Alledged sea peoples Luwian inscription

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain the
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

It hasn't been mentioned on the ANE-2 list, but subject to the caveats in the
article, it's probably legitimate. Though how good a copy could be made 50 years
before the script was deciphered is doubtful, meaning that the material is less
than ideal.

Yes, Luvian was deciphered beginning in the late 1920s, not in the 1950s.

Antonio Marques

2017-10-12 09:30:08 UTC

Thanks, folks. Let's wait for developments!

b***@ihug.co.nz

2017-10-11 20:00:46 UTC

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain the
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

Woudhuizen's name rang a bell. He's been mentioned here occasionally,
not always as a credible authority. Here's something online:
"Etruscan as a colonial Luwian language"
http://www.woudhuizen.nl/fred/etruscan.html

Of course, the inscription may be real and interesting whatever one thinks
about Woudhuizen.

Oddly, just a few days ago I was talking with someone who wrote a thesis
on Luwian. I will see if she has any thoughts on the matter.

Daud Deden

2017-10-11 21:27:23 UTC

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain the
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

Woudhuizen's name rang a bell. He's been mentioned here occasionally,
"Etruscan as a colonial Luwian language"
http://www.woudhuizen.nl/fred/etruscan.html
Of course, the inscription may be real and interesting whatever one thinks
about Woudhuizen.
Oddly, just a few days ago I was talking with someone who wrote a thesis
on Luwian. I will see if she has any thoughts on the matter.

-

Hmm, interesting, Ross. I'd claimed to Carlos L. that Etruscans were a group of Trojans (refugees though, rather than colonists).

I guess this is a coincidence, Ante-Diluvian & Luvian/Luwian?

an·te·di·lu·vi·an belonging to the time before the biblical Flood

DKleinecke

2017-10-11 22:56:29 UTC

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain the
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

-
Hmm, interesting, Ross. I'd claimed to Carlos L. that Etruscans were a group of Trojans (refugees though, rather than colonists).
I guess this is a coincidence, Ante-Diluvian & Luvian/Luwian?
an·te·di·lu·vi·an belonging to the time before the biblical Flood

You ever seen the theory that the Etruscans originated in the
Aegean area and migrated west to Italy? In Toynbee's version
they made a stopover in Sicily and the Romans (and other Latins)
were hangers-on on Sicil origin who follow the Etruscans to
the mainland.

Yeah Arnold Joseph. Somewhere in the twelve volumes.

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-12 03:14:13 UTC

Post by DKleinecke

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain the
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

Hmm, interesting, Ross. I'd claimed to Carlos L. that Etruscans were a
group of Trojans (refugees though, rather than colonists).
I guess this is a coincidence, Ante-Diluvian & Luvian/Luwian?
an·te·di·lu·vi·an belonging to the time before the biblical Flood

You ever seen the theory that the Etruscans originated in the
Aegean area and migrated west to Italy? In Toynbee's version
they made a stopover in Sicily and the Romans (and other Latins)
were hangers-on on Sicil origin who follow the Etruscans to
the mainland.
Yeah Arnold Joseph. Somewhere in the twelve volumes.

There's an inscription from Lemnos that's similar to Etruscan.

Before Ventris's decipherment of Linear B, it was expected to be Etruscan or
something similar, and that's what Toynbee would have known.

BTW only 10 volumes really -- 11 is a wonderful historical atlas, and 12 is
afterthoughts. Linear B would have made it into vol. 12, if anywhere.

Antonio Marques

2017-10-12 09:26:06 UTC

Post by DKleinecke
You ever seen the theory that the Etruscans originated in the
Aegean area and migrated west to Italy?

Here's my cue to yet another plug for a strange blog I've found some years
ago: http://paleoglot.blogspot.com (apparently discontinued)

Even the Minoans get on board!

Tilde

2017-10-14 02:59:50 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
I guess this is a coincidence, Ante-Diluvian & Luvian/Luwian?
an·te·di·lu·vi·an belonging to the time before the biblical Flood

Coincidence.

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/diluvian

Of, relating to, or produced by a flood.

[Late Latin dīluviālis, from Latin dīluvium, flood, from dīluere, to wash
away; see dilute.]

Dingbat

2017-10-14 06:15:40 UTC

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain the
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

-
Hmm, interesting, Ross. I'd claimed to Carlos L. that Etruscans were a group of Trojans (refugees though, rather than colonists).

If they came to Italy as refugees, it doesn't follw that they didn't become
colonists. The Ugaric rulers of Hungary came as refugees.

From memory: A Byzantine king has invited Ugaric speakers to help him beat
his rival. Inviting such foreign powers alarmed the Greeks so much that the
rival made peace and joined forces with the king to drive away the Ugaric
speakers. They fled across the Carpathians into a land they would colonize
and turn into Hungary. That's how Hungary happens to speak a Finno-Ugric
language rather than an Indo-European language.

Post by Daud Deden
I guess this is a coincidence, Ante-Diluvian & Luvian/Luwian?
an·te·di·lu·vi·an belonging to the time before the biblical Flood

Dingbat

2017-10-14 06:25:35 UTC

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain the
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

-
Hmm, interesting, Ross. I'd claimed to Carlos L. that Etruscans were a group of Trojans (refugees though, rather than colonists).

Then, how did they come to speak the Etruscan language which is considered
an isolate, not a dialect of Greek or a dialect of an Anatolian language?

The Trojans were Ionic Greek speakers. They might have had neighbors who
spoke Anatolian languages though. I haven't read anything that says
Etruscan was either a Greek dialect or an Anatolian language.

Post by Daud Deden
I guess this is a coincidence, Ante-Diluvian & Luvian/Luwian?
an·te·di·lu·vi·an belonging to the time before the biblical Flood

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-11-12 16:04:35 UTC

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

-
Hmm, interesting, Ross. I'd claimed to Carlos L. that Etruscans were a group
of Trojans (refugees though, rather than colonists).

Says who? Homer? Names and the only inscription found at the site point
to the native language as being Luwian or some related idiom.

Post by Dingbat
spoke Anatolian languages though. I haven't read anything that says
Etruscan was either a Greek dialect or an Anatolian language.

Post by Daud Deden
I guess this is a coincidence, Ante-Diluvian & Luvian/Luwian?
an·te·di·lu·vi·an belonging to the time before the biblical Flood

Daud Deden

2017-11-13 20:18:30 UTC

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

-
Hmm, interesting, Ross. I'd claimed to Carlos L. that Etruscans were a group
of Trojans (refugees though, rather than colonists).

Says who? Homer? Names and the only inscription found at the site point
to the native language as being Luwian or some related idiom.

That's interesting Yusuf.

Post by Dingbat
spoke Anatolian languages though. I haven't read anything that says
Etruscan was either a Greek dialect or an Anatolian language.

Post by Daud Deden
I guess this is a coincidence, Ante-Diluvian & Luvian/Luwian?
an·te·di·lu·vi·an belonging to the time before the biblical Flood

Dingbat

2017-11-15 17:09:29 UTC

Post by Dingbat
The Trojans were Ionic Greek speakers.

Says who? Homer?

In the Iliad, they speak Greek differently from Achaean Greek according
to some linguist's claim. It seems difficult for them to speak Greek
differently without being Greek speakers. The coinage of the Ionian
League a few centuries later was inscribed in Greek.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Names and the only inscription found at the site point
to the native language as being Luwian or some related idiom.

Interesting. I knew nothing about relics found there.

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-11-15 17:55:25 UTC

Post by Dingbat
The Trojans were Ionic Greek speakers.

Says who? Homer?

It's reasonable that some Archaic Greek dialect had some currency among
them and in the Iliad the authors of the epic would have put a
reasonably appropriate dialect in their mouths. Obviously you are not
going to have them speak their native language, if different, in a
Greek epic.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Names and the only inscription found at the site point
to the native language as being Luwian or some related idiom.

Interesting. I knew nothing about relics found there.

A seal in Luwian was found. The names can be explained through
Anatolian languages.

b***@ihug.co.nz

2017-11-15 20:49:34 UTC

Post by Dingbat
The Trojans were Ionic Greek speakers.

Says who? Homer?

In the Iliad, they speak Greek differently from Achaean Greek according
to some linguist's claim.

Could this be what you're thinking of?

"Hilary Mackie has detected in the Iliad a consistent differentiation
between representations in Greek of Achaean and Trojan speech; in
simplest terms, Trojans speak poetically, with the aim of avoiding
conflict, whereas Achaeans repeatedly engage in public, ritualized
abuse that linguists term (from another source) flyting: "Achaeans
are proficient at blame, while Trojans perform praise poetry"
(Mackie 1998:83)." (Wiki, Trojan language)

Dingbat

2017-11-17 03:50:44 UTC

Post by Dingbat
The Trojans were Ionic Greek speakers.

Says who? Homer?

In the Iliad, they speak Greek differently from Achaean Greek according
to some linguist's claim.

Could this be what you're thinking of?
"Hilary Mackie has detected in the Iliad a consistent differentiation
between representations in Greek of Achaean and Trojan speech; in
simplest terms, Trojans speak poetically, with the aim of avoiding
conflict, whereas Achaeans repeatedly engage in public, ritualized
abuse that linguists term (from another source) flyting: "Achaeans
are proficient at blame, while Trojans perform praise poetry"
(Mackie 1998:83)." (Wiki, Trojan language)

Possibly.

b***@ihug.co.nz

2017-11-17 04:25:07 UTC

Post by Dingbat
The Trojans were Ionic Greek speakers.

Says who? Homer?

In the Iliad, they speak Greek differently from Achaean Greek according
to some linguist's claim.

Could this be what you're thinking of?
"Hilary Mackie has detected in the Iliad a consistent differentiation
between representations in Greek of Achaean and Trojan speech; in
simplest terms, Trojans speak poetically, with the aim of avoiding
conflict, whereas Achaeans repeatedly engage in public, ritualized
abuse that linguists term (from another source) flyting: "Achaeans
are proficient at blame, while Trojans perform praise poetry"
(Mackie 1998:83)." (Wiki, Trojan language)

Possibly.

It sounds more like a difference in discourse style, rather than any
structural features which might give us hints about Trojan. In fact
having the Trojans speak Greek in Homer is surely no more than a literary
device, a necessity for a Greek-speaking audience. It really tells us
nothing about what the actual Trojans actually spoke when they were at
home.

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-11-17 14:58:58 UTC

Post by Dingbat
The Trojans were Ionic Greek speakers.

Says who? Homer?

In the Iliad, they speak Greek differently from Achaean Greek according
to some linguist's claim.

Could this be what you're thinking of?
"Hilary Mackie has detected in the Iliad a consistent differentiation
between representations in Greek of Achaean and Trojan speech; in
simplest terms, Trojans speak poetically, with the aim of avoiding
conflict, whereas Achaeans repeatedly engage in public, ritualized
abuse that linguists term (from another source) flyting: "Achaeans
are proficient at blame, while Trojans perform praise poetry"
(Mackie 1998:83)." (Wiki, Trojan language)

Possibly.

Indeed.

Dingbat

2017-11-18 07:29:06 UTC

Post by Dingbat
The Trojans were Ionic Greek speakers.

Says who? Homer?

In the Iliad, they speak Greek differently from Achaean Greek according
to some linguist's claim.

Could this be what you're thinking of?
"Hilary Mackie has detected in the Iliad a consistent differentiation
between representations in Greek of Achaean and Trojan speech; in
simplest terms, Trojans speak poetically, with the aim of avoiding
conflict, whereas Achaeans repeatedly engage in public, ritualized
abuse that linguists term (from another source) flyting: "Achaeans
are proficient at blame, while Trojans perform praise poetry"
(Mackie 1998:83)." (Wiki, Trojan language)

Possibly.

It sounds more like a difference in discourse style, rather than any
structural features which might give us hints about Trojan.

Same dialect but different style?

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
In fact
having the Trojans speak Greek in Homer is surely no more than a literary
device, a necessity for a Greek-speaking audience. It really tells us
nothing about what the actual Trojans actually spoke when they were at
home.

OK.

Italo

2017-11-18 23:03:37 UTC

Post by Dingbat
The Trojans were Ionic Greek speakers.

Says who? Homer?

In the Iliad, they speak Greek differently from Achaean Greek according
to some linguist's claim.

Whereas the Achaeans do speak Achaean Greek in the Iliad ??

Post by Dingbat
It seems difficult for them to speak Greek
differently without being Greek speakers. The coinage of the Ionian
League a few centuries later was inscribed in Greek.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Names and the only inscription found at the site point
to the native language as being Luwian or some related idiom.

Interesting. I knew nothing about relics found there.

The Luwian sealstone comes from Troy VIIb2. Which is after the destruction of the Homeric town, and after the end of the Hittite empire.
Luwian sealstones are also found in places such Mycenae and Thebes.

--
b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-11-20 07:20:14 UTC

Post by Italo
The Luwian sealstone comes from Troy VIIb2. Which is after the destruction of the Homeric town, and after the end of the Hittite empire.

Sealstone? You must mean the _bronze_ seal from Troy VIIb, end of 12th
century BC, found by Donald Easton in 1995. It is round, convex, has
a diameter of some two centimeters, and shows Luwian hieroglyphs on both
sides. One side names a master scribe, the other a woman, presumably his
wife. The contour of a writing tablet means SCRIBA scribe, the vulva
FEMINA woman, and a honoring by-word is read as BONUS2. The scribe and
his wife may have belonged to the tribe that ruled Troy decades after
the end of the war. It has been assumed that Homer (one of the bards
we know under the collective name of Homer, Homer 1 of the Iliad, Homer 2
of the Odyssey) consulted the archives of Troy. Maybe he studied documents
written by the above master scribe?

Peter T. Daniels

2017-11-20 12:16:17 UTC

Post by Italo
The Luwian sealstone comes from Troy VIIb2. Which is after the destruction of the Homeric town, and after the end of the Hittite empire.

(a) Homer was not a person.

(b) Homer knew nothing of writing.

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-11-21 07:44:53 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
(a) Homer was not a person.
(b) Homer knew nothing of writing.

As I said, Homer was a collective name, such as Bourbaki for a group of
French mathematicians, among them André Weyl. Ricardo Mansilla of the Free
University Mexico run a DNA taxonomy program on the Odyssey and found that
it contains material of a dozen or even sixteeen bards. I guess the same
holds for the Iliad: Homer 1 of the Iliad and Homer 2 of the Odyssey turned
rich bardic material from a good four hundred years into coherent narratives.
The Phaistos Disc uses a peculiar Greek alphabet from 1,650 BC, and there
is another alphabet of which we have traces in literature (the name eludes
me for the time being), referred to in the Odyssey. A goddess wraps Odysseus
into a long stripe of cloth when he goes on his wild journey to the shore
of the Phaeacians, identified as an early Troy by Eberhard Zangger, hence
that journey is a time travel via reading, an imaginary journey experienced
while studying old scrolls. When Odysseus reaches the shore he should get rid
of his cloth, which can be understood as a poetological instruction: immerse
yourself in literature, but when you absorbed all the information, free
yourself and trust on your poetic skills. I claim that Homer 1 of the Iliad
flourished in the time of the first Messenian war, and Homer 2 of the Odyssey
in the time of the second Messenain war. Both feared for the coherence and
unity of the Greek civilization. And both can easily be distinguished:
Homer 1 believed that all is decided by the gods, whereas Homer 2 says near
the beginning of the Odyssey that we can't hold the gods responsible for
all that happens.

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-11-22 08:57:41 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
As I said, Homer was a collective name, such as Bourbaki for a group of
French mathematicians, among them André Weyl. Ricardo Mansilla of the Free
University Mexico run a DNA taxonomy program on the Odyssey and found that
it contains material of a dozen or even sixteeen bards. I guess the same
holds for the Iliad: Homer 1 of the Iliad and Homer 2 of the Odyssey turned
rich bardic material from a good four hundred years into coherent narratives.
The Phaistos Disc uses a peculiar Greek alphabet from 1,650 BC, and there
is another alphabet of which we have traces in literature (the name eludes
me for the time being), referred to in the Odyssey. A goddess wraps Odysseus
into a long stripe of cloth when he goes on his wild journey to the shore
of the Phaeacians, identified as an early Troy by Eberhard Zangger, hence
that journey is a time travel via reading, an imaginary journey experienced
while studying old scrolls. When Odysseus reaches the shore he should get rid
of his cloth, which can be understood as a poetological instruction: immerse
yourself in literature, but when you absorbed all the information, free
yourself and trust on your poetic skills. I claim that Homer 1 of the Iliad
flourished in the time of the first Messenian war, and Homer 2 of the Odyssey
in the time of the second Messenain war. Both feared for the coherence and
Homer 1 believed that all is decided by the gods, whereas Homer 2 says near
the beginning of the Odyssey that we can't hold the gods responsible for
all that happens.

I mean the Cadmean script. Martin Bernal believes that it was known in Greece
before 1400 BC. Herodotus claims that he saw inscriptions on three tripods
in the temple of the Ismaean Apollo at Thebes that were in old Cadmean letters,
and quotes the inscriptions, in all five hexameters. The daughter of Cadmos
in the Odyssey is Ino Leukothea of the beautiful ankles, once mortal now
immortal. She tells Odysseus to take off his clothes (leave his time) and
wrap her immortal veil around his breast (symbol of writing, he should study
the documents in archives) and when he reaches the shore of the Phaeakians (early Troy according to Eberhard Zangger) he should unwrap the veil (leave
the archive and trust his poetic genius - Odysseus or rather a Homeric bard).
Once we understand the symbols there is plenty information. Consider the
beautiful ankles of Ino. Early samples of Phoenician writing such as the Abdo
fragment, 17-16th century BC (?), and the Shapalba-al inscription, 16-15th century (?), give the impression of running letters, and several of them have
like feet. No 'feet' anymore in younger versions of the Phoenikian alphabet.
So Homer - one of the Homeric bards - would have had access to early documents
written in Phoenician.

Italo

2017-11-20 14:37:30 UTC

Post by Italo
The Luwian sealstone comes from Troy VIIb2. Which is after the destruction of the Homeric town, and after the end of the Hittite empire.

Sealstone?

I.e. an actual seal rather as a seal imprint.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
You must mean the _bronze_ seal from Troy VIIb, end of 12th
century BC, found by Donald Easton in 1995. It is round, convex, has
a diameter of some two centimeters, and shows Luwian hieroglyphs on both
sides.

There is a (bi)convex seal from Perati, Attica. It is considered a trade-item, worn on a necklace.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
One side names a master scribe, the other a woman, presumably his
wife. The contour of a writing tablet means SCRIBA scribe, the vulva
FEMINA woman,

FEMINA/MATER. My guess would be that it depicts an egg.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
and a honoring by-word is read as BONUS2. The scribe and
his wife may have belonged to the tribe that ruled Troy decades after
the end of the war.

One mention has that Trojans remained at the site after the war, otherwise the remainder supposedly continued at towns in the surrounding area, especially at Gergis (= Hittite Karkisha and perhaps Strabo's "village of the Trojans").

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
It has been assumed that Homer (one of the bards
we know under the collective name of Homer, Homer 1 of the Iliad, Homer 2
of the Odyssey) consulted the archives of Troy.

I believe Homer's written sources were in linear-b. For instance Linear-b doesn't distinguish between K and Ch, hence Herakles fights a Ketos rather as Ḫattus, same for the Keteioi.
The same 'artefact' from written tradition is with "Skaioi" for the Saioi (< Seḫa).

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Maybe he studied documents
written by the above master scribe?

That the Sibylline books, acquired by the last Etruscan king of Rome, were believed to originate from Gergis also illustrates the notion of written tradition there.

--
b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-11-21 07:53:25 UTC

Post by Italo
I.e. an actual seal rather as a seal imprint.

An actual seal, but of bronze, not a cut gem.

Post by Italo
There is a (bi)convex seal from Perati, Attica. It is considered a trade-item, worn on a necklace.

Also the bronze seal from Troy VIIb has a (lateral) perforation, so it could
have been worn as a necklace.

Post by Italo
FEMINA/MATER. My guess would be that it depicts an egg.

No, it has the form of a standing lens.

Post by Italo
One mention has that Trojans remained at the site after the war, otherwise the remainder supposedly continued at towns in the surrounding area, especially at Gergis (= Hittite Karkisha and perhaps Strabo's "village of the Trojans").

The episode of the oxen of Helios was the reason why Odysseus and his men
had to stay for ten years in the region, mentioned at the very beginning
of the epic. I read their transgression as raid on Crimean ships transporting
gold from the Cholcis and tin from Central Asia, heavy ships that were
symbolized by oxen, the oxen of Helios, the realm of Helios the sunny Crimea.

Post by Italo
I believe Homer's written sources were in linear-b. For instance Linear-b doesn't distinguish between K and Ch, hence Herakles fights a Ketos rather as Ḫattus, same for the Keteioi.
The same 'artefact' from written tradition is with "Skaioi" for the Saioi (< Seḫa).
That the Sibylline books, acquired by the last Etruscan king of Rome, were believed to originate from Gergis also illustrates the notion of written tradition there.

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-11-21 10:24:23 UTC

Post by Italo
I.e. an actual seal rather as a seal imprint.

An actual seal, but of bronze, not a cut gem.

Post by Italo
There is a (bi)convex seal from Perati, Attica. It is considered a
trade-item, worn on a necklace.

Also the bronze seal from Troy VIIb has a (lateral) perforation, so it could
have been worn as a necklace.

It could be the way the offical carried it.

Post by Italo
FEMINA/MATER. My guess would be that it depicts an egg.

No, it has the form of a standing lens.

Post by Italo
One mention has that Trojans remained at the site after the war, otherwise
the remainder supposedly continued at towns in the surrounding area,
especially at Gergis (= Hittite Karkisha and perhaps Strabo's "village of
the Trojans").

Post by Italo
I believe Homer's written sources were in linear-b. For instance Linear-b
doesn't distinguish between K and Ch, hence Herakles fights a Ketos rather
as Ḫattus, same for the Keteioi. The same 'artefact' from written tradition
is with "Skaioi" for the Saioi (< Seḫa).
That the Sibylline books, acquired by the last Etruscan king of Rome, were
believed to originate from Gergis also illustrates the notion of written
tradition there.

Italo

2017-11-21 13:32:18 UTC

Post by Italo
I.e. an actual seal rather as a seal imprint.

An actual seal, but of bronze, not a cut gem.

Yes I know that.

Post by Italo
There is a (bi)convex seal from Perati, Attica. It is considered a trade-item, worn on a necklace.

Also the bronze seal from Troy VIIb has a (lateral) perforation, so it could
have been worn as a necklace.

Yes. But why is it considered so significant over other examples. There is no question that I.E. Anatolian languages were spoken in the west in the iron age, but it were the Hittites that shaped this situation - IMO by deportations of populations from one end of the empire to the other, rather as voluntary adopting Luwian as lingua franca. The core area of I.E. Anatolian languages is east/south-east Anatolia (among the Ebla tablets, some royal names of Carchemish are hypothesised to be I.E. Anatolian), although Palaic may've preceded Hittite expansion in the north-west.

Post by Italo
FEMINA/MATER.

Apparently the same sign was used because the words are phonetically alike; anati- "mother", wanati- "woman".

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
My guess would be that it depicts an egg.
No, it has the form of a standing lens.

Not in all cases. Would be the the case when drawing the sign with two strokes rather as with a single line. Hawkins mentions a form of the oval sign with a central line, but that seems to indicate some grammatic distinction rather.

.."village of the Ilians" rather.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The episode of the oxen of Helios was the reason why Odysseus and his men
had to stay for ten years in the region, mentioned at the very beginning
of the epic. I read their transgression as raid on Crimean ships transporting
gold from the Cholcis and tin from Central Asia, heavy ships that were
symbolized by oxen, the oxen of Helios, the realm of Helios the sunny Crimea.

No, the episode with cattle of Helios - on Sicily - connects to the story of Herakles fetching the cattle of Geryon (would herds of Aurochsen still roam western Europe in those days?). http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/cattle.html

Btw, as for the geography of the Odyssey, I found a perfect match with Homer's description of Scheria, hiding in plain sight. All is still there, the Phaiakian ship turned to stone, the steep rocky coastline, walls 27 meter thick.. "the walls, long and high and crowned with palisades, a wonder to behold."

--
b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-11-22 08:41:03 UTC

Post by Italo
Not in all cases. Would be the the case when drawing the sign with two strokes rather as with a single line. Hawkins mentions a form of the oval sign with a central line, but that seems to indicate some grammatic distinction rather.

In the case of the bronze seal from TroyVIIB found by Donald Easton in 1995
the sing for woman is a vulva, rendered as a standing lens, somewhat like
this () but the arcs touch each other.

Post by Italo
No, the episode with cattle of Helios - on Sicily - connects to the story of Herakles fetching the cattle of Geryon (would herds of Aurochsen still roam western Europe in those days?). http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/cattle.html

There are different interpretations. Mine is that sheep and goats were
foreign ships waiting for favorable winds in the harbor on the Besik bay,
their milk high tributes they had to pay to Troy symbolized by Polyphem,
horses were Achaean ships, the Trojan horse also was a ship, seemingly
abandoned, drifting by the harbor on the Besik bay, hauled in by the Trojans,
whereupon Achaean soldiers leapt out of their hiding, the shocked Trojans
alarmed the citadel, the Trojan army sped to the harbor, and as the citadel
was left alone the Achaeans set fire to the acropolis, blinding Polyphem,
as it were. And the oxen of Helios were a Crimean fleet sacked by the
Achaeans, a transgression which obliged them to stay far longer in the region.
Helios was the sun god. Solar symbols are found in the Ukraine of the Bronze
Age, bowls decorated with them, and shiny yellow amber discs, several of them
decorated with rays.

Post by Italo
Btw, as for the geography of the Odyssey, I found a perfect match with Homer's description of Scheria, hiding in plain sight. All is still there, the Phaiakian ship turned to stone, the steep rocky coastline, walls 27 meter thick.. "the walls, long and high and crowned with palisades, a wonder to behold."

Many such places have been found. In my opinion the journeys of Odysseus
are dreams, and the strange places he comes to are Troy, Troy in disguise,
and blended with other places and periods of time.

Italo

2017-11-22 12:39:21 UTC

Sorry, but this denies any factuality of the text and suggests one can throw or project anything at it as if it were some psychoanalitical device.

Many such places have been found.

I don't think there have, it has to be 24 hours sail from Ithaka, and Corfu doesn't fit on other grounds.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
In my opinion the journeys of Odysseus
are dreams, and the strange places he comes to are Troy, Troy in disguise,
and blended with other places and periods of time.

Quite a nihilistic interpretation.

--
b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

Italo

2017-11-22 12:45:29 UTC

Post by Italo
among the Ebla tablets, some royal names of Carchemish are hypothesised to be I.E. Anatolian

correction:

These names mentioned in the Ebla texts belong to Armi(Armium/Armanum). Some identify Armi with a site 60 south of Carchemish.

"Typical are masculine personal names ending in -a-du: A-la/li-wa-du/da,
A-li/lu-wa-du, Ba-mi-a-du, La-wa-du, Mi-mi-a-du, Mu-lu-wa-du.
This reminds one of the suffix -(a)nda, -(a)ndu, very productive in the
Anatolian branch of Indo-European (Laroche 1966: 329). Elements such as
ali-, alali-, lawadu-, memi-, mula/i- are attested in Anatolian personal
names of the Old Assyrian period (Laroche 1966: 26–27, 106, 118, 120)."
http://dlx.b-ok.org/genesis/1485000/7fef919e914ab6b17a27a0c739a174fd/_as/[Alfonso_Archi]_Ebla_and_its_Archives_Texts,_Hist(b-ok.org).pdf

Five centuries or so later ("before 1776 BC"), there appears another -anda name; Aplahanda king of Carchemish.
https://books.google.nl/books?id=JgA-ez-BLbEC&pg=PA49

Some interesting finds there recently, btw:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/impression-seals-to-illuminate-hittite-administration-116395

--
b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-11-21 10:22:35 UTC

Post by Italo
The Luwian sealstone comes from Troy VIIb2. Which is after the destruction
of the Homeric town, and after the end of the Hittite empire.

Sealstone?

I.e. an actual seal rather as a seal imprint.

There is a (bi)convex seal from Perati, Attica. It is considered a
trade-item, worn on a necklace.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
One side names a master scribe, the other a woman, presumably his
wife. The contour of a writing tablet means SCRIBA scribe, the vulva
FEMINA woman,

FEMINA/MATER. My guess would be that it depicts an egg.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
and a honoring by-word is read as BONUS2. The scribe and
his wife may have belonged to the tribe that ruled Troy decades after
the end of the war.

One mention has that Trojans remained at the site after the war, otherwise
the remainder supposedly continued at towns in the surrounding area,
especially at Gergis (= Hittite Karkisha and perhaps Strabo's "village of the
Trojans").

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
It has been assumed that Homer (one of the bards
we know under the collective name of Homer, Homer 1 of the Iliad, Homer 2
of the Odyssey) consulted the archives of Troy.

I believe Homer's written sources were in linear-b. For instance Linear-b
doesn't distinguish between K and Ch, hence Herakles fights a Ketos rather as
Ḫattus, same for the Keteioi. The same 'artefact' from written tradition is
with "Skaioi" for the Saioi (< Seḫa).

It certain that the story takes place at the time when Linear B was
used.

I have a well known archaeometrist friend / colleague. She describes
how an artefact in clay inscribed in Linear B with a passage from the
the Iliad about Nestor bringing in the ships was brought under heavy
security to the Max Planck Institute in Munich. Evening had aprroached
but determining authenticity was going to be easy either in the
thousands or zero. Linear B had remained unkown until recently. Clay
can be dated by thermolumiscence.

The result was 400 years BP!

400 years ago Linear B was unknown. She spent all night trying to find
out what was going on. Finally she found out. The thermoluminesence
spectrum was consistent with recent irradiation by a dental X-ray
machine at maximum dose.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Maybe he studied documents
written by the above master scribe?

That the Sibylline books, acquired by the last Etruscan king of Rome, were
believed to originate from Gergis also illustrates the notion of written
tradition there.

António Marques

2017-11-21 13:51:25 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
I have a well known archaeometrist friend / colleague. She describes
how an artefact in clay inscribed in Linear B with a passage from the
the Iliad about Nestor bringing in the ships was brought under heavy
security to the Max Planck Institute in Munich. Evening had aprroached
but determining authenticity was going to be easy either in the
thousands or zero. Linear B had remained unkown until recently. Clay
can be dated by thermolumiscence.
The result was 400 years BP!
400 years ago Linear B was unknown. She spent all night trying to find
out what was going on. Finally she found out. The thermoluminesence
spectrum was consistent with recent irradiation by a dental X-ray
machine at maximum dose.

That's a general issue with such methods. Technology gives the impression
it replaces judgement, but it doesn't, it's just a tool, and what people
don't get is that more accurate tools require better and more careful
artisans, not worse ones. DNA suffers from the same problem. The recent
flurry of papers on phylogeny of divers groups, each contradicting the
former and sometimes falling into camps, is just that - technology
substituting judgement, whereas whoever takes a step back can easily see
how opposite results can be obtained from the same data according to the
use you make of the analytical tools. And it's not the case that folks are
bent on getting certain results and ignore the rest; rather, they're
usually so invested in the workings of a method that they don't realise
that the method's applicability is what matters.

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-11-22 00:44:03 UTC

That's a general issue with such methods. Technology gives the impression

I don't see how you obtain this. It was proven that forgery was
involved. End of story.

Post by AntÃ³nio Marques
it replaces judgement, but it doesn't, it's just a tool, and what people
don't get is that more accurate tools require better and more careful
artisans, not worse ones. DNA suffers from the same problem. The recent
flurry of papers on phylogeny of divers groups, each contradicting the
former and sometimes falling into camps, is just that - technology
substituting judgement, whereas whoever takes a step back can easily see
how opposite results can be obtained from the same data according to the
use you make of the analytical tools. And it's not the case that folks are
bent on getting certain results and ignore the rest; rather, they're
usually so invested in the workings of a method that they don't realise
that the method's applicability is what matters.

António Marques

2017-11-22 03:10:45 UTC

That's a general issue with such methods. Technology gives the impression

I don't see how you obtain this.

How do I obtain what?

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
It was proven that forgery was
involved. End of story.

It never is. Managing to game the method by 400 years can be enough for
other applications and raises the suspicion that someone might think of
something that can game it by the 3200 years required.

The issue here is that what the spectrum tells you is simply what radiation
is present (pace the pleonasm), just as C14 tells you what isotopes are
there. That the explanation for the isotopes and the radiation is a certain
age of the artefact is an assumption on our part, that disregards other
explanations. Ultimately it's not so different from a MADE IN TROY label
(which we would straight away dismiss as falsifiable). Your friend here, in
face of the impossible age, was able to think of an alternative, but what
if the age wasn't off by so much? Not only the dating would be considered
reliable but would overrule other (true) evidence contradicting it -
instead of being considered just one more datum to take into account. We
see a lot of that.

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-11-22 11:11:37 UTC

In <ov2prl$tnf$***@dont-email.me>, on Tuesday, 11/21/2017, António
Marques wrote:

Evidently you don't have confidence in natural science and you are
criticising a field you have only minimal knowledge of. I really get
annoyed at such people, especially when it comes to natural science.

Best we don't discuss. You made your point that you don't trust
physics.

That's a general issue with such methods. Technology gives the impression

I don't see how you obtain this.

How do I obtain what?

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
It was proven that forgery was
involved. End of story.

It never is. Managing to game the method by 400 years can be enough for
other applications and raises the suspicion that someone might think of
something that can game it by the 3200 years required.

It requires a large amount of radiation to fool the tests for that many
years and then there is the question of mimicking broad spectrum
radiation natural radiation.

Post by AntÃ³nio Marques
The issue here is that what the spectrum tells you is simply what radiation
is present (pace the pleonasm), just as C14 tells you what isotopes are
there. That the explanation for the isotopes and the radiation is a certain
age of the artefact is an assumption on our part, that disregards other

It happens to work!

You don't get dental X-Ray radiation occuring naturally.

C14 method is based on the decay of radioacgtive carbon. It doesn't
work for recent material since large amounts of carbon was released
into the atmosphere during the Industrial Revolution.

Post by AntÃ³nio Marques
explanations. Ultimately it's not so different from a MADE IN TROY label
(which we would straight away dismiss as falsifiable). Your friend here, in
face of the impossible age, was able to think of an alternative, but what
if the age wasn't off by so much? Not only the dating would be considered
reliable but would overrule other (true) evidence contradicting it -
instead of being considered just one more datum to take into account. We
see a lot of that.

Italo

2017-11-21 15:31:36 UTC

Post by Italo
The Luwian sealstone comes from Troy VIIb2. Which is after the destruction
of the Homeric town, and after the end of the Hittite empire.

Sealstone?

I.e. an actual seal rather as a seal imprint.

There is a (bi)convex seal from Perati, Attica. It is considered a
trade-item, worn on a necklace.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
One side names a master scribe, the other a woman, presumably his
wife. The contour of a writing tablet means SCRIBA scribe, the vulva
FEMINA woman,

FEMINA/MATER. My guess would be that it depicts an egg.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
and a honoring by-word is read as BONUS2. The scribe and
his wife may have belonged to the tribe that ruled Troy decades after
the end of the war.

One mention has that Trojans remained at the site after the war, otherwise
the remainder supposedly continued at towns in the surrounding area,
especially at Gergis (= Hittite Karkisha and perhaps Strabo's "village of the
Trojans").

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
It has been assumed that Homer (one of the bards
we know under the collective name of Homer, Homer 1 of the Iliad, Homer 2
of the Odyssey) consulted the archives of Troy.

I believe Homer's written sources were in linear-b. For instance Linear-b
doesn't distinguish between K and Ch, hence Herakles fights a Ketos rather as
Ḫattus, same for the Keteioi. The same 'artefact' from written tradition is
with "Skaioi" for the Saioi (< Seḫa).

It certain that the story takes place at the time when Linear B was
used.

And afterwards. Considering Cyprus and Anatolia-Syria, I have no doubt that there were places in the Aegean too where alphabet and earlier writing system co-existed.

But what is the use for a forger to reset the clock by a few centuries?
It is common practice to look for underdrawings in paintings with röntgen, and various kinds of genuine ancient artefacts are also examined this way. I can imagine this being applied to a hard to read text. So I suppose that there were also other factors indicating a fake. Is this artefact mentioned in the literature ?

--
b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-11-22 00:50:38 UTC

Post by Italo
The Luwian sealstone comes from Troy VIIb2. Which is after the
destruction of the Homeric town, and after the end of the Hittite
empire.

Sealstone?

I.e. an actual seal rather as a seal imprint.

There is a (bi)convex seal from Perati, Attica. It is considered a
trade-item, worn on a necklace.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
One side names a master scribe, the other a woman, presumably his
wife. The contour of a writing tablet means SCRIBA scribe, the vulva
FEMINA woman,

FEMINA/MATER. My guess would be that it depicts an egg.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
and a honoring by-word is read as BONUS2. The scribe and
his wife may have belonged to the tribe that ruled Troy decades after
the end of the war.

One mention has that Trojans remained at the site after the war, otherwise
the remainder supposedly continued at towns in the surrounding area,
especially at Gergis (= Hittite Karkisha and perhaps Strabo's "village of
the Trojans").

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
It has been assumed that Homer (one of the bards
we know under the collective name of Homer, Homer 1 of the Iliad, Homer 2
of the Odyssey) consulted the archives of Troy.

I believe Homer's written sources were in linear-b. For instance Linear-b
doesn't distinguish between K and Ch, hence Herakles fights a Ketos rather
as Ḫattus, same for the Keteioi. The same 'artefact' from written
tradition is with "Skaioi" for the Saioi (< Seḫa).

It certain that the story takes place at the time when Linear B was
used.

And afterwards. Considering Cyprus and Anatolia-Syria, I have no doubt that
there were places in the Aegean too where alphabet and earlier writing system
co-existed.

But what is the use for a forger to reset the clock by a few centuries?

He thought he could fool experts, he couldn't.

Post by Italo
It is common practice to look for underdrawings in paintings with röntgen,
and various kinds of genuine ancient artefacts are also examined this way. I
can imagine this being applied to a hard to read text. So I suppose that

No. You can't do this with clay. Such tests would not be performed
prior to thermoluminesence dating.

Post by Italo
there were also other factors indicating a fake. Is this artefact mentioned
in the literature ?

I assume it is not mentioned on account of it beeing a fake.

I did not persue any investigation on my own. It was just an aside in a
workshop on applied radiation physics.

Italo

2017-11-22 11:49:52 UTC

But what is the use for a forger to reset the clock by a few centuries?

He thought he could fool experts, he couldn't.

No. You can't do this with clay. Such tests would not be performed
prior to thermoluminesence dating.

Any person can arrange to make an x-ray picture, if a collector is curious enough he can just try it.
Lead-oxyde is one of the oldest pigments. A text written with a brush on pottery could potentially contain traces of lead, for all I know. If so, a faded text may show up brightly.
(But you probably mean a clay tablet, in which case the above doesn't apply, of course)

Post by Italo
there were also other factors indicating a fake. Is this artefact mentioned
in the literature ?

I assume it is not mentioned on account of it beeing a fake.
I did not persue any investigation on my own. It was just an aside in a
workshop on applied radiation physics.

--
b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-11-22 14:39:51 UTC

But what is the use for a forger to reset the clock by a few centuries?

He thought he could fool experts, he couldn't.

Post by Italo
It is common practice to look for underdrawings in paintings with röntgen,
and various kinds of genuine ancient artefacts are also examined this way.
I can imagine this being applied to a hard to read text. So I suppose that

No. You can't do this with clay. Such tests would not be performed
prior to thermoluminesence dating.

Any person can arrange to make an x-ray picture, if a collector is curious
enough he can just try it. Lead-oxyde is one of the oldest pigments. A text
written with a brush on pottery could potentially contain traces of lead, for
all I know. If so, a faded text may show up brightly. (But you probably mean
a clay tablet, in which case the above doesn't apply, of course)

My understanding was that it was a clay tablet, not painted. Meticulous
care and heavy security was described as to the delivery of the
artifact, and scientific dating was a priority. They would not have
compromised it before testing.

Post by Italo
there were also other factors indicating a fake. Is this artefact mentioned
in the literature ?

I assume it is not mentioned on account of it beeing a fake.
I did not persue any investigation on my own. It was just an aside in a
workshop on applied radiation physics.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2017-11-21 17:29:08 UTC

[ ... ]
It certain that the story takes place at the time when Linear B was used.
I have a well known archaeometrist friend / colleague. She describes
how an artefact in clay inscribed in Linear B with a passage from the
the Iliad about Nestor bringing in the ships was brought under heavy
security to the Max Planck Institute in Munich. Evening had aprroached
but determining authenticity was going to be easy either in the
thousands or zero. Linear B had remained unkown until recently. Clay
can be dated by thermolumiscence.
The result was 400 years BP!
400 years ago Linear B was unknown. She spent all night trying to find
out what was going on. Finally she found out. The thermoluminesence
spectrum was consistent with recent irradiation by a dental X-ray
machine at maximum dose.

Very interesting example. It's incredibly difficult to avoid artefacts
in this sort of study. In his excellent* book on human Neanderthal
relationships Svante Päabo [(2014) Neanderthal Man: In Search of Lost
Genomes] describes in great detail the extreme lengths he went to to
avoid contamination and other artefacts. If I remember rightly he set
up a secure laboratory completely inside another secure laboratory, and
required everyone not only to undergo the usual precautions before
going into the outer one, but also required to go through further
decontamination before they could go further.

Incidentally, at first reading I read 400 years BP as 400 years BC and
wondered what the problem was. I have asuspicion that António may have
done the same.

*Excellent if you don't mind learning more about his sex life than you
may wish to know.

athel

Peter T. Daniels

2017-11-21 17:50:48 UTC

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

It certain that the story takes place at the time when Linear B was used.
I have a well known archaeometrist friend / colleague. She describes
how an artefact in clay inscribed in Linear B with a passage from the
the Iliad about Nestor bringing in the ships was brought under heavy
security to the Max Planck Institute in Munich. Evening had aprroached
but determining authenticity was going to be easy either in the
thousands or zero. Linear B had remained unkown until recently. Clay
can be dated by thermolumiscence.
The result was 400 years BP!
400 years ago Linear B was unknown. She spent all night trying to find
out what was going on. Finally she found out. The thermoluminesence
spectrum was consistent with recent irradiation by a dental X-ray
machine at maximum dose.

That's rather different from intentional fraud.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Incidentally, at first reading I read 400 years BP as 400 years BC and
wondered what the problem was. I have asuspicion that António may have
done the same.

Highly unlikely. 400 BC is nearly as unlikely for a Linear B artifact as 400 BP.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
*Excellent if you don't mind learning more about his sex life than you
may wish to know.

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-11-22 00:51:57 UTC

[ ... ]
It certain that the story takes place at the time when Linear B was used.
I have a well known archaeometrist friend / colleague. She describes how an
artefact in clay inscribed in Linear B with a passage from the the Iliad
about Nestor bringing in the ships was brought under heavy security to the
Max Planck Institute in Munich. Evening had aprroached but determining
authenticity was going to be easy either in the thousands or zero. Linear B
had remained unkown until recently. Clay can be dated by thermolumiscence.
The result was 400 years BP!
400 years ago Linear B was unknown. She spent all night trying to find out
what was going on. Finally she found out. The thermoluminesence spectrum
was consistent with recent irradiation by a dental X-ray machine at maximum
dose.

Very interesting example. It's incredibly difficult to avoid artefacts in
this sort of study. In his excellent* book on human Neanderthal
relationships Svante Päabo [(2014) Neanderthal Man: In Search of Lost
Genomes] describes in great detail the extreme lengths he went to to avoid
contamination and other artefacts. If I remember rightly he set up a secure
laboratory completely inside another secure laboratory, and required everyone
not only to undergo the usual precautions before going into the outer one,
but also required to go through further decontamination before they could go
further.
Incidentally, at first reading I read 400 years BP as 400 years BC and

400 years ago was the reading.

wondered what the problem was. I have asuspicion that António may have done
the same.
*Excellent if you don't mind learning more about his sex life than you may
wish to know.

athel

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2017-11-22 08:51:53 UTC

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Very interesting example. It's incredibly difficult to avoid artefacts
in this sort of study. In his excellent* book on human Neanderthal
relationships Svante Päabo [(2014) Neanderthal Man: In Search of Lost
Genomes] describes in great detail the extreme lengths he went to to
avoid contamination and other artefacts. If I remember rightly he set
up a secure laboratory completely inside another secure laboratory, and
required everyone not only to undergo the usual precautions before
going into the outer one, but also required to go through further
decontamination before they could go further.
Incidentally, at first reading I read 400 years BP as 400 years BC and

400 years ago was the reading.

Yes, I understood that on re-reading more carefully.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
wondered what the problem was. I have asuspicion that António may have
done the same.
*Excellent if you don't mind learning more about his sex life than you
may wish to know.

athel

--
athel

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-10-16 01:58:23 UTC

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain the
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

-
Hmm, interesting, Ross. I'd claimed to Carlos L. that Etruscans were a group
of Trojans (refugees though, rather than colonists).
I guess this is a coincidence, Ante-Diluvian & Luvian/Luwian?
an·te·di·lu·vi·an belonging to the time before the biblical Flood

There are only so many ways human beings can position their tongues in
their mouth, yet the possibilities of imagination are immense. Is this
a bad karaoke joke?

Daud Deden

2017-10-16 21:24:15 UTC

Thanks Yusuf, nature trumps imagination every time. I was shocked when I realized that post-ice-age flooding into the Black Sea 7.7ka (Ryan & Pitman) verified the tales of Plato's Atlantis & Noah's Ark deluge and the other oral histories of the region.

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-17 03:07:18 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks Yusuf, nature trumps imagination every time. I was shocked when I realized that post-ice-age flooding into the Black Sea 7.7ka (Ryan & Pitman) verified the tales of Plato's Atlantis & Noah's Ark deluge and the other oral histories of the region.

Sorry, but hydrogeologists have shown that the Ryan & Pitman flood NEVER HAPPENED.

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-10-17 06:54:47 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks Yusuf, nature trumps imagination every time. I was shocked when I
realized that post-ice-age flooding into the Black Sea 7.7ka (Ryan & Pitman)
verified the tales of Plato's Atlantis & Noah's Ark deluge and the other
oral histories of the region.

Sorry, but hydrogeologists have shown that the Ryan & Pitman flood NEVER HAPPENED.

I believe less extensive.

Daud Deden

2017-10-17 14:08:38 UTC

Thanks Peter. Why do I have more confidence in marine geologists reporting on glacial flooding like Ryan & Pitman
than in verbose claims by Neo-etymologists?

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-17 14:43:44 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks Peter. Why do I have more confidence in marine geologists reporting on glacial flooding like Ryan & Pitman
than in verbose claims by Neo-etymologists?

Because you don't understand scientific method?

Daud Deden

2017-10-17 15:37:12 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks Peter. Why do I have more confidence in marine geologists reporting on glacial flooding like Ryan & Pitman
than in verbose claims by Neo-etymologists?

Because you don't understand scientific method?

...verbose claims by Neo-etymologists...

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-11-22 11:24:58 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks Yusuf, nature trumps imagination every time. I was shocked when I
realized that post-ice-age flooding into the Black Sea 7.7ka (Ryan & Pitman)
verified the tales of Plato's Atlantis & Noah's Ark deluge and the other
oral histories of the region.

Sorry, but hydrogeologists have shown that the Ryan & Pitman flood NEVER HAPPENED.

The rapidty and magnitude is controversial.

This recent article seems to revive it:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025322716302961?via%3Dihub

Peter T. Daniels

2017-11-22 13:01:18 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks Yusuf, nature trumps imagination every time. I was shocked when I
realized that post-ice-age flooding into the Black Sea 7.7ka (Ryan & Pitman)
verified the tales of Plato's Atlantis & Noah's Ark deluge and the other
oral histories of the region.

Sorry, but hydrogeologists have shown that the Ryan & Pitman flood NEVER HAPPENED.

The rapidty and magnitude is controversial.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025322716302961?via%3Dihub

According to the abstract, the flooding went the opposite way from Ryan and Pitman's -- from the Med.
to the Black.

I'll ask Allan Gilbert (convener/editor of the Columbia conference) if he's seen this yet.

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-11-22 14:48:39 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks Yusuf, nature trumps imagination every time. I was shocked when I
realized that post-ice-age flooding into the Black Sea 7.7ka (Ryan &
Pitman) verified the tales of Plato's Atlantis & Noah's Ark deluge and
the other oral histories of the region.

Sorry, but hydrogeologists have shown that the Ryan & Pitman flood NEVER HAPPENED.

The rapidty and magnitude is controversial.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025322716302961?via%3Dihub

According to the abstract, the flooding went the opposite way from Ryan and
Pitman's -- from the Med. to the Black.

? That's how I understand the original scenario was.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'll ask Allan Gilbert (convener/editor of the Columbia conference) if he's seen this yet.

At any rate, there was a rise in sea levels after the Ice Age and it is
reasonable that these are responsible for many flood tales. I think
Noah's Flood was more specifically inspired by the flooding of the
Persian / Arabian Gulf whish was gradual.

Peter T. Daniels

2017-11-22 15:13:56 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks Yusuf, nature trumps imagination every time. I was shocked when I
realized that post-ice-age flooding into the Black Sea 7.7ka (Ryan &
Pitman) verified the tales of Plato's Atlantis & Noah's Ark deluge and
the other oral histories of the region.

Sorry, but hydrogeologists have shown that the Ryan & Pitman flood NEVER HAPPENED.

The rapidty and magnitude is controversial.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025322716302961?via%3Dihub

According to the abstract, the flooding went the opposite way from Ryan and
Pitman's -- from the Med. to the Black.

? That's how I understand the original scenario was.

I see I misremembered.

http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp098_book_reviews.pdf

(pp. 1-3)

Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'll ask Allan Gilbert (convener/editor of the Columbia conference) if he's
seen this yet.

Daud Deden

2017-11-22 16:55:35 UTC

Peter, thanks for the link, I look forward to reading the whole thing over the Thanksgiving holidays.

I did see a good one:

"we may choose: "Tocharian lip- 'iibrigbleiben' & left over], lyipar 'Rest' [remnant] seems
to be a peculiarity shared with Germanic 'leave' (eleven, twelve, etc.), against Latin linquo,
Lithuanian liekii, etc." (338);21 or, from a long list of derivations from *dhegwh- 'burn7, only
Latin, Irish, and Tocharian B have senses of 'bodily malaise', presumably by way of 'fever'."

Wow, that ties together s.h.abbat.h/syaduof/duffle, demam/temo/temper, elephant/damre/gajah, a.ten.gri/tian/zion/thiop/heofan/heaven and much more. Mucho gracias!

Daud Deden

2017-11-22 16:10:15 UTC

Yusuf: "I think Noah's Flood was more specifically inspired by the flooding of the Persian / Arabian Gulf whish was gradual"

Yes, many others have claimed that. I reject it totally, there is simply too much evidence pointing to the Black Sea as the specific original source, with later localized socio-political editing to make the story more suitable for later generations. Also, mistranslations have caused confusion, such as the claim that Utnapishtim's ark was a cube, rather than a cup/qufa/qupharigolu/coracle or that Noah's ark was a long linear ship rather than a cup/qufa/qupharigolu/coracle, like Herakles/Hercules' "cup" & Jason & his Ar(i)go(lu). These are typical paleo-stories, generously overformed.

DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

Peter T. Daniels

2017-11-22 18:34:24 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Yusuf: "I think Noah's Flood was more specifically inspired by the flooding of the Persian / Arabian Gulf whish was gradual"
Yes, many others have claimed that. I reject it totally, there is simply too much evidence pointing to the Black Sea as the specific original source,

There is no evidence whatsoever pointing to that event or any other specific
event of flooding that can have inspired Flood myths around the world. Floods
are a natural phenomenon. They happen. They happen just about everywhere.

Post by Daud Deden
with later localized socio-political editing to make the story more suitable for later generations. Also, mistranslations have caused confusion, such as the claim that Utnapishtim's ark was a cube, rather than a cup/qufa/qupharigolu/coracle or that Noah's ark was a long linear ship rather than a cup/qufa/qupharigolu/coracle, like Herakles/Hercules' "cup" & Jason & his Ar(i)go(lu). These are typical paleo-stories, generously overformed.
DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

The recently discovered "Ark Tablet" explicated by my friend Irving Finkel and
Noah's Ark as described in Genesis are NOT remotely similar in shape.

Daud Deden

2017-11-22 20:33:23 UTC

The recently discovered "Ark Tablet" explicated by my friend Irving Finkel and
Noah's Ark as described in Genesis are NOT remotely similar in shape.

Irving L. Finkel: “I can’t imagine somebody will find something that proves my ideas wrong, so if people reject them it doesn’t matter. People often reject things they don’t like and not necessarily on logical grounds."

I empathically agree with Irving Finkel. And I stand upon my earlier words.

Peter T. Daniels

2017-11-22 21:10:53 UTC

The recently discovered "Ark Tablet" explicated by my friend Irving Finkel and
Noah's Ark as described in Genesis are NOT remotely similar in shape.

Where did you find that?

I caution you, he has a rather droll sense of humor and is superb at putting
people on who are disarmed by the English Don manner and the immense white beard.
(Which used to be red and goat-style, never so small as a goatee.)

But that anyone will find some other cuneiform description of Utnapishtim's
watercraft is indeed unlikely in the extreme.

Post by Daud Deden
I empathically agree with Irving Finkel. And I stand upon my earlier words.

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-11-22 20:44:37 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Yusuf: "I think Noah's Flood was more specifically inspired by the flooding
of the Persian / Arabian Gulf whish was gradual"
Yes, many others have claimed that. I reject it totally, there is simply too
much evidence pointing to the Black Sea as the specific original source,

I suspect that the Sumerian myth may have been connected with the
flooding of the Persian / Arabian Gulf (in Turkish it is called the
Gulf of Basra). Some locate "Eden" there and the area has myths
connecting it with eternal youth etc. There is no hard evidence but why
should one rule out that it is NOT connected. IMO it remains an
onteresting hypothsis.

Post by Daud Deden
with later localized socio-political editing to make the story more suitable
for later generations. Also, mistranslations have caused confusion, such as
the claim that Utnapishtim's ark was a cube, rather than a
cup/qufa/qupharigolu/coracle or that Noah's ark was a long linear ship
rather than a cup/qufa/qupharigolu/coracle, like Herakles/Hercules' "cup" &
Jason & his Ar(i)go(lu). These are typical paleo-stories, generously
overformed.
DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

The recently discovered "Ark Tablet" explicated by my friend Irving Finkel
and Noah's Ark as described in Genesis are NOT remotely similar in shape.

I gather he supports a roundboat, a quffa.

Peter T. Daniels

2017-11-22 19:05:30 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks Yusuf, nature trumps imagination every time. I was shocked when I
realized that post-ice-age flooding into the Black Sea 7.7ka (Ryan & Pitman)
verified the tales of Plato's Atlantis & Noah's Ark deluge and the other
oral histories of the region.

Sorry, but hydrogeologists have shown that the Ryan & Pitman flood NEVER HAPPENED.

The rapidty and magnitude is controversial.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025322716302961?via%3Dihub

According to the abstract, the flooding went the opposite way from Ryan and Pitman's -- from the Med.
to the Black.
I'll ask Allan Gilbert (convener/editor of the Columbia conference) if he's seen this yet.

And here's his reply:

"Thanks, Peter. No same flood, just differing interpretations of how it transpired. The people I have worked with think it was no flood but a gradual sea-level rise over 10,000 years in the late Pleistocene that oscillated as it rose, while the folks of this paper want a more drastic and abrupt rise from 120 m below present sea level at the start of the Holocene. My group says brackish water, their group says freshwater. It's been a similar controversy since the mid 1990s, so it's really been dueling interpretations of evidence all along.

"Happy Thanksgiving."

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-11-22 19:40:20 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks Yusuf, nature trumps imagination every time. I was shocked when I
realized that post-ice-age flooding into the Black Sea 7.7ka (Ryan &
Pitman) verified the tales of Plato's Atlantis & Noah's Ark deluge and
the other oral histories of the region.

Sorry, but hydrogeologists have shown that the Ryan & Pitman flood NEVER HAPPENED.

The rapidty and magnitude is controversial.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025322716302961?via%3Dihub

According to the abstract, the flooding went the opposite way from Ryan and
Pitman's -- from the Med. to the Black.
I'll ask Allan Gilbert (convener/editor of the Columbia conference) if he's
seen this yet.

From that I gather "ongoing controvercy". No definite answer and I am
not qualified to give an opinion one way or the other.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Thanks, Peter. No same flood, just differing interpretations of how it
transpired. The people I have worked with think it was no flood but a
gradual sea-level rise over 10,000 years in the late Pleistocene that
oscillated as it rose, while the folks of this paper want a more drastic and
abrupt rise from 120 m below present sea level at the start of the Holocene.
My group says brackish water, their group says freshwater. It's been a
similar controversy since the mid 1990s, so it's really been dueling
interpretations of evidence all along.
"Happy Thanksgiving."

Daud Deden

2017-11-22 21:30:54 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks Yusuf, nature trumps imagination every time. I was shocked when I
realized that post-ice-age flooding into the Black Sea 7.7ka (Ryan & Pitman)
verified the tales of Plato's Atlantis & Noah's Ark deluge and the other
oral histories of the region.

Sorry, but hydrogeologists have shown that the Ryan & Pitman flood NEVER
HAPPENED.

The rapidty and magnitude is controversial.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025322716302961?via%3Dihub

According to the abstract, the flooding went the opposite way from Ryan and Pitman's -- from the Med.
to the Black.
I'll ask Allan Gilbert (convener/editor of the Columbia conference) if he's seen this yet.

"Thanks, Peter. No same flood, just differing interpretations of how it transpired. The people I have worked with think it was no flood but a gradual sea-level rise over 10,000 years in the late Pleistocene that oscillated as it rose, while the folks of this paper want a more drastic and abrupt rise from 120 m below present sea level at the start of the Holocene. My group says brackish water, their group says freshwater. It's been a similar controversy since the mid 1990s, so it's really been dueling interpretations of evidence all along.
"Happy Thanksgiving."

A hopeful blessing for the forum.

Although I am not criticizing the first groups' idea of a 10k gradual rise directly, I don't think the historical bidirectional flow of the Bosphorus strait supports it, while I think it supports a 'drastic' deluge.

A reminder, in modern science, controversy often drives research & research funding.
(I have done lacustrine & riparian hydrological work, but not in this area.)

Daud Deden

2017-11-22 14:28:00 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks Yusuf, nature trumps imagination every time. I was shocked when I
realized that post-ice-age flooding into the Black Sea 7.7ka (Ryan & Pitman)
verified the tales of Plato's Atlantis & Noah's Ark deluge and the other
oral histories of the region.

Sorry, but hydrogeologists have shown that the Ryan & Pitman flood NEVER HAPPENED.

The rapidty and magnitude is controversial.

This recent article seems to revive it:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025322716302961?via%3Dihub

Thanks Yusuf. There is also the 7.7ka V88 people who moved from eDeN (Danube-Dnieper-Dniester-Donetz) to Lake Chad, taking wives & B. indica cattle from the Sudan, and bringing their farming neighbor's (Balkan Vinca) zodiac-calender-alphabet, IMO, along with other dispersals away from the Black Sea freshwater oasis in relation to the Atlanti(c/s) marine incursion.

Peter T. Daniels

2017-11-22 15:05:39 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Thanks Yusuf, nature trumps imagination every time. I was shocked when I
realized that post-ice-age flooding into the Black Sea 7.7ka (Ryan & Pitman)
verified the tales of Plato's Atlantis & Noah's Ark deluge and the other
oral histories of the region.

Sorry, but hydrogeologists have shown that the Ryan & Pitman flood NEVER HAPPENED.

The rapidty and magnitude is controversial.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025322716302961?via%3Dihub
Thanks Yusuf. There is also the 7.7ka V88 people who moved from eDeN (Danube-Dnieper-Dniester-Donetz) to Lake Chad, taking wives & B. indica cattle from the Sudan, and bringing their farming neighbor's (Balkan Vinca) zodiac-calender-alphabet, IMO, along with other dispersals away from the Black Sea freshwater oasis in relation to the Atlanti(c/s) marine incursion.

Do you have some evidence that the Vinca glyphs were an alphabet? That would be interesting.

Daud Deden

2017-11-22 15:18:53 UTC

Sorry, Peter, IT NEVER HAPPENED.

b***@ihug.co.nz

2017-10-12 02:39:01 UTC

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain the
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

She's interested, though cautious about what Woudhuizen and Zangger may
make of it. Assuming the possibility of forgery can be ruled out, there
is still the problem of it being a copy of a copy, copied by people who
couldn't actually read the language.

Antonio Marques

2017-10-12 09:30:08 UTC

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain the
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

Well, that's how a lot of review is done these days!

Arnaud Fournet

2017-10-11 20:41:02 UTC

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain the
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

Personally, I'm not ready to trust the generally quite erratic theories of Woudhuizen.
A.

Tilde

2017-10-14 02:56:09 UTC

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain the
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

livescience is ok, lots of ads, don't like to look at their pages. This
one is a little better

http://www.sci-news.com/archaeology/luwian-hieroglyphic-inscription-sea-people-05314.html

A team of researchers from Switzerland and the Netherlands has
rediscovered and deciphered a 95-foot (29 m) long Luwian inscription found
in the late 19th century on a limestone frieze in western Turkey.

The 14-inch (35 cm) tall limestone frieze was originally found in 1878 in
the village of Beyköy, about 21 miles (34 km) north of Afyonkarahisar in
modern Turkey, and contained the longest known hieroglyphic inscription
from the Bronze Age.

At the time, the French archaeologist Georges Perrot was able to carefully
copy the inscription. Subsequently, peasants used this priceless stone to
build the foundations of a mosque.

Copies of the inscription were recently found in the estate of the English
historian James Mellaart.

In June 2017, Mellaart’s son Alan handed over this part of the legacy to
Dr. Eberhard Zangger, President of the Luwian Studies, an independent,
private, non-profit foundation based in Switzerland.

The academic publication of the inscription will appear in the December
2017 issue of TALANTA, the Proceedings of the Dutch Archaeological and
Historical Society.

The inscription and a summary of its contents also appear in a book titled
‘Die Luwier und der Trojanische Krieg — Eine Forschungsgeschichte’ by Dr.
Zangger.

https://luwianstudies.org/

http://www.talanta.nl/
TALANTA – Proceedings of the Dutch Archaeological and Historical Society

Italo

2017-10-14 12:53:53 UTC

Post by Tilde

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain the
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

I could find only one mention of Beyköy by Perrot, but there he refers to Ramsay :
page 24: "Professor Ramsay, in a letter to the Athenceum, dated December 27, 1884, thus describes the one specimen he was able to
examine with some care : " The tumulus is bounded by a circle of square blocks, half imbedded in the ground, which have fallen from the
top and sides of the mound. I was informed by a native that one of the stones had graven characters upon it, and with the help of four
villagers, a pickaxe, and wooden poles to serve as levers, we succeeded in setting up the block, when it turned out that the signs were akin to
the hieroglyphs of Cappadocia." 2 The tumulus in question is south of the village of Bey Keui, in the pass marked 28 in the map. The finding
of Hittite characters in the bowels of a tumulus might be taken as conclusive evidence that cognate monuments met with in Phrygia are
anterior to the time when its inhabitants elaborated an alphabet which they derived from the Phoenician." "2 RAMSAY, Athenaum, p. 884. It
seems strange that the author should never have published the inscription."
https://ia902708.us.archive.org/32/items/historyartinphry00perriala/historyartinphry00perriala.pdf

Ramsay:
p.23 "In 1884, while encamped at Demirli (1-*- miles north of the Lion-tombs), we heard a curious tale about a black stone covered with writing
which had once been dug out of a mound at Bey Keui. We went there and succeeded in finding a man who had seen the stone. The mound, which is
about a mile south of Bey Keui, on the left bank of a stream, is clearly artificial; and we hired four workmen, whose labour for a whole day disclosed
the stone, on which there is a short inscription in the Syro-Cappadocian ' Hittite') hieroglyphics."
p.14: "Hogarth and I went to try to dig a second hieroglyphic inscription out of the mound south of Bey Keui,1 while Brown went off to dig under the lion's head.
The former task proved unsuccessful"
http://www.tpsalomonreinach.mom.fr/Reinach/MOM_TP_071834/MOM_TP_071834_0002/PDF/MOM_TP_071834_0002.pdf

http://digitalcollections.library.ku.edu.tr/cdm/compoundobject/collection/GHC/id/778/rec/1
"Drawings of the hieroglyphic Luwian inscription with a fragment on the sculpture as a piece of large block excavated in 1884 by W. M. Ramsay"

So, Ramsay seems to've found only this single piece of stone.

Post by Tilde
Copies of the inscription were recently found in the estate of the English
historian James Mellaart.
In June 2017, Mellaart’s son Alan handed over this part of the legacy to
Dr. Eberhard Zangger, President of the Luwian Studies, an independent,
private, non-profit foundation based in Switzerland.
The academic publication of the inscription will appear in the December
2017 issue of TALANTA, the Proceedings of the Dutch Archaeological and
Historical Society.
The inscription and a summary of its contents also appear in a book titled
‘Die Luwier und der Trojanische Krieg — Eine Forschungsgeschichte’ by Dr.
Zangger.

Of all people, why did they choose that crackpot to publish it?
Would be more interesting to hear what, say, J.D.Hawkins thinks of it.

(cf http://b-ok.org/s/?q=luwian )

Post by Tilde
https://luwianstudies.org/
http://www.talanta.nl/
TALANTA – Proceedings of the Dutch Archaeological and Historical Society

--
b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-10-14 07:21:17 UTC

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain the
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

Eberhard Zangger wrote a book on the Luwians and the Trojan War (German
version Orell Füssli Zürich 2017, maybe an English version will follow),
based on the Beyköy inscription, a frieze nearly thirty meters long,
thirty centimeters high. Beyköy is a village in Central West Anatolia,
north of modern Afyon. The inscription was carefully copied before the
stones were used for the foundament of the Beyköy mosque in 1878. James
Mellaart made a copy of the copy. The great archaeologist was convinced
that the inscription is genuine. Among his unpublished papers was found
a translation by Albrecht Götze. Here the opening lines by Great King
Kupantu-Kuruntas who ordered the inscription in 1180 BC

Thus (speaks) the Great King, Kupanta-Kuruntas, the hero, king
of the land of Mira, the son of Asuwantis, king of the land
of Arzawa, son of Manapa-Kuruntas, king of the land of Arzawa,
the son of Piyama-Kuruntas, king of the land of Arzawa, the
son of Uhaxitis, king of the land of Arzawa, the son of Amza-
Pahadus, king of the land of Arzawa, the son of Kupanta-Kuruntas,
king of Arzawa, my forebear.

Dramatic stories follow. Many names of the inscription appeared in genuine
documents that were discovered later on and were not known in 1878, so
a forger could not have known them. This convinced Mellaart and Woudhuizen
of the Beyköy inscription being genuine.

Eberhard Zangger uses it in order to shed new light on the role of West
Anatolia at the end of the Aegaean Bronze Age.

Italo

2017-10-14 13:29:38 UTC

Post by Antonio Marques
Do you folks know anything about this? I haven't been able to ascertain the
https://www.livescience.com/60629-ancient-inscription-trojan-prince-sea-people.html

assuwanza

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
of Arzawa, son of Manapa-Kuruntas, king of the land of Arzawa,
the son of Piyama-Kuruntas, king of the land of Arzawa, the
son of Uhaxitis,

Uhhaziti

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
king of the land of Arzawa, the son of Amza-Pahadus,

Anzapahhaddu

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
king of the land of Arzawa, the son of Kupanta-Kuruntas,
king of Arzawa, my forebear.

Is it Goetze's translation ?

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Dramatic stories follow. Many names of the inscription appeared in genuine
documents that were discovered later on and were not known in 1878, so
a forger could not have known them. This convinced Mellaart and Woudhuizen
of the Beyköy inscription being genuine.

How do you know if the drawing is from 1878 ? Goetze lived until 1971.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Eberhard Zangger uses it in order to shed new light on the role of West
Anatolia at the end of the Aegaean Bronze Age.

--
b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-10-16 06:39:17 UTC

Post by Italo
Is it Goetze's translation ?

Goetze translated the three large bronze tables found by farmers near
a mansion at Beyköy (see my previous message from this morning) half
a century ago. I quoted the first eight lines from page one.

Post by Italo
How do you know if the drawing is from 1878 ? Goetze lived until 1971.

Zangger calls the three bronze tables Beyköy-text (Hittite, cuneiform signs)
while the stone frieze is a different inscription (Luwian hieroglyphs).
The latter was broken and used for the foundament of the Beyköy mosque
built in 1878. The French archaeologist Georges Perrot copied the fragments
of the frieze, in or shortly before 1878. Both the Beyköy bronze text in the
translation of Goetze and the Beyköy stone text in the drawings of Perrot
and further Luwian papers collected by James Mellaart were inherited by
Eberhard Zangger who gave them to the foundation Luwian Studies he presides
over. That foundation is in my hometown of Zurich. Maybe I visit them and
ask EZ why he made a confusion of the stone text and bronze text in his
book, and why he does not explain how a very long text can find place on
three bronze tables.

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-16 11:24:15 UTC

Post by Italo
Is it Goetze's translation ?

Post by Italo
How do you know if the drawing is from 1878 ? Goetze lived until 1971.

How could anything from the Nachlass of Albrecht Goetze, who was a professor at Yale,
in Connecticut, USA, for more than 35 years, have come into the private possession of an
individual in Switzerland? The story is highly improbable on that ground alone, as well as
on the ground of "bronze tablets."

Italo

2017-10-16 19:02:45 UTC

Post by Italo
Is it Goetze's translation ?

Post by Italo
How do you know if the drawing is from 1878 ? Goetze lived until 1971.

He is "President of the board of Luwian Studies" but mr.president cannot actually understand Luwian, he needs Woudhuizen for that.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
That foundation is in my hometown of Zurich. Maybe I visit them and
ask EZ why he made a confusion of the stone text and bronze text in his
book, and why he does not explain how a very long text can find place on
three bronze tables.

I suppose Goetze sent Mellaart a preliminary translation. Mellaart may've thought that Goetze's successors at Yale were just a bit slow, and didn't want to spoil the official publication.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
The story is highly improbable on that ground alone, as well as
on the ground of "bronze tablets."

In 1986 a large (35 x 24cm, 325 lines) bronze tablet was found at Hattusa, it is known as the "Bronze tablet"..

Anyway, missing artefacts have no high priority in Turkey. Take the robbing of the tomb of Hekatomnos, suspects were arrested immediately, and meanwhile the tomb is being turned into a tourist attraction, but still nothing about the loot. (to me the Hekatomnids represents a rare continuity beyond the dark ages, as the name Maussolos suggests relation to Mashuiluwa the king of Mira)

--
b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-10-17 07:39:55 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
How could anything from the Nachlass of Albrecht Goetze, who was a professor at Yale,
in Connecticut, USA, for more than 35 years, have come into the private possession of an
individual in Switzerland? The story is highly improbable on that ground alone, as well as
on the ground of "bronze tablets."

The Goetze paper was in the possession of James Mellaart who announced
a publication several times, but it never happened. When Eberhard Zangger
almost finished his book, Alan Mellaart, son of James, invited him over
and gave him the Luwian papers Mellaart had collected. I began reading
the book on the weekend, feeling cosy and comfortable, and suddenly
three elephants appeared before my window: three large bronze tables with
a very long text! If they exist, a picture belongs on the cover of the book,
and they deserve a detailed description, for they'd be a great sensation.
Yesterday I was on the brink of sending EZ an e-mail to the foundation
of Luwian Studies in my hometwon of Zurich (google for "luwian studies"
zurich for the website and e-mail address) but decided to go for a more
creative task, an etymology of Luwi / Luwian that will appear in my
Magdalenian thread, hopefully this morning.

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-17 13:48:02 UTC

Yes, far be it to allow facts to interfere with fantasy.

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-10-18 06:53:48 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The Goetze paper was in the possession of James Mellaart who announced
a publication several times, but it never happened. When Eberhard Zangger
almost finished his book, Alan Mellaart, son of James, invited him over
and gave him the Luwian papers Mellaart had collected. I began reading
the book on the weekend, feeling cosy and comfortable, and suddenly
three elephants appeared before my window: three large bronze tables with
a very long text! If they exist, a picture belongs on the cover of the book,
and they deserve a detailed description, for they'd be a great sensation.
Yesterday I was on the brink of sending EZ an e-mail to the foundation
of Luwian Studies in my hometwon of Zurich (google for "luwian studies"
zurich for the website and e-mail address) but decided to go for a more
creative task, an etymology of Luwi / Luwian that will appear in my
Magdalenian thread, hopefully this morning.

A pair of inscriptions of such importance that disappeared completely
is too much for me

Beyköy, stone inscription, 1180 BC, Luwian hieroglyphs; a translation
must exist, for for Eberhard Zangger gives a summary and speaks of
50 lines - why didn't he include the brief translation in the book?

Beyköy, three large bronze tables, ordered in 1180 BC, inscribed in
1170 BC with later additions, Hittite cuneiform signs; translation
by Albrecht Goetze at Yale (no specification given) 'half a century
ago', typoscript 67 pages, an estimated 3,000 - 4,000 lines of the
English translation

In my opinion, complete PDF versions of the two translations should have
gone online together with the publication of the book. This can still be
done, within a week, and will give them time enough for a careful print
version with comments and added material.

When I work on a topic, and when my research is advanced enough, I write
a story or fable or even fairy tale (but say so in the title, and sometimes
include humoristic elements and deliberate anachronisms for markers).
What if Goetze did the same, inventing a short inscription followed by
a long one, compiling what he knew and thought about West Anatolia in the
Bronze Age? whereupon Mellaart inherited his literary experiment and turned
it into a hoax by inventing a story how the alleged inscriptions disappeared?
and then Eberhard Zangger was chosen to spread the hoax? He should not only
promise a quick publication but actually do it. As I said, it can be done
within a week.

I am tired of hypes in archaeology. Recent examples are the alleged tomb
of Nefertiti behind the one of Tutenkhamun, and the Pyramid Scan Project.
Big tamtam then nothing. Late Klaus Schmidt, excavator of the Göbekli Tepe,
showed what he and his team discovered. My enthusiasm goes for that project.

The great Russian mathematician Grigori Perelman published his epochal proof
of Kepler's conjecture online, not caring at all about a print version in
a journal - quick and clean and honest. He even declined the Fields medal
(equivalent of a Nobel prize) because his reward lies in the successful work
itself.

(will forward this message to info (a) luwianstudies.org )

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-18 12:26:36 UTC

That seems quite absurd. The entire Epic of Gilgamesh, on 12 tablets (which we
don't have in their entirety) doesn't amount to that length.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
In my opinion, complete PDF versions of the two translations should have
gone online together with the publication of the book. This can still be
done, within a week, and will give them time enough for a careful print
version with comments and added material.

I suspect you have no understanding whatsoever of the difficulties involved in
translating an ancient text even in a very well known language such as Akkadian.
Luvian is not as well known even as Hittite, and Hittite is far from fully
interpretable

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
When I work on a topic, and when my research is advanced enough, I write
a story or fable or even fairy tale (but say so in the title, and sometimes
include humoristic elements and deliberate anachronisms for markers).
What if Goetze did the same, inventing a short inscription followed by
a long one, compiling what he knew and thought about West Anatolia in the
Bronze Age?

Goetze was a scholar, not a fabulist.

Schleicher, I think it was, composed a "fable" in his version of Proto-Indo-
European in the mid 1860s. He was ridiculed at the time for the attempt --
and still is.

A century later (this was reported to me by Erica Reiner), at a meeting of the
American Oriental Society a graduate student offered a hypothetical sentence
in Sumerian. From the audience, Benno Landsberger, universally recognized as
the first and greatest scholar of Sumerian of his day, arose and said, "If _I_
am not willing to invent a sentence in Sumerian, who are you to do so?"

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
whereupon Mellaart inherited his literary experiment and turned
it into a hoax by inventing a story how the alleged inscriptions disappeared?
and then Eberhard Zangger was chosen to spread the hoax? He should not only
promise a quick publication but actually do it. As I said, it can be done
within a week.
I am tired of hypes in archaeology. Recent examples are the alleged tomb
of Nefertiti behind the one of Tutenkhamun, and the Pyramid Scan Project.
Big tamtam then nothing. Late Klaus Schmidt, excavator of the Göbekli Tepe,
showed what he and his team discovered. My enthusiasm goes for that project.

Happily, Goetze was not an archeologist. I don't know anything of Mellaart's
reputation, but the archeologists I used to work alongside every day at the
Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago were not given to sensationalizing
their findings.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The great Russian mathematician Grigori Perelman published his epochal proof
of Kepler's conjecture online, not caring at all about a print version in
a journal - quick and clean and honest. He even declined the Fields medal
(equivalent of a Nobel prize) because his reward lies in the successful work
itself.
(will forward this message to info (a) luwianstudies.org )

Are they interested in "Kepler's Conjecture"?

Daud Deden

2017-10-18 13:45:37 UTC

Franz, did you have the presence of mind to scrape a bit off of the bronze tablets that appeared before you? They could be tested to find if the tin came from the Kestrel mine.

Arnaud Fournet

2017-10-18 20:37:45 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Franz, did you have the presence of mind to scrape a bit off of the bronze tablets that appeared before you? They could be tested to find if the tin came from the Kestrel mine.

Franz, don't care about what DD writes. Just keep going. He's a jerk.
A.

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-10-19 07:39:10 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
That seems quite absurd. The entire Epic of Gilgamesh, on 12 tablets (which we
don't have in their entirety) doesn't amount to that length.

As I said right from the beginning. Either the three alleged bronze tables
are enormous, or then they have been so densley packed with cuneiform signs
as a clay table from Ebla, five cuneiform signs per square centimeter.
By the way, cuneiform signs have also been 'scratched' on metals, bronze
tables are therefore not to be excluded right from the beginning.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Goetze was a scholar, not a fabulist.

Telling what one knows and thinks in a fable makes a difficult topic more
easily understandable, and as long as it is marked as such, as a literary
experiment, legitimate. Zangger's argument is that Mellaart knew neither
Luwian hieroglyphs nor Hittite cuneiform signs and therefor can't be a faker.
I point out another (faint) possibility: he could have turned literary
experiments by Goetze (highly hypothetical) into a hoax. Having been tricked
as a young archaeologist by a ring of antiquity dealers and his image
destroyed by the ensuing scandal, he had a considerable anger, and hated
his detractors who doubted his hypothesis that a Luwian culture between
Mycenae in the west and Hattusas in the east played a major role that is
almost entirely ignored and deliberately suppressed. Among the papers
EZ inherited from James Mellaart via this one's son Alan Mellaart was
a note fixed to a paper, a Gaelic curse: May your (the detractor's) names
be remembered as well as the dung of your sheep. He could have reasons for
a hoax, and, technically, didn't really start it, for he never published
the Goetze paper. The Kensington Runestone was big on sci.archaeology in
the late 1990s, in my opinion a serious hoax by a Norwegian mason, the faker
speaking:

Certainly the Vikings discovered America and settled in Minnesota.
Let me fake a runestone, hide it somewhere and have it found.
Will release a runestone mania, farmers will search for further
specimens in their fields, and thus find the genuine runestones,
and if my ruse works and the truth comes to light I will be forgiven.

If Mellaart had a similar strategy in mind, having his hypothesis proved
via an analogous ruse, it halfway succeeded (contrary to the Kensington
case). A heavy allegation that is best countered by going online with
both alledged Beyköy inscriptions and inviting scholars from all over
the world to discuss them. Stalling tactics are an element and hallmark
of hypes in archaeology. If someone relies on material he has at his
disposal but holds it back my enthusiasm evaporates. I will keep the book
by Eberhard Zangger, for it is brimful with information, and the basic
hypothesis of Mellaart and Zanger is sound. But I hate stalling tactics.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Schleicher, I think it was, composed a "fable" in his version of Proto-Indo-
European in the mid 1860s. He was ridiculed at the time for the attempt --
and still is.
A century later (this was reported to me by Erica Reiner), at a meeting of the
American Oriental Society a graduate student offered a hypothetical sentence
in Sumerian. From the audience, Benno Landsberger, universally recognized as
the first and greatest scholar of Sumerian of his day, arose and said, "If _I_
am not willing to invent a sentence in Sumerian, who are you to do so?"

Are they interested in "Kepler's Conjecture"?

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-10-20 07:14:40 UTC

I tried to make a case against the authenticity of the Beyköy inscriptions
but failed. They are so rich in detail that not even the most renowned expert
could have compiled them in an experiment of literary immersion. But I remain
cautious, disappointed by the recent hypes in Egyptology.

Eberhard Zangger reproaches Arthur Evans for having held back the Linear B
tablets for 40 years in the hope of deciphering them himself, and complains
that the Beyköy inscriptions were left unpublished for more than 140 years.
Now he has the opportunity of placing them online, telles quelles, in PDF,
within a week, bypassing the academic snail trail.

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-10-21 07:38:20 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I tried to make a case against the authenticity of the Beyköy inscriptions
but failed. They are so rich in detail that not even the most renowned expert
could have compiled them in an experiment of literary immersion. But I remain
cautious, disappointed by the recent hypes in Egyptology.
Eberhard Zangger reproaches Arthur Evans for having held back the Linear B
tablets for 40 years in the hope of deciphering them himself, and complains
that the Beyköy inscriptions were left unpublished for more than 140 years.
Now he has the opportunity of placing them online, telles quelles, in PDF,
within a week, bypassing the academic snail trail.

Eberhard Zangger, in his recent book on the Luwians and the Trojan War,
calls the Iliad and Odyssey 'entertaining novels with an occasional
historical pearl'.

In his first book on Atlantis he provided the key for my hermeneutic reading
of the Odyssey: the hero's dramatic arrival at the Phaeacian shore (pleasant
Scherie) is a time travel to an early Troy, and when the blind seer Daemodokos
'Teacher of People' (fore)tells the fall of Troy, Odysseus recognizes where
he is and what a lovely place he destroyed (or will destroy in the time
perspective of the Phaeacians) and can't help weeping.

Zangger could have gone further from here. Instead he called the other
adventures of Odysseus and his men 'sailor's yarn'. So I took over.

Odysseus returned home and sleeps on the beach. A long series of dreams
bring him back to Troy - Troy in disguise, and blended with other places
and periods of time.

First he encounters Polyphem 'Much Famous' who resembles more a wooded
mountain top than a man who eats bread - in my opinion the most imposing
though subjective symbol of Troy, his one eye the acropolis overlooking
the wide river plain, his body downtown Troy VIIa that provided protected
shelter for 5,000 to 10,000 people, his cave the harbor on the Besik Bay,
his goats and sheep foreign ships waiting for favorable winds, their milk
high fees and tributes the sailors had to pay, while the Achaean ships
are symbolized by horses, the Achaean harbor lying north of the citadel,
near the rivers mouthing into the Dardanelles and the swamps that caused
the malaria episode reported in the Iliad. And the cause of the Trojan
war? Beautiful Helen of the white arms, Homeric personification of tin
- there is no tin in Greece, the Mycenaean tin came from Central Asia
and was bound to pass the Dardanelles where the Trojans laid hands on
the precious cargo, abducting Helen, as it were.

Now Eberhard Zangger reports that Woudhuizen considers a lapis lazuli scepter
found at Troy the symbol of tin trade with Afghanistan, and that Frank Kolb
contests Korfmann's wooden model of downtown Troy: the settlements for the
commoners were removed from the acropolis, which yould make Troy even bigger,
a true giant, and expose his one eye in a dramatic manner (see the drawing
of such an acropolis in the book by Zangger).

Next time: getting in conflict with Woudhuizen and Zangger over the Phaistos
Disc

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-10-23 07:53:13 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Eberhard Zangger, in his recent book on the Luwians and the Trojan War,
calls the Iliad and Odyssey 'entertaining novels with an occasional
historical pearl'.
In his first book on Atlantis he provided the key for my hermeneutic reading
of the Odyssey: the hero's dramatic arrival at the Phaeacian shore (pleasant
Scherie) is a time travel to an early Troy, and when the blind seer Daemodokos
'Teacher of People' (fore)tells the fall of Troy, Odysseus recognizes where
he is and what a lovely place he destroyed (or will destroy in the time
perspective of the Phaeacians) and can't help weeping.
Zangger could have gone further from here. Instead he called the other
adventures of Odysseus and his men 'sailor's yarn'. So I took over.
Odysseus returned home and sleeps on the beach. A long series of dreams
bring him back to Troy - Troy in disguise, and blended with other places
and periods of time.
First he encounters Polyphem 'Much Famous' who resembles more a wooded
mountain top than a man who eats bread - in my opinion the most imposing
though subjective symbol of Troy, his one eye the acropolis overlooking
the wide river plain, his body downtown Troy VIIa that provided protected
shelter for 5,000 to 10,000 people, his cave the harbor on the Besik Bay,
his goats and sheep foreign ships waiting for favorable winds, their milk
high fees and tributes the sailors had to pay, while the Achaean ships
are symbolized by horses, the Achaean harbor lying north of the citadel,
near the rivers mouthing into the Dardanelles and the swamps that caused
the malaria episode reported in the Iliad. And the cause of the Trojan
war? Beautiful Helen of the white arms, Homeric personification of tin
- there is no tin in Greece, the Mycenaean tin came from Central Asia
and was bound to pass the Dardanelles where the Trojans laid hands on
the precious cargo, abducting Helen, as it were.
Now Eberhard Zangger reports that Woudhuizen considers a lapis lazuli scepter
found at Troy the symbol of tin trade with Afghanistan, and that Frank Kolb
contests Korfmann's wooden model of downtown Troy: the settlements for the
commoners were removed from the acropolis, which yould make Troy even bigger,
a true giant, and expose his one eye in a dramatic manner (see the drawing
of such an acropolis in the book by Zangger).
Next time: getting in conflict with Woudhuizen and Zangger over the Phaistos
Disc

Cyrus H. Gordon identified the language of Linear A as Northwest Semitic.
Jan Best and Robert Stieglitz followed him. Walther Hinz, in their wake,
deciphered Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95. Now I read in Zangger and
online that Jan Best considers _Luwian_ the language of Linear A, got
a patent (!) on the Phaistos Disc being a Luwian letter to Nestor, and
that his disciple Frederik Woudhuizen deciphered the entire Phaistos Disc
as mainly a list of Luwian names in 1984.

Sorry, but the Phaistos Disc was deciphered as an early Greek document by
Derk Ohlenroth in 1980, published 1996. I follow him, although proposing
a different archaeological interpretation - his decipherment reveals more
than he could have read into the disc, so it is a real window on the past,
not just a window painted on the wall.

A young man from Lycosoura learned from the priestesses of Demeter-Elaia
at Phigalia (heirs of Old Europe in the sense of Marija Gimbutas) how
to plant cereals (Demeter was the Greek goddess of agriculture, with an
equivalent in the Roman Ceres, goddess of cereals) and edible olives
(elaia 'olive') and how to care for bees (their importance already known
to Chalcolithic farmers in the Ukraine). Later on he averted a famine
in the Argolis and was appointed king of Tiryns.

He had good friends in the fertile Mesara plain in Southern Crete, among
them a scribe and goldsmith at Phaistos whom he asked for a pair of gold
discs he might wear on his shoulders.

Well, the scribe invented a peculiar alphabet of 46 tiny images for letters,
among them six alphas, allowing him to render a text also as picture.
Then he made a pair of discs, one of them showing Elaia's grove at Phigalia,
the other Tiryns in the Argolis, each disc with a spiral and a ring.

The rosette in the center of the Tiryns disc marked the beginning of
the spiral text, a formula glorifying Eponymous Tiryns, while the second
rosette on the same disc marked the beginning of the ring text along the
margin, a banning formula of archaic power, enforcing the palisade of Tiryns,
warning potential intruders.

The Tiryns disc was a perfect illustration of the CO OC LOP cyclops principle:
attentive mind CO right eye OC enveloping palisade or wall LOP - the ruler
as male profile in the center field, he of the focused mind CO, surrounded
by guards of the open eyes OC who watch the gate and gaze over the enveloping
palisade LOP ... (for comparison consider Polyphem, another cyclops or one-
eyed giant, Homeric symbol of Troy, his 'eye' the acropolis overlooking the
wide river plain, his 'body' downtown Troy VIIa).

Eponymous Tiryns became Lord Laertes the gardener in Homer's Odyssey,
lineage Zeus - Arkeisios - Laertes - Odysseus - Telemachos. Ithaca was
originally the Argolis and Peloponnese, ITA CA Ithaca, young bull ITA
sky CA, under the sky of the young Zeus bull (ATI CA Attica, under the
sky of the mature Zeus bull).

A gold signet ring found in a cache at Tiryns shows Eponymous Tiryns alias
Laertes the gardener and his Middle Helladic successors worshipping Demeter-
Elaia under a rain of grains, between them stylized olive twigs (the same
sign appears on the PhD). The kings parade as lion-wolf-dog-bee men, the
lion indicating royalty, the wolf commemorating Lycosoura, lykos 'wolf',
the dog a watchful guard, and the bee a most industrious insect, indispensable
for agriculture (a sign on the PhD shows a portable beehive). The kings wear
spirals on the shoulders that may indicate the gold discs (the extremely well
crafted magnified spiral has an actual diameter of two millimeters on the ring)

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

The pair of hypothetical gold discs might be hidden in another cache in a not
yet excavated part of the acropolis of Tiryns. While the pair of clay discs
used as models for the gold discs were baked together so they formed one
single disc. It was stored in a cult depot of the Old Placae at Phaistos,
where Luigi Pernier discovered it in 1908.

I won't abandon a marvel of complexity for a list of names. Apparently also
the Beyköy frieze translated by Woudhuizen features mainly names, and would
then be less complex than I thought.

Next time: why doesn't Eberhard Zangger mention that the alleged Beyköy
frieze has a model in the Yalburt frieze and inscription?

Loading Image...

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-23 11:29:48 UTC

Now maybe you'll understand why no serious scholar accepts _any_ decipherment of the Phaistos Disk.
If you study each of the three attempts you mention, you will find that each of them has equally valid
arguments for his position.

António Marques

2017-10-23 11:57:56 UTC

Now maybe you'll understand why no serious scholar accepts _any_
decipherment of the Phaistos Disk.
If you study each of the three attempts you mention, you will find that
each of them has equally valid
arguments for his position.

It's as if you had the equation

x + y + z = 7

and people insisted they had found 'the' value of x.

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-23 12:40:32 UTC

Now maybe you'll understand why no serious scholar accepts _any_
decipherment of the Phaistos Disk.
If you study each of the three attempts you mention, you will find that
each of them has equally valid
arguments for his position.

It's as if you had the equation
x + y + z = 7
and people insisted they had found 'the' value of x.

Except that in the case of the P.D., the terms on the left side range from a
through z and far beyond.

BTW if x, y, and z are different positive integers, isn't there only one solution?

António Marques

2017-10-23 16:18:08 UTC

Now maybe you'll understand why no serious scholar accepts _any_
decipherment of the Phaistos Disk.
If you study each of the three attempts you mention, you will find that
each of them has equally valid
arguments for his position.

It's as if you had the equation
x + y + z = 7
and people insisted they had found 'the' value of x.

Except that in the case of the P.D., the terms on the left side range from a
through z and far beyond.
BTW if x, y, and z are different positive integers, isn't there only one solution?

Ha! Now you're going down the... who was it? 'grapheus'? 's path: his
solution was the one because the greek (?) meaning was interesting. Or was
it Linear A he had a claim on?

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-10-24 06:35:31 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Now maybe you'll understand why no serious scholar accepts _any_ decipherment of the Phaistos Disk.
If you study each of the three attempts you mention, you will find that each of them has equally valid
arguments for his position.

An alphabetic decipherment (Ohlenroth) is a thousand times more difficult
than a syllabic one (Best, Woudhuizen) and a million times more difficult
then an acronomic one (Faucounau alias grapheus alias RoseMarie). Moreover,
the decipherment by Ohlenroth is highly complex, a window on the Argolis
in the Bronze Age. Ohlenroth refers to the Heraclids whereas I came up
with a completely different archaeological and historical and literary
interpretation, based on findings such as the gold signet ring from the
cache at Tiryns, the gold ring from Mokhlos on Crete, and further evidence.
I never heard that Best or Woudhuizen's alleged decipherments worked as
such metaphorical windows. Reading lists of syllabic names into the PhD
is easy, some 3,000 people did that. None of them achieved an alphabetic
decipherment as Ohlenroth did. From your comment I assume that you still
did not lay eyes on the book by Ohlenroth in the New York public library,
although I told you the research room and lending number.

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-10-24 06:19:40 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Cyrus H. Gordon identified the language of Linear A as Northwest Semitic.
Jan Best and Robert Stieglitz followed him. Walther Hinz, in their wake,
deciphered Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95. Now I read in Zangger and
online that Jan Best considers _Luwian_ the language of Linear A, got
a patent (!) on the Phaistos Disc being a Luwian letter to Nestor, and
that his disciple Frederik Woudhuizen deciphered the entire Phaistos Disc
as mainly a list of Luwian names in 1984.
Sorry, but the Phaistos Disc was deciphered as an early Greek document by
Derk Ohlenroth in 1980, published 1996. I follow him, although proposing
a different archaeological interpretation - his decipherment reveals more
than he could have read into the disc, so it is a real window on the past,
not just a window painted on the wall.
A young man from Lycosoura learned from the priestesses of Demeter-Elaia
at Phigalia (heirs of Old Europe in the sense of Marija Gimbutas) how
to plant cereals (Demeter was the Greek goddess of agriculture, with an
equivalent in the Roman Ceres, goddess of cereals) and edible olives
(elaia 'olive') and how to care for bees (their importance already known
to Chalcolithic farmers in the Ukraine). Later on he averted a famine
in the Argolis and was appointed king of Tiryns.
He had good friends in the fertile Mesara plain in Southern Crete, among
them a scribe and goldsmith at Phaistos whom he asked for a pair of gold
discs he might wear on his shoulders.
Well, the scribe invented a peculiar alphabet of 46 tiny images for letters,
among them six alphas, allowing him to render a text also as picture.
Then he made a pair of discs, one of them showing Elaia's grove at Phigalia,
the other Tiryns in the Argolis, each disc with a spiral and a ring.
The rosette in the center of the Tiryns disc marked the beginning of
the spiral text, a formula glorifying Eponymous Tiryns, while the second
rosette on the same disc marked the beginning of the ring text along the
margin, a banning formula of archaic power, enforcing the palisade of Tiryns,
warning potential intruders.
attentive mind CO right eye OC enveloping palisade or wall LOP - the ruler
as male profile in the center field, he of the focused mind CO, surrounded
by guards of the open eyes OC who watch the gate and gaze over the enveloping
palisade LOP ... (for comparison consider Polyphem, another cyclops or one-
eyed giant, Homeric symbol of Troy, his 'eye' the acropolis overlooking the
wide river plain, his 'body' downtown Troy VIIa).
Eponymous Tiryns became Lord Laertes the gardener in Homer's Odyssey,
lineage Zeus - Arkeisios - Laertes - Odysseus - Telemachos. Ithaca was
originally the Argolis and Peloponnese, ITA CA Ithaca, young bull ITA
sky CA, under the sky of the young Zeus bull (ATI CA Attica, under the
sky of the mature Zeus bull).
A gold signet ring found in a cache at Tiryns shows Eponymous Tiryns alias
Laertes the gardener and his Middle Helladic successors worshipping Demeter-
Elaia under a rain of grains, between them stylized olive twigs (the same
sign appears on the PhD). The kings parade as lion-wolf-dog-bee men, the
lion indicating royalty, the wolf commemorating Lycosoura, lykos 'wolf',
the dog a watchful guard, and the bee a most industrious insect, indispensable
for agriculture (a sign on the PhD shows a portable beehive). The kings wear
spirals on the shoulders that may indicate the gold discs (the extremely well
crafted magnified spiral has an actual diameter of two millimeters on the ring)
http://www.seshat.ch/home/ring.gif
http://www.seshat.ch/home/ring2.JPG
The pair of hypothetical gold discs might be hidden in another cache in a not
yet excavated part of the acropolis of Tiryns. While the pair of clay discs
used as models for the gold discs were baked together so they formed one
single disc. It was stored in a cult depot of the Old Placae at Phaistos,
where Luigi Pernier discovered it in 1908.
I won't abandon a marvel of complexity for a list of names. Apparently also
the Beyköy frieze translated by Woudhuizen features mainly names, and would
then be less complex than I thought.
Next time: why doesn't Eberhard Zangger mention that the alleged Beyköy
frieze has a model in the Yalburt frieze and inscription?
https://www.brown.edu/Departments/Joukowsky_Institute/fieldwork/yalburt/files/99017.jpg

My apology, Eberhard Zangger d o e s mention the Yalburt inscription,
using a different name and showing a big partial drawing of the frieze
and pointing out a parallel in the text: Hatti conquered two northern
kingdoms on its last campaign (Yalburt) but was forced to give them back
(Beyköy) - no surprise there, Hatti collapsed and could not keep those
kingdoms, a forger could easily have extrapolated that much. The driver
of a bulldozer discovered the Yalburt frieze in 1970, so if the Beyköy
frieze inscription is a forgery, then a recent one, post 1970. The
arrangement of the Yalburt hieroglyphs is lively, the one of the Beyköy
hieroglyphs dull. A brief online comment asks why the Greeks are not
mentioned. A longer comment by one bethresh raised my doubts again:

Several things about this discovery inspire a lot of caution. In fact, I am firmly in the camp that it is a forgery.
Mellaart, the discovery of the inscription, and its contents
Mellaart was the perpetrator of the well-known "Dorak treasure" hoax
and played fast and loose with his discoveries at Çatalhöyük. He
certainly produced valuable work, but his reputation will always be
linked to shameful scholarly misconduct.
Thanks partially to the bilingual Karatepe inscription (discovered in
1946), several Luwian grammars and sign lists appeared in the 1960s
that built on earlier discoveries, including Laroche's Les Hiéroglyphes Hittites (1960), Meriggi's Hieroglyphisch-hethitisches Glossar (1962), and Meriggi's Manuale di Eteo Geroglifico
(1966-1975). It is true, as Woudhuizen points out, that Luwian was not
well understood until the 1960s/70s, but that certainly does not
preclude the fabrication of a Luwian inscription, particularly if it was
based on real inscriptions like the Yalburt inscription.
The vast majority of the inscription consists of lists of cities and
regions. (In Luwian, a triangle is the determinative URBS, "city," and
two triangles marks the determinative REGIO, "kingdom/territory/region."
Note the long lists of places ending in these determinatives.) Add some
known verbs from other inscriptions and known Hittite and Luwian names
from Hittite texts and seals and boom, you have a forgery.
Paleographically and grammatically, some of the elements of this
inscription are at home in an Iron Age inscription and are not right for
a supposed Bronze Age inscription.
The usurpation of the "Great King" title (REX.MAGNUS) would make this
unique among the western Anatolian hieroglyphic inscriptions; it should
be noted that both Karabel and the digraphic silver seal use the simpler title "king" (REX) for the King of Mira.
Finally, the name and titles of Kupanta-Kurunta as written in this inscription (Ku-pa-tá-CERVUS2
LABARNA MAGNUS.REX; "Kupanta-Kurunta, Labarna, Great King") differ from
the Suratkaya inscription that (probably) records a diminutive of his
name (Ku-pa-ya MAGNUS.REX.FILIUS, "Kupaya, Great Prince"). The Suratkaya inscription was found only recently, in the 2000s.
Publishing and announcement of the discovery
The International Congress of Hittitology just took place (September
2017), and Woudhuizen was present. Why no mention of this text?
Furthermore, why is this being published in the Proceedings of the Dutch
Archaeological and Historical Society rather than the standard journals
in the field like Anatolian Studies or the Journal of Near Eastern
Studies? It would be, after all, a major discovery -- if it were
genuine.
How does this fit what we know about Hittite history?
We know from the Alaksandu treaty from the reign of Muwatalli II that
Kupanta-Kurunta of Mira and Alaksandu of Wilusa were allies, with the
Hittites serving as the overlord enforcing their alliance. Later, King
Alantalli of Mira (probably the son of Kupanta-Kurunta) served as a
witness for the bronze tablet treaty
between the Hittite king Tudhaliya IV and his cousin Kurunta of
Tarhuntassa, indicating Mira was still a loyal Hittite vassal. Still
later, one of the last Anatolian hieroglyphic inscriptions
preserved from the Bronze Age records Hittite military actions against
Masa, Lukka, Wiyanawanda (Greek Oenoanda), and other places in western
Anatolia, but there is no mention of Mira. It is most unlikely that Mira
would arrange a seagoing expedition during the period of the Pax Hethitica,
particularly due to Mycenaean control of much of the western Anatolian
coast and the strong likelihood of an immediate Hittite military
response.
We already knew from the Milawata letter that a king named Walmu was
indeed overthrown from his rule in Wiluša. The Hittite king ordered one
of his western vassals to turn Walmu over to his authority.
Kulana-ziti retained possession of the writing boards which I made
for Walmu, and he has now brought them to you, my son. Examine them!
Now, my son, as long as you look after the well-being of My Majesty, I,
My Majesty, will put my trust in your good will. Turn Walmu over to me,
my son, so that I may reinstall him in kingship in the land of Wiluša.
As he was formerly king of the land of Wiluša, he shall now likewise be!

A claim that the king of Mira controlled Troy is untenable. Indeed,
Mira declined significantly in prestige and power in the latter part of
the Late Bronze Age relative to the Seha River Land.
Too good to be true? Mellaart's claims revisited.
Mellaart briefly mentioned the existence of the inscription in at
least one publication, a book review published in 1992 in the Bulletin
of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society journal. But he never fully
described the inscription in a scientific publication.
In addition to citing the Beyköy text, Mellaart claimed to have found
a letter from the Assyrian king Aššurbanipal to Ardu/Ardys, son of
Gyges of Lydia. Conveniently, the letter happens to list 21 kings of
Arzawa with their regnal years and their synchronisms with the Assyrian
kings. Needless to say, the publication of such a fantastic text never
materialized.

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-10-25 07:24:30 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
My apology, Eberhard Zangger d o e s mention the Yalburt inscription,
using a different name and showing a big partial drawing of the frieze
and pointing out a parallel in the text: Hatti conquered two northern
kingdoms on its last campaign (Yalburt) but was forced to give them back
(Beyköy) - no surprise there, Hatti collapsed and could not keep those
kingdoms, a forger could easily have extrapolated that much. The driver
of a bulldozer discovered the Yalburt frieze in 1970, so if the Beyköy
frieze inscription is a forgery, then a recent one, post 1970. The
arrangement of the Yalburt hieroglyphs is lively, the one of the Beyköy
hieroglyphs dull. A brief online comment asks why the Greeks are not
Several things about this discovery inspire a lot of caution. In fact, I am firmly in the camp that it is a forgery.
Mellaart, the discovery of the inscription, and its contents
Mellaart was the perpetrator of the well-known "Dorak treasure" hoax
and played fast and loose with his discoveries at Çatalhöyük. He
certainly produced valuable work, but his reputation will always be
linked to shameful scholarly misconduct.
Thanks partially to the bilingual Karatepe inscription (discovered in
1946), several Luwian grammars and sign lists appeared in the 1960s
that built on earlier discoveries, including Laroche's Les Hiéroglyphes Hittites (1960), Meriggi's Hieroglyphisch-hethitisches Glossar (1962), and Meriggi's Manuale di Eteo Geroglifico
(1966-1975). It is true, as Woudhuizen points out, that Luwian was not
well understood until the 1960s/70s, but that certainly does not
preclude the fabrication of a Luwian inscription, particularly if it was
based on real inscriptions like the Yalburt inscription.
The vast majority of the inscription consists of lists of cities and
regions. (In Luwian, a triangle is the determinative URBS, "city," and
two triangles marks the determinative REGIO, "kingdom/territory/region."
Note the long lists of places ending in these determinatives.) Add some
known verbs from other inscriptions and known Hittite and Luwian names
from Hittite texts and seals and boom, you have a forgery.
Paleographically and grammatically, some of the elements of this
inscription are at home in an Iron Age inscription and are not right for
a supposed Bronze Age inscription.
The usurpation of the "Great King" title (REX.MAGNUS) would make this
unique among the western Anatolian hieroglyphic inscriptions; it should
be noted that both Karabel and the digraphic silver seal use the simpler title "king" (REX) for the King of Mira.
Finally, the name and titles of Kupanta-Kurunta as written in this inscription (Ku-pa-tá-CERVUS2
LABARNA MAGNUS.REX; "Kupanta-Kurunta, Labarna, Great King") differ from
the Suratkaya inscription that (probably) records a diminutive of his
name (Ku-pa-ya MAGNUS.REX.FILIUS, "Kupaya, Great Prince"). The Suratkaya inscription was found only recently, in the 2000s.
Publishing and announcement of the discovery
The International Congress of Hittitology just took place (September
2017), and Woudhuizen was present. Why no mention of this text?
Furthermore, why is this being published in the Proceedings of the Dutch
Archaeological and Historical Society rather than the standard journals
in the field like Anatolian Studies or the Journal of Near Eastern
Studies? It would be, after all, a major discovery -- if it were
genuine.
How does this fit what we know about Hittite history?
We know from the Alaksandu treaty from the reign of Muwatalli II that
Kupanta-Kurunta of Mira and Alaksandu of Wilusa were allies, with the
Hittites serving as the overlord enforcing their alliance. Later, King
Alantalli of Mira (probably the son of Kupanta-Kurunta) served as a
witness for the bronze tablet treaty
between the Hittite king Tudhaliya IV and his cousin Kurunta of
Tarhuntassa, indicating Mira was still a loyal Hittite vassal. Still
later, one of the last Anatolian hieroglyphic inscriptions
preserved from the Bronze Age records Hittite military actions against
Masa, Lukka, Wiyanawanda (Greek Oenoanda), and other places in western
Anatolia, but there is no mention of Mira. It is most unlikely that Mira
would arrange a seagoing expedition during the period of the Pax Hethitica,
particularly due to Mycenaean control of much of the western Anatolian
coast and the strong likelihood of an immediate Hittite military
response.
We already knew from the Milawata letter that a king named Walmu was
indeed overthrown from his rule in Wiluša. The Hittite king ordered one
of his western vassals to turn Walmu over to his authority.
Kulana-ziti retained possession of the writing boards which I made
for Walmu, and he has now brought them to you, my son. Examine them!
Now, my son, as long as you look after the well-being of My Majesty, I,
My Majesty, will put my trust in your good will. Turn Walmu over to me,
my son, so that I may reinstall him in kingship in the land of Wiluša.
As he was formerly king of the land of Wiluša, he shall now likewise be!
A claim that the king of Mira controlled Troy is untenable. Indeed,
Mira declined significantly in prestige and power in the latter part of
the Late Bronze Age relative to the Seha River Land.
Too good to be true? Mellaart's claims revisited.
Mellaart briefly mentioned the existence of the inscription in at
least one publication, a book review published in 1992 in the Bulletin
of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society journal. But he never fully
described the inscription in a scientific publication.
In addition to citing the Beyköy text, Mellaart claimed to have found
a letter from the Assyrian king Aššurbanipal to Ardu/Ardys, son of
Gyges of Lydia. Conveniently, the letter happens to list 21 kings of
Arzawa with their regnal years and their synchronisms with the Assyrian
kings. Needless to say, the publication of such a fantastic text never
materialized.

Eberhard Zangger has great merits as geophysicist in the service of
archaeology around the Aegaean. He should focus on his profession and
disentangle himself and his foundation of Luwian Studies from dubious
inscriptions. The best way of doing that is playing with open cards
and placing his material online.

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-10-17 23:50:10 UTC

Post by Italo
Is it Goetze's translation ?

Post by Italo
How do you know if the drawing is from 1878 ? Goetze lived until 1971.

How could anything from the Nachlass of Albrecht Goetze, who was a professor
at Yale, in Connecticut, USA, for more than 35 years, have come into the

Hey, that's "Yale in New Haven, Connecticut, USA" but "New Haven, CT
USA". Connecticut is not so small that simply "Connecticut" will do,
and New Haven is not that obscure.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
private possession of an individual in Switzerland? The story is highly
improbable on that ground alone, as well as on the ground of "bronze
tablets."

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-18 03:09:22 UTC

Post by Italo
Is it Goetze's translation ?

Post by Italo
How do you know if the drawing is from 1878 ? Goetze lived until 1971.

How could anything from the Nachlass of Albrecht Goetze, who was a professor
at Yale, in Connecticut, USA, for more than 35 years, have come into the

Hey, that's "Yale in New Haven, Connecticut, USA" but "New Haven, CT
USA". Connecticut is not so small that simply "Connecticut" will do,
and New Haven is not that obscure.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
private possession of an individual in Switzerland? The story is highly
improbable on that ground alone, as well as on the ground of "bronze
tablets."

I do not expect Franz to be familiar with nuances of US geography.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2017-10-18 07:40:41 UTC

Post by Italo
Is it Goetze's translation ?

Post by Italo
How do you know if the drawing is from 1878 ? Goetze lived until 1971.

How could anything from the Nachlass of Albrecht Goetze, who was a professor
at Yale, in Connecticut, USA, for more than 35 years, have come into the

Hey, that's "Yale in New Haven, Connecticut, USA" but "New Haven, CT
USA". Connecticut is not so small that simply "Connecticut" will do,
and New Haven is not that obscure.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
private possession of an individual in Switzerland? The story is highly
improbable on that ground alone, as well as on the ground of "bronze
tablets."

I do not expect Franz to be familiar with nuances of US geography.

I do not expect Franz to be familiar with anything.

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-10-16 06:29:14 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Eberhard Zangger wrote a book on the Luwians and the Trojan War (German
version Orell Füssli Zürich 2017, maybe an English version will follow),
based on the Beyköy inscription, a frieze nearly thirty meters long,
thirty centimeters high. Beyköy is a village in Central West Anatolia,
north of modern Afyon. The inscription was carefully copied before the
stones were used for the foundament of the Beyköy mosque in 1878. James
Mellaart made a copy of the copy. The great archaeologist was convinced
that the inscription is genuine. Among his unpublished papers was found
a translation by Albrecht Götze. Here the opening lines by Great King
Kupantu-Kuruntas who ordered the inscription in 1180 BC
Thus (speaks) the Great King, Kupanta-Kuruntas, the hero, king
of the land of Mira, the son of Asuwantis, king of the land
of Arzawa, son of Manapa-Kuruntas, king of the land of Arzawa,
the son of Piyama-Kuruntas, king of the land of Arzawa, the
son of Uhaxitis, king of the land of Arzawa, the son of Amza-
Pahadus, king of the land of Arzawa, the son of Kupanta-Kuruntas,
king of Arzawa, my forebear.
Dramatic stories follow. Many names of the inscription appeared in genuine
documents that were discovered later on and were not known in 1878, so
a forger could not have known them. This convinced Mellaart and Woudhuizen
of the Beyköy inscription being genuine.
Eberhard Zangger uses it in order to shed new light on the role of West
Anatolia at the end of the Aegaean Bronze Age.

Correction and question. The Beyköy text is not the long stone frieze
inscribed with Luwian hieroglyphs but a Hittite text in cuneiform signs
covering three large bronze tables found by farmers near a mansion at
Beyköy, translated by Albrecht Götze at Yale half a century ago. Eberhard
Zangger gives the first and last pages of Götze's typoscript in facsimile.
I quoted the first 8 lines of the 57 lines on page 1. The typoscript has
67 pages. If the two pages rendered in facsimile are typical, the entire
script has between 3,000 and 4,000 lines, and if we halve their number
on account of standing formulae we still have a very long text. How can
it find place on three even large bronze tables? Those tables must have
been enormous, and this in 1170 BC. How and where did Goetze translate
them, from the originals or a pause or photographs? Zangger doesn't say,
doesn't give a picture, and doesn't even describe the bronze tables apart
from the single adjective gross 'big, large'. This weakens the book and
dampens my initial enthusiasm.

However, there is a positive aspect for me: nothing in the book that
contradicts my hermeneutic reading of the Odeyssey.

Daud Deden

2017-10-16 18:17:51 UTC