Discussion:
hey a Luigi Who's indigenous?
(too old to reply)
Carmen
2004-08-04 04:36:33 UTC
Permalink
ROTFL
This hilarious debate as the collective range of
NZ'ers scurry to define and redefine ourselves.
;-D

John Armstrong: Who's indigenous? The only certainty is Luigi

04.08.2004
COMMENT
Only one conclusion could be safely drawn from Parliament's attempt
yesterday to grapple with the question of who can claim to be an indigenous
New Zealander: Winston Peters is not an Italian.

That much became clear after a predictable bout of Peters-baiting.

But not much else did.

Pakeha New Zealanders confused about their identity may have been even more
confused after listening to the exchange between MPs sparked by last week's
speech from Race Relations Minister Trevor Mallard.

Of special note was the contribution of the Greens' Nandor Tanczos. The
Rastafarian MP with Hungarian lineage suggested that while Pakeha were not
indigenous, they did belong here by right of the Treaty of Waitangi and
could therefore call themselves "tangata tiriti", or people of the Treaty.

No thanks, grimaced National MPs, who are wary of Mr Mallard's obvious ploy
to woo Pakeha voters back to Labour by affirming his and, by implication,
their indigenousness.

Fortunately for National, there is sunlight between the positions held by
Wainuiomata Man and his Prime Minister, who prefers to call herself merely a
"New Zealander, full stop".

National's deputy leader, Gerry Brownlee, asked Mr Mallard what Helen Clark
had told him after she had read his treatise on the treaty.

Mr Mallard said he had a number of conversations with her, adding that one
of the "really interesting things"about speeches such as his was that it
prompted New Zealanders to discuss their country's future.

This sounded like a polite way of saying the Prime Minister did not entirely
agree with him.

But Mr Mallard was not backing off. He quoted historian Michael King, who
had declared that Pakeha became indigenous at the point when their focus of
identity and commitment shifted to New Zealand and away from countries and
cultures of origin.

All this navel-gazing was too much for Mr Peters, who suggested
international observers would find it pathetic that National and Labour were
arguing about all this.

Mr Mallard sarcastically thanked Mr Peters for his support, adding "and I'll
forget why we used to call him Luigi" - an old jibe directed at Mr Peters
for allegedly posing as Italian during his university days to hide his Maori
background.

Sharing the joke, Mr Peters said that "disgraceful" allegation had first
been made by a number of envious people when he was at university, even
though he had captained the Maori rugby team.

But the levity was shortlived.

Next up was Mr Tanczos. To collective groans from other parties, he asked if
Mr Mallard was aware of the United Nations' definition of indigenous people
as "communities having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and
pre-colonial societies".

Mr Mallard swiftly dismissed that argument, saying its logical conclusion
was that all those who had arrived in New Zealand on other than the first
canoe would not be indigenous.

But the Opposition was not finished. Act's Ken Shirley asked if Mr Mallard
had bothered to run his views on indigenousness past Labour's Maori MPs.

Mr Mallard replied that a couple had read his speech in advance, and he had
been invited to "share his views" with the rest of them in the near future.

He did not add the obvious corollary that they may wish to share their views
with him.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3582082&thesection=news&t
hesubsection=dialogue
David
2004-08-04 07:08:25 UTC
Permalink
All people are indigenous but some are most indigenous than others.
Post by Carmen
ROTFL
This hilarious debate as the collective range of
NZ'ers scurry to define and redefine ourselves.
theseus
2004-08-04 10:09:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
All people are indigenous but some are most indigenous than others.
None are indigenous, they all got where they are now by inventing
technology.
Especially the ones whose ancestors accomplished long sea voyages.
Lawrence D¹Oliveiro
2004-08-06 09:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
All people are indigenous but some are most indigenous than others.
Every opinion on this issue is right, but some opinions are more right
than others. :)
Tilly
2004-08-04 12:16:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
ROTFL
This hilarious debate as the collective range of
NZ'ers scurry to define and redefine ourselves.
;-D
Well Carmen even Tariana said on Agenda on Saturday night ,that she had no
argument with Kiwis calling themswelves indigenous if they were born here
here and their relatives have been here for a couple of generations.She
agrees they have as much right to call themselves New Zealanders and
guardians of the land as Maori.



Tilly


--
***@hotmail.com


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.732 / Virus Database: 486 - Release Date: 30/07/04
Robert Singers
2004-08-04 22:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Out from under a rock popped Tilly and said
Post by Tilly
Well Carmen even Tariana said on Agenda on Saturday night ,that she
had no argument with Kiwis calling themswelves indigenous if they were
born here here and their relatives have been here for a couple of
generations.She agrees they have as much right to call themselves New
Zealanders and guardians of the land as Maori.
Indigenous seems to have been used interchangeably with Tangata Whenua
over the last decade. I maybe wrong but doesn't Tangata Whenua have
something to do with where the bones of your ancestors are buried.

It seems rather mean spirited to me to differentiate between two people
based on skin colour when all their ancestors are buried in the same
ground, and they both have an oral history but no living memory of their
ancestors arriving in wooden sea going vessels.
--
rob singers
pull finger to reply
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
superweta
2004-08-06 03:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Agreed,
The only reason why Maori like to say they're indigenous and no one
else is, is so that they can put themselves above the Pakeha. The old
"this land is our land ,you're only visitors here" bullshit.
When Pakeha NZer's realise that they are just as indigenous as the
Maori's and have just as much claim to the sea/foreshore/natural
resources that the Maori do then we can really claim to be one
country.
Post by Robert Singers
Out from under a rock popped Tilly and said
Post by Tilly
Well Carmen even Tariana said on Agenda on Saturday night ,that she
had no argument with Kiwis calling themswelves indigenous if they were
born here here and their relatives have been here for a couple of
generations.She agrees they have as much right to call themselves New
Zealanders and guardians of the land as Maori.
Indigenous seems to have been used interchangeably with Tangata Whenua
over the last decade. I maybe wrong but doesn't Tangata Whenua have
something to do with where the bones of your ancestors are buried.
It seems rather mean spirited to me to differentiate between two people
based on skin colour when all their ancestors are buried in the same
ground, and they both have an oral history but no living memory of their
ancestors arriving in wooden sea going vessels.
David
2004-08-06 04:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Where I come from the descendents of the original pioneers
have some status and pride.

Generally they are very modest about it. Sometimes they are
embarrassingly self-effacing.

Every once in a while they come up with solutions to problems
that latecomers just don't see.

That's when people bother to listen to them.

Overall, in my experience the same applies to Maori.

That being so i would assume that your experience is limited.

Dafydd.
Post by superweta
Agreed,
The only reason why Maori like to say they're indigenous and no one
else is, is so that they can put themselves above the Pakeha. The old
"this land is our land ,you're only visitors here" bullshit.
When Pakeha NZer's realise that they are just as indigenous as the
Maori's and have just as much claim to the sea/foreshore/natural
resources that the Maori do then we can really claim to be one
country.
Post by Robert Singers
Out from under a rock popped Tilly and said
Post by Tilly
Well Carmen even Tariana said on Agenda on Saturday night ,that she
had no argument with Kiwis calling themswelves indigenous if they were
born here here and their relatives have been here for a couple of
generations.She agrees they have as much right to call themselves New
Zealanders and guardians of the land as Maori.
Indigenous seems to have been used interchangeably with Tangata Whenua
over the last decade. I maybe wrong but doesn't Tangata Whenua have
something to do with where the bones of your ancestors are buried.
It seems rather mean spirited to me to differentiate between two people
based on skin colour when all their ancestors are buried in the same
ground, and they both have an oral history but no living memory of their
ancestors arriving in wooden sea going vessels.
superweta
2004-08-13 04:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Not sure what your point is ?
Post by David
Where I come from the descendents of the original pioneers
have some status and pride.
Generally they are very modest about it. Sometimes they are
embarrassingly self-effacing.
Every once in a while they come up with solutions to problems
that latecomers just don't see.
That's when people bother to listen to them.
Overall, in my experience the same applies to Maori.
That being so i would assume that your experience is limited.
Dafydd.
David
2004-08-14 00:53:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by superweta
Not sure what your point is ?
I went back and read some of yout other posts.

Yes, what you say above is perfectly understandable.

-D
Post by superweta
Post by David
Where I come from the descendents of the original pioneers
have some status and pride.
Generally they are very modest about it. Sometimes they are
embarrassingly self-effacing.
Every once in a while they come up with solutions to problems
that latecomers just don't see.
That's when people bother to listen to them.
Overall, in my experience the same applies to Maori.
That being so i would assume that your experience is limited.
Dafydd.
tangata maori
2004-08-12 14:03:21 UTC
Permalink
Yeah sheep are indigenous to new zealand too,
so lets cut down all the forests so we can get rid of those stupid birds
that cant even fly so that the sheep have more paddocks.
cos after all if were not all sheep how can we be one country?
Subject: Re: hey a Luigi Who's indigenous?
Agreed,
The only reason why Maori like to say they're indigenous and no one
else is, is so that they can put themselves above the Pakeha. The old
"this land is our land ,you're only visitors here" bullshit.
When Pakeha NZer's realise that they are just as indigenous as the
Maori's and have just as much claim to the sea/foreshore/natural
resources that the Maori do then we can really claim to be one
country.
theseus
2004-08-12 21:01:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by tangata maori
Yeah sheep are indigenous to new zealand too,
so lets cut down all the forests so we can get rid of those stupid
birds that cant even fly so that the sheep have more paddocks.
cos after all if were not all sheep how can we be one country?
You must be a shearer Bro!
tangata maori
2004-08-12 23:24:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by theseus
Post by tangata maori
Yeah sheep are indigenous to new zealand too,
so lets cut down all the forests so we can get rid of those stupid
birds that cant even fly so that the sheep have more paddocks.
cos after all if were not all sheep how can we be one country?
You must be a shearer Bro!
Nah bro I'm a mad dog with rabies trying to infect the rest of yah!
superweta
2004-08-13 04:11:21 UTC
Permalink
One country means one set of rights for all. Not one race having
special rights above those of the rest of the population.
Post by tangata maori
Yeah sheep are indigenous to new zealand too,
so lets cut down all the forests so we can get rid of those stupid birds
that cant even fly so that the sheep have more paddocks.
cos after all if were not all sheep how can we be one country?
Subject: Re: hey a Luigi Who's indigenous?
Agreed,
The only reason why Maori like to say they're indigenous and no one
else is, is so that they can put themselves above the Pakeha. The old
"this land is our land ,you're only visitors here" bullshit.
When Pakeha NZer's realise that they are just as indigenous as the
Maori's and have just as much claim to the sea/foreshore/natural
resources that the Maori do then we can really claim to be one
country.
tangata maori
2004-08-13 20:27:08 UTC
Permalink
please can we get one thing straight.

its not a question of race,
just in case you didn't hear me

Its not a question of race.

races don't make treaties,
Nations make treaties.

or in our case a collection of nations.

if you are wondering how more than one nation/government can exist in one
country, answer me this.

how many governments exist in the U.K.?
--
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Newsgroups: nz.general,nz.politics,nz.soc.maori
Date: 12 Aug 2004 21:11:21 -0700
Subject: Re: hey a Luigi Who's indigenous?
One country means one set of rights for all. Not one race having
special rights above those of the rest of the population.
Post by tangata maori
Yeah sheep are indigenous to new zealand too,
so lets cut down all the forests so we can get rid of those stupid birds
that cant even fly so that the sheep have more paddocks.
cos after all if were not all sheep how can we be one country?
Subject: Re: hey a Luigi Who's indigenous?
Agreed,
The only reason why Maori like to say they're indigenous and no one
else is, is so that they can put themselves above the Pakeha. The old
"this land is our land ,you're only visitors here" bullshit.
When Pakeha NZer's realise that they are just as indigenous as the
Maori's and have just as much claim to the sea/foreshore/natural
resources that the Maori do then we can really claim to be one
country.
Tarla
2004-08-13 23:51:53 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:27:08 +1200, tangata maori
Post by tangata maori
please can we get one thing straight.
its not a question of race,
just in case you didn't hear me
Its not a question of race.
races don't make treaties,
Nations make treaties.
There are no Sovereign nations involved in the ToW other than the
Crown. Tribal groups are not nations.

--
Tarla
****
"...I'd rather be anything but ordinary, please."

Avril Lavigne
tangata maori
2004-08-14 00:04:50 UTC
Permalink
could you provide the definition on which you base your opinion?
--
Organization: Little Sisters of the Perpetually Juicy
Newsgroups: nz.general,nz.politics,nz.soc.maori
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 11:51:53 +1200
Subject: Re: hey a Luigi Who's indigenous?
There are no Sovereign nations involved in the ToW other than the
Crown. Tribal groups are not nations.
Tarla
2004-08-14 05:07:49 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 12:04:50 +1200, tangata maori
Post by tangata maori
could you provide the definition on which you base your opinion?
Supreme power especially over a body politic, a politically organised
system wherein there is a legal relationship involving allegiance on
the part of an individual and usually protection on the part of the
state.

Tribal organisation is not at the level of complexity where there is a
body politic nor is there a standing army to protect the individuals.
Tribal alliance was fluid, rather than involving allegiance. There was
no national organisation of all the tribes which would have allowed
them to bargain as a nation.

--
Tarla
****
"...I'd rather be anything but ordinary, please."

Avril Lavigne
ChrisOD
2004-08-14 03:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tarla
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:27:08 +1200, tangata maori
Post by tangata maori
please can we get one thing straight.
its not a question of race,
just in case you didn't hear me
Its not a question of race.
races don't make treaties,
Nations make treaties.
There are no Sovereign nations involved in the ToW other than the
Crown. Tribal groups are not nations.
But they were nations at the time of signing!
Post by Tarla
--
Tarla
****
"...I'd rather be anything but ordinary, please."
Avril Lavigne
tangata maori
2004-08-14 04:07:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by ChrisOD
Post by Tarla
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:27:08 +1200, tangata maori
Post by tangata maori
please can we get one thing straight.
its not a question of race,
just in case you didn't hear me
Its not a question of race.
races don't make treaties,
Nations make treaties.
There are no Sovereign nations involved in the ToW other than the
Crown. Tribal groups are not nations.
But they were nations at the time of signing!
yes

read the following Tarla and tell me if you can find the word 'Tribe'

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=treaty

A treaty is

2. An agreement so made; specifically, an agreement, league, or contract
between two or more nations or sovereigns, formally signed by commissioners
properly authorized, and solemnly ratified by the several sovereigns, or the
supreme power of each state; an agreement between two or more independent
states; as, a treaty of peace; a treaty of alliance.

or

2 : an agreement or arrangement made by negotiation: as a : PRIVATE TREATY b
: a contract in writing between two or more political authorities (as states
or sovereigns) formally signed by representatives duly authorized and
usually ratified by the lawmaking authority of the state <the
presidentŠshall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the
Senate, to make treaties ‹U.S. Constitution article II> ‹compare EXECUTIVE
AGREEMENT

or

n. pl. trea·ties

1.
a. A formal agreement between two or more states, as in reference to
terms of peace or trade.
b. The document in which such an agreement is set down.

2. A contract or agreement.


-------------------------------------

now for the definition of a nation,

read the following and tell me if you see the word ' tribe'


1.
a. A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually
independent government; a country.
b. The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the
nation, people are voting their representatives out.

2. The government of a sovereign state.
3. A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently
language; a nationality: ³Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation
which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity² (Robert
Conquest).
4.
a. A federation or tribe, especially one composed of Native Americans.
b. The territory occupied by such a federation or tribe.
Sue Bilstein
2004-08-14 08:41:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:07:11 +1200, tangata maori
Post by tangata maori
Post by ChrisOD
Post by Tarla
There are no Sovereign nations involved in the ToW other than the
Crown. Tribal groups are not nations.
But they were nations at the time of signing!
yes
read the following Tarla and tell me if you can find the word 'Tribe'
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=treaty
A treaty is
2. An agreement so made; specifically, an agreement, league, or contract
between two or more nations or sovereigns, formally signed by commissioners
properly authorized, and solemnly ratified by the several sovereigns, or the
supreme power of each state; an agreement between two or more independent
states; as, a treaty of peace; a treaty of alliance.
... etc.

This is why Hobson engineered the signing of the NZ declaration of
independence (the "Treaty Tribes") thing: so that there would be a
case for saying that there were two equal parties to the treaty of
cession of sovereignty.
David
2004-08-14 03:23:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tarla
There are no Sovereign nations involved in the ToW other than the
Crown. Tribal groups are not nations.
Crap! Iwi are sovereign nations.
Tarla
2004-08-14 05:08:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
Post by Tarla
There are no Sovereign nations involved in the ToW other than the
Crown. Tribal groups are not nations.
Crap! Iwi are sovereign nations.
Crap! You're wrong.
--
Tarla
****
"...I'd rather be anything but ordinary, please."

Avril Lavigne
Tilly
2004-08-06 09:50:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Singers
Out from under a rock popped Tilly and said
Post by Tilly
Well Carmen even Tariana said on Agenda on Saturday night ,that she
had no argument with Kiwis calling themswelves indigenous if they
were born here here and their relatives have been here for a couple
of generations.She agrees they have as much right to call themselves
New Zealanders and guardians of the land as Maori.
Indigenous seems to have been used interchangeably with Tangata Whenua
over the last decade.
Yes exactly and that is the distinction Tariana made.
There is a difference between 'indigenous' and Tangata Whenua.

I maybe wrong but doesn't Tangata Whenua have
Post by Robert Singers
something to do with where the bones of your ancestors are buried.
It does have to do with where Maori ancestors are buried. Can someone tell
me if i am correct in saying that a Pakeha who marries a Maori and becomes
steeped in Maori culture and develops a similar spiritual connection to the
land can become Tangata Whenua.
Post by Robert Singers
It seems rather mean spirited to me to differentiate between two
people based on skin colour when all their ancestors are buried in
the same ground,
In other words New Zealand born people of any race,colour or creed?

and they both have an oral history but no living
Post by Robert Singers
memory of their ancestors arriving in wooden sea going vessels.
Well non Maori NZers do have a written, recorded history of their arrival,
but Maori history was an oral tradition prior to the arrival of the
Europeans.Nothing was written down or recorded at the time.

Tilly
--
***@hotmail.com


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.734 / Virus Database: 488 - Release Date: 4/08/04
David
2004-08-07 22:57:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
It does have to do with where Maori ancestors are buried. Can someone tell
me if i am correct in saying that a Pakeha who marries a Maori and becomes
steeped in Maori culture and develops a similar spiritual connection to the
land can become Tangata Whenua.
Strictly speaking, no. In the south here many pakeha are buried in Maori
cemeteries
and in practise little or no distiction is made.

There are three (or more) levels of belonging for Maori:

Tangata whenua, mana whenua and ahi kaa.

Ahi kaa means 'lit fires'. That means active occupancy.

Of course kiiwi can maintain ahi kaa over their own domain as well.

-D
Post by Tilly
Post by Robert Singers
It seems rather mean spirited to me to differentiate between two
people based on skin colour when all their ancestors are buried in
the same ground,
Its not based on skin colour or even race.

its based on family, first, second and last.


teuli, bro a chenedl am byth
family, district and nation for ever.
Judges1318
2004-08-08 04:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
Post by Robert Singers
It seems rather mean spirited to me to differentiate between two
people based on skin colour when all their ancestors are buried in
the same ground,
Its not based on skin colour or even race.
its based on family, first, second and last.
Are we talking aristocracy here?
Unjust and unjustified, usurped privilege to be
above us, the lowly life forms?
A minority exploiting and then bashing the majority?
David
2004-08-09 06:55:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judges1318
Are we talking aristocracy here?
Unjust and unjustified, usurped privilege to be
above us, the lowly life forms?
A minority exploiting and then bashing the majority?
No.
Carmen
2004-08-04 22:42:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Carmen
ROTFL
This hilarious debate as the collective range of
NZ'ers scurry to define and redefine ourselves.
;-D
Well Carmen even Tariana said on Agenda on Saturday night ,that she had no
argument with Kiwis calling themswelves indigenous if they were born here
here and their relatives have been here for a couple of generations.She
agrees they have as much right to call themselves New Zealanders and
guardians of the land as Maori.
Tilly
--
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.732 / Virus Database: 486 - Release Date: 30/07/04
I missed that programme,
Tariana actually came out and said that ?

I've heard other activists saying otherwise.

However I know many Pakeha who,
by their actions and ethos, are just as much
guardians of this land as Maori.
Some even more so, considering that there are some Maori who appear to have
absolutely no physical, psychological or spiritual connection to the land.

Having said all that, according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_people
The United Nations defines indigenous peoples as follows:

"Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a
historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that
developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other
sectors of the societies now prevailing in those territories, or parts of
them."
Advocates of the concept of indigenous peoples argue that, despite the
diversity of indigenous peoples, they share common problems and issues in
dealing with the prevailing, or invading, society. They are generally
concerned that the cultures of indigenous peoples are being lost and that
indigenous peoples suffer both discrimination and pressure to assimilate
into their surrounding societies. This is borne out by the fact that the
lands and cultures of nearly all of the peoples listed at the end of this
article are under threat
(end of quote)

Carmen
theseus
2004-08-04 23:24:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
I missed that programme,
Tariana actually came out and said that ?
I've heard other activists saying otherwise.
However I know many Pakeha who,
by their actions and ethos, are just as much
guardians of this land as Maori.
Some even more so, considering that there are some Maori who appear
to have absolutely no physical, psychological or spiritual connection
to the land.
Having said all that, according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_people
"Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a
historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies
that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct
from other sectors of the societies now prevailing in those
territories, or parts of them."
Advocates of the concept of indigenous peoples argue that, despite the
diversity of indigenous peoples, they share common problems and
issues in dealing with the prevailing, or invading, society. They are
generally concerned that the cultures of indigenous peoples are being
lost and that indigenous peoples suffer both discrimination and
pressure to assimilate into their surrounding societies. This is
borne out by the fact that the lands and cultures of nearly all of
the peoples listed at the end of this article are under threat
(end of quote)
Carmen
As it says "Advocates of the concept".

From the same link

Several criticisms of the concept of indigenous peoples are:

* In many cases, such as with some Native American tribes, some people
claim that the people termed indigenous arrived in an area after the people
termed non-indigenous.
* Peoples have invaded or colonised each other's lands since before
recorded history and so the division into indigenous and non-indigenous is a
matter of judgement. Even in recent centuries there are difficulties: for
example, are the Zulu people indigenous to South Africa?
* Lumping indigenous peoples into one group ignores the vast amounts of
diversity among them and at the same time imposes a uniform identity on
them, which may not be historically accurate.

Some feel that those who argue that indigenous peoples should have the right
of self-determination often are simply replacing the stereotype of the
barbaric savage with another stereotype, that of the noble savage possessing
mystic truths and at peace with nature, and that this second stereotype
ignores some of the real issues of indigenous peoples such as economic
development.


Its difficult to define an indigenous person after 150 years of assimilation
and participation in a common post colonial culture.
However attractive the bandwagon may look, its not possible to
retrospectively litigate the protection of the pre colonial people 200 odd
years after the event on the basis of UN guidelines from a draft declaration
made in 1998.
Bobs
2004-08-04 23:38:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
Post by Tilly
Post by Carmen
ROTFL
This hilarious debate as the collective range of
NZ'ers scurry to define and redefine ourselves.
;-D
Well Carmen even Tariana said on Agenda on Saturday night ,that she had no
argument with Kiwis calling themswelves indigenous if they were born here
here and their relatives have been here for a couple of generations.She
agrees they have as much right to call themselves New Zealanders and
guardians of the land as Maori.
Tilly
--
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.732 / Virus Database: 486 - Release Date: 30/07/04
I missed that programme,
Tariana actually came out and said that ?
I've heard other activists saying otherwise.
However I know many Pakeha who,
by their actions and ethos, are just as much
guardians of this land as Maori.
Some even more so, considering that there are some Maori who appear to have
absolutely no physical, psychological or spiritual connection to the land.
Having said all that, according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_people
Hahahaha! Come on Carmen, the United Nations?!? Who takes those idiots
seriously? They just like to complicate things as usual.

If you were born in NZ, you are indigenous.
Post by Carmen
"Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a
historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that
developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other
sectors of the societies now prevailing in those territories, or parts of
them."
Advocates of the concept of indigenous peoples argue that, despite the
diversity of indigenous peoples, they share common problems and issues in
dealing with the prevailing, or invading, society. They are generally
concerned that the cultures of indigenous peoples are being lost and that
indigenous peoples suffer both discrimination and pressure to assimilate
into their surrounding societies. This is borne out by the fact that the
lands and cultures of nearly all of the peoples listed at the end of this
article are under threat
(end of quote)
Carmen
JD
2004-08-05 05:29:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
Post by Tilly
Post by Carmen
ROTFL
This hilarious debate as the collective range of
NZ'ers scurry to define and redefine ourselves.
;-D
Well Carmen even Tariana said on Agenda on Saturday night ,that she had no
argument with Kiwis calling themswelves indigenous if they were born here
here and their relatives have been here for a couple of generations.She
agrees they have as much right to call themselves New Zealanders and
guardians of the land as Maori.
Tilly
--
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.732 / Virus Database: 486 - Release Date: 30/07/04
I missed that programme,
Tariana actually came out and said that ?
I've heard other activists saying otherwise.
However I know many Pakeha who,
by their actions and ethos, are just as much
guardians of this land as Maori.
Some even more so, considering that there are some Maori who appear to have
absolutely no physical, psychological or spiritual connection to the land.
Having said all that, according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_people
"Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a
historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that
developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other
sectors of the societies now prevailing in those territories, or parts of
them."
Isn't that convenient, because otherwise there would be no beneift to
being "indidenous" would there?

But what else do you expect from the same mob that have the Commission
on Human Rights composed of the following nations:

China, Cuba, Egypt, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Saudi
Arabia, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Zimbabwe...

What a joke.
Lawrence D¹Oliveiro
2004-08-06 09:12:26 UTC
Permalink
... according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_people
"Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a
historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that
developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other
sectors of the societies now prevailing in those territories, or parts of
them."
But the Mäori themselves were colonists, were they not?
Tilly
2004-08-06 10:12:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D¹Oliveiro
But the Mäori themselves were colonists, were they not?
No. There was nobody to colonise.The Morioris were only located in the
Chathams.

Tilly

--
***@hotmail.com


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.734 / Virus Database: 488 - Release Date: 4/08/04
JD
2004-08-06 10:59:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D¹Oliveiro
But the Mäori themselves were colonists, were they not?
No. There was nobody to colonise.The Morioris were only located in the
Chathams.
Are they immigrants?
Tilly
2004-08-06 11:24:25 UTC
Permalink
JD wrote:

Yes, they arrived prior to the Maoris and it was Maoris who enslaved and
slaughtered them to the point of extinction.The Morioris offered no
resistance because they were totally pacifist and didn't beleive in killing.

There is plenty of info available on the net.

Take your pick!

http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=Morioris%2BChatham+Islands&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl
=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
.
Tilly

--
***@hotmail.com


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.734 / Virus Database: 488 - Release Date: 4/08/04
JD
2004-08-06 11:30:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Yes, they arrived prior to the Maoris
The Maoris did?
Tilly
2004-08-06 12:50:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by JD
Post by Tilly
Yes, they arrived prior to the Maoris
The Maoris did?
The Morioris did according to the majority of NZ historians. :-)



Tilly

--
***@hotmail.com


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.734 / Virus Database: 488 - Release Date: 5/08/04
David
2004-08-09 07:35:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
The Morioris did according to the majority of NZ historians. :-)
That statement is correct if you count only settler historians pre-1920.

No reputable NZ historian would say that in 2004.

-D
Agnes Lovejoy Prune
2004-08-09 12:10:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
Post by Tilly
The Morioris did according to the majority of NZ historians. :-)
That statement is correct if you count only settler historians pre-1920.
No reputable NZ historian would say that in 2004.
-D
The further away from the event, the more accurate. I wonder what the
accepted Really True(C) Truth will be in 2075.

A L P
grimly bubble
2004-08-12 20:49:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by JD
Post by Tilly
Yes, they arrived prior to the Maoris
The Maoris did?
The Morioris did according to the majority of NZ historians. :-)
Tilly
It is not really known when or by what means the native Chatham Islanders
arrived. Fact is they were there, then came European, then came Maori from
Taranaki about 1835. The Maori chief apparently had been working on various
whaling ships and had visited Chatham and Tahiti in his travels. One of the
historians, King I think, mentions that this chief had his sights set on
taking Tahiti as well as Chatham.

His tribe killed and enslaved and dispossed a lot of peaceful people.
Post by Tilly
--
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.734 / Virus Database: 488 - Release Date: 5/08/04
Judges1318
2004-08-13 02:59:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by grimly bubble
It is not really known when or by what means the native Chatham Islanders
arrived. Fact is they were there, then came European, then came Maori from
Taranaki about 1835. The Maori chief apparently had been working on various
whaling ships and had visited Chatham and Tahiti in his travels. One of the
historians, King I think, mentions that this chief had his sights set on
taking Tahiti as well as Chatham.
Crikey! Tahiti!

Hm, I do not think the French would treat Maoris as benevolently
as the Brits have, so if he went to Tahiti, it would have been, let
us say, interesting.
Post by grimly bubble
His tribe killed and enslaved and dispossed a lot of peaceful people.
superweta
2004-08-13 04:17:55 UTC
Permalink
"grimly bubble" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<***@clear.net.nz>...
How can this be true, as we all know from our PC induced coma that the
Maori are a gentle people that are in tune with the rythms of the
land. You'd better take this historical fact back else you'll be
called a racist.
Post by grimly bubble
His tribe killed and enslaved and dispossed a lot of peaceful people.
Post by Tilly
--
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.734 / Virus Database: 488 - Release Date: 5/08/04
grimly bubble
2004-08-13 07:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by superweta
How can this be true, as we all know from our PC induced coma that the
Maori are a gentle people that are in tune with the rythms of the
land. You'd better take this historical fact back else you'll be
called a racist.
Have been often by maori and Pakeha, proves I am a New Zealander
Post by superweta
Post by grimly bubble
His tribe killed and enslaved and dispossed a lot of peaceful people.
Post by Tilly
--
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.734 / Virus Database: 488 - Release Date: 5/08/04
David
2004-08-13 10:09:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by grimly bubble
whaling ships and had visited Chatham and Tahiti in his travels. One of the
historians, King I think, mentions that this chief had his sights set on
taking Tahiti as well as Chatham.
I think it was Samoa, not Tahiti. (Or was it Tonga???)
grimly bubble
2004-08-14 07:03:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
Post by grimly bubble
whaling ships and had visited Chatham and Tahiti in his travels. One of
the
Post by grimly bubble
historians, King I think, mentions that this chief had his sights set on
taking Tahiti as well as Chatham.
I think it was Samoa, not Tahiti. (Or was it Tonga???)
No, in the account I read, and it may have been King in an Island apart, or
Moriori. I am pretty sure that it was Tahiti. The chief settled around 900
people in two boatloads on Chatham so it was not a small force.
grimly bubble
2004-08-12 20:46:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Yes, they arrived prior to the Maoris and it was Maoris who enslaved and
slaughtered them to the point of extinction.The Morioris offered no
resistance because they were totally pacifist and didn't beleive in killing.
There is plenty of info available on the net.
Take your pick!
Chatham was my home for a while, I sailed there for a bit of R and R a few
yeares ago. The history of the Maori/ Native Chatham Islander clashes makes
sobering reading.
http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=Morioris%2BChatham+Islands&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl
Post by Tilly
=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
.
Tilly
--
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.734 / Virus Database: 488 - Release Date: 4/08/04
Geoff McCaughan
2004-08-08 23:09:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
No. There was nobody to colonise.The Morioris were only located in the
Chathams.
There was "nobody" to colonise???

Look up the definition of "colony" and "colonise". You colonise a territory,
inhabitants or lack thereof are irrelevant.

"Maori colonised New Zealand" is perfectly factual and valid.
--
Burn the land and boil the sea,
You can't take the sky from me.
Tilly
2004-08-09 14:27:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff McCaughan
Post by Tilly
No. There was nobody to colonise.The Morioris were only located in
the Chathams.
There was "nobody" to colonise???
Look up the definition of "colony" and "colonise". You colonise a
territory, inhabitants or lack thereof are irrelevant.
"Maori colonised New Zealand" is perfectly factual and valid.
I seriously suggest you look up the meaning of the word 'colonise'

in a reputable dictionary..

Collins complete English Dictionary.

Colonialism: The policy and practise of a power in extending control over
weaker people or areas.

Colony: A body of people who settle in a country distant from their homeland
but maintain ties with it.

This includes the establishment of institutions and laws which allow them
to control and govern weaker peoples.

All the dictionaries I have sourced support the above.




Tilly



***@hotmail.com


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 6/08/04
Geoff McCaughan
2004-08-09 22:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
I seriously suggest you look up the meaning of the word 'colonise'
in a reputable dictionary..
Take your own advice, but this time read for comprehension.
Post by Tilly
Colony: A body of people who settle in a country distant from their homeland
but maintain ties with it.
This includes the establishment of institutions and laws which allow them
to control and govern weaker peoples.
Yes, but note that while the definition of colony *allows* the establishment
of control over other inhabitants, but it doesn't *require* it.

Have you ever heard of proposals to form a colony on the moon or mars?
--
Burn the land and boil the sea,
You can't take the sky from me.
Tilly
2004-08-10 03:38:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff McCaughan
Post by Tilly
I seriously suggest you look up the meaning of the word 'colonise'
in a reputable dictionary..
Take your own advice, but this time read for comprehension.
Post by Tilly
Colony: A body of people who settle in a country distant from their
homeland but maintain ties with it.
This includes the establishment of institutions and laws which
allow them to control and govern weaker peoples.
Yes, but note that while the definition of colony *allows* the
establishment of control over other inhabitants, but it doesn't
*require* it.
Have you ever heard of proposals to form a colony on the moon or mars?
I strongly you suggest you read this again:

Colonialism: The policy and practise of a power, in extending control over
weaker people OR areas.

I suggest that would apply to an Anerican colony on the moon ,a Chinese one
,Russian one etc......They would have strong ties to their homeland and be
ruled from home and eventually they might get full independence or become a
state of the US in the case of an American colony. .

Which homeland did the Maori continue to have strong ties to ? Did they
establish national laws or have institutions governing Maori?
Of course not, the tribes were often engaged in inter-tribal warfare.

Tilly




***@hotmail.com


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 6/08/04
theseus
2004-08-10 03:53:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Colonialism: The policy and practise of a power, in extending control over
weaker people OR areas.
colonisation != colonialism
Geoff McCaughan
2004-08-10 03:57:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Colonialism: The policy and practise of a power, in extending control over
weaker people OR areas.
"People or areas" - backs up my case 100%. An area does not need an original
population in order to be colonised.
Post by Tilly
Which homeland did the Maori continue to have strong ties to ?
*I* don't know, but they presumably did, unless you're trying to suggest
that there was only one Maori voyage to NZ, or that several migration
voyages came to NZ with no communication to the homeland.
Post by Tilly
Did they establish national laws or have institutions governing Maori? Of
course not, the tribes were often engaged in inter-tribal warfare.
Are you suggesting that this is the sine qua non of colonialism?
--
Burn the land and boil the sea,
You can't take the sky from me.
Robert Singers
2004-08-10 04:23:19 UTC
Permalink
Tilly startled all and sundry by ejaculating the following words of wisdom
Tilly. Take a deep breath and go back to your dictionary.
--
rob singers
pull finger to reply
tangata maori
2004-08-12 14:07:16 UTC
Permalink
--
Organization: Xtra
Newsgroups: nz.general,nz.politics,nz.soc.maori
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 22:12:49 +1200
Subject: Re: hey a Luigi Who's indigenous?
Post by Lawrence D¹Oliveiro
But the Mäori themselves were colonists, were they not?
No. There was nobody to colonise.The Morioris were only located in the
Chathams.
Tilly
Moriori and Maori are the same word, they both mean natural, and are
dialectual variations with the same meaning.
grimly bubble
2004-08-12 20:51:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by tangata maori
--
Organization: Xtra
Newsgroups: nz.general,nz.politics,nz.soc.maori
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 22:12:49 +1200
Subject: Re: hey a Luigi Who's indigenous?
Post by Lawrence D¹Oliveiro
But the Mäori themselves were colonists, were they not?
No. There was nobody to colonise.The Morioris were only located in the
Chathams.
Tilly
Moriori and Maori are the same word, they both mean natural, and are
dialectual variations with the same meaning.
Perhaps you are right but the meaning has changed over time. It was
estimated that Moriori had inhabioted Pitt then Chatham for 6 -7 hundred
years before Broughton sailing the Chatham came across these islands.
tangata maori
2004-08-12 23:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by grimly bubble
Post by tangata maori
Moriori and Maori are the same word, they both mean natural, and are
dialectual variations with the same meaning.
Perhaps you are right but the meaning has changed over time. It was
estimated that Moriori had inhabioted Pitt then Chatham for 6 -7 hundred
years before Broughton sailing the Chatham came across these islands.
Whatever definitions have been tagged onto these words
they still retain their original meanings.
its like the term indian, just cause native americans are called indians
does not mean that they come from india.

tangata maori means 'natural person', the legal term recognised
internationally for a human being.
Geoff McCaughan
2004-08-12 23:54:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by tangata maori
tangata maori means 'natural person', the legal term recognised
internationally for a human being.
I guess that includes us all then.
--
Burn the land and boil the sea,
You can't take the sky from me.
tangata maori
2004-08-14 01:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff McCaughan
Post by tangata maori
tangata maori means 'natural person', the legal term recognised
internationally for a human being.
I guess that includes us all then.
yes its interesting how many indigenous cultures use their words for Human
Being to describe themselves.

we are all human beings, one people living on one planet, but oneness does
not mean sameness, and it is the differences that we have that make us
unique.
Tarla
2004-08-14 05:02:10 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 13:36:11 +1200, tangata maori
Post by tangata maori
Post by Geoff McCaughan
Post by tangata maori
tangata maori means 'natural person', the legal term recognised
internationally for a human being.
I guess that includes us all then.
yes its interesting how many indigenous cultures use their words for Human
Being to describe themselves.
we are all human beings, one people living on one planet, but oneness does
not mean sameness, and it is the differences that we have that make us
unique.
and it's the sameness that makes us all brothers and sisters.

--
Tarla
****
"...I'd rather be anything but ordinary, please."

Avril Lavigne
superweta
2004-08-13 04:14:43 UTC
Permalink
Um no they don't.
Maoris only spread this rumour so that they can claim they were the
first inhabitants of NZ. Try asking a Moriori if they consider
themselves the same race as the Maori, oops I forgot the Maori's upon
colonising NZ butchered them all.
Post by tangata maori
Moriori and Maori are the same word, they both mean natural, and are
dialectual variations with the same meaning.
tangata maori
2004-08-13 20:19:17 UTC
Permalink
well then mr/ms smartypants , what does the word moriori mean?

and if maori did colonise aotearoa, how did the colonies maintain contact
with the ruling kings back in Rarotonga and Tahiti?

If we make distinctions between maori and moriori and call them different
races, then i guess that my grandparents were from different races because
they came from different tribes. Try asking a ngapuhi if they consider
themselves to be Te Arawa and if we call tribes different races then i guess
each marae hapu (Sub-tribe) would be classed as separate races using your
logic.

The distinction between maori and moriori is essentially the same as between
ngai tahu and ngati Te ati awa, or any other tribe. Maori have been lumped
together because of Tupaia.

Tupaia came over with cook and could speak english by the time they arrived
here. He asked the local inhabitants "O vai oe?" , who are you.

The reply was 'He Tangata Maori' a natural person, a human being. THATS how,
the collective tribes of Aotearoa became collectively known as 'Maori'

and besides, moriori were made up of two tribes, and lumped together but the
euros, so moriori is actually made up of two races using your logic.

The moriori had found a way to settle tribal grievances without the whole
tribe going to war, before the start of what propably would have been the
last moriori inter tribal war, a tohunga there realised that if both tribes
went to war the islands population would be decimated. He gave them an
alternative solution to war to settle the grievances. I wish todays world
leaders had as much brains.
--
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Newsgroups: nz.general,nz.politics,nz.soc.maori
Date: 12 Aug 2004 21:14:43 -0700
Subject: Re: hey a Luigi Who's indigenous?
Um no they don't.
Maoris only spread this rumour so that they can claim they were the
first inhabitants of NZ. Try asking a Moriori if they consider
themselves the same race as the Maori, oops I forgot the Maori's upon
colonising NZ butchered them all.
Post by tangata maori
Moriori and Maori are the same word, they both mean natural, and are
dialectual variations with the same meaning.
Judges1318
2004-08-14 01:27:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by tangata maori
The moriori had found a way to settle tribal grievances without the whole
tribe going to war, before the start of what propably would have been the
last moriori inter tribal war, a tohunga there realised that if both tribes
went to war the islands population would be decimated. He gave them an
alternative solution to war to settle the grievances. I wish todays world
leaders had as much brains.
Indeed, if you want to keep peace, kill them all, and then there
is peace. If you can get a fine booty out of it, even better.
I think today's world leaders are very much on those Maori lines.
tangata maori
2004-08-14 01:59:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judges1318
Post by tangata maori
The moriori had found a way to settle tribal grievances without the whole
tribe going to war, before the start of what propably would have been the
last moriori inter tribal war, a tohunga there realised that if both tribes
went to war the islands population would be decimated. He gave them an
alternative solution to war to settle the grievances. I wish todays world
leaders had as much brains.
Indeed, if you want to keep peace, kill them all, and then there
is peace. If you can get a fine booty out of it, even better.
I think today's world leaders are very much on those Maori lines.
You have no idea what I am talking about do you

at the time when the afore mentioned war was to start, the tohunga stood in
between the two groups and told everyone to put down their weapons.

they all listened as they didn't want to incur the wrath of the tohunga.
he summoned the rangatira from each group, and announced,"from this day
forward, differences would be settled by each rangatira only, they will
fight each other with a stick no longer that their arm and no thicker than
their thumb the first one to draw blood will be the winner" after that
differences were settled this way and enabled them to life peacefully on the
same island.
Judges1318
2004-08-14 05:46:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by tangata maori
You have no idea what I am talking about do you
It may be so.
Post by tangata maori
at the time when the afore mentioned war was to start, the tohunga stood in
between the two groups and told everyone to put down their weapons.
they all listened as they didn't want to incur the wrath of the tohunga.
he summoned the rangatira from each group, and ...
All right, I accept it was so, although I am puzzled how it would work
in practice.

Yet, I am aware there are things I know not about, but what I have been
told is that Maoris went to the Chattams, and robbed, killed and
enslaved the Morioris living there. Now, as you have said, it is not
a question of the race, but of the nation, and Morioris were a
different nation from Maoris, and Maoris wiped off the nation.
And this is what is being done up to this day in the world by the
world leaders.
David
2004-08-14 05:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judges1318
Yet, I am aware there are things I know not about, but what I have been
told is that Maoris went to the Chattams, and robbed, killed and
enslaved the Morioris living there. Now, as you have said, it is not
a question of the race, but of the nation, and Morioris were a
different nation from Maoris, and Maoris wiped off the nation.
And this is what is being done up to this day in the world by the
world leaders.
Moriori weren't different from Maori. In any case what happened was
despicable.

The whole massacre was not possible without the intervention of pakeha.

-D
Bobs
2004-08-14 05:59:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
Post by Judges1318
Yet, I am aware there are things I know not about, but what I have been
told is that Maoris went to the Chattams, and robbed, killed and
enslaved the Morioris living there. Now, as you have said, it is not
a question of the race, but of the nation, and Morioris were a
different nation from Maoris, and Maoris wiped off the nation.
And this is what is being done up to this day in the world by the
world leaders.
Moriori weren't different from Maori.
The Moriori disagree and isn't that what matters?
Post by David
In any case what happened was
despicable.
The whole massacre was not possible without the intervention of pakeha.
So who killed who again? Christ, you liberals are a laugh a minute.
Blame the White Guy should be your catch phrase.
Post by David
-D
--
"In his big victory speech last night, Senator Kerry said that he wanted
to defeat George Bush and the 'economy of privilege.' Then he hugged his
wife, Teresa, heir to the multi-million dollar Heinz food fortune." —Jay
Leno

"An Internet rumor claims that John Kerry had an affair with a young
woman. When asked if this was similar to the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, a
spokesman said 'Close, but no cigar.'" —Jimmy Fallon
David
2004-08-14 06:55:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bobs
Post by David
Moriori weren't different from Maori.
The Moriori disagree and isn't that what matters?
Ok. Moriori are different from Tainui or Takitimu

but they are definitely Polynesian.
Post by Bobs
So who killed who again? Christ, you liberals are a laugh a minute.
Blame the White Guy should be your catch phrase.
I am not blaming pakeha. There was an enquiry after the massacre. The
captain
of the Rodney was questioned. From memory he said he was coerced. He got
loads of flax- and he did make two trips over.

Get a few facts on board before you make bald statements.
tangata maori
2004-08-14 07:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bobs
Post by David
Post by Judges1318
Yet, I am aware there are things I know not about, but what I have been
told is that Maoris went to the Chattams, and robbed, killed and
enslaved the Morioris living there. Now, as you have said, it is not
a question of the race, but of the nation, and Morioris were a
different nation from Maoris, and Maoris wiped off the nation.
And this is what is being done up to this day in the world by the
world leaders.
Moriori weren't different from Maori.
The Moriori disagree and isn't that what matters?
Post by David
In any case what happened was
despicable.
The whole massacre was not possible without the intervention of pakeha.
So who killed who again? Christ, you liberals are a laugh a minute.
Blame the White Guy should be your catch phrase.
I remember reading years ago about how the colonials used to stir troubles
between tribes to make them fight. I'll have to dig that book up and read it
again. Its a tactic that was used time and time again when colonising,
divide and conquer

Colonialism 101.9

making them fight each other instead of fighting them yourself
tangata maori
2004-08-14 07:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judges1318
Post by tangata maori
You have no idea what I am talking about do you
It may be so.
Post by tangata maori
at the time when the afore mentioned war was to start, the tohunga stood in
between the two groups and told everyone to put down their weapons.
they all listened as they didn't want to incur the wrath of the tohunga.
he summoned the rangatira from each group, and ...
All right, I accept it was so, although I am puzzled how it would work
in practice.
just to be clear, this happened in the chatams / rekohu
Post by Judges1318
Yet, I am aware there are things I know not about, but what I have been
told is that Maoris went to the Chattams, and robbed, killed and
enslaved the Morioris living there. Now, as you have said, it is not
a question of the race, but of the nation, and Morioris were a
different nation from Maoris, and Maoris wiped off the nation.
in effect each tribe was a nation with their own boundaries and laws,

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nation

so every now and then one or another nation in aotearoa was trying to wipe
out another one. every country's history has this type of behaviour. Its
human history.

but there seems to be a perception that every maori tribe was hungry for
rekohu flesh or something or that it was all the tribes of aotearoa against
the rekohu tribes and that's just not true.
Post by Judges1318
And this is what is being done up to this day in the world by the
world leaders.
The difference in aotearoa is that the backlash from the indigenous people
of Aotearoa is not a violent one as it seems to be in most of the rest of
the world.
We tried that and it didn't work although the british were beaten time and
time again.

the difference is that maori are using dialogue and legal avenues to try to
find an answer. An answer that includes looking after the land sea and air
for future generations, lets face it, if we keep raping the earth the way we
have been as a global society, our time as a species is limited.
Things are way outta balance and something is gonna break of we don't change
our direction.

I think that we are an example to the rest of the world as we have not used
tactics used by other less diplomatic close minded people. I would hate to
see that sort of thing here and hate the fact that it happens in other
places, but i have been asking myself lately if push came to shove, would i
be prepared to die for my land and potentially leave my children fatherless?
No I wouldn't, I couldn't do that to my children. What I want to do for my
children is raise them with a love of the land, even though we have brought
them up in the city, I take them home to the country to walk over the land
we still have title over, and then we illegally trespass onto our ancestral
land and I tell them the histories and how they are connected to these
places. I took them to an old Pa site that was used for storing food from
the gardens, I didn't tell them what this place was, then my son of four at
the time says 'Dad, did our nannies used to live here?" 'Yes' I told him. he
sighed and said, "I miss them, do they still love us?" "they will always
love you son"
So instead of dying for my land I will one day get it back for their
children.
David
2004-08-14 03:31:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judges1318
Indeed, if you want to keep peace, kill them all, and then there
is peace. If you can get a fine booty out of it, even better.
I think today's world leaders are very much on those Maori lines.
there is one essential difference here

Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama did not sign any form of contract with Tchat
Henu
before conquering them.

The English crown did make such a contract saying that Maori were equal
citizens
and therefore subject to the rule of law.

For many iwi the English queen did not uphold her side of the contract.
Judges1318
2004-08-14 05:25:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
and therefore subject to the rule of law.
For many iwi the English queen did not uphold her side of the contract.
So why do not the iwi hiikoi to London, and rant and spit in front
of the Westminster palace? Why oppress the poor New Zealanders
with it, when they have not anything to do with it?

Mind you, we could agree that the Pohms got in, got rich, and got out,
leaving the New Zealand in not an enviable state. And that is ALL of
New Zealand, not just the Maori. Can it enter your mind that life is
tough today for EVERYONE?
David
2004-08-14 05:45:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judges1318
So why do not the iwi hiikoi to London, and rant and spit in front
of the Westminster palace? Why oppress the poor New Zealanders
with it, when they have not anything to do with it?
basically a number of iwi went to England or wrote letters.

This forms an part of treaty claims today- the injustice was challenged
right from the beginning.

I did the same thing when the crown came along and took my families' land.



David.
tangata maori
2004-08-14 06:01:11 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: hey a Luigi Who's indigenous?
Post by David
and therefore subject to the rule of law.
For many iwi the English queen did not uphold her side of the contract.
So why do not the iwi hiikoi to London, and rant and spit in front
of the Westminster palace?
heard of the privy council? wai-262?
Why oppress the poor New Zealanders
with it, when they have not anything to do with it?
to oppress you need to be in a position of power
Mind you, we could agree that the Pohms got in, got rich, and got out,
leaving the New Zealand in not an enviable state. And that is ALL of
New Zealand, not just the Maori. Can it enter your mind that life is
tough today for EVERYONE?
they didn't really get out though did they, they left their minions running
the show. it wasn't that long ago new zealanders called england the
motherland and made everyone stand up at the movies and sing god save the
queen.

yeah its tough for everyone.
its lot tougher when your identity has been stripped and the empty hole left
has been replaced with something else.

this pattern has been demonstrated time and time again with indigenous
people, white indigenous peoples included, take the sami people for example
who were colonised, identity, language and culture stripped and outlawed by
the swedish govt. the sami are european but they have a lot of the same
problems as other indigenous people that were colonised the world over, its
funny that they don't just get over it and get on with it either.

me, I am getting on with it, I thought i was over it until i started
learning more about it. then i started getting angry when i learned what was
stolen from me.

Maybe its one of those things that you have to go through personally to
understand? I hope you never have to.
Judges1318
2004-08-14 06:37:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by tangata maori
me, I am getting on with it, I thought i was over it until i started
learning more about it. then i started getting angry when i learned what was
stolen from me.
Maybe its one of those things that you have to go through personally to
understand? I hope you never have to.
OK, last for today.

I shall leave your family and mine aside, and not compete as to
whose misfortune was greater.

If you are so keen on 1840s, speaking in that language, I am legally
described as a pauper - no land title of any sort, living on wages.
Having a walk in the forest or a barbie on a beach may be the only
true happiness I have in life.

Your land may have been taken away by the rich, yet you wag your
finger at me, spitting and yelling: give me back my land, and bloody
honkies, off the beaches, it is mine!

Well, our troubles may be the same, but instead of enlisting me to
fight with you, you have chosen to take me as your enemy. You have
chosen to take that little joy of living from me - the sun, sand
and splashing water.

Meanwhile, the rich laugh because they know they will be away long
before any harm happens to them. I am sure they all have at least
plans to move their wealth away, mind you, 2 million will buy you
an EU passport legally, but they probably have kept their "overseas
British" status anyway.

So, when the shit hits the fan, brace yourself. Those who have something
to lose, will have gone. Those you will have to face will have nothing
to lose, and nowhere to go.
tangata maori
2004-08-14 08:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judges1318
Post by tangata maori
me, I am getting on with it, I thought i was over it until i started
learning more about it. then i started getting angry when i learned what was
stolen from me.
Maybe its one of those things that you have to go through personally to
understand? I hope you never have to.
OK, last for today.
I shall leave your family and mine aside, and not compete as to
whose misfortune was greater.
If you are so keen on 1840s, speaking in that language, I am legally
described as a pauper - no land title of any sort, living on wages.
Having a walk in the forest or a barbie on a beach may be the only
true happiness I have in life.
Yes I sometimes feel sad for those who have nowhere to 'go back to'
when i moved to the city i took it for granted that every maori knew their
waka their tribe etc. I was stunned by the amount that have no idea what
their tribe and honestly couldn't give a flying f^&k about where they come
from. lotsa the ones i met that were like this usually drank alot and were
associated with gangs.
Post by Judges1318
Your land may have been taken away by the rich, yet you wag your
finger at me, spitting and yelling: give me back my land, and bloody
honkies, off the beaches, it is mine!
no you have got me wrong, I want my land back sure, but i dont mind the
hawkes bay hunt club using it for the next aww 80 years or so, i'll be dead
in 80 years or i'll be 112, I personally think we should be making plans
that we will never see the fruits of. plans that will benefit the next
generations grandchildren. but if the land comes back to my descendants
great, the hunt club will probably be gone by then too hehe

If it doesn't come back and the hunt club is no more. then it will probably
be sold to foriegn investors or something. the point is, I trust myself
(more than others in my family who want to sell our land) more than the
government to make sure that the land is looked after and managed so that it
can be used for generations to come. Most people think of thing only in
terms of their lifetime, I am beginning to realise that change can take
generations and this is the sort of planning we need to survive as a planet.

personally I would never stop you going to the beach, unless there was some
sort of restriction in that area, and even then i would be doing it for your
safety, unless you were going to steal my ancestors bones from a cave or
pillage the seabed and leave an underwater desert. Those that would do this
are selfish (not shellfish) and are hindering forward progress, or they are
hurt and think that they can heal by hurting others.

when i was a boy we went to the beach up the coast somewhere and some guy
was going out surf casting, the locals said there is a tapu on the beach
still cos someone died there. the fisher was like ahhhh loada bullshit, yeah
he went out but he didn't come back, never found.
had he listened he'd be alive today.
Post by Judges1318
Well, our troubles may be the same, but instead of enlisting me to
fight with you, you have chosen to take me as your enemy. You have
chosen to take that little joy of living from me - the sun, sand
and splashing water.
No I am not your enemy, and I personally would never take that away from you
or anyone else.
in fact, when we eventually move back home from the city, I could take you
and your family to some beautiful river spots that very few people know
about if you're keen :O)

are you offering your services for enlistment? hehe
Post by Judges1318
Meanwhile, the rich laugh because they know they will be away long
before any harm happens to them. I am sure they all have at least
plans to move their wealth away, mind you, 2 million will buy you
an EU passport legally, but they probably have kept their "overseas
British" status anyway.
did you know that under the treaty we all used to have that same status?
govt did away with that years ago.
Post by Judges1318
So, when the shit hits the fan, brace yourself. Those who have something
to lose, will have gone. Those you will have to face will have nothing
to lose, and nowhere to go.
great! cant wait, then hopefully we can get to work :O)
actually i have been feeling not so nice about what is happening in this
country, i guess thats why i came in here
grimly bubble
2004-08-14 07:05:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
Post by Judges1318
Indeed, if you want to keep peace, kill them all, and then there
is peace. If you can get a fine booty out of it, even better.
I think today's world leaders are very much on those Maori lines.
there is one essential difference here
Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama did not sign any form of contract with Tchat
Henu
before conquering them.
The English crown did make such a contract saying that Maori were equal
citizens
and therefore subject to the rule of law.
Maori should have honoured the fucking treaty then shouldn't thye?
David
2004-08-14 07:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by grimly bubble
Maori should have honoured the fucking treaty then shouldn't thye?
There was no treaty in 1835.
Bobs
2004-08-12 21:44:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D¹Oliveiro
But the Mäori themselves were colonists, were they not?
No. There was nobody to colonise.
What's the got to do with anything? They were colonists.
Post by Tilly
The Morioris were only located in the
Chathams.
So when humans finally put a colony on the moon they aren't colonists
because no one is there? Interesting logic you have.
Post by Tilly
Tilly
--
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.734 / Virus Database: 488 - Release Date: 4/08/04
--
"In his big victory speech last night, Senator Kerry said that he wanted
to defeat George Bush and the 'economy of privilege.' Then he hugged his
wife, Teresa, heir to the multi-million dollar Heinz food fortune." —Jay
Leno

"An Internet rumor claims that John Kerry had an affair with a young
woman. When asked if this was similar to the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, a
spokesman said 'Close, but no cigar.'" —Jimmy Fallon
tangata maori
2004-08-12 22:58:45 UTC
Permalink
and flawed logic you have.

do you think that you colonised aotearoa because the people living there
were not quite human?

Maori did not colonise aotearoa as each group that came was an individual
nation that was not answerable to rulers from their homeland.

I would like to see these individual nations become the Unites States of
Aotearoa one day.
Post by Bobs
So when humans finally put a colony on the moon they aren't colonists
because no one is there? Interesting logic you have.
well that depends, if they exercise their tinorangatiratanga and governed
themselves without being ruled by earth or relying on earth to feed them
then of course they are not a colony. the moon would not be colonised, it
would become inhabited and they would have to be living in harmony with the
moon.

however, if an alien race decided to take over the moon , tell the
earthlings what language to speak, what clothes to wear, how they should
think, what belief system they should have, made the earthlings live on the
dark side of the moon, made rules that disadvanted the earthlings, then I
guess that would be colonisation. furthermore, if the earthlings tried to
resist them, or assert their own tinorangatiratanga,

the aliens might say, "Hey look, thats in the past, forget about it and get
on with it, and besides, look at what we gave you, warp drive,
teleportation, telepathy, the dinner pill, I suppose you'd like to go back
to solid rocket boosters *chuckle* speaking with your mouth, walking, and
eating dead stuff? anyway aren't we supposed to be one moon?"

If that was the case would YOU fight for YOUR and YOUR CHILDRENS
tinorangatiratanga?

I apologise to any non-terrestrials on this list as I know that you would
not be so primitive and reptilian in your thinking, I just used it as an
example to try and help help these others understand.

here is some homework for you others.

--1-- construct 1 sentence for each of the following words.

Colony

Colonial

Allodial

in-alienable

tinorangatiratanga

--2-- draw a picture of colonists arriving in a land that already has
inhabitants, including a list of what things you think the colonists might
bring with them?

--3-- construct a plan of how New Zealand could colonise Australia.


--4--

Answer the following questions,

Is America a colony of britian?

Is Aotearoa a colony of Rarotonga?

is mexico a colony of spain?

is tahiti still a colony of france?

do i need to cite more examples?

---------------------------------

Aotearoa was not colonised by the ancient polynesians, it was discovered and
then populated.

Aotearoa was colonised by the british because they still relied on the
motherland to tell them what to do, and for supplies as they did not know
how to live in balance with their earth mother (they didn't even recognise
her) and also because Aotearoa was already inhabited by humans.

p.s. Answers to number --4--

no
no
no
no
no
Redbaiter
2004-08-12 23:32:31 UTC
Permalink
tangata maori says
Post by tangata maori
however, if an alien race decided to take over the moon , tell the
earthlings what language to speak, what clothes to wear, how they should
think, what belief system they should have, made the earthlings live on the
dark side of the moon, made rules that disadvanted the earthlings, then I
guess that would be colonisation. furthermore, if the earthlings tried to
resist them, or assert their own tinorangatiratanga,
Spare me the commie revisionist propaganda..

That Goebbells crap cuts no ice here...

Here's a bro who tells it like it is..

(letter to the Editor, Christchurch Press)

Sir — The misguided visions of certain politicians who are
convinced that settling Maori grievances will enhance racial
harmony, are a manifestation of the blind leading the blind. I
do concede that Maori lost land that they had neither the will
nor skill to optimise, other than grow puha on. But over the
decades we've been reimbursed many times — i.e., more than
doubled our life span, acquired an education (for those who
wanted it), got houses that keep the rain and cold out, and high
technology conducive to our everyday needs and wants, etc. The
Maori who contribute very little to improved economic growth in
this country continue to grizzle. If the civil libertarians want
racial harmony, I suggest they ignore "grizzling" Maori, or I
can anticipate a back lash.

Martin Te Heu Heu.

Interview with Free Radical-

"If you guys hadn't come to New Zealand," Te Heuheu told TFR,
"It's highly likely that Maori wouldn't have survived. We were
stoneage. We were illiterate, and that's the truth. We'd just
about eaten everything there was to eat; the moa was already
extinct, and we were eating each other. We would have killed
each other off. Now we have the best of everything in the world.
While Maori are running around screaming that we've been ripped
off [by the European] they're taking advantage of high-tech this
and high-tech that. They're demanding millions of dollars in
compensation, plus apologies, and white liberals are sucked into
this bullshit."

Martin Te Heuheu is no pseudo-Mordi. His father, Rongomai Te
Heuheu who died last year, was the brother of Sir Hepi Te
Heuheu, paramount chief of Ngati Tuwharetoa, descendant of
Tukino Te Heuheu who in the late 1880s deeded the mountains
Ruapehu, Tongariro and Ngauruhoe to New Zealand as a national
park.
--
Redbaiter
In the leftist's lexicon, the lowest of the low

"Leftists- The enemies of classic liberalism"
tangata maori
2004-08-14 01:52:21 UTC
Permalink
--
Post by Redbaiter
Sir — The misguided visions of certain politicians who are
convinced that settling Maori grievances will enhance racial
harmony,
All I want is my stolen property returned
Post by Redbaiter
are a manifestation of the blind leading the blind. I
do concede that Maori lost land that they had neither the will
nor skill to optimise, other than grow puha on.
my ancestor ran a farm of 6000 sheep and had built 5 large houses for his
family.

the local european farmers complained to the government that these mowries
were taking their jobs away and my ancestor was put in prison for a year
while his family was raped murdered his land confiscated. when he was
allowed to return he found pakeha living in his houses and his family cut by
about half. He could have quietly murdered the squatters but instead tried
the legal avenue. it is all documented in the land court.
Post by Redbaiter
But over the
decades we've been reimbursed many times — i.e., more than
doubled our life span, acquired an education (for those who
wanted it), got houses that keep the rain and cold out, and high
technology conducive to our everyday needs and wants, etc. The
Maori who contribute very little to improved economic growth in
this country continue to grizzle. If the civil libertarians want
racial harmony, I suggest they ignore "grizzling" Maori, or I
can anticipate a back lash.
Martin Te Heu Heu.
From what I have been told many tuwharetoa are selling their land as fast as
they can drink it.
Post by Redbaiter
"If you guys hadn't come to New Zealand," Te Heuheu told TFR,
"It's highly likely that Maori wouldn't have survived. We were
stoneage. We were illiterate, and that's the truth. We'd just
about eaten everything there was to eat; the moa was already
extinct, and we were eating each other. We would have killed
each other off. Now we have the best of everything in the world.
While Maori are running around screaming that we've been ripped
off [by the European] they're taking advantage of high-tech this
and high-tech that. They're demanding millions of dollars in
compensation, plus apologies, and white liberals are sucked into
this bullshit."
the ignorant red necks love people like this, and take their word as if they
were god. besides which he can only speak for his own tribe.
Post by Redbaiter
Martin Te Heuheu is no pseudo-Mordi. His father, Rongomai Te
Heuheu who died last year, was the brother of Sir Hepi Te
Heuheu, paramount chief of Ngati Tuwharetoa, descendant of
Tukino Te Heuheu who in the late 1880s deeded the mountains
Ruapehu, Tongariro and Ngauruhoe to New Zealand as a national
park.
I bet his great great great grand daddy is turning in his grave.
superweta
2004-08-13 04:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by tangata maori
and flawed logic you have.
do you think that you colonised aotearoa because the people living there
were not quite human?
Well given the fact that the Maori culture/religious beliefs are very
primitive,they didn't have a written language, had no 'real science'
to speak of. I wouldn't use the term "not quite human" but definitely
the terms "backwards", "primitive" etc...
Post by tangata maori
Maori did not colonise aotearoa as each group that came was an individual
nation that was not answerable to rulers from their homeland.
What about the Moriori ? Didn't the Maori come over and butcher them ?
Post by tangata maori
Aotearoa was not colonised by the ancient polynesians, it was discovered and
then populated.
Shouldn't lump all the polynesians in one basket, Polynesian is a term
which refers to a collection of races.
Using your argument you could say, "Aotearoa was not colonised by the
British, it was discovered by the human race then populated.
Post by tangata maori
Aotearoa was colonised by the british because they still relied on the
motherland to tell them what to do, and for supplies as they did not know
how to live in balance with their earth mother (they didn't even recognise
her) and also because Aotearoa was already inhabited by humans.
Colonisation is just a word, who cares what it means. The Moriori were
here first, then the Maori, then the British, then the
Indians/Chinese/...etc..
Please stop the BS about Maori living in balance with mother earth,
they pretty much decimated the Moa.
Maori are not the only race that have a connection with Mother Earth,
if you go back in time in European history you'll find that the Pakeha
also had the same respect for the land that some Maori's do now (eg.
the druids of stonehenge, pagan rituals etc...) We have thousands of
years of culture behind us, compared to the 1000 or so that Maori
have. If the Maori's want to learn real culture they should look at
European culture. Sadly the Pakeha in NZ seemed to have forgotten
their roots.
Post by tangata maori
p.s. Answers to number --4--
no
no
no
no
no
tangata maori
2004-08-14 01:28:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by superweta
Post by tangata maori
and flawed logic you have.
do you think that you colonised aotearoa because the people living there
were not quite human?
Well given the fact that the Maori culture/religious beliefs are very
primitive,they didn't have a written language, had no 'real science'
to speak of. I wouldn't use the term "not quite human" but definitely
the terms "backwards", "primitive" etc...
Post by tangata maori
Maori did not colonise aotearoa as each group that came was an individual
nation that was not answerable to rulers from their homeland.
What about the Moriori ? Didn't the Maori come over and butcher them ?
Moriori are a previous wave of migration from 'roughly' the same place.
maori also they butchered other maori, and british, and the british
butchered maori, aboriginies, native americans, arabs, scottish irish yada
yada yada, whats your point? are you trying to justify illegal confiscation
of land? Or do you really care about moriori? if so, what are you doing
about it?
Post by superweta
Post by tangata maori
Aotearoa was not colonised by the ancient polynesians, it was discovered and
then populated.
Shouldn't lump all the polynesians in one basket, Polynesian is a term
which refers to a collection of races.
Using your argument you could say, "Aotearoa was not colonised by the
British, it was discovered by the human race then populated.
now you are really showing your ignorance, how many distinct races make up
polynesia?
1. polynesian, 2.....
Post by superweta
Post by tangata maori
Aotearoa was colonised by the british because they still relied on the
motherland to tell them what to do, and for supplies as they did not know
how to live in balance with their earth mother (they didn't even recognise
her) and also because Aotearoa was already inhabited by humans.
Colonisation is just a word, who cares what it means.
you might as well say the treaty is just paper who cares what it says.

the law is just a book who cares what it says

the colonised i guess cos we have to live it.

my ancestors had a huge tract of land confiscated to build a railway that
went straight into the ruahine ranges??? it never was never built and i
could resign myself to giving up and not ever getting that land back. but i
won't, it belongs to my unborn great great great great great grand children.
as it is the Hawkes bay hunt club and various farmers do whatever they like
on this land. Why should my rights over land that was stolen from us be
extinguished, and why should some one else be allowed to collect rent on
something that they stole?
Post by superweta
The Moriori were
here first, then the Maori,
then the British, then the
You continue to lump the two tribes now known as moriori together in one
group and then

lump the other hundreds (or whatever the number) of other hapu / tribes in
another group that you call 'maori'?

can you tell me the distinct physical and cultural differences physical and
cultural between these two groups?

are these differences any greater then the differences within them?
Post by superweta
Indians/Chinese/...etc..
Please stop the BS about Maori living in balance with mother earth,
they pretty much decimated the Moa.
Maori are not the only race that have a connection with Mother Earth,
if you go back in time in European history you'll find that the Pakeha
also had the same respect for the land that some Maori's do now (eg.
the druids of stonehenge, pagan rituals etc...) We have thousands of
years of culture behind us, compared to the 1000 or so that Maori
have. If the Maori's want to learn real culture they should look at
European culture. Sadly the Pakeha in NZ seemed to have forgotten
their roots.
.

yes HAD is the operative word. and it is not bs.

the moa was a mistake which they learned from. had they known that the moa
were such slow breeders they may have treated them differently and managed
them better, they came from small islands and the bounty of aotearoa must
have seemed infinite to them at first.

after the moa disappeared, they learned how to manage what the land and
forests provided by placing restrictions on which animals could be hunted /
collected in which part of the year.

if they had not lived in some sort of balance with nature, then all the
species would have been decimated and they would not have been able to
survive 1,000 years the way they did.

if you were presented with the facts would you look the other way?

the two main points of your argument are moriori and the moa. is that all
you have?
EMB
2004-08-14 01:44:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by tangata maori
my ancestors had a huge tract of land confiscated to build a railway that
went straight into the ruahine ranges??? it never was never built and i
could resign myself to giving up and not ever getting that land back. but i
won't, it belongs to my unborn great great great great great grand children.
as it is the Hawkes bay hunt club and various farmers do whatever they like
on this land. Why should my rights over land that was stolen from us be
extinguished, and why should some one else be allowed to collect rent on
something that they stole?
And you've had *nothing* back in return? None of the benefits of a
modern society and technological advances that would never have happened
had your stonge age ancestors been left alone. Sure, the "confiscation"
may not have been fair - get used to it - "Life's Not Fair".
--
EMB
change two to number to reply
tangata maori
2004-08-14 02:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by EMB
Post by tangata maori
my ancestors had a huge tract of land confiscated to build a railway that
went straight into the ruahine ranges??? it never was never built and i
could resign myself to giving up and not ever getting that land back. but i
won't, it belongs to my unborn great great great great great grand children.
as it is the Hawkes bay hunt club and various farmers do whatever they like
on this land. Why should my rights over land that was stolen from us be
extinguished, and why should some one else be allowed to collect rent on
something that they stole?
And you've had *nothing* back in return? None of the benefits of a
modern society and technological advances that would never have happened
had your stonge age ancestors been left alone.
what price have you paid for these benefits?

My ancestors would probably have eventually began trading with other
nations using their navigation skills and waka that were faster than any
other sea vessels of the time. and at least I would have still have my land.

another ancestor ancestor of mine was a sucessful international trader,
selling the products that his family grew, they did the same thing to him
chucked him in jail and confiscated his schooner.
Post by EMB
Sure, the "confiscation"
may not have been fair - get used to it - "Life's Not Fair".
No, I wont get used to it. It was stolen and I want it returned. Can't you
understand that?

Life doesn't determine what is fair , people do. and it gets tired and the
'not fairs' were only applied to my ancestors and not the euro farmers that
had a windfall on my ancestors land.
grimly bubble
2004-08-14 06:48:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by tangata maori
what price have you paid for these benefits?
Listening to you and a constant line of your peers bleating this victim
garbage interminably is one cost.
Post by tangata maori
My ancestors would probably have eventually began trading with other
nations using their navigation skills and waka that were faster than any
other sea vessels of the time. and at least I would have still have my land.
But they didn't, they dropped their own traditions like a hot brick as soon
as a better safer method arrived, what have you paid for the use of these
better navigation techniques and safer boat building?
Post by tangata maori
another ancestor ancestor of mine was a sucessful international trader,
selling the products that his family grew, they did the same thing to him
chucked him in jail and confiscated his schooner.
Ho...bloody hum.......cheer up, he was pissed, slept under a wagon wheel
then was run over by his grandson who didn't notice him there.
Post by tangata maori
Post by EMB
Sure, the "confiscation"
may not have been fair - get used to it - "Life's Not Fair".
No, I wont get used to it. It was stolen and I want it returned. Can't you
understand that?
GO FIND SOMEONE WHO CARES, WHO WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE or stop wasting your
life, bandwith and readers time by posting your victim crap.
Post by tangata maori
Life doesn't determine what is fair , people do. and it gets tired and the
'not fairs' were only applied to my ancestors and not the euro farmers that
had a windfall on my ancestors land.
tangata maori
2004-08-14 08:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by grimly bubble
Post by tangata maori
what price have you paid for these benefits?
Listening to you and a constant line of your peers bleating this victim
garbage interminably is one cost.
i suggest you block my email address from your inbox or refrain from
downloading them
Post by grimly bubble
Post by tangata maori
My ancestors would probably have eventually began trading with other
nations using their navigation skills and waka that were faster than any
other sea vessels of the time. and at least I would have still have my
land.
But they didn't, they dropped their own traditions like a hot brick as soon
as a better safer method arrived, what have you paid for the use of these
better navigation techniques and safer boat building?
My lands were stolen even though I dont use these things you talk about
Post by grimly bubble
Post by tangata maori
another ancestor ancestor of mine was a sucessful international trader,
selling the products that his family grew, they did the same thing to him
chucked him in jail and confiscated his schooner.
Ho...bloody hum.......cheer up, he was pissed, slept under a wagon wheel
then was run over by his grandson who didn't notice him there.
that hurts, i'd never sink to your level
Post by grimly bubble
Post by tangata maori
Post by EMB
Sure, the "confiscation"
may not have been fair - get used to it - "Life's Not Fair".
No, I wont get used to it. It was stolen and I want it returned. Can't you
understand that?
GO FIND SOMEONE WHO CARES, WHO WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE or stop wasting your
life, bandwith and readers time by posting your victim crap.
lol yet you waste you bandwidth life and time by reading and then replying
to me haha
David
2004-08-14 03:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by EMB
And you've had *nothing* back in return? None of the benefits of a
modern society and technological advances that would never have happened
had your stonge age ancestors been left alone. Sure, the "confiscation"
may not have been fair - get used to it - "Life's Not Fair".
Just say for example someone came round to your house put a gun to the head
of one of your family and shot them.

Or even came round and pinched all your chooks.

Would you then say- well lifes not fair, get a life, harden up.

Come on be honest about this.

-D
grimly bubble
2004-08-14 06:50:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
Post by EMB
And you've had *nothing* back in return? None of the benefits of a
modern society and technological advances that would never have happened
had your stonge age ancestors been left alone. Sure, the "confiscation"
may not have been fair - get used to it - "Life's Not Fair".
Just say for example someone came round to your house put a gun to the head
of one of your family and shot them.
Or even came round and pinched all your chooks.
Would you then say- well lifes not fair, get a life, harden up.
Come on be honest about this.
-D
I have been burgled 5 times, one home emptied almost totally, I have had my
car stolen, yacht broken into, small boat stolen and despite some of the
crims being caught I have yet to get one my property returned. That is the
Kiwi way, insurance works well for the crim and the victim.
David
2004-08-14 06:58:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by grimly bubble
I have been burgled 5 times, one home emptied almost totally, I have had my
car stolen, yacht broken into, small boat stolen and despite some of the
crims being caught I have yet to get one my property returned. That is the
Kiwi way, insurance works well for the crim and the victim.
Ok, and what a bad run yu've had!

Ok you have claimed on insurance.

Whats wrong with Maori claiming on insurance they signed for in 1840?
John B
2004-08-14 08:37:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
Post by grimly bubble
I have been burgled 5 times, one home emptied almost totally, I have
had my car stolen, yacht broken into, small boat stolen and despite
some of the crims being caught I have yet to get one my property
returned. That is the Kiwi way, insurance works well for the crim
and the victim.
Ok, and what a bad run yu've had!
Ok you have claimed on insurance.
Whats wrong with Maori claiming on insurance they signed for in 1840?
That sounds good. Can I claim on insurance my great great grandparents had too?

--
Nothing that I say here is my final answer. I'm happy to revise,
retune, or reverse myself anytime I learn something new.

John B
David
2004-08-14 08:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B
That sounds good. Can I claim on insurance my great great grandparents had too?
Yes, it depends entirely on the policy they took out :>)
tangata maori
2004-08-14 08:59:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by grimly bubble
I have been burgled 5 times, one home emptied almost totally, I have had my
car stolen, yacht broken into, small boat stolen and despite some of the
crims being caught I have yet to get one my property returned. That is the
Kiwi way, insurance works well for the crim and the victim.
sorry to hear about your misfortune.
how would you feel if you knew all that stuff was right being stockpiled
next door but you would never get it back or be paid insurance?

Tarla
2004-08-13 04:06:33 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:58:45 +1200, tangata maori
Post by tangata maori
and flawed logic you have.
do you think that you colonised aotearoa because the people living there
were not quite human?
Maori did not colonise aotearoa as each group that came was an individual
nation that was not answerable to rulers from their homeland.
I would like to see these individual nations become the Unites States of
Aotearoa one day.
Jesus Christ, do you just adore bureaucracy for its own sake? How much
government do 4 million people require?
--
Tarla
****
"...I'd rather be anything but ordinary, please."

Avril Lavigne
tangata maori
2004-08-13 20:28:43 UTC
Permalink
--
Organization: Little Sisters of the Perpetually Juicy
Newsgroups: nz.general,nz.politics,nz.soc.maori
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:06:33 +1200
Subject: Re: hey a Luigi Who's indigenous? test your knowledge
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:58:45 +1200, tangata maori
Post by tangata maori
and flawed logic you have.
do you think that you colonised aotearoa because the people living there
were not quite human?
Maori did not colonise aotearoa as each group that came was an individual
nation that was not answerable to rulers from their homeland.
I would like to see these individual nations become the Unites States of
Aotearoa one day.
Jesus Christ, do you just adore bureaucracy for its own sake? How much
government do 4 million people require?
central government and local government
Tarla
2004-08-13 23:56:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:28:43 +1200, tangata maori
Post by tangata maori
Post by Tarla
Post by tangata maori
and flawed logic you have.
do you think that you colonised aotearoa because the people living there
were not quite human?
Maori did not colonise aotearoa as each group that came was an individual
nation that was not answerable to rulers from their homeland.
I would like to see these individual nations become the Unites States of
Aotearoa one day.
Jesus Christ, do you just adore bureaucracy for its own sake? How much
government do 4 million people require?
central government and local government
For a number of States? The population of NZ would fit nicely into any
ONE of the US or Australian States. We don't need a breakdown into
States.
--
Tarla
****
"...I'd rather be anything but ordinary, please."

Avril Lavigne
Dave Joll
2004-08-14 01:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tarla
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:28:43 +1200, tangata maori
Post by tangata maori
Post by Tarla
Jesus Christ, do you just adore bureaucracy for its own sake? How much
government do 4 million people require?
central government and local government
For a number of States? The population of NZ would fit nicely into any
ONE of the US or Australian States. We don't need a breakdown into
States.
New Zealand used to be governed on a federal model.
It was ditched in the mid 1870s and isn't missed.
Efficent communications killed it.
Bobs
2004-08-14 02:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by tangata maori
and flawed logic you have.
do you think that you colonised aotearoa because the people living there
were not quite human?
What did you get that from?
Post by tangata maori
Maori did not colonise aotearoa as each group that came was an individual
nation that was not answerable to rulers from their homeland.
A nation?? They were tribes.
Post by tangata maori
I would like to see these individual nations become the Unites States of
Aotearoa one day.
They were stone aged tribes who couldn't even invent a wheel...and here
you want them to model themselves off the United States?
Post by tangata maori
Post by Bobs
So when humans finally put a colony on the moon they aren't colonists
because no one is there? Interesting logic you have.
well that depends, if they exercise their tinorangatiratanga and governed
themselves without being ruled by earth or relying on earth to feed them
then of course they are not a colony. the moon would not be colonised, it
would become inhabited and they would have to be living in harmony with the
moon.
The first human colony on the moon will be a joint venture by many
nations, but it will still be a colony. And the moon wouldn't have any
people on it before that event either.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=colony

Look at definition number 3. You don't need to be under the sway of a
foreign power to be a colony. You just need to share the same cultural
and ethnic origin and be removed from that influence. If a bunch of
humans hop on a space ship and fly off to some remote planet to live, it
would still be a human colony regardless if Earth was directing them or not.
Post by tangata maori
however, if an alien race decided to take over the moon , tell the
earthlings what language to speak, what clothes to wear, how they should
think, what belief system they should have, made the earthlings live on the
dark side of the moon, made rules that disadvanted the earthlings, then I
guess that would be colonisation. furthermore, if the earthlings tried to
resist them, or assert their own tinorangatiratanga,
the aliens might say, "Hey look, thats in the past, forget about it and get
on with it, and besides, look at what we gave you, warp drive,
teleportation, telepathy, the dinner pill, I suppose you'd like to go back
to solid rocket boosters *chuckle* speaking with your mouth, walking, and
eating dead stuff? anyway aren't we supposed to be one moon?"
If that was the case would YOU fight for YOUR and YOUR CHILDRENS
tinorangatiratanga?
No. If we joined them and were free people and could vote, get jobs, and
live like everyone else...then no I wouldn't.
Post by tangata maori
I apologise to any non-terrestrials on this list as I know that you would
not be so primitive and reptilian in your thinking, I just used it as an
example to try and help help these others understand.
here is some homework for you others.
--1-- construct 1 sentence for each of the following words.
Colony
Colonial
Allodial
in-alienable
tinorangatiratanga
--2-- draw a picture of colonists arriving in a land that already has
inhabitants, including a list of what things you think the colonists might
bring with them?
--3-- construct a plan of how New Zealand could colonise Australia.
Quite easily. Get on a boat and set up a colony. Australia may not
appreciate that however.
Post by tangata maori
--4--
Answer the following questions,
Is America a colony of britian?
Parts of it was.
Post by tangata maori
Is Aotearoa a colony of Rarotonga?
is mexico a colony of spain?
is tahiti still a colony of france?
do i need to cite more examples?
New Zealand is not a colony anymore either. It was though.
Post by tangata maori
---------------------------------
Aotearoa was not colonised by the ancient polynesians, it was discovered and
then populated.
It was discovered and colonized.
Post by tangata maori
Aotearoa was colonised by the british because they still relied on the
motherland to tell them what to do, and for supplies as they did not know
how to live in balance with their earth mother (they didn't even recognise
her)
Yes, because those Maori were "at one with mother earth" weren't they?
How are those Moa's going? What about those Giant Eagles?
Post by tangata maori
and also because Aotearoa was already inhabited by humans.
Irrelevant. Greeks set up colonies in Italy when ancient Italians were
there. Carthage set up colonies in Spain and so on.
Post by tangata maori
p.s. Answers to number --4--
no
no
no
no
no
--
"In his big victory speech last night, Senator Kerry said that he wanted
to defeat George Bush and the 'economy of privilege.' Then he hugged his
wife, Teresa, heir to the multi-million dollar Heinz food fortune." —Jay
Leno

"An Internet rumor claims that John Kerry had an affair with a young
woman. When asked if this was similar to the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, a
spokesman said 'Close, but no cigar.'" —Jimmy Fallon
grimly bubble
2004-08-05 00:38:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Carmen
ROTFL
This hilarious debate as the collective range of
NZ'ers scurry to define and redefine ourselves.
;-D
Well Carmen even Tariana said on Agenda on Saturday night ,that she had no
argument with Kiwis calling themswelves indigenous if they were born here
here and their relatives have been here for a couple of generations.She
agrees they have as much right to call themselves New Zealanders and
guardians of the land as Maori.
Tilly
It is quite so whether Aunty Tiriana reckons it is or not. I guess hse has
to cover her bases, she is after all half 'non maori'.
Post by Tilly
--
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.732 / Virus Database: 486 - Release Date: 30/07/04
Tarla
2004-08-05 02:10:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Carmen
ROTFL
This hilarious debate as the collective range of
NZ'ers scurry to define and redefine ourselves.
;-D
Well Carmen even Tariana said on Agenda on Saturday night ,that she had no
argument with Kiwis calling themswelves indigenous if they were born here
here and their relatives have been here for a couple of generations.She
agrees they have as much right to call themselves New Zealanders and
guardians of the land as Maori.
She'd better say that since she has a Yankee in the woodpile
Post by Tilly
Tilly
--
Tarla
****
If chopped, blended,liquefied and poured into large milkshake glasses,
the average human body would serve 16 people.
(Cannibal Quarterly)
Loading...