On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 19:48:50 +0100, Joe wrote...
Post by JoeOn Sun, 28 Jul 2019 19:36:45 +0100
Post by PamelaPost by FredxxPost by Tim JacksonOn Sun, 28 Jul 2019 18:14:47 +0100, Fredxx wrote...
Post by FredxxPost by Tim JacksonOn Sun, 28 Jul 2019 16:20:58 +0100, Fredxx wrote...
Post by FredxxPost by Tim JacksonOn Sun, 28 Jul 2019 15:06:43 +0100, Joe wrote...
Post by JoeOh, and you forgot to mention in your email that the EU has
also just acquired new management, by even less democratic
methods, not even selected from among MEPs. They are still
our real government.
Selected by the Council of Ministers (elected representatives
from the member states) and subject to endorsement by the
European Parliament (directly elected by voters in the member
states).
Remind me again, how many of the Conservative Party members who
elected Boris were selected by the British people?
The British people accepted Tory rules where the part members
have the final say in selecting their leader and ultimately the
PM.
Parliament, selected by the British people, can dissolve and
trigger a general election if they didn't like the selection.
One can ask a similar question, how many of the British people
selected the new EU president?
Since the British people didn't directly chose which of their
elected politicians should represent them in the Council of
Ministers which made the decision, you could make a point about
that. But if anything, that's a British democratic deficit, not
an EU one.
One which Brexit will stop, so some good news. UK has a 8% vote
down from 17%.
Post by Tim JacksonAt least we did directly elect our members of the European
Parliament. Though the largest group of them seem to see
themselves as wreckers, rather than contributing constructively
to the selection of the EU President. Again, that's not the
EU's fault.
Are you now saying MEPs do get a selection of candidates to choose
from? If not then that is most definitely the EU's fault.
"Selected by the Council of Ministers (elected representatives
from the member states)
You mean 'selected' in much the same Boris was 'elected' Prime Minister?
The main difference being the EU council of ministers is elected in
democratic national votes involving the whole electorate across the
EU -- whereas oris was elected by anyone who paid _25 to join a
political group.
The former represents the whole public, whereas the latter represents
a small special interest group. Not truly comparable at all.
Hang on, haven't you just been complaining that we *don't* elect
ministers? That ministers are appointed by whoever the majority party
in the HoC has chosen as its leader? Ministers aren't named before
General Elections, so no, nobody votes for them. Ministers in the UK
are almost always MPs, so they were elected, but they were elected as
*MPs*, not as *ministers*. Can you not see the distinction?
And they are authorised to commit their home countries to decisions
made by the Council. How democratic is that? Committing the country to
decisions made up to five years *after* the last General Election.
You're seriously confusing that with 'democracy'?
Again, let me repeat what I've already said above:
"Since the British people didn't directly chose which of their
elected politicians should represent them in the Council of
Ministers .... you could make a point about
that. But if anything, that's a British democratic deficit,
not an EU one."
It's up to each national country how they appoint their ministers.
Different countries have different systems. It's not the EU which
decides. [1]
_____________
[1] For example, Emmanuel Macron was elected President of France by a
popular vote of the whole French people. Boris was elected as an MP by
about 72,000 constituents of Uxbridge and South Ruislip, and then as
Prime Minister of the UK by about 160,000 members of the Conservative
Party. [2]
[2] To be fair, however, there are two bodies with confusingly similar
names: the Council of Ministers and the European Council:
- Boris and Macron would normally attend the European Council. This is
made up of the heads of state or heads of government of the member
states, and deals with strategic and general policy matters.
- They would normally send their most relevant ministers to meetings of
the Council of Ministers, which deals in more detail with legislative
proposals. But again, how those ministers are elected or appointed is a
matter for each national country
--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)