Brexit - Ireland

Post by Judith
I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum and what has
followed.
What is it please?

IMO, necessity. Lots of problems are insoluble when people believe they
have the luxury of time. And that's the situation we are in now. There
is 'space' for absurd posturing, megaphone diplomacy, and sabre
rattling. The EU is often thus. As one EU27 leader said before, the way
they proceed is to do a lot of arguing but when they have to, they
agree. In other words, some think they have time, and what we are seeing
now is posturing.

--
James Harris

Judith

2017-11-26 21:37:41 UTC

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

Pelican

2017-11-26 21:41:09 UTC

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered by
the EU that counts.

Norman Wells

2017-11-26 22:10:06 UTC

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could help
me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum and what has
followed.
What is it please?

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered by
the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred solution?
Have they ever proposed anything?

Pelican

2017-11-26 22:14:53 UTC

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could
help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum and what has
followed.
What is it please?

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered by
the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred solution?
Have they ever proposed anything?

You won't have heard them over your shouting.

Norman Wells

2017-11-27 08:49:13 UTC

Post by Judith
Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering
Government - surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered by
the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred
solution? Have they ever proposed anything?

You won't have heard them over your shouting.

Shouting? What shouting?

I take it, though, that you have no idea either what the EU's position
on the border is?

R. Mark Clayton

2017-11-27 12:31:06 UTC

Post by Judith
Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering
Government - surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered by
the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred
solution? Have they ever proposed anything?

You won't have heard them over your shouting.

Shouting? What shouting?
I take it, though, that you have no idea either what the EU's position
on the border is?

The current position on the border is that for trade purposes it does not exist.

The EU and Irish position is that it ain't broke so don't fix it - just continue as before.

The UK position seems to be that they want to exit the customs union and single market, but still have no customs checks, duty collection etc. etc. on the border, but so far have not explained how this "frictionless" arrangement might possibly work...

Norman Wells

2017-11-27 12:37:13 UTC

Post by Judith
Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering
Government - surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered by
the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred
solution? Have they ever proposed anything?

You won't have heard them over your shouting.

Shouting? What shouting?
I take it, though, that you have no idea either what the EU's position
on the border is?

The current position on the border is that for trade purposes it does not exist.
The EU and Irish position is that it ain't broke so don't fix it - just continue as before.

If that really is the EU's position, can you explain why it is one of
the three matters on which there has to be 'sufficient progress' before
we can even begin to discuss trade?

If there isn't a problem, why does the EU make it out to be such a big deal?

R. Mark Clayton

2017-11-27 12:42:24 UTC

Post by Judith
Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering
Government - surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered by
the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred
solution? Have they ever proposed anything?

You won't have heard them over your shouting.

Shouting? What shouting?
I take it, though, that you have no idea either what the EU's position
on the border is?

The current position on the border is that for trade purposes it does not exist.
The EU and Irish position is that it ain't broke so don't fix it - just continue as before.

If that really is the EU's position, can you explain why it is one of
the three matters on which there has to be 'sufficient progress' before
we can even begin to discuss trade?
If there isn't a problem, why does the EU make it out to be such a big deal?

Apparently the UK is leaving the EU and does not want it to be the same as before - or something like that...

Norman Wells

2017-11-27 13:49:51 UTC

Post by Judith
Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering
Government - surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered by
the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred
solution? Have they ever proposed anything?

You won't have heard them over your shouting.

Shouting? What shouting?
I take it, though, that you have no idea either what the EU's position
on the border is?

The current position on the border is that for trade purposes it does not exist.
The EU and Irish position is that it ain't broke so don't fix it - just continue as before.

If that really is the EU's position, can you explain why it is one of
the three matters on which there has to be 'sufficient progress' before
we can even begin to discuss trade?
If there isn't a problem, why does the EU make it out to be such a big deal?

Apparently the UK is leaving the EU and does not want it to be the same as before - or something like that...

So, why does the EU make it out to be such a big deal?

R. Mark Clayton

2017-11-27 16:31:29 UTC

SNIP

Post by Norman Wells
I take it, though, that you have no idea either what the EU's position
on the border is?

The current position on the border is that for trade purposes it does not exist.
The EU and Irish position is that it ain't broke so don't fix it - just continue as before.

If that really is the EU's position, can you explain why it is one of
the three matters on which there has to be 'sufficient progress' before
we can even begin to discuss trade?
If there isn't a problem, why does the EU make it out to be such a big deal?

Apparently the UK is leaving the EU and does not want it to be the same as before - or something like that...

So, why does the EU make it out to be such a big deal?

Well if the Republic is in the customs union and single market and Northern Ireland is not it is difficult to see how goods can cross the border in either direction without bills of laiding, customs declarations, reinstated checkpoints, checks by officers, payment of duty and all the other ****aching compliance there used to be getting stuff even in and out of Europe. Some of it might be nowadays be electronic, but it would still be a PITA.

May imagines that trade with all these hoops to jump through can be "frictionless". This is sometimes referred to as "having ones cake and eating it".

Judith

2017-11-28 17:09:31 UTC

On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:49:51 +0000, Norman Wells <***@unseen.ac.am> wrote:

<snip>

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Apparently the UK is leaving the EU and does not want it to be the same as before - or something like that...

So, why does the EU make it out to be such a big deal?

Please explain how, if the current system is left in place - it will work?

This is a problem created by the British Government : it is their
responsibility to come up with a workable solution.

They have failed to do so.

Norman Wells

2017-11-28 17:21:26 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Apparently the UK is leaving the EU and does not want it to be the same as before - or something like that...

So, why does the EU make it out to be such a big deal?

Please explain how, if the current system is left in place - it will work?

I can't see any way of making it work except by making it a hard border.

Post by Judith
This is a problem created by the British Government : it is their
responsibility to come up with a workable solution.
They have failed to do so.

So far that's true.

But it's not our problem alone, nor is it actually a single border.
There will have to be one each way, so Ireland and the EU will have to
decide what they want on their side of the line just as we will on ours.

They have failed to do so.

Judith

2017-11-28 17:07:45 UTC

<snip>

Post by R. Mark Clayton
The EU and Irish position is that it ain't broke so don't fix it - just continue as before.

If that really is the EU's position, can you explain why it is one of
the three matters on which there has to be 'sufficient progress' before
we can even begin to discuss trade?
If there isn't a problem, why does the EU make it out to be such a big deal?

It is up to the British Government to come up with possible solutions : and
then agree which one is implemented.

They seem to be unable to explain what the possible solutions are.

Can you help?

Norman Wells

2017-11-28 17:33:20 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
The EU and Irish position is that it ain't broke so don't fix it - just continue as before.

If that really is the EU's position, can you explain why it is one of
the three matters on which there has to be 'sufficient progress' before
we can even begin to discuss trade?
If there isn't a problem, why does the EU make it out to be such a big deal?

It is up to the British Government to come up with possible solutions : and
then agree which one is implemented.
They seem to be unable to explain what the possible solutions are.
Can you help?

1) A hard border
2) Irish reunification
3) Withdrawal of Article 50 notification
4) N Ireland made independent

(2, 3 and 4 may be somewhat unlikely).

Fredxx

2017-11-28 18:43:40 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
The EU and Irish position is that it ain't broke so don't fix it -
just continue as before.

If that really is the EU's position, can you explain why it is one of
the three matters on which there has to be 'sufficient progress' before
we can even begin to discuss trade?
If there isn't a problem, why does the EU make it out to be such a big deal?

It is up to the British Government to come up with possible solutions : and
then agree which one is implemented.
They seem to be unable to explain what the possible solutions are.
Can you help?

1) A hard border
2) Irish reunification
3) Withdrawal of Article 50 notification
4) N Ireland made independent
(2, 3 and 4 may be somewhat unlikely).

There is a 5th, if there free trade agreement. There are already
different duties (tobacco and alcohol) and rates of VAT, so it could be
very little change.

R. Mark Clayton

2017-11-28 19:46:41 UTC

SNIP

Post by Fredxx

Post by Judith
They seem to be unable to explain what the possible solutions are.
Can you help?

1) A hard border
2) Irish reunification
3) Withdrawal of Article 50 notification
4) N Ireland made independent
(2, 3 and 4 may be somewhat unlikely).

There is a 5th, if there free trade agreement. There are already
different duties (tobacco and alcohol) and rates of VAT, so it could be
very little change.

Excise dutied items are a problem now (tobacco, alcohol, fuel).

Import dutied and VAT are not.

Fredxx

2017-11-28 19:48:07 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP

Post by Fredxx

Post by Judith
They seem to be unable to explain what the possible solutions are.
Can you help?

1) A hard border
2) Irish reunification
3) Withdrawal of Article 50 notification
4) N Ireland made independent
(2, 3 and 4 may be somewhat unlikely).

There is a 5th, if there free trade agreement. There are already
different duties (tobacco and alcohol) and rates of VAT, so it could be
very little change.

Excise dutied items are a problem now (tobacco, alcohol, fuel).
Import dutied and VAT are not.

So no change then.

Judith

2017-11-29 00:16:12 UTC

On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 17:33:20 +0000, Norman Wells <***@unseen.ac.am> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Judith
It is up to the British Government to come up with possible solutions : and
then agree which one is implemented.
They seem to be unable to explain what the possible solutions are.
Can you help?

1) A hard border
2) Irish reunification
3) Withdrawal of Article 50 notification
4) N Ireland made independent
(2, 3 and 4 may be somewhat unlikely).

So a hard border it is then.

Thank you Norman.

Fredxxx

2017-11-28 14:19:50 UTC

Post by Judith
Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the
Brexitering Government - surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being
offered by the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred
solution? Have they ever proposed anything?

You won't have heard them over your shouting.

Shouting? What shouting?
I take it, though, that you have no idea either what the EU's
position on the border is?

The current position on the border is that for trade purposes it does not exist.
The EU and Irish position is that it ain't broke so don't fix it - just continue as before.
The UK position seems to be that they want to exit the customs union
and single market, but still have no customs checks, duty collection
etc. etc. on the border, but so far have not explained how this
"frictionless" arrangement might possibly work...

You seem to confuse the idea of a single market and free trade.

It is perfectly possible to exit the single market, and have a free
trade agreement.

If that is the case, perhaps you would agree that custom checks can stay
as they are.

Do you think Canada is part of the EU Single Market?

pamela

2017-12-01 10:47:04 UTC

Post by Judith
Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the
Brexitering Government - surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being
offered by the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their*
preferred solution? Have they ever proposed anything?

You won't have heard them over your shouting.

Shouting? What shouting?
I take it, though, that you have no idea either what the EU's
position on the border is?

The current position on the border is that for trade purposes
it does not exist.
The EU and Irish position is that it ain't broke so don't fix
it - just continue as before.
The UK position seems to be that they want to exit the customs
union and single market, but still have no customs checks, duty
collection etc. etc. on the border, but so far have not
explained how this "frictionless" arrangement might possibly
work...

You seem to confuse the idea of a single market and free trade.
It is perfectly possible to exit the single market, and have a
free trade agreement.

How long will it take to reach this trade agreement?

Post by Fredxxx
If that is the case, perhaps you would agree that custom checks
can stay as they are.
Do you think Canada is part of the EU Single Market?

It took Canada eight years. Luckily for them it wasn't as complex
as Brexit or it would have taken even longer.

Ian Jackson

2017-11-27 08:40:52 UTC

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could
help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by
the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum
and what has
followed.
What is it please?

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered
by the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred solution?
Have they ever proposed anything?

As it's the UK that has created the problem, it's up to the UK to
provide a solution which is within the rules of the EU, and acceptable
to the RoI and NI. Even if the EU do suggest something, it's unlikely to
be acceptable to the RoI and the UK and NI. As things stand, there IS no
solution.

--
Ian

James Harris

2017-11-27 09:38:47 UTC

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could
help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by
the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum
and what has
followed.
What is it please?

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered
by the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred solution?
Have they ever proposed anything?

As it's the UK that has created the problem,

I keep hearing such assertions in the media and they affect people's
beliefs but they are completely false. Britain has not created any
problem. If the UK had decided to break an EU treaty you might have some
justification in making that claim. But the UK has operated throughout
within the agreed rules.

Years ago the EU decided to say to member states: if you want to leave,
this is the procedure. The UK said, OK, we'll follow that exact
procedure. All this is open and above board, and quite correct
behaviour. There is no legitimate EU grievance here. They chose a rule.
We are obeying the rule. That's it. That's a perfectly legitimate thing
to do and the EU has no legitimate claim of grievance.

Post by Ian Jackson
it's up to the UK to
provide a solution which is within the rules of the EU, and acceptable
to the RoI and NI. Even if the EU do suggest something, it's unlikely to
be acceptable to the RoI and the UK and NI. As things stand, there IS no
solution.

If the UK had broken the rules, maybe. But the UK is doing no more than
is its legitimate, documented, agreed, legal right. Therefore, all
parties - UK, Eire, EU - should behave as adults and work together to
solve the problem of the Ireland border. The UK is, in fact, being
sensible. The EU, however, is saying it has to be addressed before we
move on to the matters which are necessary to solve it. Que? Such an
approach is patently nonsensical. And the new Eire prime minister's
decision to use the media to advertise problems he has put in the way is
inept. What a bunch! How did we ever allow ourselves to become enmeshed
in this absurd organisation?

--
James Harris

Ian Jackson

2017-11-27 10:46:51 UTC

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could
help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by
the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum
and what has
followed.
What is it please?

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered
by the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred solution?
Have they ever proposed anything?

As it's the UK that has created the problem,

I keep hearing such assertions in the media and they affect people's
beliefs but they are completely false. Britain has not created any
problem. If the UK had decided to break an EU treaty you might have
some justification in making that claim. But the UK has operated
throughout within the agreed rules.
Years ago the EU decided to say to member states: if you want to leave,
this is the procedure. The UK said, OK, we'll follow that exact
procedure. All this is open and above board, and quite correct
behaviour. There is no legitimate EU grievance here. They chose a rule.
We are obeying the rule. That's it. That's a perfectly legitimate thing
to do and the EU has no legitimate claim of grievance.

If the UK had broken the rules, maybe. But the UK is doing no more than
is its legitimate, documented, agreed, legal right. Therefore, all
parties - UK, Eire, EU - should behave as adults and work together to
solve the problem of the Ireland border. The UK is, in fact, being
sensible. The EU, however, is saying it has to be addressed before we
move on to the matters which are necessary to solve it. Que? Such an
approach is patently nonsensical. And the new Eire prime minister's
decision to use the media to advertise problems he has put in the way
is inept. What a bunch! How did we ever allow ourselves to become
enmeshed in this absurd organisation?

I don't think anybody is saying that the UK has broken any EU rules.

However, the Brexiteers have (possibly inadvertently) put the UK in a
position where by leaving the EU, they will have to breach the Good
Friday agreement with the RoI. This is certainly the case if the RoI
remains in the EU - but if it does. then essentially NI will also have
to remain in the EU. The alternative is for the RoI to leave the EU, and
have its own trade deals with the UK (or, possibly, for the EU, the UK
and the RoI to have a special 3-way trade agreement).

As none of these solutions are likely to be acceptable (especially in
the RoI), what alternative(s) can the Brexiteers suggest?

--
Ian

James Harris

2017-11-27 13:26:32 UTC

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could
help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in
dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by
the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum
and what has
followed.
What is it please?

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered
by the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred solution?
Have they ever proposed anything?

As it's the UK that has created the problem,

I keep hearing such assertions in the media and they affect people's
beliefs but they are completely false. Britain has not created any
problem. If the UK had decided to break an EU treaty you might have
some justification in making that claim. But the UK has operated
throughout within the agreed rules.
Years ago the EU decided to say to member states: if you want to leave,
this is the procedure. The UK said, OK, we'll follow that exact
procedure. All this is open and above board, and quite correct
behaviour. There is no legitimate EU grievance here. They chose a rule.
We are obeying the rule. That's it. That's a perfectly legitimate thing
to do and the EU has no legitimate claim of grievance.

If the UK had broken the rules, maybe. But the UK is doing no more than
is its legitimate, documented, agreed, legal right. Therefore, all
parties - UK, Eire, EU - should behave as adults and work together to
solve the problem of the Ireland border. The UK is, in fact, being
sensible. The EU, however, is saying it has to be addressed before we
move on to the matters which are necessary to solve it. Que? Such an
approach is patently nonsensical. And the new Eire prime minister's
decision to use the media to advertise problems he has put in the way
is inept. What a bunch! How did we ever allow ourselves to become
enmeshed in this absurd organisation?

I don't think anybody is saying that the UK has broken any EU rules.

And yet you and others blame the UK for creating a problem, as if it has
broken some rule or other.

Post by Ian Jackson
However, the Brexiteers have (possibly inadvertently) put the UK in a
position where by leaving the EU, they will have to breach the Good
Friday agreement with the RoI.

Aside from trivial ones, what changes would have to be made?

Post by Ian Jackson
This is certainly the case if the RoI
remains in the EU - but if it does. then essentially NI will also have
to remain in the EU. The alternative is for the RoI to leave the EU, and
have its own trade deals with the UK (or, possibly, for the EU, the UK
and the RoI to have a special 3-way trade agreement).
As none of these solutions are likely to be acceptable (especially in
the RoI), what alternative(s) can the Brexiteers suggest?

Suggestions:

* Firms who trade across the border should account for their own duties
in arrears, much as they do for VAT, and should get audited from time to
time.

* Where significant abuses are alleged, carry out specific
investigations. (Probably much as is done now.)

What's so difficult about something like that?

But what's really important is that the Irish politicians stop shouting
from the sidelines and complaining that "it's not our problem" and that
they roll their sleeves up and start working with the UK government to
come up with a solution.

--
James Harris

Yellow

2017-11-27 18:26:06 UTC

On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:26:32 +0000, James Harris <james.harris.1

Post by James Harris
But what's really important is that the Irish politicians stop shouting
from the sidelines and complaining that "it's not our problem" and that
they roll their sleeves up and start working with the UK government to
come up with a solution.

Exactly.

R. Mark Clayton

2017-11-27 19:57:19 UTC

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:26:32 +0000, James Harris <james.harris.1

Exactly.

Like a united Ireland - that would work...

Yellow

2017-11-27 21:43:33 UTC

On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:57:19 -0800 (PST), R. Mark Clayton

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:26:32 +0000, James Harris <james.harris.1

Exactly.

Like a united Ireland - that would work...

Or Eire could leave the EU and become part of the UK - that would
work...

R. Mark Clayton

2017-11-28 11:15:39 UTC

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:57:19 -0800 (PST), R. Mark Clayton

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:26:32 +0000, James Harris <james.harris.1

Exactly.

Like a united Ireland - that would work...

Or Eire could leave the EU and become part of the UK - that would
work...

You mean some sort of British Isles federation, with Ireland back in the Commonwealth - maybe?

OTOH NI wants to remain in the EU (~60:40) and there seems little doubt that so does the Republic.

Maybe if there was a third referendum over the whole of the British Isles there would be a different result?

Fredxxx

2017-11-28 14:20:58 UTC

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:57:19 -0800 (PST), R. Mark Clayton

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:26:32 +0000, James Harris <james.harris.1

Exactly.

Like a united Ireland - that would work...

Or Eire could leave the EU and become part of the UK - that would
work...

You mean some sort of British Isles federation, with Ireland back in the Commonwealth - maybe?
OTOH NI wants to remain in the EU (~60:40) and there seems little doubt that so does the Republic.
Maybe if there was a third referendum over the whole of the British Isles there would be a different result?

That may be possible, who knows. What is important is when we are told
it is one in a lifetime referendum, then that is what it is. Best get
used to it.

R. Mark Clayton

2017-11-28 19:47:40 UTC

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:57:19 -0800 (PST), R. Mark Clayton

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:26:32 +0000, James Harris <james.harris.1

Exactly.

Like a united Ireland - that would work...

Or Eire could leave the EU and become part of the UK - that would
work...

You mean some sort of British Isles federation, with Ireland back in the Commonwealth - maybe?
OTOH NI wants to remain in the EU (~60:40) and there seems little doubt that so does the Republic.
Maybe if there was a third referendum over the whole of the British Isles there would be a different result?

That may be possible, who knows. What is important is when we are told
it is one in a lifetime referendum, then that is what it is. Best get
used to it.

I had one in 1975, I got used to it but then...

Fredxx

2017-11-28 19:49:20 UTC

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:57:19 -0800 (PST), R. Mark Clayton

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:26:32 +0000, James Harris <james.harris.1

Exactly.

Like a united Ireland - that would work...

Or Eire could leave the EU and become part of the UK - that would
work...

You mean some sort of British Isles federation, with Ireland back in the Commonwealth - maybe?
OTOH NI wants to remain in the EU (~60:40) and there seems little doubt that so does the Republic.
Maybe if there was a third referendum over the whole of the British Isles there would be a different result?

That may be possible, who knows. What is important is when we are told
it is one in a lifetime referendum, then that is what it is. Best get
used to it.

I had one in 1975, I got used to it but then...

Then there can be another in 40 years time.

kat

2017-11-29 00:42:16 UTC

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:57:19 -0800 (PST), R. Mark Clayton

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:26:32 +0000, James Harris <james.harris.1

Exactly.

Like a united Ireland - that would work...

Or Eire could leave the EU and become part of the UK - that would
work...

You mean some sort of British Isles federation, with Ireland back in the Commonwealth - maybe?
OTOH NI wants to remain in the EU (~60:40) and there seems little doubt that so does the Republic.
Maybe if there was a third referendum over the whole of the British Isles there would be a different result?

That may be possible, who knows. What is important is when we are told
it is one in a lifetime referendum, then that is what it is. Best get
used to it.

I had one in 1975, I got used to it but then...

You might get one in another 42 years then.

--
kat

Post by R. Mark Clayton
^..^<

Judith

2017-11-28 17:20:45 UTC

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could
help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in
dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by
the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum
and what has
followed.
What is it please?

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered
by the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred solution?
Have they ever proposed anything?

As it's the UK that has created the problem,

I keep hearing such assertions in the media and they affect people's
beliefs but they are completely false. Britain has not created any
problem. If the UK had decided to break an EU treaty you might have
some justification in making that claim. But the UK has operated
throughout within the agreed rules.
Years ago the EU decided to say to member states: if you want to leave,
this is the procedure. The UK said, OK, we'll follow that exact
procedure. All this is open and above board, and quite correct
behaviour. There is no legitimate EU grievance here. They chose a rule.
We are obeying the rule. That's it. That's a perfectly legitimate thing
to do and the EU has no legitimate claim of grievance.

If the UK had broken the rules, maybe. But the UK is doing no more than
is its legitimate, documented, agreed, legal right. Therefore, all
parties - UK, Eire, EU - should behave as adults and work together to
solve the problem of the Ireland border. The UK is, in fact, being
sensible. The EU, however, is saying it has to be addressed before we
move on to the matters which are necessary to solve it. Que? Such an
approach is patently nonsensical. And the new Eire prime minister's
decision to use the media to advertise problems he has put in the way
is inept. What a bunch! How did we ever allow ourselves to become
enmeshed in this absurd organisation?

I don't think anybody is saying that the UK has broken any EU rules.

And yet you and others blame the UK for creating a problem, as if it has
broken some rule or other.

Post by Ian Jackson
However, the Brexiteers have (possibly inadvertently) put the UK in a
position where by leaving the EU, they will have to breach the Good
Friday agreement with the RoI.

Aside from trivial ones, what changes would have to be made?

I wonder if there would be any smuggling under your suggestion?

Or do you expect the smugglers to just fill in the correct form?

James Harris

2017-11-28 19:17:04 UTC

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could
help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in
dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just
identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by
the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum
and what has
followed.
What is it please?

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering
Government -
surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered
by the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred solution?
Have they ever proposed anything?

As it's the UK that has created the problem,

I keep hearing such assertions in the media and they affect people's
beliefs but they are completely false. Britain has not created any
problem. If the UK had decided to break an EU treaty you might have
some justification in making that claim. But the UK has operated
throughout within the agreed rules.
Years ago the EU decided to say to member states: if you want to leave,
this is the procedure. The UK said, OK, we'll follow that exact
procedure. All this is open and above board, and quite correct
behaviour. There is no legitimate EU grievance here. They chose a rule.
We are obeying the rule. That's it. That's a perfectly legitimate thing
to do and the EU has no legitimate claim of grievance.

If the UK had broken the rules, maybe. But the UK is doing no more than
is its legitimate, documented, agreed, legal right. Therefore, all
parties - UK, Eire, EU - should behave as adults and work together to
solve the problem of the Ireland border. The UK is, in fact, being
sensible. The EU, however, is saying it has to be addressed before we
move on to the matters which are necessary to solve it. Que? Such an
approach is patently nonsensical. And the new Eire prime minister's
decision to use the media to advertise problems he has put in the way
is inept. What a bunch! How did we ever allow ourselves to become
enmeshed in this absurd organisation?

I don't think anybody is saying that the UK has broken any EU rules.

And yet you and others blame the UK for creating a problem, as if it has
broken some rule or other.

Post by Ian Jackson
However, the Brexiteers have (possibly inadvertently) put the UK in a
position where by leaving the EU, they will have to breach the Good
Friday agreement with the RoI.

Aside from trivial ones, what changes would have to be made?

I wonder if there would be any smuggling under your suggestion?
Or do you expect the smugglers to just fill in the correct form?

You think there isn't smuggling already...?

--
James Harris

James Harris

2017-11-29 05:31:03 UTC

...

Post by Ian Jackson
As none of these solutions are likely to be acceptable (especially in
the RoI), what alternative(s) can the Brexiteers suggest?

* Firms who trade across the border should account for their own duties
in arrears, much as they do for VAT, and should get audited from time to
time.
* Where significant abuses are alleged, carry out specific
investigations. (Probably much as is done now.)
What's so difficult about something like that?
But what's really important is that the Irish politicians stop shouting
from the sidelines and complaining that "it's not our problem" and that
they roll their sleeves up and start working with the UK government to
come up with a solution.

Ian, you asked for a Brexiteer to suggest an alternative but - somewhat
to my surprise - you've raised no objections to the one I set out. Does
that mean you are surprised at how easy it could be? ;-)

--
James Harris

Ian Jackson

2017-11-29 08:31:00 UTC

Post by James Harris
...

Post by Ian Jackson
As none of these solutions are likely to be acceptable (especially in
the RoI), what alternative(s) can the Brexiteers suggest?

Yes - so, so easy. It's amazing that no one ever thought of it before.
In fact, you could apply the same principle to trade all over the world.

--
Iam

James Harris

2017-11-29 11:30:26 UTC

Post by James Harris
...

Post by Ian Jackson
As none of these solutions are likely to be acceptable (especially in
the RoI), what alternative(s) can the Brexiteers suggest?

Yes - so, so easy. It's amazing that no one ever thought of it before.

They did. Most taxes are paid in arrears and subject to inspection. Why
not do that for transactions across the Ireland border?

Post by Ian Jackson
In fact, you could apply the same principle to trade all over the world.

Maybe because trade all over the world doesn't carry the threat of
return to "the troubles". In fact, doesn't this go to the heart of the
debate. Those who doubt Brexit seem to expect that Brexiteers find a
perfect solution to the Ireland border without acknowledging that a
perfectly watertight solution is not necessary and is not present now!
Even as we speak, the Irish border separates different excise and
corporation tax rates and it is putatively a point of entry to the UK
without passport. That's the situation NOW. So there's no need for a
solution which will fix those problems too. They can be tolerated. As,
probably, can other imperfections. What's needed is something pragmatic,
which can be agreed so that everyone can get on with their lives. And
the sooner the Irish and the continental Europeans actually, finally,
start talking and engaging with the process the sooner a pragmatic way
forward can be come up with. Do you disagree? If so, in what respect?

--
James Harris

Yellow

2017-11-27 18:25:16 UTC

On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 10:46:51 +0000, Ian Jackson

Post by Ian Jackson
I don't think anybody is saying that the UK has broken any EU rules.
However, the Brexiteers have (possibly inadvertently) put the UK in a
position where by leaving the EU, they will have to breach the Good
Friday agreement with the RoI.

Only "possibly" inadvertently? LOL!

The other option being that when people turned up to vote on referendum
day they thought "I think I'll vote to leave the EU simply so as to
cause the UK to breach the Good Friday Agreement"?

There is a practical issue to be resolved - it is as simple as that -
and meanwhile all the vested interests are running around trying to see
how best they can manipulate the situation to their best advantage.

And further, I would be interested to see anyone in the mists of all
this who really and honestly gives a fig about the letter of the Good
Friday Agreement, beyond its use as a tool to get what they want.

None of this has anything to do with the Good Friday Agreement but
instead is about the EU and its rules.

Post by Ian Jackson
As none of these solutions are likely to be acceptable (especially in
the RoI), what alternative(s) can the Brexiteers suggest?

Again, you demonstrate well my grievance with all this with your ->
"what alternative(s) can the Brexiteers suggest?"

All you are trying to do is score points, nothing more and nothing less.

Ian Jackson

2017-11-27 19:49:25 UTC

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 10:46:51 +0000, Ian Jackson

When I said 'possibly', I was being generous.

I could have said "hadn't a clue about the consequences of voting to
leave the EU" - but I refrained from doing so.

Post by Yellow
There is a practical issue to be resolved - it is as simple as that -
and meanwhile all the vested interests are running around trying to see
how best they can manipulate the situation to their best advantage.

So what do you suggest as the simple solution?

Post by Yellow
And further, I would be interested to see anyone in the mists of all
this who really and honestly gives a fig about the letter of the Good
Friday Agreement, beyond its use as a tool to get what they want.

Oh dear. Before the Good Friday Agreement, hundreds of people on both
sides of the divide (and also quite a lot on neither side) died because
of sectarian violence. [Perhaps you didn't notice?] Since then, things
have been relatively peaceful.

None of this has anything to do with the Good Friday Agreement but
instead is about the EU and its rules.

The GFA guarantees lots of things - including a totally open and border
between the North and the South. The imposition of any customs controls
would violate this agreement.

Post by Ian Jackson
As none of these solutions are likely to be acceptable (especially in
the RoI), what alternative(s) can the Brexiteers suggest?

Again, you demonstrate well my grievance with all this with your ->
"what alternative(s) can the Brexiteers suggest?"
All you are trying to do is score points, nothing more and nothing less.

No. All we want is for someone to tell us a solution to the problem.
Obviously, you're unable to help us.

--
Ian

Yellow

2017-11-27 21:45:13 UTC

On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 19:49:25 +0000, Ian Jackson

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 10:46:51 +0000, Ian Jackson

Post by Ian Jackson
As none of these solutions are likely to be acceptable (especially in
the RoI), what alternative(s) can the Brexiteers suggest?

Again, you demonstrate well my grievance with all this with your ->
"what alternative(s) can the Brexiteers suggest?"
All you are trying to do is score points, nothing more and nothing less.

No.

Yes.

Judith

2017-11-28 17:24:19 UTC

On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 19:49:25 +0000, Ian Jackson
<***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Ian Jackson
No. All we want is for someone to tell us a solution to the problem.
Obviously, you're unable to help us.

Exactly my point : and still we are waiting.

Judith

2017-11-28 17:14:06 UTC

On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 09:38:47 +0000, James Harris <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

<snip>

Post by James Harris
I keep hearing such assertions in the media and they affect people's
beliefs but they are completely false. Britain has not created any
problem.

Oh dear. What the fuck is all the arguing about then.

I thought that it was the British Government who have decided that we are
leaving the E&U : the E&U haven't kicked us out have they?

Norman Wells

2017-11-27 09:45:27 UTC

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could
help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by
the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum
and what has
followed.
What is it please?

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered
by the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred
solution? Have they ever proposed anything?

Actually it's both sides' problem. It's for both sides to come up with
a workable solution. From what you say, it seems the EU is just being
entirely negative about it.

Judith

2017-11-28 17:25:30 UTC

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could
help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by
the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum
and what has
followed.
What is it please?

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered
by the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred
solution? Have they ever proposed anything?

Actually it's both sides' problem. It's for both sides to come up with
a workable solution. From what you say, it seems the EU is just being
entirely negative about it.

Perhaps you can share with us what the options are which the British Government
have put forward for discussion with the EU?

pamela

2017-11-27 10:55:26 UTC

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here
could help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are
in dealing with the border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could
just identify the preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was
identified by the Tories before they decided on having a
free-for-all with the referendum and what has followed.
What is it please?

IMO, necessity. Lots of problems are insoluble when people
believe they have the luxury of time. And that's the
situation we are in now. There is 'space' for absurd
posturing, megaphone diplomacy, and sabre rattling. The EU
is often thus. As one EU27 leader said before, the way
they proceed is to do a lot of arguing but when they have
to, they agree. In other words, some think they have time,
and what we are seeing now is posturing.

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the
Brexitering Government - surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being
offered by the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred
solution? Have they ever proposed anything?

As it's the UK that has created the problem, it's up to the UK
to provide a solution which is within the rules of the EU, and
acceptable to the RoI and NI. Even if the EU do suggest
something, it's unlikely to be acceptable to the RoI and the UK
and NI. As things stand, there IS no solution.

Very true. If the UK upsets the status quo and knew what would
happen then it must bear responsibility for causing the problem.

I recall several voices in the referendum debate highlighting the
problem of the Irish border..... but they got ignored.

Incubus

2017-11-28 13:25:13 UTC

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here
could help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are
in dealing with the border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could
just identify the preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was
identified by the Tories before they decided on having a
free-for-all with the referendum and what has followed.
What is it please?

IMO, necessity. Lots of problems are insoluble when people
believe they have the luxury of time. And that's the
situation we are in now. There is 'space' for absurd
posturing, megaphone diplomacy, and sabre rattling. The EU
is often thus. As one EU27 leader said before, the way
they proceed is to do a lot of arguing but when they have
to, they agree. In other words, some think they have time,
and what we are seeing now is posturing.

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the
Brexitering Government - surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being
offered by the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred
solution? Have they ever proposed anything?

As it's the UK that has created the problem, it's up to the UK
to provide a solution which is within the rules of the EU, and
acceptable to the RoI and NI. Even if the EU do suggest
something, it's unlikely to be acceptable to the RoI and the UK
and NI. As things stand, there IS no solution.

Very true. If the UK upsets the status quo and knew what would
happen then it must bear responsibility for causing the problem.

An utterly childish perspective.

Judith

2017-11-28 17:27:01 UTC

On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 13:25:13 +0000, Incubus <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by pamela
Very true. If the UK upsets the status quo and knew what would
happen then it must bear responsibility for causing the problem.

An utterly childish perspective.

Oh - the truth hurts, does it?

What is the UK government's preferred solution - what is your's?

Incubus

2017-11-29 11:27:03 UTC

Post by Judith
<snip>

Post by pamela
Very true. If the UK upsets the status quo and knew what would
happen then it must bear responsibility for causing the problem.

An utterly childish perspective.

Oh - the truth hurts, does it?
What is the UK government's preferred solution - what is your's?

Let me explain it to you. Goods that have tariffs imposed or are
contraband crossing the border into Northern Ireland is the UK's
problem. Equally, goods that have tariffs imposed or are contraband
crossing the border into the Republic of Ireland is Ireland's problem.
The UK and Ireland need to agree the solution. It's nothing to do with
the EU. You might disagree in which case let's say it's for the EU and
the UK to agree.

The idea that the UK has full responsibility for changing the balance is
laughable, kindergarten-level politics.

Ian Jackson

2017-11-29 12:11:36 UTC

Post by Judith
<snip>

Post by pamela
Very true. If the UK upsets the status quo and knew what would
happen then it must bear responsibility for causing the problem.

An utterly childish perspective.

Oh - the truth hurts, does it?
What is the UK government's preferred solution - what is your's?

Like a hard (or hard-ish) border? That will really go down well.

Post by Incubus
It's nothing to do with the EU. You might disagree in which case
let's say it's for the EU and the UK to agree.

It is indeed. The EU will almost certainly have to be happy with
whatever border controls the RoI (and the UK) agree to impose - not for
stuff and people leaving the RoI, but for stuff and people entering the
RoI (= EU-land).

Post by Incubus
The idea that the UK has full responsibility for changing the balance
is laughable, kindergarten-level politics.

So who IS responsible? Do tell.

--
Ian

Incubus

2017-11-29 12:30:16 UTC

Post by Judith
On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 13:25:13 +0000, Incubus
<snip>

Very true. If the UK upsets the status quo and knew what would
happen then it must bear responsibility for causing the problem.

An utterly childish perspective.

Oh - the truth hurts, does it?
What is the UK government's preferred solution - what is your's?

Like a hard (or hard-ish) border? That will really go down well.

I don't see why it would need to breach the Good Friday agreement in
that Irish nationals and UK nationals will still have the same rights
under the agreement.

It's nothing to do with the EU. You might disagree in which case
let's say it's for the EU and the UK to agree.

That's interesting because I see no evidence that the EU takes a similar
level of interest with the borders of other EU countries.

The idea that the UK has full responsibility for changing the balance
is laughable, kindergarten-level politics.

So who IS responsible? Do tell.

If the nature of a relationship changes, both parties must agree what
the new relationship will be. That doesn't include one party petulantly
making demands before any negotiations can begin. People sometimes
refer to 'Brexit' as a divorce - imagine how the Family Courts would
deal with a spouse behaving like the EU is doing.

Ian Jackson

2017-11-29 12:49:15 UTC

Post by Judith
On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 13:25:13 +0000, Incubus
<snip>

Very true. If the UK upsets the status quo and knew what would
happen then it must bear responsibility for causing the problem.

An utterly childish perspective.

Oh - the truth hurts, does it?
What is the UK government's preferred solution - what is your's?

Like a hard (or hard-ish) border? That will really go down well.

I don't see why it would need to breach the Good Friday agreement in
that Irish nationals and UK nationals will still have the same rights
under the agreement.

But they won't. As things stand at the moment, NI (= UK) citizens won't
have the same EU rights as those in the RoI. In many respects, this
might not matter, but this cannot be guaranteed.

It's nothing to do with the EU. You might disagree in which case
let's say it's for the EU and the UK to agree.

It is indeed. The EU will almost certainly have to be happy with
whatever border controls the RoI (and the UK) agree to impose - not
for stuff and people leaving the RoI, but for stuff and people
entering the RoI (= EU-land).

That's interesting because I see no evidence that the EU takes a
similar level of interest with the borders of other EU countries.

I would think that the EU expects all its members to make sure that they
collect all the appropriate tariffs, duties and VAT on imported goods.
They would expect the RoI to ensure it does the same.

The idea that the UK has full responsibility for changing the
balance is laughable, kindergarten-level politics.

So who IS responsible? Do tell.

If the nature of a relationship changes, both parties must agree what
the new relationship will be. That doesn't include one party
petulantly making demands before any negotiations can begin.

The settlement payment is the first step in the negotiations. If the UK
and the EU can't agree on this, there's no point moving on.

Post by Incubus
People sometimes refer to 'Brexit' as a divorce - imagine how the
Family Courts would deal with a spouse behaving like the EU is doing.

It's more a 'desertion' than a 'divorce'.

--
Ian

pensive hamster

2017-11-29 13:27:53 UTC

In message writes

[...]

Post by Ian Jackson
Like a hard (or hard-ish) border? That will really go down well.

I don't see why it would need to breach the Good Friday agreement in
that Irish nationals and UK nationals will still have the same rights
under the agreement.

But they won't. As things stand at the moment, NI (= UK) citizens won't
have the same EU rights as those in the RoI. In many respects, this
might not matter, but this cannot be guaranteed.

There seems to be a variety of opinions about how the
border may function in the future. Here are a couple more:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/885481/Brexit-news-Ireland-Gerry-Adams-EU-European-Union-Leo-Varadkar
Nov 28, 2017

Irish border battle: Gerry Adams calls on Irish leader to
BLOCK Brexit

IRELAND must block Brexit “because the North voted to
remain” amid chaos over the state of the Irish border, Sinn
Fein’s Gerry Adams has demanded.

Gerry Adams has long protested the results of the EU
referendum despite admitting last year that “whether it happens”
when he is “party leader or not, it will happen”.

But now the outgoing Sinn Fein President has begged Irish
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar to undo the will of the UK and block
Brexit.

Mr Adams said: “"Brexit in British Tory terms is bad for every
single person on this island and bad for the economy.

“We need to be standing very firm.

“The North needs to be kept in the European Union.”

The prominent Republican went on to accuse Theresa May’s
allies the DUP of being ”totally irrational and illogical" in their
approach to Brexit, accusing them of being "disrespectful”

He said: “The people of the North voted to remain and that
should be upheld".

It comes after a leading customs expert rejected Remainer and
EU doom-mongering about the future of the Irish border, saying
keeping it open after Brexit is “not rocket science”.

Dr Lars Karlsson, who is president of consultancy firm KGH
Border Services, said there are already international systems in
place which can help avoid a return to a hard frontier.

He said both sides need to accept that “there will be a border one
way or another” as a result of Brexit and then get on with coming
up with technical solutions to solve that challenge.

Dr Karlsson, who is also a former director of the World Customs
Organisation and deputy general of Swedish Customs, made the
remarks whilst addressing the European Parliament today.

The academic, who has been a border expert for 20 years, pointed
to frontiers between Norway and Sweden, Canada and the US and
even Australia and New Zealand as containing elements that can be
applied to Ireland. ...

[...]

Norman Wells

2017-11-29 15:08:24 UTC

In message writes

[...]

Post by Ian Jackson
Like a hard (or hard-ish) border? That will really go down well.

I don't see why it would need to breach the Good Friday agreement in
that Irish nationals and UK nationals will still have the same rights
under the agreement.

But they won't. As things stand at the moment, NI (= UK) citizens won't
have the same EU rights as those in the RoI. In many respects, this
might not matter, but this cannot be guaranteed.

There seems to be a variety of opinions about how the
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/885481/Brexit-news-Ireland-Gerry-Adams-EU-European-Union-Leo-Varadkar
Nov 28, 2017
Irish border battle: Gerry Adams calls on Irish leader to
BLOCK Brexit
IRELAND must block Brexit “because the North voted to
remain” amid chaos over the state of the Irish border, Sinn
Fein’s Gerry Adams has demanded.
Gerry Adams has long protested the results of the EU
referendum despite admitting last year that “whether it happens”
when he is “party leader or not, it will happen”.
But now the outgoing Sinn Fein President has begged Irish
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar to undo the will of the UK and block
Brexit.
Mr Adams said: “"Brexit in British Tory terms is bad for every
single person on this island and bad for the economy.
“We need to be standing very firm.
“The North needs to be kept in the European Union.”
The prominent Republican went on to accuse Theresa May’s
allies the DUP of being ”totally irrational and illogical" in their
approach to Brexit, accusing them of being "disrespectful”
He said: “The people of the North voted to remain and that
should be upheld".

They also voted back in 1973 by a huge margin to remain part of the UK:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_border_poll,_1973

Why then, I wonder, did young Gerry, being so respectful of democracy,
campaigned so hard and for so long for a united Ireland and, as far as I
know, still does?

Ian Jackson

2017-11-29 16:01:30 UTC

In message writes

[...]

Post by Ian Jackson
Like a hard (or hard-ish) border? That will really go down well.

I don't see why it would need to breach the Good Friday agreement in
that Irish nationals and UK nationals will still have the same rights
under the agreement.

But they won't. As things stand at the moment, NI (= UK) citizens won't
have the same EU rights as those in the RoI. In many respects, this
might not matter, but this cannot be guaranteed.

There seems to be a variety of opinions about how the
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/885481/Brexit-news-Ireland-Gerry-Adam
s-EU-European-Union-Leo-Varadkar
Nov 28, 2017
Irish border battle: Gerry Adams calls on Irish leader to
BLOCK Brexit
IRELAND must block Brexit “because the North voted to
remain” amid chaos over the state of the Irish border, Sinn
Fein’s Gerry Adams has demanded.
Gerry Adams has long protested the results of the EU
referendum despite admitting last year that “whether it happens”
when he is “party leader or not, it will happen”.
But now the outgoing Sinn Fein President has begged Irish
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar to undo the will of the UK and block
Brexit.
Mr Adams said: “"Brexit in British Tory terms is bad for every
single person on this island and bad for the economy.
“We need to be standing very firm.
“The North needs to be kept in the European Union.”
The prominent Republican went on to accuse Theresa May’s
allies the DUP of being ”totally irrational and illogical" in their
approach to Brexit, accusing them of being "disrespectful”
He said: “The people of the North voted to remain and that
should be upheld".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_border_poll,_1973

Very few Catholics voted, and the 59% turnout largely mirrored the ratio
of Unionists to Republicans.

Post by Norman Wells
Why then, I wonder, did young Gerry, being so respectful of democracy,
campaigned so hard and for so long for a united Ireland and, as far as
I know, still does?

I'm pretty sure that, to a man, almost every Republican who voted, voted
to remain in the EU - and obviously a lot of Loyalists did too.

--
Ian

Norman Wells

2017-11-29 16:20:03 UTC

In message writes

[...]

Like a hard (or hard-ish) border? That will really go down well.

I don't see why it would need to breach the Good Friday agreement in
that Irish nationals and UK nationals will still have the same rights
under the agreement.

But they won't. As things stand at the moment, NI (= UK) citizens won't
have the same EU rights as those in the RoI. In many respects, this
might not matter, but this cannot be guaranteed.

There seems to be a variety of opinions about how the
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/885481/Brexit-news-Ireland-Gerry-Adam
s-EU-European-Union-Leo-Varadkar
Nov 28, 2017
Irish border battle: Gerry Adams calls on Irish leader to
BLOCK Brexit
IRELAND must block Brexit “because the North voted to
remain” amid chaos over the state of the Irish border, Sinn
Fein’s Gerry Adams has demanded.
Gerry Adams has long protested the results of the EU
referendum despite admitting last year that “whether it happens”
when he is “party leader or not, it will happen”.
But now the outgoing Sinn Fein President has begged Irish
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar to undo the will of the UK and block
Brexit.
Mr Adams said: “"Brexit in British Tory terms is bad for every
single person on this island and bad for the economy.
“We need to be standing very firm.
“The North needs to be kept in the European Union.”
The prominent Republican went on to accuse Theresa May’s
allies the DUP of being ”totally irrational and illogical" in their
approach to Brexit, accusing them of being "disrespectful”
He said: “The people of the North voted to remain and that
should be upheld".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_border_poll,_1973

Very few Catholics voted,

Too bad. If you don't vote, your views don't matter. It's like that in
any ballot.

Post by Ian Jackson
and the 59% turnout largely mirrored the ratio
of Unionists to Republicans.

To which I say, so what?

Post by Norman Wells
Why then, I wonder, did young Gerry, being so respectful of democracy,
campaigned so hard and for so long for a united Ireland and, as far as
I know, still does?

I'm pretty sure that, to a man, almost every Republican who voted, voted
to remain in the EU - and obviously a lot of Loyalists did too.

You can make whatever unwarranted assumptions you want. The fact is,
however, that they were voting as part of the UK as a whole.

Yellow

2017-11-29 21:26:22 UTC

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 16:01:30 +0000, Ian Jackson

Post by Norman Wells
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_border_poll,_1973

Very few Catholics voted, and the 59% turnout largely mirrored the ratio
of Unionists to Republicans.

Post by Norman Wells
Why then, I wonder, did young Gerry, being so respectful of democracy,
campaigned so hard and for so long for a united Ireland and, as far as
I know, still does?

I'm pretty sure that, to a man, almost every Republican who voted, voted
to remain in the EU - and obviously a lot of Loyalists did too.

Why? Just because someone might like the idea of a united Ireland does
not mean they would also wish to be in the EU. How are the two things
even related?

pensive hamster

2017-11-29 17:17:57 UTC

[...]

Post by pensive hamster
He said: “The people of the North voted to remain and that
should be upheld".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_border_poll,_1973
Why then, I wonder, did young Gerry, being so respectful of democracy,
campaigned so hard and for so long for a united Ireland and, as far as I
know, still does?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinn_F%C3%A9in

R. Mark Clayton

2017-11-29 17:40:40 UTC

In message writes

[...]

Post by Ian Jackson
Like a hard (or hard-ish) border? That will really go down well.

I don't see why it would need to breach the Good Friday agreement in
that Irish nationals and UK nationals will still have the same rights
under the agreement.

But they won't. As things stand at the moment, NI (= UK) citizens won't
have the same EU rights as those in the RoI. In many respects, this
might not matter, but this cannot be guaranteed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_border_poll,_1973

Quite funny that given how the UK voted by a huge margin (2:1) to join the EC in 1975 and UKIP et al have spent decades trying to reverse it.

Post by Norman Wells
Why then, I wonder, did young Gerry, being so respectful of democracy,
campaigned so hard and for so long for a united Ireland and, as far as I
know, still does?

Yes, but politics and views change - de Valera died in 1975, the Irish constitution has been amended (special position of RC church removed etc.), so the position in Northern Ireland now is: -

2016 - large majority to remain in EU.
2017 - unionist parties get less than half the popular vote in a General Election for the first time.

a vote over the whole island would be overwhelmingly in favour of union, and even the north might...

Norman Wells

2017-11-29 19:34:04 UTC

Post by Norman Wells
Why then, I wonder, did young Gerry, being so respectful of democracy,
campaigned so hard and for so long for a united Ireland and, as far as I
know, still does?

Yes, but politics and views change - de Valera died in 1975, the Irish constitution has been amended (special position of RC church removed etc.), so the position in Northern Ireland now is: -
2016 - large majority to remain in EU.
2017 - unionist parties get less than half the popular vote in a General Election for the first time.
a vote over the whole island would be overwhelmingly in favour of union,

Of course it would be. Why Northern Ireland exists at all and wants to
be a part of the UK is to protect its citizens from being an oppressed
minority in a country dominated by the south.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
and even the north might...

Not if the vote in 1973 is anything to go by:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_border_poll,_1973

It was as decisive as Gibraltar's referendum in 2002 to remain with the
UK and reject joint sovereignty with Spain. In both cases the vote was
over 98% in favour.

Vidcapper

2017-11-30 07:49:16 UTC

Post by Norman Wells
Why then, I wonder, did young Gerry, being so respectful of democracy,
campaigned so hard and for so long for a united Ireland and, as far as I
know, still does?

Yes, but politics and views change - de Valera died in 1975, the Irish
constitution has been amended (special position of RC church removed
etc.), so the position in Northern Ireland now is: -
2016 - large majority to remain in EU.
2017 - unionist parties get less than half the popular vote in a
General Election for the first time.
a vote over the whole island would be overwhelmingly in favour of union,

Of course it would be. Why Northern Ireland exists at all and wants to
be a part of the UK is to protect its citizens from being an oppressed
minority in a country dominated by the south.

An unfounded fear IMO, as Human Rights laws would prevent that.

--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham

Vidcapper

2017-11-30 07:47:57 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Quite funny that given how the UK voted by a huge margin (2:1) to
join the EC in 1975 and UKIP et al have spent decades trying to
reverse it.

UKIP wasn't founded until 1991 - perhaps because it took that long for
people to realise the 'trading bloc' they thought they had joined,
actually had ambitions to become a 'United States of Europe', with each
stage of the process being taken without consulting the electorate.

--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham

Yellow

2017-11-29 21:03:22 UTC

In message writes

[...]

Post by Ian Jackson
Like a hard (or hard-ish) border? That will really go down well.

I don't see why it would need to breach the Good Friday agreement in
that Irish nationals and UK nationals will still have the same rights
under the agreement.

But they won't. As things stand at the moment, NI (= UK) citizens won't
have the same EU rights as those in the RoI. In many respects, this
might not matter, but this cannot be guaranteed.

There seems to be a variety of opinions about how the
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/885481/Brexit-news-Ireland-Gerry-Adams-EU-European-Union-Leo-Varadkar
Nov 28, 2017
Irish border battle: Gerry Adams calls on Irish leader to
BLOCK Brexit
IRELAND must block Brexit ?because the North voted to
remain? amid chaos over the state of the Irish border, Sinn
Fein?s Gerry Adams has demanded.
Gerry Adams has long protested the results of the EU
referendum despite admitting last year that ?whether it happens?
when he is ?party leader or not, it will happen?.
But now the outgoing Sinn Fein President has begged Irish
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar to undo the will of the UK and block
Brexit.
Mr Adams said: ?"Brexit in British Tory terms is bad for every
single person on this island and bad for the economy.
?We need to be standing very firm.
?The North needs to be kept in the European Union.?
The prominent Republican went on to accuse Theresa May?s
allies the DUP of being ?totally irrational and illogical" in their
approach to Brexit, accusing them of being "disrespectful?
He said: ?The people of the North voted to remain and that
should be upheld".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_border_poll,_1973

Wow - that was a huge margin.

Post by Norman Wells
Why then, I wonder, did young Gerry, being so respectful of democracy,
campaigned so hard and for so long for a united Ireland and, as far as I
know, still does?

I see no reason why they should not campaign for a united Ireland.
Blowing people up, I have an issue with, but campaigning - go for it.

Norman Wells

2017-11-29 21:11:25 UTC

In message writes

[...]

Post by Ian Jackson
Like a hard (or hard-ish) border? That will really go down well.

I don't see why it would need to breach the Good Friday agreement in
that Irish nationals and UK nationals will still have the same rights
under the agreement.

But they won't. As things stand at the moment, NI (= UK) citizens won't
have the same EU rights as those in the RoI. In many respects, this
might not matter, but this cannot be guaranteed.

There seems to be a variety of opinions about how the
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/885481/Brexit-news-Ireland-Gerry-Adams-EU-European-Union-Leo-Varadkar
Nov 28, 2017
Irish border battle: Gerry Adams calls on Irish leader to
BLOCK Brexit
IRELAND must block Brexit ?because the North voted to
remain? amid chaos over the state of the Irish border, Sinn
Fein?s Gerry Adams has demanded.
Gerry Adams has long protested the results of the EU
referendum despite admitting last year that ?whether it happens?
when he is ?party leader or not, it will happen?.
But now the outgoing Sinn Fein President has begged Irish
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar to undo the will of the UK and block
Brexit.
Mr Adams said: ?"Brexit in British Tory terms is bad for every
single person on this island and bad for the economy.
?We need to be standing very firm.
?The North needs to be kept in the European Union.?
The prominent Republican went on to accuse Theresa May?s
allies the DUP of being ?totally irrational and illogical" in their
approach to Brexit, accusing them of being "disrespectful?
He said: ?The people of the North voted to remain and that
should be upheld".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_border_poll,_1973

Wow - that was a huge margin.

Post by Norman Wells
Why then, I wonder, did young Gerry, being so respectful of democracy,
campaigned so hard and for so long for a united Ireland and, as far as I
know, still does?

I see no reason why they should not campaign for a united Ireland.
Blowing people up, I have an issue with, but campaigning - go for it.

Utterly hypocritical though, when he said 'The people of the North voted
to remain and that should be upheld' in the EU referendum.

Does he think referendum results should be respected or not? Or only
the ones he likes?

Yellow

2017-11-29 21:46:23 UTC

In message writes

[...]

Post by Ian Jackson
Like a hard (or hard-ish) border? That will really go down well.

I don't see why it would need to breach the Good Friday agreement in
that Irish nationals and UK nationals will still have the same rights
under the agreement.

But they won't. As things stand at the moment, NI (= UK) citizens won't
have the same EU rights as those in the RoI. In many respects, this
might not matter, but this cannot be guaranteed.

There seems to be a variety of opinions about how the
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/885481/Brexit-news-Ireland-Gerry-Adams-EU-European-Union-Leo-Varadkar
Nov 28, 2017
Irish border battle: Gerry Adams calls on Irish leader to
BLOCK Brexit
IRELAND must block Brexit ?because the North voted to
remain? amid chaos over the state of the Irish border, Sinn
Fein?s Gerry Adams has demanded.
Gerry Adams has long protested the results of the EU
referendum despite admitting last year that ?whether it happens?
when he is ?party leader or not, it will happen?.
But now the outgoing Sinn Fein President has begged Irish
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar to undo the will of the UK and block
Brexit.
Mr Adams said: ?"Brexit in British Tory terms is bad for every
single person on this island and bad for the economy.
?We need to be standing very firm.
?The North needs to be kept in the European Union.?
The prominent Republican went on to accuse Theresa May?s
allies the DUP of being ?totally irrational and illogical" in their
approach to Brexit, accusing them of being "disrespectful?
He said: ?The people of the North voted to remain and that
should be upheld".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_border_poll,_1973

Wow - that was a huge margin.

Post by Norman Wells
Why then, I wonder, did young Gerry, being so respectful of democracy,
campaigned so hard and for so long for a united Ireland and, as far as I
know, still does?

I see no reason why they should not campaign for a united Ireland.
Blowing people up, I have an issue with, but campaigning - go for it.

Utterly hypocritical though, when he said 'The people of the North voted
to remain and that should be upheld' in the EU referendum.

He is simply campaigning. And really, I have no problem with that.

Post by Norman Wells
Does he think referendum results should be respected or not? Or only
the ones he likes?

pamela

2017-11-29 12:26:05 UTC

Post by Judith
On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 13:25:13 +0000, Incubus
<snip>

Post by pamela
Very true. If the UK upsets the status quo and knew what
would happen then it must bear responsibility for causing the
problem.

An utterly childish perspective.

Oh - the truth hurts, does it?
What is the UK government's preferred solution - what is
your's?

Your first two points are correct. The EU adds an extra
consideration because the Irish border will become an external
border of the EU which Eire will be required to maintain and which
the Uk will be required not to breach.

Post by Incubus
You might disagree in which case let's say it's for the EU and
the UK to agree.
The idea that the UK has full responsibility for changing the
balance is laughable, kindergarten-level politics.

The UK's role is that of a change agent. If the UK's desired
change is to happen then it might want to take part in making it
possible.

Incubus

2017-11-29 12:31:28 UTC

Post by Judith
On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 13:25:13 +0000, Incubus
<snip>

Post by pamela
Very true. If the UK upsets the status quo and knew what
would happen then it must bear responsibility for causing the
problem.

An utterly childish perspective.

Oh - the truth hurts, does it?
What is the UK government's preferred solution - what is
your's?

The UK's role is that of a change agent. If the UK's desired
change is to happen then it might want to take part in making it
possible.

See my reply to M. Jackson with regard to petulant behaviour.

Judith

2017-11-28 17:11:54 UTC

On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 08:40:52 +0000, Ian Jackson

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could
help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by
the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum
and what has
followed.
What is it please?

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered
by the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred solution?
Have they ever proposed anything?

Perhaps a second referendum would work?

pamela

2017-12-01 00:55:07 UTC

Post by Judith
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 08:40:52 +0000, Ian Jackson

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could
help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are
in
dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could
just
identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was
identified by
the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the
referendum
and what has
followed.
What is it please?

IMO, necessity. Lots of problems are insoluble when people
believe they have the luxury of time. And that's the
situation we are in now. There is 'space' for absurd
posturing, megaphone diplomacy, and sabre rattling. The EU
is often thus. As one EU27 leader said before, the way
they proceed is to do a lot of arguing but when they have
to, they agree. In other words, some think they have time,
and what we are seeing now is posturing.

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the
Brexitering
Government -
surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being
offered
by the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred
solution? Have they ever proposed anything?

As it's the UK that has created the problem, it's up to the UK
to provide a solution which is within the rules of the EU, and
acceptable to the RoI and NI. Even if the EU do suggest
something, it's unlikely to be acceptable to the RoI and the UK
and NI. As things stand, there IS no solution.

Perhaps a second referendum would work?

That's an interesting idea. If the people of Northrn Ireland
voted in the referendum without being told the implications then
they can say they were misled.

Phi

2017-12-01 07:55:06 UTC

Post by Judith
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 08:40:52 +0000, Ian Jackson

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

I wonder if any of the ardent articulate� Brexiteers here
could
help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are
in
dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could
just
identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was
identified by
the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the
referendum
and what has
followed.
What is it please?

IMO, necessity. Lots of problems are insoluble when people
believe they have the luxury of time. And that's the
situation we are in now. There is 'space' for absurd
posturing, megaphone diplomacy, and sabre rattling. The EU
is often thus. As one EU27 leader said before, the way
they proceed is to do a lot of arguing but when they have
to, they agree. In other words, some think they have time,
and what we are seeing now is posturing.

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the
Brexitering
Government -
surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered
by the EU that counts.

It's as much their border as ours. What is *their* preferred
solution? Have they ever proposed anything?

As it's the UK that has created the problem, it's up to the UK
to provide a solution which is within the rules of the EU, and
acceptable to the RoI and NI. Even if the EU do suggest
something, it's unlikely to be acceptable to the RoI and the UK
and NI. As things stand, there IS no solution.

Perhaps a second referendum would work?

That's an interesting idea. If the people of Northrn Ireland
voted in the referendum without being told the implications then
they can say they were misled.

Eire could leave the EU

Tim Woodall

2017-12-01 09:49:26 UTC

Post by Yellow
Eire could leave the EU

Not possible in time. Even if Eire activated A50 today we'd be out of
the SM and so need to address what to do about the border.

There's absolutely no indication that the Irish people want to leave the
EU. In fact, they've been inundated with people asserting their Irish
ancestry and getting an Irish passport in order to stay as EU citizens.

Judith

2017-11-28 16:53:48 UTC

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

There may be, but the hard fact is that it's what is being offered by
the EU that counts.

It would be nice for us and the EU to know what our government's acceptable
options are - plus knowing the preferred one.

James Harris

2017-11-26 22:36:26 UTC

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

Well, I don't speak for them and am wary of their approach but since you
ask specifically about the government's ideas here's what little I've
picked up.

1. Maintain the common travel area. No visible presence on the border.
Willingness to accept that some revenue may be lost.

2. An FTA operating across the border and some form of customs
agreement. (See section 9 of
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-governments-negotiating-objectives-for-exiting-the-eu-pm-speech.)

3. Allowing firms which operate across the border to account for the
duties monthly or quarterly in arrears.

IMO their approach is pragmatic and takes into consideration the special
needs of Ireland. I don't see any reasonableness at all from the other
side which, sadly, seems more interested in inflexibility, ineptitude,
coercion, intransigence and megaphone diplomacy. The longer all this
goes on the more certain I am we made the right choice for the long term.

--
James Harris

James Harris

2017-11-26 23:04:44 UTC

...

Post by Judith
Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

Here's some more on that from Peter Lilley

Post by James Harris
IMO their approach is pragmatic and takes into consideration the special
needs of Ireland. I don't see any reasonableness at all from the other
side which, sadly, seems more interested in inflexibility, ineptitude,
coercion, intransigence and megaphone diplomacy. The longer all this
goes on the more certain I am we made the right choice for the long term.

--
James Harris

James Harris

2017-11-26 23:09:18 UTC

...

Post by Judith
Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

Some more on that:

People can also move freely around the UK, Ireland, Isle of Man and
Channel Islands within the Common Travel Area. That means there are no
official passport checks for someone travelling from Dublin to Belfast
to London.

The Common Travel Area, despite the capital letters, is a pretty
informal arrangement that existed before the UK and Ireland joined the
EU in 1973.

In practice the land border is almost completely open, but airlines and
ferry operators require photo ID, so passports are still needed when
going across the Irish Sea. Passengers are also asked for passports at
airports where immigration officers can’t tell that they’ve come from
within the Common Travel Area.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-referendum-and-irish-border/

--
James Harris

Ian Jackson

2017-11-27 08:52:14 UTC

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

Well, I don't speak for them and am wary of their approach but since
you ask specifically about the government's ideas here's what little
I've picked up.
1. Maintain the common travel area. No visible presence on the border.
Willingness to accept that some revenue may be lost.
2. An FTA operating across the border and some form of customs
agreement. (See section 9 of
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-governments-negotiating-objec
tives-for-exiting-the-eu-pm-speech.)
3. Allowing firms which operate across the border to account for the
duties monthly or quarterly in arrears.
IMO their approach is pragmatic and takes into consideration the
special needs of Ireland. I don't see any reasonableness at all from
the other side which, sadly, seems more interested in inflexibility,
ineptitude, coercion, intransigence and megaphone diplomacy. The longer
all this goes on the more certain I am we made the right choice for the
long term.

It looks like you're expecting some genius to step in and sort things
out for the UK. I doubt if this will happen (and it's certainly unlikely
to be from the UK side).

You also seem to be implying that although the UK have made one hell of
mess of things, and as time goes on the extent of the mess seems to be
getting greater and greater, then this justifies the UK's decision to
leave the EU. I'm not sure I understand your reasoning.

--
Ian

James Harris

2017-11-27 09:23:51 UTC

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the Brexitering Government -
surely there is one?

Well, I don't speak for them and am wary of their approach but since
you ask specifically about the government's ideas here's what little
I've picked up.
1. Maintain the common travel area. No visible presence on the border.
Willingness to accept that some revenue may be lost.
2. An FTA operating across the border and some form of customs
agreement. (See section 9 of
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-governments-negotiating-objec
tives-for-exiting-the-eu-pm-speech.)
3. Allowing firms which operate across the border to account for the
duties monthly or quarterly in arrears.
IMO their approach is pragmatic and takes into consideration the
special needs of Ireland. I don't see any reasonableness at all from
the other side which, sadly, seems more interested in inflexibility,
ineptitude, coercion, intransigence and megaphone diplomacy. The longer
all this goes on the more certain I am we made the right choice for the
long term.

It looks like you're expecting some genius to step in and sort things
out for the UK. I doubt if this will happen (and it's certainly unlikely
to be from the UK side).
You also seem to be implying that although the UK have made one hell of
mess of things, and as time goes on the extent of the mess seems to be
getting greater and greater, then this justifies the UK's decision to
leave the EU. I'm not sure I understand your reasoning.

I don't know where you get your views, Ian. My post, above, was
primarily about the government's approach - which is what Pamela asked
for information on.

--
James Harris

James Harris

2017-11-27 09:24:47 UTC

On 27/11/2017 09:23, James Harris wrote:

...

which is what Pamela asked for information on.

Sorry, not Pamela but Judith!

--
James Harris

Norman Wells

2017-11-27 09:46:37 UTC

Post by James Harris
...

which is what Pamela asked for information on.

Sorry, not Pamela but Judith!

Don't worry. They're all the same.

pamela

2017-11-27 10:50:49 UTC

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:14:36 +0000, James Harris

Post by Judith
I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here
could help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are
in dealing with the border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could
just identify the preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified
by the Tories before they decided on having a free-for-all
with the referendum and what has followed.
What is it please?

IMO, necessity. Lots of problems are insoluble when people
believe they have the luxury of time. And that's the
situation we are in now. There is 'space' for absurd
posturing, megaphone diplomacy, and sabre rattling. The EU is
often thus. As one EU27 leader said before, the way they
proceed is to do a lot of arguing but when they have to, they
agree. In other words, some think they have time, and what we
are seeing now is posturing.

Yes : but what is the actual preferred solution by the
Brexitering Government -surely there is one?

Well, I don't speak for them and am wary of their approach but
since you ask specifically about the government's ideas here's
what little I've picked up.
1. Maintain the common travel area. No visible presence on the
border. Willingness to accept that some revenue may be lost.
2. An FTA operating across the border and some form of customs
agreement. (See section 9 of
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-governments-
negotiating-objec tives-for-exiting-the-eu-pm-speech.)
3. Allowing firms which operate across the border to account for
the duties monthly or quarterly in arrears.
IMO their approach is pragmatic and takes into consideration the
special needs of Ireland. I don't see any reasonableness at all
from the other side which, sadly, seems more interested in
inflexibility, ineptitude, coercion, intransigence and megaphone
diplomacy. The longer all this goes on the more certain I am we
made the right choice for the long term.

It looks like you're expecting some genius to step in and sort
things out for the UK. I doubt if this will happen (and it's
certainly unlikely to be from the UK side).
You also seem to be implying that although the UK have made one
hell of mess of things, and as time goes on the extent of the
mess seems to be getting greater and greater, then this
justifies the UK's decision to leave the EU. I'm not sure I
understand your reasoning.

Yes, that last point seemed strange.... it seemed to say that the
best way to deal with something difficult and important is to put
unreasonable time pressure on it. Oh dear!

If that thinking is how Brexiteers have been working then it's no
surprise the current negotiations are in such a mess and non-EU
trade talks haven't started.

Ian Jackson

2017-11-27 11:02:09 UTC

Post by Ian Jackson
It looks like you're expecting some genius to step in and sort
things out for the UK. I doubt if this will happen (and it's
certainly unlikely to be from the UK side).
You also seem to be implying that although the UK have made one
hell of mess of things, and as time goes on the extent of the
mess seems to be getting greater and greater, then this
justifies the UK's decision to leave the EU. I'm not sure I
understand your reasoning.

Yes, that last point seemed strange.... it seemed to say that the
best way to deal with something difficult and important is to put
unreasonable time pressure on it. Oh dear!
If that thinking is how Brexiteers have been working then it's no
surprise the current negotiations are in such a mess and non-EU
trade talks haven't started.

Don't forget that quite a lot of phone-in Brexiteers were furious that
we were still in the EU on 24 June, 2016. Some of the more-sensible ones
are only furious about the possibility of there being a 2-year
transition period.

--
Ian

pamela

2017-11-27 13:37:56 UTC

Post by Ian Jackson
It looks like you're expecting some genius to step in and sort
things out for the UK. I doubt if this will happen (and it's
certainly unlikely to be from the UK side).
You also seem to be implying that although the UK have made
one hell of mess of things, and as time goes on the extent of
the mess seems to be getting greater and greater, then this
justifies the UK's decision to leave the EU. I'm not sure I
understand your reasoning.

Yes, that last point seemed strange.... it seemed to say that
the best way to deal with something difficult and important is
to put unreasonable time pressure on it. Oh dear!
If that thinking is how Brexiteers have been working then it's
no surprise the current negotiations are in such a mess and
non-EU trade talks haven't started.

Don't forget that quite a lot of phone-in Brexiteers were
furious that we were still in the EU on 24 June, 2016. Some of
the more-sensible ones are only furious about the possibility of
there being a 2-year transition period.

Following the referendum, Leavers were jubilant with cries of
"They said we couldn't do it".

Sadly they have taken the same approach towards the actual process
of leaving. They now propose all sorts of impractical nonsense
with the same hope that yet another fluke will happen and a fairy
godmother will make all their dreams come true.

One fluke isn't enough and they now expect two, three or more.

Yellow

2017-11-27 18:32:36 UTC

On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:02:09 +0000, Ian Jackson

Yes, that last point seemed strange.... it seemed to say that the
best way to deal with something difficult and important is to put
unreasonable time pressure on it. Oh dear!
If that thinking is how Brexiteers have been working then it's no
surprise the current negotiations are in such a mess and non-EU
trade talks haven't started.

Have you phoned O'Brien to tell him just how furious you are about
everything else?

You can commiserate with each other. :-)

Ian Jackson

2017-11-27 19:50:01 UTC

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:02:09 +0000, Ian Jackson

Yes, that last point seemed strange.... it seemed to say that the
best way to deal with something difficult and important is to put
unreasonable time pressure on it. Oh dear!
If that thinking is how Brexiteers have been working then it's no
surprise the current negotiations are in such a mess and non-EU
trade talks haven't started.

Have you phoned O'Brien to tell him just how furious you are about
everything else?
You can commiserate with each other. :-)

Please stop being silly.

--
Ian

pamela

2017-11-27 20:15:37 UTC

Post by Yellow
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:02:09 +0000, Ian Jackson

Post by Ian Jackson
It looks like you're expecting some genius to step in and
sort things out for the UK. I doubt if this will happen
(and it's certainly unlikely to be from the UK side).
You also seem to be implying that although the UK have made
one hell of mess of things, and as time goes on the extent
of the mess seems to be getting greater and greater, then
this justifies the UK's decision to leave the EU. I'm not
sure I understand your reasoning.

Yes, that last point seemed strange.... it seemed to say that
the best way to deal with something difficult and important
is to put unreasonable time pressure on it. Oh dear!
If that thinking is how Brexiteers have been working then
it's no surprise the current negotiations are in such a mess
and non-EU trade talks haven't started.

Don't forget that quite a lot of phone-in Brexiteers were
furious that we were still in the EU on 24 June, 2016. Some of
the more-sensible ones are only furious about the possibility
of there being a 2-year transition period.

Have you phoned O'Brien to tell him just how furious you are
about everything else?
You can commiserate with each other. :-)

Please stop being silly.

It's his attempt at a Reductio Ad Absurdum argument!

jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)

2017-11-26 19:31:34 UTC

It's simple enough. The border between the Irish Republic and Norn
Iron will become just like any other EU-non EU border, e.g. the border
between Norway and Sweden. How the two parties deal with it is
entirely up to them.
- -

" I don't even have the heart to tell him I've never infested
Arizona."
- Klaun Shittinb'ricks (1940 - ), acknowledging that he lied
from the very beginning, A jew scam, as expected

Iudaei orbem terrarum infestant.
- correct Latin

"Die Juden sind unser Unglück!"
- Heinrich von Treitschke (1834 - 1896)

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out
because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade
Unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Trade
Unionist. Then they came for the jews, and I did not speak out
because I did not give a shit. Then they came for me and there
wasn't a single commie bastard left to speak for me."
- Martin Niemöller (1892 - 1984)

Fformby-Smythe's Law of zionism:
"The importance of 'Israeel' to any given jew is directly proportional
to the square of the distance between that jew and 'Israeel'."

The Peeler

2017-11-26 21:45:14 UTC

Post by jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 11:31:34 -0800, serbian bitch Razovic, the resident
psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, making an ass
of herself as "jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry'

Are you sure, psychopath? Psychopathically sure? <BG>

--
Retarded, anal, subnormal and extremely proud of it: our resident
psychopath, dumb serbian bitch G. Razovic (aka "The Rectum").

Omega

2017-11-26 20:15:32 UTC

Give back the six counties?

omega

pensive hamster

2017-11-26 21:31:37 UTC

Give back the six counties?

Well, that should certainly ensure the support of the DUP
at Westminster ...

http://www.mydup.com/about-us

'The DUP wants Northern Ireland to celebrate its centenary as a
beacon of achievement within the United Kingdom. We want the
hard won peace and stability to build a prosperity that flows to
each district, community and family. We want to normalise our
institutions and political arrangements to demonstrate that
democratic standards apply and fairness and equality of
opportunity is the right of all.

'The DUP wants to strengthen our relationship within the United
Kingdom. Our representatives in Westminster dedicate themselves
to involvement in the affairs of the Nation and in partnership with
their Stormont colleagues maximise Northern Ireland’s contribution
to the United Kingdom. We will work to increase the respect and
status of our region within the Union. ...'

Judith

2017-11-26 21:39:45 UTC

Give back the six counties?
omega

Well at least we could ask for the £1 billion bribe back from the DUP as they
would cease to exist themselves: could be the result of their closing down.

James Harris

2017-11-26 22:37:39 UTC

Give back the six counties?
omega

Well at least we could ask for the £1 billion bribe back from the DUP as they
would cease to exist themselves: could be the result of their closing down.

The £1bn doesn't go to the DUP.

--
James Harris

Judith

2017-11-29 00:13:30 UTC

Give back the six counties?
omega

Well at least we could ask for the £1 billion bribe back from the DUP as they
would cease to exist themselves: could be the result of their closing down.

The £1bn doesn't go to the DUP.

You are right : and it wasn't a bribe either.

James Harris

2017-11-29 00:30:39 UTC

Give back the six counties?
omega

Well at least we could ask for the £1 billion bribe back from the DUP as they
would cease to exist themselves: could be the result of their closing down.

The £1bn doesn't go to the DUP.

You are right : and it wasn't a bribe either.

No, it /was/ a bribe (for some definition of the word) and probably
didn't need to be paid as even with a rainbow coalition Corbyn could not
have had a majority against the Tories without him also needing DUP
support - which they were unlikely to provide given his past support for
their nemesis - the IRA.

--
James Harris

Yellow

2017-11-29 12:16:02 UTC

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 00:30:39 +0000, James Harris <james.harris.1

Give back the six counties?
omega

Well at least we could ask for the £1 billion bribe back from the DUP as they
would cease to exist themselves: could be the result of their closing down.

The £1bn doesn't go to the DUP.

You are right : and it wasn't a bribe either.

No, it /was/ a bribe

Didn't the court case on whether it was a bribe or not get thrown out on
the basis that it was silly?

Post by James Harris
(for some definition of the word) and probably
didn't need to be paid as even with a rainbow coalition Corbyn could not
have had a majority against the Tories without him also needing DUP
support - which they were unlikely to provide given his past support for
their nemesis - the IRA.

James Harris

2017-11-29 20:23:04 UTC

Post by Yellow
On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 00:30:39 +0000, James Harris <james.harris.1

Give back the six counties?
omega

Well at least we could ask for the £1 billion bribe back from the DUP as they
would cease to exist themselves: could be the result of their closing down.

The £1bn doesn't go to the DUP.

You are right : and it wasn't a bribe either.

No, it /was/ a bribe

Didn't the court case on whether it was a bribe or not get thrown out on
the basis that it was silly?

Probably. It wasn't a bribe in the usual sense of an illegitimate secret
payment to a beneficiary.

--
James Harris

jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)

2017-11-27 13:52:27 UTC

Give back the six counties?
omega

Only six? The Irish Republic has far more than six counties it can
give back.

- -

" I don't even have the heart to tell him I've never infested
Arizona."
- Klaun Shittinb'ricks (1940 - ), acknowledging that he lied
from the very beginning, A jew scam, as expected

Iudaei orbem terrarum infestant.
- correct Latin

"Die Juden sind unser Unglück!"
- Heinrich von Treitschke (1834 - 1896)

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out
because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade
Unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Trade
Unionist. Then they came for the jews, and I did not speak out
because I did not give a shit. Then they came for me and there
wasn't a single commie bastard left to speak for me."
- Martin Niemöller (1892 - 1984)

Fformby-Smythe's Law of zionism:
"The importance of 'Israeel' to any given jew is directly proportional
to the square of the distance between that jew and 'Israeel'."

The Peeler

2017-11-27 21:32:55 UTC

Post by jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)

On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 05:52:27 -0800, serbian bitch Razovic, the resident
psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, making an ass
of herself as "jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry'

Post by Omega
Give back the six counties?
omega

Only six? The Irish Republic has far more than six counties it can
give back.

Are you sure, psychopath? Psychopathically sure? <BG>

--
Retarded, anal, subnormal and extremely proud of it: our resident
psychopath, dumb serbian bitch G. Razovic (aka "The Rectum").

Altroy1

2017-11-27 17:29:30 UTC

Not being a Brexiteer, I can't help you out.

I do recall during the 2016 referendum though, Daniel J Hannan and similar ilk
pooh-poohing the idea of a Border claiming that in the event of Brexit the CTA
would remain and all would be ultra hunky-dory. So maybe if he's reading this
newsgroup, he of such great intellect can explain it all.

Meanwhile, in the news: the unerlying nationalism behind Brexit - the sort of
nationalism Brexit people so despise when thinking about the Scots - reveals
itself. We are going to build a great big new wall (oops border) and Mexico (er
Ireland) is going to pay for it:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-northern-ireland-border-united-leave-eu-donald-trump-kate-hoey-republic-pay-customs-union-a8077626.html

A Labour MP has drawn comparisons with Donald Trump for claiming
the Republic of Ireland would have to pay for border
infrastructure after Brexit if the UK leaves without a deal.

Brexit-backing MP Kate Hoey, who grew up in Northern Ireland,
risked deepening the row over the Irish border question by
claiming that Dublin would have to foot the bill for customs posts
if Britain crashes out of the European Union without new trade
agreements.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-ukip-ireland-weak-subservient-northern-ireland-border-gerard-batten-leo-varadkar-a8077676.html

Britain should threaten the "weak" Republic of Ireland with new
border controls in order to get its way over Brexit, Ukip has
said.

Gerard Batten, the party Brexit spokesperson, said Ireland was "a
tiny country that relies on UK for its existence" and that it
amounted to "the weakest kid in the playground sucking up to the
EU bullies".

Ian Jackson

2017-11-27 20:03:14 UTC