Louvain, Basset, Hastings doubts

[Andrew Lancaster via]

Dear List

Concerning the parentage of Hawise, the wife of Sir Philip Basset there
seem to be two accounts and I would like to call for opinions.

I note from a quick archives search that her descendancy if interest to
many followers of this list.

Well known sources such as Weis (Ancestral Roots of Certain American
Colonists) and ODNB say that her father must have been Mathew de Louvain
(giving her interesting Carolingian ancestry!).

But I became aware of another interpretation of what I think is the only
evidence being used for both positions. The excellent article by
Clarence-Smith used very detailed analysis of the records to resolve
many of the questions about the difficult Hastings family of Little
Easton in Essex, of whom Matthew was an heir, especially concerning the
property involved in this record.

Following through what became of that family he notes that Matthew's
Hastings mother still had an uncle, Ralph de Hastings, holding the manor
of Wix - a manor which had special importance to the family it seems.
Ralph was very active in official affairs of the family, continuing into
the times of Mathew's father, Geoffrey de Louvain.

Clarence-Smith then said that: "He was dead by Michaelmas 1210, leaving
a daughter under age whose custody and marriage had been granted to Alan
Bassett for 100 marks. It is not therefore surprising to find at the
death of Sir Philip Basset of Wycombe, younger son of this Alan, in
1271, that he held under Sir Matthew de Lovaine the manor of Wix 'by
courtesy of England of the inheritance of Helewisia his wife'."

Her heir was Aline who married twice, to Hugh le Dispencer and to Roger
Bigod Earl of Norfolk, and Aline's heir, also named Hugh le Dispencer,
was a famous favourite to King Edward II, and "Wix was forfeited with
the rest of his possessions on his execution in 1326".

Source: Clarence Smith J. A., (1966), "Hastings of Little Easton (part
1)", Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2, Part 1.

As far as I can see, all sources which claim Mathew as the father of
Hawise are taking the same document and presuming that the father must
be the overlord of Wix, ignoring the possibility that the family had
enfeoffed a cadet branch which evidently was expected to inherit.

Am I missing anything or should standard pedigrees be corrected or at
least considered uncertain? Are there any other documents relevant to
the case?


Best Regards

Andrew Lancaster

[Andrew Lancaster via]

Dear List

It seems a good idea to add the sourcing from Clarence-Smith's footnotes:

1. For the death 1210, he cites the Pipe Rolls, PRS 26 NS, p.35
2. For the information at the death of Philip Basset, IPM 56 H3,
Calendar I, No. 807, p.273

Going beyond the quotation I already passed, Clarence-Smith points out
that Heloise may have been named after her grandmother, and that the IPM
shows she pre-deceased Philip. In a footnote he also mentions that there
is a charter by the Prioress of Wix to the lord Philip Basset and
Helewisia his wife (New Monastican IV, p.515, IV). In the context of the
running article I read this as more evidence of the link to Ralph de
Hastings.

Relevant to my post here there is then a long footnote about other
theories, which I should now quote in full:

"G. W. Watson in the article on Despenser in the Complete Peerage, IV,
p.261, says that Sir Hugh Despenser married "Aline, da. & h. of Sir
Philip Basset of Wycombe, Bucks.... by his first wife Wawise, da. of Sir
Matthew de Lonavine of Little Easton, Essex," to which is appended a
footnote: "She had, in free marriage, the manor of Wix, Essex, by the
service of 20s. a year. Some genealogists say that she was da. of John
de Grey of Eaton, Bucks." Her fathering on Sir Matthew de Lovaine has no
other support than the quite unwarranted assumption that she held Wix in
free marriage: in fact she held it by inheritance as the Inquisition
specifies, and Sir Matthew was her overlord but not her father."

So having noticed this footnote, I suppose this is also a discussion
about a potential correction to CP. (I had not noticed this footnote
when writing my original post.)

Best Regards
Andrew

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
Clarence-Smith then said that: "He was dead by Michaelmas 1210,
leaving a daughter under age whose custody and marriage had been
granted to Alan Bassett for 100 marks. It is not therefore surprising
to find at the death of Sir Philip Basset of Wycombe, younger son of
this Alan, in 1271, that he held under Sir Matthew de Lovaine the
manor of Wix 'by courtesy of England of the inheritance of Helewisia
his wife'."
Source: Clarence Smith J. A., (1966), "Hastings of Little Easton (part
1)", Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2, Part 1.

[John Watson]

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
Dear List
1. For the death 1210, he cites the Pipe Rolls, PRS 26 NS, p.35
2. For the information at the death of Philip Basset, IPM 56 H3,
Calendar I, No. 807, p.273
Going beyond the quotation I already passed, Clarence-Smith points out
that Heloise may have been named after her grandmother, and that the IPM
shows she pre-deceased Philip. In a footnote he also mentions that there
is a charter by the Prioress of Wix to the lord Philip Basset and
Helewisia his wife (New Monastican IV, p.515, IV). In the context of the
running article I read this as more evidence of the link to Ralph de
Hastings.
Relevant to my post here there is then a long footnote about other
"G. W. Watson in the article on Despenser in the Complete Peerage, IV,
p.261, says that Sir Hugh Despenser married "Aline, da. & h. of Sir
Philip Basset of Wycombe, Bucks.... by his first wife Wawise, da. of Sir
Matthew de Lonavine of Little Easton, Essex," to which is appended a
footnote: "She had, in free marriage, the manor of Wix, Essex, by the
service of 20s. a year. Some genealogists say that she was da. of John
de Grey of Eaton, Bucks." Her fathering on Sir Matthew de Lovaine has no
other support than the quite unwarranted assumption that she held Wix in
free marriage: in fact she held it by inheritance as the Inquisition
specifies, and Sir Matthew was her overlord but not her father."
So having noticed this footnote, I suppose this is also a discussion
about a potential correction to CP. (I had not noticed this footnote
when writing my original post.)
Best Regards
Andrew

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
Clarence-Smith then said that: "He was dead by Michaelmas 1210,
leaving a daughter under age whose custody and marriage had been
granted to Alan Bassett for 100 marks. It is not therefore surprising
to find at the death of Sir Philip Basset of Wycombe, younger son of
this Alan, in 1271, that he held under Sir Matthew de Lovaine the
manor of Wix 'by courtesy of England of the inheritance of Helewisia
his wife'."
Source: Clarence Smith J. A., (1966), "Hastings of Little Easton (part
1)", Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2, Part 1.

Dear Andrew,

A few observations.

If Hawise was the daughter of Sir Matthew de Louvain, then the Sir Matthew de Louvain mentioned as one of the overlords of Wix in the 1271 ipm of Sir Philip Basset, was her brother. Sir Matthew de Louvain died shortly before 11 December 1261, leaving a son and heir Matthew aged 24 and more (CIPM, i., no. 523). He died before 24 May 1302 (CIPM, iv, no. 97).

ODNB says that Hawise died before 1254-5, when Philip Basset was married to Ela, the daughter of William Longespée, earl of Salisbury and calls her Helewisa de Lovaine without any parentage.

I think that the history of Wix is more complicated than appears in some sources. There may have been more than one manor there, or the manor was held in parts.
1198, In Easter Term 9 Richard I, Ralph de Cornhill and Alice his wife, daughter of Robert de Hastings, were involved in a suit concerning half a knight's fee in Wix with Ralph de Hastings, brother of Robert de Hastings (CRR, i, 61). In Trinity Term 1200-1, Godfrey de Louvain and Alice his wife (widow of Ralph de Cornhill), granted half a knight's fee in Wix to Ralph de Hastings, who granted part of it to William Carbonel (Feet of Fines Essex, i, 23). In 1203, Sewal de Oseville quitclaimed half a knight's fee in Wix to Ralph de Hastings (ibid, 48). In Trinity Term 1203-4, Ralph de Hastings granted half a knight's fee in Wix, formerly held by Alexander de Waham, to Sewal de Oseville (ibid, 33). In Trinity Term 1246-7, the prioress of Wix exchanged land and woods in Wix with Philip Basset and Helewise his wife, (which lands were of the inheritance of Helewise) (ibid, 156).

In 1289, the inquisition post mortem of Aline la Despenser, daughter of Philip Basset shows her as holding the manor of Wykes, "whence are paid of yearly rent, for the guard of the castle of Colcestre pertaining to the farm of the hundred of Tendring 12s., to Sir Matthew de Lovaine 10s., and to John Carbonel 14s." (CIPM, ii, no. 389). The ipm of Sir Mathew de Louvain in June 1302 shows Hugh le Despenser holding of him, 1 carucate of land in Wix for half a knight's fee and paying 10s. yearly (CIPM, iv, no. 97).

This half a knight's fee in Wix held by the Despensers would appear to be the same half fee disputed between Ralph de Cornhill, his wife Alice de Hastings and Ralph de Hastings in 1198.

Regards,
John

[taf]

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
As far as I can see, all sources which claim Mathew as the father of
Hawise are taking the same document and presuming that the father must
be the overlord of Wix, ignoring the possibility that the family had
enfeoffed a cadet branch which evidently was expected to inherit.

This has always been sort of a pet peeve of mine - it is all too common to see genealogical connections made based solely on the holding of land, under the supposition that it must have been directly inherited. With trusts, fines, leases and enfeoffments, this simply cannot be assumed. That these frequently involve relatives of the primary landholder makes it all the harder to sort out.

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
Am I missing anything or should standard pedigrees be corrected or at
least considered uncertain? Are there any other documents relevant to
the case?

I wish I could help, but I find nothing useful.

taf

[Andrew Lancaster via]

My thanks to taf and John Watson for their posts.

Can I take it that both of you agree that at least the standard
genealogy needs to be considered as less likely to be correct than the
one proposed by Clarence-Smith?

(Most common position on the internet is that Aline is daughter to
Matthew de Louvaine, lord of the Barony of Little Easton which included Wix.

Clarence-Smith says she was daughter to Matthew's uncle and tenant Ralph
de Hastings of Wix, who was known to have had an heiress who had been
bought by the Bassets.)

Or maybe I should ask if anyone can think of an objection to that position?

By the way I do agree that the Wix manor had parts. If anyone wants to
read a copy of the Clarence Smith two part article let me know, because
it covers many Wix records.

Regards

Andrew

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
"G. W. Watson in the article on Despenser in the Complete Peerage, IV,
p.261, says that Sir Hugh Despenser married "Aline, da. & h. of Sir
Philip Basset of Wycombe, Bucks.... by his first wife Wawise, da. of
Sir Matthew de Lonavine of Little Easton, Essex," to which is appended
a footnote: "She had, in free marriage, the manor of Wix, Essex, by
the service of 20s. a year. Some genealogists say that she was da. of
John de Grey of Eaton, Bucks." Her fathering on Sir Matthew de Lovaine
has no other support than the quite unwarranted assumption that she
held Wix in free marriage: in fact she held it by inheritance as the
Inquisition specifies, and Sir Matthew was her overlord but not her
father."
So having noticed this footnote, I suppose this is also a discussion
about a potential correction to CP. (I had not noticed this footnote
when writing my original post.)
Best Regards
Andrew

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
Clarence-Smith then said that: "He was dead by Michaelmas 1210,
leaving a daughter under age whose custody and marriage had been
granted to Alan Bassett for 100 marks. It is not therefore surprising
to find at the death of Sir Philip Basset of Wycombe, younger son of
this Alan, in 1271, that he held under Sir Matthew de Lovaine the
manor of Wix 'by courtesy of England of the inheritance of Helewisia
his wife'."
Source: Clarence Smith J. A., (1966), "Hastings of Little Easton
(part 1)", Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2,
Part 1.

[taf]

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
My thanks to taf and John Watson for their posts.
Can I take it that both of you agree that at least the standard
genealogy needs to be considered as less likely to be correct than the
one proposed by Clarence-Smith?

I would not put my position that strong without reading or rereading the scholarly underpinnings of the 'preferred' version and C-S's alternative. I would say that anyone who draws a conclusion based solely on landholding (as opposed to documented inheritance) without taking the possibility of enfeoffment into account, has left a noteworthy gap in their analysis.

taf

[John Watson]

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
My thanks to taf and John Watson for their posts.
Can I take it that both of you agree that at least the standard
genealogy needs to be considered as less likely to be correct than the
one proposed by Clarence-Smith?
(Most common position on the internet is that Aline is daughter to
Matthew de Louvaine, lord of the Barony of Little Easton which included Wix.
Clarence-Smith says she was daughter to Matthew's uncle and tenant Ralph
de Hastings of Wix, who was known to have had an heiress who had been
bought by the Bassets.)
Or maybe I should ask if anyone can think of an objection to that position?
By the way I do agree that the Wix manor had parts. If anyone wants to
read a copy of the Clarence Smith two part article let me know, because
it covers many Wix records.
Regards
Andrew

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
"G. W. Watson in the article on Despenser in the Complete Peerage, IV,
p.261, says that Sir Hugh Despenser married "Aline, da. & h. of Sir
Philip Basset of Wycombe, Bucks.... by his first wife Wawise, da. of
Sir Matthew de Lonavine of Little Easton, Essex," to which is appended
a footnote: "She had, in free marriage, the manor of Wix, Essex, by
the service of 20s. a year. Some genealogists say that she was da. of
John de Grey of Eaton, Bucks." Her fathering on Sir Matthew de Lovaine
has no other support than the quite unwarranted assumption that she
held Wix in free marriage: in fact she held it by inheritance as the
Inquisition specifies, and Sir Matthew was her overlord but not her
father."
So having noticed this footnote, I suppose this is also a discussion
about a potential correction to CP. (I had not noticed this footnote
when writing my original post.)
Best Regards
Andrew

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
Clarence-Smith then said that: "He was dead by Michaelmas 1210,
leaving a daughter under age whose custody and marriage had been
granted to Alan Bassett for 100 marks. It is not therefore surprising
to find at the death of Sir Philip Basset of Wycombe, younger son of
this Alan, in 1271, that he held under Sir Matthew de Lovaine the
manor of Wix 'by courtesy of England of the inheritance of Helewisia
his wife'."
Source: Clarence Smith J. A., (1966), "Hastings of Little Easton
(part 1)", Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2,
Part 1.

Dear Andrew,

Clarence Smith's evidence that Ralph de Hastings was dead in 1210 and that his heiress was in the custody of Alan Basset is presumably taken from the Pipe Rolls of 12 John: 1209-1210, to which I have no access at the moment. (There is nothing in the fine rolls, close rolls, patent rolls, etc.) If anyone can confirm this, then I think it is a reasonable assumption that Hawise, first wife of Philip Basset was the daughter of Ralph de Hastings and not a daughter of Matthew de Louvain. She was presumably named after her grandmother, Hawise wife of William fitz Robert.

Regards,
John

[Andrew Lancaster]

Post by John Watson

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
My thanks to taf and John Watson for their posts.
Can I take it that both of you agree that at least the standard
genealogy needs to be considered as less likely to be correct than the
one proposed by Clarence-Smith?
(Most common position on the internet is that Aline is daughter to
Matthew de Louvaine, lord of the Barony of Little Easton which included Wix.
Clarence-Smith says she was daughter to Matthew's uncle and tenant Ralph
de Hastings of Wix, who was known to have had an heiress who had been
bought by the Bassets.)
Or maybe I should ask if anyone can think of an objection to that position?
By the way I do agree that the Wix manor had parts. If anyone wants to
read a copy of the Clarence Smith two part article let me know, because
it covers many Wix records.
Regards
Andrew

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
"G. W. Watson in the article on Despenser in the Complete Peerage, IV,
p.261, says that Sir Hugh Despenser married "Aline, da. & h. of Sir
Philip Basset of Wycombe, Bucks.... by his first wife Wawise, da. of
Sir Matthew de Lonavine of Little Easton, Essex," to which is appended
a footnote: "She had, in free marriage, the manor of Wix, Essex, by
the service of 20s. a year. Some genealogists say that she was da. of
John de Grey of Eaton, Bucks." Her fathering on Sir Matthew de Lovaine
has no other support than the quite unwarranted assumption that she
held Wix in free marriage: in fact she held it by inheritance as the
Inquisition specifies, and Sir Matthew was her overlord but not her
father."
So having noticed this footnote, I suppose this is also a discussion
about a potential correction to CP. (I had not noticed this footnote
when writing my original post.)
Best Regards
Andrew

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
Clarence-Smith then said that: "He was dead by Michaelmas 1210,
leaving a daughter under age whose custody and marriage had been
granted to Alan Bassett for 100 marks. It is not therefore surprising
to find at the death of Sir Philip Basset of Wycombe, younger son of
this Alan, in 1271, that he held under Sir Matthew de Lovaine the
manor of Wix 'by courtesy of England of the inheritance of Helewisia
his wife'."
Source: Clarence Smith J. A., (1966), "Hastings of Little Easton
(part 1)", Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2,
Part 1.

Dear Andrew,
Clarence Smith's evidence that Ralph de Hastings was dead in 1210 and that his heiress was in the custody of Alan Basset is presumably taken from the Pipe Rolls of 12 John: 1209-1210, to which I have no access at the moment. (There is nothing in the fine rolls, close rolls, patent rolls, etc.) If anyone can confirm this, then I think it is a reasonable assumption that Hawise, first wife of Philip Basset was the daughter of Ralph de Hastings and not a daughter of Matthew de Louvain. She was presumably named after her grandmother, Hawise wife of William fitz Robert.
Regards,
John

John, TAF, just for completeness, I'll post the link to Clarence-Smith which came on line since the discussion started:

http://esah1852.org.uk/all-published-contents/item/116-3rd-series-vol-2-1966-1970-contents-list

I wonder if anyone has had a chance to look at the King John Pipe Rolls. These still seem to be missing on the internet?

Andrew

[Andrew Lancaster via]

Again thanks to taf and John Watson

John: Yes, for the death 1210, Clarence-Smith cites the Pipe Rolls, PRS
26 NS, p.35.

Taf: "I would not put my position that strong without reading or
rereading the scholarly underpinnings of the 'preferred' version and
C-S's alternative. I would say that anyone who draws a conclusion based
solely on landholding (as opposed to documented inheritance) without
taking the possibility of enfeoffment into account, has left a
noteworthy gap in their analysis."

Yes, but the snippets of evidence are small and the argument seems
simple. He says CP asserts it was a free marriage when it was not. And
then secondly he points to the clear evidence for an enfeoffed heiress
being bought by the Bassets. "[Ralph] was dead by Michaelmas 1210,
leaving a daughter under age whose custody and marriage had been granted
to Alan Bassett for 100 marks. It is not therefore surprising to find at
the death of Sir Philip Basset of Wycombe, younger son of this Alan, in
1271, that he held under Sir Matthew de Lovaine the manor of Wix 'by
courtesy of England of the inheritance of Helewisia his wife'."

Clarence Smith J. A., (1966), "Hastings of Little Easton (part 1)",
Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2, Part 1.

For the information at the death of Philip Basset, IPM 56 H3, Calendar
I, No. 807, p.273

He names the place in CP and gives a clear argument:
"G. W. Watson in the article on Despenser in the Complete Peerage, IV,
p.261, says that Sir Hugh Despenser married "Aline, da. & h. of Sir
Philip Basset of Wycombe, Bucks.... by his first wife Wawise, da. of Sir
Matthew de Lonavine of Little Easton, Essex," to which is appended a
footnote: "She had, in free marriage, the manor of Wix, Essex, by the
service of 20s. a year. Some genealogists say that she was da. of John
de Grey of Eaton, Bucks." Her fathering on Sir Matthew de Lovaine has no
other support than the quite unwarranted assumption that she held Wix in
free marriage: in fact she held it by inheritance as the Inquisition
specifies, and Sir Matthew was her overlord but not her father."

Best Regards
Andrew

[Polly]

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
Dear List
Concerning the parentage of Hawise, the wife of Sir Philip Basset there
seem to be two accounts and I would like to call for opinions.
I note from a quick archives search that her descendancy if interest to
many followers of this list.
Well known sources such as Weis (Ancestral Roots of Certain American
Colonists) and ODNB say that her father must have been Mathew de Louvain
(giving her interesting Carolingian ancestry!).
But I became aware of another interpretation of what I think is the only
evidence being used for both positions. The excellent article by
Clarence-Smith used very detailed analysis of the records to resolve
many of the questions about the difficult Hastings family of Little
Easton in Essex, of whom Matthew was an heir, especially concerning the
property involved in this record.
Following through what became of that family he notes that Matthew's
Hastings mother still had an uncle, Ralph de Hastings, holding the manor
of Wix - a manor which had special importance to the family it seems.
Ralph was very active in official affairs of the family, continuing into
the times of Mathew's father, Geoffrey de Louvain.
Clarence-Smith then said that: "He was dead by Michaelmas 1210, leaving
a daughter under age whose custody and marriage had been granted to Alan
Bassett for 100 marks. It is not therefore surprising to find at the
death of Sir Philip Basset of Wycombe, younger son of this Alan, in
1271, that he held under Sir Matthew de Lovaine the manor of Wix 'by
courtesy of England of the inheritance of Helewisia his wife'."
Her heir was Aline who married twice, to Hugh le Dispencer and to Roger
Bigod Earl of Norfolk, and Aline's heir, also named Hugh le Dispencer,
was a famous favourite to King Edward II, and "Wix was forfeited with
the rest of his possessions on his execution in 1326".
Source: Clarence Smith J. A., (1966), "Hastings of Little Easton (part
1)", Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2, Part 1.
As far as I can see, all sources which claim Mathew as the father of
Hawise are taking the same document and presuming that the father must
be the overlord of Wix, ignoring the possibility that the family had
enfeoffed a cadet branch which evidently was expected to inherit.
Am I missing anything or should standard pedigrees be corrected or at
least considered uncertain? Are there any other documents relevant to
the case?
Best Regards
Andrew Lancaster

I am wondering if there is any additional info about the correct wife for Sir Philip Basset...Hawise de Lovaine or Hawise de Hastings, daughter of Ralph? Because if the latter is right, then CP, VIII, 179, note a, is wrong. Thanks, Polly Zashin

[Andrew Lancaster]

Post by Polly

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
Dear List
Concerning the parentage of Hawise, the wife of Sir Philip Basset there
seem to be two accounts and I would like to call for opinions.
I note from a quick archives search that her descendancy if interest to
many followers of this list.
Well known sources such as Weis (Ancestral Roots of Certain American
Colonists) and ODNB say that her father must have been Mathew de Louvain
(giving her interesting Carolingian ancestry!).
But I became aware of another interpretation of what I think is the only
evidence being used for both positions. The excellent article by
Clarence-Smith used very detailed analysis of the records to resolve
many of the questions about the difficult Hastings family of Little
Easton in Essex, of whom Matthew was an heir, especially concerning the
property involved in this record.
Following through what became of that family he notes that Matthew's
Hastings mother still had an uncle, Ralph de Hastings, holding the manor
of Wix - a manor which had special importance to the family it seems.
Ralph was very active in official affairs of the family, continuing into
the times of Mathew's father, Geoffrey de Louvain.
Clarence-Smith then said that: "He was dead by Michaelmas 1210, leaving
a daughter under age whose custody and marriage had been granted to Alan
Bassett for 100 marks. It is not therefore surprising to find at the
death of Sir Philip Basset of Wycombe, younger son of this Alan, in
1271, that he held under Sir Matthew de Lovaine the manor of Wix 'by
courtesy of England of the inheritance of Helewisia his wife'."
Her heir was Aline who married twice, to Hugh le Dispencer and to Roger
Bigod Earl of Norfolk, and Aline's heir, also named Hugh le Dispencer,
was a famous favourite to King Edward II, and "Wix was forfeited with
the rest of his possessions on his execution in 1326".
Source: Clarence Smith J. A., (1966), "Hastings of Little Easton (part
1)", Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2, Part 1.
As far as I can see, all sources which claim Mathew as the father of
Hawise are taking the same document and presuming that the father must
be the overlord of Wix, ignoring the possibility that the family had
enfeoffed a cadet branch which evidently was expected to inherit.
Am I missing anything or should standard pedigrees be corrected or at
least considered uncertain? Are there any other documents relevant to
the case?
Best Regards
Andrew Lancaster

I am wondering if there is any additional info about the correct wife for Sir Philip Basset...Hawise de Lovaine or Hawise de Hastings, daughter of Ralph? Because if the latter is right, then CP, VIII, 179, note a, is wrong. Thanks, Polly Zashin

The timing of the question is good. I posted an internet a address a few days ago for an online version of the Clarence Smith article. I think that most doubts about this subject come from the fact that this article is not widely read.

[Andrew Lancaster]

Post by Andrew Lancaster

Post by Polly

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
Dear List
Concerning the parentage of Hawise, the wife of Sir Philip Basset there
seem to be two accounts and I would like to call for opinions.
I note from a quick archives search that her descendancy if interest to
many followers of this list.
Well known sources such as Weis (Ancestral Roots of Certain American
Colonists) and ODNB say that her father must have been Mathew de Louvain
(giving her interesting Carolingian ancestry!).
But I became aware of another interpretation of what I think is the only
evidence being used for both positions. The excellent article by
Clarence-Smith used very detailed analysis of the records to resolve
many of the questions about the difficult Hastings family of Little
Easton in Essex, of whom Matthew was an heir, especially concerning the
property involved in this record.
Following through what became of that family he notes that Matthew's
Hastings mother still had an uncle, Ralph de Hastings, holding the manor
of Wix - a manor which had special importance to the family it seems.
Ralph was very active in official affairs of the family, continuing into
the times of Mathew's father, Geoffrey de Louvain.
Clarence-Smith then said that: "He was dead by Michaelmas 1210, leaving
a daughter under age whose custody and marriage had been granted to Alan
Bassett for 100 marks. It is not therefore surprising to find at the
death of Sir Philip Basset of Wycombe, younger son of this Alan, in
1271, that he held under Sir Matthew de Lovaine the manor of Wix 'by
courtesy of England of the inheritance of Helewisia his wife'."
Her heir was Aline who married twice, to Hugh le Dispencer and to Roger
Bigod Earl of Norfolk, and Aline's heir, also named Hugh le Dispencer,
was a famous favourite to King Edward II, and "Wix was forfeited with
the rest of his possessions on his execution in 1326".
Source: Clarence Smith J. A., (1966), "Hastings of Little Easton (part
1)", Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2, Part 1.
As far as I can see, all sources which claim Mathew as the father of
Hawise are taking the same document and presuming that the father must
be the overlord of Wix, ignoring the possibility that the family had
enfeoffed a cadet branch which evidently was expected to inherit.
Am I missing anything or should standard pedigrees be corrected or at
least considered uncertain? Are there any other documents relevant to
the case?
Best Regards
Andrew Lancaster

I am wondering if there is any additional info about the correct wife for Sir Philip Basset...Hawise de Lovaine or Hawise de Hastings, daughter of Ralph? Because if the latter is right, then CP, VIII, 179, note a, is wrong. Thanks, Polly Zashin

The timing of the question is good. I posted an internet a address a few days ago for an online version of the Clarence Smith article. I think that most doubts about this subject come from the fact that this article is not widely read.

Looking at what was posted previously, taf's comment reminds us that there are scenarios possible which make it difficult or impossible to be 100% certain. I'd suggest that is common for this period and I would still say that Clarence-Smith's explanations give the best and most likely scenario. Of course I am open to other opinions, and I hope others will mention it if I am missing something.

[Polly]

Post by Andrew Lancaster

Post by Polly

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
Dear List
Concerning the parentage of Hawise, the wife of Sir Philip Basset there
seem to be two accounts and I would like to call for opinions.
I note from a quick archives search that her descendancy if interest to
many followers of this list.
Well known sources such as Weis (Ancestral Roots of Certain American
Colonists) and ODNB say that her father must have been Mathew de Louvain
(giving her interesting Carolingian ancestry!).
But I became aware of another interpretation of what I think is the only
evidence being used for both positions. The excellent article by
Clarence-Smith used very detailed analysis of the records to resolve
many of the questions about the difficult Hastings family of Little
Easton in Essex, of whom Matthew was an heir, especially concerning the
property involved in this record.
Following through what became of that family he notes that Matthew's
Hastings mother still had an uncle, Ralph de Hastings, holding the manor
of Wix - a manor which had special importance to the family it seems.
Ralph was very active in official affairs of the family, continuing into
the times of Mathew's father, Geoffrey de Louvain.
Clarence-Smith then said that: "He was dead by Michaelmas 1210, leaving
a daughter under age whose custody and marriage had been granted to Alan
Bassett for 100 marks. It is not therefore surprising to find at the
death of Sir Philip Basset of Wycombe, younger son of this Alan, in
1271, that he held under Sir Matthew de Lovaine the manor of Wix 'by
courtesy of England of the inheritance of Helewisia his wife'."
Her heir was Aline who married twice, to Hugh le Dispencer and to Roger
Bigod Earl of Norfolk, and Aline's heir, also named Hugh le Dispencer,
was a famous favourite to King Edward II, and "Wix was forfeited with
the rest of his possessions on his execution in 1326".
Source: Clarence Smith J. A., (1966), "Hastings of Little Easton (part
1)", Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2, Part 1.
As far as I can see, all sources which claim Mathew as the father of
Hawise are taking the same document and presuming that the father must
be the overlord of Wix, ignoring the possibility that the family had
enfeoffed a cadet branch which evidently was expected to inherit.
Am I missing anything or should standard pedigrees be corrected or at
least considered uncertain? Are there any other documents relevant to
the case?
Best Regards
Andrew Lancaster

I am wondering if there is any additional info about the correct wife for Sir Philip Basset...Hawise de Lovaine or Hawise de Hastings, daughter of Ralph? Because if the latter is right, then CP, VIII, 179, note a, is wrong. Thanks, Polly Zashin

The timing of the question is good. I posted an internet a address a few days ago for an online version of the Clarence Smith article. I think that most doubts about this subject come from the fact that this article is not widely read.

Thank you Mr. Lancaster. I have found the Smith articles. I have also found your extensive work on the Hastings family. I appreciate it very much! Polly

[Andrew Lancaster]

Post by Polly

Post by Andrew Lancaster

Post by Polly

Post by Andrew Lancaster via
Dear List
Concerning the parentage of Hawise, the wife of Sir Philip Basset there
seem to be two accounts and I would like to call for opinions.
I note from a quick archives search that her descendancy if interest to
many followers of this list.
Well known sources such as Weis (Ancestral Roots of Certain American
Colonists) and ODNB say that her father must have been Mathew de Louvain
(giving her interesting Carolingian ancestry!).
But I became aware of another interpretation of what I think is the only
evidence being used for both positions. The excellent article by
Clarence-Smith used very detailed analysis of the records to resolve
many of the questions about the difficult Hastings family of Little
Easton in Essex, of whom Matthew was an heir, especially concerning the
property involved in this record.
Following through what became of that family he notes that Matthew's
Hastings mother still had an uncle, Ralph de Hastings, holding the manor
of Wix - a manor which had special importance to the family it seems.
Ralph was very active in official affairs of the family, continuing into
the times of Mathew's father, Geoffrey de Louvain.
Clarence-Smith then said that: "He was dead by Michaelmas 1210, leaving
a daughter under age whose custody and marriage had been granted to Alan
Bassett for 100 marks. It is not therefore surprising to find at the
death of Sir Philip Basset of Wycombe, younger son of this Alan, in
1271, that he held under Sir Matthew de Lovaine the manor of Wix 'by
courtesy of England of the inheritance of Helewisia his wife'."
Her heir was Aline who married twice, to Hugh le Dispencer and to Roger
Bigod Earl of Norfolk, and Aline's heir, also named Hugh le Dispencer,
was a famous favourite to King Edward II, and "Wix was forfeited with
the rest of his possessions on his execution in 1326".
Source: Clarence Smith J. A., (1966), "Hastings of Little Easton (part
1)", Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2, Part 1.
As far as I can see, all sources which claim Mathew as the father of
Hawise are taking the same document and presuming that the father must
be the overlord of Wix, ignoring the possibility that the family had
enfeoffed a cadet branch which evidently was expected to inherit.
Am I missing anything or should standard pedigrees be corrected or at
least considered uncertain? Are there any other documents relevant to
the case?
Best Regards
Andrew Lancaster

I am wondering if there is any additional info about the correct wife for Sir Philip Basset...Hawise de Lovaine or Hawise de Hastings, daughter of Ralph? Because if the latter is right, then CP, VIII, 179, note a, is wrong. Thanks, Polly Zashin

The timing of the question is good. I posted an internet a address a few days ago for an online version of the Clarence Smith article. I think that most doubts about this subject come from the fact that this article is not widely read.

Thank you Mr. Lancaster. I have found the Smith articles. I have also found your extensive work on the Hastings family. I appreciate it very much! Polly

Hope they help Polly. for completeness here is also the FMG link for the related explanation which Rosie Bevan developed out of some of the same discussions and considerations (I think it was posted after the first posts in this thread): http://fmg.ac/projects/domesday-corrections/descendants-301-600#De%20Hastings%20entries%20pp.%20505-507