Spiros Bousbouras
2018-05-21 14:41:30 UTC
[Since this is out of topic for comp.lang.c I'm crossposting and setting
follow-ups to comp.misc .]
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 11:43:28 -0000 (UTC)
Perhaps this is true for some people but not for others. I have seen
examples of people who used to access usenet using newsreaders and have
moved to other online venues (not necessarily stackoverflow). Some
alternative reasons I can think of are the following :
1. Subjective preference. There are all kinds of little details regarding
the user interface of usenet vs message boards vs blogs vs stackoverflow
vs ycombinator.com vs whatever. Some people just like one over the
other.
2. Moderation. I said in a previous post that on an unmoderated newsgroup and
if one uses a newsreader "everyone can act as moderator for what they
themselves read but for noone else". This seems ideal to me but from what
I've seen from other people , not everyone feels this way. In particular I
have witnessed repeatedly the phenomenon of people who use a newsreader and
state that they are annoyed with the output of some other poster and they
consider it of low quality yet they don't killfile that poster but instead
continue to reply and express annoyance and it goes like this indefinitely.
For example a while ago someone abandoned comp.lang.fortran because they no
longer liked the overall tone of the discussion instead of just killfiling
some people. (If you want to explore this example further see
Newsgroups: comp.lang.fortran
Subject: Re: I Miss Richard Maine
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 20:27:01 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <opmlql$g5e$***@newsreader4.netcologne.de>
as a starting point) I don't know why some people are so reluctant to use the
killfiles they have access to but given that they are like this , having
someone else do the "dirty" job of moderation presumably suits them better.
3. With sites like stackoverflow which allow upvoting and downvoting of posts
, there is the factor of emotional gratification. Person A gets annoyed with
some post , they can immediately (anonymously) downvote it ; click on a
button and bang , instant emotional gratification. With usenet you don't have
that. If person A were to simply write a short reply saying "Rubbish" then
that makes themselves look bad as lacking of arguments or at least not making
the effort to write an argument as to why they thought the post they were
replying to was rubbish. If they bother to write a more detailed reply then
it's no longer instant emotional gratification and it takes more time too.
Another aspect of emotional gratification is that on usenet there is no
objective measure of who are the "best" posters whereas with a place like
stackoverflow where there is voting , people get the satisfaction of getting
a large number of positive votes and have this to aim for.
[But I should mention a counterexample to this hypothesis :
http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1558
OK, in the first significant use of comment voting, the readers have
voted overwhelmingly, by 41 - 13, that they want the comment voting to
disappear. So disappear it has!
]
4. Network effect. Once something becomes popular , then more people learn
about it. Spolsky already had a popular blog when he started stackoverflow
so naturally a lot of people tried out stackoverflow when he started it.
5. Specialised functionality (if the kind of discussion which takes place has
a use for it). The one example I've seen of this (although there may be
others) is where the topic of discussion involves a lot of mathematics. There
is special notation to include Latex notation (which is just ordinary ASCII)
in an online post and the forum software will display the corresponding
mathematical notation (I don't know if the mathematical notation can be
quoted the same way normal text can). The analogous on usenet would be to
have a special header field which would indicate that the text of the post is
Latex source or contains Latex source and newsreaders which understand this
field would automatically invoke the Latex application on the body of the
post and display the output instead of the original post. This is doable but
someone would need to define a kind of (unofficial) standard about the header
field and enhance at least one newsreader to support the additional
functionality.
I think stackoverflow does support such a notation. But there is a counterexample
here too : the foundations Of mathematics mailing list :
cs.nyu.edu/mailman/listinfo/fom :
FOM postings must consist of single-spaced, plain text and
have an informative subject line in the e-mail header.
The list has been going on for many years and has managed with plain text
just fine. It isn't usenet but email lists are very close to usenet in
user interface.
So anyway , the above are some alternative reasons I could think of.
possible so best to keep it public. I think it's on topic enough on
comp.misc .
Actually most online discussion places have some kind of netiquette. Unmoderated
usenet is the most loose in this regard since the netiquette is not enforceable
so if anyone actually has problems with netiquette then they would prefer
usenet.
follow-ups to comp.misc .]
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 11:43:28 -0000 (UTC)
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 00:00:43 +0000 (UTC)
The newsgroup languished because it catered only to the few people
that had been there for a decade.
comp.lang.c is less busy than it used to be but is doing fine. It's
interesting to ponder on why Usenet has been overcome in popularity by
sites like stackoverflow .I have some ideas but since this post is
already long and it would be out of topic , I will refrain.
Like what? I always just figured it was "the masses didn't get it".https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2018/04/23/strange-and-maddening-rules/
It's about a lot of things, but it does mention this newsgroup (and only
this one) by name. Makes note of the strange culture of the group.
[...]It's about a lot of things, but it does mention this newsgroup (and only
this one) by name. Makes note of the strange culture of the group.
The newsgroup languished because it catered only to the few people
that had been there for a decade.
comp.lang.c is less busy than it used to be but is doing fine. It's
interesting to ponder on why Usenet has been overcome in popularity by
sites like stackoverflow .I have some ideas but since this post is
already long and it would be out of topic , I will refrain.
examples of people who used to access usenet using newsreaders and have
moved to other online venues (not necessarily stackoverflow). Some
alternative reasons I can think of are the following :
1. Subjective preference. There are all kinds of little details regarding
the user interface of usenet vs message boards vs blogs vs stackoverflow
vs ycombinator.com vs whatever. Some people just like one over the
other.
2. Moderation. I said in a previous post that on an unmoderated newsgroup and
if one uses a newsreader "everyone can act as moderator for what they
themselves read but for noone else". This seems ideal to me but from what
I've seen from other people , not everyone feels this way. In particular I
have witnessed repeatedly the phenomenon of people who use a newsreader and
state that they are annoyed with the output of some other poster and they
consider it of low quality yet they don't killfile that poster but instead
continue to reply and express annoyance and it goes like this indefinitely.
For example a while ago someone abandoned comp.lang.fortran because they no
longer liked the overall tone of the discussion instead of just killfiling
some people. (If you want to explore this example further see
Newsgroups: comp.lang.fortran
Subject: Re: I Miss Richard Maine
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 20:27:01 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <opmlql$g5e$***@newsreader4.netcologne.de>
as a starting point) I don't know why some people are so reluctant to use the
killfiles they have access to but given that they are like this , having
someone else do the "dirty" job of moderation presumably suits them better.
3. With sites like stackoverflow which allow upvoting and downvoting of posts
, there is the factor of emotional gratification. Person A gets annoyed with
some post , they can immediately (anonymously) downvote it ; click on a
button and bang , instant emotional gratification. With usenet you don't have
that. If person A were to simply write a short reply saying "Rubbish" then
that makes themselves look bad as lacking of arguments or at least not making
the effort to write an argument as to why they thought the post they were
replying to was rubbish. If they bother to write a more detailed reply then
it's no longer instant emotional gratification and it takes more time too.
Another aspect of emotional gratification is that on usenet there is no
objective measure of who are the "best" posters whereas with a place like
stackoverflow where there is voting , people get the satisfaction of getting
a large number of positive votes and have this to aim for.
[But I should mention a counterexample to this hypothesis :
http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1558
OK, in the first significant use of comment voting, the readers have
voted overwhelmingly, by 41 - 13, that they want the comment voting to
disappear. So disappear it has!
]
4. Network effect. Once something becomes popular , then more people learn
about it. Spolsky already had a popular blog when he started stackoverflow
so naturally a lot of people tried out stackoverflow when he started it.
5. Specialised functionality (if the kind of discussion which takes place has
a use for it). The one example I've seen of this (although there may be
others) is where the topic of discussion involves a lot of mathematics. There
is special notation to include Latex notation (which is just ordinary ASCII)
in an online post and the forum software will display the corresponding
mathematical notation (I don't know if the mathematical notation can be
quoted the same way normal text can). The analogous on usenet would be to
have a special header field which would indicate that the text of the post is
Latex source or contains Latex source and newsreaders which understand this
field would automatically invoke the Latex application on the body of the
post and display the output instead of the original post. This is doable but
someone would need to define a kind of (unofficial) standard about the header
field and enhance at least one newsreader to support the additional
functionality.
I think stackoverflow does support such a notation. But there is a counterexample
here too : the foundations Of mathematics mailing list :
cs.nyu.edu/mailman/listinfo/fom :
FOM postings must consist of single-spaced, plain text and
have an informative subject line in the e-mail header.
The list has been going on for many years and has managed with plain text
just fine. It isn't usenet but email lists are very close to usenet in
user interface.
So anyway , the above are some alternative reasons I could think of.
Although, maybe best to take this off-list?
I think it's good for this kind of discussion to have as wide an input aspossible so best to keep it public. I think it's on topic enough on
comp.misc .
To novices, the long bureaucratic rigmarole associated with asking
your first question on Stack Overflow can feel either completely
unnecessary, or just plain weird.
So there is actually a bureaucratic process to ask your first question
on stackoverflow ? Well , then perhaps people should give usenet , and
comp.lang.c in particular a try where there isn't one.
Maybe "basic netiquitte" is too hard for people?your first question on Stack Overflow can feel either completely
unnecessary, or just plain weird.
So there is actually a bureaucratic process to ask your first question
on stackoverflow ? Well , then perhaps people should give usenet , and
comp.lang.c in particular a try where there isn't one.
usenet is the most loose in this regard since the netiquette is not enforceable
so if anyone actually has problems with netiquette then they would prefer
usenet.
--
The ultimate goal of mathematics is to eliminate any need for intelligent thought.
Alfred N. Whitehead
The ultimate goal of mathematics is to eliminate any need for intelligent thought.
Alfred N. Whitehead