Hey Doug - An Old Question

[Sharon]

Hey Doug -

I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back. Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
Anyway:

************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
Minnesota:

"I'm moving it for several reasons. In the past there have been
a
number of psychic forces hovering around the site. We've also
had
to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
southwestern United States." Klemp, "Be The Hu" (special
cultbook
for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
to HIs)

However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
So...you just wonder!! Also, there's the little matter of the temple
site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member. She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.

Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
them
about this whole matter. "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
the
Latino invasion: An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures. The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years. California has negative latino growth. And guess what! The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation? Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home? Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"? Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?

<giggle>

Hugs,

Sharon

************************************

So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court battle
over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet. And, since this I
also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in other eckbooks
without that 2nd initiate restriction.

Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but say
something entirely different to members, who I daresay were just as
innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally clueless about
all the cult's dirt. I believed The Word Of The Living Eck Master,
the Mahanta.

I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record. Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the dirt,
and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the card-carrying
mushrooms. Geez, he could've just said he was moving from AZ to MN
because Suggie told him too!!

SHARON

[Doug]

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back.   Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
      "I'm moving it for several reasons.  In the past there have been
a
      number of psychic forces hovering around the site.  We've also
had
      to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
      to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
      southwestern United States."   Klemp, "Be The Hu"  (special
cultbook
      for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
      to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
So...you just wonder!!   Also, there's the little matter of the temple
site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member.  She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
them
about this whole matter.   "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
the
Latino invasion:   An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures.  The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years.   California has negative latino growth. And guess what!   The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation?  Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home?  Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"?   Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court battle
over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet.   And, since this I
also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in other eckbooks
without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but say
something entirely different to members, who I daresay were just as
innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally clueless about
all the cult's dirt.  I believed The Word Of The Living Eck Master,
the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record.  Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the dirt,
and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the card-carrying
mushrooms.   Geez, he could've just said he was moving from AZ to MN
because Suggie told him too!!
SHARON

Sharon,

Every few years you show up here posting almost the exact same
questions with the exact same quotes.

And every year I answer you.

I get the feeling, after seeing this happen over and over, that what I
say won't make any difference, but I can see that you do like asking
the question.

But I'll give it one more try:

As Harold himself said, he had many reasons. I shared one of them. He
shared some others. I don't see anything strange about this. When
people make big changes, they usually have many reasons for doing so.
It often makes sense on a lot of different levels, when it is the
right thing to do. That was the impression I got from Harold, so I
guess I don't see any great mystery here.

Say hi to Alfie.

Take care.

Doug.

[TianYue]

Post by Doug

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back.   Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
      "I'm moving it for several reasons.  In the past there have been
a
      number of psychic forces hovering around the site.  We've also
had
      to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
      to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
      southwestern United States."   Klemp, "Be The Hu"  (special
cultbook
      for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
      to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
So...you just wonder!!   Also, there's the little matter of the temple
site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member.  She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
them
about this whole matter.   "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
the
Latino invasion:   An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures.  The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years.   California has negative latino growth. And guess what!   The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation?  Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home?  Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"?   Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court battle
over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet.   And, since this I
also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in other eckbooks
without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but say
something entirely different to members, who I daresay were just as
innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally clueless about
all the cult's dirt.  I believed The Word Of The Living Eck Master,
the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record.  Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the dirt,
and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the card-carrying
mushrooms.   Geez, he could've just said he was moving from AZ to MN
because Suggie told him too!!
SHARON

Sharon,
Every few years you show up here posting almost the exact same
questions with the exact same quotes.
And every year I answer you.
I get the feeling, after seeing this happen over and over, that what I
say won't make any difference, but I can see that you do like asking
the question.
As Harold himself said, he had many reasons. I shared one of them. He
shared some others. I don't see anything strange about this. When
people make big changes, they usually have many reasons for doing so.
It often makes sense on a lot of different levels, when it is the
right thing to do. That was the impression I got from Harold, so I
guess I don't see any great mystery here.
Say hi to Alfie.
Take care.
Doug.

Doug, I think it's more than obvious Sharon is asking the question
rhetorically to make a point. Did you really think she needs you to
answer the "question"? That your answer, layered as it is with
affected deep tones of presumed authority, would somehow settle the
matter with the finality, just because it is you, Doug Marmon, who
answered? You seem down right incredulous that your previous answers
didn't satisfy her. Your rather sanctimonious answers aren't really
addressing her comments. Considering the actual history, perhaps your
own understanding of the issue is laced with myths that Harold told?
Perhaps Sharon, in her question, is suggesting you should question
too?

Tianyue

[TianYue]

Post by TianYue

Post by Doug

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back.   Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
      "I'm moving it for several reasons.  In the past there have been
a
      number of psychic forces hovering around the site.  We've also
had
      to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
      to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
      southwestern United States."   Klemp, "Be The Hu"  (special
cultbook
      for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
      to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
So...you just wonder!!   Also, there's the little matter of the temple
site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member.  She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
them
about this whole matter.   "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
the
Latino invasion:   An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures.  The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years.   California has negative latino growth. And guess what!   The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation?  Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home?  Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"?   Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court battle
over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet.   And, since this I
also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in other eckbooks
without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but say
something entirely different to members, who I daresay were just as
innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally clueless about
all the cult's dirt.  I believed The Word Of The Living Eck Master,
the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record.  Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the dirt,
and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the card-carrying
mushrooms.   Geez, he could've just said he was moving from AZ to MN
because Suggie told him too!!
SHARON

Sharon,
Every few years you show up here posting almost the exact same
questions with the exact same quotes.
And every year I answer you.
I get the feeling, after seeing this happen over and over, that what I
say won't make any difference, but I can see that you do like asking
the question.
As Harold himself said, he had many reasons. I shared one of them. He
shared some others. I don't see anything strange about this. When
people make big changes, they usually have many reasons for doing so.
It often makes sense on a lot of different levels, when it is the
right thing to do. That was the impression I got from Harold, so I
guess I don't see any great mystery here.
Say hi to Alfie.
Take care.
Doug.

Doug, I think it's more than obvious Sharon is asking the question
rhetorically to make a point. Did you really think she needs you to
answer the "question"? That your answer, layered as it is with
affected deep tones of presumed authority, would somehow settle the
matter with the finality, just because it is you, Doug Marmon, who
answered? You seem down right incredulous that your previous answers
didn't satisfy her. Your rather sanctimonious answers aren't really
addressing her comments. Considering the actual history, perhaps your
own understanding of the issue is laced with myths that Harold told?
Perhaps Sharon, in her question, is suggesting you should question
too?
Tianyue

Meant to say, "with finality," not "with the finality."

Tianyue

[SharonBT]

Well, Doug, I don't think your answer is really an answer.

Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish the very best
information in the eckbooks, since that's where most members get the
most information. Perhaps he was transmitting "ecology & convention
facilities" on the inner, but I didn't get it. <gg>

Levels? So, on which levels do you think the different eckcuses fit?

Is it "higher" or "lower" to believe in evil psychic forces which
evidently threaten to overpower eckies who would gather in the area?
So maybe keeping eckies of all initiations away from Sedona was the
way "the master" was protecting them? You know, sort of the way your
ID card protects you from dying in your sleep from what might look
like a heart attack but is really because you were attacked by evil
witches & warlocks? (See: http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html
)

South American politics pushing people into overpopulated Mexico &
then into the US? I wonder what the real statistics are? I know
people from several South American countries who came to the US many
years ago. They skipped Mexico & came straight to the US, usually by
plane. One took a boat. Actually, a big ship. Maybe Klemp just
meant poor people on foot?

Oh, just had a thought - did Klemp tell you there weren't adequate
convention facilities before or after ekult lost the court fight for
Helen Frye's land? Hmmm....thinking of the timing, it must've been
afterwards since Darwin was in power when that went to court.

A thought.....my mind tends to wander....if Klemp is so concerned
about ecology, isn't messing with the weather affecting the ecology?
I remember reading The Word of THE ECK about how the move from CA to
MN changed the weather, and another story where sending out a lot of
pink initiation slips caused a heat wave in MN. I remember a winter
hot spell back in the 80's. I lost quite a few beautiful rose
bushes.

And evidently another reason the Klempster didn't mention to the
members, although I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned it to you
but you just didn't mention it, was non-profit tax laws or whatever
are better in MN than in either AZ or CA?

Is is better tax-wise to be a "religion" or just a non-profit? Just
wondering here...mind wandering.....now, many of us remember back when
it seemed like every newsletter was announcing a new "official blurb"
- "Spiritual Path", "Way of Life", "New-Age Religion", I kept losing
track & not being able to remember, but thought the "Religion of the
Light & Sound of God" was long & a bit awkward.

Actually, Doug, I *am* interested in an answer - but the kind of
"answer" you did with Twitch's plagiarism/literarytheft. You know,
one of your long squirmy soporific "whole truth" things!! Or what
you used to do with Lurk, keeping him off-track and away from the real
& serious issues of ekult's lies and deceptions, with your distracting
smooth-salesman "dialogues".

Hey, back when I was an eckie you were a really "high" initiate, RESA,
ESA, all that other stuff - you must be *really* HI-er now!!! Like,
a 10th or 11th?

How long have you & Klemp been buddies? Did you become friends when
he was married to Marge & working in the darkroom? Wow, that's
another thing I wondered about when I was an eckist, how "The Master"
kept the chelas balanced, but Marge couldn't handle his power flows so
they had to divorce? Yep, most wives have a problem with those
"power flows" when their husband is having an affair with one of the
office girls.

Okay, I've been buzzing around here long enough.....yes, I'll tell my
True Master you said hi!! Those were the days, weren't they!!!
A.R.E. used to be a lot more fun, and I had a rollicking good
time!!! <giggle>

SHARON

PS - Hey, Etznab - I just noticed, I'm "replying" from Google, right
up above between the "newsgroups" and text boxes you can "AddCc, Add
Followup-to, or Edit Subject". But I think if you change the subject
it'll always show up in the same thread. And hey, if anyone does
ever find really solid unbiased & accurate stuff on the Holocaust I'd
be interested, of course it frequently depends just on the person's
point of view, and it's not really that important once you get into
those really high numbers. I just wish the Jews & Palestinians would
learn how to share and just get along. Good grief, there's plenty of
desert over there that could be transformed into livable & productive
land & everyone could be happy!!

Post by Doug

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back.   Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
      "I'm moving it for several reasons.  In the past there have been
a
      number of psychic forces hovering around the site.  We've also
had
      to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
      to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
      southwestern United States."   Klemp, "Be The Hu"  (special
cultbook
      for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
      to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
So...you just wonder!!   Also, there's the little matter of the temple
site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member.  She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
them
about this whole matter.   "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
the
Latino invasion:   An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures.  The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years.   California has negative latino growth. And guess what!   The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation?  Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home?  Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"?   Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court battle
over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet.   And, since this I
also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in other eckbooks
without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but say
something entirely different to members, who I daresay were just as
innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally clueless about
all the cult's dirt.  I believed The Word Of The Living Eck Master,
the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record.  Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the dirt,
and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the card-carrying
mushrooms.   Geez, he could've just said he was moving from AZ to MN
because Suggie told him too!!
SHARON

Sharon,
Every few years you show up here posting almost the exact same
questions with the exact same quotes.
And every year I answer you.
I get the feeling, after seeing this happen over and over, that what I
say won't make any difference, but I can see that you do like asking
the question.
As Harold himself said, he had many reasons. I shared one of them. He
shared some others. I don't see anything strange about this. When
people make big changes, they usually have many reasons for doing so.
It often makes sense on a lot of different levels, when it is the
right thing to do. That was the impression I got from Harold, so I
guess I don't see any great mystery here.
Say hi to Alfie.
Take care.
Doug.

[Rich]

Dear "mind wandering" "not being able to remember" "buzzing around" having
"a rollicking good time" JW tainted,

Imagine if 'the ECK dropouts would learn how to share and just get along.
Good grief, there's plenty of
inner worlds that could be transformed into positive productive
consciousness where they could be happy!!'

It made me laugh to see you're http://bit.ly/184KEN ;-) and haven't lost
your enthusiasm for misrepresenting anything to do with Eckankar.

http://bit.ly/2NJb


` o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ | \
_/____|___\_
Rich~~~~(__________/~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~

Post by SharonBT
Well, Doug, I don't think your answer is really an answer.
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish the very best
information in the eckbooks, since that's where most members get the
most information. Perhaps he was transmitting "ecology & convention
facilities" on the inner, but I didn't get it. <gg>
Levels? So, on which levels do you think the different eckcuses fit?
Is it "higher" or "lower" to believe in evil psychic forces which
evidently threaten to overpower eckies who would gather in the area?
So maybe keeping eckies of all initiations away from Sedona was the
way "the master" was protecting them? You know, sort of the way your
ID card protects you from dying in your sleep from what might look
like a heart attack but is really because you were attacked by evil
http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html
)
South American politics pushing people into overpopulated Mexico &
then into the US? I wonder what the real statistics are? I know
people from several South American countries who came to the US many
years ago. They skipped Mexico & came straight to the US, usually by
plane. One took a boat. Actually, a big ship. Maybe Klemp just
meant poor people on foot?
Oh, just had a thought - did Klemp tell you there weren't adequate
convention facilities before or after ekult lost the court fight for
Helen Frye's land? Hmmm....thinking of the timing, it must've been
afterwards since Darwin was in power when that went to court.
A thought.....my mind tends to wander....if Klemp is so concerned
about ecology, isn't messing with the weather affecting the ecology?
I remember reading The Word of THE ECK about how the move from CA to
MN changed the weather, and another story where sending out a lot of
pink initiation slips caused a heat wave in MN. I remember a winter
hot spell back in the 80's. I lost quite a few beautiful rose
bushes.
And evidently another reason the Klempster didn't mention to the
members, although I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned it to you
but you just didn't mention it, was non-profit tax laws or whatever
are better in MN than in either AZ or CA?
Is is better tax-wise to be a "religion" or just a non-profit? Just
wondering here...mind wandering.....now, many of us remember back when
it seemed like every newsletter was announcing a new "official blurb"
- "Spiritual Path", "Way of Life", "New-Age Religion", I kept losing
track & not being able to remember, but thought the "Religion of the
Light & Sound of God" was long & a bit awkward.
Actually, Doug, I *am* interested in an answer - but the kind of
"answer" you did with Twitch's plagiarism/literarytheft. You know,
one of your long squirmy soporific "whole truth" things!! Or what
you used to do with Lurk, keeping him off-track and away from the real
& serious issues of ekult's lies and deceptions, with your distracting
smooth-salesman "dialogues".
Hey, back when I was an eckie you were a really "high" initiate, RESA,
ESA, all that other stuff - you must be *really* HI-er now!!! Like,
a 10th or 11th?
How long have you & Klemp been buddies? Did you become friends when
he was married to Marge & working in the darkroom? Wow, that's
another thing I wondered about when I was an eckist, how "The Master"
kept the chelas balanced, but Marge couldn't handle his power flows so
they had to divorce? Yep, most wives have a problem with those
"power flows" when their husband is having an affair with one of the
office girls.
Okay, I've been buzzing around here long enough.....yes, I'll tell my
True Master you said hi!! Those were the days, weren't they!!!
A.R.E. used to be a lot more fun, and I had a rollicking good
time!!! <giggle>
SHARON
PS - Hey, Etznab - I just noticed, I'm "replying" from Google, right
up above between the "newsgroups" and text boxes you can "AddCc, Add
Followup-to, or Edit Subject". But I think if you change the subject
it'll always show up in the same thread. And hey, if anyone does
ever find really solid unbiased & accurate stuff on the Holocaust I'd
be interested, of course it frequently depends just on the person's
point of view, and it's not really that important once you get into
those really high numbers. I just wish the Jews & Palestinians would
learn how to share and just get along. Good grief, there's plenty of
desert over there that could be transformed into livable & productive
land & everyone could be happy!!

Post by Doug

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back. Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
"I'm moving it for several reasons. In the past there have been
a
number of psychic forces hovering around the site. We've also
had
to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
southwestern United States." Klemp, "Be The Hu" (special
cultbook
for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn
up & they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building
plans. So...you just wonder!! Also, there's the little matter of
the temple site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member. She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will
after her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold
told them
about this whole matter. "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at
eckseminars. Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's
silly bullshit about the
Latino invasion: An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures. The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years. California has negative latino growth. And guess what! The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation? Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home? Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"? Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court
battle over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet. And,
since this I also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in
other eckbooks without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but
say something entirely different to members, who I daresay were
just as innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally
clueless about all the cult's dirt. I believed The Word Of The
Living Eck Master, the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record. Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the
dirt, and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the
card-carrying mushrooms. Geez, he could've just said he was moving
from AZ to MN because Suggie told him too!!
SHARON

Sharon,
Every few years you show up here posting almost the exact same
questions with the exact same quotes.
And every year I answer you.
I get the feeling, after seeing this happen over and over, that what
I say won't make any difference, but I can see that you do like
asking the question.
As Harold himself said, he had many reasons. I shared one of them. He
shared some others. I don't see anything strange about this. When
people make big changes, they usually have many reasons for doing so.
It often makes sense on a lot of different levels, when it is the
right thing to do. That was the impression I got from Harold, so I
guess I don't see any great mystery here.
Say hi to Alfie.
Take care.
Doug.

[Etznab]

Post by Rich
Dear "mind wandering" "not being able to remember" "buzzing around" having
"a rollicking good time" JW tainted,
Imagine if 'the ECK dropouts would learn how to share and just get along.
Good grief, there's plenty of
inner worlds that could be transformed into positive productive
consciousness where they could be happy!!'
It made me laugh to see you'rehttp://bit.ly/184KEN;-) and haven't lost
your enthusiasm for misrepresenting anything to do with Eckankar.
http://bit.ly/2NJb
`              o
               |
             ~/|
            _/ |\
            /  | \
          -/   |  \
         _/____|___\_
Rich~~~~(__________/~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~

Post by SharonBT
Well, Doug, I don't think your answer is really an answer.
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish the very best
information in the eckbooks, since that's where most members get the
most information.  Perhaps he was transmitting "ecology & convention
facilities" on the inner, but I didn't get it.  <gg>
Levels?   So, on which levels do you think the different eckcuses fit?
Is it "higher" or "lower" to believe in evil psychic forces which
evidently threaten to overpower eckies who would gather in the area?
So maybe keeping eckies of all initiations away from Sedona was the
way "the master" was protecting them?  You know, sort of the way your
ID card protects you from dying in your sleep from what might look
like a heart attack but is really because you were attacked by evil
http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html
)
South American politics pushing people into overpopulated Mexico &
then into the US?   I wonder what the real statistics are?   I know
people from several South American countries who came to the US many
years ago.  They skipped Mexico & came straight to the US, usually by
plane.  One took a boat.  Actually, a big ship.   Maybe Klemp just
meant poor people on foot?
Oh, just had a thought - did Klemp tell you there weren't adequate
convention facilities before or after ekult lost the court fight for
Helen Frye's land?   Hmmm....thinking of the timing, it must've been
afterwards since Darwin was in power when that went to court.
A thought.....my mind tends to wander....if Klemp is so concerned
about ecology, isn't messing with the weather affecting the ecology?
I remember reading The Word of THE ECK about how the move from CA to
MN changed the weather, and another story where sending out a lot of
pink initiation slips caused a heat wave in MN.   I remember a winter
hot spell back in the 80's.  I lost quite a few beautiful rose
bushes.
And evidently another reason the Klempster didn't mention to the
members, although I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned it to you
but you just didn't mention it, was non-profit tax laws or whatever
are better in MN than in either AZ or CA?
Is is better tax-wise to be a "religion" or just a non-profit?   Just
wondering here...mind wandering.....now, many of us remember back when
it seemed like every newsletter was announcing a new "official blurb"
- "Spiritual Path", "Way of Life", "New-Age Religion", I kept losing
track & not being able to remember, but thought the "Religion of the
Light & Sound of God" was long & a bit awkward.
Actually, Doug, I *am* interested in an answer - but the kind of
"answer" you did with Twitch's plagiarism/literarytheft.   You know,
one of your long squirmy soporific "whole truth" things!!   Or what
you used to do with Lurk, keeping him off-track and away from the real
& serious issues of ekult's lies and deceptions, with your distracting
smooth-salesman "dialogues".
Hey, back when I was an eckie you were a really "high" initiate, RESA,
ESA, all that other stuff - you must be *really* HI-er now!!!    Like,
a 10th or 11th?
How long have you & Klemp been buddies?   Did you become friends when
he was married to Marge & working in the darkroom?   Wow, that's
another thing I wondered about when I was an eckist, how "The Master"
kept the chelas balanced, but Marge couldn't handle his power flows so
they had to divorce?   Yep, most wives have a problem with those
"power flows" when their husband is having an affair with one of the
office girls.
Okay, I've been buzzing around here long enough.....yes, I'll tell my
True Master you said hi!!   Those were the days, weren't they!!!
A.R.E. used to be a lot more fun, and I had a rollicking good
time!!!    <giggle>
SHARON
PS - Hey, Etznab - I just noticed, I'm "replying" from Google, right
up above between the "newsgroups" and text boxes you can "AddCc, Add
Followup-to, or Edit Subject".   But I think if you change the subject
it'll always show up in the same thread.   And hey, if anyone does
ever find really solid unbiased & accurate stuff on the Holocaust I'd
be interested, of course it frequently depends just on the person's
point of view, and it's not really that important once you get into
those really high numbers.  I just wish the Jews & Palestinians would
learn how to share and just get along.  Good grief, there's plenty of
desert over there that could be transformed into livable & productive
land & everyone could be happy!!

Post by Doug

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back. Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
"I'm moving it for several reasons. In the past there have been
a
number of psychic forces hovering around the site. We've also
had
to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
southwestern United States." Klemp, "Be The Hu" (special
cultbook
for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn
up & they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building
plans. So...you just wonder!! Also, there's the little matter of
the temple site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member. She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will
after her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold
told them
about this whole matter. "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at
eckseminars. Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's
silly bullshit about the
Latino invasion: An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures. The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years. California has negative latino growth. And guess what! The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation? Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home? Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"? Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court
battle over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet. And,
since this I also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in
other eckbooks without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but
say something entirely different to members, who I daresay were
just as innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally
clueless about all the cult's dirt. I believed The Word Of The
Living Eck Master, the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record. Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the
dirt, and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the
card-carrying mushrooms. Geez, he could've just said he was moving
from AZ to MN because Suggie told him too!!
SHARON

Sharon,
Every few years you show up here posting almost the exact same
questions with the exact same quotes.
And every year I answer you.
I get the feeling, after seeing this happen over and over, that what
I say won't make any difference, but I can see that you do like
asking the question.
As Harold himself said, he had many reasons. I shared one of them. He
shared some others. I don't see anything strange about this. When
people make big changes, they usually have many reasons for doing so.
It often makes sense on a lot of different levels, when it is the
right thing to do. That was the impression I got from Harold, so I
guess I don't see any great mystery here.
Say hi to Alfie.
Take care.
Doug.

About the Hispanics migrating to U.S.A.

I was under the impression a lot of this
had to do with trade laws and agreements
that empowered large agri-businesses and
put generations of Mexican farmers out of
business because they couldn't compete.
In other words, generations of farmers lost
their jobs (and the farm) just like so many
Americans and small businesses losing
out to large mega-corporations with a lot
of money who can produce things on the
cheap.

On another point. Somebody might
care to look at census statistics and
what is going to happen to America in
the future without a lot of Mexicans &
young able bodies to work and take
care of them!!! America needs Doctors,
nurses and health care workers to care
for an aging population.

So look at the age of Hispanics and
the age of Americans by population &
figure who is going to have the largest
percentage (by country) of people able
to work in the future.

IMO, hispanics are generally good
workers. In fact I wouldn't doubt some
are better workers & have better family
values than a lot of Americans. Not to
mention their genes are probably more
native to America than most other pop-
ulations on the continent.

Maybe Harold wanted to be closer
to home (Wisconsin)? as one of the
reasons Eckankar was moved from
the West Coast to Minnesota?

Personally, I thought it was because
California might drop into the ocean -
at some point in the future. I remember
hearing about the "land" in Minnesota
and where they built the temple. How it
was described as some of the oldest &
most stable of land masses in America.
Does anybody else remember that Eck-
speak from years ago?

Etznab

[Etznab]

Post by Rich
Dear "mind wandering" "not being able to remember" "buzzing around" having
"a rollicking good time" JW tainted,
Imagine if 'the ECK dropouts would learn how to share and just get along.
Good grief, there's plenty of
inner worlds that could be transformed into positive productive
consciousness where they could be happy!!'
It made me laugh to see you'rehttp://bit.ly/184KEN;-) and haven't lost
your enthusiasm for misrepresenting anything to do with Eckankar.
http://bit.ly/2NJb
`              o
               |
             ~/|
            _/ |\
            /  | \
          -/   |  \
         _/____|___\_
Rich~~~~(__________/~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~

Post by SharonBT
Well, Doug, I don't think your answer is really an answer.
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish the very best
information in the eckbooks, since that's where most members get the
most information.  Perhaps he was transmitting "ecology & convention
facilities" on the inner, but I didn't get it.  <gg>
Levels?   So, on which levels do you think the different eckcuses fit?
Is it "higher" or "lower" to believe in evil psychic forces which
evidently threaten to overpower eckies who would gather in the area?
So maybe keeping eckies of all initiations away from Sedona was the
way "the master" was protecting them?  You know, sort of the way your
ID card protects you from dying in your sleep from what might look
like a heart attack but is really because you were attacked by evil
http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html
)
South American politics pushing people into overpopulated Mexico &
then into the US?   I wonder what the real statistics are?   I know
people from several South American countries who came to the US many
years ago.  They skipped Mexico & came straight to the US, usually by
plane.  One took a boat.  Actually, a big ship.   Maybe Klemp just
meant poor people on foot?
Oh, just had a thought - did Klemp tell you there weren't adequate
convention facilities before or after ekult lost the court fight for
Helen Frye's land?   Hmmm....thinking of the timing, it must've been
afterwards since Darwin was in power when that went to court.
A thought.....my mind tends to wander....if Klemp is so concerned
about ecology, isn't messing with the weather affecting the ecology?
I remember reading The Word of THE ECK about how the move from CA to
MN changed the weather, and another story where sending out a lot of
pink initiation slips caused a heat wave in MN.   I remember a winter
hot spell back in the 80's.  I lost quite a few beautiful rose
bushes.
And evidently another reason the Klempster didn't mention to the
members, although I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned it to you
but you just didn't mention it, was non-profit tax laws or whatever
are better in MN than in either AZ or CA?
Is is better tax-wise to be a "religion" or just a non-profit?   Just
wondering here...mind wandering.....now, many of us remember back when
it seemed like every newsletter was announcing a new "official blurb"
- "Spiritual Path", "Way of Life", "New-Age Religion", I kept losing
track & not being able to remember, but thought the "Religion of the
Light & Sound of God" was long & a bit awkward.
Actually, Doug, I *am* interested in an answer - but the kind of
"answer" you did with Twitch's plagiarism/literarytheft.   You know,
one of your long squirmy soporific "whole truth" things!!   Or what
you used to do with Lurk, keeping him off-track and away from the real
& serious issues of ekult's lies and deceptions, with your distracting
smooth-salesman "dialogues".
Hey, back when I was an eckie you were a really "high" initiate, RESA,
ESA, all that other stuff - you must be *really* HI-er now!!!    Like,
a 10th or 11th?
How long have you & Klemp been buddies?   Did you become friends when
he was married to Marge & working in the darkroom?   Wow, that's
another thing I wondered about when I was an eckist, how "The Master"
kept the chelas balanced, but Marge couldn't handle his power flows so
they had to divorce?   Yep, most wives have a problem with those
"power flows" when their husband is having an affair with one of the
office girls.
Okay, I've been buzzing around here long enough.....yes, I'll tell my
True Master you said hi!!   Those were the days, weren't they!!!
A.R.E. used to be a lot more fun, and I had a rollicking good
time!!!    <giggle>
SHARON
PS - Hey, Etznab - I just noticed, I'm "replying" from Google, right
up above between the "newsgroups" and text boxes you can "AddCc, Add
Followup-to, or Edit Subject".   But I think if you change the subject
it'll always show up in the same thread.   And hey, if anyone does
ever find really solid unbiased & accurate stuff on the Holocaust I'd
be interested, of course it frequently depends just on the person's
point of view, and it's not really that important once you get into
those really high numbers.  I just wish the Jews & Palestinians would
learn how to share and just get along.  Good grief, there's plenty of
desert over there that could be transformed into livable & productive
land & everyone could be happy!!

Post by Doug

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back. Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
"I'm moving it for several reasons. In the past there have been
a
number of psychic forces hovering around the site. We've also
had
to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
southwestern United States." Klemp, "Be The Hu" (special
cultbook
for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn
up & they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building
plans. So...you just wonder!! Also, there's the little matter of
the temple site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member. She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will
after her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold
told them
about this whole matter. "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at
eckseminars. Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's
silly bullshit about the
Latino invasion: An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures. The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years.Californiahas negative latino growth. And guess what! The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation? Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home? Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"? Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court
battle over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet. And,
since this I also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in
other eckbooks without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but
say something entirely different to members, who I daresay were
just as innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally
clueless about all the cult's dirt. I believed The Word Of The
Living Eck Master, the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record. Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the
dirt, and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the
card-carrying mushrooms. Geez, he could've just said he was moving
from AZ to MN because Suggie told him too!!
SHARON

Sharon,
Every few years you show up here posting almost the exact same
questions with the exact same quotes.
And every year I answer you.
I get the feeling, after seeing this happen over and over, that what
I say won't make any difference, but I can see that you do like
asking the question.
As Harold himself said, he had many reasons. I shared one of them. He
shared some others. I don't see anything strange about this. When
people make big changes, they usually have many reasons for doing so.
It often makes sense on a lot of different levels, when it is the
right thing to do. That was the impression I got from Harold, so I
guess I don't see any great mystery here.
Say hi to Alfie.
Take care.
Doug.

   About the Hispanics migrating to U.S.A.
   I was under the impression a lot of this
had to do with trade laws and agreements
that empowered large agri-businesses and
put generations of Mexican farmers out of
business because they couldn't compete.
In other words, generations of farmers lost
their jobs (and the farm) just like so many
Americans and small businesses losing
out to large mega-corporations with a lot
of money who can produce things on the
cheap.
   On another point. Somebody might
care to look at census statistics and
what is going to happen to America in
the future without a lot of Mexicans &
young able bodies to work and take
care of them!!! America needs Doctors,
nurses and health care workers to care
for an aging population.
   So look at the age of Hispanics and
the age of Americans by population &
figure who is going to have the largest
percentage (by country) of people able
to work in the future.
   IMO, hispanics are generally good
workers. In fact I wouldn't doubt some
are better workers & have better family
values than a lot of Americans. Not to
mention their genes are probably more
native to America than most other pop-
ulations on the continent.
   Maybe Harold wanted to be closer
to home (Wisconsin)? as one of the
reasons Eckankar was moved from
the West Coast to Minnesota?
   Personally, I thought it was becauseCaliforniamight drop into the ocean -
at some point in the future. I remember
hearing about the "land" in Minnesota
and where they built the temple. How it
was described as some of the oldest &
most stable of land masses in America.
Does anybody else remember that Eck-
speak from years ago?
Etznab

Maybe Harold wanted to be closer
to home (Wisconsin)? as one of the
reasons Eckankar was moved from
the West Coast to Minnesota?

Personally, I thought it was because
California might drop into the ocean -
at some point in the future. I remember
hearing about the "land" in Minnesota
and where they built the temple. How it
was described as some of the oldest &
most stable of land masses in America.
Does anybody else remember that Eck-
speak from years ago?

***********************************************

The day after posting that response, I read the
following article in my daily newspaper:

"Scientists have detected a spike in underground
rumblings on a section of California's San Andreas
Fault that produced a magnitude-7.8 earthquake in
1857. Some think the deep tremors suggest under-
ground stress may be building up faster than expected
and may indicate an increased risk of a major temblor."

[Based on: News Services article (San Andreas Fault
is rumbling), p. A21, S.L.P.D., 07/10/09]

Etznab

[Etznab]

Post by SharonBT
Well, Doug, I don't think your answer is really an answer.
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish the very best
information in the eckbooks, since that's where most members get the
most information.  Perhaps he was transmitting "ecology & convention
facilities" on the inner, but I didn't get it.  <gg>
Levels?   So, on which levels do you think the different eckcuses fit?
Is it "higher" or "lower" to believe in evil psychic forces which
evidently threaten to overpower eckies who would gather in the area?
So maybe keeping eckies of all initiations away from Sedona was the
way "the master" was protecting them?  You know, sort of the way your
ID card protects you from dying in your sleep from what might look
like a heart attack but is really because you were attacked by evil
witches & warlocks?  (See:  http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html
)
South American politics pushing people into overpopulated Mexico &
then into the US?   I wonder what the real statistics are?   I know
people from several South American countries who came to the US many
years ago.  They skipped Mexico & came straight to the US, usually by
plane.  One took a boat.  Actually, a big ship.   Maybe Klemp just
meant poor people on foot?
Oh, just had a thought - did Klemp tell you there weren't adequate
convention facilities before or after ekult lost the court fight for
Helen Frye's land?   Hmmm....thinking of the timing, it must've been
afterwards since Darwin was in power when that went to court.
A thought.....my mind tends to wander....if Klemp is so concerned
about ecology, isn't messing with the weather affecting the ecology?
I remember reading The Word of THE ECK about how the move from CA to
MN changed the weather, and another story where sending out a lot of
pink initiation slips caused a heat wave in MN.   I remember a winter
hot spell back in the 80's.  I lost quite a few beautiful rose
bushes.
And evidently another reason the Klempster didn't mention to the
members, although I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned it to you
but you just didn't mention it, was non-profit tax laws or whatever
are better in MN than in either AZ or CA?
Is is better tax-wise to be a "religion" or just a non-profit?   Just
wondering here...mind wandering.....now, many of us remember back when
it seemed like every newsletter was announcing a new "official blurb"
- "Spiritual Path", "Way of Life", "New-Age Religion", I kept losing
track & not being able to remember, but thought the "Religion of the
Light & Sound of God" was long & a bit awkward.
Actually, Doug, I *am* interested in an answer - but the kind of
"answer" you did with Twitch's plagiarism/literarytheft.   You know,
one of your long squirmy soporific "whole truth" things!!   Or what
you used to do with Lurk, keeping him off-track and away from the real
& serious issues of ekult's lies and deceptions, with your distracting
smooth-salesman "dialogues".
Hey, back when I was an eckie you were a really "high" initiate, RESA,
ESA, all that other stuff - you must be *really* HI-er now!!!    Like,
a 10th or 11th?
How long have you & Klemp been buddies?   Did you become friends when
he was married to Marge & working in the darkroom?   Wow, that's
another thing I wondered about when I was an eckist, how "The Master"
kept the chelas balanced, but Marge couldn't handle his power flows so
they had to divorce?   Yep, most wives have a problem with those
"power flows" when their husband is having an affair with one of the
office girls.
Okay, I've been buzzing around here long enough.....yes, I'll tell my
True Master you said hi!!   Those were the days, weren't they!!!
A.R.E. used to be a lot more fun, and I had a rollicking good
time!!!    <giggle>
SHARON
PS - Hey, Etznab - I just noticed, I'm "replying" from Google, right
up above between the "newsgroups" and text boxes you can "AddCc, Add
Followup-to, or Edit Subject".   But I think if you change the subject
it'll always show up in the same thread.   And hey, if anyone does
ever find really solid unbiased & accurate stuff on the Holocaust I'd
be interested, of course it frequently depends just on the person's
point of view, and it's not really that important once you get into
those really high numbers.  I just wish the Jews & Palestinians would
learn how to share and just get along.  Good grief, there's plenty of
desert over there that could be transformed into livable & productive
land & everyone could be happy!!

Post by Doug

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back.   Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
      "I'm moving it for several reasons.  In the past there have been
a
      number of psychic forces hovering around the site.  We've also
had
      to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
      to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
      southwestern United States."   Klemp, "Be The Hu"  (special
cultbook
      for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
      to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
So...you just wonder!!   Also, there's the little matter of the temple
site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member.  She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
them
about this whole matter.   "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
the
Latino invasion:   An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures.  The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years.   California has negative latino growth. And guess what!   The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation?  Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home?  Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"?   Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court battle
over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet.   And, since this I
also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in other eckbooks
without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but say
something entirely different to members, who I daresay were just as
innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally clueless about
all the cult's dirt.  I believed The Word Of The Living Eck Master,
the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record.  Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the dirt,
and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the card-carrying
mushrooms.   Geez, he could've just said he was moving from AZ to MN
because Suggie told him too!!
SHARON

Sharon,
Every few years you show up here posting almost the exact same
questions with the exact same quotes.
And every year I answer you.
I get the feeling, after seeing this happen over and over, that what I
say won't make any difference, but I can see that you do like asking
the question.
As Harold himself said, he had many reasons. I shared one of them. He
shared some others. I don't see anything strange about this. When
people make big changes, they usually have many reasons for doing so.
It often makes sense on a lot of different levels, when it is the
right thing to do. That was the impression I got from Harold, so I
guess I don't see any great mystery here.
Say hi to Alfie.
Take care.
Doug.

Thanks for pointing that out, Sharon.

I will have to do some exploring with
regard to those options.

Etznab

[AF59]

ok,
Ex Eckist here, I read these posts kind of randomly
I am wondering why there is so much hostility Sharon?

Again, I am EX Eckist, but I don't feel the bitterness that you do.
I am disillusioned , disturbed, kind of without direction, and trying
to sort it all out, but I am not this angry.
What really happened that was so bad to make you feel this way?

I am not slamming you here, that is not my intention, but when it's
time to move on, isn't it just time to move on?

Didn't Eckankar serve a purpose for you, to get you to where you are
now? Wouldn't that be kind of a good thing?

I am a pretty simple person of thought, please forgive my naivete in
this matter.

Andy

Post by SharonBT
Well, Doug, I don't think your answer is really an answer.
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish the very best
information in the eckbooks, since that's where most members get the
most information.  Perhaps he was transmitting "ecology & convention
facilities" on the inner, but I didn't get it.  <gg>
Levels?   So, on which levels do you think the different eckcuses fit?
Is it "higher" or "lower" to believe in evil psychic forces which
evidently threaten to overpower eckies who would gather in the area?
So maybe keeping eckies of all initiations away from Sedona was the
way "the master" was protecting them?  You know, sort of the way your
ID card protects you from dying in your sleep from what might look
like a heart attack but is really because you were attacked by evil
witches & warlocks?  (See:  http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html
)
South American politics pushing people into overpopulated Mexico &
then into the US?   I wonder what the real statistics are?   I know
people from several South American countries who came to the US many
years ago.  They skipped Mexico & came straight to the US, usually by
plane.  One took a boat.  Actually, a big ship.   Maybe Klemp just
meant poor people on foot?
Oh, just had a thought - did Klemp tell you there weren't adequate
convention facilities before or after ekult lost the court fight for
Helen Frye's land?   Hmmm....thinking of the timing, it must've been
afterwards since Darwin was in power when that went to court.
A thought.....my mind tends to wander....if Klemp is so concerned
about ecology, isn't messing with the weather affecting the ecology?
I remember reading The Word of THE ECK about how the move from CA to
MN changed the weather, and another story where sending out a lot of
pink initiation slips caused a heat wave in MN.   I remember a winter
hot spell back in the 80's.  I lost quite a few beautiful rose
bushes.
And evidently another reason the Klempster didn't mention to the
members, although I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned it to you
but you just didn't mention it, was non-profit tax laws or whatever
are better in MN than in either AZ or CA?
Is is better tax-wise to be a "religion" or just a non-profit?   Just
wondering here...mind wandering.....now, many of us remember back when
it seemed like every newsletter was announcing a new "official blurb"
- "Spiritual Path", "Way of Life", "New-Age Religion", I kept losing
track & not being able to remember, but thought the "Religion of the
Light & Sound of God" was long & a bit awkward.
Actually, Doug, I *am* interested in an answer - but the kind of
"answer" you did with Twitch's plagiarism/literarytheft.   You know,
one of your long squirmy soporific "whole truth" things!!   Or what
you used to do with Lurk, keeping him off-track and away from the real
& serious issues of ekult's lies and deceptions, with your distracting
smooth-salesman "dialogues".
Hey, back when I was an eckie you were a really "high" initiate, RESA,
ESA, all that other stuff - you must be *really* HI-er now!!!    Like,
a 10th or 11th?
How long have you & Klemp been buddies?   Did you become friends when
he was married to Marge & working in the darkroom?   Wow, that's
another thing I wondered about when I was an eckist, how "The Master"
kept the chelas balanced, but Marge couldn't handle his power flows so
they had to divorce?   Yep, most wives have a problem with those
"power flows" when their husband is having an affair with one of the
office girls.
Okay, I've been buzzing around here long enough.....yes, I'll tell my
True Master you said hi!!   Those were the days, weren't they!!!
A.R.E. used to be a lot more fun, and I had a rollicking good
time!!!    <giggle>
SHARON
PS - Hey, Etznab - I just noticed, I'm "replying" from Google, right
up above between the "newsgroups" and text boxes you can "AddCc, Add
Followup-to, or Edit Subject".   But I think if you change the subject
it'll always show up in the same thread.   And hey, if anyone does
ever find really solid unbiased & accurate stuff on the Holocaust I'd
be interested, of course it frequently depends just on the person's
point of view, and it's not really that important once you get into
those really high numbers.  I just wish the Jews & Palestinians would
learn how to share and just get along.  Good grief, there's plenty of
desert over there that could be transformed into livable & productive
land & everyone could be happy!!

Post by Doug

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back.   Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
      "I'm moving it for several reasons.  In the past there have been
a
      number of psychic forces hovering around the site.  We've also
had
      to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
      to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
      southwestern United States."   Klemp, "Be The Hu"  (special
cultbook
      for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
      to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
So...you just wonder!!   Also, there's the little matter of the temple
site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member.  She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
them
about this whole matter.   "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
the
Latino invasion:   An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures.  The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years.   California has negative latino growth. And guess what!   The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation?  Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home?  Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"?   Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court battle
over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet.   And, since this I
also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in other eckbooks
without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but say
something entirely different to members, who I daresay were just as
innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally clueless about
all the cult's dirt.  I believed The Word Of The Living Eck Master,
the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record.  Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the dirt,
and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the card-carrying
mushrooms.   Geez, he could've just said he was moving from AZ to MN
because Suggie told him too!!
SHARON

Sharon,
Every few years you show up here posting almost the exact same
questions with the exact same quotes.
And every year I answer you.
I get the feeling, after seeing this happen over and over, that what I
say won't make any difference, but I can see that you do like asking
the question.
As Harold himself said, he had many reasons. I shared one of them. He
shared some others. I don't see anything strange about this. When
people make big changes, they usually have many reasons for doing so.
It often makes sense on a lot of different levels, when it is the
right thing to do. That was the impression I got from Harold, so I
guess I don't see any great mystery here.
Say hi to Alfie.
Take care.
Doug.

[Kinpa]

Post by AF59
ok,
Ex Eckist here, I read these posts kind of randomly
I am wondering why there is so much hostility Sharon?
Again, I am EX Eckist, but I don't feel the bitterness that you do.
I am disillusioned , disturbed, kind of without direction, and trying
to sort it all out, but I am not this angry.
What really happened that was so bad to make you feel this way?
I am not slamming you here, that is not my intention, but when it's
time to move on, isn't it just time to move on?
Didn't Eckankar serve a purpose for you, to get you to where you are
now?  Wouldn't that be kind of a good thing?
I am a pretty simple person of thought, please forgive my naivete in
this matter.
Andy

Post by SharonBT
Well, Doug, I don't think your answer is really an answer.
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish the very best
information in the eckbooks, since that's where most members get the
most information.  Perhaps he was transmitting "ecology & convention
facilities" on the inner, but I didn't get it.  <gg>
Levels?   So, on which levels do you think the different eckcuses fit?
Is it "higher" or "lower" to believe in evil psychic forces which
evidently threaten to overpower eckies who would gather in the area?
So maybe keeping eckies of all initiations away from Sedona was the
way "the master" was protecting them?  You know, sort of the way your
ID card protects you from dying in your sleep from what might look
like a heart attack but is really because you were attacked by evil
witches & warlocks?  (See:  http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html
)
South American politics pushing people into overpopulated Mexico &
then into the US?   I wonder what the real statistics are?   I know
people from several South American countries who came to the US many
years ago.  They skipped Mexico & came straight to the US, usually by
plane.  One took a boat.  Actually, a big ship.   Maybe Klemp just
meant poor people on foot?
Oh, just had a thought - did Klemp tell you there weren't adequate
convention facilities before or after ekult lost the court fight for
Helen Frye's land?   Hmmm....thinking of the timing, it must've been
afterwards since Darwin was in power when that went to court.
A thought.....my mind tends to wander....if Klemp is so concerned
about ecology, isn't messing with the weather affecting the ecology?
I remember reading The Word of THE ECK about how the move from CA to
MN changed the weather, and another story where sending out a lot of
pink initiation slips caused a heat wave in MN.   I remember a winter
hot spell back in the 80's.  I lost quite a few beautiful rose
bushes.
And evidently another reason the Klempster didn't mention to the
members, although I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned it to you
but you just didn't mention it, was non-profit tax laws or whatever
are better in MN than in either AZ or CA?
Is is better tax-wise to be a "religion" or just a non-profit?   Just
wondering here...mind wandering.....now, many of us remember back when
it seemed like every newsletter was announcing a new "official blurb"
- "Spiritual Path", "Way of Life", "New-Age Religion", I kept losing
track & not being able to remember, but thought the "Religion of the
Light & Sound of God" was long & a bit awkward.
Actually, Doug, I *am* interested in an answer - but the kind of
"answer" you did with Twitch's plagiarism/literarytheft.   You know,
one of your long squirmy soporific "whole truth" things!!   Or what
you used to do with Lurk, keeping him off-track and away from the real
& serious issues of ekult's lies and deceptions, with your distracting
smooth-salesman "dialogues".
Hey, back when I was an eckie you were a really "high" initiate, RESA,
ESA, all that other stuff - you must be *really* HI-er now!!!    Like,
a 10th or 11th?
How long have you & Klemp been buddies?   Did you become friends when
he was married to Marge & working in the darkroom?   Wow, that's
another thing I wondered about when I was an eckist, how "The Master"
kept the chelas balanced, but Marge couldn't handle his power flows so
they had to divorce?   Yep, most wives have a problem with those
"power flows" when their husband is having an affair with one of the
office girls.
Okay, I've been buzzing around here long enough.....yes, I'll tell my
True Master you said hi!!   Those were the days, weren't they!!!
A.R.E. used to be a lot more fun, and I had a rollicking good
time!!!    <giggle>
SHARON
PS - Hey, Etznab - I just noticed, I'm "replying" from Google, right
up above between the "newsgroups" and text boxes you can "AddCc, Add
Followup-to, or Edit Subject".   But I think if you change the subject
it'll always show up in the same thread.   And hey, if anyone does
ever find really solid unbiased & accurate stuff on the Holocaust I'd
be interested, of course it frequently depends just on the person's
point of view, and it's not really that important once you get into
those really high numbers.  I just wish the Jews & Palestinians would
learn how to share and just get along.  Good grief, there's plenty of
desert over there that could be transformed into livable & productive
land & everyone could be happy!!

Post by Doug

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back.   Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
      "I'm moving it for several reasons.  In the past there have been
a
      number of psychic forces hovering around the site.  We've also
had
      to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
      to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
      southwestern United States."   Klemp, "Be The Hu"  (special
cultbook
      for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
      to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
So...you just wonder!!   Also, there's the little matter of the temple
site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member.  She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
them
about this whole matter.   "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
the
Latino invasion:   An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures.  The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years.   California has negative latino growth. And guess what!   The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation?  Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home?  Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"?   Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court battle
over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet.   And, since this I
also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in other eckbooks
without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but say
something entirely different to members, who I daresay were just as
innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally clueless about
all the cult's dirt.  I believed The Word Of The Living Eck Master,
the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record.  Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the dirt,
and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the card-carrying
mushrooms.   Geez, he could've just said he was moving from AZ to MN
because Suggie told him too!!
SHARON

Sharon,
Every few years you show up here posting almost the exact same
questions with the exact same quotes.
And every year I answer you.
I get the feeling, after seeing this happen over and over, that what I
say won't make any difference, but I can see that you do like asking
the question.
As Harold himself said, he had many reasons. I shared one of them. He
shared some others. I don't see anything strange about this. When
people make big changes, they usually have many reasons for doing so.
It often makes sense on a lot of different levels, when it is the
right thing to do. That was

...
read more »

there is much wisdom in what you have said, not simple at all...

[TianYue]

Post by AF59
ok,
Ex Eckist here, I read these posts kind of randomly
I am wondering why there is so much hostility Sharon?
Again, I am EX Eckist, but I don't feel the bitterness that you do.
I am disillusioned , disturbed, kind of without direction, and trying
to sort it all out, but I am not this angry.
What really happened that was so bad to make you feel this way?
I am not slamming you here, that is not my intention, but when it's
time to move on, isn't it just time to move on?
Didn't Eckankar serve a purpose for you, to get you to where you are
now?  Wouldn't that be kind of a good thing?
I am a pretty simple person of thought, please forgive my naivete in
this matter.
Andy

The "move on" notion is usually parroted by members of Eckankar. Can
you tell us why you left? PLease answer, I seriously would like to
know. And how long were you a member, Andy?

When I first left, I suppose I may have made comments like yours, but
over time, I began to realize just how far reaching and irresponsible
the lies of Eckankar really are. It sometimes takes time (perhaps
years) before all the personal ramifications become apparent. It isn't
just some benign path with a few harmless fictions. I was a member
since I was 16, and was a member for 28 years. I was a sixth initiate,
for what it's worth. If you want to know why people feel more strongly
than you, read some books on cults, and cult psychology.

Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by SharonBT
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish the very best
information in the eckbooks, since that's where most members get the
most information.  Perhaps he was transmitting "ecology & convention
facilities" on the inner, but I didn't get it.  <gg>
Levels?   So, on which levels do you think the different eckcuses fit?
Is it "higher" or "lower" to believe in evil psychic forces which
evidently threaten to overpower eckies who would gather in the area?
So maybe keeping eckies of all initiations away from Sedona was the
way "the master" was protecting them?  You know, sort of the way your
ID card protects you from dying in your sleep from what might look
like a heart attack but is really because you were attacked by evil
witches & warlocks?  (See:  http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html
)
South American politics pushing people into overpopulated Mexico &
then into the US?   I wonder what the real statistics are?   I know
people from several South American countries who came to the US many
years ago.  They skipped Mexico & came straight to the US, usually by
plane.  One took a boat.  Actually, a big ship.   Maybe Klemp just
meant poor people on foot?
Oh, just had a thought - did Klemp tell you there weren't adequate
convention facilities before or after ekult lost the court fight for
Helen Frye's land?   Hmmm....thinking of the timing, it must've been
afterwards since Darwin was in power when that went to court.
A thought.....my mind tends to wander....if Klemp is so concerned
about ecology, isn't messing with the weather affecting the ecology?
I remember reading The Word of THE ECK about how the move from CA to
MN changed the weather, and another story where sending out a lot of
pink initiation slips caused a heat wave in MN.   I remember a winter
hot spell back in the 80's.  I lost quite a few beautiful rose
bushes.
And evidently another reason the Klempster didn't mention to the
members, although I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned it to you
but you just didn't mention it, was non-profit tax laws or whatever
are better in MN than in either AZ or CA?
Is is better tax-wise to be a "religion" or just a non-profit?   Just
wondering here...mind wandering.....now, many of us remember back when
it seemed like every newsletter was announcing a new "official blurb"
- "Spiritual Path", "Way of Life", "New-Age Religion", I kept losing
track & not being able to remember, but thought the "Religion of the
Light & Sound of God" was long & a bit awkward.
Actually, Doug, I *am* interested in an answer - but the kind of
"answer" you did with Twitch's plagiarism/literarytheft.   You know,
one of your long squirmy soporific "whole truth" things!!   Or what
you used to do with Lurk, keeping him off-track and away from the real
& serious issues of ekult's lies and deceptions, with your distracting
smooth-salesman "dialogues".
Hey, back when I was an eckie you were a really "high" initiate, RESA,
ESA, all that other stuff - you must be *really* HI-er now!!!    Like,
a 10th or 11th?
How long have you & Klemp been buddies?   Did you become friends when
he was married to Marge & working in the darkroom?   Wow, that's
another thing I wondered about when I was an eckist, how "The Master"
kept the chelas balanced, but Marge couldn't handle his power flows so
they had to divorce?   Yep, most wives have a problem with those
"power flows" when their husband is having an affair with one of the
office girls.
Okay, I've been buzzing around here long enough.....yes, I'll tell my
True Master you said hi!!   Those were the days, weren't they!!!
A.R.E. used to be a lot more fun, and I had a rollicking good
time!!!    <giggle>
SHARON
PS - Hey, Etznab - I just noticed, I'm "replying" from Google, right
up above between the "newsgroups" and text boxes you can "AddCc, Add
Followup-to, or Edit Subject".   But I think if you change the subject
it'll always show up in the same thread.   And hey, if anyone does
ever find really solid unbiased & accurate stuff on the Holocaust I'd
be interested, of course it frequently depends just on the person's
point of view, and it's not really that important once you get into
those really high numbers.  I just wish the Jews & Palestinians would
learn how to share and just get along.  Good grief, there's plenty of
desert over there that could be transformed into livable & productive
land & everyone could be happy!!

Post by Doug

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back.   Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
      "I'm moving it for several reasons.  In the past there have been
a
      number of psychic forces hovering around the site.  We've also
had
      to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
      to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
      southwestern United States."   Klemp, "Be The Hu"  (special
cultbook
      for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
      to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
So...you just wonder!!   Also, there's the little matter of the temple
site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member.  She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
them
about this whole matter.   "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
the
Latino invasion:   An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures.  The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years.   California has negative latino growth. And guess what!   The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation?  Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home?  Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"?   Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court battle
over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet.   And, since this I
also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in other eckbooks
without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but say
something entirely different to members, who I daresay were just as
innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally clueless about
all the cult's dirt.  I believed The Word Of The Living Eck Master,
the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record.  Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the dirt,
and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the card-carrying
mushrooms.   Geez, he could've just said he was moving from AZ to MN
because Suggie told him too!!
SHARON

Sharon,
Every few years you show up here posting almost the exact same
questions with the exact same quotes.
And every year I answer you.
I get the feeling, after seeing this happen over and over, that what I
say won't make any difference, but I can see that you do like asking
the question.
As Harold himself said, he had many reasons. I shared one of them. He
shared some others. I don't see anything strange about this. When
people make big changes, they usually have many reasons for doing so.
It often makes sense on a lot of different levels, when it is the
right thing to do. That was the impression I got from Harold, so I
guess I don't see any great mystery here.
Say hi to Alfie.
Take care.
Doug.

[AF59]

Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.
My questions are sincere and not meant to offend, and the fact that I
have said very little in here for the last, I don't know many, years
hopefully would convey to you that I am not here to
joust. I was just curious. I guess I could go back and read all the
threads to find out, but I was just curious.

I left Eckankar for many reasons, one of which I was disillusioned
with the way Eckankar had gone. It was feeling too much like
Christianity in it's direction. I didn't all of a sudden pack up and
leave, I dwindled in my activities. Also, I felt it was more than a
bit me, the reason for leaving, than it was anything else, it wasn't
working for me. I wasn't motivated to live the lifestyle that I felt
it was calling for. I am not a religious person, I can't lead a
religious lifestyle. Is that a lack of discipline? perhaps.

I was in Eckankar from 1974 till 2004(ish) initiation level, I guess
as you said, for "what it's worth" not worth mentioning. I know that
I couldn't regurgitate the "gospel" according to so and so and feel
sincere about it. I was playing a part that I didn't feel comfortable
with completely. Kind of felt like what Paul was telling us not to
do... it is quite evident that a lot of Eckist do exactly that. The
coined responses to key questions, as if they had no minds of their
own, they just know the appropriate response for the specific
question. I am not slamming anyone on that, it's the same thing that
anyone in any religion does. They know they answer according to the
preacher, priest, guru, etc.

I said once in here, that I am not a "mental" person so filling my
head with quotes and verses was not my thing. I was being groomed for
something I didn't want to do.

I actually was more of a musician. In fact someone told me that one
of my songs, on one of the CDs is still played at the seminars...
interesting.

I don't feel anger toward Eckankar, I was 14 when I started, perhaps
12 at my introduction, through my Dad, my first initiation was truly
my first spiritual experience of leaving the body (which I don't feel
has to be a spiritual experience anymore-- but that's another
discussion) Darwin was the Master at that time it was quite the real
experience for me. I understand more clearly all of that now.

Anyway reading all of the posts here and reading Lane's stuff and some
other's is somewhat new to me, so I have questions about all of that.
I can now see clearly how Paul started Eckankar and perhaps a little
bit about his intentions. I confess that I am reading Doug's book
right now. I like the historical perspective, I am taking to heart
that he is definitely coming at it with an Eckist's perspective. I
accept that, and respect him for that. I actually appreciate the book
because I feel I am able to balance out a lot of things while reading
this. Balancing from both sides to be quite honest.

Ok that is where I am coming from.

I have not read about Cults or anything of that nature, I don't
clearly know what you are referring to, but isn't any religion guilty
of putting out information and only information that they feel is what
is "best" for their followers. I tend to think of all religions as a
cult.

I was not going to ramble here, and here I am doing that... I was
about to go on, but I'll stop here.

Andy

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
ok,
Ex Eckist here, I read these posts kind of randomly
I am wondering why there is so much hostility Sharon?
Again, I am EX Eckist, but I don't feel the bitterness that you do.
I am disillusioned , disturbed, kind of without direction, and trying
to sort it all out, but I am not this angry.
What really happened that was so bad to make you feel this way?
I am not slamming you here, that is not my intention, but when it's
time to move on, isn't it just time to move on?
Didn't Eckankar serve a purpose for you, to get you to where you are
now?  Wouldn't that be kind of a good thing?
I am a pretty simple person of thought, please forgive my naivete in
this matter.
Andy

The "move on" notion is usually parroted by members of Eckankar. Can
you tell us why you left? PLease answer, I seriously would like to
know. And how long were you a member, Andy?
When I first left, I suppose I may have made comments like yours, but
over time, I began to realize just how far reaching and irresponsible
the lies of Eckankar really are. It sometimes takes time (perhaps
years) before all the personal ramifications become apparent. It isn't
just some benign path with a few harmless fictions. I was a member
since I was 16, and was a member for 28 years. I was a sixth initiate,
for what it's worth. If you want to know why people feel more strongly
than you, read some books on cults, and cult psychology.
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by SharonBT
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish the very best
information in the eckbooks, since that's where most members get the
most information.  Perhaps he was transmitting "ecology & convention
facilities" on the inner, but I didn't get it.  <gg>
Levels?   So, on which levels do you think the different eckcuses fit?
Is it "higher" or "lower" to believe in evil psychic forces which
evidently threaten to overpower eckies who would gather in the area?
So maybe keeping eckies of all initiations away from Sedona was the
way "the master" was protecting them?  You know, sort of the way your
ID card protects you from dying in your sleep from what might look
like a heart attack but is really because you were attacked by evil
witches & warlocks?  (See:  http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html
)
South American politics pushing people into overpopulated Mexico &
then into the US?   I wonder what the real statistics are?   I know
people from several South American countries who came to the US many
years ago.  They skipped Mexico & came straight to the US, usually by
plane.  One took a boat.  Actually, a big ship.   Maybe Klemp just
meant poor people on foot?
Oh, just had a thought - did Klemp tell you there weren't adequate
convention facilities before or after ekult lost the court fight for
Helen Frye's land?   Hmmm....thinking of the timing, it must've been
afterwards since Darwin was in power when that went to court.
A thought.....my mind tends to wander....if Klemp is so concerned
about ecology, isn't messing with the weather affecting the ecology?
I remember reading The Word of THE ECK about how the move from CA to
MN changed the weather, and another story where sending out a lot of
pink initiation slips caused a heat wave in MN.   I remember a winter
hot spell back in the 80's.  I lost quite a few beautiful rose
bushes.
And evidently another reason the Klempster didn't mention to the
members, although I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned it to you
but you just didn't mention it, was non-profit tax laws or whatever
are better in MN than in either AZ or CA?
Is is better tax-wise to be a "religion" or just a non-profit?   Just
wondering here...mind wandering.....now, many of us remember back when
it seemed like every newsletter was announcing a new "official blurb"
- "Spiritual Path", "Way of Life", "New-Age Religion", I kept losing
track & not being able to remember, but thought the "Religion of the
Light & Sound of God" was long & a bit awkward.
Actually, Doug, I *am* interested in an answer - but the kind of
"answer" you did with Twitch's plagiarism/literarytheft.   You know,
one of your long squirmy soporific "whole truth" things!!   Or what
you used to do with Lurk, keeping him off-track and away from the real
& serious issues of ekult's lies and deceptions, with your distracting
smooth-salesman "dialogues".
Hey, back when I was an eckie you were a really "high" initiate, RESA,
ESA, all that other stuff - you must be *really* HI-er now!!!    Like,
a 10th or 11th?
How long have you & Klemp been buddies?   Did you become friends when
he was married to Marge & working in the darkroom?   Wow, that's
another thing I wondered about when I was an eckist, how "The Master"
kept the chelas balanced, but Marge couldn't handle his power flows so
they had to divorce?   Yep, most wives have a problem with those
"power flows" when their husband is having an affair with one of the
office girls.
Okay, I've been buzzing around here long enough.....yes, I'll tell my
True Master you said hi!!   Those were the days, weren't they!!!
A.R.E. used to be a lot more fun, and I had a rollicking good
time!!!    <giggle>
SHARON
PS - Hey, Etznab - I just noticed, I'm "replying" from Google, right
up above between the "newsgroups" and text boxes you can "AddCc, Add
Followup-to, or Edit Subject".   But I think if you change the subject
it'll always show up in the same thread.   And hey, if anyone does
ever find really solid unbiased & accurate stuff on the Holocaust I'd
be interested, of course it frequently depends just on the person's
point of view, and it's not really that important once you get into
those really high numbers.  I just wish the Jews & Palestinians would
learn how to share and just get along.  Good grief, there's plenty of
desert over there that could be transformed into livable & productive
land & everyone could be happy!!

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back.   Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
      "I'm moving it for several reasons.  In the past there have been
a
      number of psychic forces hovering around the site.  We've also
had
      to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
      to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
      southwestern United States."   Klemp, "Be The Hu"  (special
cultbook
      for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
      to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
So...you just wonder!!   Also, there's the little matter of the temple
site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member.  She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
them
about this whole matter.   "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
the
Latino invasion:   An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures.  The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years.   California has negative latino growth. And guess what!   The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation?  Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home?  Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"?   Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court battle
over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet.   And, since this I
also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in other eckbooks
without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but say
something entirely different to members, who I daresay were just as
innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally clueless about
all the cult's dirt.

...
read more »

[Kinpa]

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.
My questions are sincere and not meant to offend, and the fact that I
have said very little in here for the last, I don't know many, years
hopefully would convey to  you that I am not here to
joust.  I was just curious.  I guess I could go back and read all the
threads to find out, but I was just curious.
I left Eckankar for many reasons, one of which I was disillusioned
with the way Eckankar had gone.  It was feeling too much like
Christianity in it's direction.  I didn't all of a sudden pack up and
leave, I dwindled in my activities.  Also, I felt it was more than a
bit  me, the reason for leaving, than it was anything else, it wasn't
working for me.  I wasn't motivated to live the lifestyle that I felt
it was calling for.  I am not a religious person, I can't lead a
religious lifestyle.  Is that a lack of discipline? perhaps.
I was in Eckankar from 1974 till 2004(ish) initiation level,  I guess
as you said, for "what it's worth" not worth mentioning.  I know that
I couldn't regurgitate the "gospel" according to so and so and feel
sincere about it.  I was playing a part that I didn't feel comfortable
with completely.  Kind of felt like what Paul was telling us not to
do...  it is quite evident that a lot of Eckist do exactly that.  The
coined responses to key questions, as if they had no minds of their
own, they just know the appropriate response for the specific
question.  I am not slamming anyone on that, it's the same thing that
anyone in any religion does.  They know they answer according to the
preacher, priest, guru, etc.
I said once in here, that I am not a "mental" person so filling my
head with quotes and verses was not my thing.  I was being groomed for
something I didn't want to do.
I actually was more of a musician.  In fact someone told me that one
of my songs, on one of the CDs is still played at the seminars...
interesting.
I don't feel anger toward Eckankar, I was 14 when I started, perhaps
12 at my introduction, through my Dad, my first initiation was truly
my first spiritual experience of leaving the body (which I don't feel
has to be a spiritual experience anymore-- but that's another
discussion) Darwin was the Master at that time it was quite the real
experience for me.  I understand more clearly all of that now.
Anyway reading all of the posts here and reading Lane's stuff and some
other's is somewhat new to me, so I have questions about all of that.
I can now see clearly how Paul started  Eckankar and perhaps a little
bit about his intentions.  I confess that I am reading Doug's book
right now.  I like the historical perspective, I am taking to heart
that he is definitely coming at it with an Eckist's perspective.  I
accept that, and respect him for that.  I actually appreciate the book
because I feel I am able to balance out a lot of things while reading
this.  Balancing from both sides to be quite honest.
Ok that is where I am coming from.
I have not read about Cults or anything of that nature, I don't
clearly know what you are referring to, but isn't any religion guilty
of putting out information and only information that they feel is what
is "best" for their followers.  I tend to think of all religions as a
cult.
I was not going to ramble here, and here I am doing that... I was
about to go on, but I'll stop here.
Andy

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
ok,
Ex Eckist here, I read these posts kind of randomly
I am wondering why there is so much hostility Sharon?
Again, I am EX Eckist, but I don't feel the bitterness that you do.
I am disillusioned , disturbed, kind of without direction, and trying
to sort it all out, but I am not this angry.
What really happened that was so bad to make you feel this way?
I am not slamming you here, that is not my intention, but when it's
time to move on, isn't it just time to move on?
Didn't Eckankar serve a purpose for you, to get you to where you are
now?  Wouldn't that be kind of a good thing?
I am a pretty simple person of thought, please forgive my naivete in
this matter.
Andy

The "move on" notion is usually parroted by members of Eckankar. Can
you tell us why you left? PLease answer, I seriously would like to
know. And how long were you a member, Andy?
When I first left, I suppose I may have made comments like yours, but
over time, I began to realize just how far reaching and irresponsible
the lies of Eckankar really are. It sometimes takes time (perhaps
years) before all the personal ramifications become apparent. It isn't
just some benign path with a few harmless fictions. I was a member
since I was 16, and was a member for 28 years. I was a sixth initiate,
for what it's worth. If you want to know why people feel more strongly
than you, read some books on cults, and cult psychology.
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by SharonBT
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish the very best
information in the eckbooks, since that's where most members get the
most information.  Perhaps he was transmitting "ecology & convention
facilities" on the inner, but I didn't get it.  <gg>
Levels?   So, on which levels do you think the different eckcuses fit?
Is it "higher" or "lower" to believe in evil psychic forces which
evidently threaten to overpower eckies who would gather in the area?
So maybe keeping eckies of all initiations away from Sedona was the
way "the master" was protecting them?  You know, sort of the way your
ID card protects you from dying in your sleep from what might look
like a heart attack but is really because you were attacked by evil
witches & warlocks?  (See:  http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html
)
South American politics pushing people into overpopulated Mexico &
then into the US?   I wonder what the real statistics are?   I know
people from several South American countries who came to the US many
years ago.  They skipped Mexico & came straight to the US, usually by
plane.  One took a boat.  Actually, a big ship.   Maybe Klemp just
meant poor people on foot?
Oh, just had a thought - did Klemp tell you there weren't adequate
convention facilities before or after ekult lost the court fight for
Helen Frye's land?   Hmmm....thinking of the timing, it must've been
afterwards since Darwin was in power when that went to court.
A thought.....my mind tends to wander....if Klemp is so concerned
about ecology, isn't messing with the weather affecting the ecology?
I remember reading The Word of THE ECK about how the move from CA to
MN changed the weather, and another story where sending out a lot of
pink initiation slips caused a heat wave in MN.   I remember a winter
hot spell back in the 80's.  I lost quite a few beautiful rose
bushes.
And evidently another reason the Klempster didn't mention to the
members, although I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned it to you
but you just didn't mention it, was non-profit tax laws or whatever
are better in MN than in either AZ or CA?
Is is better tax-wise to be a "religion" or just a non-profit?   Just
wondering here...mind wandering.....now, many of us remember back when
it seemed like every newsletter was announcing a new "official blurb"
- "Spiritual Path", "Way of Life", "New-Age Religion", I kept losing
track & not being able to remember, but thought the "Religion of the
Light & Sound of God" was long & a bit awkward.
Actually, Doug, I *am* interested in an answer - but the kind of
"answer" you did with Twitch's plagiarism/literarytheft.   You know,
one of your long squirmy soporific "whole truth" things!!   Or what
you used to do with Lurk, keeping him off-track and away from the real
& serious issues of ekult's lies and deceptions, with your distracting
smooth-salesman "dialogues".
Hey, back when I was an eckie you were a really "high" initiate, RESA,
ESA, all that other stuff - you must be *really* HI-er now!!!    Like,
a 10th or 11th?
How long have you & Klemp been buddies?   Did you become friends when
he was married to Marge & working in the darkroom?   Wow, that's
another thing I wondered about when I was an eckist, how "The Master"
kept the chelas balanced, but Marge couldn't handle his power flows so
they had to divorce?   Yep, most wives have a problem with those
"power flows" when their husband is having an affair with one of the
office girls.
Okay, I've been buzzing around here long enough.....yes, I'll tell my
True Master you said hi!!   Those were the days, weren't they!!!
A.R.E. used to be a lot more fun, and I had a rollicking good
time!!!    <giggle>
SHARON
PS - Hey, Etznab - I just noticed, I'm "replying" from Google, right
up above between the "newsgroups" and text boxes you can "AddCc, Add
Followup-to, or Edit Subject".   But I think if you change the subject
it'll always show up in the same thread.   And hey, if anyone does
ever find really solid unbiased & accurate stuff on the Holocaust I'd
be interested, of course it frequently depends just on the person's
point of view, and it's not really that important once you get into
those really high numbers.  I just wish the Jews & Palestinians would
learn how to share and just get along.  Good grief, there's plenty of
desert over there that could be transformed into livable & productive
land

...
read more »

thank you Andy, for sharing that

[TianYue]

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.
My questions are sincere and not meant to offend, and the fact that I
have said very little in here for the last, I don't know many, years
hopefully would convey to  you that I am not here to
joust.  I was just curious.  I guess I could go back and read all the
threads to find out, but I was just curious.
I left Eckankar for many reasons, one of which I was disillusioned
with the way Eckankar had gone.  It was feeling too much like
Christianity in it's direction.  I didn't all of a sudden pack up and
leave, I dwindled in my activities.  Also, I felt it was more than a
bit  me, the reason for leaving, than it was anything else, it wasn't
working for me.  I wasn't motivated to live the lifestyle that I felt
it was calling for.  I am not a religious person, I can't lead a
religious lifestyle.  Is that a lack of discipline? perhaps.
I was in Eckankar from 1974 till 2004(ish) initiation level,  I guess
as you said, for "what it's worth" not worth mentioning.  I know that
I couldn't regurgitate the "gospel" according to so and so and feel
sincere about it.  I was playing a part that I didn't feel comfortable
with completely.  Kind of felt like what Paul was telling us not to
do...  it is quite evident that a lot of Eckist do exactly that.  The
coined responses to key questions, as if they had no minds of their
own, they just know the appropriate response for the specific
question.  I am not slamming anyone on that, it's the same thing that
anyone in any religion does.  They know they answer according to the
preacher, priest, guru, etc.
I said once in here, that I am not a "mental" person so filling my
head with quotes and verses was not my thing.  I was being groomed for
something I didn't want to do.
I actually was more of a musician.  In fact someone told me that one
of my songs, on one of the CDs is still played at the seminars...
interesting.
I don't feel anger toward Eckankar, I was 14 when I started, perhaps
12 at my introduction, through my Dad, my first initiation was truly
my first spiritual experience of leaving the body (which I don't feel
has to be a spiritual experience anymore-- but that's another
discussion) Darwin was the Master at that time it was quite the real
experience for me.  I understand more clearly all of that now.
Anyway reading all of the posts here and reading Lane's stuff and some
other's is somewhat new to me, so I have questions about all of that.
I can now see clearly how Paul started  Eckankar and perhaps a little
bit about his intentions.  I confess that I am reading Doug's book
right now.  I like the historical perspective, I am taking to heart
that he is definitely coming at it with an Eckist's perspective.  I
accept that, and respect him for that.  I actually appreciate the book
because I feel I am able to balance out a lot of things while reading
this.  Balancing from both sides to be quite honest.
Ok that is where I am coming from.
I have not read about Cults or anything of that nature, I don't
clearly know what you are referring to, but isn't any religion guilty
of putting out information and only information that they feel is what
is "best" for their followers.  I tend to think of all religions as a
cult.
I was not going to ramble here, and here I am doing that... I was
about to go on, but I'll stop here.
Andy

I'm wondering about the meaning of a few of your comments.

1) Do you feel at all as if you failed in Eckankar?

2) Do you still think Eckankar, and the Eck masters (Klemp) were all
that they claimed? Is Eckankar authentic?

Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
ok,
Ex Eckist here, I read these posts kind of randomly
I am wondering why there is so much hostility Sharon?
Again, I am EX Eckist, but I don't feel the bitterness that you do.
I am disillusioned , disturbed, kind of without direction, and trying
to sort it all out, but I am not this angry.
What really happened that was so bad to make you feel this way?
I am not slamming you here, that is not my intention, but when it's
time to move on, isn't it just time to move on?
Didn't Eckankar serve a purpose for you, to get you to where you are
now?  Wouldn't that be kind of a good thing?
I am a pretty simple person of thought, please forgive my naivete in
this matter.
Andy

The "move on" notion is usually parroted by members of Eckankar. Can
you tell us why you left? PLease answer, I seriously would like to
know. And how long were you a member, Andy?
When I first left, I suppose I may have made comments like yours, but
over time, I began to realize just how far reaching and irresponsible
the lies of Eckankar really are. It sometimes takes time (perhaps
years) before all the personal ramifications become apparent. It isn't
just some benign path with a few harmless fictions. I was a member
since I was 16, and was a member for 28 years. I was a sixth initiate,
for what it's worth. If you want to know why people feel more strongly
than you, read some books on cults, and cult psychology.
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by SharonBT
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish the very best
information in the eckbooks, since that's where most members get the
most information.  Perhaps he was transmitting "ecology & convention
facilities" on the inner, but I didn't get it.  <gg>
Levels?   So, on which levels do you think the different eckcuses fit?
Is it "higher" or "lower" to believe in evil psychic forces which
evidently threaten to overpower eckies who would gather in the area?
So maybe keeping eckies of all initiations away from Sedona was the
way "the master" was protecting them?  You know, sort of the way your
ID card protects you from dying in your sleep from what might look
like a heart attack but is really because you were attacked by evil
witches & warlocks?  (See:  http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html
)
South American politics pushing people into overpopulated Mexico &
then into the US?   I wonder what the real statistics are?   I know
people from several South American countries who came to the US many
years ago.  They skipped Mexico & came straight to the US, usually by
plane.  One took a boat.  Actually, a big ship.   Maybe Klemp just
meant poor people on foot?
Oh, just had a thought - did Klemp tell you there weren't adequate
convention facilities before or after ekult lost the court fight for
Helen Frye's land?   Hmmm....thinking of the timing, it must've been
afterwards since Darwin was in power when that went to court.
A thought.....my mind tends to wander....if Klemp is so concerned
about ecology, isn't messing with the weather affecting the ecology?
I remember reading The Word of THE ECK about how the move from CA to
MN changed the weather, and another story where sending out a lot of
pink initiation slips caused a heat wave in MN.   I remember a winter
hot spell back in the 80's.  I lost quite a few beautiful rose
bushes.
And evidently another reason the Klempster didn't mention to the
members, although I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned it to you
but you just didn't mention it, was non-profit tax laws or whatever
are better in MN than in either AZ or CA?
Is is better tax-wise to be a "religion" or just a non-profit?   Just
wondering here...mind wandering.....now, many of us remember back when
it seemed like every newsletter was announcing a new "official blurb"
- "Spiritual Path", "Way of Life", "New-Age Religion", I kept losing
track & not being able to remember, but thought the "Religion of the
Light & Sound of God" was long & a bit awkward.
Actually, Doug, I *am* interested in an answer - but the kind of
"answer" you did with Twitch's plagiarism/literarytheft.   You know,
one of your long squirmy soporific "whole truth" things!!   Or what
you used to do with Lurk, keeping him off-track and away from the real
& serious issues of ekult's lies and deceptions, with your distracting
smooth-salesman "dialogues".
Hey, back when I was an eckie you were a really "high" initiate, RESA,
ESA, all that other stuff - you must be *really* HI-er now!!!    Like,
a 10th or 11th?
How long have you & Klemp been buddies?   Did you become friends when
he was married to Marge & working in the darkroom?   Wow, that's
another thing I wondered about when I was an eckist, how "The Master"
kept the chelas balanced, but Marge couldn't handle his power flows so
they had to divorce?   Yep, most wives have a problem with those
"power flows" when their husband is having an affair with one of the
office girls.
Okay, I've been buzzing around here long enough.....yes, I'll tell my
True Master you said hi!!   Those were the days, weren't they!!!
A.R.E. used to be a lot more fun, and I had a rollicking good
time!!!    <giggle>
SHARON
PS - Hey, Etznab - I just noticed, I'm "replying" from Google, right
up above between the "newsgroups" and text boxes you can "AddCc, Add
Followup-to, or Edit Subject".   But I think if you change the subject
it'll always show up in the same thread.   And hey, if anyone does
ever find really solid unbiased & accurate stuff on the Holocaust I'd
be interested, of course it frequently depends just on the person's
point of view, and it's not really that important once you get into
those really high numbers.  I just wish the Jews & Palestinians would
learn how to share and just get along.  Good grief, there's plenty of
desert over there that could be transformed into livable & productive
land & everyone could be happy!!

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back.   Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
      "I'm moving it for several reasons.  In the past there have been
a
      number of psychic forces hovering around the site.  We've also
had
      to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
      to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
      southwestern United States."   Klemp, "Be The Hu"  (special
cultbook
      for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
      to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
So...you just wonder!!   Also, there's the little matter of the temple
site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member.  She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
them
about this whole matter.   "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
the
Latino invasion:   An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures.  The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years.   California has negative latino growth. And guess what!   The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation?  Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home?  Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"?   Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court battle
over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet.   And, since this I
also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in other eckbooks
without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but say
something entirely different to members, who I daresay were just as
innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally clueless about
all the cult's dirt.

...
read more »

[AF59]

TianYue,

1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me. I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so

2) I had quite a few inner experiences directly with Darwin Gross, and
also Harold Klemp.
Curiously enough I had never had an inner experience with Paul
Twitchell until last evening. I won't go into that right now.

I seriously question all the claims that have been made by Darwin and
Harold, and I can honestly say I just don't know.
I know at the time when i listened to Harold and Darwin I felt I was
hearing truth. I can't help but hear Paul's voice echoing in my head
to question everything, paraphrasing of course.
I also can't help but wonder what Paul would think of Eckankar now...
it's my opinion but it is clearly seems to have lost the individualism
and creativity that seemed to be there at the beginning. I have read
a few opinions on here of Paul Twitchell so I know that doesn't hold a
lot of water. I feel that I understand Paul's intentions, as naive as
I may be about that.
Eckankar seems to be boxed up now, and Eckists aren't allowed to work
outside of that box?? Again my opinion but it's not what Paul started

I never had any experiences with the other Masters listed, so since I
haven't had experience I wouldn't be able to say that I honestly
believe in them.

I seem to keep coming back and looking at Eckankar
but i can't seem to get past my big doubts. What does stand out in my
mind is my inner experiences. Would I have had those without
Eckankar? Was spirit using those forms to teach me things? well
yes.. I would say, isn't that how spirit works?

Am I even coming close to answering your question? lol...

Is Eckankar legitimate? I'd have to say yes. In so far as is any
religion legit?
Does Eckankar mean the world to some? yes it does.. Does it fulfill
a spiritual need for some? Yes... In my opinion answering yes to both
questions makes it legit

Tianyue

I hope I have answered your questions, I am fighting the TV on in the
background, my kids seeming to want to follow me to every room even
though I am trying to get to some quiet place to honestly answer your
questions. Mostly for myself no doubt.

Andy

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.
My questions are sincere and not meant to offend, and the fact that I
have said very little in here for the last, I don't know many, years
hopefully would convey to  you that I am not here to
joust.  I was just curious.  I guess I could go back and read all the
threads to find out, but I was just curious.
I left Eckankar for many reasons, one of which I was disillusioned
with the way Eckankar had gone.  It was feeling too much like
Christianity in it's direction.  I didn't all of a sudden pack up and
leave, I dwindled in my activities.  Also, I felt it was more than a
bit  me, the reason for leaving, than it was anything else, it wasn't
working for me.  I wasn't motivated to live the lifestyle that I felt
it was calling for.  I am not a religious person, I can't lead a
religious lifestyle.  Is that a lack of discipline? perhaps.
I was in Eckankar from 1974 till 2004(ish) initiation level,  I guess
as you said, for "what it's worth" not worth mentioning.  I know that
I couldn't regurgitate the "gospel" according to so and so and feel
sincere about it.  I was playing a part that I didn't feel comfortable
with completely.  Kind of felt like what Paul was telling us not to
do...  it is quite evident that a lot of Eckist do exactly that.  The
coined responses to key questions, as if they had no minds of their
own, they just know the appropriate response for the specific
question.  I am not slamming anyone on that, it's the same thing that
anyone in any religion does.  They know they answer according to the
preacher, priest, guru, etc.
I said once in here, that I am not a "mental" person so filling my
head with quotes and verses was not my thing.  I was being groomed for
something I didn't want to do.
I actually was more of a musician.  In fact someone told me that one
of my songs, on one of the CDs is still played at the seminars...
interesting.
I don't feel anger toward Eckankar, I was 14 when I started, perhaps
12 at my introduction, through my Dad, my first initiation was truly
my first spiritual experience of leaving the body (which I don't feel
has to be a spiritual experience anymore-- but that's another
discussion) Darwin was the Master at that time it was quite the real
experience for me.  I understand more clearly all of that now.
Anyway reading all of the posts here and reading Lane's stuff and some
other's is somewhat new to me, so I have questions about all of that.
I can now see clearly how Paul started  Eckankar and perhaps a little
bit about his intentions.  I confess that I am reading Doug's book
right now.  I like the historical perspective, I am taking to heart
that he is definitely coming at it with an Eckist's perspective.  I
accept that, and respect him for that.  I actually appreciate the book
because I feel I am able to balance out a lot of things while reading
this.  Balancing from both sides to be quite honest.
Ok that is where I am coming from.
I have not read about Cults or anything of that nature, I don't
clearly know what you are referring to, but isn't any religion guilty
of putting out information and only information that they feel is what
is "best" for their followers.  I tend to think of all religions as a
cult.
I was not going to ramble here, and here I am doing that... I was
about to go on, but I'll stop here.
Andy

I'm wondering about the meaning of a few of your comments.
1) Do you feel at all as if you failed in Eckankar?
2) Do you still think Eckankar, and the Eck masters (Klemp) were all
that they claimed? Is Eckankar authentic?
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
ok,
Ex Eckist here, I read these posts kind of randomly
I am wondering why there is so much hostility Sharon?
Again, I am EX Eckist, but I don't feel the bitterness that you do.
I am disillusioned , disturbed, kind of without direction, and trying
to sort it all out, but I am not this angry.
What really happened that was so bad to make you feel this way?
I am not slamming you here, that is not my intention, but when it's
time to move on, isn't it just time to move on?
Didn't Eckankar serve a purpose for you, to get you to where you are
now?  Wouldn't that be kind of a good thing?
I am a pretty simple person of thought, please forgive my naivete in
this matter.
Andy

The "move on" notion is usually parroted by members of Eckankar. Can
you tell us why you left? PLease answer, I seriously would like to
know. And how long were you a member, Andy?
When I first left, I suppose I may have made comments like yours, but
over time, I began to realize just how far reaching and irresponsible
the lies of Eckankar really are. It sometimes takes time (perhaps
years) before all the personal ramifications become apparent. It isn't
just some benign path with a few harmless fictions. I was a member
since I was 16, and was a member for 28 years. I was a sixth initiate,
for what it's worth. If you want to know why people feel more strongly
than you, read some books on cults, and cult psychology.
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by SharonBT
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish the very best
information in the eckbooks, since that's where most members get the
most information.  Perhaps he was transmitting "ecology & convention
facilities" on the inner, but I didn't get it.  <gg>
Levels?   So, on which levels do you think the different eckcuses fit?
Is it "higher" or "lower" to believe in evil psychic forces which
evidently threaten to overpower eckies who would gather in the area?
So maybe keeping eckies of all initiations away from Sedona was the
way "the master" was protecting them?  You know, sort of the way your
ID card protects you from dying in your sleep from what might look
like a heart attack but is really because you were attacked by evil
witches & warlocks?  (See:  http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html
)
South American politics pushing people into overpopulated Mexico &
then into the US?   I wonder what the real statistics are?   I know
people from several South American countries who came to the US many
years ago.  They skipped Mexico & came straight to the US, usually by
plane.  One took a boat.  Actually, a big ship.   Maybe Klemp just
meant poor people on foot?
Oh, just had a thought - did Klemp tell you there weren't adequate
convention facilities before or after ekult lost the court fight for
Helen Frye's land?   Hmmm....thinking of the timing, it must've been
afterwards since Darwin was in power when that went to court.
A thought.....my mind tends to wander....if Klemp is so concerned
about ecology, isn't messing with the weather affecting the ecology?
I remember reading The Word of THE ECK about how the move from CA to
MN changed the weather, and another story where sending out a lot of
pink initiation slips caused a heat wave in MN.   I remember a winter
hot spell back in the 80's.  I lost quite a few beautiful rose
bushes.
And evidently another reason the Klempster didn't mention to the
members, although I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned it to you
but you just didn't mention it, was non-profit tax laws or whatever
are better in MN than in either AZ or CA?
Is is better tax-wise to be a "religion" or just a non-profit?   Just
wondering here...mind wandering.....now, many of us remember back when
it seemed like every newsletter was announcing a new "official blurb"
- "Spiritual Path", "Way of Life", "New-Age Religion", I kept losing
track & not being able to remember, but thought the "Religion of the
Light & Sound of God" was long & a bit awkward.
Actually, Doug, I *am* interested in an answer - but the kind of
"answer" you did with Twitch's plagiarism/literarytheft.   You know,
one of your long squirmy soporific "whole truth" things!!   Or what
you used to do with Lurk, keeping him off-track and away from the real
& serious issues of ekult's lies and deceptions, with your distracting
smooth-salesman "dialogues".
Hey, back when I was an eckie you were a really "high" initiate, RESA,
ESA, all that other stuff - you must be *really* HI-er now!!!    Like,
a 10th or 11th?
How long have you & Klemp been buddies?   Did you become friends when
he was married to Marge & working in the darkroom?   Wow, that's
another thing I wondered about when I was an eckist, how "The Master"
kept the chelas balanced, but Marge couldn't handle his power flows so
they had to divorce?   Yep, most wives have a problem with those
"power flows" when their husband is having an affair with one of the
office girls.
Okay, I've been buzzing around here long enough.....yes, I'll tell my
True Master you said hi!!   Those were the days, weren't they!!!
A.R.E. used to be a lot more fun, and I had a rollicking good
time!!!    <giggle>
SHARON
PS - Hey, Etznab - I just noticed, I'm "replying" from Google, right
up above between the "newsgroups" and text boxes you can "AddCc, Add

...
read more »

[TianYue]

Post by AF59
TianYue,
1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me.  I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so
2) I had quite a few inner experiences directly with Darwin Gross, and
also Harold Klemp.
Curiously enough I had never had an inner experience with Paul
Twitchell until last evening.  I won't go into that right now.
I seriously question all the claims that have been made by Darwin and
Harold, and I can honestly say I just don't know.
I know at the time when i listened to Harold and Darwin I felt I was
hearing truth.  I can't help but hear Paul's voice echoing in my head
to question everything, paraphrasing of course.
I also can't help but wonder what Paul would think of Eckankar now...
it's my opinion but it is clearly seems to have lost the individualism
and creativity that seemed to be there at the beginning.  I have read
a few opinions on here of Paul Twitchell so I know that doesn't hold a
lot of water.  I feel that I understand Paul's intentions, as naive as
I may be about that.
Eckankar seems to be boxed up now, and Eckists aren't allowed to work
outside of that box??  Again my opinion but it's not what Paul started
I never had any experiences with the other Masters listed, so since I
haven't had experience I wouldn't be able to say that I honestly
believe in them.
I seem to keep coming back and looking at Eckankar
but i can't seem to get past my big doubts. What does stand out in my
mind is my inner experiences.  Would I have had those without
Eckankar?  Was spirit using those forms to teach me things?  well
yes.. I would say, isn't that how spirit works?
Am I even coming close to answering your question?  lol...
Is Eckankar legitimate?   I'd have to say yes.  In so far as is any
religion legit?
Does Eckankar mean the world to  some? yes it does..  Does it fulfill
a spiritual need for some? Yes...  In my opinion answering yes to both
questions makes it legit
Tianyue
I hope I have answered your questions, I am fighting the TV on in the
background, my kids seeming to want to follow me to every room even
though I am trying to get to some quiet place to honestly answer your
questions.  Mostly for myself no doubt.
Andy

I understand completely. I could have written the same thing while I
was in my last few years in eckankar. There is a way to solve the
dilemma, but I think everyone needs to work that out on their own. I
would only say how necessary it is to question the basic assumptions
that have become so ingrained that one doesn't even know they're
there. Be careful of built-in double binds that seem inescapable. I
could say more, but this isn't the best forum to freely express
myself.

You do realize, I hope, that some of the "facts" in Doug's book are
not exactly factual? Doug's book largely sprung out of debates he had
with Lane. For a real eye opener, I suggest you read Path of the
Masters by Julian Johnson, which provided Twitchell with a great deal
of plagiarized material in several of PT's books. If you get a copy,
and hold it in your hands, and read it for yourself, I guarantee your
jaw will drop. You’ll realize you’re reading one of the basic source
texts of Eckankar. But you must have the book in your hands, and read
it for yourself to fully comprehend.

I agree that there is a bit of cultism in almost any religion, but
when the controlling and manipulative mechanisms cross over a certain
line, resulting in dissociation from reality and other detrimental
affects (which people may sometimes never really become fully
cognizant of) then it's a cult. One book I have delves into the
affects on kids who grew up in a cult. Some of the affects seem so
"normal" for those who spent years in a cult that they go
unrecognized. It's like kids who are mistreated by parents but don't
realize it was a form of abuse. It seems normal, because it forms the
only reality they ever knew. Reading a book or two about cult
psychology can shed light on some of these affects, and help people
recognize them.

Anyway, your present understanding of, and your response to your
experience in Eckankar, as you now view it as an ex-member, is not the
only valid way to view the experience. Others will have different
reasons for leaving than you have, and some will quite normally and
healthily have a bit of anger about the exploitation of their trust.
In most cases, a little anger is healthy and possibly even necessary
to unravel the affects of cultic indoctrination. The anger may be far
more normal in such circumstances than dissociated indifference (read
some of the posts by Doug and others on a.r.e., and notice the
peculiar dissociated indifference, even when discussing issues of
great magnitude). The anger (when it is within reason, and not
homicidal!) is the evidence of a living pulse, demonstrating a person
who is functionally responding. It can take a long time before ex-
members trust any sort of organized teaching again, if ever.

On the other hand, there is quite a bit of thinly veiled anger on the
part of some of the Eckists here. Read Rich’s posts, and some of
Doug’s, and JR’s, and Ken’s, when they are in response to valid
criticisms. The anger simmers beneath the surface. Have you actually
not noticed that?

As to moving on, most people do move on. It doesn’t mean they
shouldn’t spend time voicing some of the criticisms they have of
Eckankar, if only to serve as a benefit to people struggling to come
to terms with the realization that Eckankar is a sham. A fraction of
my life is spent thinking about Eckankar. And Sharon seems to always
be working in her garden, from what I gather. But for some of us,
those who have revealed the truth helped to set us free, and we see
the enormous service that people like Lane have provided. There is
nothing wrong with pointing out fraud and lies and exploitative
practices. As one researcher of new religious movements noted, in
almost every case, former members of such groups have been correct in
their warnings about the groups they once followed.

Tianyue

[AF59]

Tianyue,
first of all thanks for your time spending with me on this
I really do understand what you are saying.
Give me some time to mull this over I do have a lot of questions on
this

if you don't mind I would like to ask a few questions

1) you inner experiences with Eck, how do you explain them, were they
spirit just working in any form that it could for the benefit of your
experience?

2) referencing an earlier question from me, is it not at least a good
thing that you went through what you did so you are where you need to
be at this time?

I am asking cause this is where I am at this point.. trying to sort
out my experiences and trying to find some validity in what I have
gone through.

I want to respond to questions like:
"On the other hand, there is quite a bit of thinly veiled anger on
the
part of some of the Eckists here. Read Rich’s posts, and some of
Doug’s, and JR’s, and Ken’s, when they are in response to valid
criticisms. The anger simmers beneath the surface. Have you actually
not noticed that?"

I really need to go through the threads to be able to answer that
honestly

Thanks for the conversation.
I do appreciate it.

Sincerely,

Andy


Like I said I want to read what you have posted so I can digest and
better understand. Please give me some time

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
TianYue,
1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me.  I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so
2) I had quite a few inner experiences directly with Darwin Gross, and
also Harold Klemp.
Curiously enough I had never had an inner experience with Paul
Twitchell until last evening.  I won't go into that right now.
I seriously question all the claims that have been made by Darwin and
Harold, and I can honestly say I just don't know.
I know at the time when i listened to Harold and Darwin I felt I was
hearing truth.  I can't help but hear Paul's voice echoing in my head
to question everything, paraphrasing of course.
I also can't help but wonder what Paul would think of Eckankar now...
it's my opinion but it is clearly seems to have lost the individualism
and creativity that seemed to be there at the beginning.  I have read
a few opinions on here of Paul Twitchell so I know that doesn't hold a
lot of water.  I feel that I understand Paul's intentions, as naive as
I may be about that.
Eckankar seems to be boxed up now, and Eckists aren't allowed to work
outside of that box??  Again my opinion but it's not what Paul started
I never had any experiences with the other Masters listed, so since I
haven't had experience I wouldn't be able to say that I honestly
believe in them.
I seem to keep coming back and looking at Eckankar
but i can't seem to get past my big doubts. What does stand out in my
mind is my inner experiences.  Would I have had those without
Eckankar?  Was spirit using those forms to teach me things?  well
yes.. I would say, isn't that how spirit works?
Am I even coming close to answering your question?  lol...
Is Eckankar legitimate?   I'd have to say yes.  In so far as is any
religion legit?
Does Eckankar mean the world to  some? yes it does..  Does it fulfill
a spiritual need for some? Yes...  In my opinion answering yes to both
questions makes it legit
Tianyue
I hope I have answered your questions, I am fighting the TV on in the
background, my kids seeming to want to follow me to every room even
though I am trying to get to some quiet place to honestly answer your
questions.  Mostly for myself no doubt.
Andy

I understand completely. I could have written the same thing while I
was in my last few years in eckankar.  There is a way to solve the
dilemma, but I think everyone needs to work that out on their own.  I
would only say how necessary it is to question the basic assumptions
that have become so ingrained that one doesn't even know they're
there. Be careful of built-in double binds that seem inescapable. I
could say more, but this isn't the best forum to freely express
myself.
You do realize, I hope, that some of the "facts" in Doug's book are
not exactly factual? Doug's book largely sprung out of debates he had
with Lane. For a real eye opener, I suggest you read Path of the
Masters by Julian Johnson, which provided Twitchell with a great deal
of plagiarized material in several of PT's books. If you get a copy,
and hold it in your hands, and read it for yourself, I guarantee your
jaw will drop.  You’ll realize you’re reading one of the basic source
texts of Eckankar. But you must have the book in your hands, and read
it for yourself to fully comprehend.
I agree that there is a bit of cultism in almost any religion, but
when the controlling and manipulative mechanisms cross over a certain
line, resulting in dissociation from reality and other detrimental
affects (which people may sometimes never really become fully
cognizant of) then it's a cult. One book I have delves into the
affects on kids who grew up in a cult. Some of the affects seem so
"normal" for those who spent years in a cult that they go
unrecognized. It's like kids who are mistreated by parents but don't
realize it was a form of abuse. It seems normal, because it forms the
only reality they ever knew. Reading a book or two about cult
psychology can shed light on some of these affects, and help people
recognize them.
Anyway, your present understanding of, and your response to your
experience in Eckankar, as you now view it as an ex-member, is not the
only valid way to view the experience. Others will have different
reasons for leaving than you have, and some will quite normally and
healthily have a bit of anger about the exploitation of their trust.
In most cases, a little anger is healthy and possibly even necessary
to unravel the affects of cultic indoctrination.  The anger may be far
more normal in such circumstances than dissociated indifference (read
some of the posts by Doug and others on a.r.e., and notice the
peculiar dissociated indifference, even when discussing issues of
great magnitude). The anger (when it is within reason, and not
homicidal!) is the evidence of a living pulse, demonstrating a person
who is functionally responding. It can take a long time before ex-
members trust any sort of organized teaching again, if ever.
On the other hand, there is quite a bit of thinly veiled anger on the
part of some of the Eckists here. Read Rich’s posts, and some of
Doug’s, and JR’s, and Ken’s, when they are in response to valid
criticisms. The anger simmers beneath the surface. Have you actually
not noticed that?
As to moving on, most people do move on. It doesn’t mean they
shouldn’t spend time voicing some of the criticisms they have of
Eckankar, if only to serve as a benefit to people struggling to come
to terms with the realization that Eckankar is a sham. A fraction of
my life is spent thinking about Eckankar. And Sharon seems to always
be working in her garden, from what I gather. But for some of us,
those who have revealed the truth helped to set us free, and we see
the enormous service that people like Lane have provided. There is
nothing wrong with pointing out fraud and lies and exploitative
practices. As one researcher of new religious movements noted, in
almost every case, former members of such groups have been correct in
their warnings about the groups they once followed.
Tianyue

[JR]

Post by AF59
TianYue,
1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me.  I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so
2) I had quite a few inner experiences directly with Darwin Gross, and
also Harold Klemp.
Curiously enough I had never had an inner experience with Paul
Twitchell until last evening.  I won't go into that right now.
I seriously question all the claims that have been made by Darwin and
Harold, and I can honestly say I just don't know.
I know at the time when i listened to Harold and Darwin I felt I was
hearing truth.  I can't help but hear Paul's voice echoing in my head
to question everything, paraphrasing of course.
I also can't help but wonder what Paul would think of Eckankar now...
it's my opinion but it is clearly seems to have lost the individualism
and creativity that seemed to be there at the beginning.  I have read
a few opinions on here of Paul Twitchell so I know that doesn't hold a
lot of water.  I feel that I understand Paul's intentions, as naive as
I may be about that.
Eckankar seems to be boxed up now, and Eckists aren't allowed to work
outside of that box??  Again my opinion but it's not what Paul started
I never had any experiences with the other Masters listed, so since I
haven't had experience I wouldn't be able to say that I honestly
believe in them.
I seem to keep coming back and looking at Eckankar
but i can't seem to get past my big doubts. What does stand out in my
mind is my inner experiences.  Would I have had those without
Eckankar?  Was spirit using those forms to teach me things?  well
yes.. I would say, isn't that how spirit works?
Am I even coming close to answering your question?  lol...
Is Eckankar legitimate?   I'd have to say yes.  In so far as is any
religion legit?
Does Eckankar mean the world to  some? yes it does..  Does it fulfill
a spiritual need for some? Yes...  In my opinion answering yes to both
questions makes it legit
Tianyue
I hope I have answered your questions, I am fighting the TV on in the
background, my kids seeming to want to follow me to every room even
though I am trying to get to some quiet place to honestly answer your
questions.  Mostly for myself no doubt.
Andy

Thank-you for you candor, Andy. Even though it is on every spice rack,
few use it, if at all, as well as you have here. Not flattery; just
fact.

JR

[Doug]

Andy,

One thing I would like to say here is that I do hope you don't feel
that this has anything to do with you failing. Actually, Tian Yue will
probably find this surprising, but I agree with him that over time you
will realize that this was not about failing.

The spiritual path, from my personal experience, starts wherever we
happen to be in life and takes us from there. It always meets us where
we are. It is not about us fitting into an organization or a belief
system, since Spirit fits itself to Soul.

This means we are each guided in a different way. The spiritual path,
whatever you want to call it, is very much an individual path, as you
said.

For me, the lesson has been to always trust my inner self. I don't
always understand why something isn't quite working for me, but I've
come to learn that there was always something important beneath what I
experienced. Over time I change how I see things, looking back, but I
think this is natural to see things differently as we grow. But I
still respect my own reasons for when I did something, even if I
wouldn't do it that way again. I think we should not be so afraid to
make mistakes, but should be bold in going after the things we feel
are right.

I think the most important thing on the spiritual path is to make
conscious choices and to learn from them. If the goal is spiritual
growth, then how can anything we do ever be a failure, if we are
learning?

Take care.

Doug.

Post by AF59
TianYue,
1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me.  I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so
2) I had quite a few inner experiences directly with Darwin Gross, and
also Harold Klemp.
Curiously enough I had never had an inner experience with Paul
Twitchell until last evening.  I won't go into that right now.
I seriously question all the claims that have been made by Darwin and
Harold, and I can honestly say I just don't know.
I know at the time when i listened to Harold and Darwin I felt I was
hearing truth.  I can't help but hear Paul's voice echoing in my head
to question everything, paraphrasing of course.
I also can't help but wonder what Paul would think of Eckankar now...
it's my opinion but it is clearly seems to have lost the individualism
and creativity that seemed to be there at the beginning.  I have read
a few opinions on here of Paul Twitchell so I know that doesn't hold a
lot of water.  I feel that I understand Paul's intentions, as naive as
I may be about that.
Eckankar seems to be boxed up now, and Eckists aren't allowed to work
outside of that box??  Again my opinion but it's not what Paul started
I never had any experiences with the other Masters listed, so since I
haven't had experience I wouldn't be able to say that I honestly
believe in them.
I seem to keep coming back and looking at Eckankar
but i can't seem to get past my big doubts. What does stand out in my
mind is my inner experiences.  Would I have had those without
Eckankar?  Was spirit using those forms to teach me things?  well
yes.. I would say, isn't that how spirit works?
Am I even coming close to answering your question?  lol...
Is Eckankar legitimate?   I'd have to say yes.  In so far as is any
religion legit?
Does Eckankar mean the world to  some? yes it does..  Does it fulfill
a spiritual need for some? Yes...  In my opinion answering yes to both
questions makes it legit
Tianyue
I hope I have answered your questions, I am fighting the TV on in the
background, my kids seeming to want to follow me to every room even
though I am trying to get to some quiet place to honestly answer your
questions.  Mostly for myself no doubt.
Andy

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.
My questions are sincere and not meant to offend, and the fact that I
have said very little in here for the last, I don't know many, years
hopefully would convey to  you that I am not here to
joust.  I was just curious.  I guess I could go back and read all the
threads to find out, but I was just curious.
I left Eckankar for many reasons, one of which I was disillusioned
with the way Eckankar had gone.  It was feeling too much like
Christianity in it's direction.  I didn't all of a sudden pack up and
leave, I dwindled in my activities.  Also, I felt it was more than a
bit  me, the reason for leaving, than it was anything else, it wasn't
working for me.  I wasn't motivated to live the lifestyle that I felt
it was calling for.  I am not a religious person, I can't lead a
religious lifestyle.  Is that a lack of discipline? perhaps.
I was in Eckankar from 1974 till 2004(ish) initiation level,  I guess
as you said, for "what it's worth" not worth mentioning.  I know that
I couldn't regurgitate the "gospel" according to so and so and feel
sincere about it.  I was playing a part that I didn't feel comfortable
with completely.  Kind of felt like what Paul was telling us not to
do...  it is quite evident that a lot of Eckist do exactly that.  The
coined responses to key questions, as if they had no minds of their
own, they just know the appropriate response for the specific
question.  I am not slamming anyone on that, it's the same thing that
anyone in any religion does.  They know they answer according to the
preacher, priest, guru, etc.
I said once in here, that I am not a "mental" person so filling my
head with quotes and verses was not my thing.  I was being groomed for
something I didn't want to do.
I actually was more of a musician.  In fact someone told me that one
of my songs, on one of the CDs is still played at the seminars...
interesting.
I don't feel anger toward Eckankar, I was 14 when I started, perhaps
12 at my introduction, through my Dad, my first initiation was truly
my first spiritual experience of leaving the body (which I don't feel
has to be a spiritual experience anymore-- but that's another
discussion) Darwin was the Master at that time it was quite the real
experience for me.  I understand more clearly all of that now.
Anyway reading all of the posts here and reading Lane's stuff and some
other's is somewhat new to me, so I have questions about all of that.
I can now see clearly how Paul started  Eckankar and perhaps a little
bit about his intentions.  I confess that I am reading Doug's book
right now.  I like the historical perspective, I am taking to heart
that he is definitely coming at it with an Eckist's perspective.  I
accept that, and respect him for that.  I actually appreciate the book
because I feel I am able to balance out a lot of things while reading
this.  Balancing from both sides to be quite honest.
Ok that is where I am coming from.
I have not read about Cults or anything of that nature, I don't
clearly know what you are referring to, but isn't any religion guilty
of putting out information and only information that they feel is what
is "best" for their followers.  I tend to think of all religions as a
cult.
I was not going to ramble here, and here I am doing that... I was
about to go on, but I'll stop here.
Andy

I'm wondering about the meaning of a few of your comments.
1) Do you feel at all as if you failed in Eckankar?
2) Do you still think Eckankar, and the Eck masters (Klemp) were all
that they claimed? Is Eckankar authentic?
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
ok,
Ex Eckist here, I read these posts kind of randomly
I am wondering why there is so much hostility Sharon?
Again, I am EX Eckist, but I don't feel the bitterness that you do.
I am disillusioned , disturbed, kind of without direction, and trying
to sort it all out, but I am not this angry.
What really happened that was so bad to make you feel this way?
I am not slamming you here, that is not my intention, but when it's
time to move on, isn't it just time to move on?
Didn't Eckankar serve a purpose for you, to get you to where you are
now?  Wouldn't that be kind of a good thing?
I am a pretty simple person of thought, please forgive my naivete in
this matter.
Andy

The "move on" notion is usually parroted by members of Eckankar. Can
you tell us why you left? PLease answer, I seriously would like to
know. And how long were you a member, Andy?
When I first left, I suppose I may have made comments like yours, but
over time, I began to realize just how far reaching and irresponsible
the lies of Eckankar really are. It sometimes takes time (perhaps
years) before all the personal ramifications become apparent. It isn't
just some benign path with a few harmless fictions. I was a member
since I was 16, and was a member for 28 years. I was a sixth initiate,
for what it's worth. If you want to know why people feel more strongly
than you, read some books on cults, and cult psychology.
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by SharonBT
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish the very best
information in the eckbooks, since that's where most members get the
most information.  Perhaps he was transmitting "ecology & convention
facilities" on the inner, but I didn't get it.  <gg>
Levels?   So, on which levels do you think the different eckcuses fit?
Is it "higher" or "lower" to believe in evil psychic forces which
evidently threaten to overpower eckies who would gather in the area?
So maybe keeping eckies of all initiations away from Sedona was the
way "the master" was protecting them?  You know, sort of the way your
ID card protects you from dying in your sleep from what might look
like a heart attack but is really because you were attacked by evil
witches & warlocks?  (See:  http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html
)
South American politics pushing people into overpopulated Mexico &
then into the US?   I wonder what the real statistics are?   I know
people from several South American countries who came to the US many
years ago.  They skipped Mexico & came straight to the US, usually by
plane.  One took a boat.  Actually, a big ship.   Maybe Klemp just
meant poor people on foot?
Oh, just had a thought - did Klemp tell you there weren't adequate
convention facilities before or after ekult lost the court fight for
Helen Frye's land?   Hmmm....thinking of the timing, it must've been
afterwards since Darwin was in power when that went to court.
A thought.....my mind tends to wander....if Klemp is so concerned
about ecology, isn't messing with the

...
read more »

[AF59]

Thanks to anyone who has taken the time to leave me a comment.

I respect everyone's view point and dare I say, there is a piece of
everyone's view point in my viewpoint, if that makes sense. Very
rarely do I find that I can't relate to someone in some way, and I am
never, or at least rarely ever shocked by anyone.

Tian Yue was kind of enough to very plainly ask me questions that made
me think, and at some point maybe I'll be able to answer them better,
I really thank her for that.

JR has a refreshingly down to earth view point on life that I admire.

Doug I think your book is just a spark of your true wisdom and
insight, and I thank you for sharing that.

As JR said this is not for flattery purposes, just voicing my thanks
to you all.

I appear to be coming back to this point time and time again, over the
last five years, and trust me I won't keep draggin' y'all into it. I
don't want to be looking here for answers cause I know my answers are
not "out there somewhere"
However I would love it for just one time someone would say to me
"it's this way"
wouldn't that be nice in a way? but on the other hand, isn't that
what we were all trying to get away from in the first place? Kind of
funny, to me anyway.

I had this incredible inner journey the other night, and I shared it
with my Dad in an email. My Dad has a lifelong membership to
Eckankar and is a good sounding board for me.

I am posting part of it here, mostly because of perspective. I still
consider myself an Ex Eckist at this point but I am still searching in
a sense. Maybe I am not really searching either, I don't know.

Really Doug, I am not trying to butter you up for a free autographed
book or anything (LOL)

Email as follows:

"I bought this book online called "Paul Twitchell The Whole Truth"  (I
think that's the title)
I've been slowly reading it.  It's put out by Doug Marman.  I actually
am enjoying reading it and getting a historical perspective on things.
He spends a lot of time addressing all of the bad things that people
are saying about Paul and his plagarisms etc.  
I am only one quarter of the way through the book if that much.  I
never have been all that much into Paul Twitchell, I have never had
any experiences with any of the other Masters other than who ever was
the current Master.. 

I am gaining a whole new respect of Paul and what he did, and I can
see the early teachings of Eck very clearly and what Paul was trying
to do, trying to give to the world.
I think  I can easily follow Paul's teachings and understand/relate to
them more than I can the way Eckankar is presented in the world today.
 I feel like Eckankar has gone the way of Christianity in a sense,
with the worship service etc.  I never did like the worship service..

Last night I had the most amazing inner experience with Paul
Twitchell, which I never had had with Paul before, I just didn't have
that connection.
I can't even begin to tell you what happened, cause I can't remember
even a moment from it, as soon as I came back and I was trying to find
something to write on, it was all melting away so quickly.
But every question I had was answered everything was so clear to me,
it was so amazing.. and so much Love, I was crying my eyes out.
 Wifey heard me and was gonna ask but she didn't want to disturb me,
and I was so wanting to tell what had happened, but I couldn't even
begin to describe it.

The closest I could come to saying anything to her about it today
was :   it was like seeing God .. knowing what God was, but not being
able to come back and tell anyone about it, because the feeling is the
only thing that is left, and even a description of the feeling is not
even close enough to be able to describe..  
I was so grateful to Paul for taking me on this journey.. it was as
short as a heartbeat but as long as a lifetime.. 
I am sure you know what I mean.

I feel that I have had all of my questions answered yet I don't know
what all of the questions even were..

Wifey's brilliant observation is, "now you have that experience and
knowing inside you, maybe your goal is to be able to make that
connection at will in your life time, to be able to achieve that when
you need to....
How smart is she? (not associated with any religious or spiritual
path)

I got a new word.. recently... also, but it's a strange one with not
much beauty in it... 

So.. I am still not sure about Eckankar the organization but I am more
sure about my path and direction.  
I feel perhaps that Paul's Eck path is not the same , it's gone off
path a bit, and  good or bad, I may or may not follow it as it is.

My experience has shown me that no one can take my inner life from me,
I have to have my experiences and the ones that I have are legitimate,
maybe not part of an established path, but my path.

I will hold off judgement for now on Eckankar of today...

Andy"

Ok, that's all I have to say on this matter. I am going to go back
through some of the thread on A.R.E at my leisure.

Thanks to you all for listening to me and responding, on both sides of
the fences.

Andy

Post by Doug
Andy,
One thing I would like to say here is that I do hope you don't feel
that this has anything to do with you failing. Actually, Tian Yue will
probably find this surprising, but I agree with him that over time you
will realize that this was not about failing.
The spiritual path, from my personal experience, starts wherever we
happen to be in life and takes us from there. It always meets us where
we are. It is not about us fitting into an organization or a belief
system, since Spirit fits itself to Soul.
This means we are each guided in a different way. The spiritual path,
whatever you want to call it, is very much an individual path, as you
said.
For me, the lesson has been to always trust my inner self. I don't
always understand why something isn't quite working for me, but I've
come to learn that there was always something important beneath what I
experienced. Over time I change how I see things, looking back, but I
think this is natural to see things differently as we grow. But I
still respect my own reasons for when I did something, even if I
wouldn't do it that way again. I think we should not be so afraid to
make mistakes, but should be bold in going after the things we feel
are right.
I think the most important thing on the spiritual path is to make
conscious choices and to learn from them. If the goal is spiritual
growth, then how can anything we do ever be a failure, if we are
learning?
Take care.
Doug.

Post by AF59
TianYue,
1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me.  I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so
2) I had quite a few inner experiences directly with Darwin Gross, and
also Harold Klemp.
Curiously enough I had never had an inner experience with Paul
Twitchell until last evening.  I won't go into that right now.
I seriously question all the claims that have been made by Darwin and
Harold, and I can honestly say I just don't know.
I know at the time when i listened to Harold and Darwin I felt I was
hearing truth.  I can't help but hear Paul's voice echoing in my head
to question everything, paraphrasing of course.
I also can't help but wonder what Paul would think of Eckankar now...
it's my opinion but it is clearly seems to have lost the individualism
and creativity that seemed to be there at the beginning.  I have read
a few opinions on here of Paul Twitchell so I know that doesn't hold a
lot of water.  I feel that I understand Paul's intentions, as naive as
I may be about that.
Eckankar seems to be boxed up now, and Eckists aren't allowed to work
outside of that box??  Again my opinion but it's not what Paul started
I never had any experiences with the other Masters listed, so since I
haven't had experience I wouldn't be able to say that I honestly
believe in them.
I seem to keep coming back and looking at Eckankar
but i can't seem to get past my big doubts. What does stand out in my
mind is my inner experiences.  Would I have had those without
Eckankar?  Was spirit using those forms to teach me things?  well
yes.. I would say, isn't that how spirit works?
Am I even coming close to answering your question?  lol...
Is Eckankar legitimate?   I'd have to say yes.  In so far as is any
religion legit?
Does Eckankar mean the world to  some? yes it does..  Does it fulfill
a spiritual need for some? Yes...  In my opinion answering yes to both
questions makes it legit
Tianyue
I hope I have answered your questions, I am fighting the TV on in the
background, my kids seeming to want to follow me to every room even
though I am trying to get to some quiet place to honestly answer your
questions.  Mostly for myself no doubt.
Andy

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.
My questions are sincere and not meant to offend, and the fact that I
have said very little in here for the last, I don't know many, years
hopefully would convey to  you that I am not here to
joust.  I was just curious.  I guess I could go back and read all the
threads to find out, but I was just curious.
I left Eckankar for many reasons, one of which I was disillusioned
with the way Eckankar had gone.  It was feeling too much like
Christianity in it's direction.  I didn't all of a sudden pack up and
leave, I dwindled in my activities.  Also, I felt it was more than a
bit  me, the reason for leaving, than it was anything else, it wasn't
working for me.  I wasn't motivated to live the lifestyle that I felt
it was calling for.  I am not a religious person, I can't lead a
religious lifestyle.  Is that a lack of discipline? perhaps.
I was in Eckankar from 1974 till 2004(ish) initiation level,  I guess
as you said, for "what it's worth" not worth mentioning.  I know that
I couldn't regurgitate the "gospel" according to so and so and feel
sincere about it.  I was playing a part that I didn't feel comfortable
with completely.  Kind of felt like what Paul was telling us not to
do...  it is quite evident that a lot of Eckist do exactly that.  The
coined responses to key questions, as if they had no minds of their
own, they just know the appropriate response for the specific
question.  I am not slamming anyone on that, it's the same thing that
anyone in any religion does.  They know they answer according to the
preacher, priest, guru, etc.
I said once in here, that I am not a "mental" person so filling my
head with quotes and verses was not my thing.  I was being groomed for
something I didn't want to do.
I actually was more of a musician.  In fact someone told me that one
of my songs, on one of the CDs is still played at the seminars...
interesting.
I don't feel anger toward Eckankar, I was 14 when I started, perhaps
12 at my introduction, through my Dad, my first initiation was truly
my first spiritual experience of leaving the body (which I don't feel
has to be a spiritual experience anymore-- but that's another
discussion) Darwin was the Master at that time it was quite the real
experience for me.  I understand more clearly all of that now.
Anyway reading all of the posts here and reading Lane's stuff and some
other's is somewhat new to me, so I have questions about all of that.
I can now see clearly how Paul started  Eckankar and perhaps a little
bit about his intentions.  I confess that I am reading Doug's book
right now.  I like the historical perspective, I am taking to heart
that he is definitely coming at it with an Eckist's perspective.  I
accept that, and respect him for that.  I actually appreciate the book
because I feel I am able to balance out a lot of things while reading
this.  Balancing from both sides to be quite honest.
Ok that is where I am coming from.
I have not read about Cults or anything of that nature, I don't
clearly know what you are referring to, but isn't any religion guilty
of putting out information and only information that they feel is what
is "best" for their followers.  I tend to think of all religions as a
cult.
I was not going to ramble here, and here I am doing that... I was
about to go on, but I'll stop here.
Andy

I'm wondering about the meaning of a few of your comments.
1) Do you feel at all as if you failed in Eckankar?
2) Do you still think Eckankar, and the Eck masters (Klemp) were all
that they claimed? Is Eckankar authentic?
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
ok,
Ex Eckist here, I read these posts kind of randomly
I am wondering why there is so much hostility Sharon?
Again, I am EX Eckist, but I don't feel the bitterness that you do.
I am disillusioned , disturbed, kind of without direction, and trying
to sort it all out, but I am not this angry.
What really happened that was so bad to make you feel this way?
I am not slamming you here, that is not my intention, but when it's
time to move on, isn't it just time to move on?
Didn't Eckankar serve a purpose for you, to get you to where you are
now?  Wouldn't that be kind of a good thing?
I am a pretty simple person of thought, please forgive my naivete in
this matter.
Andy

The "move on" notion is usually parroted by members of Eckankar. Can
you tell us why you left? PLease answer, I seriously would like to
know. And how long were you a member, Andy?
When I first left, I suppose I may have made comments like yours, but
over time, I began to realize just how far reaching and irresponsible
the lies of Eckankar really are. It sometimes takes time (perhaps
years) before all the personal ramifications become apparent. It isn't
just some benign path with a few harmless fictions. I was a member
since I was 16, and was a member for 28 years. I was a sixth initiate,
for what it's worth. If you want to know why people feel more strongly
than you, read some books on cults, and cult psychology.
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by SharonBT
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish

...
read more »

[Ken]

Post by AF59
Thanks to anyone who has taken the time to leave me a comment.
I respect everyone's view point and dare I say, there is a piece of
everyone's view point in my viewpoint, if that makes sense. Very
rarely do I find that I can't relate to someone in some way, and I am
never, or at least rarely ever shocked by anyone.
Tian Yue was kind of enough to very plainly ask me questions that made
me think, and at some point maybe I'll be able to answer them better,
I really thank her for that.
JR has a refreshingly down to earth view point on life that I admire.
Doug I think your book is just a spark of your true wisdom and
insight, and I thank you for sharing that.
As JR said this is not for flattery purposes, just voicing my thanks
to you all.
I appear to be coming back to this point time and time again, over the
last five years, and trust me I won't keep draggin' y'all into it. I
don't want to be looking here for answers cause I know my answers are
not "out there somewhere"
However I would love it for just one time someone would say to me
"it's this way"
wouldn't that be nice in a way? but on the other hand, isn't that
what we were all trying to get away from in the first place? Kind of
funny, to me anyway.
I had this incredible inner journey the other night, and I shared it
with my Dad in an email. My Dad has a lifelong membership to
Eckankar and is a good sounding board for me.
I am posting part of it here, mostly because of perspective. I still
consider myself an Ex Eckist at this point but I am still searching in
a sense. Maybe I am not really searching either, I don't know.
Really Doug, I am not trying to butter you up for a free autographed
book or anything (LOL)
"I bought this book online called "Paul Twitchell The Whole Truth" (I
think that's the title)
I've been slowly reading it. It's put out by Doug Marman. I actually
am enjoying reading it and getting a historical perspective on things.
He spends a lot of time addressing all of the bad things that people
are saying about Paul and his plagarisms etc.
I am only one quarter of the way through the book if that much. I
never have been all that much into Paul Twitchell, I have never had
any experiences with any of the other Masters other than who ever was
the current Master..
I am gaining a whole new respect of Paul and what he did, and I can
see the early teachings of Eck very clearly and what Paul was trying
to do, trying to give to the world.
I think I can easily follow Paul's teachings and understand/relate to
them more than I can the way Eckankar is presented in the world today.
I feel like Eckankar has gone the way of Christianity in a sense,
with the worship service etc. I never did like the worship service..
Last night I had the most amazing inner experience with Paul
Twitchell, which I never had had with Paul before, I just didn't have
that connection.
I can't even begin to tell you what happened, cause I can't remember
even a moment from it, as soon as I came back and I was trying to find
something to write on, it was all melting away so quickly.
But every question I had was answered everything was so clear to me,
it was so amazing.. and so much Love, I was crying my eyes out.
Wifey heard me and was gonna ask but she didn't want to disturb me,
and I was so wanting to tell what had happened, but I couldn't even
begin to describe it.
The closest I could come to saying anything to her about it today
was : it was like seeing God .. knowing what God was, but not being
able to come back and tell anyone about it, because the feeling is the
only thing that is left, and even a description of the feeling is not
even close enough to be able to describe..
I was so grateful to Paul for taking me on this journey.. it was as
short as a heartbeat but as long as a lifetime..
I am sure you know what I mean.
I feel that I have had all of my questions answered yet I don't know
what all of the questions even were..
Wifey's brilliant observation is, "now you have that experience and
knowing inside you, maybe your goal is to be able to make that
connection at will in your life time, to be able to achieve that when
you need to....
How smart is she? (not associated with any religious or spiritual
path)
I got a new word.. recently... also, but it's a strange one with not
much beauty in it...
So.. I am still not sure about Eckankar the organization but I am more
sure about my path and direction.
I feel perhaps that Paul's Eck path is not the same , it's gone off
path a bit, and good or bad, I may or may not follow it as it is.
My experience has shown me that no one can take my inner life from me,
I have to have my experiences and the ones that I have are legitimate,
maybe not part of an established path, but my path.
I will hold off judgement for now on Eckankar of today...
Andy"
Ok, that's all I have to say on this matter. I am going to go back
through some of the thread on A.R.E at my leisure.
Thanks to you all for listening to me and responding, on both sides of
the fences.
Andy

Hi Andy.

It seems you are well established on your own path. As I see it the
outer organization is one thing, and the inner spiritual journey
something else entirely. The only reason for the outer being to point
to the inner. That's certainly not a new revelation, but it's something
a lot of the folks who come here after leaving Eckankar seem to believe
current Eckists miss. It's very possible that the best way for you is
not inside organized Eckankar.

Best wishes.

[Doug]

Andy,

Thanks for sharing that experience with Paul.

That is indeed what it is about. Those are the things that change us
from the inside out.

You got one smart wife... <G>

Thanks again.

Doug.

Post by AF59
Thanks to anyone who has taken the time to leave me a comment.
I respect everyone's view point and dare I say, there is a piece of
everyone's view point in my viewpoint, if that makes sense.  Very
rarely do I find that I can't relate to someone in some way, and I am
never, or at least rarely ever shocked by anyone.
Tian Yue was kind of enough to very plainly ask me questions that made
me think, and at some point maybe I'll be able to answer them better,
I really thank her for that.
JR has a refreshingly down to earth view point on life that I admire.
Doug I think  your book is  just a spark of your true  wisdom and
insight, and I thank you for sharing that.
As JR said this is not for flattery purposes, just voicing my thanks
to you all.
I appear to be coming back to this point time and time again, over the
last five years, and trust me I won't keep draggin' y'all into it.  I
don't want to be looking here for answers cause I know my answers are
not "out there somewhere"
However I would love it for just one time someone would say to me
"it's this way"
wouldn't that be nice in a way?  but on the other hand, isn't that
what we were all trying to get away from in the first place?  Kind of
funny, to me anyway.
I had this incredible inner journey the other night, and I shared it
with my Dad  in an email.  My Dad has a lifelong membership to
Eckankar and is a good sounding board for me.
I am posting part of it here, mostly because of perspective.  I still
consider myself an Ex Eckist at this point but I am still searching in
a sense.  Maybe I am not really searching either, I don't know.
Really Doug, I am not trying to butter you up for a free autographed
book or anything (LOL)
"I bought this book online called "Paul Twitchell The Whole Truth"  (I
think that's the title)
I've been slowly reading it.  It's put out by Doug Marman.  I actually
am enjoying reading it and getting a historical perspective on things.
He spends a lot of time addressing all of the bad things that people
are saying about Paul and his plagarisms etc.  
I am only one quarter of the way through the book if that much.  I
never have been all that much into Paul Twitchell, I have never had
any experiences with any of the other Masters other than who ever was
the current Master.. 
I am gaining a whole new respect of Paul and what he did, and I can
see the early teachings of Eck very clearly and what Paul was trying
to do, trying to give to the world.
I think  I can easily follow Paul's teachings and understand/relate to
them more than I can the way Eckankar is presented in the world today.
 I feel like Eckankar has gone the way of Christianity in a sense,
with the worship service etc.  I never did like the worship service..
Last night I had the most amazing inner experience with Paul
Twitchell, which I never had had with Paul before, I just didn't have
that connection.
I can't even begin to tell you what happened, cause I can't remember
even a moment from it, as soon as I came back and I was trying to find
something to write on, it was all melting away so quickly.
But every question I had was answered everything was so clear to me,
it was so amazing.. and so much Love, I was crying my eyes out.
 Wifey  heard me and was gonna ask but she didn't want to disturb me,
and I was so wanting to tell what had happened, but I couldn't even
begin to describe it.
The closest I could come to saying anything to her about it today
was :   it was like seeing God .. knowing what God was, but not being
able to come back and tell anyone about it, because the feeling is the
only thing that is left, and even a description of the feeling is not
even close enough to be able to describe..  
I was so grateful to Paul for taking me on this journey.. it was as
short as a heartbeat but as long as a lifetime.. 
I am sure you know what I mean.
I feel that I have had all of my questions answered yet I don't know
what all of the questions even were..
Wifey's  brilliant observation is, "now you have that experience and
knowing inside you, maybe your goal is to be able to make that
connection at will in your life time, to be able to achieve that when
you need to....
How smart is she?  (not associated with any religious or spiritual
path)
I got a new word.. recently... also, but it's a strange one with not
much beauty in it... 
So.. I am still not sure about Eckankar the organization but I am more
sure about my path and direction.  
I feel perhaps that Paul's Eck path is not the same , it's gone off
path a bit, and  good or bad, I may or may not follow it as it is.
My experience has shown me that no one can take my inner life from me,
I have to have my experiences and the ones that I have are legitimate,
maybe not part of an established path, but my path.
I will hold off judgement for now on Eckankar of today...
Andy"
Ok, that's all I have to say on this matter.  I am going to go back
through some of the thread on A.R.E at my leisure.
Thanks to you all for listening to me and responding, on both sides of
the fences.
Andy

Post by Doug
Andy,
One thing I would like to say here is that I do hope you don't feel
that this has anything to do with you failing. Actually, Tian Yue will
probably find this surprising, but I agree with him that over time you
will realize that this was not about failing.
The spiritual path, from my personal experience, starts wherever we
happen to be in life and takes us from there. It always meets us where
we are. It is not about us fitting into an organization or a belief
system, since Spirit fits itself to Soul.
This means we are each guided in a different way. The spiritual path,
whatever you want to call it, is very much an individual path, as you
said.
For me, the lesson has been to always trust my inner self. I don't
always understand why something isn't quite working for me, but I've
come to learn that there was always something important beneath what I
experienced. Over time I change how I see things, looking back, but I
think this is natural to see things differently as we grow. But I
still respect my own reasons for when I did something, even if I
wouldn't do it that way again. I think we should not be so afraid to
make mistakes, but should be bold in going after the things we feel
are right.
I think the most important thing on the spiritual path is to make
conscious choices and to learn from them. If the goal is spiritual
growth, then how can anything we do ever be a failure, if we are
learning?
Take care.
Doug.

Post by AF59
TianYue,
1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me.  I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so
2) I had quite a few inner experiences directly with Darwin Gross, and
also Harold Klemp.
Curiously enough I had never had an inner experience with Paul
Twitchell until last evening.  I won't go into that right now.
I seriously question all the claims that have been made by Darwin and
Harold, and I can honestly say I just don't know.
I know at the time when i listened to Harold and Darwin I felt I was
hearing truth.  I can't help but hear Paul's voice echoing in my head
to question everything, paraphrasing of course.
I also can't help but wonder what Paul would think of Eckankar now...
it's my opinion but it is clearly seems to have lost the individualism
and creativity that seemed to be there at the beginning.  I have read
a few opinions on here of Paul Twitchell so I know that doesn't hold a
lot of water.  I feel that I understand Paul's intentions, as naive as
I may be about that.
Eckankar seems to be boxed up now, and Eckists aren't allowed to work
outside of that box??  Again my opinion but it's not what Paul started
I never had any experiences with the other Masters listed, so since I
haven't had experience I wouldn't be able to say that I honestly
believe in them.
I seem to keep coming back and looking at Eckankar
but i can't seem to get past my big doubts. What does stand out in my
mind is my inner experiences.  Would I have had those without
Eckankar?  Was spirit using those forms to teach me things?  well
yes.. I would say, isn't that how spirit works?
Am I even coming close to answering your question?  lol...
Is Eckankar legitimate?   I'd have to say yes.  In so far as is any
religion legit?
Does Eckankar mean the world to  some? yes it does..  Does it fulfill
a spiritual need for some? Yes...  In my opinion answering yes to both
questions makes it legit
Tianyue
I hope I have answered your questions, I am fighting the TV on in the
background, my kids seeming to want to follow me to every room even
though I am trying to get to some quiet place to honestly answer your
questions.  Mostly for myself no doubt.
Andy

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.
My questions are sincere and not meant to offend, and the fact that I
have said very little in here for the last, I don't know many, years
hopefully would convey to  you that I am not here to
joust.  I was just curious.  I guess I could go back and read all the
threads to find out, but I was just curious.
I left Eckankar for many reasons, one of which I was disillusioned
with the way Eckankar had gone.  It was feeling too much like
Christianity in it's direction.  I didn't all of a sudden pack up and

...
read more »

[Jasmyn]

Post by AF59
Thanks to anyone who has taken the time to leave me a comment.
I respect everyone's view point and dare I say, there is a piece of
everyone's view point in my viewpoint, if that makes sense. �Very
rarely do I find that I can't relate to someone in some way, and I am
never, or at least rarely ever shocked by anyone.
Tian Yue was kind of enough to very plainly ask me questions that made
me think, and at some point maybe I'll be able to answer them better,
I really thank her for that.
JR has a refreshingly down to earth view point on life that I admire.
Doug I think �your book is �just a spark of your true �wisdom and
insight, and I thank you for sharing that.
As JR said this is not for flattery purposes, just voicing my thanks
to you all.
I appear to be coming back to this point time and time again, over the
last five years, and trust me I won't keep draggin' y'all into it. �I
don't want to be looking here for answers cause I know my answers are
not "out there somewhere"
However I would love it for just one time someone would say to me
"it's this way"
wouldn't that be nice in a way? �but on the other hand, isn't that
what we were all trying to get away from in the first place? �Kind of
funny, to me anyway.
I had this incredible inner journey the other night, and I shared it
with my Dad �in an email. �My Dad has a lifelong membership to
Eckankar and is a good sounding board for me.
I am posting part of it here, mostly because of perspective. �I still
consider myself an Ex Eckist at this point but I am still searching in
a sense. �Maybe I am not really searching either, I don't know.
Really Doug, I am not trying to butter you up for a free autographed
book or anything (LOL)
"I bought this book online called "Paul Twitchell The Whole Truth" �(I
think that's the title)
I've been slowly reading it. �It's put out by Doug Marman. �I actually
am enjoying reading it and getting a historical perspective on things.
He spends a lot of time addressing all of the bad things that people
are saying about Paul and his plagarisms etc. �
I am only one quarter of the way through the book if that much. �I
never have been all that much into Paul Twitchell, I have never had
any experiences with any of the other Masters other than who ever was
the current Master..�
I am gaining a whole new respect of Paul and what he did, and I can
see the early teachings of Eck very clearly and what Paul was trying
to do, trying to give to the world.
I think �I can easily follow Paul's teachings and understand/relate to
them more than I can the way Eckankar is presented in the world today.
�I feel like Eckankar has gone the way of Christianity in a sense,
with the worship service etc. �I never did like the worship service..
Last night I had the most amazing inner experience with Paul
Twitchell, which I never had had with Paul before, I just didn't have
that connection.
I can't even begin to tell you what happened, cause I can't remember
even a moment from it, as soon as I came back and I was trying to find
something to write on, it was all melting away so quickly.
But every question I had was answered everything was so clear to me,
it was so amazing.. and so much Love, I was crying my eyes out.
�Wifey �heard me and was gonna ask but she didn't want to disturb me,
and I was so wanting to tell what had happened, but I couldn't even
begin to describe it.
The closest I could come to saying anything to her about it today
was : � it was like seeing God .. knowing what God was, but not being
able to come back and tell anyone about it, because the feeling is the
only thing that is left, and even a description of the feeling is not
even close enough to be able to describe.. �
I was so grateful to Paul for taking me on this journey.. it was as
short as a heartbeat but as long as a lifetime..�
I am sure you know what I mean.
I feel that I have had all of my questions answered yet I don't know
what all of the questions even were..
Wifey's �brilliant observation is, "now you have that experience and
knowing inside you, maybe your goal is to be able to make that
connection at will in your life time, to be able to achieve that when
you need to....
How smart is she? �(not associated with any religious or spiritual
path)
I got a new word.. recently... also, but it's a strange one with not
much beauty in it...�
So.. I am still not sure about Eckankar the organization but I am more
sure about my path and direction. �
I feel perhaps that Paul's Eck path is not the same , it's gone off
path a bit, and �good or bad, I may or may not follow it as it is.
My experience has shown me that no one can take my inner life from me,
I have to have my experiences and the ones that I have are legitimate,
maybe not part of an established path, but my path.
I will hold off judgement for now on Eckankar of today...
Andy"
Ok, that's all I have to say on this matter. �I am going to go back
through some of the thread on A.R.E at my leisure.
Thanks to you all for listening to me and responding, on both sides of
the fences.
Andy

Post by Doug
One thing I would like to say here is that I do hope you don't feel
that this has anything to do with you failing. Actually, Tian Yue will
probably find this surprising, but I agree with him that over time you
will realize that this was not about failing.
The spiritual path, from my personal experience, starts wherever we
happen to be in life and takes us from there. It always meets us where
we are. It is not about us fitting into an organization or a belief
system, since Spirit fits itself to Soul.
This means we are each guided in a different way. The spiritual path,
whatever you want to call it, is very much an individual path, as you
said.
For me, the lesson has been to always trust my inner self. I don't
always understand why something isn't quite working for me, but I've
come to learn that there was always something important beneath what I
experienced. Over time I change how I see things, looking back, but I
think this is natural to see things differently as we grow. But I
still respect my own reasons for when I did something, even if I
wouldn't do it that way again. I think we should not be so afraid to
make mistakes, but should be bold in going after the things we feel
are right.
I think the most important thing on the spiritual path is to make
conscious choices and to learn from them. If the goal is spiritual
growth, then how can anything we do ever be a failure, if we are
learning?
Take care.
Doug.

Post by AF59
TianYue,
1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me. �I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so
2) I had quite a few inner experiences directly with Darwin Gross, and
also Harold Klemp.
Curiously enough I had never had an inner experience with Paul
Twitchell until last evening. �I won't go into that right now.
I seriously question all the claims that have been made by Darwin and
Harold, and I can honestly say I just don't know.
I know at the time when i listened to Harold and Darwin I felt I was
hearing truth. �I can't help but hear Paul's voice echoing in my head
to question everything, paraphrasing of course.
I also can't help but wonder what Paul would think of Eckankar now...
it's my opinion but it is clearly seems to have lost the individualism
and creativity that seemed to be there at the beginning. �I have read
a few opinions on here of Paul Twitchell so I know that doesn't hold a
lot of water. �I feel that I understand Paul's intentions, as naive as
I may be about that.
Eckankar seems to be boxed up now, and Eckists aren't allowed to work
outside of that box?? �Again my opinion but it's not what Paul started
I never had any experiences with the other Masters listed, so since I
haven't had experience I wouldn't be able to say that I honestly
believe in them.
I seem to keep coming back and looking at Eckankar
but i can't seem to get past my big doubts. What does stand out in my
mind is my inner experiences. �Would I have had those without
Eckankar? �Was spirit using those forms to teach me things? �well
yes.. I would say, isn't that how spirit works?
Am I even coming close to answering your question? �lol...
Is Eckankar legitimate? � I'd have to say yes. �In so far as is any
religion legit?
Does Eckankar mean the world to �some? yes it does.. �Does it fulfill
a spiritual need for some? Yes... �In my opinion answering yes to both
questions makes it legit
Tianyue
I hope I have answered your questions, I am fighting the TV on in the
background, my kids seeming to want to follow me to every room even
though I am trying to get to some quiet place to honestly answer your
questions. �Mostly for myself no doubt.
Andy

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.
My questions are sincere and not meant to offend, and the fact that I
have said very little in here for the last, I don't know many, years
hopefully would convey to �you that I am not here to
joust. �I was just curious. �I guess I could go back and read all the
threads to find out, but I was just curious.
I left Eckankar for many reasons, one of which I was disillusioned
with the way Eckankar had gone. �It was feeling too much like
Christianity in it's direction. �I didn't all of a sudden pack up and
leave, I dwindled in my activities. �Also, I felt it was more than a
bit �me, the reason for leaving, than it was anything else, it wasn't
working for me. �I wasn't motivated to live the lifestyle that I felt
it was calling for. �I am not a religious person, I can't lead a
religious lifestyle. �Is that a lack of discipline? perhaps.
I was in Eckankar from 1974 till 2004(ish) initiation level, �I guess
as you said, for "what it's worth" not worth mentioning. �I know that
I couldn't regurgitate the "gospel" according to so and so and feel
sincere about it. �I was playing a part that I didn't feel comfortable
with completely. �Kind of felt like what Paul was telling us not to
do... �it is quite evident that a lot of Eckist do exactly that. �The
coined responses to key questions, as if they had no minds of their
own, they just know the appropriate response for the specific
question. �I am not slamming anyone on that, it's the same thing that
anyone in any religion does. �They know they answer according to the
preacher, priest, guru, etc.
I said once in here, that I am not a "mental" person so filling my
head with quotes and verses was not my thing. �I was being groomed for
something I didn't want to do.
I actually was more of a musician. �In fact someone told me that one
of my songs, on one of the CDs is still played at the seminars...
interesting.
I don't feel anger toward Eckankar, I was 14 when I started, perhaps
12 at my introduction, through my Dad, my first initiation was truly
my first spiritual experience of leaving the body (which I don't feel
has to be a spiritual experience anymore-- but that's another
discussion) Darwin was the Master at that time it was quite the real
experience for me. �I understand more clearly all of that now.
Anyway reading all of the posts here and reading Lane's stuff and some
other's is somewhat new to me, so I have questions about all of that.
I can now see clearly how Paul started �Eckankar and perhaps a little
bit about his intentions. �I confess that I am reading Doug's book
right now. �I like the historical perspective, I am taking to heart
that he is definitely coming at it with an Eckist's perspective. �I
accept that, and respect him for that. �I actually appreciate the book
because I feel I am able to balance out a lot of things while reading
this. �Balancing from both sides to be quite honest.
Ok that is where I am coming from.
I have not read about Cults or anything of that nature, I don't
clearly know what you are referring to, but isn't any religion guilty
of putting out information and only information that they feel is what
is "best" for their followers. �I tend to think of all religions as a
cult.
I was not going to ramble here, and here I am doing that... I was
about to go on, but I'll stop here.
Andy

I'm wondering about the meaning of a few of your comments.
1) Do you feel at all as if you failed in Eckankar?
2) Do you still think Eckankar, and the Eck masters (Klemp) were all
that they claimed? Is Eckankar authentic?
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
ok,
Ex Eckist here, I read these posts kind of randomly
I am wondering why there is so much hostility Sharon?
Again, I am EX Eckist, but I don't feel the bitterness that you do.
I am disillusioned , disturbed, kind of without direction, and trying
to sort it all out, but I am not this angry.
What really happened that was so bad to make you feel this way?
I am not slamming you here, that is not my intention, but when it's
time to move on, isn't it just time to move on?
Didn't Eckankar serve a purpose for you, to get you to where you are
now? �Wouldn't that be kind of a good thing?
I am a pretty simple person of thought, please forgive my naivete in
this matter.
Andy

The "move on" notion is usually parroted by members of Eckankar. Can
you tell us why you left? PLease answer, I seriously would like to
know. And how long were you a member, Andy?
When I first left, I suppose I may have made comments like yours, but
over time, I began to realize just how far reaching and irresponsible
the lies of Eckankar really are. It sometimes takes time (perhaps
years) before all the personal ramifications become apparent. It isn't
just some benign path with a few harmless fictions. I was a member
since I was 16, and was a member for 28 years. I was a sixth initiate,
for what it's worth. If you want to know why people feel more strongly
than you, read some books on cults, and cult psychology.
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by SharonBT
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish

...
read more �

Andy, I appreciate what you've shared with us, and your wonderful
inner experience with Paul. Those things are hard to talk about, you
expressed it well.

Someone very close to me was raised in Eckankar, and some years ago
left Eckankar. He felt it was no longer the path for him. He
continues to look to Paul's original books on the rare occasion, even
though somehow the present Eckankar doesn't quite mesh with him.

The only reason I tell you this is to say how he's doing now on his
own path and in his life. Though he lives across the country from me,
we talk on the phone a lot, and we were together recently. Each time
I've been with him through the years, he seems to have changed and
moved in consciousness. To me, it seems evident he's moved ahead in
his own spiritual life. Granted, he uses spiritual principles he
learned in Eckankar, and I believe from what he said he still uses the
word "HU", which is such a great gift, HU is for everyone of any path.
And another thing I've noticed is he seems a person who has a lot of
gratitude, always talks about how grateful he is for his family, etc.
So, I think he took the best of what he learned in Eckankar, the
spiritual principles, spiritual laws, about the HU, etc., and made
them a part of himself.

Our inner guides and teachings never stop. Though it's still up to
each individual how they choose to manifest their outer and spiritual
life. We are ultimately responsible for our own path in life which is
the real and only spiritual path, no one can do it for us, whether we
are Eckists or ex-Eckists. Paul Twitchell tried to lay a framework
for teaching us what the spiritual laws of life are and how to apply
them, and how to use the HU for help and upliftment. I think he did
that very well.

Best wishes.

Jasmyn

[TianYue]

Post by AF59
Thanks to anyone who has taken the time to leave me a comment.
I respect everyone's view point and dare I say, there is a piece of
everyone's view point in my viewpoint, if that makes sense.  Very
rarely do I find that I can't relate to someone in some way, and I am
never, or at least rarely ever shocked by anyone.
Tian Yue was kind of enough to very plainly ask me questions that made
me think, and at some point maybe I'll be able to answer them better,
I really thank her for that.
JR has a refreshingly down to earth view point on life that I admire.
Doug I think  your book is  just a spark of your true  wisdom and
insight, and I thank you for sharing that.
As JR said this is not for flattery purposes, just voicing my thanks
to you all.
I appear to be coming back to this point time and time again, over the
last five years, and trust me I won't keep draggin' y'all into it.  I
don't want to be looking here for answers cause I know my answers are
not "out there somewhere"
However I would love it for just one time someone would say to me
"it's this way"
wouldn't that be nice in a way?  but on the other hand, isn't that
what we were all trying to get away from in the first place?  Kind of
funny, to me anyway.
I had this incredible inner journey the other night, and I shared it
with my Dad  in an email.  My Dad has a lifelong membership to
Eckankar and is a good sounding board for me.
I am posting part of it here, mostly because of perspective.  I still
consider myself an Ex Eckist at this point but I am still searching in
a sense.  Maybe I am not really searching either, I don't know.
Really Doug, I am not trying to butter you up for a free autographed
book or anything (LOL)
"I bought this book online called "Paul Twitchell The Whole Truth"  (I
think that's the title)
I've been slowly reading it.  It's put out by Doug Marman.  I actually
am enjoying reading it and getting a historical perspective on things.
He spends a lot of time addressing all of the bad things that people
are saying about Paul and his plagarisms etc.  
I am only one quarter of the way through the book if that much.  I
never have been all that much into Paul Twitchell, I have never had
any experiences with any of the other Masters other than who ever was
the current Master.. 
I am gaining a whole new respect of Paul and what he did, and I can
see the early teachings of Eck very clearly and what Paul was trying
to do, trying to give to the world.
I think  I can easily follow Paul's teachings and understand/relate to
them more than I can the way Eckankar is presented in the world today.
 I feel like Eckankar has gone the way of Christianity in a sense,
with the worship service etc.  I never did like the worship service..
Last night I had the most amazing inner experience with Paul
Twitchell, which I never had had with Paul before, I just didn't have
that connection.
I can't even begin to tell you what happened, cause I can't remember
even a moment from it, as soon as I came back and I was trying to find
something to write on, it was all melting away so quickly.
But every question I had was answered everything was so clear to me,
it was so amazing.. and so much Love, I was crying my eyes out.
 Wifey  heard me and was gonna ask but she didn't want to disturb me,
and I was so wanting to tell what had happened, but I couldn't even
begin to describe it.
The closest I could come to saying anything to her about it today
was :   it was like seeing God .. knowing what God was, but not being
able to come back and tell anyone about it, because the feeling is the
only thing that is left, and even a description of the feeling is not
even close enough to be able to describe..  
I was so grateful to Paul for taking me on this journey.. it was as
short as a heartbeat but as long as a lifetime.. 
I am sure you know what I mean.
I feel that I have had all of my questions answered yet I don't know
what all of the questions even were..
Wifey's  brilliant observation is, "now you have that experience and
knowing inside you, maybe your goal is to be able to make that
connection at will in your life time, to be able to achieve that when
you need to....
How smart is she?  (not associated with any religious or spiritual
path)
I got a new word.. recently... also, but it's a strange one with not
much beauty in it... 
So.. I am still not sure about Eckankar the organization but I am more
sure about my path and direction.  
I feel perhaps that Paul's Eck path is not the same , it's gone off
path a bit, and  good or bad, I may or may not follow it as it is.
My experience has shown me that no one can take my inner life from me,
I have to have my experiences and the ones that I have are legitimate,
maybe not part of an established path, but my path.
I will hold off judgement for now on Eckankar of today...
Andy"
Ok, that's all I have to say on this matter.  I am going to go back
through some of the thread on A.R.E at my leisure.
Thanks to you all for listening to me and responding, on both sides of
the fences.
Andy

Paul was the first Eckankar master I met. In that first encounter, he
was attending a youth meeting of about 50 young people, and I was
lucky enough to have been invited. Those days in Eckankar were without
question a period of greater creative freedom in Eckankar than the
churchy path it has become under Klemp's direction. I think Twitchell
would have choked on the notion of imbuing Eckankar with the
religiosity that is present today.

Anyway, if you think PT is the real deal, go for it. And if Doug's
book is all it takes to answer your doubts, who am I to question?
You've found your way.

As to PT, here's my last "experience" with him, just before I left
Eckankar (click on link):

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/msg/e5853d02d24fe580

Different strokes for different folks. I have no issues with your
reported experience, unless you start posting that your experience is
superior, and mine isn't, or that people who don't accept Doug's wild
spin of the truth and determined avoidance of historical facts are
malcontents and losers who just don't understand.

It's fairly evident that Christians see Jesus with brilliant clarity
while in prayer, Buddhists may see Buddhist lamas in deep meditation,
Rahdasoami followers may see their Sat Guru while meditating. People
see what they desire, even if it's just an image of a saint in the
random texture of a taco. And sometimes it's a mixture of both truth
and projections on the truth, with the subconscious mind re-packaging
the experience in a form that is palatable to one's trained
expectations.

Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by Doug
One thing I would like to say here is that I do hope you don't feel
that this has anything to do with you failing. Actually, Tian Yue will
probably find this surprising, but I agree with him that over time you
will realize that this was not about failing.
The spiritual path, from my personal experience, starts wherever we
happen to be in life and takes us from there. It always meets us where
we are. It is not about us fitting into an organization or a belief
system, since Spirit fits itself to Soul.
This means we are each guided in a different way. The spiritual path,
whatever you want to call it, is very much an individual path, as you
said.
For me, the lesson has been to always trust my inner self. I don't
always understand why something isn't quite working for me, but I've
come to learn that there was always something important beneath what I
experienced. Over time I change how I see things, looking back, but I
think this is natural to see things differently as we grow. But I
still respect my own reasons for when I did something, even if I
wouldn't do it that way again. I think we should not be so afraid to
make mistakes, but should be bold in going after the things we feel
are right.
I think the most important thing on the spiritual path is to make
conscious choices and to learn from them. If the goal is spiritual
growth, then how can anything we do ever be a failure, if we are
learning?
Take care.
Doug.

Post by AF59
TianYue,
1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me.  I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so
2) I had quite a few inner experiences directly with Darwin Gross, and
also Harold Klemp.
Curiously enough I had never had an inner experience with Paul
Twitchell until last evening.  I won't go into that right now.
I seriously question all the claims that have been made by Darwin and
Harold, and I can honestly say I just don't know.
I know at the time when i listened to Harold and Darwin I felt I was
hearing truth.  I can't help but hear Paul's voice echoing in my head
to question everything, paraphrasing of course.
I also can't help but wonder what Paul would think of Eckankar now...
it's my opinion but it is clearly seems to have lost the individualism
and creativity that seemed to be there at the beginning.  I have read
a few opinions on here of Paul Twitchell so I know that doesn't hold a
lot of water.  I feel that I understand Paul's intentions, as naive as
I may be about that.
Eckankar seems to be boxed up now, and Eckists aren't allowed to work
outside of that box??  Again my opinion but it's not what Paul started
I never had any experiences with the other Masters listed, so since I
haven't had experience I wouldn't be able to say that I honestly
believe in them.
I seem to keep coming back and looking at Eckankar
but i can't seem to get past my big doubts. What does stand out in my
mind is my inner experiences.  Would I have had those without
Eckankar?  Was spirit using those forms to teach me things?  well
yes.. I would say, isn't that how spirit works?
Am I even coming close to answering your question?  lol...
Is Eckankar legitimate?   I'd have to say yes.  In so far as is any
religion legit?
Does Eckankar mean the world to  some? yes it does..  Does it fulfill
a spiritual need for some? Yes...  In my opinion answering yes to both
questions makes it legit
Tianyue
I hope I have answered your questions, I am fighting the TV on in the
background, my kids seeming to want to follow me to every room even
though I am trying to get to some quiet place to honestly answer your
questions.  Mostly for myself no doubt.
Andy

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.
My questions are sincere and not meant to offend, and the fact that I
have said very little in here for the last, I don't know many, years
hopefully would convey to  you that I am not here to
joust.  I was just curious.  I guess I could go back and read all the
threads to find out, but I was just curious.
I left Eckankar for many reasons, one of which I was disillusioned
with the way Eckankar had gone.  It was feeling too much like
Christianity in it's direction.  I didn't all of a sudden pack up and
leave, I dwindled in my activities.  Also, I felt it was more than a
bit  me, the reason for leaving, than it was anything else, it wasn't
working for me.  I wasn't motivated to live the lifestyle that I felt
it was calling for.  I am not a religious person, I can't lead a
religious lifestyle.  Is that a lack of discipline? perhaps.
I was in Eckankar from 1974 till 2004(ish) initiation level,  I guess
as you said, for "what it's worth" not worth mentioning.  I know that
I couldn't regurgitate the "gospel" according to so and so and feel
sincere about it.  I was playing a part that I didn't feel comfortable
with completely.  Kind of felt like what Paul was telling us not to
do...  it is quite evident that a lot of Eckist do exactly that.  The
coined responses to key questions, as if they had no minds of their
own, they just know the appropriate response for the specific
question.  I am not slamming anyone on that, it's the same thing that
anyone in any religion does.  They know they answer according to the
preacher, priest, guru, etc.
I said once in here, that I am not a "mental" person so filling my
head with quotes and verses was not my thing.  I was being groomed for
something I didn't want to do.
I actually was more of a musician.  In fact someone told me that one
of my songs, on one of the CDs is still played at the seminars...
interesting.
I don't feel anger toward Eckankar, I was 14 when I started, perhaps
12 at my introduction, through my Dad, my first initiation was truly
my first spiritual experience of leaving the body (which I don't feel
has to be a spiritual experience anymore-- but that's another
discussion) Darwin was the Master at that time it was quite the real
experience for me.  I understand more clearly all of that now.
Anyway reading all of the posts here and reading Lane's stuff and some
other's is somewhat new to me, so I have questions about all of that.
I can now see clearly how Paul started  Eckankar and perhaps a little
bit about his intentions.  I confess that I am reading Doug's book
right now.  I like the historical perspective, I am taking to heart
that he is definitely coming at it with an Eckist's perspective.  I
accept that, and respect him for that.  I actually appreciate the book
because I feel I am able to balance out a lot of things while reading
this.  Balancing from both sides to be quite honest.
Ok that is where I am coming from.
I have not read about Cults or anything of that nature, I don't
clearly know what you are referring to, but isn't any religion guilty
of putting out information and only information that they feel is what
is "best" for their followers.  I tend to think of all religions as a
cult.
I was not going to ramble here, and here I am doing that... I was
about to go on, but I'll stop here.
Andy

I'm wondering about the meaning of a few of your comments.
1) Do you feel at all as if you failed in Eckankar?
2) Do you still think Eckankar, and the Eck masters (Klemp) were all
that they claimed? Is Eckankar authentic?
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
ok,
Ex Eckist here, I read these posts kind of randomly
I am wondering why there is so much hostility Sharon?
Again, I am EX Eckist, but I don't feel the bitterness that you do.
I am disillusioned , disturbed, kind of without direction, and trying
to sort it all out, but I am not this angry.
What really happened that was so bad to make you feel this way?
I am not slamming you here, that is not my intention, but when it's
time to move on, isn't it just time to move on?
Didn't Eckankar serve a purpose for you, to get you to where you are
now?  Wouldn't that be kind of a good thing?
I am a pretty simple person of thought, please forgive my naivete in
this matter.
Andy

The "move on" notion is usually parroted by members of Eckankar. Can
you tell us why you left? PLease answer, I seriously would like to
know. And how long were you a member, Andy?
When I first left, I suppose I may have made comments like yours, but
over time, I began to realize just how far reaching and irresponsible
the lies of Eckankar really are. It sometimes takes time (perhaps
years) before all the personal ramifications become apparent. It isn't
just some benign path with a few harmless fictions. I was a member
since I was 16, and was a member for 28 years. I was a sixth initiate,
for what it's worth. If you want to know why people feel more strongly
than you, read some books on cults, and cult psychology.
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by SharonBT
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish

...
read more »

[TianYue]

I've been busy lately, with not much time to answer posts, but here's
something I thought would add to the discussion.

It's a big red flag when cults make people feel as if they've failed.
In Eckankar, it's widely thought that if you leave, you've failed.
It's a black and white, absolutist view of people being on one side of
the spiritual fence or the other. It's the "us against them"
mentality. This is an entrapping way to define membership. Those who
stay are not failures, but those who leave are. With this tactic,
whenever the student doubts, it's a sign to the student that the
student is lacking awareness. All critical thinking is turned back
onto the follower. If you question, it means you're failing to
understand. If you find flaws in Eckankar, they're your flaws. If you
are disturbed about the meaning of such things as Paul's plagiary,
you're overthinking. You're mental. It's one of the double binds I
mentioned. No matter which way you turn, if it's away from Eckankar,
you've made a wrong turn. With this approach, you can't use reason to
determine anything about Eckankar, because that means you're not
sufficiently aware. In this manner, people become trapped.

I've noticed some here have reached out to you, extending a hand,
since you're in doubt. But sadly, despite what some have said on this
thread, Harold Klemp reveals the rather unkind view commonly held by
Eckists about those who leave:

"Let's look at these three areas that can cause people to leave ECK.

"First is discouragement. It affects those who have an unrealistic
goal in ECK; those who want to Soul Travel or reach Self-and God-
realization with practically no effort. Those who become disheartened
quit ECK for other paths that seem to require less drive and
responsibility of them.

"Anger is the second reason people leave ECK. An angry person thinks
he is always right in his estimation of a situation. When events prove
him wrong, he is quick to invent an argument to explain away his
error. And woe to him who is brash enough to point out the mistake.
Angry people leave ECKANKAR out of impatience. They look for eagle-
winged promotions in ECK, but their selfish ambition is the
acquisition of power. Without power they feel at loss. But the kingdom
of god can only be reached by love.

"Third, people leave ECK for reasons of pride. They may feel the
Master has unfairly given someone else an initiation ahead of them.
Others who have reduced the ECK teachings to a mental formula, finally
grow weary of their mental creation, having mistaken it for what ECK
really is. They say ECKANKAR has nothing for me. Another group of
dropouts is still more unstable. These are the mini-masters and their
cohorts, who for ignoble reasons want a shortcut to fame and fortune.
It never occurs to them that ECK is really a personal walk in the
Sound & Light of God, with little to offer one who covets adoration.
When these conceited ones sense that no lasting position awaits them
in ECKANKAR, they scurry off in other directions to search for
recognition. Also in this third group is one who entertains as greater
opinion of himself than an inspection of his thoughts would seem to
justify. A critic of ECKANKAR , he plays his trump card: Paul
Twitchell's statement that ECKANKAR is not a system of metaphysics,
philosophy, or religion. He skips over references Paul made to ECK as
the new-old religion."

From WISDOM OF THE HEART, Book 2, by Sri Harold Klemp, Chapter 27, p.
132

Post by AF59
TianYue,
1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me.  I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so
2) I had quite a few inner experiences directly with Darwin Gross, and
also Harold Klemp.
Curiously enough I had never had an inner experience with Paul
Twitchell until last evening.  I won't go into that right now.
I seriously question all the claims that have been made by Darwin and
Harold, and I can honestly say I just don't know.
I know at the time when i listened to Harold and Darwin I felt I was
hearing truth.  I can't help but hear Paul's voice echoing in my head
to question everything, paraphrasing of course.
I also can't help but wonder what Paul would think of Eckankar now...
it's my opinion but it is clearly seems to have lost the individualism
and creativity that seemed to be there at the beginning.  I have read
a few opinions on here of Paul Twitchell so I know that doesn't hold a
lot of water.  I feel that I understand Paul's intentions, as naive as
I may be about that.
Eckankar seems to be boxed up now, and Eckists aren't allowed to work
outside of that box??  Again my opinion but it's not what Paul started
I never had any experiences with the other Masters listed, so since I
haven't had experience I wouldn't be able to say that I honestly
believe in them.
I seem to keep coming back and looking at Eckankar
but i can't seem to get past my big doubts. What does stand out in my
mind is my inner experiences.  Would I have had those without
Eckankar?  Was spirit using those forms to teach me things?  well
yes.. I would say, isn't that how spirit works?
Am I even coming close to answering your question?  lol...
Is Eckankar legitimate?   I'd have to say yes.  In so far as is any
religion legit?
Does Eckankar mean the world to  some? yes it does..  Does it fulfill
a spiritual need for some? Yes...  In my opinion answering yes to both
questions makes it legit
Tianyue
I hope I have answered your questions, I am fighting the TV on in the
background, my kids seeming to want to follow me to every room even
though I am trying to get to some quiet place to honestly answer your
questions.  Mostly for myself no doubt.
Andy

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.
My questions are sincere and not meant to offend, and the fact that I
have said very little in here for the last, I don't know many, years
hopefully would convey to  you that I am not here to
joust.  I was just curious.  I guess I could go back and read all the
threads to find out, but I was just curious.
I left Eckankar for many reasons, one of which I was disillusioned
with the way Eckankar had gone.  It was feeling too much like
Christianity in it's direction.  I didn't all of a sudden pack up and
leave, I dwindled in my activities.  Also, I felt it was more than a
bit  me, the reason for leaving, than it was anything else, it wasn't
working for me.  I wasn't motivated to live the lifestyle that I felt
it was calling for.  I am not a religious person, I can't lead a
religious lifestyle.  Is that a lack of discipline? perhaps.
I was in Eckankar from 1974 till 2004(ish) initiation level,  I guess
as you said, for "what it's worth" not worth mentioning.  I know that
I couldn't regurgitate the "gospel" according to so and so and feel
sincere about it.  I was playing a part that I didn't feel comfortable
with completely.  Kind of felt like what Paul was telling us not to
do...  it is quite evident that a lot of Eckist do exactly that.  The
coined responses to key questions, as if they had no minds of their
own, they just know the appropriate response for the specific
question.  I am not slamming anyone on that, it's the same thing that
anyone in any religion does.  They know they answer according to the
preacher, priest, guru, etc.
I said once in here, that I am not a "mental" person so filling my
head with quotes and verses was not my thing.  I was being groomed for
something I didn't want to do.
I actually was more of a musician.  In fact someone told me that one
of my songs, on one of the CDs is still played at the seminars...
interesting.
I don't feel anger toward Eckankar, I was 14 when I started, perhaps
12 at my introduction, through my Dad, my first initiation was truly
my first spiritual experience of leaving the body (which I don't feel
has to be a spiritual experience anymore-- but that's another
discussion) Darwin was the Master at that time it was quite the real
experience for me.  I understand more clearly all of that now.
Anyway reading all of the posts here and reading Lane's stuff and some
other's is somewhat new to me, so I have questions about all of that.
I can now see clearly how Paul started  Eckankar and perhaps a little
bit about his intentions.  I confess that I am reading Doug's book
right now.  I like the historical perspective, I am taking to heart
that he is definitely coming at it with an Eckist's perspective.  I
accept that, and respect him for that.  I actually appreciate the book
because I feel I am able to balance out a lot of things while reading
this.  Balancing from both sides to be quite honest.
Ok that is where I am coming from.
I have not read about Cults or anything of that nature, I don't
clearly know what you are referring to, but isn't any religion guilty
of putting out information and only information that they feel is what
is "best" for their followers.  I tend to think of all religions as a
cult.
I was not going to ramble here, and here I am doing that... I was
about to go on, but I'll stop here.
Andy

I'm wondering about the meaning of a few of your comments.
1) Do you feel at all as if you failed in Eckankar?
2) Do you still think Eckankar, and the Eck masters (Klemp) were all
that they claimed? Is Eckankar authentic?
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
ok,
Ex Eckist here, I read these posts kind of randomly
I am wondering why there is so much hostility Sharon?
Again, I am EX Eckist, but I don't feel the bitterness that you do.
I am disillusioned , disturbed, kind of without direction, and trying
to sort it all out, but I am not this angry.
What really happened that was so bad to make you feel this way?
I am not slamming you here, that is not my intention, but when it's
time to move on, isn't it just time to move on?
Didn't Eckankar serve a purpose for you, to get you to where you are
now?  Wouldn't that be kind of a good thing?
I am a pretty simple person of thought, please forgive my naivete in
this matter.
Andy

The "move on" notion is usually parroted by members of Eckankar. Can
you tell us why you left? PLease answer, I seriously would like to
know. And how long were you a member, Andy?
When I first left, I suppose I may have made comments like yours, but
over time, I began to realize just how far reaching and irresponsible
the lies of Eckankar really are. It sometimes takes time (perhaps
years) before all the personal ramifications become apparent. It isn't
just some benign path with a few harmless fictions. I was a member
since I was 16, and was a member for 28 years. I was a sixth initiate,
for what it's worth. If you want to know why people feel more strongly
than you, read some books on cults, and cult psychology.
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by SharonBT
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish the very best
information in the eckbooks, since that's where most members get the
most information.  Perhaps he was transmitting "ecology & convention
facilities" on the inner, but I didn't get it.  <gg>
Levels?   So, on which levels do you think the different eckcuses fit?
Is it "higher" or "lower" to believe in evil psychic forces which
evidently threaten to overpower eckies who would gather in the area?
So maybe keeping eckies of all initiations away from Sedona was the
way "the master" was protecting them?  You know, sort of the way your
ID card protects you from dying in your sleep from what might look
like a heart attack but is really because you were attacked by evil
witches & warlocks?  (See:  http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html
)
South American politics pushing people into overpopulated Mexico &
then into the US?   I wonder what the real statistics are?   I know
people from several South American countries who came to the US many
years ago.  They skipped Mexico & came straight to the US, usually by
plane.  One took a boat.  Actually, a big ship.   Maybe Klemp just
meant poor people on foot?
Oh, just had a thought - did Klemp tell you there weren't adequate
convention facilities before or after ekult lost the court fight for
Helen Frye's land?   Hmmm....thinking of the timing, it must've been
afterwards since Darwin was in power when that went to court.
A thought.....my mind tends to wander....if Klemp is so concerned
about ecology, isn't messing with the weather affecting the ecology?
I remember reading The Word of THE ECK about how the move from CA to
MN changed the weather, and another story where sending out a lot of
pink initiation slips caused a heat wave in MN.   I remember a winter
hot spell back in the 80's.  I lost quite a few beautiful rose
bushes.
And evidently another reason the Klempster didn't mention to the
members, although I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned it to you
but you just didn't mention it, was non-profit tax laws or whatever
are better in MN than in either AZ or CA?
Is is better tax-wise to be a "religion" or just a non-profit?   Just
wondering here...mind wandering.....now, many of us remember back when
it seemed like every newsletter was announcing a new "official blurb"
- "Spiritual Path", "Way of Life", "New-Age Religion", I kept losing
track & not being able to remember, but thought the "Religion of the
Light & Sound of God" was long & a bit awkward.
Actually, Doug, I *am* interested in an answer - but the kind of
"answer" you did with Twitch's plagiarism/literarytheft.   You know,
one of your long squirmy soporific "whole truth" things!!   Or what
you used to do with Lurk, keeping him off-track and away from the real
& serious issues of ekult's lies and deceptions, with your distracting
smooth-salesman "dialogues".
Hey, back when I was an eckie you were a really "high" initiate, RESA,
ESA, all that other stuff - you must be *really* HI-er now!!!    Like,
a 10th or 11th?
How long have you & Klemp been buddies?   Did you become friends when
he was married to Marge & working in the darkroom?   Wow, that's
another thing I wondered about when I was an eckist, how "The Master"
kept the chelas balanced, but Marge couldn't handle his power flows so
they had to divorce?   Yep, most wives have a problem with those
"power flows" when their husband is having an affair with one of the
office girls.
Okay, I've been buzzing around here long enough.....yes, I'll tell my
True Master you said hi!!   Those were the days, weren't they!!!
A.R.E. used to be a lot more fun, and I had a rollicking good
time!!!    <giggle>
SHARON
PS - Hey, Etznab - I just noticed, I'm "replying" from Google, right
up above between the "newsgroups" and text boxes you can "AddCc, Add

...
read more »

[AF59]

Post by TianYue
I've been busy lately, with not much time to answer posts, but here's
something I thought would add to the discussion.
It's a big red flag when cults make people feel as if they've failed.
In Eckankar, it's widely thought that if you leave, you've failed.
It's a black and white, absolutist view of people being on one side of
the spiritual fence or the other. It's the "us against them"
mentality. This is an entrapping way to define membership. Those who
stay are not failures, but those who leave are. With this tactic,
whenever the student doubts, it's a sign to the student that the
student is lacking awareness. All critical thinking is turned back
onto the follower. If you question, it means you're failing to
understand. If you find flaws in Eckankar, they're your flaws. If you
are disturbed about the meaning of such things as Paul's plagiary,
you're overthinking. You're mental.  It's one of the double binds I
mentioned. No matter which way you turn, if it's away from Eckankar,
you've made a wrong turn. With this approach, you can't use reason to
determine anything about Eckankar, because that means you're not
sufficiently aware. In this manner, people become trapped.
I've noticed some here have reached out to you, extending a hand,
since you're in doubt. But sadly, despite what some have said on this
thread, Harold Klemp reveals the rather unkind view commonly held by
"Let's look at these three areas that can cause people to leave ECK.
"First is discouragement. It affects those who have an unrealistic
goal in ECK; those who want to Soul Travel or reach Self-and God-
realization with practically no effort. Those who become disheartened
quit ECK for other paths that seem to require less drive and
responsibility of them.
"Anger is the second reason people leave ECK. An angry person thinks
he is always right in his estimation of a situation. When events prove
him wrong, he is quick to invent an argument to explain away his
error. And woe to him who is brash enough to point out the mistake.
Angry people leave ECKANKAR out of impatience. They look for eagle-
winged promotions in ECK, but their selfish ambition is the
acquisition of power. Without power they feel at loss. But the kingdom
of god can only be reached by love.
"Third, people leave ECK for reasons of pride. They may feel the
Master has unfairly given someone else an initiation ahead of them.
Others who have reduced the ECK teachings to a mental formula, finally
grow weary of their mental creation, having mistaken it for what ECK
really is. They say ECKANKAR has nothing for me. Another group of
dropouts is still more unstable. These are the mini-masters and their
cohorts, who for ignoble reasons want a shortcut to fame and fortune.
It never occurs to them that ECK is really a personal walk in the
Sound & Light of God, with little to offer one who covets adoration.
When these conceited ones sense that no lasting position awaits them
in ECKANKAR, they scurry off in other directions to search for
recognition. Also in this third group is one who entertains as greater
opinion of himself than an inspection of his thoughts would seem to
justify. A critic of ECKANKAR , he plays his trump card: Paul
Twitchell's statement that ECKANKAR is not a system of metaphysics,
philosophy, or religion. He skips over references Paul made to ECK as
the new-old religion."
From WISDOM OF THE HEART, Book 2, by Sri Harold Klemp, Chapter 27, p.
132

Post by AF59
TianYue,
1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me.  I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so
2) I had quite a few inner experiences directly with Darwin Gross, and
also Harold Klemp.
Curiously enough I had never had an inner experience with Paul
Twitchell until last evening.  I won't go into that right now.
I seriously question all the claims that have been made by Darwin and
Harold, and I can honestly say I just don't know.
I know at the time when i listened to Harold and Darwin I felt I was
hearing truth.  I can't help but hear Paul's voice echoing in my head
to question everything, paraphrasing of course.
I also can't help but wonder what Paul would think of Eckankar now...
it's my opinion but it is clearly seems to have lost the individualism
and creativity that seemed to be there at the beginning.  I have read
a few opinions on here of Paul Twitchell so I know that doesn't hold a
lot of water.  I feel that I understand Paul's intentions, as naive as
I may be about that.
Eckankar seems to be boxed up now, and Eckists aren't allowed to work
outside of that box??  Again my opinion but it's not what Paul started
I never had any experiences with the other Masters listed, so since I
haven't had experience I wouldn't be able to say that I honestly
believe in them.
I seem to keep coming back and looking at Eckankar
but i can't seem to get past my big doubts. What does stand out in my
mind is my inner experiences.  Would I have had those without
Eckankar?  Was spirit using those forms to teach me things?  well
yes.. I would say, isn't that how spirit works?
Am I even coming close to answering your question?  lol...
Is Eckankar legitimate?   I'd have to say yes.  In so far as is any
religion legit?
Does Eckankar mean the world to  some? yes it does..  Does it fulfill
a spiritual need for some? Yes...  In my opinion answering yes to both
questions makes it legit
Tianyue
I hope I have answered your questions, I am fighting the TV on in the
background, my kids seeming to want to follow me to every room even
though I am trying to get to some quiet place to honestly answer your
questions.  Mostly for myself no doubt.
Andy

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.
My questions are sincere and not meant to offend, and the fact that I
have said very little in here for the last, I don't know many, years
hopefully would convey to  you that I am not here to
joust.  I was just curious.  I guess I could go back and read all the
threads to find out, but I was just curious.
I left Eckankar for many reasons, one of which I was disillusioned
with the way Eckankar had gone.  It was feeling too much like
Christianity in it's direction.  I didn't all of a sudden pack up and
leave, I dwindled in my activities.  Also, I felt it was more than a
bit  me, the reason for leaving, than it was anything else, it wasn't
working for me.  I wasn't motivated to live the lifestyle that I felt
it was calling for.  I am not a religious person, I can't lead a
religious lifestyle.  Is that a lack of discipline? perhaps.
I was in Eckankar from 1974 till 2004(ish) initiation level,  I guess
as you said, for "what it's worth" not worth mentioning.  I know that
I couldn't regurgitate the "gospel" according to so and so and feel
sincere about it.  I was playing a part that I didn't feel comfortable
with completely.  Kind of felt like what Paul was telling us not to
do...  it is quite evident that a lot of Eckist do exactly that.  The
coined responses to key questions, as if they had no minds of their
own, they just know the appropriate response for the specific
question.  I am not slamming anyone on that, it's the same thing that
anyone in any religion does.  They know they answer according to the
preacher, priest, guru, etc.
I said once in here, that I am not a "mental" person so filling my
head with quotes and verses was not my thing.  I was being groomed for
something I didn't want to do.
I actually was more of a musician.  In fact someone told me that one
of my songs, on one of the CDs is still played at the seminars...
interesting.
I don't feel anger toward Eckankar, I was 14 when I started, perhaps
12 at my introduction, through my Dad, my first initiation was truly
my first spiritual experience of leaving the body (which I don't feel
has to be a spiritual experience anymore-- but that's another
discussion) Darwin was the Master at that time it was quite the real
experience for me.  I understand more clearly all of that now.
Anyway reading all of the posts here and reading Lane's stuff and some
other's is somewhat new to me, so I have questions about all of that.
I can now see clearly how Paul started  Eckankar and perhaps a little
bit about his intentions.  I confess that I am reading Doug's book
right now.  I like the historical perspective, I am taking to heart
that he is definitely coming at it with an Eckist's perspective.  I
accept that, and respect him for that.  I actually appreciate the book
because I feel I am able to balance out a lot of things while reading
this.  Balancing from both sides to be quite honest.
Ok that is where I am coming from.
I have not read about Cults or anything of that nature, I don't
clearly know what you are referring to, but isn't any religion guilty
of putting out information and only information that they feel is what
is "best" for their followers.  I tend to think of all religions as a
cult.
I was not going to ramble here, and here I am doing that... I was
about to go on, but I'll stop here.

I think referencing quotes from authors is sometimes confusing because
the reader, depending on his/her state of consciousness will read that
and either agree with you or think that you are proving the point of
your oposition

Andy

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
Andy

I'm wondering about the meaning of a few of your comments.
1) Do you feel at all as if you failed in Eckankar?
2) Do you still think Eckankar, and the Eck masters (Klemp) were all
that they

...
read more »

[TianYue]

Post by TianYue
I've been busy lately, with not much time to answer posts, but here's

Post by TianYue
something I thought would add to the discussion.
It's a big red flag when cults make people feel as if they've failed.
In Eckankar, it's widely thought that if you leave, you've failed.
It's a black and white, absolutist view of people being on one side of
the spiritual fence or the other. It's the "us against them"
mentality. This is an entrapping way to define membership. Those who
stay are not failures, but those who leave are. With this tactic,
whenever the student doubts, it's a sign to the student that the
student is lacking awareness. All critical thinking is turned back
onto the follower. If you question, it means you're failing to
understand. If you find flaws in Eckankar, they're your flaws. If you
are disturbed about the meaning of such things as Paul's plagiary,
you're overthinking. You're mental.  It's one of the double binds I
mentioned. No matter which way you turn, if it's away from Eckankar,
you've made a wrong turn. With this approach, you can't use reason to
determine anything about Eckankar, because that means you're not
sufficiently aware. In this manner, people become trapped.
I've noticed some here have reached out to you, extending a hand,
since you're in doubt. But sadly, despite what some have said on this
thread, Harold Klemp reveals the rather unkind view commonly held by
"Let's look at these three areas that can cause people to leave ECK.
"First is discouragement. It affects those who have an unrealistic
goal in ECK; those who want to Soul Travel or reach Self-and God-
realization with practically no effort. Those who become disheartened
quit ECK for other paths that seem to require less drive and
responsibility of them.
"Anger is the second reason people leave ECK. An angry person thinks
he is always right in his estimation of a situation. When events prove
him wrong, he is quick to invent an argument to explain away his
error. And woe to him who is brash enough to point out the mistake.
Angry people leave ECKANKAR out of impatience. They look for eagle-
winged promotions in ECK, but their selfish ambition is the
acquisition of power. Without power they feel at loss. But the kingdom
of god can only be reached by love.
"Third, people leave ECK for reasons of pride. They may feel the
Master has unfairly given someone else an initiation ahead of them.
Others who have reduced the ECK teachings to a mental formula, finally
grow weary of their mental creation, having mistaken it for what ECK
really is. They say ECKANKAR has nothing for me. Another group of
dropouts is still more unstable. These are the mini-masters and their
cohorts, who for ignoble reasons want a shortcut to fame and fortune.
It never occurs to them that ECK is really a personal walk in the
Sound & Light of God, with little to offer one who covets adoration.
When these conceited ones sense that no lasting position awaits them
in ECKANKAR, they scurry off in other directions to search for
recognition. Also in this third group is one who entertains as greater
opinion of himself than an inspection of his thoughts would seem to
justify. A critic of ECKANKAR , he plays his trump card: Paul
Twitchell's statement that ECKANKAR is not a system of metaphysics,
philosophy, or religion. He skips over references Paul made to ECK as
the new-old religion."
From WISDOM OF THE HEART, Book 2, by Sri Harold Klemp, Chapter 27, p.
132

I think referencing quotes from authors is sometimes confusing because
the reader, depending on his/her state of consciousness will read that
and either agree with you or think that you are proving the point of
your oposition
Andy

Sorry, but I don't really understand the reason for your comment. I
first mentioned how Eckankar declares former members to be failures or
spiritually flawed people who have fallen away from truth, and then I
posted one excerpt that serves as an excellent example of that view. I
don't see how anyone would become confused and think that proves the
point of my "opposition."

There are countless other examples of both PT and HK making negative
comments about former members. Perhaps I'll post a few more, time
permitting, for the general readership.

And not only do these Eck leaders denounce former members, they also
elevate the members of Eckankar to special status, declaring them to
be the "chosen few" who have evolved beyond all others. With such
rhetoric, it's not hard to understand why Eckists would perceive
themselves as failures if they don't feel as if they are keeping step
with their Eckist companions.

The odd thing is, a close look at the Eck masters reveals even their
"experiences" aren't exactly free of flaws and failure. Take PT's
predictions, for example. He was mostly wrong in everything he
predicted. He failed to appoint a successor before he died, which is
peculiar for a person who is supposed to be able to foresee the
future. There are many other similar examples that reveal they aren't
as prescient and omniscient as they would have us all believe. So, if
even Eck masters "fail," how can the followers claim to be any better?
It isn't the followers who are flawed; it's the path they're
following.

All of this leads to me to ask a question: Do you agree with Harold
Klemp's views as expressed in the excerpts? Are Klemp's "three areas"
the major causes of why people leave Eckankar? Or is it just a
defensive attack on those who leave, as if leaving is an insult to all
that Klemp believes.

As to spiritual experiences validating Eckankar, I'd say there is a
bit of circular logic in that notion. Eckankar provides no useful
criteria to determine if an experience is valid or not, other than
"challenging" the experience with a "charged word" which, not
surprisingly, is the Masters name, such as "Wah Z.". Eckankar
essentially drums into the follower's head that all inner experiences
are real. It mesmerizes the follower with such methods as chanting the
name of the master, and gazing at an imagined image of the master with
eyes closed. It gets the follower deliberately trying to have dreams
of the masters. When through the continued power of suggestion over a
period of months and years, the student not surprisingly begins to
dream of Eck masters, the student unquestioningly accepts the dream as
validation of Eckankar, no matter that it may be self-induced through
suggestion. Oddly, if the same student dreams of something that might
invalidate eckankar, such dreams are rationalized as being Kal
influences or caused by negative entities or other rationalizations.

It's well known that lucid dreaming can be deliberately generated, and
one can program through intense suggestion over days and weeks any
dream experience one would like. One book about lucid dreaming offers
as an example experiencing lucid dream sex with Marilyn Monroe with
the use of lucid dream exercises! And it doesn't have to be a dream.
One can achieve similar effects while waking, while in a deep state of
self induced auto-hypnosis, which is can be very similar, if not
identical, to deep meditation.

So, the problem with spiritual experiences is that the only criteria
for determining whether they are real or not seems to be as follows:

1) If the experience is positive about Eckankar, it's real, and should
be accepted without doubt.

2) If the experience is negative about Eckankar, it is not real, and
may be a kal trick or some negative impulse from Mind, or the lower
Kal worlds.

So, here's the essential point I'm making: With this sort of circular
logic, a double bind is created that the follower has trouble escaping
from. With this pseudo-logic, everything is affirming of Eckankar,
even if it isn't. By creating such a double bind, the loyal follower
is left with only one conclusion if he or she isn't having experiences
according to the Eckankar model: The follower is flawed and
spiritually un-evolved. If the follower does have "experiences" with
masters, then the follower is thought to be successful, ignoring the
possibility the follower is just more suggestible than average.
(Remember Klemp thinking he would lift the airport fog if he disrobed
in public? That is an example of a person highly prone to
suggestibility, if not downright deluded and psychotic). This is a
particularly insidious and malevolent mind-game to inflict upon the
trusting devotee, but this is exactly what Eckankar does. And even
Klemp wasn't exempt while he was working his way through the ranks.

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying there aren't genuine spiritual
experiences one could have by using the exercises in Eckankar. Such
exercises are not at all dissimilar from exercises taught by other
groups. Doing those exercises could produce a real experience. But it
isn't Eckankar that produced the experience, rather, it is the
individual practicing a common technique shared by many yogic groups.
One could have spiritual experiences no matter which group one
followed. So spiritual experiences don't prove Eckankar is real. I had
experiences before and after becoming a member of Eckankar, and some
after having left Eckankar. Some were real, some weren't. I'm now
wiser about how to tell the difference.

Tianyue

Post by TianYue

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
TianYue,
1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me.  I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so
2) I had quite a few inner experiences directly with Darwin Gross, and
also Harold Klemp.
Curiously enough I had never had an inner experience with Paul
Twitchell until last evening.  I won't go into that right now.
I seriously question all the claims that have been made by Darwin and
Harold, and I can honestly say I just don't know.
I know at the time when i listened to Harold and Darwin I felt I was
hearing truth.  I can't help but hear Paul's voice echoing in my head
to question everything, paraphrasing of course.
I also can't help but wonder what Paul would think of Eckankar now...
it's my opinion but it is clearly seems to have lost the individualism
and creativity that seemed to be there at the beginning.  I have read
a few opinions on here of Paul Twitchell so I know that doesn't hold a
lot of water.  I feel that I understand Paul's intentions, as naive as
I may be about that.
Eckankar seems to be boxed up now, and Eckists aren't allowed to work
outside of that box??  Again my opinion but it's not what Paul started
I never had any experiences with the other Masters listed, so since I
haven't had experience I wouldn't be able to say that I honestly
believe in them.
I seem to keep coming back and looking at Eckankar
but i can't seem to get past my big doubts. What does stand out in my
mind is my inner experiences.  Would I have had those without
Eckankar?  Was spirit using those forms to teach me things?  well
yes.. I would say, isn't that how spirit works?
Am I even coming close to answering your question?  lol...
Is Eckankar legitimate?   I'd have to say yes.  In so far as is any
religion legit?
Does Eckankar mean the world to  some? yes it does..  Does it fulfill
a spiritual need for some? Yes...  In my opinion answering yes to both
questions makes it legit
Tianyue
I hope I have answered your questions, I am fighting the TV on in the
background, my kids seeming to want to follow me to every room even
though I am trying to get to some quiet place to honestly answer your
questions.  Mostly for myself no doubt.
Andy

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.
My questions are sincere and not meant to offend, and the fact that I
have said very little in here for the last, I don't know many, years
hopefully would convey to  you that I am not here to
joust.  I was just curious.  I guess I could go back and read all the
threads to find out, but I was just curious.
I left Eckankar for many reasons, one of which I was disillusioned
with the way Eckankar had gone.  It was feeling too much like
Christianity in it's direction.  I didn't all of a sudden pack up and
leave, I dwindled in my activities.  Also, I felt it was more than a
bit  me, the reason for leaving, than it was anything else, it wasn't
working for me.  I wasn't motivated to live the lifestyle that I felt
it was calling for.  I am not a religious person, I can't lead a
religious lifestyle.  Is that a lack of discipline? perhaps.
I was in Eckankar from 1974 till 2004(ish) initiation level,  I guess
as you said, for "what it's worth" not worth mentioning.  I know that
I couldn't regurgitate the "gospel" according to so and so and feel
sincere about it.  I was playing a part that I didn't feel comfortable
with completely.  Kind of felt like what Paul was telling us not to
do...  it is quite evident that a lot of Eckist do exactly that.  The
coined responses to key questions, as if they had no minds of their
own, they just know the appropriate response for the specific
question.  I am not slamming anyone on that, it's the same thing that
anyone in any religion does.  They know they answer according to the
preacher, priest, guru, etc.
I said once in here, that I am not a "mental" person so filling my
head with quotes and verses was not my thing.  I was being groomed for
something I didn't want to do.
I actually was more of a musician.  In fact someone told me that one
of my songs, on one of the CDs is still played at the seminars...
interesting.
I don't feel anger toward Eckankar, I was 14 when I started, perhaps
12 at my introduction, through my Dad, my first initiation was truly
my first spiritual experience of leaving the body (which I don't feel
has to be a spiritual experience anymore-- but that's another
discussion) Darwin was the Master at that time it was quite the real
experience for me.  I understand more clearly all of that now.
Anyway reading all of the posts here and reading Lane's stuff and some
other's is somewhat new to me, so I have questions about all of that.
I can now see clearly how Paul started  Eckankar and perhaps a little
bit about his intentions.  I confess that I am reading Doug's book
right now.  I like the historical perspective, I am taking to heart
that he is definitely coming at it with an Eckist's perspective.  I
accept that, and respect him for that.  I actually appreciate the book
because I feel I am able to balance out a lot of things while reading
this.  Balancing from both sides to be quite honest.
Ok that is where I am coming from.
I have not read about Cults or anything of that nature, I don't
clearly know what you are referring to, but isn't any religion guilty
of putting out information and only information that they feel is what
is "best" for their followers.  I tend to think of all religions as a
cult.
I was not going to ramble here, and here I am doing that... I was
about to go on, but I'll stop here.

I think referencing quotes from authors is sometimes confusing because
the reader, depending on his/her state of consciousness will read that
and either agree with you or think that you are proving the point of
your oposition
Andy> > > > Andy

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59

Post by TianYue
I'm wondering about the meaning of a few of your comments.
1) Do you feel at all as if you failed in Eckankar?
2) Do you still think Eckankar, and the Eck masters (Klemp) were all
that they

...
read more »

[TianYue]

Post by TianYue

Post by TianYue
I've been busy lately, with not much time to answer posts, but here's

Post by TianYue
something I thought would add to the discussion.
It's a big red flag when cults make people feel as if they've failed.
In Eckankar, it's widely thought that if you leave, you've failed.
It's a black and white, absolutist view of people being on one side of
the spiritual fence or the other. It's the "us against them"
mentality. This is an entrapping way to define membership. Those who
stay are not failures, but those who leave are. With this tactic,
whenever the student doubts, it's a sign to the student that the
student is lacking awareness. All critical thinking is turned back
onto the follower. If you question, it means you're failing to
understand. If you find flaws in Eckankar, they're your flaws. If you
are disturbed about the meaning of such things as Paul's plagiary,
you're overthinking. You're mental.  It's one of the double binds I
mentioned. No matter which way you turn, if it's away from Eckankar,
you've made a wrong turn. With this approach, you can't use reason to
determine anything about Eckankar, because that means you're not
sufficiently aware. In this manner, people become trapped.
I've noticed some here have reached out to you, extending a hand,
since you're in doubt. But sadly, despite what some have said on this
thread, Harold Klemp reveals the rather unkind view commonly held by
"Let's look at these three areas that can cause people to leave ECK.
"First is discouragement. It affects those who have an unrealistic
goal in ECK; those who want to Soul Travel or reach Self-and God-
realization with practically no effort. Those who become disheartened
quit ECK for other paths that seem to require less drive and
responsibility of them.
"Anger is the second reason people leave ECK. An angry person thinks
he is always right in his estimation of a situation. When events prove
him wrong, he is quick to invent an argument to explain away his
error. And woe to him who is brash enough to point out the mistake.
Angry people leave ECKANKAR out of impatience. They look for eagle-
winged promotions in ECK, but their selfish ambition is the
acquisition of power. Without power they feel at loss. But the kingdom
of god can only be reached by love.
"Third, people leave ECK for reasons of pride. They may feel the
Master has unfairly given someone else an initiation ahead of them.
Others who have reduced the ECK teachings to a mental formula, finally
grow weary of their mental creation, having mistaken it for what ECK
really is. They say ECKANKAR has nothing for me. Another group of
dropouts is still more unstable. These are the mini-masters and their
cohorts, who for ignoble reasons want a shortcut to fame and fortune.
It never occurs to them that ECK is really a personal walk in the
Sound & Light of God, with little to offer one who covets adoration.
When these conceited ones sense that no lasting position awaits them
in ECKANKAR, they scurry off in other directions to search for
recognition. Also in this third group is one who entertains as greater
opinion of himself than an inspection of his thoughts would seem to
justify. A critic of ECKANKAR , he plays his trump card: Paul
Twitchell's statement that ECKANKAR is not a system of metaphysics,
philosophy, or religion. He skips over references Paul made to ECK as
the new-old religion."
From WISDOM OF THE HEART, Book 2, by Sri Harold Klemp, Chapter 27, p.
132

I think referencing quotes from authors is sometimes confusing because
the reader, depending on his/her state of consciousness will read that
and either agree with you or think that you are proving the point of
your oposition
Andy

Sorry, but I don't really understand the reason for your comment. I
first mentioned how Eckankar declares former members to be failures or
spiritually flawed people who have fallen away from truth, and then I
posted one excerpt that serves as an excellent example of that view. I
don't see how anyone would become confused and think that proves the
point of my "opposition."
There are countless other examples of both PT and HK making negative
comments about former members. Perhaps I'll post a few more, time
permitting, for the general readership.
And not only do these Eck leaders denounce former members, they also
elevate the members of Eckankar to special status, declaring them to
be the "chosen few" who have evolved beyond all others. With such
rhetoric, it's not hard to understand why Eckists would perceive
themselves as failures if they don't feel as if they are keeping step
with their Eckist companions.
The odd thing is, a close look at the Eck masters reveals even their
"experiences" aren't exactly free of flaws and failure. Take PT's
predictions, for example. He was mostly wrong in everything he
predicted.  He failed to appoint a successor before he died, which is
peculiar for a person who is supposed to be able to foresee the
future. There are many other similar examples that reveal they aren't
as prescient and omniscient as they would have us all believe. So, if
even Eck masters "fail," how can the followers claim to be any better?
It isn't the followers who are flawed; it's the path they're
following.
All of this leads to me to ask a question: Do you agree with Harold
Klemp's views as expressed in the excerpts? Are Klemp's "three areas"
the major causes of why people leave Eckankar? Or is it just a
defensive attack on those who leave, as if leaving is an insult to all
that Klemp believes.
As to spiritual experiences validating Eckankar, I'd say there is a
bit of circular logic in that notion. Eckankar provides no useful
criteria to determine if an experience is valid or not, other than
"challenging" the experience with a "charged word" which, not
surprisingly, is the Masters name, such as "Wah Z.". Eckankar
essentially drums into the follower's head that all inner experiences
are real. It mesmerizes the follower with such methods as chanting the
name of the master, and gazing at an imagined image of the master with
eyes closed. It gets the follower deliberately trying to have dreams
of the masters. When through the continued power of suggestion over a
period of months and years, the student not surprisingly begins to
dream of Eck masters, the student unquestioningly accepts the dream as
validation of Eckankar, no matter that it may be self-induced through
suggestion. Oddly, if the same student dreams of something that might
invalidate eckankar, such dreams are rationalized as being Kal
influences or caused by negative entities or other rationalizations.
It's well known that lucid dreaming can be deliberately generated, and
one can program through intense suggestion over days and weeks any
dream experience one would like. One book about lucid dreaming offers
as an example experiencing lucid dream sex with Marilyn Monroe with
the use of lucid dream exercises! And it doesn't have to be a dream.
One can achieve similar effects while waking, while in a deep state of
self induced auto-hypnosis, which is can be very similar, if not
identical, to deep meditation.
So, the problem with spiritual experiences is that the only criteria
1) If the experience is positive about Eckankar, it's real, and should
be accepted without doubt.
2) If the experience is negative about Eckankar, it is not real, and
may be a kal trick or some negative impulse from Mind, or the lower
Kal worlds.
So, here's the essential point I'm making: With this sort of circular
logic, a double bind is created that the follower has trouble escaping
from. With this pseudo-logic, everything is affirming of Eckankar,
even if it isn't. By creating such a double bind, the loyal follower
is left with only one conclusion if he or she isn't having experiences
according to the Eckankar model: The follower is flawed and
spiritually un-evolved. If the follower does have "experiences" with
masters, then the follower is thought to be successful, ignoring the
possibility the follower is just more suggestible than average.
(Remember Klemp thinking he would lift the airport fog if he disrobed
in public? That is an example of a person highly prone to
suggestibility, if not downright deluded and psychotic). This is a
particularly insidious and malevolent mind-game to inflict upon the
trusting devotee, but this is exactly what Eckankar does. And even
Klemp wasn't exempt while he was working his way through the ranks.
Now, to be clear, I'm not saying there aren't genuine spiritual
experiences one could have by using the exercises in Eckankar. Such
exercises are not at all dissimilar from exercises taught by other
groups. Doing those exercises could produce a real experience. But it
isn't Eckankar that produced the experience, rather, it is the
individual practicing a common technique shared by many yogic groups.
One could have spiritual experiences no matter which group one
followed. So spiritual experiences don't prove Eckankar is real. I had
experiences before and after becoming a member of Eckankar, and some
after having left Eckankar. Some were real, some weren't. I'm now
wiser about how to tell the difference.
Tianyue

I should add that some experiences can be a mixture of both truth and
fiction, in which some of the images are mere associations made by the
mind, superimposed on a basically valid experience. Anyone who thinks
there aren't such occurrences is really taking an overly simplistic
view.

Tianyue

Post by TianYue

Post by TianYue

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
TianYue,
1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me.  I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so
2) I had quite a few inner experiences

...
read more »

[Etznab]

Post by TianYue

Post by TianYue
I've been busy lately, with not much time to answer posts, but here's

Post by TianYue
something I thought would add to the discussion.
It's a big red flag when cults make people feel as if they've failed.
In Eckankar, it's widely thought that if you leave, you've failed.
It's a black and white, absolutist view of people being on one side of
the spiritual fence or the other. It's the "us against them"
mentality. This is an entrapping way to define membership. Those who
stay are not failures, but those who leave are. With this tactic,
whenever the student doubts, it's a sign to the student that the
student is lacking awareness. All critical thinking is turned back
onto the follower. If you question, it means you're failing to
understand. If you find flaws in Eckankar, they're your flaws. If you
are disturbed about the meaning of such things as Paul's plagiary,
you're overthinking. You're mental.  It's one of the double binds I
mentioned. No matter which way you turn, if it's away from Eckankar,
you've made a wrong turn. With this approach, you can't use reason to
determine anything about Eckankar, because that means you're not
sufficiently aware. In this manner, people become trapped.
I've noticed some here have reached out to you, extending a hand,
since you're in doubt. But sadly, despite what some have said on this
thread, Harold Klemp reveals the rather unkind view commonly held by
"Let's look at these three areas that can cause people to leave ECK.
"First is discouragement. It affects those who have an unrealistic
goal in ECK; those who want to Soul Travel or reach Self-and God-
realization with practically no effort. Those who become disheartened
quit ECK for other paths that seem to require less drive and
responsibility of them.
"Anger is the second reason people leave ECK. An angry person thinks
he is always right in his estimation of a situation. When events prove
him wrong, he is quick to invent an argument to explain away his
error. And woe to him who is brash enough to point out the mistake.
Angry people leave ECKANKAR out of impatience. They look for eagle-
winged promotions in ECK, but their selfish ambition is the
acquisition of power. Without power they feel at loss. But the kingdom
of god can only be reached by love.
"Third, people leave ECK for reasons of pride. They may feel the
Master has unfairly given someone else an initiation ahead of them.
Others who have reduced the ECK teachings to a mental formula, finally
grow weary of their mental creation, having mistaken it for what ECK
really is. They say ECKANKAR has nothing for me. Another group of
dropouts is still more unstable. These are the mini-masters and their
cohorts, who for ignoble reasons want a shortcut to fame and fortune.
It never occurs to them that ECK is really a personal walk in the
Sound & Light of God, with little to offer one who covets adoration.
When these conceited ones sense that no lasting position awaits them
in ECKANKAR, they scurry off in other directions to search for
recognition. Also in this third group is one who entertains as greater
opinion of himself than an inspection of his thoughts would seem to
justify. A critic of ECKANKAR , he plays his trump card: Paul
Twitchell's statement that ECKANKAR is not a system of metaphysics,
philosophy, or religion. He skips over references Paul made to ECK as
the new-old religion."
From WISDOM OF THE HEART, Book 2, by Sri Harold Klemp, Chapter 27, p.
132

I think referencing quotes from authors is sometimes confusing because
the reader, depending on his/her state of consciousness will read that
and either agree with you or think that you are proving the point of
your oposition
Andy

Sorry, but I don't really understand the reason for your comment. I
first mentioned how Eckankar declares former members to be failures or
spiritually flawed people who have fallen away from truth, and then I
posted one excerpt that serves as an excellent example of that view. I
don't see how anyone would become confused and think that proves the
point of my "opposition."
There are countless other examples of both PT and HK making negative
comments about former members. Perhaps I'll post a few more, time
permitting, for the general readership.
And not only do these Eck leaders denounce former members, they also
elevate the members of Eckankar to special status, declaring them to
be the "chosen few" who have evolved beyond all others. With such
rhetoric, it's not hard to understand why Eckists would perceive
themselves as failures if they don't feel as if they are keeping step
with their Eckist companions.
The odd thing is, a close look at the Eck masters reveals even their
"experiences" aren't exactly free of flaws and failure. Take PT's
predictions, for example. He was mostly wrong in everything he
predicted.  He failed to appoint a successor before he died, which is
peculiar for a person who is supposed to be able to foresee the
future. There are many other similar examples that reveal they aren't
as prescient and omniscient as they would have us all believe. So, if
even Eck masters "fail," how can the followers claim to be any better?
It isn't the followers who are flawed; it's the path they're
following.
All of this leads to me to ask a question: Do you agree with Harold
Klemp's views as expressed in the excerpts? Are Klemp's "three areas"
the major causes of why people leave Eckankar? Or is it just a
defensive attack on those who leave, as if leaving is an insult to all
that Klemp believes.
As to spiritual experiences validating Eckankar, I'd say there is a
bit of circular logic in that notion. Eckankar provides no useful
criteria to determine if an experience is valid or not, other than
"challenging" the experience with a "charged word" which, not
surprisingly, is the Masters name, such as "Wah Z.". Eckankar
essentially drums into the follower's head that all inner experiences
are real. It mesmerizes the follower with such methods as chanting the
name of the master, and gazing at an imagined image of the master with
eyes closed. It gets the follower deliberately trying to have dreams
of the masters. When through the continued power of suggestion over a
period of months and years, the student not surprisingly begins to
dream of Eck masters, the student unquestioningly accepts the dream as
validation of Eckankar, no matter that it may be self-induced through
suggestion. Oddly, if the same student dreams of something that might
invalidate eckankar, such dreams are rationalized as being Kal
influences or caused by negative entities or other rationalizations.
It's well known that lucid dreaming can be deliberately generated, and
one can program through intense suggestion over days and weeks any
dream experience one would like. One book about lucid dreaming offers
as an example experiencing lucid dream sex with Marilyn Monroe with
the use of lucid dream exercises! And it doesn't have to be a dream.
One can achieve similar effects while waking, while in a deep state of
self induced auto-hypnosis, which is can be very similar, if not
identical, to deep meditation.
So, the problem with spiritual experiences is that the only criteria
1) If the experience is positive about Eckankar, it's real, and should
be accepted without doubt.
2) If the experience is negative about Eckankar, it is not real, and
may be a kal trick or some negative impulse from Mind, or the lower
Kal worlds.
So, here's the essential point I'm making: With this sort of circular
logic, a double bind is created that the follower has trouble escaping
from. With this pseudo-logic, everything is affirming of Eckankar,
even if it isn't. By creating such a double bind, the loyal follower
is left with only one conclusion if he or she isn't having experiences
according to the Eckankar model: The follower is flawed and
spiritually un-evolved. If the follower does have "experiences" with
masters, then the follower is thought to be successful, ignoring the
possibility the follower is just more suggestible than average.
(Remember Klemp thinking he would lift the airport fog if he disrobed
in public? That is an example of a person highly prone to
suggestibility, if not downright deluded and psychotic). This is a
particularly insidious and malevolent mind-game to inflict upon the
trusting devotee, but this is exactly what Eckankar does. And even
Klemp wasn't exempt while he was working his way through the ranks.
Now, to be clear, I'm not saying there aren't genuine spiritual
experiences one could have by using the exercises in Eckankar. Such
exercises are not at all dissimilar from exercises taught by other
groups. Doing those exercises could produce a real experience. But it
isn't Eckankar that produced the experience, rather, it is the
individual practicing a common technique shared by many yogic groups.
One could have spiritual experiences no matter which group one
followed. So spiritual experiences don't prove Eckankar is real. I had
experiences before and after becoming a member of Eckankar, and some
after having left Eckankar. Some were real, some weren't. I'm now
wiser about how to tell the difference.
Tianyue

Post by TianYue

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
TianYue,
1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me.  I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so
2) I had quite a few inner experiences

...
read more »

Before Harold Klemp jumped off a bridge, I think he
had recently been to a seminar where he expected to
meet with Eck Master Paul Twitchell.

After returning home, I believe the story goes, Paul
Twitchell was on Harold's mind so much that he even
skipped work. Harold thought he needed to travel to
where Paul Twitchell was, as if Paul was waiting for
him. That was why he went to the airport in the first
place. Wasn't it? Harold thought Paul was waiting to
meet him? If not in the airport, Harold had to travel to
where Paul was. Harold was so intent on serving the
Eck Master, Paul Twitchell, at least.

Harold Klemp never did meet Paul Twitchell in the
physical, after returning home, it seems. But later, I
believe, he "saw" Paul Twitchell on the bridge that he
later jumped off of. Then again in the mental hospital
where he stayed subsequent to the plunge.

Another interesting aspect to the timeline for this
story, IMO, is how alone Harold Klemp was. Harold
left the family church. He left (finished?) school and
moved into an apartment. At least, by the time the
"God Realization" experiences arrived, Harold was
on his own and living by his self. No family church,
no school, no immediate family in his new neighbor
hood &, I believe, his father might have recently died.
He also had the challenge of starting a new job.

I might not have all the details right, but it seems
(to me) Harold had a lot of reasons to feel lonely at
the time. Missing Paul Twitchell at the seminar was
only one of them. IMO. So, I saw some different per-
spectives last time I read that story about disrobing
(attempt at) in the airport and later jumping into the
river.

Etznab

[Etznab]

Post by TianYue

Post by TianYue
I've been busy lately, with not much time to answer posts, but here's

Post by TianYue
something I thought would add to the discussion.
It's a big red flag when cults make people feel as if they've failed.
In Eckankar, it's widely thought that if you leave, you've failed.
It's a black and white, absolutist view of people being on one side of
the spiritual fence or the other. It's the "us against them"
mentality. This is an entrapping way to define membership. Those who
stay are not failures, but those who leave are. With this tactic,
whenever the student doubts, it's a sign to the student that the
student is lacking awareness. All critical thinking is turned back
onto the follower. If you question, it means you're failing to
understand. If you find flaws in Eckankar, they're your flaws. If you
are disturbed about the meaning of such things as Paul's plagiary,
you're overthinking. You're mental.  It's one of the double binds I
mentioned. No matter which way you turn, if it's away from Eckankar,
you've made a wrong turn. With this approach, you can't use reason to
determine anything about Eckankar, because that means you're not
sufficiently aware. In this manner, people become trapped.
I've noticed some here have reached out to you, extending a hand,
since you're in doubt. But sadly, despite what some have said on this
thread, Harold Klemp reveals the rather unkind view commonly held by
"Let's look at these three areas that can cause people to leave ECK.
"First is discouragement. It affects those who have an unrealistic
goal in ECK; those who want to Soul Travel or reach Self-and God-
realization with practically no effort. Those who become disheartened
quit ECK for other paths that seem to require less drive and
responsibility of them.
"Anger is the second reason people leave ECK. An angry person thinks
he is always right in his estimation of a situation. When events prove
him wrong, he is quick to invent an argument to explain away his
error. And woe to him who is brash enough to point out the mistake.
Angry people leave ECKANKAR out of impatience. They look for eagle-
winged promotions in ECK, but their selfish ambition is the
acquisition of power. Without power they feel at loss. But the kingdom
of god can only be reached by love.
"Third, people leave ECK for reasons of pride. They may feel the
Master has unfairly given someone else an initiation ahead of them.
Others who have reduced the ECK teachings to a mental formula, finally
grow weary of their mental creation, having mistaken it for what ECK
really is. They say ECKANKAR has nothing for me. Another group of
dropouts is still more unstable. These are the mini-masters and their
cohorts, who for ignoble reasons want a shortcut to fame and fortune.
It never occurs to them that ECK is really a personal walk in the
Sound & Light of God, with little to offer one who covets adoration.
When these conceited ones sense that no lasting position awaits them
in ECKANKAR, they scurry off in other directions to search for
recognition. Also in this third group is one who entertains as greater
opinion of himself than an inspection of his thoughts would seem to
justify. A critic of ECKANKAR , he plays his trump card: Paul
Twitchell's statement that ECKANKAR is not a system of metaphysics,
philosophy, or religion. He skips over references Paul made to ECK as
the new-old religion."
From WISDOM OF THE HEART, Book 2, by Sri Harold Klemp, Chapter 27, p.
132

I think referencing quotes from authors is sometimes confusing because
the reader, depending on his/her state of consciousness will read that
and either agree with you or think that you are proving the point of
your oposition
Andy

Sorry, but I don't really understand the reason for your comment. I
first mentioned how Eckankar declares former members to be failures or
spiritually flawed people who have fallen away from truth, and then I
posted one excerpt that serves as an excellent example of that view. I
don't see how anyone would become confused and think that proves the
point of my "opposition."
There are countless other examples of both PT and HK making negative
comments about former members. Perhaps I'll post a few more, time
permitting, for the general readership.
And not only do these Eck leaders denounce former members, they also
elevate the members of Eckankar to special status, declaring them to
be the "chosen few" who have evolved beyond all others. With such
rhetoric, it's not hard to understand why Eckists would perceive
themselves as failures if they don't feel as if they are keeping step
with their Eckist companions.
The odd thing is, a close look at the Eck masters reveals even their
"experiences" aren't exactly free of flaws and failure. Take PT's
predictions, for example. He was mostly wrong in everything he
predicted.  He failed to appoint a successor before he died, which is
peculiar for a person who is supposed to be able to foresee the
future. There are many other similar examples that reveal they aren't
as prescient and omniscient as they would have us all believe. So, if
even Eck masters "fail," how can the followers claim to be any better?
It isn't the followers who are flawed; it's the path they're
following.
All of this leads to me to ask a question: Do you agree with Harold
Klemp's views as expressed in the excerpts? Are Klemp's "three areas"
the major causes of why people leave Eckankar? Or is it just a
defensive attack on those who leave, as if leaving is an insult to all
that Klemp believes.
As to spiritual experiences validating Eckankar, I'd say there is a
bit of circular logic in that notion. Eckankar provides no useful
criteria to determine if an experience is valid or not, other than
"challenging" the experience with a "charged word" which, not
surprisingly, is the Masters name, such as "Wah Z.". Eckankar
essentially drums into the follower's head that all inner experiences
are real. It mesmerizes the follower with such methods as chanting the
name of the master, and gazing at an imagined image of the master with
eyes closed. It gets the follower deliberately trying to have dreams
of the masters. When through the continued power of suggestion over a
period of months and years, the student not surprisingly begins to
dream of Eck masters, the student unquestioningly accepts the dream as
validation of Eckankar, no matter that it may be self-induced through
suggestion. Oddly, if the same student dreams of something that might
invalidate eckankar, such dreams are rationalized as being Kal
influences or caused by negative entities or other rationalizations.
It's well known that lucid dreaming can be deliberately generated, and
one can program through intense suggestion over days and weeks any
dream experience one would like. One book about lucid dreaming offers
as an example experiencing lucid dream sex with Marilyn Monroe with
the use of lucid dream exercises! And it doesn't have to be a dream.
One can achieve similar effects while waking, while in a deep state of
self induced auto-hypnosis, which is can be very similar, if not
identical, to deep meditation.
So, the problem with spiritual experiences is that the only criteria
1) If the experience is positive about Eckankar, it's real, and should
be accepted without doubt.
2) If the experience is negative about Eckankar, it is not real, and
may be a kal trick or some negative impulse from Mind, or the lower
Kal worlds.
So, here's the essential point I'm making: With this sort of circular
logic, a double bind is created that the follower has trouble escaping
from. With this pseudo-logic, everything is affirming of Eckankar,
even if it isn't. By creating such a double bind, the loyal follower
is left with only one conclusion if he or she isn't having experiences
according to the Eckankar model: The follower is flawed and
spiritually un-evolved. If the follower does have "experiences" with
masters, then the follower is thought to be successful, ignoring the
possibility the follower is just more suggestible than average.
(Remember Klemp thinking he would lift the airport fog if he disrobed
in public? That is an example of a person highly prone to
suggestibility, if not downright deluded and psychotic). This is a
particularly insidious and malevolent mind-game to inflict upon the
trusting devotee, but this is exactly what Eckankar does. And even
Klemp wasn't exempt while he was working his way through the ranks.
Now, to be clear, I'm not saying there aren't genuine spiritual
experiences one could have by using the exercises in Eckankar. Such
exercises are not at all dissimilar from exercises taught by other
groups. Doing those exercises could produce a real experience. But it
isn't Eckankar that produced the experience, rather, it is the
individual practicing a common technique shared by many yogic groups.
One could have spiritual experiences no matter which group one
followed. So spiritual experiences don't prove Eckankar is real. I had
experiences before and after becoming a member of Eckankar, and some
after having left Eckankar. Some were real, some weren't. I'm now
wiser about how to tell the difference.
Tianyue

Post by TianYue

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
TianYue,
1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me.  I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so
2) I had quite a few inner experiences

...
read more »

   Before Harold Klemp jumped off a bridge, I think he
had recently been to a seminar where he expected to
meet with Eck Master Paul Twitchell.
   After returning home, I believe the story goes, Paul
Twitchell was on Harold's mind so much that he even
skipped work. Harold thought he needed to travel to
where Paul Twitchell was, as if Paul was waiting for
him. That was why he went to the airport in the first
place. Wasn't it? Harold thought Paul was waiting to
meet him? If not in the airport, Harold had to travel to
where Paul was. Harold was so intent on serving the
Eck Master, Paul Twitchell, at least.
   Harold Klemp never did meet Paul Twitchell in the
physical, after returning home, it seems. But later, I
believe, he "saw" Paul Twitchell on the bridge that he
later jumped off of. Then again in the mental hospital
where he stayed subsequent to the plunge.
   Another interesting aspect to the timeline for this
story, IMO, is how alone Harold Klemp was. Harold
left the family church. He left (finished?) school and
moved into an apartment. At least, by the time the
"God Realization" experiences arrived, Harold was
on his own and living by his self. No family church,
no school, no immediate family in his new neighbor
hood &, I believe, his father might have recently died.
He also had the challenge of starting a new job.
   I might not have all the details right, but it seems
(to me) Harold had a lot of reasons to feel lonely at
the time. Missing Paul Twitchell at the seminar was
only one of them. IMO. So, I saw some different per-
spectives last time I read that story about disrobing
(attempt at) in the airport and later jumping into the
river.
Etznab

There were a couple events out of order in that
last post. (Paul's fathers death and the order of
events for the bridge and the airport.)

This post is an attempt to clarify order of events
I commented on earlier.

Chapter 11 (The Midwest Seminar) of Childi n the
Wilderness reads.

"The days before the Midwest Seminar in Chicago
passed like molasses. It was quite nervy for a new
employee to ask for time off less than a month after
being hired, but that was a condition I insisted on.
The ECK seminar was scheduled for April 23-26,
1970 - Thursday through Sunday. [....]"

BTW, Harold's father didn't die until the the following
year. October 1971, I think. So it was a different sem-
inar when that happened. Not the Midwest seminar of
1970. However,before his new job, Harold did announce
his decision to quit the family church. (See chap.9, The
Squeeze Is On, 1st chapter) Later, in the same chapter
"Now it became imperative to find a job and leave the
farm (p. 85 Child in the Wilderness).

Actually, Harold announced the decision to leave in
Chap. 7 (Good-bye Church, Good-bye Farm). I presume
he didn't actually do it (Quit the Church and find a new
Job) until some time later. See Chap. 9.

My point earlier was that Harold had left the family
church, decided to leave the farm and he was looking
for (and later started) a job before the seminar where
Harold expected to meet with ECK Master, Paul Twit-
chell. (For a consultation? See page 99, 2nd paragraph.)

Someone did hand Harold a flower at the seminar
(p. 103) that was from the Master. I believe.

The last paragraph of Chap. 11 (p. 105) reads:

"Full of love, loneliness, and even a little smug-ness,
I settled back into my seat for the long ride home."

The first two paragraphs of Chap. 12 (p. 107) read:

"The Midwest Seminar of 1970 was over, and I returned
home quite a different person from the one who had left
for the seminar three days earlier.

"Paul had promised on the inner planes that we would
meet at the seminar. Since he had met me once or twice
at previous seminars, I just took the privilege for granted.
But the weekend passed without so much as a nod from
him. Although let down, I felt a rich stirring in my heart,
like a love gift: an entirely new feeling."

After unpacking from the seminar on Sunday, he (Harold
Klemp) went for a walk. This was when he encountered
the "man on the bridge".

After Chap. 12 (Bedlam In The Proofroom) Chap.13
begins with Harold Klemp going to the bridge again.
Chapter 13 was called: A Sharp Rebuke.

I've not clarified all the details for this timeline, but it reads
like Harold jumped from the bridge, went to the hospital,
came home, and then had a feeling he had to "fly to Las
Vegas and work for Paul". So it looks like he didn't go to
the "psyche ward" after the bridge-jumping incident, but
after the police removed him from the airport (sometime
later) for trying to "disrobe".

Chapter 19 (Off The Deep End), p. 166:

"After cleaning up, I made a change in my usual
routine. Instead of walking to the office, I decided
to skip work. What better way to return God's love
than to fly to Las Vegas and work for Paul?
Unknown to me, he was on a trip to Europe. Like
many unbalanced people before and after that day,
I thought the Master would be waiting for me with
open arms at the Las Vegas airport. Actually, an
unbalanced person is a nuisance to himself and
others. Paul didn't need someone like me in that
condition."

This is not a detailed order of everything, but in
order to clarify events for the time-line I tried to
illustrate in an earlier post, it app-ears to look
something like this. (An attempt to clarify order.
What came before what.)

Leaves church and farm. Starts new job living in
apartment by himself. Goes to 1970 seminar.
Meets man on bridge after returning home from
seminar. Has "God-Realization" experience on
bridge. Later jumps from bridge. Returns from
hospital and goes back to work. Decides one day
to go meet Paul Twitchell. Skips work & goes to
airport. Taken from airport to hospital and ends up
in "psyche ward".

That was an attempt to illustrate the order of
events I mentioned in the earlier post. It was
NOT a description for everything, and it does
NOT tell how many days between each event.

I mentioned earlier in this post that Harold's
father didn't die before the Midwest Seminar,
but later (before 1971 Worldwide Seminar?).

It was apparent to me, nevertheless, that much
change had taken place in Harold's life before he
jumped off the bridge and was later taken away
from the airport. However, ever since returning
home from that 1970 seminar (it was my im -
pression from the book) Harold was a lot more
alone and detached from his family upbringing.
He had some very phenomenal experiences after
the 1970 seminar and he later wanted to be with
the ECK Master and serve him.

Etznab

[Etznab]

Post by AF59

Post by TianYue

Post by TianYue
I've been busy lately, with not much time to answer posts, but here's

Post by TianYue
something I thought would add to the discussion.
It's a big red flag when cults make people feel as if they've failed.
In Eckankar, it's widely thought that if you leave, you've failed.
It's a black and white, absolutist view of people being on one side of
the spiritual fence or the other. It's the "us against them"
mentality. This is an entrapping way to define membership. Those who
stay are not failures, but those who leave are. With this tactic,
whenever the student doubts, it's a sign to the student that the
student is lacking awareness. All critical thinking is turned back
onto the follower. If you question, it means you're failing to
understand. If you find flaws in Eckankar, they're your flaws. If you
are disturbed about the meaning of such things as Paul's plagiary,
you're overthinking. You're mental.  It's one of the double binds I
mentioned. No matter which way you turn, if it's away from Eckankar,
you've made a wrong turn. With this approach, you can't use reason to
determine anything about Eckankar, because that means you're not
sufficiently aware. In this manner, people become trapped.
I've noticed some here have reached out to you, extending a hand,
since you're in doubt. But sadly, despite what some have said on this
thread, Harold Klemp reveals the rather unkind view commonly held by
"Let's look at these three areas that can cause people to leave ECK.
"First is discouragement. It affects those who have an unrealistic
goal in ECK; those who want to Soul Travel or reach Self-and God-
realization with practically no effort. Those who become disheartened
quit ECK for other paths that seem to require less drive and
responsibility of them.
"Anger is the second reason people leave ECK. An angry person thinks
he is always right in his estimation of a situation. When events prove
him wrong, he is quick to invent an argument to explain away his
error. And woe to him who is brash enough to point out the mistake.
Angry people leave ECKANKAR out of impatience. They look for eagle-
winged promotions in ECK, but their selfish ambition is the
acquisition of power. Without power they feel at loss. But the kingdom
of god can only be reached by love.
"Third, people leave ECK for reasons of pride. They may feel the
Master has unfairly given someone else an initiation ahead of them.
Others who have reduced the ECK teachings to a mental formula, finally
grow weary of their mental creation, having mistaken it for what ECK
really is. They say ECKANKAR has nothing for me. Another group of
dropouts is still more unstable. These are the mini-masters and their
cohorts, who for ignoble reasons want a shortcut to fame and fortune.
It never occurs to them that ECK is really a personal walk in the
Sound & Light of God, with little to offer one who covets adoration.
When these conceited ones sense that no lasting position awaits them
in ECKANKAR, they scurry off in other directions to search for
recognition. Also in this third group is one who entertains as greater
opinion of himself than an inspection of his thoughts would seem to
justify. A critic of ECKANKAR , he plays his trump card: Paul
Twitchell's statement that ECKANKAR is not a system of metaphysics,
philosophy, or religion. He skips over references Paul made to ECK as
the new-old religion."
From WISDOM OF THE HEART, Book 2, by Sri Harold Klemp, Chapter 27, p.
132

I think referencing quotes from authors is sometimes confusing because
the reader, depending on his/her state of consciousness will read that
and either agree with you or think that you are proving the point of
your oposition
Andy

Sorry, but I don't really understand the reason for your comment. I
first mentioned how Eckankar declares former members to be failures or
spiritually flawed people who have fallen away from truth, and then I
posted one excerpt that serves as an excellent example of that view. I
don't see how anyone would become confused and think that proves the
point of my "opposition."
There are countless other examples of both PT and HK making negative
comments about former members. Perhaps I'll post a few more, time
permitting, for the general readership.
And not only do these Eck leaders denounce former members, they also
elevate the members of Eckankar to special status, declaring them to
be the "chosen few" who have evolved beyond all others. With such
rhetoric, it's not hard to understand why Eckists would perceive
themselves as failures if they don't feel as if they are keeping step
with their Eckist companions.
The odd thing is, a close look at the Eck masters reveals even their
"experiences" aren't exactly free of flaws and failure. Take PT's
predictions, for example. He was mostly wrong in everything he
predicted.  He failed to appoint a successor before he died, which is
peculiar for a person who is supposed to be able to foresee the
future. There are many other similar examples that reveal they aren't
as prescient and omniscient as they would have us all believe. So, if
even Eck masters "fail," how can the followers claim to be any better?
It isn't the followers who are flawed; it's the path they're
following.
All of this leads to me to ask a question: Do you agree with Harold
Klemp's views as expressed in the excerpts? Are Klemp's "three areas"
the major causes of why people leave Eckankar? Or is it just a
defensive attack on those who leave, as if leaving is an insult to all
that Klemp believes.
As to spiritual experiences validating Eckankar, I'd say there is a
bit of circular logic in that notion. Eckankar provides no useful
criteria to determine if an experience is valid or not, other than
"challenging" the experience with a "charged word" which, not
surprisingly, is the Masters name, such as "Wah Z.". Eckankar
essentially drums into the follower's head that all inner experiences
are real. It mesmerizes the follower with such methods as chanting the
name of the master, and gazing at an imagined image of the master with
eyes closed. It gets the follower deliberately trying to have dreams
of the masters. When through the continued power of suggestion over a
period of months and years, the student not surprisingly begins to
dream of Eck masters, the student unquestioningly accepts the dream as
validation of Eckankar, no matter that it may be self-induced through
suggestion. Oddly, if the same student dreams of something that might
invalidate eckankar, such dreams are rationalized as being Kal
influences or caused by negative entities or other rationalizations.
It's well known that lucid dreaming can be deliberately generated, and
one can program through intense suggestion over days and weeks any
dream experience one would like. One book about lucid dreaming offers
as an example experiencing lucid dream sex with Marilyn Monroe with
the use of lucid dream exercises! And it doesn't have to be a dream.
One can achieve similar effects while waking, while in a deep state of
self induced auto-hypnosis, which is can be very similar, if not
identical, to deep meditation.
So, the problem with spiritual experiences is that the only criteria
1) If the experience is positive about Eckankar, it's real, and should
be accepted without doubt.
2) If the experience is negative about Eckankar, it is not real, and
may be a kal trick or some negative impulse from Mind, or the lower
Kal worlds.
So, here's the essential point I'm making: With this sort of circular
logic, a double bind is created that the follower has trouble escaping
from. With this pseudo-logic, everything is affirming of Eckankar,
even if it isn't. By creating such a double bind, the loyal follower
is left with only one conclusion if he or she isn't having experiences
according to the Eckankar model: The follower is flawed and
spiritually un-evolved. If the follower does have "experiences" with
masters, then the follower is thought to be successful, ignoring the
possibility the follower is just more suggestible than average.
(Remember Klemp thinking he would lift the airport fog if he disrobed
in public? That is an example of a person highly prone to
suggestibility, if not downright deluded and psychotic). This is a
particularly insidious and malevolent mind-game to inflict upon the
trusting devotee, but this is exactly what Eckankar does. And even
Klemp wasn't exempt while he was working his way through the ranks.
Now, to be clear, I'm not saying there aren't genuine spiritual
experiences one could have by using the exercises in Eckankar. Such
exercises are not at all dissimilar from exercises taught by other
groups. Doing those exercises could produce a real experience. But it
isn't Eckankar that produced the experience, rather, it is the
individual practicing a common technique shared by many yogic groups.
One could have spiritual experiences no matter which group one
followed. So spiritual experiences don't prove Eckankar is real. I had
experiences before and after becoming a member of Eckankar, and some
after having left Eckankar. Some were real, some weren't. I'm now
wiser about how to tell the difference.
Tianyue

...
read more »

There were a couple events out of order in that
last post. (Harold's father's death and the order
of bridge and airport events.)

This post is an attempt to clarify order of events
I commented on earlier.

Chapter 11 (The Midwest Seminar) of Childi n the
Wilderness reads.

"The days before the Midwest Seminar in Chicago
passed like molasses. It was quite nervy for a new
employee to ask for time off less than a month after
being hired, but that was a condition I insisted on.
The ECK seminar was scheduled for April 23-26,
1970 - Thursday through Sunday. [....]"

BTW, Harold's father didn't die until the the following
year. October 1971, I think. So it was a different sem-
inar when that happened. Not the Midwest seminar of
1970. However,before his new job, Harold did announce
his decision to quit the family church. (See chap.9, The
Squeeze Is On, 1st chapter) Later, in the same chapter
"Now it became imperative to find a job and leave the
farm (p. 85 Child in the Wilderness).

Actually, Harold announced the decision to leave in
Chap. 7 (Good-bye Church, Good-bye Farm). I presume
he didn't actually do it (Quit the Church and find a new
Job) until some time later. See Chap. 9.

My point earlier was that Harold had left the family
church, decided to leave the farm and he was looking
for (and later started) a job before the seminar where
Harold expected to meet with ECK Master, Paul Twit-
chell. (For a consultation? See page 99, 2nd paragraph.)

Someone did hand Harold a flower at the seminar
(p. 103) that was from the Master. I believe.

The last paragraph of Chap. 11 (p. 105) reads:

"Full of love, loneliness, and even a little smug-ness,
I settled back into my seat for the long ride home."

The first two paragraphs of Chap. 12 (p. 107) read:

"The Midwest Seminar of 1970 was over, and I returned
home quite a different person from the one who had left
for the seminar three days earlier.

"Paul had promised on the inner planes that we would
meet at the seminar. Since he had met me once or twice
at previous seminars, I just took the privilege for granted.
But the weekend passed without so much as a nod from
him. Although let down, I felt a rich stirring in my heart,
like a love gift: an entirely new feeling."

After unpacking from the seminar on Sunday, he (Harold
Klemp) went for a walk. This was when he encountered
the "man on the bridge".

After Chap. 12 (Bedlam In The Proofroom) Chap.13
begins with Harold Klemp going to the bridge again.
Chapter 13 was called: A Sharp Rebuke.

I've not clarified all the details for this timeline, but it reads
like Harold jumped from the bridge, went to the hospital,
came home, and then had a feeling he had to "fly to Las
Vegas and work for Paul". So it looks like he didn't go to
the "psyche ward" after the bridge-jumping incident, but
after the police removed him from the airport (sometime
later) for trying to "disrobe".

Chapter 19 (Off The Deep End), p. 166:

"After cleaning up, I made a change in my usual
routine. Instead of walking to the office, I decided
to skip work. What better way to return God's love
than to fly to Las Vegas and work for Paul?
Unknown to me, he was on a trip to Europe. Like
many unbalanced people before and after that day,
I thought the Master would be waiting for me with
open arms at the Las Vegas airport. Actually, an
unbalanced person is a nuisance to himself and
others. Paul didn't need someone like me in that
condition."

This is not a detailed order of everything, but in
order to clarify events for the time-line I tried to
illustrate in an earlier post, it app-ears to look
something like this. (An attempt to clarify order.
What came before what.)

Leaves church and farm. Starts new job living in
apartment by himself. Goes to 1970 seminar.
Meets man on bridge after returning home from
seminar. Has "God-Realization" experience on
bridge. Later jumps from bridge. Returns from
hospital and goes back to work. Decides one day
to go meet Paul Twitchell. Skips work & goes to
airport. Taken from airport to hospital and ends up
in "psyche ward".

That was an attempt to illustrate the order of
events I mentioned in the earlier post. It was
NOT a description for everything, and it does
NOT tell how many days between each event.

I mentioned earlier in this post that Harold's
father didn't die before the Midwest Seminar,
but later (before 1971 Worldwide Seminar?).

It was apparent to me, nevertheless, that much
change had taken place in Harold's life before he
jumped off the bridge and was later taken away
from the airport. However, ever since returning
home from that 1970 seminar (it was my im -
pression from the book) Harold was a lot more
alone and detached from his family upbringing.
He had some very phenomenal experiences after
the 1970 seminar and he later wanted to be with
the ECK Master and serve him.

Etznab

[Etznab]

Post by TianYue
I've been busy lately, with not much time to answer posts, but here's
something I thought would add to the discussion.
It's a big red flag when cults make people feel as if they've failed.
In Eckankar, it's widely thought that if you leave, you've failed.
It's a black and white, absolutist view of people being on one side of
the spiritual fence or the other. It's the "us against them"
mentality. This is an entrapping way to define membership. Those who
stay are not failures, but those who leave are. With this tactic,
whenever the student doubts, it's a sign to the student that the
student is lacking awareness. All critical thinking is turned back
onto the follower. If you question, it means you're failing to
understand. If you find flaws in Eckankar, they're your flaws. If you
are disturbed about the meaning of such things as Paul's plagiary,
you're overthinking. You're mental.  It's one of the double binds I
mentioned. No matter which way you turn, if it's away from Eckankar,
you've made a wrong turn. With this approach, you can't use reason to
determine anything about Eckankar, because that means you're not
sufficiently aware. In this manner, people become trapped.
I've noticed some here have reached out to you, extending a hand,
since you're in doubt. But sadly, despite what some have said on this
thread, Harold Klemp reveals the rather unkind view commonly held by
"Let's look at these three areas that can cause people to leave ECK.
"First is discouragement. It affects those who have an unrealistic
goal in ECK; those who want to Soul Travel or reach Self-and God-
realization with practically no effort. Those who become disheartened
quit ECK for other paths that seem to require less drive and
responsibility of them.
"Anger is the second reason people leave ECK. An angry person thinks
he is always right in his estimation of a situation. When events prove
him wrong, he is quick to invent an argument to explain away his
error. And woe to him who is brash enough to point out the mistake.
Angry people leave ECKANKAR out of impatience. They look for eagle-
winged promotions in ECK, but their selfish ambition is the
acquisition of power. Without power they feel at loss. But the kingdom
of god can only be reached by love.
"Third, people leave ECK for reasons of pride. They may feel the
Master has unfairly given someone else an initiation ahead of them.
Others who have reduced the ECK teachings to a mental formula, finally
grow weary of their mental creation, having mistaken it for what ECK
really is. They say ECKANKAR has nothing for me. Another group of
dropouts is still more unstable. These are the mini-masters and their
cohorts, who for ignoble reasons want a shortcut to fame and fortune.
It never occurs to them that ECK is really a personal walk in the
Sound & Light of God, with little to offer one who covets adoration.
When these conceited ones sense that no lasting position awaits them
in ECKANKAR, they scurry off in other directions to search for
recognition. Also in this third group is one who entertains as greater
opinion of himself than an inspection of his thoughts would seem to
justify. A critic of ECKANKAR , he plays his trump card: Paul
Twitchell's statement that ECKANKAR is not a system of metaphysics,
philosophy, or religion. He skips over references Paul made to ECK as
the new-old religion."
From WISDOM OF THE HEART, Book 2, by Sri Harold Klemp, Chapter 27, p.
132

Post by AF59
TianYue,
1) at first I felt as though I had failed in Eckankar, yes
as I stated I couldn't play the part that I was being "groomed" for,
by the local HI's in the area, it just wasn't me.  I am a bit down to
earth, maybe too much so
2) I had quite a few inner experiences directly with Darwin Gross, and
also Harold Klemp.
Curiously enough I had never had an inner experience with Paul
Twitchell until last evening.  I won't go into that right now.
I seriously question all the claims that have been made by Darwin and
Harold, and I can honestly say I just don't know.
I know at the time when i listened to Harold and Darwin I felt I was
hearing truth.  I can't help but hear Paul's voice echoing in my head
to question everything, paraphrasing of course.
I also can't help but wonder what Paul would think of Eckankar now...
it's my opinion but it is clearly seems to have lost the individualism
and creativity that seemed to be there at the beginning.  I have read
a few opinions on here of Paul Twitchell so I know that doesn't hold a
lot of water.  I feel that I understand Paul's intentions, as naive as
I may be about that.
Eckankar seems to be boxed up now, and Eckists aren't allowed to work
outside of that box??  Again my opinion but it's not what Paul started
I never had any experiences with the other Masters listed, so since I
haven't had experience I wouldn't be able to say that I honestly
believe in them.
I seem to keep coming back and looking at Eckankar
but i can't seem to get past my big doubts. What does stand out in my
mind is my inner experiences.  Would I have had those without
Eckankar?  Was spirit using those forms to teach me things?  well
yes.. I would say, isn't that how spirit works?
Am I even coming close to answering your question?  lol...
Is Eckankar legitimate?   I'd have to say yes.  In so far as is any
religion legit?
Does Eckankar mean the world to  some? yes it does..  Does it fulfill
a spiritual need for some? Yes...  In my opinion answering yes to both
questions makes it legit
Tianyue
I hope I have answered your questions, I am fighting the TV on in the
background, my kids seeming to want to follow me to every room even
though I am trying to get to some quiet place to honestly answer your
questions.  Mostly for myself no doubt.
Andy

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.
My questions are sincere and not meant to offend, and the fact that I
have said very little in here for the last, I don't know many, years
hopefully would convey to  you that I am not here to
joust.  I was just curious.  I guess I could go back and read all the
threads to find out, but I was just curious.
I left Eckankar for many reasons, one of which I was disillusioned
with the way Eckankar had gone.  It was feeling too much like
Christianity in it's direction.  I didn't all of a sudden pack up and
leave, I dwindled in my activities.  Also, I felt it was more than a
bit  me, the reason for leaving, than it was anything else, it wasn't
working for me.  I wasn't motivated to live the lifestyle that I felt
it was calling for.  I am not a religious person, I can't lead a
religious lifestyle.  Is that a lack of discipline? perhaps.
I was in Eckankar from 1974 till 2004(ish) initiation level,  I guess
as you said, for "what it's worth" not worth mentioning.  I know that
I couldn't regurgitate the "gospel" according to so and so and feel
sincere about it.  I was playing a part that I didn't feel comfortable
with completely.  Kind of felt like what Paul was telling us not to
do...  it is quite evident that a lot of Eckist do exactly that.  The
coined responses to key questions, as if they had no minds of their
own, they just know the appropriate response for the specific
question.  I am not slamming anyone on that, it's the same thing that
anyone in any religion does.  They know they answer according to the
preacher, priest, guru, etc.
I said once in here, that I am not a "mental" person so filling my
head with quotes and verses was not my thing.  I was being groomed for
something I didn't want to do.
I actually was more of a musician.  In fact someone told me that one
of my songs, on one of the CDs is still played at the seminars...
interesting.
I don't feel anger toward Eckankar, I was 14 when I started, perhaps
12 at my introduction, through my Dad, my first initiation was truly
my first spiritual experience of leaving the body (which I don't feel
has to be a spiritual experience anymore-- but that's another
discussion) Darwin was the Master at that time it was quite the real
experience for me.  I understand more clearly all of that now.
Anyway reading all of the posts here and reading Lane's stuff and some
other's is somewhat new to me, so I have questions about all of that.
I can now see clearly how Paul started  Eckankar and perhaps a little
bit about his intentions.  I confess that I am reading Doug's book
right now.  I like the historical perspective, I am taking to heart
that he is definitely coming at it with an Eckist's perspective.  I
accept that, and respect him for that.  I actually appreciate the book
because I feel I am able to balance out a lot of things while reading
this.  Balancing from both sides to be quite honest.
Ok that is where I am coming from.
I have not read about Cults or anything of that nature, I don't
clearly know what you are referring to, but isn't any religion guilty
of putting out information and only information that they feel is what
is "best" for their followers.  I tend to think of all religions as a
cult.
I was not going to ramble here, and here I am doing that... I was
about to go on, but I'll stop here.
Andy

I'm wondering about the meaning of a few of your comments.
1) Do you feel at all as if you failed in Eckankar?
2) Do you still think Eckankar, and the Eck masters (Klemp) were all
that they

...
read more »

The thing about Eckankar, something worthy of
consideration, IMO, the teachings are composed
(to some extent) of teachings that existed before
"Eckankar" the organization existed. Therefore, I
think it fair to say not all of the teachings "belong"
exclusively to Eckankar the religion. Also, look at
the quotes by people who were NOT "Eck Masters"
and the books that were NOT "Eckankar" books.
To what extent could information "belong" (to the
"Eckankar organization and religion") if it did not
originate from that religion / organization?

See what I am saying about "the thing" (IMO)
worthy of consideration?

These teachings of Eckankar are not all new. I
see the association for the source of such teach-
ings with Eckankar Inc. mean that historic, actual
and original sources had to be changed, renamed
and / or hidden in some cases. It doesn't change
the fact there are teachings belonging to Eckankar
that belong to other groups and people, too. There
are differences between the organizations, groups,
peoples and religions. And I think it's interesting to
consider certain teachings were "incorporated" by
many of them! Certain teachings were credited to
people many years removed from the experience
and the person(s) the teachings originated from in
the first place!

"[....] No matter which way you turn, if it's away from
Eckankar, you've made a wrong turn. With this app-
roach, you can't use reason to determine anything
about Eckankar, because that means you're not suff-
iciently aware. In this manner, people become trapped."

Tianyue,

I Think I see where you're coming from. Eckankar is
not very inclined, perhaps, to reveal all of the actual
sources from which Paul Twitchell compiled information
for the teachings of Eckankar. Not if it causes so many
"Eck Masters" to disappear. Eck Masters are "source"
for much of the teachings - in the way Paul Twitchell
wrote things up in a number of places. "Eck Masters"
are what "belong to" Eckankar Inc. "Eck Masters" are
what is "unique" about Eckankar, the religion. Remove
the "Eck Masters" and that leaves one looking at so
many other proposed "sources" for the teachings. At
so may other paths, religions and / or self-proclaimed
masters and clergy.

Perhaps it wasn't so important to Paul Twitchell and
Eckankar what was the "source" for so many teachings
that religions like to call their own. I'm guessing that it
was the appeal (and later the popularity) of numerous
principles, ideals and teachings that "fueled the motor"
for Eckankar and made it into a modern day "religion".
A religion familiar with the term "artistic license" as a
means for promoting a religion. A religion not unaware
of popular demand, either.

Some opinions I'm looking at.

Etznab

[JR]

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.

TY asked:
1) Do you feel at all as if you failed in Eckankar?
2) Do you still think Eckankar, and the Eck masters (Klemp) were all
that they claimed? Is Eckankar authentic?

If these two questions are not intended to answer your questions,
AF59, please contemplate for me if ECKANKAR is a religious collective
intended to provide a religious experience or if it is simply a
resource to draw your own conclusions from in defining your Spiritual
Identity for yourself. Growing up in a nation predominately Christian
and going to church with faithful parents instills a conscience I do
not see humanist objectivists capable of doing, else we would have
fewer problems today instead of more useless laws like bicycle helmets
for everyone simply because a lawmaker wants to brown-nose the medical
establishment's sycophantic insurance carriers. In other words, I
agree with you. Religions are part of the problem and rarely part of
the solution. Personal communication and experience with S-U-G-M-A-D
through the Sound & Light as an individual is what a personal path is
all about. You are your own religion if you need one. If not, that is
OK also.

The next angel you meet might be wearing a beat-up leather jacket,
need a shave, look like Uighur, and trying to beat a new cigarette
habit. You never know. Whatever you need for your Spiritual unfoldment
is for you and you only. Your music if you still pursue it is your
manner for expressing what you personally find precious; and as
precious as a whole room full of monks chanting a death ceremony for a
Soul crossing into the Bardo.

The same holds true for an ECK Master. He is just doing what his
unique Identity unfolded into for the moment.

JR
Time to change the sprinklers.

[TianYue]

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.

1) Do you feel at all as if you failed in Eckankar?
2) Do you still think Eckankar, and the Eck masters (Klemp) were all
that they claimed? Is Eckankar authentic?
If these two questions are not intended to answer your questions,
AF59, please contemplate for me if ECKANKAR is a religious collective
intended to provide a religious experience or if it is simply a
resource to draw your own conclusions from in defining your Spiritual
Identity for yourself.

Hmm. Do you agree with the Eckankar doctrine that a person in the
physical body needs a master in the physical body to get the complete
link up to the sound current? That the chela needs the satguru? The
inner and outer master?

Or do you reject that, and believe that the master isn't necessary?

Tianyue

















Growing up in a nation predominately Christian

Post by TianYue
and going to church with faithful parents instills a conscience I do
not see humanist objectivists capable of doing, else we would have
fewer problems today instead of more useless laws like bicycle helmets
for everyone simply because a lawmaker wants to brown-nose the medical
establishment's sycophantic insurance carriers. In other words, I
agree with you. Religions are part of the problem and rarely part of
the solution. Personal communication and experience with S-U-G-M-A-D
through the Sound & Light as an individual is what a personal path is
all about. You are your own religion if you need one. If not, that is
OK also.
The next angel you meet might be wearing a beat-up leather jacket,
need a shave, look like Uighur, and trying to beat a new cigarette
habit. You never know. Whatever you need for your Spiritual unfoldment
is for you and you only. Your music if you still pursue it is your
manner for expressing what you personally find precious; and as
precious as a whole room full of monks chanting a death ceremony for a
Soul crossing into the Bardo.
The same holds true for an ECK Master. He is just doing what his
unique Identity unfolded into for the moment.
JR
Time to change the sprinklers.

[JR]

Post by TianYue

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.

1) Do you feel at all as if you failed in Eckankar?
2) Do you still think Eckankar, and the Eck masters (Klemp) were all
that they claimed? Is Eckankar authentic?
If these two questions are not intended to answer your questions,
AF59, please contemplate for me if ECKANKAR is a religious collective
intended to provide a religious experience or if it is simply a
resource to draw your own conclusions from in defining your Spiritual
Identity for yourself.

Hmm. Do you agree with the Eckankar doctrine that a person in the
physical body needs a master in the physical body to get the complete
link up to the sound current? That the chela needs the satguru? The
inner and outer master?
Or do you reject that, and believe that the master isn't necessary?
Tianyue

Please guide me to where this doctrine is in print published by
ECKANKAR. I do not recall seeing the word "doctrine" in the Shariyat-
KI-SUGMAD where I go to for the collective's authority on ECKANKAR
when I am not making my own "docrtine."

My doctrine meets, regarding the above concepts you name, on the same
ground as Evans-Wentz, Sri Harold Klemp, Sri Darwin Gross, Sri Paul
Twitchell, and the Judeo-Christian Bible. By the way, Sri Twitchell
has spoken that "when you need something, you become dominated by it."
Neither ECKANKAR or Richard Smith of Hawaii dominate me; nor would I
allow it if I thought they were trying to do so.

JR

[TianYue]

Post by JR

Post by TianYue

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.

1) Do you feel at all as if you failed in Eckankar?
2) Do you still think Eckankar, and the Eck masters (Klemp) were all
that they claimed? Is Eckankar authentic?
If these two questions are not intended to answer your questions,
AF59, please contemplate for me if ECKANKAR is a religious collective
intended to provide a religious experience or if it is simply a
resource to draw your own conclusions from in defining your Spiritual
Identity for yourself.

Hmm. Do you agree with the Eckankar doctrine that a person in the
physical body needs a master in the physical body to get the complete
link up to the sound current? That the chela needs the satguru? The
inner and outer master?
Or do you reject that, and believe that the master isn't necessary?
Tianyue

Please guide me to where this doctrine is in print published by
ECKANKAR. I do not recall seeing the word "doctrine" in the Shariyat-
KI-SUGMAD where I go to for the collective's authority on ECKANKAR
when I am not making my own "docrtine."
My doctrine meets, regarding the above concepts you name, on the same
ground as Evans-Wentz, Sri Harold Klemp, Sri Darwin Gross, Sri Paul
Twitchell, and the Judeo-Christian Bible. By the way, Sri Twitchell
has spoken that "when you need something, you become dominated by it."
Neither ECKANKAR or Richard Smith of Hawaii dominate me; nor would I
allow it if I thought they were trying to do so.
JR

Here's some reading material for you:

The following quotes are from THE SHARIYAT KI SUGMAD Book One, by Paul
Twitchell:

"The mission of true spirituality can only be carried on successully
by
the living ECK Master . . . whoever attempts to reach God can only go
through the Mahanta and not throught those who are seeking possession
of the world." pg. 135

"Only those who have received the Word in initiation can be given the
blessings of the SUGMAD through the Mahanta." pg. 137

[Those who doubt or follow other masters] "speak with false tongues
for
none but the living ECK Master has the authority to speak in the name
of the SUGMAD." pg. 138

"Those who need the living ECK Master will always stay with him, but
those who feel that they are beyond this are wrong in their thinking.
They have not examined the truth, and will go afoul of the illusions
established by the Kal." pg. 143

"The highway into the Kingdom of Heaven is narrow, and the way is
strewn with the spiritual corpses of those who have failed. Only
those
who give up all for the love of the Mahanta can ever reach the gates
of
paradise." pg. 125

"He who listens to the living ECK Master and obeys him will have his
love and will be freed of his wordly karma. He will enter into the
spiritual worlds a free Soul." pg. 125

"If the living Eck Master performs a miracle of healing, of bringing
justice, or giving one something of a material nature, be not
surprised
for it is in his nature to do such things when necessary . . . he is
the only one that can do such things. All others are false masters,
false prophets and false when they try to give and have no means to
give. No one but the living ECK Master is the divine channel for
these
gifts of God." pg. 125

"He who seeks to keep his life shall never have it. But whosoever
loses his life in the love of the Mahanta shall have it in eternity.
And whosoever shall give of his material life to the ECK shall have it
thricefold returned unto him in spiritual blessings. No man with
riches shall enter into the Kingdom of God, for he shall leave them on
earth with his temple of flesh and both shall rot away into oblivion."
pg. 126

" . . . the living ECK Master is the only one who truly knows what
Soul
is." pg. 126

"In order to understand the living ECK Master, stop talking, stop
thinking, stop analyzing him and his worldly actions, and then you
will
understand all things. If the chela will look for the Light and Sound
within the living ECK Master, all things will be revealed to him."
pg.
128

"Within the visions of the SUGMAD are the followers of ECKANKAR who in
some way or other betray the living ECK Master." pg. 132

[The living ECK Master]"knows how each will end his life upon this
earth, whether he will stray from the path or will be critical, upset
and unhappy with the Master and whether he will betray the Master
during his sojourn as an ECK chela." pg. 132

"The Mahanta is not concerned with what either the chela or the public
thinks about him. He expects misunderstandings to arise or the masses
to attack him, and he knows that some chelas, regardless of how much
love is poured upon them, will betray him because of their lack of
self-honesty." pg. 132

"Those who quarrel with the principles of ECK, or the knowledge of
whom
and what the living ECK Master is to this world, had best examine
themselves." pg. 132

"No one can get his release from the net of karma with the living ECK
Master." pg. 118

"Until the chela becomes an initiate in the works of ECK he is unable
to know and understand that he is the slave of Kal Niranjan." pg. 119

"The ECK which can be perceived by those who are not chelas is only a
shadow of IT." pg. 121

[The chela]" . . . must never weaken nor waver in his love or loyalty
to the SUGMAD and the living ECK Master." pg. 113

"No man can reach God practicing any path except devotion to the
SUGMAD
through the Mahanta." pg. 114

"There is no one else on earth but the Mahanta who can and will utter
the Word which liberates the chela and puts an end to his uncertainty.
He is the only one who can release Soul from Its prison in this world.
Otherwise there is no escape . . ." pg. 116

"The chela keeps wondering when he will reach that moment of meeting
with God. But it will never come for, if he would realize it, he is
already at that moment. Rather, he is at this focal point in eternity
for the SUGMAD is always with him, in the form of the living ECK
Master
. . . God is with him all the time as the living ECK Master, every
moment of his life." pg. 92

"Therefore, the chela should recognize that if God is with him, then
the living ECK Master is always the presence he experiences
constantly.
He should understand this and have it written upon his heart, for the
Mahanta is the vehicle God uses to reach every Soul who will listen.
This should be kept in mind constantly." pg. 92

"The chela must be dedicated to the ECK. Dedication is his greatest
asset. He must give this dedication to the Mahanta, the living ECK
Master, because he is the only manifestation of God that can be
recognized by those in the human state of consciousness. If the chela
is not possessed of this quality of dedication and loyalty to the path
of ECK, his incarnations are lengthened in this world, and he shall
not
be able to enter into the next worlds at the end of his present life."
pg. 93

"The living ECK Master strives constantly to take the chela out of the
earthly games level but he never makes rules or rituals, never lays
down laws and proclaims his way to God as the better way, although all
know that it is. He knows that all religions are pseudo and in the
minority, but never states this in any of his works. He never asks
that anyone follow his path and abide by his own conduct and words."
pg. 94

"All religions are for the benefit of the leader." pg. 94

"The living ECK Master embraces all humanity because he is the only
channel that can do so." pg. 98

"IF the chela is seeking eternity then he must first look for it
within
his own orbit. Since the living ECK Master is in this circle of being
that is the personal and universal self of the chela, then the latter
must seek it with the living ECK Master." pg. 99

"Yet on the opposing side all the power of God must reach these worlds
through the perfect instrument of the Mahanta, the living ECK Master.
There is no other way, for he is the distributor of the power." pg.
101

"When the ECK Master's position is attacked by revolt, or by
dissatisfaction among the followers of ECK, he will defend himself.
Not in the way many would expect, but in ways that few can recognize.
The defense will always come from the inner planes, and by means of
the
ECK. Those who revolt or become dissatisfied cannot bring about any
attack upon the living ECK Master or his position in life. If they
do,
there is always the swiftest of retribution, which is not always
recognized by the receiver nor those who might have observed the
occasion." pg. 101

"Those who are the children of ECK are the sons and daughters of the
divine Sound Current. They are the heroic people of their age and
they
could suffer at the hands of the orthodox who wish to keep the
doctrine
of the ECK from spreading." pg. 101

* * * * * * * * * * *

"All Souls struggling to find their way to the true path of God--the
way of ECKANKAR--will eventually seek out the living ECK Master." pg.
92

"All world religions . . . are materialistic in nature and worship the
wrong power, the wrong God. Unless a religion has for its basic
teaching the living ECK Master, the Sound Current and the Light, it
will not have longevity. Few, if any religions have such elements in
their teachings." pg. 91

"No man comes to the SUGMAD except through the Mahanta." pg. 91

" . . . to make promises which knowingly are false, is to annul one's
advancement on the spiritual path." pg. 91

[The Mahanta, the living ECK Master] "is stronger than any man in
intellect or spirit, for he has unlimited power, yet this strength is
combined with the noble virtues of the humble and gentle. All people
find in him inspiration for the development of noble character . . .
he
is the greatest religious leader on earth." pg. 81

" . . . therefore, all who wish the truth of ECK must follow the
Mahanta, the living ECK Master. The SUGMAD cannot instruct, or give
man the needed help on the upward path, without the Mahanta in human
form to act as his instrument and spokesman . . . only the living ECK
Master can offer the chela a definite method by which he can prove all
things to himself." pg. 83

"It is not possible to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven except through
the teachings of ECKANKAR." pg. 83

"However, the ECK initiate of the Second Circle will rise above any of
these lower worlds upon the decease of the physical vehicle. He will
enter into the Atma world at once, escorted by the living
Mahanta . . .
however, if any Soul who is a chela or initiate leaves the path of ECK
for another way to the heavenly worlds . . . he must expect his karma
to be extended. His karmic burden increases as he gathers more, going
through incarnation after incarnation searching blindly for what he
has
given up . . . no one but the living Mahanta can take him out of this
plane of matter." pg. 83

"Woe be to him who tries to travel another path of religious doctrine
or spiritual wordks while at the same time a chela of the living ECK
Master . . . if he becomes an initiate in ECKANKAR there shall be no
wavering from the path unless he wishes an adverse life and falling
into disgrace." pg. 84

"Those Souls which follow the beckoning finger of Niranjan to
organized
religion shall take the wrong turn of the road. None but the living
ECK Master, who has descended to the worlds of matter to give all
Souls
an opportunity to return to Heaven, is capable of offering this
opportunity. All others are false prophets and shall not be heeded."
pg. 44

"The sweet whispers of this negative genius [Kal] are heard in the
voices of those who make claims to be the prophets of the times and
the
preachers, clergy and priests who represent the old orthodox
religions." Pg. 44

"Never talk of achievements in ECK, for this brings only disaster to
the chela." pg. 45

"Every Soul is liberated from the material worlds upon Initiation by
the Mahanta, who has been granted this power by the SUGMAD . . . the
uninitiated are those who have not received liberation through
Initiation from the Mahanta. Baptism will not fulfill the necessity of
liberation. Neither will the joining of any cult, religion or faith.
Only the living ECK Master has the power to initiate Souls and take
them to the regions of light." pg. 57

"Unless the chela believes in the Mahanta, has faith in the ECK, and
trusts the SUGMAD--completely--he has spent his time worthlessly."
pg.
57

"Those who cease to believe in the Mahanta must pay the price. The
payment is in accord with their degree of capability. Since the inner
Master is only the vehicle for the SUGMAD, all persons who are
followintg the path of ECK must look to him as the representative of
the ECK power on Earth. He is not the Master of anyone who is not
following the path of ECKANKAR." pg. 58

"The ECK Master establishes miraculous power in the chela when they
meet for the chela's last incarnation in the Earth world." pg. 58

"The final goal of good karma is to bring the chela to the living ECK
Master and to learn the true path to the SUGMAD. This is the very
highest reward of good karma, assuring the chela of his liberation
from
the Wheel of the Eighty-Four." pg. 59

"No Soul that is an Initiate of the ECK will have to account for Its
deeds and actions with the lower realm of the Kal world. It is
through
with all earthly karma and must now begin to work out the karma of its
actions on the astral plane." pg. 65

"Only the ECK Masters have reached the fifth state of spiritual
development, where they enter into the Atma plane at will. They have
gone far beyond this stage and entered into the Anami level with the
true Godhead." pg. 66

"The Mahanta is able to be seen by all his chelas simultaneously for
he
is of the ECK ITSELF. Being the Spirit of all things he is,
therefore,
capable of giving the secret teachings to all Initiates of ECKANKAR,
or
to protect and give them the necessities of life. He knows that goes
on in the minds of every chela and all people. If he so chooses he
knows the thoughts of animals and of every embodiment of life." pg.
67

" . . . the SUGMAD was moved to incarnate ITSELF as the Mahanta, the
living ECK Master, and to give the Truth of the path of salvation in
simple language." pg. 69

"The agents of Kal, who call themselves Men of God, have concealed and
done away with all truly religious scriptures. They have replaced
them
with the pseudo scriptures, and claim they are the Books of God." pg.
70

"Man loves miracles." pg. 70

[Doug]

Andy,

I just wanted to say that I enjoyed reading your post.

The kind of soul searching that goes through any major change in our
spiritual path, is always challenging, but also hugely rewarding.

Thanks for your kind words about my book. I did hope that it would
help those who had left Eckankar, as well as any who have ever had an
interest in Paul and what he taught. I'm obviously completely biased,
but I think it is a fascinating story. It was for me, anyway.

Thanks for the sharing.

Doug.

Post by AF59
Not trying to Parrot anyone or anything.
My questions are sincere and not meant to offend, and the fact that I
have said very little in here for the last, I don't know many, years
hopefully would convey to  you that I am not here to
joust.  I was just curious.  I guess I could go back and read all the
threads to find out, but I was just curious.
I left Eckankar for many reasons, one of which I was disillusioned
with the way Eckankar had gone.  It was feeling too much like
Christianity in it's direction.  I didn't all of a sudden pack up and
leave, I dwindled in my activities.  Also, I felt it was more than a
bit  me, the reason for leaving, than it was anything else, it wasn't
working for me.  I wasn't motivated to live the lifestyle that I felt
it was calling for.  I am not a religious person, I can't lead a
religious lifestyle.  Is that a lack of discipline? perhaps.
I was in Eckankar from 1974 till 2004(ish) initiation level,  I guess
as you said, for "what it's worth" not worth mentioning.  I know that
I couldn't regurgitate the "gospel" according to so and so and feel
sincere about it.  I was playing a part that I didn't feel comfortable
with completely.  Kind of felt like what Paul was telling us not to
do...  it is quite evident that a lot of Eckist do exactly that.  The
coined responses to key questions, as if they had no minds of their
own, they just know the appropriate response for the specific
question.  I am not slamming anyone on that, it's the same thing that
anyone in any religion does.  They know they answer according to the
preacher, priest, guru, etc.
I said once in here, that I am not a "mental" person so filling my
head with quotes and verses was not my thing.  I was being groomed for
something I didn't want to do.
I actually was more of a musician.  In fact someone told me that one
of my songs, on one of the CDs is still played at the seminars...
interesting.
I don't feel anger toward Eckankar, I was 14 when I started, perhaps
12 at my introduction, through my Dad, my first initiation was truly
my first spiritual experience of leaving the body (which I don't feel
has to be a spiritual experience anymore-- but that's another
discussion) Darwin was the Master at that time it was quite the real
experience for me.  I understand more clearly all of that now.
Anyway reading all of the posts here and reading Lane's stuff and some
other's is somewhat new to me, so I have questions about all of that.
I can now see clearly how Paul started  Eckankar and perhaps a little
bit about his intentions.  I confess that I am reading Doug's book
right now.  I like the historical perspective, I am taking to heart
that he is definitely coming at it with an Eckist's perspective.  I
accept that, and respect him for that.  I actually appreciate the book
because I feel I am able to balance out a lot of things while reading
this.  Balancing from both sides to be quite honest.
Ok that is where I am coming from.
I have not read about Cults or anything of that nature, I don't
clearly know what you are referring to, but isn't any religion guilty
of putting out information and only information that they feel is what
is "best" for their followers.  I tend to think of all religions as a
cult.
I was not going to ramble here, and here I am doing that... I was
about to go on, but I'll stop here.
Andy

Post by TianYue

Post by AF59
ok,
Ex Eckist here, I read these posts kind of randomly
I am wondering why there is so much hostility Sharon?
Again, I am EX Eckist, but I don't feel the bitterness that you do.
I am disillusioned , disturbed, kind of without direction, and trying
to sort it all out, but I am not this angry.
What really happened that was so bad to make you feel this way?
I am not slamming you here, that is not my intention, but when it's
time to move on, isn't it just time to move on?
Didn't Eckankar serve a purpose for you, to get you to where you are
now?  Wouldn't that be kind of a good thing?
I am a pretty simple person of thought, please forgive my naivete in
this matter.
Andy

The "move on" notion is usually parroted by members of Eckankar. Can
you tell us why you left? PLease answer, I seriously would like to
know. And how long were you a member, Andy?
When I first left, I suppose I may have made comments like yours, but
over time, I began to realize just how far reaching and irresponsible
the lies of Eckankar really are. It sometimes takes time (perhaps
years) before all the personal ramifications become apparent. It isn't
just some benign path with a few harmless fictions. I was a member
since I was 16, and was a member for 28 years. I was a sixth initiate,
for what it's worth. If you want to know why people feel more strongly
than you, read some books on cults, and cult psychology.
Tianyue

Post by AF59

Post by SharonBT
Now, I'd think that Klemp would want to publish the very best
information in the eckbooks, since that's where most members get the
most information.  Perhaps he was transmitting "ecology & convention
facilities" on the inner, but I didn't get it.  <gg>
Levels?   So, on which levels do you think the different eckcuses fit?
Is it "higher" or "lower" to believe in evil psychic forces which
evidently threaten to overpower eckies who would gather in the area?
So maybe keeping eckies of all initiations away from Sedona was the
way "the master" was protecting them?  You know, sort of the way your
ID card protects you from dying in your sleep from what might look
like a heart attack but is really because you were attacked by evil
witches & warlocks?  (See:  http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html
)
South American politics pushing people into overpopulated Mexico &
then into the US?   I wonder what the real statistics are?   I know
people from several South American countries who came to the US many
years ago.  They skipped Mexico & came straight to the US, usually by
plane.  One took a boat.  Actually, a big ship.   Maybe Klemp just
meant poor people on foot?
Oh, just had a thought - did Klemp tell you there weren't adequate
convention facilities before or after ekult lost the court fight for
Helen Frye's land?   Hmmm....thinking of the timing, it must've been
afterwards since Darwin was in power when that went to court.
A thought.....my mind tends to wander....if Klemp is so concerned
about ecology, isn't messing with the weather affecting the ecology?
I remember reading The Word of THE ECK about how the move from CA to
MN changed the weather, and another story where sending out a lot of
pink initiation slips caused a heat wave in MN.   I remember a winter
hot spell back in the 80's.  I lost quite a few beautiful rose
bushes.
And evidently another reason the Klempster didn't mention to the
members, although I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned it to you
but you just didn't mention it, was non-profit tax laws or whatever
are better in MN than in either AZ or CA?
Is is better tax-wise to be a "religion" or just a non-profit?   Just
wondering here...mind wandering.....now, many of us remember back when
it seemed like every newsletter was announcing a new "official blurb"
- "Spiritual Path", "Way of Life", "New-Age Religion", I kept losing
track & not being able to remember, but thought the "Religion of the
Light & Sound of God" was long & a bit awkward.
Actually, Doug, I *am* interested in an answer - but the kind of
"answer" you did with Twitch's plagiarism/literarytheft.   You know,
one of your long squirmy soporific "whole truth" things!!   Or what
you used to do with Lurk, keeping him off-track and away from the real
& serious issues of ekult's lies and deceptions, with your distracting
smooth-salesman "dialogues".
Hey, back when I was an eckie you were a really "high" initiate, RESA,
ESA, all that other stuff - you must be *really* HI-er now!!!    Like,
a 10th or 11th?
How long have you & Klemp been buddies?   Did you become friends when
he was married to Marge & working in the darkroom?   Wow, that's
another thing I wondered about when I was an eckist, how "The Master"
kept the chelas balanced, but Marge couldn't handle his power flows so
they had to divorce?   Yep, most wives have a problem with those
"power flows" when their husband is having an affair with one of the
office girls.
Okay, I've been buzzing around here long enough.....yes, I'll tell my
True Master you said hi!!   Those were the days, weren't they!!!
A.R.E. used to be a lot more fun, and I had a rollicking good
time!!!    <giggle>
SHARON
PS - Hey, Etznab - I just noticed, I'm "replying" from Google, right
up above between the "newsgroups" and text boxes you can "AddCc, Add
Followup-to, or Edit Subject".   But I think if you change the subject
it'll always show up in the same thread.   And hey, if anyone does
ever find really solid unbiased & accurate stuff on the Holocaust I'd
be interested, of course it frequently depends just on the person's
point of view, and it's not really that important once you get into
those really high numbers.  I just wish the Jews & Palestinians would
learn how to share and just get along.  Good grief, there's plenty of
desert over there that could be transformed into livable & productive
land

...
read more »

[TianYue]

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back.   Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
      "I'm moving it for several reasons.  In the past there have been
a
      number of psychic forces hovering around the site.  We've also
had
      to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
      to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
      southwestern United States."   Klemp, "Be The Hu"  (special
cultbook
      for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
      to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
So...you just wonder!!   Also, there's the little matter of the temple
site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member.  She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
them
about this whole matter.   "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
the
Latino invasion:   An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures.  The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years.   California has negative latino growth. And guess what!   The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation?  Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home?  Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"?   Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court battle
over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet.   And, since this I
also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in other eckbooks
without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but say
something entirely different to members, who I daresay were just as
innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally clueless about
all the cult's dirt.  I believed The Word Of The Living Eck Master,
the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record.  Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the dirt,
and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the card-carrying
mushrooms.   Geez, he could've just said he was moving from AZ to MN
because Suggie told him too!!
SHARON

You're obviously right, the whole Helen Frye ordeal was likely a big
part of the reason for moving.

But you know, since Klemp published his Latino concerns in "Be the
Hu", which means the comment was deemed worthy enough to survive
editing by his paid staff, please don't ask Doug to question his word.
That's unfair of you. While its fine to question things that are
obviously proven and factual (like other good, self respecting, anti-
science fundamentalists), why doubt Klemp? He obviously feared the
area would become overrun with Hispanics, among other problems.

And it's true that in the small towns of the part of the Midwest Klemp
hails from, some folks have never seen a person of color. But as
you've pointed out, all that is changing now, as Hispanics have moved
in to take jobs that Norte Americanos just don't want, such as jobs in
meat packing plants. Entire communities are in an uproar, passing
English only laws quicker than you can say "ay, caramba!"

Well, Klemp is not alone in his concerns. Kevin Strom, the noted
defender of European racial stock, is against the intrusions of our
Latin American brothers, as well. He wouldn't mind them coming if they
were white, but the non-whites need not apply, as far as he's
concerned. Here's what the infamous Kevin Strom, recently discussed
here on A.R.E. (without objection to his views from anyone except me,
so I figure it's acceptable to post his comments on this thread) had
to say about Klemp's concerns:

Immigration: Not About Race?

http://www.kevinalfredstrom.com/2009/05/immigration-and-race/#more-858

by Kevin Alfred Strom

Begin quote:

WHILE I WAS in a restaurant the other day with a few friends and their
children, I saw another group enter the establishment and take a table
nearby. It was a handsome-looking White family, a father and mother
with a teenage son and daughter. I was close enough to hear parts of
their conversation.

The father was almost a double for a writer I know personally, a
rugged-looking brunet of medium height with piercing eyes and ruddy
complexion, about 50, with a tall, fine-haired slender blonde wife
perhaps ten or twelve years younger. The children were well-behaved,
good-looking, and intermediate in appearance to their parents, to whom
they bore an obvious family resemblance. They weren’t speaking
English.

Where were they from? I wondered. Listening a little more closely, I
realized they were speaking Spanish. As we left the restaurant, one of
the young children in my party decided to try her schoolgirl Spanish
on the lady of the family at the other table. The wife was delighted
to be greeted in her native tongue and spoke a bit in Spanish with the
little girl in our group, then switched to flawless and almost
unaccented English to talk to the rest of us. Her husband was a
mechanical engineer working on a project in this country, and she was
an accomplished pianist and music instructor. Both spoke three
languages, French being the third.

I eventually asked where they hailed from. The answer was Mexico,
where they were born and where they had lived almost all their lives.
They were Mexicans. They were Mexicans of entirely European descent.
They were Hispanics. And in those facts there are two lessons.

The first lesson is that using the term “Hispanic” for the Mestizos
who are crossing our southern marches is inappropriate. The term
Hispanic, strictly speaking, should be used only to refer to people of
Iberian descent — like this family. Even as it is it misused today,
the word “Hispanic” is racially ambiguous. It can refer to a Spanish-
speaking Black — or a totally European person from Spain or from the
substantial Spanish-speaking White populations of Latin America. We
should prefer racial terms when we’re talking about race. That’s why
we should, like Latin Americans themselves, say “Mestizo” when
referring to those of mixed European and Amerindian descent, and
“Amerindian” or, better yet, a proper tribal or national name when
referring to Amerindians. (Often, except when it causes
misunderstandings, it’s good to call people what they call themselves.
It might be a good thing if the Nation of Aztlan nationalists forged a
new name for their people, replacing the broad-brush words “Hispanic”
or “Mexican” that have almost no biological meaning. “American,” by
the way, is rapidly becoming meaningless too.) Race is what matters.
And that brings us to the second lesson illustrated by my restaurant
encounter.

The accomplished and cultured White family from Mexico I met is no
more likely than I am to join MS-13 or chop someone’s head off with a
machete. This family is not a threat to our culture — in fact, it
would not surprise me if they were more imbued with Western culture
than 95 per cent. of Americans and Europeans. And this family, most
important of all, is not a threat to our gene pool. They are as
European as any of us, they are indistinguishable from us, and their
offspring could intermarry with ours and our future generations would
continue as ever, their destiny undimmed. And all of this would remain
true no matter what papers they had or didn’t have in their wallets.
It would remain true even if these engineers and piano virtuosi came
here illegally. What really matters isn’t laws or papers or even
geography. It’s race. It’s genes. And we can never have sane laws or
sane immigration policies until we understand that fact.

The anti-immigration “conservatives” on Fox News are always screaming
about how they’re “not racists” and how “it’s not about race, it’s
about obeying the law.” Well, if it’s about “the law,” what are they
going to say when Congress simply legalizes every illegal immigrant?
They won’t be able to say a thing. The conservatives are simply wrong.
In fact, they’re more than wrong — they’re lying. It is about race.

End quote

[TianYue]

Post by TianYue

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back.   Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
      "I'm moving it for several reasons.  In the past there have been
a
      number of psychic forces hovering around the site.  We've also
had
      to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
      to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
      southwestern United States."   Klemp, "Be The Hu"  (special
cultbook
      for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
      to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
So...you just wonder!!   Also, there's the little matter of the temple
site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member.  She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
them
about this whole matter.   "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
the
Latino invasion:   An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures.  The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years.   California has negative latino growth. And guess what!   The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation?  Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home?  Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"?   Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court battle
over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet.   And, since this I
also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in other eckbooks
without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but say
something entirely different to members, who I daresay were just as
innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally clueless about
all the cult's dirt.  I believed The Word Of The Living Eck Master,
the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record.  Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the dirt,
and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the card-carrying
mushrooms.   Geez, he could've just said he was moving from AZ to MN
because Suggie told him too!!
SHARON

You're obviously right, the whole Helen Frye ordeal was likely a big
part of the reason for moving.
But you know, since Klemp published his Latino concerns in "Be the
Hu", which means the comment was deemed worthy enough to survive
editing by his paid staff, please don't ask Doug to question his word.
That's unfair of you. While its fine to question things that are
obviously proven and factual (like other good, self respecting, anti-
science fundamentalists), why doubt Klemp? He obviously feared the
area would become overrun with Hispanics, among other problems.
And it's true that in the small towns of the part of the Midwest Klemp
hails from, some folks have never seen a person of color. But as
you've pointed out, all that is changing now, as Hispanics have moved
in to take jobs that Norte Americanos just don't want, such as jobs in
meat packing plants.  Entire communities are in an uproar, passing
English only laws quicker than you can say "ay, caramba!"
Well, Klemp is not alone in his concerns. Kevin Strom, the noted
defender of European racial stock, is against the intrusions of our
Latin American brothers, as well. He wouldn't mind them coming if they
were white, but the non-whites need not apply, as far as he's
concerned. Here's what the infamous Kevin Strom, recently discussed
here on A.R.E. (without objection to his views from anyone except me,
so I figure it's acceptable to post his comments on this thread) had
Immigration: Not About Race?
http://www.kevinalfredstrom.com/2009/05/immigration-and-race/#more-858
by Kevin Alfred Strom
WHILE I WAS in a restaurant the other day with a few friends and their
children, I saw another group enter the establishment and take a table
nearby. It was a handsome-looking White family, a father and mother
with a teenage son and daughter. I was close enough to hear parts of
their conversation.
The father was almost a double for a writer I know personally, a
rugged-looking brunet of medium height with piercing eyes and ruddy
complexion, about 50, with a tall, fine-haired slender blonde wife
perhaps ten or twelve years younger. The children were well-behaved,
good-looking, and intermediate in appearance to their parents, to whom
they bore an obvious family resemblance. They weren’t speaking
English.
Where were they from? I wondered. Listening a little more closely, I
realized they were speaking Spanish. As we left the restaurant, one of
the young children in my party decided to try her schoolgirl Spanish
on the lady of the family at the other table. The wife was delighted
to be greeted in her native tongue and spoke a bit in Spanish with the
little girl in our group, then switched to flawless and almost
unaccented English to talk to the rest of us. Her husband was a
mechanical engineer working on a project in this country, and she was
an accomplished pianist and music instructor. Both spoke three
languages, French being the third.
I eventually asked where they hailed from. The answer was Mexico,
where they were born and where they had lived almost all their lives.
They were Mexicans. They were Mexicans of entirely European descent.
They were Hispanics. And in those facts there are two lessons.
The first lesson is that using the term “Hispanic” for the Mestizos
who are crossing our southern marches is inappropriate. The term
Hispanic, strictly speaking, should be used only to refer to people of
Iberian descent — like this family. Even as it is it misused today,
the word “Hispanic” is racially ambiguous. It can refer to a Spanish-
speaking Black — or a totally European person from Spain or from the
substantial Spanish-speaking White populations of Latin America. We
should prefer racial terms when we’re talking about race. That’s why
we should, like Latin Americans themselves, say “Mestizo” when
referring to those of mixed European and Amerindian descent, and
“Amerindian” or, better yet, a proper tribal or national name when
referring to Amerindians. (Often, except when it causes
misunderstandings, it’s good to call people what they call themselves.
It might be a good thing if the Nation of Aztlan nationalists forged a
new name for their people, replacing the broad-brush words “Hispanic”
or “Mexican” that have almost no biological meaning. “American,” by
the way, is rapidly becoming meaningless too.) Race is what matters.
And that brings us to the second lesson illustrated by my restaurant
encounter.
The accomplished and cultured White family from Mexico I met is no
more likely than I am to join MS-13 or chop someone’s head off with a
machete. This family is not a threat to our culture — in fact, it
would not surprise me if they were more imbued with Western culture
than 95 per cent. of Americans and Europeans. And this family, most
important of all, is not a threat to our gene pool. They are as
European as any of us, they are indistinguishable from us, and their
offspring could intermarry with ours and our future generations would
continue as ever, their destiny undimmed. And all of this would remain
true no matter what papers they had or didn’t have in their wallets.
It would remain true even if these engineers and piano virtuosi came
here illegally. What really matters isn’t laws or papers or even
geography. It’s race. It’s genes. And we can never have sane laws or
sane immigration policies until we understand that fact.
The anti-immigration “conservatives” on Fox News are always screaming
about how they’re “not racists” and how “it’s not about race, it’s
about obeying the law.” Well, if it’s about “the law,” what are they
going to say when Congress simply legalizes every illegal immigrant?
They won’t be able to say a thing. The conservatives are simply wrong.
In fact, they’re more than wrong — they’re lying. It is about race.
End quote

This brings back the memories of Paul Twitchell's principle that mixed
marriages intermingled the karma of different races. He wanted to
maintain racial purity as well, just like Strom. No one back then had
the temerity to question PT's edict, although I just ignored it. I
think a lot of the young Eckists of those early days just overlooked
some of PT's weird comments.

Was PT just a tad racist? I don't honestly know, but he made some
eyebrow raising statements about race here and there in his writings.
He was from the South.

Tianyue

[SharonBT]

On Jul 9, 3:41 am, TianYue <***@earthlink.net> wrote:
Hi Leaf!

So, nice to see you!! And I'm sort of laughing about being here, but
I guess it's a better way to use up some time than watching bad
reality show re-runs. Hmmm....when I think about it, that's actually
what ekult is, you get a bunch of really odd people together in a
rented mansion, it's like watching a train wreck!

And speaking of reality shows, one of those characters is becoming
quite a success and I wonder if it's because she uses the "hu"?? I
suspect you're one of those people who don't watch a lot of TV but
when you do, it's probably PBS, which I also watch, but I'll flip on
the junk, too. Anyway, our famous hu-er is a female known as "New
York" who started out on "Flavor of Love" (I'd never heard of Flavor
Flav, after watching this show I couldn't help wondering, who'd want
him???) Anyway, New York lost after being spit on by (forget her
name) and went on to get several of her own reality shows, so she's
doing well. I forget the links, gotta update ET ones of these days,
evidently she credited "the hu" for problem solving on the Chelsea
Handler Show (which I didn't see), anyway I just think it's hilarious,
wonder if she's "ready" for an ekult ID card yet? Or maybe she
already has one?

Anyway, it's too hot for me outdoors right now. I can't really deal
with temps over 75, and prefer to do my gardening after sunset. I've
got baby tomatoes!!!!!! And I don't really feel like doing dishes or
anything else, so I'm sitting here at the computer....

Anyway, I just replied to Doug's "answer" before I finished reading my
"digest" and your posts.

Post by TianYue
You're obviously right, the whole Helen Frye ordeal was likely a big
part of the reason for moving.

Well, I haven't read it all for several years, Ford Johnson's got a
lot of transcripts posted somewhere, but I think he's downsized & has
new websites/addresses now, and I've got a link at ET to a website a
Sedona resident did some years back on Helen Frye's life that mentions
the whole ekult debacle, except to avoid lawsuits he removed the
cult's name but everyone knows which cult he's talking about. And a
lot of things that went on haven't been made public, unfortunately.
Evidently Charlie Wallace has a lot of documented dirt but I've heard
he doesn't want to share freely. And I wonder, is he still alive?
He must be pretty old by now.

Post by TianYue
But you know, since Klemp published his Latino concerns in "Be the
Hu", which means the comment was deemed worthy enough to survive
editing by his paid staff, please don't ask Doug to question his word.
That's unfair of you.

Hey, this is a.r.e. - anything goes!! Especially with slimey
"people" like Doug Marman.

But I agree, if it's in the books, it must be important. And I first
saw this in a book for 2nd initiates & above *only*!!!! That really
impressed me when I was a first, couldn't wait to get to the "higher"
stuff.

Well, it wasn't until I got out that I even got to see the secret
highest-holey hidden-wisdom mystery HI (5th & above) stuff. Boring,
same-old same-old!!


While its fine to question things that are

Post by TianYue
obviously proven and factual (like other good, self respecting, anti-
science fundamentalists), why doubt Klemp? He obviously feared the
area would become overrun with Hispanics, among other problems.

I wondered about that at the time - aren't Hispanics "soul" too?
Aren't Hispanics "ready"? They must be, since ekult offers books &
discourses in Spanish. BTW, if anyone here is interested in doing a
Spanish translation of TMOASM, it would be very welcome!!

There's now a Persian translation but it's not on the internet yet.
And of course, the German translation which was done some years back.

Post by TianYue
And it's true that in the small towns of the part of the Midwest Klemp
hails from, some folks have never seen a person of color. But as
you've pointed out, all that is changing now, as Hispanics have moved
in to take jobs that Norte Americanos just don't want, such as jobs in
meat packing plants.  Entire communities are in an uproar, passing
English only laws quicker than you can say "ay, caramba!"

Hey, it's not just the Midwest!! I spent most of my life in a
"multicultural" area in PA where I never really saw prejudice, and I
was pretty shocked when my daughter married a guy from Central PA and
I became more familiar with the area, and the amount of racism is
still shocking!! Actually, 20 years ago I felt sort of weird when I
started shopping here, everyone in the groceries stores was white &
spoke English!! I'm getting used to it, plus it's changing. Even
strangers would make hateful racist comments to me, because they
assumed I felt the same way.

It's true, though, that immigrants, legal or not, generally take jobs
that local whites don't want. And usually you can't blame them. But
this isn't "new" - back in the 60's I worked for a resort that helped
a lot of Eastern Europeans escape Communism, and I thought that was
wonderful but eventually I learned that a big reason was this resort
had problems getting help for those crappy low-paying jobs, and the
way those people were treated was horrible!! But they learned
English quickly and left for better things. Then over the years I
heard they were hiring a lot of illegal Hispanics, and if someone
whispered "Immigration" all the help would disappear.

Anyway, years back when my grandkids were small and I was visiting, a
teen made a horrible racist comment in my daughter's yard and I really
flipped out on the kid and wanted to stomp him into the ground, my
daughter calmed me down & drug me into the house & said I couldn't do
that, because you just don't know who was Klan and she didn't want a
burning cross on her lawn. Yeah, I'm still shocked that there's so
much ignorance in the 2lst century!!

Post by TianYue
Well, Klemp is not alone in his concerns. Kevin Strom, the noted
defender of European racial stock, is against the intrusions of our
Latin American brothers, as well. He wouldn't mind them coming if they
were white, but the non-whites need not apply, as far as he's
concerned. Here's what the infamous Kevin Strom, recently discussed
here on A.R.E. (without objection to his views from anyone except me,
so I figure it's acceptable to post his comments on this thread) had

<snipped quoted article> Yeah, I checked out that link yesterday to
see what "someone who was there" had to say about how the Jews got
Palestine to begin with, and I got the impression that Strom was one
of those racists, I think the "eye-witness" account was a bit biased,
don't know why, but I still think the way things were divvied up after
WWII made sense at the time. And I certainly think it was a lot more
fair than what was done to Native Americans!!!! Or what the Spanish
did to the original people in Mexico, Central America, etc.

Okay, right now I don't know all the little details about the Jews
getting their own country, but wasn't there supposed to be enough to
go around, to share?

Anyway, Twitchell was very obviously racist, one of these days I've
got to compile all his racist stuff, gawd so much to do but I've sort
of lost momentum over the years, eckstuff still in boxes, etc. And
Google searches just don't produce good results for me anymore!!!
Gawd, I can't even find my own posts!!!

Did you know that natural blondes are endangered? Yep, ran across
that info a few years back, that the time is coming when there will
only be a handful left, probably in Finland or something. I don't
really get it, since I've always been partial to nice warm earth-
tones, but I can sort of understand, maybe we oughtta keep a few of
those pure blonde blue-eyed types & only let them breed with each
other just to preserve the species, you know? Anyway, what I read
was on a "scientific" site, just reporting the facts. But they don't
have to get nutsy about it, and think that blonde is better &
"higher", you know? It's just a matter of personal preference and
aesthetics.

And maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I really do believe that stuff about
"give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses" or whatever, and
I like to think of America as the land of freedom & opportunity for
*everyone*!!!

What I think the real problem is, is lowlife scumbag criminals of
*all* colors!!! Just had one of those white-power Aryan types murder
his wife & 18-month-old son the other day. It's sad.

Well, my mind's wandered off the eckstuff, and this *is* a.r.e. - oh,
while I think of it, c'mon, Leaf, give Etznab a break! I don't think
he seems at all racist, he's not the type, I feel like I've gotten to
know him a bit, in fact I had to laugh at what he said about popping
to various websites & just reading & not always really looking that
close at what kind of site it is or whatever, that's what I often do,
except he seems a lot more organized than me, and he definitely has a
better memory for details, etc. Ken used to be the least offensive
eckist here, altho a few times I've seen him trying to impress
Clergyboy Rich, but I think Etznab out-nices him. <gg>

But I *did* like that post you did about what you would've done in the
same situation.

And there's a big difference between "nice" and being slimey like Doug
Marman.

You know, this *is* alt.religion.eckankar, *not*
alt.religion.politics, Holocaust, Rumi, promote-your-latest-ebook or
whatever!!!

Okay, gotta go!

Hugs,

Sharon

[Etznab]

Post by TianYue

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back.   Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
      "I'm moving it for several reasons.  In the past there have been
a
      number of psychic forces hovering around the site.  We've also
had
      to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
      to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
      southwestern United States."   Klemp, "Be The Hu"  (special
cultbook
      for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
      to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
So...you just wonder!!   Also, there's the little matter of the temple
site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member.  She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
them
about this whole matter.   "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
the
Latino invasion:   An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures.  The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years.   California has negative latino growth. And guess what!   The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation?  Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home?  Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"?   Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court battle
over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet.   And, since this I
also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in other eckbooks
without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but say
something entirely different to members, who I daresay were just as
innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally clueless about
all the cult's dirt.  I believed The Word Of The Living Eck Master,
the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record.  Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the dirt,
and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the card-carrying
mushrooms.   Geez, he could've just said he was moving from AZ to MN
because Suggie told him too!!
SHARON

You're obviously right, the whole Helen Frye ordeal was likely a big
part of the reason for moving.
But you know, since Klemp published his Latino concerns in "Be the
Hu", which means the comment was deemed worthy enough to survive
editing by his paid staff, please don't ask Doug to question his word.
That's unfair of you. While its fine to question things that are
obviously proven and factual (like other good, self respecting, anti-
science fundamentalists), why doubt Klemp? He obviously feared the
area would become overrun with Hispanics, among other problems.
And it's true that in the small towns of the part of the Midwest Klemp
hails from, some folks have never seen a person of color. But as
you've pointed out, all that is changing now, as Hispanics have moved
in to take jobs that Norte Americanos just don't want, such as jobs in
meat packing plants.  Entire communities are in an uproar, passing
English only laws quicker than you can say "ay, caramba!"
Well, Klemp is not alone in his concerns. Kevin Strom, the noted
defender of European racial stock, is against the intrusions of our
Latin American brothers, as well. He wouldn't mind them coming if they
were white, but the non-whites need not apply, as far as he's
concerned. Here's what the infamous Kevin Strom, recently discussed
here on A.R.E. (without objection to his views from anyone except me,
so I figure it's acceptable to post his comments on this thread) had
Immigration: Not About Race?
http://www.kevinalfredstrom.com/2009/05/immigration-and-race/#more-858
by Kevin Alfred Strom
WHILE I WAS in a restaurant the other day with a few friends and their
children, I saw another group enter the establishment and take a table
nearby. It was a handsome-looking White family, a father and mother
with a teenage son and daughter. I was close enough to hear parts of
their conversation.
The father was almost a double for a writer I know personally, a
rugged-looking brunet of medium height with piercing eyes and ruddy
complexion, about 50, with a tall, fine-haired slender blonde wife
perhaps ten or twelve years younger. The children were well-behaved,
good-looking, and intermediate in appearance to their parents, to whom
they bore an obvious family resemblance. They weren’t speaking
English.
Where were they from? I wondered. Listening a little more closely, I
realized they were speaking Spanish. As we left the restaurant, one of
the young children in my party decided to try her schoolgirl Spanish
on the lady of the family at the other table. The wife was delighted
to be greeted in her native tongue and spoke a bit in Spanish with the
little girl in our group, then switched to flawless and almost
unaccented English to talk to the rest of us. Her husband was a
mechanical engineer working on a project in this country, and she was
an accomplished pianist and music instructor. Both spoke three
languages, French being the third.
I eventually asked where they hailed from. The answer was Mexico,
where they were born and where they had lived almost all their lives.
They were Mexicans. They were Mexicans of entirely European descent.
They were Hispanics. And in those facts there are two lessons.
The first lesson is that using the term “Hispanic” for the Mestizos
who are crossing our southern marches is inappropriate. The term
Hispanic, strictly speaking, should be used only to refer to people of
Iberian descent — like this family. Even as it is it misused today,
the word “Hispanic” is racially ambiguous. It can refer to a Spanish-
speaking Black — or a totally European person from Spain or from the
substantial Spanish-speaking White populations of Latin America. We
should prefer racial terms when we’re talking about race. That’s why
we should, like Latin Americans themselves, say “Mestizo” when
referring to those of mixed European and Amerindian descent, and
“Amerindian” or, better yet, a proper tribal or national name when
referring to Amerindians. (Often, except when it causes
misunderstandings, it’s good to call people what they call themselves.
It might be a good thing if the Nation of Aztlan nationalists forged a
new name for their people, replacing the broad-brush words “Hispanic”
or “Mexican” that have almost no biological meaning. “American,” by
the way, is rapidly becoming meaningless too.) Race is what matters.
And that brings us to the second lesson illustrated by my restaurant
encounter.
The accomplished and cultured White family from Mexico I met is no
more likely than I am to join MS-13 or chop someone’s head off with a
machete. This family is not a threat to our culture — in fact, it
would not surprise me if they were more imbued with Western culture
than 95 per cent. of Americans and Europeans. And this family, most
important of all, is not a threat to our gene pool. They are as
European as any of us, they are indistinguishable from us, and their
offspring could intermarry with ours and our future generations would
continue as ever, their destiny undimmed. And all of this would remain
true no matter what papers they had or didn’t have in their wallets.
It would remain true even if these engineers and piano virtuosi came
here illegally. What really matters isn’t laws or papers or even
geography. It’s race. It’s genes. And we can never have sane laws or
sane immigration policies until we understand that fact.
The anti-immigration “conservatives” on Fox News are always screaming
about how they’re “not racists” and how “it’s not about race, it’s
about obeying the law.” Well, if it’s about “the law,” what are they
going to say when Congress simply legalizes every illegal immigrant?
They won’t be able to say a thing. The conservatives are simply wrong.
In fact, they’re more than wrong — they’re lying. It is about race.
End quote

"Here's what the infamous Kevin Strom, recently
discussed here on A.R.E. (without objection to
his views from anyone except me, so I figure it's
acceptable to post his comments on this thread)
had to say about Klemp's concerns:

"Immigration: Not About Race?

http://www.kevinalfredstrom.com/2009/05/immigration-and-race/#more-858

by Kevin Alfred Strom"

Tianyue,

I saw only one post by Kevin Strom on A.R.E.
recently. [July 4th, 11:23pm]

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/9599bfeeee0a227/a542cbd8c5751e65?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=Kevin+strom#a542cbd8c5751e65

You wrote ""Here's what the infamous Kevin Strom,
recently discussed here on A.R.E. (without objection
to his views from anyone except me ...."

Tianyue. Can you show me where Kevin Strom dis-
cussed that (what you claimed) recently on A.R.E.?

Etznab

[TianYue]

Post by Etznab

Post by TianYue

Post by Sharon
Hey Doug -
I never did get an answer to a question I asked you several times
years back.   Here's part of it copied from an old post, and is it
just me, or are Google searches not as good as they should be?
************************
Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
      "I'm moving it for several reasons.  In the past there have been
a
      number of psychic forces hovering around the site.  We've also
had
      to consider the political situation in South America which is
going
      to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
      southwestern United States."   Klemp, "Be The Hu"  (special
cultbook
      for 2nd initiates & higher only, taken from Klemp's seminar
talks
      to HIs)
However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
Harold's,
says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
site
because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
they
were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
So...you just wonder!!   Also, there's the little matter of the temple
site
land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member.  She'd
bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
her
death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.
Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
them
about this whole matter.   "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
the
Latino invasion:   An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
population
cites census figures.  The Latino population has doubled in the past
ten
years.   California has negative latino growth. And guess what!   The
state
with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
its
second initiation?  Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
reminds them of home?  Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
shining
light of the cult's "temple"?   Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money
good
enough?
<giggle>
Hugs,
Sharon
************************************
So, Doug, the above is old, before all the info about the court battle
over Helen Frye's land & will got on the internet.   And, since this I
also found that blurb from "Be The Hu" published in other eckbooks
without that 2nd initiate restriction.
Why did Klemp tell you one thing about moving the temple site, but say
something entirely different to members, who I daresay were just as
innocent & ignorant as I was at the time, and totally clueless about
all the cult's dirt.  I believed The Word Of The Living Eck Master,
the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate an answer, just for the record.  Even though I think
it's quite obvious - Klemp was lying and trying to cover up the dirt,
and just dishing out more ridiculous nonsense to all the card-carrying
mushrooms.   Geez, he could've just said he was moving from AZ to MN
because Suggie told him too!!
SHARON

You're obviously right, the whole Helen Frye ordeal was likely a big
part of the reason for moving.
But you know, since Klemp published his Latino concerns in "Be the
Hu", which means the comment was deemed worthy enough to survive
editing by his paid staff, please don't ask Doug to question his word.
That's unfair of you. While its fine to question things that are
obviously proven and factual (like other good, self respecting, anti-
science fundamentalists), why doubt Klemp? He obviously feared the
area would become overrun with Hispanics, among other problems.
And it's true that in the small towns of the part of the Midwest Klemp
hails from, some folks have never seen a person of color. But as
you've pointed out, all that is changing now, as Hispanics have moved
in to take jobs that Norte Americanos just don't want, such as jobs in
meat packing plants.  Entire communities are in an uproar, passing
English only laws quicker than you can say "ay, caramba!"
Well, Klemp is not alone in his concerns. Kevin Strom, the noted
defender of European racial stock, is against the intrusions of our
Latin American brothers, as well. He wouldn't mind them coming if they
were white, but the non-whites need not apply, as far as he's
concerned. Here's what the infamous Kevin Strom, recently discussed
here on A.R.E. (without objection to his views from anyone except me,
so I figure it's acceptable to post his comments on this thread) had
Immigration: Not About Race?
http://www.kevinalfredstrom.com/2009/05/immigration-and-race/#more-858
by Kevin Alfred Strom
WHILE I WAS in a restaurant the other day with a few friends and their
children, I saw another group enter the establishment and take a table
nearby. It was a handsome-looking White family, a father and mother
with a teenage son and daughter. I was close enough to hear parts of
their conversation.
The father was almost a double for a writer I know personally, a
rugged-looking brunet of medium height with piercing eyes and ruddy
complexion, about 50, with a tall, fine-haired slender blonde wife
perhaps ten or twelve years younger. The children were well-behaved,
good-looking, and intermediate in appearance to their parents, to whom
they bore an obvious family resemblance. They weren’t speaking
English.
Where were they from? I wondered. Listening a little more closely, I
realized they were speaking Spanish. As we left the restaurant, one of
the young children in my party decided to try her schoolgirl Spanish
on the lady of the family at the other table. The wife was delighted
to be greeted in her native tongue and spoke a bit in Spanish with the
little girl in our group, then switched to flawless and almost
unaccented English to talk to the rest of us. Her husband was a
mechanical engineer working on a project in this country, and she was
an accomplished pianist and music instructor. Both spoke three
languages, French being the third.
I eventually asked where they hailed from. The answer was Mexico,
where they were born and where they had lived almost all their lives.
They were Mexicans. They were Mexicans of entirely European descent.
They were Hispanics. And in those facts there are two lessons.
The first lesson is that using the term “Hispanic” for the Mestizos
who are crossing our southern marches is inappropriate. The term
Hispanic, strictly speaking, should be used only to refer to people of
Iberian descent — like this family. Even as it is it misused today,
the word “Hispanic” is racially ambiguous. It can refer to a Spanish-
speaking Black — or a totally European person from Spain or from the
substantial Spanish-speaking White populations of Latin America. We
should prefer racial terms when we’re talking about race. That’s why
we should, like Latin Americans themselves, say “Mestizo” when
referring to those of mixed European and Amerindian descent, and
“Amerindian” or, better yet, a proper tribal or national name when
referring to Amerindians. (Often, except when it causes
misunderstandings, it’s good to call people what they call themselves.
It might be a good thing if the Nation of Aztlan nationalists forged a
new name for their people, replacing the broad-brush words “Hispanic”
or “Mexican” that have almost no biological meaning. “American,” by
the way, is rapidly becoming meaningless too.) Race is what matters.
And that brings us to the second lesson illustrated by my restaurant
encounter.
The accomplished and cultured White family from Mexico I met is no
more likely than I am to join MS-13 or chop someone’s head off with a
machete. This family is not a threat to our culture — in fact, it
would not surprise me if they were more imbued with Western culture
than 95 per cent. of Americans and Europeans. And this family, most
important of all, is not a threat to our gene pool. They are as
European as any of us, they are indistinguishable from us, and their
offspring could intermarry with ours and our future generations would
continue as ever, their destiny undimmed. And all of this would remain
true no matter what papers they had or didn’t have in their wallets.
It would remain true even if these engineers and piano virtuosi came
here illegally. What really matters isn’t laws or papers or even
geography. It’s race. It’s genes. And we can never have sane laws or
sane immigration policies until we understand that fact.
The anti-immigration “conservatives” on Fox News are always screaming
about how they’re “not racists” and how “it’s not about race, it’s
about obeying the law.” Well, if it’s about “the law,” what are they
going to say when Congress simply legalizes every illegal immigrant?
They won’t be able to say a thing. The conservatives are simply wrong.
In fact, they’re more than wrong — they’re lying. It is about race.
End quote

"Here's what the infamous Kevin Strom, recently
discussed here on A.R.E. (without objection to
his views from anyone except me, so I figure it's
acceptable to post his comments on this thread)
"Immigration: Not About Race?
http://www.kevinalfredstrom.com/2009/05/immigration-and-race/#more-858
by Kevin Alfred Strom"
Tianyue,
   I saw only one post by Kevin Strom on A.R.E.
recently. [July 4th, 11:23pm]
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/th...
   You wrote ""Here's what the infamous Kevin Strom,
recently discussed here on A.R.E. (without objection
to his views from anyone except me ...."
   Tianyue. Can you show me where Kevin Strom dis-
cussed that (what you claimed) recently on A.R.E.?
Etznab

Heh. I should have written, "Here's what the infamous Kevin Strom, WHO
was recently discussed here on A.R.E., had to say about Klemp's
concerns."

I can see why you misunderstood. I hope this clarifies my meaning.

Tianyue

[South Dakota Pete]

On Jul 8, 7:33 pm, Sharon wrote:
Hey Doug -
I believed The Word Of The Living Eck Master, the Mahanta.
I'd appreciate .....
Sharon

Hey baby, I ain't Doug,

but if you want answers,
Breeethe! Breethe for me...
and breethe for you....

Get some blooood to the...
braaain, honey & breeethe....

...keep ya frum turnin blu....because all you do is
...make up...and break up...
and when you wake up...
you say.......love hurts...

time and time again....

Oy vey!

Sowd da Kota Pete