more expert
levels?
Samwise- starts off as commoner with gardening maxed out and gains a
few levels of fighter. He's capable of holding his own against Shelob
which has to count for something.
Merry and Pippen- both start as commoners and easily become fighters as
Merry becomes a Rider of the Rohirrim and Pippen becomes a knight of
Gondor.
Saruman is simliar to Gandalf with a permanent charm effect on his
voice and enchanter levels. An outsider all the way.
Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari. Sounds
like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
shapes, and in making friends with beasts).
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
Faramir is a tough one to classify. Possible ranger (because of his
knowledge of the woods of Ithilien), fighter (his great skill), or a
paladin (because he was so good and people saw it despite the movies
making him out to be a prick).
I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in any
case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?
What say you all?

I say Gandalf was a 5th level magic user

Kevin Lowe

2005-01-09 00:23:03 UTC

Post by vince garcia

Post by Rump Ranger
What say you all?

I say Gandalf was a 5th level magic user

Good to have you back, Mr Gygax.

Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.

Ubiquitous

2005-01-09 01:11:39 UTC

Post by Rump Ranger
Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought out stats as to
major characters of Middle-Earth?

No, I lost inteest in such silly things decades ago.

Rump Ranger

2005-01-09 01:59:07 UTC

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Rump Ranger
Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought out stats as to
major characters of Middle-Earth?

No, I lost inteest in such silly things decades ago.

And why should anyone care?

Aaron F. Bourque

2005-01-09 04:43:29 UTC

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Rump Ranger
Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought
out stats as to major characters of Middle-Earth?

No, I lost inteest in such silly things decades ago.

And why should anyone care?

Rump, meet Ubi.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; that was the greatest
sentence I will ever type . . .

--
God saves and man sins
But the tragedy comes when
He does both of them
Do not meddle in the affairs of fanboys, for they are obvious and quick to
anger.

Miracle

2005-01-09 01:26:32 UTC

Rump Ranger wrote:
<cut>

What about the Eagles? They sure aren't ordinary animals considering the
appear more than once as Deux in machina. Remember final battles from LOTR
and Hobbit, rescuing Gandalf (and party) again in both books , and even back
in the First Age when they saved Fingon and Maedhrost from Thangorodrim and
so on...

--
I've never heard words candy and only in the same sentence before

Rump Ranger

2005-01-09 02:01:35 UTC

Post by Miracle
<cut>
What about the Eagles? They sure aren't ordinary animals considering the
appear more than once as Deux in machina. Remember final battles from LOTR
and Hobbit, rescuing Gandalf (and party) again in both books , and even back
in the First Age when they saved Fingon and Maedhrost from

Thangorodrim and

Post by Miracle
so on...

Yeah, the giant Eagles are certainly special. Sorta like rocs or
something like that.
BTW- Barliman Butterbur could kick everyone's ass in ME.

Kevin Lowe

2005-01-09 08:19:10 UTC