Austerity Street: middle-class town Orpington makes do with 12 charity shops

Post by and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Austerity Street: middle-class town Orpington makes do
with 12 charity shops
Austerity is hitting the high streets of the most
prosperous towns after a sharp rise in the number of
charity shops fuelled by smaller shops going bust.

sane people call it 'recycling'

Post by and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10178617/Austerity-Street-middle-class-town-Orpington-makes-do-with-12-charity-shops.html
Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.jai-maharaj

yttiw

2013-07-16 10:14:31 UTC

sane people call it 'recycling'

Presumably, the snobby Telegraph's idea of being middle class is that
one never buys second hand items.

How quaint.

abelard

2013-07-16 10:20:46 UTC

Post by yttiw

sane people call it 'recycling'

Presumably, the snobby Telegraph's idea of being middle class is that
one never buys second hand items.
How quaint.

quaint well describes the smellygraph

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Bay-Area-Collector-to-Auction-Off-Wizard-of-Oz-Dress-215556551.html
"Actress Debbie Reynolds owned another version of the dress that was
also used during the movie's first two weeks of filming. That dress
was auctioned off in 2011 for $910,000.

Filmmaker George Cukor briefly worked on the movie and revamped
Dorothy's dress and styled Garland's brunette hair in pigtails to
better portray a young girl from Kansas.

In the final version of the 1939 film under director Victor Fleming,
Garland wore the now-iconic blue gingham dress with a white
puff-sleeved blouse. The on-screen garment was auctioned off Profiles
in History in 2011 for $230,000."

Bill

2013-07-16 11:03:09 UTC

Post by yttiw
Presumably, the snobby Telegraph's idea of being middle class is that
one never buys second hand items.

Except, of course, books and paintings and furniture and anything
marked as 'antique'.

yttiw

2013-07-16 11:29:52 UTC

Post by yttiw
Presumably, the snobby Telegraph's idea of being middle class is that
one never buys second hand items.

Except, of course, books and paintings and furniture and anything
marked as 'antique'.

Ah yes, but the buyers will see themselves as collectors, and their
purchases as investments.

Bill

2013-07-16 12:07:11 UTC

Post by yttiw

Post by yttiw
Presumably, the snobby Telegraph's idea of being middle class is that
one never buys second hand items.

Except, of course, books and paintings and furniture and anything
marked as 'antique'.

Ah yes, but the buyers will see themselves as collectors, and their
purchases as investments.

As a general rule they don't.

People who buy old books read them and people who buy old furniture
use it and people who buy old paintings hang them on their walls.

And, with one or two exceptional exceptions, anyone who bought a
painting painted in the past thirty years who expected to make money
on it has a nasty shock coming...

yttiw

2013-07-18 20:54:34 UTC

Post by yttiw
Presumably, the snobby Telegraph's idea of being middle class is that
one never buys second hand items.

Except, of course, books and paintings and furniture and anything
marked as 'antique'.

Ah yes, but the buyers will see themselves as collectors, and their
purchases as investments.

As a general rule they don't.
People who buy old books read them and people who buy old furniture
use it and people who buy old paintings hang them on their walls.

You must know the entire adult population of the UK personally in order
to be able to make such a statement.

Post by Bill
And, with one or two exceptional exceptions, anyone who bought a
painting painted in the past thirty years who expected to make money
on it has a nasty shock coming...

Maybe for you, but I was thinking more of antiques.

Presumably one of your exceptional exceptions included these people?

http://www.theartnewspaper.com/articles/Eyebrow-raising-price-hikes-for-Polish-artists/26652

Bill

2013-07-18 21:33:59 UTC

Post by yttiw
Presumably, the snobby Telegraph's idea of being middle class is that
one never buys second hand items.

Except, of course, books and paintings and furniture and anything
marked as 'antique'.

Ah yes, but the buyers will see themselves as collectors, and their
purchases as investments.

As a general rule they don't.
People who buy old books read them and people who buy old furniture
use it and people who buy old paintings hang them on their walls.

You must know the entire adult population of the UK personally in order
to be able to make such a statement.

I know enough of them to make a case.

Post by yttiw

Post by Bill
And, with one or two exceptional exceptions, anyone who bought a
painting painted in the past thirty years who expected to make money
on it has a nasty shock coming...

Maybe for you, but I was thinking more of antiques.
Presumably one of your exceptional exceptions included these people?
http://www.theartnewspaper.com/articles/Eyebrow-raising-price-hikes-for-Polish-artists/26652

Even they say it's 'eyebrow raising'.

Chances are that it's actually some form of money laundering.

The art and antiques world is about as bent as it gets for businesses
that are allowed to operate in retail premises.

It's considered quite legitimate to make fakes for resale without
modern marks.

JNugent

2013-07-16 13:40:10 UTC

Post by yttiw
Presumably, the snobby Telegraph's idea of being middle class is that
one never buys second hand items.

Except, of course, books and paintings and furniture and anything
marked as 'antique'.

There is also the uniquely middle- and upper-class concept of the dress
agency.

I sometimes see a current TV ad which mentions a "vintage dress", which
I assume means a secondhand article from an identifiably past period.

Bill

2013-07-16 14:02:36 UTC

Post by JNugent

Post by yttiw
Presumably, the snobby Telegraph's idea of being middle class is that
one never buys second hand items.

Except, of course, books and paintings and furniture and anything
marked as 'antique'.

There is also the uniquely middle- and upper-class concept of the dress
agency.
I sometimes see a current TV ad which mentions a "vintage dress", which
I assume means a secondhand article from an identifiably past period.

Very few pieces of clothing of reasonable quality are from an
unidentifiable past period.

Even Levi jeans can be dated with some accuracy...

Martin Brown

2013-07-19 08:22:56 UTC

sane people call it 'recycling'

DO the sums. The charity makes almost no profit for itself after they
have paid the landlords rent for use of the shop. The only way they can
operate is because volunteers are suckered into working for nothing.

I will grant you that they do look marginally better than high streets
with lots of boarded up shop windows as has happened further north.

Our town council is working the same scam to destaff public libraries by
conning do-gooders into babysitting the building for no pay at all.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

abelard

2013-07-20 09:07:12 UTC

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 09:22:56 +0100, Martin Brown

Post by Martin Brown

sane people call it 'recycling'

DO the sums. The charity makes almost no profit for itself after they
have paid the landlords rent for use of the shop. The only way they can
operate is because volunteers are suckered into working for nothing.
I will grant you that they do look marginally better than high streets
with lots of boarded up shop windows as has happened further north.
Our town council is working the same scam to destaff public libraries by
conning do-gooders into babysitting the building for no pay at all.

all rational responses to a changing world...

why not let people of good will staff local libraries...they are not
'working for nothing'...they are working to better the world and
their communities...
often subsidised by the taxes on production...

steadily we will have to move towards a citizen's wage....

iain banks put it well...a society with money is a poor society..

and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj)

2013-07-17 18:33:53 UTC

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10178617/Austerity-Street-middle-class-town-Orpington-makes-do-with-12-charity-shops.html

View map here:

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Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.jai-maharaj

Phi

2013-07-17 19:09:58 UTC

Post by and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10178617/Austerity-Street-middle-class-town-Orpington-makes-do-with-12-charity-shops.html
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02617/Orpington-Charity-_2617393a.jpg
Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.jai-maharaj

Every ten years since 1940 there has been a recession or monetary crisis,
where the ordinary man has had to tighten his belt because of government
mismanagement. Why do we put up with these oiks time and time again ?
All the highly paid economists pay lip service to maintaining a steady
economy, but there seems to be a deliberate policy of creating unecessary
fiscal problems.

Martin Brown

2013-07-19 08:46:03 UTC

Post by Phi

Not quite. It is roughly every 80+/-10 years that the merchant bankers
totally screw the world economy to the point where wages cannot be paid.
The last really bad one was the Great Depression of 1929 and before that
there was a big one that crippled the world economy around the 1850's
complete with a stroppy open letter from the then governor of the bank
of England complaining of bankers bad behaviour. ISTR it was caused by
risky new clever paper trades (sound familiar?).

There was another earlier big one around 1825-6 that went global and saw
the Bank of England go cap in hand to France to borrow gold!

Nice list is online:
http://wintonbury.com/downloads/Financial%20Panics%20List%202011.pdf

Post by Phi
All the highly paid economists pay lip service to maintaining a steady
economy, but there seems to be a deliberate policy of creating
unecessary fiscal problems.

Not sure that economists deserve to be paid at all.
It isn't called the "dismal science" for nothing.

In no other field of intellectual study do you have Nobel prize winners
prostituting their academic credentials to make money using dubious
tactics via the woefully misnamed Long Term Capital Management which
then went bust. Interesting footnote is that if they had deeper pockets
or access to even more funds they might just have got away with it.

Modern finance has become a zero sum game (actually a less than zero sum
game as quite often now legitimate businesses are damaged just to make
short term profits for the city and bonuses for their bankers).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

JNugent

2013-07-17 19:13:18 UTC

Post by and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj)

The purpose of charity shops is to raise money for charity.

You'll always be able to raise more money where there is more money to
start with.

Tired

2013-07-17 20:26:53 UTC

***@mantra.com and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:
:: Austerity Street: middle-class town Orpington makes do
:: with 12 charity shops
::
:: Austerity is hitting the high streets of the most
:: prosperous towns after a sharp rise in the number of
:: charity shops fuelled by smaller shops going bust.

Why would the government slowing down the increases in public spending cause
this? What piffle.

abelard

2013-07-18 10:36:00 UTC

Post by Tired
:: Austerity Street: middle-class town Orpington makes do
:: with 12 charity shops
:: Austerity is hitting the high streets of the most
:: prosperous towns after a sharp rise in the number of
:: charity shops fuelled by smaller shops going bust.
Why would the government slowing down the increases in public spending cause
this? What piffle.

more likely no commercial operation can afford the socialist taxes and
rents on the shops

Cynic

2013-07-18 12:47:57 UTC

Post by Tired
:: Austerity is hitting the high streets of the most
:: prosperous towns after a sharp rise in the number of
:: charity shops fuelled by smaller shops going bust.
Why would the government slowing down the increases in public spending cause
this? What piffle.

Because there are a lot of manufacturers and other businesses that
rely on government contracts. Even when the business in question does
not have a high-street presence, it has a knock-on effect in several
ways.

Take a small cafe on the high street of a small town as an example. A
major employer in the town is an industrial metalworking company. The
government cuts down on what it gives to Local Authorities and the
council decides to postpone erecting the lamp-posts it had planned to
put up, and leave all the weather-worn road signs as they are for
another couple of years instead of replacing them. The council also
increases its business rates to make up the shortfall.

The metalwork company would have been contracted to make many of the
component parts for lamp-posts and road signs, and its business falls
off. It makes half its employees redundant. Those employees can no
longer afford their regular coffees and meals at the cafe, so the
tables become empty, and the loss of customers in combination withthe
increase in rates pushes the cafe owner's books into the red, so he
closes the cafe.

--
Cynic

Andy Walker

2013-07-18 18:58:55 UTC

Post by Cynic
Take a small cafe on the high street of a small town as an example.
[...] The council also
increases its business rates to make up the shortfall.

A small cafe in a small town is likely to be a small business
[rateable value < £18K], and qualify for some form of rate relief --
currently 100% if the RV is < £6K. Ie, many small high-street shops
[inc cafes] will currently pay *no business rates at all*, esp if the
proprietor has only the one business. Both the RV and the multiplier
[which converts RVs into the actual rates] are set nationally, not
by "the council".

--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.

Cynic

2013-07-19 13:33:14 UTC

Post by Andy Walker

Post by Cynic
Take a small cafe on the high street of a small town as an example.
[...] The council also
increases its business rates to make up the shortfall.

I bow to your superior knowlege regarding exactly who sets the rates,
but it makes no difference to the argument. The Local Authority
collects the business rates and keeps a proportion of it, and so even
if they do not actually set the amount themselves, they will almost
certainly have a strong input to the government department that does
set the rates.

--
Cynic

Andy Walker

2013-07-19 19:31:03 UTC

Post by Cynic
I bow to your superior knowlege regarding exactly who sets the rates,
but it makes no difference to the argument. The Local Authority
collects the business rates and keeps a proportion of it, [...].

Perhaps you missed the bit where the business rates for small
shops [inc cafes] in a small town are likely currently to be *zero*?
I expect this will not apply to prosperous towns in the SE, but it
certainly applies to small towns around here. Even where the rates
are not zero [medium or large shops and chains], there are often
special grants, esp in the sort of depressed area you were talking
about.

In the end, a lot depends on the enterprise of LAs and small
shop keepers. They can't compete with the supermarkets in supplying
standard food, clothing, TVs, etc., but they can offer better service
and they can fill specialised niches. There are success stories in
some of the most depressed and depressing places around here.

--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.

Tired

2013-07-21 00:16:36 UTC

Cynic wrote:
:: On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 19:58:55 +0100, Andy Walker <***@cuboid.co.uk>
:: wrote:
::
::: On 18/07/13 13:47, Cynic wrote:
:::: Take a small cafe on the high street of a small town as an example.
:::: [...] The council also
:::: increases its business rates to make up the shortfall.
:::
::: A small cafe in a small town is likely to be a small business
::: [rateable value < £18K], and qualify for some form of rate relief --
::: currently 100% if the RV is < £6K. Ie, many small high-street shops
::: [inc cafes] will currently pay *no business rates at all*, esp if
::: the proprietor has only the one business. Both the RV and the
::: multiplier [which converts RVs into the actual rates] are set
::: nationally, not by "the council".
::
:: I bow to your superior knowlege regarding exactly who sets the rates,
:: but it makes no difference to the argument. The Local Authority
:: collects the business rates and keeps a proportion of it, and so even
:: if they do not actually set the amount themselves, they will almost
:: certainly have a strong input to the government department that does
:: set the rates.

Wrong again. The local authority do not keep a proportion. They collect, it
all goes to the government, and then the government distribute it back based
on a formula they define as need. It bares no relationship to what is
collected by individual councils.

:: --
:: Cynic

Cynic

2013-07-22 17:16:54 UTC

Post by Tired
:: I bow to your superior knowlege regarding exactly who sets the rates,
:: but it makes no difference to the argument. The Local Authority
:: collects the business rates and keeps a proportion of it, and so even
:: if they do not actually set the amount themselves, they will almost
:: certainly have a strong input to the government department that does
:: set the rates.
Wrong again. The local authority do not keep a proportion. They collect, it
all goes to the government, and then the government distribute it back based
on a formula they define as need. It bares no relationship to what is
collected by individual councils.

Apparently that changed in April

http://www.stroud.gov.uk/info/Stroud%20NNDR%20Leaflet.pdf

"
What are business rates?
Non-Domestic Rates, or business rates, collected by local authorities
are the way that those who occupy non-domestic property
contribute towards the cost of local services. Under the business
rates retention arrangements introduced from 1 April 2013, authorities
keep a proportion of the business rates paid locally.
"

--
Cynic

Tired

2013-07-23 16:54:07 UTC

Cynic wrote:
:: On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 01:16:36 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com> wrote:
::
::::: I bow to your superior knowlege regarding exactly who sets the
::::: rates, but it makes no difference to the argument. The Local
::::: Authority collects the business rates and keeps a proportion of
::::: it, and so even if they do not actually set the amount
::::: themselves, they will almost certainly have a strong input to the
::::: government department that does set the rates.
:::
::: Wrong again. The local authority do not keep a proportion. They
::: collect, it all goes to the government, and then the government
::: distribute it back based on a formula they define as need. It bares
::: no relationship to what is collected by individual councils.
::
:: Apparently that changed in April
::
:: http://www.stroud.gov.uk/info/Stroud%20NNDR%20Leaflet.pdf
::
:: "
:: What are business rates?
:: Non-Domestic Rates, or business rates, collected by local authorities
:: are the way that those who occupy non-domestic property
:: contribute towards the cost of local services. Under the business
:: rates retention arrangements introduced from 1 April 2013,
:: authorities keep a proportion of the business rates paid locally.
:: "
::
:: --
:: Cynic

I made reference earlier on, they only ratain any new business rates that
come about as a result of growth, from april 2013.

Tired

2013-07-18 22:10:35 UTC

Cynic wrote:
:: On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 21:26:53 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com> wrote:
::
::::: Austerity is hitting the high streets of the most
::::: prosperous towns after a sharp rise in the number of
::::: charity shops fuelled by smaller shops going bust.
::
::: Why would the government slowing down the increases in public
::: spending cause this? What piffle.
::
:: Because there are a lot of manufacturers and other businesses that
:: rely on government contracts. Even when the business in question
:: does not have a high-street presence, it has a knock-on effect in
:: several ways.

Public spending has never been higher. How did they cope six years ago when
public spending was 5% less of gdp?

:: The
:: council also increases its business rates to make up the shortfall.
::

LOL.

Tell me which council has increased business rates.

AlanG

2013-07-19 06:40:49 UTC

Post by Tired
::::: Austerity is hitting the high streets of the most
::::: prosperous towns after a sharp rise in the number of
::::: charity shops fuelled by smaller shops going bust.
::: Why would the government slowing down the increases in public
::: spending cause this? What piffle.
:: Because there are a lot of manufacturers and other businesses that
:: rely on government contracts. Even when the business in question
:: does not have a high-street presence, it has a knock-on effect in
:: several ways.
Public spending has never been higher. How did they cope six years ago when
public spending was 5% less of gdp?
:: The
:: council also increases its business rates to make up the shortfall.
LOL.
Tell me which council has increased business rates.

Any implementing a business improvement district.

JNugent

2013-07-19 07:48:06 UTC

Post by AlanG

Any implementing a business improvement district.

Do local authorities - whether "implementing a business improvement
district" or not - actually *set* business rates?

The whole point of the setting up of the unified business rate was to
remove that discretion (which was being abused by some local authorities
- particularly the thankfully-late and unlamented Greater London
Council) from local politicians and LA officers.

Tired

2013-07-21 00:19:32 UTC

JNugent wrote:
:: On 19/07/2013 07:40, AlanG wrote:
::: On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 23:10:35 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com> wrote:
:::
:::: Cynic wrote:
:::::: On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 21:26:53 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com> wrote:
::::::
::::::::: Austerity is hitting the high streets of the most
::::::::: prosperous towns after a sharp rise in the number of
::::::::: charity shops fuelled by smaller shops going bust.
::::::
::::::: Why would the government slowing down the increases in public
::::::: spending cause this? What piffle.
::::::
:::::: Because there are a lot of manufacturers and other businesses
:::::: that rely on government contracts. Even when the business in
:::::: question does not have a high-street presence, it has a knock-on
:::::: effect in several ways.
::::
:::: Public spending has never been higher. How did they cope six years
:::: ago when public spending was 5% less of gdp?
::::
::::
:::::: The
:::::: council also increases its business rates to make up the
:::::: shortfall.
::::::
::::
:::: LOL.
::::
:::: Tell me which council has increased business rates.
::::
::: Any implementing a business improvement district.
::
:: Do local authorities - whether "implementing a business improvement
:: district" or not - actually *set* business rates?

No, they dont, but the new localism act gives them the capacity to retain
rates on any new development, thereby incentivising a local authority to be
pro growth.

Tired

2013-07-21 00:18:25 UTC

AlanG wrote:
:: On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 23:10:35 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com> wrote:
::
::: Cynic wrote:
::::: On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 21:26:53 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com> wrote:
:::::
:::::::: Austerity is hitting the high streets of the most
:::::::: prosperous towns after a sharp rise in the number of
:::::::: charity shops fuelled by smaller shops going bust.
:::::
:::::: Why would the government slowing down the increases in public
:::::: spending cause this? What piffle.
:::::
::::: Because there are a lot of manufacturers and other businesses that
::::: rely on government contracts. Even when the business in question
::::: does not have a high-street presence, it has a knock-on effect in
::::: several ways.
:::
::: Public spending has never been higher. How did they cope six years
::: ago when public spending was 5% less of gdp?
:::
:::
::::: The
::::: council also increases its business rates to make up the
::::: shortfall.
:::::
:::
::: LOL.
:::
::: Tell me which council has increased business rates.
:::
:: Any implementing a business improvement district.

A BID is not done by a council, it is done by the retailers. A local council
only hosts it. The decision is made by two votes, of which both require a
majority. 50% of the retailers or more voting for the BID, and 50% of the
floor space of the retail area voting for the BID.

AlanG

2013-07-21 08:17:53 UTC

Post by Tired
:::::::: Austerity is hitting the high streets of the most
:::::::: prosperous towns after a sharp rise in the number of
:::::::: charity shops fuelled by smaller shops going bust.
:::::: Why would the government slowing down the increases in public
:::::: spending cause this? What piffle.
::::: Because there are a lot of manufacturers and other businesses that
::::: rely on government contracts. Even when the business in question
::::: does not have a high-street presence, it has a knock-on effect in
::::: several ways.
::: Public spending has never been higher. How did they cope six years
::: ago when public spending was 5% less of gdp?
::::: The
::::: council also increases its business rates to make up the
::::: shortfall.
::: LOL.
::: Tell me which council has increased business rates.
:: Any implementing a business improvement district.
A BID is not done by a council, it is done by the retailers. A local council
only hosts it. The decision is made by two votes, of which both require a
majority. 50% of the retailers or more voting for the BID, and 50% of the
floor space of the retail area voting for the BID.

The local council runs it. The voting procedure is unfair to the small
struggling business and favours the large chain store. It has been
responsible for the closure of several shops in this town and many in
neighbouring towns where the scheme has been introduced. Locally the
council has sent bailiffs in to small shops to seize goods for non
payment of the BID squeeze. Most of which goes on paying the town hall
staff who run it.

Tired

2013-07-21 09:00:51 UTC

AlanG wrote:
:: On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 01:18:25 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com> wrote:
::
::: AlanG wrote:
::::: On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 23:10:35 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com> wrote:
:::::
:::::: Cynic wrote:
:::::::: On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 21:26:53 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com> wrote:
::::::::
::::::::::: Austerity is hitting the high streets of the most
::::::::::: prosperous towns after a sharp rise in the number of
::::::::::: charity shops fuelled by smaller shops going bust.
::::::::
::::::::: Why would the government slowing down the increases in public
::::::::: spending cause this? What piffle.
::::::::
:::::::: Because there are a lot of manufacturers and other businesses
:::::::: that rely on government contracts. Even when the business in
:::::::: question does not have a high-street presence, it has a
:::::::: knock-on effect in several ways.
::::::
:::::: Public spending has never been higher. How did they cope six
:::::: years ago when public spending was 5% less of gdp?
::::::
::::::
:::::::: The
:::::::: council also increases its business rates to make up the
:::::::: shortfall.
::::::::
::::::
:::::: LOL.
::::::
:::::: Tell me which council has increased business rates.
::::::
::::: Any implementing a business improvement district.
:::
::: A BID is not done by a council, it is done by the retailers. A
::: local council only hosts it. The decision is made by two votes, of
::: which both require a majority. 50% of the retailers or more voting
::: for the BID, and 50% of the floor space of the retail area voting
::: for the BID.
:::
:: The local council runs it. The voting procedure is unfair to the
:: small struggling business and favours the large chain store. It has
:: been responsible for the closure of several shops in this town and
:: many in neighbouring towns where the scheme has been introduced.
:: Locally the council has sent bailiffs in to small shops to seize
:: goods for non payment of the BID squeeze. Most of which goes on
:: paying the town hall staff who run it.

The council will send bailifs in to collect all unpaid rates. It's their
job. And i am sorry you are once again talking out of your arse. It has a
dual voting system to make sure that small businesses are represented. The
BID needs both the majority of square footage support and the majority of
businesses support.

So in one of the votes, the owner of mrs miggins pie shop has exactly the
same power as Marks and spencers.

A business wont be going to the wall due to a 1.5% increase in business
rates. It is up to those who run the BID to determine who it employs. There
is no requirement for that to be local authority staff.

AlanG

2013-07-21 10:35:29 UTC

Post by Tired
::::::::::: Austerity is hitting the high streets of the most
::::::::::: prosperous towns after a sharp rise in the number of
::::::::::: charity shops fuelled by smaller shops going bust.
::::::::: Why would the government slowing down the increases in public
::::::::: spending cause this? What piffle.
:::::::: Because there are a lot of manufacturers and other businesses
:::::::: that rely on government contracts. Even when the business in
:::::::: question does not have a high-street presence, it has a
:::::::: knock-on effect in several ways.
:::::: Public spending has never been higher. How did they cope six
:::::: years ago when public spending was 5% less of gdp?
:::::::: The
:::::::: council also increases its business rates to make up the
:::::::: shortfall.
:::::: LOL.
:::::: Tell me which council has increased business rates.
::::: Any implementing a business improvement district.
::: A BID is not done by a council, it is done by the retailers. A
::: local council only hosts it. The decision is made by two votes, of
::: which both require a majority. 50% of the retailers or more voting
::: for the BID, and 50% of the floor space of the retail area voting
::: for the BID.
:: The local council runs it. The voting procedure is unfair to the
:: small struggling business and favours the large chain store. It has
:: been responsible for the closure of several shops in this town and
:: many in neighbouring towns where the scheme has been introduced.
:: Locally the council has sent bailiffs in to small shops to seize
:: goods for non payment of the BID squeeze. Most of which goes on
:: paying the town hall staff who run it.
The council will send bailifs in to collect all unpaid rates. It's their
job. And i am sorry you are once again talking out of your arse.

It is you who are talking out your arse. You obviously know no small
business owners.

Post by Tired
It has a
dual voting system to make sure that small businesses are represented. The
BID needs both the majority of square footage support and the majority of
businesses support.
So in one of the votes, the owner of mrs miggins pie shop has exactly the
same power as Marks and spencers.

So how does that aid the struggling small business owner who can't
afford the levy yet gets outvoted?

Post by Tired
A business wont be going to the wall due to a 1.5% increase in business

Yes it can

Post by Tired
rates. It is up to those who run the BID to determine who it employs. There
is no requirement for that to be local authority staff.

Then how come they are all employed by the local council?

de Graeme

2013-07-21 11:13:53 UTC

<snip>

Post by AlanG

Post by Tired
rates. It is up to those who run the BID to determine who it employs. There
is no requirement for that to be local authority staff.

Then how come they are all employed by the local council?

That doesn't chime with my experience so in the interests of research I
looked up my local town's BID Business Plan and find that the management
board is made up of: :

7 local business owners
1 manager of the largest shopping "mall" in the town
1 manager of a large and very well known retail chemist
1 member of the town centre managemen compay's staff
1 local councillor
1 senior police officer

If you count the councillor as an "employee" of the local council, that's 1
out of 12. If you don't, it's 0 out of 12.

dG

Tired

2013-07-21 11:24:37 UTC

de Graeme wrote:
:: <snip>
::
:::: rates. It is up to those who run the BID to determine who it
:::: employs. There
:::: is no requirement for that to be local authority staff.
::::
::: Then how come they are all employed by the local council?
::
:: That doesn't chime with my experience so in the interests of
:: research I looked up my local town's BID Business Plan and find that
:: the management board is made up of: :
::
:: 7 local business owners
:: 1 manager of the largest shopping "mall" in the town
:: 1 manager of a large and very well known retail chemist
:: 1 member of the town centre managemen compay's staff
:: 1 local councillor
:: 1 senior police officer
::
:: If you count the councillor as an "employee" of the local council,
:: that's 1 out of 12. If you don't, it's 0 out of 12.
::
:: dG

And that councillor's renumerations will be coming 100% from the council,
not the BID board. I expect this to be the makeup of most of these groups.

AlanG

2013-07-21 11:29:38 UTC

On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 12:13:53 +0100, "de Graeme"

Post by de Graeme
<snip>

Post by AlanG

Post by Tired
rates. It is up to those who run the BID to determine who it employs. There
is no requirement for that to be local authority staff.

Then how come they are all employed by the local council?

That doesn't chime with my experience so in the interests of research I
looked up my local town's BID Business Plan and find that the management
7 local business owners
1 manager of the largest shopping "mall" in the town
1 manager of a large and very well known retail chemist
1 member of the town centre managemen compay's staff
1 local councillor
1 senior police officer
If you count the councillor as an "employee" of the local council, that's 1
out of 12. If you don't, it's 0 out of 12.

Since they are unpaid they don't count.
Ours has a manager paid £26000 year and 4 staff who walk around town
handing out leaflets

Tired

2013-07-21 11:23:33 UTC

AlanG wrote:
:: On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 10:00:51 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com> wrote:
::
::: AlanG wrote:
::::: On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 01:18:25 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com> wrote:
:::::
:::::: AlanG wrote:
:::::::: On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 23:10:35 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com> wrote:
::::::::
::::::::: Cynic wrote:
::::::::::: On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 21:26:53 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com>
::::::::::: wrote:
:::::::::::
:::::::::::::: Austerity is hitting the high streets of the most
:::::::::::::: prosperous towns after a sharp rise in the number of
:::::::::::::: charity shops fuelled by smaller shops going bust.
:::::::::::
:::::::::::: Why would the government slowing down the increases in
:::::::::::: public spending cause this? What piffle.
:::::::::::
::::::::::: Because there are a lot of manufacturers and other
::::::::::: businesses that rely on government contracts. Even when
::::::::::: the business in question does not have a high-street
::::::::::: presence, it has a knock-on effect in several ways.
:::::::::
::::::::: Public spending has never been higher. How did they cope six
::::::::: years ago when public spending was 5% less of gdp?
:::::::::
:::::::::
::::::::::: The
::::::::::: council also increases its business rates to make up the
::::::::::: shortfall.
:::::::::::
:::::::::
::::::::: LOL.
:::::::::
::::::::: Tell me which council has increased business rates.
:::::::::
:::::::: Any implementing a business improvement district.
::::::
:::::: A BID is not done by a council, it is done by the retailers. A
:::::: local council only hosts it. The decision is made by two votes,
:::::: of which both require a majority. 50% of the retailers or more
:::::: voting for the BID, and 50% of the floor space of the retail
:::::: area voting for the BID.
::::::
::::: The local council runs it. The voting procedure is unfair to the
::::: small struggling business and favours the large chain store. It
::::: has been responsible for the closure of several shops in this
::::: town and many in neighbouring towns where the scheme has been
::::: introduced. Locally the council has sent bailiffs in to small
::::: shops to seize goods for non payment of the BID squeeze. Most of
::::: which goes on paying the town hall staff who run it.
:::
::: The council will send bailifs in to collect all unpaid rates. It's
::: their job. And i am sorry you are once again talking out of your
::: arse.
::
:: It is you who are talking out your arse. You obviously know no small
:: business owners.
::
::: It has a
::: dual voting system to make sure that small businesses are
::: represented. The BID needs both the majority of square footage
::: support and the majority of businesses support.
:::
::: So in one of the votes, the owner of mrs miggins pie shop has
::: exactly the same power as Marks and spencers.
::
:: So how does that aid the struggling small business owner who can't
:: afford the levy yet gets outvoted?

That struggling small business will be getting small business rate relief
and paying the square root of sod all in business rates.

::: A business wont be going to the wall due to a 1.5% increase in
::: business
::
:: Yes it can
::
::: rates. It is up to those who run the BID to determine who it
::: employs. There is no requirement for that to be local authority
::: staff.
:::
:: Then how come they are all employed by the local council?

Because the people who run the BID have decided it so.

AlanG

2013-07-21 12:22:22 UTC

Post by Tired
:::::::::::::: Austerity is hitting the high streets of the most
:::::::::::::: prosperous towns after a sharp rise in the number of
:::::::::::::: charity shops fuelled by smaller shops going bust.
:::::::::::: Why would the government slowing down the increases in
:::::::::::: public spending cause this? What piffle.
::::::::::: Because there are a lot of manufacturers and other
::::::::::: businesses that rely on government contracts. Even when
::::::::::: the business in question does not have a high-street
::::::::::: presence, it has a knock-on effect in several ways.
::::::::: Public spending has never been higher. How did they cope six
::::::::: years ago when public spending was 5% less of gdp?
::::::::::: The
::::::::::: council also increases its business rates to make up the
::::::::::: shortfall.
::::::::: LOL.
::::::::: Tell me which council has increased business rates.
:::::::: Any implementing a business improvement district.
:::::: A BID is not done by a council, it is done by the retailers. A
:::::: local council only hosts it. The decision is made by two votes,
:::::: of which both require a majority. 50% of the retailers or more
:::::: voting for the BID, and 50% of the floor space of the retail
:::::: area voting for the BID.
::::: The local council runs it. The voting procedure is unfair to the
::::: small struggling business and favours the large chain store. It
::::: has been responsible for the closure of several shops in this
::::: town and many in neighbouring towns where the scheme has been
::::: introduced. Locally the council has sent bailiffs in to small
::::: shops to seize goods for non payment of the BID squeeze. Most of
::::: which goes on paying the town hall staff who run it.
::: The council will send bailifs in to collect all unpaid rates. It's
::: their job. And i am sorry you are once again talking out of your
::: arse.
:: It is you who are talking out your arse. You obviously know no small
:: business owners.
::: It has a
::: dual voting system to make sure that small businesses are
::: represented. The BID needs both the majority of square footage
::: support and the majority of businesses support.
::: So in one of the votes, the owner of mrs miggins pie shop has
::: exactly the same power as Marks and spencers.
:: So how does that aid the struggling small business owner who can't
:: afford the levy yet gets outvoted?
That struggling small business will be getting small business rate relief
and paying the square root of sod all in business rates.

Not according to the business owners who are complaining

Post by Tired
::: A business wont be going to the wall due to a 1.5% increase in
::: business
:: Yes it can
::: rates. It is up to those who run the BID to determine who it
::: employs. There is no requirement for that to be local authority
::: staff.
:: Then how come they are all employed by the local council?
Because the people who run the BID have decided it so.

What we used to call a protection racket

Tired

2013-07-23 16:56:31 UTC

AlanG wrote:
:: On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 12:23:33 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com> wrote:
::
::: AlanG wrote:
::::: On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 10:00:51 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com> wrote:
:::::
:::::: AlanG wrote:
:::::::: On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 01:18:25 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com> wrote:
::::::::
::::::::: AlanG wrote:
::::::::::: On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 23:10:35 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com>
::::::::::: wrote:
:::::::::::
:::::::::::: Cynic wrote:
:::::::::::::: On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 21:26:53 +0100, "Tired" <***@no.com>
:::::::::::::: wrote:
::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::::: Austerity is hitting the high streets of the most
::::::::::::::::: prosperous towns after a sharp rise in the number of
::::::::::::::::: charity shops fuelled by smaller shops going bust.
::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::: Why would the government slowing down the increases in
::::::::::::::: public spending cause this? What piffle.
::::::::::::::
:::::::::::::: Because there are a lot of manufacturers and other
:::::::::::::: businesses that rely on government contracts. Even when
:::::::::::::: the business in question does not have a high-street
:::::::::::::: presence, it has a knock-on effect in several ways.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: Public spending has never been higher. How did they cope
:::::::::::: six years ago when public spending was 5% less of gdp?
::::::::::::
::::::::::::
:::::::::::::: The
:::::::::::::: council also increases its business rates to make up the
:::::::::::::: shortfall.
::::::::::::::
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: LOL.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: Tell me which council has increased business rates.
::::::::::::
::::::::::: Any implementing a business improvement district.
:::::::::
::::::::: A BID is not done by a council, it is done by the retailers. A
::::::::: local council only hosts it. The decision is made by two
::::::::: votes, of which both require a majority. 50% of the retailers
::::::::: or more voting for the BID, and 50% of the floor space of the
::::::::: retail area voting for the BID.
:::::::::
:::::::: The local council runs it. The voting procedure is unfair to
:::::::: the small struggling business and favours the large chain
:::::::: store. It has been responsible for the closure of several
:::::::: shops in this town and many in neighbouring towns where the
:::::::: scheme has been introduced. Locally the council has sent
:::::::: bailiffs in to small shops to seize goods for non payment of
:::::::: the BID squeeze. Most of which goes on paying the town hall
:::::::: staff who run it.
::::::
:::::: The council will send bailifs in to collect all unpaid rates.
:::::: It's their job. And i am sorry you are once again talking out of
:::::: your arse.
:::::
::::: It is you who are talking out your arse. You obviously know no
::::: small business owners.
:::::
:::::: It has a
:::::: dual voting system to make sure that small businesses are
:::::: represented. The BID needs both the majority of square footage
:::::: support and the majority of businesses support.
::::::
:::::: So in one of the votes, the owner of mrs miggins pie shop has
:::::: exactly the same power as Marks and spencers.
:::::
::::: So how does that aid the struggling small business owner who can't
::::: afford the levy yet gets outvoted?
:::
::: That struggling small business will be getting small business rate
::: relief and paying the square root of sod all in business rates.
::
:: Not according to the business owners who are complaining

It's what business owners do. They complain. It is quite likely they have
between 100% and 50% rate relief.

AlanG

2013-07-23 17:43:12 UTC

Post by Tired
::::::::::::::::: Austerity is hitting the high streets of the most
::::::::::::::::: prosperous towns after a sharp rise in the number of
::::::::::::::::: charity shops fuelled by smaller shops going bust.
::::::::::::::: Why would the government slowing down the increases in
::::::::::::::: public spending cause this? What piffle.
:::::::::::::: Because there are a lot of manufacturers and other
:::::::::::::: businesses that rely on government contracts. Even when
:::::::::::::: the business in question does not have a high-street
:::::::::::::: presence, it has a knock-on effect in several ways.
:::::::::::: Public spending has never been higher. How did they cope
:::::::::::: six years ago when public spending was 5% less of gdp?
:::::::::::::: The
:::::::::::::: council also increases its business rates to make up the
:::::::::::::: shortfall.
:::::::::::: LOL.
:::::::::::: Tell me which council has increased business rates.
::::::::::: Any implementing a business improvement district.
::::::::: A BID is not done by a council, it is done by the retailers. A
::::::::: local council only hosts it. The decision is made by two
::::::::: votes, of which both require a majority. 50% of the retailers
::::::::: or more voting for the BID, and 50% of the floor space of the
::::::::: retail area voting for the BID.
:::::::: The local council runs it. The voting procedure is unfair to
:::::::: the small struggling business and favours the large chain
:::::::: store. It has been responsible for the closure of several
:::::::: shops in this town and many in neighbouring towns where the
:::::::: scheme has been introduced. Locally the council has sent
:::::::: bailiffs in to small shops to seize goods for non payment of
:::::::: the BID squeeze. Most of which goes on paying the town hall
:::::::: staff who run it.
:::::: The council will send bailifs in to collect all unpaid rates.
:::::: It's their job. And i am sorry you are once again talking out of
:::::: your arse.
::::: It is you who are talking out your arse. You obviously know no
::::: small business owners.
:::::: It has a
:::::: dual voting system to make sure that small businesses are
:::::: represented. The BID needs both the majority of square footage
:::::: support and the majority of businesses support.
:::::: So in one of the votes, the owner of mrs miggins pie shop has
:::::: exactly the same power as Marks and spencers.
::::: So how does that aid the struggling small business owner who can't
::::: afford the levy yet gets outvoted?
::: That struggling small business will be getting small business rate
::: relief and paying the square root of sod all in business rates.
:: Not according to the business owners who are complaining
It's what business owners do. They complain. It is quite likely they have
between 100% and 50% rate relief.

"quite likely"
The sort of weasel words a politician uses when he doesn't know shit

Tired

2013-07-24 20:11:23 UTC