OT: microwave vacuum

[Peter T. Daniels]

Yesterday I heated a bag of frozen vegetables (that I had accidentally brought
home instead of a "Steam-in bag"), by placing the contents into a microwave-
save plastic bowl (squarish with rounded corners), adding 1/4 cup water (per
the instructions), and putting on the lid attached by friction at two or three
of the corners, leaving the fourth unattached so that the steam could vent (as
when using a "steam-in bag," which puffs up during the zapping and deflates
during the cool-down time). When the cooking was done, the bowl was badly
deformed -- and the lid tightly attached at all four corners (and all around).
Removing the lid was not overly difficult, and there was no burst of steam; the
bowl recovered its usual shape; the contents were packed into less than the
volume they ought to have occupied.

Where did the vacuum come from?

There was much more liquid at the bottom than with a "steam-in bag," which
suggests that the lid sealed itself early in the process so that steam couldn't escape.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Yesterday I heated a bag of frozen vegetables

Cool!

Post by Peter T. Daniels
by placing the contents into a microwave-save plastic bowl

That was not safe.

Snipped rest of drool.

See the drooling linguist:
Loading Image...

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Yesterday I heated a bag of frozen vegetables (that I had accidentally brought
home instead of a "Steam-in bag"), by placing the contents into a microwave-
save plastic bowl (squarish with rounded corners), adding 1/4 cup water (per
the instructions), and putting on the lid attached by friction at two or three
of the corners, leaving the fourth unattached so that the steam could vent (as
when using a "steam-in bag," which puffs up during the zapping and deflates
during the cool-down time). When the cooking was done, the bowl was badly
deformed -- and the lid tightly attached at all four corners (and all around).
Removing the lid was not overly difficult, and there was no burst of steam; the
bowl recovered its usual shape; the contents were packed into less than the
volume they ought to have occupied.
Where did the vacuum come from?

Probably the pressure of steam kept the lid at least slightly open
until the microwave turned off, then it closed and the steam
condensed. You'll often see a similar thing if you heat some food in
a bowl covered in cling film - the film will form a deep concavity
when the microwave turns off.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
There was much more liquid at the bottom than with a "steam-in bag," which
suggests that the lid sealed itself early in the process so that steam couldn't escape.

Some steam must have been escaped to make it collapse afterwards.
More likely you just had more water than was really needed.

-- Richard

[Adam Funk]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Yesterday I heated a bag of frozen vegetables (that I had accidentally brought
home instead of a "Steam-in bag"), by placing the contents into a microwave-
save plastic bowl (squarish with rounded corners), adding 1/4 cup water (per
the instructions), and putting on the lid attached by friction at two or three
of the corners, leaving the fourth unattached so that the steam could vent (as
when using a "steam-in bag," which puffs up during the zapping and deflates
during the cool-down time). When the cooking was done, the bowl was badly
deformed -- and the lid tightly attached at all four corners (and all around).
Removing the lid was not overly difficult, and there was no burst of steam; the
bowl recovered its usual shape; the contents were packed into less than the
volume they ought to have occupied.
Where did the vacuum come from?

Probably the pressure of steam kept the lid at least slightly open
until the microwave turned off, then it closed and the steam
condensed. You'll often see a similar thing if you heat some food in
a bowl covered in cling film - the film will form a deep concavity
when the microwave turns off.

I think the same principle is used in home canning [1] of fruits &
vegetables to make the lids seal tightly.


[1] Is that BrE "bottling"? It doesn't come up often, but ISTR that's
the term. Of course, it should really be "jarring" since the
typical container is neither a can nor a bottle.

[the Omrud]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Yesterday I heated a bag of frozen vegetables (that I had accidentally brought
home instead of a "Steam-in bag"), by placing the contents into a microwave-
save plastic bowl (squarish with rounded corners), adding 1/4 cup water (per
the instructions), and putting on the lid attached by friction at two or three
of the corners, leaving the fourth unattached so that the steam could vent (as
when using a "steam-in bag," which puffs up during the zapping and deflates
during the cool-down time). When the cooking was done, the bowl was badly
deformed -- and the lid tightly attached at all four corners (and all around).
Removing the lid was not overly difficult, and there was no burst of steam; the
bowl recovered its usual shape; the contents were packed into less than the
volume they ought to have occupied.
Where did the vacuum come from?

Probably the pressure of steam kept the lid at least slightly open
until the microwave turned off, then it closed and the steam
condensed. You'll often see a similar thing if you heat some food in
a bowl covered in cling film - the film will form a deep concavity
when the microwave turns off.

I think the same principle is used in home canning [1] of fruits &
vegetables to make the lids seal tightly.
[1] Is that BrE "bottling"? It doesn't come up often, but ISTR that's
the term. Of course, it should really be "jarring" since the
typical container is neither a can nor a bottle.

Yes to both. You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Yesterday I heated a bag of frozen vegetables (that I had
accidentally brought home instead of a "Steam-in bag"), by placing
the contents into a microwave- save plastic bowl (squarish with
rounded corners), adding 1/4 cup water (per the instructions), and
putting on the lid attached by friction at two or three of the
corners, leaving the fourth unattached so that the steam could vent
(as when using a "steam-in bag," which puffs up during the zapping
and deflates during the cool-down time). When the cooking was done,
the bowl was badly deformed -- and the lid tightly attached at all
four corners (and all around). Removing the lid was not overly
difficult, and there was no burst of steam; the bowl recovered its
usual shape; the contents were packed into less than the volume
they ought to have occupied.
Where did the vacuum come from?

Probably the pressure of steam kept the lid at least slightly open
until the microwave turned off, then it closed and the steam
condensed. You'll often see a similar thing if you heat some food
in a bowl covered in cling film - the film will form a deep
concavity when the microwave turns off.

I think the same principle is used in home canning [1] of fruits &
vegetables to make the lids seal tightly.
[1] Is that BrE "bottling"? It doesn't come up often, but ISTR that's
the term. Of course, it should really be "jarring" since the
typical container is neither a can nor a bottle.

Yes to both. You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do. In the (UK) we might use jam-jars.
[wikipedia look-up]
ooh Heck! t'were inventificated over 'ere, as it 'appens!

[Richard Heathfield]

<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
In the (UK) we might use jam-jars.

That too.

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[wikipedia look-up]
ooh Heck! t'were inventificated over 'ere, as it 'appens!

Nay lad. 'Twere over thair! O'er Casselfud way!

[the Omrud]

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

[b***@shaw.ca]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

bill

[Ross]

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.
bill

My mother actually canned, as well as bottled/jarred, a lot of fruits
and vegetables in the early 50s. We had cupboards full of them in the
basement. I have the impression that the jars eventually prevailed, though
for what combination of technical and economic reasons, I'm not sure.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Ross

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud
My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

My mother actually canned, as well as bottled/jarred, a lot of fruits
and vegetables in the early 50s. We had cupboards full of them in the
basement. I have the impression that the jars eventually prevailed, though
for what combination of technical and economic reasons, I'm not sure.

You mean in actual tin cans (as well as jars)? What kind of equipment
did she have for that?

[Ross]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Ross

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud
My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

My mother actually canned, as well as bottled/jarred, a lot of fruits
and vegetables in the early 50s. We had cupboards full of them in the
basement. I have the impression that the jars eventually prevailed, though
for what combination of technical and economic reasons, I'm not sure.

You mean in actual tin cans (as well as jars)? What kind of equipment
did she have for that?

Damn, I wish I'd been taking notes and photos. I was pretty small at the time,
but I ate plenty of stuff from the cans in later years, so I know she really
did it. The method was not essentially different from what people have been
describing for bottling, but there was an additional gizmo that crimped
the lids onto the cans, while still hot. This may have been harder and
trickier work than with bottles, which is perhaps why she eventually gave
it up.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Ross

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Ross
My mother actually canned, as well as bottled/jarred, a lot of fruits
and vegetables in the early 50s. We had cupboards full of them in the
basement. I have the impression that the jars eventually prevailed, though
for what combination of technical and economic reasons, I'm not sure.

You mean in actual tin cans (as well as jars)? What kind of equipment
did she have for that?

Damn, I wish I'd been taking notes and photos. I was pretty small at the time,
but I ate plenty of stuff from the cans in later years, so I know she really
did it. The method was not essentially different from what people have been
describing for bottling, but there was an additional gizmo that crimped
the lids onto the cans, while still hot. This may have been harder and
trickier work than with bottles, which is perhaps why she eventually gave
it up.

Interesting, thanks!

[Cheryl]

Post by Ross

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.
bill

My mother actually canned, as well as bottled/jarred, a lot of fruits
and vegetables in the early 50s. We had cupboards full of them in the
basement. I have the impression that the jars eventually prevailed, though
for what combination of technical and economic reasons, I'm not sure.

I don't recall anyone ever canning at home. In fact, I thought "canning"
in this context was just another name for bottling or preserving. I
suspect now that the canning equipment was expensive and not easy to
obtain.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Ross

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.
bill

My mother actually canned, as well as bottled/jarred, a lot of fruits
and vegetables in the early 50s. We had cupboards full of them in the
basement. I have the impression that the jars eventually prevailed, though
for what combination of technical and economic reasons, I'm not sure.

I don't recall anyone ever canning at home. In fact, I thought "canning"
in this context was just another name for bottling or preserving. I
suspect now that the canning equipment was expensive and not easy to
obtain.

I "helped" when my grandmother canned jams and jellies. I watched the
melting paraffin to tell her when it was ready. The term "canning"
suggests tin cans, but glass containers were the only containers used.

The expense involved was the initial purchase of the glass containers
(Mason or Ball jars), the red rubber ring seals, and the blocks of
paraffin. The containers were re-used year after year, though.

When the contents of the container were used, the paraffin layer on
the top had to be removed. A great plaything for a youngster. They
could be chewed, molded into shapes, and made into missiles to be
hurled at siblings.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sat, 02 Dec 2017 11:50:13 -0500, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Cheryl

Post by Ross

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.
bill

My mother actually canned, as well as bottled/jarred, a lot of fruits
and vegetables in the early 50s. We had cupboards full of them in the
basement. I have the impression that the jars eventually prevailed, though
for what combination of technical and economic reasons, I'm not sure.

I don't recall anyone ever canning at home. In fact, I thought "canning"
in this context was just another name for bottling or preserving. I
suspect now that the canning equipment was expensive and not easy to
obtain.

I "helped" when my grandmother canned jams and jellies. I watched the
melting paraffin to tell her when it was ready. The term "canning"
suggests tin cans, but glass containers were the only containers used.
The expense involved was the initial purchase of the glass containers
(Mason or Ball jars), the red rubber ring seals, and the blocks of
paraffin. The containers were re-used year after year, though.
When the contents of the container were used, the paraffin layer on
the top had to be removed. A great plaything for a youngster. They
could be chewed, molded into shapes, and made into missiles to be
hurled at siblings.

Fake boogies and snot, although rubber cement works better.

[Janet]

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

So did my mother in law (well into the 1970's) My daughter in law
still does.

Janet.

Post by b***@shaw.ca
My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.
bill

[Cheryl]

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

Definitely Mason jars in Canada. I think there may have been (or maybe
still is?) a competitor which made Ball jars, but Mason jars were the norm.

Frugal women of my grandmother's generation sometimes re-used commercial
bottles instead, because Mason jars, although better, could be expensive.

If you want to put your jams and jellies and pickles in re-used bottles,
ensure that you pick ones that have gone through heat processing before,
so you know they're strong enough. Bottles that originally held
commercially-produced jam or jelly are good. A layer of melted paraffin
wax on top of your home-made jam provides an excellent seal, which
substitutes that provided by the covers of Mason jars.

[Tak To]

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Tak To

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

The clip-top, or wire-bail, Kilner jars:
Loading Image...
were not used for canning by my grandmother.

She used Ball jars:
Loading Image...

Ball jars were made in Muncie, Indiana where she was originally from.
The Ball Brothers started making these when Mason's patent ran out
about 1884.

The Mason jar, named after John Landis Mason, was invented and
patented in 1858. It's a molded glass jar The jar's mouth has a
screw thread on its outer perimeter to accept a metal ring (or
"band"). The band, when screwed down, presses a separate stamped
tin-plated steel disc-shaped lid against the jar's rim. An integral
rubber ring on the underside of the lid creates a hermetic seal.

Both styles are still available here, but the wire-bail (clip-top) are
sold for food storage and the Mason or Ball jar for canning because,
according to the Wiki article:

In home canning, food is packed into the jar, leaving some empty "head
space" between the level of food and the top of the jar. The lid is
placed on top of the jar with the integral rubber seal resting on the
rim. A band is screwed loosely over the lid, allowing air and steam to
escape. The jar is heat sterilized in boiling water or steam and the
lid is secured. The jar is then allowed to cool to room temperature.

The cooling of the contents creates a vacuum in the head space,
pulling the lid into tight contact with the jar rim to create a
hermetic seal. Once cooled, the band is removed to prevent residual
water between the jar threads and the lid from rusting the band. If
the jar seal is properly formed, internal vacuum will keep the lid
tightly on the jar. Most metal lids used today are slightly domed to
serve as a seal status indicator. The vacuum in a properly sealed
mason jar pulls the lid down to create a concave-shaped dome. An
improper or failed seal or microbial growth will cause the dome to pop
upward

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Tak To

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

http://www.kilnerjar.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/0/0025.513_1_2.jpg
were not used for canning by my grandmother.

We use them for dry goods storage ont he counter for things that need a seal
(like dry tea, brown sugar, etc). A frind of mine uses bottles like these for
beer he brews himself.

Post by Tony Cooper
https://ssli.ebayimg.com/images/g/IKsAAOSwXYtYvxwJ/s-l640.jpg

We use those quite a lot. Well, I say we, but my wife. She doens;t can, but
still seems to need those jars for ... readons.

Post by Tony Cooper
Ball jars were made in Muncie, Indiana where she was originally from.
The Ball Brothers started making these when Mason's patent ran out
about 1884.
The Mason jar, named after John Landis Mason, was invented and
patented in 1858. It's a molded glass jar The jar's mouth has a
screw thread on its outer perimeter to accept a metal ring (or
"band"). The band, when screwed down, presses a separate stamped
tin-plated steel disc-shaped lid against the jar's rim. An integral
rubber ring on the underside of the lid creates a hermetic seal.

Often a square of checkboard fabric is inserted between the ring and the lid.
This doesn't afect the seal if done correctly.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 3 Dec 2017 05:52:05 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Tak To

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

http://www.kilnerjar.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/0/0025.513_1_2.jpg
were not used for canning by my grandmother.

We use them for dry goods storage ont he counter for things that need a seal
(like dry tea, brown sugar, etc). A frind of mine uses bottles like these for
beer he brews himself.

We keep sugar in one, pasta shells in a couple, and I have three in
the garage that contain birdseed. Handy things to have around.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Post by Tak To

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

I think I remember Kilner jars as being screw top rather than clip top.
That would have been 60 to 70 years ago. I have seen clip tops more
recently.

Kilner UK currently sells both clip top jars and screw top jars:
http://www.kilnerjar.co.uk/kilner-range.html

[Katy Jennison]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Tak To

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

I think I remember Kilner jars as being screw top rather than clip top.
That would have been 60 to 70 years ago. I have seen clip tops more
recently.
http://www.kilnerjar.co.uk/kilner-range.html

I think (BICBW) that the screw-top jars we had in the 1950s were Kilner
jars, and the clip-down type were Forster jars. I have a vague
recollection of my father correcting one of us when we called a
clip-down one a Kilner jar. At the time, though, "Kilner jar" was
pretty generic for any vacuum-sealing jar one bottled fruit or
vegetables in.

[Tak To]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Tak To

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

I think I remember Kilner jars as being screw top rather than clip top.
That would have been 60 to 70 years ago. I have seen clip tops more
recently.

Screw top with a glass stopper (original Kilner) or a metal plate
(Mason)? Or both?

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
http://www.kilnerjar.co.uk/kilner-range.html

The "Anniversay Jars" have a glass stopper and the "Preserve
Jars" have a metal plate. The names seems to have a note of
sentimentality and practicality respectively. This is aligned
with my suspicion that Kilner has shifted to the Mason design
long time ago.

[Tak To]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Tak To

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

I think I remember Kilner jars as being screw top rather than clip top.
That would have been 60 to 70 years ago. I have seen clip tops more
recently.

Screw top with a glass stopper (original Kilner) or a metal plate
(Mason)? Or both?

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
http://www.kilnerjar.co.uk/kilner-range.html

It looks like that the "Anniversay Jars" have a glass stopper and
the "Preserve Jars" have a metal plate[1]. The names seems to have
a note of sentimentality and practicality respectively. This is
aligned with my suspicion that Kilner has shifted to the Mason
design long time ago.

[1] The plate may be made of some material other than metal.
Kilner identifies it only as a "replaceable vacuum seal".
It is clearly not glass though, as can be seen here:
Loading Image...

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Tak To

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

Continental Europe has Weck potten/jars, etc.
The inventor of it all was Nicolas Appert,
in response to a prize set by Napoleon Bonaparte. (1800)
Appert sold his patent rights, which were eventually
bought by Weck, who commercialised the process.

All unknown in Leftpondia,
the only wikip page on Nicolas Appert is in Dutch,

Jan

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

[]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Tak To
I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

Continental Europe has Weck potten/jars, etc.
The inventor of it all was Nicolas Appert,
in response to a prize set by Napoleon Bonaparte. (1800)
Appert sold his patent rights, which were eventually
bought by Weck, who commercialised the process.
All unknown in Leftpondia,
the only wikip page on Nicolas Appert is in Dutch,

This is in English
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weck_jar


(to all, esp leftpondians) do you have jam jars?
https://www.waresofknutsford.co.uk/copy-of-314ml-jam-jars-12oz-packs-of-
12-24-36-100-200-300-price-includes-lids-and-vat-1/

metal twist lid (with integral sealing ring)+ threaded glass jar



South pondians have YAN type of jar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fowler%27s_Vacola

Post by J. J. Lodder
Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Tak To
I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

Continental Europe has Weck potten/jars, etc.
The inventor of it all was Nicolas Appert,
in response to a prize set by Napoleon Bonaparte. (1800)
Appert sold his patent rights, which were eventually
bought by Weck, who commercialised the process.
All unknown in Leftpondia,
the only wikip page on Nicolas Appert is in Dutch,

This is in English
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weck_jar
(to all, esp leftpondians) do you have jam jars?
https://www.waresofknutsford.co.uk/copy-of-314ml-jam-jars-12oz-packs-of-
12-24-36-100-200-300-price-includes-lids-and-vat-1/
metal twist lid (with integral sealing ring)+ threaded glass jar
South pondians have YAN type of jar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fowler%27s_Vacola

In Frogpondia the good mother has what is called
'vintage jam jars' on your site.

They sell in the rest of Europe too,
with a metric content of 370 gram,

Jan

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Tak To
I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

Continental Europe has Weck potten/jars, etc.
The inventor of it all was Nicolas Appert,
in response to a prize set by Napoleon Bonaparte. (1800)
Appert sold his patent rights, which were eventually
bought by Weck, who commercialised the process.
All unknown in Leftpondia,
the only wikip page on Nicolas Appert is in Dutch,

This is in English
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weck_jar
(to all, esp leftpondians) do you have jam jars?
https://www.waresofknutsford.co.uk/copy-of-314ml-jam-jars-12oz-packs-

of-

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
12-24-36-100-200-300-price-includes-lids-and-vat-1/
metal twist lid (with integral sealing ring)+ threaded glass jar
South pondians have YAN type of jar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fowler%27s_Vacola

In Frogpondia the good mother has what is called
'vintage jam jars' on your site.
They sell in the rest of Europe too,
with a metric content of 370 gram,
Jan

Oh good lord:
https://www.waresofknutsford.co.uk/black-friday-108-x-370ml-1lb-jam-jars-
free-shipping/

(url says it all)

[the Omrud]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Tak To
I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

Continental Europe has Weck potten/jars, etc.
The inventor of it all was Nicolas Appert,
in response to a prize set by Napoleon Bonaparte. (1800)
Appert sold his patent rights, which were eventually
bought by Weck, who commercialised the process.
All unknown in Leftpondia,
the only wikip page on Nicolas Appert is in Dutch,

This is in English
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weck_jar
(to all, esp leftpondians) do you have jam jars?
https://www.waresofknutsford.co.uk/copy-of-314ml-jam-jars-12oz-packs-

of-

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
12-24-36-100-200-300-price-includes-lids-and-vat-1/
metal twist lid (with integral sealing ring)+ threaded glass jar
South pondians have YAN type of jar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fowler%27s_Vacola

In Frogpondia the good mother has what is called
'vintage jam jars' on your site.
They sell in the rest of Europe too,
with a metric content of 370 gram,
Jan

https://www.waresofknutsford.co.uk/black-friday-108-x-370ml-1lb-jam-jars-
free-shipping/

Oooh, that's only a dozen miles or so down the road from me.

[b***@shaw.ca]

On Sunday, December 3, 2017 at 6:36:40 AM UTC-8, J. J. Lodder wrote:.

Post by J. J. Lodder
Continental Europe has Weck potten/jars, etc.
The inventor of it all was Nicolas Appert,
in response to a prize set by Napoleon Bonaparte. (1800)
Appert sold his patent rights, which were eventually
bought by Weck, who commercialised the process.

That rings a distant bell. I recall from the 1950s that when my mother
preserved food, usually fruit, the process was called "wecken".

bill

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by b***@shaw.ca
On Sunday, December 3, 2017 at 6:36:40 AM UTC-8, J. J. Lodder wrote:.

Post by J. J. Lodder
Continental Europe has Weck potten/jars, etc.
The inventor of it all was Nicolas Appert,
in response to a prize set by Napoleon Bonaparte. (1800)
Appert sold his patent rights, which were eventually
bought by Weck, who commercialised the process.

That rings a distant bell. I recall from the 1950s that when my mother
preserved food, usually fruit, the process was called "wecken".

Still is, and some people still do it.
'Weck' has become generic in Dutch though
for all non-screw glass jars
with a rubber seal and some clip system

Jan

[Janet]

Post by Tak To

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

There are currently two sorts of Kilner jar on sale/in use in UK.
The first sort are glass jars with a screw top. The lid has three
parts, a glass disc, a rubber seal, and a metal ring that screws down
over the lid and rubber seal onto the glass jar, trapping the glass lid
over the rubber ring and making an airtight seal (a vacuum seal, if the
jar is filled while it and the contents are hot).
The later sort have the same glass lid and rubber seal but they are
held in place by a metal clip like this

Loading Image...

I associate Kilner jars with preserving salted veg,fruit in syrup, and
pickled onions. I only use them for storing wild mushrooms we've picked
and dried.

When making jam, marmalade, chutney, lemon curd etc I just use glass
jamjars with an airtight metal screw-on jamjar lid. The jars last
decades; the lids last about three uses then I replace them with new
ones.

No paraffin required with modern lids.

Janet

[j***@mdfs.net]

Post by Janet
When making jam, marmalade, chutney, lemon curd etc I just use glass
jamjars with an airtight metal screw-on jamjar lid. The jars last
decades; the lids last about three uses then I replace them with new
ones.

Ditto. I've always thought that was the "normal" way of doing things:
http://pics.mdfs.net/2012/09/120904.htm

[Tak To]

Post by Janet

Post by Tak To

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

There are currently two sorts of Kilner jar on sale/in use in UK.

There are three kinds based on Kilner's own website.
http://www.kilnerjar.co.uk/index.php

Post by Janet
The first sort are glass jars with a screw top. The lid has three
parts, a glass disc, a rubber seal, and a metal ring that screws down
over the lid and rubber seal onto the glass jar, trapping the glass lid
over the rubber ring and making an airtight seal (a vacuum seal, if the
jar is filled while it and the contents are hot).

Yes, that was the original Kilner design, called "Anniversary Jars"
on their site.

Post by Janet
The later sort have the same glass lid and rubber seal but they are
held in place by a metal clip like this
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41%2B7Z8Rp2bL.jpg

And then there is the third kind, also with a metal ring but using
a metal plate instead of a glass disc and is called "Preserve Jars"
on the site. This is the Mason design. A better view of the top
can be seen here
http://www.wilko.com/content/ebiz/wilkinsonplus/invt/0319127/0319127_l.jpg

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Tak To

Post by Janet

Post by Tak To

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by the Omrud

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by the Omrud
You bottle fruit in Kilner Jars.

No. I don't think we do.

Some do. I know several people who do.

My parents (in the English Midlands) bottled fruit in Kilner Jars in the
1950s and 1960s.

My impression is that in Canada in the last half century, most home-based
food preserving has been done in Mason jars, named after the American
who invented them in the 1850s. I suspect that's the case in the U.S.
as well.

I had to look up Kilner jars in Wikip to find out what they
were. It strikes me that the original Kilner jars are
not as practical as Mason jars or clip-top jars. I wonder
if when our Rightpondian friends say Kilner jars, they
mean the original Kilner jars, or Mason or clip-top jars
made by Kilner. Googling for images of "Kilner jar"
definitely yields a lot of clip-top ones.

There are currently two sorts of Kilner jar on sale/in use in UK.

There are three kinds based on Kilner's own website.
http://www.kilnerjar.co.uk/index.php

Post by Janet
The first sort are glass jars with a screw top. The lid has three
parts, a glass disc, a rubber seal, and a metal ring that screws down
over the lid and rubber seal onto the glass jar, trapping the glass lid
over the rubber ring and making an airtight seal (a vacuum seal, if the
jar is filled while it and the contents are hot).

Yes, that was the original Kilner design, called "Anniversary Jars"
on their site.

Post by Janet
The later sort have the same glass lid and rubber seal but they are
held in place by a metal clip like this
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41%2B7Z8Rp2bL.jpg

And then there is the third kind, also with a metal ring but using
a metal plate instead of a glass disc and is called "Preserve Jars"
on the site. This is the Mason design. A better view of the top
can be seen here
http://www.wilko.com/content/ebiz/wilkinsonplus/invt/0319127/0319127_l.jpg

Loosenig by screw does have it's advantages,
The clip type can be very hard to open.
Therefore the latest invention is a hollow rubber ring.
Cutting off the lip lets the air in.
(so the ring is not reusable)

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Yesterday I heated a bag of frozen vegetables (that I had accidentally brought
home instead of a "Steam-in bag"), by placing the contents into a microwave-
save plastic bowl (squarish with rounded corners), adding 1/4 cup water (per
the instructions), and putting on the lid attached by friction at two or three
of the corners, leaving the fourth unattached so that the steam could vent (as
when using a "steam-in bag," which puffs up during the zapping and deflates
during the cool-down time). When the cooking was done, the bowl was badly
deformed -- and the lid tightly attached at all four corners (and all around).
Removing the lid was not overly difficult, and there was no burst of steam; the
bowl recovered its usual shape; the contents were packed into less than the
volume they ought to have occupied.
Where did the vacuum come from?

Probably the pressure of steam kept the lid at least slightly open
until the microwave turned off, then it closed and the steam
condensed. You'll often see a similar thing if you heat some food in
a bowl covered in cling film - the film will form a deep concavity
when the microwave turns off.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
There was much more liquid at the bottom than with a "steam-in bag," which
suggests that the lid sealed itself early in the process so that steam couldn't escape.

Some steam must have been escaped to make it collapse afterwards.
More likely you just had more water than was really needed.

I repeated the procedure this evening. Turned out the lid was "permanently"
deformed by its experience the other day, so that the middle part was lower
and touched the pile of frozen vegetables and I couldn't even attach one corner
to test whether the sudden collapse with the turning off of the zapper was
responsible for the vacuum and sealage. I used less than the recommended amount
of water but still there was quite a puddle at the bottom. Seems like the
instructions don't take into account the amount of water that's expressed from
the frozen vegetable pieces themselves. Maybe next time I'll add no water and
see what happens.

[Colonel Edmund J. Burke]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Yesterday I heated a bag of frozen vegetables (that I had accidentally brought
home instead of a "Steam-in bag"), by placing the contents into a microwave-
save plastic bowl (squarish with rounded corners), adding 1/4 cup water (per
the instructions), and putting on the lid attached by friction at two or three
of the corners, leaving the fourth unattached so that the steam could vent (as
when using a "steam-in bag," which puffs up during the zapping and deflates
during the cool-down time). When the cooking was done, the bowl was badly
deformed -- and the lid tightly attached at all four corners (and all around).
Removing the lid was not overly difficult, and there was no burst of steam; the
bowl recovered its usual shape; the contents were packed into less than the
volume they ought to have occupied.
Where did the vacuum come from?

God made it.

[Quinn C]

Post by Colonel Edmund J. Burke

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Where did the vacuum come from?

God made it.

Therefore, nature abhors God.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Colonel Edmund J. Burke

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Yesterday I heated a bag of frozen vegetables (that I had accidentally
brought home instead of a "Steam-in bag"), by placing the contents into
a microwave- save plastic bowl (squarish with rounded corners), adding
1/4 cup water (per the instructions), and putting on the lid attached by
friction at two or three of the corners, leaving the fourth unattached
so that the steam could vent (as when using a "steam-in bag," which
puffs up during the zapping and deflates during the cool-down time).
When the cooking was done, the bowl was badly deformed -- and the lid
tightly attached at all four corners (and all around). Removing the lid
was not overly difficult, and there was no burst of steam; the bowl
recovered its usual shape; the contents were packed into less than the
volume they ought to have occupied.
Where did the vacuum come from?

God made it.

Only a very tiny one.
But then it exploded bigly,
to the greatest of all vacuums,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Yesterday I heated a bag of frozen vegetables (that I had accidentally
brought home instead of a "Steam-in bag"), by placing the contents into a
microwave- save plastic bowl (squarish with rounded corners), adding 1/4
cup water (per the instructions), and putting on the lid attached by
friction at two or three of the corners, leaving the fourth unattached so
that the steam could vent (as when using a "steam-in bag," which puffs up
during the zapping and deflates during the cool-down time). When the
cooking was done, the bowl was badly deformed -- and the lid tightly
attached at all four corners (and all around). Removing the lid was not
overly difficult, and there was no burst of steam; the bowl recovered its
usual shape; the contents were packed into less than the volume they ought
to have occupied.
Where did the vacuum come from?

It just fluctuated into being,

Jan