Django in the enterprise?

[Steven Elliott Jr]

Dear friends,
I apologize for writing this type of question to the community but I would appreciate any information you could pass on considering the breadth of knowledge within this group.
I know that the word “enterprise” gives some people the creeps, but I am curious to know if anyone has experience creating enterprise applications, similar to something like say… Java EE applications, which are highly concurrent, distributed applications with Django? I know Java has its own issues but its kind of viewed as THE enterprise framework and I think that’s unfortunate.
Some people say that Rails is a good replacement for Java EE but what about Django? Has anyone ever used it in this context? You only ever see pretty standard websites on djangosites.org and it seems like its capable of so much more. I am planning on scrapping some of our old systems which are written mostly on ASP.NET and some Java for something more easily maintainable. I started using Django for some other applications and find it to be fantastic for what I am using it for (Corporate news, intranet, etc.) internally but what about something like… an accounts receivable system, or a billing system, etc.
I would hate to see a framework such as this pigeon-holed into a category it doesn't need to be. It seems to be used for social media/networking, content-heavy sites, not so much data processing, etc. I feel that it has all the elements needed to start down this path. Anyone have any thoughts?

Thank you very much for your time.

Best,
Steven Elliott

[Shawn Milochik]

What do you mean by '...a good replacement for Java EE..."? Python is a language. Django is a framework written in Python. You can make any kind of site at all with them.

My company's Web applications do things like fund debit cards, communicate with bank APIs, calculate driving reimbursement amounts by distance and make the appropriate deposit, etc.

I'm probably just missing the point of your question. What I don't understand is the distinction you make between 'pretty standard' sites and sites that deal with accounts receivable. The only difference I see is that in one case someone wrote some accounts receivable functionality. I don't see that as any different from a site adding tags or comments. It's all just code.

Shawn

[Steven Elliott Jr]

@Shawn

Sorry if I was not clear with my question. It seems like a lot of sites that I have seen on djangosites are news sites, or content-driven sites like blogs, personal web pages, social networking-type sites like fluther.com, etc. I was just curious if anyone has every sat down and wrote a distributed application to handle the internal workings of a business. For instance in my company we administer a range of benefits to over a million participants. We have to do claims processing for health insurance claims, perform EDI transactions that are HIPAA compliant, administer 401(k) benefits, administer Pension benefits, etc. All of these things require system for the internal staff and for users from the outside to access. Employers need to pay for their employee's benefits, reconcile bills, participants need to check account balances, reallocate investments, etc. I was just wondering if anyone has used Django to do this (we host everything ourselves, btw).

Right now we have Java and ASP.NET doing most of the work for us but the systems are old and need updating. Not to mention budgetary constraints are big thing now. I used Django to write an intranet application and it was very nice and I think I can probably handle the other stuff, just wanted to draw on other's experience.

Thanks,
Steve

Post by Shawn Milochik
What do you mean by '...a good replacement for Java EE..."? Python is a language. Django is a framework written in Python. You can make any kind of site at all with them.
My company's Web applications do things like fund debit cards, communicate with bank APIs, calculate driving reimbursement amounts by distance and make the appropriate deposit, etc.
I'm probably just missing the point of your question. What I don't understand is the distinction you make between 'pretty standard' sites and sites that deal with accounts receivable. The only difference I see is that in one case someone wrote some accounts receivable functionality. I don't see that as any different from a site adding tags or comments. It's all just code.
Shawn
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[Tom Evans]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Steven Elliott Jr

Post by Steven Elliott Jr
@Shawn
Sorry if I was not clear with my question. It seems like a lot of sites that I have seen on djangosites are news sites, or content-driven sites like blogs, personal web pages, social networking-type sites like fluther.com, etc. I was just curious if anyone has every sat down and wrote a distributed application to handle the internal workings of a business. For instance in my company we administer a range of benefits to over a million participants. We have to do claims processing for health insurance claims, perform EDI transactions that are HIPAA compliant, administer 401(k) benefits, administer Pension benefits, etc. All of these things require system for the internal staff and for users from the outside to access. Employers need to pay for their employee's benefits, reconcile bills, participants need to check account balances, reallocate investments, etc. I was just wondering if anyone has used Django to do this (we host everything ourselves, btw).
Right now we have Java and ASP.NET doing most of the work for us but the systems are old and need updating. Not to mention budgetary constraints are big thing now. I used Django to write an intranet application and it was very nice and I think I can probably handle the other stuff, just wanted to draw on other's experience.
Thanks,
Steve

We used django to implement a SAML 2.0 compliant SSO identity
provider, which then provides federated logins and personal data
across our entire range of web products, ranging from django based
websites which do statistical report generation, to C++ applications
written as apache modules with our own web framework, also doing
report generation.

Django is just another web framework, what you do with it is up to you.

Cheers

Tom

[Andy McKay]

Post by Steven Elliott Jr
Right now we have Java and ASP.NET doing most of the work for us but the systems are old and need updating. Not to mention budgetary constraints are big thing now. I used Django to write an intranet application and it was very nice and I think I can probably handle the other stuff, just wanted to draw on other's experience.

Yes there are many large scale (in terms of data and complexity) running on Django. We've just completed a large "enterprise" project converting classic ASP to Django and its gone extremely well. It's not on djangosites because the NDA denies it.

What you might need to consider if you are pitching to management is making sure that training, consulting and support is available from companies (which it is).
--
Andy McKay, @clearwind
http://clearwind.ca/djangoski

[Steven Elliott Jr]

Thank you to all for your comments. It has been most helpful.

Post by Andy McKay

Post by Steven Elliott Jr
Right now we have Java and ASP.NET doing most of the work for us but the systems are old and need updating. Not to mention budgetary constraints are big thing now. I used Django to write an intranet application and it was very nice and I think I can probably handle the other stuff, just wanted to draw on other's experience.

Yes there are many large scale (in terms of data and complexity) running on Django. We've just completed a large "enterprise" project converting classic ASP to Django and its gone extremely well. It's not on djangosites because the NDA denies it.
What you might need to consider if you are pitching to management is making sure that training, consulting and support is available from companies (which it is).
--
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[Phlip]

Post by Steven Elliott Jr
Right now we have Java and ASP.NET doing most of the work for us but the systems are old and need updating. Not to mention budgetary constraints are big thing now. I used Django to write an intranet application and it was very nice and I think I can probably handle the other stuff, just wanted to draw on other's experience.

Those tools are clunky and hard to program, driving up the cost of
maintenance. Consider this pattern:

http://martinfowler.com/bliki/StranglerApplication.html

Each time someone requests a new feature, do it in Django instead, and
link it to the old system. (And use TDD to write it all.)

Eventually a new system will emerge, completely obscuring the old one.

And, yes, Django can do webservices and such, just like platforms with
much bigger advertising budgets.

--
Phlip
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand

[Steven Elliott Jr]

@Philip

Thanks for information -- very good advice. I appreciate all the input from everyone else as well. I intend to start using Django for almost everything going forward.

Thanks,
Steve

Post by Phlip

Post by Steven Elliott Jr
Right now we have Java and ASP.NET doing most of the work for us but the systems are old and need updating. Not to mention budgetary constraints are big thing now. I used Django to write an intranet application and it was very nice and I think I can probably handle the other stuff, just wanted to draw on other's experience.

Those tools are clunky and hard to program, driving up the cost of
http://martinfowler.com/bliki/StranglerApplication.html
Each time someone requests a new feature, do it in Django instead, and
link it to the old system. (And use TDD to write it all.)
Eventually a new system will emerge, completely obscuring the old one.
And, yes, Django can do webservices and such, just like platforms with
much bigger advertising budgets.
--
Phlip
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand
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[Dougal Matthews]

You may find this thread of django-developers interesting; "What The
Enterprise wants from Django"

http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers/browse_frm/thread/c89e028a536514d3

It's a discussion about some of the things that Django is missing that
the enterprise wants/needs - the good news is that the list is fairly short
and doesn't really contain surprises.

Dougal

Post by Steven Elliott Jr
Dear friends,
I apologize for writing this type of question to the community but I would
appreciate any information you could pass on considering the breadth of
knowledge within this group.
I know that the word “enterprise” gives some people the creeps, but I am
curious to know if anyone has experience creating enterprise applications,
similar to something like say… Java EE applications, which are highly
concurrent, distributed applications with Django? I know Java has its own
issues but its kind of viewed as THE enterprise framework and I think that’s
unfortunate.
Some people say that Rails is a good replacement for Java EE but what about
Django? Has anyone ever used it in this context? You only ever see pretty
standard websites on djangosites.org and it seems like its capable of so
much more. I am planning on scrapping some of our old systems which are
written mostly on ASP.NET and some Java for something more easily
maintainable. I started using Django for some other applications and find it
to be fantastic for what I am using it for (Corporate news, intranet, etc.)
internally but what about something like… an accounts receivable system, or
a billing system, etc.
I would hate to see a framework such as this pigeon-holed into a category
it doesn't need to be. It seems to be used for social media/networking,
content-heavy sites, not so much data processing, etc. I feel that it has
all the elements needed to start down this path. Anyone have any thoughts?
Thank you very much for your time.
Best,
Steven Elliott
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[bruno desthuilliers]

Post by Steven Elliott Jr
Dear friends,
I apologize for writing this type of question to the community but I would appreciate any information you could pass on considering the breadth of knowledge within this group.
I know that the word “enterprise” gives some people the creeps,
but I am curious to know if anyone has experience creating enterprise applications,

Err... What's an "enterprise application", actually ???

Post by Steven Elliott Jr
similar to something like say… Java EE applications, which are highly concurrent, distributed applications with Django? I know Java has its own issues but its kind of viewed as THE enterprise framework and I think that’s unfortunate.
Some people say that Rails is a good replacement for Java EE but what about Django?

If Rails can do it, then chances are Django will to. With possibly
less performances and scaling issues. FWIW, Rails don't seem to score
that high in the "highly concurrent, distributed" domain. If you want
"highly concurrent, distributed" stuff, you might be better basing
your dev on Erlang.

Post by Steven Elliott Jr
Has anyone ever used it in this context? You only ever see pretty standard websites on djangosites.org and it seems like its capable of so much more.

There are quite a few E-Commerce websites done with Satchmo.

Post by Steven Elliott Jr
I am planning on scrapping some of our old systems which are written mostly on ASP.NET and some Java for something more easily maintainable. I started using Django for some other applications and find it to be fantastic for what I am using it for (Corporate news, intranet, etc.) internally but what about something like… an accounts receivable system, or a billing system, etc.
I would hate to see a framework such as this pigeon-holed into a category it doesn't need to be. It seems to be used for social media/networking, content-heavy sites, not so much data processing, etc. I feel that it has all the elements needed to start down this path. Anyone have any thoughts?

"social networking" can require as much "data processing" as any CRM
or "billing system" or other similar stuff. And anything you can write
as a web app can of course be done with Django.

[Phlip]

Post by bruno desthuilliers
Err... What's an "enterprise application", actually ???

An app written for a company large enough to run an in-house
programming team. Their job consists of figuring out how to connect
diverse systems that never expected to be connected!

[Ovnicraft]

Post by Steven Elliott Jr
Dear friends,
I apologize for writing this type of question to the community but I would
appreciate any information you could pass on considering the breadth of
knowledge within this group.
I know that the word “enterprise” gives some people the creeps, but I am
curious to know if anyone has experience creating enterprise applications,
similar to something like say… Java EE applications, which are highly
concurrent, distributed applications with Django? I know Java has its own
issues but its kind of viewed as THE enterprise framework and I think that’s
unfortunate.
Some people say that Rails is a good replacement for Java EE but what about
Django? Has anyone ever used it in this context? You only ever see pretty
standard websites on djangosites.org and it seems like its capable of so
much more. I am planning on scrapping some of our old systems which are
written mostly on ASP.NET and some Java for something more easily
maintainable. I started using Django for some other applications and find it
to be fantastic for what I am using it for (Corporate news, intranet, etc.)
internally but what about something like… an accounts receivable system, or
a billing system, etc.
I would hate to see a framework such as this pigeon-holed into a category
it doesn't need to be. It seems to be used for social media/networking,
content-heavy sites, not so much data processing, etc. I feel that it has
all the elements needed to start down this path. Anyone have any thoughts?

Maybe the suggestion go out from this conversation but you can review
www.openobject.com is a framework to create Enterprise apps, so i want to
tell we build enterprise apps with GeoDjango.

Post by Steven Elliott Jr
Thank you very much for your time.
Best,
Steven Elliott
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Cristian Salamea
CEO GnuThink Software Labs
Software Libre / Open Source
([phone]

[Steven Elliott Jr]

@Eric Chapman

I know the term "enterprise" is pretty crappy but I didn't know how else to describe and I was hesitant to even throw it out there. I agree there are some seriously crappy "enterprise apps" out there, hell when i started working I inherited a ton! Anyway, thanks for the insight; I appreciate it.

Steve

Post by Steven Elliott Jr
Dear friends,
I apologize for writing this type of question to the community but I would appreciate any information you could pass on considering the breadth of knowledge within this group.
I know that the word “enterprise” gives some people the creeps, but I am curious to know if anyone has experience creating enterprise applications, similar to something like say… Java EE applications, which are highly concurrent, distributed applications with Django? I know Java has its own issues but its kind of viewed as THE enterprise framework and I think that’s unfortunate.
Some people say that Rails is a good replacement for Java EE but what about Django? Has anyone ever used it in this context? You only ever see pretty standard websites on djangosites.org and it seems like its capable of so much more. I am planning on scrapping some of our old systems which are written mostly on ASP.NET and some Java for something more easily maintainable. I started using Django for some other applications and find it to be fantastic for what I am using it for (Corporate news, intranet, etc.) internally but what about something like… an accounts receivable system, or a billing system, etc.
I would hate to see a framework such as this pigeon-holed into a category it doesn't need to be. It seems to be used for social media/networking, content-heavy sites, not so much data processing, etc. I feel that it has all the elements needed to start down this path. Anyone have any thoughts?

The term "enterprise", is pretty loaded. I've managed some really shitty "enterprise" apps, like Peoplesoft and Siebel CRM.
Django can definitely do more than serve up websites. We use django to run our call routing infrastructure.
Our main app does have a mobile web interface for making calls, but the backend telephony servers also communicate with Django via web services. Django does all the call routing logic.
--
Eric Chamberlain, Founder
RF.com - http://RF.com/
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[Kenneth Gonsalves]

Post by Steven Elliott Jr
I apologize for writing this type of question to the community but I would
appreciate any information you could pass on considering the breadth of
knowledge within this group. I know that the word “enterprise” gives some
people the creeps, but I am curious to know if anyone has experience
creating enterprise applications, similar to something like say… Java EE
applications, which are highly concurrent, distributed applications with
Django? I know Java has its own issues but its kind of viewed as THE
enterprise framework and I think that’s unfortunate.

there is a very interesting thread on this topic in the developers mailing
list where Jacob has described his discussions with a fortune 500 company.
please check it out.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Senior Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://certificate.nrcfoss.au-kbc.org.in

[Eric Chamberlain]

Post by Steven Elliott Jr
Dear friends,
I apologize for writing this type of question to the community but I would appreciate any information you could pass on considering the breadth of knowledge within this group.
I know that the word “enterprise” gives some people the creeps, but I am curious to know if anyone has experience creating enterprise applications, similar to something like say… Java EE applications, which are highly concurrent, distributed applications with Django? I know Java has its own issues but its kind of viewed as THE enterprise framework and I think that’s unfortunate.
Some people say that Rails is a good replacement for Java EE but what about Django? Has anyone ever used it in this context? You only ever see pretty standard websites on djangosites.org and it seems like its capable of so much more. I am planning on scrapping some of our old systems which are written mostly on ASP.NET and some Java for something more easily maintainable. I started using Django for some other applications and find it to be fantastic for what I am using it for (Corporate news, intranet, etc.) internally but what about something like… an accounts receivable system, or a billing system, etc.
I would hate to see a framework such as this pigeon-holed into a category it doesn't need to be. It seems to be used for social media/networking, content-heavy sites, not so much data processing, etc. I feel that it has all the elements needed to start down this path. Anyone have any thoughts?

The term "enterprise", is pretty loaded. I've managed some really shitty "enterprise" apps, like Peoplesoft and Siebel CRM.

Django can definitely do more than serve up websites. We use django to run our call routing infrastructure.

Our main app does have a mobile web interface for making calls, but the backend telephony servers also communicate with Django via web services. Django does all the call routing logic.

--
Eric Chamberlain, Founder
RF.com - http://RF.com/