[Goanet] Another Kaneo .. or is it .. Hot Air?

[Gilbert Lawrence]

My post discourages the use of MAJOR cancer surgery in keeping with current standards of care in cancer. The practitioners of poor cancer care are unfortunately physicians. These are especially those who were trained more than 15 years ago and who do not necessarily keep up with the science. Like all mortals, we doctors believe what we were taught as novices. In this case, "more is better". And that will be the tendency, unless one is involved in the particular field, on a daily basis. Perhaps the budding generation of doctors, taught the latest clinical trials and recommendations from National Cancer Organizations, will change practice patterns.

In the USA, at the best cancer centers, only 15% of women with early breast cancer loose their breast (or undergo mastectomy). Yet the mastectomy rates for early breast cancer in some small hospitals in some parts of the country is 70%. In India, the mastectomy rate is high. Many women have to fight with their surgeons to have breast preservation treatment, even in major cities and big hospitals. The conceptual rationale being, women do not need their breast after 50 years of age. Breast cancer treatment is just one example.

This is a good time to remind Goenkars, who are over 50 years of age, to get their prostate and blood PSA checked in this "Prostate cancer awareness month". In USA, every year 35,000+ men die from prostate cancer - a highly curable disease if detected early. A hundred times more American men die every week from prostate cancer than US soldiers dying in Afghanistan and Iraq (combined). Prostate cancer is common cancer in Goan men.

The take home message regarding treatment for cancer patients is get familiar with treatment alternatives long before the illness strikes. And get a second opinion when one is diagnosed. One looks at alternatives when one buys a car, house, clothes. Yet we will not do so when our own life is on the line.

And cancer victims should not forget, there is good albeit preliminary data on the boost in their own immune markers with prayer, meditation, psychotherapy, relaxation techniques, family and social support, exercise, etc.

Kind Regards, GL


---- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Though Gilbert - who is, after all, a Board Certified oncologist - unfortunately used the folksy Goan kaneos, "air-exposition" baloney in this non-medical forum, [forgetting the forum also included some brilliant physicians eager to engage in some "peer-review":-))] wasn't the essence of his post the following paragraph?
"The current explanation for this (statistical significant) observation is that the surgery depresses the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery has undergone and is undergoing significant shift. From big radical cancer surgery we have turned/flipped and are now into minimal/organ-saving cancer surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that markers of the immune system are significantly suppressed after major surgery."

[Gilbert Lawrence]

My apologies to the few who found my writings making the practice of good medicine both controversial and misleading. Some had their sodanchem confusaum muree. I tried to inform Goans about the current standard of cancer care without demagoging the facts. Is this not, what a bulletin board is meant to do?

I notice quite a few doctors were in the forefront in their attacks on religion. Yet when it comes to abuses in medicine, they are silent. Or they may voice concern about "confusing Goan readers" by alerting them about poor medical practices.

It was interesting to see Kevin corroborate with his readings of the immune system "stimulated via a multitude of modalities like
meditation and prayer". Now instead of maligning yesterday's mauxis for their kaneo, why do not today's xapais provide explanations of today's observations? Or would we have to go to the Xapotam web site for that?
Kind Regards, GL

------------Kevin Saldanha "saligao at allstream.net" <saligao at allstream.net>

Both you and Jose appear to have missed the gist of Gilbert's post.

The influence of the immune system in self-healing is evident in many studies and it can be stimulated via a multitude of modalities like meditation and prayer.

[Santosh Helekar]

Kevin Saldanha "saligao at allstream.net"
<saligao at allstream.net>

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Both you and Jose appear to have missed the gist of
Gilbert's post.

Hi Kevin,

Sorry, I don't think so. That post was under the
Science and Religion thread. It made the following
unsupported and frivolous claims, and I paraphrase
(Please see the original post again):

1. A modern scientific experiment in mice has shown
that an old grandmother's kaannee about cancer surgery
causing a cancer to spread was accurate.

2.Only a pseudo-scientist would ignore the
observations from grandmother's kaanneo.

3. When doctors do not know what is going on, they
call it "the immune system", instead of calling it the
soul, inner strength, God within, etc. But for a
supurlo Goenkar like Gilbert there is no difference
between these terms.

4. People all over the world, over the last 5000
years, had similar perspectives on this issue as
doctors today.

5. Gilbert has seen quite a few Goans get ill due to
disregard of grandmother's kaanneo.

6. Gilbert has provided the scientific basis of some
Goan myths and grandmother's kaanneo in his book on
Goa.

I hope you get the correct gist of his post.

Please read the latest review articles to find out
about the effects of surgical stress on the immune
system and the role of aggressive cancer surgery in
different types of cancer, e.g. in ovarian cancer.
Also, I am sure you know that a good book on modern
immunology would tell you how much knowledge about the
immune system at the molecular, cellular and systems
level, has accumulated just over the last 10 years.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha]

Dr Santosh's unabashed faith in the miracles and potential of science,
once again, underlines that he treats it like a religion.

I came across the work of Dr Manu Kothari and Dr Lopa Mehta through
the OIBS at Mapusa. Please tell me if they are "quacks" or just people
willing to question the dominant paradigm of corporate-dominated and
defined medicine?

http://www.healthlibrary.com/reading/living/chap6.html
Best cancer, as a paradigm, typifies the colossal failure of cancer
research: It is a subcutaneaous (under-the-skin, superficial) cancer -
the natural history of which has been studied for the past 200 years
at least, easily amenable to examination by the patient herself, and
more so by the doctor, subjected to varied forms of grading, staging,
radiography, hormonal therapy, minimal to most radical surgery, and
cocktails of chemotherapy -that has stubbornly refused to yield at
all, in any way from the time a group of Scottish physicians published
a memorandum on its nature in 1802. Indeed, Atkins of England pointed
out that the recent studies on breast cancer have made such tremendous
progress that, today, no one knows how to treat it.

Please see:
Living Dying
by Dr Manu L Kothari and Dr Lopa A Mehta
http://www.healthlibrary.com/reading/living/index.html

FN

Post by Santosh Helekar
Please read the latest review articles to find out
about the effects of surgical stress on the immune
system and the role of aggressive cancer surgery in
different types of cancer, e.g. in ovarian cancer.
Also, I am sure you know that a good book on modern
immunology would tell you how much knowledge about the
immune system at the molecular, cellular and systems
level, has accumulated just over the last 10 years.

[Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha]

Dr Santosh's unabashed faith in the miracles and potential of science,
once again, underlines that he treats it like a religion.

I came across the work of Dr Manu Kothari and Dr Lopa Mehta through
the OIBS at Mapusa. Please tell me if they are "quacks" or just people
willing to question the dominant paradigm of corporate-dominated and
defined medicine?

http://www.healthlibrary.com/reading/living/chap6.html
Best cancer, as a paradigm, typifies the colossal failure of cancer
research: It is a subcutaneaous (under-the-skin, superficial) cancer -
the natural history of which has been studied for the past 200 years
at least, easily amenable to examination by the patient herself, and
more so by the doctor, subjected to varied forms of grading, staging,
radiography, hormonal therapy, minimal to most radical surgery, and
cocktails of chemotherapy -that has stubbornly refused to yield at
all, in any way from the time a group of Scottish physicians published
a memorandum on its nature in 1802. Indeed, Atkins of England pointed
out that the recent studies on breast cancer have made such tremendous
progress that, today, no one knows how to treat it.

Please see:
Living Dying
by Dr Manu L Kothari and Dr Lopa A Mehta
http://www.healthlibrary.com/reading/living/index.html

FN

Post by Santosh Helekar
Please read the latest review articles to find out
about the effects of surgical stress on the immune
system and the role of aggressive cancer surgery in
different types of cancer, e.g. in ovarian cancer.
Also, I am sure you know that a good book on modern
immunology would tell you how much knowledge about the
immune system at the molecular, cellular and systems
level, has accumulated just over the last 10 years.

[Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha]

Dr Santosh's unabashed faith in the miracles and potential of science,
once again, underlines that he treats it like a religion.

I came across the work of Dr Manu Kothari and Dr Lopa Mehta through
the OIBS at Mapusa. Please tell me if they are "quacks" or just people
willing to question the dominant paradigm of corporate-dominated and
defined medicine?

http://www.healthlibrary.com/reading/living/chap6.html
Best cancer, as a paradigm, typifies the colossal failure of cancer
research: It is a subcutaneaous (under-the-skin, superficial) cancer -
the natural history of which has been studied for the past 200 years
at least, easily amenable to examination by the patient herself, and
more so by the doctor, subjected to varied forms of grading, staging,
radiography, hormonal therapy, minimal to most radical surgery, and
cocktails of chemotherapy -that has stubbornly refused to yield at
all, in any way from the time a group of Scottish physicians published
a memorandum on its nature in 1802. Indeed, Atkins of England pointed
out that the recent studies on breast cancer have made such tremendous
progress that, today, no one knows how to treat it.

Please see:
Living Dying
by Dr Manu L Kothari and Dr Lopa A Mehta
http://www.healthlibrary.com/reading/living/index.html

FN

Post by Santosh Helekar
Please read the latest review articles to find out
about the effects of surgical stress on the immune
system and the role of aggressive cancer surgery in
different types of cancer, e.g. in ovarian cancer.
Also, I am sure you know that a good book on modern
immunology would tell you how much knowledge about the
immune system at the molecular, cellular and systems
level, has accumulated just over the last 10 years.

[Santosh Helekar]

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I notice quite a few doctors were in the forefront
in their attacks on religion. Yet when it comes to
abuses in medicine, they are silent. Or they may
voice concern about "confusing Goan readers" by
alerting them about poor medical practices.

In my post entitled "Myths and Misinformation
regarding
Cancer", rather than remaining silent, I provided an
example of an abuse in medicine. I showed how modern
medical facts were distorted and misrepresented in a
public forum under a thread entitled "Science as
Religion / response to Fred". I hope doctors, as well
as non-doctors, continue to expose such abuses in
medicine.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Alfred de Tavares]

Now instead of maligning yesterday's mauxis for their kaneo, why do not
today's xapais provide explanations of today's observations? Or would we
have to go to the Xapotam web site for that?

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Kind Regards, GL

GL,

Should'nt it be "another kani"

Zaito kaneo

Ek kani

Konknichea mogan,
AT

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Santosh Helekar
Sorry, I don't think so. That post was under the
Science and Religion thread. It made the following
unsupported and frivolous claims, and I paraphrase
1. A modern scientific experiment in mice has shown
that an old grandmother's kaannee about cancer
surgery causing a cancer to spread was accurate.

Mario observes:
To begin with Gilbert is a Board Certified cancer
specialist, Santosh is not.
What difference does it make if Gilbert's post was in
some "Science and Religion" thread?
Santosh's assertion above is completely false. It is
arrived at by taking Gilbert's post completely out of
context and perspective as anyone can see by reading
the original post in the URL
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048340.html
In a deliberate attempt to twist Gilbert's post,
Santosh has ignored the key paragraph in Gilbert's
post which is as follows:
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.

Post by Santosh Helekar
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned/flipped

and are now into minimal/organ-saving cancer surgery.
Laboratory studies on humans show that markers of the
immune system are significantly suppressed after major
surgery."
The gist of Gilbert's post was that what seemed to the
grandmothers to be caused by exposition to air [the
spread of cancer], was actually being caused by a
suppression of the immune system. However, the
grandmothers had no way of knowing this, leading to
their kaneos.

[Gilbert Lawrence]

Hi Mario,

I beg your indulgence to switch the title of the thread "Allowing Others To Walk Their Paths" to the more appropriate "Another Kaneo .. or is it .. Hot Air?"
Compliments for your sharp observations, which you have outlined below.
You should tutor some our goanet "research scientists" to interpret correctly what to most is plainly observed.

These are the same guys that write pious posts and claim:
Me? Distort others? Not on my word of honor! ....
Or "Moderators please have the gust to censor me for such behavior."

Kind Regards, GL

------------ Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
For example, right after posting the seemingly conciliatory comments, this same Kevin could not resist the temptation to post:
a) "This does not stop the faith healers or other religious leaders from accepting donations in return for (ineffective) prayers."
b) "Interestingly, prayer had a positive effect on the rate of immaculate conceptions;-)"
What makes this even more interesting is that Kevin, who is a vetenarian, is commenting on a facetious post on Goan kaneos as they relate to cancer by Gilbert, who is a Board Certified oncologist.
Kevin joined Santosh and Jose, who are not trained oncologists either. Santosh even claimed in his response to Gilbert, "The post appended below propagates dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this public forum.".
However, what Kevin seems to have understood before descending into ridicule, which Santosh and Jose seem to have missed, intentionally or intentionally, is the following key and serious paragraph in Gilbert's otherwise light-hearted post, which was as follows:
"The current explanation for this (statistical significant) observation is that the surgery depresses the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery has undergone and is undergoing significant shift. From big radical cancer surgery we have turned/flipped and are now into minimal/organ-saving cancer surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that markers of the immune system are significantly suppressed after major surgery."
In other words, what the Goan grandmothers thought was being caused by exposition to air, was in fact, being caused by a depression of the immune system.
For those who understood what Gilbert was trying to say, there was no propagation of "...dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this public forum."

This post from DailyOM is pertinent to the ongoing jousting on GoaNet. If more members understood that this forum is primarily for expressing their views and not necessarily for brow-beating opponents, we can have a much more enjoyable and productive dialogue.

[Gilbert Lawrence]

Santosh, as usual, keeps distorting other peoples' writings. He is so good at it, that I wonder if he does the same in his daily work?
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Kevin .

Both you (Santosh) and Jose appear to have missed the gist of Gilbert's post.

GL: Absolutely correct!

---------- Santosh


1. A modern scientific experiment in mice has shown that an old grandmother's kaannee about cancer surgery causing a cancer to spread was accurate.

GL: Mistake!
The mice experiment caused the cancer cells to grow more rapidly. In the experiment, the cancer had already spread prior to the surgery. (Please see the original post again). The spread was one of the first steps prior to the real test (separation of mice) started. Santosh's above statement clearly demonstrates his difficulty / inability to observe and interpret what is clearly written and plainly seen by most.

2. Only a pseudo-scientist would ignore the observations from grandmother's kaanneo.

GL: Thankfully Accurate.

3. When doctors do not know what is going on, they call it "the immune system", instead of calling it the soul, inner strength, God within, etc. But for a supurlo Goenkar like Gilbert there is no difference between these terms.

GL: Total fabrication by Santosh

4. People all over the world, over the last 5000 years, had similar perspectives on this issue as doctors today.

GL: I do not know what "perspectives" Santosh is referring to! Yet again, it is a total distortion of my writings.

5. Gilbert has seen quite a few Goans get ill due to disregard of grandmother's kaanneo.

GL: Accurate.

6. Gilbert has provided the scientific basis of some Goan myths and grandmother's kaanneo in his book on Goa.

GL: Thankfully accurate.

I hope you get the correct gist of his post.

GL: Santosh had done it again with half truths and half distortions. He does what he accuses others of: Distortion of him and his writings.
I would like to follow the dictum. "Do not argue with a fool. They drag you down to their level and overpower you with experience."

The non-medicos who have read my posts have publicly and privately written to me stating they followed my writings and thanked me for the useful information. Not surprisingly, I will continue to have to work on the doctors. :=)) This is my last post on this thread.

Regards, GL

[Santosh Helekar]

Frederick,

That is a horribly written article. Many of the
statements contained in it are demonstrably false.
Many others, especially the quotes, are simply out of
date by more than 30 years. The excessive use of
neologisms betrays the vacuousness of some of the
claims made. As far as whether one or both of the
authors are quacks or not, would depend on how
strongly they deny well-established facts such as the
observation that the HIV virus causes AIDS, and why.

Cheers,

Santosh

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"

Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Dr Santosh's unabashed faith in the miracles and
potential of science,
once again, underlines that he treats it like a
religion.
I came across the work of Dr Manu Kothari and Dr
Lopa Mehta through the OIBS at Mapusa. Please tell
me if they are "quacks" or just people willing to
question the dominant paradigm of corporate-dominated
and defined medicine?

[Gilbert Lawrence]

Hi Fred,

I attempted to bring to Goanet readers some of the advances and pitfalls in practice patterns in my filed of expertise. I appreciate the thanks I recieved both publicly and privately from the goanetters. I wished other specialists would have used this opporutnity to undertake a similar expose in their own field, to alert Goans about changes occuring.

Yet as you point out, there are a few indiviudals who are experts in everybody else's profession. Perhaps their field has not had any new develpements to report or changes in practice patterns. Thus, they have ample time to (superficially) keep up with other fields or at least opine about them. If everything fails, a quick net search will always unearth something to demagogue some aspect of the post. In Konkanni, is such writing called "fuggdi"?

I am off to a well deserved vacation / cruise with my good wife.
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Frederick \"FN\" Noronha" <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>

I think Gilbert did an interesting expose -- from a field of his specialisation -- to explain how we can be caught in a time-warp and still feel very sanctimonous about it....

It might not be unrealistic to say that "modern medicine" is, at best, a changing field of knowledge. One that is limited by current-day knowledge, biases, and even the interests of big pharma and other lobbies.

Goanet is indeed a great place. Neurospecialists tell oncologists how they should do their work. Paediatricians lecture to historians. And we have medical ethics being applied to decide what's wrong and right in the field of journalism. We just perhaps need to start being critical of our own fields, and their flaws. For instance, I would be the first to say journalism (forget about concepts like "precision journalism") is still very much of a hit-and-miss activity, one that is filled with flaws and human biases, and is definitely not as neutral and objective as made out to be by classic text-book scenarios.
I notice quite a few doctors were in the forefront in their attacks on religion. Yet when it comes to abuses in medicine, they are silent. Or like you, they may voice concern about "confusing Goan readers" with alerting them about poor medical practices.

[Gilbert Lawrence]

Updated!

To borrow from Mario, ......... I do not know whether to laugh or to cry?

The surgery for ovarian cancer is to stage and to "debulk" the disease. This is NOT radical surgery to remove "all possible" tumor extension through the abdomen as was done in the past with "aggressive cancer surgery". In current medical practice, that role (to eradicate possible tumor extension) is accomplished with chemotherapy. This combined approach achieves better results with less side-effects and mortality.

Fred, as you and others may know, there is only so much knowledge one can get and understand from a net-search.

Kind Regards, GL

Post by Santosh Helekar
Please read the latest review articles to find out
about the effects of surgical stress on the immune
system and the role of aggressive cancer surgery in
different types of cancer, e.g. in ovarian cancer.
Also, I am sure you know that a good book on modern
immunology would tell you how much knowledge about the
immune system at the molecular, cellular and systems
level, has accumulated just over the last 10 years.

----------- Frederick Noronha

Dr Santosh's unabashed faith in the miracles and potential of science,
once again, underlines that he treats it like a religion.

I came across the work of Dr Manu Kothari and Dr Lopa Mehta through
the OIBS at Mapusa. Please tell me if they are "quacks" or just people
willing to question the dominant paradigm of corporate-dominated and
defined medicine?

http://www.healthlibrary.com/reading/living/chap6.html
Breast cancer, as a paradigm, typifies the colossal failure of cancer
research: It is a subcutaneaous (under-the-skin, superficial) cancer -
the natural history of which has been studied for the past 200 years
at least, easily amenable to examination by the patient herself, and
more so by the doctor, subjected to varied forms of grading, staging,
radiography, hormonal therapy, minimal to most radical surgery, and
cocktails of chemotherapy -that has stubbornly refused to yield at
all, in any way from the time a group of Scottish physicians published
a memorandum on its nature in 1802. Indeed, Atkins of England pointed
out that the recent studies on breast cancer have made such tremendous
progress that, today, no one knows how to treat it.

[Mervyn Lobo]

"Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"

Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Dr Santosh's unabashed faith in the miracles and
potential of science, once again, underlines that
he treats it like a religion.

Fred,
You are making no sense at all.

I think you should stick to telling us what you know
and let Santosh tells us what he does. Santosh has
never put words in your mouth. I wonder why you have
taken it upon yourself to put words in his.

Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
I came across the work of Dr Manu Kothari and Dr
Lopa Mehta through
the OIBS at Mapusa. Please tell me if they are
"quacks" or just people willing to question the
dominant paradigm of corporate-dominated and
defined medicine?

Here in N. America most Goans have invested their
savings in mutual funds. Most of these mutual funds
include the medial colossals like Bayer, Bristol
Meyers Squid, etc. New drugs from these companies are
often block buster sellers making the shareholders
very rich.

The drugs are block busters because they work well. If
you were in N. America I would have advised you too to
invest in these corporate dominated medicines.

Mervyn3.0



__________________________________________________
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[Santosh Helekar]

I am sorry that Gilbert thinks that I have distorted
one of his claims, made a mistake on one, and
fabricated another one. Because of this dispute he has
gone on and said several negative things about me, and
implied that I am a fool. But I am grateful to him to
have at least been generous enough to concede that I
have accurately paraphrased three of his six claims.

However, I would really like to understand what
exactly it is that he was trying to say in the
statements that he disputes. Therefore, I would like
to actually quote these disputed statements from his
post. And I humbly ask him to clarify them, and answer
a few of questions about them.

Post by Santosh Helekar
1. A modern scientific experiment in mice has shown
that an old grandmother's kaannee about cancer
surgery causing a cancer to spread was accurate.
GL: Mistake!

Here is Gilbert's original quote that I am referring
to:

"Many may have heared in Goa, and in fact all over the
world, the belief that when you operate on cancer,
(open the patient), it makes the cancer spread and
the outcome worse. The explanation was, if / when air
gets to the cancer, the tumor became aggressive. So
this is believed to be a Goan Kaneo.

A few years ago, an experiment was undertaken where a
batch of mice were injected with an identical quantity
(volume) of aggressive cancer cells. As expected the
mice developed multiple tumors (metastasis) in the
lung. Half the mice were then operated to remove
tumors from just one lung. The other half of the batch
of mice did not undergo any surgery. The mice were
then followed. The mice with their tumor (partly)
removed died much earlier than the group where the
tumors in both lungs were allowed to grow
uninterrupted. Thus the grandmother's observation was
accurate."
..............Gilbert Lawrence

(Please see his original post at
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048340.html)

Gilbert has now given another explanation quoted

Post by Santosh Helekar
The mice experiment caused the cancer cells to grow
more rapidly. In the experiment, the cancer had
already spread prior to the surgery. (Please see
the original post again). The spread was one of the
first steps prior to the real test (separation of
mice) started. Santosh's above statement clearly
demonstrates his difficulty / inability to observe
and interpret what is clearly written and plainly
seen by most.

The questions I have are:

1. Can Gilbert please provide me with the
bibliographic reference to the original research paper
that described this experiment?

2. What did he mean by the following assertions:

a) "Many may have heared in Goa, and in fact all over
the world, the belief that when you operate on cancer,
(open the patient), it makes the cancer spread and
the outcome worse."

b) "Thus the grandmother's observation was accurate."

Post by Santosh Helekar
3. When doctors do not know what is going on, they
call it "the immune system", instead of calling it
the soul, inner strength, God within, etc. But for a
supurlo Goenkar like Gilbert there is no difference
between these terms.
GL: Total fabrication by Santosh

Here is Gilbert's original quote to which I referred:

"Now one can point to the fact that when doctors do
not know what is going on, they call it "the immune
system" instead of: inner strength / Mind / soul / Id
/ God within / self awareness/ inner essence / love /
sentience / spirit / self / ego / emotion / pathos /
carnal / atma / jiva / essence / Ego / Ekam / Ghost /
Vitalism. Surely philosophers and theologians can
make things complicated. But, for me a supurlo
Goenkar, all these is the "same difference". :=))"
....................Gilbert Lawrence

(Please see his original post at
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048340.html)

Now my question to Gilbert is:

1. Which part of my paraphrased statement is a total
fabrication?

Post by Santosh Helekar
4. People all over the world, over the last 5000
years, had similar perspectives on this issue as
doctors today.
GL: I do not know what "perspectives" Santosh is
referring to! Yet again, it is a total distortion
of my writings.

Here is Gilbert's original quote to which I referred:

"Now one can point to the fact that when doctors do
not know what is going on, they call it "the immune
system" instead of: inner strength / Mind / soul / Id
/ God within / self awareness/ inner essence / love /
sentience / spirit / self / ego / emotion / pathos /
carnal / atma / jiva / essence / Ego / Ekam / Ghost /
Vitalism. Surely philosophers and theologians can
make things complicated. But, for me a supurlo
Goenkar, all these is the "same difference". :=))
This long list is to show that people from all over
the world, over the last 5,000 years have had similar
perspectives."

Now the question I have for Gilbert is:

1. What "perspectives" was he referring to in the
above quote, and what part of my paraphrased statement
is a distortion?

I hope Gilbert answers my questions.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Santosh Helekar]

I think Gilbert is right about his description of the
surgical treatment of ovarian cancer, as he should be.
The only minor point of contention might be his
rejection of the term "aggressive". The nice thing
about modern medical research, or rather, scientific
research in general, is that the latest advances get
published in high quality peer-reviewed journals that
physicians, medical scientists, as well as interested
and well-informed patients and lay people can read.
For example, those who are interested in finding out
about improved survival due to aggressive surgery in
advanced ovarian cancer, can read the following
research paper published in January of this year in
the journal "Obstetrics and Gynecology":

"Aletti GD, Dowdy SC, Gostout BS, Jones MB, Stanhope
CR, Wilson TO, Podratz KC, and Cliby WA (2006)

Aggressive surgical effort and improved survival in
advanced-stage ovarian cancer, Obstet Gynecol,
107(1):77-85."

Those who want to have a copy of this paper are
welcome to email me. I am sure Gilbert would also be
happy to provide you a copy of it.

Cheers,

Santosh

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Updated!
To borrow from Mario, ......... I do not know
whether to laugh or to cry?
The surgery for ovarian cancer is to stage and to
"debulk" the disease. This is NOT radical surgery
to remove "all possible" tumor extension through the
abdomen as was done in the past with "aggressive
cancer surgery". In current medical practice, that
role (to eradicate possible tumor extension) is
accomplished with chemotherapy. This combined
approach achieves better results with less
side-effects and mortality.
Fred, as you and others may know, there is only so
much knowledge one can get and understand from a
net-search.
Kind Regards, GL

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Compliments for your sharp observations, which you
have outlined below.
You should tutor some our goanet "research
scientists" to interpret correctly what to most is
plainly observed.

Mario observes:
Gilbert,
I did not have to "interpret" anything you wrote. I
was all there in plain English for anyone who was
interested in critically reading your folksy
explanation of how grandmas kaneos develop.
What shocked me were the viciously deliberate
misrepresentations by a couple of medically trained
Goanetters. If they wanted to clarify what you had
written they could have asked you some pointed
questions. Instead, they made stentorian
mean-spirited claims in this public forum that you
were propagating dangerous myths and misinformation
regarding cancer treatment, then insisted on repeating
the calumny.
It begged a couple of other questions as well. For
example, a) why would you, as a Board Certified
oncologist who had taken the Hippocratic Oath
propagate myths and misinformation about cancer
treatment? and b) why would they, experienced in
medical research, deliberately misrepresent your
comments, when others, using simple English,
understood exactly what you were saying?

[Santosh Helekar]

It turns out that the American Cancer Society had
conducted a survey on one of the cancer myths that was
posted in this forum. They found that 41% of the
people in America believe in this myth. Here is the
relevant info about it from the American Cancer
Society:

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_11_1_Myths_About_Surgery_for_Cancer.asp

"Does Surgery Cause Cancer to Spread?

By Ted Gansler, MD, MBA; Director of Medical Content,
American Cancer Society

True or False?: Treating cancer with surgery causes it
to spread throughout the body.

Respondents Who Agreed: 41%

Origin: This myth may have started many years ago when
most patients already had very advanced cancers by the
time they sought medical care. Doctors may have
operated to find the cause of a patient's illness and
found an advanced cancer that could not be treated
successfully. When the patient died a short time
later, observers thought the surgery caused the cells
to spread and killed the patient.

Reality: Specialists in cancer surgery know how to
safely take biopsy samples and to remove tumors
without causing spread of the cancer. In many cases,
surgery is an essential part of the cancer treatment
plan.

For a few types of cancer, surgeons take extra
precautions to prevent any chance of the cancer
spreading. For example, in testicular cancer the
entire testicle containing the cancer is removed, so
no cancer cells are dislodged. Doctors who perform
surgery for cancer are specialists and are highly
trained in the intricacies of cancer and anatomy.

Learning about treatment options such as surgery is
very helpful and can be reassuring to patients going
through the cancer experience."

Cheers,

Santosh

[Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha]

While we are discussing this issue, may I narrate some sad news?

A college, Umesh Mahambre, the chief reporter of the Navhind Times,
was diagnosed with some cysts, and referred to the Tata Memorial. Even
before the biopsy could be conducted, he died. The funeral is today.
Mahambre was 48.

It seems the stress of living with potential cancer, and the kind of
treatment it currently implies, can also kill. The flurry of
cancer-related reports (maybe not always medically sound) you might
have seen referred to in the Goa press, might have to do with the
illness of a colleague.

Mahambre was in Mumbai for hardly 10-15 days. I don't have any
qualifications need to deal with such a subject, except a healthy
skepticism when it comes to believing all that we are told by
"Science", and accepting it as the Gospel truth of the 21st century.
FN

Post by Santosh Helekar
It turns out that the American Cancer Society had
conducted a survey on one of the cancer myths that was
posted in this forum. They found that 41% of the
people in America believe in this myth. Here is the
relevant info about it from the American Cancer

[Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha]

While we are discussing this issue, may I narrate some sad news?

A college, Umesh Mahambre, the chief reporter of the Navhind Times,
was diagnosed with some cysts, and referred to the Tata Memorial. Even
before the biopsy could be conducted, he died. The funeral is today.
Mahambre was 48.

It seems the stress of living with potential cancer, and the kind of
treatment it currently implies, can also kill. The flurry of
cancer-related reports (maybe not always medically sound) you might
have seen referred to in the Goa press, might have to do with the
illness of a colleague.

Mahambre was in Mumbai for hardly 10-15 days. I don't have any
qualifications need to deal with such a subject, except a healthy
skepticism when it comes to believing all that we are told by
"Science", and accepting it as the Gospel truth of the 21st century.
FN

Post by Santosh Helekar
It turns out that the American Cancer Society had
conducted a survey on one of the cancer myths that was
posted in this forum. They found that 41% of the
people in America believe in this myth. Here is the
relevant info about it from the American Cancer

[Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha]

While we are discussing this issue, may I narrate some sad news?

A college, Umesh Mahambre, the chief reporter of the Navhind Times,
was diagnosed with some cysts, and referred to the Tata Memorial. Even
before the biopsy could be conducted, he died. The funeral is today.
Mahambre was 48.

It seems the stress of living with potential cancer, and the kind of
treatment it currently implies, can also kill. The flurry of
cancer-related reports (maybe not always medically sound) you might
have seen referred to in the Goa press, might have to do with the
illness of a colleague.

Mahambre was in Mumbai for hardly 10-15 days. I don't have any
qualifications need to deal with such a subject, except a healthy
skepticism when it comes to believing all that we are told by
"Science", and accepting it as the Gospel truth of the 21st century.
FN

Post by Santosh Helekar
It turns out that the American Cancer Society had
conducted a survey on one of the cancer myths that was
posted in this forum. They found that 41% of the
people in America believe in this myth. Here is the
relevant info about it from the American Cancer

[Peter D'Souza]

Is there anyone besides Santosh Helekar who has completely missed the
point of Gilbert's post?

Peter
---

Subject: Re: [Goanet] More info on the Cancer Myth
It turns out that the American Cancer Society had
conducted a survey on one of the cancer myths that was
posted in this forum. They found that 41% of the
people in America believe in this myth. Here is the
relevant info about it from the American Cancer
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_11_1_Myths_About_Surgery_for_Cancer.asp
"Does Surgery Cause Cancer to Spread?

[Santosh Helekar]

Post by Peter D'Souza
Is there anyone besides Santosh Helekar who has
completely missed the point of Gilbert's post?

Peter,

I think you have already demonstrated many times that
you, Gilbert and others who share your views are much
smarter than me at everything. I would therefore
humbly ask you to stop embarrassing me any further on
Goanet. Can you be so kind as to honor this humble
request of mine?

Cheers,

Santosh

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
While we are discussing this issue, may I narrate
some sad news?
A college, Umesh Mahambre, the chief reporter of the
Navhind Times, was diagnosed with some cysts, and
referred to the Tata Memorial. Even before the
biopsy could be conducted, he died. The funeral is
today. Mahambre was 48.

Mario observes:
Fred,
Condolences to the Mahambre family and Umesh's
friends.
Chances are that Umesh's condition had spread beyond
the ability of medical science to contain this killer
disease which mostly ambushes one without any apparent
reason - though some like the smoking and environment
related cancers have a cause and effect, though not on
everyone so exposed.
The trick to dealing with cancer is early recognition.
Then, some cancers are far worse than others and
harder to deal with because of their location and/or
virulence. I was fortunate. While I had a rare and
virulent form, it was outside the torso and/or the
cranium, and they were able to dig it all out and then
nuke my whole body with chemo and radiation because I
had told the oncologists to be as aggressive as they
knew how.
It was lousy while it lasted but I survived to become
the bane of forum moderators and religion-bashers and
anti-Americans on various internet forums:-))
It also changed my outlook. I used to shy away from
people who were dying, or find excuses to avoid seeing
them. Now I reach out to them and follow their lead
and encourage them to fight to the death and cope with
the treatment they need to endure.

[Roland Francis]

Post by Mario Goveia
It also changed my outlook. I used to shy away from
people who were dying, or find excuses to avoid seeing
them. Now I reach out to them and follow their lead
and encourage them to fight to the death and cope with
the treatment they need to endure.

Now, Mario, what will it take for you to change your outlook towards
homosexuals and for you tto stop shying away from them (re your "they
can do what they wish as long as they don't stuff it in my face").

Should they be dying in order for you to accept them?

[Roland Francis]

Post by Mario Goveia
It also changed my outlook. I used to shy away from
people who were dying, or find excuses to avoid seeing
them. Now I reach out to them and follow their lead
and encourage them to fight to the death and cope with
the treatment they need to endure.

Now, Mario, what will it take for you to change your outlook towards
homosexuals and for you tto stop shying away from them (re your "they
can do what they wish as long as they don't stuff it in my face").

Should they be dying in order for you to accept them?

[Roland Francis]

Post by Mario Goveia
It also changed my outlook. I used to shy away from
people who were dying, or find excuses to avoid seeing
them. Now I reach out to them and follow their lead
and encourage them to fight to the death and cope with
the treatment they need to endure.

Now, Mario, what will it take for you to change your outlook towards
homosexuals and for you tto stop shying away from them (re your "they
can do what they wish as long as they don't stuff it in my face").

Should they be dying in order for you to accept them?

[Peter D'Souza]

Santosh,

The only thing that some of us have demonstrated concerning you is
that we don't take everything you say (or quote) at face value.

I'm sorry, I can't offer you any help in your newfound effort to stop
embarrassing yourself, but here's something that may help: You know
how you're surrounded by a small group who never ever disagree with
you, some who often rush to your defense? Well, every time that you
feel that knee-jerk urge to vehemently disagree with and embarrass one
of the conservatives on this forum, ask yourself what you'd do if it
were one of your coterie instead.

Peter
--

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:18:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Peter,
I think you have already demonstrated many times that
you, Gilbert and others who share your views are much
smarter than me at everything. I would therefore
humbly ask you to stop embarrassing me any further on
Goanet. Can you be so kind as to honor this humble
request of mine?
Cheers,
Santosh

[Santosh Helekar]

Peter,

Have you ever considered the possibility that you
might be wrong? From my standpoint, if you have
revealed anything in this forum, it is that you have
developed an antipathy towards me. I also know from
earlier experience, that you are fighting your own
imaginary battles between liberals and conservatives
divided along some arbitrary lines, and thrusting me
in the midst of them. I submit to you that the type of
groupism that you are advancing in this forum is toxic
by its very nature. I hope some day you find within
yourself the charity to post something without
insulting another human being.

Cheers,

Santosh

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Santosh,
The only thing that some of us have demonstrated
concerning you is
that we don't take everything you say (or quote) at
face value.
I'm sorry, I can't offer you any help in your
newfound effort to stop
embarrassing yourself, but here's something that may
help: You know
how you're surrounded by a small group who never
ever disagree with
you, some who often rush to your defense? Well,
every time that you
feel that knee-jerk urge to vehemently disagree with
and embarrass one
of the conservatives on this forum, ask yourself
what you'd do if it
were one of your coterie instead.
Peter

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Peter D'Souza

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:18:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Peter,
I think you have already demonstrated many times
that you, Gilbert and others who share your views
are much smarter than me at everything.

The only thing that some of us have demonstrated
concerning you is that we don't take everything you
say (or quote) at face value.

Mario observes:
Once again, Santosh has it backwards. It has nothing
to do with being "smart", since Santosh probably has
the highest IQ of all Goanetters. In my never humble
opinion the high IQ is part of the problem because it
has impressed several old and vociferous Goanetters,
and some new ones on the left wing, into humble
submission and acclaim and reticence, and, until
recently, has gotten away with the most outrageous
assertions interspersed among many valuable insights
and observations.
However, as we have seen over and over again, most
recently in the unprovoked and horrific attack on
Gilbert's professionalism and core ethics, based on a
totally false reading of what Gilbert had written and
a rush to judgement that was grossly uncalled for from
a medical professional, what we need is an attitude
adjustment and a respect for opposing views that is
totally lacking, no matter how many personal
testimonials are forthcoming from old friends on
Goanet.
His friends call him a "decent human being". It's
high time he reflected on what made them feel that
way.

[Carvalho]

Decency is like pornography. You can't really define
what it is but you know it when you see it.

selma
-----------------------------

Post by Mario Goveia
His friends call him a "decent human being". It's
high time he reflected on what made them feel that
way.

__________________________________________________
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[Santosh Helekar]

Post by Mario Goveia
However, as we have seen over and over again, most
recently in the unprovoked and horrific attack on
Gilbert's professionalism and core ethics, based on
a totally false reading of what Gilbert had written
and a rush to judgement that was grossly uncalled

for

Post by Mario Goveia
from a medical professional, what we need is an
attitude adjustment and a respect for opposing views
that is totally lacking, no matter how many personal
testimonials are forthcoming from old friends on
Goanet.

I am confident that objective and impartial people
would note that I had only pointed out the flaws in
Gilbert's post and the myths that were likely to be
propagated by it, without commenting on his
professionalism or ethics. Critiquing of the writings
and opinions of peers and colleagues is a standard
practice in medical and scientific fields.

If anybody's professionalism was questioned, it was
done right in that post, wherein reference was made to
a pseudo-scientist who ignores grandmother's kanneo,
and in a subsequent post to a fool with whom one
should not argue. My professionalism as well as ethics
as a human being are now ironically being questioned
in the above post by a man who has never demonstrated
an attitude of adjustment and a respect for opposing
views. What is even more remarkable is, others are
being exhorted to rethink whether I am a decent human
being or not based solely on the biased testimony and
personal opinion of a man who has implied in the past
that I am a pig. What gall!

I am sorry, but there is something very offensive
about being lectured by someone who has never
practiced what he is preaching i.e. showing an
attitude of adjustment and a respect for opposing
views. What is worse, is that Goveia has never shown
respect for the opponent, himself/herself, let alone
his/her views. The response to this post of mine would
very likely vindicate my view about this man. I only
hope that that response does not involve the use of
obscene words such as p*ssing and pig.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Mervyn Lobo]

Post by Santosh Helekar
My professionalism as well as ethics
as a human being are now ironically being questioned
in the above post by a man who has never
demonstrated
an attitude of adjustment and a respect for opposing
views. What is even more remarkable is, others are
being exhorted to rethink whether I am a decent
human being or not based solely on the biased
testimony and personal opinion of a man who has
implied in the past that I am a pig. What gall!

Santosh,
You have nothing to worry about since Mario Goveia has
established a, er, reputation here on Goanet.
While most people describe themselves as a lady or
gentleman, Mario described himself as a barbarian.
If that was not bad enough, he went on to call himself
a dummy too.

In the twelve years I have been on Goanet, only one
person has used the name of Jesus Christ to cuss. That
person is the very same Mario Goveia.

Post by Santosh Helekar
What is worse, is that Goveia has never shown
respect for the opponent, himself/herself, let alone
his/her views.

As shown above, Mario has no respect for himself, let
alone anyone else here. Unfortunately, he is not aware
of this.

Mervyn3.0


__________________________________________________
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[Peter D'Souza]

Post by Santosh Helekar
Peter,
Have you ever considered the possibility that you
might be wrong?

Santosh,

The record will show that I have, on several occasions admitted that I
was wrong. In fact, it's been as clear as "You're right and I'm
wrong", a statement once directed to you. That should answer your
question.

Post by Santosh Helekar
From my standpoint, if you have
revealed anything in this forum, it is that you have
developed an antipathy towards me.

I have said this before (in different words), and I will say it again:
I resent the way you instinctively put down people who have had
disagreements in debates with you. Just ask Joe Vaz, Chris Vaz, and
Mario Goveia. Those who heap praise upon you are usually exempt from
your self-righteous judgements, whether they be vicious gossips or
make malicious remarks about those who disagree with you. (The latest
comes from a fellow who suggests that I "hate folks with Hindu names".
No proof required? Had I suggested that about somebody else, you might
have spoken up and talked about me being abusive, but now you remain
silent.) So when you talk about antipathy, think about all the insults
that you silently condone.

Post by Santosh Helekar
I also know from
earlier experience, that you are fighting your own
imaginary battles between liberals and conservatives
divided along some arbitrary lines, and thrusting me
in the midst of them.

[If you choose to respond to this paragraph, please start a new thread.]
Like many folks here, I enjoy good debate. In any argument there must
be at least two sides. To narrow down the essence of any argument one
must define a premise, often a set of premises. This inadvertently
places the two parties on different sides of an imaginary line. It so
happens that social and cultural issues are almost always defined in
stark terms. And by most common definitions you fit clearly on the one
side of any argument. It is called the liberal side. There is nothing
arbitrary about it. I'm surprised that you've observed the dynamics of
the last two elections in America and still declare that it's
arbitrary.

Post by Santosh Helekar
I submit to you that the type of
groupism that you are advancing in this forum is toxic
by its very nature.

This is nonsense; however, if I receive e-mails either on this list or
off-list telling me that I am advancing toxic groupism, I will cease
making comments. You ought to know that I discuss issues--instead of
people--much more than some of your admirers do. You also know that I
have spent much time researching issues in debates with you. (Quite an
effort for a fellow who is not academicaly inclined, if I may say so
myself!)

Post by Santosh Helekar
I hope some day you find within
yourself the charity to post something without
insulting another human being.

Ironically, in the digest version of GN that I receive, the post
listed just before this post of yours was one from me responding to
Ruth de Souza's excellent post concerning gambling. You won't find me
insulting another human being in that post. It is uncharitable and
unfair to suggest that I do so in every post. I have discussed Goa's
Linux user group, pangolins and sea turtles in Goa, and much more, all
without insults.

Lastly, I wish to apologise for calling you SanTosh (and similarly
derived names). I stopped doing that a few days ago.

Sincerely,

Peter D'Souza

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Carvalho

Post by Mario Goveia
His friends call him a "decent human being". It's
high time he reflected on what made them feel that
way.

Decency is like pornography. You can't really define
what it is but you know it when you see it.

Mario responds:
I wonder what Selma saw in the following:
"However, as we have seen over and over again, most
recently in the unprovoked and horrific attack on
Gilbert's professionalism and core ethics, based on a
totally false reading of what Gilbert had written and
a rush to judgement that was grossly uncalled for from
a medical professional, what we need is an attitude
adjustment and a respect for opposing views that is
totally lacking, no matter how many personal
testimonials are forthcoming from old friends on
Goanet."

[Santosh Helekar]

Peter,

I appreciate the following post from you. It is frank,
direct and devoid of any unnecessary put downs. I
accept your apology, and I apologize in return for all
the negative things that I have most certainly said
about you.

However, there are a couple of things that I would
quibble about in your post. They both tie into the
matter that you have claimed you resent about me.
Whether I take up a harsh adversarial position against
somebody does not depend on my disagreement with them,
as you suggest. It depends on a strong need to defend
myself against a very personal accusation or affront.
The people who receive favorable treatment from me
have not found themselves in this type of a situation.


Each of us is biased in one way or another. My bias is
not ideology or mutual agreement, but basic human
interactions. Just as an example, Frederick and I have
some strong disagreements. But I have never tried to
put him down nor said anything negative about him. The
same is true with Viviana.

In any case, I am happy that you spoke your mind, and
I hope we can now turn a new page.

Cheers,

Santosh

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Santosh,
The record will show that I have, on several
occasions admitted that I
was wrong. In fact, it's been as clear as "You're
right and I'm
wrong", a statement once directed to you. That
should answer your
question.

[Mervyn Lobo]

Post by Peter D'Souza
This is nonsense; however, if I receive e-mails
either on this list or off-list telling me that I
am advancing toxic groupism, I will cease
making comments.

Peter,
You are advancing toxic groupism.

Post by Peter D'Souza
Lastly, I wish to apologise for calling you SanTosh
(and similarly
derived names). I stopped doing that a few days ago.

Hallelujah!!!
I am glad you have seen the light!

For the past year you have resorted to behaving like a
little child, calling people names. In spite of
several attempts by Santosh to show you how you were
behaving, you refused to open your eyes.

Having said all this, I welcome the new you. I hope
your re-birth brings joy to all.

Mervyn3.0
PS. I would be a bonus if you could get the other
folks here who use toxic language to change too.


__________________________________________________
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[Mario Goveia]

Post by Mario Goveia
However, as we have seen over and over again, most
recently in the unprovoked and horrific attack on
Gilbert's professionalism and core ethics, based
on a totally false reading of what Gilbert had
written and a rush to judgement that was grossly >

uncalled for from a medical professional, what we

Post by Mario Goveia
need is an attitude adjustment and a respect for
opposing views that is totally lacking, no matter
how many personal testimonials are forthcoming
from old friends on Goanet.

I am confident that objective and impartial people
would note that I had only pointed out the flaws in
Gilbert's post and the myths that were likely to be
propagated by it, without commenting on his
professionalism or ethics. Critiquing of the
writings and opinions of peers and colleagues is a
standard practice in medical and scientific fields.

Mario responds:
Dear objective and impartial people,
After reading what Santosh has written above, please
click on the following URL for Santosh's initial
response to the folksy post by Gilbert, IN A
NON-MEDICAL PUBLIC FORUM, as opposed to a medical
journal, trying to explain how Goan grandmothers
kaneos can sometimes correlate with true medical
observations on cancer, while having nothing to do
with the cause.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048348.html
Gilbert is a highly experienced Board Certified
oncologist. Santosh is not. Yet, Santosh starts off
with the following vicious, mean-spirited attack:
"The post appended below propagates dangerous myths
and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this
public forum." Now, read this sentence again, slowly.
I really doubt this is how well-meaning medical
professionals start off their reviews of the writings
and opinions of their peers.
For Cecil and Selma, who apparently missed it, their
good friend is accusing an oncologist of propagating
"...dangerous myths and misinformation regarding
cancer treatment in a public forum." Can there be any
worse attack on a cancer specialist's professionalism
and ethics - especially when he had done none of what
he was being accused of?
We now see Santosh trying to falsely softpeddle his
attack and twist it into a benign well-meaning
critique by a colleague. A critique would have
pointed out an inconsistency or a contradiction or
asked Gilbert to explain something in his post, which
for most of us non-physicians was crystal clear in
what it said.
Santosh later REPEATED his scurrilous attack on
Gilbert in response to a post by Kevin, who pointed
out what Gilbert had really said.
In a previous skirmish Goanetters will remember
Santosh's offensive description of ALL religious moral
codes as "fake" based on a bogus use of anecdotes that
some people violate the code from time to time!
He has now fallen back on his patented response when
backed into a corner: continue to defend the
indefensible, implicitly ask for assistance and
sympathy from his friends, try to deflect attention by
blatantly misrepresenting what happened and cast
aspersions by attacking me for questioning him and
bringing it to the attention of those in front of whom
his unprovoked attack took place.
Apparently attacking a fellow professional's motives
and ethics based on a falsehood is OK with Santosh, as
is describing all religious moral codes as "fake", but
he is curiously offended by my use of the salty
colloquialism "pissing and moaning" to describe when
someone complains about something while having no real
reason to do so.

[Carvalho]

Dear Mario,

Can you please refrain from using my name totally out
of context. Hopefully most of us outgrew this type of
attempt to form groups, in kindergarten. I enjoy the
diversity of opinion that exists on this forum, and I
respect intelligence in all its forms; conservative,
liberal, religious, atheist, nationalist or sans
borders.

You may think that you are playing to your right-wing
fan club here but the truth is many from the
right-wing quarters couldn't care less about your
brand of liberal bashing. Infact, I enjoy wonderful
repartee behind the scenes with them.

Selma
-----------------------------

Post by Mario Goveia
For Cecil and Selma, who apparently missed it, their
good friend is accusing an oncologist of propagating
"...dangerous myths and misinformation regarding
cancer treatment in a public forum."

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[Santosh Helekar]

Post by Mervyn Lobo
In the twelve years I have been on Goanet, only one
person has used the name of Jesus Christ to cuss.
That person is the very same Mario Goveia.

Hi Mervyn,

Is this true? How shameful!

Cheers,

Santosh

[Alfred de Tavares]

From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!"
<goanet at lists.goanet.org>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] More info on the Cancer Myth
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 15:47:05 -0700 (PDT)

Post by Mervyn Lobo
In the twelve years I have been on Goanet, only one
person has used the name of Jesus Christ to cuss.
That person is the very same Mario Goveia.

Hi Mervyn,
Is this true? How shameful!
Cheers,
Santosh

Mervyn, my man,

You make me curiousiest! Pray please stop the torture!!

What/how was 'cuss' cussed?

Might usefully add to Cecil's and I's vocabulary of cussissitudes!!!

Alfred

[Peter D'Souza]

Hi Santosh,

Many thanks for your note. Your apology, too, is accepted.

Sincerely,

Peter


From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>

Peter,

I appreciate the following post from you. It is frank,
direct and devoid of any unnecessary put downs. I
accept your apology, and I apologize in return for all
the negative things that I have most certainly said
about you.

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Carvalho
Dear Mario,
Can you please refrain from using my name totally
out of context.

Mario asks:
I would if I were doing so. Is it too much to ask for
you to provide us with some specific examples where I
have mentioned you out of context. I have a hard time
interpreting your typical generalities?

Post by Carvalho
You may think that you are playing to your
right-wing fan club here but the truth is many from
the right-wing quarters couldn't care less about
your brand of liberal bashing. Infact, I enjoy
wonderful repartee behind the scenes with them.

Mario responds:
I only seek to speak for myself.
Unfortunately, much as you would like to, you don't
get to speak on behalf of others, especially the
right-wingers. My information "behind the scenes"
contradicts your assertions of any such wonderful
convivial repartee.

[Gilbert Lawrence]

My post discourages the use of MAJOR cancer surgery in keeping with current standards of care in cancer. The practitioners of poor cancer care are unfortunately physicians. These are especially those who were trained more than 15 years ago and who do not necessarily keep up with the science. Like all mortals, we doctors believe what we were taught as novices. In this case, "more is better". And that will be the tendency, unless one is involved in the particular field, on a daily basis. Perhaps the budding generation of doctors, taught the latest clinical trials and recommendations from National Cancer Organizations, will change practice patterns.

In the USA, at the best cancer centers, only 15% of women with early breast cancer loose their breast (or undergo mastectomy). Yet the mastectomy rates for early breast cancer in some small hospitals in some parts of the country is 70%. In India, the mastectomy rate is high. Many women have to fight with their surgeons to have breast preservation treatment, even in major cities and big hospitals. The conceptual rationale being, women do not need their breast after 50 years of age. Breast cancer treatment is just one example.

This is a good time to remind Goenkars, who are over 50 years of age, to get their prostate and blood PSA checked in this "Prostate cancer awareness month". In USA, every year 35,000+ men die from prostate cancer - a highly curable disease if detected early. A hundred times more American men die every week from prostate cancer than US soldiers dying in Afghanistan and Iraq (combined). Prostate cancer is common cancer in Goan men.

The take home message regarding treatment for cancer patients is get familiar with treatment alternatives long before the illness strikes. And get a second opinion when one is diagnosed. One looks at alternatives when one buys a car, house, clothes. Yet we will not do so when our own life is on the line.

And cancer victims should not forget, there is good albeit preliminary data on the boost in their own immune markers with prayer, meditation, psychotherapy, relaxation techniques, family and social support, exercise, etc.

Kind Regards, GL


---- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Though Gilbert - who is, after all, a Board Certified oncologist - unfortunately used the folksy Goan kaneos, "air-exposition" baloney in this non-medical forum, [forgetting the forum also included some brilliant physicians eager to engage in some "peer-review":-))] wasn't the essence of his post the following paragraph?
"The current explanation for this (statistical significant) observation is that the surgery depresses the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery has undergone and is undergoing significant shift. From big radical cancer surgery we have turned/flipped and are now into minimal/organ-saving cancer surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that markers of the immune system are significantly suppressed after major surgery."

[Gilbert Lawrence]

My apologies to the few who found my writings making the practice of good medicine both controversial and misleading. Some had their sodanchem confusaum muree. I tried to inform Goans about the current standard of cancer care without demagoging the facts. Is this not, what a bulletin board is meant to do?

I notice quite a few doctors were in the forefront in their attacks on religion. Yet when it comes to abuses in medicine, they are silent. Or they may voice concern about "confusing Goan readers" by alerting them about poor medical practices.

It was interesting to see Kevin corroborate with his readings of the immune system "stimulated via a multitude of modalities like
meditation and prayer". Now instead of maligning yesterday's mauxis for their kaneo, why do not today's xapais provide explanations of today's observations? Or would we have to go to the Xapotam web site for that?
Kind Regards, GL

------------Kevin Saldanha "saligao at allstream.net" <saligao at allstream.net>

Both you and Jose appear to have missed the gist of Gilbert's post.

The influence of the immune system in self-healing is evident in many studies and it can be stimulated via a multitude of modalities like meditation and prayer.

[Santosh Helekar]

Kevin Saldanha "saligao at allstream.net"
<saligao at allstream.net>

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Both you and Jose appear to have missed the gist of
Gilbert's post.

Hi Kevin,

Sorry, I don't think so. That post was under the
Science and Religion thread. It made the following
unsupported and frivolous claims, and I paraphrase
(Please see the original post again):

1. A modern scientific experiment in mice has shown
that an old grandmother's kaannee about cancer surgery
causing a cancer to spread was accurate.

2.Only a pseudo-scientist would ignore the
observations from grandmother's kaanneo.

3. When doctors do not know what is going on, they
call it "the immune system", instead of calling it the
soul, inner strength, God within, etc. But for a
supurlo Goenkar like Gilbert there is no difference
between these terms.

4. People all over the world, over the last 5000
years, had similar perspectives on this issue as
doctors today.

5. Gilbert has seen quite a few Goans get ill due to
disregard of grandmother's kaanneo.

6. Gilbert has provided the scientific basis of some
Goan myths and grandmother's kaanneo in his book on
Goa.

I hope you get the correct gist of his post.

Please read the latest review articles to find out
about the effects of surgical stress on the immune
system and the role of aggressive cancer surgery in
different types of cancer, e.g. in ovarian cancer.
Also, I am sure you know that a good book on modern
immunology would tell you how much knowledge about the
immune system at the molecular, cellular and systems
level, has accumulated just over the last 10 years.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Santosh Helekar]

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I notice quite a few doctors were in the forefront
in their attacks on religion. Yet when it comes to
abuses in medicine, they are silent. Or they may
voice concern about "confusing Goan readers" by
alerting them about poor medical practices.

In my post entitled "Myths and Misinformation
regarding
Cancer", rather than remaining silent, I provided an
example of an abuse in medicine. I showed how modern
medical facts were distorted and misrepresented in a
public forum under a thread entitled "Science as
Religion / response to Fred". I hope doctors, as well
as non-doctors, continue to expose such abuses in
medicine.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Alfred de Tavares]

Now instead of maligning yesterday's mauxis for their kaneo, why do not
today's xapais provide explanations of today's observations? Or would we
have to go to the Xapotam web site for that?

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Kind Regards, GL

GL,

Should'nt it be "another kani"

Zaito kaneo

Ek kani

Konknichea mogan,
AT

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Santosh Helekar
Sorry, I don't think so. That post was under the
Science and Religion thread. It made the following
unsupported and frivolous claims, and I paraphrase
1. A modern scientific experiment in mice has shown
that an old grandmother's kaannee about cancer
surgery causing a cancer to spread was accurate.

Mario observes:
To begin with Gilbert is a Board Certified cancer
specialist, Santosh is not.
What difference does it make if Gilbert's post was in
some "Science and Religion" thread?
Santosh's assertion above is completely false. It is
arrived at by taking Gilbert's post completely out of
context and perspective as anyone can see by reading
the original post in the URL
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048340.html
In a deliberate attempt to twist Gilbert's post,
Santosh has ignored the key paragraph in Gilbert's
post which is as follows:
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.

Post by Santosh Helekar
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned/flipped

and are now into minimal/organ-saving cancer surgery.
Laboratory studies on humans show that markers of the
immune system are significantly suppressed after major
surgery."
The gist of Gilbert's post was that what seemed to the
grandmothers to be caused by exposition to air [the
spread of cancer], was actually being caused by a
suppression of the immune system. However, the
grandmothers had no way of knowing this, leading to
their kaneos.

[Gilbert Lawrence]

Hi Mario,

I beg your indulgence to switch the title of the thread "Allowing Others To Walk Their Paths" to the more appropriate "Another Kaneo .. or is it .. Hot Air?"
Compliments for your sharp observations, which you have outlined below.
You should tutor some our goanet "research scientists" to interpret correctly what to most is plainly observed.

These are the same guys that write pious posts and claim:
Me? Distort others? Not on my word of honor! ....
Or "Moderators please have the gust to censor me for such behavior."

Kind Regards, GL

------------ Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
For example, right after posting the seemingly conciliatory comments, this same Kevin could not resist the temptation to post:
a) "This does not stop the faith healers or other religious leaders from accepting donations in return for (ineffective) prayers."
b) "Interestingly, prayer had a positive effect on the rate of immaculate conceptions;-)"
What makes this even more interesting is that Kevin, who is a vetenarian, is commenting on a facetious post on Goan kaneos as they relate to cancer by Gilbert, who is a Board Certified oncologist.
Kevin joined Santosh and Jose, who are not trained oncologists either. Santosh even claimed in his response to Gilbert, "The post appended below propagates dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this public forum.".
However, what Kevin seems to have understood before descending into ridicule, which Santosh and Jose seem to have missed, intentionally or intentionally, is the following key and serious paragraph in Gilbert's otherwise light-hearted post, which was as follows:
"The current explanation for this (statistical significant) observation is that the surgery depresses the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery has undergone and is undergoing significant shift. From big radical cancer surgery we have turned/flipped and are now into minimal/organ-saving cancer surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that markers of the immune system are significantly suppressed after major surgery."
In other words, what the Goan grandmothers thought was being caused by exposition to air, was in fact, being caused by a depression of the immune system.
For those who understood what Gilbert was trying to say, there was no propagation of "...dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this public forum."

This post from DailyOM is pertinent to the ongoing jousting on GoaNet. If more members understood that this forum is primarily for expressing their views and not necessarily for brow-beating opponents, we can have a much more enjoyable and productive dialogue.

[Gilbert Lawrence]

Santosh, as usual, keeps distorting other peoples' writings. He is so good at it, that I wonder if he does the same in his daily work?
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Kevin .

Both you (Santosh) and Jose appear to have missed the gist of Gilbert's post.

GL: Absolutely correct!

---------- Santosh


1. A modern scientific experiment in mice has shown that an old grandmother's kaannee about cancer surgery causing a cancer to spread was accurate.

GL: Mistake!
The mice experiment caused the cancer cells to grow more rapidly. In the experiment, the cancer had already spread prior to the surgery. (Please see the original post again). The spread was one of the first steps prior to the real test (separation of mice) started. Santosh's above statement clearly demonstrates his difficulty / inability to observe and interpret what is clearly written and plainly seen by most.

2. Only a pseudo-scientist would ignore the observations from grandmother's kaanneo.

GL: Thankfully Accurate.

3. When doctors do not know what is going on, they call it "the immune system", instead of calling it the soul, inner strength, God within, etc. But for a supurlo Goenkar like Gilbert there is no difference between these terms.

GL: Total fabrication by Santosh

4. People all over the world, over the last 5000 years, had similar perspectives on this issue as doctors today.

GL: I do not know what "perspectives" Santosh is referring to! Yet again, it is a total distortion of my writings.

5. Gilbert has seen quite a few Goans get ill due to disregard of grandmother's kaanneo.

GL: Accurate.

6. Gilbert has provided the scientific basis of some Goan myths and grandmother's kaanneo in his book on Goa.

GL: Thankfully accurate.

I hope you get the correct gist of his post.

GL: Santosh had done it again with half truths and half distortions. He does what he accuses others of: Distortion of him and his writings.
I would like to follow the dictum. "Do not argue with a fool. They drag you down to their level and overpower you with experience."

The non-medicos who have read my posts have publicly and privately written to me stating they followed my writings and thanked me for the useful information. Not surprisingly, I will continue to have to work on the doctors. :=)) This is my last post on this thread.

Regards, GL

[Santosh Helekar]

Frederick,

That is a horribly written article. Many of the
statements contained in it are demonstrably false.
Many others, especially the quotes, are simply out of
date by more than 30 years. The excessive use of
neologisms betrays the vacuousness of some of the
claims made. As far as whether one or both of the
authors are quacks or not, would depend on how
strongly they deny well-established facts such as the
observation that the HIV virus causes AIDS, and why.

Cheers,

Santosh

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"

Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Dr Santosh's unabashed faith in the miracles and
potential of science,
once again, underlines that he treats it like a
religion.
I came across the work of Dr Manu Kothari and Dr
Lopa Mehta through the OIBS at Mapusa. Please tell
me if they are "quacks" or just people willing to
question the dominant paradigm of corporate-dominated
and defined medicine?

[Gilbert Lawrence]

Hi Fred,

I attempted to bring to Goanet readers some of the advances and pitfalls in practice patterns in my filed of expertise. I appreciate the thanks I recieved both publicly and privately from the goanetters. I wished other specialists would have used this opporutnity to undertake a similar expose in their own field, to alert Goans about changes occuring.

Yet as you point out, there are a few indiviudals who are experts in everybody else's profession. Perhaps their field has not had any new develpements to report or changes in practice patterns. Thus, they have ample time to (superficially) keep up with other fields or at least opine about them. If everything fails, a quick net search will always unearth something to demagogue some aspect of the post. In Konkanni, is such writing called "fuggdi"?

I am off to a well deserved vacation / cruise with my good wife.
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Frederick \"FN\" Noronha" <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>

I think Gilbert did an interesting expose -- from a field of his specialisation -- to explain how we can be caught in a time-warp and still feel very sanctimonous about it....

It might not be unrealistic to say that "modern medicine" is, at best, a changing field of knowledge. One that is limited by current-day knowledge, biases, and even the interests of big pharma and other lobbies.

Goanet is indeed a great place. Neurospecialists tell oncologists how they should do their work. Paediatricians lecture to historians. And we have medical ethics being applied to decide what's wrong and right in the field of journalism. We just perhaps need to start being critical of our own fields, and their flaws. For instance, I would be the first to say journalism (forget about concepts like "precision journalism") is still very much of a hit-and-miss activity, one that is filled with flaws and human biases, and is definitely not as neutral and objective as made out to be by classic text-book scenarios.
I notice quite a few doctors were in the forefront in their attacks on religion. Yet when it comes to abuses in medicine, they are silent. Or like you, they may voice concern about "confusing Goan readers" with alerting them about poor medical practices.

[Mervyn Lobo]

"Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"

Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Dr Santosh's unabashed faith in the miracles and
potential of science, once again, underlines that
he treats it like a religion.

Fred,
You are making no sense at all.

I think you should stick to telling us what you know
and let Santosh tells us what he does. Santosh has
never put words in your mouth. I wonder why you have
taken it upon yourself to put words in his.

Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
I came across the work of Dr Manu Kothari and Dr
Lopa Mehta through
the OIBS at Mapusa. Please tell me if they are
"quacks" or just people willing to question the
dominant paradigm of corporate-dominated and
defined medicine?

Here in N. America most Goans have invested their
savings in mutual funds. Most of these mutual funds
include the medial colossals like Bayer, Bristol
Meyers Squid, etc. New drugs from these companies are
often block buster sellers making the shareholders
very rich.

The drugs are block busters because they work well. If
you were in N. America I would have advised you too to
invest in these corporate dominated medicines.

Mervyn3.0



__________________________________________________
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[Santosh Helekar]

I am sorry that Gilbert thinks that I have distorted
one of his claims, made a mistake on one, and
fabricated another one. Because of this dispute he has
gone on and said several negative things about me, and
implied that I am a fool. But I am grateful to him to
have at least been generous enough to concede that I
have accurately paraphrased three of his six claims.

However, I would really like to understand what
exactly it is that he was trying to say in the
statements that he disputes. Therefore, I would like
to actually quote these disputed statements from his
post. And I humbly ask him to clarify them, and answer
a few of questions about them.

Post by Santosh Helekar
1. A modern scientific experiment in mice has shown
that an old grandmother's kaannee about cancer
surgery causing a cancer to spread was accurate.
GL: Mistake!

Here is Gilbert's original quote that I am referring
to:

"Many may have heared in Goa, and in fact all over the
world, the belief that when you operate on cancer,
(open the patient), it makes the cancer spread and
the outcome worse. The explanation was, if / when air
gets to the cancer, the tumor became aggressive. So
this is believed to be a Goan Kaneo.

A few years ago, an experiment was undertaken where a
batch of mice were injected with an identical quantity
(volume) of aggressive cancer cells. As expected the
mice developed multiple tumors (metastasis) in the
lung. Half the mice were then operated to remove
tumors from just one lung. The other half of the batch
of mice did not undergo any surgery. The mice were
then followed. The mice with their tumor (partly)
removed died much earlier than the group where the
tumors in both lungs were allowed to grow
uninterrupted. Thus the grandmother's observation was
accurate."
..............Gilbert Lawrence

(Please see his original post at
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048340.html)

Gilbert has now given another explanation quoted

Post by Santosh Helekar
The mice experiment caused the cancer cells to grow
more rapidly. In the experiment, the cancer had
already spread prior to the surgery. (Please see
the original post again). The spread was one of the
first steps prior to the real test (separation of
mice) started. Santosh's above statement clearly
demonstrates his difficulty / inability to observe
and interpret what is clearly written and plainly
seen by most.

The questions I have are:

1. Can Gilbert please provide me with the
bibliographic reference to the original research paper
that described this experiment?

2. What did he mean by the following assertions:

a) "Many may have heared in Goa, and in fact all over
the world, the belief that when you operate on cancer,
(open the patient), it makes the cancer spread and
the outcome worse."

b) "Thus the grandmother's observation was accurate."

Post by Santosh Helekar
3. When doctors do not know what is going on, they
call it "the immune system", instead of calling it
the soul, inner strength, God within, etc. But for a
supurlo Goenkar like Gilbert there is no difference
between these terms.
GL: Total fabrication by Santosh

Here is Gilbert's original quote to which I referred:

"Now one can point to the fact that when doctors do
not know what is going on, they call it "the immune
system" instead of: inner strength / Mind / soul / Id
/ God within / self awareness/ inner essence / love /
sentience / spirit / self / ego / emotion / pathos /
carnal / atma / jiva / essence / Ego / Ekam / Ghost /
Vitalism. Surely philosophers and theologians can
make things complicated. But, for me a supurlo
Goenkar, all these is the "same difference". :=))"
....................Gilbert Lawrence

(Please see his original post at
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048340.html)

Now my question to Gilbert is:

1. Which part of my paraphrased statement is a total
fabrication?

Post by Santosh Helekar
4. People all over the world, over the last 5000
years, had similar perspectives on this issue as
doctors today.
GL: I do not know what "perspectives" Santosh is
referring to! Yet again, it is a total distortion
of my writings.

Here is Gilbert's original quote to which I referred:

"Now one can point to the fact that when doctors do
not know what is going on, they call it "the immune
system" instead of: inner strength / Mind / soul / Id
/ God within / self awareness/ inner essence / love /
sentience / spirit / self / ego / emotion / pathos /
carnal / atma / jiva / essence / Ego / Ekam / Ghost /
Vitalism. Surely philosophers and theologians can
make things complicated. But, for me a supurlo
Goenkar, all these is the "same difference". :=))
This long list is to show that people from all over
the world, over the last 5,000 years have had similar
perspectives."

Now the question I have for Gilbert is:

1. What "perspectives" was he referring to in the
above quote, and what part of my paraphrased statement
is a distortion?

I hope Gilbert answers my questions.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Santosh Helekar]

I think Gilbert is right about his description of the
surgical treatment of ovarian cancer, as he should be.
The only minor point of contention might be his
rejection of the term "aggressive". The nice thing
about modern medical research, or rather, scientific
research in general, is that the latest advances get
published in high quality peer-reviewed journals that
physicians, medical scientists, as well as interested
and well-informed patients and lay people can read.
For example, those who are interested in finding out
about improved survival due to aggressive surgery in
advanced ovarian cancer, can read the following
research paper published in January of this year in
the journal "Obstetrics and Gynecology":

"Aletti GD, Dowdy SC, Gostout BS, Jones MB, Stanhope
CR, Wilson TO, Podratz KC, and Cliby WA (2006)

Aggressive surgical effort and improved survival in
advanced-stage ovarian cancer, Obstet Gynecol,
107(1):77-85."

Those who want to have a copy of this paper are
welcome to email me. I am sure Gilbert would also be
happy to provide you a copy of it.

Cheers,

Santosh

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Updated!
To borrow from Mario, ......... I do not know
whether to laugh or to cry?
The surgery for ovarian cancer is to stage and to
"debulk" the disease. This is NOT radical surgery
to remove "all possible" tumor extension through the
abdomen as was done in the past with "aggressive
cancer surgery". In current medical practice, that
role (to eradicate possible tumor extension) is
accomplished with chemotherapy. This combined
approach achieves better results with less
side-effects and mortality.
Fred, as you and others may know, there is only so
much knowledge one can get and understand from a
net-search.
Kind Regards, GL

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Compliments for your sharp observations, which you
have outlined below.
You should tutor some our goanet "research
scientists" to interpret correctly what to most is
plainly observed.

Mario observes:
Gilbert,
I did not have to "interpret" anything you wrote. I
was all there in plain English for anyone who was
interested in critically reading your folksy
explanation of how grandmas kaneos develop.
What shocked me were the viciously deliberate
misrepresentations by a couple of medically trained
Goanetters. If they wanted to clarify what you had
written they could have asked you some pointed
questions. Instead, they made stentorian
mean-spirited claims in this public forum that you
were propagating dangerous myths and misinformation
regarding cancer treatment, then insisted on repeating
the calumny.
It begged a couple of other questions as well. For
example, a) why would you, as a Board Certified
oncologist who had taken the Hippocratic Oath
propagate myths and misinformation about cancer
treatment? and b) why would they, experienced in
medical research, deliberately misrepresent your
comments, when others, using simple English,
understood exactly what you were saying?

[Santosh Helekar]

It turns out that the American Cancer Society had
conducted a survey on one of the cancer myths that was
posted in this forum. They found that 41% of the
people in America believe in this myth. Here is the
relevant info about it from the American Cancer
Society:

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_11_1_Myths_About_Surgery_for_Cancer.asp

"Does Surgery Cause Cancer to Spread?

By Ted Gansler, MD, MBA; Director of Medical Content,
American Cancer Society

True or False?: Treating cancer with surgery causes it
to spread throughout the body.

Respondents Who Agreed: 41%

Origin: This myth may have started many years ago when
most patients already had very advanced cancers by the
time they sought medical care. Doctors may have
operated to find the cause of a patient's illness and
found an advanced cancer that could not be treated
successfully. When the patient died a short time
later, observers thought the surgery caused the cells
to spread and killed the patient.

Reality: Specialists in cancer surgery know how to
safely take biopsy samples and to remove tumors
without causing spread of the cancer. In many cases,
surgery is an essential part of the cancer treatment
plan.

For a few types of cancer, surgeons take extra
precautions to prevent any chance of the cancer
spreading. For example, in testicular cancer the
entire testicle containing the cancer is removed, so
no cancer cells are dislodged. Doctors who perform
surgery for cancer are specialists and are highly
trained in the intricacies of cancer and anatomy.

Learning about treatment options such as surgery is
very helpful and can be reassuring to patients going
through the cancer experience."

Cheers,

Santosh

[Peter D'Souza]

Is there anyone besides Santosh Helekar who has completely missed the
point of Gilbert's post?

Peter
---

Subject: Re: [Goanet] More info on the Cancer Myth
It turns out that the American Cancer Society had
conducted a survey on one of the cancer myths that was
posted in this forum. They found that 41% of the
people in America believe in this myth. Here is the
relevant info about it from the American Cancer
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_11_1_Myths_About_Surgery_for_Cancer.asp
"Does Surgery Cause Cancer to Spread?

[Santosh Helekar]

Post by Peter D'Souza
Is there anyone besides Santosh Helekar who has
completely missed the point of Gilbert's post?

Peter,

I think you have already demonstrated many times that
you, Gilbert and others who share your views are much
smarter than me at everything. I would therefore
humbly ask you to stop embarrassing me any further on
Goanet. Can you be so kind as to honor this humble
request of mine?

Cheers,

Santosh

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
While we are discussing this issue, may I narrate
some sad news?
A college, Umesh Mahambre, the chief reporter of the
Navhind Times, was diagnosed with some cysts, and
referred to the Tata Memorial. Even before the
biopsy could be conducted, he died. The funeral is
today. Mahambre was 48.

Mario observes:
Fred,
Condolences to the Mahambre family and Umesh's
friends.
Chances are that Umesh's condition had spread beyond
the ability of medical science to contain this killer
disease which mostly ambushes one without any apparent
reason - though some like the smoking and environment
related cancers have a cause and effect, though not on
everyone so exposed.
The trick to dealing with cancer is early recognition.
Then, some cancers are far worse than others and
harder to deal with because of their location and/or
virulence. I was fortunate. While I had a rare and
virulent form, it was outside the torso and/or the
cranium, and they were able to dig it all out and then
nuke my whole body with chemo and radiation because I
had told the oncologists to be as aggressive as they
knew how.
It was lousy while it lasted but I survived to become
the bane of forum moderators and religion-bashers and
anti-Americans on various internet forums:-))
It also changed my outlook. I used to shy away from
people who were dying, or find excuses to avoid seeing
them. Now I reach out to them and follow their lead
and encourage them to fight to the death and cope with
the treatment they need to endure.

[Peter D'Souza]

Santosh,

The only thing that some of us have demonstrated concerning you is
that we don't take everything you say (or quote) at face value.

I'm sorry, I can't offer you any help in your newfound effort to stop
embarrassing yourself, but here's something that may help: You know
how you're surrounded by a small group who never ever disagree with
you, some who often rush to your defense? Well, every time that you
feel that knee-jerk urge to vehemently disagree with and embarrass one
of the conservatives on this forum, ask yourself what you'd do if it
were one of your coterie instead.

Peter
--

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:18:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Peter,
I think you have already demonstrated many times that
you, Gilbert and others who share your views are much
smarter than me at everything. I would therefore
humbly ask you to stop embarrassing me any further on
Goanet. Can you be so kind as to honor this humble
request of mine?
Cheers,
Santosh

[Santosh Helekar]

Peter,

Have you ever considered the possibility that you
might be wrong? From my standpoint, if you have
revealed anything in this forum, it is that you have
developed an antipathy towards me. I also know from
earlier experience, that you are fighting your own
imaginary battles between liberals and conservatives
divided along some arbitrary lines, and thrusting me
in the midst of them. I submit to you that the type of
groupism that you are advancing in this forum is toxic
by its very nature. I hope some day you find within
yourself the charity to post something without
insulting another human being.

Cheers,

Santosh

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Santosh,
The only thing that some of us have demonstrated
concerning you is
that we don't take everything you say (or quote) at
face value.
I'm sorry, I can't offer you any help in your
newfound effort to stop
embarrassing yourself, but here's something that may
help: You know
how you're surrounded by a small group who never
ever disagree with
you, some who often rush to your defense? Well,
every time that you
feel that knee-jerk urge to vehemently disagree with
and embarrass one
of the conservatives on this forum, ask yourself
what you'd do if it
were one of your coterie instead.
Peter

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Peter D'Souza

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:18:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Peter,
I think you have already demonstrated many times
that you, Gilbert and others who share your views
are much smarter than me at everything.

The only thing that some of us have demonstrated
concerning you is that we don't take everything you
say (or quote) at face value.

Mario observes:
Once again, Santosh has it backwards. It has nothing
to do with being "smart", since Santosh probably has
the highest IQ of all Goanetters. In my never humble
opinion the high IQ is part of the problem because it
has impressed several old and vociferous Goanetters,
and some new ones on the left wing, into humble
submission and acclaim and reticence, and, until
recently, has gotten away with the most outrageous
assertions interspersed among many valuable insights
and observations.
However, as we have seen over and over again, most
recently in the unprovoked and horrific attack on
Gilbert's professionalism and core ethics, based on a
totally false reading of what Gilbert had written and
a rush to judgement that was grossly uncalled for from
a medical professional, what we need is an attitude
adjustment and a respect for opposing views that is
totally lacking, no matter how many personal
testimonials are forthcoming from old friends on
Goanet.
His friends call him a "decent human being". It's
high time he reflected on what made them feel that
way.

[Carvalho]

Decency is like pornography. You can't really define
what it is but you know it when you see it.

selma
-----------------------------

Post by Mario Goveia
His friends call him a "decent human being". It's
high time he reflected on what made them feel that
way.

__________________________________________________
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[Santosh Helekar]

Post by Mario Goveia
However, as we have seen over and over again, most
recently in the unprovoked and horrific attack on
Gilbert's professionalism and core ethics, based on
a totally false reading of what Gilbert had written
and a rush to judgement that was grossly uncalled

for

Post by Mario Goveia
from a medical professional, what we need is an
attitude adjustment and a respect for opposing views
that is totally lacking, no matter how many personal
testimonials are forthcoming from old friends on
Goanet.

I am confident that objective and impartial people
would note that I had only pointed out the flaws in
Gilbert's post and the myths that were likely to be
propagated by it, without commenting on his
professionalism or ethics. Critiquing of the writings
and opinions of peers and colleagues is a standard
practice in medical and scientific fields.

If anybody's professionalism was questioned, it was
done right in that post, wherein reference was made to
a pseudo-scientist who ignores grandmother's kanneo,
and in a subsequent post to a fool with whom one
should not argue. My professionalism as well as ethics
as a human being are now ironically being questioned
in the above post by a man who has never demonstrated
an attitude of adjustment and a respect for opposing
views. What is even more remarkable is, others are
being exhorted to rethink whether I am a decent human
being or not based solely on the biased testimony and
personal opinion of a man who has implied in the past
that I am a pig. What gall!

I am sorry, but there is something very offensive
about being lectured by someone who has never
practiced what he is preaching i.e. showing an
attitude of adjustment and a respect for opposing
views. What is worse, is that Goveia has never shown
respect for the opponent, himself/herself, let alone
his/her views. The response to this post of mine would
very likely vindicate my view about this man. I only
hope that that response does not involve the use of
obscene words such as p*ssing and pig.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Mervyn Lobo]

Post by Santosh Helekar
My professionalism as well as ethics
as a human being are now ironically being questioned
in the above post by a man who has never
demonstrated
an attitude of adjustment and a respect for opposing
views. What is even more remarkable is, others are
being exhorted to rethink whether I am a decent
human being or not based solely on the biased
testimony and personal opinion of a man who has
implied in the past that I am a pig. What gall!

Santosh,
You have nothing to worry about since Mario Goveia has
established a, er, reputation here on Goanet.
While most people describe themselves as a lady or
gentleman, Mario described himself as a barbarian.
If that was not bad enough, he went on to call himself
a dummy too.

In the twelve years I have been on Goanet, only one
person has used the name of Jesus Christ to cuss. That
person is the very same Mario Goveia.

Post by Santosh Helekar
What is worse, is that Goveia has never shown
respect for the opponent, himself/herself, let alone
his/her views.

As shown above, Mario has no respect for himself, let
alone anyone else here. Unfortunately, he is not aware
of this.

Mervyn3.0


__________________________________________________
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[Peter D'Souza]

Post by Santosh Helekar
Peter,
Have you ever considered the possibility that you
might be wrong?

Santosh,

The record will show that I have, on several occasions admitted that I
was wrong. In fact, it's been as clear as "You're right and I'm
wrong", a statement once directed to you. That should answer your
question.

Post by Santosh Helekar
From my standpoint, if you have
revealed anything in this forum, it is that you have
developed an antipathy towards me.

I have said this before (in different words), and I will say it again:
I resent the way you instinctively put down people who have had
disagreements in debates with you. Just ask Joe Vaz, Chris Vaz, and
Mario Goveia. Those who heap praise upon you are usually exempt from
your self-righteous judgements, whether they be vicious gossips or
make malicious remarks about those who disagree with you. (The latest
comes from a fellow who suggests that I "hate folks with Hindu names".
No proof required? Had I suggested that about somebody else, you might
have spoken up and talked about me being abusive, but now you remain
silent.) So when you talk about antipathy, think about all the insults
that you silently condone.

Post by Santosh Helekar
I also know from
earlier experience, that you are fighting your own
imaginary battles between liberals and conservatives
divided along some arbitrary lines, and thrusting me
in the midst of them.

[If you choose to respond to this paragraph, please start a new thread.]
Like many folks here, I enjoy good debate. In any argument there must
be at least two sides. To narrow down the essence of any argument one
must define a premise, often a set of premises. This inadvertently
places the two parties on different sides of an imaginary line. It so
happens that social and cultural issues are almost always defined in
stark terms. And by most common definitions you fit clearly on the one
side of any argument. It is called the liberal side. There is nothing
arbitrary about it. I'm surprised that you've observed the dynamics of
the last two elections in America and still declare that it's
arbitrary.

Post by Santosh Helekar
I submit to you that the type of
groupism that you are advancing in this forum is toxic
by its very nature.

This is nonsense; however, if I receive e-mails either on this list or
off-list telling me that I am advancing toxic groupism, I will cease
making comments. You ought to know that I discuss issues--instead of
people--much more than some of your admirers do. You also know that I
have spent much time researching issues in debates with you. (Quite an
effort for a fellow who is not academicaly inclined, if I may say so
myself!)

Post by Santosh Helekar
I hope some day you find within
yourself the charity to post something without
insulting another human being.

Ironically, in the digest version of GN that I receive, the post
listed just before this post of yours was one from me responding to
Ruth de Souza's excellent post concerning gambling. You won't find me
insulting another human being in that post. It is uncharitable and
unfair to suggest that I do so in every post. I have discussed Goa's
Linux user group, pangolins and sea turtles in Goa, and much more, all
without insults.

Lastly, I wish to apologise for calling you SanTosh (and similarly
derived names). I stopped doing that a few days ago.

Sincerely,

Peter D'Souza

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Carvalho

Post by Mario Goveia
His friends call him a "decent human being". It's
high time he reflected on what made them feel that
way.

Decency is like pornography. You can't really define
what it is but you know it when you see it.

Mario responds:
I wonder what Selma saw in the following:
"However, as we have seen over and over again, most
recently in the unprovoked and horrific attack on
Gilbert's professionalism and core ethics, based on a
totally false reading of what Gilbert had written and
a rush to judgement that was grossly uncalled for from
a medical professional, what we need is an attitude
adjustment and a respect for opposing views that is
totally lacking, no matter how many personal
testimonials are forthcoming from old friends on
Goanet."

[Santosh Helekar]

Peter,

I appreciate the following post from you. It is frank,
direct and devoid of any unnecessary put downs. I
accept your apology, and I apologize in return for all
the negative things that I have most certainly said
about you.

However, there are a couple of things that I would
quibble about in your post. They both tie into the
matter that you have claimed you resent about me.
Whether I take up a harsh adversarial position against
somebody does not depend on my disagreement with them,
as you suggest. It depends on a strong need to defend
myself against a very personal accusation or affront.
The people who receive favorable treatment from me
have not found themselves in this type of a situation.


Each of us is biased in one way or another. My bias is
not ideology or mutual agreement, but basic human
interactions. Just as an example, Frederick and I have
some strong disagreements. But I have never tried to
put him down nor said anything negative about him. The
same is true with Viviana.

In any case, I am happy that you spoke your mind, and
I hope we can now turn a new page.

Cheers,

Santosh

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Santosh,
The record will show that I have, on several
occasions admitted that I
was wrong. In fact, it's been as clear as "You're
right and I'm
wrong", a statement once directed to you. That
should answer your
question.

[Mervyn Lobo]

Post by Peter D'Souza
This is nonsense; however, if I receive e-mails
either on this list or off-list telling me that I
am advancing toxic groupism, I will cease
making comments.

Peter,
You are advancing toxic groupism.

Post by Peter D'Souza
Lastly, I wish to apologise for calling you SanTosh
(and similarly
derived names). I stopped doing that a few days ago.

Hallelujah!!!
I am glad you have seen the light!

For the past year you have resorted to behaving like a
little child, calling people names. In spite of
several attempts by Santosh to show you how you were
behaving, you refused to open your eyes.

Having said all this, I welcome the new you. I hope
your re-birth brings joy to all.

Mervyn3.0
PS. I would be a bonus if you could get the other
folks here who use toxic language to change too.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Mario Goveia]

Post by Mario Goveia
However, as we have seen over and over again, most
recently in the unprovoked and horrific attack on
Gilbert's professionalism and core ethics, based
on a totally false reading of what Gilbert had
written and a rush to judgement that was grossly >

uncalled for from a medical professional, what we

Post by Mario Goveia
need is an attitude adjustment and a respect for
opposing views that is totally lacking, no matter
how many personal testimonials are forthcoming
from old friends on Goanet.

I am confident that objective and impartial people
would note that I had only pointed out the flaws in
Gilbert's post and the myths that were likely to be
propagated by it, without commenting on his
professionalism or ethics. Critiquing of the
writings and opinions of peers and colleagues is a
standard practice in medical and scientific fields.

Mario responds:
Dear objective and impartial people,
After reading what Santosh has written above, please
click on the following URL for Santosh's initial
response to the folksy post by Gilbert, IN A
NON-MEDICAL PUBLIC FORUM, as opposed to a medical
journal, trying to explain how Goan grandmothers
kaneos can sometimes correlate with true medical
observations on cancer, while having nothing to do
with the cause.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048348.html
Gilbert is a highly experienced Board Certified
oncologist. Santosh is not. Yet, Santosh starts off
with the following vicious, mean-spirited attack:
"The post appended below propagates dangerous myths
and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this
public forum." Now, read this sentence again, slowly.
I really doubt this is how well-meaning medical
professionals start off their reviews of the writings
and opinions of their peers.
For Cecil and Selma, who apparently missed it, their
good friend is accusing an oncologist of propagating
"...dangerous myths and misinformation regarding
cancer treatment in a public forum." Can there be any
worse attack on a cancer specialist's professionalism
and ethics - especially when he had done none of what
he was being accused of?
We now see Santosh trying to falsely softpeddle his
attack and twist it into a benign well-meaning
critique by a colleague. A critique would have
pointed out an inconsistency or a contradiction or
asked Gilbert to explain something in his post, which
for most of us non-physicians was crystal clear in
what it said.
Santosh later REPEATED his scurrilous attack on
Gilbert in response to a post by Kevin, who pointed
out what Gilbert had really said.
In a previous skirmish Goanetters will remember
Santosh's offensive description of ALL religious moral
codes as "fake" based on a bogus use of anecdotes that
some people violate the code from time to time!
He has now fallen back on his patented response when
backed into a corner: continue to defend the
indefensible, implicitly ask for assistance and
sympathy from his friends, try to deflect attention by
blatantly misrepresenting what happened and cast
aspersions by attacking me for questioning him and
bringing it to the attention of those in front of whom
his unprovoked attack took place.
Apparently attacking a fellow professional's motives
and ethics based on a falsehood is OK with Santosh, as
is describing all religious moral codes as "fake", but
he is curiously offended by my use of the salty
colloquialism "pissing and moaning" to describe when
someone complains about something while having no real
reason to do so.

[Carvalho]

Dear Mario,

Can you please refrain from using my name totally out
of context. Hopefully most of us outgrew this type of
attempt to form groups, in kindergarten. I enjoy the
diversity of opinion that exists on this forum, and I
respect intelligence in all its forms; conservative,
liberal, religious, atheist, nationalist or sans
borders.

You may think that you are playing to your right-wing
fan club here but the truth is many from the
right-wing quarters couldn't care less about your
brand of liberal bashing. Infact, I enjoy wonderful
repartee behind the scenes with them.

Selma
-----------------------------

Post by Mario Goveia
For Cecil and Selma, who apparently missed it, their
good friend is accusing an oncologist of propagating
"...dangerous myths and misinformation regarding
cancer treatment in a public forum."

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Santosh Helekar]

Post by Mervyn Lobo
In the twelve years I have been on Goanet, only one
person has used the name of Jesus Christ to cuss.
That person is the very same Mario Goveia.

Hi Mervyn,

Is this true? How shameful!

Cheers,

Santosh

[Alfred de Tavares]

From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!"
<goanet at lists.goanet.org>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] More info on the Cancer Myth
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 15:47:05 -0700 (PDT)

Post by Mervyn Lobo
In the twelve years I have been on Goanet, only one
person has used the name of Jesus Christ to cuss.
That person is the very same Mario Goveia.

Hi Mervyn,
Is this true? How shameful!
Cheers,
Santosh

Mervyn, my man,

You make me curiousiest! Pray please stop the torture!!

What/how was 'cuss' cussed?

Might usefully add to Cecil's and I's vocabulary of cussissitudes!!!

Alfred

[Peter D'Souza]

Hi Santosh,

Many thanks for your note. Your apology, too, is accepted.

Sincerely,

Peter


From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>

Peter,

I appreciate the following post from you. It is frank,
direct and devoid of any unnecessary put downs. I
accept your apology, and I apologize in return for all
the negative things that I have most certainly said
about you.

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Carvalho
Dear Mario,
Can you please refrain from using my name totally
out of context.

Mario asks:
I would if I were doing so. Is it too much to ask for
you to provide us with some specific examples where I
have mentioned you out of context. I have a hard time
interpreting your typical generalities?

Post by Carvalho
You may think that you are playing to your
right-wing fan club here but the truth is many from
the right-wing quarters couldn't care less about
your brand of liberal bashing. Infact, I enjoy
wonderful repartee behind the scenes with them.

Mario responds:
I only seek to speak for myself.
Unfortunately, much as you would like to, you don't
get to speak on behalf of others, especially the
right-wingers. My information "behind the scenes"
contradicts your assertions of any such wonderful
convivial repartee.

[Gilbert Lawrence]

My post discourages the use of MAJOR cancer surgery in keeping with current standards of care in cancer. The practitioners of poor cancer care are unfortunately physicians. These are especially those who were trained more than 15 years ago and who do not necessarily keep up with the science. Like all mortals, we doctors believe what we were taught as novices. In this case, "more is better". And that will be the tendency, unless one is involved in the particular field, on a daily basis. Perhaps the budding generation of doctors, taught the latest clinical trials and recommendations from National Cancer Organizations, will change practice patterns.

In the USA, at the best cancer centers, only 15% of women with early breast cancer loose their breast (or undergo mastectomy). Yet the mastectomy rates for early breast cancer in some small hospitals in some parts of the country is 70%. In India, the mastectomy rate is high. Many women have to fight with their surgeons to have breast preservation treatment, even in major cities and big hospitals. The conceptual rationale being, women do not need their breast after 50 years of age. Breast cancer treatment is just one example.

This is a good time to remind Goenkars, who are over 50 years of age, to get their prostate and blood PSA checked in this "Prostate cancer awareness month". In USA, every year 35,000+ men die from prostate cancer - a highly curable disease if detected early. A hundred times more American men die every week from prostate cancer than US soldiers dying in Afghanistan and Iraq (combined). Prostate cancer is common cancer in Goan men.

The take home message regarding treatment for cancer patients is get familiar with treatment alternatives long before the illness strikes. And get a second opinion when one is diagnosed. One looks at alternatives when one buys a car, house, clothes. Yet we will not do so when our own life is on the line.

And cancer victims should not forget, there is good albeit preliminary data on the boost in their own immune markers with prayer, meditation, psychotherapy, relaxation techniques, family and social support, exercise, etc.

Kind Regards, GL


---- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Though Gilbert - who is, after all, a Board Certified oncologist - unfortunately used the folksy Goan kaneos, "air-exposition" baloney in this non-medical forum, [forgetting the forum also included some brilliant physicians eager to engage in some "peer-review":-))] wasn't the essence of his post the following paragraph?
"The current explanation for this (statistical significant) observation is that the surgery depresses the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery has undergone and is undergoing significant shift. From big radical cancer surgery we have turned/flipped and are now into minimal/organ-saving cancer surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that markers of the immune system are significantly suppressed after major surgery."

[Gilbert Lawrence]

My apologies to the few who found my writings making the practice of good medicine both controversial and misleading. Some had their sodanchem confusaum muree. I tried to inform Goans about the current standard of cancer care without demagoging the facts. Is this not, what a bulletin board is meant to do?

I notice quite a few doctors were in the forefront in their attacks on religion. Yet when it comes to abuses in medicine, they are silent. Or they may voice concern about "confusing Goan readers" by alerting them about poor medical practices.

It was interesting to see Kevin corroborate with his readings of the immune system "stimulated via a multitude of modalities like
meditation and prayer". Now instead of maligning yesterday's mauxis for their kaneo, why do not today's xapais provide explanations of today's observations? Or would we have to go to the Xapotam web site for that?
Kind Regards, GL

------------Kevin Saldanha "saligao at allstream.net" <saligao at allstream.net>

Both you and Jose appear to have missed the gist of Gilbert's post.

The influence of the immune system in self-healing is evident in many studies and it can be stimulated via a multitude of modalities like meditation and prayer.

[Santosh Helekar]

Kevin Saldanha "saligao at allstream.net"
<saligao at allstream.net>

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Both you and Jose appear to have missed the gist of
Gilbert's post.

Hi Kevin,

Sorry, I don't think so. That post was under the
Science and Religion thread. It made the following
unsupported and frivolous claims, and I paraphrase
(Please see the original post again):

1. A modern scientific experiment in mice has shown
that an old grandmother's kaannee about cancer surgery
causing a cancer to spread was accurate.

2.Only a pseudo-scientist would ignore the
observations from grandmother's kaanneo.

3. When doctors do not know what is going on, they
call it "the immune system", instead of calling it the
soul, inner strength, God within, etc. But for a
supurlo Goenkar like Gilbert there is no difference
between these terms.

4. People all over the world, over the last 5000
years, had similar perspectives on this issue as
doctors today.

5. Gilbert has seen quite a few Goans get ill due to
disregard of grandmother's kaanneo.

6. Gilbert has provided the scientific basis of some
Goan myths and grandmother's kaanneo in his book on
Goa.

I hope you get the correct gist of his post.

Please read the latest review articles to find out
about the effects of surgical stress on the immune
system and the role of aggressive cancer surgery in
different types of cancer, e.g. in ovarian cancer.
Also, I am sure you know that a good book on modern
immunology would tell you how much knowledge about the
immune system at the molecular, cellular and systems
level, has accumulated just over the last 10 years.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Santosh Helekar]

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I notice quite a few doctors were in the forefront
in their attacks on religion. Yet when it comes to
abuses in medicine, they are silent. Or they may
voice concern about "confusing Goan readers" by
alerting them about poor medical practices.

In my post entitled "Myths and Misinformation
regarding
Cancer", rather than remaining silent, I provided an
example of an abuse in medicine. I showed how modern
medical facts were distorted and misrepresented in a
public forum under a thread entitled "Science as
Religion / response to Fred". I hope doctors, as well
as non-doctors, continue to expose such abuses in
medicine.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Alfred de Tavares]

Now instead of maligning yesterday's mauxis for their kaneo, why do not
today's xapais provide explanations of today's observations? Or would we
have to go to the Xapotam web site for that?

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Kind Regards, GL

GL,

Should'nt it be "another kani"

Zaito kaneo

Ek kani

Konknichea mogan,
AT

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Santosh Helekar
Sorry, I don't think so. That post was under the
Science and Religion thread. It made the following
unsupported and frivolous claims, and I paraphrase
1. A modern scientific experiment in mice has shown
that an old grandmother's kaannee about cancer
surgery causing a cancer to spread was accurate.

Mario observes:
To begin with Gilbert is a Board Certified cancer
specialist, Santosh is not.
What difference does it make if Gilbert's post was in
some "Science and Religion" thread?
Santosh's assertion above is completely false. It is
arrived at by taking Gilbert's post completely out of
context and perspective as anyone can see by reading
the original post in the URL
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048340.html
In a deliberate attempt to twist Gilbert's post,
Santosh has ignored the key paragraph in Gilbert's
post which is as follows:
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.

Post by Santosh Helekar
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned/flipped

and are now into minimal/organ-saving cancer surgery.
Laboratory studies on humans show that markers of the
immune system are significantly suppressed after major
surgery."
The gist of Gilbert's post was that what seemed to the
grandmothers to be caused by exposition to air [the
spread of cancer], was actually being caused by a
suppression of the immune system. However, the
grandmothers had no way of knowing this, leading to
their kaneos.

[Gilbert Lawrence]

Hi Mario,

I beg your indulgence to switch the title of the thread "Allowing Others To Walk Their Paths" to the more appropriate "Another Kaneo .. or is it .. Hot Air?"
Compliments for your sharp observations, which you have outlined below.
You should tutor some our goanet "research scientists" to interpret correctly what to most is plainly observed.

These are the same guys that write pious posts and claim:
Me? Distort others? Not on my word of honor! ....
Or "Moderators please have the gust to censor me for such behavior."

Kind Regards, GL

------------ Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
For example, right after posting the seemingly conciliatory comments, this same Kevin could not resist the temptation to post:
a) "This does not stop the faith healers or other religious leaders from accepting donations in return for (ineffective) prayers."
b) "Interestingly, prayer had a positive effect on the rate of immaculate conceptions;-)"
What makes this even more interesting is that Kevin, who is a vetenarian, is commenting on a facetious post on Goan kaneos as they relate to cancer by Gilbert, who is a Board Certified oncologist.
Kevin joined Santosh and Jose, who are not trained oncologists either. Santosh even claimed in his response to Gilbert, "The post appended below propagates dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this public forum.".
However, what Kevin seems to have understood before descending into ridicule, which Santosh and Jose seem to have missed, intentionally or intentionally, is the following key and serious paragraph in Gilbert's otherwise light-hearted post, which was as follows:
"The current explanation for this (statistical significant) observation is that the surgery depresses the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery has undergone and is undergoing significant shift. From big radical cancer surgery we have turned/flipped and are now into minimal/organ-saving cancer surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that markers of the immune system are significantly suppressed after major surgery."
In other words, what the Goan grandmothers thought was being caused by exposition to air, was in fact, being caused by a depression of the immune system.
For those who understood what Gilbert was trying to say, there was no propagation of "...dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this public forum."

This post from DailyOM is pertinent to the ongoing jousting on GoaNet. If more members understood that this forum is primarily for expressing their views and not necessarily for brow-beating opponents, we can have a much more enjoyable and productive dialogue.

[Gilbert Lawrence]

Santosh, as usual, keeps distorting other peoples' writings. He is so good at it, that I wonder if he does the same in his daily work?
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Kevin .

Both you (Santosh) and Jose appear to have missed the gist of Gilbert's post.

GL: Absolutely correct!

---------- Santosh


1. A modern scientific experiment in mice has shown that an old grandmother's kaannee about cancer surgery causing a cancer to spread was accurate.

GL: Mistake!
The mice experiment caused the cancer cells to grow more rapidly. In the experiment, the cancer had already spread prior to the surgery. (Please see the original post again). The spread was one of the first steps prior to the real test (separation of mice) started. Santosh's above statement clearly demonstrates his difficulty / inability to observe and interpret what is clearly written and plainly seen by most.

2. Only a pseudo-scientist would ignore the observations from grandmother's kaanneo.

GL: Thankfully Accurate.

3. When doctors do not know what is going on, they call it "the immune system", instead of calling it the soul, inner strength, God within, etc. But for a supurlo Goenkar like Gilbert there is no difference between these terms.

GL: Total fabrication by Santosh

4. People all over the world, over the last 5000 years, had similar perspectives on this issue as doctors today.

GL: I do not know what "perspectives" Santosh is referring to! Yet again, it is a total distortion of my writings.

5. Gilbert has seen quite a few Goans get ill due to disregard of grandmother's kaanneo.

GL: Accurate.

6. Gilbert has provided the scientific basis of some Goan myths and grandmother's kaanneo in his book on Goa.

GL: Thankfully accurate.

I hope you get the correct gist of his post.

GL: Santosh had done it again with half truths and half distortions. He does what he accuses others of: Distortion of him and his writings.
I would like to follow the dictum. "Do not argue with a fool. They drag you down to their level and overpower you with experience."

The non-medicos who have read my posts have publicly and privately written to me stating they followed my writings and thanked me for the useful information. Not surprisingly, I will continue to have to work on the doctors. :=)) This is my last post on this thread.

Regards, GL

[Santosh Helekar]

Frederick,

That is a horribly written article. Many of the
statements contained in it are demonstrably false.
Many others, especially the quotes, are simply out of
date by more than 30 years. The excessive use of
neologisms betrays the vacuousness of some of the
claims made. As far as whether one or both of the
authors are quacks or not, would depend on how
strongly they deny well-established facts such as the
observation that the HIV virus causes AIDS, and why.

Cheers,

Santosh

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"

Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Dr Santosh's unabashed faith in the miracles and
potential of science,
once again, underlines that he treats it like a
religion.
I came across the work of Dr Manu Kothari and Dr
Lopa Mehta through the OIBS at Mapusa. Please tell
me if they are "quacks" or just people willing to
question the dominant paradigm of corporate-dominated
and defined medicine?

[Gilbert Lawrence]

Hi Fred,

I attempted to bring to Goanet readers some of the advances and pitfalls in practice patterns in my filed of expertise. I appreciate the thanks I recieved both publicly and privately from the goanetters. I wished other specialists would have used this opporutnity to undertake a similar expose in their own field, to alert Goans about changes occuring.

Yet as you point out, there are a few indiviudals who are experts in everybody else's profession. Perhaps their field has not had any new develpements to report or changes in practice patterns. Thus, they have ample time to (superficially) keep up with other fields or at least opine about them. If everything fails, a quick net search will always unearth something to demagogue some aspect of the post. In Konkanni, is such writing called "fuggdi"?

I am off to a well deserved vacation / cruise with my good wife.
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Frederick \"FN\" Noronha" <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>

I think Gilbert did an interesting expose -- from a field of his specialisation -- to explain how we can be caught in a time-warp and still feel very sanctimonous about it....

It might not be unrealistic to say that "modern medicine" is, at best, a changing field of knowledge. One that is limited by current-day knowledge, biases, and even the interests of big pharma and other lobbies.

Goanet is indeed a great place. Neurospecialists tell oncologists how they should do their work. Paediatricians lecture to historians. And we have medical ethics being applied to decide what's wrong and right in the field of journalism. We just perhaps need to start being critical of our own fields, and their flaws. For instance, I would be the first to say journalism (forget about concepts like "precision journalism") is still very much of a hit-and-miss activity, one that is filled with flaws and human biases, and is definitely not as neutral and objective as made out to be by classic text-book scenarios.
I notice quite a few doctors were in the forefront in their attacks on religion. Yet when it comes to abuses in medicine, they are silent. Or like you, they may voice concern about "confusing Goan readers" with alerting them about poor medical practices.

[Mervyn Lobo]

"Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"

Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Dr Santosh's unabashed faith in the miracles and
potential of science, once again, underlines that
he treats it like a religion.

Fred,
You are making no sense at all.

I think you should stick to telling us what you know
and let Santosh tells us what he does. Santosh has
never put words in your mouth. I wonder why you have
taken it upon yourself to put words in his.

Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
I came across the work of Dr Manu Kothari and Dr
Lopa Mehta through
the OIBS at Mapusa. Please tell me if they are
"quacks" or just people willing to question the
dominant paradigm of corporate-dominated and
defined medicine?

Here in N. America most Goans have invested their
savings in mutual funds. Most of these mutual funds
include the medial colossals like Bayer, Bristol
Meyers Squid, etc. New drugs from these companies are
often block buster sellers making the shareholders
very rich.

The drugs are block busters because they work well. If
you were in N. America I would have advised you too to
invest in these corporate dominated medicines.

Mervyn3.0



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[Santosh Helekar]

I am sorry that Gilbert thinks that I have distorted
one of his claims, made a mistake on one, and
fabricated another one. Because of this dispute he has
gone on and said several negative things about me, and
implied that I am a fool. But I am grateful to him to
have at least been generous enough to concede that I
have accurately paraphrased three of his six claims.

However, I would really like to understand what
exactly it is that he was trying to say in the
statements that he disputes. Therefore, I would like
to actually quote these disputed statements from his
post. And I humbly ask him to clarify them, and answer
a few of questions about them.

Post by Santosh Helekar
1. A modern scientific experiment in mice has shown
that an old grandmother's kaannee about cancer
surgery causing a cancer to spread was accurate.
GL: Mistake!

Here is Gilbert's original quote that I am referring
to:

"Many may have heared in Goa, and in fact all over the
world, the belief that when you operate on cancer,
(open the patient), it makes the cancer spread and
the outcome worse. The explanation was, if / when air
gets to the cancer, the tumor became aggressive. So
this is believed to be a Goan Kaneo.

A few years ago, an experiment was undertaken where a
batch of mice were injected with an identical quantity
(volume) of aggressive cancer cells. As expected the
mice developed multiple tumors (metastasis) in the
lung. Half the mice were then operated to remove
tumors from just one lung. The other half of the batch
of mice did not undergo any surgery. The mice were
then followed. The mice with their tumor (partly)
removed died much earlier than the group where the
tumors in both lungs were allowed to grow
uninterrupted. Thus the grandmother's observation was
accurate."
..............Gilbert Lawrence

(Please see his original post at
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048340.html)

Gilbert has now given another explanation quoted

Post by Santosh Helekar
The mice experiment caused the cancer cells to grow
more rapidly. In the experiment, the cancer had
already spread prior to the surgery. (Please see
the original post again). The spread was one of the
first steps prior to the real test (separation of
mice) started. Santosh's above statement clearly
demonstrates his difficulty / inability to observe
and interpret what is clearly written and plainly
seen by most.

The questions I have are:

1. Can Gilbert please provide me with the
bibliographic reference to the original research paper
that described this experiment?

2. What did he mean by the following assertions:

a) "Many may have heared in Goa, and in fact all over
the world, the belief that when you operate on cancer,
(open the patient), it makes the cancer spread and
the outcome worse."

b) "Thus the grandmother's observation was accurate."

Post by Santosh Helekar
3. When doctors do not know what is going on, they
call it "the immune system", instead of calling it
the soul, inner strength, God within, etc. But for a
supurlo Goenkar like Gilbert there is no difference
between these terms.
GL: Total fabrication by Santosh

Here is Gilbert's original quote to which I referred:

"Now one can point to the fact that when doctors do
not know what is going on, they call it "the immune
system" instead of: inner strength / Mind / soul / Id
/ God within / self awareness/ inner essence / love /
sentience / spirit / self / ego / emotion / pathos /
carnal / atma / jiva / essence / Ego / Ekam / Ghost /
Vitalism. Surely philosophers and theologians can
make things complicated. But, for me a supurlo
Goenkar, all these is the "same difference". :=))"
....................Gilbert Lawrence

(Please see his original post at
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048340.html)

Now my question to Gilbert is:

1. Which part of my paraphrased statement is a total
fabrication?

Post by Santosh Helekar
4. People all over the world, over the last 5000
years, had similar perspectives on this issue as
doctors today.
GL: I do not know what "perspectives" Santosh is
referring to! Yet again, it is a total distortion
of my writings.

Here is Gilbert's original quote to which I referred:

"Now one can point to the fact that when doctors do
not know what is going on, they call it "the immune
system" instead of: inner strength / Mind / soul / Id
/ God within / self awareness/ inner essence / love /
sentience / spirit / self / ego / emotion / pathos /
carnal / atma / jiva / essence / Ego / Ekam / Ghost /
Vitalism. Surely philosophers and theologians can
make things complicated. But, for me a supurlo
Goenkar, all these is the "same difference". :=))
This long list is to show that people from all over
the world, over the last 5,000 years have had similar
perspectives."

Now the question I have for Gilbert is:

1. What "perspectives" was he referring to in the
above quote, and what part of my paraphrased statement
is a distortion?

I hope Gilbert answers my questions.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Santosh Helekar]

I think Gilbert is right about his description of the
surgical treatment of ovarian cancer, as he should be.
The only minor point of contention might be his
rejection of the term "aggressive". The nice thing
about modern medical research, or rather, scientific
research in general, is that the latest advances get
published in high quality peer-reviewed journals that
physicians, medical scientists, as well as interested
and well-informed patients and lay people can read.
For example, those who are interested in finding out
about improved survival due to aggressive surgery in
advanced ovarian cancer, can read the following
research paper published in January of this year in
the journal "Obstetrics and Gynecology":

"Aletti GD, Dowdy SC, Gostout BS, Jones MB, Stanhope
CR, Wilson TO, Podratz KC, and Cliby WA (2006)

Aggressive surgical effort and improved survival in
advanced-stage ovarian cancer, Obstet Gynecol,
107(1):77-85."

Those who want to have a copy of this paper are
welcome to email me. I am sure Gilbert would also be
happy to provide you a copy of it.

Cheers,

Santosh

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Updated!
To borrow from Mario, ......... I do not know
whether to laugh or to cry?
The surgery for ovarian cancer is to stage and to
"debulk" the disease. This is NOT radical surgery
to remove "all possible" tumor extension through the
abdomen as was done in the past with "aggressive
cancer surgery". In current medical practice, that
role (to eradicate possible tumor extension) is
accomplished with chemotherapy. This combined
approach achieves better results with less
side-effects and mortality.
Fred, as you and others may know, there is only so
much knowledge one can get and understand from a
net-search.
Kind Regards, GL

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Compliments for your sharp observations, which you
have outlined below.
You should tutor some our goanet "research
scientists" to interpret correctly what to most is
plainly observed.

Mario observes:
Gilbert,
I did not have to "interpret" anything you wrote. I
was all there in plain English for anyone who was
interested in critically reading your folksy
explanation of how grandmas kaneos develop.
What shocked me were the viciously deliberate
misrepresentations by a couple of medically trained
Goanetters. If they wanted to clarify what you had
written they could have asked you some pointed
questions. Instead, they made stentorian
mean-spirited claims in this public forum that you
were propagating dangerous myths and misinformation
regarding cancer treatment, then insisted on repeating
the calumny.
It begged a couple of other questions as well. For
example, a) why would you, as a Board Certified
oncologist who had taken the Hippocratic Oath
propagate myths and misinformation about cancer
treatment? and b) why would they, experienced in
medical research, deliberately misrepresent your
comments, when others, using simple English,
understood exactly what you were saying?

[Santosh Helekar]

It turns out that the American Cancer Society had
conducted a survey on one of the cancer myths that was
posted in this forum. They found that 41% of the
people in America believe in this myth. Here is the
relevant info about it from the American Cancer
Society:

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_11_1_Myths_About_Surgery_for_Cancer.asp

"Does Surgery Cause Cancer to Spread?

By Ted Gansler, MD, MBA; Director of Medical Content,
American Cancer Society

True or False?: Treating cancer with surgery causes it
to spread throughout the body.

Respondents Who Agreed: 41%

Origin: This myth may have started many years ago when
most patients already had very advanced cancers by the
time they sought medical care. Doctors may have
operated to find the cause of a patient's illness and
found an advanced cancer that could not be treated
successfully. When the patient died a short time
later, observers thought the surgery caused the cells
to spread and killed the patient.

Reality: Specialists in cancer surgery know how to
safely take biopsy samples and to remove tumors
without causing spread of the cancer. In many cases,
surgery is an essential part of the cancer treatment
plan.

For a few types of cancer, surgeons take extra
precautions to prevent any chance of the cancer
spreading. For example, in testicular cancer the
entire testicle containing the cancer is removed, so
no cancer cells are dislodged. Doctors who perform
surgery for cancer are specialists and are highly
trained in the intricacies of cancer and anatomy.

Learning about treatment options such as surgery is
very helpful and can be reassuring to patients going
through the cancer experience."

Cheers,

Santosh

[Peter D'Souza]

Is there anyone besides Santosh Helekar who has completely missed the
point of Gilbert's post?

Peter
---

Subject: Re: [Goanet] More info on the Cancer Myth
It turns out that the American Cancer Society had
conducted a survey on one of the cancer myths that was
posted in this forum. They found that 41% of the
people in America believe in this myth. Here is the
relevant info about it from the American Cancer
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_11_1_Myths_About_Surgery_for_Cancer.asp
"Does Surgery Cause Cancer to Spread?

[Santosh Helekar]

Post by Peter D'Souza
Is there anyone besides Santosh Helekar who has
completely missed the point of Gilbert's post?

Peter,

I think you have already demonstrated many times that
you, Gilbert and others who share your views are much
smarter than me at everything. I would therefore
humbly ask you to stop embarrassing me any further on
Goanet. Can you be so kind as to honor this humble
request of mine?

Cheers,

Santosh

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
While we are discussing this issue, may I narrate
some sad news?
A college, Umesh Mahambre, the chief reporter of the
Navhind Times, was diagnosed with some cysts, and
referred to the Tata Memorial. Even before the
biopsy could be conducted, he died. The funeral is
today. Mahambre was 48.

Mario observes:
Fred,
Condolences to the Mahambre family and Umesh's
friends.
Chances are that Umesh's condition had spread beyond
the ability of medical science to contain this killer
disease which mostly ambushes one without any apparent
reason - though some like the smoking and environment
related cancers have a cause and effect, though not on
everyone so exposed.
The trick to dealing with cancer is early recognition.
Then, some cancers are far worse than others and
harder to deal with because of their location and/or
virulence. I was fortunate. While I had a rare and
virulent form, it was outside the torso and/or the
cranium, and they were able to dig it all out and then
nuke my whole body with chemo and radiation because I
had told the oncologists to be as aggressive as they
knew how.
It was lousy while it lasted but I survived to become
the bane of forum moderators and religion-bashers and
anti-Americans on various internet forums:-))
It also changed my outlook. I used to shy away from
people who were dying, or find excuses to avoid seeing
them. Now I reach out to them and follow their lead
and encourage them to fight to the death and cope with
the treatment they need to endure.

[Peter D'Souza]

Santosh,

The only thing that some of us have demonstrated concerning you is
that we don't take everything you say (or quote) at face value.

I'm sorry, I can't offer you any help in your newfound effort to stop
embarrassing yourself, but here's something that may help: You know
how you're surrounded by a small group who never ever disagree with
you, some who often rush to your defense? Well, every time that you
feel that knee-jerk urge to vehemently disagree with and embarrass one
of the conservatives on this forum, ask yourself what you'd do if it
were one of your coterie instead.

Peter
--

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:18:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Peter,
I think you have already demonstrated many times that
you, Gilbert and others who share your views are much
smarter than me at everything. I would therefore
humbly ask you to stop embarrassing me any further on
Goanet. Can you be so kind as to honor this humble
request of mine?
Cheers,
Santosh

[Santosh Helekar]

Peter,

Have you ever considered the possibility that you
might be wrong? From my standpoint, if you have
revealed anything in this forum, it is that you have
developed an antipathy towards me. I also know from
earlier experience, that you are fighting your own
imaginary battles between liberals and conservatives
divided along some arbitrary lines, and thrusting me
in the midst of them. I submit to you that the type of
groupism that you are advancing in this forum is toxic
by its very nature. I hope some day you find within
yourself the charity to post something without
insulting another human being.

Cheers,

Santosh

Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Santosh,
The only thing that some of us have demonstrated
concerning you is
that we don't take everything you say (or quote) at
face value.
I'm sorry, I can't offer you any help in your
newfound effort to stop
embarrassing yourself, but here's something that may
help: You know
how you're surrounded by a small group who never
ever disagree with
you, some who often rush to your defense? Well,
every time that you
feel that knee-jerk urge to vehemently disagree with
and embarrass one
of the conservatives on this forum, ask yourself
what you'd do if it
were one of your coterie instead.
Peter

[Mario Goveia]

Post by Peter D'Souza

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:18:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Peter,
I think you have already demonstrated many times
that you, Gilbert and others who share your views
are much smarter than me at everything.

The only thing that some of us have demonstrated
concerning you is that we don't take everything you
say (or quote) at face value.

Mario observes:
Once again, Santosh has it backwards. It has nothing
to do with being "smart", since Santosh probably has
the highest IQ of all Goanetters. In my never humble
opinion the high IQ is part of the problem because it
has impressed several old and vociferous Goanetters,
and some new ones on the left wing, into humble
submission and acclaim and reticence, and, until
recently, has gotten away with the most outrageous
assertions interspersed among many valuable insights
and observations.
However, as we have seen over and over again, most
recently in the unprovoked and horrific attack on
Gilbert's professionalism and core ethics, based on a
totally false reading of what Gilbert had written and
a rush to judgement that was grossly uncalled for from
a medical professional, what we need is an attitude
adjustment and a respect for opposing views that is
totally lacking, no matter how many personal
testimonials are forthcoming from old friends on
Goanet.
His friends call him a "decent human being". It's
high time he reflected on what made them feel that
way.

[Carvalho]

Decency is like pornography. You can't really define
what it is but you know it when you see it.

selma
-----------------------------

Post by Mario Goveia
His friends call him a "decent human being". It's
high time he reflected on what made them feel that
way.

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