Discussion:
New MN court affidavits by those defending non-Monotonic voting methods & IRV/STV
Kathy Dopp
2008-11-06 18:23:39 UTC
Permalink
FYI,

Defendants in the MN Case (who are promoting IRV and STV methods) have
just released new affidavits to the court that discuss Arrow's theorem
as supporting the case for IRV/STV and dismissing the importance of
IRV's nonmonotonicity.

I posted three of these most recent affidavits of the defendants of
Instant Runoff Voting and STV here:

http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/

The first two docs listed are by Fair Vote's new expert witness.

The third doc is by the Minneapolis, MN City attorney.

The defendants characterize Arrow's theorem as proving that "there
exists no unequivocally satisfactory, or normatively appealing, voting
rule." and claim the "possibility of nonmonotonic results plagues ALL
potential democratic voting systems with 3 or more candidates unless a
dictatorial voting rule is adopted."

I would appreciate it if any of you have time to read some of the
above three docs, particularly the third document by the attorney, and
give me your responses.

FYI, the plaintiff's characterizes Arrow's theorem on p. 3 of this doc:

http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/11SuplementaryReplyMemoinSupportofMotionforSummaryJudgment.pdf

Thank you.

Kathy



--

Kathy Dopp

The material expressed herein is the informed product of the author's
fact-finding and investigative efforts. Dopp is a Mathematician,
Expert in election audit mathematics and procedures; in exit poll
discrepancy analysis; and can be reached at

P.O. Box 680192
Park City, UT 84068
phone 435-658-4657

http://utahcountvotes.org
http://electionmathematics.org
http://electionarchive.org
http://kathydopp.com/serendipity/

How to Audit Election Outcome Accuracy
http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/paper-audits/VoteCountAuditBillRequest.pdf

History of Confidence Election Auditing Development & Overview of
Election Auditing Fundamentals
http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/paper-audits/History-of-Election-Auditing-Development.pdf

Voters Have Reason to Worry
http://utahcountvotes.org/UT/UtahCountVotes-ThadHall-Response.pdf
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Greg
2008-11-06 21:51:31 UTC
Permalink
Those documents make a good case. If you rule IRV/STV unconstitutional
due to non-monotonicity, you have to be prepared to rule open
primaries and top-two primaries unconstitutional as well.

Note also that other arguments by the "MN Voter's Alliance" would, if
successful, would render *any* voting method that involves putting
marks next to multiple candidates -- IRV, Bucklin, Approval,
Condorcet, Range -- by its nature unconstitutional.

They are also arguing that, because IRV satisfies Condorcet Loser and
therefore requires the winner to show *some* majority over another
candidate, that it could therefore lead to "tyranny" of the majority.
They are specifically arguing against the whole idea of majority rule
in a single-winner election.

These people are throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.
The fact that you've made allies with them is telling.


> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:23:39 -0700
> From: "Kathy Dopp" <***@gmail.com>
> Subject: [EM] New MN court affidavits by those defending non-Monotonic
> voting methods & IRV/STV
> To: EM <election-***@lists.electorama.com>
>
> FYI,
>
> Defendants in the MN Case (who are promoting IRV and STV methods) have
> just released new affidavits to the court that discuss Arrow's theorem
> as supporting the case for IRV/STV and dismissing the importance of
> IRV's nonmonotonicity.
>
> I posted three of these most recent affidavits of the defendants of
> Instant Runoff Voting and STV here:
>
> http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/
>
> The first two docs listed are by Fair Vote's new expert witness.
>
> The third doc is by the Minneapolis, MN City attorney.
>
> The defendants characterize Arrow's theorem as proving that "there
> exists no unequivocally satisfactory, or normatively appealing, voting
> rule." and claim the "possibility of nonmonotonic results plagues ALL
> potential democratic voting systems with 3 or more candidates unless a
> dictatorial voting rule is adopted."
>
> I would appreciate it if any of you have time to read some of the
> above three docs, particularly the third document by the attorney, and
> give me your responses.
>
> FYI, the plaintiff's characterizes Arrow's theorem on p. 3 of this doc:
>
> http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/11SuplementaryReplyMemoinSupportofMotionforSummaryJudgment.pdf
>
> Thank you.
>
> Kathy
>
>
>
> --
>
> Kathy Dopp
>
> The material expressed herein is the informed product of the author's
> fact-finding and investigative efforts. Dopp is a Mathematician,
> Expert in election audit mathematics and procedures; in exit poll
> discrepancy analysis; and can be reached at
>
> P.O. Box 680192
> Park City, UT 84068
> phone 435-658-4657
>
> http://utahcountvotes.org
> http://electionmathematics.org
> http://electionarchive.org
> http://kathydopp.com/serendipity/
>
> How to Audit Election Outcome Accuracy
> http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/paper-audits/VoteCountAuditBillRequest.pdf
>
> History of Confidence Election Auditing Development & Overview of
> Election Auditing Fundamentals
> http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/paper-audits/History-of-Election-Auditing-Development.pdf
>
> Voters Have Reason to Worry
> http://utahcountvotes.org/UT/UtahCountVotes-ThadHall-Response.pdf
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Kathy Dopp
2008-11-06 22:29:59 UTC
Permalink
> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 16:51:31 -0500
> From: Greg <***@somervilleirv.org>

> Those documents make a good case. If you rule IRV/STV unconstitutional
> due to non-monotonicity, you have to be prepared to rule open
> primaries and top-two primaries unconstitutional as well.

Your statement above is provably false Greg since plurality voting in
both primary and general elections is very simply mathematically
provably monotonic.

>
> Note also that other arguments by the "MN Voter's Alliance" would, if
> successful, would render *any* voting method that involves putting
> marks next to multiple candidates -- IRV, Bucklin, Approval,
> Condorcet, Range -- by its nature unconstitutional.

Really?!* What arguments are those? I missed that.

>
> They are also arguing that, because IRV satisfies Condorcet Loser and
> therefore requires the winner to show *some* majority over another
> candidate, that it could therefore lead to "tyranny" of the majority.

Who is "they"? And where did "they" argue what you claim in your above sentence?

How do you define "*some* majority". Never seen a precise definition of that.


> They are specifically arguing against the whole idea of majority rule
> in a single-winner election.

Who is "they"? Do you mean that IRV proponents are arguing against
the idea of majority rule because IRV finds majority winners less
often than runoff elections or primary/general elections?

>
> These people are throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.
> The fact that you've made allies with them is telling.

Oh, OK. I now see why your statements above contradict facts. I'm
always surprised at how emotionally attached and impervious to facts
some folks are to IRV as a voting method.

Kathy
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Stéphane Rouillon
2008-11-07 04:03:13 UTC
Permalink
Again Kathy, it depends how you define monotonicity.

With FPTP, you can easily let your third choice win by voting for your first
choice
while you could have got your second choice elected by voting for him.
But as you only want to consider monotonicity in regard to your first
choice, you argue that FPTP is monotonic, which is right using that
definition.

Stephane Rouillon

>From: "Kathy Dopp" <***@gmail.com>
>Reply-To: ***@gmail.com
>To: election-***@lists.electorama.com
>Subject: Re: [EM] New MN court affidavits by those defending
>non-Monotonicvoting methods & IRV/STV
>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 15:29:59 -0700
>
> > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 16:51:31 -0500
> > From: Greg <***@somervilleirv.org>
>
> > Those documents make a good case. If you rule IRV/STV unconstitutional
> > due to non-monotonicity, you have to be prepared to rule open
> > primaries and top-two primaries unconstitutional as well.
>
>Your statement above is provably false Greg since plurality voting in
>both primary and general elections is very simply mathematically
>provably monotonic.


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Kathy Dopp
2008-11-07 04:26:06 UTC
Permalink
Stephane,

You are confusing the spoiler effect with monotonicity.

Plurality voting is ALWAYS monotonic.

Neither IRV or plurality solve the spoiler problem.

Both are susceptible to strategizing. I don't know any voting method
that is not.

Does anyone have anything helpful to add?

Kathy

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 9:03 PM, Stéphane Rouillon
<***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Again Kathy, it depends how you define monotonicity.
>
> With FPTP, you can easily let your third choice win by voting for your first
> choice
> while you could have got your second choice elected by voting for him.
> But as you only want to consider monotonicity in regard to your first
> choice, you argue that FPTP is monotonic, which is right using that
> definition.
>
> Stephane Rouillon
>
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Jonathan Lundell
2008-11-07 04:28:37 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 6, 2008, at 8:26 PM, Kathy Dopp wrote:

> Both are susceptible to strategizing. I don't know any voting method
> that is not.

Random Dictator.
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Stéphane Rouillon
2008-11-07 05:49:42 UTC
Permalink
The spoiler effect is a special case of non-monotonicity.

A general definition of a monotonic method is:
no voter or group of voter could harm a candidate by expressing its full
preference toward any higher preferred candidate.

While you restrict monotonicity definition to:
no voter or group of voter could harm its favourite by expressing its full
preference.

It is your choice. You chose to disregard the fact that winners, while the
voter expresses or not its full preferences, could both not be the favourite
of the voters.

I do not understand why you want to consider the spoiler effect as a
different problem. As soon any voter would learn that its first choice has
no chance of winning, its second choice would become its new first choice,
the spoiler effect leading again to your personal definition of the
monotonic dilemma...

Historically we gave it another name, but it is still a perticular case of
the same problem...

Sorry i am not impressed enough by your defense to use any capital letter
word....

Stéph.
PS: I do understand there are problems auditing preferential ballot systems.
However I am still convinced STV or STV-PR is the best system among those
actually used in the world. Why not stick to paper ballot with STV? I think
it would remove the auditing problems you hate. Irish people have been using
this system since 1929, no computers existing at the time. Even with an
explosion of candidates, it can be done using a pen, without centralizing
all the data, with simply enough communications between the election center
and the poll stations... All you need is to make sure that the election
result is the good one. Instead with computers you have to make sure that
the result for any election is the right one: a very complex job indeed...

>From: "Kathy Dopp" <***@gmail.com>
>Reply-To: ***@gmail.com
>To: "Stéphane Rouillon" <***@sympatico.ca>
>CC: election-***@lists.electorama.com
>Subject: Re: [EM] New MN court affidavits by those defending
>non-Monotonicvoting methods
>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:26:06 -0700
>
>Stephane,
>
>You are confusing the spoiler effect with monotonicity.
>
>Plurality voting is ALWAYS monotonic.
>
>Neither IRV or plurality solve the spoiler problem.
>
>Both are susceptible to strategizing. I don't know any voting method
>that is not.
>
>Does anyone have anything helpful to add?
>
>Kathy
>
>On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 9:03 PM, Stéphane Rouillon
><***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > Again Kathy, it depends how you define monotonicity.
> >
> > With FPTP, you can easily let your third choice win by voting for your
>first
> > choice
> > while you could have got your second choice elected by voting for him.
> > But as you only want to consider monotonicity in regard to your first
> > choice, you argue that FPTP is monotonic, which is right using that
> > definition.
> >
> > Stephane Rouillon
> >


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Kathy Dopp
2008-11-07 06:43:28 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 10:49 PM, Stéphane Rouillon
<***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> The spoiler effect is a special case of non-monotonicity.
>
> A general definition of a monotonic method is:
> no voter or group of voter could harm a candidate by expressing its full
> preference toward any higher preferred candidate.

No, not even close. That definition you are giving is not met by any
voting system I know of. Can anyone think of one?

> While you restrict monotonicity definition to:
> no voter or group of voter could harm its favourite by expressing its full
> preference.

Not even close. I simply use the mathematical definition of monotonic
functions. Look it up. It's very simple.

>
> It is your choice. You chose to disregard the fact that winners, while the
> voter expresses or not its full preferences, could both not be the favourite
> of the voters.

I love the way you keep referring to voters as "its". It says
something about the way you view voters.

Huh? Your sentence above makes no sense to me. You want to try
restating it more precisely?

>
> I do not understand why you want to consider the spoiler effect as a
> different problem.

Because it IS. Because Arrow and every other expert recognizes it as a
different problem than monotonicity. Because mathematically it is a
different problem, etc.

> As soon any voter would learn that its first choice has

These voter "its" again...

> no chance of winning, its second choice would become its new first choice,
> the spoiler effect leading again to your personal definition of the
> monotonic dilemma...

Huh*!?

My personal definition? You mean the personal definition that ALL
mathematicians use? What do you think I'm so all-powerful that before
I was born I went back in time and forced all mathematicians to adopt
a definition for "monontonicity"?

OK I can see I'm wasting my time here.

If anyone wants to send me anything intelligent on this topic, please
email me personally, off-list.

Thanks.

Kathy
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Stéphane Rouillon
2008-11-07 14:45:25 UTC
Permalink
>From: "Kathy Dopp" <***@gmail.com>
>Reply-To: ***@gmail.com
>To: "Stéphane Rouillon" <***@sympatico.ca>
>CC: election-***@lists.electorama.com
>Subject: Re: [EM] New MN court affidavits by those defending
>non-Monotonicvoting methods
>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 23:43:28 -0700
>
>On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 10:49 PM, Stéphane Rouillon
><***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > The spoiler effect is a special case of non-monotonicity.
> >
> > A general definition of a monotonic method is:
> > no voter or group of voter could harm a candidate by expressing its full
> > preference toward any higher preferred candidate.
>
>No, not even close. That definition you are giving is not met by any
>voting system I know of. Can anyone think of one?

Exactly, no electoral system can garantee coherence between the order of
preferences of a voter
and the impact the participation of that voter has on the result.

>
> > While you restrict monotonicity definition to:
> > no voter or group of voter could harm its favourite by expressing its
>full
> > preference.
>
>Not even close. I simply use the mathematical definition of monotonic
>functions. Look it up. It's very simple.

It is not so simple and you know it. For a monotonic function:
if pref (a) > pref (b) then result (a) > result (b)

For an election method a and b are not simple values but cover all
instanciations of every other ballots case. Because some of these
instanciations represent a collective incoherent will (containing a cycle),
generic monotonicity cannot be inferred for all cases.

>
> >
> > It is your choice. You chose to disregard the fact that winners, while
>the
> > voter expresses or not its full preferences, could both not be the
>favourite
> > of the voters.
>
>I love the way you keep referring to voters as "its". It says
>something about the way you view voters.

It says my mother tongue is french and I try not to discriminate between his
or her.

>
>Huh? Your sentence above makes no sense to me. You want to try
>restating it more precisely?

If, by voting or not for your favourite C, you could get either A or B
elected, I say the method is not
monotonic according to the general definition I use. Voting or not for C
should have no impact on the result between A and B.

>
> >
> > I do not understand why you want to consider the spoiler effect as a
> > different problem.
>
>Because it IS. Because Arrow and every other expert recognizes it as a
>different problem than monotonicity. Because mathematically it is a
>different problem, etc.
>
> > As soon any voter would learn that its first choice has
>
>These voter "its" again...
>
> > no chance of winning, its second choice would become its new first
>choice,
> > the spoiler effect leading again to your personal definition of the
> > monotonic dilemma...
>
>Huh*!?
>
>My personal definition? You mean the personal definition that ALL
>mathematicians use? What do you think I'm so all-powerful that before
>I was born I went back in time and forced all mathematicians to adopt
>a definition for "monontonicity"?
>
>OK I can see I'm wasting my time here.
>
>If anyone wants to send me anything intelligent on this topic, please
>email me personally, off-list.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Kathy

If you can't even recognize there is many definition to mononicity, you are
definitively wasting your time doing psephology. Search for mono-add-plump
or mono-add-top for example. By personal, I meant the one among these you
use. As you cannot provide one by yourself I had to. If as you say:
"I simply use the mathematical definition of monotonic functions. Look it
up. It's very simple."
Why not copy these simple lines?

As about intelligence, I suppose it is like beauty and disrespect, it's all
in the eye of the beholder...

Finally I remark you did not comment on auditing paper versions of STV.
Please do so on-list if you have good arguments, or off-list if you want
preventing this discussion to harm your legal case.

I hope it helped you prepare for your affidavits.

Stéphane Rouillon, ing. M.Sc.A. Ph.D.(in mathematics)
PS: Being a mathematician is not sufficient to always be logical, neither
right all the time.


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Kathy Dopp
2008-11-07 18:35:02 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 7:45 AM, Stéphane Rouillon

> Exactly, no electoral system can garantee coherence between the order of
> preferences of a voter
> and the impact the participation of that voter has on the result.

Yea Right! The vote counting method that is employed cannot guarantee
the coherence of "the impact the participation of that voter has on
the result".

What alternate reality are we living in today?

Kathy
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Stéphane Rouillon
2008-11-07 19:50:20 UTC
Permalink
Let us try a language you understand:

- more voters prefer B to C

- a fraction of those voters will vote for A because they even prefer A to
other candidates

- thus C can get elected because of vote-splitting between A and B

Even if more voters prefer B to C, the result is that C wins over B. This is
clearly non-monotonic.
This is a typical vote-splitting case using FPTP.

Now do you understand in what reality we live today?
I do. This is why I consider alternatives.

Yours, Stéph.

>From: "Kathy Dopp" <***@gmail.com>
>Reply-To: ***@gmail.com
>To: "Stéphane Rouillon" <***@sympatico.ca>
>CC: election-***@lists.electorama.com
>Subject: Re: [EM] New MN court affidavits by those
>defendingnon-Monotonicvoting methods
>Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 11:35:02 -0700
>
>On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 7:45 AM, Stéphane Rouillon
>
> > Exactly, no electoral system can garantee coherence between the order of
> > preferences of a voter
> > and the impact the participation of that voter has on the result.
>
>Yea Right! The vote counting method that is employed cannot guarantee
>the coherence of "the impact the participation of that voter has on
>the result".
>
>What alternate reality are we living in today?
>
>Kathy
>----
>Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info


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Kathy Dopp
2008-11-07 21:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for providing another case to show how plurality voting does
not solve the spoiler effect. Neither does IRV. This has zip to do
with monotonicity.

Look up all the definitions again.

Kathy

On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Stéphane Rouillon
<***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Let us try a language you understand:
>
> - more voters prefer B to C
>
> - a fraction of those voters will vote for A because they even prefer A to
> other candidates
>
> - thus C can get elected because of vote-splitting between A and B
>
> Even if more voters prefer B to C, the result is that C wins over B. This is
> clearly non-monotonic.
> This is a typical vote-splitting case using FPTP.
>
> Now do you understand in what reality we live today?
> I do. This is why I consider alternatives.
>
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Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
2008-11-10 03:32:01 UTC
Permalink
This is an examination and comment on the document filed in the case of

Minnesota Voters Alliance, et al, vs. The City of Minneapolis

being the

Plaintiffs Memorandum of Law in Support of their
Motion for Summary Judgment and Declaratory Judgment

At the outset it must be stated that Minnesota
precedent is actually quite clear. Brown v.
Smallwood established that any form of
alternative vote, where, in a single election (as
distinct from, say, a primary election followed
by a runoff or general election), voters cast
more than one vote, making a choice of more than
one candidate, where it is one candidate to be
elected, regardless of details as to how the
votes are counted, is contrary to the State
Constitution (as interpreted by the State Supreme
Court). This decision has never been overturned.

While Brown v. Smallwood was, and is,
questionable, it is precedent in Minnesota, and
it is perfectly proper for the plaintiffs to
request summary judgment on this issue. Given the
clarity of Brown v. Smallwood on the topic, I
would expect it to be quite possible that a lower
court would issue summary judgment in favor of
the plaintiffs; which would then, presumably, be
appealed (eventually) to the Minnesota Supreme Court.

The reasoning in Brown v. Smallwood applied
equally to Bucklin voting (then called
preferential voting, a name also in common use
for Instant Runoff Voting) and to IRV. There is
one statement in Brown v. Smallwood where mention
is made of what is now called "Later no harm," an
election method characteristic that IRV satisfies
and Bucklin voting does not. However, other
arguments presented, and the response of the
court to an appeal for reconsideration by the
City of Duluth, make it clear that the court was
concerned with all forms of alternative vote,
anything other than a simple single choice by the voter.

My purpose here is to examine the arguments in the Memorandum.

The plaintiffs begin with a summary of the issues presented.

>The Minnesota and United States Constitutions
>establishes [sic] a person's right to vote and
>to associate – one vote represents the intent to
>elect one specific person to office. A city's
>general election methodology allows ranking of
>candidates, vote transfers, and fractionalizing
>votes to obtain a preferential majority to
>declare a candidate elected to office. Do
>transfers and fractionalizing of votes violate a
>person's constitutional right to vote and to
>associate with one candidate for an elected office?

The first sentence introduces this "right to
associate," though that right, as normally
interpreted, has nothing to do with voting. If we
were dealing with the "right to associate," that
right presumably allows us to associate with more
than one person. The court in Brown v. Smallwood
did not mention, as far as I've noticed, a "right
to associate," this is a spurious invention of the plaintiff.

Brown v. Smallwood did not address
fractionalizing of votes, which is a technique
used in Single Transferable Vote to make vote
transfers more equitable, for the purpose of
creating proportional representation. Extending
Brown v. Smallwood to multiwinner elections is a
more complex issue than its simple application to
single-winner elections. Unstated in the
plaintiff's memorandum is the fact that, when
votes are "fractionalized," the result is that no
more than one full vote of the voter has been
used to elect any winner. However, it is correct
that this process results in the voter not
knowing what single candidate was elected with
the assistance their vote, because there may be
more than one. It is possible, though, to remedy
this with a procedural detail and an allowance of
some degree of approximation. I.e., each voter
would know whom, specifically, their vote
elected, because transfers would be assigned and
referred to voting precincts. All this complexity
I will set aside as something quite unclear under
Minnesota law, being possibly imagined as
conflicting with the spirit of Brown v.
Smallwood, but not explicitly considered by that
decision, which dealt only with single-winner
methods. (Though they mention cumulative voting
in the decision, they were making a different point.)

The real issue here is vote transfers, and the
possibility of contingent votes cast by voters.
Brown v. Smallwood was quite explicit on this. In
response to a petition from the City of Duluth
for rehearing, and on review, they held that

>The decision is sound; and we do right in
>upholding the right of the citizen to cast a
>vote for the candidate of his choice unimpaired
>by second or additional choice votes cast by other voters.

FairVote, in its promotion of IRV in Minnesota,
has claimed that Brown v. Smallwood was concerned
about a different issue, based on this comment made in the original decision:

The preferential system directly diminishes the
right of an elector to give an effective vote for
the candidate of his choice. If he votes for him
once, his power to help him is exhausted. If he
votes for other candidates, he may harm his choice, but cannot help him.

FairVote claims that this is a reference to the
fact that, in Bucklin voting, if you add a second
preference vote for a different candidate, that
vote might result in the different candidate
being elected, where, otherwise, it would have
been a tie, or it might, the same, create a tie,
thus harming the favorite candidate. This is
theoretically possible with Bucklin voting, but
Single Transferable Vote avoids this by only
considering lower preference votes once
more-preferred candidates have been eliminated
from consideration. Thus, it might seem, the
lower-preference votes, if any, cannot harm the
more preferred candidate. Had this been the
primary concern of the court, it would have been
a telling argument. But it was not. The court
went on to say, in the same paragraph:

>Another elector may vote for three candidates
>opposed to him. The mathematical possibilities
>of the application of the system are infinite.

This, then, read together with other language in
the decision, and especially the reasoning
expressed in the court's response to the request
for rehearing, shows that it is the multiple
votes that were of concern to the court.

There was a cogent dissent expressed, by J.
Hallam, in Brown v. Smallwood, and it seems clear
from the rehearing response that there was
substantial disagreement with this decision among
legal experts of the time. The court goes so far
as to note that the petitions for rehearing
claimed that the court went wrong on a plain
proposition involving no difficulty, or, to put
it in the language of one of the petitions, "If
one will put the proposition up to good lawyers …
who have examined into the question, five out of
six will say that the statute does not violate
the constitution." Clearly, the decision was
unpopular, the court effectively acknowledges (and explicitly disregards) that.

Even though the plaintiff in the present case
argues on the basis of the U.S. Constitution,
preferential voting, per se, has been found
constitutional by nearly all courts. (One variant
on Bucklin, in Oklahoma, was found
unconstitutional in that state on the basis of
its use of fractional votes. However, this was
quite different from the fractional votes in STV,
which actually add to the effective voting power
of the voter whose vote is divided, which the
effect in Oklahoma was to reduce voting power.

(Perhaps this should be explained. In Duluth
Bucklin, first preference votes were tallied, and
if any candidate gained a majority, that
candidate was elected. Otherwise, second
preference votes were counted and added to the
first preference totals. Note that this only
allows one vote per candidate to be cast. Again,
if a majority of ballots (not votes!) were found
to contain a vote for a candidate, the candidate
was elected. And so on for third preference.
(With first and second preference, voters were
only allowed to vote for one candidate, but with
third preference, they could vote for as many as
they wished; i.e., they could effectively vote
against a candidate by voting for everyone else.
The effect of that, though, would be to abstain
from all other pairwise elections.) In Oklahoma,
perhaps assuming that lower preference
represented some lower approval of a candidate,
fractional values were assigned to the votes.
This has the effect, though, of penalizing the
voter for voting first preference for a candidate not likely to win.)

(Sometimes it is asserted that Bucklin voting,
like Approval, allows the voter more than one
vote. However, just as with Instant Runoff
Voting, only one vote, in the end, is effective,
at most. All other votes are contingent, and
moot, they could be struck from the ballots with
no change to the result. The Minnesota court, in
its reasoning does consider the difference
between a single voter and single vote,
represented by a single ballot, and the number of
marks on the ballot, yet, in one of the more
frustrating aspects of the decision, proceeds to
contradict its own reasoning by being concerned
that the number of marks on the Bucklin ballots
exceeded the number of voters. What matters, one
would have thought, is the number of voters
expressing support for a candidate for election;
when this passes a majority, majority rule has
been satisfied, and all other marks, used in the
process of finding that majority, are moot.
Instant Runoff Voting, though, differs from
Bucklin in a very important way: when Bucklin
fails to find a majority, it has considered every
vote cast, not just some of the votes. IRV will
terminate the process and declare a winner even
though a majority has not been found and not all
the votes have been examined, if the votes
remaining from unexhausted ballots have reached a
majority, not of all valid ballots cast, but of
only that reduced set of ballots. Because Bucklin
does not eliminate candidates, until the very
end, it is more likely to find a compromise
winner, one more broadly acceptable, instead of
merely the one with the most first-preference
votes, like Plurality, or what amounts to almost
the same, like IRV. Nevertheless, both methods,
in most election situations, will perform about
the same. IRV starts to have real trouble when
there are three viable candidates; but that's a
rare scenario. Bucklin probably continues to
perform adequately. What is truly relevant here is this:

Bucklin, like IRV, in the end has discarded,
effectively removed from consideration, all votes
not cast for the winner. This is absolutely true
if a true majority is required to win. (A
majority voting for a candidate is a majority
even if all other ballots, not containing a vote
for that candidate, were blank or contained
irrelevant votes, but still were counted as part
of the basis for majority.) The argument that
Bucklin violates one-person, one-vote, is based
on a shallow analysis concerned with the number
of marks, not the number of voters supporting the
winner (vs. those supporting other candidates).
The Minnesota court made the argument, actually,
then missed the implications and failed to apply it.

The dissenting opinion in Brown v. Smallwood
should be carefully read. It covers nearly every important argument.

To summarize my response to the plaintiff's
summary of the issue. Yes, if Brown v. Smallwood
continues to be upheld, vote transfers violate
the Minnesota State Constitution. However, Brown
v. Smallwood was defectively reasoned by that
court, and should be reconsidered, not merely
reinterpreted to allow Instant Runoff Voting,
because of a peculiarity of that method,
considered a defect by some experts, while
continuing to prohibit better methods, such as
the system of voting that was being used in
Duluth, or other methods under consideration by
voting reformers or in use in various contexts.

Returning to the issues raised by the plaintiffs:

>II. Under an election system, a formulation to
>redistribute surplus votes or second-ranked
>votes can divide a single vote into fractions
>among other candidates. Also a ballot is
>exhausted – uncounted – when an elector does not
>choose the next-ranked candidate although [the
>elector] may have ranked subsequent candidates
>on the same ballot. Is the equal protection
>clause violated when one vote is fractioned, and
>ballots not counted, resulting in a vote's
>dilution because of that election system?

Again, there are two issues here. The first is
the use of fractional votes in surplus transfers.
The second is the issue of a procedural detail,
not relevant under some election rules, the
handling of empty ranks when there are votes
present at a lower rank. The second issue is thus
a detail of less importance. If it's a problem,
it could be fixed. Treat blank votes as if they
were for an eliminated candidate. I've always
wondered why this wasn't being done in San Francisco.

So the issue of substance in this second issue is
the use of fractional votes. It's not clear that
the plaintiff understands this. Such fractional
votes never represent a dilution of the voter's
power, they, rather, represent a restoration of
it. Fractional vote transfers were used to
rectify an obvious inequity in proportional representation systems.

Consider a situation where three candidates are
to be elected to office. One candidate is very
popular, and let's say that two-thirds of voters
have voted for this candidate. However, the quota
for election, called the Droop quota, is not more
than one vote greater than one-fourth of the
number of valid ballots containing votes. (Why
isn't it one-third? Well, it's complicated; and
it is debated, but if we want to elect the
most-preferred candidates, if all elected
candidates are preferred by the Droop quota or
more, then there are insufficient votes remaining
to elect any more candidates. If the quota for
election is one-third, then any exhausted ballots
will result in insufficient votes to elect the
third candidate. Systems that do not result in
exhausted ballots can use the Hare quota,
assuming proper details.) What do we do with all
those "surplus votes"”? Do we neglect them, thus
allowing the remaining one-third of the voters to
elect the other two representatives? This would
give two-thirds of votes in a resulting assembly
to candidates preferred by one-third of the
voters! Since we have only been looking at the
first choices of those who voted for the first
candidate elected, the most popular, clearly we
should, in order not to dilute those votes, look at the second preferences.

There are two basic ways that it is done.
Sometimes, in the counting, when a quota has been
found, the ballots used to find that quota are
then set aside and counted no further. Then the
candidate is considered as if eliminated, i.e.,
the next lower preference is counted. In each
case, one ballot is increasing the total for one
candidate by one vote. However, there is a
problem with this: who your vote counts for
depends on what sequence in which your vote is
counted. This is considered a problem (how real
the problem is may depend on unpredictable
details of the exact election environment), so
the division of votes was invented. If, say, the
quota is one-fourth of the votes, and one-half of
the voters have voted for a candidate, then all
of the second preference votes are counted, but
they are "fractioned," in this case multiplied by
one-half. You got your favorite elected, and
one-half of your vote was used for that, leaving
one-half to be assigned to your second
preference, etc. This keeps, within roundoff
error, one full vote active until it has either
been distributed to create winners or it has been exhausted.

Is this complicated? Yes. Is it fair? Well, up to
the election of the last candidate, yes, it is
clearly fair. With the last candidate, the
election effectively becomes the same as an
instant runoff voting election, with the problems
associated with that. In summary, fractioning the
votes, as is done with multiwinner STV, does not
dilute them in the sense of weakening them;
rather, it maintains their potency. Votes are
only fractioned after having been partly used to elect a winner.

However, if Brown v. Smallwood is allowed to
stand, the court would be consistent if it were
suspicious of any form of Single Transferable
Vote, no matter how fair it is. The court in
Brown v. Smallwood explicitly rejected arguments
based on election method performance or value:
their answer to these was, essentially, "Fine!. Change the constitution!"

The third issue raised by the plaintiffs is with
regard to the right of municipalities to create
"election systems affecting general elections."
There was a similar issue, I think, with Brown v.
Smallwood, but the present issue would have to do
with details regarding the 1983 statute or other
relevant statutes. It's not an issue that I feel
a need to address. My understanding has been,
though, that Minneapolis was within its rights to
implement a voting system if that system did not violate the constitution.

Reading further in the Memorandum, I find plenty
of irrelevant argument. The core, though, relies
entirely on Brown v. Smallwood or similar
reasoning, as it should. (Only Brown v. Smallwood
makes this issue clear enough, on the face, to
justify a motion for summary judgment.)

However, instead of simply quoting Brown v.
Smallwood and showing its application to Instant
Runoff Voting, they dilute their argument by
rearguing Brown v. Smallwood, which might be an
unskillful move. It invites re-examination of
that case, and it's my opinion that a careful
re-examination will result in its reversal. And
the arguments they give, at least some of them,
are novel, and defective. Consider this,
examining fractional vote transfers in STV:

>Furthermore, in multiseat elections, the single
>transferable vote scheme reflects the likelihood
>of a diminished and vanished right to political
>association and right to vote when surplus votes
>and transferred votes result in fractions of a
>vote between two opposing candidates. An
>elector's intent to politically associate with a
>candidate cannot be realized if his one vote is
>divided between two candidates with opposing political beliefs.
>
> From this example, an elector does not know the
> destiny of his vote, and will not realize his
> intent for political association. The fraction
> of ".5" split between the Democrat and the
> Independent cannot reflect the political intent
> of an elector since it cannot be associated
> with two ideologies likely diametrically opposed to each other.

First of all, this concept of "political
association" is entirely invented by the
plaintiffs or the plaintiff's counsel.
“Ideologies” are constitutionally irrelevant.
And, worst of all, if there are "ideologically"
incompatible votes, it is because voters vote for
candidates, not ideologies. The idea that the
vote, voluntarily cast by the voter, under no
coercion, "cannot reflect the political intent"
of the elector, is preposterous. It is a direct
expression of that political intent. This is
seriously poor reasoning, period, not to mention seriously poor legal argument.

I will examine the vote transfer chart that they
present at the end of this document.

In another legal gaffe, the memorandum proceeds
to rely upon Bush v. Gore as a precedent, when
the Supreme Court, in a flash of candor, stated
that Bush v. Gore was not to be considered a
precedent, but was based on unique circumstances (as I recall).

This argument could be, possibly, quite
inexpedient politically, and, yes, Virginia,
politics has an effect on legal decisions. Bush
v. Gore was highly unpopular with most legal
experts, and raising it as a precedent is waving
a big red flag that says, "Watch out for spurious arguments."

The memorandum then considers the legality of
Minneapolis adopting its own election method,
and, in particular, the STV method. I have paid
less attention to this argument; however, one
part of it stood out to me. The plaintiffs claim
irreconcilable conflict with state election law
regarding election contests over "who received
the largest number of votes legally cast." They
conflate this with "first preference votes,"
assuming that all other votes wouldn't be a part
of that number. This is, thus, the same issue;
the conflict arises only if vote transfers are
not "votes legally cast." Suppose that the voting
method was simple Approval voting. Vote for any
candidate you care to support. I.e., you may vote
for more than one, but never, of course, may you
cast more than one vote for any particular
candidate. With such a system, there is a clear
definition of which candidate received "the
largest number of votes legally cast." This was
the candidate whom the largest number of voters
chose to support. If we consider alternative
votes as being similar, as expressions of
support, but used only if one's first preference
is eliminated, we still end up with the winner
being the one whom the largest number of voters
chose to support, whether through first preference votes or alternative votes.

Now, there is a problem with sequential
elimination, in that it doesn't treat all
lower-preference votes equally. Specifically, it
does not count them until the voter's first
preference has been eliminated. This can cause a
candidate to lose who would clearly win in a
direct contest with the IRV winner, because the
votes for that candidate were not "uncovered"
until the candidate was eliminated –- and these
votes are never even counted, typically. However,
this is a complex issue, and for this to be the
basis of a constitutional challenge would require
far greater legal skill than is being exhibited.

Now, about the STV vote chart they provide. At
the start, I will explain the Droop quota used.
It's probably easiest to understand that quota,
why it is V/(N+1) + 1, rounded down, V being the
number of valid ballots cast and N being the
number of candidates to be elected, by
considering first the case where N = 1. V/2 + 1,
rounded down, is a simple majority. That is, it
is the lowest number of votes that is more than
half. With two candidates, the quota is the
lowest number of votes that is more than a third.
And so forth. It seems complicated, but it's actually pretty simple.

Then, when a candidate is elected, the candidate
usually has more than the quota of votes. If we
subtract the votes used from the votes needed to
meet the quota, then we have unused votes,
"surplus votes." So that this group of people is
fairly represented according to the proportion of
this group in the electorate, these votes are
reassigned according to the lower preferences on
the ballots. If these voters all voted
consistently, it would not be necessary to use
fractional transfers, for, quite simply, the
excess votes would go to a single candidate. Thus
a group that was a vote more than half the
electorate would get two winners if three are
being elected. (If this seems unfair, then we
should really look at deeper systems of
proportional representation that involve electing
more than three candidates! It's better than the
standard plurality at-large system that would
give all the winners to a majority of voters.) In
fact, however, voters are not robots, voting
consistently with each other. So what is done is
to consider that these voters have had a portion
of their vote used to elect their favorite (if
these were all first preference votes), and then
they individually cast their second preference votes at a reduced value.

The plaintiffs consider a two-seat election, with
four candidates and 10,000 voters. The candidates
are a Republican, a Democrat, and Independent,
and a Green, and the first preference totals are
4000, 3000, 2000, 1000. This is an example, it
seems, that they created. It's not a realistic one.

They definitely did not create and describe the
example in order to make the STV system clear.
Indeed, it may have been part of their desire to
make it seem as complicated as possible.

Be that as it may, or not, the quota with 10000
votes and 3 seats is 3334. The Republican is
first elected, using up this number of votes, out
of 4000 total, leaving 666 votes unallocated.
Each voter is then assigned 666/4000 vote to be
assigned to that voter's next preference. They
don't explain this part, they just do the math,
it seems that they don't realize that it is the
voters who are controlling the vote transfers,
through their ballot choices. To make the
expression maximally unclear, they do the math
backwards, first calculating and expressing, as a
decimal, the fraction (4000 – 3334)/4000, i.e.,
16.65%, and then multiplying it by 4000 to get … 666.

They don't state it very clearly, but apparently
the Republican voters voted second rank as 3000
for the Independent , 1000 for the Green, and
none for Democrat. While that's thoroughly
unrealistic, I can accept it just as an example. So the transfers are

To the Independent, 0.1665 x 3000 = 499.5 votes
To the Green, 0.1665 x 1000 = 166.5 votes.

They seem quite disturbed by the 0.5 vote
fractional parts, as if there is some voter who
has half their vote going to the Independent and
half to the Green. That's not at all what is
happening. What is happening is that each voter
is casting, through their second preference,
0.1665 vote. Which happens to come out to totals
with exact half-votes in them. It could be any
number; the method described in the Minneapolis
procedure calculates the surplus ratio to four decimal places.

The way they state it is, "The transferred vote
in this example fractionalizes one vote into
one-half for two candidates, the Green and the
Independent." Which is quite incorrect. What has
happened is that 3000 votes for the Independent
have been reduced in weight to 499.5 votes, due
to those voters having already elected a
preferred candidate with most of their vote, and
likewise 1000 votes for the Green are fractioned
to 166.5 votes. There is no "vote" which was split in two.

At this point, no other candidate has reached the
quota, so vote transfer due to elimination
begins. The Green is eliminated. The Green votes,
1000 votes, will be transferred to the second
preference expressed on the Green ballots, and
the third preferences of the Republicans who
voted for the Green as second preference will
likewise be transferred. They lump these together, increasing the confusion.

They don't provide the ballot data, just totals,
which they do not explain. Of the 1166.5 votes
held by the Green before elimination, they assign
166.5 to the Democrat and 1000 to the
Independent. This is exceedingly odd. 166.5 is
the number of votes transferred from the
Republican voters to the Green as second choice.
It is 1000 ballots with Green marked as second
preference, and deweighted. So are they imagining
that the Republicans who ranked the Green second
would all rank the Democrat third? Maybe. But
they have, then, every voter who ranked the Green
first preferring the Independent as second
choice, which is astonishingly unlikely if these
labels mean anything. Even if they are purely
arbitrary, i.e., "Republican," "Democrat," etc.,
might as well be "Candidate A," "Candidate B,"
etc., vote transfers like this wouldn't make sense.

The vote transfers from the Greens put the
Independent over the quota, so the Independent,
while trailing the Democrat in first preference
votes, by a large margin (2000 to 3000), wins the
second seat. This kind of election behavior,
quite simply, doesn't happen in real IRV
elections. The norm is that leaders in first
preference win the elections. However, strongly
partisan elections could possibly show different
patterns. IRV in Ann Arbor, Michigan, resulted in
the election of a Democrat when previous
elections had been spoiled by a Human Rights
Party candidate gaining some significant
percentage of the vote (I forget the number, it
was high for third parties, 10%?). But a loss to
a candidate initially leading by a ratio of 3 to
2? In order to show that, they had to use
drastically slanted vote transfers that seem to
assume ideological voting based on clear party
differences , yet which also don't make much sense even then.

Further, they neglected exhausted ballots
entirely. They show none. Again, highly unlikely.
Two candidates are being elected, but they show
no exhausted ballots even though some are
reaching down to third preference (the 1000
Republican first-preference voters who ranked the Green second preference.)

But they still try to make hay from this. When
they return to examine this sample election, they
state that "The City cannot declare that creating
fractional votes, splitting the political
associational intent of one voter between two or
more political ideologies is a small infraction
of constitutional rights to rationalize the need
for single transfer voting." Sic. They really should find a good proofreader.

In fact, that "split"” vote refers to the 0.5
vote fractional part of the vote totals
transferred, and does not, at all, represent a
single voter's vote being split between
candidates that were not chosen by the voter.
Rather, 3000 Republican voters cast a lower
preference vote for the Independent, and 1000 for
the Green, at 0.1665 vote each, having
experienced the win of their first preference.
They will not be complaining. The Green votes
ended up with the independent and the Democrat;
in no case did this happen without a voter
explicitly assigning their remaining fraction of
a vote to that candidate. By not reporting the
actual ballot breakdowns, they make it hard to
see this, but I can hope that the court will not
be taken in. Voters do not necessarily vote
"ideologically." They vote for candidates, and
"ideology," manifested through party affiliation,
is not a designed part of our system, some might
even consider it a parasitic growth. I highly
doubt it is mentioned in the Minnesota
Constitution, so this memorandum is not legal
reasoning as to the constitutionality of the
voting method, it is rationalization.

IRV is, compared to other, simpler alternatives,
an expensive election method that makes only a
modest improvement in performance over Plurality
and which actually degrades performance compared
to Top Two Runoff.. But it is properly
constitutional, and preferential voting was only
found unconstitutional in Minnesota (and nowhere
else) through some very poor legal reasoning that
just might, indeed, be analogous to Bush v. Gore,
but it's hard to tell after this lapse of time.
Bucklin voting, like other voting reforms, indeed
like any movement toward purer democracy, could
be feared to allow third parties to rise in
prominence, and thus it had to be stopped. And
for that kind of purpose, court majorities have
been known to manufacture entirely spurious arguments.


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Greg
2008-11-06 23:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Kathy,

>> Those documents make a good case. If you rule IRV/STV unconstitutional
>> due to non-monotonicity, you have to be prepared to rule open
>> primaries and top-two primaries unconstitutional as well.
>
> Your statement above is provably false Greg since plurality voting in
> both primary and general elections is very simply mathematically
> provably monotonic.

As you acknowledge, IRV does not satisfy monotonicity when there are
three (or more) candidates. Top-two runoff is equivalent to IRV when
there are three candidates. So if you're going to claim IRV is
unconstitutional due to non-monotonicity, you would, at least
logically, have to deem top-two runoff unconstitutional as well. The
affidavit from David Austen-Smith that you are hosting on your site
shows you a simple example of this:
http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/11AffidavitofDavidAusten-Smith.pdf


>> Note also that other arguments by the "MN Voter's Alliance" would, if
>> successful, would render *any* voting method that involves putting
>> marks next to multiple candidates -- IRV, Bucklin, Approval,
>> Condorcet, Range -- by its nature unconstitutional.
>
> Really?!* What arguments are those? I missed that.

That would be their response to argument #1 on their webpage against IRV:
http://www.mnvoters.org/IRV.htm

They claim that the act of marking multiple choices on the ballot is
effectively allowing the voter to cast "multiple votes," and
therefore, unconstitutional. If that argument is successful, it would
jeopardize any alternative to plurality in Minnesota.


>> They are also arguing that, because IRV satisfies Condorcet Loser and
>> therefore requires the winner to show *some* majority over another
>> candidate, that it could therefore lead to "tyranny" of the majority.
>
> Who is "they"? And where did "they" argue what you claim in your above sentence?

This is argument #2 on their page. Here's the link again:
http://www.mnvoters.org/IRV.htm

Here's is the relevant snippet:

"2. IRV advocates say the current primary system is flawed
because: "it undermines the 50% +1 majority-winner requirement."

Our response - The objection to a plurality system is misguided.
The Founding Founders gave us a Constitutional Republic, not a
majority-rule Democracy, because they knew pure majority rule often
leads to tyranny."

They then proceed to contradict themselves and claim that, actually,
IRV doesn't require a majority. So are they for some kind of majority
threshold or not? I don't think they know what they believe. They're
just throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.


>> These people are throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.
>> The fact that you've made allies with them is telling.
>
> Oh, OK. I now see why your statements above contradict facts. I'm
> always surprised at how emotionally attached and impervious to facts
> some folks are to IRV as a voting method.

Hmm, "emotionally attached and impervious to facts.". I detect some
psychological projection here.
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Kathy Dopp
2008-11-07 01:48:05 UTC
Permalink
> From: Greg <***@somervilleirv.org>
> Subject: Re: [EM] New MN court affidavits by those defending
> non-Monotonic voting methods & IRV/STV

>
> As you acknowledge, IRV does not satisfy monotonicity when there are
> three (or more) candidates.

True. IRV does not, but plurality does.

> Top-two runoff is equivalent to IRV when
> there are three candidates.

Greg,

Your statement above is provably false and very simply so. IRV and
top-two runoff are nowhere even close to "equivalent". Read my
affidavit from a month ago or my paper on the flaws of IRV or any of
Abd'ul's emails, or just think about it for a while.

> So if you're going to claim IRV is
> unconstitutional due to non-monotonicity, you would, at least
> logically, have to deem top-two runoff unconstitutional as well.

Why because top-two runoff elections are provably monotonic?

You do know that that doesn't make sense right?

> The
> affidavit from David Austen-Smith that you are hosting on your site
> shows you a simple example of this:
> http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/11AffidavitofDavidAusten-Smith.pdf

Obviously it does not, and that is simple to see. When one votes for
any candidate in either a primary or a general or a runoff election,
it INCREASES the chances of that candidate winning, unlike IRV.

Try getting any example that really shows that any plurality election
is nonmonotonic. You Can't. Just proclaiming it to be so, is just a
simple lie. Some IRV proponents might like to believe lies like that
which support their position, but we know that repeating the same lie
over and over is never going to make it true.

>>> Note also that other arguments by the "MN Voter's Alliance" would, if
>>> successful, would render *any* voting method that involves putting
>>> marks next to multiple candidates -- IRV, Bucklin, Approval,
>>> Condorcet, Range -- by its nature unconstitutional.

Yes. *IF* they are successful at convincing a judge that an obvious
falsehood that is simply disproven is the truth.

Any judge could be expected to be too smart than to fall for claims
that are so quickly and easily shown to be false.

Look, I'm asking for true comments of fact. Anyone have any of those
about these affidavits?

Kathy
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Bob Richard
2008-11-07 03:56:16 UTC
Permalink
Part of Kathy's argument here appears to depend on treating the first
and second rounds as if they were separate elections rather than two
steps in a single election method. If they could be taken separately,
each of the two rounds would be monotonic. The first round is either (1)
a plurality election if one candidate gets a majority, or (2) an SNTV
election to choose two finalists. The second is a plurality
election..Does anyone else find this convincing?

By itself, the first round isn't an election method at all, since it's
not known in advance whether there will be one "winner" or two. So to
me, at least, top-two runoff is a single election, even though the
rounds take place on different days (in some California local elections,
the rounds are five *months* apart). Understood in this way, top-two
runoff is non-monotonic. No one actually disputes that.

Also, for Kathy's edification on the difference between top-two and IRV.
Top-two fails the mutual majority criterion. IRV satisfies it.

--Bob

Kathy Dopp wrote
>> From: Greg <***@somervilleirv.org>
>> Subject: Re: [EM] New MN court affidavits by those defending
>> non-Monotonic voting methods & IRV/STV
>>
>
>
>> As you acknowledge, IRV does not satisfy monotonicity when there are
>> three (or more) candidates.
>>
>
> True. IRV does not, but plurality does.
>
>
>> Top-two runoff is equivalent to IRV when
>> there are three candidates.
>>
>
> Greg,
>
> Your statement above is provably false and very simply so. IRV and
> top-two runoff are nowhere even close to "equivalent". Read my
> affidavit from a month ago or my paper on the flaws of IRV or any of
> Abd'ul's emails, or just think about it for a while.
>
>
>> So if you're going to claim IRV is
>> unconstitutional due to non-monotonicity, you would, at least
>> logically, have to deem top-two runoff unconstitutional as well.
>>
>
> Why because top-two runoff elections are provably monotonic?
>
> You do know that that doesn't make sense right?
>
>
>> The
>> affidavit from David Austen-Smith that you are hosting on your site
>> shows you a simple example of this:
>> http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/11AffidavitofDavidAusten-Smith.pdf
>>
>
> Obviously it does not, and that is simple to see. When one votes for
> any candidate in either a primary or a general or a runoff election,
> it INCREASES the chances of that candidate winning, unlike IRV.
>
> Try getting any example that really shows that any plurality election
> is nonmonotonic. You Can't. Just proclaiming it to be so, is just a
> simple lie. Some IRV proponents might like to believe lies like that
> which support their position, but we know that repeating the same lie
> over and over is never going to make it true.
>
>
>>>> Note also that other arguments by the "MN Voter's Alliance" would, if
>>>> successful, would render *any* voting method that involves putting
>>>> marks next to multiple candidates -- IRV, Bucklin, Approval,
>>>> Condorcet, Range -- by its nature unconstitutional.
>>>>
>
> Yes. *IF* they are successful at convincing a judge that an obvious
> falsehood that is simply disproven is the truth.
>
> Any judge could be expected to be too smart than to fall for claims
> that are so quickly and easily shown to be false.
>
> Look, I'm asking for true comments of fact. Anyone have any of those
> about these affidavits?
>
> Kathy
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>
>
>

--
Bob Richard
Marin Ranked Voting
P.O. Box 235
Kentfield, CA 94914-0235
415-256-9393
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Kristofer Munsterhjelm
2008-11-07 09:09:44 UTC
Permalink
Kathy Dopp wrote:
>> From: Greg <***@somervilleirv.org>
>> Subject: Re: [EM] New MN court affidavits by those defending
>> non-Monotonic voting methods & IRV/STV
>
>> As you acknowledge, IRV does not satisfy monotonicity when there are
>> three (or more) candidates.
>
> True. IRV does not, but plurality does.
>
>> Top-two runoff is equivalent to IRV when
>> there are three candidates.
>
> Greg,
>
> Your statement above is provably false and very simply so. IRV and
> top-two runoff are nowhere even close to "equivalent". Read my
> affidavit from a month ago or my paper on the flaws of IRV or any of
> Abd'ul's emails, or just think about it for a while.

If you consider top two runoff a single election that takes ranked
ballots (people's preference orderings), and first votes for the
first-ranked and then (on the second round) for whoever ranks highest of
the candidates remaining in the race, then TTR is nonmonotonic.

Abd seems to show that TTR cannot be reduced in such a mechanical
manner, by that states that, when using TTR, used to elect candidates
that weren't plurality winners, no longer elects them under IRV. Thus,
the deliberation period between the first and second rounds are of
importance. I don't think that makes TTR monotonic, though.

What we'd need to show to have TTR nonmonotonic even with deliberation
is for A and B to be winners if you vote in a "strategic" manner, but,
if you raise your honest favorites, C and D win, both of which you think
are worse than A and B. Can this be done? (Other list members, anyone? :-)

Anyway, the point is that your nonmonotonicity argument against IRV
could be used by others to argue that TTR is a virtual single-round
method (of the form I described above), and thus that it too is
nonmonotonic, and thus that either nonmonotonicity is too strict, or
that TTR must be reverted to Plurality.
If you face this, I think you should argue that TTR is a two-round
mechanism and thus the deliberation gets around the problem (unless the
A,B->C,D example is possible, in which case you have a problem). Or you
might say that getting rid of TTR is a price you'll have to pay, and
that getting Condorcet later might just be worth that price. Beware that
you might look like a Plurality defender if you do so, though;
especially so since TTR seems to give better results than Plurality, and
probably better results than IRV too.
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Kathy Dopp
2008-11-07 09:31:23 UTC
Permalink
>>> From: Greg <***@somervilleirv.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [EM] New MN court affidavits by those defending
>>> non-Monotonic voting methods & IRV/STV

> Abd seems to show that TTR cannot be reduced in such a mechanical manner,

You guys seem to forget the biggest difference btwn TTR or
primary/general and IRV is that ALL voters are free to participate in
the second of the TTR elections or the general election - completely
unlike all the voters with expired ballots in the final IRV counting
rounds - esp. when their number of choices are restricted. THINK about
it instead of continuing this steady stream of mouth-open, brain-shut
nonsense.

Plus there are numerous other differences. Re-read my paper on the
flaws of IRV or re-read my affidavit to refresh yourselves on some of
the differences between the two methods (two elections versus IRV).
They are not remotely equivalent.

Kathy
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Greg
2008-11-07 03:39:02 UTC
Permalink
Kathy,

>> Top-two runoff is equivalent to IRV when
>> there are three candidates.
>
> Your statement above is provably false and very simply so. IRV and
> top-two runoff are nowhere even close to "equivalent". Read my
> affidavit from a month ago or my paper on the flaws of IRV or any of
> Abd'ul's emails, or just think about it for a while.

You have often cited Warren Smith as one of the experts who "peer
reviewed" your prior arguments. I don't always agree with Warren, but
I do on this point. To quote from one of his pages:

"But the delayed and instant runoff systems happen to be
mathematically equivalent if the voters are consistent between rounds
and if there are ≤3 candidates."
http://rangevoting.org/Peru06.html

You disagree, claiming they are "nowhere even close to equivalent."
Nowhere! Should you be letting someone peer-review your papers who you
makes a statement you deem "provably false and very simply so?" I
don't know how you can continue to contradict yourself in this way.
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Kathy Dopp
2008-11-07 09:10:31 UTC
Permalink
> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 22:39:02 -0500
> From: Greg <***@somervilleirv.org>

> You have often cited Warren Smith as one of the experts who "peer
> reviewed" your prior arguments. I don't always agree with Warren, but
> I do on this point. To quote from one of his pages:
>
> "But the delayed and instant runoff systems happen to be
> mathematically equivalent if the voters are consistent between rounds
> and if there are ?3 candidates."
> http://rangevoting.org/Peru06.html
>
> You disagree, claiming they are "nowhere even close to equivalent."
> Nowhere! Should you be letting someone peer-review your papers who you
> makes a statement you deem "provably false and very simply so?" I
> don't know how you can continue to contradict yourself in this way.

Greg, I'm a mathematician, so when I say "provably so" I mean mathematically.

You don't need me to point out all the detailed ways that top-two
runoff is different than IRV, just sit down and think about it. You
have a brain. Use a paper and pencil to help figure out and list the
differences if necessary. Obviously more voters are able to
participate if they choose to, in a top-two runoff than in any final
IRV round in any IRV election where there are more candidates than the
number of possible ballot rankings. Thus in top two runoff there is
more likely to be a majority candidate, chosen by more than 50% of
voters as opposed to IRV where 100% of voters rarely participate in
the final counting rounds when there are alot of candidates, or if the
IRV winner is the same as the first-round winner, then the result is
the same as plurality with no runoff or second chance at all. That's
just one big difference between the methods. Instant runoff is far
fairer to more voters and has lots of other advantages over IRV. Just
sit and study the issue for a while.

I don't know what "delayed runoff" is. Never heard of that.

Kathy
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Kathy Dopp
2008-11-07 09:19:39 UTC
Permalink
> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 19:56:16 -0800
> From: Bob Richard <***@robertjrichard.com>
> Subject: Re: [EM] New MN court affidavits by those defending
> non-Monotonic voting methods & IRV/STV

> Part of Kathy's argument here appears to depend on treating the first
> and second rounds as if they were separate elections rather than two
> steps in a single election method. If they could be taken separately,
> each of the two rounds would be monotonic.

Since you are talking about "rounds" you must be talking about IRV, in
which case you are grossly mischaracterizing my position or have very
poor reading comprehension.

If you are talking about top-two runoff elections or primary and
general elections, you are grossly mischaracterizing what any election
official can inform you are clearly two separate elections and are
most certainly nothing like "rounds" in an IRV election, in which case
you need to sit down and give some serious thought to the differences
to clear out the cobwebs.

There is such a thing as real life despite some of the conversations
on this list that seem to be determined to live in an alternate
universe.

Perhaps consult with your local election officials if you're still
confused and don't believe me that top two runoff or primary and
general *elections* involve two separate elections.

Kathy
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Chris Benham
2008-11-07 16:30:18 UTC
Permalink
Greg wrote (Th.Nov.6):
Those documents make a good case. If you rule IRV/STV unconstitutional
due to non-monotonicity, you have to be prepared to rule open
primaries and top-two primaries unconstitutional as well.

Note also that other arguments by the "MN Voter's Alliance" would, if
successful, would render *any* voting method that involves putting
marks next to multiple candidates -- IRV, Bucklin, Approval,
Condorcet, Range -- by its nature unconstitutional.

-snip-

That anti-IRV group explicitly say as much:

"Additional note:  There are several other "non-traditional" voting methods
currently being advocated around the country. Among these are Range Voting
and Approval Voting. (See the NYU report linked above) While these schemes
are better in some ways than IRV, they retain some of the same fatal flaws which
 make IRV unconstitutional."

http://www.mnvoters.org/IRV.htm


Chris Benham



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Dave Ketchum
2008-11-07 20:35:57 UTC
Permalink
Topic below is monotonicity, which seems discardable as a side issue.

Of more importance is IRV's NOT CARING whether more voters indicate
preferring A>B or B>A - can even declare A the winner when a majority of
voters prefer B of this pair.

Example:
20 A>B
15 C>B>A
10 D>B>A

Here a majority prefer B>A, but C and D have a special attraction for some
some minorities.

DWK

On Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:23:39 -0700 Kathy Dopp wrote:
> FYI,
>
> Defendants in the MN Case (who are promoting IRV and STV methods) have
> just released new affidavits to the court that discuss Arrow's theorem
> as supporting the case for IRV/STV and dismissing the importance of
> IRV's nonmonotonicity.
>
> I posted three of these most recent affidavits of the defendants of
> Instant Runoff Voting and STV here:
>
> http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/
>
> The first two docs listed are by Fair Vote's new expert witness.
>
> The third doc is by the Minneapolis, MN City attorney.
>
> The defendants characterize Arrow's theorem as proving that "there
> exists no unequivocally satisfactory, or normatively appealing, voting
> rule." and claim the "possibility of nonmonotonic results plagues ALL
> potential democratic voting systems with 3 or more candidates unless a
> dictatorial voting rule is adopted."
>
> I would appreciate it if any of you have time to read some of the
> above three docs, particularly the third document by the attorney, and
> give me your responses.
>
> FYI, the plaintiff's characterizes Arrow's theorem on p. 3 of this doc:
>
> http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/11SuplementaryReplyMemoinSupportofMotionforSummaryJudgment.pdf
>
> Thank you.
>
> Kathy
--
***@clarityconnect.com people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.



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Dave Ketchum
2008-11-08 03:09:12 UTC
Permalink
Perhaps this could get some useful muscle by adding such as:
9 B>A

Now we have 34 voting B>A. Enough that they can expect to win and may have
as strong a preference between these two as might happen anywhere.

C and D represent issues many feel strongly about - and can want to assert
to encourage action by B, the expected winner. If ONE voter had voted B>A
rather than D>B>A, IRV would have declared B the winner.

Note that Condorcet would have declared B the winner any time the B>A count
exceeded the A>B count (unless C or D got many more votes).

DWK

On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 14:05:03 -0700 Kathy Dopp wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I agree with you -that is important too, but the attorneys and
> judge(s) have their own criteria for judging importance as compared to
> existing laws.
>
> Your example IMO does show unequal treatment of voters, so perhaps
> I'll include it as one of many ways to show how IRV unequally treats
> voters and see if the attorneys use it or not.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Kathy
>
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 1:35 PM, Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com> wrote:
>
>>Topic below is monotonicity, which seems discardable as a side issue.
>>
>>Of more importance is IRV's NOT CARING whether more voters indicate
>>preferring A>B or B>A - can even declare A the winner when a majority of
>>voters prefer B of this pair.
>>
>>Example:
>>20 A>B
>>15 C>B>A
>>10 D>B>A
>>
>>Here a majority prefer B>A, but C and D have a special attraction for some
>>some minorities.
>>
>>DWK
>>
>>On Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:23:39 -0700 Kathy Dopp wrote:
>>
>>>FYI,
>>>
>>>Defendants in the MN Case (who are promoting IRV and STV methods) have
>>>just released new affidavits to the court that discuss Arrow's theorem
>>>as supporting the case for IRV/STV and dismissing the importance of
>>>IRV's nonmonotonicity.
>>>
>>>I posted three of these most recent affidavits of the defendants of
>>>Instant Runoff Voting and STV here:
>>>
>>>http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/
>>>
>>>The first two docs listed are by Fair Vote's new expert witness.
>>>
>>>The third doc is by the Minneapolis, MN City attorney.
>>>
>>>The defendants characterize Arrow's theorem as proving that "there
>>>exists no unequivocally satisfactory, or normatively appealing, voting
>>>rule." and claim the "possibility of nonmonotonic results plagues ALL
>>>potential democratic voting systems with 3 or more candidates unless a
>>>dictatorial voting rule is adopted."
>>>
>>>I would appreciate it if any of you have time to read some of the
>>>above three docs, particularly the third document by the attorney, and
>>>give me your responses.
>>>
>>>FYI, the plaintiff's characterizes Arrow's theorem on p. 3 of this doc:
>>>
>>>
>>>http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/11SuplementaryReplyMemoinSupportofMotionforSummaryJudgment.pdf
>>>
>>>Thank you.
>>>
>>>Kathy
--
***@clarityconnect.com people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.



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Terry Bouricius
2008-11-08 15:02:15 UTC
Permalink
But Dave Ketchum's example is about how IRV can fail to elect a Condorcet
winner. This candidate gets zero votes under plurality rules and is
immediately eliminated under two-round runoff rules as well. Plurality and
Two-round runoffs are the two systems the plaintiffs are seeking to
preserve, while "constitutionally" prohibiting Condorcet (as well as IRV).

Terry Bouricius

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Ketchum" <***@clarityconnect.com>
To: <***@gmail.com>; <election-***@lists.electorama.com>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: [EM] New MN court affidavits by those defending non-Monotonic
voting methods & IRV/STV


Perhaps this could get some useful muscle by adding such as:
9 B>A

Now we have 34 voting B>A. Enough that they can expect to win and may
have
as strong a preference between these two as might happen anywhere.

C and D represent issues many feel strongly about - and can want to assert
to encourage action by B, the expected winner. If ONE voter had voted B>A
rather than D>B>A, IRV would have declared B the winner.

Note that Condorcet would have declared B the winner any time the B>A
count
exceeded the A>B count (unless C or D got many more votes).

DWK

On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 14:05:03 -0700 Kathy Dopp wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I agree with you -that is important too, but the attorneys and
> judge(s) have their own criteria for judging importance as compared to
> existing laws.
>
> Your example IMO does show unequal treatment of voters, so perhaps
> I'll include it as one of many ways to show how IRV unequally treats
> voters and see if the attorneys use it or not.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Kathy
>
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 1:35 PM, Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Topic below is monotonicity, which seems discardable as a side issue.
>>
>>Of more importance is IRV's NOT CARING whether more voters indicate
>>preferring A>B or B>A - can even declare A the winner when a majority of
>>voters prefer B of this pair.
>>
>>Example:
>>20 A>B
>>15 C>B>A
>>10 D>B>A
>>
>>Here a majority prefer B>A, but C and D have a special attraction for
>>some
>>some minorities.
>>
>>DWK
>>
>>On Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:23:39 -0700 Kathy Dopp wrote:
>>
>>>FYI,
>>>
>>>Defendants in the MN Case (who are promoting IRV and STV methods) have
>>>just released new affidavits to the court that discuss Arrow's theorem
>>>as supporting the case for IRV/STV and dismissing the importance of
>>>IRV's nonmonotonicity.
>>>
>>>I posted three of these most recent affidavits of the defendants of
>>>Instant Runoff Voting and STV here:
>>>
>>>http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/
>>>
>>>The first two docs listed are by Fair Vote's new expert witness.
>>>
>>>The third doc is by the Minneapolis, MN City attorney.
>>>
>>>The defendants characterize Arrow's theorem as proving that "there
>>>exists no unequivocally satisfactory, or normatively appealing, voting
>>>rule." and claim the "possibility of nonmonotonic results plagues ALL
>>>potential democratic voting systems with 3 or more candidates unless a
>>>dictatorial voting rule is adopted."
>>>
>>>I would appreciate it if any of you have time to read some of the
>>>above three docs, particularly the third document by the attorney, and
>>>give me your responses.
>>>
>>>FYI, the plaintiff's characterizes Arrow's theorem on p. 3 of this doc:
>>>
>>>
>>>http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/11SuplementaryReplyMemoinSupportofMotionforSummaryJudgment.pdf
>>>
>>>Thank you.
>>>
>>>Kathy
--
***@clarityconnect.com people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.



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Dave Ketchum
2008-11-08 17:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Trivia: B gets at least 9 votes with Plurality, more if voters recognize
the method and adjust their voting.

Agreed that Plurality and Two-round runoffs should lose against any good
system - as should IRV.

If the court cannot do better, perhaps they should throw the case out for
weakness in arguments - I see either side winning producing nothing but
trouble.

DWK

On Sat, 8 Nov 2008 10:02:15 -0500 Terry Bouricius wrote:
> But Dave Ketchum's example is about how IRV can fail to elect a Condorcet
> winner. This candidate gets zero votes under plurality rules and is
> immediately eliminated under two-round runoff rules as well. Plurality and
> Two-round runoffs are the two systems the plaintiffs are seeking to
> preserve, while "constitutionally" prohibiting Condorcet (as well as IRV).
>
> Terry Bouricius
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Ketchum" <***@clarityconnect.com>
> To: <***@gmail.com>; <election-***@lists.electorama.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [EM] New MN court affidavits by those defending non-Monotonic
> voting methods & IRV/STV
>
>
> Perhaps this could get some useful muscle by adding such as:
> 9 B>A
>
> Now we have 34 voting B>A. Enough that they can expect to win and may
> have
> as strong a preference between these two as might happen anywhere.
>
> C and D represent issues many feel strongly about - and can want to assert
> to encourage action by B, the expected winner. If ONE voter had voted B>A
> rather than D>B>A, IRV would have declared B the winner.
>
> Note that Condorcet would have declared B the winner any time the B>A
> count
> exceeded the A>B count (unless C or D got many more votes).
>
> DWK
>
> On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 14:05:03 -0700 Kathy Dopp wrote:
>
>>Dave,
>>
>>I agree with you -that is important too, but the attorneys and
>>judge(s) have their own criteria for judging importance as compared to
>>existing laws.
>>
>>Your example IMO does show unequal treatment of voters, so perhaps
>>I'll include it as one of many ways to show how IRV unequally treats
>>voters and see if the attorneys use it or not.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>Kathy
>>
>>On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 1:35 PM, Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Topic below is monotonicity, which seems discardable as a side issue.
>>>
>>>Of more importance is IRV's NOT CARING whether more voters indicate
>>>preferring A>B or B>A - can even declare A the winner when a majority of
>>>voters prefer B of this pair.
>>>
>>>Example:
>>>20 A>B
>>>15 C>B>A
>>>10 D>B>A
>>>
>>>Here a majority prefer B>A, but C and D have a special attraction for
>>>some
>>>some minorities.
>>>
>>>DWK
>>>
>>>On Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:23:39 -0700 Kathy Dopp wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>FYI,
>>>>
>>>>Defendants in the MN Case (who are promoting IRV and STV methods) have
>>>>just released new affidavits to the court that discuss Arrow's theorem
>>>>as supporting the case for IRV/STV and dismissing the importance of
>>>>IRV's nonmonotonicity.
>>>>
>>>>I posted three of these most recent affidavits of the defendants of
>>>>Instant Runoff Voting and STV here:
>>>>
>>>>http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/
>>>>
>>>>The first two docs listed are by Fair Vote's new expert witness.
>>>>
>>>>The third doc is by the Minneapolis, MN City attorney.
>>>>
>>>>The defendants characterize Arrow's theorem as proving that "there
>>>>exists no unequivocally satisfactory, or normatively appealing, voting
>>>>rule." and claim the "possibility of nonmonotonic results plagues ALL
>>>>potential democratic voting systems with 3 or more candidates unless a
>>>>dictatorial voting rule is adopted."
>>>>
>>>>I would appreciate it if any of you have time to read some of the
>>>>above three docs, particularly the third document by the attorney, and
>>>>give me your responses.
>>>>
>>>>FYI, the plaintiff's characterizes Arrow's theorem on p. 3 of this doc:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/11SuplementaryReplyMemoinSupportofMotionforSummaryJudgment.pdf
>>>>
>>>>Thank you.
>>>>
>>>>Kathy
--
***@clarityconnect.com people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.



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Chris Benham
2008-11-08 05:40:41 UTC
Permalink
Dave,
Are you really comfortable supporting and supplying ammunition to a
group of avowed FPP supporters in their effort to have IRV declared
unconstitutional?

Will have any complaint when in future they are trying to do the same
thing to some Condorcet method you like and IRV supporters help
them on grounds like it fails Later-no-Harm, Later-no-Help, and
probably  mono-add-top?

Chris Benham

 



Dave Ketchum wrote (Fri.Nov.7):
Perhaps this could get some useful muscle by adding such as:
      9 B>A

Now we have 34 voting B>A.  Enough that they can expect to win and may have
as strong a preference between these two as might happen anywhere.

C and D represent issues many feel strongly about - and can want to assert
to encourage action by B, the expected winner.  If ONE voter had voted B>A
rather than D>B>A, IRV would have declared B the winner.

Note that Condorcet would have declared B the winner any time the B>A count
exceeded the A>B count (unless C or D got many more votes).

DWK

On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 14:05:03 -0700 Kathy Dopp wrote:
>Dave,
>
>I agree with you -that is important too, but the attorneys and
>judge(s) have their own criteria for judging importance as compared to
>existing laws.
>
>Your example IMO does show unequal treatment of voters, so perhaps
>I'll include it as one of many ways to show how IRV unequally treats
>voters and see if the attorneys use it or not.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Kathy


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Dave Ketchum
2008-11-08 16:04:56 UTC
Permalink
I have been against IRV's way of 'counting' ballots since the first time I
heard of such, long before IRV or EM were born.

So, if the ammunition I supplied has an effect I will be delighted, and
have nothing against others' similar efforts.

DWK

On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 21:40:41 -0800 (PST) Chris Benham wrote:
> Dave,
> Are you really comfortable supporting and supplying ammunition to a
> group of avowed FPP supporters in their effort to have IRV declared
> unconstitutional?
>
> Will have any complaint when in future they are trying to do the same
> thing to some Condorcet method you like and IRV supporters help
> them on grounds like it fails Later-no-Harm, Later-no-Help, and
> probably mono-add-top?
>
> Chris Benham
>
>
>
>
>
> Dave Ketchum wrote (Fri.Nov.7):
> Perhaps this could get some useful muscle by adding such as:
> 9 B>A
>
> Now we have 34 voting B>A. Enough that they can expect to win and may have
> as strong a preference between these two as might happen anywhere.
>
> C and D represent issues many feel strongly about - and can want to assert
> to encourage action by B, the expected winner. If ONE voter had voted B>A
> rather than D>B>A, IRV would have declared B the winner.
>
> Note that Condorcet would have declared B the winner any time the B>A count
> exceeded the A>B count (unless C or D got many more votes).
>
> DWK
>
> On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 14:05:03 -0700 Kathy Dopp wrote:
> > Dave,
> >
> > I agree with you -that is important too, but the attorneys and
> > judge(s) have their own criteria for judging importance as compared to
> > existing laws.
> >
> > Your example IMO does show unequal treatment of voters, so perhaps
> > I'll include it as one of many ways to show how IRV unequally treats
> > voters and see if the attorneys use it or not.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Kathy
--
***@clarityconnect.com people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.



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Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
2008-11-09 01:16:40 UTC
Permalink
I responded later in this thread, I've now gone back to the beginning
of it. I have had, of course, a special interest in Brown v.
Smallwood, the reasoning (or lack of same) behind it, and the
implications. Contrary to a couple of years of propaganda on the
topic, Brown v. Smallwood clearly prohibited any kind of "alternative
vote," not just the specific form known as Bucklin voting.

Brown v. Smallwood did not follow the precedents of other states, nor
did it become a precedent for other states. That's one side of this
issue. I'd consider BvS ripe for reversal.

But the problem is that FairVote and its proxies have argued that BvS
is valid, but that it does not apply to sequential-elimination
preferential voting, because only one vote is considered at any given
time. Thus they have attempted, in effect, to use BvS to allow IRV,
but not the probably superior Buckling voting, Approval, or Condorcet methods.

In particular, while Bucklin, like Approval, does allow votes for
more than one candidate to be active at any given moment, as must any
Condorcet method (with an exception of sequential-ballot forms with a
true majority requirement, used in parliamentary procedure but never
for public elections), in the end, only one vote *at most* is
effective. All other votes are moot and could be struck from the
ballots without affecting the outcome. Thus these methods do satisfy
the basic requirement of one-person, one-vote, *in terms of
determining the outcome.*

FairVote has attempted to make a virtue of the very serious Center
Squeeze problem of Instant Runoff Voting. They will say, over and
over, "voting for a lower preference candidate can never harm your
first preference." (It's not always true, if there is a true majority
requirement for election, but that's an unusual detail. IRV usually
*replaces* majority requirements, being sold as a supposedly cheaper
substitute for runoff elections. But it was true for the IRV proposed
by Mr. Bouricius in Vermont, while he was still in the legislature
there. Even though the "promise" was, by the legislation, placed in
the ballot instructions.)

However, when Woodall proposed Later-no-harm as a criterion, he noted
that a referee had commented, expressing disgust with this criterion.
It does, in fact, strike at the heart of democratic process, which
ideally involves seeking broadly-acceptable compromises (with the
minimum standard of acceptance being a majority approval of an
outcome); in order to collapse this into a single ballot, reasonably,
it's necessary for lower preferences than first preference to be
considered. Hence STV, used for single-winner elections, eliminates a
very important aspect of electoral democracy; this is why Robert's
Rules treats IRV as they do (with some distaste), and they do *not*
advise allowing election by plurality, ever. I.e., the "IRV" that
they describe does not avoid all runoffs, just, possibly, some. A
true majority continues to be an election requirement.

STV used for multiwinner elections still has this flaw in the last
candidate elected, but it does a generally good job with all the
other candidates; thus STV used for PR, particularly with more than
just two or three seats elected in a block, is quite a respectable
method. It's just the single winner variant that is truly
problematic. The problem arises when candidates start to be
eliminated before all the possible votes for them have been
considered. And this elimination is necessary to satisfy
later-no-harm, a very recently invented election criterion that seems
desirable only to the shallow in understanding.

Consider a ballot as a means whereby neighbors negotiate some common
decision. If I refuse to allow my lower preferences to be considered
until it has become clear that my favorite outcome has lost, and if
this is enforced by the ballot analysis method, it is impossible to
find compromise candidates, and the decision may fail to be the most
broadly acceptable, even if my first preference is only slightly
better for me than my second. When electing representatives, this
seeking of compromise is crucial, for government and the people to
remain closely connected. Clearly, proportional representation
methods, if properly designed, are far more desirable than
winner-take-all, single representative per district elections;
however, short of that reform, single-winner elections that go to the
first preference plurality can be expected to tend toward partisan
loyalty and two-party rule, as per Duverger.

Now, if IRV did, in fact, find majorities, it would be an improvement
over Plurality. By applying the study of single-transferable-vote,
done with full preference listings, to IRV, the promoters of IRV have
made it seem that this method would be such an improvement. But they
have glossed over a serious problem: IRV, in actual practice, as
implemented in the United States, where a majority does not appear in
the first round votes, only rarely finds one after vote transfers. It
is thus *normal* that most voters have voted *against* the winner,
i.e., they voted for someone else. What happened?

Their votes were exhausted, discarded, as not containing votes for
one of the top two candidates. If you've been paying attention, this
should start to sound familiar. That's what Plurality does. In
Australia, it seems that they get around this by requiring all voters
to rank all candidates; however, this only produces an illusion of
majority support, by requiring voters, essentially, to vote for one
of the top two, or their vote will be discarded as informal. (I.e.,
the voters are required to vote for all candidates but one.) Where,
in Australia, voters may truncate (not rank all candidates) (Optional
Preferential Voting, as in Queensland), the law was changed to
eliminate the absolute majority requirement used elsewhere; instead
something like "a majority of ballots containing votes for continuing
candidates" is substituted. And it's well-known that the first round
leader almost always wins the election.

Bottom line: IRV frequently elects by plurality, just like Plurality.
In non-partisan elections, exceptions are rare. There is no example
in recent U.S. history of the usage of IRV (since the adoption in San
Francisco) where the first round leader did not go on to win the
election. On the other hand, in Top Two Runoff elections, there is a
"comeback" election about one-third of the time. The strong
implication is that in about one IRV election out of ten, a candidate
is elected who would have lost a runoff against one of the other
candidates. The very existence of this phenomenon, and its
implications, except for my own so-far little-known work, have been
generally ignored.

Top Two Runoff has an obvious problem, if the first round is simple
vote-for-one. Sometimes a compromise candidate fails to make it into
the runoff. This is really the same problem as IRV, but the problem
doesn't exist -- or is ameliorated -- under some election rules. In
particular, Robert's Rules, for runoff elections, does not allow
ballot restriction. Partly for practical reasons, and partly for
political reasons (favoring major parties), popular political
elections do; however, under default rules in some places, including
California, runoff elections allow for write-in votes. Thus no
candidate is ever actually eliminated. Further, because
runoff-elections often involve more highly motivated voters, the
possibility of a write-in winner in a runoff becomes more real than
we would ordinarily consider it to be. A recent mayor of Long Beach,
California, won re-election even though term limits prevented her
from appearing on the ballot. (Long Beach is not a small town,
population is 466,718). If a candidate is a Condorcet winner as
determined by sincere preference rankings, and if the preference
strength is significant, as it apparently was in this Long Beach
election, the Condorcet winner should prevail, even though
"eliminated" in the first round.

(For years, election methods theorists totally disregarded preference
strength, though it is crucial in understanding election method
performance. A criterion "failure" that is based on minor preference
is less serious than one, otherwise similar, where the offended
preferences were strong. When a Condorcet winner fails to make it
into a runoff, but a candidate who is only slightly less preferred
does, voters or their leaders would not be exercised to conduct a
write-in campaign. But if the preference is strong, they can and
would. And have. Likewise, if a voter has only a small preference
between two candidates in a runoff (perhaps likes both, or detests
both), the voter is not exercised to turn out and vote, thus exerting
a Range-like effect on runoff vote totals.)

But, of course, IRV eliminates the runoff, thus eliminating a crucial
democratic principle, considered essential, that no decision be made
without majority approval of those voting in the election. Now, with
the Long Beach election, no majority was found even in the runoff,
because there was an independent write-in campaign. (The runoff had
only the name of the runner-up from the primary election on it.)
That's a compromise. But TTR is far closer to the democratic
majority-rule ideal than any method confined to a single ballot could
possibly be. To make it perfect, one would have to continue to
require a majority, thus risking a lengthy series of ballots, though,
in actual practice that doesn't happen much.

(Obviously, Plurality similarly discards this principle. One might
note that deliberative bodies, even large ones like the U.S. House,
would never use Plurality to elect their leaders. They use the
*method*, i.e. the ballot is vote-for-one, but with that crucial
detail: if there is no majority, the election fails and must be
repeated. Thus *the method is Condorcet-compliant, if there is a
Condorcet winner.* And TTR, a method which is not uncommon in the
U.S., likewise meets, *substantially,* the Condorcet Criterion if
write-ins continue to be allowed. IRV is replacing that method with
something inferior.

This is pernicious. But Brown v. Smallwood was a bad decision and
should be overturned, fully. The danger is that FairVote arguments
would result in a warped application of Brown v. Smallwood, to allow
IRV but not superior preferential or other advanced methods. Further,
wherever IRV has replaced top-two runoff, it should be made clear and
publicized that this is giving an inferior result about one-tenth of the time.

I only did a preliminary study, but Bucklin voting would find more
majorities than IRV does, because it does end up counting all the
votes, unlike IRV. (That IRV only counts some of the votes and not
others is an equal protection argument that could be advanced against
it. In Bucklin, all votes are treated equally. Bucklin is a kind of
sequential Approval voting.) My estimate is that about one-third of
the "majority failures" of IRV would be handled by Bucklin. I don't
have proof of it, but there is a good chance that most of the
possible "comeback elections" would have an unresolved majority
failure in the first round, under Bucklin. Bucklin, because it does
not eliminate candidates, but continues to count all votes to the
end, would, I believe, do a better job of finding a set of two
candidates to present in a runoff than would IRV. It is highly
unlikely that a possible runoff winner wouldn't be one of the top two
in a first round.

I will examine the affidavits posted by Kathy Dopp, separately.

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Raph Frank
2008-11-10 12:30:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:16 AM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <***@lomaxdesign.com> wrote:
> Top Two Runoff has an obvious problem, if the first round is simple
> vote-for-one. Sometimes a compromise candidate fails to make it into the
> runoff. This is really the same problem as IRV, but the problem doesn't
> exist -- or is ameliorated -- under some election rules. In particular,
> Robert's Rules, for runoff elections, does not allow ballot restriction.

As a compromise to repeating the balloting until the deadlock is
resolved, what about the following rules

Round 1

- All candidates on the ballot
- If a candidate gets a majority, he is elected and no further rounds held

Round 2

- All candidates on the ballot
- The top 2 from round 1 appear first on the ballot and are marked as top-2
- If a candidate gets a majority, he is elected and round 3 is not held

Round 3

- One of the top 2 from round 1 is on the ballot
-- (the one who received the most votes in round 2)

- The plurality winner of round 2 is on the ballot
-- (excluding the above candidate)

- Candidate with the most votes wins

This gives the voters 2 chances to pick a majority winner before going
to run-off.

In a 'normal' top-2 situation, the top 2 will also be the top 2 in
round 2 and they will be the 2 candidates for round 3. In fact, it
would likely result in round 2 being the last round as one of them
would get a majority.
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Juho Laatu
2008-11-10 16:05:16 UTC
Permalink
FYI. Finland used to have three rounds in the presidential elections. Since 1994 a typical direct two round method has been used. Before that (in most elections) the voters first elected 300 (or 301) electors who then voted in three rounds (two candidates at the last round).

Reasons behind moving to the direct two round system included assumed general popularity of a direct election, some problems with heavy trading and planning of votes by the electors, possibility of black horses and other voting patterns that are not based on the citizens' votes. Maybe three rounds / three election days in a direct election would have been too expensive and too tiring.

- - - - -

One somewhat related method:

I sometimes played with the idea that in IRV one would not totally eliminate the least popular (first place) candidates but would use some softer means and would allow the "eliminated" candidates to win later if they turn out to be the favourites of many voters (after their first preference candidates have lost all chances to win).

One could e.g. force supporters of the "eliminated" candidates to approve more than one candidate (at least one of the "remaining" candidates) (instead of just bullet voting their second preference). On possible way to terminate the algorithm would be to stop when someone has reached >50% approval level.

Also in "non-instant" runoffs one could e.g. force the voters to approve at least one on the "remaining" candidates. (One could eliminate more than one candidate at different rounds.)

Juho


--- On Mon, 10/11/08, Raph Frank <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Raph Frank <***@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [EM] New MN court affidavits by those defending non-Monotonic voting methods & IRV/STV
> To: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" <***@lomaxdesign.com>
> Cc: ***@gmail.com, "EM" <election-***@lists.electorama.com>
> Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 2:30 PM
> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:16 AM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
> <***@lomaxdesign.com> wrote:
> > Top Two Runoff has an obvious problem, if the first
> round is simple
> > vote-for-one. Sometimes a compromise candidate fails
> to make it into the
> > runoff. This is really the same problem as IRV, but
> the problem doesn't
> > exist -- or is ameliorated -- under some election
> rules. In particular,
> > Robert's Rules, for runoff elections, does not
> allow ballot restriction.
>
> As a compromise to repeating the balloting until the
> deadlock is
> resolved, what about the following rules
>
> Round 1
>
> - All candidates on the ballot
> - If a candidate gets a majority, he is elected and no
> further rounds held
>
> Round 2
>
> - All candidates on the ballot
> - The top 2 from round 1 appear first on the ballot and are
> marked as top-2
> - If a candidate gets a majority, he is elected and round 3
> is not held
>
> Round 3
>
> - One of the top 2 from round 1 is on the ballot
> -- (the one who received the most votes in round 2)
>
> - The plurality winner of round 2 is on the ballot
> -- (excluding the above candidate)
>
> - Candidate with the most votes wins
>
> This gives the voters 2 chances to pick a majority winner
> before going
> to run-off.
>
> In a 'normal' top-2 situation, the top 2 will also
> be the top 2 in
> round 2 and they will be the 2 candidates for round 3. In
> fact, it
> would likely result in round 2 being the last round as one
> of them
> would get a majority.
> ----
> Election-Methods mailing list - see
> http://electorama.com/em for list info



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Raph Frank
2008-11-10 17:59:11 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Juho Laatu <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> One could e.g. force supporters of the "eliminated" candidates to approve more than one candidate (at least one of the "remaining" candidates) (instead of just bullet voting their second preference). On possible way to terminate the algorithm would be to stop when someone has reached >50% approval level.
>
> Also in "non-instant" runoffs one could e.g. force the voters to approve at least one on the "remaining" candidates. (One could eliminate more than one candidate at different rounds.)

That is kinda like Bucklin, though without the approval threshold
changing in each round for all voters.

The process could be

1) Each candidate is designated a strong candidate
2) Each ballot is considered to approve the highest ranked strong
candidate and all candidates ranked higher.
3) If the most approved candidate has > 50%, then that candidate is elected.
4) Re-designated the least approved strong candidate a weak candidate
and goto 2).

It still suffers from centre squeeze effects, though.

For example

45: A>B>C
9: B>A>C
46: C>B>A

Round 1

A: 45
B: 9
C: 46

no winner, B designated 'weak'

Round 2

A: 54
B: 9
C: 41

A wins.

The method has potential strategic truncation incentives.

If B voters bullet voted for B, the result would have been

Round 2

A: 46
B: 9
C: 41

C designated 'weak'

Round 3

A: 46
B: 55
C: 41

B wins

Ofc, the other voters can use counter strategies.

It might be worth adding a rule that if all candidates on a ballot
are weak, the ballot counts as approving everyone.
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Juho Laatu
2008-11-10 23:59:50 UTC
Permalink
--- On Mon, 10/11/08, Raph Frank <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Raph Frank <***@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
> To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
> Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
> Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 7:59 PM
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Juho Laatu
> <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > One could e.g. force supporters of the
> "eliminated" candidates to approve more than one
> candidate (at least one of the "remaining"
> candidates) (instead of just bullet voting their second
> preference). On possible way to terminate the algorithm
> would be to stop when someone has reached >50% approval
> level.
> >
> > Also in "non-instant" runoffs one could e.g.
> force the voters to approve at least one on the
> "remaining" candidates. (One could eliminate more
> than one candidate at different rounds.)
>
> That is kinda like Bucklin, though without the approval
> threshold
> changing in each round for all voters.
>
> The process could be
>
> 1) Each candidate is designated a strong candidate
> 2) Each ballot is considered to approve the highest ranked
> strong
> candidate and all candidates ranked higher.
> 3) If the most approved candidate has > 50%, then that
> candidate is elected.
> 4) Re-designated the least approved strong candidate a weak
> candidate
> and goto 2).

Yes, could go this way.

>
> It still suffers from centre squeeze effects, though.
>
> For example
>
> 45: A>B>C
> 9: B>A>C
> 46: C>B>A
>
> Round 1
>
> A: 45
> B: 9
> C: 46
>
> no winner, B designated 'weak'
>
> Round 2
>
> A: 54
> B: 9
> C: 41
>
> A wins.

How about continuing and allowing the C supporters to compromise and approve also B. (Just didn't use the 50% termination rule this time.) After this round B would win and there would be no more interest to compromise (all voters already either approve the to be winner or would approve it as a compromise).

>
> The method has potential strategic truncation incentives.
>
> If B voters bullet voted for B, the result would have been
>
> Round 2
>
> A: 46
> B: 9
> C: 41
>
> C designated 'weak'
>
> Round 3
>
> A: 46
> B: 55
> C: 41
>
> B wins
>
> Ofc, the other voters can use counter strategies.
>
> It might be worth adding a rule that if all candidates on
> a ballot
> are weak, the ballot counts as approving everyone.

Yes, short ballots like "B" would be seen as "B>A=C". The unlisted A and C candidates are at shared last position. B supporters are not allowed to refuse to compromise after B is declared "weak", so they have to approve both A and C.

Juho





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Raph Frank
2008-11-11 11:21:03 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 11:59 PM, Juho Laatu <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> --- On Mon, 10/11/08, Raph Frank <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Raph Frank <***@gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
>> To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
>> Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
>> Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 7:59 PM
>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Juho Laatu
>> <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> > One could e.g. force supporters of the
>> "eliminated" candidates to approve more than one
>> candidate (at least one of the "remaining"
>> candidates) (instead of just bullet voting their second
>> preference). On possible way to terminate the algorithm
>> would be to stop when someone has reached >50% approval
>> level.
>> >
>> > Also in "non-instant" runoffs one could e.g.
>> force the voters to approve at least one on the
>> "remaining" candidates. (One could eliminate more
>> than one candidate at different rounds.)
>>
>> That is kinda like Bucklin, though without the approval
>> threshold
>> changing in each round for all voters.
>>
>> The process could be
>>
>> 1) Each candidate is designated a strong candidate
>> 2) Each ballot is considered to approve the highest ranked
>> strong
>> candidate and all candidates ranked higher.
>> 3) If the most approved candidate has > 50%, then that
>> candidate is elected.
>> 4) Re-designated the least approved strong candidate a weak
>> candidate
>> and goto 2).
>
> Yes, could go this way.
>
>>
>> It still suffers from centre squeeze effects, though.
>>
>> For example
>>
>> 45: A>B>C
>> 9: B>A>C
>> 46: C>B>A
>>
>> Round 1
>>
>> A: 45
>> B: 9
>> C: 46
>>
>> no winner, B designated 'weak'
>>
>> Round 2
>>
>> A: 54
>> B: 9
>> C: 41
>>
>> A wins.
>
> How about continuing and allowing the C supporters to compromise and approve also B. (Just didn't use the 50% termination rule this time.) After this round B would win and there would be no more interest to compromise (all voters already either approve the to be winner or would approve it as a compromise).

If you just keep keep declaring candidates as 'weak' until all
candidates are weak, then it is basically approval voting.

Once someone passes 50%, that candidate is declared as the potential
winner. All ballots are then considered to also approve candidates
that they prefer to the potential winner.

So,

45: A>B>C
Approves A (as highest strong candidate)

9: B>A>C
Approves A (as highest strong candidate)
Approves B (as weak candidate)

46: C>B>A
Approves C (as highest strong)
Approves B (as preferred to potential winner)

A: 54
B: 55
C: 46

Ofc, it might just be easier to just pick the condorcet winner :),
though I am not sure that the above method would always elect the
condorcet winner.
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Juho Laatu
2008-11-11 22:18:47 UTC
Permalink
Right, the method is not Condorcet compliant.

40 A>B>C
25 B>A>C
35 C>B>A

B supporters must compromise first and approve also A. Next C supporters must approve also B (maybe approving additionally only B at this round is enough although B is a weak candidate now). A wins although B is the Condorcet winner.

(The rule that I used was something like "those voters whose most approved candidate among those candidates that they approve is least approved must approve one more candidate (or multiple if ranked equal) except if that would mean approving the most approved candidate".)

Juho


--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Raph Frank <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Raph Frank <***@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
> To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
> Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 1:21 PM
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 11:59 PM, Juho Laatu
> <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > --- On Mon, 10/11/08, Raph Frank
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Raph Frank <***@gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
> >> To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
> >> Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
> >> Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 7:59 PM
> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Juho Laatu
> >> <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> > One could e.g. force supporters of the
> >> "eliminated" candidates to approve more
> than one
> >> candidate (at least one of the
> "remaining"
> >> candidates) (instead of just bullet voting their
> second
> >> preference). On possible way to terminate the
> algorithm
> >> would be to stop when someone has reached >50%
> approval
> >> level.
> >> >
> >> > Also in "non-instant" runoffs one
> could e.g.
> >> force the voters to approve at least one on the
> >> "remaining" candidates. (One could
> eliminate more
> >> than one candidate at different rounds.)
> >>
> >> That is kinda like Bucklin, though without the
> approval
> >> threshold
> >> changing in each round for all voters.
> >>
> >> The process could be
> >>
> >> 1) Each candidate is designated a strong candidate
> >> 2) Each ballot is considered to approve the
> highest ranked
> >> strong
> >> candidate and all candidates ranked higher.
> >> 3) If the most approved candidate has > 50%,
> then that
> >> candidate is elected.
> >> 4) Re-designated the least approved strong
> candidate a weak
> >> candidate
> >> and goto 2).
> >
> > Yes, could go this way.
> >
> >>
> >> It still suffers from centre squeeze effects,
> though.
> >>
> >> For example
> >>
> >> 45: A>B>C
> >> 9: B>A>C
> >> 46: C>B>A
> >>
> >> Round 1
> >>
> >> A: 45
> >> B: 9
> >> C: 46
> >>
> >> no winner, B designated 'weak'
> >>
> >> Round 2
> >>
> >> A: 54
> >> B: 9
> >> C: 41
> >>
> >> A wins.
> >
> > How about continuing and allowing the C supporters to
> compromise and approve also B. (Just didn't use the 50%
> termination rule this time.) After this round B would win
> and there would be no more interest to compromise (all
> voters already either approve the to be winner or would
> approve it as a compromise).
>
> If you just keep keep declaring candidates as
> 'weak' until all
> candidates are weak, then it is basically approval voting.
>
> Once someone passes 50%, that candidate is declared as the
> potential
> winner. All ballots are then considered to also approve
> candidates
> that they prefer to the potential winner.
>
> So,
>
> 45: A>B>C
> Approves A (as highest strong candidate)
>
> 9: B>A>C
> Approves A (as highest strong candidate)
> Approves B (as weak candidate)
>
> 46: C>B>A
> Approves C (as highest strong)
> Approves B (as preferred to potential winner)
>
> A: 54
> B: 55
> C: 46
>
> Ofc, it might just be easier to just pick the condorcet
> winner :),
> though I am not sure that the above method would always
> elect the
> condorcet winner.



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Kristofer Munsterhjelm
2008-11-11 18:50:53 UTC
Permalink
Raph Frank wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Juho Laatu <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> One could e.g. force supporters of the "eliminated" candidates to approve more than one candidate (at least one of the "remaining" candidates) (instead of just bullet voting their second preference). On possible way to terminate the algorithm would be to stop when someone has reached >50% approval level.
>>
>> Also in "non-instant" runoffs one could e.g. force the voters to approve at least one on the "remaining" candidates. (One could eliminate more than one candidate at different rounds.)
>
> That is kinda like Bucklin, though without the approval threshold
> changing in each round for all voters.
>
If you're going to have an advanced runoff method, why not do something
explicitly more Condorcetian? Perhaps something like:

Determine the Schwartz set. If it is singular, the candidate wins,
otherwise: the two highest ranked members of the Schwartz set, according
to some Condorcet rule, advance to the runoff.

Another option would be to use D'Hondt without lists, based on a good
Condorcet method, to elect the two candidates for the runoff. But that's
too complex, I think.
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Juho Laatu
2008-11-11 22:19:09 UTC
Permalink
Is Schwartz set specifically "Condorcetian"? Also methods like minmax could be said to be strongly "Condorcetian" (although they do not necessarily elect from the Schwartz/Smith sets).

Also party lists could be used. One approach to breaking cycles and identifying clone sets would be to not to count the votes of fellow party members against the candidates (not before all candidates of the competing parties/branches have been eliminated). How did you use D'Hondt without parties?

Sorry about making only "opposite proposals" :-). Schwartz and partyless approaches may be ok too. And use of some sequential approach to break a Condorcet cycle as well.

Juho


--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Kristofer Munsterhjelm <km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:

> From: Kristofer Munsterhjelm <km-***@broadpark.no>
> Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
> To: "Raph Frank" <***@gmail.com>
> Cc: ***@yahoo.co.uk, election-***@lists.electorama.com
> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 8:50 PM
> Raph Frank wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Juho Laatu
> <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> One could e.g. force supporters of the
> "eliminated" candidates to approve more than one
> candidate (at least one of the "remaining"
> candidates) (instead of just bullet voting their second
> preference). On possible way to terminate the algorithm
> would be to stop when someone has reached >50% approval
> level.
> >>
> >> Also in "non-instant" runoffs one could
> e.g. force the voters to approve at least one on the
> "remaining" candidates. (One could eliminate more
> than one candidate at different rounds.)
> >
> > That is kinda like Bucklin, though without the
> approval threshold
> > changing in each round for all voters.
> >
> If you're going to have an advanced runoff method, why
> not do something explicitly more Condorcetian? Perhaps
> something like:
>
> Determine the Schwartz set. If it is singular, the
> candidate wins,
> otherwise: the two highest ranked members of the Schwartz
> set, according to some Condorcet rule, advance to the
> runoff.
>
> Another option would be to use D'Hondt without lists,
> based on a good Condorcet method, to elect the two
> candidates for the runoff. But that's too complex, I
> think.



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Kristofer Munsterhjelm
2008-11-12 01:01:37 UTC
Permalink
Juho Laatu wrote:
> Is Schwartz set specifically "Condorcetian"? Also methods like minmax
> could be said to be strongly "Condorcetian" (although they do not
> necessarily elect from the Schwartz/Smith sets).

Schwartz is Condorcet-like because a CW will always be in the Schwartz
set, and Smith (and Schwartz) is a reasonable extension of the Condorcet
criterion (from "a candidate who is preferred to all others should win"
to "of a group where the group is preferred to all outside the group, a
group member should win"). Minmax is Condorcet yet not Schwartz, but
anything that's Schwartz is also Condorcet.

> Also party lists could be used. One approach to breaking cycles and
> identifying clone sets would be to not to count the votes of fellow
> party members against the candidates (not before all candidates of
> the competing parties/branches have been eliminated). How did you use
> D'Hondt without parties?

I used the Condorcet idea. First iteration: elect as for a single winner
(this includes the legitimate single winner so that a runoff never hurts
him). Second iteration: count ballots as usual, but all preferences
below the winner of the first iteration count half. So, for instance,

A > B > C > D
with B as first iteration winner
counts C > D as 0.5 victory of C over D.

Then generate a social ordering based on the new matrix, eliminate the
winner of the first iteration from that ordering, and pick whoever won
as the winner of the second iteration. The winners from each iteration
go to the runoff.

The full method is given somewhere in the archive, just search for
"D'Hondt without lists"; but for runoffs, there are just two iterations,
so it's as simple as this (I think; it's late and so I may have made an
error).

If you're going to use party list, I don't see much point in a runoff.
Either it'll be multiwinner, in which case a runoff doesn't make much
sense, or it'll be single-winner, in which case you can just use the
equivalent single-winner method. For ordinary party list, that method
would be Plurality; instead of voting for a party, vote for the party's
designated "appointee".

> Sorry about making only "opposite proposals" :-). Schwartz and
> partyless approaches may be ok too. And use of some sequential
> approach to break a Condorcet cycle as well.

What kind of sequential approaches were you thinking of?
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Juho Laatu
2008-11-12 17:10:50 UTC
Permalink
--- On Wed, 12/11/08, Kristofer Munsterhjelm <km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:

> From: Kristofer Munsterhjelm <km-***@broadpark.no>
> Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
> To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
> Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
> Date: Wednesday, 12 November, 2008, 3:01 AM
> Juho Laatu wrote:
> > Is Schwartz set specifically "Condorcetian"?
> Also methods like minmax
> > could be said to be strongly "Condorcetian"
> (although they do not
> > necessarily elect from the Schwartz/Smith sets).
>
> Schwartz is Condorcet-like because a CW will always be in
> the Schwartz set, and Smith (and Schwartz) is a reasonable
> extension of the Condorcet criterion (from "a candidate
> who is preferred to all others should win" to "of
> a group where the group is preferred to all outside the
> group, a group member should win"). Minmax is Condorcet
> yet not Schwartz, but anything that's Schwartz is also
> Condorcet.


Clones of members of the Smith set (I'll ignore ties in this mail) are in the Smith set but Smith set members need not be clones. The Smith set is thus not a (unified) group of clones (but just a group of candidates that happen to best all the others in a pairwise comparison).

There are also other potential "reasonable extensions" of the Condorcet criterion. One interesting question is if it is more important for the elected candidate to have weak opposition or to have a narrow opposition.

(Beatpaths may be considered a "winner evaluation criterion" too - although their meaning in real life situations is not clear - maybe they are used just to identify clones in some approximate way rather than describe the value of the to be winner.)

One basic example.
17: A>B>D>C
16: A>D>B>C
17: B>C>D>A
16: B>D>C>A
17: C>A>D>B
16: C>D>A>B
A, B and C are in a strong loop. A, B and C form the Smith set but they are not clones. Each of them is beaten badly by another member of the loop. D loses to all the Smith set members, but only with a very narrow margin.

One could say that D is the most acceptable choice, and that electing the candidate with weakest opposition (against any single one of the other candidates) is a natural extension of the Condorcet criterion.

(D is the Condorcet loser but it is also very close to being the Condorcet winner. The visual impression of "being below the top three" positions D somewhere deep down at the bottom of the picture and at the end of the preference list, but obviously such 2D visualization does not describe the cyclic relations in the best way.)


>
> > Also party lists could be used. One approach to
> breaking cycles and
> > identifying clone sets would be to not to count the
> votes of fellow
> > party members against the candidates (not before all
> candidates of
> > the competing parties/branches have been eliminated).
> How did you use
> > D'Hondt without parties?
>
> I used the Condorcet idea. First iteration: elect as for a
> single winner (this includes the legitimate single winner so
> that a runoff never hurts him). Second iteration: count
> ballots as usual, but all preferences below the winner of
> the first iteration count half. So, for instance,
>
> A > B > C > D
> with B as first iteration winner
> counts C > D as 0.5 victory of C over D.
>
> Then generate a social ordering based on the new matrix,
> eliminate the winner of the first iteration from that
> ordering, and pick whoever won as the winner of the second
> iteration. The winners from each iteration go to the runoff.
>
> The full method is given somewhere in the archive, just
> search for "D'Hondt without lists"; but for
> runoffs, there are just two iterations, so it's as
> simple as this (I think; it's late and so I may have
> made an error).
>
> If you're going to use party list, I don't see much
> point in a runoff. Either it'll be multiwinner, in which
> case a runoff doesn't make much sense, or it'll be
> single-winner, in which case you can just use the equivalent
> single-winner method. For ordinary party list, that method
> would be Plurality; instead of voting for a party, vote for
> the party's designated "appointee".


I was thinking of single winner elections only.

The party lists could be more interesting when breaking Condorcet cycles. But in a runoff one could first vote between parties and only then between candidates of the winning party. I'm not sure that this is very useful, but this way one could e.g. reduce the risk of the best compromise candidate of a party being eliminated too early.

For example
40: A1>A2>B>C
08: A2>A1>B>C
07: A2>B>A1>C
25: B>A2>C>A1
20: C>B>A2>A1
A2 would be eliminated first in IRV but here A1 and A2 form a party (with 55 first preference votes) and therefore C will be eliminated first, B next, and then A2 will win.


>
> > Sorry about making only "opposite proposals"
> :-). Schwartz and
> > partyless approaches may be ok too. And use of some
> sequential
> > approach to break a Condorcet cycle as well.
>
> What kind of sequential approaches were you thinking of?


Just some quite traditional ones like IRV.

Juho





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Kristofer Munsterhjelm
2008-11-13 14:39:40 UTC
Permalink
Juho Laatu wrote:
> --- On Wed, 12/11/08, Kristofer Munsterhjelm <km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:
>> Schwartz is Condorcet-like because a CW will always be in
>> the Schwartz set, and Smith (and Schwartz) is a reasonable
>> extension of the Condorcet criterion (from "a candidate
>> who is preferred to all others should win" to "of
>> a group where the group is preferred to all outside the
>> group, a group member should win"). Minmax is Condorcet
>> yet not Schwartz, but anything that's Schwartz is also
>> Condorcet.
>
>
> Clones of members of the Smith set (I'll ignore ties in this mail)
> are in the Smith set but Smith set members need not be clones. The Smith set
> is thus not a (unified) group of clones (but just a group of candidates
> that happen to best all the others in a pairwise comparison).

> There are also other potential "reasonable extensions" of the
> Condorcet criterion. One interesting question is if it is more important
> for the elected candidate to have weak opposition or to have a narrow
> opposition.
>
> (Beatpaths may be considered a "winner evaluation criterion" too -
> although their meaning in real life situations is not clear - maybe they
> are used just to identify clones in some approximate way rather than
> describe the value of the to be winner.)

> One basic example.
> 17: A>B>D>C
> 16: A>D>B>C
> 17: B>C>D>A
> 16: B>D>C>A
> 17: C>A>D>B
> 16: C>D>A>B
> A, B and C are in a strong loop. A, B and C form the Smith set but
> they are not clones. Each of them is beaten badly by another member of
> the loop. D loses to all the Smith set members, but only with a very
> narrow margin.
>
> One could say that D is the most acceptable choice, and that electing
> the candidate with weakest opposition (against any single one of the
> other candidates) is a natural extension of the Condorcet criterion.
>
> (D is the Condorcet loser but it is also very close to being the
> Condorcet winner. The visual impression of "being below the top three"
> positions D somewhere deep down at the bottom of the picture and at the
> end of the preference list, but obviously such 2D visualization does not
> describe the cyclic relations in the best way.)

I think that in order to get anywhere on this path, we would have to
know what it is we actually want from a runoff. There are two reasons
why you might have a runoff: the honest, that voters can discuss which
of the two candidates are better without having to consider the others,
and the strategic, arising from that in a runoff that has only two
candidates, the optimum strategy is honesty (if we consider the runoff
one election, not half an election).

I'm going to skip past the strategic reason for now, but I'll note that
earlier I mentioned some ideas regarding that, with two election methods
being run in parallel (one resistant to strategy and one vulnerable),
the winner of each going to the runoff; this could even work if one
method is vulnerable to a different strategy than the other.

For honesty, then, we have to know which are the two best candidates.
This sounds like a proportional representation problem with a "council"
of two; however, such methods cannot be invulnerable to cloning, since
the Droop proportionality criterion and clone independence contradict
each other (by http://www.mcdougall.org.uk/VM/ISSUE3/P5.HTM ,
"clone-no-harm").

Also, if we want to retain the properties of the first-round election
system, and that election system is Condorcet, then one of the
candidates in the runoff must be the CW (when it exists). I would go
further and say that there's no need for a runoff if there's a CW, but
others may disagree. In any event, if the first round method is Smith or
Schwartz, or more generally picks from a well defined subset of the
candidates, then one of the candidates of the second round must be from
that set as well. The former destroys any chance of passing the DPC,
since Droop proportionality is incompatible with Condorcet (by example
given in the Voting Matters article linked to above).

It seems difficult to consider a consistent way of picking the other
candidate, given this. Consider opinions on a line, where the centrist
at 0.5 is the CW, and assume that runoffs will be held even when there's
a CW. Then where should you put the other candidate? Not to the right,
because that would be biased against the left-leaning voters. Not to the
left, because that would be biased against the right-leaning voters. So
it must be another centrist, a clone. But what choice is that?

However, that may work only as an argument against "runoffs should be
held even when there's a Condorcet winner". To my knowledge, on a
political line and with honest voters that prefer candidates closer to
them to those farther away, there'll always be a Condorcet winner. That
means we'll have to consider opinion spaces in greater than one dimension.

Call the candidate that's retained from the first round to pass
criteria, the retained candidate. Perhaps we could then say that if the
retained candidate is off-center in n-space, then the right thing would
be to pick the viable candidate closest to its antipode (reversed
coordinates) as the other candidate. But what's a viable candidate? Is
it viable if in Smith (or mutual majority, or whatnot)? Is it unviable
if it isn't? We need the viable qualifier to keep the runoff method from
picking an unpopular candidate simply to provide "opposition", e.g
picking a lone right-wing authoritarian to "oppose" the retained
left-wing libertarian in a society of (mostly) left-libertarians.

>> If you're going to use party list, I don't see much
>> point in a runoff. Either it'll be multiwinner, in which
>> case a runoff doesn't make much sense, or it'll be
>> single-winner, in which case you can just use the equivalent
>> single-winner method. For ordinary party list, that method
>> would be Plurality; instead of voting for a party, vote for
>> the party's designated "appointee".
>
>
> I was thinking of single winner elections only.
>
> The party lists could be more interesting when breaking Condorcet
> cycles. But in a runoff one could first vote between parties and only
> then between candidates of the winning party. I'm not sure that this is
> very useful, but this way one could e.g. reduce the risk of the best
> compromise candidate of a party being eliminated too early.
>
> For example
> 40: A1>A2>B>C
> 08: A2>A1>B>C
> 07: A2>B>A1>C
> 25: B>A2>C>A1
> 20: C>B>A2>A1
> A2 would be eliminated first in IRV but here A1 and A2 form a party
> (with 55 first preference votes) and therefore C will be eliminated
> first, B next, and then A2 will win.

This seems to be more of a problem with IRV, and so I'd say that a
better solution would be to switch to another voting system rather than
try to patch it up with party lists.

If you want to use party lists, you could add dynamics by doing it this
way: First, voters vote for parties. Then start the compromise rounds:
in a round, each party provides the name of its appointed candidate (or
"I support the candidate of party X in the last round", if party X
provided its own candidate in that round). This may be done sequentially
in a random fashion or by popularity or some complex device. After n
rounds, each party contributes [number of voters for that party] points
to either the candidate it supported in round n-1, or to the candidate
the party it supported in round n supported in round n-1. Highest score
wins. That would be a kind of sequential Asset. The question is whether
the dynamics would be good.
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Raph Frank
2008-11-13 15:04:08 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:39 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm
<km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:
> For honesty, then, we have to know which are the two best candidates. This
> sounds like a proportional representation problem with a "council" of two;
> however, such methods cannot be invulnerable to cloning, since the Droop
> proportionality criterion and clone independence contradict each other (by
> http://www.mcdougall.org.uk/VM/ISSUE3/P5.HTM , "clone-no-harm").

I disagree, a PR method is not what you want here. If the best
candidate is cloned, then both clones should be picked as the top-2.

This will not happen with PR. In the linear policy case, the best
candidate is at the 50% mark. PR will likely elect candidates at the
33% and 67% marks. Neither of those candidates is optimal.

In fact, I think that picking one of the 2 would be give roughly the
same result as the plurality system.

> Also, if we want to retain the properties of the first-round election
> system, and that election system is Condorcet, then one of the candidates in
> the runoff must be the CW (when it exists). I would go further and say that
> there's no need for a runoff if there's a CW, but others may disagree.

In a condorcet election, the top 2 candidates would be at the 50% mark
in the 1d policy space.

The runoff would held the voters decide from 2 pretty good candidates.

> The former
> destroys any chance of passing the DPC, since Droop proportionality is
> incompatible with Condorcet (by example given in the Voting Matters article
> linked to above).

I don't see why you want them picked by a PR method, the idea
shouldn't be to pick 2 candidates who each represent half of the
community, it should be to pick 2 that represent the whole community,

> Then where should you put the other candidate? Not to the right, because
> that would be biased against the left-leaning voters. Not to the left,
> because that would be biased against the right-leaning voters. So it must be
> another centrist, a clone. But what choice is that?

It is a choice. First, there are more than 1 dimension in politics
and second, even if there wasn't it allows the voters pick the most
capable of the 2 candidates who both have similar policy views.

> Call the candidate that's retained from the first round to pass criteria,
> the retained candidate. Perhaps we could then say that if the retained
> candidate is off-center in n-space, then the right thing would be to pick
> the viable candidate closest to its antipode (reversed coordinates) as the
> other candidate. But what's a viable candidate?

You could deweight the votes that voted for the first winner. This
would shift the winning point away from the centre.

>> 40: A1>A2>B>C
>> 08: A2>A1>B>C
>> 07: A2>B>A1>C
>> 25: B>A2>C>A1
>> 20: C>B>A2>A1
>> A2 would be eliminated first in IRV but here A1 and A2 form a party
>> (with 55 first preference votes) and therefore C will be eliminated
>> first, B next, and then A2 will win.
>
> This seems to be more of a problem with IRV, and so I'd say that a better
> solution would be to switch to another voting system rather than try to
> patch it up with party lists.

Also, the A2>B>A1 voters cannot be considered members of the A party.
This highlights a problem with the party list system, it assumes
voters are rock solid supporters of their first choice's party.
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Kristofer Munsterhjelm
2008-11-14 08:56:27 UTC
Permalink
Raph Frank wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:39 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm
> <km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:
>> For honesty, then, we have to know which are the two best candidates. This
>> sounds like a proportional representation problem with a "council" of two;
>> however, such methods cannot be invulnerable to cloning, since the Droop
>> proportionality criterion and clone independence contradict each other (by
>> http://www.mcdougall.org.uk/VM/ISSUE3/P5.HTM , "clone-no-harm").
>
> I disagree, a PR method is not what you want here. If the best
> candidate is cloned, then both clones should be picked as the top-2.
>
> This will not happen with PR. In the linear policy case, the best
> candidate is at the 50% mark. PR will likely elect candidates at the
> 33% and 67% marks. Neither of those candidates is optimal.
>
> In fact, I think that picking one of the 2 would be give roughly the
> same result as the plurality system.

I might have been too vague. What I meant was that it sounds like a
proportional representation problem at first, but then (as I show
afterwards), turns out not to be so, since we can't satisfy the DPC
(which PR methods should have) and the various good single-winner
criteria at the same time.

It might seem like a PR problem since one would intuitively think that
the runoff candidates should in concert cover as much of the opinion
space as possible.

>> Also, if we want to retain the properties of the first-round election
>> system, and that election system is Condorcet, then one of the candidates in
>> the runoff must be the CW (when it exists). I would go further and say that
>> there's no need for a runoff if there's a CW, but others may disagree.
>
> In a condorcet election, the top 2 candidates would be at the 50% mark
> in the 1d policy space.
>
> The runoff would held the voters decide from 2 pretty good candidates.

This does mean that a party can crowd out its competitors by running two
candidates of the exact same position. On the other hand, that may be
what you want, since one could reason that this brings a competition of
quality to the center position, where the two best centrists would be
picked for the runoff. That doesn't give the people much to discuss
between the first and second rounds, though, since the candidates'
position would be identical.

In any case, if that's what you want, then picking the candidates for a
runoff should be easy. First round, use a method like Schulze to get a
social ordering. Pick the first and second place candidates on that
social ordering for the second round.

>> The former
>> destroys any chance of passing the DPC, since Droop proportionality is
>> incompatible with Condorcet (by example given in the Voting Matters article
>> linked to above).
>
> I don't see why you want them picked by a PR method, the idea
> shouldn't be to pick 2 candidates who each represent half of the
> community, it should be to pick 2 that represent the whole community,

It's a reasonable first guess to imagine using a PR method, but it
doesn't work. See above.

>> Call the candidate that's retained from the first round to pass criteria,
>> the retained candidate. Perhaps we could then say that if the retained
>> candidate is off-center in n-space, then the right thing would be to pick
>> the viable candidate closest to its antipode (reversed coordinates) as the
>> other candidate. But what's a viable candidate?
>
> You could deweight the votes that voted for the first winner. This
> would shift the winning point away from the centre.

That's what D'Hondt without lists does; or rather, it deweights those
preferences that are lower than the winner of the first round, since the
voters already "got what they wanted" on a higher preference. (Of
course, I would use Sainte-Laguë instead of D'Hondt, but that's an
implementation detail.)
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Raph Frank
2008-11-14 10:54:52 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm
<km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:
> This does mean that a party can crowd out its competitors by running two
> candidates of the exact same position. On the other hand, that may be what
> you want, since one could reason that this brings a competition of quality
> to the center position, where the two best centrists would be picked for the
> runoff. That doesn't give the people much to discuss between the first and
> second rounds, though, since the candidates' position would be identical.

Their positions would likely be similar but not identical, especially
in a multi dimensional political space.

The campaign would come down to questions of capability as a
representative and small policy differences.

One possible issue would be a small turnout at the second round. This
might encourage them to appeal to extremists.


> First round, use a method like Schulze to get a
> social ordering. Pick the first and second place candidates on that social
> ordering for the second round.

Right, that is what I was thinking. With any condorcet method, you
could just say pick the winner and then pick the winner excluding the
first winner, but I think most condorcet completion methods generate a
complete ordering.

Another option would be to pick the 2 most approved candidates for the
2nd round.
> It's a reasonable first guess to imagine using a PR method, but it doesn't
> work. See above.

Yeah, we agree.

> That's what D'Hondt without lists does; or rather, it deweights those
> preferences that are lower than the winner of the first round, since the
> voters already "got what they wanted" on a higher preference. (Of course, I
> would use Sainte-Laguë instead of D'Hondt, but that's an implementation
> detail.)

Interesting.

The process is that you vote for your top choice that is still in the
running but it is deweighted by the number of higher choices who have
already been elected?

A vote of A>B>C would vote for C if A and B were elected at a weight
of 1/5 strength (assuming Sainte-Lague)?

How are eliminations handled?
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Kristofer Munsterhjelm
2008-11-14 15:51:35 UTC
Permalink
Raph Frank wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm
> <km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:
>> This does mean that a party can crowd out its competitors by running two
>> candidates of the exact same position. On the other hand, that may be what
>> you want, since one could reason that this brings a competition of quality
>> to the center position, where the two best centrists would be picked for the
>> runoff. That doesn't give the people much to discuss between the first and
>> second rounds, though, since the candidates' position would be identical.
>
> Their positions would likely be similar but not identical, especially
> in a multi dimensional political space.
>
> The campaign would come down to questions of capability as a
> representative and small policy differences.
>
> One possible issue would be a small turnout at the second round. This
> might encourage them to appeal to extremists.

This, in turn, may cause the runoff to have Range-like effects. Say that
the runoff is held with two centrists as the candidates. Then voters who
feels the same way about both candidates may not bother to show up, even
though they prefer one candidate to the other.

If that effect is too prevalent, it could be confused for an apathetic
populace.

>> First round, use a method like Schulze to get a
>> social ordering. Pick the first and second place candidates on that social
>> ordering for the second round.
>
> Right, that is what I was thinking. With any condorcet method, you
> could just say pick the winner and then pick the winner excluding the
> first winner, but I think most condorcet completion methods generate a
> complete ordering.

I mention a complete ordering since some methods may act differently if
you eliminate the winner (particularly if they're nonmonotonic). Using
the complete ordering seems more sensible in that case.

> Another option would be to pick the 2 most approved candidates for the
> 2nd round.

Then you'd need an approval cutoff, or plain Approval. I think Approval
would satisfy IIA if you use a constant strategy (compare all candidates
to an objective standard and approve those better than that standard),
but since the best Approval strategies are relative, there may still be
a point in an Approval runoff.

>> That's what D'Hondt without lists does; or rather, it deweights those
>> preferences that are lower than the winner of the first round, since the
>> voters already "got what they wanted" on a higher preference. (Of course, I
>> would use Sainte-Laguë instead of D'Hondt, but that's an implementation
>> detail.)
>
> Interesting.
>
> The process is that you vote for your top choice that is still in the
> running but it is deweighted by the number of higher choices who have
> already been elected?
>
> A vote of A>B>C would vote for C if A and B were elected at a weight
> of 1/5 strength (assuming Sainte-Lague)?
>
> How are eliminations handled?

To paraphrase from the post
(http://www.mail-archive.com/election-methods-***@eskimo.com/msg08230.html
), D'Hondt without lists has this rule:

Downweight any preferences where both candidates compared are ranked
below k elected candidates, by f(k).

For D'Hondt, f(x) is 1/(x+1), or [1; 1/2; 1/3, ...], counting from 0. In
the case of Sainte-Laguë, f(x) is 1/(2x + 1), or [1; 1/3; 1/5, ...].

So in your A>B>C case, B>C would have weight 1/3. If you had A>B>C>D,
then C>D would have weight 1/5.

Eliminations are handled by removing already elected candidates from the
ordering. For instance, if A's elected and the result for the second
round is A > B > C > D, A is removed to make B > C > D, and B is
elected. This limits IIA oddness.
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Raph Frank
2008-11-14 16:10:58 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm
<km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:
> To paraphrase from the post
> (http://www.mail-archive.com/election-methods-***@eskimo.com/msg08230.html
> ), D'Hondt without lists has this rule:
>

Ahh, I see, you keep electing the condorcet winner but the decreasing
weight for lower preferences means that a ballot that has had its top
choice elected has less effect.

I assume it meets the Droop rule?
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Kristofer Munsterhjelm
2008-11-15 07:28:33 UTC
Permalink
Raph Frank wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm
> <km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:
>> To paraphrase from the post
>> (http://www.mail-archive.com/election-methods-***@eskimo.com/msg08230.html
>> ), D'Hondt without lists has this rule:
>>
>
> Ahh, I see, you keep electing the condorcet winner but the decreasing
> weight for lower preferences means that a ballot that has had its top
> choice elected has less effect.
>
> I assume it meets the Droop rule?

If you mean the Droop proportionality criterion: no, it doesn't. Since
no reweighting is done in the first round, it elects the Condorcet
winner then, and that's incompatible with the DPC.
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Kristofer Munsterhjelm
2008-11-15 15:45:07 UTC
Permalink
Raph Frank wrote:
>> If you mean the Droop proportionality criterion: no, it doesn't. Since no
>> reweighting is done in the first round, it elects the Condorcet winner then,
>> and that's incompatible with the DPC.
>
> What about running the process for double the number of steps as there
> are seats.
>
> If there are 5 seats, then the first 4 rounds would be 'setup' rounds.
>
> Assuming the winners in each round is A, B, C ..., then the election
> would proceed as
>
> Setup stage
> Round 1: A
> Round 2: AB
> Round 3: ABC
> Round 4: ABCD
>
> Election stage
> Round 5:
> E elected: ABCDE
>
> Round 6:
> A eliminated and then F elected:
> Winners: BCDEF
>
> Round 7:
> B eliminated and then G elected
> Winners: CDEFG
>
> Round 8:
> C eliminated and then H elected
> Winners: DEFGH
>
> Round 9:
> D eliminated and then I elected
> Winners: EFGHI

> Note: a candidate may be referred to by more than 1 letter. A
> candidate might be eliminated in round 6 but then re-elected in round
> 8, so that candidate is both A and H.
>
> I wonder if it can be shown that if there is at least one solid
> coalition with a) a Droop quota and b) none of them elected, then
> they one of them is guaranteed to get elected for the final. If that
> was true, then each of the winners in rounds 5-9 would meet the
> criteron. Effectively, if a candidate who is part of a solid
> coalition is eliminated, he would be reelected immediately, or
> replaced by another candidate who also meets the criteron.

I don't think so. Though I haven't investigated this method, I'm
thinking that since it uses a divisor method (Sainte-Laguë), there would
be instances where it breaks quota, just like ordinary Sainte-Laguë
breaks quota, since quota (no candidate or party should need more than a
quota worth of votes to get a seat, or get a seat with less than a
quota's worth) is incompatible with the two criteria Sainte-Laguë meets
(population pair and house monotonicity).

On the other hand, quota violations are very rare in ordinary
Sainte-Laguë/Webster, so it might not matter. Yet it does seem to matter
when we port divisor methods directly to single-winner methods (e.g
RRV), as quota methods outperform them in my simulations.


Perhaps there's a multiwinner analog of the Condorcet criterion. If so,
we would have a base on which to construct a method instead of having to
guess blindly. Perhaps something like "if the method, when electing k
winners, returns the set X, and there is a way of partitioning the
ballots into k piles so that each pile has a CW, and each CW is in X,
then the method passes this criterion".
Or, is there something that is to the Droop proportionality criterion as
the Smith criterion is to mutual majority?

None of this is really applicable to the runoff (since we don't want DPC
there), but since we were discussing methods that do meet the DPC, my
mind wanders :-)

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Raph Frank
2008-11-15 18:12:49 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm
<km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:
> I don't think so. Though I haven't investigated this method, I'm thinking
> that since it uses a divisor method (Sainte-Laguë), there would be instances
> where it breaks quota, just like ordinary Sainte-Laguë breaks quota, since
> quota (no candidate or party should need more than a quota worth of votes to
> get a seat, or get a seat with less than a quota's worth) is incompatible
> with the two criteria Sainte-Laguë meets (population pair and house
> monotonicity).

Well, I was thinking if the proposal was used with d'Hondt.

> Perhaps something like "if the method, when electing k winners,
> returns the set X, and there is a way of partitioning the ballots into k
> piles so that each pile has a CW, and each CW is in X, then the method
> passes this criterion".
> Or, is there something that is to the Droop proportionality criterion as the
> Smith criterion is to mutual majority?

In the single winner case, Droop proportionality says that if a
majority ranks a group of candidates above all other candidates, then
one of those candidates will win. All methods that meet the condorcet
criterion would also meet the Droop proportionality criteron.
However, all single winner methods that meet the Droop proportionality
criterion don't necessarily meet the condorcet criterion. IRV being
an example that meets the Droop proportionality criterion but not meet
the condorcet criterion.

In that context, a multi-winner condorcet criterion would have to a
stricter requirement than merely meeting the Droop criterion and any
method that fails the Droop proportionality criterion would have to
fail it.
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Kristofer Munsterhjelm
2008-11-15 20:36:25 UTC
Permalink
Raph Frank wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm
> <km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:
>> I don't think so. Though I haven't investigated this method, I'm thinking
>> that since it uses a divisor method (Sainte-Laguë), there would be instances
>> where it breaks quota, just like ordinary Sainte-Laguë breaks quota, since
>> quota (no candidate or party should need more than a quota worth of votes to
>> get a seat, or get a seat with less than a quota's worth) is incompatible
>> with the two criteria Sainte-Laguë meets (population pair and house
>> monotonicity).
>
> Well, I was thinking if the proposal was used with d'Hondt.

D'Hondt is also a divisor method, and since divisor methods meet the two
monotonicity criteria, they are all incompatible with quota. To my
knowledge, only divisor methods meet both monotonicity criteria. I'm
unsure as to whether that is true for divisor methods on sets, like
Ossipoff's Cycle Webster method, but it doesn't seem to be the case for
Cycle Webster, at least.

>> Perhaps something like "if the method, when electing k winners,
>> returns the set X, and there is a way of partitioning the ballots into k
>> piles so that each pile has a CW, and each CW is in X, then the method
>> passes this criterion".
>> Or, is there something that is to the Droop proportionality criterion as the
>> Smith criterion is to mutual majority?
>
> In the single winner case, Droop proportionality says that if a
> majority ranks a group of candidates above all other candidates, then
> one of those candidates will win. All methods that meet the condorcet
> criterion would also meet the Droop proportionality criteron.
> However, all single winner methods that meet the Droop proportionality
> criterion don't necessarily meet the condorcet criterion. IRV being
> an example that meets the Droop proportionality criterion but not meet
> the condorcet criterion.

The single-winner criterion corresponding to the DPC is the mutual
majority criterion. Any method that's Smith also passes mutual majority,
and since Condorcet is just the case of the Smith set being a singleton,
any Condorcet method passes the criterion when there's a CW. When
there's not, a method may pass or fail; it passes if it's Smith, and it
may either if it's not. Minmax and Black both fail mutual majority, to
my knowledge. While I'm not familiar with which well known Condorcet
methods, if any, that pass mutual majority while not being Smith, it's
easy to make one: "CW if there is one, else IRV", for instance.

> In that context, a multi-winner condorcet criterion would have to a
> stricter requirement than merely meeting the Droop criterion and any
> method that fails the Droop proportionality criterion would have to
> fail it.

It may pass it yet fail DPC if the multi-winner Condorcet "winner"
(winner set?) is not present in all elections. If it elects the
multiwinner Condorcet candidates (and in that case passes the DPC) when
they exist, but fails DPC in all other cases, then it would fail DPC in
general. But if it's like the Smith set, in that it's a subset of the
Droop Proportionality set (mutual majority set in the case of
single-winner), then what you say is true.

If it's a subset of the DP set, then we know that it can't always be a
proper subset. Otherwise, there would be cases where there are no
eliminations in STV, so that any method that passes DPC must elect the
entire set; if the subset was a proper subset, it would the fail the
DPC, which is not desirable. But that's not so surprising, since it's
also the case with Smith (regarding the mutual majority set); just
produce ballots that all vote A > B > C and then a cycle among the other
candidates.

But what would this multi-winner Condorcet criterion be? That's the
question. One may also ask whether it's a desirable criterion (like
Condorcet), or if it's too strict (like Participation).
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Raph Frank
2008-11-16 01:14:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 8:36 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm
<km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:
> The single-winner criterion corresponding to the DPC is the mutual majority
> criterion. Any method that's Smith also passes mutual majority, and since
> Condorcet is just the case of the Smith set being a singleton, any Condorcet
> method passes the criterion when there's a CW.

Mutual majority looks the same as the Droop criterion, but for single
winner cases.

I wouldn't think much of a condorcet method that doesn't meet Smith,
but the two criteria aren't the same.

> But what would this multi-winner Condorcet criterion be? That's the
> question. One may also ask whether it's a desirable criterion (like
> Condorcet), or if it's too strict (like Participation).

If the objective is to find a multi-winner equivalent of the condorcet
criterion rather the Smith criterion, I am not so sure how useful that
is.

It would be a criterion that covers less cases than the Droop criterion.

Maybe

An outcome is not a valid outcome if there is any non-elected
candidate who is preferred to all the winning candidates by a Droop
quota of the voters. No invalid outcome may be used unless there are
no valid outcomes.

This would be similar to re-defining the condorcet criterion as

A candidate shall be deemed an invalid winner if a majority prefer any
other candidate to that candidate. An invalid candidate may not be
declared the winner unless there are no valid candidates.
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Kristofer Munsterhjelm
2008-11-17 14:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Raph Frank wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 8:36 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm
> <km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:
>> The single-winner criterion corresponding to the DPC is the mutual majority
>> criterion. Any method that's Smith also passes mutual majority, and since
>> Condorcet is just the case of the Smith set being a singleton, any Condorcet
>> method passes the criterion when there's a CW.
>
> Mutual majority looks the same as the Droop criterion, but for single
> winner cases.
>
> I wouldn't think much of a condorcet method that doesn't meet Smith,
> but the two criteria aren't the same.

Yes. Smith is a subset of mutual majority. The Condorcet winner is
always in Smith, so when there's a CW, it's in the mutual majority set.

>> But what would this multi-winner Condorcet criterion be? That's the
>> question. One may also ask whether it's a desirable criterion (like
>> Condorcet), or if it's too strict (like Participation).
>
> If the objective is to find a multi-winner equivalent of the condorcet
> criterion rather the Smith criterion, I am not so sure how useful that
> is.
>
> It would be a criterion that covers less cases than the Droop criterion.
>
> Maybe
>
> An outcome is not a valid outcome if there is any non-elected
> candidate who is preferred to all the winning candidates by a Droop
> quota of the voters. No invalid outcome may be used unless there are
> no valid outcomes.
>
> This would be similar to re-defining the condorcet criterion as
>
> A candidate shall be deemed an invalid winner if a majority prefer any
> other candidate to that candidate. An invalid candidate may not be
> declared the winner unless there are no valid candidates.

That rule would admit more sets than the DPC. Call the candidates that a
Droop quota supports above the others, "Droop CWs". Your criterion
basically says "if you're picking k winners, and there are at least k
Droop CWs, all the winners have to be Droop CWs; if there are less than
k Droop CWs, those have to be included in the winning set".

If there are Droop CWs, and also there's a subset that has to be
included as the winners, then those winners will be Droop CWs (similar
to how the Condorcet winner, when there is one, is in the Mutual
Majority set). However, if there's a single winner CW for the election
in question, that winner will also be a Droop CW. Similarly, if there's
a candidate that x voters prefer to all others, where x is larger than
the Droop quota, that candidate will also be a Droop CW.

I guess that shouldn't surprise us; since Condorcet doesn't imply Mutual
Majority, a multiwinner Condorcet criterion wouldn't imply the DPC
either. However, the failure mode is different. Condorcet fails MM only
when there's no CW (and the Condorcet criterion can't say which
candidate you should elect); however, this fails even when there are
Droop CWs (since we know Condorcet and the DPC is incompatible, and that
a Condorcet winner must also be a Droop CW).

So we may need a Smith set, and that set would have to be defined so
that electing from it implies DPC. I have no idea how it would actually
be defined, though.
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Raph Frank
2008-11-17 15:37:05 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm
<km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:
> That rule would admit more sets than the DPC. Call the candidates that a
> Droop quota supports above the others, "Droop CWs". Your criterion basically
> says "if you're picking k winners, and there are at least k Droop CWs, all
> the winners have to be Droop CWs; if there are less than k Droop CWs, those
> have to be included in the winning set".

I am not 100% sure that is equivalent to what I suggested, but seems reasonable.

> I guess that shouldn't surprise us; since Condorcet doesn't imply Mutual
> Majority, a multiwinner Condorcet criterion wouldn't imply the DPC either.
> However, the failure mode is different. Condorcet fails MM only when there's
> no CW (and the Condorcet criterion can't say which candidate you should
> elect); however, this fails even when there are Droop CWs (since we know
> Condorcet and the DPC is incompatible, and that a Condorcet winner must also
> be a Droop CW).

Well, it fails multi-winner condorcet when there isn't enough Droop
CWs. The difference in the single winner case is that only a single
winner is required.

> So we may need a Smith set, and that set would have to be defined so that
> electing from it implies DPC. I have no idea how it would actually be
> defined, though.

Maybe, base it on Copeland;

A candidate shall be deemed to defeat an outcome if he is preferred to
all winning candidates in the outcome by a Droop quota.

The final outcome must be one of the outcomes which ties for fewest defeats.
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Juho Laatu
2008-11-14 13:26:46 UTC
Permalink
--- On Fri, 14/11/08, Kristofer Munsterhjelm <km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:

> Raph Frank wrote:

> > In a condorcet election, the top 2 candidates would be
> at the 50% mark
> > in the 1d policy space.
> >
> > The runoff would held the voters decide from 2 pretty
> good candidates.
>
> This does mean that a party can crowd out its competitors
> by running two candidates of the exact same position. On the
> other hand, that may be what you want, since one could
> reason that this brings a competition of quality to the
> center position, where the two best centrists would be
> picked for the runoff. That doesn't give the people much
> to discuss between the first and second rounds, though,
> since the candidates' position would be identical.

Since the party doesn't know beforehand what exactly is the winning formula/candidate they should name candidates that differ from each others and cover the whole expected potential winning area.

If there is a final runoff between two leading candidates then one could nominate only identical twins as candidates to make sure that if one of the party candidates goes to the final runoff then also the other candidate will be from the same party. But it may be more efficient to spread one's (limited number of?) candidates in the opinion space more evenly and thereby try to guarantee that one has at least one candidate at the final round, and that one has a candidate close to the spot that represents the public opinion.

Another theme is that all candidates of all parties should position themselves in the area that is expected to represent the public opinion. Of course within the limits of maintaining credibility. It may also be clever to seek areas that are not too densely populated by other candidates yet.

The US presidential elections may serve as a good example. Obama will not say "I'm a Democrat, I want free abortion and high taxes". He should rather trust that he will get most of the Democrat votes anyway and focus on getting some Republican votes. In a 1d space (where Democrats cover 0%-50%) he may even present himself as being at the 55% mark. McCain on the other hand could present himself as a 45% mark candidate.

In addition Obama and McCain of course have to convince also the 0%-25% and the 75%-100% voters respectively well enough so that they will vote and not stay at home. But it is better to do that without too much publicity.

So, based on this discussion each party should first estimate the potential winning area, then populate that area well enough, and maybe also try to identify ideal spots within that territory (no competitors nearby at least on one side, can be reserved with one nice speech/slogan,...). If current candidates are D40%, D45%, R47%, D50% and R60% then an ideal spot for the last Republican candidate could be e.g. at 52%.

Juho






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Juho Laatu
2008-11-13 22:11:27 UTC
Permalink
--- On Thu, 13/11/08, Raph Frank <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:39 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm
> <km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:

> > For honesty, then, we have to know which are the two
> best candidates. This
> > sounds like a proportional representation problem with
> a "council" of two;
> > however, such methods cannot be invulnerable to
> cloning, since the Droop
> > proportionality criterion and clone independence
> contradict each other (by
> > http://www.mcdougall.org.uk/VM/ISSUE3/P5.HTM ,
> "clone-no-harm").
>
> I disagree, a PR method is not what you want here. If the
> best
> candidate is cloned, then both clones should be picked as
> the top-2.

I agree that the targets of proportional methods and single winner methods are different. The best single winner may not be included in the best set of proportional representatives.

> PR will likely elect
> candidates at the
> 33% and 67% marks. Neither of those candidates is optimal.
>
> In fact, I think that picking one of the 2 would be give
> roughly the
> same result as the plurality system.

One could also claim that in a typical two-party system the two main candidates often are roughly at the 45% and 55% marks.


> >> 40: A1>A2>B>C
> >> 08: A2>A1>B>C
> >> 07: A2>B>A1>C
> >> 25: B>A2>C>A1
> >> 20: C>B>A2>A1
> >> A2 would be eliminated first in IRV but here A1
> and A2 form a party
> >> (with 55 first preference votes) and therefore C
> will be eliminated
> >> first, B next, and then A2 will win.
> >
> > This seems to be more of a problem with IRV, and so
> I'd say that a better
> > solution would be to switch to another voting system
> rather than try to
> > patch it up with party lists.
>
> Also, the A2>B>A1 voters cannot be considered members
> of the A party.
> This highlights a problem with the party list system, it
> assumes
> voters are rock solid supporters of their first
> choice's party.

This party list based method actually allowed the party supporters not to be rock solid supporters of the party. Those 7 A2>B>A1 voters were able to indicate that they preferred B to A1. And their favourite still won.

Those voters may still be considered to be members of the A party. It is quite natural that members that are close to the border of the party like some of the candidates of the nearby B party better than the candidates of the very other end of the A party. These voters may still accept the alliance of A1 and A2 although they might be even happier if A2 and B (and maybe A1) would establish a new party together.

Juho







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Raph Frank
2008-11-13 22:26:05 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:11 PM, Juho Laatu <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> This party list based method actually allowed the party supporters not to be rock solid supporters of the party. Those 7 A2>B>A1 voters were able to indicate that they preferred B to A1. And their favourite still won.

Hmm, it is IRV except but it uses a different elimination order. A
candidate from the smallest party is eliminated first (and presumably
the candidate from the party with the fewest votes if the party has
more than 1 vote).

I assume that the party totals are re-calculated after each
elimination? That means that the largest party doesn't automatically
win (as their candidates would be eliminated last)
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Juho Laatu
2008-11-13 22:11:22 UTC
Permalink
--- On Thu, 13/11/08, Kristofer Munsterhjelm <km-***@broadpark.no> wrote:

> I think that in order to get anywhere on this path, we
> would have to know what it is we actually want from a
> runoff.

First I want to note that I don't want to promote runoffs, just to study them.

> There are two reasons why you might have a runoff:
> the honest, that voters can discuss which of the two
> candidates are better without having to consider the others,

Sometimes it may be possible to achieve the same effect my publishing polls before the election.

> But what's a viable candidate? Is
> it viable if in Smith (or mutual majority, or whatnot)?

Mutual majority makes more sense than Smith.

In the given example A, B and C formed a strongly looped Smith set, and D was a Condorcet loser (but not by mutual majority) that was almost a Condorcet winner. In this situation also D could be a viable candidate for the last runoff round.

> > The party lists could be more interesting when
> breaking Condorcet
> > cycles. But in a runoff one could first vote between
> parties and only
> > then between candidates of the winning party. I'm
> not sure that this is
> > very useful, but this way one could e.g. reduce the
> risk of the best
> > compromise candidate of a party being eliminated too
> early.
> >
> > For example
> > 40: A1>A2>B>C
> > 08: A2>A1>B>C
> > 07: A2>B>A1>C
> > 25: B>A2>C>A1
> > 20: C>B>A2>A1
> > A2 would be eliminated first in IRV but here A1 and A2
> form a party
> > (with 55 first preference votes) and therefore C will
> be eliminated
> > first, B next, and then A2 will win.
>
> This seems to be more of a problem with IRV, and so I'd
> say that a better solution would be to switch to another
> voting system rather than try to patch it up with party
> lists.

Yes, this is a problem of IRV. Yes, there may be better methods than the IRV based ones. Use of parties may provide some limited benefits, but they add complexity too.

Juho





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Dave Ketchum
2008-11-10 18:10:01 UTC
Permalink
How do your thoughts compare with Condorcet as a competitor? It:
Normally is defined as not doing runoffs.
Has no problem with voters offering whatever quantity of ranks they
choose, including doing bullet voting.

DWK

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:05:16 +0000 (GMT) Juho Laatu wrote:
> FYI. Finland used to have three rounds in the presidential elections. Since 1994 a typical direct two round method has been used. Before that (in most elections) the voters first elected 300 (or 301) electors who then voted in three rounds (two candidates at the last round).
>
> Reasons behind moving to the direct two round system included assumed general popularity of a direct election, some problems with heavy trading and planning of votes by the electors, possibility of black horses and other voting patterns that are not based on the citizens' votes. Maybe three rounds / three election days in a direct election would have been too expensive and too tiring.
>
> - - - - -
>
> One somewhat related method:
>
> I sometimes played with the idea that in IRV one would not totally eliminate the least popular (first place) candidates but would use some softer means and would allow the "eliminated" candidates to win later if they turn out to be the favourites of many voters (after their first preference candidates have lost all chances to win).
>
> One could e.g. force supporters of the "eliminated" candidates to approve more than one candidate (at least one of the "remaining" candidates) (instead of just bullet voting their second preference). On possible way to terminate the algorithm would be to stop when someone has reached >50% approval level.
>
> Also in "non-instant" runoffs one could e.g. force the voters to approve at least one on the "remaining" candidates. (One could eliminate more than one candidate at different rounds.)
>
> Juho
--
***@clarityconnect.com people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.



----
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Juho Laatu
2008-11-11 00:01:36 UTC
Permalink
The sequential elimination processes tends to introduce additional problems. Most Condorcet methods don't have this problem.

Condorcet may have some other problems that the sequential elimination based approach may avoid, but especially in large public elections with independent voter decision making and without too accurate knowledge about the behaviour of other voters the performance of Condorcet methods is very good.

(Just checking how one could eliminate some of the problems of sequential elimination (e.g. by using approval and avoid losing the "eliminated" candidates).)

Juho


--- On Mon, 10/11/08, Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com> wrote:

> From: Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com>
> Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
> To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
> Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
> Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 8:10 PM
> How do your thoughts compare with Condorcet as a competitor?
> It:
> Normally is defined as not doing runoffs.
> Has no problem with voters offering whatever quantity
> of ranks they choose, including doing bullet voting.
>
> DWK
>
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:05:16 +0000 (GMT) Juho Laatu wrote:
> > FYI. Finland used to have three rounds in the
> presidential elections. Since 1994 a typical direct two
> round method has been used. Before that (in most elections)
> the voters first elected 300 (or 301) electors who then
> voted in three rounds (two candidates at the last round).
> >
> > Reasons behind moving to the direct two round system
> included assumed general popularity of a direct election,
> some problems with heavy trading and planning of votes by
> the electors, possibility of black horses and other voting
> patterns that are not based on the citizens' votes.
> Maybe three rounds / three election days in a direct
> election would have been too expensive and too tiring.
> >
> > - - - - -
> >
> > One somewhat related method:
> >
> > I sometimes played with the idea that in IRV one would
> not totally eliminate the least popular (first place)
> candidates but would use some softer means and would allow
> the "eliminated" candidates to win later if they
> turn out to be the favourites of many voters (after their
> first preference candidates have lost all chances to win).
> >
> > One could e.g. force supporters of the
> "eliminated" candidates to approve more than one
> candidate (at least one of the "remaining"
> candidates) (instead of just bullet voting their second
> preference). On possible way to terminate the algorithm
> would be to stop when someone has reached >50% approval
> level.
> >
> > Also in "non-instant" runoffs one could e.g.
> force the voters to approve at least one on the
> "remaining" candidates. (One could eliminate more
> than one candidate at different rounds.)
> >
> > Juho
> -- ***@clarityconnect.com
> people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
> Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708
> 607-687-5026
> Do to no one what you would not want done to
> you.
> If you want peace, work for justice.



----
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Dave Ketchum
2008-11-11 00:47:36 UTC
Permalink
If I understand you 'sequential elimination' is IRV and not Condorcet.

DWK

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:01:36 +0000 (GMT) Juho Laatu wrote:
> The sequential elimination processes tends to introduce additional problems. Most Condorcet methods don't have this problem.
>
> Condorcet may have some other problems that the sequential elimination based approach may avoid, but especially in large public elections with independent voter decision making and without too accurate knowledge about the behaviour of other voters the performance of Condorcet methods is very good.
>
> (Just checking how one could eliminate some of the problems of sequential elimination (e.g. by using approval and avoid losing the "eliminated" candidates).)
>
> Juho
>
>
> --- On Mon, 10/11/08, Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com> wrote:
>
>
>>From: Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com>
>>Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
>>To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
>>Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
>>Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 8:10 PM
>>How do your thoughts compare with Condorcet as a competitor?
>> It:
>> Normally is defined as not doing runoffs.
>> Has no problem with voters offering whatever quantity
>>of ranks they choose, including doing bullet voting.
>>
>>DWK
>>
>>On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:05:16 +0000 (GMT) Juho Laatu wrote:
>>
>>>FYI. Finland used to have three rounds in the
>>
>>presidential elections. Since 1994 a typical direct two
>>round method has been used. Before that (in most elections)
>>the voters first elected 300 (or 301) electors who then
>>voted in three rounds (two candidates at the last round).
>>
>>>Reasons behind moving to the direct two round system
>>
>>included assumed general popularity of a direct election,
>>some problems with heavy trading and planning of votes by
>>the electors, possibility of black horses and other voting
>>patterns that are not based on the citizens' votes.
>>Maybe three rounds / three election days in a direct
>>election would have been too expensive and too tiring.
>>
>>>- - - - -
>>>
>>>One somewhat related method:
>>>
>>>I sometimes played with the idea that in IRV one would
>>
>>not totally eliminate the least popular (first place)
>>candidates but would use some softer means and would allow
>>the "eliminated" candidates to win later if they
>>turn out to be the favourites of many voters (after their
>>first preference candidates have lost all chances to win).
>>
>>>One could e.g. force supporters of the
>>
>>"eliminated" candidates to approve more than one
>>candidate (at least one of the "remaining"
>>candidates) (instead of just bullet voting their second
>>preference). On possible way to terminate the algorithm
>>would be to stop when someone has reached >50% approval
>>level.
>>
>>>Also in "non-instant" runoffs one could e.g.
>>
>>force the voters to approve at least one on the
>>"remaining" candidates. (One could eliminate more
>>than one candidate at different rounds.)
>>
>>>Juho
--
***@clarityconnect.com people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.



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Juho Laatu
2008-11-11 06:39:53 UTC
Permalink
Yes, IRV is a good example. Most Condorcet methods do the comparisons/evaluation just once (when all the candidates are in the same situation).

Juho




--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com> wrote:

> From: Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com>
> Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
> To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
> Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 2:47 AM

> If I understand you 'sequential elimination' is IRV
> and not Condorcet.
>
> DWK
>
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:01:36 +0000 (GMT) Juho Laatu wrote:
> > The sequential elimination processes tends to
> introduce additional problems. Most Condorcet methods
> don't have this problem.
> >
> > Condorcet may have some other problems that the
> sequential elimination based approach may avoid, but
> especially in large public elections with independent voter
> decision making and without too accurate knowledge about the
> behaviour of other voters the performance of Condorcet
> methods is very good.
> >
> > (Just checking how one could eliminate some of the
> problems of sequential elimination (e.g. by using approval
> and avoid losing the "eliminated" candidates).)
> >
> > Juho
> >
> >
> > --- On Mon, 10/11/08, Dave Ketchum
> <***@clarityconnect.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>From: Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com>
> >>Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
> >>To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
> >>Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
> >>Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 8:10 PM
> >>How do your thoughts compare with Condorcet as a
> competitor?
> >> It:
> >> Normally is defined as not doing runoffs.
> >> Has no problem with voters offering whatever
> quantity
> >>of ranks they choose, including doing bullet
> voting.
> >>
> >>DWK
> >>
> >>On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:05:16 +0000 (GMT) Juho Laatu
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>FYI. Finland used to have three rounds in the
> >>
> >>presidential elections. Since 1994 a typical direct
> two
> >>round method has been used. Before that (in most
> elections)
> >>the voters first elected 300 (or 301) electors who
> then
> >>voted in three rounds (two candidates at the last
> round).
> >>
> >>>Reasons behind moving to the direct two round
> system
> >>
> >>included assumed general popularity of a direct
> election,
> >>some problems with heavy trading and planning of
> votes by
> >>the electors, possibility of black horses and other
> voting
> >>patterns that are not based on the citizens'
> votes.
> >>Maybe three rounds / three election days in a
> direct
> >>election would have been too expensive and too
> tiring.
> >>
> >>>- - - - -
> >>>
> >>>One somewhat related method:
> >>>
> >>>I sometimes played with the idea that in IRV
> one would
> >>
> >>not totally eliminate the least popular (first
> place)
> >>candidates but would use some softer means and
> would allow
> >>the "eliminated" candidates to win later
> if they
> >>turn out to be the favourites of many voters (after
> their
> >>first preference candidates have lost all chances
> to win).
> >>
> >>>One could e.g. force supporters of the
> >>
> >>"eliminated" candidates to approve more
> than one
> >>candidate (at least one of the
> "remaining"
> >>candidates) (instead of just bullet voting their
> second
> >>preference). On possible way to terminate the
> algorithm
> >>would be to stop when someone has reached >50%
> approval
> >>level.
> >>
> >>>Also in "non-instant" runoffs one
> could e.g.
> >>
> >>force the voters to approve at least one on the
> >>"remaining" candidates. (One could
> eliminate more
> >>than one candidate at different rounds.)
> >>
> >>>Juho
> --
> ***@clarityconnect.com
> people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
> Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708
> 607-687-5026
> Do to no one what you would not want done to
> you.
> If you want peace, work for justice.



----
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Dave Ketchum
2008-11-11 16:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Not clear to me what you meant.

While ballots are almost identical, such that Condorcet can accept what
voters have done by IRV rules, their processing is entirely different.

IRV is interested in first choices. If it decides that A is a loser it
must go back to the ballots that ranked A top and reclassify them by next
rank of each.

Condorcet is interested in which candidate is best liked. For this it
needs an NxN array summing all the ballots. If it is convenient to count
the ballots in multiple locations this is fine - create an NxN array at
each location and sum them together in one final location for analysis.

DWK

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 06:39:53 +0000 (GMT) Juho Laatu wrote:
> Yes, IRV is a good example. Most Condorcet methods do the comparisons/evaluation just once (when all the candidates are in the same situation).
>
> Juho
>
>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com> wrote:
>
>
>>From: Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com>
>>Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
>>To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
>>Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
>>Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 2:47 AM
>
>
>>If I understand you 'sequential elimination' is IRV
>>and not Condorcet.
>>
>>DWK
>>
>>On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:01:36 +0000 (GMT) Juho Laatu wrote:
>>
>>>The sequential elimination processes tends to
>>
>>introduce additional problems. Most Condorcet methods
>>don't have this problem.
>>
>>>Condorcet may have some other problems that the
>>
>>sequential elimination based approach may avoid, but
>>especially in large public elections with independent voter
>>decision making and without too accurate knowledge about the
>>behaviour of other voters the performance of Condorcet
>>methods is very good.
>>
>>>(Just checking how one could eliminate some of the
>>
>>problems of sequential elimination (e.g. by using approval
>>and avoid losing the "eliminated" candidates).)
>>
>>>Juho
>>>
>>>
>>>--- On Mon, 10/11/08, Dave Ketchum
>>
>><***@clarityconnect.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>From: Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com>
>>>>Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
>>>>To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
>>>>Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
>>>>Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 8:10 PM
>>>>How do your thoughts compare with Condorcet as a
>>>
>>competitor?
>>
>>>>It:
>>>> Normally is defined as not doing runoffs.
>>>> Has no problem with voters offering whatever
>>>
>>quantity
>>
>>>>of ranks they choose, including doing bullet
>>>
>>voting.
>>
>>>>DWK
>>>>
>>>>On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:05:16 +0000 (GMT) Juho Laatu
>>>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>>>FYI. Finland used to have three rounds in the
>>>>
>>>>presidential elections. Since 1994 a typical direct
>>>
>>two
>>
>>>>round method has been used. Before that (in most
>>>
>>elections)
>>
>>>>the voters first elected 300 (or 301) electors who
>>>
>>then
>>
>>>>voted in three rounds (two candidates at the last
>>>
>>round).
>>
>>>>>Reasons behind moving to the direct two round
>>>>
>>system
>>
>>>>included assumed general popularity of a direct
>>>
>>election,
>>
>>>>some problems with heavy trading and planning of
>>>
>>votes by
>>
>>>>the electors, possibility of black horses and other
>>>
>>voting
>>
>>>>patterns that are not based on the citizens'
>>>
>>votes.
>>
>>>>Maybe three rounds / three election days in a
>>>
>>direct
>>
>>>>election would have been too expensive and too
>>>
>>tiring.
>>
>>>>>- - - - -
>>>>>
>>>>>One somewhat related method:
>>>>>
>>>>>I sometimes played with the idea that in IRV
>>>>
>>one would
>>
>>>>not totally eliminate the least popular (first
>>>
>>place)
>>
>>>>candidates but would use some softer means and
>>>
>>would allow
>>
>>>>the "eliminated" candidates to win later
>>>
>>if they
>>
>>>>turn out to be the favourites of many voters (after
>>>
>>their
>>
>>>>first preference candidates have lost all chances
>>>
>>to win).
>>
>>>>>One could e.g. force supporters of the
>>>>
>>>>"eliminated" candidates to approve more
>>>
>>than one
>>
>>>>candidate (at least one of the
>>>
>>"remaining"
>>
>>>>candidates) (instead of just bullet voting their
>>>
>>second
>>
>>>>preference). On possible way to terminate the
>>>
>>algorithm
>>
>>>>would be to stop when someone has reached >50%
>>>
>>approval
>>
>>>>level.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Also in "non-instant" runoffs one
>>>>
>>could e.g.
>>
>>>>force the voters to approve at least one on the
>>>>"remaining" candidates. (One could
>>>
>>eliminate more
>>
>>>>than one candidate at different rounds.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Juho
--
***@clarityconnect.com people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.



----
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Juho Laatu
2008-11-11 22:18:55 UTC
Permalink
I just referred to the basic property of IRV that it makes final irreversible decisions (eliminates candidates) before even reading the later preferences in each ballot.

(Some really strong compromise candidates may be eliminated early. And on the other hand also candidates with not much first place support may be elected.)

Juho


--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com> wrote:

> From: Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com>
> Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
> To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
> Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 6:43 PM
> Not clear to me what you meant.
>
> While ballots are almost identical, such that Condorcet can
> accept what
> voters have done by IRV rules, their processing is entirely
> different.
>
> IRV is interested in first choices. If it decides that A
> is a loser it
> must go back to the ballots that ranked A top and
> reclassify them by next
> rank of each.
>
> Condorcet is interested in which candidate is best liked.
> For this it
> needs an NxN array summing all the ballots. If it is
> convenient to count
> the ballots in multiple locations this is fine - create an
> NxN array at
> each location and sum them together in one final location
> for analysis.
>
> DWK
>
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 06:39:53 +0000 (GMT) Juho Laatu wrote:
> > Yes, IRV is a good example. Most Condorcet methods do
> the comparisons/evaluation just once (when all the
> candidates are in the same situation).
> >
> > Juho
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Dave Ketchum
> <***@clarityconnect.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>From: Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com>
> >>Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
> >>To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
> >>Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
> >>Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 2:47 AM
> >
> >
> >>If I understand you 'sequential
> elimination' is IRV
> >>and not Condorcet.
> >>
> >>DWK
> >>
> >>On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:01:36 +0000 (GMT) Juho Laatu
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>The sequential elimination processes tends to
> >>
> >>introduce additional problems. Most Condorcet
> methods
> >>don't have this problem.
> >>
> >>>Condorcet may have some other problems that the
> >>
> >>sequential elimination based approach may avoid,
> but
> >>especially in large public elections with
> independent voter
> >>decision making and without too accurate knowledge
> about the
> >>behaviour of other voters the performance of
> Condorcet
> >>methods is very good.
> >>
> >>>(Just checking how one could eliminate some of
> the
> >>
> >>problems of sequential elimination (e.g. by using
> approval
> >>and avoid losing the "eliminated"
> candidates).)
> >>
> >>>Juho
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>--- On Mon, 10/11/08, Dave Ketchum
> >>
> >><***@clarityconnect.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>From: Dave Ketchum
> <***@clarityconnect.com>
> >>>>Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
> >>>>To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
> >>>>Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
> >>>>Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 8:10 PM
> >>>>How do your thoughts compare with Condorcet
> as a
> >>>
> >>competitor?
> >>
> >>>>It:
> >>>> Normally is defined as not doing
> runoffs.
> >>>> Has no problem with voters offering
> whatever
> >>>
> >>quantity
> >>
> >>>>of ranks they choose, including doing
> bullet
> >>>
> >>voting.
> >>
> >>>>DWK
> >>>>
> >>>>On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:05:16 +0000 (GMT)
> Juho Laatu
> >>>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>FYI. Finland used to have three rounds
> in the
> >>>>
> >>>>presidential elections. Since 1994 a
> typical direct
> >>>
> >>two
> >>
> >>>>round method has been used. Before that (in
> most
> >>>
> >>elections)
> >>
> >>>>the voters first elected 300 (or 301)
> electors who
> >>>
> >>then
> >>
> >>>>voted in three rounds (two candidates at
> the last
> >>>
> >>round).
> >>
> >>>>>Reasons behind moving to the direct two
> round
> >>>>
> >>system
> >>
> >>>>included assumed general popularity of a
> direct
> >>>
> >>election,
> >>
> >>>>some problems with heavy trading and
> planning of
> >>>
> >>votes by
> >>
> >>>>the electors, possibility of black horses
> and other
> >>>
> >>voting
> >>
> >>>>patterns that are not based on the
> citizens'
> >>>
> >>votes.
> >>
> >>>>Maybe three rounds / three election days in
> a
> >>>
> >>direct
> >>
> >>>>election would have been too expensive and
> too
> >>>
> >>tiring.
> >>
> >>>>>- - - - -
> >>>>>
> >>>>>One somewhat related method:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I sometimes played with the idea that
> in IRV
> >>>>
> >>one would
> >>
> >>>>not totally eliminate the least popular
> (first
> >>>
> >>place)
> >>
> >>>>candidates but would use some softer means
> and
> >>>
> >>would allow
> >>
> >>>>the "eliminated" candidates to
> win later
> >>>
> >>if they
> >>
> >>>>turn out to be the favourites of many
> voters (after
> >>>
> >>their
> >>
> >>>>first preference candidates have lost all
> chances
> >>>
> >>to win).
> >>
> >>>>>One could e.g. force supporters of the
> >>>>
> >>>>"eliminated" candidates to
> approve more
> >>>
> >>than one
> >>
> >>>>candidate (at least one of the
> >>>
> >>"remaining"
> >>
> >>>>candidates) (instead of just bullet voting
> their
> >>>
> >>second
> >>
> >>>>preference). On possible way to terminate
> the
> >>>
> >>algorithm
> >>
> >>>>would be to stop when someone has reached
> >50%
> >>>
> >>approval
> >>
> >>>>level.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Also in "non-instant" runoffs
> one
> >>>>
> >>could e.g.
> >>
> >>>>force the voters to approve at least one on
> the
> >>>>"remaining" candidates. (One
> could
> >>>
> >>eliminate more
> >>
> >>>>than one candidate at different rounds.)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Juho
> --
> ***@clarityconnect.com
> people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
> Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708
> 607-687-5026
> Do to no one what you would not want done to
> you.
> If you want peace, work for justice.



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Dave Ketchum
2008-11-11 23:59:49 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:18:55 +0000 (GMT) Juho Laatu wrote:
> I just referred to the basic property of IRV that it makes final irreversible decisions (eliminates candidates) before even reading the later preferences in each ballot.

Agreed.
>
> (Some really strong compromise candidates may be eliminated early. And on the other hand also candidates with not much first place support may be elected.)

True that well liked candidates can lose if short on first place votes.

Possible, though difficult, to win with only a few first place votes - they
must have more than the least as each least gets discarded.

DWK
>
> Juho
>
>
> --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com> wrote:
>
>
>>From: Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com>
>>Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
>>To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
>>Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
>>Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 6:43 PM
>>Not clear to me what you meant.
>>
>>While ballots are almost identical, such that Condorcet can
>>accept what
>>voters have done by IRV rules, their processing is entirely
>>different.
>>
>>IRV is interested in first choices. If it decides that A
>>is a loser it
>>must go back to the ballots that ranked A top and
>>reclassify them by next
>>rank of each.
>>
>>Condorcet is interested in which candidate is best liked.
>>For this it
>>needs an NxN array summing all the ballots. If it is
>>convenient to count
>>the ballots in multiple locations this is fine - create an
>>NxN array at
>>each location and sum them together in one final location
>>for analysis.
>>
>>DWK
>>
>>On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 06:39:53 +0000 (GMT) Juho Laatu wrote:
>>
>>>Yes, IRV is a good example. Most Condorcet methods do
>>
>>the comparisons/evaluation just once (when all the
>>candidates are in the same situation).
>>
>>>Juho
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Dave Ketchum
>>
>><***@clarityconnect.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>From: Dave Ketchum <***@clarityconnect.com>
>>>>Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
>>>>To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
>>>>Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
>>>>Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 2:47 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>>If I understand you 'sequential
>>>
>>elimination' is IRV
>>
>>>>and not Condorcet.
>>>>
>>>>DWK
>>>>
>>>>On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:01:36 +0000 (GMT) Juho Laatu
>>>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>>>The sequential elimination processes tends to
>>>>
>>>>introduce additional problems. Most Condorcet
>>>
>>methods
>>
>>>>don't have this problem.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Condorcet may have some other problems that the
>>>>
>>>>sequential elimination based approach may avoid,
>>>
>>but
>>
>>>>especially in large public elections with
>>>
>>independent voter
>>
>>>>decision making and without too accurate knowledge
>>>
>>about the
>>
>>>>behaviour of other voters the performance of
>>>
>>Condorcet
>>
>>>>methods is very good.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>(Just checking how one could eliminate some of
>>>>
>>the
>>
>>>>problems of sequential elimination (e.g. by using
>>>
>>approval
>>
>>>>and avoid losing the "eliminated"
>>>
>>candidates).)
>>
>>>>>Juho
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--- On Mon, 10/11/08, Dave Ketchum
>>>>
>>>><***@clarityconnect.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>From: Dave Ketchum
>>>>>
>><***@clarityconnect.com>
>>
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
>>>>>>To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
>>>>>>Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
>>>>>>Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 8:10 PM
>>>>>>How do your thoughts compare with Condorcet
>>>>>
>>as a
>>
>>>>competitor?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>It:
>>>>>> Normally is defined as not doing
>>>>>
>>runoffs.
>>
>>>>>> Has no problem with voters offering
>>>>>
>>whatever
>>
>>>>quantity
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>of ranks they choose, including doing
>>>>>
>>bullet
>>
>>>>voting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>DWK
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:05:16 +0000 (GMT)
>>>>>
>>Juho Laatu
>>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>FYI. Finland used to have three rounds
>>>>>>
>>in the
>>
>>>>>>presidential elections. Since 1994 a
>>>>>
>>typical direct
>>
>>>>two
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>round method has been used. Before that (in
>>>>>
>>most
>>
>>>>elections)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>the voters first elected 300 (or 301)
>>>>>
>>electors who
>>
>>>>then
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>voted in three rounds (two candidates at
>>>>>
>>the last
>>
>>>>round).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>Reasons behind moving to the direct two
>>>>>>
>>round
>>
>>>>system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>included assumed general popularity of a
>>>>>
>>direct
>>
>>>>election,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>some problems with heavy trading and
>>>>>
>>planning of
>>
>>>>votes by
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>the electors, possibility of black horses
>>>>>
>>and other
>>
>>>>voting
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>patterns that are not based on the
>>>>>
>>citizens'
>>
>>>>votes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Maybe three rounds / three election days in
>>>>>
>>a
>>
>>>>direct
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>election would have been too expensive and
>>>>>
>>too
>>
>>>>tiring.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>- - - - -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>One somewhat related method:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I sometimes played with the idea that
>>>>>>
>>in IRV
>>
>>>>one would
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>not totally eliminate the least popular
>>>>>
>>(first
>>
>>>>place)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>candidates but would use some softer means
>>>>>
>>and
>>
>>>>would allow
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>the "eliminated" candidates to
>>>>>
>>win later
>>
>>>>if they
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>turn out to be the favourites of many
>>>>>
>>voters (after
>>
>>>>their
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>first preference candidates have lost all
>>>>>
>>chances
>>
>>>>to win).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>One could e.g. force supporters of the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"eliminated" candidates to
>>>>>
>>approve more
>>
>>>>than one
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>candidate (at least one of the
>>>>>
>>>>"remaining"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>candidates) (instead of just bullet voting
>>>>>
>>their
>>
>>>>second
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>preference). On possible way to terminate
>>>>>
>>the
>>
>>>>algorithm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>would be to stop when someone has reached
>>>>>
>>>50%
>>>
>>>>approval
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>level.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Also in "non-instant" runoffs
>>>>>>
>>one
>>
>>>>could e.g.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>force the voters to approve at least one on
>>>>>
>>the
>>
>>>>>>"remaining" candidates. (One
>>>>>
>>could
>>
>>>>eliminate more
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>than one candidate at different rounds.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Juho
--
***@clarityconnect.com people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.



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Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
2008-11-09 19:26:10 UTC
Permalink
At 01:23 PM 11/6/2008, Kathy Dopp wrote:

>I posted three of these most recent affidavits of the defendants of
>Instant Runoff Voting and STV here:
>
>http://electionmathematics.org/em-IRV/DefendantsDocs/

>The first two docs listed are by Fair Vote's new expert witness.

11AffidavitofDavidAusten-Smith.pdf

The summary of the paper, tells us right away what we are facing.
(hand copied from the PDF image.)

>BACKGROUND
>1. I am presently the Peter G. Peterson Professor of Corporate
>Ethics at the Kellogg School of Management, Northwestern University.
>My curriculum vitae is attached as Exhibit A. A true and correct
>copy of my 1991 article, "Monotonicity in Electoral Systems" is
>attached as Exhibit B.
>
>INTRODUCTION
>2. In paragraphs 4-8 of this affidavit, I explicitly address the
>issue of the monotonicity of Instant Runoff Voting (IRV). Although
>IRV is subject to the possibility of non-monotonicity, I argue that
>this issue is largely irrelevant to the appeal of any given rule. In
>particular, every reasonable voting rules suffers from the same
>problem when there are at least three candidates for office.
>
>3. In paragraphs 9-14 of this affidavit, I briefly review the import
>of Arrow's Theorem, which demonstrates the impossibility of
>identifying any wholly satisfactory voting rule for aggregating
>individual preferences over more than two candidates. See Kenneth
>Arrow, Social Choice and Individual Values, (1st ed., 1951); Kenneth
>Arrow, Social Choice and Individual Values, (2nd ed., 1962).

Paragraph 1 gives us some useful background. The work he did, on
which he may be basing his present opinion, predates the widespread
realization, among election methods experts, that Arrow's theorem
does *not* state what he is claiming. Arrow, in particularly, set up
his definition of "voting rule" in such a way as to exclude, even
from consideration, rules which consider preference strength, which
allow the expression of equal preference, indeed, which take, as
input, anything other than a strict preference order, covering all
candidates. If there are three candidates, Arrow's Theorem, as
applied to practical voting systems (Arrow really wasn't writing
about voting systems, as such, but about deriving a social preference
order from the individual preference orders of the members of the
society) would require the voter to rank all three, without any
consideration of preference strength, so, for example, if the voter
ranks Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, and Adolf Hitler, the
preference expressed for, say, Abraham Lincoln over Martin Luther
King, or vice-versa, is equal, as far as the system is concerned, to
the preference expressed for the least preferred of those two over
Adolf Hitler.

Arrow's theorem, likewise, would not apply to Top Two Runoff, a
system which IRV is replacing in Minneapolis. That is because a
necessary condition for Arrow's Theorem to apply is that a method be
deterministic, from a single collection of the preferences. Likewise,
Arrow's theorem doesn't cover Bucklin Voting, the system which was
outlawed in Minnesota by Brown v. Smallwood.

Thus, much of this paper is totally off the mark. But let's start
with monotonicity. This writer explicitly states that "every
reasonable voting rules suffers from the same problem." This is, in a
word, preposterous. It is quite possible to argue, as he does, that
the monotonicity problem is, in itself, of little practical import,
though the non-monotonicity of IRV is a symptom of the erratic
behavior of the method, something easily seen in Yee diagrams. Only
in a situation where there are two strong candidates, which
effectively converts IRV into a fancy version of Plurality, does the
behavior appear stable. However, to argue that every voting system is
non-monotonic is to make mincemeat of the concept. What has he done?
Was this a mere mistake in his first paragraph.

No. He's pulled a bait-and-switch. He shifts the definition of
"voting system." Arrow's theorem deals, as I mention above, with
deterministic systems only, and monotonicity failure in IRV takes
place in such a deterministic system. But in considering other voting
systems than IRV, he pulls in consideration of primary elections,
i.e., he is not considering the single elections using these other
rules, but some larger process. Yet the analysis of such
multiple-ballot systems, I'd bet dollars to donuts (I haven't read
the papers yet), will assume fixed preference, i.e., the runoff is
just an appendage to the primary, there is no new campaigning, no
shift in turnout, no opportunity for the voters to reconsider their votes.

Austen-Smith does precisely this in his analysis in paragraph 5. He
essentially claims that a primary/runoff system with majority rule
suffers from monotonicity failure, using the same example as used
with IRV. But this assumes fixed preferences, which is, in fact,
preposterous as to real elections. Further, the whole concept of
*seriousness* of monotonicity failure was impossible to examine under
the old paradigms, where election methods were judged according to
"election criteria" deemed "reasonable." "Seriousness" is something
that, to be anything other than purely subjective, requires
*measurement,* and only utility analysis can approach it.

If there is monotonicity failure resulting in the election of B
instead of A, but the voters who voted for A actually are *almost* as
satisfied with B, the failure isn't serious. On the other hand, if,
for these voters, the preference is strong, it is, for them at least,
a serious failure. And if we aggregate preference strength (Warren
Smith does this by aggregating "Bayesian Regret," a measure of how
much the election result deviates from the ideal result, as
considered by each voter), over all voters, we have an overall
measure of election quality.

IRV generally produces the same result as plurality, in nonpartisan
elections; current experience in the U.S. is proving this. (So far,
no counterexamples have appeared, in a substantial series of
elections.) (I.e., the first round leader wins, vote transfers if
more rounds are required do not shift the result.) However, when it
elects without having found a majority of ballots cast, it is easy to
show that it is almost certainly electing, in some cases, a candidate
who would be rejected by the electorate in a runoff. How serious a
problem this actually is would require study, and the data is not
being collected. However, that fact is simple to show: in real runoff
elections, as examined both by myself and by FairVote, there is a
"comeback election" in about one out of three runoffs. The leader in
the first round ended up losing the election, through an explicit vote.

IRV does *not* simulate top-two runoff, and Austen-Smith's argument
here is thoroughly defective, practically obtuse.

The baseline democratic process, majority rule, is far more
sophisticated, used as an election method, than is commonly
understood by election methods experts, because that field went
almost entirely toward consideration of single-ballot methods. Yet
Majority Rule, strictly speaking, is a two-candidate method. For
convenience, many ballots are collapsed into one, and that collapse
can cause some problems. But uncollapsed Majority Rule, where, for
example, an assembly might nominate A for an office and the question
is then presented, "Shall A be elected?" This is a two-candidate
election! The "candidates" are A and "no election." However, even
before the presentation of the question, any member of the assembly
could move to amend to substitute B for A. If the amendment passes,
clearly the electorate prefers B to A. This process, through a series
of votes, is, among other things, Condorcet compliant. That is, if
there is a single candidate preferred over every other candidate by a
majority of voters, this candidate will prevail.

Naturally, we don't do this for public elections. I'd argue that
there is a way that we could do it, and it would restore pure
democracy to public elections, but that is beyond the scope of this
comment. The point is that systems which allow, as a contingency when
there is majority failure, further polls, are generally more
sophisticated than analysis of the voting rule used in each stage
alone. *And that is with fixed preferences.* When preferences shift,
as they do in the real world in such processes, they reflect the
preferences of an electorate which has presumably become more
informed. Thus Robert's Rules of Order expresses a dislike of any
election method which is satisfied with less than a majority of
ballots cast for the winner, and, even where they suggest
preferential voting, giving an example that is, with the exception of
one detail, the same as "instant runoff voting," they insist on that
detail: if the vote transfers do not produce a majority of votes for
a candidate, the election must be repeated. They also dislike
eliminating candidates from the runoff, and the reason is that if you
do top-two elimination, you may eliminate a very good, compromise
candidate, i.e., even everyone's second choice, perhaps considered
almost as good, or even as good, as the best of the top two, *by
every voter.* (Remember, most voting methods do not allow the
expression of equal preference, except at the bottom. -- i.e., I
voted for Obama; I expressed equal preference for Nader and McCain,
because the voting system doesn't allow me to rank more deeply than
top preference.)

But Top-Two Runoff, supposedly, suffers from this problem, same as
IRV. Well, it might seem so, and it is so, if the runoff ballot is
restricted *and does not allow write-in candidates.* We are so
accustomed to situations where write-ins don't have a prayer that we
consider that taking a candidate off the ballot is the electoral
equivalent of shooting him. However, take this genuine compromise
winner off the ballot, and with an electorate that is at all awake
(and it only takes a few to make sufficient noise), that candidate
could win, even by a landslide, once it was made widely known that
there was a write-in campaign). I would have been skeptical about
this, myself, until I saw what happened in Long Beach, California,
where a mayor, excluded from the ballot by term limit rules, was the
plurality winner in a primary, and, with a runoff mandated and still
excluded from the runoff ballot, won (slightly short of a majority,
but plurality victory allowed in the runoff) the runoff. Long Beach
is a town of almost a half-million people. This was not some small,
quirky result. Write-in votes are a basic democratic right, and when
that is chipped away at, as it has been, democracy is the loser. In
San Francisco, write-ins used to be allowed in runoffs. There was one
runoff election held before IRV was implemented there, but write-ins
were not allowed. The rules were changed to prevent it; this was
challenged and was sustained by the California Supreme Court. The
decision turned on whether the primary and runoff were a single
election or two. The court decided as if it was a single election,
though, it is easy to show, it is two (different voters, in particular).

The first election determines two things: is there a candidate
supported by a majority? If so, that candidate is elected. If not,
the top two candidates -- as it's currently done, it *could* be done
much better -- are given ballot position in the runoff, and no other
candidates may be on that ballot. In San Francisco, though, they
could register as candidates and votes for them would be counted.
(San Francisco did not allow pure write-ins, but rather provided for
easy registration of candidates, which apparently was considered
adequate, and I'd agree.)

I'm not sure what the purpose of this affidavit is. Monotonicity
failure should not be an issue before the Minnesota Supreme Court,
except in one narrow way. The Brown v. Smallwood court discussed the
electoral situation in terms that indicated that they would be
displeased by a system whereby voting for your favorite could prevent
that candidate from winning. I can see that it might be useful to see
what arguments are being presented by the plaintiffs, here.
Monotonicity isn't what I'd focus on; rather, I'd be more concerned
about equal protection; IRV does not treat all *votes* equally.
Rather, votes are conditional or contingent in IRV. In real IRV
ballots, as being used in the U.S., only a limited number of
preferences may be expressed; you may vote, in San Francisco, for up
to three candidates. However, some elections have over twenty
candidates *on the ballot.* In Top-Two Runoff as they used to have --
and with so many candidates, majority failure was common, so runoffs
were common -- one could safely vote for one's favorite, period, and,
generally, the top two were simply the frontrunners from the start,
and then one could decide whether or not it was important to vote in
the runoff, where a clear choice was presented (and the voters could
look more deeply at each candidate, if they care.) (The effect of
preference strength on runoff elections is a seriously understudied
topic. It's been assumed that low runoff turnout is some sort of
problem, when, in fact it might be a good thing. It depends, and
without understanding preference strength, it's impossible to tell
the difference.)

Now, though, candidates are winning in San Francisco with less than a
majority of votes cast, as little as under forty percent. There are a
number of possible causes:

(1) Voters are voting sincerely, and sincerely prefer three
candidates on the ballot to either frontrunner.
(2) Voters are truncating their votes due to lack of sufficient
knowledge, perhaps. They know whom they want, so they vote for that
candidate, and leave it at that. A variation on this possibility is
that they detest all the candidates except, perhaps, the one they
voted for. (Note that sincerely voting for a write-in considered to
have no possibility of winning is actually a reasonable strategy in
Top-Two Runoff, if one thinks that this favorite candidate, not on
the ballot, might win a runoff. By casting a valid vote, one's vote
is included in the definition of "majority." Robert's Rules even
includes in the basis for majority, ballots with "No" written on
them, but not blank ballots. (The Libertarian concept of requiring
None of the Above on ballots is actually standard process under
Robert's Rules, i.e., in pure direct democracy.) Voting systems
theorists have, unfortunately, neglected these details, for obvious
reasons: it's messy. But that's reality.

In any case, if San Francisco wanted to stop paying for runoff
elections, they had a much simpler recourse than IRV, one which would
have produced quite the same election results: stop requiring a
majority. That is what they did, in fact, they just did it with a
fancy and expensive election system. If they wanted to continue to
require a majority (which I certainly recommend), there are much
better election methods than IRV. Bucklin, for example, which
Minnesota recommended, is far easier to count, and it is slightly
more efficient at finding majorities than IRV, because it counts,
when needed, all the votes. Bucklin deals quite well with the spoiler
effect. And it had long use in the United States. Why was it
rejected? I've seen no good account. In Minnesota, it was quite
popular, and the legal profession was generally perplexed -- or
offended -- by Brown v. Smallwood, read the decision and the dissent
and appeal for rehearing. It worked. In other states, where it was
used for primary elections, it's been claimed by FairVote that only
perhaps ten percent of voters were adding additional preferences, and
that they were not shifting results. But that's normal behavior.
*Note that this is what IRV is doing.* Results shift from the use of
preferential voting, for the most part, only in partisan elections,
where vote transfers exhibit consistent patterns; i.e., most
first-choice Nader votes would, when Nader is eliminated, go to Gore.
In spoiler elections, we see a few percent of votes, often less than
ten percent, which shift the result; one does not expect those who
sincerely favor Gore or Bush to cast additional votes; instead, only
those who favor a third party candidate would cast lower preference
votes for Gore or Bush.

(Again, in Brown v. Smallwood, though, we can see a possibly
nonpartisan election where the votes shifted the result, causing
Smallwood to win (in a clearly just result -- same as IRV would have
done --, overturned by the court, which makes me suspect partisan
bias; an unbiased court, finding a procedural problem in the method,
after the lapse of time involved, would have recognized that the
voters would be cheated by overturning the result, because they would
have voted differently if the method had been Plurality. So they
would have still outlawed Bucklin, but would have allowed the
election to stand, the "harm" done to Brown was .... well, this
reminds me of a recent U.S. Supreme Court case where "harm" was done
to a candidate or to those who voted for him, by his not being
promptly declared the winner pending clarification of the count.)

I would be very interested to know how Austen-Smith's 1991 paper was
received. It's old. I've already examined some of the underlying
assumptions; he builds a mathematical structure on them.

Now, as to Arrow's Theorem. In paragraph , after noting the
"hit-or-miss" approach of comparing election methods using
"reasonable" criteria, he claims that"

>In 1951, Kenneth Arrow [...] proved a remarkable result: in effect,
>there exists no unequivocally satisfactory, or normatively
>appealing, voting rules.

This is good political spin. Without a qualifying "in effect," the
statement would be plain wrong. Arrow's Theorem isn't about "voting
rules." It is about something very narrow and specific, taking the
collection of individual "preference lists" -- strict, complete
preferences from members of a society, covering every possible choice
-- and aggregating them to a single "social preference order." He
showed that this process will necessarily violate one of a small set
of supposedly "reasonable" criteria. And there is no doubt about his
result, he proved what he proved.

But there are many "reasonable" voting systems which quite simply are
not covered by Arrow's Theorem. I've mentioned some exceptions above:
muliple-ballot systems, such as Top-Two runoff, or standard
majority-required elections (multiple ballots until you get a
majority) per Robert's Rules. Systems such as Approval Voting ask a
different question than "What is your preference order?" They ask,
instead, "What candidates would you accept?" or, probably more to the
point, "Which candidates, given practical realities as you see them,
are you willing to support." Take a method like this an add a
majority requirement, with a majority preference being necessary
(i.e., if two candidates get majority acceptance, there is, likewise,
a runoff), you've got an election method that isn't even contemplated
by Arrow's Theorem. Allow the expression of ratings, you have got a
method that, with sincere votes, produces a socially optimal outcome,
maximizing satisfaction with the result. The complaints about this
(this is Range Voting) are not based on violation of Arrow's
criteria. They are, instead, based on alleged strategic voting, i.e.,
that voters will warp the outcome, supposedly, by exaggerating their
votes. Again, this is not the place to argue what the best election
method is, but there is, in fact, a published paper that shows that
Range Voting is not only a counterexample to Arrow's Theorem (which
must be restated to even apply to Range Voting), but is a unique
solution. Unfortunately, the math is complex, and Warren Smith, a
mathematician, has criticized the authors for using "notation from hell."

Nevertheless, the point is that Arrow's Theorem doesn't apply, even,
to the system that IRV is replacing, Top Two Runoff. This is not to
say that TTR is perfect, it isn't.

What Austen-Smith has done, and he's not the first, is to confuse a
potential analytical technique (the translation of individual
preference orders, presumably sincere, into an overall social
preference order) with a political system, whereby a community makes
decisions. It turns out that Social Preference Order isn't even very
useful, because "order" neglects, entirely, preference strength. Far
more useful would be, for example, a knowledge of the actual impact
of each decision on each member of the society. Then, with some
system of making individual welfare commensurable across the society
-- not a simple problem, to be sure, but there are reasonable
approaches -- one can determine a measure of overall benefit or loss
from each possible decision. What the Range Voting people have done
is to call the Range Vote a "Voter Satisfaction" measure. I.e., when
you vote for a candidate, you are expressing your expected
satisfaction with the election result, with, say, 10 indicating
maximum satisfaction, and 0 indicating minimum. The expression for
each candidate is unconstrained by the expression for any other
candidate, but, of course, these are votes. It is as if, in such a
system, you are casting ten votes, or, a better analysis, fractions
of a vote, i.e., for each candidate, you are casting a vote in the
range of 0 to 1. Thus, Approval Voting is a limiting case, it is
simply Range Voting with only two possible "ratings."

Right away those who have been accustomed to using "election
criteria" to judge election methods, when Brams proposed Approval
Voting as a "strategy-free voting method," noticed that the sacred
cow, the Majority Criterion, was apparently violated by Approval
Voting. This was often translated into violation of "Majority Rule,"
FairVote propaganda does that, in criticizing Approval. But "Majority
Rule," as I noted above, involves a bivalued choice. Approval
violations of the Majority Criterion, allegedly -- there are problems
involved in the definition of the Majority Criterion -- involve a
situation where more than one candidate has been approved by a
majority. If that's considered a problem (it's debatable), it's easy
to fix, in a manner that would cover nearly every real situation: a
runoff. But in real political elections, multiple majorities can be
expected to be extraordinarily rare. As I've written, we should be so
lucky. In U.S. Presidential 2000, for example, if the method in
Florida had been Approval (think about it! no overvoting problem!
Just Count the Votes!), multiple majorities would have required a
significant number of voters to vote for both Bush and Gore. How
likely is that? No, we'd see Nader/Gore, or Bush/Buchanan or maybe
Bush/Libertarian, and some other combinations, much more commonly.

In any case, methods like this are a simple counterexample to the
nonsense Austen-Smith has written about. I haven't examined his math,
his results may be valid within the restricted field he sets, but the
serious problem with his paper and his affidavit is that he draws
unwarranted assumptions from Arrow's Theorem and from his own work.
His work is far from general, but rather was more appropriate when it
was written, a great deal of work has been done since then. It is no
longer reasonable for someone familiar with the current work to make
the claims he makes, and his testimony could be, I suspect, and
should be, I'd assert, impeached on that basis.

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Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
2008-11-09 20:07:48 UTC
Permalink
At 01:23 PM 11/6/2008, Kathy Dopp wrote:

>The third doc is by the Minneapolis, MN City attorney.

11SuplementaryReplyMemoinSupportofMotionforSummaryJudgment.pdf

This document follows the same errors that Austen-Smith promoted, not
surprisingly.

It notes that plaintiff has asserted monotonicity failure as a
problem of IRV. I'll note, right away, that, unless this is tightly
correlated with the language of Brown v. Smallwood, this may have
been poor legal strategy.

As you may know, I think that Brown v. Smallwood is ripe for
reversal, and that public policy would indicate that we should
support total reversal, and not what defendants have been seeking,
which is partial reversal, or specification of the BvS result to
other than sequential elimination methods which satisfy Later-no-Harm
and which only consider, at most, one vote at a time, during the
process. (This would clearly be a reversal of the original thinking
in Brown v. Smallwood; FairVote has been arguing from dicta that can
be read as referring to Later-no-Harm, but there is other language in
BvS that very clearly proscribes all forms of alternative vote.)

As distinct from Bucklin Voting -- or many other possible reforms,
such as Approval, Range Voting, or Concorcet methods, which still, in
the end, only *apply* one vote from each voter, but which may
consider all of them in the process. A result as desired by the
defendants would damage election method reform in Minnesota for many
years to come, I'd expect; the only silver lining is that Brown v.
Smallwood has no application outside of Minnesota and was,
essentially, a rogue decision, out of step with other states.

Brown v. Smallwood clearly stood for the principle of one person, one
vote, totally and completely, as to any single election. It did not
allow any "alternative" votes. IRV flies directly in the face of BvS,
and FairVote propaganda, prior to the challenge, simply dismissed
this, encouraging Minneapolis, for example, to disregard the advice
of its own attorney (in advice given prior to the adoption).

There is a possibility that monotonicity failure can be connected to
the specific arguments given in Brown v. Smallwood by the court
majority. I'd have to study that in particular, but I consider it
only a thin possibility.

As to immediate practical result, I'm with FairVote. IRV should be
allowed in Minneapolis, providing only that it was properly adopted
(BvS aside). Brown v. Smallwood should be tossed, and, once again,
Bucklin voting, which is far, far simpler to count than IRV, and
which has superior performance to IRV (slightly), should be on the table.

Note that a finding for the plaintiffs in this will, in my opinion,
damage future voting reform in Minnesota. I very much dislike IRV, in
comparison to top-two runoff, a vastly superior method, which it is
replacing. (If that is what Minneapolis had, I haven't checked, but
this is what has been replaced in every other election held, I think,
since San Francisco started up a few years ago.).

My concern is that FairVote will prevail on their arguments such that
sequential elimination preferential voting will be considered legal,
but not any other form of preferential voting, thus giving us
Later-no-harm, a minor and quite controversial "benefit," instead of
such basics as Condorcet compliance (which, if you are going to use
pure preferential ballots, is truly fundamental, and we only go
beyond Condorcet compliance when we consider preference strength,
where, in the end, the Condorcet criterion turns out to be shallow,
making sense only when preferences are strict and equal.)

The attorney attacks Ms. Dopps' competency as an expert witness.
That's probably cogent; that is, it seems reasonably likely to
prevail. The matters at issue here are constitutional ones and, as
the city attorney notes, such problems as cost or election security
are irrelevant.

I write a lot, and, believe me, were I writing for an affidavit to
file with a court, you'd see far less text. What I might think about
contributing, if there is time, is an analysis of Brown v. Smallwood
and why it was defective, as well as the deficiency of FairVote
arguments attempting to discriminate between Bucklin voting (then
called "preferential voting," same name as IRV was known as) and IRV
based on sequential elimination.

This would be an argument for the defense, though.

But credentials, I have none. I think the monotonicity issue, though,
is a huge red herring. Monotonicity failure by IRV is a *symptom*
that shows erratic behavior, not of great practical consequence,
because the circumstances where it would affect the result seem to be
rare; there are much more serious problems, specifically Center
Squeeze. But Plurality, of course, exhibits Center Squeeze.

IRV is really a fancy, expensive, form of Plurality, unfortunately,
once we start to look at how it actually works in real nonpartisan elections.

There is an interesting method being used, now, in some states, which
FairVote is calling IRV, though it is really a form of Contingent
Vote. It's not IRV at all, except that a contingent vote is cast by
absentee voters, to be used in a runoff election, if it is held. That
is a *separate* election, it has a different actual voting
electorate, with a separate campaign.

I think it may be unconstitutional, on totally different grounds than
are at issue in Minnesota, if it deprives absentee voters of the
right to later change their votes, as afforded to all other voters.
(However, if the process allows voters to specify whether or not they
were voting in the runoff or not, presumably on the enclosure
envelope, if they can keep the absentee runoff ballot and send it in
separately, then it would merely be a form of early voting in a
contingent election, affording them a right without a cost. I have
not read the details.)

What if this right, to cast a contingent ballot, or, alternatively,
to vote later, were afforded to all voters? That might look like IRV,
but it would actually be quite different. You would still see those
"comeback elections," which have been eliminated by IRV.

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Juho Laatu
2008-11-14 02:33:51 UTC
Permalink
--- On Fri, 14/11/08, Raph Frank <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Raph Frank <***@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [EM] Three rounds
> To: ***@yahoo.co.uk
> Cc: election-***@lists.electorama.com
> Date: Friday, 14 November, 2008, 12:26 AM
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:11 PM, Juho Laatu
> <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > This party list based method actually allowed the
> party supporters not to be rock solid supporters of the
> party. Those 7 A2>B>A1 voters were able to indicate
> that they preferred B to A1. And their favourite still won.
>
> Hmm, it is IRV except but it uses a different elimination
> order. A
> candidate from the smallest party is eliminated first (and
> presumably
> the candidate from the party with the fewest votes if the
> party has
> more than 1 vote).
>
> I assume that the party totals are re-calculated after each
> elimination? That means that the largest party doesn't
> automatically
> win (as their candidates would be eliminated last)

Yes, that was my assumption in this method. After C was eliminated those votes supported B. But that meant only 45 votes for B, which was this time not enough against the 55 votes of the A party.

The A party candidates were just like one combined "A1+A2" candidate in a regular IRV election until that candidate won. After that there was a second race between the candidates of the A party.

This approach clearly encourages formation of parties or other groupings/coalitions. If all candidates are either under a left wing or right wing coalition the bigger of those coalitions will win. (Hierarchies of groupings/parties/coalitions are possible too.)

This approach also encourages parties to nominate more than one candidate, as in the example where the A party won thanks to nominating a good compromise candidate (A2, that had less first place popularity than A1) that appealed also to the A2>B>A1 voters that would have voted for B (making B the winner) if A2 would not have been available.

Juho







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