Post by Bay ManPost by David H ThornleyAgain, this is not what I've read elsewhere. Do you have a source?
Not readily available.
In other words, no, but you're not going to let that stop you.
Instead, you will repeat the general statements you made earlier,
claiming that the RAF had to be involved in the design process.
As it happens, there was no time for them to be involved in the
design process.
If they had been, the whole process would have been different.
The RAF would have been working with North American for years,
and there would have been no question of license-building P-40s.
Post by Bay ManPost by David H ThornleyThe British liked the P-40 enough to want to buy more of them.
It was inferior to the home produced front line planes. They did not
like it but needed planes and it was available.
It was inferior to the Spitfire. The Hurricane was also a front-line
plane.
Post by Bay ManPost by David H ThornleyAfter all, while it wasn't up to Spitfire standards,
it was a decent match for the Hurricane.
The Hurricane was outdated in 1940, and buying planes that are no
better, if anything less, than your outdated front line planes is a
distress purchase.
Wrong.
The Hurricane was the front-line plane in the Med until later in 1942.
I have not seen any accounts of Spitfires in the Med until then, but
plenty of accounts of Hurricanes and some of P-40s.
It makes a great deal of sense to buy planes that are as good as what
you're using in front-line service, and that's what the Brits were
doing. If they couldn't make the Desert Air Force qualitatively
equal to the Luftwaffe, and they couldn't without Spitfires, they
could at least make it bigger.
Obviously, if the British had been able to produce Spitfires in
any amount they desired, they would have had a lot less use for
Hurricanes, and also for the similarly good P-40s. That wasn't
the case; a quick look at Desert Air Force composition and
production figures will show that.
about the Mustang....
Post by Bay ManPost by David H ThornleyObviously, which says nothing about where the design came from.
It came from NA, with heavily influence and modification by the British
Air Ministry. The Air Ministry were at all levels of design and
testing.
Please tell me when the heck this occurred. It apparently didn't
occur before the Air Ministry approached North American. It could
not have occurred in the four months after the approach when the
first airframe was constructed, nor in the six months after the approach
when the first flying prototype was demonstrated. In what parallel
time stream did the Air Ministry do this?
NA were eager to make their own fighter and the Air Ministry
Post by Bay Mansaw this giving them an ideal opportunity to gain a superior fighter to
the outdated off-the-shelf types in the US - a fighter to the RAFs
requirements.
I've seen nothing to say the Air Ministry saw this as an ideal
opportunity for anything. They approached North American with
a proposal to build P-40s, and were met by a counterproposal.
They then gave a very short timespan to be convinced. Four months
to go from plans to complete aircraft is very short. Whether this
is because they were desperate for acceptable aircraft (and didn't
want to waste time) or had no confidence in NA is immaterial.
Post by Bay ManPost by David H ThornleyOf course, but again this has nothing to do with whose design it
was.
The initial design was NA, with heavy Air Ministry amendments to their
needs.
The initial design was North American, yes. It also had to be a
detailed design.
It was not a case of NA have a design under the counter, and the
Post by Bay ManAir Ministry said yes and walked away until the prototype came along.
Of course not; it was a case of North American having a design under
the counter, and the Air Ministry saying "Show me" and keeping an
eye on things.
Post by Bay ManIt doesn't work that way, on any plane ever made for any military. And
the urgency of getting a plane in a short timescale would mean the Air
Ministry made sure it was to their needs and worked. If a plane was
delivered that was a duck, heads would roll.
Right - which means that the Air Ministry had to keep an eye on the
aircraft. They didn't have time to influence the basic design in
any way, but they could monitor the aircraft and study the designs.
They could allow NA to hurry, without committing themselves to
a large purchase order.
Post by Bay ManPost by David H ThornleyIn other words, the Mustang was a US
design, initially marketed to
the British.
Not quite. An initial US design heavily amended by the Air Ministry at
design and testing stages.
Except that the design stage was before the Air Ministry had anything
to do with it. They could ask for detail changes, but nothing more.
Testing was presumably done after there was an airframe, and I would
imagine the Air Ministry would have been very interested.
Post by Bay ManPost by David H ThornleyPost by Bay ManThe whole radar technology was British and any US design initially based
on the UK designs.
Now there's a sweeping claim.
But true.
In which case you could presumably say what the British version of the
US radar was.
Every major power was working on radar at this time, some better than
others. The Brits had practical magnetron radar before anybody else,
and shared that with the US. However, that doesn't mean that there
was no independent radar development, and the SCR-270 that you claimed
was a pre-magnetron design.
Post by Bay ManPost by David H ThornleyTorpedo technology was Austro-Hungarian,
and any design was initially based on the Austro-Hungarian design.
Designed by a Englishman.
An Englishman was very much involved, true. However, it was to
Austro-Hungarian requirements for the Austro-Hungarian navy.
Since Whitehead had never built an automotive torpedo before,
presumably the Torpedo Ministry was involved in all stages of
design and testing. This line of reasoning actually works for
the torpedo, since it was an A-H initiative, and done in A-H
facilities with A-H supervision.
Post by Bay ManPost by David H ThornleyTurrets, warships powered only by steam, and the all-or-nothing
scheme of armor design were pioneered by the USN, so the King George
V class of battleship was a US design. See, I can do this too!
But very childishly.
No more childishly than you, and I'm actually providing some background
support. I'm pointing out specifics. You just claimed that US
radar was British, with absolutely nothing to support your claim except
either ignorance or arrogance, or possibly both.
Not to mention I omitted to mention: the first dreadnoughts were
ordered by the USN. (This is to say, the first orders that turned into
dreadnoughts; the first orders for dreadnoughts were, I believe,
Japanese, but they weren't able to complete them as such.)
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