Another First for Paris...

[g***@zeouane.org]

<http://motoring.independent.co.uk/comment/story.jsp?story=628460>

[Krusty]

Post by g***@zeouane.org
<http://motoring.independent.co.uk/comment/story.jsp?story=628460>

Now I understand why you want to move out of Paris. I would too if I
lived in a city ruled by a mayor who was that stupid & bigotted.

Unfortunately this whole country's ruled by a stupid & bigotted
government, so I don't suppose it matters much where one lives.

[genuine_froggie]

Post by Krusty

Post by g***@zeouane.org
<http://motoring.independent.co.uk/comment/story.jsp?story=628460>

Now I understand why you want to move out of Paris. I would too if I
lived in a city ruled by a mayor who was that stupid & bigotted.

4X4s pollute. They aren't needed. They're dangerous.

End of story.

[Krusty]

Post by genuine_froggie

Post by Krusty

Post by g***@zeouane.org
<http://motoring.independent.co.uk/comment/story.jsp?story=628460>

Now I understand why you want to move out of Paris. I would too if I
lived in a city ruled by a mayor who was that stupid & bigotted.

4X4s pollute.

So take the engine out & stick it in a 2wd of the same weight & it'll
pollute less will it?

Post by genuine_froggie
They aren't needed.

Completely irrelevant. As I've said before, if you're going to dictate
what people should drive based on size/pollution etc, riding around on
your BM makes you a complete hypocrite. Sell it & get a scooter.

Post by genuine_froggie
They're dangerous.

Absolute rubbish.

[Buzby]

Post by genuine_froggie

Post by Krusty
Now I understand why you want to move out of Paris. I would too if I
lived in a city ruled by a mayor who was that stupid & bigotted.

4X4s pollute. They aren't needed. They're dangerous.
End of story.

You do spout some bollocks from time to time.

Whilst I'd agree with you their potential is wasted in town, they don't
necessarily pollute more than a 4x2, and also is some cases more pedestrian
friendly than smaller cars. I think it's more resentment directed at the
people who drive them - the Paris equivelent of the 'Chelsea Tractor'
brigade.

[g***@zeouane.org]

Post by Buzby

Post by genuine_froggie

Post by Krusty
Now I understand why you want to move out of Paris. I would too if I
lived in a city ruled by a mayor who was that stupid & bigotted.

4X4s pollute. They aren't needed. They're dangerous.
End of story.

You do spout some bollocks from time to time.
Whilst I'd agree with you their potential is wasted in town, they don't
necessarily pollute more than a 4x2, and also is some cases more pedestrian
friendly than smaller cars. I think it's more resentment directed at the
people who drive them - the Paris equivelent of the 'Chelsea Tractor'
brigade.

I'll answer this in more detail later, but for the moment: rubbish.
Quoting from memory (as I don't have the details in front of me), I
believe the big 4x4s like the BMWs and the Mercedes pollute four or five
times more than an estate or a saloon *. The 'bull bars' with which
these cars are fitted, regularly cause serious injury to pedestrians,
and their sheer size means that they take up 1,5 parking spaces in a
city like Paris, where it's already difficult to park.

I'm off out, but will check out the above when I get back.

* to be checked later ..

[Buzby]

Post by g***@zeouane.org

Post by Buzby

Post by genuine_froggie

Post by Krusty
Now I understand why you want to move out of Paris. I would too if I
lived in a city ruled by a mayor who was that stupid & bigotted.

4X4s pollute. They aren't needed. They're dangerous.
End of story.

You do spout some bollocks from time to time.
Whilst I'd agree with you their potential is wasted in town, they don't
necessarily pollute more than a 4x2, and also is some cases more pedestrian
friendly than smaller cars. I think it's more resentment directed at the
people who drive them - the Paris equivelent of the 'Chelsea Tractor'
brigade.

I'll answer this in more detail later, but for the moment: rubbish.
Quoting from memory (as I don't have the details in front of me), I
believe the big 4x4s like the BMWs and the Mercedes pollute four or five
times more than an estate or a saloon *. The 'bull bars' with which
these cars are fitted, regularly cause serious injury to pedestrians,
and their sheer size means that they take up 1,5 parking spaces in a
city like Paris, where it's already difficult to park.
I'm off out, but will check out the above when I get back.

For example BMW X5 wheelbase is 111 inches, BMW 5 Series 113 inches. I
assume the overhangs will be roughly similar. So not much in that argument
then is there.

Post by g***@zeouane.org
* to be checked later ..

Can't wait.

[Krusty]

Post by g***@zeouane.org

Post by genuine_froggie

Post by Krusty
Now I understand why you want to move out of Paris. I would too

if I >> lived in a city ruled by a mayor who was that stupid &
bigotted.

Post by genuine_froggie
4X4s pollute. They aren't needed. They're dangerous.
End of story.

You do spout some bollocks from time to time.
Whilst I'd agree with you their potential is wasted in town, they
don't necessarily pollute more than a 4x2, and also is some cases
more pedestrian friendly than smaller cars. I think it's more
resentment directed at the people who drive them - the Paris
equivelent of the 'Chelsea Tractor' brigade.

I'll answer this in more detail later, but for the moment: rubbish.
Quoting from memory (as I don't have the details in front of me), I
believe the big 4x4s like the BMWs and the Mercedes pollute four or
five times more than an estate or a saloon *.

The pollution is directly related to the vehicle's weight for city
driving. Stick the same engine in a light 4x4 & heavy saloon, & the
saloon will pollute more. Target the cars that pollute if you must, but
basing it on body style & number of driven wheels is just stupid.

Post by g***@zeouane.org
The 'bull bars' with
which these cars are fitted, regularly cause serious injury to
pedestrians

Would these be the same pedestrians who you regularly say should be
killed when they walk out in front of the traffic? Of course you could
just ban non-pedestrian friendly bull bars like they did in the UK
years ago.

Just for info, the BMW X5 has the same NCAP pedestrian safety rating as
the much smaller 1 series, & the Merc ML 4x4 has the same rating as the
E class.

Post by g***@zeouane.org
and their sheer size means that they take up 1,5 parking
spaces in a city like Paris, where it's already difficult to park.

Their footprint is usually no bigger than a family saloon, & smaller
than an estate.

Admit it, it's nothing more than prejudice.

[d***@sticky.co.uk]

Krusty wrote:
[4x4s]

Post by Krusty
Their footprint is usually no bigger than a family saloon, & smaller
than an estate.

Our 4x4 (Jeep Cherokee) has a smaller footprint than a Ford Focus. Yet
people think a Jeep is a "big 4x4".

It gets taken "out of town" all the time, and it's been off-road (well,
on grass and mud rather than real off-roading) a few times.

Of course, around town I always have it in 2x4 mode, so it's not
polluting.

[dwb]

Post by d***@sticky.co.uk
[4x4s]

Post by Krusty
Their footprint is usually no bigger than a family saloon, & smaller
than an estate.

Our 4x4 (Jeep Cherokee) has a smaller footprint than a Ford Focus. Yet
people think a Jeep is a "big 4x4".
It gets taken "out of town" all the time, and it's been off-road
(well, on grass and mud rather than real off-roading) a few times.
Of course, around town I always have it in 2x4 mode, so it's not
polluting.

2x4 mode seems apt.

[d***@sticky.co.uk]

Post by dwb

Post by d***@sticky.co.uk
Of course, around town I always have it in 2x4 mode, so it's not
polluting.

2x4 mode seems apt.

heh. I don't have bull-bars on it either, mind. It has running boards,
though which I think look jolly spiffy.

[Phil Launchbury]

Post by d***@sticky.co.uk
heh. I don't have bull-bars on it either, mind. It has running boards,
though which I think look jolly spiffy.

Indeed. We have those on our Voyager and now Voyagers that don't have
them look somehow.. wrong.

Phil

[Krusty]

Post by d***@sticky.co.uk
[4x4s]

Post by Krusty
Their footprint is usually no bigger than a family saloon, & smaller
than an estate.

Our 4x4 (Jeep Cherokee) has a smaller footprint than a Ford Focus. Yet
people think a Jeep is a "big 4x4".

Indeed, I've got one too. Well two actually, but t'other one's a '70s
behemoth. Doesn't pollute much mind as it hasn't turned a wheel for
several years.

Post by d***@sticky.co.uk
It gets taken "out of town" all the time, and it's been off-road
(well, on grass and mud rather than real off-roading) a few times.

Mine gets used for real off-roading - looks very natty with the spare
set of wheels with huge knobbly tyres on.

Post by d***@sticky.co.uk
Of course, around town I always have it in 2x4 mode, so it's not
polluting.

I only use 4x4 when I need it. 4x2 is much more fun on the road,
especially on wet roundabouts :-)

[d***@sticky.co.uk]

Krusty wrote:
[Jeep]

Post by Krusty
Mine gets used for real off-roading - looks very natty with the spare
set of wheels with huge knobbly tyres on.

What sort of off-road tyres do you have on it? I was vaguely toying
with the idea of getting a spare set of wheels and knobblies.

[Krusty]

Post by d***@sticky.co.uk
[Jeep]

Post by Krusty
Mine gets used for real off-roading - looks very natty with the
spare set of wheels with huge knobbly tyres on.

What sort of off-road tyres do you have on it? I was vaguely toying
with the idea of getting a spare set of wheels and knobblies.

Bronco Diamond Backs - http://www.bronco4x4.com/broncosport.html
They're fitted to the standard wheels, & the road tyres are on a set of
5-spoke alloys.

[darsy]

Post by Krusty

Post by d***@sticky.co.uk
What sort of off-road tyres do you have on it? I was vaguely toying
with the idea of getting a spare set of wheels and knobblies.

Bronco Diamond Backs - http://www.bronco4x4.com/broncosport.html
They're fitted to the standard wheels, & the road tyres are on a set of
5-spoke alloys.

two more questions:

How badly do knobblies effect ride and handling when on-road? &

Any suggestions for a source of a cheap extra set of wheels?

[Krusty]

Post by darsy

Post by Krusty

Post by d***@sticky.co.uk
What sort of off-road tyres do you have on it? I was vaguely
toying with the idea of getting a spare set of wheels and
knobblies.

Bronco Diamond Backs - http://www.bronco4x4.com/broncosport.html
They're fitted to the standard wheels, & the road tyres are on a set

of

Post by Krusty
5-spoke alloys.

How badly do knobblies effect ride and handling when on-road?

They don't seem to affect the ride, but are obviously less grippy. I
take it very easy on the road with them so as not to wear them out. The
main problem's the noise - they whine like buggery.

Post by darsy
Any suggestions for a source of a cheap extra set of wheels?

My 5-spokes were £50 each new. I can't find the receipt & can't
remember where I got them from though.

[Eddie]

Post by Krusty

Post by darsy
How badly do knobblies effect ride and handling when on-road?

They don't seem to affect the ride, but are obviously less grippy. I
take it very easy on the road with them so as not to wear them out. The
main problem's the noise - they whine like buggery.

I've got dual-purpose tyres on our 4WD - equally crap on and off road.
They don't half make a racket once you get up to 75mph, like a
resonating hum.

Post by Krusty

Post by darsy
Any suggestions for a source of a cheap extra set of wheels?

My 5-spokes were £50 each new. I can't find the receipt & can't
remember where I got them from though.

Sets come up on eBay quite often, I think.

[TOG@toil [e-mail]]

Post by darsy
How badly do knobblies effect ride and handling when on-road? &
Any suggestions for a source of a cheap extra set of wheels?

A dark night, a jack, a decent wheelbrace, and someone else's Jeep?

[darsy]

Post by ***@toil ***@btinternet.com

Post by darsy
Any suggestions for a source of a cheap extra set of wheels?

A dark night, a jack, a decent wheelbrace, and someone else's Jeep?

heh. On a related note - any recommendations for a decent (but cheap)
car jack? The OE one with the Jeep is a bit pants - ideally for my
purposes (i.e. frequent wheel changes) I'd want something capable of
lifting two wheels off the ground at a time.

[Ace]

Post by darsy
heh. On a related note - any recommendations for a decent (but cheap)
car jack? The OE one with the Jeep is a bit pants - ideally for my
purposes (i.e. frequent wheel changes) I'd want something capable of
lifting two wheels off the ground at a time.

Dunno where you'd get them in the UK, but over here you can get a mini
hydraulic jack for about a tenner in most supermarkets or car spares
places. Get a couple of these and you're sorted. SWL 2 Tonnes, IIRC.
Takes about ten seconds to jeck up the Volvo.

[Simes]

Post by Ace

Post by darsy
heh. On a related note - any recommendations for a decent (but
cheap) car jack? The OE one with the Jeep is a bit pants - ideally
for my purposes (i.e. frequent wheel changes) I'd want something
capable of lifting two wheels off the ground at a time.

Dunno where you'd get them in the UK, but over here you can get a mini
hydraulic jack for about a tenner in most supermarkets or car spares
places. Get a couple of these and you're sorted. SWL 2 Tonnes, IIRC.
Takes about ten seconds to jeck up the Volvo.

The cheap ones are often not strong enough (despite the claimed SWL) or
tall enough to lift a 4X4.

I just bought a superb 'Rocket lift' Sealy trolly jack (like this one
http://www.worldofpower.co.uk/acatalog/Sealey_Workshop_Gifts.html (2nd
pic down) for 75 quid from our local motor factors.

[Krusty]

Post by Simes

Post by Ace

Post by darsy
heh. On a related note - any recommendations for a decent (but
cheap) car jack? The OE one with the Jeep is a bit pants - ideally
for my purposes (i.e. frequent wheel changes) I'd want something
capable of lifting two wheels off the ground at a time.

Dunno where you'd get them in the UK, but over here you can get a
mini hydraulic jack for about a tenner in most supermarkets or car
spares places. Get a couple of these and you're sorted. SWL 2
Tonnes, IIRC. Takes about ten seconds to jeck up the Volvo.

The cheap ones are often not strong enough (despite the claimed SWL)
or tall enough to lift a 4X4.

They're fine for doing one corner at a time under the axle, but aren't
high enough to do a side lift.

[Simes]

Post by Krusty

Post by Simes

Post by Ace

Post by darsy
heh. On a related note - any recommendations for a decent (but
cheap) car jack? The OE one with the Jeep is a bit pants -
ideally for my purposes (i.e. frequent wheel changes) I'd want
something capable of lifting two wheels off the ground at a
time.

Dunno where you'd get them in the UK, but over here you can get a
mini hydraulic jack for about a tenner in most supermarkets or car
spares places. Get a couple of these and you're sorted. SWL 2
Tonnes, IIRC. Takes about ten seconds to jeck up the Volvo.

The cheap ones are often not strong enough (despite the claimed SWL)
or tall enough to lift a 4X4.

They're fine for doing one corner at a time under the axle, but aren't
high enough to do a side lift.

They creak a bit doing one end though under the diff.

[Ace]

Post by Simes

Post by Ace

Post by darsy
heh. On a related note - any recommendations for a decent (but
cheap) car jack? The OE one with the Jeep is a bit pants - ideally
for my purposes (i.e. frequent wheel changes) I'd want something
capable of lifting two wheels off the ground at a time.

Dunno where you'd get them in the UK, but over here you can get a mini
hydraulic jack for about a tenner in most supermarkets or car spares
places. Get a couple of these and you're sorted. SWL 2 Tonnes, IIRC.
Takes about ten seconds to jeck up the Volvo.

The cheap ones are often not strong enough (despite the claimed SWL) or
tall enough to lift a 4X4.

Well my volvo weighs a ton (and is 4WD as it happens, although I
accept that there's possibly less suspension travel than some of the
bigger types). Never had a problem with it.

Post by Simes
I just bought a superb 'Rocket lift' Sealy trolly jack (like this one
http://www.worldofpower.co.uk/acatalog/Sealey_Workshop_Gifts.html (2nd
pic down) for 75 quid from our local motor factors.

Well it looks a bit tougher and bigger than mine, but given that in
general I use it only twice a year, to swap the winter and summer
tyres, the extra ten seconds per wheel it takes me isn't going to kill
me.

[Simes]

Post by Simes

Post by Ace

Post by darsy
heh. On a related note - any recommendations for a decent (but
cheap) car jack? The OE one with the Jeep is a bit pants -

ideally >> > for my purposes (i.e. frequent wheel changes) I'd want
something >> > capable of lifting two wheels off the ground at a time.

Post by Simes

Post by Ace
Dunno where you'd get them in the UK, but over here you can get a

mini >> hydraulic jack for about a tenner in most supermarkets or car
spares >> places. Get a couple of these and you're sorted. SWL 2
Tonnes, IIRC. >> Takes about ten seconds to jeck up the Volvo.

Post by Simes
The cheap ones are often not strong enough (despite the claimed
SWL) or tall enough to lift a 4X4.

Well my volvo weighs a ton (and is 4WD as it happens, although I
accept that there's possibly less suspension travel than some of the
bigger types). Never had a problem with it.

A ton? That's about half a Range Rover (and Jeep I suspect)... Sir has
a ladies car.

Post by Simes
I just bought a superb 'Rocket lift' Sealy trolly jack (like this one
http://www.worldofpower.co.uk/acatalog/Sealey_Workshop_Gifts.html
(2nd pic down) for 75 quid from our local motor factors.

Well it looks a bit tougher and bigger than mine, but given that in
general I use it only twice a year, to swap the winter and summer
tyres, the extra ten seconds per wheel it takes me isn't going to kill
me.

I like the fact it looks and feels rock solid, so that if I'm stupid
enough to go underneath the rattler (SOSIII) without using axles stands
it's prolly not going to collapse on me.

[Ace]

Post by Simes

Post by Ace
Well my volvo weighs a ton

A ton? That's about half a Range Rover (and Jeep I suspect)... Sir has
a ladies car.

See corrected post. Tha quoted curb weight is something like 1600kg,
IIRC.

[Ace]

Post by Simes

Post by Ace

Post by darsy
heh. On a related note - any recommendations for a decent (but
cheap) car jack? The OE one with the Jeep is a bit pants - ideally
for my purposes (i.e. frequent wheel changes) I'd want something
capable of lifting two wheels off the ground at a time.

Dunno where you'd get them in the UK, but over here you can get a mini
hydraulic jack for about a tenner in most supermarkets or car spares
places. Get a couple of these and you're sorted. SWL 2 Tonnes, IIRC.
Takes about ten seconds to jeck up the Volvo.

The cheap ones are often not strong enough (despite the claimed SWL) or
tall enough to lift a 4X4.

Well my volvo weighs a ton and a half (and is 4WD as it happens,
although I accept that there's possibly less suspension travel than
some of the bigger types). Never had a problem with it.

Post by Simes
I just bought a superb 'Rocket lift' Sealy trolly jack (like this one
http://www.worldofpower.co.uk/acatalog/Sealey_Workshop_Gifts.html (2nd
pic down) for 75 quid from our local motor factors.

Well it looks a bit tougher and bigger than mine, but given that in
general I use it only twice a year, to swap the winter and summer
tyres, the extra ten seconds per wheel it takes me isn't going to kill
me.

[Simes]

Post by Simes

Post by Ace

Post by darsy
heh. On a related note - any recommendations for a decent (but
cheap) car jack? The OE one with the Jeep is a bit pants -

ideally >> > for my purposes (i.e. frequent wheel changes) I'd want
something >> > capable of lifting two wheels off the ground at a time.

Post by Simes

Post by Ace
Dunno where you'd get them in the UK, but over here you can get a

mini >> hydraulic jack for about a tenner in most supermarkets or car
spares >> places. Get a couple of these and you're sorted. SWL 2
Tonnes, IIRC. >> Takes about ten seconds to jeck up the Volvo.

Post by Simes
The cheap ones are often not strong enough (despite the claimed
SWL) or tall enough to lift a 4X4.

Well my volvo weighs a ton and a half

Blimey - loaded it up with pies in the last ten minutes?

[Ace]

Post by Simes

Post by Ace
Well my volvo weighs a ton and a half

Blimey - loaded it up with pies in the last ten minutes?

Was a bit late hitting the Cancel button, was all.

[Simes]

Post by Ace

Post by Simes

Post by Ace
Well my volvo weighs a ton and a half

Blimey - loaded it up with pies in the last ten minutes?

Was a bit late hitting the Cancel button, was all.

That's the trouble with www.piesonline.co.uk - they seem to have crap
customer service if you want to cancel.

[Bear]

In article <***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
darsy says...

Post by darsy

Post by ***@toil ***@btinternet.com

Post by darsy
Any suggestions for a source of a cheap extra set of wheels?

A dark night, a jack, a decent wheelbrace, and someone else's Jeep?

heh. On a related note - any recommendations for a decent (but cheap)
car jack? The OE one with the Jeep is a bit pants - ideally for my
purposes (i.e. frequent wheel changes) I'd want something capable of
lifting two wheels off the ground at a time.

Last time I bought a decent trolley jack, it was (shock!) at Halfords.

I'm not proud :(

[darsy]

Post by Bear
Last time I bought a decent trolley jack, it was (shock!) at

Halfords.

Halfords own brand?

I looked at them, 'cos they're definitely cheap, but wasn't sure if
they were considered "good".

[Simes]

Post by Bear

Post by Bear
Last time I bought a decent trolley jack, it was (shock!) at

Halfords.
Halfords own brand?
I looked at them, 'cos they're definitely cheap, but wasn't sure if
they were considered "good".

Bit weedy for a Jeep.

[darsy]

[halfords jack]

Post by Simes

Post by darsy
I looked at them, 'cos they're definitely cheap, but wasn't sure if
they were considered "good".

Bit weedy for a Jeep.

your head is stuck in Landrover mode.

A Jeep Cherokee has the same kerb weight (1490kg) as a Ford Mondeo
(spookily, I guessed it would weight about the same as a Mondeo, but
it's a kg-for-kg match).

[Simes]

Post by darsy
[halfords jack]

Post by Simes

Post by darsy
I looked at them, 'cos they're definitely cheap, but wasn't sure
if they were considered "good".

Bit weedy for a Jeep.

your head is stuck in Landrover mode.
A Jeep Cherokee has the same kerb weight (1490kg) as a Ford Mondeo
(spookily, I guessed it would weight about the same as a Mondeo, but
it's a kg-for-kg match).

Well a tone and a half is still going to smart a bit if it lands on
your toe.

[g***@zeouane.org]

Post by Simes

Post by darsy
[halfords jack]

Post by Simes

Post by darsy
I looked at them, 'cos they're definitely cheap, but wasn't sure
if they were considered "good".

Bit weedy for a Jeep.

your head is stuck in Landrover mode.
A Jeep Cherokee has the same kerb weight (1490kg) as a Ford Mondeo
(spookily, I guessed it would weight about the same as a Mondeo, but
it's a kg-for-kg match).

Well a tone and a half is still going to smart a bit if it lands on
your toe.

That depends where. A Land Cruiser went across my toe once when I was
on the FJR, and it *hurt* .. but not that much.

[darsy]

Post by Simes

Post by darsy
A Jeep Cherokee has the same kerb weight (1490kg) as a Ford Mondeo
(spookily, I guessed it would weight about the same as a Mondeo,
but it's a kg-for-kg match).

Well a tone and a half is still going to smart a bit if it lands on
your toe.

true, true - I was just pointing out that a Jeep is just in
medium-sized car territory for weight (and in small car territory for
footprint).

[Simes]

Post by darsy

Post by Simes

Post by darsy
A Jeep Cherokee has the same kerb weight (1490kg) as a Ford Mondeo
(spookily, I guessed it would weight about the same as a Mondeo,
but it's a kg-for-kg match).

Well a tone and a half is still going to smart a bit if it lands on
your toe.

true, true - I was just pointing out that a Jeep is just in
medium-sized car territory for weight (and in small car territory for
footprint).

So is the SOSIII - only 88" wheelbase and not much longer than the Pan
in total - leetle bit heaver at about 1500kg.

The Range Rover is only 100" wheelbase and about as long as a Mondeo -
a bit heavier at 2040kg last time I bunged in on the weighbridge.

[Bear]

In article <***@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
darsy says...

Post by Bear

Post by Bear
Last time I bought a decent trolley jack, it was (shock!) at

Halfords.
Halfords own brand?

<thinks>

I don't know. It's in Pip's shed ATM.

Post by Bear
I looked at them, 'cos they're definitely cheap, but wasn't sure if
they were considered "good".

Well I have to say this one has made cars and vans go up and down more
than Gillian Taylforth on a bad night, although I've now not used it in
a couple of years. One trick is to always store it fully "dropped", so
there's no stress on the internals, or so I was told.

[Krusty]

Post by darsy

Post by ***@toil ***@btinternet.com

Post by darsy
Any suggestions for a source of a cheap extra set of wheels?

A dark night, a jack, a decent wheelbrace, and someone else's Jeep?

heh. On a related note - any recommendations for a decent (but cheap)
car jack? The OE one with the Jeep is a bit pants - ideally for my
purposes (i.e. frequent wheel changes) I'd want something capable of
lifting two wheels off the ground at a time.

Are your running boards the poser variety or proper rock guards? If the
latter, a high-lift jack would be the way to go, especially if you plan
on doing some serious off-roading.

[darsy]

Post by Krusty
Are your running boards the poser variety or proper rock guards? If the
latter, a high-lift jack would be the way to go, especially if you plan
on doing some serious off-roading.

unfortunately, they're the poser "step on them to climb up into the
high car, granny" types, not the tubular ones.

As to "serious" off-roading, at least at first, I plan to go no more
than "pansy foo foo down some muddy tracks". It's a new-ish[1] VGC car,
and I can't aford to wreck it.

[1] well, it's 5 years old, but it really is in VGC.

[Eddie]

Post by darsy
heh. On a related note - any recommendations for a decent (but cheap)
car jack? The OE one with the Jeep is a bit pants - ideally for my
purposes (i.e. frequent wheel changes) I'd want something capable of
lifting two wheels off the ground at a time.

Trolley jack, Machine Mart.

Unless you want something that's small enough to carry in the car all
the time, in which case you're probably better off getting a bottle jack.

The only problem with jacking up something with decent suspension travel
is that it seems to take for-fucking-ever to get the wheels off the ground.

[darsy]

Post by Eddie

Post by darsy
heh. On a related note - any recommendations for a decent (but cheap)
car jack? The OE one with the Jeep is a bit pants - ideally for my
purposes (i.e. frequent wheel changes) I'd want something capable of
lifting two wheels off the ground at a time.

Trolley jack, Machine Mart.
Unless you want something that's small enough to carry in the car all
the time, in which case you're probably better off getting a bottle jack.

no, this is something to live in the garage, and only to be used when
changing between road and off-road wheels. I can live with the OE jack
for punctures.

Post by Eddie
The only problem with jacking up something with decent suspension travel
is that it seems to take for-fucking-ever to get the wheels off the ground.

The Jeep's not that bad, it's more that the OE jack is so fucking
fiddly to use.

[Simes]

Post by darsy

Post by Krusty

Post by d***@sticky.co.uk
What sort of off-road tyres do you have on it? I was vaguely
toying with the idea of getting a spare set of wheels and
knobblies.

Bronco Diamond Backs - http://www.bronco4x4.com/broncosport.html
They're fitted to the standard wheels, & the road tyres are on a set

of

Post by Krusty
5-spoke alloys.

How badly do knobblies effect ride and handling when on-road? &
Any suggestions for a source of a cheap extra set of wheels?

Ebay - I've bought lots of Land-Rover bits on there, and off-road
wheels for most things pop up regularly - usually complete with tyres.

[darsy]

Post by Krusty
Bronco Diamond Backs - http://www.bronco4x4.com/broncosport.html
They're fitted to the standard wheels, & the road tyres are on a set of
5-spoke alloys.

actually, another question, and a partial answer to one of my other
ones.

I see there are some pretty cheap steel wheels available on that site,
but...

the tyre you recommended doesn't come in the fitment recommendation for
the Jeep (225 or 235/70R15).

What gives?

[Krusty]

Post by darsy

Post by Krusty
Bronco Diamond Backs - http://www.bronco4x4.com/broncosport.html
They're fitted to the standard wheels, & the road tyres are on a set

of

Post by Krusty
5-spoke alloys.

actually, another question, and a partial answer to one of my other
ones.
I see there are some pretty cheap steel wheels available on that site,
but...
the tyre you recommended doesn't come in the fitment recommendation
for the Jeep (225 or 235/70R15).
What gives?

Fitment recommendations are for conformists :-)

[darsy]

Post by Krusty
Fitment recommendations are for conformists :-)

what have you got on yours? Mine's a Mk.2 Cherokee, in case in matters.

Also, any suggestions for somewhere to go/get involved with for someone
thinking about starting to get into off-roading, bearing in mind it's
also my road car, and so I can't wreck it ;-)

Near Herts would be good...

BTW, I think we've done a damn fine job in this sub-thread considering
the OP was anti-4x4 ;-)

[Krusty]

Post by darsy

Post by Krusty
Fitment recommendations are for conformists :-)

what have you got on yours? Mine's a Mk.2 Cherokee, in case in
matters.

Mine's a Mk1. I've got the 215 Broncos on the OE wheels, & 235/75 BFGs
on the 5-spokes.

Post by darsy
Also, any suggestions for somewhere to go/get involved with for
someone thinking about starting to get into off-roading, bearing in
mind it's also my road car, and so I can't wreck it ;-)
Near Herts would be good...

Not really. It's not something you want to be doing on your own, so
finding a club to join or pleading on uk.rec.cars.4x4 would be a good
start.

Post by darsy
BTW, I think we've done a damn fine job in this sub-thread considering
the OP was anti-4x4 ;-)

Heh, nice job.

[darsy]

Post by Krusty

Post by darsy
Also, any suggestions for somewhere to go/get involved with for
someone thinking about starting to get into off-roading, bearing in
mind it's also my road car, and so I can't wreck it ;-)
Near Herts would be good...

Not really. It's not something you want to be doing on your own, so
finding a club to join or pleading on uk.rec.cars.4x4 would be a good
start.

oh, I wasn't thinking of just finding a field or whatever and going for
it on my own - I was looking for suggestions for clubs. There is a Jeep
Club UK, but they appear to be a bunch of silly-arses.

[Eddie]

Post by darsy
Also, any suggestions for somewhere to go/get involved with for someone
thinking about starting to get into off-roading, bearing in mind it's
also my road car, and so I can't wreck it ;-)

I've been thinking about doing that. I mean, playing in the snow is
fine, but it's a bit limited as there's only a few occassions per year
when it's possible.

I think local 4WD owners clubs are the place to look. One near us does
things like hiring quarries for the day so everyone can have a play,
with some experienced people on the hand to make sure that you don't
exceed the capabilities of your vehicle.

[Bear]

Post by Eddie

Post by darsy
Also, any suggestions for somewhere to go/get involved with for someone
thinking about starting to get into off-roading, bearing in mind it's
also my road car, and so I can't wreck it ;-)

I've been thinking about doing that. I mean, playing in the snow is
fine, but it's a bit limited as there's only a few occassions per year
when it's possible.
I think local 4WD owners clubs are the place to look. One near us does
things like hiring quarries for the day so everyone can have a play,
with some experienced people on the hand to make sure that you don't
exceed the capabilities of your vehicle.

Wouldn't your posing palace on wheels fall to bits at the first sight of
serious mud? ;)

If you wanna go off-roading, get something cheap and cheerful, that
someone else has campaigned and already replaced the bits which fall off
easily, IYSWIM.

[Krusty]

Post by darsy

Post by Krusty
Bronco Diamond Backs - http://www.bronco4x4.com/broncosport.html
They're fitted to the standard wheels, & the road tyres are on a set

of

Post by Krusty
5-spoke alloys.

actually, another question, and a partial answer to one of my other
ones.
I see there are some pretty cheap steel wheels available on that site,
but...

Just looked at the wheels, & the ones at the top of the alloys page for
£66.53 look like the ones I've got. I'd go for those with the road
tyres, & stick the knobblies on the OEM wheels if I were you (& budget
allows).

The 5-spokes are much easier to clean, & do look much nicer than the
standard wheels.

[darsy]

Post by Krusty
The 5-spokes are much easier to clean, & do look much nicer than the
standard wheels.

I have multispoke (OE) alloys on at the moment - they look fine as road
wheels, but they'd be a bit of a cunt to clean a lot of much out off.

[Simes]

Post by darsy

Post by Krusty
The 5-spokes are much easier to clean, & do look much nicer than the
standard wheels.

I have multispoke (OE) alloys on at the moment - they look fine as
road wheels, but they'd be a bit of a cunt to clean a lot of much out
off.

Steel wheels are better off road - if you catch a rock or a stump they
are less likely to break - they just bend and can be hammered straight
again to get you home.

[Ace]

Post by Simes
Steel wheels are better off road - if you catch a rock or a stump they
are less likely to break - they just bend and can be hammered straight
again to get you home.

Similarly I have steel wheels for the winter tyres. They're also an
inch smaller, allowing a much wider, and cheaper, choice of snow tyres
(higher profile, of course).

[darsy]

Post by Simes

Post by darsy

Post by Krusty
The 5-spokes are much easier to clean, & do look much nicer than the
standard wheels.

I have multispoke (OE) alloys on at the moment - they look fine as
road wheels, but they'd be a bit of a cunt to clean a lot of much out
off.

Steel wheels are better off road - if you catch a rock or a stump they
are less likely to break - they just bend and can be hammered

straight

Post by Simes
again to get you home.

I thought that might be the case. Steel wheels are also quite a bit
cheaper.

[Simes]

Post by Simes

Post by Simes
Steel wheels are better off road - if you catch a rock or a stump

they

Post by Simes
are less likely to break - they just bend and can be hammered

straight

Post by Simes
again to get you home.

I thought that might be the case. Steel wheels are also quite a bit
cheaper.

Yes - cos the posers don't know that they are better.

[Alan]

Post by Simes

Post by Simes

Post by Simes
Steel wheels are better off road - if you catch a rock or a stump

they

Post by Simes
are less likely to break - they just bend and can be hammered

straight

Post by Simes
again to get you home.

I thought that might be the case. Steel wheels are also quite a bit
cheaper.

Yes - cos the posers don't know that they are better.

Whilst reading the above discussion on the finer points of 4X4 ownership
I couldn't help thinking back to the Fast Show sketches with Paul
Whitehouse as the cammo wearing nerd and the other guy as the wannabe
redneck :)

Sorry

[Ace]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:30:45 +0000 (UTC), Alan

Post by Alan
Whilst reading the above discussion on the finer points of 4X4 ownership
I couldn't help thinking back to the Fast Show sketches with Paul
Whitehouse as the cammo wearing nerd and the other guy as the wannabe
redneck :)

"Let's offroad!"

Post by Alan
Sorry

Don't be. I'm sure you're not alone in seeing Simes and Darsy as those
two.

[Simes]

Post by Ace
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:30:45 +0000 (UTC), Alan

Post by Alan
Whilst reading the above discussion on the finer points of 4X4
ownership I couldn't help thinking back to the Fast Show sketches
with Paul Whitehouse as the cammo wearing nerd and the other guy as
the wannabe redneck :)

"Let's offroad!"

It's gripped.

Post by Ace

Post by Alan
Sorry

Don't be. I'm sure you're not alone in seeing Simes and Darsy as those
two.

Sadly when I had my beard I was a dead ringer for the (ermmm..) bearded
one...

I shave every day now.

[AndyW]

Post by Ace
"Let's offroad!"

Ace in knowledge of popular culture shocker!!

Post by Ace
Don't be. I'm sure you're not alone in seeing Simes and Darsy as those
two.

The really scary thing is that I've been along to a 4x4 off road club
or two and that skit is really far, far too close to reality for
comfort.

[Bear]

In article <***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
AndyW says...

Post by AndyW
The really scary thing is that I've been along to a 4x4 off road club
or two and that skit is really far, far too close to reality for
comfort.

A mate of an ex of mine was *big* into off-road. We all went to a few
events together, and I was able to watch some of the "characters" at
first hand.

The first thing I noticed was that biking is not the worst "all the
gear, no idea" activity on planet earth; off-road is. Mike would turf up
in his *totally* shonky-looking SWB Jeep (or whatever it was, I've
forgotten, could have been a SWB Landie), which looked like a mobile
wrecker's yard, and proceed to get quality top-5 finishes, all day long.
Indeed the top 5 *never* seemed to have any new, flashy 4x4s in it. The
way Mike explained it, off-road has very little to do with performance,
since you could maintain those low speeds with next to no power/torque.
What mattered was suspension (his shonky shed-on-wheels, which cost him
about £1,500 to put together, concealed some very good components) and
driving ability.

The second thing that quite weirded me out was how much the "big money,
low talent" crowd looked and sounded like each other. This was before
the Fast Show, but it was eerily accurate; all the talk was of "monster
hills", "bitches of a incline" and "total mother of a splash" (I may
have got the terminology wrong). It got to the point where I could quite
happily bluff my way through a chat with one of them, without having the
first idea what I was on about ... ok, not strictly true, since I used
to do a lot of off-road driving (as opposed to competition) in the US,
but still.

And the "flash with cash" crowd absolutely *did not* talk or associate
with the "cruddy but quick" crowd. Absolutely extraordinary. I asked
Mike why they bothered turning up, and he reckoned it was to get their
4x4s muddy for the drive to work on Monday. Every once in a while one of
"Team Clean" (as he called them) would start to ask questions of the
fast boys (who were very helpful if approached, it's just they rarely
were); listen, learn, and often go out and buy something shonky and
start to *drive*.

This was a good few years ago, so things have probably changed by now,
but I recall being somewhat shocked at the division.

[AndyW]

Post by Bear
The first thing I noticed was that biking is not the worst "all the
gear, no idea" activity on planet earth; off-road is

Heh. It's a factor in so many sports and activities..Micheal Green
wrote in the Art of Course Rugby (IIRC) how the no hopers in the Extra
B would lug huge kitbags around with them containing every rugby
playing extra known to man, while the ace player from the A team would
stroll in with his shirt and shorts in an old carier bag and casually
ask if anyone could lend him a pair of boots.

[Bear]

In article <***@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
AndyW says...

Post by AndyW

Post by Bear
The first thing I noticed was that biking is not the worst "all the
gear, no idea" activity on planet earth; off-road is

Heh. It's a factor in so many sports and activities..

Yeah, but a £30K+ 4x4?! :)

[Simes]

Post by Bear
And the "flash with cash" crowd absolutely *did not* talk or
associate with the "cruddy but quick" crowd. Absolutely
extraordinary. I asked Mike why they bothered turning up, and he
reckoned it was to get their 4x4s muddy for the drive to work on
Monday. Every once in a while one of "Team Clean" (as he called them)
would start to ask questions of the fast boys (who were very helpful
if approached, it's just they rarely were); listen, learn, and often
go out and buy something shonky and start to drive.
This was a good few years ago, so things have probably changed by
now, but I recall being somewhat shocked at the division.

Things haven't chaged at all. The 'shinies' talk the talk and the
rattlers walk the walk.

Partly I guess it's down to the fact that something you've built for
1500 quid is something you can rebuild for 1500 quid. A 20 grand 4X4
owner wont know where the windscreen washer fluid goes, let alone how
to change a half-shaft in a muddy lane.

[Eddie]

Post by darsy
I thought that might be the case. Steel wheels are also quite a bit
cheaper.

# Wheeeeeeeee-els, wheels of steel!

[AndyW]

Post by Eddie
# Wheeeeeeeee-els, wheels of steel!

Stealers Wheel?

[Champ]

Post by Eddie

Post by darsy
I thought that might be the case. Steel wheels are also quite a bit
cheaper.

# Wheeeeeeeee-els, wheels of steel!

heh. You utter, utter, throwback.

[Krusty]

Post by Simes

Post by darsy

Post by Krusty
The 5-spokes are much easier to clean, & do look much nicer than
the standard wheels.

I have multispoke (OE) alloys on at the moment - they look fine as
road wheels, but they'd be a bit of a cunt to clean a lot of much
out off.

Steel wheels are better off road - if you catch a rock or a stump they
are less likely to break - they just bend and can be hammered straight
again to get you home.

I agree in principle, but it's very unlikely to be a problem ime unless
you're into serious rock-crawling[1] on low-pressure tyres. After all
MX & enduro bikes have alloy rims.


[1] http://www.rockcrawler.com/

[Simes]

Post by Krusty

Post by Simes

Post by darsy

Post by Krusty
The 5-spokes are much easier to clean, & do look much nicer than
the standard wheels.

I have multispoke (OE) alloys on at the moment - they look fine as
road wheels, but they'd be a bit of a cunt to clean a lot of much
out off.

Steel wheels are better off road - if you catch a rock or a stump
they are less likely to break - they just bend and can be hammered
straight again to get you home.

I agree in principle, but it's very unlikely to be a problem ime
unless you're into serious rock-crawling[1] on low-pressure tyres.
After all MX & enduro bikes have alloy rims.

Aren't they extruded alloy rims though? Car rims tend to be cast and a
lot more brittle.

I must admit I've whacked the rims off road on occasion - whether it
would have broken a cast rim I don't know, I doubt it somehow, but
there's a certain understated style about a nicely rusting set of steel
wheels.

[Krusty]

Post by Simes

Post by Krusty

Post by Simes

Post by darsy

Post by Krusty
The 5-spokes are much easier to clean, & do look much nicer
than the standard wheels.

I have multispoke (OE) alloys on at the moment - they look fine
as road wheels, but they'd be a bit of a cunt to clean a lot of
much out off.

Steel wheels are better off road - if you catch a rock or a stump
they are less likely to break - they just bend and can be hammered
straight again to get you home.

I agree in principle, but it's very unlikely to be a problem ime
unless you're into serious rock-crawling[1] on low-pressure tyres.
After all MX & enduro bikes have alloy rims.

Aren't they extruded alloy rims though? Car rims tend to be cast and
a lot more brittle.

Ah, as you were then. Although I must've bashed my alloys many times,
especially on the rockfest that is Sarn Helen, & they've haven't
exploded yet (touches wood).

[TOG@toil [e-mail]]

Post by Simes
I must admit I've whacked the rims off road on occasion - whether it
would have broken a cast rim I don't know, I doubt it somehow, but
there's a certain understated style about a nicely rusting set of steel
wheels.

<Points at Benly>

[flash]

Post by d***@sticky.co.uk
[Jeep]

Post by Krusty
Mine gets used for real off-roading - looks very natty with the spare
set of wheels with huge knobbly tyres on.

What sort of off-road tyres do you have on it? I was vaguely toying
with the idea of getting a spare set of wheels and knobblies.

So you *are* getting an allotment then? Top stuff. I can get you a good deal
on the plough attachment.

[g***@zeouane.org]

Post by Krusty

Post by d***@sticky.co.uk
Our 4x4 (Jeep Cherokee) has a smaller footprint than a Ford Focus. Yet
people think a Jeep is a "big 4x4".

Indeed, I've got one too. Well two actually, but t'other one's a '70s
behemoth. Doesn't pollute much mind as it hasn't turned a wheel for
several years.

Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!

I *wondered* why such an .... aggressive response to my first post.

[Krusty]

Post by g***@zeouane.org

Post by Krusty

Post by d***@sticky.co.uk
Our 4x4 (Jeep Cherokee) has a smaller footprint than a Ford
Focus. Yet people think a Jeep is a "big 4x4".

Indeed, I've got one too. Well two actually, but t'other one's a
'70s behemoth. Doesn't pollute much mind as it hasn't turned a
wheel for several years.

Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!
I wondered why such an .... aggressive response to my first post.

Absolutely nothing to do with it - you would've got the same response a
few years ago before I got the Jeep. And it wasn't aggressive -
certainly not compared to your response to Ace, which was completely
unfounded as 4x4 Scenics have been around for years & aren't "large", &
the new Scenic in development (a rebadged Nissan) isn't large either.

It is something that pisses me off as it's a totally unjustified
reaction brought on by prejudice, much the same as the ongoing attempts
to ban all forms of recreational & competitive off-roading in this
country.

[TOG@toil [e-mail]]

Post by g***@zeouane.org
Quoting from memory (as I don't have the details in front of me), I
believe the big 4x4s like the BMWs and the Mercedes pollute four or five
times more than an estate or a saloon *. The 'bull bars' with which
these cars are fitted, regularly cause serious injury to pedestrians,
and their sheer size means that they take up 1,5 parking spaces in a
city like Paris, where it's already difficult to park.
I'm off out, but will check out the above when I get back.

I'm coming in on this one, vecause I'm close to giving you a fair
break, and I want to see if you can marshal a decent argument without
being (a) exceptionally bigoted and (b) using it as a snipe vehicle and
(c) anything else, really.

The simple questions are these

1. Why should (for example) a three-litre six-cylinder engine used in a
BMW or Merc4x4 pollute four or five times as much as the same engine in
a large BMW or Merc saloon or estate car of equivalent weight?

2. Why does the length of a 4x4 matter, when many saloon or estate cars
are actually *longer*?

3. Here does one draw the line on 4x4s? Subaru Foresters? Fiat Panda
4x4s? Renault Kangoo 4x4s (I mention this because I drove one rceently
and it was an absolutel *hoot*)

The bull bars issue is something on which I agree.

[g***@zeouane.org]

Post by ***@toil ***@btinternet.com

Post by g***@zeouane.org
Quoting from memory (as I don't have the details in front of me), I
believe the big 4x4s like the BMWs and the Mercedes pollute four or

five

Post by g***@zeouane.org
times more than an estate or a saloon *. The 'bull bars' with which
these cars are fitted, regularly cause serious injury to pedestrians,
and their sheer size means that they take up 1,5 parking spaces in a
city like Paris, where it's already difficult to park.
I'm off out, but will check out the above when I get back.

I'm coming in on this one, vecause I'm close to giving you a fair
break, and I want to see if you can marshal a decent argument without
being (a) exceptionally bigoted and (b) using it as a snipe vehicle and
(c) anything else, really.

Well, it's nice to be 'rehabilitated' by a group heavyweight. It was
getting pretty lonely out here in 'in the wilderness'. :-\ Plus, as
you're the first UKRMer to have spoken to me at Caudebec, and as I found
you tout à fait affable and friendly, I must confess that the
'virulence' of some of your responses over the past year or so, have
been somewhat disappointing. Still, know that as far as I'm aware, I've
_never_ expressed bigotry. Arrogant, opinionated, stubborn, yes. But
I'm not, as far as I can ascertain, a bigot. Unless we have _very_
different opinions on what the word means.

Nor do I 'snipe' without provocation.

Anyway .. this will have to do as a 'grouped' reply, as I've got stuff
to take care of here.

Post by ***@toil ***@btinternet.com
The simple questions are these
1. Why should (for example) a three-litre six-cylinder engine used in a
BMW or Merc4x4 pollute four or five times as much as the same engine in
a large BMW or Merc saloon or estate car of equivalent weight?

It doesn't, AFAIK. Those cars should also be 'banned'. But in my case
at least, it's not a case of 'prejudice' (not this time, anyway ...
;-)), as if it were, I'd want 4x4s banned, _per se_. I don't. I just
want the cunts out of my city.

Post by ***@toil ***@btinternet.com
2. Why does the length of a 4x4 matter, when many saloon or estate cars
are actually *longer*?

Granted.

Post by ***@toil ***@btinternet.com
3. Here does one draw the line on 4x4s? Subaru Foresters? Fiat Panda
4x4s? Renault Kangoo 4x4s (I mention this because I drove one rceently
and it was an absolutel *hoot*)

Paris a small city compared to, say, London. Large cars, HGVs (indeed,
they're banned), 7.5 tonners or whatever .. have _no_ place here.
IMN-S-HO, of course.

Post by ***@toil ***@btinternet.com
The bull bars issue is something on which I agree.

Good. My main 'beef' with 4x4s was illustrated by a radio talk-in
wotsit on France-Info when this news first broke that Delanoë wanted to
keep 4x4s out. 'They're great for security !' bleated one caller, a 4x4
owner. I was busy tapping out a response to be sent via SMS when
someone (a biker too) beat me to it, with, 'If they're so great for
security, why do I spend my days in Paris trying to avoid being
sideswiped by them ?'

I'm off for the evening.

[Ace]

Post by Buzby

Post by genuine_froggie
4X4s pollute. They aren't needed. They're dangerous.
End of story.

You do spout some bollocks from time to time.

I think I now see what this thread is about, despite my best efforts
to ignore it.

The real motivation behind proposed banning of large 4X4s in parts of
France is simple - neither Peugeot/Citroen nor Renault feature such
models in their line-ups, hence banning them will mean a net increase
in purchases of fog-built cars.

[g***@zeouane.org]

Post by Ace

Post by Buzby

Post by genuine_froggie
4X4s pollute. They aren't needed. They're dangerous.
End of story.

You do spout some bollocks from time to time.

I think I now see what this thread is about, despite my best efforts
to ignore it.
The real motivation behind proposed banning of large 4X4s in parts of
France is simple - neither Peugeot/Citroen nor Renault feature such
models in their line-ups, hence banning them will mean a net increase
in purchases of fog-built cars.

Which is why Renault are presently preparing a Scénic 4x4, I assume.

You _fucking_ thick cunt.

[JackH]

Post by g***@zeouane.org

Post by Ace

Post by Buzby

Post by genuine_froggie
4X4s pollute. They aren't needed. They're dangerous.
End of story.

You do spout some bollocks from time to time.

I think I now see what this thread is about, despite my best efforts
to ignore it.
The real motivation behind proposed banning of large 4X4s in parts of
France is simple - neither Peugeot/Citroen nor Renault feature such
models in their line-ups, hence banning them will mean a net increase
in purchases of fog-built cars.

Which is why Renault are presently preparing a Scénic 4x4, I assume.

They did one before, I'm sure - it had plain plastic wheel arches and was
raised compared to the standard models.

Not that they're particularly big, mind...

--
JackH

Fazer 600

[Ace]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:47:10 +0100, "JackH"

Post by JackH
Not that they're particularly big, mind...

*ding*

[DanTXD]

Post by g***@zeouane.org

Post by Ace

Post by Buzby

Post by genuine_froggie
4X4s pollute. They aren't needed. They're dangerous.
End of story.

You do spout some bollocks from time to time.

I think I now see what this thread is about, despite my best efforts
to ignore it.
The real motivation behind proposed banning of large 4X4s in parts of
France is simple - neither Peugeot/Citroen nor Renault feature such
models in their line-ups, hence banning them will mean a net increase
in purchases of fog-built cars.

Which is why Renault are presently preparing a Scénic 4x4, I assume.

But thats just a 4wd people carrier - not a 4wd off roader. And the last
one they made was such a heap of crap no one will buy one anyway.

The big BMW/Merc 4x4's pollute no more than then their equals in the saloon
line ups. An M5 and an SL55 AMG are hardly good on fuel... (working on the
basis of price, top model to top model)

And what about things like an Evo FQ400? Are they being banned on the basis
of 10mpg and 4x4?

[TOG@toil [e-mail]]

Post by g***@zeouane.org

Post by Ace

Post by Buzby

Post by genuine_froggie
4X4s pollute. They aren't needed. They're dangerous.
End of story.

You do spout some bollocks from time to time.

I think I now see what this thread is about, despite my best

efforts

Post by g***@zeouane.org

Post by Ace
to ignore it.
The real motivation behind proposed banning of large 4X4s in parts of
France is simple - neither Peugeot/Citroen nor Renault feature such
models in their line-ups, hence banning them will mean a net

increase

Post by g***@zeouane.org

Post by Ace
in purchases of fog-built cars.

Which is why Renault are presently preparing a Scénic 4x4, I assume.
You _fucking_ thick cunt.

Ahem. Renault has had a Scenic 4x4 for *years*, but it's not a *big*
4x4. It's a Focus-sized platform. Renault, as I've said elsewhere, has
a Kangoo 4x4. That's even smaller.

No French builder, that I'm aware of, makes anything to compete with
the likes of an X class, M class, Land Cruiser, Shogun, Range
Rover......

[Ace]

Stuff <snipped>

I say TOG, any chance you could snip the quoted insults please? I
really don't want to see them. Ta.

[TOG@toil [e-mail]]

Post by Ace

Stuff <snipped>

I say TOG, any chance you could snip the quoted insults please? I
really don't want to see them. Ta.

Don't *you* start.

[g***@zeouane.org]

Post by Ace

Stuff <snipped>

I say TOG, any chance you could snip the quoted insults please? I
really don't want to see them. Ta.

You mean the 'quoted statements of opinion' ?

[g***@zeouane.org]

Post by ***@toil ***@btinternet.com
No French builder, that I'm aware of, makes anything to compete with
the likes of an X class, M class, Land Cruiser, Shogun, Range
Rover......

Another reason to love France, you mean ..?

[TOG@toil [e-mail]]

Post by g***@zeouane.org

Post by ***@toil ***@btinternet.com
No French builder, that I'm aware of, makes anything to compete with
the likes of an X class, M class, Land Cruiser, Shogun, Range
Rover......

Another reason to love France, you mean ..?

Have you come across anything to back you assertion that a 4x4 pollutes
five times as much as a comparable estate or saloon?

Just asking, like.......

ATTENTION! THIS IS NOT A DRILL!

[Buzby]

Post by Ace

Post by Buzby

Post by genuine_froggie
4X4s pollute. They aren't needed. They're dangerous.
End of story.

You do spout some bollocks from time to time.

I think I now see what this thread is about, despite my best efforts
to ignore it.
The real motivation behind proposed banning of large 4X4s in parts of
France is simple - neither Peugeot/Citroen nor Renault feature such
models in their line-ups, hence banning them will mean a net increase
in purchases of fog-built cars.

That's what I really admire about the French. We could do with more of that
attitude here.

[Bear]

Post by Buzby

Post by Ace
The real motivation behind proposed banning of large 4X4s in parts of
France is simple - neither Peugeot/Citroen nor Renault feature such
models in their line-ups, hence banning them will mean a net increase
in purchases of fog-built cars.

That's what I really admire about the French. We could do with more of that
attitude here.

Yeah, legislation through envy rocks.

[flash]

Post by Ace
banning them will mean a net increase
in purchases of fog-built cars.

I must have mist that.

[Ace]

Post by flash

Post by Ace
banning them will mean a net increase
in purchases of fog-built cars.

I must have mist that.

Head in the clouds...

[g***@zeouane.org]

Post by Ace

Post by flash

Post by Ace
banning them will mean a net increase
in purchases of fog-built cars.

I must have mist that.

Head in the clouds...

I'd hate to precipitate things...

[JackH]

Post by g***@zeouane.org
<http://motoring.independent.co.uk/comment/story.jsp?story=628460>

Shouldn't you be reading Le Monde etc?

--
JackH

Fazer 600

[genuine_froggie]

Post by JackH

Post by g***@zeouane.org
<http://motoring.independent.co.uk/comment/story.jsp?story=628460>

Shouldn't you be reading Le Monde etc?

I'm waiting for Cab to translate it for me.

[TimP]

Post by g***@zeouane.org
<http://motoring.independent.co.uk/comment/story.jsp?story=628460>

I love this bit:

"The notion of the family car is rubbish, 99% of the time there's only
one passenger. It's cheaper to use taxis and public transport, and rent
a car for the holidays."

So in the holidays the roads aren't just full of traffic, but everyone
only drives a couple of times a year so they have absolutely no idea
what they're doing. What a fantastic idea!

[dwb]

Post by TimP
"The notion of the family car is rubbish, 99% of the time there's only
one passenger. It's cheaper to use taxis and public transport, and
rent a car for the holidays."
So in the holidays the roads aren't just full of traffic, but everyone
only drives a couple of times a year so they have absolutely no idea
what they're doing. What a fantastic idea!

It certainly isn't cheaper to use Taxis and public transport in London :-)

[Buzby]

Post by dwb

Post by TimP
"The notion of the family car is rubbish, 99% of the time there's only
one passenger. It's cheaper to use taxis and public transport, and
rent a car for the holidays."
So in the holidays the roads aren't just full of traffic, but everyone
only drives a couple of times a year so they have absolutely no idea
what they're doing. What a fantastic idea!

It certainly isn't cheaper to use Taxis and public transport in London :-)

Black Cab @ 9.30pm cost me £9 from Hilton Park Lane to Marylebone Station
FFS.

[Andrewr At Work]

Post by TimP
"The notion of the family car is rubbish, 99% of the time there's only
one passenger. It's cheaper to use taxis and public transport, and rent
a car for the holidays."
So in the holidays the roads aren't just full of traffic, but everyone
only drives a couple of times a year so they have absolutely no idea
what they're doing. What a fantastic idea!

Not only that but the underlying assumption of that statement is that
the cost of car hire would remain the same as under the current system.

So the hire companies would have to maintain a fleet large enough to be
able to hire them out to a huge proportion of the country during the
peak holiday seasons and then have a massively under-utilised fleet for
the rest of the year.