OT: Bendy BEV

[Recliner]

Somehow, I don't think we'll be seeing these 27m long buses silently
snaking around London:

<https://www.metro-report.com/news/rolling-stock/single-view/view/byd-launches-longest-electric-bus.html>

[Someone Somewhere]

Post by Recliner
Somehow, I don't think we'll be seeing these 27m long buses silently
<https://www.metro-report.com/news/rolling-stock/single-view/view/byd-launches-longest-electric-bus.html>

Thank god - in central London it often seems that traffic lights are not
that much further apart almost guaranteeing that these behemouths will
end up strandeed across one or more sets...

[b***@px1_c_c7f7y3s2pl5.ac.uk]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 08:56:52 +0100

Post by Recliner

Post by Recliner
Somehow, I don't think we'll be seeing these 27m long buses silently

<https://www.metro-report.com/news/rolling-stock/single-view/view/byd-launches-
longest-electric-bus.html>
Thank god - in central London it often seems that traffic lights are not
that much further apart almost guaranteeing that these behemouths will
end up strandeed across one or more sets...

The traffic lights in london were deliberately set to cause traffic jams
by comrade ken. It seems no subsequent mayor has seen fit to reset them.

[Charles Ellson]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:20:15 +0000 (UTC),

Post by b***@px1_c_c7f7y3s2pl5.ac.uk
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 08:56:52 +0100

Post by Recliner

Post by Recliner
Somehow, I don't think we'll be seeing these 27m long buses silently

<https://www.metro-report.com/news/rolling-stock/single-view/view/byd-launches-
longest-electric-bus.html>
Thank god - in central London it often seems that traffic lights are not
that much further apart almost guaranteeing that these behemouths will
end up strandeed across one or more sets...

The traffic lights in london were deliberately set to cause traffic jams
by comrade ken. It seems no subsequent mayor has seen fit to reset them.

It depends on your route. Many (e.g. A41 Hampstead to Hendon) will
give you a fairly clear run in both peak directions if you keep away
from the speed limit. Where that tends to fall down is on roads with
no particular peak direction or in light traffic at weekends although
around 2-5am it becomes fairly clear that many lights are working on
an approach-release method with some observeable as all-routes-red
with no traffic present.

[ColinR]

Post by Charles Ellson
It depends on your route. Many (e.g. A41 Hampstead to Hendon) will
give you a fairly clear run in both peak directions if you keep away
from the speed limit. Where that tends to fall down is on roads with
no particular peak direction or in light traffic at weekends although
around 2-5am it becomes fairly clear that many lights are working on
an approach-release method with some observeable as all-routes-red
with no traffic present.

All well and good until you drive something that does not trigger the
lights (many years ago used a Reliant three wheeler with fibreglass body
and aluminium chassis - traffic lights never changed!)

[Charles Ellson]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 20:25:56 +0100, ColinR

Post by ColinR

Post by Charles Ellson
It depends on your route. Many (e.g. A41 Hampstead to Hendon) will
give you a fairly clear run in both peak directions if you keep away
from the speed limit. Where that tends to fall down is on roads with
no particular peak direction or in light traffic at weekends although
around 2-5am it becomes fairly clear that many lights are working on
an approach-release method with some observeable as all-routes-red
with no traffic present.

All well and good until you drive something that does not trigger the
lights (many years ago used a Reliant three wheeler with fibreglass body
and aluminium chassis - traffic lights never changed!)

My pedal cycle used to trigger the detectors (loops or radar) years
ago. What I have found currently with the same set of lights is that
if a vehicle has not approached an entry route more than around ten
seconds before the next entry route in the sequence it gets ignored
and I have to wait for the lights to complete the next cycle. Other
lights fairly clearly fail to work with a single vehicle whether a
bike or a large van.

[Someone Somewhere]

Post by ColinR

Post by Charles Ellson
It depends on your route. Many (e.g. A41 Hampstead to Hendon) will
give you a fairly clear run in both peak directions if you keep away
from the speed limit. Where that tends to fall down is on roads with
no particular peak direction or in light traffic at weekends although
around 2-5am it becomes fairly clear that many lights are working on
an approach-release method with some observeable as all-routes-red
with no traffic present.

All well and good until you drive something that does not trigger the
lights (many years ago used a Reliant three wheeler with fibreglass body
and aluminium chassis - traffic lights never changed!)

I think that's fair enough, and presumably a design principle to help
inform the confused car purchaser.

[Basil Jet]

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Charles Ellson
around 2-5am it becomes fairly clear that many lights are working on

an approach-release method with some observeable as all-routes-red
with no traffic present.

Where's that? I immediately noticed it in Stockholm in the 1990s, but
I've never seen it in England.

[Charles Ellson]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Charles Ellson
around 2-5am it becomes fairly clear that many lights are working on

an approach-release method with some observeable as all-routes-red
with no traffic present.

Where's that? I immediately noticed it in Stockholm in the 1990s, but
I've never seen it in England.

I can't remember where the all-routes-red ones were (somewhere between
Aylesbury and Harrow?) but there are several between Battersea and
Harrow which consistently change to a favourable route when approached
in the early hours if there is no other vehicle present. OTOH the
nearest set of lights to me clearly doesn't do so as it defaults to
west-east if there is no N-S traffic but still goes through the entire
long-winded sequence even if only one vehicle has approached from N or
S and is long gone. The same set also seems to be coordinated with
another set half a mile west which will be green for any traffic which
has passed westbound at the first-mentioned set at c.20+ mph.

[Anna Noyd-Dryver]

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Charles Ellson
around 2-5am it becomes fairly clear that many lights are working on

an approach-release method with some observeable as all-routes-red
with no traffic present.

Where's that? I immediately noticed it in Stockholm in the 1990s, but
I've never seen it in England.

There’s a set on one of my routes to work through Bristol. Currently,
however, one of the sensors is faulty and the lights are always green for
the minor road at 2-5am.

Post by Charles Ellson
I can't remember where the all-routes-red ones were (somewhere between
Aylesbury and Harrow?) but there are several between Battersea and
Harrow which consistently change to a favourable route when approached
in the early hours if there is no other vehicle present. OTOH the
nearest set of lights to me clearly doesn't do so as it defaults to
west-east if there is no N-S traffic but still goes through the entire
long-winded sequence even if only one vehicle has approached from N or
S and is long gone.

There’s a set in Bristol city centre which in the early hours of the
morning, seem to skip the sequence and turn green for one particular route
whenever a vehicle arrives.

Post by Charles Ellson
The same set also seems to be coordinated with
another set half a mile west which will be green for any traffic which
has passed westbound at the first-mentioned set at c.20+ mph.

The first set I mentioned (usually all-red at 2-5am) seem to trigger the
next set too.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

[James Heaton]

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Charles Ellson
around 2-5am it becomes fairly clear that many lights are working on

an approach-release method with some observeable as all-routes-red
with no traffic present.

Where's that? I immediately noticed it in Stockholm in the 1990s, but
I've never seen it in England.

There’s a set on one of my routes to work through Bristol. Currently,
however, one of the sensors is faulty and the lights are always green for
the minor road at 2-5am.

Post by Charles Ellson
I can't remember where the all-routes-red ones were (somewhere between
Aylesbury and Harrow?) but there are several between Battersea and
Harrow which consistently change to a favourable route when approached
in the early hours if there is no other vehicle present. OTOH the
nearest set of lights to me clearly doesn't do so as it defaults to
west-east if there is no N-S traffic but still goes through the entire
long-winded sequence even if only one vehicle has approached from N or
S and is long gone.

There’s a set in Bristol city centre which in the early hours of the
morning, seem to skip the sequence and turn green for one particular route
whenever a vehicle arrives.

Post by Charles Ellson
The same set also seems to be coordinated with
another set half a mile west which will be green for any traffic which
has passed westbound at the first-mentioned set at c.20+ mph.

The first set I mentioned (usually all-red at 2-5am) seem to trigger the
next set too.

A149 Heacham cross is the same. Major road is King's Lynn to Hunstanton,
with minor to Heacham village and Sedgeford. When approached at odd hours
i.e. night time, the lights are invariably red from whichever direction, but
rapidly clear to green if no other traffic.

James

[Certes]

A149 Heacham cross is the same.  Major road is King's Lynn to
Hunstanton, with minor to Heacham village and Sedgeford.  When
approached at odd hours i.e. night time, the lights are invariably red
from whichever direction, but rapidly clear to green if no other traffic.

That's great as long as the sensors are working; otherwise I assume you
have to choose between driving through on red or waiting until 5am.

[James Heaton]

Post by Certes

Post by James Heaton
A149 Heacham cross is the same. Major road is King's Lynn to Hunstanton,
with minor to Heacham village and Sedgeford. When approached at odd
hours i.e. night time, the lights are invariably red from whichever
direction, but rapidly clear to green if no other traffic.

That's great as long as the sensors are working; otherwise I assume you
have to choose between driving through on red or waiting until 5am.

I've never been there when it happened, nor have I seen it referred to in
the local press.

So no idea really!

James

[Anna Noyd-Dryver]

Post by James Heaton

Post by Certes

Post by James Heaton
A149 Heacham cross is the same. Major road is King's Lynn to Hunstanton,
with minor to Heacham village and Sedgeford. When approached at odd
hours i.e. night time, the lights are invariably red from whichever
direction, but rapidly clear to green if no other traffic.

That's great as long as the sensors are working; otherwise I assume you
have to choose between driving through on red or waiting until 5am.

I've never been there when it happened, nor have I seen it referred to in
the local press.
So no idea really!

*whoosh*

[James Heaton]

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by James Heaton

Post by Certes

Post by James Heaton
A149 Heacham cross is the same. Major road is King's Lynn to Hunstanton,
with minor to Heacham village and Sedgeford. When approached at odd
hours i.e. night time, the lights are invariably red from whichever
direction, but rapidly clear to green if no other traffic.

That's great as long as the sensors are working; otherwise I assume you
have to choose between driving through on red or waiting until 5am.

I've never been there when it happened, nor have I seen it referred to in
the local press.
So no idea really!

*whoosh*

Well I presume if it happened to me - I would drive through on red taking
great care.

But I presume Norfolk Traffic Control have a camera on them - they seem to
everywhere else - and would notice if they got stuck.

I think we've exhausted my very limited knowledge on the subject to be
honest.

James

[b***@o40kdyxa.org]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 07:39:51 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner
Somehow, I don't think we'll be seeing these 27m long buses silently
<https://www.metro-report.com/news/rolling-stock/single-view/view/byd-launches-
longest-electric-bus.html>

European bus builders have really been caught napping in the electric arena
by BYD. If they don't pull their fingers out they'll be history when diesel
buses are eventually banned from cities.

[Someone Somewhere]

Post by b***@o40kdyxa.org
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 07:39:51 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner
Somehow, I don't think we'll be seeing these 27m long buses silently
<https://www.metro-report.com/news/rolling-stock/single-view/view/byd-launches-
longest-electric-bus.html>

European bus builders have really been caught napping in the electric arena
by BYD. If they don't pull their fingers out they'll be history when diesel
buses are eventually banned from cities.

Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all electric
over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no more idling
outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more were)?
Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

[Recliner]

Post by Someone Somewhere

Post by b***@o40kdyxa.org
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 07:39:51 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner
Somehow, I don't think we'll be seeing these 27m long buses silently
<https://www.metro-report.com/news/rolling-stock/single-view/view/byd-launches-
longest-electric-bus.html>

European bus builders have really been caught napping in the electric arena
by BYD. If they don't pull their fingers out they'll be history when diesel
buses are eventually banned from cities.

Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all electric
over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no more idling
outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more were)?
Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

Yup, BYD technology in a body assembled by Alexander Dennis.

<https://www.alexander-dennis.com/media/news/2018/june/byd-adl-partnership-continues-the-electric-revolution-in-london-with-biggest-part-of-london-s-first-order-for-pure-electric-double-deckers/>

[Charles Ellson]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:46:47 +0000 (UTC),

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:30:32 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by Someone Somewhere

Post by b***@o40kdyxa.org
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 07:39:51 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner
Somehow, I don't think we'll be seeing these 27m long buses silently

<https://www.metro-report.com/news/rolling-stock/single-view/view/byd-launches-

Post by Someone Somewhere

Post by b***@o40kdyxa.org

Post by Recliner
longest-electric-bus.html>

European bus builders have really been caught napping in the electric arena
by BYD. If they don't pull their fingers out they'll be history when diesel
buses are eventually banned from cities.

Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all electric
over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no more idling
outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more were)?
Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

Yup, BYD technology in a body assembled by Alexander Dennis.
<https://www.alexander-dennis.com/media/news/2018/june/byd-adl-partnership-cont
inues-the-electric-revolution-in-london-with-biggest-part-of-london-s-first-ord
er-for-pure-electric-double-deckers/>

A partnership until it becomes more economic to assemble the buses in china.

There is a lot of fresh-air in a complete bus.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Someone Somewhere
Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all electric
over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no more idling
outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more were)?
Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

I was in Oxford Street last week at it was interesting that every Boris
Bus I saw was running on its diesel engine. Even at walking pace.

[Charles Ellson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Someone Somewhere
Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all electric
over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no more idling
outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more were)?
Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

I was in Oxford Street last week at it was interesting that every Boris
Bus I saw was running on its diesel engine. Even at walking pace.

The engine is always running at usually a constant speed on a Boris
Bus to charge the battery; AFAIAA they do/can not run in
battery-electric mode in service use but can use diesel-electric to
get home with a battery failure.
https://airqualitynews.com/2015/08/06/routemaster-bus-emissions-not-tested-in-diesel-only-mode/
Allegedly they can be more polluting than the buses which they
replaced -
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/faulty-new-routemasters-emit-74-more-harmful-particles-than-old-buses-10412858.html
Later buses seem to be mainly hybrids which use electric at low speed/
when stationary (which can be for quite a distance in some traffic
jams) and diesel once they are shifting and/or when the battery needs
charging.

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Charles Ellson
Later buses seem to be mainly hybrids which use electric at low speed/
when stationary (which can be for quite a distance in some traffic
jams) and diesel once they are shifting and/or when the battery needs
charging.

Edinburgh has quite a few of these. The engine stops when the bus
pulls up at a bus stop and then stays stopped as the bus moves off
again. The engine restarts after a few seconds. It feels as though
the system works more like KERS than like a proper smoothing out of the
energy demand. And if you're sitting over the engine the juddering as
it restarts is quite unpleasant.

Sam

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Charles Ellson
Later buses seem to be mainly hybrids which use electric at low speed/
when stationary (which can be for quite a distance in some traffic
jams) and diesel once they are shifting and/or when the battery needs
charging.

Edinburgh has quite a few of these.  The engine stops when the bus pulls
up at a bus stop and then stays stopped as the bus moves off again.  The
engine restarts after a few seconds.  It feels as though the system
works more like KERS than like a proper smoothing out of the energy
demand.  And if you're sitting over the engine the juddering as it
restarts is quite unpleasant.

Arriva round here have gone for the simpler option, standard car type
"eco" setting where coming to a standstill turns the engine off.
Restarts when the driver accelerates to leave the stop. Better than
nothing, especially as it stops the engine idling while the bus is
waiting time at a stop.

[Charles Ellson]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:02:28 +0100, Graeme Wall

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Charles Ellson
Later buses seem to be mainly hybrids which use electric at low speed/
when stationary (which can be for quite a distance in some traffic
jams) and diesel once they are shifting and/or when the battery needs
charging.

Edinburgh has quite a few of these.  The engine stops when the bus pulls
up at a bus stop and then stays stopped as the bus moves off again.  The
engine restarts after a few seconds.  It feels as though the system
works more like KERS than like a proper smoothing out of the energy
demand.  And if you're sitting over the engine the juddering as it
restarts is quite unpleasant.

Arriva round here have gone for the simpler option, standard car type
"eco" setting where coming to a standstill turns the engine off.
Restarts when the driver accelerates to leave the stop. Better than
nothing, especially as it stops the engine idling while the bus is
waiting time at a stop.

Used on some smaller single-deck buses with TfL, e.g. route H18/H19
using Alexander Dennis 200MMC Enviros (it says here -

[b***@7059mx9nzan71hev.gov.uk]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 02:38:18 +0100

Post by Charles Ellson
On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:02:28 +0100, Graeme Wall

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Charles Ellson
Later buses seem to be mainly hybrids which use electric at low speed/
when stationary (which can be for quite a distance in some traffic
jams) and diesel once they are shifting and/or when the battery needs
charging.

Edinburgh has quite a few of these.  The engine stops when the bus pulls
up at a bus stop and then stays stopped as the bus moves off again.  The
engine restarts after a few seconds.  It feels as though the system
works more like KERS than like a proper smoothing out of the energy
demand.  And if you're sitting over the engine the juddering as it
restarts is quite unpleasant.

Arriva round here have gone for the simpler option, standard car type
"eco" setting where coming to a standstill turns the engine off.
Restarts when the driver accelerates to leave the stop. Better than
nothing, especially as it stops the engine idling while the bus is
waiting time at a stop.

Used on some smaller single-deck buses with TfL, e.g. route H18/H19
using Alexander Dennis 200MMC Enviros (it says here -
http://youtu.be/XpjKuPfvqXQ

With the little buses its a simple stop start system, not a hybrid. I actually
travel on them quite a lot to visit Muswell Hill (almost no parking) and I
do wonder just how long the starter motors will last. Also when you start an
engine it kicks out unburnt and partially burnt fuel for a short moment which
can't do the emissions kit any good if thats happening potentially dozens or
even hundreds of times an hour.

Re the hybrid buses - I'm in agreement with the OP. They don't act like
normal hybrids, the diesel engines seem to run > 90% of the time even in slow
moving traffic which rather defeats the point of having them IMO.

[Roland Perry]

Post by b***@7059mx9nzan71hev.gov.uk
Re the hybrid buses - I'm in agreement with the OP.

Speaking as the OP in question, I think I might frame this.

Post by b***@7059mx9nzan71hev.gov.uk
They don't act like normal hybrids, the diesel engines seem to run >
90% of the time even in slow moving traffic which rather defeats the
point of having them IMO.

[Charles Ellson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by b***@7059mx9nzan71hev.gov.uk
Re the hybrid buses - I'm in agreement with the OP.

Speaking as the OP in question, I think I might frame this.

Post by b***@7059mx9nzan71hev.gov.uk
They don't act like normal hybrids, the diesel engines seem to run >
90% of the time even in slow moving traffic which rather defeats the
point of having them IMO.

I've not known one to go electric without first coming to a halt.
There is presumably also an inhibition on electric mode if the battery
voltage has dropped below a safe level, something that might already
have occurred earlier on in many places (e.g. Oxford Street?) which
are not near the end of a clear run where the battery has been
charged.

[Theo]

Post by Charles Ellson
I've not known one to go electric without first coming to a halt.
There is presumably also an inhibition on electric mode if the battery
voltage has dropped below a safe level, something that might already
have occurred earlier on in many places (e.g. Oxford Street?) which
are not near the end of a clear run where the battery has been
charged.

I don't know these particular ones, but there are advantages in a hybrid
transmission even if the engine is running - using electric power to prevent
the engine from having to rev as much on acceleration, throwing out
particulates, for example. The hybrid system means the engine can be used
in a more efficient way, even though it might not be capable of running on
pure electric for very long. Many hybrid cars only have a few miles of
pure-electric range, but the electrics help efficiency for the rest of the
time too.

Theo

[b***@x9wueh72oclkzml.gov.uk]

On 20 Apr 2019 09:47:44 +0100 (BST)

Post by Theo

Post by Charles Ellson
I've not known one to go electric without first coming to a halt.
There is presumably also an inhibition on electric mode if the battery
voltage has dropped below a safe level, something that might already
have occurred earlier on in many places (e.g. Oxford Street?) which
are not near the end of a clear run where the battery has been
charged.

I don't know these particular ones, but there are advantages in a hybrid
transmission even if the engine is running - using electric power to prevent
the engine from having to rev as much on acceleration, throwing out
particulates, for example. The hybrid system means the engine can be used
in a more efficient way, even though it might not be capable of running on
pure electric for very long. Many hybrid cars only have a few miles of
pure-electric range, but the electrics help efficiency for the rest of the
time too.

I don't think its unreasonable to expect a hybrid bus to pootle along a flat
level road such as Oxford Street on electric mode alone. The buses rarely
get over 20mph so unless the battery is almost dead I can't see a good reason
for the diesel engine to kick in.

[Charles Ellson]

On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 12:02:29 +0000 (UTC),

Post by b***@x9wueh72oclkzml.gov.uk
On 20 Apr 2019 09:47:44 +0100 (BST)

Post by Theo

Post by Charles Ellson
I've not known one to go electric without first coming to a halt.
There is presumably also an inhibition on electric mode if the battery
voltage has dropped below a safe level, something that might already
have occurred earlier on in many places (e.g. Oxford Street?) which
are not near the end of a clear run where the battery has been
charged.

I don't know these particular ones, but there are advantages in a hybrid
transmission even if the engine is running - using electric power to prevent
the engine from having to rev as much on acceleration, throwing out
particulates, for example. The hybrid system means the engine can be used
in a more efficient way, even though it might not be capable of running on
pure electric for very long. Many hybrid cars only have a few miles of
pure-electric range, but the electrics help efficiency for the rest of the
time too.

I don't think its unreasonable to expect a hybrid bus to pootle along a flat
level road such as Oxford Street on electric mode alone. The buses rarely
get over 20mph so unless the battery is almost dead I can't see a good reason
for the diesel engine to kick in.

What they won't get while crawling along is a reasonable chance to
recover energy while braking where a bus is suitably equipped. Further
away from Oxford Street where there is a chance to move a bit quicker
between stops it is still apparent that the engine does not stop after
serving a few stops in very slow traffic. OTOH on one Sunday when a
bus would have done around 8 miles in clear traffic before hitting a
localised traffic queue, it never reached the usual trigger speed and
crawled along in electric mode for over half a mile. Another possible
giveaway of the battery state might also be whether or not the engine
stops while in a traffic queue, another noticeable feature which seems
to match the movement pattern where a bus journey is long enough to
enable observing it.

[MissRiaElaine]

Post by Someone Somewhere
Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all electric
over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no more idling
outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more were)? Presumably
they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

We've got hydrogen fuel-cell buses up here in Aberdeen. Much better
than all-electric in my view. No need to plug in and same refuelling
time as an ordinary vehicle. Granted the refuelling stations are still
few and far between, but if it's invested in they'll come.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Someone Somewhere
Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all
electric over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no
more idling outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more
were)? Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

We've got hydrogen fuel-cell buses up here in Aberdeen. Much better
than all-electric in my view. No need to plug in and same refuelling
time as an ordinary vehicle. Granted the refuelling stations are still
few and far between, but if it's invested in they'll come.

Works for buses as they always refuel at the same place, just as
electric buses recharge at the same place every day. The problem with
hydrogen is still producing it is woefully inefficient.

[MissRiaElaine]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Someone Somewhere
Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all
electric over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no
more idling outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more
were)? Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

We've got hydrogen fuel-cell buses up here in Aberdeen. Much better
than all-electric in my view. No need to plug in and same refuelling
time as an ordinary vehicle. Granted the refuelling stations are still
few and far between, but if it's invested in they'll come.

Works for buses as they always refuel at the same place, just as
electric buses recharge at the same place every day.  The problem with
hydrogen is still producing it is woefully inefficient.

This is true, but it's still the preferred option for the long term, I
think, especially for long-distance coaches.

[b***@ows.com]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:15:38 +0100

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Someone Somewhere
Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all
electric over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no
more idling outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more
were)? Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

We've got hydrogen fuel-cell buses up here in Aberdeen. Much better
than all-electric in my view. No need to plug in and same refuelling
time as an ordinary vehicle. Granted the refuelling stations are still
few and far between, but if it's invested in they'll come.

Works for buses as they always refuel at the same place, just as
electric buses recharge at the same place every day.  The problem with
hydrogen is still producing it is woefully inefficient.

This is true, but it's still the preferred option for the long term, I
think, especially for long-distance coaches.

If the ultimate goal is to reduce total CO2 emissions then hydrogen is a big
step backwards - it not only takes huge amounts of energy to create it but also
to compress it. Plus it leaks out of almost anything given enough time, has
no smell and unlike diesel is explosive. Hydrogen vehicles are a dead end.

[Recliner]

Post by b***@ows.com
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:15:38 +0100

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Someone Somewhere
Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all
electric over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no
more idling outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more
were)? Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

We've got hydrogen fuel-cell buses up here in Aberdeen. Much better
than all-electric in my view. No need to plug in and same refuelling
time as an ordinary vehicle. Granted the refuelling stations are still
few and far between, but if it's invested in they'll come.

Works for buses as they always refuel at the same place, just as
electric buses recharge at the same place every day.  The problem with
hydrogen is still producing it is woefully inefficient.

This is true, but it's still the preferred option for the long term, I
think, especially for long-distance coaches.

If the ultimate goal is to reduce total CO2 emissions then hydrogen is a big
step backwards - it not only takes huge amounts of energy to create it but also
to compress it. Plus it leaks out of almost anything given enough time, has
no smell and unlike diesel is explosive. Hydrogen vehicles are a dead end.

The aim in this case is to reduce local toxic emissions, not CO2. The
now-hated diesel engines were until recently encouraged as they did reduce
CO2 production.

[MissRiaElaine]

Post by b***@ows.com
If the ultimate goal is to reduce total CO2 emissions then hydrogen is a big
step backwards - it not only takes huge amounts of energy to create it but also
to compress it. Plus it leaks out of almost anything given enough time, has
no smell and unlike diesel is explosive. Hydrogen vehicles are a dead end.

That's your opinion. But if I'm to replace a petrol/diesel vehicle with
a zero-emission one, I want one that I can refuel in 5 minutes not half
an hour upwards and also has a half-decent range.

[John Levine]

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by b***@ows.com
If the ultimate goal is to reduce total CO2 emissions then hydrogen is a big
step backwards - it not only takes huge amounts of energy to create it but also
to compress it. Plus it leaks out of almost anything given enough time, has
no smell and unlike diesel is explosive. Hydrogen vehicles are a dead end.

That's your opinion. But if I'm to replace a petrol/diesel vehicle with
a zero-emission one, I want one that I can refuel in 5 minutes not half
an hour upwards and also has a half-decent range.

H2 vehicles are only zero emission using an arithmetically challenged
version of "zero". You're basically burning methane in a very
inefficient way, and in a form that is impressively dangerous.
Hydrogen leaks through pinholes that wouldn't matter for anything
else, attacks metal tanks and makes them brittle, and at a 4%
concentration in air explodes like a bomb.

I agree that charging batteries takes a long time, but we can look
at other ways to address that.

[Roland Perry]

Post by John Levine
H2 vehicles are only zero emission using an arithmetically challenged
version of "zero".

The Mayor is interested in reducing particulates and NOX, not CO2.

[b***@hknsbk9gs.ac.uk]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 20:06:07 +0100

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by b***@ows.com
If the ultimate goal is to reduce total CO2 emissions then hydrogen is a big
step backwards - it not only takes huge amounts of energy to create it but

also

Post by b***@ows.com
to compress it. Plus it leaks out of almost anything given enough time, has
no smell and unlike diesel is explosive. Hydrogen vehicles are a dead end.

That's your opinion. But if I'm to replace a petrol/diesel vehicle with
a zero-emission one, I want one that I can refuel in 5 minutes not half
an hour upwards and also has a half-decent range.

If having to wait a bit longer to refuel is the only sacrifice we have to
make to reduce CO2 emissions then we're probably getting off lightly. Yes
it'll be inconvenient but most of us stop off at services for 15-20 mins anyway
on long trips so it might not be so bad.

[MissRiaElaine]

Post by b***@hknsbk9gs.ac.uk
If having to wait a bit longer to refuel is the only sacrifice we have to
make to reduce CO2 emissions then we're probably getting off lightly. Yes
it'll be inconvenient but most of us stop off at services for 15-20 mins anyway
on long trips so it might not be so bad.

Possibly, but that's assuming there are sufficient charging points and
they are free. If there are 20 cars waiting to get on them before you
do, you could be there for hours. A sales rep or a taxi driver on a long
trip wouldn't have the time. I used to ferry air crew between UK
airports when they got rerouted and sitting waiting to charge up for 3
hours would not have been acceptable.

[Robin]

Post by b***@ows.com
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:15:38 +0100

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Someone Somewhere
Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all
electric over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no
more idling outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more
were)? Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

We've got hydrogen fuel-cell buses up here in Aberdeen. Much better
than all-electric in my view. No need to plug in and same refuelling
time as an ordinary vehicle. Granted the refuelling stations are still
few and far between, but if it's invested in they'll come.

Works for buses as they always refuel at the same place, just as
electric buses recharge at the same place every day.  The problem with
hydrogen is still producing it is woefully inefficient.

This is true, but it's still the preferred option for the long term, I
think, especially for long-distance coaches.

If the ultimate goal is to reduce total CO2 emissions then hydrogen is a big
step backwards - it not only takes huge amounts of energy to create it but also
to compress it. Plus it leaks out of almost anything given enough time, has
no smell and unlike diesel is explosive. Hydrogen vehicles are a dead end.

Quite a lot of people see a future for hydrogen for shipping, if only
for when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.

[Someone Somewhere]

Post by Robin

Post by b***@ows.com
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:15:38 +0100

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Someone Somewhere
Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all
electric over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no
more idling outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more
were)? Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

We've got hydrogen fuel-cell buses up here in Aberdeen. Much better
than all-electric in my view. No need to plug in and same refuelling
time as an ordinary vehicle. Granted the refuelling stations are still
few and far between, but if it's invested in they'll come.

Works for buses as they always refuel at the same place, just as
electric buses recharge at the same place every day.  The problem with
hydrogen is still producing it is woefully inefficient.

This is true, but it's still the preferred option for the long term, I
think, especially for long-distance coaches.

If the ultimate goal is to reduce total CO2 emissions then hydrogen is a big
step backwards - it not only takes huge amounts of energy to create it but also
to compress it. Plus it leaks out of almost anything given enough time, has
no smell and unlike diesel is explosive. Hydrogen vehicles are a dead end.

Quite a lot of people see a future for hydrogen for shipping, if only
for when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.

Do you mean literal shipping? How frequently do you become becalmed on
a grey/foggy day? Can't be that frequent surely?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Someone Somewhere

Post by Robin
Quite a lot of people see a future for hydrogen for shipping, if
only for when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.

Do you mean literal shipping? How frequently do you become becalmed on
a grey/foggy day? Can't be that frequent surely?

Wind-free nights[1] are quite common.

[1] Which can be much longer than 12hrs of the day.

[Someone Somewhere]

Post by Roland Perry

 Quite a lot of people see a future for hydrogen for shipping, if
only  for when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.

Do you mean literal shipping?  How frequently do you become becalmed
on a grey/foggy day?  Can't be that frequent surely?

Wind-free nights[1] are quite common.
[1] Which can be much longer than 12hrs of the day.

Ah yes - forgot about nights... apologies!

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Robin

Post by b***@ows.com
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:15:38 +0100

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Someone Somewhere
Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all
electric over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no
more idling outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more
were)? Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

We've got hydrogen fuel-cell buses up here in Aberdeen. Much better
than all-electric in my view. No need to plug in and same refuelling
time as an ordinary vehicle. Granted the refuelling stations are still
few and far between, but if it's invested in they'll come.

Works for buses as they always refuel at the same place, just as
electric buses recharge at the same place every day.  The problem with
hydrogen is still producing it is woefully inefficient.

This is true, but it's still the preferred option for the long term, I
think, especially for long-distance coaches.

If the ultimate goal is to reduce total CO2 emissions then hydrogen is a big
step backwards - it not only takes huge amounts of energy to create it but also
to compress it. Plus it leaks out of almost anything given enough time, has
no smell and unlike diesel is explosive. Hydrogen vehicles are a dead end.

Quite a lot of people see a future for hydrogen for shipping, if only
for when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.

Do you mean literal shipping?  How frequently do you become becalmed on
a grey/foggy day?  Can't be that frequent surely?

Depends where you are, some places are more prone to it than others. The
tropics get a lot of windless days, that's why it is called the
doldrums. Early spring and you will get a lot of sea fog as well.

[b***@0xwyk79tkosgt6a94vadjk2h1n.org]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 08:46:06 +0100

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Robin

Post by b***@ows.com
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:15:38 +0100

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Someone Somewhere
Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all
electric over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no
more idling outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more
were)? Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

We've got hydrogen fuel-cell buses up here in Aberdeen. Much better
than all-electric in my view. No need to plug in and same refuelling
time as an ordinary vehicle. Granted the refuelling stations are still
few and far between, but if it's invested in they'll come.

Works for buses as they always refuel at the same place, just as
electric buses recharge at the same place every day.  The problem
with
hydrogen is still producing it is woefully inefficient.

This is true, but it's still the preferred option for the long term, I
think, especially for long-distance coaches.

If the ultimate goal is to reduce total CO2 emissions then hydrogen is a big
step backwards - it not only takes huge amounts of energy to create it but also
to compress it. Plus it leaks out of almost anything given enough time, has
no smell and unlike diesel is explosive. Hydrogen vehicles are a dead end.

Quite a lot of people see a future for hydrogen for shipping, if only
for when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.

Do you mean literal shipping?  How frequently do you become becalmed on
a grey/foggy day?  Can't be that frequent surely?

Depends where you are, some places are more prone to it than others. The
tropics get a lot of windless days, that's why it is called the
doldrums. Early spring and you will get a lot of sea fog as well.

I remember a long time ago a serious suggestion for aerofoil sails being
installed on moderate sized cargo ships to save fuel. Shame nothing came of
it but I suppose the upfront costs and maintenance were an issue. Shipping
really needs to clean up its act though - I cross the channel on the ferry
to cherbourg quite often and there is almost always a foul brown haze hanging
over the channel in sunny weather.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by b***@0xwyk79tkosgt6a94vadjk2h1n.org
On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 08:46:06 +0100

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Robin

Post by b***@ows.com
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:15:38 +0100

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Someone Somewhere
Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all
electric over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no
more idling outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more
were)? Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

We've got hydrogen fuel-cell buses up here in Aberdeen. Much better
than all-electric in my view. No need to plug in and same refuelling
time as an ordinary vehicle. Granted the refuelling stations are still
few and far between, but if it's invested in they'll come.

Works for buses as they always refuel at the same place, just as
electric buses recharge at the same place every day.  The problem
with
hydrogen is still producing it is woefully inefficient.

This is true, but it's still the preferred option for the long term, I
think, especially for long-distance coaches.

If the ultimate goal is to reduce total CO2 emissions then hydrogen is a big
step backwards - it not only takes huge amounts of energy to create it but also
to compress it. Plus it leaks out of almost anything given enough time, has
no smell and unlike diesel is explosive. Hydrogen vehicles are a dead end.

Quite a lot of people see a future for hydrogen for shipping, if only
for when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.

Do you mean literal shipping?  How frequently do you become becalmed on
a grey/foggy day?  Can't be that frequent surely?

Depends where you are, some places are more prone to it than others. The
tropics get a lot of windless days, that's why it is called the
doldrums. Early spring and you will get a lot of sea fog as well.

I remember a long time ago a serious suggestion for aerofoil sails being
installed on moderate sized cargo ships to save fuel. Shame nothing came of
it but I suppose the upfront costs and maintenance were an issue. Shipping
really needs to clean up its act though - I cross the channel on the ferry
to cherbourg quite often and there is almost always a foul brown haze hanging
over the channel in sunny weather.

At least one ship was fitted with aerofoils, I filmed it in Southampton
Water. Problem was it was ahead of its time as far as the control
electronics was concerned - mid-80s. It was also basically one man's
obsession, he did well to drive the project as far as it got but fuel
efficiency, pollution and global warming wasn't really a thing back
then. With the container revolution it is not practical on modern
container ships.

Using conventional sails, computer controlled, works on some cruise
ships now as Recliner can confirm.

[Marland]

E

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by b***@0xwyk79tkosgt6a94vadjk2h1n.org
I remember a long time ago a serious suggestion for aerofoil sails being
installed on moderate sized cargo ships to save fuel. Shame nothing came of
it but I suppose the upfront costs and maintenance were an issue. Shipping
really needs to clean up its act though - I cross the channel on the ferry
to cherbourg quite often and there is almost always a foul brown haze hanging
over the channel in sunny weather.

At least one ship was fitted with aerofoils, I filmed it in Southampton
Water. Problem was it was ahead of its time as far as the control
electronics was concerned - mid-80s. It was also basically one man's
obsession, he did well to drive the project as far as it got but fuel
efficiency, pollution and global warming wasn't really a thing back
then.

Walker wingsails was that ?
The sudden increase of oil prices in the 1970’s was the driver but by the
end of the them an into the 80’s
people had got used to them and engine efficiency was improving and oil
prices also dropped as other sources came on stream.

The ship was the MV Ashington, 2nd photo down on this page.

http://www.tynebuiltships.co.uk/A-Ships/ashington1979.html

He also had a demonstration yacht moored in the Ocean village Southampton
and other Marinas around the Solent and after fitting the concept to
commercial vessels proved a non runner concentrated on the yachting market
.
Potted history of the yacht here ,
http://planesail.com/index.html

Financially he was never really successful but did get a boost when IPC
magazines published an article by someone who didn’t like the concept very
much which proved libellous and resulted in one of the biggest Libel
Awards ever made in British court up to then and though the approx 1.5
million award doesn’t sound much now
the case is still studied by Law students.


Wind assistance is nothing new of course, In a childhood book of my
mother’s so about 80 years old one of the more interesting articles was
about the Flettner Rotor Ship design which was also being presented as
revolutionary (NPI ) concept at the time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flettner_rotor

Like the Walker windsail it never caught on though more recent derivations
of the rotor concept have seen to have been more successful than Walkers .

This one e ship 1 which appropriately was constructed to deliver wind
turbine components was at the time of writing making its way to near Bremen
according to its AIS information.

https://www.marineinsight.com/types-of-ships/e-ship-1-germany’s-unusual-rolo-cargo-ship/amp/

The Rotors look more robust than the wingsails which is an important
consideration for any vessel.

GH

[b***@8ye9_m9j47_r6djh3w18f.gov.uk]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 20:18:27 +0100

Post by Robin

Post by b***@ows.com
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:15:38 +0100

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Someone Somewhere
Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all
electric over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no
more idling outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more
were)? Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

We've got hydrogen fuel-cell buses up here in Aberdeen. Much better
than all-electric in my view. No need to plug in and same refuelling
time as an ordinary vehicle. Granted the refuelling stations are still
few and far between, but if it's invested in they'll come.

Works for buses as they always refuel at the same place, just as
electric buses recharge at the same place every day.  The problem with
hydrogen is still producing it is woefully inefficient.

This is true, but it's still the preferred option for the long term, I
think, especially for long-distance coaches.

If the ultimate goal is to reduce total CO2 emissions then hydrogen is a big
step backwards - it not only takes huge amounts of energy to create it but

also

Post by b***@ows.com
to compress it. Plus it leaks out of almost anything given enough time, has
no smell and unlike diesel is explosive. Hydrogen vehicles are a dead end.

Quite a lot of people see a future for hydrogen for shipping, if only
for when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.

You must be joking. LPG carriers have to stay miles off shore until its time
to dock as it is. Imagine every ship having hundreds of tons of compressed gas
stored in them!

[Robin]

Post by b***@8ye9_m9j47_r6djh3w18f.gov.uk
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 20:18:27 +0100

Post by Robin

Post by b***@ows.com
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:15:38 +0100

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Someone Somewhere
Aren't a significant proportion of London bus routes going all
electric over the next few years (I found out the 100 is - yay, no
more idling outside my house, and then discovered quite a few more
were)? Presumably they'll have to get the buses from somewhere?

We've got hydrogen fuel-cell buses up here in Aberdeen. Much better
than all-electric in my view. No need to plug in and same refuelling
time as an ordinary vehicle. Granted the refuelling stations are still
few and far between, but if it's invested in they'll come.

Works for buses as they always refuel at the same place, just as
electric buses recharge at the same place every day.  The problem with
hydrogen is still producing it is woefully inefficient.

This is true, but it's still the preferred option for the long term, I
think, especially for long-distance coaches.

If the ultimate goal is to reduce total CO2 emissions then hydrogen is a big
step backwards - it not only takes huge amounts of energy to create it but

also

Post by b***@ows.com
to compress it. Plus it leaks out of almost anything given enough time, has
no smell and unlike diesel is explosive. Hydrogen vehicles are a dead end.

Quite a lot of people see a future for hydrogen for shipping, if only
for when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.

You must be joking. LPG carriers have to stay miles off shore until its time
to dock as it is. Imagine every ship having hundreds of tons of compressed gas
stored in them!

I can easily envisage a gas which is much lighter than air being used on
on board vessels which never enter enclosed spaces such as garages where
a leak might cause an explosion which affects more than those on board.
After all, a lot of people are happy with their hydrogen fuelled cars
which do.

Anyhow, doesn't seem to worry the Norwegians who have ordered an
H-powered ferry.

https://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/268356/norled-to-build-worlds-1st-hydrogen-electric-ferry/

[John Levine]

Post by Robin
I can easily envisage a gas which is much lighter than air being used on
on board vessels which never enter enclosed spaces such as garages where
a leak might cause an explosion which affects more than those on board.
After all, a lot of people are happy with their hydrogen fuelled cars
which do.

The question isn't whether the ship goes into a garage, it's whether
there are spaces on the ship into which the H2 could leak. Ships are
quite large so I would assume the answer is yes.

Post by Robin
Anyhow, doesn't seem to worry the Norwegians who have ordered an
H-powered ferry.
https://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/268356/norled-to-build-worlds-1st-hydrogen-electric-ferry/

They're nuts. Of course the press release is full of "zero emissions"
nonsense ignoring where the H2 comes from.

I would also think the issues on a ferry that makes 15 minute
crossings of a fjord would be different from a bulk carrier that is at
sea for weeks at a time. If nothing else, the amount of H2 would have
to be orders of magnitude greater.

[Theo]

Post by John Levine

Post by Robin
https://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/268356/norled-to-build-worlds-1st-hydrogen-electric-ferry/

They're nuts. Of course the press release is full of "zero emissions"
nonsense ignoring where the H2 comes from.

In the case of Orkney, there's quite a lot of wind but the transmission
infrastructure isn't up to sending it to the mainland (not just making
landfall - the demand is a lot further south). So they do have surplus
energy, and hydrogen is useful place to store it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the same applied to the remoter parts of Norway.

Theo

[Rolf Mantel]

Post by Theo
In the case of Orkney, there's quite a lot of wind but the transmission
infrastructure isn't up to sending it to the mainland (not just making
landfall - the demand is a lot further south). So they do have surplus
energy, and hydrogen is useful place to store it.

I would have thought "Power-to-Gas" and them Methane-driven busses might
be more reliable and less complicated to work on than H2.

[MissRiaElaine]

Post by John Levine

Post by Robin
I can easily envisage a gas which is much lighter than air being used on
on board vessels which never enter enclosed spaces such as garages where
a leak might cause an explosion which affects more than those on board.
After all, a lot of people are happy with their hydrogen fuelled cars
which do.

The question isn't whether the ship goes into a garage, it's whether
there are spaces on the ship into which the H2 could leak. Ships are
quite large so I would assume the answer is yes.

Post by Robin
Anyhow, doesn't seem to worry the Norwegians who have ordered an
H-powered ferry.
https://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/268356/norled-to-build-worlds-1st-hydrogen-electric-ferry/

They're nuts. Of course the press release is full of "zero emissions"
nonsense ignoring where the H2 comes from.

So where does the electricity to charge a battery come from..?

[Robin]

Post by John Levine

Post by Robin
I can easily envisage a gas which is much lighter than air being used on
on board vessels which never enter enclosed spaces such as garages where
a leak might cause an explosion which affects more than those on board.
After all, a lot of people are happy with their hydrogen fuelled cars
which do.

The question isn't whether the ship goes into a garage, it's whether
there are spaces on the ship into which the H2 could leak. Ships are
quite large so I would assume the answer is yes.

I would think that risk would be mitigated by combining a barrier
between the hydrogen and the cargo space with ventilation of the
hydrogen storage space. Just as I think is done hydrogen powered buses.
But perhaps we differ in that I use those (and occasionally walk past
the Lea Interchange Hydrogen Station) without a second's thought as to
the risk of an explosion.

Post by John Levine

Post by Robin
Anyhow, doesn't seem to worry the Norwegians who have ordered an
H-powered ferry.
https://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/268356/norled-to-build-worlds-1st-hydrogen-electric-ferry/

They're nuts. Of course the press release is full of "zero emissions"
nonsense ignoring where the H2 comes from.

They have rather a lot of hydroelectric capacity in Norway.

[Recliner]

Post by Robin

Post by John Levine

Post by Robin
I can easily envisage a gas which is much lighter than air being used on
on board vessels which never enter enclosed spaces such as garages where
a leak might cause an explosion which affects more than those on board.
After all, a lot of people are happy with their hydrogen fuelled cars
which do.

The question isn't whether the ship goes into a garage, it's whether
there are spaces on the ship into which the H2 could leak. Ships are
quite large so I would assume the answer is yes.

I would think that risk would be mitigated by combining a barrier
between the hydrogen and the cargo space with ventilation of the
hydrogen storage space. Just as I think is done hydrogen powered buses.
But perhaps we differ in that I use those (and occasionally walk past
the Lea Interchange Hydrogen Station) without a second's thought as to
the risk of an explosion.

Post by John Levine

Post by Robin
Anyhow, doesn't seem to worry the Norwegians who have ordered an
H-powered ferry.
https://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/268356/norled-to-build-worlds-1st-hydrogen-electric-ferry/

They're nuts. Of course the press release is full of "zero emissions"
nonsense ignoring where the H2 comes from.

They have rather a lot of hydroelectric capacity in Norway.

They do, but unfortunately it won't be used to produce the hydrogen for
this ferry. I assume it will be used to recharge the main power source, the
batteries, however.

[Robin]

Post by Recliner

Post by Robin

Post by John Levine

Post by Robin
I can easily envisage a gas which is much lighter than air being used on
on board vessels which never enter enclosed spaces such as garages where
a leak might cause an explosion which affects more than those on board.
After all, a lot of people are happy with their hydrogen fuelled cars
which do.

The question isn't whether the ship goes into a garage, it's whether
there are spaces on the ship into which the H2 could leak. Ships are
quite large so I would assume the answer is yes.

I would think that risk would be mitigated by combining a barrier
between the hydrogen and the cargo space with ventilation of the
hydrogen storage space. Just as I think is done hydrogen powered buses.
But perhaps we differ in that I use those (and occasionally walk past
the Lea Interchange Hydrogen Station) without a second's thought as to
the risk of an explosion.

Post by John Levine

Post by Robin
Anyhow, doesn't seem to worry the Norwegians who have ordered an
H-powered ferry.
https://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/268356/norled-to-build-worlds-1st-hydrogen-electric-ferry/

They're nuts. Of course the press release is full of "zero emissions"
nonsense ignoring where the H2 comes from.

They have rather a lot of hydroelectric capacity in Norway.

They do, but unfortunately it won't be used to produce the hydrogen for
this ferry. I assume it will be used to recharge the main power source, the
batteries, however.

It might help if you and others cited sources 'cos what /I/ have read is
that one of the ships will have 50% power from fuel cells using a
hydrogen tank on it's roof for 4 tonnes of hydrogen; and that while
it'll start off using imported hydrogen it will move on to use locally
generated fuel.

See eg

https://www.ferryshippingnews.com/norled-presents-the-worlds-first-hydrogen-ferry-design/

https://maritimecleantech.no/2019/03/01/an-iconic-hydrogen-ferry/

[b***@arcwwh39_c.gov.uk]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:46:08 +0100

Post by Robin

Post by b***@8ye9_m9j47_r6djh3w18f.gov.uk
You must be joking. LPG carriers have to stay miles off shore until its time
to dock as it is. Imagine every ship having hundreds of tons of compressed

gas

Post by b***@8ye9_m9j47_r6djh3w18f.gov.uk
stored in them!

I can easily envisage a gas which is much lighter than air being used on
on board vessels which never enter enclosed spaces such as garages where
a leak might cause an explosion which affects more than those on board.
After all, a lot of people are happy with their hydrogen fuelled cars
which do.

If a hydrogen fueled car blows up it might destroy stuff with a few 10s of
metres. If 500 tons of compressed H2 on a ship goes up you can probably kiss
goodbye to most of the port.

If you don't believe me I suggest you watch this LPG blast:

[MissRiaElaine]

Post by b***@arcwwh39_c.gov.uk
If a hydrogen fueled car blows up it might destroy stuff with a few 10s of
metres. If 500 tons of compressed H2 on a ship goes up you can probably kiss
goodbye to most of the port.
http://youtu.be/kjvk0QCjvVM

That's LPG not H2. Tanks on hydrogen cars are built to a very high
specification, and there is a vent that would result in a jet of gas
going upwards, not outwards as in a normal explosion.

I have spent quite some time driving H2 cars and nothing has convinced
me that there is any more risk of an explosion than driving around in a
car with a tank of flammable petrol.

[John Levine]

Post by MissRiaElaine
That's LPG not H2. Tanks on hydrogen cars are built to a very high
specification, and there is a vent that would result in a jet of gas
going upwards, not outwards as in a normal explosion.

Liquid H2 is inferior in every way to LPG as a shipping fuel. It's
less energy dense, harder to handle, and since large quantities of H2
will made from CH4 for the forseeable future, just cut out the
gratuitous middle step.

Post by MissRiaElaine
I have spent quite some time driving H2 cars and nothing has convinced
me that there is any more risk of an explosion than driving around in a
car with a tank of flammable petrol.

That's quite clear, but that's not the same thing as it being as safe
as petrol. Remember that H2 attacks tanks and makes them brittle, and
there aren't a lot of H2 cars with old tanks. Yet.

[b***@wilmd7g69ya.gov.uk]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 17:13:39 +0100

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by b***@arcwwh39_c.gov.uk
If a hydrogen fueled car blows up it might destroy stuff with a few 10s of
metres. If 500 tons of compressed H2 on a ship goes up you can probably kiss
goodbye to most of the port.
http://youtu.be/kjvk0QCjvVM

That's LPG not H2. Tanks on hydrogen cars are built to a very high
specification, and there is a vent that would result in a jet of gas
going upwards, not outwards as in a normal explosion.

Right, and they never thought of installing similar safety systems in a large
refinery. Sometimes safety systems fail and things go wrong fast.

You can't change the laws of physics - hydrogen is explosive whether you like
it or not.

Post by MissRiaElaine
I have spent quite some time driving H2 cars and nothing has convinced
me that there is any more risk of an explosion than driving around in a
car with a tank of flammable petrol.

Petrol can be explosive, but you can usually smell it long before it gets
to a dangerous concentration in the air. No so with H2. And if a petrol tank
ruptures there isn't thousands of pounds of pressure inside it.

[Charles Ellson]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 09:00:01 +0000 (UTC),

Post by b***@wilmd7g69ya.gov.uk
On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 17:13:39 +0100

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by b***@arcwwh39_c.gov.uk
If a hydrogen fueled car blows up it might destroy stuff with a few 10s of
metres. If 500 tons of compressed H2 on a ship goes up you can probably kiss
goodbye to most of the port.
http://youtu.be/kjvk0QCjvVM

That's LPG not H2. Tanks on hydrogen cars are built to a very high
specification, and there is a vent that would result in a jet of gas
going upwards, not outwards as in a normal explosion.

Right, and they never thought of installing similar safety systems in a large
refinery. Sometimes safety systems fail and things go wrong fast.
You can't change the laws of physics - hydrogen is explosive whether you like
it or not.

Even hydrogen has an Upper Explosive Limit :-
https://www.afcintl.com/pdfs/applications/combustibles.pdf
but unlikely to be applicable to a leaky motor vehicle.

Post by b***@wilmd7g69ya.gov.uk

Post by MissRiaElaine
I have spent quite some time driving H2 cars and nothing has convinced
me that there is any more risk of an explosion than driving around in a
car with a tank of flammable petrol.

Petrol can be explosive, but you can usually smell it long before it gets
to a dangerous concentration in the air. No so with H2. And if a petrol tank
ruptures there isn't thousands of pounds of pressure inside it.

[Basil Jet]

Post by b***@wilmd7g69ya.gov.uk
You can't change the laws of physics -

You misspelt "Ye canna".

[Mark Goodge]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by b***@wilmd7g69ya.gov.uk
You can't change the laws of physics -

You misspelt "Ye canna".

You misspelt "cannae".

Mark

[Anna Noyd-Dryver]

Post by Mark Goodge

Post by Basil Jet

Post by b***@wilmd7g69ya.gov.uk
You can't change the laws of physics -

You misspelt "Ye canna".

You misspelt "cannae".

"It’s worse than that, it’s physics, Jim!"

Anna Noyd-Dryver