Gay Classical Guitarists

[D***@gmail.com]

Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.

David

[e***@yahoo.com]

Post by D***@gmail.com
Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.
David

Should it matter?

Ed S.

[D***@gmail.com]

Post by e***@yahoo.com

Post by D***@gmail.com
Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.
David

Should it matter?
Ed S.

Of course not, but classical guitar has been a patriarchy for years.
I remember Segovia dismissing one of his students for sounding too
*effeminate*. Then of course many of our macho men talk about
approaching the feminine side of their personalities. Is there really
a division like this? Music is neither feminine nor masculine. It's
something else entirely.

David

[t***@lycos.com]

Post by D***@gmail.com

Post by e***@yahoo.com

Post by D***@gmail.com
Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.
David

Should it matter?
Ed S.

Of course not, but classical guitar has been a patriarchy for years.
I remember Segovia dismissing one of his students for sounding too
*effeminate*. Then of course many of our macho men talk about
approaching the feminine side of their personalities. Is there really
a division like this? Music is neither feminine nor masculine. It's
something else entirely.
David

I am a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

TroyIII

[ktaylor]

***@gmail.com wrote:
Then of course many of our macho men talk about

Post by D***@gmail.com
approaching the feminine side of their personalities. Is there really
a division like this? Music is neither feminine nor masculine. It's
something else entirely.
David

David,
Ed is right, it doesn't matter. However...

Apart from Segovia's adolescent comment, this is an interesting topic.
The fact that it would be initiated by a gay man is very provocative,
to my sensibilities, because it might be more fruitfully discussed (no
pun intended) by one who doesn't buy into it.

Do you think your orientation might make you overly sensitive to
traditional gender dichotomies? Are these dichotomies such that you
are unable to relate to them or simply unwilling to relate to them?

In the same vein, could one also say that pitch is not really high or
low? It is a synestheisian metaphor that serves as a useful and
functional convention. So functional that our graphic interpretation
of pitch reflected it on the staff. Likewise the male/female template
serves the interpreter well, provided that he/she understands the
template. One need not live the template to understand its convention.
I do know famous gay guitarists who are wonderful interpreters and who
are able to exploit the male/female musical role when it is needed.

I think one would lose a valuable lexicon of aesthetic understanding
if the masculine/feminine framework were discarded. For example, the
minuet might just float away were it not grounded in the antecedent-
consequent contrast of the male-female introduction.

I have read of analysis where melodies whose accents fall on chord
tones have been characterized as being masculine, non-chord tones
melodies being feminine. That may be a stretch, but that is what we
find in much martial music.

Registers are another aspect that have masculine-feminine meaning by
virtue of the traditional (hormonally based) register of the genders.
Is "heroic" music simply a social construction (I don't recall any
Beethoven's dedication to Madame Bonaparte)? Can a homosexual man (or
a woman for that matter) render a 'masculine' passage as well as a
heterosexual man can render a "feminine" passage?
This brings up the larger question of whether any music, for that
matter, has extra musical meaning? If not, how can we speak of
emotional music? How does music even move us, if we don't have a
constructed bridge between it and us? Is not gender (traditional or
non-traditional) - something that is inherent to every individual and
serves as one of those bridges that connect us, not only to the earth
but to the heavens?

I don't see music as being either masculine or feminine, however, that
paradigm - as are most paradigms that are written in our genes - is a
most useful tool in which to find some meaning in music. I would hate
to discard it simply because it hurt someone's feelings.

Kevin Taylor

[Carlos Barrientos]

Post by D***@gmail.com
Then of course many of our macho men talk about

Post by D***@gmail.com
approaching the feminine side of their personalities. Is there really
a division like this? Music is neither feminine nor masculine. It's
something else entirely.
David

David,
Ed is right, it doesn't matter. However...
Apart from Segovia's adolescent comment, this is an interesting topic.
The fact that it would be initiated by a gay man is very provocative,
to my sensibilities, because it might be more fruitfully discussed (no
pun intended) by one who doesn't buy into it.
Do you think your orientation might make you overly sensitive to
traditional gender dichotomies? Are these dichotomies such that you
are unable to relate to them or simply unwilling to relate to them?
In the same vein, could one also say that pitch is not really high or
low? It is a synestheisian metaphor that serves as a useful and
functional convention. So functional that our graphic interpretation
of pitch reflected it on the staff. Likewise the male/female template
serves the interpreter well, provided that he/she understands the
template. One need not live the template to understand its convention.
I do know famous gay guitarists who are wonderful interpreters and who
are able to exploit the male/female musical role when it is needed.
I think one would lose a valuable lexicon of aesthetic understanding
if the masculine/feminine framework were discarded. For example, the
minuet might just float away were it not grounded in the antecedent-
consequent contrast of the male-female introduction.
I have read of analysis where melodies whose accents fall on chord
tones have been characterized as being masculine, non-chord tones
melodies being feminine. That may be a stretch, but that is what we
find in much martial music.
Registers are another aspect that have masculine-feminine meaning by
virtue of the traditional (hormonally based) register of the genders.
Is "heroic" music simply a social construction (I don't recall any
Beethoven's dedication to Madame Bonaparte)? Can a homosexual man (or
a woman for that matter) render a 'masculine' passage as well as a
heterosexual man can render a "feminine" passage?
This brings up the larger question of whether any music, for that
matter, has extra musical meaning? If not, how can we speak of
emotional music? How does music even move us, if we don't have a
constructed bridge between it and us? Is not gender (traditional or
non-traditional) - something that is inherent to every individual and
serves as one of those bridges that connect us, not only to the earth
but to the heavens?
I don't see music as being either masculine or feminine, however, that
paradigm - as are most paradigms that are written in our genes - is a
most useful tool in which to find some meaning in music. I would hate
to discard it simply because it hurt someone's feelings.
Kevin Taylor

Consenting Adults, NO animals a must.

Other than that, I really don't care what a musician who writes or plays
in tune, on time, with good melody and solid chords "sleeps" with.

C

[D***@gmail.com]

Post by D***@gmail.com
Then of course many of our macho men talk about

Post by D***@gmail.com
approaching the feminine side of their personalities. Is there really
a division like this? Music is neither feminine nor masculine. It's
something else entirely.
David

David,
Ed is right, it doesn't matter. However...
Apart from Segovia's adolescent comment, this is an interesting topic.
The fact that it would be initiated by a gay man is very provocative,
to my sensibilities, because it might be more fruitfully discussed (no
pun intended) by one who doesn't buy into it.
Do you think your orientation might make you overly sensitive to
traditional gender dichotomies? Are these dichotomies such that you
are unable to relate to them or simply unwilling to relate to them?
In the same vein, could one also say that pitch is not really high or
low? It is a synestheisian metaphor that serves as a useful and
functional convention. So functional that our graphic interpretation
of pitch reflected it on the staff. Likewise the male/female template
serves the interpreter well, provided that he/she understands the
template. One need not live the template to understand its convention.
I do know famous gay guitarists who are wonderful interpreters and who
are able to exploit the male/female musical role when it is needed.
I think one would lose a valuable lexicon of aesthetic understanding
if the masculine/feminine framework were discarded. For example, the
minuet might just float away were it not grounded in the antecedent-
consequent contrast of the male-female introduction.
I have read of analysis where melodies whose accents fall on chord
tones have been characterized as being masculine, non-chord tones
melodies being feminine. That may be a stretch, but that is what we
find in much martial music.
Registers are another aspect that have masculine-feminine meaning by
virtue of the traditional (hormonally based) register of the genders.
Is "heroic" music simply a social construction (I don't recall any
Beethoven's dedication to Madame Bonaparte)? Can a homosexual man (or
a woman for that matter) render a 'masculine' passage as well as a
heterosexual man can render a "feminine" passage?
This brings up the larger question of whether any music, for that
matter, has extra musical meaning? If not, how can we speak of
emotional music? How does music even move us, if we don't have a
constructed bridge between it and us? Is not gender (traditional or
non-traditional) - something that is inherent to every individual and
serves as one of those bridges that connect us, not only to the earth
but to the heavens?
I don't see music as being either masculine or feminine, however, that
paradigm - as are most paradigms that are written in our genes - is a
most useful tool in which to find some meaning in music. I would hate
to discard it simply because it hurt someone's feelings.
Kevin Taylor

HA! I don't have the strength Kevin. BTW I saw your article in
Guitar Teacher. Some very interesting reading.

David

[ktaylor]

Post by D***@gmail.com
HA! I don't have the strength Kevin. BTW I saw your article in
Guitar Teacher. Some very interesting reading.
David

Oh c'mon David. You have a good perspective to continue the discussion
(that you started). I'd like to hear your thoughts
on this.

Regarding the adolescent matter of 'girly' playing. No question that
that was a perception when I
was a younger man and studying. It was a common convention among the
male guitarists and teachers that females
had more quieter tone. To my knowledge I associated with no gay
guitarists back then (judging from the behavior at the parties),
but certainly time (and Ida Presti, Ana Vidovic, and countless others)
have shown feminine = tone weakness to be a fable.

I will say that I still find the fable useful in my teaching to spur
the boys (who don't want to be 'girly') and the girls
(who don't want to have an 'inferior' sound) into a higherer intensity
and spectrum of volume. Works pretty good, too. Ironically, the way to
destroy the veracity of fable is to continue it.

I have no idea how my tactic is taken by gay-oriented children, since
I can't identify them. Do you think the guitar as an icon is
associated with "maleness" in the
mind of a child? We generate app. 70% male students every year since
we've been databasing them (20 years). Of those, I have no idea how
many are
homosexuals (there is no field in our database for that (:)

Kevin

[D***@gmail.com]

Post by D***@gmail.com
Then of course many of our macho men talk about

Post by D***@gmail.com
approaching the feminine side of their personalities. Is there really
a division like this? Music is neither feminine nor masculine. It's
something else entirely.
David

David,
Ed is right, it doesn't matter. However...
Apart from Segovia's adolescent comment, this is an interesting topic.
The fact that it would be initiated by a gay man is very provocative,
to my sensibilities, because it might be more fruitfully discussed (no
pun intended) by one who doesn't buy into it.
Do you think your orientation might make you overly sensitive to
traditional gender dichotomies? Are these dichotomies such that you
are unable to relate to them or simply unwilling to relate to them?
In the same vein, could one also say that pitch is not really high or
low? It is a synestheisian metaphor that serves as a useful and
functional convention. So functional that our graphic interpretation
of pitch reflected it on the staff. Likewise the male/female template
serves the interpreter well, provided that he/she understands the
template. One need not live the template to understand its convention.
I do know famous gay guitarists who are wonderful interpreters and who
are able to exploit the male/female musical role when it is needed.
I think one would lose a valuable lexicon of aesthetic understanding
if the masculine/feminine framework were discarded. For example, the
minuet might just float away were it not grounded in the antecedent-
consequent contrast of the male-female introduction.
I have read of analysis where melodies whose accents fall on chord
tones have been characterized as being masculine, non-chord tones
melodies being feminine. That may be a stretch, but that is what we
find in much martial music.
Registers are another aspect that have masculine-feminine meaning by
virtue of the traditional (hormonally based) register of the genders.
Is "heroic" music simply a social construction (I don't recall any
Beethoven's dedication to Madame Bonaparte)? Can a homosexual man (or
a woman for that matter) render a 'masculine' passage as well as a
heterosexual man can render a "feminine" passage?
This brings up the larger question of whether any music, for that
matter, has extra musical meaning? If not, how can we speak of
emotional music? How does music even move us, if we don't have a
constructed bridge between it and us? Is not gender (traditional or
non-traditional) - something that is inherent to every individual and
serves as one of those bridges that connect us, not only to the earth
but to the heavens?
I don't see music as being either masculine or feminine, however, that
paradigm - as are most paradigms that are written in our genes - is a
most useful tool in which to find some meaning in music. I would hate
to discard it simply because it hurt someone's feelings.
Kevin Taylor

Kevin,

Gender and sexual preferences are two different concepts, maybe that
will help.

David

[d***@yahoo.ca]

Post by ktaylor
In the same vein, could one also say that pitch is not really high or
low? It is a synestheisian metaphor that serves as a useful and
functional convention. So functional that our graphic interpretation
of pitch reflected it on the staff.

Pitch height is not metaphorical - see this recent study (I think it
might still be in press - I have a copy of the ms if you are
interested KT):

Rusconi, Elena; Kwan, Bonnie; Giordano, Bruno L.; Umilta, Carlo;
Butterworth, Brian (2006). Spatial Representation of Pitch Height: The
SMARC Effect. Cognition 99 (2), 113-129


Abstract

Through the preferential pairing of response positions to pitch, here
we show that the internal representation of pitch height is spatial in
nature and affects performance, especially in musically trained
participants, when response alternatives are either vertically or
horizontally aligned. The finding that our cognitive system maps pitch
height onto an internal representation of space, which in turn affects
motor performance even when this perceptual attribute is irrelevant to
the task, extends previous studies on auditory perception and suggests
an interesting analogy between music perception and mathematical
cognition. Both the basic elements of mathematical cognition (i.e.
numbers) and the basic elements of musical cognition (i.e. pitches),
appear to be mapped onto a mental spatial representation in a way that
affects motor performance.

[ktaylor]

Post by d***@yahoo.ca

Post by ktaylor
In the same vein, could one also say that pitch is not really high or
low? It is a synestheisian metaphor that serves as a useful and
functional convention. So functional that our graphic interpretation
of pitch reflected it on the staff.

Pitch height is not metaphorical - see this recent study (I think it
might still be in press - I have a copy of the ms if you are
Rusconi, Elena; Kwan, Bonnie; Giordano, Bruno L.; Umilta, Carlo;
Butterworth, Brian (2006). Spatial Representation of Pitch Height: The
SMARC Effect. Cognition 99 (2), 113-129
Abstract
Through the preferential pairing of response positions to pitch, here
we show that the internal representation of pitch height is spatial in
nature and affects performance, especially in musically trained
participants, when response alternatives are either vertically or
horizontally aligned. The finding that our cognitive system maps pitch
height onto an internal representation of space, which in turn affects
motor performance even when this perceptual attribute is irrelevant to
the task, extends previous studies on auditory perception and suggests
an interesting analogy between music perception and mathematical
cognition. Both the basic elements of mathematical cognition (i.e.
numbers) and the basic elements of musical cognition (i.e. pitches),
appear to be mapped onto a mental spatial representation in a way that
affects motor performance.

Were the subjects adults or adult musicians? If so, the mapping may
have been constructed and the study irrelevant to my observation
(which does not suggest there is no metaphoric high/low
representation).

However, pre-operation children do not map pitch like that. It has to
be learned. It is learned with the convention
of high/low (Children naturally think high/low refers to loud/soft - a
convention quickly transferred to pitch with training).

But I sure like your referenced study. I would like to read more of it
to see what they mean about affecting motor performance. Can you
describe that?

Kevin

[d***@yahoo.ca]

Post by ktaylor

Post by d***@yahoo.ca

Post by ktaylor
In the same vein, could one also say that pitch is not really high or
low? It is a synestheisian metaphor that serves as a useful and
functional convention. So functional that our graphic interpretation
of pitch reflected it on the staff.

Pitch height is not metaphorical - see this recent study (I think it
might still be in press - I have a copy of the ms if you are
Rusconi, Elena; Kwan, Bonnie; Giordano, Bruno L.; Umilta, Carlo;
Butterworth, Brian (2006). Spatial Representation of Pitch Height: The
SMARC Effect. Cognition 99 (2), 113-129
Abstract
Through the preferential pairing of response positions to pitch, here
we show that the internal representation of pitch height is spatial in
nature and affects performance, especially in musically trained
participants, when response alternatives are either vertically or
horizontally aligned. The finding that our cognitive system maps pitch
height onto an internal representation of space, which in turn affects
motor performance even when this perceptual attribute is irrelevant to
the task, extends previous studies on auditory perception and suggests
an interesting analogy between music perception and mathematical
cognition. Both the basic elements of mathematical cognition (i.e.
numbers) and the basic elements of musical cognition (i.e. pitches),
appear to be mapped onto a mental spatial representation in a way that
affects motor performance.

However, pre-operation children do not map pitch like that. It has to
be learned. It is learned with the convention
of high/low (Children naturally think high/low refers to loud/soft - a
convention quickly transferred to pitch with training).

They cite a study (Roffler and Butler 1968) where high low
associations with pitch were found in 4-5 year olds unaware of "high"
and "low" being used with reference to pitch. Where have you read to
the contrary?

Post by ktaylor
But I sure like your referenced study. I would like to read more of it
to see what they mean about affecting motor performance. Can you
describe that?
Kevin

Motor performance is referring to a reaction time setup. Participants
were asked to press either '6' or 'spacebar' on a QWERTY keyboard in
response to a target stimulus. Where stimulus response compatibility
(SRC) existed (e.g., being asked to press '6' for high sounds), RT
improved significantly. Most importantly, the pitch-based SRC effect
was still there in non-musicians even when given a task that was
unrelated to pitch (decide if a target tone is produced by a wind or
percussion instrument - i.e. their timbre judgments were still
modulated by pitch-based SRC even though it wasn't part of the
task).

Interestingly, only musicians showed an SRC effect for horizontal
setup (using 'q' and 'p' keys). I would think this might be learned
(i.e. piano, guitar lessons).

BTW, SMARC is a reference to SNARC - a well-established effect where
RT for number magnitude judgment improves with SRC horizontally,
suggesting an innate 'number line'. That this effect should be found
in both music and math is absolutely fascinating IMHO.

[ktaylor]

***@yahoo.ca wrote:
\

Post by d***@yahoo.ca
BTW, SMARC is a reference to SNARC - a well-established effect where
RT for number magnitude judgment improves with SRC horizontally,
suggesting an innate 'number line'. That this effect should be found
in both music and math is absolutely fascinating IMHO.

I teach a young lady who has fragile x. She has no ordination
abilities. I wonder how
she would respond to both numbers and pitch.

Fran Rauscher at Oshkosh is doing some significant research with
musical training and mathematical cognition with young kids.


Kevin

[ktaylor]

Post by d***@yahoo.ca

Post by ktaylor
However, pre-operation children do not map pitch like that. It has to
be learned. It is learned with the convention
of high/low (Children naturally think high/low refers to loud/soft - a
convention quickly transferred to pitch with training).

They cite a study (Roffler and Butler 1968) where high low
associations with pitch were found in 4-5 year olds unaware of "high"
and "low" being used with reference to pitch. Where have you read to
the contrary?

I have not read anything to the contrary, nor am I familiar with that
particular study. I am just citing
my experience of teaching many pre-ops (probably close to 200) who
have not developed that connection and must be taught.
I know that pitch discrimination studies show that as an early
development, usually by age 5, but basic
discrimination and use of the terms "high/low" to describe pitch are
two different things. Those kids' understanding of my use of the term
"high/low"
when I test the kids that age without training is not normally present
which leads me to my conclusion that it is not generally inherent
and also leads me believe that pitch description is metaphorical.
However, it could be a later natural development, though I have
experienced
quasi-ops and operational aged kids (maybe a half-dozen) who did not
have musical training and did not understand the
"highness and lowness" of pitch - even though they ultimately learned
it and could map it with very little subsequent training.

Kevin

[d***@yahoo.ca]

Post by ktaylor

Post by d***@yahoo.ca

Post by ktaylor
However, pre-operation children do not map pitch like that. It has to
be learned. It is learned with the convention
of high/low (Children naturally think high/low refers to loud/soft - a
convention quickly transferred to pitch with training).

They cite a study (Roffler and Butler 1968) where high low
associations with pitch were found in 4-5 year olds unaware of "high"
and "low" being used with reference to pitch. Where have you read to
the contrary?

I have not read anything to the contrary, nor am I familiar with that
particular study. I am just citing
my experience of teaching many pre-ops (probably close to 200) who
have not developed that connection and must be taught.
I know that pitch discrimination studies show that as an early
development, usually by age 5, but basic
discrimination and use of the terms "high/low" to describe pitch are
two different things. Those kids' understanding of my use of the term
"high/low"
when I test the kids that age without training is not normally present
which leads me to my conclusion that it is not generally inherent
and also leads me believe that pitch description is metaphorical.

I don't know how how rigorously you were testing for this, but I think
it is would be tricky to avoid introducing artefacts (the article
discusses this problem in their literature review - interesting). I
would also suggest, with all due respect because I do admire what you
have accomplished with your program, that your assessment of the 200
pre-ops could potentially be biased by the nature of your work.

I don't expect to convince you but, in any case, a bit more evidence
that "high/low" terminology is not learned:

-many disparate languages/cultures use this distinction with respect
to pitch (e.g., Chinese, German, Polish, etc.)
-(from Rusconi et al 2006): "Melara and Marks (1990a) showed that, in
speeded reaction tasks, responding to the written word "high" is
faster in the presence of a high pitch, whereas responding to "low" is
faster in the presence of a low pitch. They argued that crosstalk
occurs between written words and pitch at a semantic level of
processing, which suggests that the association between verbal labels
denoting spatial positions and sound frequency is not arbitrary."

The last word two words are key for me - that the verbal labels high
and low just happen to be a good fit for the way we think about pitch
seems unlikely.

[ktaylor]

Post by d***@yahoo.ca
I don't know how how rigorously you were testing for this, but I think
it is would be tricky to avoid introducing artefacts (the article
discusses this problem in their literature review - interesting). I
would also suggest, with all due respect because I do admire what you
have accomplished with your program, that your assessment of the 200
pre-ops could potentially be biased by the nature of your work.

I wouldn't put it passed me. However, if I am biased, it is due to
patterns that developed over
the course of experience. I did not go into this with any bias because
of my ignorance. I may have developed bias over time.

Post by d***@yahoo.ca
I don't expect to convince you but, in any case, a bit more evidence
-many disparate languages/cultures use this distinction with respect
to pitch (e.g., Chinese, German, Polish, etc.)
-(from Rusconi et al 2006): "Melara and Marks (1990a) showed that, in
speeded reaction tasks, responding to the written word "high" is
faster in the presence of a high pitch, whereas responding to "low" is
faster in the presence of a low pitch. They argued that crosstalk
occurs between written words and pitch at a semantic level of
processing, which suggests that the association between verbal labels
denoting spatial positions and sound frequency is not arbitrary."

I am eminently convinceable. However, I have a problem with the fact
that many children that I encounter have not yet made the semantic
connection, though they readily do when trained.
I would say that once the connection is made they are then able to
process pitch in a much more sensitive way: their discrimination
ability increases - which may explain the "Darwinian" success of such
a connection.

Assuming pitch description is inherent the question I have is "why?" I
would welcome a natural connection
between semantics and pitch (which, for those who are bored with this
conversation, suggests a much more
profound meaning about the nature of the mind/world).

But if the language itself is arbitrary (high=English gau=mandarin).
Would this mean that pitch discrimination would necessarily follow and
be dependant upon the understanding of the words the person used to
describe those dimensions?

Do you know if other words have been tested (close/far, thin/thick,
man/woman, air/ground,)? It would seem to me that similar results
should be uncovered for any spatial descripters.

Thanks for the pleasant conversation. I'm still all ears.

Kevin

[Jackson K. Eskew]

This thread reminds me of Neil Postman's book, Amusing Ourselves to
Death, where he speaks of irrelevance now being seemingly filled with
import:

"There is no more disturbing consequence of the electronic and graphic
revolution than this: that the world as given to us through television
seems natural, not bizarre. For the loss of the sense of the strange
is a sign of adjustment, and the extent to which we have adjusted is a
measure of the extent to which we have been changed. Our culture's
adjustment to the epistemology of television is by now all but
complete; we have so thoroughly accepted its definitions of truth,
knowledge, and reality that irrelevance seems to us to be filled with
import, and incoherence seems eminently sane. And if some of our
institutions seem not to fit the template of the times, why it is
they, and not the template, that seem to us disordered and
strange....Television is the soma of Aldous Huxley's Brave New
World."

[Larry Deack]

Post by ktaylor
Assuming pitch description is inherent the question I
have is "why?" I would welcome a natural connection
between semantics and pitch (which, for those who are
bored with this conversation, suggests a much more
profound meaning about the nature of the mind/world).

Keep going. I'm sure I'm not the only one reading.

If you run out of gas I'll add my two cents but I'd rather just read
what you guys post. Maybe someone else will jump in. Your experience in
this surprises me and seems to run counter to my experience.

[ktaylor]

Your experience in

Post by Larry Deack
this surprises me and seems to run counter to my experience.

Larry,

What have you experienced in the matter? Jump in.

I am not sure my observations are not biased, but like I said, I do
know that if I had an initial bias it was
the opposite of what I think, now, which is that pre-ops don't map
high/low without some lexigraphic training - either formal or informal
(many operational kids seem to have it mapped already when they come
in).
Interesting sidenote: One of my associate teachers has synesthesia and
pitch is not mapped by high-low but by color (though words evoke color
in her also).

The studies of feral children suggest that the window to learn
complete language closes at a certain age. I wonder, without
linguistic attachments,
how nuanced their pitch discrimination is.

Kevin

[Larry Deack]

Post by ktaylor
Larry,
What have you experienced in the matter? Jump in.

Pitch sense is interesting. I'm curious what you think of pitch
'distance' and 'direction' of a series of notes if you view the spacial
mapping part as mostly learned.

[ktaylor]

Post by Larry Deack

Post by ktaylor
Larry,
What have you experienced in the matter? Jump in.

Pitch sense is interesting. I'm curious what you think of pitch
'distance' and 'direction' of a series of notes if you view the spacial
mapping part as mostly learned.

Pretty interesting question. I've never really analyzed myself. I'm
not sure I can answer it because tone, outside of the staff
representation,
isn't strongly visual with me. I don't audiate well and don't have a
particularly good melodic memory, but my interval and modal
recognition is very good and seems to be getting better with age.
I do use the conventions of high-low, which are meaningful in their
own way, but "high" pitch doesn't have an internal spatial
representation to me - though it can if I make it. In comparing 2
notes, I feel the relative
dissonance or consonance and can identify that "feeling". In hearing
one pitch I first process it with the sensation and then map that
sensation on the high/low spectrum. I wonder if I would give the same
answer next week
after thinking about it more.

Kevin

[Larry Deack]

Post by ktaylor
Pretty interesting question. I've never really analyzed myself. I'm
not sure I can answer it because tone, outside of the staff
representation, isn't strongly visual with me.
I don't audiate well and don't have a
particularly good melodic memory, but my interval and modal
recognition is very good and seems to be getting better with age.
I do use the conventions of high-low, which are meaningful in their
own way, but "high" pitch doesn't have an internal spatial
representation to me - though it can if I make it.

Pitch direction is found in many languages. You may notice that the
inflection markings some languages use follow the "convention" of
high-low spacial mapping. You will also see the high-low "convention" in
the old style of Japanese music notation where melodic contour is
represented as curved lines.

Do you know of anybody who reverses the high-low mapping of pitch?

Post by ktaylor
In comparing 2 notes, I feel the relative
dissonance or consonance and can identify that "feeling". In hearing
one pitch I first process it with the sensation and then map that
sensation on the high/low spectrum. I wonder if I would give the same
answer next week
after thinking about it more.

What's interesting about pitch distance is that we seem to perceive
the distance from 110 to 220 as equal to 220 to 440 - both are octaves.
There are other things that we seem to do without thinking. I tend to
think the initial mapping to high-low is innate but the exact distance
is fuzzy for most people, as if most of us are near sighted. We seem to
be able to "correct" our fuzzy hearing with experience trying to refine
our pitch sense.

[ktaylor]

Larry Deack wrote:
.

Post by Larry Deack
Do you know of anybody who reverses the high-low mapping of pitch?

What would that mean? Uses the wrong words to describe (kids do that
in what we assume is error all the time)?

But I do not know anyone who claims to process music with those
reverse dimensions.

Another question that made me do a double take.

Kevin

[Larry Deack]

Post by ktaylor
.

Post by Larry Deack
Do you know of anybody who reverses the high-low mapping of pitch?

What would that mean? Uses the wrong words to describe (kids do that
in what we assume is error all the time)?

It seems to me that you are focused on the words. I think of this
primarily as non verbal. The verbalization of the pitch space comes
after the sense of that space.

It also seems that pitch is mapped to size for most animals, with the
volume and pitch changing our perception of the size of the thing making
the sound. Loud low and soft high set the extremes of this continuum.

Post by ktaylor
But I do not know anyone who claims to
process music with those reverse dimensions.

That in itself seems to indicate that it's not just something we learn.

Post by ktaylor
Another question that made me do a double take.

The whole area of perception seems to yield some interesting
questions. Light and sound perception seem to be strongly related so
ideas about one seem to map well into the others. The differences are
also interesting, like, most of us can name colors the way some folks
name notes. We can't see multiple octaves of light. We don't map
increasing frequency of light into a high-low physical space nor do we
see any difference in distance between colors.

[d***@yahoo.ca]

Post by Larry Deack

Post by ktaylor
.

Post by Larry Deack
Do you know of anybody who reverses the high-low mapping of pitch?

What would that mean? Uses the wrong words to describe (kids do that
in what we assume is error all the time)?

It seems to me that you are focused on the words. I think of this
primarily as non verbal. The verbalization of the pitch space comes
after the sense of that space.

Of course. It has been established in the literature that much of our
response to novelty with respect to pitch (e.g., a change in pitch
direction) and rhythm as well happens preattentively. It is not
mediated by language. The idea suggested in an earlier post that you
can somehow understand how you respond to pitch through introspection
is absurd because it happens before you can introspect (if that's a
word).

[ktaylor]

***@yahoo.ca wrote:
The idea suggested in an earlier post that you

Post by d***@yahoo.ca
can somehow understand how you respond to pitch through introspection
is absurd because it happens before you can introspect (if that's a
word).

I would not argue that pitch reaction is an unconscious process. Much
happens prior to introspection. This does not mean those processes are
commpletely hidden from introspection - perhaps they are at the
deepest level but is not much unconscious activity connected to
consciousness? I do not think introspection is absurd, nor does it
necessarily lead to false conclusions (it is itself metaphorical).

Kevin

[ktaylor]

Post by Larry Deack

Post by ktaylor
But I do not know anyone who claims to
process music with those reverse dimensions.

That in itself seems to indicate that it's not just something we learn.

Are music educators irrelevant? This was the subject of a study or two
I remember reading in the JRME back in the eighties.

I do not think a child needs a training to learn basic pitch
discrimination (did I ever state the contrary?). But a teacher can
help to refine the sensitivities of that basic discrimination. We can
provide a more coherent map, if you will, and create an environment
that stimulates increased awareness.
I also think that it is possible for a person to not grow in awarenes
beyond basic discrimination (being able to tell two notes are not the
same, yet not knowing which is highest or lowest). I guess if those
pllaces in the brain are not used - they eventually are used for
something else.

Kevin

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

TCHAIKOVSKY was homosexual... Who cares? He did some amazing music...
Ben

[D***@gmail.com]

Post by Benoit Meulle-Stef
TCHAIKOVSKY was homosexual... Who cares? He did some amazing music...
Ben

I met some little gay boys at a recent guitar competition here in
Portland. They were a cute couple. One of them is an amazing
guitarist. But, as one can see from this thread, his choice to remain
anonymous is due to repressive regimes that he faces throughout his
academic career and in the outside world. While the other breeders
were out drinking, talking about about ana vidovic's marriage status,
discussing sports, he had to hide in his hotel room and *practice*.
The tyranny of the majority is something all minorities learn to deal
with. Unfortunately, we see history repeat itself over and over
again. Don't you want this kid to be able to be open, happy and
comfortable no matter where he goes?

David

[d***@yahoo.ca]

Post by ktaylor

Post by d***@yahoo.ca
I don't know how how rigorously you were testing for this, but I think
it is would be tricky to avoid introducing artefacts (the article
discusses this problem in their literature review - interesting). I
would also suggest, with all due respect because I do admire what you
have accomplished with your program, that your assessment of the 200
pre-ops could potentially be biased by the nature of your work.

I wouldn't put it passed me. However, if I am biased, it is due to
patterns that developed over
the course of experience. I did not go into this with any bias because
of my ignorance. I may have developed bias over time.

Post by d***@yahoo.ca
I don't expect to convince you but, in any case, a bit more evidence
-many disparate languages/cultures use this distinction with respect
to pitch (e.g., Chinese, German, Polish, etc.)
-(from Rusconi et al 2006): "Melara and Marks (1990a) showed that, in
speeded reaction tasks, responding to the written word "high" is
faster in the presence of a high pitch, whereas responding to "low" is
faster in the presence of a low pitch. They argued that crosstalk
occurs between written words and pitch at a semantic level of
processing, which suggests that the association between verbal labels
denoting spatial positions and sound frequency is not arbitrary."

I am eminently convinceable. However, I have a problem with the fact
that many children that I encounter have not yet made the semantic
connection, though they readily do when trained.
I would say that once the connection is made they are then able to
process pitch in a much more sensitive way: their discrimination
ability increases - which may explain the "Darwinian" success of such
a connection.
Assuming pitch description is inherent the question I have is "why?" I
would welcome a natural connection
between semantics and pitch (which, for those who are bored with this
conversation, suggests a much more
profound meaning about the nature of the mind/world).

Sorry if this double posts - my ISP dropped newsgroup feeds and google
groups totally sux.

The empirical evidence I brought up suggests that thinking spatially
about pitch is innate, not the words. Surely our ability to track
differences in pitch preceeded our ability to verbalize these
differences - language does not equal thought. Maybe your young
students just never really had any reason to think about differences
in pitch prior to lessons and your verbal labels (high/low) were a
means of switching on this association rather than drawing a
connection that wasn't there at all before hand.

I don't necessarily think this is an adaptive mechanism - I would
think the reason we do think spatially about pitch has more to do with
our perceptual shortcomings. To quote the great Jerome Kagan from a
recent CBC interview, 'biology determines what you can't be rather
than what you will be.' If our temporal resolution was not constrained
by a 20msec lower threshold, maybe our concept of pitch would be
closer to physical reality i.e. we would think quantitatively rather
than spatially (cycles per second), in which case 'more' and 'less'
insted of 'higher' and 'lower' would be the best means of describing
gross changes in pitch.

[dsi1]

Post by ktaylor

Post by d***@yahoo.ca
Through the preferential pairing of response positions to pitch, here
we show that the internal representation of pitch height is spatial in
nature and affects performance, especially in musically trained
participants, when response alternatives are either vertically or
horizontally aligned. The finding that our cognitive system maps pitch
height onto an internal representation of space, which in turn affects
motor performance even when this perceptual attribute is irrelevant to
the task, extends previous studies on auditory perception and suggests
an interesting analogy between music perception and mathematical
cognition. Both the basic elements of mathematical cognition (i.e.
numbers) and the basic elements of musical cognition (i.e. pitches),
appear to be mapped onto a mental spatial representation in a way that
affects motor performance.

Were the subjects adults or adult musicians? If so, the mapping may
have been constructed and the study irrelevant to my observation
(which does not suggest there is no metaphoric high/low
representation).
However, pre-operation children do not map pitch like that. It has to
be learned. It is learned with the convention
of high/low (Children naturally think high/low refers to loud/soft - a
convention quickly transferred to pitch with training).
But I sure like your referenced study. I would like to read more of it
to see what they mean about affecting motor performance. Can you
describe that?
Kevin

I sometimes do a simple SPL threshold test on folks in the 70+ age
range, you are right in the idea that the high/low convention that we
all know well is probably a learned one. I've learned that it is
important to remember this when explaining what their audiogram means to
the client. About 30% of them do indeed equate high/low with loudness.
I stick with the terms louder and softer for volume and the terms
"higher and lower sounds" after explaining that the high sounds would be
birds tweeting and keys jingling and low sounds would be cars and road
noise and fans.

OTOH, all the audiograms I've seen has had the tone frequency laid out
horizontally with the frequency increasing left to right, never
vertically, so we may have an innate preference to this layout.

OTOH, this just happens to be the way we have leaned to read and write
so maybe this is cultural.

You may find this amusing. My 16 year old bought a X-Box 360 video game
called "Guitar Hero" that has a guitar shaped controller with a 5 button
"fretboard." The game is a real hoot! You have to push the buttons in
sequence with the left hand while triggering the buttons with a flip
switch with the right hand. Oddly enough, I have problem coordinating my
left and right hands and can only comfortably play this game at the
lowest setting - using only 3 of the fretting buttons rather than 5.
This is interesting and unexpected. I think my son should just learn to
play the guitar - it's easier. :-)

David

[Jackson K. Eskew]

You may find this amusing. My 16 year old bought a X-Box 360 video game....

Is this a joke? Is it really true that you actually allow your son
spend his time and soul playing video games? A father should love his
son.

[dsi1]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

You may find this amusing. My 16 year old bought a X-Box 360 video game....

Is this a joke? Is it really true that you actually allow your son
spend his time and soul playing video games? A father should love his
son.

My assumption is that you were the rebellious, lost-soul type when you
were his age. Would this be correct? My son is neither of these and
frankly, age 16 is a bit too late in the game to be deluding myself that
I can control him in any meaningful way. The harsh reality is that if
you're looking for a person you can control, get yourself a dog.

I suspect that you are still a lost soul - this is a very sad state to
be in.

David

[Jackson K. Eskew]

Post by dsi1

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

You may find this amusing. My 16 year old bought a X-Box 360 video game....

Is this a joke? Is it really true that you actually allow your son
spend his time and soul playing video games? A father should love his
son.

My assumption is that you were the rebellious, lost-soul type when you
were his age. Would this be correct? My son is neither of these and
frankly, age 16 is a bit too late in the game to be deluding myself that
I can control him in any meaningful way. The harsh reality is that if
you're looking for a person you can control, get yourself a dog.
I suspect that you are still a lost soul - this is a very sad state to
be in.
David

Several times I've already said that I was a juvenile delinquent. No
need to play dumb. As for lost souls, are you without Christ as I am?
Then you too are a lost soul. You simply don't know it. Ignorance is
bliss? For the moment, yes. At any rate, it's most sad to see that
you've renounced your duty to lead your son, your own blood, to
wisdom. But of course we know that when one embraces darkness,
blindness is the toll. Thus, dimly, unconsciously, you see that you'd
only be the blind leading the blind. Your talk that at this point you
can't give him any meaningful guidance is simply a means of letting
yourself off the hook. Deep down, beneath all the accumulated refuse,
you both know this. I assure you that a reservoir of contempt for your
cowardice is building up within him and will someday burst forth and
drown you. I'm duty bound to speak only the truth, however painful.

"Truth, the bitter truth."

-Stendhal

"We have heard enough of liberty and the rights of man; it is high
time to hear something of the duties of men and the rights of
authority."

-Orestes Brownson

[wollybird]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by dsi1

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

You may find this amusing. My 16 year old bought a X-Box 360 video game....

Is this a joke? Is it really true that you actually allow your son
spend his time and soul playing video games? A father should love his
son.

My assumption is that you were the rebellious, lost-soul type when you
were his age. Would this be correct? My son is neither of these and
frankly, age 16 is a bit too late in the game to be deluding myself that
I can control him in any meaningful way. The harsh reality is that if
you're looking for a person you can control, get yourself a dog.
I suspect that you are still a lost soul - this is a very sad state to
be in.
David

Several times I've already said that I was a juvenile delinquent. No
need to play dumb. As for lost souls, are you without Christ as I am?
Then you too are a lost soul. You simply don't know it. Ignorance is
bliss? For the moment, yes. At any rate, it's most sad to see that
you've renounced your duty to lead your son, your own blood, to
wisdom. But of course we know that when one embraces darkness,
blindness is the toll. Thus, dimly, unconsciously, you see that you'd
only be the blind leading the blind. Your talk that at this point you
can't give him any meaningful guidance is simply a means of letting
yourself off the hook. Deep down, beneath all the accumulated refuse,
you both know this. I assure you that a reservoir of contempt for your
cowardice is building up within him and will someday burst forth and
drown you. I'm duty bound to speak only the truth, however painful.
"Truth, the bitter truth."
-Stendhal
"We have heard enough of liberty and the rights of man; it is high
time to hear something of the duties of men and the rights of
authority."
-Orestes Brownson- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Yea, Dave. Smack that kid upside the head and throw that fucking game
in the ocean . Get him going on his reading list tonight, and don't
let him out of his room until he's done.

[dsi1]

Post by wollybird
Yea, Dave. Smack that kid upside the head and throw that fucking game
in the ocean . Get him going on his reading list tonight, and don't
let him out of his room until he's done.

Haha - never did get to learn the "smack the kid upside the head"
technique of child rearing, must have missed it when they taught that in
HS. What can I say? I'm a slacker. I don't recall ever losing it in
front of the kiddies either. Looks like I'll never know the joy of child
abuse - life is full of much regrets. :-)

David

[John LaCroix]

Post by dsi1

Post by wollybird
Yea, Dave. Smack that kid upside the head and throw that fucking game
in the ocean . Get him going on his reading list tonight, and don't
let him out of his room until he's done.

Haha - never did get to learn the "smack the kid upside the head"
technique of child rearing, must have missed it when they taught that in
HS. What can I say? I'm a slacker. I don't recall ever losing it in
front of the kiddies either. Looks like I'll never know the joy of child
abuse - life is full of much regrets. :-)
David

I think that' technique was taught in the same course the covered the
"I'll give you a good, swift kick in the ass" topic.

[dsi1]

Thanks for the lecture. I see you still have behavioral problems from
your teen years. Obviously, there no way that I can with good conscious
afford you any credibility until you get some experience in the real
world. Take care.

David

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by dsi1

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

You may find this amusing. My 16 year old bought a X-Box 360 video game....

Is this a joke? Is it really true that you actually allow your son
spend his time and soul playing video games? A father should love his
son.

My assumption is that you were the rebellious, lost-soul type when you
were his age. Would this be correct? My son is neither of these and
frankly, age 16 is a bit too late in the game to be deluding myself that
I can control him in any meaningful way. The harsh reality is that if
you're looking for a person you can control, get yourself a dog.
I suspect that you are still a lost soul - this is a very sad state to
be in.
David

Several times I've already said that I was a juvenile delinquent. No
need to play dumb. As for lost souls, are you without Christ as I am?
Then you too are a lost soul. You simply don't know it. Ignorance is
bliss? For the moment, yes. At any rate, it's most sad to see that
you've renounced your duty to lead your son, your own blood, to
wisdom. But of course we know that when one embraces darkness,
blindness is the toll. Thus, dimly, unconsciously, you see that you'd
only be the blind leading the blind. Your talk that at this point you
can't give him any meaningful guidance is simply a means of letting
yourself off the hook. Deep down, beneath all the accumulated refuse,
you both know this. I assure you that a reservoir of contempt for your
cowardice is building up within him and will someday burst forth and
drown you. I'm duty bound to speak only the truth, however painful.
"Truth, the bitter truth."
-Stendhal
"We have heard enough of liberty and the rights of man; it is high
time to hear something of the duties of men and the rights of
authority."
-Orestes Brownson

[Jackson K. Eskew]

Post by dsi1
Thanks for the lecture. I see you still have behavioral problems from
your teen years. Obviously, there no way that I can with good conscious
afford you any credibility until you get some experience in the real
world. Take care.

Another cop-out. You've tailored your philosophy to suit the way you
live. A very common and most underrated device for excusing ourselves.
So be it.

"...[T]he light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather
than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil
hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should
be exposed."

-John 3:19-20

[dsi1]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by dsi1
Thanks for the lecture. I see you still have behavioral problems from
your teen years. Obviously, there no way that I can with good conscious
afford you any credibility until you get some experience in the real
world. Take care.

Another cop-out. You've tailored your philosophy to suit the way you
live. A very common and most underrated device for excusing ourselves.
So be it.
"...[T]he light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather
than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil
hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should
be exposed."
-John 3:19-20

So be it indeed. The truth is that I refuse to be the fall guy for your
unresolved issues with your father. In spite of what you may have heard,
I'm not Jesus Christ and cannot wash away anybodys sins. :-)

As far as you claiming to be a JD, this means little to me. It covers
the range of being nothing worse than your typical sullen, whiny,
rebellious teen to a kid capable of crapload (sorry kids) of very evil
misdeeds, my guess is that you were into vandalism/arson if you took it
that far, but I don't care about your past - many people have had a
troubled past - some a lot worse than yours or mine, but we've decided
to leave our whiny, disrespectful, rebellious ways behind us and live in
this world as adults. That you choose not to is your decision, not your
father's or mine or God's.

[Jackson K. Eskew]

Post by dsi1
So be it indeed. The truth is that I refuse to be the fall guy for your
unresolved issues with your father. In spite of what you may have heard,
I'm not Jesus Christ and cannot wash away anybodys sins. :-)
As far as you claiming to be a JD, this means little to me. It covers
the range of being nothing worse than your typical sullen, whiny,
rebellious teen to a kid capable of crapload (sorry kids) of very evil
misdeeds, my guess is that you were into vandalism/arson if you took it
that far, but I don't care about your past - many people have had a
troubled past - some a lot worse than yours or mine, but we've decided
to leave our whiny, disrespectful, rebellious ways behind us and live in
this world as adults. That you choose not to is your decision, not your
father's or mine or God's.

Please, I beg you not to soil the discussion with vulgar Freudianism.
As you're a faithful subject of the dictatorship of relativism, I'll
give you a decisive ground upon which you can reject Freud once and
for all: He's "out of date."

A JD? But I am! The degree is hanging on the wall right in front of
me! Oh.... hahahahah... you mean "juvenile delinquent." I get it now.
It's true, I'm very dense. Yes, I was a jd, but rest assured that
arson was never part of my repertoire. And the only jail time I ever
served was four hours for minor in possession of alcohol. We're not
talking Clockwork Orange here, sir.

[Larry Deack]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
Please, I beg you

Head case...

[dsi1]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
Please, I beg you not to soil the discussion with vulgar Freudianism.
As you're a faithful subject of the dictatorship of relativism, I'll
give you a decisive ground upon which you can reject Freud once and
for all: He's "out of date."
A JD? But I am! The degree is hanging on the wall right in front of
me! Oh.... hahahahah... you mean "juvenile delinquent." I get it now.
It's true, I'm very dense. Yes, I was a jd, but rest assured that
arson was never part of my repertoire. And the only jail time I ever
served was four hours for minor in possession of alcohol. We're not
talking Clockwork Orange here, sir.

As I said, the term "juvenile delinquent" means little to me - however,
you are the one that labeled yourself as such - not I. I'm am truly glad
that arson is not your thing. I'm also glad that you'll be taking some
time off of all this to help someone - this is good. The notion that I
subscribe to any of the psychbot's ideas and especially Freud is purely
in your mind - you must be confusing me with some other David. I wonder
what Freud would say about this. Haha.

David

[e***@yahoo.com]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by dsi1
So be it indeed. The truth is that I refuse to be the fall guy for your
unresolved issues with your father. In spite of what you may have heard,
I'm not Jesus Christ and cannot wash away anybodys sins. :-)
As far as you claiming to be a JD, this means little to me. It covers
the range of being nothing worse than your typical sullen, whiny,
rebellious teen to a kid capable of crapload (sorry kids) of very evil
misdeeds, my guess is that you were into vandalism/arson if you took it
that far, but I don't care about your past - many people have had a
troubled past - some a lot worse than yours or mine, but we've decided
to leave our whiny, disrespectful, rebellious ways behind us and live in
this world as adults. That you choose not to is your decision, not your
father's or mine or God's.

Please, I beg you not to soil the discussion with vulgar Freudianism.
As you're a faithful subject of the dictatorship of relativism, I'll
give you a decisive ground upon which you can reject Freud once and
for all: He's "out of date."
A JD? But I am! The degree is hanging on the wall right in front of
me! Oh.... hahahahah... you mean "juvenile delinquent." I get it now.
It's true, I'm very dense. Yes, I was a jd, but rest assured that
arson was never part of my repertoire. And the only jail time I ever
served was four hours for minor in possession of alcohol. We're not
talking Clockwork Orange here, sir.

Okay, I can't contain myself. The thread keeps on going. I must tell
this tasteless (crap) joke.


How can you tell if a guy is gay?







His d*ck tastes like sh*t.

[Jez]

Post by dsi1
So be it indeed. The truth is that I refuse to be the fall guy for your
unresolved issues with your father. In spite of what you may have heard,
I'm not Jesus Christ and cannot wash away anybodys sins. :-)

Blah blah blah....

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=245

[dsi1]

Post by Jez

Post by dsi1
So be it indeed. The truth is that I refuse to be the fall guy for your
unresolved issues with your father. In spite of what you may have heard,
I'm not Jesus Christ and cannot wash away anybodys sins. :-)

Blah blah blah....
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=245

I'm sorry that you did not appreciate my little posting. I thought it
was clear and to the point with a bit of humor at the end. Oh well.

The article you cite is pretty darn good. I agree that clarity in
writing is important. My guess is that some people have a crapload
(sorry kids) of degrees and they'd prefer that all us peons not forget
this. Take care.

[Jez]

Post by Jez

Post by dsi1
So be it indeed. The truth is that I refuse to be the fall guy for your
unresolved issues with your father. In spite of what you may have heard,
I'm not Jesus Christ and cannot wash away anybodys sins. :-)

Blah blah blah....
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=245

I'm sorry that you did not appreciate my little posting. I thought it was
clear and to the point with a bit of humor at the end. Oh well.

I thought I was addressing Jackson, sorry. I probably snipped the wrong bits
!

The article you cite is pretty darn good. I agree that clarity in writing
is important. My guess is that some people have a crapload (sorry kids) of
degrees and they'd prefer that all us peons not forget this. Take care.

Clarity s indeed important, something Jacksons' ramblings usually lack.

[dsi1]

Post by Jez

Post by Jez

Post by dsi1
So be it indeed. The truth is that I refuse to be the fall guy for your
unresolved issues with your father. In spite of what you may have heard,
I'm not Jesus Christ and cannot wash away anybodys sins. :-)

Blah blah blah....
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=245

I'm sorry that you did not appreciate my little posting. I thought it was
clear and to the point with a bit of humor at the end. Oh well.

I thought I was addressing Jackson, sorry. I probably snipped the wrong bits
!

All these nested postings and too many Davids leave much room for
confusion. I'm a little confused myself - I believe you're in the UK(?)
but you don't sound like a Brit. Is there something I'm missing? Thanks!

Post by Jez

The article you cite is pretty darn good. I agree that clarity in writing
is important. My guess is that some people have a crapload (sorry kids) of
degrees and they'd prefer that all us peons not forget this. Take care.

Clarity s indeed important, something Jacksons' ramblings usually lack.

You're right, I would never be able to afford legal representation that
could not express themselves in a clear and logical manner, no matter
how cheap. I believe you call them solicitors? Cool.

In my ongoing quest to avoid confusion I'll be using my original name
from now on. Take care.

dsi1

[Jez]

Snippage...

Post by dsi1

Post by Jez

I'm sorry that you did not appreciate my little posting. I thought it was
clear and to the point with a bit of humor at the end. Oh well.

I thought I was addressing Jackson, sorry. I probably snipped the wrong
bits !

All these nested postings and too many Davids leave much room for
confusion. I'm a little confused myself - I believe you're in the UK(?)
but you don't sound like a Brit. Is there something I'm missing? Thanks!

Yip, I'm in the UK, but I'm Welsh, maybe that explains it. LOL.

[dsi1]

Post by Jez
Yip, I'm in the UK, but I'm Welsh, maybe that explains it. LOL.

I'm a Yank that's a bit on the thick side - I'll have to do some reading
up on the Welsh... BTW, thanks for Tom Jones and Bananarama! :-)

dsi1

[Jez]

Post by dsi1

Post by Jez
Yip, I'm in the UK, but I'm Welsh, maybe that explains it. LOL.

I'm a Yank that's a bit on the thick side - I'll have to do some reading
up on the Welsh... BTW, thanks for Tom Jones and Bananarama! :-)

And Charlotte Church.

[D***@gmail.com]

Post by Jez

Post by dsi1

Post by Jez
Yip, I'm in the UK, but I'm Welsh, maybe that explains it. LOL.

I'm a Yank that's a bit on the thick side - I'll have to do some reading
up on the Welsh... BTW, thanks for Tom Jones and Bananarama! :-)

And Charlotte Church.
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
"Culture and Ideology are not your friends. Culture is the greatest barrier
to your enlightenment, your education, and your decency." - Terence McKenna
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick
society."- Krishnamurti

Charlotte Church is a lesbian?

David

[Jez]

Post by D***@gmail.com

Post by Jez

Post by dsi1

Post by Jez
Yip, I'm in the UK, but I'm Welsh, maybe that explains it. LOL.

I'm a Yank that's a bit on the thick side - I'll have to do some reading
up on the Welsh... BTW, thanks for Tom Jones and Bananarama! :-)

And Charlotte Church.

Charlotte Church is a lesbian?

Nah, and I wouldn't suggest it to her that she was, she'd probably beat my
brains out,
a very fit lass is our Charlotte !

[John LaCroix]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by dsi1

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

You may find this amusing. My 16 year old bought a X-Box 360 video game....

Is this a joke? Is it really true that you actually allow your son
spend his time and soul playing video games? A father should love his
son.

My assumption is that you were the rebellious, lost-soul type when you
were his age. Would this be correct? My son is neither of these and
frankly, age 16 is a bit too late in the game to be deluding myself that
I can control him in any meaningful way. The harsh reality is that if
you're looking for a person you can control, get yourself a dog.
I suspect that you are still a lost soul - this is a very sad state to
be in.
David

Several times I've already said that I was a juvenile delinquent. No
need to play dumb. As for lost souls, are you without Christ as I am?
Then you too are a lost soul.

So, being "without Christ" == "lost soul".

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
You simply don't know it. Ignorance is
bliss? For the moment, yes. At any rate, it's most sad to see that
you've renounced your duty to lead your son, your own blood, to
wisdom.

Who's wisdom? Maybe he is leading his son, just not along the path you
are choosing to follow. Nothing
sad about that. As long as the end result is a moral, happy, and
productive child who are you to judge?

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
But of course we know that when one embraces darkness,
blindness is the toll. Thus, dimly, unconsciously, you see that you'd
only be the blind leading the blind. Your talk that at this point you
can't give him any meaningful guidance is simply a means of letting
yourself off the hook. Deep down, beneath all the accumulated refuse,
you both know this. I assure you that a reservoir of contempt for your
cowardice is building up within him and will someday burst forth and
drown you.

Man, I don't want to be around when your resevoir bursts - I prescribe
a weekend bender in Mexico. Don't come back until
you have drank yourself silly and killed at least 10% of your brain
cells. You get extra points for a weekend in jail.

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
I'm duty bound to speak only the truth, however painful.
"Truth, the bitter truth."
-Stendhal
"We have heard enough of liberty and the rights of man; it is high
time to hear something of the duties of men and the rights of
authority."
-Orestes Brownson

Lighten up a bit!

John L.

[dsi1]

Post by D***@gmail.com
Of course not, but classical guitar has been a patriarchy for years.
I remember Segovia dismissing one of his students for sounding too
*effeminate*. Then of course many of our macho men talk about
approaching the feminine side of their personalities. Is there really
a division like this? Music is neither feminine nor masculine. It's
something else entirely.
David

I agree with Mr. Segovia, the guitar does not respond well tone-wise to
the touch of a sissy be they male or female, although the female will at
least have an excuse.

This is not to say that a female or a lesbian cannot produce a good
tone. Many females don't play like big sissys and many men do. Oddly
enough, my favorite guitarist tone-wise is female although I don't know
if she's a lesbian - gosh, I hope not. Haha. Just kidding - that matters
little.

So the only question that matters to me is do you play like a sissy
girl? Just a rhetorical question, I'm not calling you out. Hahaha.

Don

P.S. You do have an uphill battle although, a great deal of it is in
your mind.

[D***@gmail.com]

Post by dsi1

Post by D***@gmail.com
Of course not, but classical guitar has been a patriarchy for years.
I remember Segovia dismissing one of his students for sounding too
*effeminate*. Then of course many of our macho men talk about
approaching the feminine side of their personalities. Is there really
a division like this? Music is neither feminine nor masculine. It's
something else entirely.
David

I agree with Mr. Segovia, the guitar does not respond well tone-wise to
the touch of a sissy be they male or female, although the female will at
least have an excuse.
This is not to say that a female or a lesbian cannot produce a good
tone. Many females don't play like big sissys and many men do. Oddly
enough, my favorite guitarist tone-wise is female although I don't know
if she's a lesbian - gosh, I hope not. Haha. Just kidding - that matters
little.
So the only question that matters to me is do you play like a sissy
girl? Just a rhetorical question, I'm not calling you out. Hahaha.
Don
P.S. You do have an uphill battle although, a great deal of it is in
your mind.

What a schizophrenic response, don first *kids* (thereby unconsciously
positing a problem) and then says the problem is in *our* heads. It
is indeed an uphill battle. Repression is a slippery slope.

David

[dsi1]

Post by D***@gmail.com
What a schizophrenic response, don first *kids* (thereby unconsciously
positing a problem) and then says the problem is in *our* heads. It
is indeed an uphill battle. Repression is a slippery slope.
David

You must be a psychbot. OTOH, I have been accused of hearing things that
don't exist. :-) Sorry about the comment that it's all in your head. In
my case, it is all in my head. :-)

I don't know if repression is a slippery slope, it certainly is a bitch.

[Jackson K. Eskew]

Post by D***@gmail.com
Repression is a slippery slope.

Repression is vastly underrated. It can in fact be a wonderful thing -
and of course, the preservation of culture depends on much repression.
On a smaller scale, if my wife develops an attraction for Biff Malibu
next door, by all means I want her to repress her base instincts. My
children would want this too. One must abandon all Rousseauian
nonsense to fully see the great fruits of repression, for they are
legion.

As for this thread, it provides us with yet another example of
(post)modernity's breathtaking absurdity and vacuity. I'm disappointed
in you, David.

[wollybird]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by D***@gmail.com
Repression is a slippery slope.

Repression is vastly underrated. It can in fact be a wonderful thing -
and of course, the preservation of culture depends on much repression.
On a smaller scale, if my wife develops an attraction for Biff Malibu
next door, by all means I want her to repress her base instincts. My
children would want this too. One must abandon all Rousseauian
nonsense to fully see the great fruits of repression, for they are
legion.
As for this thread, it provides us with yet another example of
(post)modernity's breathtaking absurdity and vacuity. I'm disappointed
in you, David.

Which David? or All Davids?

[Jackson K. Eskew]

Post by wollybird

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by D***@gmail.com
Repression is a slippery slope.

Repression is vastly underrated. It can in fact be a wonderful thing -
and of course, the preservation of culture depends on much repression.
On a smaller scale, if my wife develops an attraction for Biff Malibu
next door, by all means I want her to repress her base instincts. My
children would want this too. One must abandon all Rousseauian
nonsense to fully see the great fruits of repression, for they are
legion.
As for this thread, it provides us with yet another example of
(post)modernity's breathtaking absurdity and vacuity. I'm disappointed
in you, David.

Which David? or All Davids?

Dicerous David.

[D***@gmail.com]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by wollybird

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by D***@gmail.com
Repression is a slippery slope.

Repression is vastly underrated. It can in fact be a wonderful thing -
and of course, the preservation of culture depends on much repression.
On a smaller scale, if my wife develops an attraction for Biff Malibu
next door, by all means I want her to repress her base instincts. My
children would want this too. One must abandon all Rousseauian
nonsense to fully see the great fruits of repression, for they are
legion.
As for this thread, it provides us with yet another example of
(post)modernity's breathtaking absurdity and vacuity. I'm disappointed
in you, David.

Which David? or All Davids?

Dicerous David.

Jackson,

We're damned if we do, damned if we don't. So as a sinner, I confess
my sins before the world! There are probably a lot more gay players
than me and Sharon, they just would rather say *no* to the repressive
nature of others. It's not worth it. But OTOH, where would gay men
and womyn be without music? It seem's like it plays a prominent role
in our culture. So, having looked at life from both sides, I choose
to stick with my own.

In the mean time, learn to be more tolerant, the same way your teacher
must tolerate your playing. :) Hugs and kisses Jackson!

David

[Jackson K. Eskew]

Post by D***@gmail.com
Jackson,
We're damned if we do, damned if we don't. So as a sinner, I confess
my sins before the world! There are probably a lot more gay players
than me and Sharon, they just would rather say *no* to the repressive
nature of others. It's not worth it. But OTOH, where would gay men
and womyn be without music? It seem's like it plays a prominent role
in our culture. So, having looked at life from both sides, I choose
to stick with my own.
In the mean time, learn to be more tolerant, the same way your teacher
must tolerate your playing. :) Hugs and kisses Jackson!

David, I like your sense of humor, and I don't mean the blatant humor,
I mean the hidden, esoteric humor. I've been meaning to compliment you
on this for some time now. You write between the lines. Yes, you know
your Strauss.

[Raptor]

The ability to share passion and pathos via music has nothing to do
with who you love, but it has a very great deal to do with whether or
not you are capable of loving and being loved in the first place. Not
everyone recognizes this, regardless of his/her erotic triggers.

I will not even attempt to describe the dynamics by which great
musicans communicate passion(s) through their instruments and/or their
compositions. But I'm quite certain it has nothing to do with whether
they define themselves as straight or gay. To represent otherwise
seems to me insufferable narcissicism. We've all heard the great
composers' works played by acclaimed musicians both straight and gay,
but if you do not know who is performing the music you're hearing, I
defy you to guess the performer's sexual orientation any more
acurately than the statistical mean. I have never seen a penis or
vagina on stage. (Well, maybe in a bar in Bangkok or Subic Bay, but
let's just not go there.) I have seen, as have you, men and women,
boys and girls, who bring all they are and hope to be to their musical
performance. Much joy may it bring them as it has me in the audience,
no matter whom they prefer to bed down with later that night, or in
their dreams.

Mark

[dsi1]

Why anybody would want to label themselves a gay or hetero- anything is
probably not readily understandable to us breeder types. Narcissism
probably plays a part in this and it might be that some view that
artistic credibility can be gained by proclaiming this.

I have to disagree with you that your love quotient has much to do with
the ability to communicate through an instrument any more than it is
linked to one's verbal ability. I think it has more to do with the
structure of a certain area or areas of one's brain. Well, that's my
unromantic, nutty little idea - your theory sounds nicer.

David

Post by Raptor
The ability to share passion and pathos via music has nothing to do
with who you love, but it has a very great deal to do with whether or
not you are capable of loving and being loved in the first place. Not
everyone recognizes this, regardless of his/her erotic triggers.
I will not even attempt to describe the dynamics by which great
musicans communicate passion(s) through their instruments and/or their
compositions. But I'm quite certain it has nothing to do with whether
they define themselves as straight or gay. To represent otherwise
seems to me insufferable narcissicism. We've all heard the great
composers' works played by acclaimed musicians both straight and gay,
but if you do not know who is performing the music you're hearing, I
defy you to guess the performer's sexual orientation any more
acurately than the statistical mean. I have never seen a penis or
vagina on stage. (Well, maybe in a bar in Bangkok or Subic Bay, but
let's just not go there.) I have seen, as have you, men and women,
boys and girls, who bring all they are and hope to be to their musical
performance. Much joy may it bring them as it has me in the audience,
no matter whom they prefer to bed down with later that night, or in
their dreams.
Mark

[John LaCroix]

Post by D***@gmail.com

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by wollybird

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by D***@gmail.com
Repression is a slippery slope.

Repression is vastly underrated. It can in fact be a wonderful thing -
and of course, the preservation of culture depends on much repression.
On a smaller scale, if my wife develops an attraction for Biff Malibu
next door, by all means I want her to repress her base instincts. My
children would want this too. One must abandon all Rousseauian
nonsense to fully see the great fruits of repression, for they are
legion.
As for this thread, it provides us with yet another example of
(post)modernity's breathtaking absurdity and vacuity. I'm disappointed
in you, David.

Which David? or All Davids?

Dicerous David.

Jackson,
We're damned if we do, damned if we don't. So as a sinner, I confess
my sins before the world! There are probably a lot more gay players
than me and Sharon, they just would rather say *no* to the repressive
nature of others. It's not worth it. But OTOH, where would gay men
and womyn be without music? It seem's like it plays a prominent role
in our culture. So, having looked at life from both sides, I choose
to stick with my own.
In the mean time, learn to be more tolerant, the same way your teacher
must tolerate your playing. :) Hugs and kisses Jackson!
David

David,

Your no sinner. Your honest.

Jackson,

As a prospective Christian you must be more forgiving ("let he who has
not sinned cast the first stone", and all that).

John L.

[Jackson K. Eskew]

Post by ktaylor
David,
Your no sinner. Your honest.
Jackson,
As a prospective Christian you must be more forgiving ("let he who has
not sinned cast the first stone", and all that).

He who denies sin is the greatest sinner of all. Truly, when one
chooses the way of darkness, blindness is the toll. Such a man is
blind to his depravity, and even extols it as good. Their number is
legion, particularly in our Oprahist age. Are you also blind, John
(of) The Cross? Would your forefathers not be ashamed of you?

"...[T]he light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather
than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil
hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should
be exposed."

-John 3:19-20

As for judgment, Christ's words on judgment are widely and
conveniently distorted. Of course he knew that life is impossible
without many moral judgments every day. Recall that in the episode you
cite (see John 8:2-11), he was speaking to pharisees, hypocrites. His
teaching here was that a hypocrite should not judge, for by so doing
he condemns himself. As for me, I readily admit that I'm a rank
sinner. You would have done better to cite Matt. 7:3, but even here
you would have fallen into error.

"The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God,
for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them
because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man judges all
things, but is himself to be judged by no one."

-1 Cor. 2:14-15

[John LaCroix]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by ktaylor
David,
Your no sinner. Your honest.
Jackson,
As a prospective Christian you must be more forgiving ("let he who has
not sinned cast the first stone", and all that).

He who denies sin is the greatest sinner of all. Truly, when one
chooses the way of darkness, blindness is the toll. Such a man is
blind to his depravity, and even extols it as good. Their number is
legion, particularly in our Oprahist age. Are you also blind, John
(of) The Cross? Would your forefathers not be ashamed of you?

Probably not. My forefathers spent much time running back and forth
across the Canadian border when they got into trouble. At the end of
the day what each man has is his conscience. Some can live with their
depravity and some can't.

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
"...[T]he light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather
than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil
hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should
be exposed."
-John 3:19-20
As for judgment, Christ's words on judgment are widely and
conveniently distorted. Of course he knew that life is impossible
without many moral judgments every day. Recall that in the episode you
cite (see John 8:2-11), he was speaking to pharisees, hypocrites. His
teaching here was that a hypocrite should not judge, for by so doing
he condemns himself. As for me, I readily admit that I'm a rank
sinner. You would have done better to cite Matt. 7:3, but even here
you would have fallen into error.

No, I don't cite the bible which is just a bunch of words edited by
white men who wanted to consodate their power over the poor and
helpless. When ever I see someone acting mean or degrading to others -
for example someone rabidly condeming a gay person to hell I say to
myself "would Jesus really approve of this?". I find this test yeilds
predictable yes/no answers almost 100% of the time - no scriptural
footnotes or references required. Much easier on the brain.

The bible is way too complicated. I believe that if God really wrote
it, he would have done it at the 'See Dick run' level so everyone
would be able to understand it, not just the theologians and self
appointed intelligensia.

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
"The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God,
for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them
because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man judges all
things, but is himself to be judged by no one."
-1 Cor. 2:14-15

Judged by no one except the big Guy, that is...

John L.

[dsi1]

Post by wollybird

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by D***@gmail.com
Repression is a slippery slope.

Repression is vastly underrated. It can in fact be a wonderful thing -
and of course, the preservation of culture depends on much repression.
On a smaller scale, if my wife develops an attraction for Biff Malibu
next door, by all means I want her to repress her base instincts. My
children would want this too. One must abandon all Rousseauian
nonsense to fully see the great fruits of repression, for they are
legion.
As for this thread, it provides us with yet another example of
(post)modernity's breathtaking absurdity and vacuity. I'm disappointed
in you, David.

Which David? or All Davids?

My guess would be Dicerous David. All the Davids, one after another have
pretty much let J down. Dicerous David was the Dave collectives' last
hope at fulfilling J's high standards of which it seems, are very lofty.
A sad day indeed.

D :-(

[John LaCroix]

Post by D***@gmail.com

Post by e***@yahoo.com

Post by D***@gmail.com
Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.
David

Should it matter?
Ed S.

Of course not, but classical guitar has been a patriarchy for years.
I remember Segovia dismissing one of his students for sounding too
*effeminate*. Then of course many of our macho men talk about
approaching the feminine side of their personalities. Is there really
a division like this? Music is neither feminine nor masculine. It's
something else entirely.
David
From my observations I suspect that being a gay, male, and effeminate

do not necessarily go together. Nor would I expect gay females to be
predisposed to 'masculinity'. Music is as you say, something
altogether different. The division is probably just the application of
sterotypes. I think that often we attach labels to people so their
behavior fits our world view, and while it may help us individually
make sense of things that doesn't guarantee that the labels we use
match reality.

John L.

[Raptor]

John is correct. Jung believed the middle, of nearly every continuum,
is occupied by maturity and wisdom. Which is another way of saying it
empowers tolerance. And tolerance is made manifest not by weakness,
but in confidence truth will out, eventually, giving strength to
endure foolishness, parochialism and bigotry. George Bush was re-
elected our President because the opposition ran a poor candidate with
a poor platform, the majority (in Ohio at least) was afraid (gay
marriage), the moral (not) majority was animated, and Karl Rove played
them all like a violin. Sound-bites (read, labels) drove the whole
show.

I struggle, and usually fail, to identify any significant differences
between racism, sexism, and fear mongering on the subject of sexual
identity -- just as I find fault with persons who believe every issue
is colored (pardon the pun) by race, gender or orientation. Labels
seldom contribute value, often camouflage (poorly) a sub rosa agenda,
and in general, suck. Sexual orientation is too often given credit
and/or faulted for things totally beyond its import. Advertising
sexual orientation on a NG post is as significant and relevant to the
venue as advertising hair color. In this context, neither matters one
bit. But I'm sure if you troll long enough, someone will tell you to
dye your hair another shade.

mark

[Larry Deack]

Post by Raptor
Sexual orientation is too often given credit
and/or faulted for things totally beyond its import.

Sexuality occupies a lot of bandwidth in the human experience. It's
important to the people who obsess about it... and that's a lot of people.

[John LaCroix]

Post by Larry Deack

Post by Raptor
Sexual orientation is too often given credit
and/or faulted for things totally beyond its import.

Sexuality occupies a lot of bandwidth in the human experience. It's
important to the people who obsess about it... and that's a lot of people.

I think the people who obsess and the most intolerant of gay people do
so because of inner doubts and insecurities they have regarding their
own sexuality.

Simple as that.

John L.

[D***@gmail.com]

Post by Raptor
John is correct. Jung believed the middle, of nearly every continuum,
is occupied by maturity and wisdom. Which is another way of saying it
empowers tolerance. And tolerance is made manifest not by weakness,
but in confidence truth will out, eventually, giving strength to
endure foolishness, parochialism and bigotry. George Bush was re-
elected our President because the opposition ran a poor candidate with
a poor platform, the majority (in Ohio at least) was afraid (gay
marriage), the moral (not) majority was animated, and Karl Rove played
them all like a violin. Sound-bites (read, labels) drove the whole
show.
I struggle, and usually fail, to identify any significant differences
between racism, sexism, and fear mongering on the subject of sexual
identity -- just as I find fault with persons who believe every issue
is colored (pardon the pun) by race, gender or orientation. Labels
seldom contribute value, often camouflage (poorly) a sub rosa agenda,
and in general, suck. Sexual orientation is too often given credit
and/or faulted for things totally beyond its import. Advertising
sexual orientation on a NG post is as significant and relevant to the
venue as advertising hair color. In this context, neither matters one
bit. But I'm sure if you troll long enough, someone will tell you to
dye your hair another shade.
mark

We shall overcome!

David

[Jackson K. Eskew]

Post by Raptor
John is correct. Jung believed the middle, of nearly every continuum,
is occupied by maturity and wisdom. Which is another way of saying it
empowers tolerance. And tolerance is made manifest not by weakness,
but in confidence truth will out, eventually, giving strength to
endure foolishness, parochialism and bigotry. George Bush was re-
elected our President because the opposition ran a poor candidate with
a poor platform, the majority (in Ohio at least) was afraid (gay
marriage), the moral (not) majority was animated, and Karl Rove played
them all like a violin. Sound-bites (read, labels) drove the whole
show.

See http://tinyurl.com/2cdpbt

[o***@gmail.com]

Is she?
I've been wondering why she plays romantic music so unromantically.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Post by D***@gmail.com
Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.
David

[Tashi]

Post by D***@gmail.com
Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.
David

David, I've never heard a gay classical guitarist that could
communicate "Pathos", as well as a normal person. Plus, gay post
performance parties, are really no fun, way too much emotionality, and
not enough beautiful women.

MT

[rsayage1 at savageclassical dot com]

Post by Tashi

Post by D***@gmail.com
Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.
David

David, I've never heard a gay classical guitarist that could
communicate "Pathos", as well as a normal person. Plus, gay post
performance parties, are really no fun, way too much emotionality, and
not enough beautiful women.
MT

Ha, asexual is even more boring. No one comes ... to the party that is....

doh.

Rich

[D***@gmail.com]

On Apr 30, 12:47 pm, "rsayage1 at savageclassical dot com"

Post by rsayage1 at savageclassical dot com

Post by Tashi

Post by D***@gmail.com
Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.
David

David, I've never heard a gay classical guitarist that could
communicate "Pathos", as well as a normal person. Plus, gay post
performance parties, are really no fun, way too much emotionality, and
not enough beautiful women.
MT

Ha, asexual is even more boring. No one comes ... to the party that is....
doh.
Rich

Who would want to go to a party where sleezy bisexual men are
*topping* anything that moves. It's your loss that you don't know the
pleasures of the ass. It's not our problem.

David

[Steve Perry]

Post by D***@gmail.com
Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.
David

Why should it matter, David? Rather like saying there are guitarists
with blue eyes or brown hair. If you believe that, outside sexual
orientation (which appears to be built-in at birth,) gay or lesbian
people are just like everybody else, where's the battle?

Recall Oscar Wilde's line? "There is no such thing as a moral or
immoral book; books are well written or badly written, that is all."

If you are gay and can't tell if there are any other gay guitar players
outside Isbin -- a thing of which I was unaware -- that should put the
lie to gay-dar, shouldn't it?

And if there are other gay guitarist who aren't bandying their
preferences about, maybe they aren't interesting in coming out.

[Jez]

Post by D***@gmail.com
Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.
David

I knew a lesbian rock'n'roll guitarist many years ago.
Damn fine at picking things up by ear, but hey who cares if you can't shag
them eh ?

[John LaCroix]

Post by Jez

David

I knew a lesbian rock'n'roll guitarist many years ago.
Damn fine at picking things up by ear, but hey who cares if you can't shag
them eh ?

Jez,

If you care you just accept the fact that the relationship you can
have with the lesbian won't be the same as the one you have with the
hetero gals - hey, you don't think about shagging your male buddies
and you can still be friends, eh? Relationships exists on multiple
levels, for example you could be screwing someone that you can't
stand as a person, but just like to screw - then there are people you
like personally but would never want to sleep with.

People are not simple, so not surprisingly if you put two of them
together the resulting relationship is really not so simple, but hey -
I'm a relativist :^)

John L.

[Larry Deack]

Post by John LaCroix
but hey -
I'm a relativist :^)

So was Jerry Lee lewis.

[Steven Bornfeld]

Post by Larry Deack

Post by John LaCroix
but hey -
I'm a relativist :^)

So was Jerry Lee lewis.

**rim shot!!**

Steve

[Sam Culotta]

Post by Larry Deack

Post by John LaCroix
but hey -
I'm a relativist :^)

So was Jerry Lee lewis.

So, is everyone.. some just won't admit it; some don't even know they are..
it depends.

Sam

[Jez]

Post by John LaCroix

Post by Jez

David

I knew a lesbian rock'n'roll guitarist many years ago.
Damn fine at picking things up by ear, but hey who cares if you can't shag
them eh ?

Jez,
If you care you just accept the fact that the relationship you can
have with the lesbian won't be the same as the one you have with the
hetero gals -

It didn't bother me, but she was quite pretty, so one did tend to dream a
little...

Post by John LaCroix
hey, you don't think about shagging your male buddies
and you can still be friends, eh? Relationships exists on multiple
levels, for example you could be screwing someone that you can't
stand as a person, but just like to screw - then there are people you
like personally but would never want to sleep with.

Don't think I've ever screwed someone I didn't like at the time...but next
morning when the beer wore off...well...urm...

Post by John LaCroix
People are not simple, so not surprisingly if you put two of them
together the resulting relationship is really not so simple, but hey -
I'm a relativist :^)

The only people I seem to know these days are all miserable bastards...dunno
why.

But yip people are a problem LOL.

[Jackson K. Eskew]

Post by Jez
The only people I seem to know these days are all miserable bastards...dunno
why.

As you're the common denominator, perhaps the misery dwells in you?

Therefor, good Brutus, be prepared to hear.
And since you know you cannot see yourself
So well as by reflection, I, your glass,
Will modestly discover to yourself
That of yourself which you yet know not of.
...The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings.

-Shakespeare, Julius Caesar

[Jez]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by Jez
The only people I seem to know these days are all miserable
bastards...dunno
why.

As you're the common denominator, perhaps the misery dwells in you?

Nope, people just seem to like telling me their problems, why they seem to
think I'd be sympathetic is beyond me ! Must be the long hair or something.

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
Therefor, good Brutus, be prepared to hear.
And since you know you cannot see yourself
So well as by reflection, I, your glass,
Will modestly discover to yourself
That of yourself which you yet know not of.
...The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings.
-Shakespeare, Julius Caesar

'Who gives a fuck anyway' - Frank Zappa.

[Mahood]

Post by D***@gmail.com
Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.
David

I've heard this guy was gay.

[Scott Daughtrey]

Post by Mahood

Post by D***@gmail.com
Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.
David

I've heard this guy was gay.
http://youtu.be/1gnB4s0-bPA

"Was"?

Scott

[D***@gmail.com]

Post by Mahood

Post by D***@gmail.com
Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.
David

I've heard this guy was gay.
http://youtu.be/1gnB4s0-bPA

Look at the silly, shenanigans with the RH once again.

David

[schmaltz]

Post by D***@gmail.com
Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.
David

What difference does it make? Can anyone tell what your sexual orientation
is by your playing? Whatever happened to the concept of "androgyny"?

[Tashi]

Post by schmaltz

Post by D***@gmail.com
battle.
David

What difference does it make? Can anyone tell what your sexual orientation
is by your playing? Whatever happened to the concept of "androgyny"?

Gays have a strange need to inform the world of their gayness, and
convert others to accept their lifestyle, and eventually join in. The
politicalization of the sexual practices, which 10% of the people in
this country perform is growing tiresome and in the long run serves to
keep republic party people in power and contributes to the deaths of
countless people around the world. Imagine if gays had not pushed
their adgenda in the last election Democrates would have taken power
and the war would be over. Timing is everything.
MT

[Raptor]

Tashi: While the "lifestyles" issues were certainly capitalized upon
by Karl and Company, Democratics might have achieved a better result
had they nominated a compelling leader instead of "Mr. Nuance." I
don't blame the RNC for pandering to people's fears, prejudices and
stereotypes. It's their most reliable base. I do blame the DNC for
failing to understand the concept of leadership.

mark

[Tashi]

Post by Raptor
Tashi: While the "lifestyles" issues were certainly capitalized upon
by Karl and Company, Democratics might have achieved a better result
had they nominated a compelling leader instead of "Mr. Nuance." I
don't blame the RNC for pandering to people's fears, prejudices and
stereotypes. It's their most reliable base. I do blame the DNC for
failing to understand the concept of leadership.
mark

True, but I tend to look at it as the Ralph Nader effect. Dems would
have won even with Kerry, had not Gay marriage been spotlighted.
Karl Rove threw the dems a bone and they went for it. Even air
America radio hosts have called upon dems to make this a non ussiue.

Personally I would like the dem's to work on getting those God Damm
"erectile dysfuction ads off the air. It's quite uncomfortable to
watch the news with your kids thesedays.
MT

[schmaltz]

Post by Tashi

Post by Raptor
Tashi: While the "lifestyles" issues were certainly capitalized upon
by Karl and Company, Democratics might have achieved a better result
had they nominated a compelling leader instead of "Mr. Nuance." I
don't blame the RNC for pandering to people's fears, prejudices and
stereotypes. It's their most reliable base. I do blame the DNC for
failing to understand the concept of leadership.
mark

True, but I tend to look at it as the Ralph Nader effect. Dems would
have won even with Kerry, had not Gay marriage been spotlighted.
Karl Rove threw the dems a bone and they went for it. Even air
America radio hosts have called upon dems to make this a non ussiue.
Personally I would like the dem's to work on getting those God Damm
"erectile dysfuction ads off the air. It's quite uncomfortable to
watch the news with your kids thesedays.
MT

Michael,
I've wondered about the part of one commercial that warns against, and I
paraphrase, against an erection that lasts more than four hours.

Jeez, if you need to keep an erection that long, you probably need four
women.

Regards,
Gene.

[John LaCroix]

Post by Tashi

Post by Raptor
Tashi: While the "lifestyles" issues were certainly capitalized upon
by Karl and Company, Democratics might have achieved a better result
had they nominated a compelling leader instead of "Mr. Nuance." I
don't blame the RNC for pandering to people's fears, prejudices and
stereotypes. It's their most reliable base. I do blame the DNC for
failing to understand the concept of leadership.
mark

True, but I tend to look at it as the Ralph Nader effect. Dems would
have won even with Kerry, had not Gay marriage been spotlighted.
Karl Rove threw the dems a bone and they went for it. Even air
America radio hosts have called upon dems to make this a non ussiue.
Personally I would like the dem's to work on getting those God Damm
"erectile dysfuction ads off the air. It's quite uncomfortable to
watch the news with your kids thesedays.
MT

Kerry wimped out over that whole swiftboat thing. If I were him, I
would have gotten onto a stage with Max Cleland and publicly dressed
down Bush, Cheney, Rove and Co. for not joining in the fun in Nam like
he and 'ol Max did. He let the reps sieze the strongest thing he had
going for him (his service record) and use it against him. Biggest
mistake every made in a modern political campain, INMO.

John L.

[John LaCroix]

Post by Raptor
Tashi: While the "lifestyles" issues were certainly capitalized upon
by Karl and Company, Democratics might have achieved a better result
had they nominated a compelling leader instead of "Mr. Nuance." I
don't blame the RNC for pandering to people's fears, prejudices and
stereotypes. It's their most reliable base. I do blame the DNC for
failing to understand the concept of leadership.
mark

I agree with you hear. The 'Mr. Nuance' disease is inflicting the
entire democratic party. If you think Kerry was bad, you should have
seen Biden on the meet the press last Sunday. That guy absolutely
refuses to answer a question. Each time he was asked by Russert to
answer a question he would say he did answer it they go off into
verbal orbit. And he wants to be president? No fricken way!

The Reps are successful because they take simple messages that anyone
can understand and play them over and over again, while the dems
deliver a 150 page term paper in response to simple questions. And
they wonder why they can't hold the countries attention. If a few of
them had some sack they might discover that they can play the same
game as the reps, and turn their positions against them, but they lack
imagination. You don't win hearts and minds by playing it safe.

John L.

[Jackson K. Eskew]

Post by John LaCroix

Post by Raptor
Tashi: While the "lifestyles" issues were certainly capitalized upon
by Karl and Company, Democratics might have achieved a better result
had they nominated a compelling leader instead of "Mr. Nuance." I
don't blame the RNC for pandering to people's fears, prejudices and
stereotypes. It's their most reliable base. I do blame the DNC for
failing to understand the concept of leadership.
mark

I agree with you hear. The 'Mr. Nuance' disease is inflicting the
entire democratic party. If you think Kerry was bad, you should have
seen Biden on the meet the press last Sunday. That guy absolutely
refuses to answer a question. Each time he was asked by Russert to
answer a question he would say he did answer it they go off into
verbal orbit. And he wants to be president? No fricken way!
The Reps are successful because they take simple messages that anyone
can understand and play them over and over again, while the dems
deliver a 150 page term paper in response to simple questions. And
they wonder why they can't hold the countries attention. If a few of
them had some sack they might discover that they can play the same
game as the reps, and turn their positions against them, but they lack
imagination. You don't win hearts and minds by playing it safe.
John L.

Here we see hints of the tired liberal canard that conservative =
stupid or lacking in sophistication. Read these to begin disabusing
yourself of this lazy nonsense; that is, if you're really interested
in the truth:

http://tinyurl.com/245om3

&

http://tinyurl.com/2dbfzy

[John LaCroix]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by John LaCroix

Post by Raptor
Tashi: While the "lifestyles" issues were certainly capitalized upon
by Karl and Company, Democratics might have achieved a better result
had they nominated a compelling leader instead of "Mr. Nuance." I
don't blame the RNC for pandering to people's fears, prejudices and
stereotypes. It's their most reliable base. I do blame the DNC for
failing to understand the concept of leadership.
mark

I agree with you hear. The 'Mr. Nuance' disease is inflicting the
entire democratic party. If you think Kerry was bad, you should have
seen Biden on the meet the press last Sunday. That guy absolutely
refuses to answer a question. Each time he was asked by Russert to
answer a question he would say he did answer it they go off into
verbal orbit. And he wants to be president? No fricken way!
The Reps are successful because they take simple messages that anyone
can understand and play them over and over again, while the dems
deliver a 150 page term paper in response to simple questions. And
they wonder why they can't hold the countries attention. If a few of
them had some sack they might discover that they can play the same
game as the reps, and turn their positions against them, but they lack
imagination. You don't win hearts and minds by playing it safe.
John L.

Here we see hints of the tired liberal canard that conservative =
stupid or lacking in sophistication. Read these to begin disabusing
yourself of this lazy nonsense; that is, if you're really interested
http://tinyurl.com/245om3
&
http://tinyurl.com/2dbfzy

Once again you missed my point, which is that it doesn't matter if the
conservative is 'stupid or lacking in sophistication', which by the
way I don't believe. The point is that you don't have to approach the
political calculus as a sophisticated genious to be the most
effective.

But you go ahead seeing the interpretation that fits your world view
best. By the way, I never visit the links you include in your replies
so if you want to make a point make it and spare your fingers.

John L.

[soslowhand]

Post by D***@gmail.com
Me, Sharon Isbin. Any others? It seems we're fighting an uphill
battle.
David

Sharon? I knew it. The haircut gave it away. :) While I don't
give two craps about ones sexual preference, <my oldest brother and
sister are gay and are both wonderful people> it seems there are a
disproportionate number of gays who seem gifted in the arts. Is this
just some false stereotype or is it something more. If 10% of the
population is gay then they've certainy contributed to the arts in
grand fashion. Bernstein, Horowitz, Thaichovsky and Britten just to
name a few. What about left-handed classical guitaritsts? Don't see
too many of them. Paul