OT - The Truth - Like it or not

[Tim Smith]

The Shame of Being an American

"Do you know that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing in southern
Lebanon? Israel has ordered all the villagers to clear out. Israel
then destroys their homes and murders the fleeing villagers. That way
there is no one to come back and nothing to which to return, making it
easier for Israel to grab the territory, just as Israel has been
stealing Palestine from the Palestinians.

Do you know that one-third of the Lebanese civilians murdered by
Israel's attacks on civilian residential districts are children? That
is the report from Jan Egeland, the emergency relief coordinator for
the UN. He says it is impossible for help to reach the wounded and
those buried in rubble, because Israeli air strikes have blown up all
the bridges and roads. Considering how often (almost always) Israel
misses Hezbollah targets and hits civilian ones, one might think that
Israeli fire is being guided by US satellites and US military GPS.
Don't be surprised at US complicity. Why would the puppet be any less
evil than the puppet master?

Of course, you don't know these things, because the US print and TV
media do not report them.

Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked
every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush
has told the UN "NO." Bush has told the European Union "NO." Bush has
told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister "NO." Twice. Bush is
very proud of his firmness. He is enjoying Israel's rampage and wishes
he could do the same thing in Iraq.

Does it make you a Proud American that "your" president gave Israel
the green light to drop bombs on convoys of villagers fleeing from
Israeli shelling, on residential neighborhoods in the capital of
Beirut and throughout Lebanon, on hospitals, on power plants, on food
production and storage, on ports, on civilian airports, on bridges, on
roads, on every piece of infrastructure on which civilized life
depends? Are you a Proud American? Or are you an Israeli puppet?

On July 20, "your" House of Representatives voted 410-8 in favor of
Israel's massive war crimes in Lebanon. Not content with making every
American complicit in war crimes, "your" House of Representatives,
according to the Associated Press, also "condemns enemies of the
Jewish state."

Who are the "enemies of the Jewish state"?

They are the Palestinians whose land has been stolen by the Jewish
state, whose homes and olive groves have been destroyed by the Jewish
state, whose children have been shot down in the streets by the Jewish
state, whose women have been abused by the Jewish state. They are
Palestinians who have been walled off into ghettos, who cannot reach
their farm lands or medical care or schools, who cannot drive on roads
through Palestine that have been constructed for Israelis only. They
are Palestinians whose ancient towns have been invaded by militant
Zionist "settlers" under the protection of the Israeli army who beat
and persecute the Palestinians and drive them out of their towns. They
are Palestinians who cannot allow their children outside their homes
because they will be murdered by Israeli "settlers."

The Palestinians who confront Israeli evil are called "terrorists."
When Bush forced free elections on Palestine, the people voted for
Hamas. Hamas is the organization that has stood up to Israel. This
means, of course, that Hamas is evil, anti-Semitic, un-American and
terrorist. The US and Israel responded by cutting off all funds to the
new government. Democracy is permitted only if it produces the results
Bush and Israel want.

Israelis never practice terror. Only those who are in Israel's way are
terrorists.

Another enemy of the Jewish state is Hezbollah. Hezbollah is a militia
of Shi'ite Muslims created in 1982 when Israel first invaded Lebanon.
During this invasion the great moral Jewish state arranged for the
murder of refugees in refugee camps. The result of Israel's atrocities
was Hezbollah, which fought the Israeli Army, defeated it, and drove
it out of Lebanon. Today Hezbollah not only defends southern Lebanon
but also provides social services such as orphanages and medical care.
To cut to the chase, the enemies of the Jewish state are any Muslim
country not ruled by an American puppet friendly to Israel. Egypt,
Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and the oil emirates have sided with Israel
against their own kind, because they are dependent either on American
money or on American protection from their own people. Sooner or later
these totally corrupt governments that do not represent the people
they rule will be overthrown. It is only a matter of time.

Indeed Bush and Israel may be hastening the process in their frantic
effort to overthrow the governments of Syria and Iran. Both
governments have more popular support than Bush has, but the White
House Moron doesn't know this. The Moron thinks Syria and Iran will be
"cakewalks" like Iraq, where ten proud divisions of the US military
are tied down by a few lightly armed insurgents.

If you are still a Proud American, consider that your pride is doing
nothing good for Israel or for America.

On July 20 when "your" House of Representatives, following "your" US
Senate, passed the resolution in support of Israel's war crimes, the
most powerful lobby in Washington, the American Israeli Public Affairs
Committee (AIPAC), quickly got out a press release proclaiming "The
American people overwhelming support Israel's war on terrorism and
understand that we must stand by our closest ally in this time of
crisis."

The truth is that Israel created the crisis by invading a country with
a pro-American government. The truth is that the American people do
not support Israel's war crimes, as the CNN quick poll results make
clear and as was made clear by callers into C-Span.

Despite the Israeli spin on news provided by US "reporting," a
majority of Americans do not approve of Israeli atrocities against
Lebanese civilians. Hezbollah is located in southern Lebanon. If
Israel is targeting Hezbollah, why are Israeli bombs falling on
northern Lebanon? Why are they falling on Beirut? Why are they falling
on civilian airports? On schools and hospitals?

Now we arrive at the main point. When the US Senate and House of
Representatives pass resolutions in support of Israeli war crimes and
condemn those who resist Israeli aggression, the Senate and House
confirm Osama bin Laden's propaganda that America stands with Israel
against the Arab and Muslim world.

Indeed, Israel, which has one of the world's largest per capita
incomes, is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. Many believe that
much of this "aid" comes back to AIPAC, which uses it to elect "our"
representatives in Congress.

This perception is no favor to Israel, whose population is declining,
as the smart ones have seen the writing on the wall and have been
leaving. Israel is surrounded by hundreds of millions of Muslims who
are being turned into enemies of Israel by Israel's actions and
inhumane policies.

The hope in the Muslim world has always been that the United States
would intervene in behalf of compromise and make Israel realize that
Israel cannot steal Palestine and turn every Palestinian into a
refugee.

This has been the hope of the Arab world. This is the reason our
puppets have not been overthrown. This hope is the reason America
still had some prestige in the Arab world.

The House of Representatives resolution, bought and paid for by AIPAC
money, is the final nail in the coffin of American prestige in the
Middle East. It shows that America is, indeed, Israel's puppet, just
as Osama bin Laden says, and as a majority of Muslims believe.

With hope and diplomacy dead, henceforth America and Israel have only
tooth and claw. The vaunted Israeli army could not defeat a rag tag
militia in southern Lebanon. The vaunted US military cannot defeat a
rag tag, lightly armed insurgency drawn from a minority of the
population in Iraq, insurgents, moreover, who are mainly engaged in
civil war against the Shi'ite majority.

What will the US and its puppet master do? Both are too full of hubris
and paranoia to admit their terrible mistakes. Israel and the US will
either destroy from the air the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon,
Palestine, Syria, and Iran so that civilized life becomes impossible
for Muslims, or the US and Israel will use nuclear weapons to
intimidate Muslims into acquiescence to Israel's desires.

Muslim genocide in one form or another is the professed goal of the
neoconservatives who have total control over the Bush administration.
Neocon godfather Norman Podhoretz has called for World War IV (in
neocon thinking WW III was the Cold War) to overthrow Islam in the
Middle East, deracinate the Islamic religion and turn it into a
formalized, secular ritual.

Rumsfeld's neocon Pentagon has drafted new US war doctrine that
permits pre-emptive nuclear attack on non-nuclear states.

Neocon David Horowitz says that by slaughtering Palestinian and
Lebanese civilians, "Israel is doing the work of the rest of the
civilized world," thus equating war criminals with civilized men.

Neocon Larry Kudlow says that "Israel is doing the Lord's work" by
murdering Lebanese, a claim that should give pause to Israel's
Christian evangelical supporters. Where does the Lord Jesus say, "go
forth and murder your neighbors so that you may steal their lands"?

The complicity of the American public in these heinous crimes will
damn America for all time in history."

[Cliff]

Post by Tim Smith
Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked
every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush
has told the UN "NO." Bush has told the European Union "NO." Bush has
told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister "NO." Twice.

Told the Saudis to go pi** up a rope too.

Post by Tim Smith
Bush is
very proud of his firmness. He is enjoying Israel's rampage and wishes
he could do the same thing in Iraq.

Plans seem to be in the works to invade Baghdad and try to
place it under Imperial neocon control.

OTOH Global warming in a few years might flood Washington DC but
probably not the palace to be near Wakko, TX.

[Gus]

Post by Tim Smith
Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked
every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush
has told the UN "NO." Bush has told the European Union "NO." Bush has
told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister "NO." Twice.

<snipped mumbo jumbo>

Lebanese civillians are in the crossfire which is a shame but Israeli
civillians are the "targets" of terrorists. I don't hear you having any
sympathy for them.
GW

[Geno1234]

But the tide is changing. And now it has become zionazi jews turn to die.
Mark my words.
Zionazi jews can't forever be leeches on the American tax payers hide to
fund their genocide.

Post by Gus

Post by Tim Smith
Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked
every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush
has told the UN "NO." Bush has told the European Union "NO." Bush has
told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister "NO." Twice.

<snipped mumbo jumbo>
Lebanese civillians are in the crossfire which is a shame but Israeli
civillians are the "targets" of terrorists. I don't hear you having any
sympathy for them.
GW

[Cliff]

Post by Gus

Post by Tim Smith
Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked
every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush
has told the UN "NO." Bush has told the European Union "NO." Bush has
told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister "NO." Twice.

<snipped mumbo jumbo>
Lebanese civillians are in the crossfire which is a shame but Israeli
civillians are the "targets" of terrorists. I don't hear you having any
sympathy for them.

Israel's been bombing many for decades & taking hostages
as well as much else that the UN has very strongly frowned on.

Now somebody did some neocon-style-approved rendition and
they started bombing Lebanon ... FIRST.

[Gus]

Post by Cliff

Post by Gus

Post by Tim Smith
Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked
every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush
has told the UN "NO." Bush has told the European Union "NO." Bush has
told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister "NO." Twice.

<snipped mumbo jumbo>
Lebanese civillians are in the crossfire which is a shame but Israeli
civillians are the "targets" of terrorists. I don't hear you having any
sympathy for them.

Israel's been bombing many for decades & taking hostages
as well as much else that the UN has very strongly frowned on.
Now somebody did some neocon-style-approved rendition and
they started bombing Lebanon ... FIRST.
--
Cliff

For 50 years Israel's neighbors have been attacking them. I guess the
difference I see is that Israel targets terrorists while terrorists
target innocent civillians. Israel might shoot a missile at some
terrorists in a car but the terrorists like to climb aboard city busses
and blow everyone up. I see a big difference, can't you?
GW

[Stuart Wheaton]

Post by Gus
For 50 years Israel's neighbors have been attacking them. I guess the
difference I see is that Israel targets terrorists while terrorists
target innocent civillians. Israel might shoot a missile at some
terrorists in a car but the terrorists like to climb aboard city busses
and blow everyone up. I see a big difference, can't you?
GW

If over 1/3 of the victims of Israel's bombs were not children, this
case would be FAR stronger.
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics. The question
is whether a state actor, using precision munitions, is right to cause
such massive collateral damage, and whether the relatives of those 100+
children will resort to terrorism to avenge their losses.

[Gunner]

Post by Stuart Wheaton

Post by Gus
For 50 years Israel's neighbors have been attacking them. I guess the
difference I see is that Israel targets terrorists while terrorists
target innocent civillians. Israel might shoot a missile at some
terrorists in a car but the terrorists like to climb aboard city busses
and blow everyone up. I see a big difference, can't you?
GW

If over 1/3 of the victims of Israel's bombs were not children, this
case would be FAR stronger.
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics. The question
is whether a state actor, using precision munitions, is right to cause
such massive collateral damage, and whether the relatives of those 100+
children will resort to terrorism to avenge their losses.

If their parents didnt allow or encourage military targets to be placed
in among the range of those children..when those targets were
destroyed..it wouldnt harm the kids.

So at the very least..the parents are guilty of child endangerment.

I see here, a host of those who logically would allow their children to
play on the freeway.

Gunner

"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist

[Cliff]

Post by Gunner
If their parents didnt allow or encourage military targets to be placed
in among the range of those children..when those targets were
destroyed..it wouldnt harm the kids.

Dang stupid people in Israel. Almost everyone there is well armed
& thus a target.

[F. George McDuffee]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 18:27:24 -0400, Stuart Wheaton

Post by Gus
I see a big difference, can't you?

In one case it is done low-tech, "up close and personal." In the
other case it is done high-tech, like a video game, with no
physical blood on the [perps] hands or clothing. All the
difference in the world...

The taxpayers and citizens of the many countries around the world
involved in this madness are paying the price with their (and
their children's) blood and treasure. Who is making the money?

The US taxpayers are funding *BOTH* sides --- WTF???



If you look at history you'll find that no state
has been so plagued by its rulers
as when power has fallen into the hands
of some dabbler in philosophy or literary addict.

Desiderius Erasmus (c. 1466-1536), Dutch humanist.
Praise of Folly, ch. 24 (1509).

[Gus]

Post by Stuart Wheaton
If over 1/3 of the victims of Israel's bombs were not children, this
case would be FAR stronger.
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics. The question
is whether a state actor, using precision munitions, is right to cause
such massive collateral damage, and whether the relatives of those 100+
children will resort to terrorism to avenge their losses.

That is a very good thought provoking response.

What bothers me is that the terrorists seem to be inviting civillian
casualties by using human shields, conducting their rocket launches
from civillian neighborhoods, and when children are killed in the
crossfire, parading their dead bodies in front of media cameras for
hours. One could almost think they're inviting these tragedies.

GW

[Gunner]

Post by Gus

Post by Stuart Wheaton
If over 1/3 of the victims of Israel's bombs were not children, this
case would be FAR stronger.
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics. The question
is whether a state actor, using precision munitions, is right to cause
such massive collateral damage, and whether the relatives of those 100+
children will resort to terrorism to avenge their losses.

That is a very good thought provoking response.
What bothers me is that the terrorists seem to be inviting civillian
casualties by using human shields, conducting their rocket launches
from civillian neighborhoods, and when children are killed in the
crossfire, parading their dead bodies in front of media cameras for
hours. One could almost think they're inviting these tragedies.
GW

They are. They are indeed. Its part and parcel of the terrorist modus
operandi.

Gunner

"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist

[Cliff]

Post by Gunner

Post by Gus
What bothers me is that the terrorists seem to be inviting civillian
casualties by using human shields, conducting their rocket launches
from civillian neighborhoods, and when children are killed in the
crossfire, parading their dead bodies in front of media cameras for
hours. One could almost think they're inviting these tragedies.
GW

They are. They are indeed. Its part and parcel of the terrorist modus
operandi.

Being dead?
Then you have little to worry about in your bunker.

[Mysterion]

Post by Gus

Post by Stuart Wheaton
If over 1/3 of the victims of Israel's bombs were not children, this
case would be FAR stronger.
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics. The question
is whether a state actor, using precision munitions, is right to cause
such massive collateral damage, and whether the relatives of those 100+
children will resort to terrorism to avenge their losses.

That is a very good thought provoking response.
What bothers me is that the terrorists seem to be inviting civillian
casualties by using human shields, conducting their rocket launches
from civillian neighborhoods, and when children are killed in the
crossfire, parading their dead bodies in front of media cameras for
hours. One could almost think they're inviting these tragedies.

1)Don't believe everything - or anything - you see on Faux News.

2)In a desert, the only cover available is in the built up areas.

3)Israel routinely attacks civilians fleeing the combat zone so they tend to
hunker down.

4)Invited or not, tragedies serve a political purpose.

[RM v2.0]

Post by Mysterion

Post by Gus
That is a very good thought provoking response.
What bothers me is that the terrorists seem to be inviting civillian
casualties by using human shields, conducting their rocket launches
from civillian neighborhoods, and when children are killed in the
crossfire, parading their dead bodies in front of media cameras for
hours. One could almost think they're inviting these tragedies.

1)Don't believe everything - or anything - you see on Faux News.
2)In a desert, the only cover available is in the built up areas.
3)Israel routinely attacks civilians fleeing the combat zone so they tend
to hunker down.
4)Invited or not, tragedies serve a political purpose.

How about CNN, NY Times, etc? They are deliberately using civilians as
cover and then parading the dead around. It is an extremely old tactic used
in the Middle East. Even in GW1 they were using hospitals and schools for
manufacturing and hiding out.

[Mysterion]

Post by RM v2.0

Post by Mysterion

Post by Gus
That is a very good thought provoking response.
What bothers me is that the terrorists seem to be inviting civillian
casualties by using human shields, conducting their rocket launches
from civillian neighborhoods, and when children are killed in the
crossfire, parading their dead bodies in front of media cameras for
hours. One could almost think they're inviting these tragedies.

1)Don't believe everything - or anything - you see on Faux News.
2)In a desert, the only cover available is in the built up areas.
3)Israel routinely attacks civilians fleeing the combat zone so they tend
to hunker down.
4)Invited or not, tragedies serve a political purpose.

How about CNN, NY Times, etc? They are deliberately using civilians as
cover and then parading the dead around. It is an extremely old tactic
used in the Middle East. Even in GW1 they were using hospitals and schools
for manufacturing and hiding out.

So they should set up in the middle of a wide open area?
That wouldn't be obvious at all.

[Cliff]

Post by RM v2.0
using hospitals

Like the ones Israel attacked?

[Stuart Wheaton]

Post by Gus

Post by Stuart Wheaton
If over 1/3 of the victims of Israel's bombs were not children, this
case would be FAR stronger.
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics. The question
is whether a state actor, using precision munitions, is right to cause
such massive collateral damage, and whether the relatives of those 100+
children will resort to terrorism to avenge their losses.

That is a very good thought provoking response.
What bothers me is that the terrorists seem to be inviting civillian
casualties by using human shields, conducting their rocket launches
from civillian neighborhoods, and when children are killed in the
crossfire, parading their dead bodies in front of media cameras for
hours. One could almost think they're inviting these tragedies.

So then the question becomes, does Israel want to play into the hands of
the terrorists? Would they be better off by not relying on bombing and
missile launches, and even artillery targeted at launching sites, when
it is known that the fuses are lit and the culprits are long gone before
the incoming fire blasts civilian houses to rubble.

Invest the manpower in infantry, use trained, careful snipers that do
not shoot kids and women and old folks. Put predators in the air and
hit the launchers before the people setting them up are done, that at
least makes the collateral damage worthwhile. But blasting an area
because missiles came from there yesterday is like beating your dog for
barking at the neighbor last night, it just pisses off the dog and he
won't change his behavior.

To 'win' this conflict, Israel must be prepared to take moderate losses
of infantry personnel. They must go into the Hezbolla held territory,
and draw the actual enemy, the armed fighter, into face to face combat.
Dropping bombs is the lazy and indiscriminate way to perpetuate this
conflict for many more years.

Furthermore, when this conflict is over, Lebanon will have to be a
viable state. Israel has already done so much damage to the
infrastructure of that country, that it will be very difficult and very
expensive to meet the needs of the population. Roads, bridges, power,
water, sanitation, and communications facilities have been blown to bits
already in this campaign of bombing. Massive and swift aid will have to
come in from many countries to repair this damage, otherwise the people
who are denied basic services will become easy prey for extremist
politicos and the lebanese government will be pulled toward hardliners
who promise to retaliate rather than repair. Anything that minimizes
the damage done to non-combatants is a step in the right direction.

[Cliff]

Post by Stuart Wheaton
Furthermore, when this conflict is over, Lebanon will have to be a
viable state.

That's not at all in the neocon gameplan.

[m***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by Stuart Wheaton

Post by Gus

Post by Stuart Wheaton
If over 1/3 of the victims of Israel's bombs were not children, this
case would be FAR stronger.
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics. The question
is whether a state actor, using precision munitions, is right to cause
such massive collateral damage, and whether the relatives of those 100+
children will resort to terrorism to avenge their losses.

That is a very good thought provoking response.
What bothers me is that the terrorists seem to be inviting civillian
casualties by using human shields, conducting their rocket launches
from civillian neighborhoods, and when children are killed in the
crossfire, parading their dead bodies in front of media cameras for
hours. One could almost think they're inviting these tragedies.

So then the question becomes, does Israel want to play into the hands of
the terrorists? Would they be better off by not relying on bombing and
missile launches, and even artillery targeted at launching sites, when
it is known that the fuses are lit and the culprits are long gone before
the incoming fire blasts civilian houses to rubble.

First, one must understand the enemy.
In this case, the enemy is a populace at large that expressly desires
the extermination of Isreal and, secondly, the submission or
extermination of all other non-muslims.
So long as the general population supports, aids and abets the tactics
of the terrorists (including voting them into political positions,
allowing them to place military equipment among civilian populations,
and parading dead bodies that frequently are unrelated to whatever news
event is being filmed) they are de facto participants in the terror and
are themselves viable targets.
If they don't want to be targets, they need to leave the combat zone,
stop supporting the terrorists, and vote out the politicians that are a
part of the terrorist organization.

As can be seen by the muslim on muslim violence in Iraq, the terrorists
don't care about their own any more than they care about the women,
children and non-combatants of Isreal.
The Isrealis, on the other hand, at least attempt to target
terrorists rather than indiscriminantly sending bombs into bona-fide
civilian areas; they warn the populace in advance of attacks, and
target the places that Hezbollah uses to launch it's rockets.
Isreal uses professional military, in professional dress, and
military equipment.
Hezbollah uses professional terrorists (or "guerillas" if you
prefer) who dress and live and travel in civilian clothes, civilian
areas and have no identifiable "military" bases or targets.
Hezbollah fires rockets into civilian areas rather than the easily
identifiable military areas or targets.
The terrorists routinely bring truckloads of frozen dead,
especially children, to areas and bring out the bodies for western
cameras. It's world class propoganda intended to engender sympathy for
the locals and anger at Isreal.
And it works.

Isreal's hands are tied in that if they do not respond to the
terrorists, the terrorists have a free hand to keep killing Isrealis.
If Isreal responds to the terrorists, as they have a right and
responsibility to do, then the world is shown con artist propoganda of
dead children, civilians, pregnant women, etc and gets blamed for
causing so much human suffering.

The existence of "palestinian arabs" is a fraud. There is no such
thing. The arabic folk who lived in the area when Isreal was formed had
no self-identity as "palestinians". That was dreamed up by the radicals
whose sole purpose was to marginalize and eventually destroy Isreal,
but over the years the term has become so normative that most people in
the west think that "Palestine" was actually a people and culture for
ages.
"Palestine" is derived from "Philistine"... those folk who
disappeared over 2000 years ago and were not ever Arabic, but
descendants of Greek and Macedonian seamen. The modern Arabs in
palestine are descendants of the Arabs who raged out of the desert
behind Mohammed 1300 years ago, killing and destroying everyone who did
not submit to Islam.
Islam's goal has not changed. The Islamic goal is world domination
with all others either killed or submitted.
Theirs is the culture that continues human slavery, female
mutilation, and religious persecution beyond what anyone else can
imagine. On every front, the Islamic goal is domination and the
imposition of Sharia law.
Theirs is the culture that arrests or kills people for proselytizing
any religion but Islam. Christians are arrested and jailed, at best,
for handing out christian literature. Moslems who convert are condemned
to death.

The fundamental question boils down to the basic idea of human
existence, which can be summarized by the U.S. Declaration of
Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men
are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit
of Happiness." Coupled with the preamble to the US Constitution: "..in
order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic
tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general
welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our
posterity," we can see that Isreal has no option but to continue it's
efforts to secure it's existence and defend it's populace from both
internal and external terrorists. As a free people invoking those
statements regarding ourselves and our world view, we do well to choose
aid to Isreal against the terrorists rather than submission to a world
view that expressly wishes us dead or enslaved.
I know full well that the US Declaration and Constitution do not
apply to or in Isreal; however, if we Americans fully believe these
principles, then to stand up for those principles as they apply to
others can only strengthen them as we apply them to ourselves.

Isreal is under seige from many sides. Yet, even so, they allow
people to worship as they will. They agreed long ago to allow the
Temple Mount to continue to be administered by the Islamic presence
there, in spite of the fact that it is the place where history places
Isreal's Temple, and faith says is the place where God would reside on
earth.
Isreal allows all citizens to vote. Isreal allows diversity of
language, culture, faith and politics. Isreal encourages the free
exchange of ideas and the openness of business.
Contrast that behavior, even under seige, with the world view of
Iran, the Taliban, and even our friend Saudi Arabia.

Before we condemn Isreal for it's actions toward it's enemies, let's
look carefully at what the enemy is, what it stands for, and how it
behaves.

Regards,
mark evins

Post by Stuart Wheaton
Invest the manpower in infantry, use trained, careful snipers that do
not shoot kids and women and old folks. Put predators in the air and
hit the launchers before the people setting them up are done, that at
least makes the collateral damage worthwhile. But blasting an area
because missiles came from there yesterday is like beating your dog for
barking at the neighbor last night, it just pisses off the dog and he
won't change his behavior.
To 'win' this conflict, Israel must be prepared to take moderate losses
of infantry personnel. They must go into the Hezbolla held territory,
and draw the actual enemy, the armed fighter, into face to face combat.
Dropping bombs is the lazy and indiscriminate way to perpetuate this
conflict for many more years.
Furthermore, when this conflict is over, Lebanon will have to be a
viable state. Israel has already done so much damage to the
infrastructure of that country, that it will be very difficult and very
expensive to meet the needs of the population. Roads, bridges, power,
water, sanitation, and communications facilities have been blown to bits
already in this campaign of bombing. Massive and swift aid will have to
come in from many countries to repair this damage, otherwise the people
who are denied basic services will become easy prey for extremist
politicos and the lebanese government will be pulled toward hardliners
who promise to retaliate rather than repair. Anything that minimizes
the damage done to non-combatants is a step in the right direction.

[Guido]

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
In this case, the enemy is a populace at large that expressly desires
the extermination of Isreal and,

What has a matlab function got to do with this?

[m***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by Guido

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
In this case, the enemy is a populace at large that expressly desires
the extermination of Isreal and,

What has a matlab function got to do with this?

I know you're trying to communicate 'cause there are words on the
screen.....

[Cliff]

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Guido

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
In this case, the enemy is a populace at large that expressly desires
the extermination of Isreal and,

What has a matlab function got to do with this?

I know you're trying to communicate 'cause there are words on the
screen.....

They must just be too big.

[m***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Guido

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
In this case, the enemy is a populace at large that expressly desires
the extermination of Isreal and,

What has a matlab function got to do with this?

I know you're trying to communicate 'cause there are words on the
screen.....

They must just be too big.

They're unrelated to the subject of the thread.

Post by Cliff
--
Cliff

[Cliff]

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Guido

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
In this case, the enemy is a populace at large that expressly desires
the extermination of Isreal and,

What has a matlab function got to do with this?

I know you're trying to communicate 'cause there are words on the
screen.....

They must just be too big.

They're unrelated to the subject of the thread.

http://www.mathworks.com/

HTH

[Guido]

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Guido

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
In this case, the enemy is a populace at large that expressly desires
the extermination of Isreal and,

What has a matlab function got to do with this?

I know you're trying to communicate 'cause there are words on the
screen.....

They must just be too big.

They're unrelated to the subject of the thread.

http://www.mathworks.com/

I thought I'd deal with the first error in his screed before addressing
the 4856th. I notice Gunner wet himself over it though.

[m***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Guido

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
In this case, the enemy is a populace at large that expressly desires
the extermination of Isreal and,

What has a matlab function got to do with this?

I know you're trying to communicate 'cause there are words on the
screen.....

They must just be too big.

They're unrelated to the subject of the thread.

http://www.mathworks.com/

What has that to do with the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah?

Post by Cliff
HTH
--
Cliff

[Gus]

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Stuart Wheaton

Post by Gus

Post by Stuart Wheaton
If over 1/3 of the victims of Israel's bombs were not children, this
case would be FAR stronger.
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics. The question
is whether a state actor, using precision munitions, is right to cause
such massive collateral damage, and whether the relatives of those 100+
children will resort to terrorism to avenge their losses.

That is a very good thought provoking response.
What bothers me is that the terrorists seem to be inviting civillian
casualties by using human shields, conducting their rocket launches
from civillian neighborhoods, and when children are killed in the
crossfire, parading their dead bodies in front of media cameras for
hours. One could almost think they're inviting these tragedies.

So then the question becomes, does Israel want to play into the hands of
the terrorists? Would they be better off by not relying on bombing and
missile launches, and even artillery targeted at launching sites, when
it is known that the fuses are lit and the culprits are long gone before
the incoming fire blasts civilian houses to rubble.

First, one must understand the enemy.
In this case, the enemy is a populace at large that expressly desires
the extermination of Isreal and, secondly, the submission or
extermination of all other non-muslims.
So long as the general population supports, aids and abets the tactics
of the terrorists (including voting them into political positions,
allowing them to place military equipment among civilian populations,
and parading dead bodies that frequently are unrelated to whatever news
event is being filmed) they are de facto participants in the terror and
are themselves viable targets.
If they don't want to be targets, they need to leave the combat zone,
stop supporting the terrorists, and vote out the politicians that are a
part of the terrorist organization.
As can be seen by the muslim on muslim violence in Iraq, the terrorists
don't care about their own any more than they care about the women,
children and non-combatants of Isreal.
The Isrealis, on the other hand, at least attempt to target
terrorists rather than indiscriminantly sending bombs into bona-fide
civilian areas; they warn the populace in advance of attacks, and
target the places that Hezbollah uses to launch it's rockets.
Isreal uses professional military, in professional dress, and
military equipment.
Hezbollah uses professional terrorists (or "guerillas" if you
prefer) who dress and live and travel in civilian clothes, civilian
areas and have no identifiable "military" bases or targets.
Hezbollah fires rockets into civilian areas rather than the easily
identifiable military areas or targets.
The terrorists routinely bring truckloads of frozen dead,
especially children, to areas and bring out the bodies for western
cameras. It's world class propoganda intended to engender sympathy for
the locals and anger at Isreal.
And it works.
Isreal's hands are tied in that if they do not respond to the
terrorists, the terrorists have a free hand to keep killing Isrealis.
If Isreal responds to the terrorists, as they have a right and
responsibility to do, then the world is shown con artist propoganda of
dead children, civilians, pregnant women, etc and gets blamed for
causing so much human suffering.
The existence of "palestinian arabs" is a fraud. There is no such
thing. The arabic folk who lived in the area when Isreal was formed had
no self-identity as "palestinians". That was dreamed up by the radicals
whose sole purpose was to marginalize and eventually destroy Isreal,
but over the years the term has become so normative that most people in
the west think that "Palestine" was actually a people and culture for
ages.
"Palestine" is derived from "Philistine"... those folk who
disappeared over 2000 years ago and were not ever Arabic, but
descendants of Greek and Macedonian seamen. The modern Arabs in
palestine are descendants of the Arabs who raged out of the desert
behind Mohammed 1300 years ago, killing and destroying everyone who did
not submit to Islam.
Islam's goal has not changed. The Islamic goal is world domination
with all others either killed or submitted.
Theirs is the culture that continues human slavery, female
mutilation, and religious persecution beyond what anyone else can
imagine. On every front, the Islamic goal is domination and the
imposition of Sharia law.
Theirs is the culture that arrests or kills people for proselytizing
any religion but Islam. Christians are arrested and jailed, at best,
for handing out christian literature. Moslems who convert are condemned
to death.
The fundamental question boils down to the basic idea of human
existence, which can be summarized by the U.S. Declaration of
Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men
are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit
of Happiness." Coupled with the preamble to the US Constitution: "..in
order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic
tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general
welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our
posterity," we can see that Isreal has no option but to continue it's
efforts to secure it's existence and defend it's populace from both
internal and external terrorists. As a free people invoking those
statements regarding ourselves and our world view, we do well to choose
aid to Isreal against the terrorists rather than submission to a world
view that expressly wishes us dead or enslaved.
I know full well that the US Declaration and Constitution do not
apply to or in Isreal; however, if we Americans fully believe these
principles, then to stand up for those principles as they apply to
others can only strengthen them as we apply them to ourselves.
Isreal is under seige from many sides. Yet, even so, they allow
people to worship as they will. They agreed long ago to allow the
Temple Mount to continue to be administered by the Islamic presence
there, in spite of the fact that it is the place where history places
Isreal's Temple, and faith says is the place where God would reside on
earth.
Isreal allows all citizens to vote. Isreal allows diversity of
language, culture, faith and politics. Isreal encourages the free
exchange of ideas and the openness of business.
Contrast that behavior, even under seige, with the world view of
Iran, the Taliban, and even our friend Saudi Arabia.
Before we condemn Isreal for it's actions toward it's enemies, let's
look carefully at what the enemy is, what it stands for, and how it
behaves.
Regards,
mark evins

Thank you for a very good description of what's actually going on in
the middle east.
GW

[Cliff]

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
First, one must understand the enemy.

Neocons are pretty simple once you get past the lies.
Found those "WMDs" yet?

[m***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
First, one must understand the enemy.

Neocons are pretty simple once you get past the lies.
Found those "WMDs" yet?

Are there supposed to be WMDs in Lebanon? Hadn't heard that.....

Post by Cliff
--
Cliff

[Gunner]

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Stuart Wheaton

Post by Gus

Post by Stuart Wheaton
If over 1/3 of the victims of Israel's bombs were not children, this
case would be FAR stronger.
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics. The question
is whether a state actor, using precision munitions, is right to cause
such massive collateral damage, and whether the relatives of those 100+
children will resort to terrorism to avenge their losses.

That is a very good thought provoking response.
What bothers me is that the terrorists seem to be inviting civillian
casualties by using human shields, conducting their rocket launches
from civillian neighborhoods, and when children are killed in the
crossfire, parading their dead bodies in front of media cameras for
hours. One could almost think they're inviting these tragedies.

So then the question becomes, does Israel want to play into the hands of
the terrorists? Would they be better off by not relying on bombing and
missile launches, and even artillery targeted at launching sites, when
it is known that the fuses are lit and the culprits are long gone before
the incoming fire blasts civilian houses to rubble.

First, one must understand the enemy.
In this case, the enemy is a populace at large that expressly desires
the extermination of Isreal and, secondly, the submission or
extermination of all other non-muslims.
So long as the general population supports, aids and abets the tactics
of the terrorists (including voting them into political positions,
allowing them to place military equipment among civilian populations,
and parading dead bodies that frequently are unrelated to whatever news
event is being filmed) they are de facto participants in the terror and
are themselves viable targets.
If they don't want to be targets, they need to leave the combat zone,
stop supporting the terrorists, and vote out the politicians that are a
part of the terrorist organization.
As can be seen by the muslim on muslim violence in Iraq, the terrorists
don't care about their own any more than they care about the women,
children and non-combatants of Isreal.
The Isrealis, on the other hand, at least attempt to target
terrorists rather than indiscriminantly sending bombs into bona-fide
civilian areas; they warn the populace in advance of attacks, and
target the places that Hezbollah uses to launch it's rockets.
Isreal uses professional military, in professional dress, and
military equipment.
Hezbollah uses professional terrorists (or "guerillas" if you
prefer) who dress and live and travel in civilian clothes, civilian
areas and have no identifiable "military" bases or targets.
Hezbollah fires rockets into civilian areas rather than the easily
identifiable military areas or targets.
The terrorists routinely bring truckloads of frozen dead,
especially children, to areas and bring out the bodies for western
cameras. It's world class propoganda intended to engender sympathy for
the locals and anger at Isreal.
And it works.
Isreal's hands are tied in that if they do not respond to the
terrorists, the terrorists have a free hand to keep killing Isrealis.
If Isreal responds to the terrorists, as they have a right and
responsibility to do, then the world is shown con artist propoganda of
dead children, civilians, pregnant women, etc and gets blamed for
causing so much human suffering.
The existence of "palestinian arabs" is a fraud. There is no such
thing. The arabic folk who lived in the area when Isreal was formed had
no self-identity as "palestinians". That was dreamed up by the radicals
whose sole purpose was to marginalize and eventually destroy Isreal,
but over the years the term has become so normative that most people in
the west think that "Palestine" was actually a people and culture for
ages.
"Palestine" is derived from "Philistine"... those folk who
disappeared over 2000 years ago and were not ever Arabic, but
descendants of Greek and Macedonian seamen. The modern Arabs in
palestine are descendants of the Arabs who raged out of the desert
behind Mohammed 1300 years ago, killing and destroying everyone who did
not submit to Islam.
Islam's goal has not changed. The Islamic goal is world domination
with all others either killed or submitted.
Theirs is the culture that continues human slavery, female
mutilation, and religious persecution beyond what anyone else can
imagine. On every front, the Islamic goal is domination and the
imposition of Sharia law.
Theirs is the culture that arrests or kills people for proselytizing
any religion but Islam. Christians are arrested and jailed, at best,
for handing out christian literature. Moslems who convert are condemned
to death.
The fundamental question boils down to the basic idea of human
existence, which can be summarized by the U.S. Declaration of
Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men
are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit
of Happiness." Coupled with the preamble to the US Constitution: "..in
order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic
tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general
welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our
posterity," we can see that Isreal has no option but to continue it's
efforts to secure it's existence and defend it's populace from both
internal and external terrorists. As a free people invoking those
statements regarding ourselves and our world view, we do well to choose
aid to Isreal against the terrorists rather than submission to a world
view that expressly wishes us dead or enslaved.
I know full well that the US Declaration and Constitution do not
apply to or in Isreal; however, if we Americans fully believe these
principles, then to stand up for those principles as they apply to
others can only strengthen them as we apply them to ourselves.
Isreal is under seige from many sides. Yet, even so, they allow
people to worship as they will. They agreed long ago to allow the
Temple Mount to continue to be administered by the Islamic presence
there, in spite of the fact that it is the place where history places
Isreal's Temple, and faith says is the place where God would reside on
earth.
Isreal allows all citizens to vote. Isreal allows diversity of
language, culture, faith and politics. Isreal encourages the free
exchange of ideas and the openness of business.
Contrast that behavior, even under seige, with the world view of
Iran, the Taliban, and even our friend Saudi Arabia.
Before we condemn Isreal for it's actions toward it's enemies, let's
look carefully at what the enemy is, what it stands for, and how it
behaves.
Regards,
mark evins

Bravo Sir..Bravo!!!!


Gunner

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Stuart Wheaton
Invest the manpower in infantry, use trained, careful snipers that do
not shoot kids and women and old folks. Put predators in the air and
hit the launchers before the people setting them up are done, that at
least makes the collateral damage worthwhile. But blasting an area
because missiles came from there yesterday is like beating your dog for
barking at the neighbor last night, it just pisses off the dog and he
won't change his behavior.
To 'win' this conflict, Israel must be prepared to take moderate losses
of infantry personnel. They must go into the Hezbolla held territory,
and draw the actual enemy, the armed fighter, into face to face combat.
Dropping bombs is the lazy and indiscriminate way to perpetuate this
conflict for many more years.
Furthermore, when this conflict is over, Lebanon will have to be a
viable state. Israel has already done so much damage to the
infrastructure of that country, that it will be very difficult and very
expensive to meet the needs of the population. Roads, bridges, power,
water, sanitation, and communications facilities have been blown to bits
already in this campaign of bombing. Massive and swift aid will have to
come in from many countries to repair this damage, otherwise the people
who are denied basic services will become easy prey for extremist
politicos and the lebanese government will be pulled toward hardliners
who promise to retaliate rather than repair. Anything that minimizes
the damage done to non-combatants is a step in the right direction.

"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're
around."

"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right
before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001

[Cliff]

Post by Gunner
Bravo Sir..Bravo!!!!

Drooling on keyboards is not a good sign.

[S***@flashlight.net]

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Stuart Wheaton

Post by Gus

Post by Stuart Wheaton
If over 1/3 of the victims of Israel's bombs were not children, this
case would be FAR stronger.
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics. The question
is whether a state actor, using precision munitions, is right to cause
such massive collateral damage, and whether the relatives of those 100+
children will resort to terrorism to avenge their losses.

That is a very good thought provoking response.
What bothers me is that the terrorists seem to be inviting civillian
casualties by using human shields, conducting their rocket launches
from civillian neighborhoods, and when children are killed in the
crossfire, parading their dead bodies in front of media cameras for
hours. One could almost think they're inviting these tragedies.

So then the question becomes, does Israel want to play into the hands of
the terrorists? Would they be better off by not relying on bombing and
missile launches, and even artillery targeted at launching sites, when
it is known that the fuses are lit and the culprits are long gone before
the incoming fire blasts civilian houses to rubble.

First, one must understand the enemy.
In this case, the enemy is a populace at large that expressly desires
the extermination of Isreal and, secondly, the submission or
extermination of all other non-muslims.
So long as the general population supports, aids and abets the tactics
of the terrorists (including voting them into political positions,
allowing them to place military equipment among civilian populations,
and parading dead bodies that frequently are unrelated to whatever news
event is being filmed) they are de facto participants in the terror and
are themselves viable targets.

Hmmm, I think I need to expand this diatribe a bit.

This is not a European game played by the numbers; a clockwork of
18th century strategems and tactics. This is a proxy war between two
ancient tribes manipulated by globalist Neocons and supplied by the
US, Britain, Russia, North Korea and China.

At the fundamental level, the Arabs are pissed because their land was
stolen from them, first by the British and more recently in 1947 by
European Zionists under the guise of Jewish settlers who were backed
by the US government. Prior to that, there was no conflict between
Jews and Arabs, nor between Muslims and Jews.

Until that slight is remedied there can't possibly be peace.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
If they don't want to be targets, they need to leave the combat zone,
stop supporting the terrorists, and vote out the politicians that are a
part of the terrorist organization.

The people whose ancestors inhabited the area we call the Middle East
for the past 10,000 years, will live and die on their land. They are
all in this togther - men, women and children. Their homes are the
villages, farms and cities where they work.

Where they can protect their families they do so but because
of their lifestyle, the terrain and that they must posses their
land in order to protect it, it is ludicrious to assume or complain
that some are used as "human shields".

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
As can be seen by the muslim on muslim violence in Iraq, the terrorists
don't care about their own any more than they care about the women,
children and non-combatants of Isreal.
The Isrealis, on the other hand, at least attempt to target
terrorists rather than indiscriminantly sending bombs into bona-fide
civilian areas; they warn the populace in advance of attacks, and
target the places that Hezbollah uses to launch it's rockets.
Isreal uses professional military, in professional dress, and
military equipment.
Hezbollah uses professional terrorists (or "guerillas" if you
prefer) who dress and live and travel in civilian clothes, civilian
areas and have no identifiable "military" bases or targets.
Hezbollah fires rockets into civilian areas rather than the easily
identifiable military areas or targets.
The terrorists routinely bring truckloads of frozen dead,
especially children, to areas and bring out the bodies for western
cameras. It's world class propoganda intended to engender sympathy for
the locals and anger at Isreal.
And it works.

Get used to it. If you want Israel to kill "hezbollah" you will
need to kill all the women and children as well.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Isreal's hands are tied in that if they do not respond to the
terrorists, the terrorists have a free hand to keep killing Isrealis.
If Isreal responds to the terrorists, as they have a right and
responsibility to do, then the world is shown con artist propoganda of
dead children, civilians, pregnant women, etc and gets blamed for
causing so much human suffering.

Israel's hands are not tied. The Israelis know full well why they
are neither trusted or welcome. The religious Jews claim that their
god has said they are better than others and are therefore entitled
to take what they want. I wasn't there so I don't know if this is
true or not but I do know that there are others who reject this
claim and are prepared to die for their beliefs.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
The existence of "palestinian arabs" is a fraud. There is no such
thing. The arabic folk who lived in the area when Isreal was formed had
no self-identity as "palestinians". That was dreamed up by the radicals
whose sole purpose was to marginalize and eventually destroy Isreal,
but over the years the term has become so normative that most people in
the west think that "Palestine" was actually a people and culture for
ages.

A fraud?

Documents show that about 600,000 Arabs (Muslim and Christian) and
Jews lived in the area of Palestine as had their ancestors for at
least 4 centuries before the European Jews invaded in 1947.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
"Palestine" is derived from "Philistine"... those folk who
disappeared over 2000 years ago and were not ever Arabic, but
descendants of Greek and Macedonian seamen. The modern Arabs in
palestine are descendants of the Arabs who raged out of the desert
behind Mohammed 1300 years ago, killing and destroying everyone who did
not submit to Islam.

That's not quite the whole story.

The modern Arabs are the blood cousins of the ancient Jews of
the Middle East.

Few modern Jews in the US, Europe or Israel are directly related to
those of the Middle East, most being Ashkenazi from Europe.

1. The people of the Old Testament 3,000 to 4,000 years ago,
were the ancestors of the Jews and Arabs of the New Testament
period. They were of the same bloodline.

2. Following a Jewish revolt, Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD and
killed all the Jews and Christians they could find. Those they
missed were a relative few families had left the area some years
earlier.

3. After the First Council of Nicaea in AD 325, documents describe
the Christian religion as already devisive and distinct from it's
origins, and the rebanded Jewish religion was a copy of the
corrupt version that had led to the Christian split.

Mohammed created Islam during the early 600s AD with the help of
sympathetic Jewish rabbis as an improved Judaism, a replacement
for Arab tribesmen who would not accept either Christianity or
Judaism. The religion did catch on and it was quickly
perverted, as are all religions, to suit local politics.

Islam has essentially the same history, the same prophets, the
same tribal codes as Judaism. The perspective of god is
different as are some of the dietary laws and code of social
behavior.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Islam's goal has not changed. The Islamic goal is world domination
with all others either killed or submitted.

The Koran speaks of retaining ancestoral lands, not traveling the
seven seas in search of conquests. Within their lands, non-Muslims
must be welcomed and protected, but cannot be full citizens.

As for killing non-Muslims outright just because they are not
Muslims, that of course is not true.

However, that does emphasize another difference between the two
religions and societies. One can officially become a Muslim whereas
one cannot become a Jew. The Jewish lineage is passed through
a Jewish mother. Its a closed shop. The Jewish convert is in name
only.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Theirs is the culture that continues human slavery, female
mutilation, and religious persecution beyond what anyone else can
imagine. On every front, the Islamic goal is domination and the
imposition of Sharia law.
Theirs is the culture that arrests or kills people for proselytizing
any religion but Islam. Christians are arrested and jailed, at best,
for handing out christian literature. Moslems who convert are condemned
to death.

Shall I post again some of the jucier Jewish laws? Shall I note the
obsessive social posturing and exclusivity practiced by even modern
Jews.

Islam can't hold a candle to the carnage and misanthropic history
of Judaism. Talk about your desert war god pointing out the next
bloody conquest - now, those were the days!


Theocratic states, such as the one the Taliban created in Afghanistan,
are dictatorships run by religious zealots. Israel, offically a
secular state, has battled its own orthodox element for sixty some
years for fear that it would come to power. You ain't seen nothing
till you've seen the Sanhedrin at work. Just ask the Christians.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
The fundamental question boils down to the basic idea of human
existence, which can be summarized by the U.S. Declaration of
Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men
are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit
of Happiness."
Coupled with the preamble to the US Constitution: "..in
order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic
tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general
welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our
posterity,"
we can see that Isreal has no option but to continue it's
efforts to secure it's existence and defend it's populace from both
internal and external terrorists. As a free people invoking those
statements regarding ourselves and our world view, we do well to choose
aid to Isreal against the terrorists rather than submission to a world
view that expressly wishes us dead or enslaved.

Fine. That's a nice thought. Now just have Israel resolve the
issue of stolen land and its threats of expansion and we can go to
lunch.

Oh, and you'd better do something about the Zionists and Neocons,
largely Jewish, because they don't give a damn about the Constitution
or the Preamble.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
I know full well that the US Declaration and Constitution do not
apply to or in Isreal; however, if we Americans fully believe these
principles, then to stand up for those principles as they apply to
others can only strengthen them as we apply them to ourselves.

You're right, they don't apply and to even use them in the same
context is a bad joke.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Isreal is under seige from many sides. Yet, even so, they allow
people to worship as they will. They agreed long ago to allow the
Temple Mount to continue to be administered by the Islamic presence
there, in spite of the fact that it is the place where history places
Isreal's Temple, and faith says is the place where God would reside on
earth.
Isreal allows all citizens to vote. Isreal allows diversity of
language, culture, faith and politics. Isreal encourages the free
exchange of ideas and the openness of business.
Contrast that behavior, even under seige, with the world view of
Iran, the Taliban, and even our friend Saudi Arabia.
Before we condemn Isreal for it's actions toward it's enemies, let's
look carefully at what the enemy is, what it stands for, and how it
behaves.
Regards,
mark evins

Nice speech Mark. But do try to keep a balanced perspective and
realize that underneath the layers of religious rhetoric lies some
real complaints by real people, that must be resolved.



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Post by S***@flashlight.net
Documents show that about 600,000 Arabs (Muslim and Christian) and
Jews lived in the area of Palestine as had their ancestors for at
least 4 centuries before the European Jews invaded in 1947.

But did they have a flag?

"I claim this terroritory of Virginia for Queen Elizabeth and England!"

"Hey you can't do that we live here!"

"Where is your flag? No flag no country! That's the rules!"

"I claim this land Australia for Great Britain!"

"Wait on a minute Bruce we live here!"

"Where's yer flag then Cobber?"

"Darth Vader sire, rebels are attacking!"

"What do they want?"

"I don't know, but they've brought a flag!"

"The bastards!"

Eddie Izzard

[m***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Stuart Wheaton

Post by Gus

Post by Stuart Wheaton
If over 1/3 of the victims of Israel's bombs were not children, this
case would be FAR stronger.
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics. The question
is whether a state actor, using precision munitions, is right to cause
such massive collateral damage, and whether the relatives of those 100+
children will resort to terrorism to avenge their losses.

That is a very good thought provoking response.
What bothers me is that the terrorists seem to be inviting civillian
casualties by using human shields, conducting their rocket launches
from civillian neighborhoods, and when children are killed in the
crossfire, parading their dead bodies in front of media cameras for
hours. One could almost think they're inviting these tragedies.

So then the question becomes, does Israel want to play into the hands of
the terrorists? Would they be better off by not relying on bombing and
missile launches, and even artillery targeted at launching sites, when
it is known that the fuses are lit and the culprits are long gone before
the incoming fire blasts civilian houses to rubble.

First, one must understand the enemy.
In this case, the enemy is a populace at large that expressly desires
the extermination of Isreal and, secondly, the submission or
extermination of all other non-muslims.
So long as the general population supports, aids and abets the tactics
of the terrorists (including voting them into political positions,
allowing them to place military equipment among civilian populations,
and parading dead bodies that frequently are unrelated to whatever news
event is being filmed) they are de facto participants in the terror and
are themselves viable targets.

Hmmm, I think I need to expand this diatribe a bit.
This is not a European game played by the numbers; a clockwork of
18th century strategems and tactics. This is a proxy war between two
ancient tribes manipulated by globalist Neocons and supplied by the
US, Britain, Russia, North Korea and China.

No sir. It's a direct war between a modern nation and various groups of
religious zealots whose express desire is the destruction of that
modern nation.
Tho you are correct in saying that it is supplied by every major power
in global politics.

Post by S***@flashlight.net
At the fundamental level, the Arabs are pissed because their land was
stolen from them, first by the British and more recently in 1947 by
European Zionists under the guise of Jewish settlers who were backed
by the US government. Prior to that, there was no conflict between
Jews and Arabs, nor between Muslims and Jews.

Their land was not "stolen" from them by anyone. The Brits reached an
agreement with those who wanted to break loose from the oppression of
the Ottomans, and part of that was the British protectorate.
There are *always* dissenters.

Post by S***@flashlight.net
Until that slight is remedied there can't possibly be peace.

The sole slight is the existence of Israel as a modern state, and it's
only a slight to those rabid muslims who specifically hate Israel, the
jews in general, and the perceived trespass on land that had been
muslim since it was conquered by the muslims centuries before.

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
If they don't want to be targets, they need to leave the combat zone,
stop supporting the terrorists, and vote out the politicians that are a
part of the terrorist organization.

The people whose ancestors inhabited the area we call the Middle East
for the past 10,000 years, will live and die on their land. They are
all in this togther - men, women and children. Their homes are the
villages, farms and cities where they work.

Yup. Jews, christians, coptics, zoroastrians, muslims....

Post by S***@flashlight.net
Where they can protect their families they do so but because
of their lifestyle, the terrain and that they must posses their
land in order to protect it, it is ludicrious to assume or complain
that some are used as "human shields".

True. They are willing participants and lend support to the terrorists.
They make their bed and can lay in it.
Good point.

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
As can be seen by the muslim on muslim violence in Iraq, the terrorists
don't care about their own any more than they care about the women,
children and non-combatants of Isreal.
The Isrealis, on the other hand, at least attempt to target
terrorists rather than indiscriminantly sending bombs into bona-fide
civilian areas; they warn the populace in advance of attacks, and
target the places that Hezbollah uses to launch it's rockets.
Isreal uses professional military, in professional dress, and
military equipment.
Hezbollah uses professional terrorists (or "guerillas" if you
prefer) who dress and live and travel in civilian clothes, civilian
areas and have no identifiable "military" bases or targets.
Hezbollah fires rockets into civilian areas rather than the easily
identifiable military areas or targets.
The terrorists routinely bring truckloads of frozen dead,
especially children, to areas and bring out the bodies for western
cameras. It's world class propoganda intended to engender sympathy for
the locals and anger at Isreal.
And it works.

Get used to it. If you want Israel to kill "hezbollah" you will
need to kill all the women and children as well.

If this is your view, don't complain when Israel does just that. After
all, that is exactly what hezbollah and hamas and others do to Israel.

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Isreal's hands are tied in that if they do not respond to the
terrorists, the terrorists have a free hand to keep killing Isrealis.
If Isreal responds to the terrorists, as they have a right and
responsibility to do, then the world is shown con artist propoganda of
dead children, civilians, pregnant women, etc and gets blamed for
causing so much human suffering.

Israel's hands are not tied. The Israelis know full well why they
are neither trusted or welcome. The religious Jews claim that their
god has said they are better than others and are therefore entitled
to take what they want. I wasn't there so I don't know if this is
true or not but I do know that there are others who reject this
claim and are prepared to die for their beliefs.

Oh, please.
The question is whether a recognised nation/state has the
duty/responsibility/right to protect it's citizens from aggression by
folk who want to kill them and destroy their country.
Every ethnic/religious group has every reason to believe that they are
their god's "chosen" people. It's a fundamental principle of group
identity to believe one's own group is "best". It's no different for
the muslims (or christians) who insist that infidels are unworthy or
unfit or must be going to hell because they don't believe the same way
as group X.

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
The existence of "palestinian arabs" is a fraud. There is no such
thing. The arabic folk who lived in the area when Isreal was formed had
no self-identity as "palestinians". That was dreamed up by the radicals
whose sole purpose was to marginalize and eventually destroy Isreal,
but over the years the term has become so normative that most people in
the west think that "Palestine" was actually a people and culture for
ages.

A fraud?
Documents show that about 600,000 Arabs (Muslim and Christian) and
Jews lived in the area of Palestine as had their ancestors for at
least 4 centuries before the European Jews invaded in 1947.

They did not self identify as "palestinian". They were arabs and
persians, and leftover europeans and those of mixed ethnicity. There
has not been a self identified palestinian until the PLO came about to
give themselves some sort of identity and victim status.

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
"Palestine" is derived from "Philistine"... those folk who
disappeared over 2000 years ago and were not ever Arabic, but
descendants of Greek and Macedonian seamen. The modern Arabs in
palestine are descendants of the Arabs who raged out of the desert
behind Mohammed 1300 years ago, killing and destroying everyone who did
not submit to Islam.

That's not quite the whole story.
The modern Arabs are the blood cousins of the ancient Jews of
the Middle East.

Yep.

Post by S***@flashlight.net
Few modern Jews in the US, Europe or Israel are directly related to
those of the Middle East, most being Ashkenazi from Europe.
1. The people of the Old Testament 3,000 to 4,000 years ago,
were the ancestors of the Jews and Arabs of the New Testament
period. They were of the same bloodline.

Yup.

Post by S***@flashlight.net
2. Following a Jewish revolt, Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD and
killed all the Jews and Christians they could find. Those they
missed were a relative few families had left the area some years
earlier.

No sir. Judeah was primarily (tho not exclusively) a jewish client
state. Their capital was Jerusalem, and their sole temple was there.
During the various jewish holidays, Jerusalem was routinely swollen
with visitors from near and far who came specifically for those
celebrations, and judaism was widespread throughout the empire.
The Romans killed those Jews who revolted, those who got in their
way, and put down the rebellion; but it took several years to do so.
Jerusalem was declared off limits to jews, but religious centers and
schools were allowed to operate in various smaller cities in the area,
and synogogues throughout the empire continued to operate.
Further rebellion in the early decades of the 2nd century continued
the strife for some years.
To suggest that the Romans "missed" a relative few jews who "had left
the area some years earlier" is grossly inaccurate.

Post by S***@flashlight.net
3. After the First Council of Nicaea in AD 325, documents describe
the Christian religion as already devisive and distinct from it's
origins, and the rebanded Jewish religion was a copy of the
corrupt version that had led to the Christian split.

No, sir. The Council of Nicea showed a remarkable homogeniety
among the bishops of the mainstream church. It's purpose was to examine
charges against one Arius who was propogating views that the mainstream
church viewed as inaccurate. The result was the excommunication of
Arius, and the established creed that Jesus was one with the Father.
There was no "rebanded" jewish religion; it had never been
"disbanded". Schools and synogogues had continued to operate throughout
the empire from before, during and after the Roman-Jewish wars. The
primary difference was that the jewish religious became rabbinic due to
the destruction of the temple; there was no way to hold the sacrifices
and some means of remaining "pure" had to be found. Those means were an
outgrowth of the pharisaic model of judaism which predated christianity
and the destruction of Jerusalem.

Post by S***@flashlight.net
Mohammed created Islam during the early 600s AD with the help of
sympathetic Jewish rabbis as an improved Judaism, a replacement
for Arab tribesmen who would not accept either Christianity or
Judaism. The religion did catch on and it was quickly
perverted, as are all religions, to suit local politics.

Sure, to an extent. Judaism was long respected for it's high moral
character, and the monotheistic bent suited Mohammed. He learned about
Judaism, and succeeded in appropriated some of the legends, some of the
prophets and some of the customs, but he didn't get it all or get it
all "right".
Any help from jews was more in teaching him about god rather than
forming an "improved" judaism.

Post by S***@flashlight.net
Islam has essentially the same history, the same prophets, the
same tribal codes as Judaism. The perspective of god is
different as are some of the dietary laws and code of social
behavior.

Some of islam is similar to some of judaism. Some of christianity is
similar to some of Greek hero worship, and some of christian ritual is
similar to some of Roman Mithraic ritual.
Saying that Islam and Judaism have "essentially the same history" is
like saying that christianity and mithraism have essentially the same
history.

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Islam's goal has not changed. The Islamic goal is world domination
with all others either killed or submitted.

The Koran speaks of retaining ancestoral lands, not traveling the
seven seas in search of conquests. Within their lands, non-Muslims
must be welcomed and protected, but cannot be full citizens.

The Koran speaks of submitting the world to god. It calls the muslim to
subdue and subject non muslims, and speaks of destroying all infidels.
It has spread by sword from its inception, across Arabia, Syria, Egypt,
etc.

Post by S***@flashlight.net
As for killing non-Muslims outright just because they are not
Muslims, that of course is not true.

It is true. It's also true that the sharia imposes a death penalty for
muslims who convert to other faiths.
Muslim prisons do not provide food for inmates; that must be brought by
relatives or friends. If the relatives and/or friends are also
non-muslims, they risk being arrested and jailed themselves for support
of apostates.
Muslim culture deems appropriate any action taken against jews,
specifically. Rape of jewish women, theft of jewish property, the
general and absolute subservience to muslims in general, the
proscription against selling (as opposed to "giving") to muslims, the
utter absence of legal recourse for a jew against a muslim....
Let's get the truth out, shall we?

Post by S***@flashlight.net
However, that does emphasize another difference between the two
religions and societies. One can officially become a Muslim whereas
one cannot become a Jew. The Jewish lineage is passed through
a Jewish mother. Its a closed shop. The Jewish convert is in name
only.

This is false. Conversion to judaism is allowed and has been for
millenia. Judaism was popular in the Roman Empire prior to the
Roman-Jewish wars, and synogogues enjoyed a fair amount of interest and
conversion throughout the empire.
Christian history shows the conflict between the influence of Paul
and his acceptance of gentile converts without significant application
of law and his opponents who argued specifically in favor of the
application of law regarding gentile converts. The Paulist version was
the easier of the two for gentiles, and thus attracted more. After all,
if a grown man doesn't have to be circumcised and no one has to obey
food laws, it's much easier to commit to the "club" as it were.

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Theirs is the culture that continues human slavery, female
mutilation, and religious persecution beyond what anyone else can
imagine. On every front, the Islamic goal is domination and the
imposition of Sharia law.
Theirs is the culture that arrests or kills people for proselytizing
any religion but Islam. Christians are arrested and jailed, at best,
for handing out christian literature. Moslems who convert are condemned
to death.

Shall I post again some of the jucier Jewish laws? Shall I note the
obsessive social posturing and exclusivity practiced by even modern
Jews.

Knock yourself out. Whatever silliness you imagine on the part of jews
doesn't speak to or approach the acts of slavery, mutilation, torture
and inhumanity of muslim culture and law.
If you like, you might also post the laws requiring fairness to all
creatures, things and property, the law requiring the forgiveness of
debt and the return of property.
If you like, you can post the NT admonishments against debt, interest
and divorce.
Few of those are practiced by modern jews or christians; that you want
to compare ancient practices to modern inhumanity is rather odd, but go
ahead.

Post by S***@flashlight.net
Islam can't hold a candle to the carnage and misanthropic history
of Judaism. Talk about your desert war god pointing out the next
bloody conquest - now, those were the days!

Oh? You wish to compare the conquering of Canaan and the small states
of Israel (destroyed around 500 bce) and Judeah (destroyed around 135
ce) to the Ottoman Empire, with borders ranging from the Persian Gulf
to the Alps near Vienna, to Algiers; encompassing all of Greece,
Turkey, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and more, which finally drew its
last breath in 1923?
Or do you want to compare modern Israel standing up to and defeating
multiple muslim nations who launched a war of aggression before the ink
was dry on the UN resolution creating Israel?

Post by S***@flashlight.net
Theocratic states, such as the one the Taliban created in Afghanistan,
are dictatorships run by religious zealots. Israel, offically a
secular state, has battled its own orthodox element for sixty some
years for fear that it would come to power. You ain't seen nothing
till you've seen the Sanhedrin at work. Just ask the Christians.

You seem to be alluding to the "trial of Jesus" here, and that would
seem to be an effort to antagonize christians.
The Sanhedrin had no power to invoke a death sentence on anyone. The
Sanhedrin never, ever met at night, nor during a Sabbath, and certainly
not during Passover.
The Romans, on the other hand, crucified bandits and troublemakers by
the thousands. Causing a riot in Jerusalem during Passover would be
ample cause to crucify the offender.

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
The fundamental question boils down to the basic idea of human
existence, which can be summarized by the U.S. Declaration of
Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men
are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit
of Happiness."
Coupled with the preamble to the US Constitution: "..in
order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic
tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general
welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our
posterity,"
we can see that Isreal has no option but to continue it's
efforts to secure it's existence and defend it's populace from both
internal and external terrorists. As a free people invoking those
statements regarding ourselves and our world view, we do well to choose
aid to Isreal against the terrorists rather than submission to a world
view that expressly wishes us dead or enslaved.

Fine. That's a nice thought. Now just have Israel resolve the
issue of stolen land and its threats of expansion and we can go to
lunch.

What stolen land?
Are you any more willing to discuss your own land as being stolen, and
the repatriation of it's previous occupants, than Cliff?

Post by S***@flashlight.net
Oh, and you'd better do something about the Zionists and Neocons,
largely Jewish, because they don't give a damn about the Constitution
or the Preamble.

Which has what to do with the notion that Israelis, as do we Americans,
have the right to live peacefully in their country and to expect their
government to defend them against aggressors who are actively and
specifically trying to kill them?

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
I know full well that the US Declaration and Constitution do not
apply to or in Isreal; however, if we Americans fully believe these
principles, then to stand up for those principles as they apply to
others can only strengthen them as we apply them to ourselves.

You're right, they don't apply and to even use them in the same
context is a bad joke.

No, it's actually not. It's simply an effort to put into context our
own ideas of human rights and the responsibility of government with
what Israel is doing. In light of our own national ideal, Israel is
acting correctly if unpleasantly.
War is hell.

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Isreal is under seige from many sides. Yet, even so, they allow
people to worship as they will. They agreed long ago to allow the
Temple Mount to continue to be administered by the Islamic presence
there, in spite of the fact that it is the place where history places
Isreal's Temple, and faith says is the place where God would reside on
earth.
Isreal allows all citizens to vote. Isreal allows diversity of
language, culture, faith and politics. Isreal encourages the free
exchange of ideas and the openness of business.
Contrast that behavior, even under seige, with the world view of
Iran, the Taliban, and even our friend Saudi Arabia.
Before we condemn Isreal for it's actions toward it's enemies, let's
look carefully at what the enemy is, what it stands for, and how it
behaves.
Regards,
mark evins

Nice speech Mark. But do try to keep a balanced perspective and
realize that underneath the layers of religious rhetoric lies some
real complaints by real people, that must be resolved.

Sure enough. And the opposing view that the muslims who want to destroy
Israel do so out of their own ideal of what "should" be reality is
perfectly valid. The goal of conquest by the muslim extremists is
distasteful, but it is a common enough approach to the world with a
long history among nearly all humans of every ethnic/religious/cultural
background.
Turning the clock back 60 years is hardly an answer in the middle east
just as it is no answer to problems in any other area of the world or
any distance in time. By approaching the middle east difficulties in
terms of "group a" stealing from "group b", we might as well talk
about Cypress and who it "should' belong to, who it is that "should"
occupy Scotland, or England or North or South America, or whether to
round up everyone of african descent (which would be all of humanity)
and ship 'em back to africa and let 'em fight it out there.
It's not workable.
What we have to work with is the reality that faces us, which is that
Israel is a nation state recognised on the world stage. It's being
attacked by non-nation state guerillas who target civilians, civilian
enterprises and seek as much death and destruction among the population
of Israel as possible in their effort to destroy the country and
conquer it in the name of Allah.
It's a difficult concept to internalize; we in the US haven't had to
face constant bombardment of our civillians from our neighbors, nor do
we have immediate neighbors who express open and official desire for
the complete destruction of our country. But it's the reality of life
in Israel, and has been since it's inception in 1948.

Best Regards,
mark evins

Post by S***@flashlight.net
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Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by S***@flashlight.net
At the fundamental level, the Arabs are pissed because their land was
stolen from them, first by the British and more recently in 1947 by
European Zionists under the guise of Jewish settlers who were backed
by the US government. Prior to that, there was no conflict between
Jews and Arabs, nor between Muslims and Jews.

Their land was not "stolen" from them by anyone. The Brits reached an
agreement with those who wanted to break loose from the oppression of
the Ottomans, and part of that was the British protectorate.
There are *always* dissenters.

But surely...

* Arab = inhabitant of Arab-ia?
* Jews lived in Palestine in 1 AD?
* Romans stole Palestine from them and evicted large numbers?
* In the 7th century the Arabs stole Palestine from the Romans?
* During the middle ages, the Turks stole it from the Arabs?
* After the Turks were defeated by the British, a League of Nations
mandate awarded the territories to the British and French (who didn't
need or want them, being short of cash at the time).
* During the last 2 Jews were returning to Palestine.

At what point did the Arabs own the land, in the last millenium?

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by S***@flashlight.net
Until that slight is remedied there can't possibly be peace.

What sort of person is willing to shed oceans of blood over 'slights'
based on events before anyone now living there was born?

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
The sole slight is the existence of Israel as a modern state, and it's
only a slight to those rabid muslims who specifically hate Israel,

But which moslems do not? Look at how they act, what they say.
Don't they hate everyone who isn't a moslem, which is most of the
world?

It looks very much as if it's just that they start with Israel. If
Israel didn't exist, they'd start in on whoever was next. If this is
so -- and it looks a lot like it -- then as it stands, Israel is doing
every non-Moslem in the world a huge favour by diverting these
blood-crazed moslems from attacking the rest of us.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
If they don't want to be targets, they need to leave the combat zone,
stop supporting the terrorists, and vote out the politicians that are a
part of the terrorist organization.

The people whose ancestors inhabited the area we call the Middle East
for the past 10,000 years, will live and die on their land. They are
all in this togther - men, women and children.

Thus they are combatants, then, not "innocent civilians". Under the
Geneva convention, then, Israel would be perfectly justified to kill
the lot. In both Syria and Iraq, Arab governments have done just this.
Are they wrong?

There is a simple moral principle here: do not do to others what you
would not like done to yourself. Every day it feels as if Moslems
break it, to express their Moslemness. Isn't it the case that, in the
Arab world, where Israel is concerned, every Arab feels that "what's
mine is mine; what's yours is negotiable"?

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by S***@flashlight.net
3. After the First Council of Nicaea in AD 325, documents describe
the Christian religion as already devisive and distinct from it's
origins, and the rebanded Jewish religion was a copy of the
corrupt version that had led to the Christian split.

No, sir. The Council of Nicea showed a remarkable homogeniety
among the bishops of the mainstream church. It's purpose was to examine
charges against one Arius who was propogating views that the mainstream
church viewed as inaccurate. The result was the excommunication of
Arius, and the established creed that Jesus was one with the Father.

Indeed.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Islam's goal has not changed. The Islamic goal is world domination
with all others either killed or submitted.

The Koran speaks of retaining ancestoral lands, not traveling the
seven seas in search of conquests.

Then how did all those Arabs get into Palestine? Into Egypt? Into
Syria, and Iraq, and Turkey, and Morocco, and Persia, and India? It
certainly wasn't by peaceful immigration!

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by S***@flashlight.net
Within their lands, non-Muslims must be welcomed and protected, but cannot
be full citizens.

I presume that you would have no objections, then, in non-Moslem
countries, for Moslems to be "welcomed and protected" but treated as
second-class citizens? Yet here in England I hear endless Moslem
demands for privileges. Please explain.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by S***@flashlight.net
As for killing non-Muslims outright just because they are not
Muslims, that of course is not true.

Curious. What about Moslems who convert to Christianity?

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Theirs is the culture that continues human slavery, female
mutilation, and religious persecution beyond what anyone else can
imagine. On every front, the Islamic goal is domination and the
imposition of Sharia law.
Theirs is the culture that arrests or kills people for proselytizing
any religion but Islam. Christians are arrested and jailed, at best,
for handing out christian literature. Moslems who convert are condemned
to death.

Shall I post again some of the jucier Jewish laws? Shall I note the
obsessive social posturing and exclusivity practiced by even modern
Jews.

Knock yourself out.

Indeed. As someone who is neither a Jew nor a Moslem, I can tell you
which stands closer to the common moral standard of mankind. Every
accusation you make against the Jews is equally true against the
Moslems, including "exclusivity". But the reverse is not true.

Of course part of this is that Moslems have lived under Turkish rule,
and been dehumanised by it, while Jews have largely lived in Western
states and learned civilised ways. Both being human, both are affected
by their environment.

That Jews are as willing to persecute as Moslems is surely
indisputable, such behaviour, again, being common to all mankind. They
have merely had fewer opportunities, although I get the impression that
some of the non-Jewish inhabitants of Israel -- honest ones -- might
have a tale or two to tell.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by S***@flashlight.net
Islam can't hold a candle to the carnage and misanthropic history
of Judaism.

When did the Jews fly airplanes into skyscrapers last?

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by S***@flashlight.net
Theocratic states, such as the one the Taliban created in Afghanistan,
are dictatorships run by religious zealots.

They are also typical states produced by a revival of Islam. The
Taliban were by no means the worst of these.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by S***@flashlight.net
Fine. That's a nice thought. Now just have Israel resolve the
issue of stolen land and its threats of expansion and we can go to
lunch.

What stolen land?

It's just an excuse. Anyone can claim this sort of nonsense; the key
thing is that they *want* to fight.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Turning the clock back 60 years is hardly an answer in the middle east

Actually I think it is. Place the whole region under colonial rule,
with puppet Arab rulers and soldiers who don't have to answer to
dishonest western "human rights" campaigners (who are always, somehow,
willing to turn a country into a desert so long as they injure their
own country), and enforce peace that way. The period between 1918 and
1940 was the sole period of decent rule that the middle east has ever
known.

Of course someone would have to find a way to get rid of all the modern
weaponry in the region... (a small technical difficulty).

All the best,

Roger Pearse

[Gary H. Lucas]

Post by Gus

Post by Stuart Wheaton
If over 1/3 of the victims of Israel's bombs were not children, this
case would be FAR stronger.
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics. The question
is whether a state actor, using precision munitions, is right to cause
such massive collateral damage, and whether the relatives of those 100+
children will resort to terrorism to avenge their losses.

That is a very good thought provoking response.
What bothers me is that the terrorists seem to be inviting civillian
casualties by using human shields, conducting their rocket launches
from civillian neighborhoods, and when children are killed in the
crossfire, parading their dead bodies in front of media cameras for
hours. One could almost think they're inviting these tragedies.
GW

It wouldn't be terrorism if they weren't any innocent women and children
involved. It would just be a bunch of dead terrorists.

How about if terrorism had a price? What if the people you were terrorizing
decided that the correct punishment for you terrorizing their family was for
the victims survivors to hunt down and kill every relative of yours? They
could start with those video tapes made by the suicide bombers. Look up
their family and kill them all, and advertise the fact that for every
suicide bomber there will be a whole trail of dead family members. Does it
make a difference if the dead women and children are yours?

Gary H. Lucas

[Day Brown]

Post by Gary H. Lucas
How about if terrorism had a price? What if the people you were terrorizing
decided that the correct punishment for you terrorizing their family was for
the victims survivors to hunt down and kill every relative of yours? They
could start with those video tapes made by the suicide bombers. Look up
their family and kill them all, and advertise the fact that for every
suicide bomber there will be a whole trail of dead family members. Does it
make a difference if the dead women and children are yours?

That's crude, but cute. But factor in the latest data from FMRI brain
scans, brain biochemistry and blood hormones, and you realize that
terrorists are like junkyard dogs; born not made.

So- all you gotta do, is kill the *boys*, or capture them and castrate
them. That'll adjust their attitudes without testosterone.

But there's another tactic that would really throw terror into the
hearts of the.... *terrorists*.

Use the new lie detection techniques outlined by Dr. Paul Ekman, or the
EEG, or FMRI brain scans to sort out terrorists from innocent suspects.
Then, when you are sure that he is known by his comrades in arms, dose
him with a few hundred micrograms of LSD 25.

It will do the same to him that it did to good Christian kids back in
the 1960's. It'll make them have a direct experience of the divine, and
realize that it is *NOT* Allah. Just as American kids realized it was
not Jesus or Jehovah. Which was why LSD was made illegal.

And then, while the Jihadim is having this experience, get him to talk
about it and *get the video*. Broadcast it on TV, and the Jihadim will
see a fate worse than death; their comrade is no longer a Moslem, and he
wont be joining them in Mohammed's wholy whorehouse fucking 12 year old
virgins. Acid kinda does that, lets a person sort thru bullschitt.

[Cliff]

Post by Day Brown
Just as American kids realized it was
not Jesus or Jehovah.

Loading Image...

[Day Brown]

Post by Cliff

Post by Day Brown
Just as American kids realized it was
not Jesus or Jehovah.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/scratchpad/1143pe.jpg

That poor sorry muthafuker. http://anzi.biz/machveli.htm
we are not at the stage where, having done what the kingmakers wanted,
it is time to discover his faults before sending him away, he taking the
guilt for the fiat accompli with him.

[S***@flashlight.net]

Post by Gus

Post by Stuart Wheaton
If over 1/3 of the victims of Israel's bombs were not children, this
case would be FAR stronger.
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics. The question
is whether a state actor, using precision munitions, is right to cause
such massive collateral damage, and whether the relatives of those 100+
children will resort to terrorism to avenge their losses.

That is a very good thought provoking response.
What bothers me is that the terrorists seem to be inviting civillian
casualties by using human shields, conducting their rocket launches
from civillian neighborhoods, and when children are killed in the
crossfire, parading their dead bodies in front of media cameras for
hours. One could almost think they're inviting these tragedies.

When its your turn to be shelled in your home, with
your family and neigbors being killed, and with no place to go,
maybe you'll come up with the correct procedure. Then you
can write a book and call it, "The Proper Etiquette For Terrorists
Under Fire".

Post by Gus
GW

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[Cliff]

Post by Stuart Wheaton
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics.

They just need billions of dollars worth of free US arms
so as to be able to do far more damage with little risk
to themselves & all will be well.

[Hawke]

Post by Stuart Wheaton

Post by Gus
For 50 years Israel's neighbors have been attacking them. I guess the
difference I see is that Israel targets terrorists while terrorists
target innocent civillians. Israel might shoot a missile at some
terrorists in a car but the terrorists like to climb aboard city busses
and blow everyone up. I see a big difference, can't you?
GW

If over 1/3 of the victims of Israel's bombs were not children, this
case would be FAR stronger.
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics. The question
is whether a state actor, using precision munitions, is right to cause
such massive collateral damage, and whether the relatives of those 100+
children will resort to terrorism to avenge their losses.

With WWII warfare changed. Before that wars were almost exclusively fought
between opposing armies and civilians were left out of it for the most part.
Since WWII civilians have become legitimate targets of opportunity just the
same as the military forces. Breaking the will of the people who support a
nation is now part of warfare. Since the Lebanese people are solidly behind
Hezbollah, in the modern style of war that makes them fair game. If they
suffer enough they will stop believing that supporting Hezbollah is such a
good idea, at least that is the thinking behind the tactics. Kill the
enemy's soldiers and kill the rest of the population too as punishment for
backing the military. That is war in today's world. The civilians pay the
price just the same as their soldiers do. It doesn't matter if it's Iraq or
Lebanon that is how it goes. And that is one more reason why it should
always be the last resort to choose to start a war. Nowadays everyone
involved pays a high price. I guess the Lebanese didn't think supporting
terrorists would cost them anything. They were wrong.

Hawke

[Day Brown]

Post by Hawke
With WWII warfare changed. Before that wars were almost exclusively fought
between opposing armies and civilians were left out of it for the most part.
Since WWII civilians have become legitimate targets of opportunity just the
same as the military forces. Breaking the will of the people who support a
nation is now part of warfare. Since the Lebanese people are solidly behind
Hezbollah, in the modern style of war that makes them fair game. If they
suffer enough they will stop believing that supporting Hezbollah is such a
good idea, at least that is the thinking behind the tactics. Kill the
enemy's soldiers and kill the rest of the population too as punishment for
backing the military. That is war in today's world. The civilians pay the
price just the same as their soldiers do. It doesn't matter if it's Iraq or
Lebanon that is how it goes. And that is one more reason why it should
always be the last resort to choose to start a war. Nowadays everyone
involved pays a high price. I guess the Lebanese didn't think supporting
terrorists would cost them anything. They were wrong.

Well put. Gen Sherman sent the same message going thru Georgia.

However, as I discuss in other posts, so I wont repeat it here, there
are other newer modern tools that would be even more effective without
having to kill nearly so many people.

[Guido]

Post by Hawke
Since the Lebanese people are solidly behind
Hezbollah, in the modern style of war that makes them fair game.

Blink! Blink! The Maronite christians, and the Druze and Sunni muslims
support Hezbollah? What could possibly have turned these traditional
enemies of Hezbollah into supporters?

Post by Hawke
If they
suffer enough they will stop believing that supporting Hezbollah is such a
good idea, at least that is the thinking behind the tactics.

So is it an act of terrorism on the part of Israel or an attempt to
plunge the country back into a state of civil war?

[Lawrence Glickman]

Post by Guido

Post by Hawke
Since the Lebanese people are solidly behind
Hezbollah, in the modern style of war that makes them fair game.

Blink! Blink! The Maronite christians, and the Druze and Sunni muslims
support Hezbollah? What could possibly have turned these traditional
enemies of Hezbollah into supporters?

Post by Hawke
If they
suffer enough they will stop believing that supporting Hezbollah is such a
good idea, at least that is the thinking behind the tactics.

So is it an act of terrorism on the part of Israel or an attempt to
plunge the country back into a state of civil war?

Neither. it is called self-defense

[Guido]

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by Guido
So is it an act of terrorism on the part of Israel or an attempt to
plunge the country back into a state of civil war?

Neither. it is called self-defense

Try again!

Self defence is when you defend yourself against a person who would is
intent on harming you. What we have here is a situation similar to
where, having been mugged, you return, some hours later to the general
area where the mugging occurred, and shoot everyone in the area.

You'd be hard pressed, even in texas, to find a jury that thought that
was an act of self defense.

[Lawrence Glickman]

Post by Guido

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by Guido
So is it an act of terrorism on the part of Israel or an attempt to
plunge the country back into a state of civil war?

Neither. it is called self-defense

Try again!
Self defence is when you defend yourself against a person who would is
intent on harming you. What we have here is a situation similar to
where, having been mugged, you return, some hours later to the general
area where the mugging occurred, and shoot everyone in the area.
You'd be hard pressed, even in texas, to find a jury that thought that
was an act of self defense.

you obviously are missing something. either information, or the tool
to process that information with. which is it?

[Guido]

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by Guido
You'd be hard pressed, even in texas, to find a jury that thought that
was an act of self defense.

you obviously are missing something. either information, or the tool
to process that information with. which is it?

So you don't believe that a Texan jury would categorize Israel's bombing
of civilian areas some hours after terrorists fired rockets from within
a 100 miles of the area as self-defense either.

Good perhaps we are getting somewhere. Call it what it undoubtedly is:
collective punishment, reprisal killings, terrorism.

Army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz warned the Lebanese
government that the military will target infrastructure and
"turn back the clock in Lebanon by 20 years" unless the
soldiers were freed. In the past, Israel hit power stations
feeding electricity the Lebanese capital, where one third
of the country's 3.5 million residents live.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203076,00.html

[Cliff]

On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 06:10:11 -0500, Lawrence Glickman

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by Guido

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by Guido
So is it an act of terrorism on the part of Israel or an attempt to
plunge the country back into a state of civil war?

Neither. it is called self-defense

Try again!
Self defence is when you defend yourself against a person who would is
intent on harming you. What we have here is a situation similar to
where, having been mugged, you return, some hours later to the general
area where the mugging occurred, and shoot everyone in the area.
You'd be hard pressed, even in texas, to find a jury that thought that
was an act of self defense.

you obviously are missing something. either information, or the tool
to process that information with. which is it?

Faux "news"?

[Hawke]

Post by Guido

Post by Lawrence Glickman
Neither. it is called self-defense

Try again!
Self defence is when you defend yourself against a person who would is
intent on harming you. What we have here is a situation similar to
where, having been mugged, you return, some hours later to the general
area where the mugging occurred, and shoot everyone in the area.
You'd be hard pressed, even in texas, to find a jury that thought that
was an act of self defense.

Your analogy doesn't work. Hezbollah has an important place at the table in
Lebanon. They are accepted by large numbers of the public. They don't
consider them terrorists. Even though not all the factions in Lebanon like
Hezbollah there is a large segment of the population that does. By
supporting Hezbollah they have aligned themselves with this group. Now that
this group has roused the ire of the Israeli army it's bad for all the
Lebanese. It's a shame that some of them are paying for something they had
nothing to do with but as they say, life ain't fair. Look at it like the
teacher making the whole class stay late because a couple of kids were
acting up. It's kind of like that. The thing is this though, if the Lebanese
had decided they were not going to tolerate having a private militia sit on
their border and taunt the Israelis until they finally responded this would
never have happened. So, in a way this is the fault of the Lebanese and they
are getting what they deserve. All they had to do is kick out the Hezbollah
and none of this would have happened. They chose to let them stay and do as
they please and this is what came of it.

Hawke

[S***@flashlight.net]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 18:27:24 -0400, Stuart Wheaton

Post by Stuart Wheaton

Post by Gus
For 50 years Israel's neighbors have been attacking them. I guess the
difference I see is that Israel targets terrorists while terrorists
target innocent civillians. Israel might shoot a missile at some
terrorists in a car but the terrorists like to climb aboard city busses
and blow everyone up. I see a big difference, can't you?
GW

If over 1/3 of the victims of Israel's bombs were not children, this
case would be FAR stronger.
It is axiomatic that a terrorist will use terror tactics.
The question
is whether a state actor, using precision munitions, is right to cause
such massive collateral damage, and whether the relatives of those 100+
children will resort to terrorism to avenge their losses.

So, to you one is a terrorist while the other is a "state actor".

Since in 1948 the people that established Israel forcibly took
the land from the people living there, why aren't Israelis called
terrorists?



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[Day Brown]

Post by S***@flashlight.net
Since in 1948 the people that established Israel forcibly took
the land from the people living there, why aren't Israelis called
terrorists?

Cause that's the way things have been done there for 5000 years. Can you
show me any land in that region which was *not* stolen from peaceful
inhabitants?

Why stop at 1948? Why not go back to the Armenian genocide which not
only took the land but *murdered* 3 million Christians? Where is your
self righteousness with that example?

[RonB]

Post by Gus
For 50 years Israel's neighbors have been attacking them. I guess the
difference I see is that Israel targets terrorists while terrorists
target innocent civillians. Israel might shoot a missile at some
terrorists in a car but the terrorists like to climb aboard city
busses and blow everyone up. I see a big difference, can't you?

Gosh, and during that time Israel *never* attacked and killed civilians
in Palestine or Lebanon. (Hint, many, many more Palestinians have died
than have Israelis). Of course, firing missiles into Gaza and killing
kids is *not* an act of terror -- it's only an act of terror if an
Israeli dies. You might want to see if there is anything they can do
about that tunnel vision of yours.

[Gus]

Post by RonB
Gosh, and during that time Israel *never* attacked and killed civilians
in Palestine or Lebanon. (Hint, many, many more Palestinians have died
than have Israelis). Of course, firing missiles into Gaza and killing
kids is *not* an act of terror -- it's only an act of terror if an
Israeli dies. You might want to see if there is anything they can do
about that tunnel vision of yours.
--
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere

My tunnel vision tells me that it is an act of terror when innocent
people are targeted, such as when some fanatic blows up a bus full of
people. It is not an act of terror when a car full of terrorists is
blown up. It is a tragedy if innocents are killed in an incident like
that but what are you going to do?

Question: If all the terrorists would go away tomorrow, do you think
that Israel would still be firing missiles just for something to do?
How about if Israel went away tomorrow, I'll bet you a dollar that
those crazy fanatics would just find someone else to blow up. Gotta get
those virgins somehow.

GW

[Cliff]

Post by Gus
My tunnel vision tells me that it is an act of terror when innocent
people are targeted, such as when some fanatic blows up a bus full of
people. It is not an act of terror when a car full of terrorists is
blown up. It is a tragedy if innocents are killed in an incident like
that but what are you going to do?

http://www.awitness.org/journal/real_iraq_war.html

[John]

Post by Gus

Post by Cliff

Post by Gus

Post by Tim Smith
Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked
every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush
has told the UN "NO." Bush has told the European Union "NO." Bush has
told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister "NO." Twice.

<snipped mumbo jumbo>
Lebanese civillians are in the crossfire which is a shame but Israeli
civillians are the "targets" of terrorists. I don't hear you having any
sympathy for them.

Israel's been bombing many for decades & taking hostages
as well as much else that the UN has very strongly frowned on.
Now somebody did some neocon-style-approved rendition and
they started bombing Lebanon ... FIRST.
--
Cliff

For 50 years Israel's neighbors have been attacking them. I guess the
difference I see is that Israel targets terrorists while terrorists
target innocent civillians. Israel might shoot a missile at some
terrorists in a car but the terrorists like to climb aboard city busses
and blow everyone up. I see a big difference, can't you?
GW

I think the terrorists should all be shot, incuding the ones that blew
up the King David hotel.

[Cliff]

Post by John
I think the terrorists should all be shot, incuding the ones that blew
up the King David hotel.

And the ones that blew up Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, ...?

[Cliff]

Post by Gus

Post by Cliff

Post by Gus

Post by Tim Smith
Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked
every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush
has told the UN "NO." Bush has told the European Union "NO." Bush has
told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister "NO." Twice.

<snipped mumbo jumbo>
Lebanese civillians are in the crossfire which is a shame but Israeli
civillians are the "targets" of terrorists. I don't hear you having any
sympathy for them.

Israel's been bombing many for decades & taking hostages
as well as much else that the UN has very strongly frowned on.
Now somebody did some neocon-style-approved rendition and
they started bombing Lebanon ... FIRST.

For 50 years Israel's neighbors have been attacking them.

For longer than that they have been keeping people in refugee camps,
ignoring the UN, stealing people's homes & property, removing their
rights, keeping hostages & political prisoners, practicing assassination, ...

Post by Gus
I guess the
difference I see is that Israel targets terrorists while terrorists
target innocent civillians.

Bombs from 40,000 feet are pretty selective when fired
at refugee camps, right?
The kill ratio is far, far in Israel's favor as nobody else
has ao many arms from the US.

Post by Gus
Israel might shoot a missile at some
terrorists in a car but the terrorists like to climb aboard city busses
and blow everyone up. I see a big difference, can't you?

Dead seems to be dead.
Everybody gets to call everyone else a "terrorist" if
it makes them feel better. They can wave flags too.

Post by Gus
GW

[Mysterion]

Post by Gus
For 50 years Israel's neighbors have been attacking them. I guess the
difference I see is that Israel targets terrorists while terrorists
target innocent civillians. Israel might shoot a missile at some
terrorists in a car but the terrorists like to climb aboard city busses
and blow everyone up. I see a big difference, can't you?

Yet another shill for Israel is heard from.
Hannity would give you a kiss.

[Gus]

Post by Mysterion
Yet another shill for Israel is heard from.
Hannity would give you a kiss.

When you don't have an adequate reasoned response, go ahead and use the
standard Liberal tactic of personal attack and name-calling. (Hannity
is kinda cute, though.)

GW

[Mysterion]

Post by Gus

Post by Mysterion
Yet another shill for Israel is heard from.
Hannity would give you a kiss.

When you don't have an adequate reasoned response, go ahead and use the
standard Liberal tactic of personal attack and name-calling. (Hannity
is kinda cute, though.)

First, "liberal" and "conservative" are simply bullshit labels used to
distract. Is it "liberal" to object to the deliberate murder of children?
Is it "conservative" to give our most advanced weapons systems to an "ally"
that has been caught selling them to the Chinese?

Second, there is nothing I could say that would change your little
programmed mind.
Here's an idea - why don't you look into the history of Israel for yourself
and use more than one source.
Try typing "Deir Yassin" into your favorite search engine.
Or "King David Hotel".
Or "USS Liberty".
Or "Lavon Affair".

Israel was founded in terrorism and murder and those are still its favorite
tactics.
Israel is NOT our friend anymore than a tick is friend to a dog.
Don't believe me, check for yourself.

[Gus]

Post by Mysterion
First, "liberal" and "conservative" are simply bullshit labels used to
distract. Is it "liberal" to object to the deliberate murder of children?
Is it "conservative" to give our most advanced weapons systems to an "ally"
that has been caught selling them to the Chinese?
Second, there is nothing I could say that would change your little
programmed mind.
Here's an idea - why don't you look into the history of Israel for yourself
and use more than one source.
Try typing "Deir Yassin" into your favorite search engine.
Or "King David Hotel".
Or "USS Liberty".
Or "Lavon Affair".
Israel was founded in terrorism and murder and those are still its favorite
tactics.
Israel is NOT our friend anymore than a tick is friend to a dog.
Don't believe me, check for yourself.

Ok, I looked them up and thought about it with my "little programmed
mind" The newest one is about 40 years old. Your point is that Israel
has what we would call terrorism in it's past. Maybe so but today they
are still our best friend in the Middle East or maybe you'd like to
point out a better friend.
GW

[Mysterion]

Post by Gus

Post by Mysterion
First, "liberal" and "conservative" are simply bullshit labels used to
distract. Is it "liberal" to object to the deliberate murder of children?
Is it "conservative" to give our most advanced weapons systems to an "ally"
that has been caught selling them to the Chinese?
Second, there is nothing I could say that would change your little
programmed mind.
Here's an idea - why don't you look into the history of Israel for yourself
and use more than one source.
Try typing "Deir Yassin" into your favorite search engine.
Or "King David Hotel".
Or "USS Liberty".
Or "Lavon Affair".
Israel was founded in terrorism and murder and those are still its favorite
tactics.
Israel is NOT our friend anymore than a tick is friend to a dog.
Don't believe me, check for yourself.

Ok, I looked them up and thought about it with my "little programmed
mind" The newest one is about 40 years old. Your point is that Israel
has what we would call terrorism in it's past. Maybe so but today they
are still our best friend in the Middle East or maybe you'd like to
point out a better friend.

I'm beginning to think that you are quite possibly an idiot and beyond all
hope of educating.
No, Israel is NOT our friend.
They never have been.
They are parasitic murderers. And the USA is an accessory before and after
the fact because we continue to provide them with weapons and ammunition,
paid for with US tax dollars, and block all international attempts to rein
them in.
And zionist dupes like you have seen to it that we have no friends in the
Mid-east through your slavish, dog-like support of the murderers.

But you, of course, will continue to believe the propaganda on the TV and
ignore the evidence of history.
I hope you enjoy the hell your stupidity will bring to America.
You certainly seem to deserve it.

[Gus]

Post by Mysterion

Post by Gus

Post by Mysterion
First, "liberal" and "conservative" are simply bullshit labels used to
distract. Is it "liberal" to object to the deliberate murder of children?
Is it "conservative" to give our most advanced weapons systems to an "ally"
that has been caught selling them to the Chinese?
Second, there is nothing I could say that would change your little
programmed mind.
Here's an idea - why don't you look into the history of Israel for yourself
and use more than one source.
Try typing "Deir Yassin" into your favorite search engine.
Or "King David Hotel".
Or "USS Liberty".
Or "Lavon Affair".
Israel was founded in terrorism and murder and those are still its favorite
tactics.
Israel is NOT our friend anymore than a tick is friend to a dog.
Don't believe me, check for yourself.

Ok, I looked them up and thought about it with my "little programmed
mind" The newest one is about 40 years old. Your point is that Israel
has what we would call terrorism in it's past. Maybe so but today they
are still our best friend in the Middle East or maybe you'd like to
point out a better friend.

I'm beginning to think that you are quite possibly an idiot and beyond all
hope of educating.
No, Israel is NOT our friend.
They never have been.
They are parasitic murderers. And the USA is an accessory before and after
the fact because we continue to provide them with weapons and ammunition,
paid for with US tax dollars, and block all international attempts to rein
them in.
And zionist dupes like you have seen to it that we have no friends in the
Mid-east through your slavish, dog-like support of the murderers.
But you, of course, will continue to believe the propaganda on the TV and
ignore the evidence of history.
I hope you enjoy the hell your stupidity will bring to America.
You certainly seem to deserve it.

Well, there you go again.
Why waste your time on a hopelessly idiotic stupid zionist dupe like
me? Someone with an expanded mind like yours should have much better
things to do. Take care.
GW

[Hawke]

Post by Mysterion

Post by Gus

Post by Mysterion
First, "liberal" and "conservative" are simply bullshit labels used to
distract. Is it "liberal" to object to the deliberate murder of children?
Is it "conservative" to give our most advanced weapons systems to an "ally"
that has been caught selling them to the Chinese?
Second, there is nothing I could say that would change your little
programmed mind.
Here's an idea - why don't you look into the history of Israel for yourself
and use more than one source.
Try typing "Deir Yassin" into your favorite search engine.
Or "King David Hotel".
Or "USS Liberty".
Or "Lavon Affair".
Israel was founded in terrorism and murder and those are still its favorite
tactics.
Israel is NOT our friend anymore than a tick is friend to a dog.
Don't believe me, check for yourself.

Ok, I looked them up and thought about it with my "little programmed
mind" The newest one is about 40 years old. Your point is that Israel
has what we would call terrorism in it's past. Maybe so but today they
are still our best friend in the Middle East or maybe you'd like to
point out a better friend.

I'm beginning to think that you are quite possibly an idiot and beyond all
hope of educating.
No, Israel is NOT our friend.
They never have been.
They are parasitic murderers. And the USA is an accessory before and after
the fact because we continue to provide them with weapons and ammunition,
paid for with US tax dollars, and block all international attempts to rein
them in.
And zionist dupes like you have seen to it that we have no friends in the
Mid-east through your slavish, dog-like support of the murderers.
But you, of course, will continue to believe the propaganda on the TV and
ignore the evidence of history.
I hope you enjoy the hell your stupidity will bring to America.
You certainly seem to deserve it.

First of all you don't know what you are talking about. The Arabs have been
attacking the Israelis almost continually for going on 60 years. If they
would just leave the Jews alone the violence in the area would be gone
overnight. But they just keep at it without letup. As far as I'm concerned
they are getting what they deserve.

Besides that the Arabs are just darn lucky they are dealing with the
Israelis instead of us. I guarantee if we were the Israelis we would have
destroyed the Arabs once and for all a long time ago. We would have carpet
bombed them with B52s until there wasn't an Arab within a hundred miles of
our border. The Arabs should consider themselves lucky they are dealing with
a people as decent as the Jews are. If they did to us what they have done to
the Israelis they wouldn't exist anymore. They're just darn lucky the
Israelis are so nice. We wouldn't be so understanding and kind as they are.

Hawke

[Day Brown]

Post by Hawke
Besides that the Arabs are just darn lucky they are dealing with the
Israelis instead of us. I guarantee if we were the Israelis we would have
destroyed the Arabs once and for all a long time ago. We would have carpet
bombed them with B52s until there wasn't an Arab within a hundred miles of
our border. The Arabs should consider themselves lucky they are dealing with
a people as decent as the Jews are. If they did to us what they have done to
the Israelis they wouldn't exist anymore. They're just darn lucky the
Israelis are so nice. We wouldn't be so understanding and kind as they are.

Well put. If the missiles were coming over the border and landing in San
Diego, we'd be bombing the schitt out of Mexico. And while nobody talks
about it, we all know that the central government dont have control of a
region run by druglords. Has everyone forgotten Lebanese hash?

I agree that the Jews could handle this more adroitly, but dont blame
them for sending the same message Gen Sherman sent to Georgia.

[Mysterion]

Post by Hawke

Post by Mysterion

Post by Gus

Post by Mysterion
First, "liberal" and "conservative" are simply bullshit labels used to
distract. Is it "liberal" to object to the deliberate murder of children?
Is it "conservative" to give our most advanced weapons systems to an "ally"
that has been caught selling them to the Chinese?
Second, there is nothing I could say that would change your little
programmed mind.
Here's an idea - why don't you look into the history of Israel for yourself
and use more than one source.
Try typing "Deir Yassin" into your favorite search engine.
Or "King David Hotel".
Or "USS Liberty".
Or "Lavon Affair".
Israel was founded in terrorism and murder and those are still its favorite
tactics.
Israel is NOT our friend anymore than a tick is friend to a dog.
Don't believe me, check for yourself.

Ok, I looked them up and thought about it with my "little programmed
mind" The newest one is about 40 years old. Your point is that Israel
has what we would call terrorism in it's past. Maybe so but today they
are still our best friend in the Middle East or maybe you'd like to
point out a better friend.

I'm beginning to think that you are quite possibly an idiot and beyond all
hope of educating.
No, Israel is NOT our friend.
They never have been.
They are parasitic murderers. And the USA is an accessory before and

after

Post by Mysterion
the fact because we continue to provide them with weapons and ammunition,
paid for with US tax dollars, and block all international attempts to rein
them in.
And zionist dupes like you have seen to it that we have no friends in the
Mid-east through your slavish, dog-like support of the murderers.
But you, of course, will continue to believe the propaganda on the TV and
ignore the evidence of history.
I hope you enjoy the hell your stupidity will bring to America.
You certainly seem to deserve it.

First of all you don't know what you are talking about. The Arabs have been
attacking the Israelis almost continually for going on 60 years. If they
would just leave the Jews alone the violence in the area would be gone
overnight. But they just keep at it without letup. As far as I'm concerned
they are getting what they deserve.
Besides that the Arabs are just darn lucky they are dealing with the
Israelis instead of us. I guarantee if we were the Israelis we would have
destroyed the Arabs once and for all a long time ago. We would have carpet
bombed them with B52s until there wasn't an Arab within a hundred miles of
our border. The Arabs should consider themselves lucky they are dealing with
a people as decent as the Jews are. If they did to us what they have done to
the Israelis they wouldn't exist anymore. They're just darn lucky the
Israelis are so nice. We wouldn't be so understanding and kind as they are.

First of all, you're a fucking idiot who believes the bullshit that the
zionists spew.

And if the "we" you keep referring to is "Americans", don't include me, or
any of the other sane Americans, in your stupid bloodthirsty chest-pounding
bullshit.
You're a damned disgrace to this country, its founders and its Constitution.

Like "Gus", you're a waste of my time.
Now fuck off and die in pain, little kisser of jew ass.

[S***@flashlight.net]

Post by Hawke

Post by Mysterion

Post by Gus

Post by Mysterion
First, "liberal" and "conservative" are simply bullshit labels used to
distract. Is it "liberal" to object to the deliberate murder of children?
Is it "conservative" to give our most advanced weapons systems to an "ally"
that has been caught selling them to the Chinese?
Second, there is nothing I could say that would change your little
programmed mind.
Here's an idea - why don't you look into the history of Israel for yourself
and use more than one source.
Try typing "Deir Yassin" into your favorite search engine.
Or "King David Hotel".
Or "USS Liberty".
Or "Lavon Affair".
Israel was founded in terrorism and murder and those are still its favorite
tactics.
Israel is NOT our friend anymore than a tick is friend to a dog.
Don't believe me, check for yourself.

Ok, I looked them up and thought about it with my "little programmed
mind" The newest one is about 40 years old. Your point is that Israel
has what we would call terrorism in it's past. Maybe so but today they
are still our best friend in the Middle East or maybe you'd like to
point out a better friend.

I'm beginning to think that you are quite possibly an idiot and beyond all
hope of educating.
No, Israel is NOT our friend.
They never have been.
They are parasitic murderers. And the USA is an accessory before and

after

Post by Mysterion
the fact because we continue to provide them with weapons and ammunition,
paid for with US tax dollars, and block all international attempts to rein
them in.
And zionist dupes like you have seen to it that we have no friends in the
Mid-east through your slavish, dog-like support of the murderers.
But you, of course, will continue to believe the propaganda on the TV and
ignore the evidence of history.
I hope you enjoy the hell your stupidity will bring to America.
You certainly seem to deserve it.

First of all you don't know what you are talking about. The Arabs have been
attacking the Israelis almost continually for going on 60 years. If they
would just leave the Jews alone the violence in the area would be gone
overnight. But they just keep at it without letup. As far as I'm concerned
they are getting what they deserve.

That's what certain people want you to think. There's more to
it than that.

The 600,000 Arabs (Muslims and Christians) and the Jews who
inhabited the Palestine in 1947 have the initial claim. It was their
land that was stolen by European Jews under false pretenses.

That has to be resolved.

Long before the state of Israel was formed, plans were made
by a group of Jews, self-called, Zionists, that called for a Jewish
state that would encompass most of the then land of Arabia.
This would eliminate most all Arab lands.

The Arabs, having been screwed by the British for years, were
naturally concerned. After WWII Britain agreed to allow some European
Jews to settle in Palestine. The British agreement did not agree to a
"state of Israel" as the Zionists wanted, but rather to allow some
displaced European Jews to settle among the existing inhabitants in
Palestine.

That is not the way it went down.

TSHTF in 1948 when these *settlers* landed as an army and began
systematically coercing sales of land (a phoney pitch) and when
refused, the property owners were driven off at gunpoint. Those that
resisted were killed. It was then announced that the invaders planned
to set up a Jewish state within which non-Jews were not welcome.

The conflict escalated into a war which the Arabs were not prepared
to fight, so they lost people and land. This and other grievances
are what led to the 6 Day War.

It seems that the Zionists, known also in those days known as
terrorists, had secretly planned to fool the British into an agreement
which the Zionists didn't intend to keep. Instead, through bombings,
assassinations and personal threats, they forced key leaders In
Britain and the US to join them in a nefarious plot.

Since WWII, the Zionists and their alter egos, the JDL and ADL, worked
with the now well known Israeli lobby, to stifle criticism,
propagate a public relations campaign to put a Americans on a
guilt trip, and to threaten and bribe American politicans to support
Israel in all ways. This was so successful that today it is
impossible to find a politician critical of any aspect of America's
support.

The recent "war on terror" is a plan concocted in 1996 by Zionists
and their hybrid political arm, the Neocons, to take make the final
push to take over the Middle East. 9/11 was the catalyst.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqmiddleeast.htm

So the Middle East is not a cut and dried issue of the Arabs
picking on the Jews. In fact, the Jews and Arabs were not
at odds until 1948. As the Arabs have not benefitted from the
events of 9/11, it remains to be seen who was actually behind
this plot.

Post by Hawke
Besides that the Arabs are just darn lucky they are dealing with the
Israelis instead of us. I guarantee if we were the Israelis we would have
destroyed the Arabs once and for all a long time ago. We would have carpet
bombed them with B52s until there wasn't an Arab within a hundred miles of
our border. The Arabs should consider themselves lucky they are dealing with
a people as decent as the Jews are. If they did to us what they have done to
the Israelis they wouldn't exist anymore. They're just darn lucky the
Israelis are so nice. We wouldn't be so understanding and kind as they are.

The US supplies Israel with munitions, technology, intelligence and
billions of dollars each year. Israel is not only dependent on the
US, it is now acting as a puppet of American Neocons. Whatever the
current excuse for this war, the Neocons and Zionists are attacking
the Middle East.

Post by Hawke
Hawke

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[John]

Post by Gus

Post by Mysterion
Yet another shill for Israel is heard from.
Hannity would give you a kiss.

When you don't have an adequate reasoned response, go ahead and use the
standard Liberal tactic of personal attack and name-calling. (Hannity
is kinda cute, though.)
GW

Are you calling gunner a liberal?


John

[Gunner]

Post by Gus

Post by Mysterion
Yet another shill for Israel is heard from.
Hannity would give you a kiss.

When you don't have an adequate reasoned response, go ahead and use the
standard Liberal tactic of personal attack and name-calling. (Hannity
is kinda cute, though.)
GW

Mystery Meat is not a liberal, unfortunately. He is a white
supremacist and neo-nazi. He is a shill for the Aryan Brotherhood.

He was a Klanner before going to prison for raping and sodomizing a 5
yr old black girl. In prison, he became an AB member (as well as the
bitch of the leader of the AB pod)

Pay him no attention. His parole officer is aware of his activities
and will likely violate him

Gunner



"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're
around."

"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right
before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001

[Cliff]

Post by Gunner
Mystery Meat is not a liberal, unfortunately. He is a white
supremacist and neo-nazi. He is a shill for the Aryan Brotherhood.
He was a Klanner before going to prison for raping and sodomizing a 5
yr old black girl. In prison, he became an AB member (as well as the
bitch of the leader of the AB pod)
Pay him no attention. His parole officer is aware of his activities
and will likely violate him

Famous Republican saying: "Everything is fine in politics as long as you
don't get caught in bed with a live man, or a dead woman.”

HTH

[Mysterion]

Post by Gunner

Post by Gus

Post by Mysterion
Yet another shill for Israel is heard from.
Hannity would give you a kiss.

When you don't have an adequate reasoned response, go ahead and use the
standard Liberal tactic of personal attack and name-calling. (Hannity
is kinda cute, though.)
GW

Mystery Meat is not a liberal, unfortunately. He is a white
supremacist and neo-nazi. He is a shill for the Aryan Brotherhood.

You're a lying sack of shit.

Post by Gunner
He was a Klanner before going to prison for raping and sodomizing a 5
yr old black girl. In prison, he became an AB member (as well as the
bitch of the leader of the AB pod)

Sorry, little shitstain, but I've never even been arrested. Just a couple of
traffic tickets.
The only rapist here is YOU, Goofer.
Or did you think no one knew about those little Vietnamese boys and girls?

Post by Gunner
Pay him no attention. His parole officer is aware of his activities
and will likely violate him

Scum like you would be happy to murder or imprison anyone who says things
you don't like.
Next time you get to thinking you might be a man instead of a gutless sucker
of jew cocks, feel free to come to Pennsylvania and throw down, you pathetic
facist faggot.
Of course, being the slimy coward you are, you'd probably go after my family
rather than me.
That's okay since even my daughter is more of a man than you'll ever be and
it would be more fitting for my wife or kids to remove a piece of filth like
you from the ecosystem than for me to stain a blade or waste a bullet on
garbage.

[Gus]

Post by Mysterion
Scum like you would be happy to murder or imprison anyone who says things
you don't like.
Next time you get to thinking you might be a man instead of a gutless sucker
of jew cocks, feel free to come to Pennsylvania and throw down, you pathetic
facist faggot.
Of course, being the slimy coward you are, you'd probably go after my family
rather than me.
That's okay since even my daughter is more of a man than you'll ever be and
it would be more fitting for my wife or kids to remove a piece of filth like
you from the ecosystem than for me to stain a blade or waste a bullet on
garbage.

They're coming to take me away, HA HA
They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA
To the funny farm
Where life is beautiful all the time
And I'll be happy to see
Those nice, young men
In their clean, white coats
And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!

[Cliff]

Post by Gus
They're coming to take me away, HA HA

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000G9XWHS/sr=8-3/qid=1154670751/ref=sr_1_3/104-5474146-4025547?ie=UTF8

[S***@flashlight.net]

Post by Gus

Post by Cliff

Post by Gus

Post by Tim Smith
Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked
every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush
has told the UN "NO." Bush has told the European Union "NO." Bush has
told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister "NO." Twice.

<snipped mumbo jumbo>
Lebanese civillians are in the crossfire which is a shame but Israeli
civillians are the "targets" of terrorists. I don't hear you having any
sympathy for them.

Israel's been bombing many for decades & taking hostages
as well as much else that the UN has very strongly frowned on.
Now somebody did some neocon-style-approved rendition and
they started bombing Lebanon ... FIRST.
--
Cliff

For 50 years Israel's neighbors have been attacking them.

I think you missed the part about Israelis stealing other people's
land in 1948 as being the reason for the conflict.

Post by Gus
I guess the
difference I see is that Israel targets terrorists while terrorists
target innocent civillians. Israel might shoot a missile at some
terrorists in a car but the terrorists like to climb aboard city busses
and blow everyone up. I see a big difference, can't you?

Yeah, a big difference between blowing up a car of people vs a bus of
people.

A difference of no distinction.

Post by Gus
GW

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[Day Brown]

Post by S***@flashlight.net
I think you missed the part about Israelis stealing other people's
land in 1948 as being the reason for the conflict.

Scuze me? Just who do you think they stole the land from? Did the
"Palestinians" really own it? Seems like it was in the hands of the
Brits, who had it as part of the spoils of war from the Ottomans, who
stole it from the Sultan, who stole it from the Byzantines, who stole it
from the Romans, who stole it from.... the Jews.

Who are back.

[Protagonist]

Post by Day Brown

Post by S***@flashlight.net
I think you missed the part about Israelis stealing other people's
land in 1948 as being the reason for the conflict.

Scuze me? Just who do you think they stole the land from? Did the
"Palestinians" really own it? Seems like it was in the hands of the
Brits, who had it as part of the spoils of war from the Ottomans, who
stole it from the Sultan, who stole it from the Byzantines, who stole it
from the Romans, who stole it from.... the Jews.
Who are back.

If every tribe on this earth would start claiming back to 3000 years
what they owned, WW3 can start!
JS

[Cliff]

Post by Day Brown

Post by S***@flashlight.net
I think you missed the part about Israelis stealing other people's
land in 1948 as being the reason for the conflict.

Scuze me? Just who do you think they stole the land from? Did the
"Palestinians" really own it?

Who farmed the land & lived in the homes?

[m***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by Cliff

Post by Day Brown

Post by S***@flashlight.net
I think you missed the part about Israelis stealing other people's
land in 1948 as being the reason for the conflict.

Scuze me? Just who do you think they stole the land from? Did the
"Palestinians" really own it?

Who farmed the land & lived in the homes?

Muslims, Jews, Christians, Coptics, and others, all of various ethnic
derivation. There was no self identity as "palestinian".

Post by Cliff
--
Cliff

[Cliff]

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff

Post by Day Brown

Post by S***@flashlight.net
I think you missed the part about Israelis stealing other people's
land in 1948 as being the reason for the conflict.

Scuze me? Just who do you think they stole the land from? Did the
"Palestinians" really own it?

Who farmed the land & lived in the homes?

Muslims, Jews, Christians, Coptics, and others, all of various ethnic
derivation. There was no self identity as "palestinian".

There is now that they were run off their land (stolen) & out of their
(stolen) homes & businesses ...

[m***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff

Post by Day Brown

Post by S***@flashlight.net
I think you missed the part about Israelis stealing other people's
land in 1948 as being the reason for the conflict.

Scuze me? Just who do you think they stole the land from? Did the
"Palestinians" really own it?

Who farmed the land & lived in the homes?

Muslims, Jews, Christians, Coptics, and others, all of various ethnic
derivation. There was no self identity as "palestinian".

There is now that they were run off their land (stolen) & out of their
(stolen) homes & businesses ...

Funny thing, that.
The United Nations created the modern state of Israel out of area in
which jewish folk were living alongside arabs. The world powers decided
that, with the withdrawal of Britain and in view of the holocaust of
WWII Germany, it was a good and decent thing to allow the reformation
of a jewish homeland.
The land was not stolen from anyone.
The entire area, including modern Syria, Iraq, Iran, Palestine,
Jordan, Egypt... all had been a part of the Ottoman empire. In 1919,
Palestine and other areas were taken under protection by the British;
there was no state called "Palestine", and Syria and Iraq both were
created after the 1919 Versailles treaty.
So, the area in question belonged by treaty to Britain, not any
"palestinian state".
Britain withdrew from the protectorate after WWII and in the process
aided the UN in creating a homeland for the jews who had been sorely
mistreated.

So now, as you point out for some reason, after the fact, after decades
of benefiting from Israeli rule (where they choose to) and trying to
destroy the very country that has tried to be fair and open with them,
these Arab muslims pick up the notion that the land was "Palestine"
and that they are "Palestinians"; a claim that has no basis in
historical fact, but is the name of a nation that they would create
were they successful in "stealing" Israel from the non-Arab, non-muslim
Israelis.

Were these folk content to live in peace with their neighbors, they
could do so as Israelis, right alongside all the other Israelis of
various ethnic and religious identity. But they don't.
Instead, the overarching muslim creed which insists that the jews MUST
be destroyed and that ALL others must submit and/or convert or DIE is
what they bring to the table.
Slavery, submission, death, destruction, and the imposition of
sharia law is their goal, over every person in every place, but
particularly and primarily, Israel.

Perhaps you'd like to return YOUR land to the folk it was stolen from,
eh Cliff?
Why not talk about that, and see where that logic takes you?

Regards,
mark evins

Post by Cliff
--
Cliff

[Cliff]

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff

Post by Day Brown

Post by S***@flashlight.net
I think you missed the part about Israelis stealing other people's
land in 1948 as being the reason for the conflict.

Scuze me? Just who do you think they stole the land from? Did the
"Palestinians" really own it?

Who farmed the land & lived in the homes?

Muslims, Jews, Christians, Coptics, and others, all of various ethnic
derivation. There was no self identity as "palestinian".

There is now that they were run off their land (stolen) & out of their
(stolen) homes & businesses ...

Funny thing, that.
The United Nations created the modern state of Israel

Whichin retrospect may not have been such a great idea.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
out of area in
which jewish folk were living alongside arabs.

And had been doing so for thousands of years, much of it in peace.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
The world powers decided
that, with the withdrawal of Britain and in view of the holocaust of
WWII Germany, it was a good and decent thing to allow the reformation
of a jewish homeland.

Looks like they missed a few things.
People already lived there for one.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
The land was not stolen from anyone.

DANG!! Nobody lived there? WHY?

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
The entire area, including modern Syria, Iraq, Iran, Palestine,
Jordan, Egypt... all had been a part of the Ottoman empire. In 1919,
Palestine and other areas were taken under protection by the British;
there was no state called "Palestine", and Syria and Iraq both were
created after the 1919 Versailles treaty.

Who moved in, booted out the natives & imposed a religion?

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
So, the area in question belonged by treaty to Britain, not any
"palestinian state".

I suppose none of the dumb natives objected to the spoils of war.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Britain withdrew from the protectorate after WWII and in the process
aided the UN in creating a homeland for the jews who had been sorely
mistreated.

And everyone else that was already there went where?
Refugee camps? Relocation camps? Prison camps? Jails?

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
So now, as you point out for some reason, after the fact, after decades
of benefiting from Israeli rule

By having their land, homes & businesses stolen .. and living in
luxury camps .. and following the laws of an imposed religion ...

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
(where they choose to)

Sort of like speaking if tortured enough in Cuba?

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
and trying to
destroy the very country that has tried to be fair and open with them,

They paid for it fair & square, right?

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
these Arab muslims pick up the notion that the land was "Palestine"
and that they are "Palestinians";

What else do you want them to be? Jews?

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
a claim that has no basis in
historical fact,

[
The term Palestine is derived from the name of the Philistines, a people of
uncertain origins, possibly Aegean, who, in the 12th century BCE, settled along
the southern Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel and the Gaza
Strip ..
]
[
In historical contexts, especially predating the establishment of the State of
Israel, Palestine was mostly a geographical term, particularly used in Greek,
Latin, Arabic, and other languages taking their geographical vocabulary from
them; it comprised the Roman sub-province of Syria Palaestina, roughly
equivalent to ancient Canaan (including the Biblical kingdoms of Israel, Judah,
Moab, Ammon, and Philistia) and thus included much of the land on either side of
the Jordan River although with further political sub-divisions along the River
Jordan valley
]
[
Under UNRWA's operational definition, Palestine refugees are persons whose
normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, ..
]

Looks like some history there to me.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
but is the name of a nation that they would create
were they successful in "stealing" Israel from the non-Arab, non-muslim
Israelis.

And the UN said what? Oops ..... wingers don't like the UN any more
than Israel does ....

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Were these folk content to live in peace with their neighbors, they
could do so as Israelis, right alongside all the other Israelis of
various ethnic and religious identity.

You mean just as they were before?

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
But they don't.
Instead, the overarching muslim creed which insists that the jews MUST
be destroyed and that ALL others must submit and/or convert or DIE is
what they bring to the table.

BS. HTH.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Slavery, submission, death, destruction,

All from the bible. right?

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
and the imposition of
sharia law is their goal,

Actually, only one sect uses that much.
Are they Southern Baptists?

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
over every person in every place, but
particularly and primarily, Israel.
Perhaps you'd like to return YOUR land to the folk it was stolen from,
eh Cliff?
Why not talk about that, and see where that logic takes you?
Regards,
mark evins

HTH

[m***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff

Post by Day Brown

Post by S***@flashlight.net
I think you missed the part about Israelis stealing other people's
land in 1948 as being the reason for the conflict.

Scuze me? Just who do you think they stole the land from? Did the
"Palestinians" really own it?

Who farmed the land & lived in the homes?

Muslims, Jews, Christians, Coptics, and others, all of various ethnic
derivation. There was no self identity as "palestinian".

There is now that they were run off their land (stolen) & out of their
(stolen) homes & businesses ...

Funny thing, that.
The United Nations created the modern state of Israel

Whichin retrospect may not have been such a great idea.

In retrospect, it might not have been a good idea to let any of the
people of the area have their own countries; Syria, Jordan, Lebanon,
Egypt, Iraq.....

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
out of area in
which jewish folk were living alongside arabs.

And had been doing so for thousands of years, much of it in peace.

So long as they abided by Islamic law, which is terribly oppressive to
everyone, or so long as the Islamics didn't come knocking at the
border...

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
The world powers decided
that, with the withdrawal of Britain and in view of the holocaust of
WWII Germany, it was a good and decent thing to allow the reformation
of a jewish homeland.

Looks like they missed a few things.
People already lived there for one.

Um hmm. Still did after the fact, too.
Know what? Many still do.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
The land was not stolen from anyone.

DANG!! Nobody lived there? WHY?

Those that lived there continued to live there.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
The entire area, including modern Syria, Iraq, Iran, Palestine,
Jordan, Egypt... all had been a part of the Ottoman empire. In 1919,
Palestine and other areas were taken under protection by the British;
there was no state called "Palestine", and Syria and Iraq both were
created after the 1919 Versailles treaty.

Who moved in, booted out the natives & imposed a religion?

Nope.
They did get to have new dictators, tho.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
So, the area in question belonged by treaty to Britain, not any
"palestinian state".

I suppose none of the dumb natives objected to the spoils of war.

Nope. They aided the Brits and Allied forces during WWI so that they
could throw off the oppression of the Ottomans. That was the deal, and
they got it.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Britain withdrew from the protectorate after WWII and in the process
aided the UN in creating a homeland for the jews who had been sorely
mistreated.

And everyone else that was already there went where?
Refugee camps? Relocation camps? Prison camps? Jails?

Nope. They didn't go anywhere. They stayed, lived, worked.
Then, of course, there was the war of aggression from the various Arab
states that tried to wipe out Israel.
They failed.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
So now, as you point out for some reason, after the fact, after decades
of benefiting from Israeli rule

By having their land, homes & businesses stolen .. and living in
luxury camps .. and following the laws of an imposed religion ...

Nope. If they choose to, they can live as citizens of Israel. The
temple mount is still administered by Arab muslims, and freedom of
religion is practiced....
By the Israelis, not the muslims.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
(where they choose to)

Sort of like speaking if tortured enough in Cuba?

No, more like being peaceful citizens of their country as opposed to
being terrorists who want to kill everyone that isn't muslim.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
and trying to
destroy the very country that has tried to be fair and open with them,

They paid for it fair & square, right?

Yup.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
these Arab muslims pick up the notion that the land was "Palestine"
and that they are "Palestinians";

What else do you want them to be? Jews?

Are you suggesting that "Jew" is a nationality? Or an ethnic group?
The "Jews" have as much a claim to the title "Palestinian" as the arabs
that have lived there do.More so, because their ancestors lived there
"first".

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
a claim that has no basis in
historical fact,

[
The term Palestine is derived from the name of the Philistines, a people of
uncertain origins, possibly Aegean, who, in the 12th century BCE, settled along
the southern Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel and the Gaza
Strip ..
]
[
In historical contexts, especially predating the establishment of the State of
Israel, Palestine was mostly a geographical term, particularly used in Greek,
Latin, Arabic, and other languages taking their geographical vocabulary from
them; it comprised the Roman sub-province of Syria Palaestina, roughly
equivalent to ancient Canaan (including the Biblical kingdoms of Israel, Judah,
Moab, Ammon, and Philistia) and thus included much of the land on either side of
the Jordan River although with further political sub-divisions along the River
Jordan valley
]
[
Under UNRWA's operational definition, Palestine refugees are persons whose
normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, ..
]
Looks like some history there to me.

No, that is a definition of term in modern usage by a specific group,
that group being UNRWA.
A different definition is used by current arabs who claim to be
palestinian, but who DID NOT live in the area between June of '46 and
May of '48.
Unless you suggest that all those 20-something arab suicide bombers are
actually 60 year olds.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
but is the name of a nation that they would create
were they successful in "stealing" Israel from the non-Arab, non-muslim
Israelis.

And the UN said what? Oops ..... wingers don't like the UN any more
than Israel does ....

The UN says lots of things. It said that Israel should be there, has a
right to exist and imposed sanctions on those who attack it.
If you're a lefty, and support the UN, then do so.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Were these folk content to live in peace with their neighbors, they
could do so as Israelis, right alongside all the other Israelis of
various ethnic and religious identity.

You mean just as they were before?

Before opting for terrorism? Sure. Peaceful citizens of a productive
country.
Got a problem with that?

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
But they don't.
Instead, the overarching muslim creed which insists that the jews MUST
be destroyed and that ALL others must submit and/or convert or DIE is
what they bring to the table.

BS. HTH.

Oh? Check history.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Slavery, submission, death, destruction,

All from the bible. right?

Nope. From the Q'ran.
You do know that muslims still practice slavery, right?
You do know that it's common practice to mutilate their women, right?
You do realize that non-muslims get jailed or killed for spreading the
word about their religion in muslim lands, right?

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
and the imposition of
sharia law is their goal,

Actually, only one sect uses that much.
Are they Southern Baptists?

Funny.
They are the sect that has control of Iran, wants control of Iraq and
had control of Afghanistan.
But the tenents of sharia law are common to all of Islam, as are the
goals of the culture.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
over every person in every place, but
particularly and primarily, Israel.
Perhaps you'd like to return YOUR land to the folk it was stolen from,
eh Cliff?
Why not talk about that, and see where that logic takes you?
Regards,
mark evins

HTH

Why won't you address the question of giving your land back to those it
was stolen from, Cliff?
Since you seem to want others to do so, why don't you lead the way and
show us how it's done??

Post by Cliff
Cliff

[Gus]

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff

Post by Day Brown

Post by S***@flashlight.net
I think you missed the part about Israelis stealing other people's
land in 1948 as being the reason for the conflict.

Scuze me? Just who do you think they stole the land from? Did the
"Palestinians" really own it?

Who farmed the land & lived in the homes?

Muslims, Jews, Christians, Coptics, and others, all of various ethnic
derivation. There was no self identity as "palestinian".

There is now that they were run off their land (stolen) & out of their
(stolen) homes & businesses ...

Funny thing, that.
The United Nations created the modern state of Israel

Whichin retrospect may not have been such a great idea.

In retrospect, it might not have been a good idea to let any of the
people of the area have their own countries; Syria, Jordan, Lebanon,
Egypt, Iraq.....

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
out of area in
which jewish folk were living alongside arabs.

And had been doing so for thousands of years, much of it in peace.

So long as they abided by Islamic law, which is terribly oppressive to
everyone, or so long as the Islamics didn't come knocking at the
border...

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
The world powers decided
that, with the withdrawal of Britain and in view of the holocaust of
WWII Germany, it was a good and decent thing to allow the reformation
of a jewish homeland.

Looks like they missed a few things.
People already lived there for one.

Um hmm. Still did after the fact, too.
Know what? Many still do.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
The land was not stolen from anyone.

DANG!! Nobody lived there? WHY?

Those that lived there continued to live there.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
The entire area, including modern Syria, Iraq, Iran, Palestine,
Jordan, Egypt... all had been a part of the Ottoman empire. In 1919,
Palestine and other areas were taken under protection by the British;
there was no state called "Palestine", and Syria and Iraq both were
created after the 1919 Versailles treaty.

Who moved in, booted out the natives & imposed a religion?

Nope.
They did get to have new dictators, tho.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
So, the area in question belonged by treaty to Britain, not any
"palestinian state".

I suppose none of the dumb natives objected to the spoils of war.

Nope. They aided the Brits and Allied forces during WWI so that they
could throw off the oppression of the Ottomans. That was the deal, and
they got it.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Britain withdrew from the protectorate after WWII and in the process
aided the UN in creating a homeland for the jews who had been sorely
mistreated.

And everyone else that was already there went where?
Refugee camps? Relocation camps? Prison camps? Jails?

Nope. They didn't go anywhere. They stayed, lived, worked.
Then, of course, there was the war of aggression from the various Arab
states that tried to wipe out Israel.
They failed.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
So now, as you point out for some reason, after the fact, after decades
of benefiting from Israeli rule

By having their land, homes & businesses stolen .. and living in
luxury camps .. and following the laws of an imposed religion ...

Nope. If they choose to, they can live as citizens of Israel. The
temple mount is still administered by Arab muslims, and freedom of
religion is practiced....
By the Israelis, not the muslims.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
(where they choose to)

Sort of like speaking if tortured enough in Cuba?

No, more like being peaceful citizens of their country as opposed to
being terrorists who want to kill everyone that isn't muslim.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
and trying to
destroy the very country that has tried to be fair and open with them,

They paid for it fair & square, right?

Yup.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
these Arab muslims pick up the notion that the land was "Palestine"
and that they are "Palestinians";

What else do you want them to be? Jews?

Are you suggesting that "Jew" is a nationality? Or an ethnic group?
The "Jews" have as much a claim to the title "Palestinian" as the arabs
that have lived there do.More so, because their ancestors lived there
"first".

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
a claim that has no basis in
historical fact,

[
The term Palestine is derived from the name of the Philistines, a people of
uncertain origins, possibly Aegean, who, in the 12th century BCE, settled along
the southern Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel and the Gaza
Strip ..
]
[
In historical contexts, especially predating the establishment of the State of
Israel, Palestine was mostly a geographical term, particularly used in Greek,
Latin, Arabic, and other languages taking their geographical vocabulary from
them; it comprised the Roman sub-province of Syria Palaestina, roughly
equivalent to ancient Canaan (including the Biblical kingdoms of Israel, Judah,
Moab, Ammon, and Philistia) and thus included much of the land on either side of
the Jordan River although with further political sub-divisions along the River
Jordan valley
]
[
Under UNRWA's operational definition, Palestine refugees are persons whose
normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, ..
]
Looks like some history there to me.

No, that is a definition of term in modern usage by a specific group,
that group being UNRWA.
A different definition is used by current arabs who claim to be
palestinian, but who DID NOT live in the area between June of '46 and
May of '48.
Unless you suggest that all those 20-something arab suicide bombers are
actually 60 year olds.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
but is the name of a nation that they would create
were they successful in "stealing" Israel from the non-Arab, non-muslim
Israelis.

And the UN said what? Oops ..... wingers don't like the UN any more
than Israel does ....

The UN says lots of things. It said that Israel should be there, has a
right to exist and imposed sanctions on those who attack it.
If you're a lefty, and support the UN, then do so.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Were these folk content to live in peace with their neighbors, they
could do so as Israelis, right alongside all the other Israelis of
various ethnic and religious identity.

You mean just as they were before?

Before opting for terrorism? Sure. Peaceful citizens of a productive
country.
Got a problem with that?

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
But they don't.
Instead, the overarching muslim creed which insists that the jews MUST
be destroyed and that ALL others must submit and/or convert or DIE is
what they bring to the table.

BS. HTH.

Oh? Check history.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Slavery, submission, death, destruction,

All from the bible. right?

Nope. From the Q'ran.
You do know that muslims still practice slavery, right?
You do know that it's common practice to mutilate their women, right?
You do realize that non-muslims get jailed or killed for spreading the
word about their religion in muslim lands, right?

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
and the imposition of
sharia law is their goal,

Actually, only one sect uses that much.
Are they Southern Baptists?

Funny.
They are the sect that has control of Iran, wants control of Iraq and
had control of Afghanistan.
But the tenents of sharia law are common to all of Islam, as are the
goals of the culture.

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
over every person in every place, but
particularly and primarily, Israel.
Perhaps you'd like to return YOUR land to the folk it was stolen from,
eh Cliff?
Why not talk about that, and see where that logic takes you?
Regards,
mark evins

HTH

Why won't you address the question of giving your land back to those it
was stolen from, Cliff?
Since you seem to want others to do so, why don't you lead the way and
show us how it's done??

Post by Cliff
Cliff

Score:
Mark - 10
Cliff - 0

[Cliff]

Post by Gus
Mark - 10

How can he afford to lose so much?

[Cliff]

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
You do know that muslims still practice slavery, right?

Republicans & wingers might consider converting as they miss it so
then.

Famous Republican saying: "Everything is fine in politics as long as you
don't get caught in bed with a live man, or a dead woman.”

[m***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
You do know that muslims still practice slavery, right?

Republicans & wingers might consider converting as they miss it so
then.

Hmmmm....
They do? Curious....
Glad I'm not a republican or a winger, then.

Post by Cliff
Famous Republican saying: "Everything is fine in politics as long as you
don't get caught in bed with a live man, or a dead woman."
--
Cliff

[Gunner]

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
You do know that muslims still practice slavery, right?

Republicans & wingers might consider converting as they miss it so
then.

Hmmmm....
They do? Curious....
Glad I'm not a republican or a winger, then.

Post by Cliff
Famous Republican saying: "Everything is fine in politics as long as you
don't get caught in bed with a live man, or a dead woman."
--
Cliff

Sadly enough..the fucktard always forgets it was the Republicans who
ended slavery and foughth for full civil rights, while it was the
Democrats who were the slave owners and resisted civil rights

Gunner



"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're
around."

"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right
before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001

[Stuart Wheaton]

Post by Gunner
Sadly enough..the fucktard always forgets it was the Republicans who
ended slavery and foughth for full civil rights, while it was the
Democrats who were the slave owners and resisted civil rights

Yep, those good 'ole democrats like Strom Thurmond, Jesse Helms, and
Phil Graham. Solid Democrats all, fit in so well with the northern,
anti-slavery and pro-integration members of the party.

Maybe Strom and Jesse voted for the voting rights act before they voted
against it?

[Cliff]

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff
Actually, only one sect uses that much.
Are they Southern Baptists?

Funny.
They are the sect that has control of Iran, wants control of Iraq

But Saddam kept the peace.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
and had control of Afghanistan.

Supported by the US.

Found those "WMDs" yet?

[Gus]

Post by Cliff
Found those "WMDs" yet?

Is there an echo?

[m***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff
Actually, only one sect uses that much.
Are they Southern Baptists?

Funny.
They are the sect that has control of Iran, wants control of Iraq

But Saddam kept the peace.

Um..... what about all those terrorist bombings and rocket attacks over
the lest few decades?
I don't think Saddam kept the peace very well in Israel.

Oh! Wait! That's a non-sequitur!

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
and had control of Afghanistan.

Supported by the US.

And Iran was aided by Israel during the Iran- Iraq war... what has that
to do with "now"?

Post by Cliff
Found those "WMDs" yet?

Someone in Lebanon has WMDs?

Post by Cliff
--
Cliff

[S***@flashlight.net]

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

Post by Cliff

Post by Day Brown

Post by S***@flashlight.net
I think you missed the part about Israelis stealing other people's
land in 1948 as being the reason for the conflict.

Scuze me? Just who do you think they stole the land from? Did the
"Palestinians" really own it?

Who farmed the land & lived in the homes?

Muslims, Jews, Christians, Coptics, and others, all of various ethnic
derivation. There was no self identity as "palestinian".

There is now that they were run off their land (stolen) & out of their
(stolen) homes & businesses ...

Funny thing, that.
The United Nations created the modern state of Israel out of area in
which jewish folk were living alongside arabs. The world powers decided
that, with the withdrawal of Britain and in view of the holocaust of
WWII Germany, it was a good and decent thing to allow the reformation
of a jewish homeland.
The land was not stolen from anyone.
The entire area, including modern Syria, Iraq, Iran, Palestine,
Jordan, Egypt... all had been a part of the Ottoman empire. In 1919,
Palestine and other areas were taken under protection by the British;
there was no state called "Palestine", and Syria and Iraq both were
created after the 1919 Versailles treaty.
So, the area in question belonged by treaty to Britain, not any
"palestinian state".
Britain withdrew from the protectorate after WWII and in the process
aided the UN in creating a homeland for the jews who had been sorely
mistreated.

That's not the way it happened. You missed a few bombings and
assassinations.

But even if it were it was not the UN's, or Britain's, to give away.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
So now, as you point out for some reason, after the fact, after decades
of benefiting from Israeli rule (where they choose to) and trying to
destroy the very country that has tried to be fair and open with them,
these Arab muslims pick up the notion that the land was "Palestine"
and that they are "Palestinians"; a claim that has no basis in
historical fact, but is the name of a nation that they would create
were they successful in "stealing" Israel from the non-Arab, non-muslim
Israelis.

Nope. The Arabs revolted from the first day. By the late
1950s desperation led to the first airplane hijackings.

"benefitting from Israeli rule" is an insult to anyone familiar
witrh the facts.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Were these folk content to live in peace with their neighbors, they
could do so as Israelis, right alongside all the other Israelis of
various ethnic and religious identity. But they don't.
Instead, the overarching muslim creed which insists that the jews MUST
be destroyed and that ALL others must submit and/or convert or DIE is
what they bring to the table.
Slavery, submission, death, destruction, and the imposition of
sharia law is their goal, over every person in every place, but
particularly and primarily, Israel.
Perhaps you'd like to return YOUR land to the folk it was stolen from,
eh Cliff?

People already lived there. The Brits, the US nor the UN had
any jurisdiction.

Life is short but memory is long. Either do the right thing or pay the
piper.

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net
Why not talk about that, and see where that logic takes you?
Regards,
mark evins

Post by Cliff
--
Cliff

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[S***@flashlight.net]

Post by Day Brown

Post by S***@flashlight.net
I think you missed the part about Israelis stealing other people's
land in 1948 as being the reason for the conflict.

Scuze me? Just who do you think they stole the land from? Did the
"Palestinians" really own it? Seems like it was in the hands of the
Brits, who had it as part of the spoils of war from the Ottomans, who
stole it from the Sultan, who stole it from the Byzantines, who stole it
from the Romans, who stole it from.... the Jews.

You sound like the US War Department rationalizing the massacre
of American Indians and the theft of their lands.

Don't act like an idiot. You know better.

Palestine as a nation is a recent notion.

Palestine as a British protectorate was studied and documented.
Censuses were taken. It was well known who lived there and
how long. Their names were registered with their property.

The area was known then and now as Palestine. The inhabitants
were usually identified by name as living in Palestine. People lived
on those lands for centuries and had title to the land through Arab
law.

The Jewish settlers of 1948 were invaders who took land from
people who physically and legally in possessed their land.

The Jewish settlers of 1948 were invaders who assaulted and
killed inhabitants of Palestine.

Its as simple as that.

Post by Day Brown
Who are back.

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[Cliff]

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by Gus

Post by Cliff
Now somebody did some neocon-style-approved rendition and
they started bombing Lebanon ... FIRST.

For 50 years Israel's neighbors have been attacking them.

I think you missed the part about Israelis stealing other people's
land in 1948 as being the reason for the conflict.

Kind of like organixed crime ....
Did they ever find those "WMDs"?

[m***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by Gus

Post by Cliff

Post by Gus

Post by Tim Smith
Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked
every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush
has told the UN "NO." Bush has told the European Union "NO." Bush has
told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister "NO." Twice.

<snipped mumbo jumbo>
Lebanese civillians are in the crossfire which is a shame but Israeli
civillians are the "targets" of terrorists. I don't hear you having any
sympathy for them.

Israel's been bombing many for decades & taking hostages
as well as much else that the UN has very strongly frowned on.
Now somebody did some neocon-style-approved rendition and
they started bombing Lebanon ... FIRST.
--
Cliff

For 50 years Israel's neighbors have been attacking them.

I think you missed the part about Israelis stealing other people's
land in 1948 as being the reason for the conflict.

Do keep in mind that it was British mandate territory, not Arabic, and
that the establishment of Israel was a product of the UN.
"Following World War II, the British withdrew from their mandate of
Palestine, and the UN partitioned the area into Arab and Jewish states,
an arrangement rejected by the Arabs. Subsequently, the Israelis
defeated the Arabs in a series of wars without ending the deep tensions
between the two sides."

The establishment of Israel was not done by "Israelis stealing other
people's land", rather, it was established by British withdrawal and
United Nations plan.

Post by S***@flashlight.net

Post by Gus
I guess the
difference I see is that Israel targets terrorists while terrorists
target innocent civillians. Israel might shoot a missile at some
terrorists in a car but the terrorists like to climb aboard city busses
and blow everyone up. I see a big difference, can't you?

Yeah, a big difference between blowing up a car of people vs a bus of
people.
A difference of no distinction.

Post by Gus
GW

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[S***@flashlight.net]

Post by Gus

Post by Tim Smith
Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked
every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush
has told the UN "NO." Bush has told the European Union "NO." Bush has
told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister "NO." Twice.

<snipped mumbo jumbo>
Lebanese civillians are in the crossfire which is a shame but Israeli
civillians are the "targets" of terrorists. I don't hear you having any
sympathy for them.
GW

By another perspective, the American Republican party sent an army
to Iraq, which it destroyed. The Republican party has also
kidnapped Arabs and imprisoned them indefinitely. That makes
the Republican party members terrorists.

Hezbollah is a political party founded in 1982 and has popular
support in Lebanon.

If you can't come up with a suitable substitute for "terrorist"
you should just call lawbreakers what they are, criminals,
or perps since they've not yet been tried.
.


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[Gus]

Post by S***@flashlight.net
By another perspective, the American Republican party sent an army
to Iraq, which it destroyed. The Republican party has also
kidnapped Arabs and imprisoned them indefinitely. That makes
the Republican party members terrorists.

Only by your definition. By mine, terrorists are people who get their
children to strap on suicide belts in order to go blow up a bus full of
people, all with the promise of "virgins in heaven".

Post by S***@flashlight.net
Hezbollah is a political party founded in 1982 and has popular
support in Lebanon.
If you can't come up with a suitable substitute for "terrorist"
you should just call lawbreakers what they are, criminals,
or perps since they've not yet been tried.
.
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[Cliff]

Post by Tim Smith
The Shame of Being an American
"Do you know that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing in southern
Lebanon? Israel has ordered all the villagers to clear out. Israel
then destroys their homes and murders the fleeing villagers. That way
there is no one to come back and nothing to which to return, making it
easier for Israel to grab the territory, just as Israel has been
stealing Palestine from the Palestinians.
Do you know that one-third of the Lebanese civilians murdered by
Israel's attacks on civilian residential districts are children? That
is the report from Jan Egeland, the emergency relief coordinator for
the UN. He says it is impossible for help to reach the wounded and
those buried in rubble, because Israeli air strikes have blown up all
the bridges and roads. Considering how often (almost always) Israel
misses Hezbollah targets and hits civilian ones, one might think that
Israeli fire is being guided by US satellites and US military GPS.
Don't be surprised at US complicity. Why would the puppet be any less
evil than the puppet master?
Of course, you don't know these things, because the US print and TV
media do not report them.
Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked
every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush
has told the UN "NO." Bush has told the European Union "NO." Bush has
told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister "NO." Twice. Bush is
very proud of his firmness. He is enjoying Israel's rampage and wishes
he could do the same thing in Iraq.
Does it make you a Proud American that "your" president gave Israel
the green light to drop bombs on convoys of villagers fleeing from
Israeli shelling, on residential neighborhoods in the capital of
Beirut and throughout Lebanon, on hospitals, on power plants, on food
production and storage, on ports, on civilian airports, on bridges, on
roads, on every piece of infrastructure on which civilized life
depends? Are you a Proud American? Or are you an Israeli puppet?
On July 20, "your" House of Representatives voted 410-8 in favor of
Israel's massive war crimes in Lebanon. Not content with making every
American complicit in war crimes, "your" House of Representatives,
according to the Associated Press, also "condemns enemies of the
Jewish state."
Who are the "enemies of the Jewish state"?
They are the Palestinians whose land has been stolen by the Jewish
state, whose homes and olive groves have been destroyed by the Jewish
state, whose children have been shot down in the streets by the Jewish
state, whose women have been abused by the Jewish state. They are
Palestinians who have been walled off into ghettos, who cannot reach
their farm lands or medical care or schools, who cannot drive on roads
through Palestine that have been constructed for Israelis only. They
are Palestinians whose ancient towns have been invaded by militant
Zionist "settlers" under the protection of the Israeli army who beat
and persecute the Palestinians and drive them out of their towns. They
are Palestinians who cannot allow their children outside their homes
because they will be murdered by Israeli "settlers."
The Palestinians who confront Israeli evil are called "terrorists."
When Bush forced free elections on Palestine, the people voted for
Hamas. Hamas is the organization that has stood up to Israel. This
means, of course, that Hamas is evil, anti-Semitic, un-American and
terrorist. The US and Israel responded by cutting off all funds to the
new government. Democracy is permitted only if it produces the results
Bush and Israel want.
Israelis never practice terror. Only those who are in Israel's way are
terrorists.
Another enemy of the Jewish state is Hezbollah. Hezbollah is a militia
of Shi'ite Muslims created in 1982 when Israel first invaded Lebanon.
During this invasion the great moral Jewish state arranged for the
murder of refugees in refugee camps. The result of Israel's atrocities
was Hezbollah, which fought the Israeli Army, defeated it, and drove
it out of Lebanon. Today Hezbollah not only defends southern Lebanon
but also provides social services such as orphanages and medical care.
To cut to the chase, the enemies of the Jewish state are any Muslim
country not ruled by an American puppet friendly to Israel. Egypt,
Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and the oil emirates have sided with Israel
against their own kind, because they are dependent either on American
money or on American protection from their own people. Sooner or later
these totally corrupt governments that do not represent the people
they rule will be overthrown. It is only a matter of time.
Indeed Bush and Israel may be hastening the process in their frantic
effort to overthrow the governments of Syria and Iran. Both
governments have more popular support than Bush has, but the White
House Moron doesn't know this. The Moron thinks Syria and Iran will be
"cakewalks" like Iraq, where ten proud divisions of the US military
are tied down by a few lightly armed insurgents.
If you are still a Proud American, consider that your pride is doing
nothing good for Israel or for America.
On July 20 when "your" House of Representatives, following "your" US
Senate, passed the resolution in support of Israel's war crimes, the
most powerful lobby in Washington, the American Israeli Public Affairs
Committee (AIPAC), quickly got out a press release proclaiming "The
American people overwhelming support Israel's war on terrorism and
understand that we must stand by our closest ally in this time of
crisis."
The truth is that Israel created the crisis by invading a country with
a pro-American government. The truth is that the American people do
not support Israel's war crimes, as the CNN quick poll results make
clear and as was made clear by callers into C-Span.
Despite the Israeli spin on news provided by US "reporting," a
majority of Americans do not approve of Israeli atrocities against
Lebanese civilians. Hezbollah is located in southern Lebanon. If
Israel is targeting Hezbollah, why are Israeli bombs falling on
northern Lebanon? Why are they falling on Beirut? Why are they falling
on civilian airports? On schools and hospitals?
Now we arrive at the main point. When the US Senate and House of
Representatives pass resolutions in support of Israeli war crimes and
condemn those who resist Israeli aggression, the Senate and House
confirm Osama bin Laden's propaganda that America stands with Israel
against the Arab and Muslim world.
Indeed, Israel, which has one of the world's largest per capita
incomes, is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. Many believe that
much of this "aid" comes back to AIPAC, which uses it to elect "our"
representatives in Congress.
This perception is no favor to Israel, whose population is declining,
as the smart ones have seen the writing on the wall and have been
leaving. Israel is surrounded by hundreds of millions of Muslims who
are being turned into enemies of Israel by Israel's actions and
inhumane policies.
The hope in the Muslim world has always been that the United States
would intervene in behalf of compromise and make Israel realize that
Israel cannot steal Palestine and turn every Palestinian into a
refugee.
This has been the hope of the Arab world. This is the reason our
puppets have not been overthrown. This hope is the reason America
still had some prestige in the Arab world.
The House of Representatives resolution, bought and paid for by AIPAC
money, is the final nail in the coffin of American prestige in the
Middle East. It shows that America is, indeed, Israel's puppet, just
as Osama bin Laden says, and as a majority of Muslims believe.
With hope and diplomacy dead, henceforth America and Israel have only
tooth and claw. The vaunted Israeli army could not defeat a rag tag
militia in southern Lebanon. The vaunted US military cannot defeat a
rag tag, lightly armed insurgency drawn from a minority of the
population in Iraq, insurgents, moreover, who are mainly engaged in
civil war against the Shi'ite majority.
What will the US and its puppet master do? Both are too full of hubris
and paranoia to admit their terrible mistakes. Israel and the US will
either destroy from the air the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon,
Palestine, Syria, and Iran so that civilized life becomes impossible
for Muslims, or the US and Israel will use nuclear weapons to
intimidate Muslims into acquiescence to Israel's desires.
Muslim genocide in one form or another is the professed goal of the
neoconservatives who have total control over the Bush administration.
Neocon godfather Norman Podhoretz has called for World War IV (in
neocon thinking WW III was the Cold War) to overthrow Islam in the
Middle East, deracinate the Islamic religion and turn it into a
formalized, secular ritual.
Rumsfeld's neocon Pentagon has drafted new US war doctrine that
permits pre-emptive nuclear attack on non-nuclear states.
Neocon David Horowitz says that by slaughtering Palestinian and
Lebanese civilians, "Israel is doing the work of the rest of the
civilized world," thus equating war criminals with civilized men.
Neocon Larry Kudlow says that "Israel is doing the Lord's work" by
murdering Lebanese, a claim that should give pause to Israel's
Christian evangelical supporters. Where does the Lord Jesus say, "go
forth and murder your neighbors so that you may steal their lands"?
The complicity of the American public in these heinous crimes will
damn America for all time in history."

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