Islamic paedophiles want more: The Times(London)

[m***@cts.com]

In soc.culture.british Paul <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

=> > "AN Kumar" aka 'new user' <***@city.ac.uk> wrote in message
=> > news:akj32r$g2l$***@canard.ulcc.ac.uk...
=> >> August 28, 2002
=> >>
=
=> > India should just set a common law for everyone, and give the muslims
=> > the
=> > choice of abiding by it, going to prison or leaving for Pakistan.
=
=> > This is ridiculous.
=>
=> Yup.
=>
=> Child Marriage in Nepal
=>
=Is this in some way supposed to justify it?

Of course not, I'm just pointing out that many of your fellow Hindus are
paedophiles and homos.

= Are you a paedo?

No 'Paul'. I am not a Hindu.

http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-aids20-india3.story

"On the auspicious day of the full moon of Magha in 1907, when she was 7
years old, Radha Murali's parents took her to the Saundatti Temple in
Karnataka and gave her to the goddess Yellamma. From that day forward
Murali lived as a Devadasi - never marrying, working as a prostitute and
beggar."

"For centuries, India's lowest castes were - and still are - forced by
poverty to view girl children as onerous financial liabilities.

One traditional response, sanctioned by the Hindu religion and ignored by
..........................================================...............
the government, is to give daughters away to the Dasi (worship) of Dev
(god), or Devadasi."

"Wedded to the deity, the young girl wears a necklace of beads that
signifies she can never marry a mortal, and her hair remains forever
unwashed and uncut. When she reaches puberty, an auction is held and men
bid for the privilege of being the first to touch the virgin child.

The so-called "touching ceremony" today finds two primary groups of
bidders: Brothel owners, and men who have syphilis or gonorrhea. It is
widely believed among India's lower castes that having sex with a virgin
removes sexually transmitted diseases."

[Lower castes? Oh you mean HINDUS]

"All three are prostitutes who offer their customers anal intercourse -
all three are Hijras.

Some of the Hijras worship Yellamma and are Devadasi, but they also have
========================================================================
their own Hindu goddesses, Baitra Mata or Bachucharamata, and perform
=====================================================================
special functions in most major Hindu ceremonies.
================================================

IHO's Gilada said he has discovered that most Hijras were sexually abused
as children, before joining the cult. He believes these abuse episodes -
usually at the hands of an older male - form the psychological basis of
the boys' decisions to live as females."

_________________________________________________________________________

Wake up Paul! Come back to Christ. Don't be a Hindu.

=> --
=> Mullah Harmony: "I am proud member of UK Muslim Parliament"
=
=A completely worthless, but radical organisation that should be banned
=and it's members deported from the UK...

I think its members should be imprisoned for sedition before being
deported.

[Nusrat Rizvi]

NY Times
SATURDAY PROFILE
An Unlikely Promoter of an Islamic Reformation
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS

Published: October 4, 2003


ORONTO — As a Canadian Muslim, Irshad Manji never eats pork, never
drinks alcohol and regularly reads the Koran. Otherwise she is Osama
bin Laden's worst nightmare.

At 35, Ms. Manji, a lesbian intellectual with spiky hair and a sharp
tongue, is an outspoken television journalist who admires Israel and
applauds the American overthrow
of Saddam Hussein. More than that, she has issued a searing critique
of her religion in a new book, "The Trouble with Islam" (Random House
Canada), calling for radical change.
While every religion has its fundamentalists, she notes, "only in
Islam is literalism in the mainstream," a recipe for generating
hatreds that can spawn suicide bombers.
There are other Islamic liberals who say the Sept. 11 attackers did
more than hijack four planes: they hijacked an entire religion. Ms.
Manji goes much further, saying that
Islam has deep-rooted problems with Jews, women, slavery and
authoritarianism that go back centuries. Her goal is a thoroughly
liberal reform, started by Muslims living in the West.
"If ever there was a moment for an Islamic reformation, it's now," she
argues in her book. "If we're sincere about fighting the asphyxiating
despotism" that Al Qaeda seeks to
spread, she adds, "we can't be afraid to ask: What if the Koran isn't
perfect? What if it's not a completely God-authored book? What if it's
riddled with human biases?"

As a longtime broadcaster and public affairs talk-show host on
Canadian television, Ms. Manji, prominent, articulate and telegenic,
with a rapid-fire delivery, has a ready platform for her ideas.
These ideas have already set off a searching debate. In the first
weeks after publication of her book, she has made front-page news
across Canada and received immediate
attention in Germany, where the book was also released. In the next
few months the book will reach the United States (St. Martin's Press),
Australia, other parts of Europe and
most probably Israel. The book has also provoked death threats.

She takes no chances. Conversing in her Toronto living room,
fidgeting, with a cup of spicy Indian tea in hand, Ms. Manji gushes
with arguments as a hefty bodyguard stands on the
porch. She has put bulletproof glass in some windows. She insists that
her house not be described in detail to avoid giving a hint of where
she lives.
Her central call is for Muslims to join her in critical thinking. If
Mohamed Atta, who was well educated in Germany, had grown up with
questions rather than just glib answers,
" she said, "maybe then he would have stepped back before immolating
himself and committing mass murder" on Sept. 11, 2001, in the attacks
that he helped organize.
As much as anything, she emphasizes, her thirst is for inquiry,
something she says she admires in Israeli society. The goal is to
"create conversations where they have never occurred
before."
It is working. The immediate reply is as fiery as her own high-octane
critique.
"The book title should be `The Trouble with Irshad Manji,' " said
Mohamed Elmasry, national president of the Canadian Islamic Congress,
dismissing her as a "media darling."
"She calls herself a good Muslim even though she is a lesbian and a
feminist," he added. "She will have a shadow over her interpretation."
Written in essay form as a conversational letter to "my fellow
Muslims," Ms. Manji tells of her "personal clash of civilizations,"
beginning with her family's flight to Canada in 1972
from her native Uganda when Idi Amin expelled the local East Indian
community. She comes from an upper-middle-class family (her father and
brothers ran a Mercedes-Benz
dealership in Uganda), but also a troubled home in which her father
once chased her with a knife.
A questioning child, she had repeated run-ins with the teacher of her
Islamic school in a Vancouver suburb. She finally became so disgusted
with his anti-Semitic rants, she wrote,
that she bolted from the class.
From that adolescent confrontation came more profound questions that
have grown in urgency to the point where she admits being on the verge
of giving up on Islam. But she
hopes her doubts can help fuel a reform that in turn will bolster her
faith and propel Islamic reform.
The Islam she desires, she says, is akin to the one in which dissent
flourished in the 10th through 13th centuries, when "poets caricatured
religion with court approval," and Jews
and Muslims lived peacefully together in prosperity and
cross-fertilized their cultures.
Indeed Ms. Manji is a product of the expanding diversity encouraged by
Canada's immigration policy. About 600,000 Muslims now live in Canada,
nearly half 24 years old or younger,
according to the 2001 census. "There is a hunger among younger
Muslims for debate and discussion," she said.
Living in a free society like Canada's has allowed Ms. Manji to raise
questions and form her own understanding of Islam, she says. But even
as she applauds Canadian tolerance,
she is critical of liberals who are not tough enough on
fundamentalism. She voices concern that some Islamic schools in Canada
are spreading a brand of intolerant Islam, taught
in parts of the Middle East and Asia, that could breed terrorism here
as well. But if Islam presents a special challenge to the West, Ms.
Manji argues, Western liberalism can also
challenge and change Islam. She says that young Muslims living in the
West are bound to push for more diverse expressions of the religion.
"It is imperative that somehow, some way,
people begin to understand that the West and Islam are not mutually
exclusive," she said.
A freer trade in ideas, she suggests, can be encouraged by investment
in small loans to women living in Muslim countries to help them break
from male domination.
"When I see a woman in Nigeria getting sentenced to 180 lashes for
premarital sex, despite the fact that she's produced several witnesses
confirming that she was raped, it is my
responsibility as a Muslim to speak out," she said.
While her critics take special offense at her suggestion that the
Koran itself may be flawed, she does not exclude herself from the
possibility as well. Only God knows the truth,
she said.

"If I am wrong," she smiled, "I will pay a price on the day of
judgment."

[Ed]

This girl is like a breath of fresh air in a room full of stale, outdated,
brainwashed minds.
Good thing she's in Canada, if she were in an Arab country she would have
been marked for death in no time, I'm sure.

Let's hope that many others of Islamic faith will heed her wisdom.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
NY Times
SATURDAY PROFILE
An Unlikely Promoter of an Islamic Reformation
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS
Published: October 4, 2003
ORONTO - As a Canadian Muslim, Irshad Manji never eats pork, never
drinks alcohol and regularly reads the Koran. Otherwise she is Osama
bin Laden's worst nightmare.
At 35, Ms. Manji, a lesbian intellectual with spiky hair and a sharp
tongue, is an outspoken television journalist who admires Israel and
applauds the American overthrow
of Saddam Hussein. More than that, she has issued a searing critique
of her religion in a new book, "The Trouble with Islam" (Random House
Canada), calling for radical change.
While every religion has its fundamentalists, she notes, "only in
Islam is literalism in the mainstream," a recipe for generating
hatreds that can spawn suicide bombers.
There are other Islamic liberals who say the Sept. 11 attackers did
more than hijack four planes: they hijacked an entire religion. Ms.
Manji goes much further, saying that
Islam has deep-rooted problems with Jews, women, slavery and
authoritarianism that go back centuries. Her goal is a thoroughly
liberal reform, started by Muslims living in the West.
"If ever there was a moment for an Islamic reformation, it's now," she
argues in her book. "If we're sincere about fighting the asphyxiating
despotism" that Al Qaeda seeks to
spread, she adds, "we can't be afraid to ask: What if the Koran isn't
perfect? What if it's not a completely God-authored book? What if it's
riddled with human biases?"
As a longtime broadcaster and public affairs talk-show host on
Canadian television, Ms. Manji, prominent, articulate and telegenic,
with a rapid-fire delivery, has a ready platform for her ideas.
These ideas have already set off a searching debate. In the first
weeks after publication of her book, she has made front-page news
across Canada and received immediate
attention in Germany, where the book was also released. In the next
few months the book will reach the United States (St. Martin's Press),
Australia, other parts of Europe and
most probably Israel. The book has also provoked death threats.
She takes no chances. Conversing in her Toronto living room,
fidgeting, with a cup of spicy Indian tea in hand, Ms. Manji gushes
with arguments as a hefty bodyguard stands on the
porch. She has put bulletproof glass in some windows. She insists that
her house not be described in detail to avoid giving a hint of where
she lives.
Her central call is for Muslims to join her in critical thinking. If
Mohamed Atta, who was well educated in Germany, had grown up with
questions rather than just glib answers,
" she said, "maybe then he would have stepped back before immolating
himself and committing mass murder" on Sept. 11, 2001, in the attacks
that he helped organize.
As much as anything, she emphasizes, her thirst is for inquiry,
something she says she admires in Israeli society. The goal is to
"create conversations where they have never occurred
before."
It is working. The immediate reply is as fiery as her own high-octane
critique.
"The book title should be `The Trouble with Irshad Manji,' " said
Mohamed Elmasry, national president of the Canadian Islamic Congress,
dismissing her as a "media darling."
"She calls herself a good Muslim even though she is a lesbian and a
feminist," he added. "She will have a shadow over her interpretation."
Written in essay form as a conversational letter to "my fellow
Muslims," Ms. Manji tells of her "personal clash of civilizations,"
beginning with her family's flight to Canada in 1972
from her native Uganda when Idi Amin expelled the local East Indian
community. She comes from an upper-middle-class family (her father and
brothers ran a Mercedes-Benz
dealership in Uganda), but also a troubled home in which her father
once chased her with a knife.
A questioning child, she had repeated run-ins with the teacher of her
Islamic school in a Vancouver suburb. She finally became so disgusted
with his anti-Semitic rants, she wrote,
that she bolted from the class.
From that adolescent confrontation came more profound questions that
have grown in urgency to the point where she admits being on the verge
of giving up on Islam. But she
hopes her doubts can help fuel a reform that in turn will bolster her
faith and propel Islamic reform.
The Islam she desires, she says, is akin to the one in which dissent
flourished in the 10th through 13th centuries, when "poets caricatured
religion with court approval," and Jews
and Muslims lived peacefully together in prosperity and
cross-fertilized their cultures.
Indeed Ms. Manji is a product of the expanding diversity encouraged by
Canada's immigration policy. About 600,000 Muslims now live in Canada,
nearly half 24 years old or younger,
according to the 2001 census. "There is a hunger among younger
Muslims for debate and discussion," she said.
Living in a free society like Canada's has allowed Ms. Manji to raise
questions and form her own understanding of Islam, she says. But even
as she applauds Canadian tolerance,
she is critical of liberals who are not tough enough on
fundamentalism. She voices concern that some Islamic schools in Canada
are spreading a brand of intolerant Islam, taught
in parts of the Middle East and Asia, that could breed terrorism here
as well. But if Islam presents a special challenge to the West, Ms.
Manji argues, Western liberalism can also
challenge and change Islam. She says that young Muslims living in the
West are bound to push for more diverse expressions of the religion.
"It is imperative that somehow, some way,
people begin to understand that the West and Islam are not mutually
exclusive," she said.
A freer trade in ideas, she suggests, can be encouraged by investment
in small loans to women living in Muslim countries to help them break
from male domination.
"When I see a woman in Nigeria getting sentenced to 180 lashes for
premarital sex, despite the fact that she's produced several witnesses
confirming that she was raped, it is my
responsibility as a Muslim to speak out," she said.
While her critics take special offense at her suggestion that the
Koran itself may be flawed, she does not exclude herself from the
possibility as well. Only God knows the truth,
she said.
"If I am wrong," she smiled, "I will pay a price on the day of
judgment."

[Kshatriya]

It's no surprise that women are the one's leading the battle for
reformation within Islam.

They have a vested interest here , because under strict Islamic laws
they are the ones who get the raw end of every deal. Guess they
decided its time to rebel against the slavery of sharia law.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
NY Times
SATURDAY PROFILE
An Unlikely Promoter of an Islamic Reformation
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS
Published: October 4, 2003
ORONTO ? As a Canadian Muslim, Irshad Manji never eats pork, never
drinks alcohol and regularly reads the Koran. Otherwise she is Osama
bin Laden's worst nightmare.
At 35, Ms. Manji, a lesbian intellectual with spiky hair and a sharp
tongue, is an outspoken television journalist who admires Israel and
applauds the American overthrow
of Saddam Hussein. More than that, she has issued a searing critique
of her religion in a new book, "The Trouble with Islam" (Random House
Canada), calling for radical change.
While every religion has its fundamentalists, she notes, "only in
Islam is literalism in the mainstream," a recipe for generating
hatreds that can spawn suicide bombers.
There are other Islamic liberals who say the Sept. 11 attackers did
more than hijack four planes: they hijacked an entire religion. Ms.
Manji goes much further, saying that
Islam has deep-rooted problems with Jews, women, slavery and
authoritarianism that go back centuries. Her goal is a thoroughly
liberal reform, started by Muslims living in the West.
"If ever there was a moment for an Islamic reformation, it's now," she
argues in her book. "If we're sincere about fighting the asphyxiating
despotism" that Al Qaeda seeks to
spread, she adds, "we can't be afraid to ask: What if the Koran isn't
perfect? What if it's not a completely God-authored book? What if it's
riddled with human biases?"
As a longtime broadcaster and public affairs talk-show host on
Canadian television, Ms. Manji, prominent, articulate and telegenic,
with a rapid-fire delivery, has a ready platform for her ideas.
These ideas have already set off a searching debate. In the first
weeks after publication of her book, she has made front-page news
across Canada and received immediate
attention in Germany, where the book was also released. In the next
few months the book will reach the United States (St. Martin's Press),
Australia, other parts of Europe and
most probably Israel. The book has also provoked death threats.
She takes no chances. Conversing in her Toronto living room,
fidgeting, with a cup of spicy Indian tea in hand, Ms. Manji gushes
with arguments as a hefty bodyguard stands on the
porch. She has put bulletproof glass in some windows. She insists that
her house not be described in detail to avoid giving a hint of where
she lives.
Her central call is for Muslims to join her in critical thinking. If
Mohamed Atta, who was well educated in Germany, had grown up with
questions rather than just glib answers,
" she said, "maybe then he would have stepped back before immolating
himself and committing mass murder" on Sept. 11, 2001, in the attacks
that he helped organize.
As much as anything, she emphasizes, her thirst is for inquiry,
something she says she admires in Israeli society. The goal is to
"create conversations where they have never occurred
before."
It is working. The immediate reply is as fiery as her own high-octane
critique.
"The book title should be `The Trouble with Irshad Manji,' " said
Mohamed Elmasry, national president of the Canadian Islamic Congress,
dismissing her as a "media darling."
"She calls herself a good Muslim even though she is a lesbian and a
feminist," he added. "She will have a shadow over her interpretation."
Written in essay form as a conversational letter to "my fellow
Muslims," Ms. Manji tells of her "personal clash of civilizations,"
beginning with her family's flight to Canada in 1972
from her native Uganda when Idi Amin expelled the local East Indian
community. She comes from an upper-middle-class family (her father and
brothers ran a Mercedes-Benz
dealership in Uganda), but also a troubled home in which her father
once chased her with a knife.
A questioning child, she had repeated run-ins with the teacher of her
Islamic school in a Vancouver suburb. She finally became so disgusted
with his anti-Semitic rants, she wrote,
that she bolted from the class.
From that adolescent confrontation came more profound questions that
have grown in urgency to the point where she admits being on the verge
of giving up on Islam. But she
hopes her doubts can help fuel a reform that in turn will bolster her
faith and propel Islamic reform.
The Islam she desires, she says, is akin to the one in which dissent
flourished in the 10th through 13th centuries, when "poets caricatured
religion with court approval," and Jews
and Muslims lived peacefully together in prosperity and
cross-fertilized their cultures.
Indeed Ms. Manji is a product of the expanding diversity encouraged by
Canada's immigration policy. About 600,000 Muslims now live in Canada,
nearly half 24 years old or younger,
according to the 2001 census. "There is a hunger among younger
Muslims for debate and discussion," she said.
Living in a free society like Canada's has allowed Ms. Manji to raise
questions and form her own understanding of Islam, she says. But even
as she applauds Canadian tolerance,
she is critical of liberals who are not tough enough on
fundamentalism. She voices concern that some Islamic schools in Canada
are spreading a brand of intolerant Islam, taught
in parts of the Middle East and Asia, that could breed terrorism here
as well. But if Islam presents a special challenge to the West, Ms.
Manji argues, Western liberalism can also
challenge and change Islam. She says that young Muslims living in the
West are bound to push for more diverse expressions of the religion.
"It is imperative that somehow, some way,
people begin to understand that the West and Islam are not mutually
exclusive," she said.
A freer trade in ideas, she suggests, can be encouraged by investment
in small loans to women living in Muslim countries to help them break
from male domination.
"When I see a woman in Nigeria getting sentenced to 180 lashes for
premarital sex, despite the fact that she's produced several witnesses
confirming that she was raped, it is my
responsibility as a Muslim to speak out," she said.
While her critics take special offense at her suggestion that the
Koran itself may be flawed, she does not exclude herself from the
possibility as well. Only God knows the truth,
she said.
"If I am wrong," she smiled, "I will pay a price on the day of
judgment."

[pund kamath]

Post by Kshatriya
It's no surprise that women are the one's leading the battle for
reformation within Islam....

Text snipped.....

Irshad Manji is a brave woman for taking on the oppression of the
majority of conservatives , clergy and Mullahs.

Everybody should read her latest book and I have read it in parts.
She does not have long academic credentials, pedigree of wealth and
power but has not forgotten the teatment under other murderous
dictators like Idi Amin( supposedly a dvout Muslim now living in Saudi
Arabia).

She is one of the many in Muslim community in Canada who in the words
of Salman Rushdie- wants to open the doors of Islamic world to the
outside world of reformation , modernity,humanism and reason, wheras
the majority of the community likes to keep it shut...'.

There are many many Muslims ( whose birth was determined by accident
because they were born in Muslim faith) like her who are afraid to
speakup. I hope they will have the courage as the time goes by.

[glugg]

Post by pund kamath

Post by Kshatriya
It's no surprise that women are the one's leading the battle for
reformation within Islam....

Text snipped.....
Irshad Manji is a brave woman for taking on the oppression of the
majority of conservatives , clergy and Mullahs.
Everybody should read her latest book and I have read it in parts.
She does not have long academic credentials, pedigree of wealth and
power but has not forgotten the teatment under other murderous
dictators like Idi Amin( supposedly a dvout Muslim now living in Saudi
Arabia).

Like tens of thousands of other guilty muslims, Amin has died recently.

[Nusrat Rizvi]

Post by pund kamath

Post by Kshatriya
It's no surprise that women are the one's leading the battle for
reformation within Islam....

Text snipped.....
Irshad Manji is a brave woman for taking on the oppression of the
majority of conservatives , clergy and Mullahs.
Everybody should read her latest book and I have read it in parts.
She does not have long academic credentials, pedigree of wealth and
power but has not forgotten the teatment under other murderous
dictators like Idi Amin( supposedly a dvout Muslim now living in Saudi
Arabia).
She is one of the many in Muslim community in Canada who in the words
of Salman Rushdie- wants to open the doors of Islamic world to the
outside world of reformation , modernity,humanism and reason, wheras
the majority of the community likes to keep it shut...'.
There are many many Muslims ( whose birth was determined by accident
because they were born in Muslim faith) like her who are afraid to
speakup. I hope they will have the courage as the time goes by.

Actually, Islam only thrives in darkness, democracy and education are
both death sentences for Islam since it can never answer simple
questions relating to Mohammeds character or his other idiotic
gibberish of holy Koran.

[Dan]

Muslims women vs Christian/Jews sluts.

The Muslim woman's in veil focus is her home, the "nest" where her
children are born and reared. She is the "home" maker, the taproot
that sustains the spiritual life of the family, nurturing and training
her children,providing refuge and support to her husband.


In contrast, the bikinied Western Christians/Jew sluts practically
naked in front of millions, she belongs to herself. In
practice,paradoxically,she is public property. She belongs to no one
and everyone. She shops her body to the highest bidder. She is
auctioning herself all of the time.In western Christian/Jew sluts culture,
the cultural measure of a woman's value is her sex appeal

[Habshi]

Nonsense . Muslim women at home get bored just like any intelligent
human being would and have loads of children , more than six . This
doubles population every 15 years and leads to poverty and wars.
If Muslims saw sense and treated them as human beings and let them
work , they would have two or three and the Islamic world would stop
begging from the west .

On 6 Oct 2003 14:31:19 -0700, ***@yahoo.com (Dan) wrote:

Muslims women vs Christian/Jews sluts.

The Muslim woman's in veil focus is her home, the "nest" where her
children are born and reared. She is the "home" maker, the taproot
that sustains the spiritual life of the family, nurturing and training
her children,providing refuge and support to her husband.


In contrast, the bikinied Western Christians/Jew sluts practically
naked in front of millions, she belongs to herself. In
practice,paradoxically,she is public property. She belongs to no one
and everyone. She shops her body to the highest bidder. She is
auctioning herself all of the time.In western Christian/Jew sluts
culture,
the cultural measure of a woman's value is her sex appeal

[Abu-Alwafa]

Non Muslim Women Raped Every 2 Minutes

One in three women are raped in their lifetime and, according to the U.S.
Department of Justice, an American is raped or sexually assaulted once every
two minutes.
Perhaps one of the most startling aspects of sex crimes is how many go
unreported. Only about 1/3 of rapes and/or sexual assaults are ever reported
to the police. The most common reasons given by women for not reporting
these crimes are the belief that it is a private or personal matter and that
they fear reprisal from the assailant. This may be because a woman's risk of
being raped by someone she knows is four times greater than being raped by a
stranger; in fact, 66% of rape and/or sexual assault victims knew their
assailants.
Here we goooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

http://www.nbc.com/nbc/footer/tmyk/pgv_psa_rape.shtml

Post by Habshi
Nonsense . Muslim women at home get bored just like any intelligent
human being would and have loads of children , more than six . This
doubles population every 15 years and leads to poverty and wars.
If Muslims saw sense and treated them as human beings and let them
work , they would have two or three and the Islamic world would stop
begging from the west .
Muslims women vs Christian/Jews sluts.
The Muslim woman's in veil focus is her home, the "nest" where her
children are born and reared. She is the "home" maker, the taproot
that sustains the spiritual life of the family, nurturing and training
her children,providing refuge and support to her husband.
In contrast, the bikinied Western Christians/Jew sluts practically
naked in front of millions, she belongs to herself. In
practice,paradoxically,she is public property. She belongs to no one
and everyone. She shops her body to the highest bidder. She is
auctioning herself all of the time.In western Christian/Jew sluts culture,
the cultural measure of a woman's value is her sex appeal

[Count 1]

Post by Abu-Alwafa
One in three women are raped in their lifetime and, according to the U.S.
Department of Justice, an American is raped or sexually assaulted once every
two minutes.
Perhaps one of the most startling aspects of sex crimes is how many go
unreported. Only about 1/3 of rapes and/or sexual assaults are ever reported
to the police. The most common reasons given by women for not reporting
these crimes are the belief that it is a private or personal matter and that
they fear reprisal from the assailant. This may be because a woman's risk of
being raped by someone she knows is four times greater than being raped by a
stranger; in fact, 66% of rape and/or sexual assault victims knew their
assailants.
Here we goooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

It speaks!

How many witnesses does a woman need under your interpretation of shariah to
level a charge of rape in the first place?

What was the reason the sharia court in Nigeria didn't prosecute Amina
Lawal's lover who got her pregnant?

How many female police officers are there, on average, in a muslim country?
How many rapes go unreported, on average, in a muslim country?

--
Count 1
The child is grown, the dream is gone.
I have become comfortably numb

[Rodrigo Diaz]

a century from now, children will ask; "daddy what's a moose limb?"

Post by Habshi
Nonsense . Muslim women at home get bored just like any intelligent
human being would and have loads of children , more than six . This
doubles population every 15 years and leads to poverty and wars.
If Muslims saw sense and treated them as human beings and let them
work , they would have two or three and the Islamic world would stop
begging from the west .
Muslims women vs Christian/Jews sluts.
The Muslim woman's in veil focus is her home, the "nest" where her
children are born and reared. She is the "home" maker, the taproot
that sustains the spiritual life of the family, nurturing and training
her children,providing refuge and support to her husband.
In contrast, the bikinied Western Christians/Jew sluts practically
naked in front of millions, she belongs to herself. In
practice,paradoxically,she is public property. She belongs to no one
and everyone. She shops her body to the highest bidder. She is
auctioning herself all of the time.In western Christian/Jew sluts culture,
the cultural measure of a woman's value is her sex appeal

[Ed]

Ahhhhh.... another voice straight from the 7th century.

Post by Dan
Muslims women vs Christian/Jews sluts.
The Muslim woman's in veil focus is her home, the "nest" where her
children are born and reared. She is the "home" maker, the taproot
that sustains the spiritual life of the family, nurturing and training
her children,providing refuge and support to her husband.
In contrast, the bikinied Western Christians/Jew sluts practically
naked in front of millions, she belongs to herself. In
practice,paradoxically,she is public property. She belongs to no one
and everyone. She shops her body to the highest bidder. She is
auctioning herself all of the time.In western Christian/Jew sluts culture,
the cultural measure of a woman's value is her sex appeal

[Mirza Ghalib]

The problem is not with either Muslim or Christian women,
but you. You have seen only the sluts in the Christian/Jew
society and from that you are drawing wide inferences.

By the way, the life of a Muslim woman is not so idyllic as
you imagine.

Post by Dan
Muslims women vs Christian/Jews sluts.

[pund kamath]

Post by Mirza Ghalib
The problem is not with either Muslim or Christian women,
but you. You have seen only the sluts in the Christian/Jew
society and from that you are drawing wide inferences.
By the way, the life of a Muslim woman is not so idyllic as
you imagine.

Post by Dan
Muslims women vs Christian/Jews sluts.

Your are right in your deduction.

[Habshi]

Earlier, hundreds of Islamic seminary students went on a rampage after
a funeral service outside Parliament, setting fire to a Shiite Muslim
shrine and a movie theater, smashing shop windows and chanting
anti-Shiite slogans. A 24-year-old theater employee died after being
overcome by smoke, and eight other people were injured.

Rioters also set ablaze the Sakhi Mahmoood shrine - a Shiite shrine
that also is popular with many Sunnis. Caretaker Gauhar Ali said
everything inside the tomb was burned down.

Thousands flooded a main traffic intersection in the capital for the
funeral service.

``Shiites are infidels!'' many in the crowd chanted, as hundreds of
heavily armed police looked on. Police used batons to disperse the
crowd, and the streets were quiet by Tuesday afternoon.

Elsewhere in Pakistan, security was extremely tight. In the northern
city of Gilgit, demonstrators blocked roads and chanted anti-Shiite
slogans. Five people were injured in clashes with police in the area.

No arrests have been made in Tariq's killing. He was gunned down along
with three bodyguards and a driver on the southwestern outskirts of
Islamabad Monday afternoon.

Maulana Ali Sher Haideri, chairman of Tariq's Millat-e-Islamia
political party, accused Iran and Pakistani Interior Minister Faisal
Saleh Hayyat, of involvement in the killing. Hayyat is a Shiite, and
Iran is a Shiite majority country.

``We are 100 percent sure that Iran and Faisal Saleh Hayyat has a hand
in this tragedy,'' Haideri said.

Tariq was detained by Pakistan at the start of the U.S.-led military
operation in Afghanistan to prevent him from leading pro-Taliban
rallies. His group was later banned as Musharraf sought to purge the
country of extremism and terrorism.

Tariq won a seat in Parliament from behind bars in October 2002, and
he was released shortly afterward when a court in the eastern city of
Lahore ruled the government had not produced enough evidence to hold
him.

Although Tariq denied supporting armed struggle, Sipah-e-Sahaba - or
the Guardians of the Friends of the Prophet - was blamed by police for
more than 400 killings in sectarian violence in recent years. The
group also has strong ties to Afghanistan's former Taliban leaders.

Most of Pakistan's Sunnis and Shiites live together peacefully, but
small extremist groups on both sides launch frequent attacks. Last
week, six Shiites were killed in an attack on a bus in the southern
port city of Karachi. More than 50 Shiite worshippers were killed in
an attack on a mosque in the southwestern city of Quetta in July.

Since his release from prison, Tariq had become a supporter of the
government of Prime Minister Zafarullah Khan Jamali, a Musharraf ally.

[Mirza Ghalib]

Mr. Rizvi, does she read the Koran regularly? Then she is
not completely liberated, because the Book is the source
of all troubles in Islam today and in the past.

Even then, half a loaf is better than none at all.

There is a new book "Onward Muslim Soldiers" which is making
a few waves. This is an analysis of the problems in Islam
in the context of the Koran, verse by verse. I have not
read it yet, but a few reviews (all laudatory)can be read
at www.amazon.com

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
NY Times
SATURDAY PROFILE
An Unlikely Promoter of an Islamic Reformation
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS

[Afdhere Jama]

Mr. Ghalib,

The Qur'an is the holy text of 1.5 billion Muslims, most of whom are
good people. Also, the Qur'an is read both in Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
The countries are day and night in terms of living today's world. I
don't think the problem is not the Qur'an but the interpretation
thereof.


Afdhere

Post by Mirza Ghalib
Mr. Rizvi, does she read the Koran regularly? Then she is
not completely liberated, because the Book is the source
of all troubles in Islam today and in the past.
Even then, half a loaf is better than none at all.
There is a new book "Onward Muslim Soldiers" which is making
a few waves. This is an analysis of the problems in Islam
in the context of the Koran, verse by verse. I have not
read it yet, but a few reviews (all laudatory)can be read
at www.amazon.com

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
NY Times
SATURDAY PROFILE
An Unlikely Promoter of an Islamic Reformation
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS

[Nusrat Rizvi]

Post by Afdhere Jama
Mr. Ghalib,
The Qur'an is the holy text of 1.5 billion Muslims, most of whom are
good people. Also, the Qur'an is read both in Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
The countries are day and night in terms of living today's world. I
don't think the problem is not the Qur'an but the interpretation
thereof.
Afdhere

Your defense of a religion started by a sex crazed pervert is fooling
no one. If 1.5 billion followers is the only claim to fame you can
come up with then permit me to point out these diseased masses
not only do not attribute to the advancements of mankind but evidence
clearly shown they are a big drain on our worlds limited resources.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Mirza Ghalib
Mr. Rizvi, does she read the Koran regularly? Then she is
not completely liberated, because the Book is the source
of all troubles in Islam today and in the past.
Even then, half a loaf is better than none at all.
There is a new book "Onward Muslim Soldiers" which is making
a few waves. This is an analysis of the problems in Islam
in the context of the Koran, verse by verse. I have not
read it yet, but a few reviews (all laudatory)can be read
at www.amazon.com

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
NY Times
SATURDAY PROFILE
An Unlikely Promoter of an Islamic Reformation
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS

[pund kamath]

Post by Nusrat Rizvi

Post by Afdhere Jama
Mr. Ghalib,
The Qur'an is the holy text of 1.5 billion Muslims, most of whom are
good people. Also, the Qur'an is read both in Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
The countries are day and night in terms of living today's world. I
don't think the problem is not the Qur'an but the interpretation
thereof.
Afdhere

..text gone...
If 1.5 billion followers is the only claim to fame you can

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
come up with then permit me to point out these diseased masses
not only do not attribute to the advancements of mankind but evidence
clearly shown they are a big drain on our worlds limited resources.....

Boasting about the insane idea-so called '..Islam is a growing
religion...' drives a chill in my spine. It is being is touted as
badge of honour instead of ominous sign of impending doom. Islam is
not growing because it has any appeal to thinking humans. It is the
uncontrolled growth of existing Muslim population is FRIGHTENING. Read
fertility rates in all fundamentallist populations, but in all Islamic
countries and societies, it is absolutely beyond belief.

(Spiralling population be it in China, India or any country among
Christians, Hindus or say any one, is dangerous. It only brings
poverty and ignorance and lawlessness and conflict).

Someday, this sickening rise in Islamic population, pollution caused
by it, consumption of resources will bring catstrophe to this planet.
May be there is a lot of truth that Islam will take over the planet by
simply breeding and breeding and nothing else.

Please, Please, Ya, 'Allah" help mankind aginst this peril of
overpopulation.

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Your defense of a religion started by a sex crazed pervert is fooling
no one. If 1.5 billion followers is the only claim to fame you can
come up with then permit me to point out these diseased masses
not only do not attribute to the advancements of mankind but evidence
clearly shown they are a big drain on our worlds limited resources.

Nusrat, I'm not interested in insulting anyone. That is not who I'm.

I'm not interested in debating people who are not able to grasp the
different cultures of people. But if Muhammad -- who was married to
twelve women throughout his lifetime (not all at the same time) -- was
"sex crazed pervert" -- I wonder what you would have thought of
Solomon or David? Heck, even Hindu gods? I bet you would think
Draupadi -- who had five husbands at the same time and took turns
between them -- was a "a sex crazed whore." Give me a break.

I cerainly don't care what kind of life Muhammad led in the seventh
century. Or what kind of life the Arab dude of today's does in 21st
century. What is their culture is their culture. The spiritual
guidance of Islam is one of the most beautiful I have ever come
across.

As for Muslims, Muslims have been a victim of colony until just fifty
years ago. And even today, they continue to suffer Western inteferance
in their affairs. Let me just give you a few examples;

- The West has been supporting the nut in Iraq since his wanting to
come to power. They supported him and other terrorists get rid off a
democratically elected official. Supporte him throughout his ruthless
rulling.

- The West have completely destroyed the Iranian people by forcing
them to go to a fundmentalist because they completely took out a
democratically elected PM and replace him with a
Western-friendly-but-otherwise-an-ass-hole king. (Read "All the Shah's
Men" by Stephen Kinzer of the NY Times)

- THe West continues to support and protect a nutty family in Saudi
Arabia who keep people in the seventh century by FORCE.


So since you are in a blame the victim mood, why don't we discuss the
billions in Africa and Southern America who are NOT Muslims? Or
perhaps your Islamophobism is keeping you these "disease" filled
masses called Muslims? :o

Let the West leave alone those whom they consider "inferior" and I
will show you how prosperous they become. Muslims used to be in the
lead of science. Non-Muslims came from all corners of the world to be
educated by Muslims (see "Islam, an Empire of Faith.")

Since your name sounds South Asian, I bet you are one of the millions
who think they are English lol. One thing Muslims never did; they
never lost who they are. And forgive me but in my book that is much
worthier than following a backward Europe.


God bless.



Afdhere

[hehe]

and all these preaching you do sitting in the 'backward' United States of
America.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Nusrat, I'm not interested in insulting anyone. That is not who I'm.
I'm not interested in debating people who are not able to grasp the
different cultures of people. But if Muhammad -- who was married to
twelve women throughout his lifetime (not all at the same time) -- was
"sex crazed pervert" -- I wonder what you would have thought of
Solomon or David? Heck, even Hindu gods? I bet you would think
Draupadi -- who had five husbands at the same time and took turns
between them -- was a "a sex crazed whore." Give me a break.
I cerainly don't care what kind of life Muhammad led in the seventh
century. Or what kind of life the Arab dude of today's does in 21st
century. What is their culture is their culture. The spiritual
guidance of Islam is one of the most beautiful I have ever come
across.
As for Muslims, Muslims have been a victim of colony until just fifty
years ago. And even today, they continue to suffer Western inteferance
in their affairs. Let me just give you a few examples;
- The West has been supporting the nut in Iraq since his wanting to
come to power. They supported him and other terrorists get rid off a
democratically elected official. Supporte him throughout his ruthless
rulling.
- The West have completely destroyed the Iranian people by forcing
them to go to a fundmentalist because they completely took out a
democratically elected PM and replace him with a
Western-friendly-but-otherwise-an-ass-hole king. (Read "All the Shah's
Men" by Stephen Kinzer of the NY Times)
- THe West continues to support and protect a nutty family in Saudi
Arabia who keep people in the seventh century by FORCE.
So since you are in a blame the victim mood, why don't we discuss the
billions in Africa and Southern America who are NOT Muslims? Or
perhaps your Islamophobism is keeping you these "disease" filled
masses called Muslims? :o
Let the West leave alone those whom they consider "inferior" and I
will show you how prosperous they become. Muslims used to be in the
lead of science. Non-Muslims came from all corners of the world to be
educated by Muslims (see "Islam, an Empire of Faith.")
Since your name sounds South Asian, I bet you are one of the millions
who think they are English lol. One thing Muslims never did; they
never lost who they are. And forgive me but in my book that is much
worthier than following a backward Europe.
God bless.
Afdhere

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by hehe
and all these preaching you do sitting in the 'backward' United States of
America.

Well, since we Americans all came here to change the world--- I'm
changing this country, one Nuzrat-like person at a time ;-) Preaching?
Me? Nah...


Afdhere

[Habshi]

Post by Afdhere Jama
I cerainly don't care what kind of life Muhammad led in the seventh

century. Or what kind of life the Arab dude of today's does in 21st
century. What is their culture is their culture. The spiritual
guidance of <

Amazing that you dont care about a 54 year old man marrying a
six year old girl and claiming he was a Prophet !! Your way is the way
sadists take over the world .

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by Habshi
Amazing that you dont care about a 54 year old man marrying a
six year old girl and claiming he was a Prophet !! Your way is the way
sadists take over the world .

The 54 year old married the six year old with her father's consent.
Since a generation earlier a similar father was burrying his daughter,
I think a marriage is a far cry from that.

The fact that Muhammad married a nine year old daughter with her
father's consent bothers me just as Solomon taking a thousand woman
for fun with their consent bothers me. I do not get either of them.
Nor do I get gods having multiple partners any more than I do humans
marrying multiple partners. It is all cultural BS... and what feels
good to each culture.

Habshi, I'm from a country where each state has a different thought on
how people should have sex-- with whom they should have sex, etc. In
on state, a 13-year-old can marry a 60-year-old with her/his father's
consent. It bothers me deeply... but I understand it is that state's
own understanding and moral growth.




Afdhere

[Habshi]

On 10 Oct 2003 23:32:41 -0700, ***@yahoo.com (Afdhere Jama)
wrote:
.

The 54 year old married the six year old with her father's consent.<

Lies . her father tried desperately to protect her saying '
but you are her uncle !' but of course the Prophet insisted he had
Allah's permission
Even her father had consented , do you accept the age six as
appropriate for marriage ? The decent Meccans refused and that is why
he had to flee , not the one god nonsense theory which many had
preached before him , including the Jews who were never prosecuted in
Mecca or Saudi until the Prophet beheaded 700 surrendered men .

[Habshi]

proof that the Quran is not from Allah who doesnt exist .
Quran says 'sun goes to rest at night in a muddy cave'. Totally untrue

[Habshi]

Does a father have the right to force his six year or nine
year old daughter to have relations with an old man ? Would such a
father and the old man not be put in jail ?

[€ R.L. Measures]

Post by Habshi
Does a father have the right to force his six year or nine
year old daughter to have relations with an old man ? Would such a
father and the old man not be put in jail ?

€ throughout history numerous prophets of God/Allah have coupled with
girls under the age of 14. For example, David Koresh/Vernon Howell used
to hump 11-year olds.

[Habshi]

But society condemned it and this guy faced jail . Muslims
however are too terrified to speak out against anything the Prophet
did . Cowardly.

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:23:14 GMT, ***@vc.net (€ R.L. Measures) wrote:

€ throughout history numerous prophets of God/Allah have coupled
with
girls under the age of 14. For example, David Koresh/Vernon Howell
used
to hump 11-year olds.

[€ R.L. Measures]

Post by Habshi
But society condemned it and this guy faced jail . Muslims
however are too terrified to speak out against anything the Prophet
did . Cowardly.

€ but pragmatic.

Post by Habshi
€ throughout history numerous prophets of God/Allah have coupled with
girls under the age of 14. For example, David Koresh/Vernon Howell used
to hump 11-year olds.

[€ R.L. Measures]

Post by Habshi
proof that the Quran is not from Allah who doesnt exist .
Quran says 'sun goes to rest at night in a muddy cave'. Totally untrue

€ Sure, but the largest Christian church on earth used to teach that the
sun revolved around earth. However, in Oct. of 1992 they admitted that
this wasn't the case.

[€ R.L. Measures]

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Afdhere Jama
I cerainly don't care what kind of life Muhammad led in the seventh

century. Or what kind of life the Arab dude of today's does in 21st
century. What is their culture is their culture. The spiritual
guidance of <
Amazing that you dont care about a 54 year old man marrying a
six year old girl and claiming he was a Prophet !! .

€ However, True Believer Muhammadans proudly say that Muhammad did not
copulate the six-year old girl (Ayesha) until she was eight.

[Nusrat Rizvi]

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Your defense of a religion started by a sex crazed pervert is fooling
no one. If 1.5 billion followers is the only claim to fame you can
come up with then permit me to point out these diseased masses
not only do not attribute to the advancements of mankind but evidence
clearly shown they are a big drain on our worlds limited resources.

Nusrat, I'm not interested in insulting anyone. That is not who I'm.
I'm not interested in debating people who are not able to grasp the
different cultures of people. But if Muhammad -- who was married to
twelve women throughout his lifetime (not all at the same time) -- was
"sex crazed pervert" -- I wonder what you would have thought of
Solomon or David? Heck, even Hindu gods? I bet you would think
Draupadi -- who had five husbands at the same time and took turns
between them -- was a "a sex crazed whore." Give me a break.

Which prophet married a child of six?

Post by Afdhere Jama
I cerainly don't care what kind of life Muhammad led in the seventh
century. Or what kind of life the Arab dude of today's does in 21st
century. What is their culture is their culture. The spiritual
guidance of Islam is one of the most beautiful I have ever come
across.

According to Muslims, Mohammed was a man for all times so your
arguments to justify his excesses on 7th century Arabia does not hold
water.

Post by Afdhere Jama
As for Muslims, Muslims have been a victim of colony until just fifty
years ago. And even today, they continue to suffer Western inteferance
in their affairs. Let me just give you a few examples;

Care to say a few words for those brutalized oppressed and enslaved by
the Muslims or don't you believe Muslims are capable of doing it.

Post by Afdhere Jama
- The West has been supporting the nut in Iraq since his wanting to
come to power. They supported him and other terrorists get rid off a
democratically elected official. Supporte him throughout his ruthless
rulling.
- The West have completely destroyed the Iranian people by forcing
them to go to a fundmentalist because they completely took out a
democratically elected PM and replace him with a
Western-friendly-but-otherwise-an-ass-hole king. (Read "All the Shah's
Men" by Stephen Kinzer of the NY Times)

Some Western leaders were not all that great in point of fact Richard
Nixon was denounced by his own psychiatrist as a psychopath.
Be that as it may, this still does not answer one simple fact which
is, that all Muslims countries are and always were ruled by
potentates. This I am sure you will blame on the Jews, Christian,
Hindus or fill in your own religion.

Post by Afdhere Jama
- THe West continues to support and protect a nutty family in Saudi
Arabia who keep people in the seventh century by FORCE.

Not all support Saudi Arabia since most cutthroats of 9/11 came
from this sick nation.

Post by Afdhere Jama
So since you are in a blame the victim mood, why don't we discuss the
billions in Africa and Southern America who are NOT Muslims? Or
perhaps your Islamophobism is keeping you these "disease" filled
masses called Muslims? :o

I know of no harm that has come to us from non Muslims of other lands.
It is only the Islamists who have take a vow to fight us and with
Bush's blessing they may even prevail.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Let the West leave alone those whom they consider "inferior" and I
will show you how prosperous they become. Muslims used to be in the
lead of science. Non-Muslims came from all corners of the world to be
educated by Muslims (see "Islam, an Empire of Faith.")

I don't doubt some Saudis are very prosperous. In point of fact the
closer you are to the Royal family, the richer you are likely to be.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Since your name sounds South Asian, I bet you are one of the millions
who think they are English lol. One thing Muslims never did; they
never lost who they are. And forgive me but in my book that is much
worthier than following a backward Europe.
God bless.

I am actually from Pakistan a fact I never make a secret of and I do
not have to put on a different garb to hide my identity like most of
your other Muslim friend.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Afdhere

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Which prophet married a child of six?

Very interesting. As far as I know, Aisha's marriage to Muhammad was
not consumed until she reached puberty, which for her happened to be
at the age of nine. She was given into marriage to Muhammad (nikah)
when she was six. In some parts of the world, this happens EVEN at the
age of 1 or 2. But the girl doesn't get married until she reaches
puberty (i.e, she gets her period.)

In Islam, it is haram/illegal to marry children. It is perfectly fine
to marry people when they reach puberty. If you find that immoral,
fine, but those are the beliefs and cultures of people.

By the way, how come you don't find any arguments against Muhammad in
his time... on this issue while we fine many others? Could it be
because it was, is and perhaps always will be the norm to the Arabs?
:-)

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
According to Muslims, Mohammed was a man for all times so your
arguments to justify his excesses on 7th century Arabia does not hold
water.

Muhammad the prophet, yes. Not Muhammad the man who lived and died in
the 7th century.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Care to say a few words for those brutalized oppressed and enslaved by
the Muslims or don't you believe Muslims are capable of doing it.

In response to what? Nobody said there aren't any bad Muslims. I'm
talking about the majority of Muslims, who still to THIS day face
Western intervention.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Some Western leaders were not all that great in point of fact Richard
Nixon was denounced by his own psychiatrist as a psychopath.
Be that as it may, this still does not answer one simple fact which
is, that all Muslims countries are and always were ruled by
potentates. This I am sure you will blame on the Jews, Christian,
Hindus or fill in your own religion.

Interesting. So, when the West hand-picks the nuts and puts them in
power, it is the Muslims' fault? Perhaps you should read history? Tell
me one "potentate" who was not put in there by the West? Ashraf?
LOL...

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Not all support Saudi Arabia since most cutthroats of 9/11 came
from this sick nation.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. While the majority
of the 9/11 murderers were Saudis, Afghanistan and Iraq -- both which
had no direct connection with the tragic event the way Saudi Arabia
had -- suffered while Saudi got more protection. Why? I bet you are
smart enough to figure it out on your own. ;-)

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
I know of no harm that has come to us from non Muslims of other lands.
It is only the Islamists who have take a vow to fight us and with
Bush's blessing they may even prevail.

And I bet you think the Islamists are all on their own. I bet you
think Bin Laden just flew out of the sky-- that he had no aid,
training and direct supervision from the West (against 'their'
enemies.) Ah, but you only understand half of the story. Can ya step
out of your own box and smell the coffee next door? :)

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
I am actually from Pakistan a fact I never make a secret of and I do
not have to put on a different garb to hide my identity like most of
your other Muslim friend.

Since you are from Pakistan, I bet you are very happy the way the
British screwed the peoples in your lands by mixing the Desi and
Pushtan, when Pushtanistan should have been a separate land... just as
Kurdistan should have been separate from Iraq. BUT... hey... who am I
to tell you about your people, right?




Afdhere

[€ R.L. Measures]

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Which prophet married a child of six?

Very interesting. As far as I know, Aisha's marriage to Muhammad was
not consumed until she reached puberty, which for her happened to be
at the age of nine. ...

€ Eight-years and 12-lunar months is Not nine solar years. Muhammad
undoubtedly copulated a girl Before her ninth birthday.

[Nusrat Rizvi]

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Which prophet married a child of six?

Very interesting. As far as I know, Aisha's marriage to Muhammad was
not consumed until she reached puberty, which for her happened to be
at the age of nine. She was given into marriage to Muhammad (nikah)
when she was six. In some parts of the world, this happens EVEN at the
age of 1 or 2. But the girl doesn't get married until she reaches
puberty (i.e, she gets her period.)

How do you know when the child molester banged her, were you there?

Post by Afdhere Jama
In Islam, it is haram/illegal to marry children. It is perfectly fine
to marry people when they reach puberty. If you find that immoral,
fine, but those are the beliefs and cultures of people.

Mohammed has number of times flaunted rules he imposed on his
followers.

Post by Afdhere Jama
By the way, how come you don't find any arguments against Muhammad in
his time... on this issue while we fine many others? Could it be
because it was, is and perhaps always will be the norm to the Arabs?

No idea what the hell you are trying to say here.
Remember this, history is always written by victors so it is not hard
to imagine most of derogatory information about the pervert has
already been expunged.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
According to Muslims, Mohammed was a man for all times so your
arguments to justify his excesses on 7th century Arabia does not hold
water.

Muhammad the prophet, yes. Not Muhammad the man who lived and died in
the 7th century.

Dont gimme that stupid bullshit, talk to me as if you are speaking to
human and not arabs.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Care to say a few words for those brutalized oppressed and enslaved by
the Muslims or don't you believe Muslims are capable of doing it.

In response to what? Nobody said there aren't any bad Muslims. I'm
talking about the majority of Muslims, who still to THIS day face
Western intervention.

Muslims went and destroyed old civilizations like Iran, Turkey,
Africa, and even European Spain. You are claiming this perfidious deed
was done by a select few?

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Some Western leaders were not all that great in point of fact Richard
Nixon was denounced by his own psychiatrist as a psychopath.
Be that as it may, this still does not answer one simple fact which
is, that all Muslims countries are and always were ruled by
potentates. This I am sure you will blame on the Jews, Christian,
Hindus or fill in your own religion.

Interesting. So, when the West hand-picks the nuts and puts them in
power, it is the Muslims' fault? Perhaps you should read history? Tell
me one "potentate" who was not put in there by the West? Ashraf?
LOL...

US put Saudis in Arabia? or the Mullahs in Iran.
How about Khaddafy or Suharto, or Bhutto, the list is endless.
It is Islam that brings forth the loonies to power, not Jews, not
Christians not the Hindus but only the child molester and his puke
that gives to Muslims such terrible leaders.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Not all support Saudi Arabia since most cutthroats of 9/11 came
from this sick nation.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. While the majority
of the 9/11 murderers were Saudis, Afghanistan and Iraq -- both which
had no direct connection with the tragic event the way Saudi Arabia
had -- suffered while Saudi got more protection. Why? I bet you are
smart enough to figure it out on your own. ;-)

Bullshit, the scheme was financed by the Saudis and only Saudis. Bush
is doing his utmost to protect these animals cause going after the
real culprit would hurt the family business.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
I know of no harm that has come to us from non Muslims of other lands.
It is only the Islamists who have take a vow to fight us and with
Bush's blessing they may even prevail.

And I bet you think the Islamists are all on their own. I bet you
think Bin Laden just flew out of the sky-- that he had no aid,
training and direct supervision from the West (against 'their'
enemies.) Ah, but you only understand half of the story. Can ya step
out of your own box and smell the coffee next door? :)

Bin Laden is George Bush's creation, he was a minor figure in fighting
the Russians in Afghanistan 20 years ago. Blaming him for everything
evil, only serves to protect the Saudi rulers, his true masters.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
I am actually from Pakistan a fact I never make a secret of and I do
not have to put on a different garb to hide my identity like most of
your other Muslim friend.

Since you are from Pakistan, I bet you are very happy the way the
British screwed the peoples in your lands by mixing the Desi and
Pushtan, when Pushtanistan should have been a separate land... just as
Kurdistan should have been separate from Iraq. BUT... hey... who am I
to tell you about your people, right?

British have been gone for over 50 years yet Pakiland has managed to
remain lot poorer than it was under the British.
Whereas Hindu India has made great strides in many fields Pakiland has
managed to remain a basket case like most other Muslim countries
without the oil.

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
How do you know when the child molester banged her, were you there?

Uhm, how do you know she was six? :) The stories are both from the
Hadith. In fact, outside of the Hadith -- which I never trust -- the
girl was 16 when the dude married her. But since you brought the
Hadithi story, I was giving you the correct Hadithi version.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Mohammed has number of times flaunted rules he imposed on his
followers.

Really, like when? You mean like when he married his son's wife? ROFL.
Give me a break.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
No idea what the hell you are trying to say here.
Remember this, history is always written by victors so it is not hard
to imagine most of derogatory information about the pervert has
already been expunged.

Well, take a little trip to Egypt and go to the Cairo library. Plenty
of derogatory stuff against Muhammad that actually pre-date the
Hadiths (which were 'collected' 200 years after Muhammad's death.) In
fact, there are opposition and derogatory information to Muhammad by
Arabs of Medina and Mecca even before the Qur'an -- as we know it
today -- was put together by Uthman (decades after Muhammad's death.)

Study history, yaar :) It empowers you. You could have much more
standing arguments than just going around personal insulting the
personality of the dude.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Dont gimme that stupid bullshit, talk to me as if you are speaking to
human and not arabs.

Well, ask your people-- most of whom "speak" like the Arabs then :-)
Since I'm neither Arab nor Pakistani, I guess you fail to grasp my
point :(

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Muslims went and destroyed old civilizations like Iran, Turkey,
Africa, and even European Spain. You are claiming this perfidious deed
was done by a select few?

HA! What civilization did Muslims destroy? What about Iran or Turkey
or Africa that has been destroyed?

For one, Africa is predominantly Christian. Iran and Turkey are still
as they were. You mean that Islam required that they no longer oppress
Jews and sell them into slavery? Or that they no longer should worship
gods? What besides that did Islam take away from them?

As for Spain, please do me a favor and visit Spain. The most beautiful
time in the history of ALL Europe was when Islam had a hold on Spain.
By the way, did you know it was the Jews who helped the Muslims win
over Spain? ;-) In return, some of the oldest and most beautiful
Jewish thoughts were written during this period. Try again :)

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
US put Saudis in Arabia? or the Mullahs in Iran.
How about Khaddafy or Suharto, or Bhutto, the list is endless.
It is Islam that brings forth the loonies to power, not Jews, not
Christians not the Hindus but only the child molester and his puke
that gives to Muslims such terrible leaders.

Ok, this is the problem :) USA did not do much until recently (1950s.)
It was the British that put the current Saud family in power. USA did
take out a democratically elected official who was good for Iran per
British request (1953?) Again, read "All the Shah's Men" by Stephen
Kinzer.

As for Qaddafi, he was born out of the hate the West created. The West
put the Royals in power, (King Idris I. Qaddafi), which was why
Qaddafi and all of Libya turned anti-Western... and kicked out the
military base of the US and UK in 1970. Exactly same thing that
happened in Iran. That is the problem. The West creates enemies for
itself.... because it just can't resist not supporting evils who
oppress their people. Again, read history.

As for Suharto, while he was personally corrupted and stole his
country's wealth for personal gain, he did make Indonesia much better
after Sukarno. And I always liked Bhutto because she was a woman that
ruled her people :)

As for loony Christians, Jews and Hindus. I think I will now forget
the worst man in our history-- Hitler... who was Christian. Not to
mention Musollini, the Popes, and all the crappy and oppressive Euro
leaders of the past 2000 years. If all the evils that took place in
the last 2000 years were put on scale, over 70% of it would be by
Christendom. Do you have any idea how evil Europe LITERALLY screwed up
the world? At least 80% of African, South American, Asian, etc,
problems are rooted the fucked up way that Europe systematically
turned these people upside down.

As for Jews, Jews haven't had any Jewish leaders since the old days
and until Israel. Nobody seems to elect the Jews, which is terrible in
itself. And lets not even start with Israeli leaders... who are
virtually repeating what Europe did to them on the Palestinians.
Jewish leaders in the West have also usually been "behind the scenes"
with their crap. And I'm also going to forget blood-thirsty son of
bitch Paul Wolfitz, who is Jewish, and perhaps single handedly the man
responsible for the stupid war in Iraq.

Hindus, like Jews, are not elected elsewhere mostly. Only in India.
And don't get me on what the Sikhs and non-Hindus in India have been
through.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Bullshit, the scheme was financed by the Saudis and only Saudis. Bush
is doing his utmost to protect these animals cause going after the
real culprit would hurt the family business.

Well, we just said the same thing. I guess you couldn't graspt it :(

Nuzrat, put your 'hate' for Muslims aside for a moment. Is Bush the
first Western leader to screw up Z when the problem is in C? Think,
yaar :( Iran was screwed up in 1953 for money. Baghdad is screwed in
2003 for money. Kabul was screwed for money. Now Iran and Syria will
be screwed for money. And the real problem? Living large ;-)

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Bin Laden is George Bush's creation, he was a minor figure in fighting
the Russians in Afghanistan 20 years ago. Blaming him for everything
evil, only serves to protect the Saudi rulers, his true masters.

Actually, Bin Laden was created long before Bush but like the majority
of the Western leaders, he is just dodging the issue. He was no minor
figure in Afghanistan, the CIA taught him everything he needs to know.
And now his money is making millions in Wall Street. Is Bush
interested in stopping him? Heck no.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
British have been gone for over 50 years yet Pakiland has managed to
remain lot poorer than it was under the British.
Whereas Hindu India has made great strides in many fields Pakiland has
managed to remain a basket case like most other Muslim countries
without the oil.

Because Pakistan has not dealt with the root of the problem. If the
Pakis let go Pushtanistan and Kashmir, Pakistan will prosper. It is
not a Muslim thing but the British studied the cultures of the people
and used that to really screw them up for life.

Also, Christendom was NEVER threated by Hinduism. Christians did not
start looking at Hinduism until 1960s when the song "Dum Maro
Dum"(Asha Bhosle) captures the exact thing they were after; yippism,
which Christendom wasn't threatened by ;-) On the other hand, hundreds
of thousands of Christians a year have been leaving Christendom for
Islam for centuries.

So, where majority of Muslims lived, the British Empire did its utmost
to really screw them, systematically... so far that they would never
recover them from it. What can I say, in many instances (like
Malaysia, Turkey, UAE, etc,) they failed... while in other places
(like Pakistan, Iran, Somalia, et cetera) they didn't.

But don't worry, the internet has reached these lands... and things
are changing pretty quick and there is not a damned thing they can do
about it.




Afdhere

[1MAN4ALL]

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
How do you know when the child molester banged her, were you there?

Uhm, how do you know she was six? :) The stories are both from the
Hadith. In fact, outside of the Hadith -- which I never trust -- the
girl was 16 when the dude married her. But since you brought the
Hadithi story, I was giving you the correct Hadithi version.

See my web site:
http://www.geocities.com/islam_1man4all/Ayesha.htm

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by 1MAN4ALL

Post by Afdhere Jama
Uhm, how do you know she was six? :) The stories are both from the
Hadith. In fact, outside of the Hadith -- which I never trust -- the
girl was 16 when the dude married her. But since you brought the
Hadithi story, I was giving you the correct Hadithi version.

http://www.geocities.com/islam_1man4all/Ayesha.htm

Sorry, didn't even notice that :) Thanks.



Afdhere

[Nusrat Rizvi]

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
How do you know when the child molester banged her, were you there?

Uhm, how do you know she was six? :) The stories are both from the
Hadith. In fact, outside of the Hadith -- which I never trust -- the
girl was 16 when the dude married her. But since you brought the
Hadithi story, I was giving you the correct Hadithi version.

I wouldn't be one bit surprised if his defenders now come up with new
evidence showing her to be 18 just to make this pervert look more
palatable to the Westerners.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Mohammed has number of times flaunted rules he imposed on his
followers.

Really, like when? You mean like when he married his son's wife? ROFL.
Give me a break.

How but this, did the pervert not tell his followers to treat all
their wives equally and equatability. Did Mohammed not have
a favorite wife, the tight pussied Ayisha.
Did Mohammed not passed a rule about 4 wives for his followers
while he himself had about 13 if my memory serves me right, not
counting the concubines which were not accurately recorded.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
No idea what the hell you are trying to say here.
Remember this, history is always written by victors so it is not hard
to imagine most of derogatory information about the pervert has
already been expunged.

Well, take a little trip to Egypt and go to the Cairo library. Plenty
of derogatory stuff against Muhammad that actually pre-date the
Hadiths (which were 'collected' 200 years after Muhammad's death.) In
fact, there are opposition and derogatory information to Muhammad by
Arabs of Medina and Mecca even before the Qur'an -- as we know it
today -- was put together by Uthman (decades after Muhammad's death.)

No idiot, the hadits were collected and recorded by his
contemporaries, sometimes on the spot. It is dumb, stupid and Islamic
to suggest anyone would wait 200 years before cataloging them.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Study history, yaar :) It empowers you. You could have much more
standing arguments than just going around personal insulting the
personality of the dude.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Dont gimme that stupid bullshit, talk to me as if you are speaking to
human and not arabs.

Well, ask your people-- most of whom "speak" like the Arabs then :-)
Since I'm neither Arab nor Pakistani, I guess you fail to grasp my
point :(

Then perhaps find an Arab to translate your gibberish since only they
think like you do.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Muslims went and destroyed old civilizations like Iran, Turkey,
Africa, and even European Spain. You are claiming this perfidious deed
was done by a select few?

HA! What civilization did Muslims destroy? What about Iran or Turkey
or Africa that has been destroyed?
For one, Africa is predominantly Christian. Iran and Turkey are still
as they were. You mean that Islam required that they no longer oppress
Jews and sell them into slavery? Or that they no longer should worship
gods? What besides that did Islam take away from them?

Iran and Turkey along with many other countries had cultures of their
own which was decemated by the Arabs.

Post by Afdhere Jama
As for Spain, please do me a favor and visit Spain. The most beautiful
time in the history of ALL Europe was when Islam had a hold on Spain.
By the way, did you know it was the Jews who helped the Muslims win
over Spain? ;-) In return, some of the oldest and most beautiful
Jewish thoughts were written during this period. Try again :)

The barbaric Arabs did not go around on a creative binge, they made
their new country great after learning more about the European
civilization and infused it with their own. Remember, Morocco remains
a garbage dump today just as it was in the 7th century.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
US put Saudis in Arabia? or the Mullahs in Iran.
How about Khaddafy or Suharto, or Bhutto, the list is endless.
It is Islam that brings forth the loonies to power, not Jews, not
Christians not the Hindus but only the child molester and his puke
that gives to Muslims such terrible leaders.

Ok, this is the problem :) USA did not do much until recently (1950s.)
It was the British that put the current Saud family in power. USA did
take out a democratically elected official who was good for Iran per
British request (1953?) Again, read "All the Shah's Men" by Stephen
Kinzer.

Saudi family came to power at the turn of the century when no one in
the West knew anything about these animals. But if it suits your
foolish purposes to blame everything on the West than this distortion
of history should be nothing new either.

Post by Afdhere Jama
As for Qaddafi, he was born out of the hate the West created. The West
put the Royals in power, (King Idris I. Qaddafi), which was why
Qaddafi and all of Libya turned anti-Western... and kicked out the
military base of the US and UK in 1970. Exactly same thing that
happened in Iran. That is the problem. The West creates enemies for
itself.... because it just can't resist not supporting evils who
oppress their people. Again, read history.

King Idris was a ruler of Libya long before anyone knew of a place
called Libya, again you ignorantly blame the WEst for creating Idris.
Didn't you love this paying $2.7 billion dollars to victims of Pan Am
disaster, how Arabic can you get.

Post by Afdhere Jama
As for Suharto, while he was personally corrupted and stole his
country's wealth for personal gain, he did make Indonesia much better
after Sukarno. And I always liked Bhutto because she was a woman that
ruled her people :)

Indonesia was better under Dutch rule by any standards. More freedom
longer life and more wealth.
Her only claim to fame was stealing a few million dollars from the
impoverished society, this charge was hurled at her not by her
opponents but by the Swiss Govt. which froze her bank accounts.
Is she god enough Muslim for you now, she sure is typical.

Post by Afdhere Jama
As for loony Christians, Jews and Hindus. I think I will now forget
the worst man in our history-- Hitler... who was Christian. Not to
mention Musollini, the Popes, and all the crappy and oppressive Euro
leaders of the past 2000 years. If all the evils that took place in
the last 2000 years were put on scale, over 70% of it would be by
Christendom. Do you have any idea how evil Europe LITERALLY screwed up
the world? At least 80% of African, South American, Asian, etc,
problems are rooted the fucked up way that Europe systematically
turned these people upside down.

Hitler was as much a Christian as I am a Catholic.
Listen Muslim idiot, India too suffered under British rule nut not
being Muslims, they put their past behind them and work for a better
tomorrow.

Post by Afdhere Jama
As for Jews, Jews haven't had any Jewish leaders since the old days
and until Israel. Nobody seems to elect the Jews, which is terrible in
itself. And lets not even start with Israeli leaders... who are
virtually repeating what Europe did to them on the Palestinians.
Jewish leaders in the West have also usually been "behind the scenes"
with their crap. And I'm also going to forget blood-thirsty son of
bitch Paul Wolfitz, who is Jewish, and perhaps single handedly the man
responsible for the stupid war in Iraq.

Of course you would find scant little referrences in your Holy Koran
about Benjamin Desaeli would you.
Paul Wolfitz is a minor player in US politics but if it makes you feel
better, so be it.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Hindus, like Jews, are not elected elsewhere mostly. Only in India.
And don't get me on what the Sikhs and non-Hindus in India have been
through.

You have been protected from reading Islamic history of the last 50
years, aren't you. You would then have learned how the Pakis murdered
3.5 million Bengalis in 1971 when they asked for freedom from
Pakistan.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Bullshit, the scheme was financed by the Saudis and only Saudis. Bush
is doing his utmost to protect these animals cause going after the
real culprit would hurt the family business.

Well, we just said the same thing. I guess you couldn't graspt it :(
Nuzrat, put your 'hate' for Muslims aside for a moment. Is Bush the
first Western leader to screw up Z when the problem is in C? Think,
yaar :( Iran was screwed up in 1953 for money. Baghdad is screwed in
2003 for money. Kabul was screwed for money. Now Iran and Syria will
be screwed for money. And the real problem? Living large ;-)

How do you live in the West harbouring such hatred against it?
BTW, how much money does Afghanistan have?

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Bin Laden is George Bush's creation, he was a minor figure in fighting
the Russians in Afghanistan 20 years ago. Blaming him for everything
evil, only serves to protect the Saudi rulers, his true masters.

Actually, Bin Laden was created long before Bush but like the majority
of the Western leaders, he is just dodging the issue. He was no minor
figure in Afghanistan, the CIA taught him everything he needs to know.
And now his money is making millions in Wall Street. Is Bush
interested in stopping him? Heck no.

You mean CIA gave him special classes or was he just another of
hundreds of Mujahadeens helped by the CIA against the Russians.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
British have been gone for over 50 years yet Pakiland has managed to
remain lot poorer than it was under the British.
Whereas Hindu India has made great strides in many fields Pakiland has
managed to remain a basket case like most other Muslim countries
without the oil.

Because Pakistan has not dealt with the root of the problem. If the
Pakis let go Pushtanistan and Kashmir, Pakistan will prosper. It is
not a Muslim thing but the British studied the cultures of the people
and used that to really screw them up for life.

So Punjabis are not the root cause, the British are. How intelligent
of you to share this brilliant piece of deduction with us.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Also, Christendom was NEVER threated by Hinduism. Christians did not
start looking at Hinduism until 1960s when the song "Dum Maro
Dum"(Asha Bhosle) captures the exact thing they were after; yippism,
which Christendom wasn't threatened by ;-) On the other hand, hundreds
of thousands of Christians a year have been leaving Christendom for
Islam for centuries.

Hundreds of thousands of Christians?
Only converts to Islam I see are the blacks in the US prisons.Small
wonder Islams appeals to rapists and murderers.

Post by Afdhere Jama
So, where majority of Muslims lived, the British Empire did its utmost
to really screw them, systematically... so far that they would never
recover them from it. What can I say, in many instances (like
Malaysia, Turkey, UAE, etc,) they failed... while in other places
(like Pakistan, Iran, Somalia, et cetera) they didn't.

Again, the fault lies, this time with the Brits?

Post by Afdhere Jama
But don't worry, the internet has reached these lands... and things
are changing pretty quick and there is not a damned thing they can do
about it.

West creates knowledge and information Islam and Islamic countries
hate knowledge and exchange of information. Remember the controlled
press in all Islamic countries. But you are happy reading Koran, so I
will not further detain you from your enjoyment.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Afdhere

[€ R.L. Measures]

Post by Nusrat Rizvi

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
How do you know when the child molester banged her, were you there?

Uhm, how do you know she was six? :) The stories are both from the
Hadith. In fact, outside of the Hadith -- which I never trust -- the
girl was 16 when the dude married her. But since you brought the
Hadithi story, I was giving you the correct Hadithi version.

I wouldn't be one bit surprised if his defenders now come up with new
evidence showing her to be 18 just to make this pervert look more
palatable to the Westerners.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Mohammed has number of times flaunted rules he imposed on his
followers.

Really, like when? You mean like when he married his son's wife? ROFL.
Give me a break.

How but this, did the pervert not tell his followers to treat all
their wives equally and equatability. Did Mohammed not have
a favorite wife, the tight pussied Ayisha.
Did Mohammed not passed a rule about 4 wives for his followers
while he himself had about 13 if my memory serves me right, not
counting the concubines which were not accurately recorded.

€ The Koran allows a married man to copulate as many "slave girls" as he
owns. [23:5]

Post by Nusrat Rizvi

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
No idea what the hell you are trying to say here.
Remember this, history is always written by victors so it is not hard
to imagine most of derogatory information about the pervert has
already been expunged.

Well, take a little trip to Egypt and go to the Cairo library. Plenty
of derogatory stuff against Muhammad that actually pre-date the
Hadiths (which were 'collected' 200 years after Muhammad's death.) In
fact, there are opposition and derogatory information to Muhammad by
Arabs of Medina and Mecca even before the Qur'an -- as we know it
today -- was put together by Uthman (decades after Muhammad's death.)

No idiot, the hadits were collected and recorded by his
contemporaries, sometimes on the spot. It is dumb, stupid and Islamic
to suggest anyone would wait 200 years before cataloging them.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Study history, yaar :) It empowers you. You could have much more
standing arguments than just going around personal insulting the
personality of the dude.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Dont gimme that stupid bullshit, talk to me as if you are speaking to
human and not arabs.

Well, ask your people-- most of whom "speak" like the Arabs then :-)
Since I'm neither Arab nor Pakistani, I guess you fail to grasp my
point :(

Then perhaps find an Arab to translate your gibberish since only they
think like you do.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Muslims went and destroyed old civilizations like Iran, Turkey,
Africa, and even European Spain. You are claiming this perfidious deed
was done by a select few?

HA! What civilization did Muslims destroy? What about Iran or Turkey
or Africa that has been destroyed?
For one, Africa is predominantly Christian. Iran and Turkey are still
as they were. You mean that Islam required that they no longer oppress
Jews and sell them into slavery? Or that they no longer should worship
gods? What besides that did Islam take away from them?

Iran and Turkey along with many other countries had cultures of their
own which was decemated by the Arabs.

Post by Afdhere Jama
As for Spain, please do me a favor and visit Spain. The most beautiful
time in the history of ALL Europe was when Islam had a hold on Spain.
By the way, did you know it was the Jews who helped the Muslims win
over Spain? ;-) In return, some of the oldest and most beautiful
Jewish thoughts were written during this period. Try again :)

The barbaric Arabs did not go around on a creative binge, they made
their new country great after learning more about the European
civilization and infused it with their own. Remember, Morocco remains
a garbage dump today just as it was in the 7th century.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
US put Saudis in Arabia? or the Mullahs in Iran.
How about Khaddafy or Suharto, or Bhutto, the list is endless.
It is Islam that brings forth the loonies to power, not Jews, not
Christians not the Hindus but only the child molester and his puke
that gives to Muslims such terrible leaders.

Ok, this is the problem :) USA did not do much until recently (1950s.)
It was the British that put the current Saud family in power. USA did
take out a democratically elected official who was good for Iran per
British request (1953?) Again, read "All the Shah's Men" by Stephen
Kinzer.

Saudi family came to power at the turn of the century when no one in
the West knew anything about these animals. But if it suits your
foolish purposes to blame everything on the West than this distortion
of history should be nothing new either.

Post by Afdhere Jama
As for Qaddafi, he was born out of the hate the West created. The West
put the Royals in power, (King Idris I. Qaddafi), which was why
Qaddafi and all of Libya turned anti-Western... and kicked out the
military base of the US and UK in 1970. Exactly same thing that
happened in Iran. That is the problem. The West creates enemies for
itself.... because it just can't resist not supporting evils who
oppress their people. Again, read history.

King Idris was a ruler of Libya long before anyone knew of a place
called Libya, again you ignorantly blame the WEst for creating Idris.
Didn't you love this paying $2.7 billion dollars to victims of Pan Am
disaster, how Arabic can you get.

Post by Afdhere Jama
As for Suharto, while he was personally corrupted and stole his
country's wealth for personal gain, he did make Indonesia much better
after Sukarno. And I always liked Bhutto because she was a woman that
ruled her people :)

Indonesia was better under Dutch rule by any standards. More freedom
longer life and more wealth.
Her only claim to fame was stealing a few million dollars from the
impoverished society, this charge was hurled at her not by her
opponents but by the Swiss Govt. which froze her bank accounts.
Is she god enough Muslim for you now, she sure is typical.

Post by Afdhere Jama
As for loony Christians, Jews and Hindus. I think I will now forget
the worst man in our history-- Hitler... who was Christian. Not to
mention Musollini, the Popes, and all the crappy and oppressive Euro
leaders of the past 2000 years. If all the evils that took place in
the last 2000 years were put on scale, over 70% of it would be by
Christendom. Do you have any idea how evil Europe LITERALLY screwed up
the world? At least 80% of African, South American, Asian, etc,
problems are rooted the fucked up way that Europe systematically
turned these people upside down.

Hitler was as much a Christian as I am a Catholic.
Listen Muslim idiot, India too suffered under British rule nut not
being Muslims, they put their past behind them and work for a better
tomorrow.

Post by Afdhere Jama
As for Jews, Jews haven't had any Jewish leaders since the old days
and until Israel. Nobody seems to elect the Jews, which is terrible in
itself. And lets not even start with Israeli leaders... who are
virtually repeating what Europe did to them on the Palestinians.
Jewish leaders in the West have also usually been "behind the scenes"
with their crap. And I'm also going to forget blood-thirsty son of
bitch Paul Wolfitz, who is Jewish, and perhaps single handedly the man
responsible for the stupid war in Iraq.

Of course you would find scant little referrences in your Holy Koran
about Benjamin Desaeli would you.
Paul Wolfitz is a minor player in US politics but if it makes you feel
better, so be it.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Hindus, like Jews, are not elected elsewhere mostly. Only in India.
And don't get me on what the Sikhs and non-Hindus in India have been
through.

You have been protected from reading Islamic history of the last 50
years, aren't you. You would then have learned how the Pakis murdered
3.5 million Bengalis in 1971 when they asked for freedom from
Pakistan.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Bullshit, the scheme was financed by the Saudis and only Saudis. Bush
is doing his utmost to protect these animals cause going after the
real culprit would hurt the family business.

Well, we just said the same thing. I guess you couldn't graspt it :(
Nuzrat, put your 'hate' for Muslims aside for a moment. Is Bush the
first Western leader to screw up Z when the problem is in C? Think,
yaar :( Iran was screwed up in 1953 for money. Baghdad is screwed in
2003 for money. Kabul was screwed for money. Now Iran and Syria will
be screwed for money. And the real problem? Living large ;-)

How do you live in the West harbouring such hatred against it?
BTW, how much money does Afghanistan have?

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Bin Laden is George Bush's creation, he was a minor figure in fighting
the Russians in Afghanistan 20 years ago. Blaming him for everything
evil, only serves to protect the Saudi rulers, his true masters.

Actually, Bin Laden was created long before Bush but like the majority
of the Western leaders, he is just dodging the issue. He was no minor
figure in Afghanistan, the CIA taught him everything he needs to know.
And now his money is making millions in Wall Street. Is Bush
interested in stopping him? Heck no.

You mean CIA gave him special classes or was he just another of
hundreds of Mujahadeens helped by the CIA against the Russians.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
British have been gone for over 50 years yet Pakiland has managed to
remain lot poorer than it was under the British.
Whereas Hindu India has made great strides in many fields Pakiland has
managed to remain a basket case like most other Muslim countries
without the oil.

Because Pakistan has not dealt with the root of the problem. If the
Pakis let go Pushtanistan and Kashmir, Pakistan will prosper. It is
not a Muslim thing but the British studied the cultures of the people
and used that to really screw them up for life.

So Punjabis are not the root cause, the British are. How intelligent
of you to share this brilliant piece of deduction with us.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Also, Christendom was NEVER threated by Hinduism. Christians did not
start looking at Hinduism until 1960s when the song "Dum Maro
Dum"(Asha Bhosle) captures the exact thing they were after; yippism,
which Christendom wasn't threatened by ;-) On the other hand, hundreds
of thousands of Christians a year have been leaving Christendom for
Islam for centuries.

Hundreds of thousands of Christians?
Only converts to Islam I see are the blacks in the US prisons.Small
wonder Islams appeals to rapists and murderers.

Post by Afdhere Jama
So, where majority of Muslims lived, the British Empire did its utmost
to really screw them, systematically... so far that they would never
recover them from it. What can I say, in many instances (like
Malaysia, Turkey, UAE, etc,) they failed... while in other places
(like Pakistan, Iran, Somalia, et cetera) they didn't.

Again, the fault lies, this time with the Brits?

Post by Afdhere Jama
But don't worry, the internet has reached these lands... and things
are changing pretty quick and there is not a damned thing they can do
about it.

West creates knowledge and information Islam and Islamic countries
hate knowledge and exchange of information. Remember the controlled
press in all Islamic countries. But you are happy reading Koran, so I
will not further detain you from your enjoyment.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Afdhere

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
I wouldn't be one bit surprised if his defenders now come up with new
evidence showing her to be 18 just to make this pervert look more
palatable to the Westerners.

Actually, it is non-Muslim sources... but hey... I don't think I
really care what you believe. It is rather evident that you neither
know history.... nor care to lear :(

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
How but this, did the pervert not tell his followers to treat all
their wives equally and equatability. Did Mohammed not have
a favorite wife, the tight pussied Ayisha.
Did Mohammed not passed a rule about 4 wives for his followers
while he himself had about 13 if my memory serves me right, not
counting the concubines which were not accurately recorded.

Again, cocamae stories and not even one truth. First of, Muhammad was
not married to more than four women at a time. That is, since the
verse was revealed... limitting only to four. Second, from the Qur'an
we gather that the four are only about mothers of orphans and in fact
God tells us in the Qur'an that a man is only created with one heart
and that it is impossible to be equitable to more than one wife.

Hence, what that means is that you marry your wife-- then you marry
the mothers of orphans (widows) as much as four. And you are supposed
to treat them equally. Muhammad did treat all of his wives equal. He
never spent with Aisha any more time than he spent with all of his
wife. The truth was that she was the one whom he married by choice.
And the rest were women he married to make a point in Islam(as the ex-
of his adopted son, i.e, that it is allowed in Islam,) mothers of
orphans and widows in general.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
No idiot, the hadits were collected and recorded by his
contemporaries, sometimes on the spot. It is dumb, stupid and Islamic
to suggest anyone would wait 200 years before cataloging them.

ROFL. Nuzrat, read history! The men who collected the Hadiths lived
about 200 years after Muhammad. Uff, this is pre-school stuff.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Then perhaps find an Arab to translate your gibberish since only they
think like you do.

ROFL. If they speak in gibberish, why did the majority of your people
accept their gibberish? :)

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Iran and Turkey along with many other countries had cultures of their
own which was decemated by the Arabs.

Yes, idolatory and oppression on their neighbors (both which they
still do, to an extent.) Anything else?

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
The barbaric Arabs did not go around on a creative binge, they made
their new country great after learning more about the European
civilization and infused it with their own. Remember, Morocco remains
a garbage dump today just as it was in the 7th century.

European civilization! HAHAHA. Oh LORD... now I really pitty you. In
truth, Europe has been nothing but irrelevant in terms of being
civilized. I don't believe in great civilizations going around the
world colonizing others--- bringing idiotic racist beliefs.

As for Morocco, check out their tourism :)

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Saudi family came to power at the turn of the century when no one in
the West knew anything about these animals. But if it suits your
foolish purposes to blame everything on the West than this distortion
of history should be nothing new either.

This again shows your complete ignorance of even modern history :( The
British helped Ibn Saudi (the father of "Saudi Arabia" as it is today)
win Hajez and Nedj and combine it as his Kingdom. In fact, the British
supported him all the way from Kuwait. They favored his rival Ibn
Husayn Ali (king of Hejaz) until the dude turned on the British by
refusing to sign the Treaty of Versailles; which forced the British to
side 100% with his rival Ibn Saud.

The sad fact is that not even the West hides these facts, it is just
that you have been so brainwashed that you do not know any of the
horrible things they have done if it smacked you in the face. After
all, they were "civilized", right? ROFL.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
King Idris was a ruler of Libya long before anyone knew of a place
called Libya, again you ignorantly blame the WEst for creating Idris.
Didn't you love this paying $2.7 billion dollars to victims of Pan Am
disaster, how Arabic can you get.

OH LORD... even getting worse. Nuzrat, in 1943 the British helped him
come back from his exile to Egypt and put him in power. In 1953 when
the independence was given to Libya, he was given the title of King.

Before that, in 1920 the Italian gave him the title of "Emir of
Cyrenaica." That time, he was only a religious leader of the sect his
father founded, called the Sanusi sect. Only two years later, he
fought with the Italian fascists and run to Egypt... which the British
brought him back from in early 1940s.

It is better to just be silent... when you don't know what you are
talking about. Chup, yaar! Tumhari tarikh bhot kharab hai :((

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Indonesia was better under Dutch rule by any standards. More freedom
longer life and more wealth.
Her only claim to fame was stealing a few million dollars from the
impoverished society, this charge was hurled at her not by her
opponents but by the Swiss Govt. which froze her bank accounts.
Is she god enough Muslim for you now, she sure is typical.

I guess you don't believe in "give me liberty or give me death." No
matter how "worse" it is, it is ALWAYS better to be under one's own
people. But I guess you are already brush-painted with such crap.

Did you know that in early 1900s, thousands of Hindus in Bali island
carried out suicide missions against the Dutch? The Dutch were very
oppressive and they favored the Muslims and Christians while the
Sikhs, Hindus, etc, were left to nothing.

For four long years, the Inodnesian people collectively fought the
Dutch. Hundreds of thousands of them perished in the process. Why the
hell do you think they were doing that?

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Hitler was as much a Christian as I am a Catholic.
Listen Muslim idiot, India too suffered under British rule nut not
being Muslims, they put their past behind them and work for a better
tomorrow.

Well, I don't know how much Catholic you are -- but Hitler was
definitely a cutie for the church, having Popes visit him and bless
him. I guess you don't know anything about the Pius XII. His concordat
with the Nazi Germany must be the most horrific thing that happened in
the 20th century. And not speaking out against the destruction of six
million innocent Jews speaks volumes of his evil connection with the
evil SOB Hitler, not to mention not doing enough to protect his own
country's Jews (Italy.)

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Of course you would find scant little referrences in your Holy Koran
about Benjamin Desaeli would you.
Paul Wolfitz is a minor player in US politics but if it makes you feel
better, so be it.

LOOOOOOOOL! Disraeli was baptized by his dad (Isaac D'Israeli) when he
was 13. Pretty much a Christian all of his life. He was as Jewish as
... oh ... who should I compare him to.... hhhhmmm....

I was talking about a JEW, actually... not people who converted to
other religions... and certainly not to Christianity, which is a sure
way exist from Judaism as opposed to turning to Buddhism or Hindusim,
which the Jewish person is thought of Jewish still by Judaism.


As for Wolfowitz, read here;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A47612-2003May12?language=printer


So, now I guess you are also ignorant of the current events? :(

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
You have been protected from reading Islamic history of the last 50
years, aren't you. You would then have learned how the Pakis murdered
3.5 million Bengalis in 1971 when they asked for freedom from
Pakistan.

Yes, because the British have put them together. They should have
their own country from the get go. That said, lets not forget that
many of them were also Muslims... just like many of the murderers were
Muslims.

I do not refuse the fact that some Muslims have been very evil at
times history. But then I know the fact that their neighbors have been
worse, if not equally evil. And that has to do with their (common)
cultures, rather than Islam.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
How do you live in the West harbouring such hatred against it?
BTW, how much money does Afghanistan have?

Hatred? I don't hate anyone. By the way, these facts are taught to me
by the West, mind you. And people like me in the West, regardless of
their faith, are coming together for a better world.

And was I talking about direct money? :) Don't think so poorly.
Messing up Afghanistan even more than the past was just another year
away from the real problem (Saudi) whose money our governments are
making dodge the issue.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
You mean CIA gave him special classes or was he just another of
hundreds of Mujahadeens helped by the CIA against the Russians.

No, he was one of the many leaders... of the "mujahadeen" trained by
the CIA. He founded Makhtab al Khadimat (MAK), agency that brought
(nutty) Muslims from all over the world... which the CIA trained.
Coincidently, he found this crappy agency in your country, which is
kinda sad that you don't even know abou it :(

This terrorist-from-the-get-go left his crappy agency in 1987 and
become an international khiladi :)) a supernatural terrorist of the
first order. Who did he start with? Hehehe... I love it when Karma
comes back to bite evil goons who support other evils. It is nature's
sweet revenge on the oppressors, henna? ;-)

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
So Punjabis are not the root cause, the British are. How intelligent
of you to share this brilliant piece of deduction with us.

No, they certainly are NOT. Punjabi Muslims should have been given
just what they deserve. I don't undertsan why Sikhstan(sikhs),
Pushtinstan(Pushtans) and Bengladesh(Bengals) and others had to be
combed all in :(

It was a "Zakhmi Dil" of the worst kind and exactly what "civilized"
Europe wanted.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Hundreds of thousands of Christians?
Only converts to Islam I see are the blacks in the US prisons.Small
wonder Islams appeals to rapists and murderers.

Actually, I was talking about Christians in Europe, Africa, Asia, etc.
Christians converting to Islam in America is very, very recent
compared to the Christians leaving for Islam since the 7th century.

That said, the majority of Muslims in the US are Sunni Blacks who have
never been in prison. Keep up the idiotic racist British crap...

Post by Nusrat Rizvi

Post by Afdhere Jama
So, where majority of Muslims lived, the British Empire did its utmost
to really screw them, systematically... so far that they would never
recover them from it. What can I say, in many instances (like
Malaysia, Turkey, UAE, etc,) they failed... while in other places
(like Pakistan, Iran, Somalia, et cetera) they didn't.

Again, the fault lies, this time with the Brits?

Yes. Very much so. Maybe you didn't hear what I said, they
SYSTEMATICALLY, uhm, hehe, well, uhm, fucked them up :-)

Post by Nusrat Rizvi

Post by Afdhere Jama
But don't worry, the internet has reached these lands... and things
are changing pretty quick and there is not a damned thing they can do
about it.

West creates knowledge and information Islam and Islamic countries
hate knowledge and exchange of information. Remember the controlled
press in all Islamic countries. But you are happy reading Koran, so I
will not further detain you from your enjoyment.

Yes, and the West also exports terror to the world. Look up the worst
of oppressors, and find out who supported them. Not the East, I
promise you :-P

And, believe it or not, the Qur'an guides those who wish to be guided.
And the Qur'an is certainly NOT going to change the evil hearts among
men. And no matter how Arab and Muslim they become, Egypt and Assyria
-- as well as Babylon and Persia -- will always have those who itch
for Jews. And no matter how many times they say "la ilah ilaa Allah,"
Desi cultures will always want to topple and rule each other and their
neighbors.

But the majority of any people are good and so are the aforementioned.
The silent majority will soon be informed on all the whacked things
their minorities do in their name... and the internet is gonna free
them. You will see :)




Afdhere

[Nusrat Rizvi]

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
I wouldn't be one bit surprised if his defenders now come up with new
evidence showing her to be 18 just to make this pervert look more
palatable to the Westerners.

Actually, it is non-Muslim sources... but hey... I don't think I
really care what you believe. It is rather evident that you neither
know history.... nor care to lear :(

What non Muslim sources or are you being bashful again when cornered.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
How but this, did the pervert not tell his followers to treat all
their wives equally and equatability. Did Mohammed not have
a favorite wife, the tight pussied Ayisha.
Did Mohammed not passed a rule about 4 wives for his followers
while he himself had about 13 if my memory serves me right, not
counting the concubines which were not accurately recorded.

Again, cocamae stories and not even one truth. First of, Muhammad was
not married to more than four women at a time. That is, since the
verse was revealed... limitting only to four. Second, from the Qur'an
we gather that the four are only about mothers of orphans and in fact
God tells us in the Qur'an that a man is only created with one heart
and that it is impossible to be equitable to more than one wife.

Bullshit and lies, Mohammed had a full blown Harem filled with wives
slaves girls and concubines, all this is well documented.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Hence, what that means is that you marry your wife-- then you marry
the mothers of orphans (widows) as much as four. And you are supposed
to treat them equally. Muhammad did treat all of his wives equal. He
never spent with Aisha any more time than he spent with all of his
wife. The truth was that she was the one whom he married by choice.
And the rest were women he married to make a point in Islam(as the ex-
of his adopted son, i.e, that it is allowed in Islam,) mothers of
orphans and widows in general.

Oh I see, he did it all to protect the orphans, nice job if you can
get it.

Despite your lies, Ayisha was his all time favorite.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
No idiot, the hadits were collected and recorded by his
contemporaries, sometimes on the spot. It is dumb, stupid and Islamic
to suggest anyone would wait 200 years before cataloging them.

ROFL. Nuzrat, read history! The men who collected the Hadiths lived
about 200 years after Muhammad. Uff, this is pre-school stuff.

Pre-school? and you doubt have a Phd.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Then perhaps find an Arab to translate your gibberish since only they
think like you do.

ROFL. If they speak in gibberish, why did the majority of your people
accept their gibberish? :)

Majority of my people, who might that be, O great genius.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Iran and Turkey along with many other countries had cultures of their
own which was decemated by the Arabs.

Yes, idolatory and oppression on their neighbors (both which they
still do, to an extent.) Anything else?

Muslims have a right to go and destroy others religions, why cant the
others do the same to Islam?

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
The barbaric Arabs did not go around on a creative binge, they made
their new country great after learning more about the European
civilization and infused it with their own. Remember, Morocco remains
a garbage dump today just as it was in the 7th century.

European civilization! HAHAHA. Oh LORD... now I really pitty you. In
truth, Europe has been nothing but irrelevant in terms of being
civilized. I don't believe in great civilizations going around the
world colonizing others--- bringing idiotic racist beliefs.
As for Morocco, check out their tourism :)

Check out their tourism?
The number of Moroccan bodies drowned in their efforts to reach Europe
is creating health problems both in Spain and Italy. Is this also
listed in their tourism brochures.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Indonesia was better under Dutch rule by any standards. More freedom
longer life and more wealth.
Her only claim to fame was stealing a few million dollars from the
impoverished society, this charge was hurled at her not by her
opponents but by the Swiss Govt. which froze her bank accounts.
Is she god enough Muslim for you now, she sure is typical.

I guess you don't believe in "give me liberty or give me death." No
matter how "worse" it is, it is ALWAYS better to be under one's own
people. But I guess you are already brush-painted with such crap.

Ask any Pakistani old enough to remember the British rule.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Did you know that in early 1900s, thousands of Hindus in Bali island
carried out suicide missions against the Dutch? The Dutch were very
oppressive and they favored the Muslims and Christians while the
Sikhs, Hindus, etc, were left to nothing.
For four long years, the Inodnesian people collectively fought the
Dutch. Hundreds of thousands of them perished in the process. Why the
hell do you think they were doing that?

Because Sukarno was Indonesian but lot more corrupt than any Dutchman.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Hitler was as much a Christian as I am a Catholic.
Listen Muslim idiot, India too suffered under British rule nut not
being Muslims, they put their past behind them and work for a better
tomorrow.

Well, I don't know how much Catholic you are -- but Hitler was
definitely a cutie for the church, having Popes visit him and bless
him. I guess you don't know anything about the Pius XII. His concordat
with the Nazi Germany must be the most horrific thing that happened in
the 20th century. And not speaking out against the destruction of six
million innocent Jews speaks volumes of his evil connection with the
evil SOB Hitler, not to mention not doing enough to protect his own
country's Jews (Italy.)

Popes visited Hitler?
This has to be written in Quran because this was never reported in any
Western Media.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Of course you would find scant little referrences in your Holy Koran
about Benjamin Desaeli would you.
Paul Wolfitz is a minor player in US politics but if it makes you feel
better, so be it.

LOOOOOOOOL! Disraeli was baptized by his dad (Isaac D'Israeli) when he
was 13. Pretty much a Christian all of his life. He was as Jewish as
... oh ... who should I compare him to.... hhhhmmm....
I was talking about a JEW, actually... not people who converted to
other religions... and certainly not to Christianity, which is a sure
way exist from Judaism as opposed to turning to Buddhism or Hindusim,
which the Jewish person is thought of Jewish still by Judaism.
As for Wolfowitz, read here;
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A47612-2003May12?language=printer

This is just one mans opinion.

Post by Afdhere Jama
So, now I guess you are also ignorant of the current events? :(

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
You have been protected from reading Islamic history of the last 50
years, aren't you. You would then have learned how the Pakis murdered
3.5 million Bengalis in 1971 when they asked for freedom from
Pakistan.

Yes, because the British have put them together. They should have
their own country from the get go. That said, lets not forget that
many of them were also Muslims... just like many of the murderers were
Muslims.
I do not refuse the fact that some Muslims have been very evil at
times history. But then I know the fact that their neighbors have been
worse, if not equally evil. And that has to do with their (common)
cultures, rather than Islam.

At times?
like now or do you recall any Muslim leaders as role model?

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
How do you live in the West harbouring such hatred against it?
BTW, how much money does Afghanistan have?

Hatred? I don't hate anyone. By the way, these facts are taught to me
by the West, mind you. And people like me in the West, regardless of
their faith, are coming together for a better world.

Better world?
You really mean Islamic world, dont you?

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Hundreds of thousands of Christians?
Only converts to Islam I see are the blacks in the US prisons.Small
wonder Islams appeals to rapists and murderers.

Actually, I was talking about Christians in Europe, Africa, Asia, etc.
Christians converting to Islam in America is very, very recent
compared to the Christians leaving for Islam since the 7th century.

Got any number of such converts above and beyond a few misfits?

Post by Afdhere Jama
That said, the majority of Muslims in the US are Sunni Blacks who have
never been in prison. Keep up the idiotic racist British crap...

I disagree, if you go into the prison site on the net you will be very
surprised by their numbers in the prison system.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi

Post by Afdhere Jama
So, where majority of Muslims lived, the British Empire did its utmost
to really screw them, systematically... so far that they would never
recover them from it. What can I say, in many instances (like
Malaysia, Turkey, UAE, etc,) they failed... while in other places
(like Pakistan, Iran, Somalia, et cetera) they didn't.

Again, the fault lies, this time with the Brits?

Yes. Very much so. Maybe you didn't hear what I said, they
SYSTEMATICALLY, uhm, hehe, well, uhm, fucked them up :-)

Post by Nusrat Rizvi

Post by Afdhere Jama
But don't worry, the internet has reached these lands... and things
are changing pretty quick and there is not a damned thing they can do
about it.

West creates knowledge and information Islam and Islamic countries
hate knowledge and exchange of information. Remember the controlled
press in all Islamic countries. But you are happy reading Koran, so I
will not further detain you from your enjoyment.

Yes, and the West also exports terror to the world. Look up the worst
of oppressors, and find out who supported them. Not the East, I
promise you :-P
And, believe it or not, the Qur'an guides those who wish to be guided.
And the Qur'an is certainly NOT going to change the evil hearts among
men. And no matter how Arab and Muslim they become, Egypt and Assyria
-- as well as Babylon and Persia -- will always have those who itch
for Jews. And no matter how many times they say "la ilah ilaa Allah,"
Desi cultures will always want to topple and rule each other and their
neighbors.
But the majority of any people are good and so are the aforementioned.
The silent majority will soon be informed on all the whacked things
their minorities do in their name... and the internet is gonna free
them. You will see :)
Afdhere

Majority of Muslims are criminals and deserve to be sent back to their
Islamic paradise.

[Jon]

Post by Afdhere Jama
In Islam, it is haram/illegal to marry children. It is perfectly fine
to marry people when they reach puberty. If you find that immoral,
fine, but those are the beliefs and cultures of people.

The following is a question and fatwa ruling from the "ask imam"
website clearly contradicting your statement .. there are many similar
rulings on many other fatwa sites .. unless you regard yourself as
being a superior islamic scholar to the imams and muftis you'd have to
acknowledge you are wrong on this issue.

<http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6737>
-----
Question - "i am 45 and married to already 15 years now after the
sexual desire of my woman has nearly gone i am looking to marry again.
And i would like to marry a woman who is 12 years old, her father and
she has also agreed, my first wife told me that it could make problems
if it will be a big different in age, and also some of my children are
older than my second wife. What is your advise ? And is it allowed for
me to have already sexual intercourse with these woman after we are
married or to i have to wait till she reach at special age ?"

Answer - "According to the Shari'ah, if a girl is a minor (did not
attain puberty), she may be given in marriage by her father. When she
attains puberty, she has the right to maintain the marriage or
discontinue the marriage.

*There is no age limit to be intimate with one's wife even if she is a
minor.*

It is important for you, in your situation, to consider the age
difference reservation expressed by your wife.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai"
----

So there you have it .. in Islam, not only is legal to marry a
pre-pubescent child, it's also perfectly legal to have sex with her.

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by Jon
The following is a question and fatwa ruling from the "ask imam"
website clearly contradicting your statement .. there are many similar
rulings on many other fatwa sites .. unless you regard yourself as
being a superior islamic scholar to the imams and muftis you'd have to
acknowledge you are wrong on this issue.

Jon, you apparently misunderstood the 'fatwa'(what the?) it is more
like an answer by one sheikh :)

Anyway, as the dude says:

"According to the Shari'ah, if a girl is a minor (did not
attain puberty), she may be given in marriage by her father. When she
attains puberty, she has the right to maintain the marriage or
discontinue the marriage."

Hence, what that means is exactly what Abu Bakr(Aisha's father) and
Muhammad did. She was given into marriage but it is neither legal nor
moral to consumate it before she reaches puberty. It is un-Islamic.

When she reaches puberty, she can maintain the marriage (i.e, consume
it and go ahead with the life) or refuse it :-)

Take my brother for example, when he was born, he was given into
marriage to another girl born at the same time. When he reached
puberty, she refused to marry him :-) No biggie, man. Happens all the
time :((

The second minor the imam deals with is the legal purpose, which all
imams in the West include because it is agianst law while it is very
much Islamic. It is like the Mormon thingy ;-)

The problem I have with these imams just casually answering questions
on the internet is that they assume it is going to be read only by
Muslims so they talk the way Muslims understand it. Rather, they
should be very clear in their responses... and should suit a way for
the non-Muslims to understand it also. Otherwise, people will assume
the wrong things all the time :(





Afdhere

[Jon]

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Jon
The following is a question and fatwa ruling from the "ask imam"
website clearly contradicting your statement .. there are many similar
rulings on many other fatwa sites .. unless you regard yourself as
being a superior islamic scholar to the imams and muftis you'd have to
acknowledge you are wrong on this issue.

Jon, you apparently misunderstood the 'fatwa'(what the?) it is more
like an answer by one sheikh :)

Like I said .. there are NUMEROUS similar rulings by other Imams.

Post by Afdhere Jama
"According to the Shari'ah, if a girl is a minor (did not
attain puberty), she may be given in marriage by her father. When she
attains puberty, she has the right to maintain the marriage or
discontinue the marriage."
Hence, what that means is exactly what Abu Bakr(Aisha's father) and
Muhammad did. She was given into marriage but it is neither legal nor
moral to consumate it before she reaches puberty. It is un-Islamic.

Abu Bakr objected to the marriage only conceding when Mohammed insisted
it was"Allah's will"... It is very much immoral yet perfectly legal to
have sex with the girl even if she's pre-pubescent .. the example I
gave illustrates this point precisely.

Post by Afdhere Jama
When she reaches puberty, she can maintain the marriage (i.e, consume
it and go ahead with the life) or refuse it :-)

By the time she reaches puberty she's so submissive there's no way in
hell she's going to try ending the marriage .. the trouble with Muslim
attitude toward women is they think conceding skimpy technical "rights"
to women is enough when in reality it's very rare and difficult for
these "rights" to be realised.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Take my brother for example, when he was born, he was given into
marriage to another girl born at the same time. When he reached
puberty, she refused to marry him :-) No biggie, man. Happens all the
time :((

In Pakistan and most Arab nations this would usually result in the
death of the girl .. hell man, we're even seeing honour killings in the
west now!!

Post by Afdhere Jama
The second minor the imam deals with is the legal purpose, which all
imams in the West include because it is agianst law while it is very
much Islamic. It is like the Mormon thingy ;-)

what happened to the Mormons is probably going to happen to the Muslims.

Post by Afdhere Jama
The problem I have with these imams just casually answering questions
on the internet is that they assume it is going to be read only by
Muslims so they talk the way Muslims understand it. Rather, they
should be very clear in their responses... and should suit a way for
the non-Muslims to understand it also. Otherwise, people will assume
the wrong things all the time :(

Oh puhleeeaase spare me !!! .. I understood it exactly the way it was
intended .. "talk the way muslims understand it" .. my arse!! The guy
said it was legal to marry a child and have sex with her .. no
misunderstanding there... you're just peeved 'coz, thanks to the
internet, Islamic brutality is now exposed for all to see!

[Romanise]

Post by Jon

Post by Afdhere Jama
Take my brother for example, when he was born, he was given into
marriage to another girl born at the same time. When he reached
puberty, she refused to marry him :-) No biggie, man. Happens all the
time :((

On Channel 4 Sunday June 15th 8.00 pm program "Killing for Honour" by
Journalist Matt Barbour was broadcaste on honourkilling that took
place in UK over a year back where the killer came from Pakistan
occupied "Azad" Kashmir and went back there. A father originally from
Pakistan but settled first in Kashmir and then moved to UK was killed,
because he gave his son in marriage to a girl and when son came to age
and with UK education refused. The father was not an ordinary buthcher
type Pakistani, he was an established Advocate in UK.
Daughter and wife of the deseased are taken by the journalist to
Kashmir to face the killer and to plead with the Governer or Kashmir
to hand over the killer to UK authorities. A Mulla/Mufti is shown
talking to the boy who refused to go with the marriage. The boy is
pressurized to accept blood money but the boy is insistant on UK
justice to act.
The picture of the killed Advocate can be seen on
http://www.channel4.com/life/microsites/K/killing_honour/index.html
The details of the event and the discussion that followed is available
on http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/T/thinktv/comments/0603_kfh.html

Post by Jon
In Pakistan and most Arab nations this would usually result in the
death of the girl .. hell man, we're even seeing honour killings in the
west now!!

[Afdhere Jama]

It is virtually impossible to tell folks anything when they are
completely oppossed to the truth. Lets see...

Post by Jon
Like I said .. there are NUMEROUS similar rulings by other Imams.

Like who, pray tell? I'm all ears.

Post by Jon
Abu Bakr objected to the marriage only conceding when Mohammed insisted
it was"Allah's will"... It is very much immoral yet perfectly legal to
have sex with the girl even if she's pre-pubescent .. the example I
gave illustrates this point precisely.

And here I thought Abu Bakr was the one insisting the marriage. And
again, Muhammad did not sleep with the girl until she reached puberty.
You can claim baseless lies and that is just your choice.

Post by Jon
By the time she reaches puberty she's so submissive there's no way in
hell she's going to try ending the marriage .. the trouble with Muslim
attitude toward women is they think conceding skimpy technical "rights"
to women is enough when in reality it's very rare and difficult for
these "rights" to be realised.

Not true. First of, I don't know where people get this idea that
Muslim women are subsmissive. Muslim girls have always been raised to
be independent. Long before Feminism, Muslim women were religious
leaders to other Muslim women. In the Hadith, we see women going to
wars, divorcing their husbands, marrying their slaves, et cetera.

In fact, it is rare and difficult to actually find a submissive Muslim
woman. I think this is why non-Muslim men find themselves in mayhem
when they marry Muslim women. ;-) No, no, sir... try another sister
hehe.

Post by Jon
In Pakistan and most Arab nations this would usually result in the
death of the girl .. hell man, we're even seeing honour killings in the
west now!!

In Arab society, it is shameful for a woman to refuse a marriage
because it "dishonors" that man's reputation. In Pakistan, it is only
true for the Wahabbi-WANNA BEs.

As for honor killings, this is not something that happens a lot in the
Muslim. Certainly NOT any more than it happens in the West. The
difference is that in the West, we put them in jail longer. Another
difference is that in the West, we automatically classify such people
crazy and they may actually end up with a better treatment. In every a
few minutes, in the United States for example, a woman is abused by a
family member-- many times resulting in death. While such numbers are
horrific, people forget that there are 300 million people in the US,
just as there are in the Arab world.

Post by Jon
what happened to the Mormons is probably going to happen to the Muslims.

Well, nothing had happened to them. They still continue with their
practices.

Post by Jon
Oh puhleeeaase spare me !!! .. I understood it exactly the way it was
intended .. "talk the way muslims understand it" .. my arse!! The guy
said it was legal to marry a child and have sex with her .. no
misunderstanding there... you're just peeved 'coz, thanks to the
internet, Islamic brutality is now exposed for all to see!

Uhm, not true. As far as I'm concerned, Muslims in the West and on the
internet are partially responsible for the misunderstanding Islam gets
because they put out things different way than they should have. For
example, you hardly find a mosque in America with someone who speaks
good english. And since mosques are separated by cultures/languages,
they feel there is no need to. This is horrible because the JONs out
there wanting to know specific thing can't pick up the phone and call
:(

To be honest, I don't give a rat's ass what is exposed of "Islamic"
brutality. I certainly believe there are brutal Muslims out there. But
not any more than their own other people.

For example, FGM, honor killing, abuse of women, et cetera, are
CULTURAL things carried out by the non-Muslims of such cultures.
Muslims who have no root in those cultures are just as removed from it
as the non-Muslims who are not rooted in those cultures.

Take this for an example, I have a lesbian Arab friend. She is
Christian. A few years ago, she was almost murdered by her people had
not her girlfriend (non-Arab) came to her defense and called the local
police. And my Egyptian friend (Christian) went through FGM.

But then we have the JONs coming and forcing such cultural beliefs on
our throat as "Islamic." Why can't people call a spade? But I guess
folks are just not honest.



Afdhere

[Habshi]

Post by Afdhere Jama
And here I thought Abu Bakr was the one insisting the marriage. And

again, Muhammad did not sleep with the girl until she reached puberty.
You can claim baseless lies and that is just your choice.<

Still immoral . firstly you are not speaking the truth as in
those days puberty happend later at age 14 or so because of poor
nutrition .
Secondly it is immoral to marry a girl at six , as she is too
young to understand what it means . Even if the old man of 50 waits
three or four years he has denied her the choice and ruined her life
when she could have waited and married someone in her own age group .

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by Habshi
Still immoral . firstly you are not speaking the truth as in
those days puberty happend later at age 14 or so because of poor
nutrition .
Secondly it is immoral to marry a girl at six , as she is too
young to understand what it means . Even if the old man of 50 waits
three or four years he has denied her the choice and ruined her life
when she could have waited and married someone in her own age group .

Poor nutrition? Dude, women were having babies earlier than woman
today, as well as giving birth much later than today. For example,
Muhammad's first wife, Khadijah, was giving birth in her late 40s and
early 50s. And his daughter Fatima was giving birth in her 60s.

That said, I'm from a Nomadic people where 'nutrition' as understood
by the West is non-existant. And girls achieve puberty between the
ages of seven and fifeen. And women give birth until in their 50s.
Why? Unlike the developed world, they do not consume much (unnatural)
chemicals. Their daily diet directly comes from nature and animals;
fresh, ripe and safe.

Habash, women are married at the age of two. That doesn't mean the
dude is going to do her until she is ready. And regardless of what age
that is, he has to wait for that time.

As for it being "immoral," according to whom? I have a huge problem
with people deciding what is and isn't immoral for other people's
cultures. People choose what is immoral for them. I find a lot of
things the world civilized nations do pretty much immoral. But who am
I to decide for them?

I personally would never marry anyone under the age of 30 and find it
immoral when people do. But that is just me. For someone else, it
might be much, much earlier.

Also, Aishah would have married Muhammad all on her own even if she
was thirty. No one forced her. Do you have any idea how many women
wanted to 'carry' the seed of Muhammad? Do you how jealous other
people have been of the wives of the prophet? That they had to have
special rights and protection in the Qur'an BECAUSE of such things?




Afdhere

[habshi]

Would you marry your six year old daughter or a sister to a 54
year old man ?. Does she understand what sex is that she gives consent
to , if you say yes then clear Satan has got to you .
Even the Guiness Book of records doesnt have 60 year old women
giving birth .
If so many women wanted to marry the Prophet why did he have
to invent Quranic phrases like' have sex with whoever you want , kick
any out of bed you want. You can screw the slave girls without their
consent or marriage and you can have unlimited number of wives'. Allah
has been reduced by Muslims to a pimp!

[A@A]

Any body beleive in this Hindu trash???Any body beleive in this Hindu
trash??? good work juno..
Hindu EXPOSED online
"Abu-Alwafa" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.73.167.78
Dealing with Hindu Heretics
Do not proceed if you are not accustomed to adult content. The following
information is highly offensive. These verses are to be used ONLY when
Hindus attack you with false, offensive and sex-oriented and unverified
information about Islam, Muslims or the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon
him). Do not unnecessarily hurt anyone with this information. Use it ONLY
when handling bigots. God has said in the Holy Quran that He does not love
transgressors. We are not to be the instigators of violence. Use these as a
weapon only when you are on the defensive and Hindus have crossed the line.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/hindu/hindu_heretics

Forbidden Verses in Hindu Scriptures. Presented by "Hinduism Unveiled
Enterprises" -- A Non-Commercial & Non-Profit Research League. No copyright
on "Hinduism Unveiled Enterprises" material. All of the info on this site
may be freely distributed, reproduced, or printed, for non-profit, in part
or in full, without prior permission.

GUARANTEE: Holy & eternal scriptures in sruti & smrti have been excerpted
and have been checked for authenticity before adding to this site. Regarding
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is not included as it is of questionable religious nature in Hinduism.

Traditional Hindus regard all of their holy scriptures, sruti & smrti, as
eternal, divine revelations and true records of history revealed & inspired
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There is a Sanskrit saying, SATYAMEVA JAYATE, which means TRUTH ALONE
TRIUMPHS.

ATTENTION: All information on this site may be freely distributed,
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permission.

GLOSSARY:
tapas: asceticism; energy of asceticism.
linga: phallus, especially Lord Siva's phallus.
raksasas: ogres; demons; goblins.
apsarases: celestial nymphs; they are usually sent by the gods to seduce
raksasa enemies or powerful ascetics, however often the gods themselves
become seduced by these nymphs.

a.. WHY THE GODS VANISHED
b.. TRUTH VS. UNTRUTH
c.. HOW INFANT LORD KRSNA DESTROYED THE EVIL OGRESS PUTANA
d.. LORD KRSNA SEDUCES THE GOPIS
e.. LORD KRSNA MARRIES 16,000 WIVES & THEN DESTROYS HIS OWN FAMILY TO
DEPOPULATE THE EARTH
f.. LORD KRSNA'S FOOLISH DRUNKEN WIVES ARE READY TO COMMIT INCEST WITH
HIS SON (SAMBA)
g.. WHAT DOES SITA LOOK LIKE?
h.. LORD RAMA ADMITS NOT CARING AT ALL FOR HIS WIFE SITA & SITA WAS
'RAVISHED' BY THE DEMON RAVANA
i.. EXCERPTS FROM RAMAYANA SCHOLARS' & TRANSLATORS' SUMMARIES ON VALMIKI
RAMAYANA
j.. MEAT-EATING LORD RAMA
k.. LORD RAMA'S MOM (& CO-MOMS) HAVE SEX WITH A DEAD HORSE (ASVAMEDHA
SACRIFICE)
l.. LORD RAMA, THE GREAT UPHOLDER OF DHARMA, SLAYS AN INNOCENT SUDRA
m.. LORD RAMA SAYS DO NOT TRUST WOMEN
n.. SITA (& ALL WOMEN) ARE 'FLIGHTY, SHARP-TONGUED, DIVISIVE' &
'PERVERSE'
o.. HINDUISM & CASTE
p.. HINDUISM'S TREATMENT OF OUTCASTES (AVARNA)
q.. CASTE IN THE GITA
r.. SLAVERY (BY CASTE)
s.. LOW-CASTES SHOULD HAVE GARBAGE NAMES
t.. LORD SIVA CONDEMNED FOR ALLOWING A LOW-CASTE (A SUDRA) TO READ VEDAS
u.. HINDU GODS DO NOT COMMUNE WITH LOW-CASTES
v.. LOW-CASTE WIVES ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SERVE THE GUESTS
w.. WOMEN ARE LIKE WHORES BY NATURE
x.. WOMEN PRODUCE SEMEN
y.. AMAZING METHOD OF TURNING 'USED' WOMEN BACK INTO VIRGINS
z.. GENERAL RULE REGARDING 'UNCHASTE WOMEN & OTHER ANIMALS'
aa.. WOMEN, ANIMALS, BARBARIANS, 'FALSEHOODS' ARE NOT TRUSTWORTHY
ab.. MORE ON WOMEN IN HINDUISM
ac.. POLYGAMY/POLYGYNY
ad.. IDOLATRY
ae.. RITUALS, PREGNANCY & BIRTH CONTROL METHODS
af.. MEAT
ag.. BESTIALITY IS NOT THAT BAD OF A CRIME
ah.. SOME 'GREAT SAGES' OF HINDUISM WERE BORN THROUGH BESTIALITY
ai.. HOW THE GREAT SAGE RSYASRNGA WAS BORN
aj.. LORD SIVA & LORD VISNU
ak.. HOW LORD HANUMAN (THE MONKEY-GOD) WAS BORN
al.. HOW LORD GANESA WAS BORN
am.. NIYOGA (HINDU VEDIC TRADITION)
an.. SICK SATI-SEX COMBINATION
ao.. SATI ADVOCATED IN DHARMASASTRA
ap.. ORIGINS OF SATI
aq.. ORIGIN OF HOLY SHIV LINGA
ar.. MORE ON ORIGIN OF HOLY SHIV LINGA
as.. LORD SIVA ENJOYS SLUTS FOR 12 YRS & IS PUNISHED BY SAGES &
CASTRATED
at.. HOPELESS HINDU GODS ARE PUNISHED FOR RAPE
au.. LORD BRAHMA LUSTS SIVA'S WIFE & THOUSANDS OF YOGIS ARE BORN
av.. LORD BRAHMA'S INCEST
aw.. HINDUS CAUTIONED NOT TO FOLLOW INCESTUOUS EXAMPLES OF THEIR GODS
ax.. LORD BRAHMA CREATES AN APSARAS & IS AROUSED
ay.. HINDU GODS LUST OVER A NYMPH
az.. KRTTIKAS & PARVATI SWIM IN LORD SIVA'S SEED
ba.. LORD VISNU THE GREAT WOMANIZER
bb.. LORD SIVA HAS SEX WITH THE DEMON ADI UNTIL HER TO DEATH
bc.. LORD VISNU DESTROYS BHASMASURA
bd.. HINDU GODS RAPE GAUTAMA'S WIFE
be.. LORD SIVA GETS THE OTHER HINDU GODS PREGNANT
bf.. HUNGRY HINDU GODDESSES EAT SIVA'S TESTICLES & SAY 'DELICIOUS'
bg.. DYSFUNCTIONAL FAMILIES OF HINDU GODS
bh.. FOOLISH HINDU GODDESS LAXMI DWELLS IN COW DUNG & URINE
bi.. HINDU CLEANSING RITUAL FOR HAVING DRUNK ALCOHOL
bj.. LORD INDRA THE BEEF-EATER
bk.. LORD INDRA MURDERS HIS OWN FATHER
bl.. LORD INDRA THE RAVENOUS DOG-EATER
bm.. LORD INDRA RAPES GAUTAMA'S WIFE
bn.. INDRANI THE SLUT
bo.. LORD INDRA'S ADULTEROUS & EMPTY-HEADED WIFE
bp.. LORD INDRA SEDUCES GAUTAMA'S WIFE & HAS BALLS FROM A RAM
bq.. ARYAN SAVAGERY & THE VEDIC DARK AGES
br.. HINDUISM'S VIEW OF WORLD'S CREATION (VEDAS -- UPANISADS)
bs.. HINDUISM'S VIEW OF HOW CREATURES WERE CREATED (VEDAS -- UPANISADS)
bt.. HINDUISM'S VIEW OF CREATION (VEDAS -- SATAPATHA BRAHMANA)
bu.. LORD PRAJAPATI BECOMES AN 'EROTIC BOAR' TO CREATE THE EARTH
(VEDAS -- TAITTIRIYA SAMHITA)
bv.. LORD VISNU BECOMES AN 'EROTIC BOAR' TO SAVE THE EARTH FROM DROWNING
bw.. ASVAMEDHA SACRIFICE

[SNIP]

[€ R.L. Measures]

Post by ***@A
Any body beleive in this Hindu trash???Any body beleive in this Hindu
trash??? good work juno..
Hindu EXPOSED online...

€ If Hinduism is trash, how did it get the age of the Universe pretty
much right?

[Never Mind]

Post by € R.L. Measures

Post by ***@A
Any body beleive in this Hindu trash???Any body beleive in this Hindu
trash??? good work juno..
Hindu EXPOSED online...

€ If Hinduism is trash, how did it get the age of the Universe pretty
much right?
--
Rich, AG6K, 805-386-3734

Because no body pay it attention

[Ilan Ramon]

Post by habshi
Would you marry your six year old daughter or a sister to a 54
year old man ?.

How do accept the fact that your god's mother had sex with horse, not just a
horse, dead one?
Is this what they taught you in Hinduism?
Here quoted Verses from Hindu Scriptures:
LORD RAMA'S MOM (& CO-MOMS) HAVE SEX WITH A DEAD HORSE (ASVAMEDHA SACRIFICE)
The Asvamedha yajna was a celebrated sacrifice in which many ancient Hindu
queens & ksatriya women in various provinces had sex with a dead horse, and
Lord Rama's mom (Kausalya) & co-mom's were no exception. Lord Rama's mom
spends a whole night having sex with a dead horse for the purpose of
'righteousness & cleansing of sins':

"The prescribed victims -- snakes, birds, the horse, and aquatic animals --
were bound at the place of immolation; each was dedicated to a specific
divinity as is set forth in the ritual texts. The priests then bound them
all to the posts in the manner set forth in the ritual texts. Three hundred
beasts in addition to Dasaratha's jewel of a horse were bound there to the
sacrificial posts. Kausalya (Rama's mom) walked reverently all around the
horse and then with the greatest joy cut it with three knives. Her mind
unwavering in her desire for righteousness, Kausalya (Rama's mom) passed one
night with the horse. The priests -- the hotr, the adhvaryu, and the
udgatr -- saw to it that the second and the juniormost of the king's wives,
as well as his chief queen, were united with the horse. Then the officiating
priest, who was extremely adept and held his senses in check, removed the
fat of the horse and cooked it in the manner prescribed in the ritual texts.
At the proper time and in accordance with the ritual prescriptions, the lord
of men then sniffed the fragrance of the smoking fat, thereby freeing
himself from sin. Then, acting in unison, the sixteen brahman officiating
priests threw the limbs of the horse into the fire, in accordance with the
ritualinjunctions. In other sacrifices, the oblation is offered upon
branches of the plaksa tree, but in the Horse Sacrifice alone the
apportionment of the victim is made on a bed of reeds. The Horse Sacrifice
is known as the Three-Day Rite; for both the kalpasutra and the brahmanas
refer to the Horse Sacrifice as a rite lasting for three days." -- Ramayana
1:13:24-33.

At the end of this article, there is another excerpt of the Asvamedha
sacrifice from the holy Vedas.

[Habshi]

Post by Ilan Ramon
How do accept the fact that your god's mother had sex with horse, not just a

horse, dead one?<

All ISI lies . There is no such passage in the Ramayana

[€ R.L. Measures]

Post by habshi
Would you marry your six year old daughter or a sister to a 54
year old man ?. Does she understand what sex is that she gives consent
to , if you say yes then clear Satan has got to you .
Even the Guiness Book of records doesnt have 60 year old women
giving birth .
If so many women wanted to marry the Prophet why did he have
to invent Quranic phrases like' have sex with whoever you want , kick
any out of bed you want. You can screw the slave girls without their
consent ...

€ These principles sound like they came from the mouth of a trouser
snake. It's laughable that convicting a Muslim male of adultery requires
four Muslim male eyewitnesses to the actual act of penetration. Also,
women are not allowed to testify at rape trials.

[Afdhere Jama]

Habashi,

I'm not interested in people making up lies about other people's
texts. Where does it say have sex with whomever you want? And where
does it say you can screw slave girls without their consent? And where
does it say you can have unlimited wives? Don't you know that it
discredits you as a human being to say things about holy texts that
are not true?

As for marrying off my daughter to a 54 year old at the age of six, I
certainly wouldn't. But that was an Arabic culture. And still is
Arabic culture. And I certainly won't go around calling it immoral any
more than I would call it paying dowry for my daughter's husband (as
the case in India.) I find both to be repulsive, personally. But that
is just personally.



Afdhere

Post by habshi
Would you marry your six year old daughter or a sister to a 54
year old man ?. Does she understand what sex is that she gives consent
to , if you say yes then clear Satan has got to you .
Even the Guiness Book of records doesnt have 60 year old women
giving birth .
If so many women wanted to marry the Prophet why did he have
to invent Quranic phrases like' have sex with whoever you want , kick
any out of bed you want. You can screw the slave girls without their
consent or marriage and you can have unlimited number of wives'. Allah
has been reduced by Muslims to a pimp!

[Nusrat Rizvi]

Post by Afdhere Jama
Habashi,
I'm not interested in people making up lies about other people's
texts. Where does it say have sex with whomever you want? And where
does it say you can screw slave girls without their consent? And where
does it say you can have unlimited wives? Don't you know that it
discredits you as a human being to say things about holy texts that
are not true?
As for marrying off my daughter to a 54 year old at the age of six, I
certainly wouldn't. But that was an Arabic culture. And still is
Arabic culture. And I certainly won't go around calling it immoral any
more than I would call it paying dowry for my daughter's husband (as
the case in India.) I find both to be repulsive, personally. But that
is just personally.
Afdhere

Mohammed was chosen by God to bring enlightenment to a sinful world. I
find it most laughable to find him indulging in even greater sins and
blaming it on the Arab culture, and evil he was sent there to reform
in the first place.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by habshi
Would you marry your six year old daughter or a sister to a 54
year old man ?. Does she understand what sex is that she gives consent
to , if you say yes then clear Satan has got to you .
Even the Guiness Book of records doesnt have 60 year old women
giving birth .
If so many women wanted to marry the Prophet why did he have
to invent Quranic phrases like' have sex with whoever you want , kick
any out of bed you want. You can screw the slave girls without their
consent or marriage and you can have unlimited number of wives'. Allah
has been reduced by Muslims to a pimp!

[The Department of Defense]

Afdhere is certainly a crackup...He tries to come off as Dude this Dude
that.. defending the indefensible....LMAO..

[Nusrat Rizvi]

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 01:55:06 -0500, "The Department of Defense"

Post by The Department of Defense
Afdhere is certainly a crackup...He tries to come off as Dude this Dude
that.. defending the indefensible....LMAO..

He is a full blown mental case but such is to be expected from his
ilk.

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 01:55:06 -0500, "The Department of Defense"

Post by The Department of Defense
Afdhere is certainly a crackup...He tries to come off as Dude this Dude
that.. defending the indefensible....LMAO..

He is a full blown mental case but such is to be expected from his
ilk.

Oh well, what can I say. Why in the world would I bother with a woman
who doesn't even know her own story and considers the people who
fucked up her people "civilized." Or a person who has no name :)

If I'm such a mental case, Nuzrat, how come I'm correcting you with
your own supposed history? ;-) Or do you think I'm mental case because
I believe in an Almighty God rather than a dead Jew? Give me a
freaking break.



Afdhere

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Mohammed was chosen by God to bring enlightenment to a sinful world. I
find it most laughable to find him indulging in even greater sins and
blaming it on the Arab culture, and evil he was sent there to reform
in the first place.

Again, who says what it is evil? You need to get rid off your Euro
brainwashed crap. The Arabs, in ALL of their "evilness," were letting
women do things European women could not do until the 20th century.
For example, Khadijah was an owner of a business when Muhammad married
her before Islam.

Around the same time, women in Europe were put on the stake for having
their own business.... even amongst women.

If people expected God to come one night and change 100% of the Arabs'
culture, they have another one coming. I'm surprised God was able to
change how much he has changed in the Arab world.

So, Nuzrat, spare me the European morality.




Afdhere

[none]

Post by Afdhere Jama
The Arabs, in ALL of their "evilness," were letting
women do things European women could not do until the 20th century.

Your holy prophet's repeated fuckings of 9 year old girls doesn't count, terrorist.




***** Oderint dum metuant! *****

[€ R.L. Measures]

Post by none

Post by Afdhere Jama
The Arabs, in ALL of their "evilness," were letting
women do things European women could not do until the 20th century.

Your holy prophet's repeated fuckings of 9 year old girls doesn't count, terrorist.

*** Aisha was apparently copulated when she was all of 8.

[Phaedrine Stonebridge]

Post by none

Post by none

Post by Afdhere Jama
The Arabs, in ALL of their "evilness," were letting
women do things European women could not do until the 20th century.

Your holy prophet's repeated fuckings of 9 year old girls doesn't count,

terrorist.
*** Aisha was apparently copulated when she was all of 8.

Yes don't forget that muslim calendar, None.

[€ R.L. Measures]

In article

Post by Phaedrine Stonebridge

Post by none

Post by none

Post by Afdhere Jama
The Arabs, in ALL of their "evilness," were letting
women do things European women could not do until the 20th century.

Your holy prophet's repeated fuckings of 9 year old girls doesn't count,

terrorist.
*** Aisha was apparently copulated when she was all of 8.

Yes don't forget that muslim calendar, None.

€ indeed

[M. Ranjit Mathews]

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Mohammed was chosen by God to bring enlightenment to a sinful world. I
find it most laughable to find him indulging in even greater sins and
blaming it on the Arab culture, and evil he was sent there to reform
in the first place.

Again, who says what it is evil? You need to get rid off your Euro
brainwashed crap. The Arabs, in ALL of their "evilness," were letting
women do things European women could not do until the 20th century.
For example, Khadijah was an owner of a business when Muhammad married
her before Islam.

This would indicate that pagan Arabs were letting women do things that
Muslim Arabs don't let women do. European pagans too let women do things
that European women couldn't do till recent centuries. Consider Hypatia,
the female philosopher- mathematician of Alexandria.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Around the same time, women in Europe were put on the stake for having
their own business.... even amongst women.

Haven't heard of a case of a woman on the stake for this reason.

Post by Afdhere Jama
If people expected God to come one night and change 100% of the Arabs'
culture, they have another one coming. I'm surprised God was able to
change how much he has changed in the Arab world.

Even Khadijah would have been surprised if she had been told that in the
future, Arab women would have to wear tents, wouldn't be free to operate
businesses and wouldn't be free to marry their slaves.

Post by Afdhere Jama
So, Nuzrat, spare me the European morality.
Afdhere

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by M. Ranjit Mathews
This would indicate that pagan Arabs were letting women do things that
Muslim Arabs don't let women do. European pagans too let women do things
that European women couldn't do till recent centuries. Consider Hypatia,
the female philosopher- mathematician of Alexandria.

See my message to Habshi. Interesting, because Aisha did far more
things than Hypatia was allowed to do :) For example, Islam's second
holiest book; the Hadith, Aisha is the 2nd most narrator of the book.
Compare this with any other religion, mind you.

If ever the people disagreed on anything, they went to Aisha... NOT
any khalif in her lifetime. She has also been the teacher of such
great scholars of Islam like Urwah and Umrah bint Abdurrahman, both
some of the leading Hadithi narrators.

She led wars, and prevented men from going to wars. As she is
nicknamed Aishah el Saddiqi, or Aishah the Truth teller, she has
remained to be respected for all time. Hence proving everything
Muhammad said about her long before he married her.

And lets not even get into women after her.

Post by M. Ranjit Mathews

Post by Afdhere Jama
Around the same time, women in Europe were put on the stake for having
their own business.... even amongst women.

Haven't heard of a case of a woman on the stake for this reason.

Have you ever read the book "Malevolent Nature"? Also, read "Rewriting
the Renaissance: The Discourses of Sexual Difference in Early Modern
Europe"(Chicago, 1986)

When women run businesses they weren't supposed to run, they were
accused of being witches and Jews.

Post by M. Ranjit Mathews
Even Khadijah would have been surprised if she had been told that in the
future, Arab women would have to wear tents, wouldn't be free to operate
businesses and wouldn't be free to marry their slaves.

All three are false. Arab women wore their tents long before Islam.
The difference is that Islam restricted in front of whom they could
take it off :) Arab women are fre to operate their businesses. In
fact, my own aunt owns a huge, five star hotels in Dubai (UAE) and
Doha (QATAR). And one of the most beautiful business landmark in the
whole world is owned by none other han an Arab woman.

As for slaves, refer to this verse;

[24.32] And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit
among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy,
Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is
Ample-giving, Knowing.


So spare me the lies.



Afdhere

[none]

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
she is
nicknamed Aishah el Saddiqi, or Aishah the Truth teller, she has
remained to be respected for all time. Hence proving everything
Muhammad said about her long before he married her.

So, you approve of the 8 year old being fucked?



***** Oderint dum metuant! *****

[habshi]

Post by Afdhere Jama
If people expected God to come one night and change 100% of the Arabs'

culture, they have another one coming. I'm surprised God was able to
change how much he has changed in the Arab world<

No culture in history even Arab culture finds it acceptable to
exploit chidren for sex . Its a no no like incest . That is why all
cultures punish it heavily .

[Habshi]

Post by Afdhere Jama
Where does it say have sex with whomever you want? And where

does it say you can screw slave girls without their consent? And where
does it say you can have unlimited wives? Don't you know that it
discredits you as a human being to say things about holy texts that
are not true?<

obviously you havent even bothered to read the Quran

33/50 P allowed wives, slave girls as booty, first cousins,any other
woman
*33/51 may put off any wives he pleases and take to bed any of them
you please , even those temporarily set aside !!

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by Habshi
obviously you havent even bothered to read the Quran
33/50 P allowed wives, slave girls as booty, first cousins,any other
woman
*33/51 may put off any wives he pleases and take to bed any of them
you please , even those temporarily set aside !!

Interesting. Well, let me produce the verses you mentioned and one
more to the audience;


***************

[33.50] O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom
you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses
out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the
daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal
aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of
your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she
gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her--
specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We
have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their
right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and
Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[33.51] You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to
you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had
separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most
proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and
that they should be pleased, all of them with what you give them, and
Allah knows what is in your hearts; and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.

[33.52] It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that
you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be
pleasing to you, except what your right hand possesses and Allah is
Watchful over all things.

[Qur'an, Sura 33 - Al Ahzaab, Shakir Translation]

********************

So you think he can pick and choose? That he should say, "hey, I want
Aisha tonight... and damned be Zainab" even though Aisha's beauty
might be enticing? Ah... and I don't read the Qur'an :(

Temporarily set aside? What the? :o That is referring to when a couple
decide to divorce and Islam imposses four months on them before they
do divorce. In case they change their minds ;-) You know, "cool
off...." :-D But they can get back together anytime during that time
and it is with any human heart's blessing.



Afdhere

[habshi]

On 14 Oct 2003 07:22:55 -0700, ***@yahoo.com (Afdhere Jama)
wrote:
***************

[33.50] O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom
you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses
ie slave women who he doesnt have to marry
Explain why he had 13 wives at a time , when Muslims are forbidden
more than 4. One rule for the Prophet , another for Muslims and a
third for Kaffirs . What a moron Allah is , not fit to be a magistrate
, never mind the ultimate Judige !!

[habshi]

Arab women eg Khadija were owning businesses , marrying their
choice , before the Prophet ended their freedoms

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by habshi
Arab women eg Khadija were owning businesses , marrying their
choice , before the Prophet ended their freedoms

Actually, no. Arab women were getting burried at birth.

Arab women might have been a little better than the West but they were
still pretty much evil. Also, pre-Islamic Arabia, a man had to run for
her business. After Islam, a woman no longer needed a man to run her
business. For example, when Muhammad became a prophet, one of the very
first things that happened was that Khadijjah was allowed to run her
business... without hiring a man to run it for her as was the custom.

This opened the doors for such Muslim women like Umm Ja'far, who run
her own business from Mecca to Baghdad, to run multi-national
businesses. And baby this was happening in the 8th century. Try that
in Europe -- say -- even in the 16th century :)


Afdhere

[Nusrat Rizvi]

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by habshi
Arab women eg Khadija were owning businesses , marrying their
choice , before the Prophet ended their freedoms

Actually, no. Arab women were getting burried at birth.

Only a Muslim would believe such absurdity.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Arab women might have been a little better than the West but they were
still pretty much evil. Also, pre-Islamic Arabia, a man had to run for
her business. After Islam, a woman no longer needed a man to run her
business. For example, when Muhammad became a prophet, one of the very
first things that happened was that Khadijjah was allowed to run her
business... without hiring a man to run it for her as was the custom.

We have a perfect example of Khatidja as in independent and a free
willed woman yet this imbecile keep repeating the same Islamic
bullshit which is a white lie as the evidence clearly shows.

Post by Afdhere Jama
This opened the doors for such Muslim women like Umm Ja'far, who run
her own business from Mecca to Baghdad, to run multi-national
businesses. And baby this was happening in the 8th century. Try that
in Europe -- say -- even in the 16th century :)
Afdhere

Then there was famous poetess who was ordered slain by Mohammed
since she has made it her business to mock Mohammed's every move in
her highly appealing and popular poetry.

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Only a Muslim would believe such absurdity.

Well, it is happening in India and China today:

http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html

And Arabs were worser than both.

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
We have a perfect example of Khatidja as in independent and a free
willed woman yet this imbecile keep repeating the same Islamic
bullshit which is a white lie as the evidence clearly shows.

Read history. But that said, how the heck do you know about Khadija?
Only Muslims have brought it to you. So, zip! ;-)

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Then there was famous poetess who was ordered slain by Mohammed
since she has made it her business to mock Mohammed's every move in
her highly appealing and popular poetry.

Who? When? Where? :)



Afdhere

[Habshi]

On 15 Oct 2003 11:36:13 -0700, ***@yahoo.com (Afdhere Jama)
wrote:


Actually, no. Arab women were getting burried at birth.

Typical Islamic lies . Khadija was a rich woman who owned her
own business and employed the illiterate Mohammed to look after the
camels . She then married him and left him her wealth .

It was the Prophet who repayed this kindness by making up
Quranic verse 4.34 women are inferior and to be whipped if they speak
up .

[Afdhere Jama]

***@anony.com (Habshi) wrote in message news:<***@news.clara.net>...


Okay. I'm done talking to this Habshi. I'm not in the business of
talking to people who mistranslate the texts of people, any people.


Enjoy your misery :-)



Afdhere

Post by Afdhere Jama
Actually, no. Arab women were getting burried at birth.
Typical Islamic lies . Khadija was a rich woman who owned her
own business and employed the illiterate Mohammed to look after the
camels . She then married him and left him her wealth .
It was the Prophet who repayed this kindness by making up
Quranic verse 4.34 women are inferior and to be whipped if they speak
up .

[unknown]

Post by Afdhere Jama
Okay. I'm done talking to this Habshi. I'm not in the business of
talking to people who mistranslate the texts of people, any people.

€ his translation of 4:34 is seemingly correct. Perhaps this is yet
another Satanic verse?

Post by Afdhere Jama
Enjoy your misery :-)
Afdhere

Post by Afdhere Jama
Actually, no. Arab women were getting burried at birth.
Typical Islamic lies . Khadija was a rich woman who owned her
own business and employed the illiterate Mohammed to look after the
camels . She then married him and left him her wealth .
It was the Prophet who repayed this kindness by making up
Quranic verse 4.34 women are inferior and to be whipped if they speak
up .

[€ R.L. Measures]

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by habshi
Arab women eg Khadija were owning businesses , marrying their
choice , before the Prophet ended their freedoms

Actually, no. Arab women were getting burried at birth.
Arab women might have been a little better than the West but they were
still pretty much evil. Also, pre-Islamic Arabia, a man had to run for
her business. After Islam, a woman no longer needed a man to run her
business. For example, when Muhammad became a prophet, one of the very
first things that happened was that Khadijjah was allowed to run her
business... without hiring a man to run it for her as was the custom.
This opened the doors for such Muslim women like Umm Ja'far, who run
her own business from Mecca to Baghdad, to run multi-national
businesses. And baby this was happening in the 8th century. Try that
in Europe -- say -- even in the 16th century :)

€ And how were women treated by the Taliban Muslims in Afghanistan?

[Afdhere Jama]

? And how were women treated by the Taliban Muslims in Afghanistan?

The Taliban were nothing but SOB terrorists brought, trained and aided
by the west. Nobody gives a heck :)



Afdhere

[Al Nakba]

Islam delenda east..

Post by Afdhere Jama

? And how were women treated by the Taliban Muslims in Afghanistan?

The Taliban were nothing but SOB terrorists brought, trained and aided
by the west. Nobody gives a heck :)
Afdhere

[Habshi]

On 14 Oct 2003 07:22:55 -0700, ***@yahoo.com (Afdhere Jama)
wrote:
.

[33.51] You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to
bed whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had
separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you;

If this is not Allah being a pimp , what is ?

[Habshi]

Post by Afdhere Jama
As for marrying off my daughter to a 54 year old at the age of six, I

certainly wouldn't.

It was NOT Arab culture and that is why the Meccans drove him
out . Not for preaching one only God stuff ,.the Jews did that and
were not harrassed untilt the Muslims drove them out after beheading
700 .
Show me one other example of any King marrying a six year old
child . Is it fair to her ? to force her into relationships when she
doesnt know what it means ?

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by Habshi
It was NOT Arab culture and that is why the Meccans drove him
out . Not for preaching one only God stuff ,.the Jews did that and
were not harrassed untilt the Muslims drove them out after beheading
700 .
Show me one other example of any King marrying a six year old
child . Is it fair to her ? to force her into relationships when she
doesnt know what it means ?

What a punch of crap. When did the Jews preach that the Ka'bah should
be cleaned and that the damned 365 gods should be put to death? LOL.

As for the '700' Jews, actually it was a Jew who called for their
death. That said, the damned tribe sided with wicked Arabs against
their OWN other Jewish tribes. In David's time, he sent such people to
the Assyrians who toasted them for fun. SO, give me a break.

Habshi, I don't think you know Arabs. Did you know that Arabs were
burrying their daughters in multitudes when Muhammad was going around
with his one god beliefs? Do you know that Arabs are still killing
their daughters if they marry men they do not want them to marry...
even in the West? OH... and I'm not talking about Muslim Arabs. And me
thinks it is a far cry from giving your daughter to an old guy lol.



Afdhere

[Ajanta]

Post by Afdhere Jama
As for marrying off my daughter to a 54 year old at the age of six, I
certainly wouldn't. But that was an Arabic culture...

Shameful. It is just this kind of hypocrisy that has come to
characterize Islamic societies everywhere. You won't do it to your
daughter but you wont criticize it if it happens to another's daughter,
just because Arabs or the Prophet are involved?

I am sure you also believe that Islam is all about peaceful
co-existence with non-Muslims and Muslim women are freer and have more
rights than do other women.

A.

[€ R.L. Measures]

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Habshi
Still immoral . firstly you are not speaking the truth as in
those days puberty happend later at age 14 or so because of poor
nutrition .
Secondly it is immoral to marry a girl at six , as she is too
young to understand what it means . Even if the old man of 50 waits
three or four years he has denied her the choice and ruined her life
when she could have waited and married someone in her own age group .

Poor nutrition? Dude, women were having babies earlier than woman
today, as well as giving birth much later than today. For example,
Muhammad's first wife, Khadijah, was giving birth in her late 40s and
early 50s. And his daughter Fatima was giving birth in her 60s.
That said, I'm from a Nomadic people where 'nutrition' as understood
by the West is non-existant. And girls achieve puberty between the
ages of seven and fifeen. And women give birth until in their 50s.
Why? Unlike the developed world, they do not consume much (unnatural)
chemicals. Their daily diet directly comes from nature and animals;
fresh, ripe and safe.
Habash, women are married at the age of two. That doesn't mean the
dude is going to do her until she is ready. And regardless of what age
that is, he has to wait for that time.
As for it being "immoral," according to whom? I have a huge problem
with people deciding what is and isn't immoral for other people's
cultures. People choose what is immoral for them. I find a lot of
things the world civilized nations do pretty much immoral. But who am
I to decide for them?

*** So if a culture decides to copulate girls in kindergarten, it's ok?"

[Jon]

Post by Afdhere Jama
It is virtually impossible to tell folks anything when they are
completely oppossed to the truth. Lets see...

You snipped my example I gave from the "ask imam" website and then
proceeded to claim I was talking about Mohammed instead of the example
.. now THAT'S dishonesty.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Jon
Like I said .. there are NUMEROUS similar rulings by other Imams.

Like who, pray tell? I'm all ears.

The ruling I referred to was the legality of an older man marrying a 12
year old girl .. the simple fact this is legal in Saudi Arabia and
other Muslim nations such as Iran should be all the evidence required
here.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Jon
Abu Bakr objected to the marriage only conceding when Mohammed insisted
it was"Allah's will"... It is very much immoral yet perfectly legal to
have sex with the girl even if she's pre-pubescent .. the example I
gave illustrates this point precisely.

And here I thought Abu Bakr was the one insisting the marriage.

*sigh* .. guess I have to teach you something about your own religion.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18:
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said
"But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in
Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to
marry."

Abu protests, saying "But I am your brother" .. Mohammed says "too bad,
I want your daughter!"

Post by Afdhere Jama
And again, Muhammad did not sleep with the girl until she reached puberty.
You can claim baseless lies and that is just your choice.

1) I didn't say anything about Mohammed I was referring to the example
I gave which you snipped... it is YOU who is giving us baseless lies ..
here's the relevant part of that ruling again...

<http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6737>
"According to the Shari¹ah, if a girl is a minor (did not attain
puberty), she may be given in marriage by her father. When she attains
puberty, she has the right to maintain the marriage or discontinue the
marriage. There is no age limit to be intimate with one's wife even if
she is a minor."

Just in case you missed that last sentence -
"There is no age limit to be intimate with one's wife *even if she is a
minor.*"

Now it's your turn .. show me an Islamic ruling from a bona fide Imam
or Mufti contradicting the ruling I have shown you.

2) How the hell do you know she had reached puberty at 9 years of
age?.. personally I seriously doubt it and it's a moot point anyway
since 9 is still waaaaayyy to young for a 52 year old.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Jon
By the time she reaches puberty she's so submissive there's no way in
hell she's going to try ending the marriage .. the trouble with Muslim
attitude toward women is they think conceding skimpy technical "rights"
to women is enough when in reality it's very rare and difficult for
these "rights" to be realised.

Not true. First of, I don't know where people get this idea that
Muslim women are subsmissive.

Probably got something to with the all those images of women and girls
being beaten by the religous police in the streets of .. just about
every Arab nation I can think of .. Afghanistan, Pakistan et al.

Possibly got something to do with the fact that women are not even
allowed to DRIVE in Saudi Arabia ..

Might have something to do with articles like this -
<http://www.themuslimwoman.com/herrole/attributesofrighteouswife.htm>

or this (guidance for a muslim wife) -
<http://www.alinaam.org.za/library/gmwife.htm>

Post by Afdhere Jama
Muslim girls have always been raised to
be independent.

Right sure .. independent as in can't work, drive or leave the house
without hubbies permission... must be covered head to toe and cannot
speak or socialise with non-mahram.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Long before Feminism, Muslim women were religious
leaders to other Muslim women.

You mean one wife can lead the other three?

Post by Afdhere Jama
In the Hadith, we see women going to
wars,

Mohammed was indeed known to tow poor little Aisha along to his battles
to keep him warm at night.

Post by Afdhere Jama
divorcing their husbands, marrying their slaves, et cetera.

Give me one example of a Muslim woman marrying her slave.

Post by Afdhere Jama
In fact, it is rare and difficult to actually find a submissive Muslim
woman. I think this is why non-Muslim men find themselves in mayhem
when they marry Muslim women. ;-) No, no, sir... try another sister
hehe.

It's quite clear you don't have the first clue what you're talking
about .. Muslim women are not permitted to marry non muslim men ..
Muslim men, on the other hand, are perfectly ok to marry Christian and
Jewish women.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Jon
In Pakistan and most Arab nations this would usually result in the
death of the girl .. hell man, we're even seeing honour killings in the
west now!!

In Arab society, it is shameful for a woman to refuse a marriage
because it "dishonors" that man's reputation. In Pakistan, it is only
true for the Wahabbi-WANNA BEs.

Oh God don't tell me you're Shi'ite?

Post by Afdhere Jama
As for honor killings, this is not something that happens a lot in the
Muslim. Certainly NOT any more than it happens in the West.

Huh??!??!?! .. dude ... plain and simple .. YOU ARE A LIAR.

Honor killings in the west are only found among Muslim immigrants..
honor killings in Pakistan and just about every Arab nation are totally
out of control .. Jordan even has a law on its books allowing reduced
sentences for men convicted of killing a female relative if they claim
it was in defense of honor... murderers in Jordan get only 3 months on
average... victims who survive are locked up longer than their
attackers for their own protection.

Egypt repealed a law in 2002 that let a rapist completely off the hook
if he agreed to marry his victim .. this law was designed to save the
girl from being killed by her family in an honor killing.

Post by Afdhere Jama
The difference is that in the West, we put them in jail longer. Another
difference is that in the West, we automatically classify such people
crazy and they may actually end up with a better treatment.

Man you are in serious denial . I think it's you who needs treatment.

Post by Afdhere Jama
In every a few minutes, in the United States for example, a woman is abused by a
family member-- many times resulting in death.

Domestic violence in the west is no comparison to honor killings in the
Muslim world.. honor killings are not even viewed by those societies as
being a crime.

Post by Afdhere Jama
While such numbers are horrific, people forget that there are 300 million people in the US,
just as there are in the Arab world.

That sentence doesn't make sense .. take another shot at it.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Jon
what happened to the Mormons is probably going to happen to the Muslims.

Well, nothing had happened to them. They still continue with their
practices.

Learn some history .. the Mormons were practically at war with the
federal government in the 19th century .. federal laws were passed
banning polygamy etc ... The Mormon Church you see today is the
"reigned in" version.
<http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/us/A0861733.html>

Eventually either Islam or the developed world will have to change ..
my money's on Islam changing first.

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Jon
Oh puhleeeaase spare me !!! .. I understood it exactly the way it was
intended .. "talk the way muslims understand it" .. my arse!! The guy
said it was legal to marry a child and have sex with her .. no
misunderstanding there... you're just peeved 'coz, thanks to the
internet, Islamic brutality is now exposed for all to see!

Uhm, not true. As far as I'm concerned, Muslims in the West and on the
internet are partially responsible for the misunderstanding Islam gets
because they put out things different way than they should have. For
example, you hardly find a mosque in America with someone who speaks
good english. And since mosques are separated by cultures/languages,
they feel there is no need to. This is horrible because the JONs out
there wanting to know specific thing can't pick up the phone and call
:(

I want to know if it is legal to marry a child in Islam .. I found out
it is .. it is also legal to "have intimate relations" with her .. if
you have a ruling that contradicts this then show it to us.

Post by Afdhere Jama
To be honest, I don't give a rat's ass what is exposed of "Islamic"
brutality. I certainly believe there are brutal Muslims out there. But
not any more than their own other people.

I'm not referring to a "few Muslims" .. I'm referring to Islamic law..
Shar'iah .. the opinions of Islam leaders, Muftis and Imams .. the
references I'm showing to you are not from some amateur Muslim down the
street, they are rulings, statements and articles from respected Muftis
and Imams.

Post by Afdhere Jama
For example, FGM, honor killing, abuse of women, et cetera, are
CULTURAL things carried out by the non-Muslims of such cultures.

Here are two seperate rulings from two different Muftis saying female
circumcision is preferrable and commendable -

<http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=3139
7>
<http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=5229>

Yes FGM is very cultural, mainly north Africa and the Arab nations.. in
other words all the places we find Islam to be the dominant religion..
yes FGM existed before Islam came along, but rather than oppose FGM or
try to improve the lot of women, Islam simply perpetuated this
disgusting practise... and still does to this day.

Post by Afdhere Jama
Muslims who have no root in those cultures are just as removed from it
as the non-Muslims who are not rooted in those cultures.

gee no kidding?

Post by Afdhere Jama
Take this for an example, I have a lesbian Arab friend. She is
Christian.

Most Christians would probably dispute that, but anyway...

Post by Afdhere Jama
A few years ago, she was almost murdered by her people had
not her girlfriend (non-Arab) came to her defense and called the local
police. And my Egyptian friend (Christian) went through FGM.
But then we have the JONs coming and forcing such cultural beliefs on
our throat as "Islamic." Why can't people call a spade? But I guess
folks are just not honest.

Where did I say it FGM was "Islamic" .. you are responding to a post
where FGM was not even mentioned let alone described as "Islamic".

Either you are incredibly ignorant or outright deceitful .. I think
it's time for you to start showing us some references, so far it's been
me doing all the work here.

[Romanise]

Post by Jon
Either you are incredibly ignorant or outright deceitful .. I think
it's time for you to start showing us some references, so far it's been
me doing all the work here.

This reminds me of another defender of Islam (and Pakistan), namely,
Zafar Khan <***@alumni.caltech.edu>

When unable to put forward any face saving material the fellow started
to threaten the messenger by name calling and possible law suits of
news agencies for quoting material that listed crimes of Pakistani
military government against its own people and its neighbours.

[Afdhere Jama]

Post by Jon
You snipped my example I gave from the "ask imam" website and then
proceeded to claim I was talking about Mohammed instead of the example
.. now THAT'S dishonesty.

You completely lost me here. What are you talking about? I thought
every damned person was talking about Muhammad LOL.

Post by Jon
The ruling I referred to was the legality of an older man marrying a 12
year old girl .. the simple fact this is legal in Saudi Arabia and
other Muslim nations such as Iran should be all the evidence required
here.

HA! Interesting. It was legal in Utah until 2001. So? It is legal in
many NON-Muslim countries. So? That said, most Muslim countries do not
allow that... even though Muslims (and non-Muslims) do it. Uhm, so?

Post by Jon
*sigh* .. guess I have to teach you something about your own religion.
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said
"But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in
Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to
marry."
Abu protests, saying "But I am your brother" .. Mohammed says "too bad,
I want your daughter!"

That was a protest? WOW. And here I thought the dude was referring to
the two being close friends... unless of course you thought they were
actually brothers lol.

When he gave her into marriage, Abu Bakr wanted Muhammad to marry
Aisha as soon as she reached puberty (7 years old.) And Muhammad kept
putting it off until ... he was like "ALRIGHT... already!" lol

Post by Jon
1) I didn't say anything about Mohammed I was referring to the example
I gave which you snipped... it is YOU who is giving us baseless lies ..
here's the relevant part of that ruling again...
<http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6737>
"According to the Shari¹ah, if a girl is a minor (did not attain
puberty), she may be given in marriage by her father. When she attains
puberty, she has the right to maintain the marriage or discontinue the
marriage. There is no age limit to be intimate with one's wife even if
she is a minor."
Just in case you missed that last sentence -
"There is no age limit to be intimate with one's wife *even if she is a
minor.*"

The minor mentioned in the last -- as I TOLD YOU BEFORE -- refers to
those in the West who live in certain regions where the 18-age thingy
is imposed. God, what are you ... a child? :(

Post by Jon
Now it's your turn .. show me an Islamic ruling from a bona fide Imam
or Mufti contradicting the ruling I have shown you.

Oh, LORD... here we go. Don't you have a mosque near you or something?
lol.

Here gives a Mufti on the issue;

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/english/Display.asp?hFatwaID=7656

In fact, such Mufti requires maturity beyond puberty :)

Post by Jon
2) How the hell do you know she had reached puberty at 9 years of
age?.. personally I seriously doubt it and it's a moot point anyway
since 9 is still waaaaayyy to young for a 52 year old.

Because I read history. Try it sometime :)

Post by Jon

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Jon
By the time she reaches puberty she's so submissive there's no way in
hell she's going to try ending the marriage .. the trouble with Muslim
attitude toward women is they think conceding skimpy technical "rights"
to women is enough when in reality it's very rare and difficult for
these "rights" to be realised.

Not true. First of, I don't know where people get this idea that
Muslim women are subsmissive.

Probably got something to with the all those images of women and girls
being beaten by the religous police in the streets of .. just about
every Arab nation I can think of .. Afghanistan, Pakistan et al.
Possibly got something to do with the fact that women are not even
allowed to DRIVE in Saudi Arabia ..

Unh huh. And probably something to do with the fact that Muslim women
have been presidents, owners of businesses, professors, high in the
governments, leading wars, VOTING, being counted as humans, etc-- LONG
before the rest of the world catched up ;-)

Post by Jon

Post by Afdhere Jama
Muslim girls have always been raised to
be independent.

Right sure .. independent as in can't work, drive or leave the house
without hubbies permission... must be covered head to toe and cannot
speak or socialise with non-mahram.

You are concentrating on extremist countries... supported and put in
power by the "civilized" countries. I'm talking about REAL Muslims...
who are on their own... like TURKEY... and MALAYSIA... and EGYPT...

Post by Jon

Post by Afdhere Jama
Long before Feminism, Muslim women were religious
leaders to other Muslim women.

You mean one wife can lead the other three?

Even horribly extremist state like Saudi, there are women professors,
doctors, imams, et cetera.

Post by Jon

Post by Afdhere Jama
In the Hadith, we see women going to
wars,

Mohammed was indeed known to tow poor little Aisha along to his battles
to keep him warm at night.

No, long after he was six feet under! :)) Actually, none of the
prophet's wives went to war while he was alive :)

Post by Jon

Post by Afdhere Jama
divorcing their husbands, marrying their slaves, et cetera.

Give me one example of a Muslim woman marrying her slave.

[24.32] And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit
among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy,
Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is
Ample-giving, Knowing.


But also, read Abdullah ibn `Azm's "The Women of Islam" (El nissa' ul
Islam)

Post by Jon

Post by Afdhere Jama
In fact, it is rare and difficult to actually find a submissive Muslim
woman. I think this is why non-Muslim men find themselves in mayhem
when they marry Muslim women. ;-) No, no, sir... try another sister
hehe.

It's quite clear you don't have the first clue what you're talking
about .. Muslim women are not permitted to marry non muslim men ..
Muslim men, on the other hand, are perfectly ok to marry Christian and
Jewish women.

I'm talking about non-Muslim men becoming Muslims for the sake of
Muslim women.

Post by Jon

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Jon
In Pakistan and most Arab nations this would usually result in the
death of the girl .. hell man, we're even seeing honour killings in the
west now!!

In Arab society, it is shameful for a woman to refuse a marriage
because it "dishonors" that man's reputation. In Pakistan, it is only
true for the Wahabbi-WANNA BEs.

Oh God don't tell me you're Shi'ite?

Actually, am non-sectarian. Thanks for asking :)


Ok... the rest of message will respond after work. Good day...



Afdhere

[none]

Post by Afdhere Jama
When he gave her into marriage, Abu Bakr wanted Muhammad to marry
Aisha as soon as she reached puberty (7 years old.) And Muhammad kept
putting it off until ... he was like "ALRIGHT... already!" lol

Muhammed was a pedophile. He would be jailed in almost any
country in the world.

Your 'lol' shows how little respect you have for the weakest
among us. Our children.

Despicable.



***** Oderint dum metuant! *****

[Afdhere Jama]

Salam,

Ok... this is the second half :) If ya haven't read the first half,
now would be a good time to read hehe......

Post by Jon
Huh??!??!?! .. dude ... plain and simple .. YOU ARE A LIAR.
Honor killings in the west are only found among Muslim immigrants..
honor killings in Pakistan and just about every Arab nation are totally
out of control .. Jordan even has a law on its books allowing reduced
sentences for men convicted of killing a female relative if they claim
it was in defense of honor... murderers in Jordan get only 3 months on
average... victims who survive are locked up longer than their
attackers for their own protection.

Very interesting. Well, I would invite you to read this articles:

http://dfn.org/_currentevents/_asia/HonorKillings/HonorKillings.html

http://www.soundvision.com/info/misc/honor.asp


Apparently, while worrying about my "lies", you have forgotten to get
rid of your hate for Muslims and look at things for what they are.

The following countries are where 'honor killing' does not happen,
with a majority of Muslim people;

Turkey
Malaysia
Uzbekistan
Bosnia
Somalia
Eriteria
Djabouti
Tanzania
Nigeria

... and many others. Nearly all the aforementioned Muslim nations have
a Muslim population over 80%. So, give me a freaking break, alright?

Post by Jon
Egypt repealed a law in 2002 that let a rapist completely off the hook
if he agreed to marry his victim .. this law was designed to save the
girl from being killed by her family in an honor killing.

HAHAHA ! ROFL... or because no one would marry the woman since she no
longer is virgin and the dude messed her "virginity" up ... by
destroying her "circumcision"(actually, FGM... ) ? Uhm, gimme a break.

Post by Jon

Post by Afdhere Jama
The difference is that in the West, we put them in jail longer. Another
difference is that in the West, we automatically classify such people
crazy and they may actually end up with a better treatment.

Man you are in serious denial . I think it's you who needs treatment.

That is the problem. Okay... here are a few noteworthy cases;

http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/2910/helplinks.html - in USA,
an 8 year old killed by her [Christian] mother and her mother's
boyfriend.

http://www.usajewish.com/scripts/usaj/paper/Article.asp?ArticleID=616
- in Israel, a man feels hurt after a woman didn't return his love and
kills her (some love, eh?)

http://www.normemma.com/areut_frazee02.htm - in Canada, a 12 year old
disabled child was murdered by father and i will let you guess why...


Need I go on? So any of the aforementioned folk are any less nutty
than those in the Arab world or South America or Africa or Asia who
kill their own? Give me a freaking break.

Post by Jon
Domestic violence in the west is no comparison to honor killings in the
Muslim world.. honor killings are not even viewed by those societies as
being a crime.

Unh huh. Well, honor killing is domestic violence. As far as I'm
concerned, it is no more worse or less than the women who are rapped,
murdered and abused by their own families and friends in the west.

Post by Jon
Learn some history .. the Mormons were practically at war with the
federal government in the 19th century .. federal laws were passed
banning polygamy etc ... The Mormon Church you see today is the
"reigned in" version.
<http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/us/A0861733.html>

Uhm, I have been to this city in Utah :) Where everyone has more than
one wife ;-) I was there for a week-- and I swear on the Holy name of
the God who created my soul, EVERY God damned last one of them was
polygamist. So, give me a break, alright? 19th century? Uhm, blacks
were enslaved back then too. Jewish synagogues were burned. So what?
That didn't stop them, did it?

Post by Jon
Eventually either Islam or the developed world will have to change ..
my money's on Islam changing first.

Islam doesn't need to change. There is NOT one damned thing that
Muslims do that non-Muslims don't. So why should Islam change?

Post by Jon
I want to know if it is legal to marry a child in Islam .. I found out
it is .. it is also legal to "have intimate relations" with her .. if
you have a ruling that contradicts this then show it to us.

I think I supplied something like that in the first half... but just
in case, here are other ones:

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=27305&dgn=4 -
here, a fatwa is given based on early Muslim writings that a girl who
reached puberty or the age of nine, whichever comes first, cannot be
married without her permission. Hence, her father can marry her all he
wants until she is at that age... but the marriage is neither consumed
nor legal until she reaches that age and decides "yes" or "no." And
according to one Hadith, if she is silent-- it is supposed to be "a
yes" :)

link: http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=3070
- a Muslim scholar woman answers the "age" question.

Post by Jon
I'm not referring to a "few Muslims" .. I'm referring to Islamic law..
Shar'iah .. the opinions of Islam leaders, Muftis and Imams .. the
references I'm showing to you are not from some amateur Muslim down the
street, they are rulings, statements and articles from respected Muftis
and Imams.

Shari'ah varies from one country to another, and from what sects to
another and from what thought to another. For example, all four
schools of Sunnism disagree on stuff like marriage. So why box them
all?

Post by Jon
Here are two seperate rulings from two different Muftis saying female
circumcision is preferrable and commendable -
<http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=3139
7>
<http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=5229>
Yes FGM is very cultural, mainly north Africa and the Arab nations.. in
other words all the places we find Islam to be the dominant religion..
yes FGM existed before Islam came along, but rather than oppose FGM or
try to improve the lot of women, Islam simply perpetuated this
disgusting practise... and still does to this day.

First of, the Islam online link didn't work. On the second link, you
sure love extremists don't you :) The Hadith the dude referred to is
actually da'eef/week hadith. Sad that your cutey imam doesn't tell you
that. Here are a few links on FGM:

http://www.jannah.org/genderequity/equityappendix.html

http://www.minaret.org/fgm-pamphlet.htm

The Arab nations? LOL. Actually, Islam's "central" point (Saudi
Arabia) it is rare. The places where it 90% of it happens is
Africa.... and nearly 60% of those are non-Muslims. For example, Chad,
Mali, and all of Western Africa, etc -- it is practiced by the
non-Muslims more than the Muslims. Here is a world map of the damned
thing;

http://www.circumstitions.com/Maps.html

Post by Jon

Post by Afdhere Jama
But then we have the JONs coming and forcing such cultural beliefs on
our throat as "Islamic." Why can't people call a spade? But I guess
folks are just not honest.

Where did I say it FGM was "Islamic" .. you are responding to a post
where FGM was not even mentioned let alone described as "Islamic".

Funny. Could I be a prophet? :-P I said that before you said the above
that I just responded to. How did I know? Uhm, hehe, aren't all the
JONs the same? ;-) Please note... it has nothing to do with the name
lol.

Post by Jon
Either you are incredibly ignorant or outright deceitful .. I think
it's time for you to start showing us some references, so far it's been
me doing all the work here.

Or perhaps I'm talking to many goons at the same time? ;-)



Afdhere

[€ R.L. Measures]

Post by Jon

Post by Afdhere Jama
In Islam, it is haram/illegal to marry children. It is perfectly fine
to marry people when they reach puberty. If you find that immoral,
fine, but those are the beliefs and cultures of people.

The following is a question and fatwa ruling from the "ask imam"
website clearly contradicting your statement .. there are many similar
rulings on many other fatwa sites .. unless you regard yourself as
being a superior islamic scholar to the imams and muftis you'd have to
acknowledge you are wrong on this issue.
<http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6737>
-----
Question - "i am 45 and married to already 15 years now after the
sexual desire of my woman has nearly gone i am looking to marry again.
And i would like to marry a woman who is 12 years old, her father and
she has also agreed, my first wife told me that it could make problems
if it will be a big different in age, and also some of my children are
older than my second wife. What is your advise ? And is it allowed for
me to have already sexual intercourse with these woman after we are
married or to i have to wait till she reach at special age ?"
Answer - "According to the Shari'ah, if a girl is a minor (did not
attain puberty), she may be given in marriage by her father. When she
attains puberty, she has the right to maintain the marriage or
discontinue the marriage.
*There is no age limit to be intimate with one's wife even if she is a
minor.*
It is important for you, in your situation, to consider the age
difference reservation expressed by your wife.
and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best
Mufti Ebrahim Desai"
----
So there you have it .. in Islam, not only is legal to marry a
pre-pubescent child, it's also perfectly legal to have sex with her.

€ Allah's prophet Muhammad had sex with Aisha about a month before she
turned 9, so boinking 8-yr olds is apparently just fine with god/Allah.

[€ R.L. Measures]

Post by Afdhere Jama

Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Your defense of a religion started by a sex crazed pervert is fooling
no one. If 1.5 billion followers is the only claim to fame you can
come up with then permit me to point out these diseased masses
not only do not attribute to the advancements of mankind but evidence
clearly shown they are a big drain on our worlds limited resources.

Nusrat, I'm not interested in insulting anyone. That is not who I'm.
I'm not interested in debating people who are not able to grasp the
different cultures of people. But if Muhammad -- who was married to
twelve women throughout his lifetime (not all at the same time) -- was
"sex crazed pervert" -- I wonder what you would have thought of
Solomon or David? Heck, even Hindu gods?

€ Neither Solomon nor King David copulated 8-yr old girls. Can you name
even one Hindu God who gave an 8-yr old the prod?

[Dipendra Sengupta]

Post by Afdhere Jama
Mr. Ghalib,
The Qur'an is the holy text of 1.5 billion Muslims, most of whom are
good people. Also, the Qur'an is read both in Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
The countries are day and night in terms of living today's world. I
don't think the problem is not the Qur'an but the interpretation
thereof.
Afdhere

Koran is the problem. It is a terror manual written by the criminal SOB
Mohammed.

Thanks bud.

Dipu

[€ R.L. Measures]

Post by Dipendra Sengupta

Post by Afdhere Jama
Mr. Ghalib,
The Qur'an is the holy text of 1.5 billion Muslims, most of whom are
good people. Also, the Qur'an is read both in Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
The countries are day and night in terms of living today's world. I
don't think the problem is not the Qur'an but the interpretation
thereof.
Afdhere

Koran is the problem. It is a terror manual written by the criminal SOB
Mohammed.

€ ... a control freak of the first order.

[Vishal]

Post by Afdhere Jama
don't think the problem is not the Qur'an but the interpretation
thereof.

It is the same when it comes to the practical world.
If the whole world think that red is blue then it does not make a difference
what is red and what is blue.