Discussion:
Corbyns Brexit Position
(too old to reply)
Omega
2019-11-02 10:18:19 UTC
Permalink
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?

"The Labour leader has set out a careful position on how he would like
to deal with Brexit in a strategy aimed at not alienating either leave
or remain voters at an election".


... *not alienating either leave or remain voters* ...


Into a General Election Campaign and the dull bugga still sits on the
fence hoping to fuck, the electorate will never notice! Perhaps many
will not?

The more and more I research, 'what is the policy of the Labour Party
regards Remain/Leave [EU]', I discover they don't actually have a
policy. A party without a plan, oh dear!

Is this not what this General Election is about? Do we Leave, do we Stay?

Should not a major UK party be obligated to state one way or the other?
Makes their policies as easy to understand to the people they hope will
vote for them?

Perhaps Corbyn is so charismatic he believes he will win votes on his
very own charm. No, I haven't converted, smarm of course!

omega
Stephen Cole
2019-11-02 11:04:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
--
M0TEY // STC
www.twitter.com/ukradioamateur
The Todal
2019-11-02 11:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Cole
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy
that makes good sense.

Brexit Party - a damaging no-deal Brexit and the hope that we can patch
together a deal after we leave

LibDems - ignore the Leave voters because we know that Remain is the
best policy and if we get into government we'll assume that all our
voters want Remain

Tories - an unsatisfactory Boris deal that many think is rather worse
than Theresa's deal, but possibly the best we can achieve, and the
electorate can like it or lump it because Boris will impose it on the
nation and will assume that the majority want it.
michael adams
2019-11-02 11:34:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy that makes good
sense.
But the whole point, as has become apparent in the last three years, is that
there is no possibility of securing a deal which would both satisfy the xenophopes
and protect UK industry and commerce.
The EU are going to insist on free movement of labour as a necessary component
of our continued membership of the single market and customs union. Without
continued membership of the SM and CU UK industry and services are severely
disadvantaged and will take years to recover if at all.

There simply is no middle way. And so its difficult to see what there is for
Labour to further negotiate over or present as a meaningful alternative to
staying in, in any referendum.

All that has happened since the referendum is a succession of politicians
Davies, Fox, May, and now Johnson all insisting they could get a better
deal than their predeccessors - that failure was down to their incompetence
rather than the EU sticking to its basic principles. And there's no reason to think
that Corbyn or anyone else would fare any better,
Brexit Party - a damaging no-deal Brexit and the hope that we can patch together a deal
after we leave
LibDems - ignore the Leave voters because we know that Remain is the best policy and if
we get into government we'll assume that all our voters want Remain
Tories - an unsatisfactory Boris deal that many think is rather worse than Theresa's
deal, but possibly the best we can achieve, and the electorate can like it or lump it
because Boris will impose it on the nation and will assume that the majority want it.
michael adams

...
The Todal
2019-11-02 11:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy that makes good
sense.
But the whole point, as has become apparent in the last three years, is that
there is no possibility of securing a deal which would both satisfy the xenophopes
and protect UK industry and commerce.
It would be idiotic to promise to get a better deal than Theresa or
Boris have managed to obtain.

Nevertheless, there are many voters who would be willing to see a
recession and job losses and factory closures if that's the price to pay
for getting full control over our borders and lawmaking.

If the people want a deal that has some benefits and some flaws, they
should be given a chance to cast their vote. We'll then see what the
majority want.
michael adams
2019-11-02 12:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy that makes good
sense.
But the whole point, as has become apparent in the last three years, is that
there is no possibility of securing a deal which would both satisfy the xenophopes
and protect UK industry and commerce.
It would be idiotic to promise to get a better deal than Theresa or Boris have managed
to obtain.
Indeed. So why even try ? Corbyn will be on a hiding for nothing
from both sides.

As both remainers and leavers will be able to point out that May
and Johnson secured "better" deals.

The only real evidence that he had made any sort of difference would
be were his deal to be unconditionally endorsed by both Nigel Farage
and Donald Trump. And I somehow doubt he'd welcome that.
Nevertheless, there are many voters who would be willing to see a recession and job
losses and factory closures if that's the price to pay for getting full control over
our borders and lawmaking.
If the people want a deal that has some benefits and some flaws,
they should be given a chance to cast their vote. We'll then see
what the majority want.
He should have held out for a second referendum first, on Johnson's Deal.
As with Swinson its only vanity and an unrealistic view of their chances
that led them to press for a GE in the first place. Basically if Corbyn
wins an outright majority the best he can hope for is offering up a
secondhand deal in a referendum. And if people still vote leave, having
to take full responsibility for the dire consequences for the next
5 years.

Followed by another 20 years in the wilderness.


michael adams

...
Norman Wells
2019-11-02 12:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by michael adams
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy that makes good
sense.
But the whole point, as has become apparent in the last three years, is that
there is no possibility of securing a deal which would both satisfy the xenophopes
and protect UK industry and commerce.
It would be idiotic to promise to get a better deal than Theresa or
Boris have managed to obtain.
Nevertheless, there are many voters who would be willing to see a
recession and job losses and factory closures if that's the price to pay
for getting full control over our borders and lawmaking.
If the people want a deal that has some benefits and some flaws, they
should be given a chance to cast their vote. We'll then see what the
majority want.
Now that Labour has at last stopped prevaricating, that's what's
happening on 12 December, isn't it?
Pamela
2019-11-02 13:57:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by michael adams
Post by The Todal
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to
a referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy
that makes good sense.
But the whole point, as has become apparent in the last three years,
is that there is no possibility of securing a deal which would both
satisfy the xenophopes and protect UK industry and commerce.
It would be idiotic to promise to get a better deal than Theresa or
Boris have managed to obtain.
Nevertheless, there are many voters who would be willing to see a
recession and job losses and factory closures if that's the price to
pay for getting full control over our borders and lawmaking.
If the people want a deal that has some benefits and some flaws, they
should be given a chance to cast their vote. We'll then see what the
majority want.
Now that Labour has at last stopped prevaricating, that's what's
happening on 12 December, isn't it?
It's not prevarication but choosing a time maximise the benefit.
Stephen Cole
2019-11-02 12:25:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy that makes good
sense.
But the whole point, as has become apparent in the last three years, is that
there is no possibility of securing a deal which would both satisfy the xenophopes
and protect UK industry and commerce.
Correct. Which is why the only credible way forward is to put the best
possible deal to a referendum vs Remain.
Post by michael adams
The EU are going to insist on free movement of labour as a necessary component
of our continued membership of the single market and customs union. Without
continued membership of the SM and CU UK industry and services are severely
disadvantaged and will take years to recover if at all.
Labour will negotiate a deal that includes SM and CU membership/access.
Post by michael adams
There simply is no middle way. And so its difficult to see what there is for
Labour to further negotiate over or present as a meaningful alternative to
staying in, in any referendum.
They’ll negotiate the softest of Soft Brexits, Norway+++ or whatever, and
let the electorate decide if they want that or whether it’s sanest to
simply Remain.
Post by michael adams
All that has happened since the referendum is a succession of politicians
Davies, Fox, May, and now Johnson all insisting they could get a better
deal than their predeccessors - that failure was down to their incompetence
rather than the EU sticking to its basic principles. And there's no reason to think
that Corbyn or anyone else would fare any better,
Corbyn’s red lines are very different to the Tory red lines, and will
result in a wholly different deal.
--
M0TEY // STC
www.twitter.com/ukradioamateur
michael adams
2019-11-02 12:48:33 UTC
Permalink
They'll negotiate the softest of Soft Brexits, Norway+++ or whatever, and
let the electorate decide if they want that or whether it's sanest to
simply Remain.
The Norway agreement includes free movement of people. The difference
there is that very few people would want to move to Norway in the first place
so for them it's no big deal. They probably welcome as many people as
they can get.

Aside from all the questions about sovereignty which only ever really concerned
a small minority until the idea was put in people's heads, its the free movement of
people - control of our own borders which has always exercised leave voters.
Whether they are being reasonable in this is neither here nor there.

Basically Labour offering a referendum with two options both offering free movement
of people is simply asking for trouble.

As I said Labour should have backed a referendum on Johnsons Deal backing remain.
If remain won then Johnson would be discredited and possibly there would be more
dirt on this American woman by then. If leave won then Johnson could be left to another
three years of cleaning up his own mess


michael adams

...
abelard
2019-11-02 13:20:24 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:48:33 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
dirt on this American woman by then.
who she?? how did she enter your rant?
where did she come from? where is she going?
when? where?
--
www.abelard.org
Peeler
2019-11-02 18:47:42 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 05:32:27 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
At 17%
You are 100% a trolling senile idiot, senile Rodent!
--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/
Roger Hayter
2019-11-02 12:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by The Todal
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy
that makes good sense.
But the whole point, as has become apparent in the last three years, is
that there is no possibility of securing a deal which would both satisfy
the xenophopes and protect UK industry and commerce. The EU are going to
insist on free movement of labour as a necessary component of our
continued membership of the single market and customs union. Without
continued membership of the SM and CU UK industry and services are
severely disadvantaged and will take years to recover if at all.
There simply is no middle way. And so its difficult to see what there is
for Labour to further negotiate over or present as a meaningful
alternative to staying in, in any referendum.
It depends what you think is better. Labour wants to keep most EU
advantages. Therefore will probably negotiate something like a Norway
deal. This has the advantage that there won't be much to talk about
during the transition period, because we're already there. But we will
have nominally left the EU and have no responsibility for, or control
over, its political direction. We will stil be able to influence
detailed regs, as is Norway. Then we can choose between this and
remaining. Suits everyone except the most extreme and articulate
leavers. It really doesn't matter which vote the Labour Party supports
as the population can make up its own minds.

Personally I'd do a three way vote with a no-deal complete break and
some form of second vote. The conssensus seems to be that this would be
too difficult for the leavers to understand. If so, we could do what
the Americans do with a similarly educationally challenged population
and have what they call a "run-off" vote. I've actually forgetten what
we call a second vote in these circumstances.

I don't think the Labour Party will go for the latter solution though,
as I think everyone knows the no deal would be eliminated in the first
round.
Post by michael adams
All that has happened since the referendum is a succession of
politicians Davies, Fox, May, and now Johnson all insisting they could get
a better deal than their predeccessors - that failure was down to their
incompetence rather than the EU sticking to its basic principles. And
there's no reason to think that Corbyn or anyone else would fare any
better,
Post by The Todal
Brexit Party - a damaging no-deal Brexit and the hope that we can patch
together a deal after we leave
LibDems - ignore the Leave voters because we know that Remain is the
best policy and if we get into government we'll assume that all our
voters want Remain
Tories - an unsatisfactory Boris deal that many think is rather worse
than Theresa's deal, but possibly the best we can achieve, and the
electorate can like it or lump it because Boris will impose it on the
nation and will assume that the majority want it.
michael adams
...
--
Roger Hayter
michael adams
2019-11-02 12:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by michael adams
Post by The Todal
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy
that makes good sense.
But the whole point, as has become apparent in the last three years, is
that there is no possibility of securing a deal which would both satisfy
the xenophopes and protect UK industry and commerce. The EU are going to
insist on free movement of labour as a necessary component of our
continued membership of the single market and customs union. Without
continued membership of the SM and CU UK industry and services are
severely disadvantaged and will take years to recover if at all.
There simply is no middle way. And so its difficult to see what there is
for Labour to further negotiate over or present as a meaningful
alternative to staying in, in any referendum.
It depends what you think is better. Labour wants to keep most EU
advantages. Therefore will probably negotiate something like a Norway
deal.
Here's parts of one I posted earlier (with labour substituted for people)

The Norway agreement includes free movement of labour. The difference
there is that very few people would want to move to Norway in the
first place so for them it's no big deal. They probably welcome
as many workers as they can get.

Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway–European_Union_relations

AIUI free movement of labour is among the EU's core principals.


michael adams

...
abelard
2019-11-02 13:22:56 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
--
www.abelard.org
The Natural Philosopher
2019-11-02 13:26:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
10 million.
--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14
abelard
2019-11-02 13:27:49 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:26:33 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
10 million.
so obviously you are against free movement...
but i was asking another poster
--
www.abelard.org
Keema's Nan
2019-11-02 14:01:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
10 million.
As long as they don’t come and live anywhere near you - presumably?
The Natural Philosopher
2019-11-02 14:56:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
10 million.
As long as they don’t come and live anywhere near you - presumably?
They already do
--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx
Keema's Nan
2019-11-02 15:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
10 million.
As long as they don’t come and live anywhere near you - presumably?
They already do
10 million of them, eh?

Must be a bit crowded.
The Natural Philosopher
2019-11-02 19:44:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
10 million.
As long as they don’t come and live anywhere near you - presumably?
They already do
10 million of them, eh?
Must be a bit crowded.
Oh dear. trobule with uneducated plebs agian.
The carrying capacity of the UK is ten million total,. Not extra.
--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.
Keema's Nan
2019-11-02 19:59:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
10 million.
As long as they don’t come and live anywhere near you - presumably?
They already do
10 million of them, eh?
Must be a bit crowded.
Oh dear. trobule with uneducated plebs agian.
I don’t have 10 million people living near me.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
The carrying capacity of the UK is ten million total,.
Try reading my posts before racing to the one-upmanship reply attempts.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Not extra.
Extra what?
The Natural Philosopher
2019-11-02 20:09:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
10 million.
As long as they don’t come and live anywhere near you - presumably?
They already do
10 million of them, eh?
Must be a bit crowded.
Oh dear. trobule with uneducated plebs agian.
I don’t have 10 million people living near me.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
The carrying capacity of the UK is ten million total,.
Try reading my posts before racing to the one-upmanship reply attempts.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Not extra.
Extra what?
Is English not your native language? The carrying capacity of the UK is
about ten million total, sustainably.

You asked: I told you.
--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen
Keema's Nan
2019-11-02 21:48:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
10 million.
As long as they don’t come and live anywhere near you - presumably?
They already do
10 million of them, eh?
Must be a bit crowded.
Oh dear. trobule with uneducated plebs agian.
I don’t have 10 million people living near me.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
The carrying capacity of the UK is ten million total,.
Try reading my posts before racing to the one-upmanship reply attempts.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Not extra.
Extra what?
Is English not your native language? The carrying capacity of the UK is
about ten million total, sustainably.
You asked: I told you.
You told me that 10 million already live near you - which explains the
problems you have.

It must be stressful when you all get stuck in traffic as soon as the sun
shines and everyone heads for the BRINY.
Tim Lamb
2019-11-02 19:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
10 million.
As long as they don’t come and live anywhere near you - presumably?
They already do
No they don't.

I live in the country. Sadly within 15 miles of around 1.5 million
people. Luton, St. Albans, Welwyn/Hatfield, Stevenage, Letchworth. Each
of whom seems to own a dog and expects to be able to park and give it a
run in that nice green field.
--
Tim Lamb
The Natural Philosopher
2019-11-02 20:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Lamb
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
10 million.
 As long as they don’t come and live anywhere near you - presumably?
They already do
No they don't.
Yes they do. withon 60 miles of me 10 million peole live.
Post by Tim Lamb
 I live in the country. Sadly within 15 miles of around 1.5 million
people. Luton, St. Albans, Welwyn/Hatfield, Stevenage, Letchworth. Each
of whom seems to own a dog and expects to be able to park and give it a
run in that nice green field.
The populations of those towns are not 10 million.
Why not move?
--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx
Tim Lamb
2019-11-03 09:11:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Tim Lamb
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
10 million.
 As long as they don’t come and live anywhere near you - presumably?
They already do
No they don't.
Yes they do. withon 60 miles of me 10 million peole live.
Umm.. That is stretching the *near me* a bit:-)
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Tim Lamb
 I live in the country. Sadly within 15 miles of around 1.5
million people. Luton, St. Albans, Welwyn/Hatfield, Stevenage,
Letchworth. Each of whom seems to own a dog and expects to be able to
park and give it a run in that nice green field.
The populations of those towns are not 10 million.
Why not move?
Small farms don't move easily. Anyway, I was born here and my friends
are here so I will continue to block possible parking spots and fence
field edge rights of way. I might consider switching my vote if someone
offers legislation to ban tennis ball throwers!
--
Tim Lamb
Norman Wells
2019-11-03 09:22:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Tim Lamb
Post by The Natural Philosopher
 As long as they don’t come and live anywhere near you - presumably?
They already do
No they don't.
Yes they do. withon 60 miles of me 10 million peole live.
A 60 mile radius of where you live covers 11,304 square miles, or 22.5%
of all of England.

10 million people, however, represent just 17.9% of the population.
Statistically, therefore, you're living in an underpopulated part.
Tim Streater
2019-11-02 15:59:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
About 30 million.
--
"The EU Customs Union is a racket that defends producers in rich countries
against producers in poor countries."

Jacob Rees-Mogg MP
abelard
2019-11-02 16:15:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 15:59:34 +0000, Tim Streater
Post by Tim Streater
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
About 30 million.
thank you for your estimate...mine is 30-40 million
but of course technology keeps extending that

seems the remoaners do not make such estimates yet just want
ever more...none of them engage with this *real world* problem
very strange in my models

i wonder what drives them other than fantasies

'it's all about racism' seems so intellectually bankrupt
(as does it's mirror image of course) :-)
--
www.abelard.org
michael adams
2019-11-02 16:21:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
About 30 million.
A good start might be "saying goodbye" to everyone over the age of 60.

How do you feel about that ?


michael adams

...
Keema's Nan
2019-11-02 19:35:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by Tim Streater
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
About 30 million.
A good start might be "saying goodbye" to everyone over the age of 60.
How do you feel about that ?
It is not very surprising that every shit-stirrer who suggests this policy is
not over 60.

It says a lot about the selfish under-60s.
Roger Hayter
2019-11-02 19:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by michael adams
Post by Tim Streater
Post by abelard
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:59:10 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
what is your estimate of the 'comfortable' carrying capacity
of the uk?
About 30 million.
A good start might be "saying goodbye" to everyone over the age of 60.
How do you feel about that ?
It is not very surprising that every shit-stirrer who suggests this policy is
not over 60.
It says a lot about the selfish under-60s.
I hope he is really opposing dog-in-manger anti-immigration. This
country, given infrastructure improvements could accommodate twice as
many people as now without seriously impinging on agricultural land, let
alone wild areas. And we need fecund young immigrant families from the
third world as well as Europe to teach them how we can become even more
successful together, and, this is the point, to support all us old
people.
--
Roger Hayter
The Natural Philosopher
2019-11-02 19:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
I hope he is really opposing dog-in-manger anti-immigration. This
country, given infrastructure improvements could accommodate twice as
many people as now without seriously impinging on agricultural land, let
alone wild areas.
Sure. Put them all in concentration camps, why not? Arbeit Mak Frei. Let
them never experience the real world. Hell they don't already.
--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson
Roger Hayter
2019-11-02 18:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by michael adams
Post by The Todal
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy
that makes good sense.
But the whole point, as has become apparent in the last three years, is
that there is no possibility of securing a deal which would both satisfy
the xenophopes and protect UK industry and commerce. The EU are going to
insist on free movement of labour as a necessary component of our
continued membership of the single market and customs union. Without
continued membership of the SM and CU UK industry and services are
severely disadvantaged and will take years to recover if at all.
There simply is no middle way. And so its difficult to see what there is
for Labour to further negotiate over or present as a meaningful
alternative to staying in, in any referendum.
It depends what you think is better. Labour wants to keep most EU
advantages. Therefore will probably negotiate something like a Norway
deal.
Here's parts of one I posted earlier (with labour substituted for people)
The Norway agreement includes free movement of labour. The difference
there is that very few people would want to move to Norway in the
first place so for them it's no big deal. They probably welcome
as many workers as they can get.
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NorwayˆEuropean_Union_relations
AIUI free movement of labour is among the EU's core principals.
michael adams
...
It is also one of Labour's core principles, albeit more honoured in
the breach ..
--
Roger Hayter
michael adams
2019-11-02 19:31:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by michael adams
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by michael adams
Post by The Todal
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy
that makes good sense.
But the whole point, as has become apparent in the last three years, is
that there is no possibility of securing a deal which would both satisfy
the xenophopes and protect UK industry and commerce. The EU are going to
insist on free movement of labour as a necessary component of our
continued membership of the single market and customs union. Without
continued membership of the SM and CU UK industry and services are
severely disadvantaged and will take years to recover if at all.
There simply is no middle way. And so its difficult to see what there is
for Labour to further negotiate over or present as a meaningful
alternative to staying in, in any referendum.
It depends what you think is better. Labour wants to keep most EU
advantages. Therefore will probably negotiate something like a Norway
deal.
Here's parts of one I posted earlier (with labour substituted for people)
The Norway agreement includes free movement of labour. The difference
there is that very few people would want to move to Norway in the
first place so for them it's no big deal. They probably welcome
as many workers as they can get.
Basically when the objection is that workers from the EU
are "coming over here, taking our jobs and working for lower
wages" (whether accurate or not) then Labour offering a referendum
with two options both offering free movement of labour is simply
asking for trouble.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway^European_Union_relations
AIUI free movement of labour is among the EU's core principals.
michael adams
...
It is also one of Labour's core principles, albeit more honoured in
the breach ..
Indeed. But I can't see opposition to the CAP and Fisheries policy - which AIUI
is the only real difference between Norway and Full membership having that much traction
with "ordinary voters" - unlike among the small number of diehards. Either ordinary
voters
are in favour of, or at least resigned to free movement of labour, or they're not. And
that
IMO would be the deciding issue.

IOW no matter how many arguments are put forward I find it difficult to see many
"ordinary voters" choosing Norway over Remain on the basis if their hostility
to either the CAP or fisheries policy. The fisherman might have a case but that's
matched by the spectre of bankrupt farmers being unable to pay for winter feed and
being reduced to slaughtering their own livestock and either pile them up in the
fields or burn them.


michael adams

...
Clive Page
2019-11-02 17:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by michael adams
There simply is no middle way. And so its difficult to see what there is for
Labour to further negotiate over or present as a meaningful alternative to
staying in, in any referendum.
I suspect that Corbyn, if he does get the chance, will try to get a better deal by accepting the single market and customs union and therefore freedom of movement, i.e. something like Norway++. We heard quite a bit about that option just after the referendum but it seems have vanished - maybe when Mrs May drew her multiple red lines. That option would get us out of the Common Agricultural Policy and maybe for fisheries as well, but otherwise we'd be semi-members. It would not be my choice, as I'd prefer to stay an EU Citizen, but I suspect many MPs would like it.
--
Clive Page
Tim Streater
2019-11-02 18:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive Page
Post by michael adams
There simply is no middle way. And so its difficult to see what there is for
Labour to further negotiate over or present as a meaningful alternative to
staying in, in any referendum.
I suspect that Corbyn, if he does get the chance, will try to get a better
deal by accepting the single market and customs union and therefore freedom of
movement, i.e. something like Norway++.
And there's plenty of evidence that Norway is rather regretting this,
as are the Swiss, who the EU is attempting to bully into the EEA, and
then into the EU Itself. Iceland saw the same thing coming, and it's
why both they and the Swiss terminated their EU accession talks some
years ago.
--
Lady Astor: "If you were my husband I'd give you poison." Churchill: "If
you were my wife, I'd drink it."
Norman Wells
2019-11-02 12:24:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Stephen Cole
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy
that makes good sense.
Yes, it must be. I wonder then why Emily Thornberry couldn't quite get
the message across on Question Time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=CSa2wvJCIEc
Tim Streater
2019-11-02 12:57:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Stephen Cole
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy
that makes good sense.
Yes, it must be. I wonder then why Emily Thornberry couldn't quite get
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=CSa2wvJCIEc
Ha ha ha. A Labour Deal. And make it a referendum choice with Remain.
Only a looney could come up with that.

Explain why the EU would, in those circs, offer anything other than a
shitty deal. Especially after Labour has been complicit in all attempts
to ruin the UK's negotiating position by removing no-deal as an option.
The only thing that has forced the EU to improve the rubbish deal it
offered Theresa May was the threat of no-deal.

And should we be threatening these cunts? Of course we should - it's
what they've been doing to us these last three years.
--
The truth of the matter is that we Scots have always been more divided amongst
ourselves than pitted against the English. Scottish history before the Union of
Parliaments is a gloomy, violent tale of murders, feuds, and tribal revenge.
Only after the Act of Union did Highlanders and Lowlanders, Picts and Celts,
begin to recognise one another as fellow citizens.

Tam Dalyell
Roger Hayter
2019-11-02 18:55:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Stephen Cole
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy
that makes good sense.
Yes, it must be. I wonder then why Emily Thornberry couldn't quite get
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=CSa2wvJCIEc
Ha ha ha. A Labour Deal. And make it a referendum choice with Remain.
Only a looney could come up with that.
Explain why the EU would, in those circs, offer anything other than a
shitty deal. Especially after Labour has been complicit in all attempts
to ruin the UK's negotiating position by removing no-deal as an option.
The only thing that has forced the EU to improve the rubbish deal it
offered Theresa May was the threat of no-deal.
This is a cosy delusion. There never was any deal available other than
the a transitional arrangement to Norway style or (the same)
transitional arrangement to completey separate. And since the
transitional arrangement had to be in accordance with EU principles
there never was a better transitional arrangement. Which of course
doesn't matter because if completely independent trade deal was desired
it could be negotiated later. As, of course, could any apparently
permanent backstop. It is all, and you won't be surprised by this, a
cynical game. Anyone who really wanted to leave would have accepted the
May deal and got out last March. Enough "infrastucture improvements"
would have sorted the backstop and then the final deal need bave borne
no relation to the transitional deal.
Post by Tim Streater
And should we be threatening these cunts? Of course we should - it's
what they've been doing to us these last three years.
--
Roger Hayter
Rod Speed
2019-11-02 17:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Stephen Cole
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy that
makes good sense.
Yes, it must be. I wonder then why Emily Thornberry couldn't quite get
Because she's one of the complete duds that is actually
stupid enough to be a hard lefty too stupid to notice
that not enough of the voters are into hard left Labour
to get it into government.
Post by Norman Wells
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=CSa2wvJCIEc
Peeler
2019-11-02 18:34:11 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 04:54:49 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Post by Rod Speed
Because she's one of the complete duds that is actually
stupid enough to
Says the complete dud from Australia who is actually stupid enough to get up
EVERY NIGHT between 1 and 4 am, just so he can talk to somebody, as NOBODY
in real life is talking to him!
--
***@down.the.farm about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID: <ps10v9$uo2$***@gioia.aioe.org>
Ian Jackson
2019-11-02 12:42:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Stephen Cole
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy
that makes good sense.
Brexit Party - a damaging no-deal Brexit and the hope that we can patch
together a deal after we leave
LibDems - ignore the Leave voters because we know that Remain is the
best policy and if we get into government we'll assume that all our
voters want Remain
Tories - an unsatisfactory Boris deal that many think is rather worse
than Theresa's deal, but possibly the best we can achieve, and the
electorate can like it or lump it because Boris will impose it on the
nation and will assume that the majority want it.
It's simply not true that the LibDems will be ignoring the Leave voters.
The main point in their election manifesto will be that if they are
elected to power, they will revoke A50.

Who can really object if they carry out what they promised to do? Or
will they be expected to say "Sorry folks - we've decided not to carry
out what we promised to do, and instead we will be 'respecting' the
three-and-a-half year-old wishes of 17.4M referendum voters".
--
Ian
Yellow
2019-11-02 17:02:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:42:04 +0000 Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by The Todal
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn?s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Not only is it a clear and logical policy, it's also the only policy
that makes good sense.
Brexit Party - a damaging no-deal Brexit and the hope that we can patch
together a deal after we leave
LibDems - ignore the Leave voters because we know that Remain is the
best policy and if we get into government we'll assume that all our
voters want Remain
Tories - an unsatisfactory Boris deal that many think is rather worse
than Theresa's deal, but possibly the best we can achieve, and the
electorate can like it or lump it because Boris will impose it on the
nation and will assume that the majority want it.
It's simply not true that the LibDems will be ignoring the Leave voters.
The main point in their election manifesto will be that if they are
elected to power, they will revoke A50.
Who can really object if they carry out what they promised to do? Or
will they be expected to say "Sorry folks - we've decided not to carry
out what we promised to do, and instead we will be 'respecting' the
three-and-a-half year-old wishes of 17.4M referendum voters".
They will not win the election so it is moot from that standpoint but it
will of course be interesting if they were to enter into a coalition
with Labour.
Stephen Cole
2019-11-02 12:25:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Cole
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Yes negotiate a Labour deal then vote against it. YCNMIU.
If Remain is a better option than the best possible Labour deal (which it
will be) then it’s surely perfectly intellectually honest to say as much,
no?
--
M0TEY // STC
www.twitter.com/ukradioamateur
Ian Jackson
2019-11-02 12:31:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Cole
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
That seems a perfectly honest and democratic procedure to me. It's
essentially stolen from the LibDems, except that the LibDems were
prepared to put the Theresa May deal back to The People, while strongly
recommending that we should remain. The only difference with the Labour
way is that Corbyn believes that he will be able to get an even better
deal than either May's or Johnson's - and that's the one we'll vote on.
However, at the same time they will not be recommending whether we
should remain or accept their deal.
--
Ian
Yellow
2019-11-02 17:00:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:31:58 +0000 Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn?s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
That seems a perfectly honest and democratic procedure to me. It's
essentially stolen from the LibDems, except that the LibDems were
prepared to put the Theresa May deal back to The People, while strongly
recommending that we should remain. The only difference with the Labour
way is that Corbyn believes that he will be able to get an even better
deal than either May's or Johnson's - and that's the one we'll vote on.
However, at the same time they will not be recommending whether we
should remain or accept their deal.
If you watched the political telly you would know they will in fact be
recommending remain, should this referendum ever go ahead.

At least, that is the line at the moment from every Labour MP I have
seen asked the question.
Ian Jackson
2019-11-02 12:33:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Cole
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Yes negotiate a Labour deal then vote against it. YCNMIU.
They are not so much voting against it as simply leaving it up to The
People to decide.
--
Ian
Grik-basstardo®™
2019-11-02 12:45:18 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:33:35 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Yes negotiate a Labour deal then vote against it. YCNMIU.
They are not so much voting against it as simply leaving it up to The
People to decide.
The People already decided once. Parliament ignored it. Why do you
think a second referendum will fare any better?
abelard
2019-11-02 13:18:00 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 05:45:18 -0700, Grik-basstardo®™
Post by Grik-basstardo®™
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:33:35 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Yes negotiate a Labour deal then vote against it. YCNMIU.
They are not so much voting against it as simply leaving it up to The
People to decide.
The People already decided once. Parliament ignored it. Why do you
think a second referendum will fare any better?
acute malignant optimism
--
www.abelard.org
Grik-basstardo®™
2019-11-02 15:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by abelard
On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 05:45:18 -0700, Grik-basstardo®™
Post by Grik-basstardo®™
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:33:35 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Yes negotiate a Labour deal then vote against it. YCNMIU.
They are not so much voting against it as simply leaving it up to The
People to decide.
The People already decided once. Parliament ignored it. Why do you
think a second referendum will fare any better?
acute malignant optimism
The irony would be if the next referendum (if any) produced a massive
Remain majority and the newly elected Conservative government majority
of 150 pushed Brexit through anyway!
abelard
2019-11-02 15:41:16 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 08:36:15 -0700, Grik-basstardo®™
Post by Grik-basstardo®™
Post by abelard
On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 05:45:18 -0700, Grik-basstardo®™
Post by Grik-basstardo®™
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:33:35 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Yes negotiate a Labour deal then vote against it. YCNMIU.
They are not so much voting against it as simply leaving it up to The
People to decide.
The People already decided once. Parliament ignored it. Why do you
think a second referendum will fare any better?
acute malignant optimism
The irony would be if the next referendum (if any) produced a massive
Remain majority and the newly elected Conservative government majority
of 150 pushed Brexit through anyway!
spamela's response would be instructive and maybe even amusing
--
www.abelard.org
Peeler
2019-11-02 16:55:49 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 14:18:00 +0100, abeltard, the notorious, troll-feeding,
Post by abelard
Post by Grik-basstardo®™
The People already decided once. Parliament ignored it. Why do you
think a second referendum will fare any better?
acute malignant optimism
You disgusting troll-feeding retarded senile piece of shit!
Peeler
2019-11-02 16:54:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 05:45:18 -0700, clinically insane, pedophilic, serbian
bitch Razovic, the resident psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous
sexual cripple, making an ass of herself as "Grik-basstardo®™", farted
Post by Grik-basstardo®™
Post by Ian Jackson
They are not so much voting against it as simply leaving it up to The
People to decide.
The People already decided once. Parliament ignored it. Why do you
think a second referendum will fare any better?
"The People" have a right to change their minds. Everything else would be
undemocratic, you dumb serb nazi!
--
Pedophilic dreckserb Razovic arguing in favour of pedophilia, again:
"Isn't it time that paedophiles were admitted to the LGBTQ rainbow?
Now that every other sexual deviation seems to have been accommodated?"
MID: <Y8LUE.513827$***@usenetxs.com>
Grik-basstardo®™
2019-11-02 12:44:09 UTC
Permalink
On 2 Nov 2019 11:04:37 GMT, Stephen Cole
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
There is no more deal negotiating that can be done. And putting a
deal in a referendum is far too complicated for the lumpen
proletariat. HTH.
Peeler
2019-11-02 17:02:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 05:44:09 -0700, clinically insane, pedophilic, serbian
bitch Razovic, the resident psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous
sexual cripple, making an ass of herself as "Grik-basstardo®™", farted
Post by Grik-basstardo®™
Post by Stephen Cole
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
There is no more deal negotiating that can be done. And putting a
deal in a referendum is far too complicated for the lumpen
proletariat. HTH.
Are you sure, psychopath? Psychopathically sure again, you schäbiger Lump?
<BG>
--
Pedophilic dreckserb Razovic arguing in favour of pedophilia, again:
"A lowering of the age of consent to reflect the rate at which today's
youngsters 'mature'."
MID: <gKNUE.1374684$***@usenetxs.com>
Fredxx
2019-11-02 16:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Cole
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.

It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.

Many will simply not vote, and then the argument will be with such a
poor turnout, all those who didn't vote represent those who would leave
without a deal. Quite likely a majority of the electorate.

Perhaps the STV is the only alternative.

Choice 1: Leave with a deal
Choice 2: Leave without a deal
Choice 3: Remain

Of course that assumes people know what STV is!
abelard
2019-11-02 16:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
Many will simply not vote, and then the argument will be with such a
poor turnout, all those who didn't vote represent those who would leave
without a deal. Quite likely a majority of the electorate.
Perhaps the STV is the only alternative.
Choice 1: Leave with a deal
Choice 2: Leave without a deal
Choice 3: Remain
brilliant wheeze...split the opponents vote and claim you 'won'
Post by Fredxx
Of course that assumes people know what STV is!
britain voted against changing the voting system...stv is even
worse, but i doubt you know why
--
www.abelard.org
Pancho
2019-11-02 16:56:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by abelard
britain voted against changing the voting system...stv is even
worse, but i doubt you know why
Perhaps, after the election, the LibDems will hold out for a referendum
changing the voting system to PR, as their price to join a coalition
with BoJo to push through hard brexit.

Although, I wouldn't be surprised if Jo Swinson would cave in for as
little as the deputy PM job.
Fredxx
2019-11-02 19:58:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by abelard
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
Many will simply not vote, and then the argument will be with such a
poor turnout, all those who didn't vote represent those who would leave
without a deal. Quite likely a majority of the electorate.
Perhaps the STV is the only alternative.
Choice 1: Leave with a deal
Choice 2: Leave without a deal
Choice 3: Remain
brilliant wheeze...split the opponents vote and claim you 'won'
Hardly a split. Everyone who votes gets to choose 2 out of the 3 in
order of preference.
Post by abelard
Post by Fredxx
Of course that assumes people know what STV is!
britain voted against changing the voting system...stv is even
worse, but i doubt you know why
In your eyes because minority parties will get more first choice votes
that they would never have got where only a single vote counts.
The Natural Philosopher
2019-11-02 20:07:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by abelard
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
Many will simply not vote, and then the argument will be with such a
poor turnout, all those who didn't vote represent those who would leave
without a deal. Quite likely a majority of the electorate.
Perhaps the STV is the only alternative.
Choice 1: Leave with a deal
Choice 2: Leave without a deal
Choice 3: Remain
brilliant wheeze...split the opponents vote and claim you 'won'
Hardly a split. Everyone who votes gets to choose 2 out of the 3 in
order of preference.
Post by abelard
Post by Fredxx
Of course that assumes people know what STV is!
britain voted against changing the voting system...stv is even
     worse, but i doubt you know why
In your eyes because minority parties will get more first choice votes
that they would never have got where only a single vote counts.
SNP would vanish. They have less national vote than even UKIP
So would Sinn Fein and the DUP.

In shorte bye bye regional politics
--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.
Fredxx
2019-11-02 20:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Fredxx
Post by abelard
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
Many will simply not vote, and then the argument will be with such a
poor turnout, all those who didn't vote represent those who would leave
without a deal. Quite likely a majority of the electorate.
Perhaps the STV is the only alternative.
Choice 1: Leave with a deal
Choice 2: Leave without a deal
Choice 3: Remain
brilliant wheeze...split the opponents vote and claim you 'won'
Hardly a split. Everyone who votes gets to choose 2 out of the 3 in
order of preference.
Post by abelard
Post by Fredxx
Of course that assumes people know what STV is!
britain voted against changing the voting system...stv is even
     worse, but i doubt you know why
In your eyes because minority parties will get more first choice votes
that they would never have got where only a single vote counts.
SNP would vanish. They have less national vote than even UKIP
So would Sinn Fein and the DUP.
In shorte bye bye regional politics
Do you understand STV?

Do still think you'll be voting for a party rather than a local candidate?
Roger Hayter
2019-11-02 20:37:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Fredxx
Post by abelard
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
Many will simply not vote, and then the argument will be with such a
poor turnout, all those who didn't vote represent those who would leave
without a deal. Quite likely a majority of the electorate.
Perhaps the STV is the only alternative.
Choice 1: Leave with a deal
Choice 2: Leave without a deal
Choice 3: Remain
brilliant wheeze...split the opponents vote and claim you 'won'
Hardly a split. Everyone who votes gets to choose 2 out of the 3 in
order of preference.
Post by abelard
Post by Fredxx
Of course that assumes people know what STV is!
britain voted against changing the voting system...stv is even
worse, but i doubt you know why
In your eyes because minority parties will get more first choice votes
that they would never have got where only a single vote counts.
SNP would vanish. They have less national vote than even UKIP
So would Sinn Fein and the DUP.
In shorte bye bye regional politics
One national constituency is not the only, nor even a likely, way to do
STV. As I am sure you know.
--
Roger Hayter
Chang
2019-11-02 20:56:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by abelard
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
Many will simply not vote, and then the argument will be with such a
poor turnout, all those who didn't vote represent those who would leave
without a deal. Quite likely a majority of the electorate.
Perhaps the STV is the only alternative.
Choice 1: Leave with a deal
Choice 2: Leave without a deal
Choice 3: Remain
brilliant wheeze...split the opponents vote and claim you 'won'
Hardly a split. Everyone who votes gets to choose 2 out of the 3 in order
of preference.
Post by abelard
Post by Fredxx
Of course that assumes people know what STV is!
britain voted against changing the voting system...stv is even
worse, but i doubt you know why
In your eyes because minority parties will get more first choice votes
that they would never have got where only a single vote counts.
SNP would vanish.
Depends on how big the multi member electorates are.
They couldn’t if there was one or more for scotland.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
They have less national vote than even UKIP
So would Sinn Fein and the DUP.
Not if NI was one multi member electorate.

That’s how almost all PR systems are done.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
In shorte bye bye regional politics
Odd that it isnt with Italy, Israel, Germany, France etc.
Peeler
2019-11-02 21:10:36 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 07:56:05 +1100, Chang, better known as cantankerous
Post by Chang
Post by The Natural Philosopher
SNP would vanish.
Depends on how big the multi member electorates are.
They couldn’t if there was one or more for scotland.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
They have less national vote than even UKIP
So would Sinn Fein and the DUP.
Not if NI was one multi member electorate.
That’s how almost all PR systems are done.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
In shorte bye bye regional politics
Odd that it isnt with Italy, Israel, Germany, France etc.
In auto-contradicting mode again, you clinically insane nym-shifting
trolling senile pest from Oz? <BG>
--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID: <***@85.214.115.223>
abelard
2019-11-02 20:33:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by abelard
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
Many will simply not vote, and then the argument will be with such a
poor turnout, all those who didn't vote represent those who would leave
without a deal. Quite likely a majority of the electorate.
Perhaps the STV is the only alternative.
Choice 1: Leave with a deal
Choice 2: Leave without a deal
Choice 3: Remain
brilliant wheeze...split the opponents vote and claim you 'won'
Hardly a split. Everyone who votes gets to choose 2 out of the 3 in
order of preference.
Post by abelard
Post by Fredxx
Of course that assumes people know what STV is!
britain voted against changing the voting system...stv is even
worse, but i doubt you know why
In your eyes because minority parties will get more first choice votes
that they would never have got where only a single vote counts.
you are fishing in very deep waters

for every difficult problem there is a solution that is simple,
straight-forward and wrong...mencken

britain and the usa have done very well out of fptp...
most other countries with other systems have come a cropper
fptp forces people to compromise and form social alliances

imv the exception to this is smaller communities (less that 5 to 10
million)

then there is the logic which is very complicated and imv unsound,
eg, k. arrow, 'social choice and individuals'...if you really want
to move into the deep end...

fptp has *evolved* from human experience...such systems and
methods are often safer/more reliable
--
www.abelard.org
Norman Wells
2019-11-03 08:47:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by abelard
Post by Fredxx
Perhaps the STV is the only alternative.
Choice 1: Leave with a deal
Choice 2: Leave without a deal
Choice 3: Remain
brilliant wheeze...split the opponents vote and claim you 'won'
Hardly a split. Everyone who votes gets to choose 2 out of the 3 in
order of preference.
It's still a brilliant wheeze because it's a re-run of the original
referendum. We've already decided not to remain. In accordance with
that, if we were so unfortuante as to have a second referendum, the
choice should simply be:

Choice 1: Leave with a deal
Choice 2: Leave without a deal

A simple binary choice as befits any referendum. Nothing wrong with
that surely?
Ian Jackson
2019-11-02 16:44:55 UTC
Permalink
In message <qpkanl$hc2$***@dont-email.me>, Fredxx <***@nospam.com>
writes
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
Many will simply not vote, and then the argument will be with such a
poor turnout, all those who didn't vote represent those who would leave
without a deal. Quite likely a majority of the electorate.
Perhaps the STV is the only alternative.
Choice 1: Leave with a deal
Choice 2: Leave without a deal
Choice 3: Remain
Of course that assumes people know what STV is!
We've been through all this before (and a few times too).

As a Remainer, I'd prefer No Deal not to be an option, but to forestall
at least some of the inevitable cries of "It's not fair" and "It's not
democracy", it would have to be included. Only two votes would be needed
- a first choice, and an optional second. [Hopefully, voters would
understand that making a second choice was not required if they didn't
want one.] As I've said before, there's a fair chance that With A Deal
would win on second choices.
--
Ian
Yellow
2019-11-02 17:21:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 16:44:55 +0000 Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
As a Remainer, I'd prefer No Deal not to be an option, but to forestall
at least some of the inevitable cries of "It's not fair" and "It's not
democracy", it would have to be included. Only two votes would be needed
- a first choice, and an optional second. [Hopefully, voters would
understand that making a second choice was not required if they didn't
want one.] As I've said before, there's a fair chance that With A Deal
would win on second choices.
Given an argument against having to take ID to the polling station is
that some people will not know about it, and this of course is simply
because they will not have read the instructions that came with their
polling card, I do not see how we can ever be sure that everyone would
be sufficiently educated in the procedure for such a ballot as that is
quite different to what people expect from previous experience.

So not only would they need to understand they do not need to pick a 2nd
choice, they would also need to understand that they could.

They would also need to be educated in the maths in my view, so they
understood the consequences of picking or not picking a second choice.

But for sure, the Labour referendum plan of a very soft Brexit vs Remain
would be a hard one to sell in my view as no one is going to vote for
membership in all but name where we would lose our say but still have to
pay and of course still have FOM, so it would be better to remain and
fight for a proper Brexit another day.

So there would clearly need to be some sort of third choice or there
would be no point to the vote at all.
Ian Jackson
2019-11-02 17:53:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yellow
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 16:44:55 +0000 Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
As a Remainer, I'd prefer No Deal not to be an option, but to forestall
at least some of the inevitable cries of "It's not fair" and "It's not
democracy", it would have to be included. Only two votes would be needed
- a first choice, and an optional second. [Hopefully, voters would
understand that making a second choice was not required if they didn't
want one.] As I've said before, there's a fair chance that With A Deal
would win on second choices.
Given an argument against having to take ID to the polling station is
that some people will not know about it, and this of course is simply
because they will not have read the instructions that came with their
polling card, I do not see how we can ever be sure that everyone would
be sufficiently educated in the procedure for such a ballot as that is
quite different to what people expect from previous experience.
So not only would they need to understand they do not need to pick a 2nd
choice, they would also need to understand that they could.
They would also need to be educated in the maths in my view, so they
understood the consequences of picking or not picking a second choice.
You're surely not suggesting that some voters are stupid, and they don't
understand what they're voting for - and how to? From the previous
reaction of many Brexiteers, they really won't like that, you know.
Post by Yellow
But for sure, the Labour referendum plan of a very soft Brexit vs Remain
would be a hard one to sell in my view as no one is going to vote for
membership in all but name where we would lose our say but still have to
pay and of course still have FOM, so it would be better to remain and
fight for a proper Brexit another day.
So there would clearly need to be some sort of third choice or there
would be no point to the vote at all.
Well, it's certainly a bit silly for certain Remainers to keep insisting
that if a second referendum IS allowed, Remain should not be one of the
questions - and (I guess( that it should only be held to allow Leavers
to sort out their confusion about what they were really voting for the
first time. I've even heard serious suggestions that anyone who voted
Remain should be disqualified from voting in a second referendum -
although when asked how this could be done, answer came there none.
--
Ian
Yellow
2019-11-02 21:32:49 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 17:53:57 +0000 Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 16:44:55 +0000 Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
As a Remainer, I'd prefer No Deal not to be an option, but to forestall
at least some of the inevitable cries of "It's not fair" and "It's not
democracy", it would have to be included. Only two votes would be needed
- a first choice, and an optional second. [Hopefully, voters would
understand that making a second choice was not required if they didn't
want one.] As I've said before, there's a fair chance that With A Deal
would win on second choices.
Given an argument against having to take ID to the polling station is
that some people will not know about it, and this of course is simply
because they will not have read the instructions that came with their
polling card, I do not see how we can ever be sure that everyone would
be sufficiently educated in the procedure for such a ballot as that is
quite different to what people expect from previous experience.
So not only would they need to understand they do not need to pick a 2nd
choice, they would also need to understand that they could.
They would also need to be educated in the maths in my view, so they
understood the consequences of picking or not picking a second choice.
You're surely not suggesting that some voters are stupid, and they don't
understand what they're voting for - and how to? From the previous
reaction of many Brexiteers, they really won't like that, you know.
I am a bit bemused by your response here as I clearly said they need to
understand the maths of how the voting system works. That has nothing to
do with the decision of which option(s) to vote for.

But perhaps you would prefer it if people did not understand and
therefore chose not to use their 2nd choice vote thus resulting in the
leave vote being split. :-)
Ian Jackson
2019-11-02 21:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yellow
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 17:53:57 +0000 Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 16:44:55 +0000 Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
As a Remainer, I'd prefer No Deal not to be an option, but to forestall
at least some of the inevitable cries of "It's not fair" and "It's not
democracy", it would have to be included. Only two votes would be needed
- a first choice, and an optional second. [Hopefully, voters would
understand that making a second choice was not required if they didn't
want one.] As I've said before, there's a fair chance that With A Deal
would win on second choices.
Given an argument against having to take ID to the polling station is
that some people will not know about it, and this of course is simply
because they will not have read the instructions that came with their
polling card, I do not see how we can ever be sure that everyone would
be sufficiently educated in the procedure for such a ballot as that is
quite different to what people expect from previous experience.
So not only would they need to understand they do not need to pick a 2nd
choice, they would also need to understand that they could.
They would also need to be educated in the maths in my view, so they
understood the consequences of picking or not picking a second choice.
You're surely not suggesting that some voters are stupid, and they don't
understand what they're voting for - and how to? From the previous
reaction of many Brexiteers, they really won't like that, you know.
I am a bit bemused by your response here as I clearly said they need to
understand the maths of how the voting system works. That has nothing to
do with the decision of which option(s) to vote for.
But perhaps you would prefer it if people did not understand and
therefore chose not to use their 2nd choice vote thus resulting in the
leave vote being split. :-)
Are you suggesting that people should be obliged to cast a second choice
vote, even if they don't WANT a second choice?
--
Ian
Yellow
2019-11-02 21:53:57 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 21:47:25 +0000 Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 17:53:57 +0000 Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 16:44:55 +0000 Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
As a Remainer, I'd prefer No Deal not to be an option, but to forestall
at least some of the inevitable cries of "It's not fair" and "It's not
democracy", it would have to be included. Only two votes would be needed
- a first choice, and an optional second. [Hopefully, voters would
understand that making a second choice was not required if they didn't
want one.] As I've said before, there's a fair chance that With A Deal
would win on second choices.
Given an argument against having to take ID to the polling station is
that some people will not know about it, and this of course is simply
because they will not have read the instructions that came with their
polling card, I do not see how we can ever be sure that everyone would
be sufficiently educated in the procedure for such a ballot as that is
quite different to what people expect from previous experience.
So not only would they need to understand they do not need to pick a 2nd
choice, they would also need to understand that they could.
They would also need to be educated in the maths in my view, so they
understood the consequences of picking or not picking a second choice.
You're surely not suggesting that some voters are stupid, and they don't
understand what they're voting for - and how to? From the previous
reaction of many Brexiteers, they really won't like that, you know.
I am a bit bemused by your response here as I clearly said they need to
understand the maths of how the voting system works. That has nothing to
do with the decision of which option(s) to vote for.
But perhaps you would prefer it if people did not understand and
therefore chose not to use their 2nd choice vote thus resulting in the
leave vote being split. :-)
Are you suggesting that people should be obliged to cast a second choice
vote, even if they don't WANT a second choice?
I am suggesting that people should understand how the voting system
works.
Grik-basstardo®™
2019-11-02 21:55:40 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 21:47:25 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 17:53:57 +0000 Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 16:44:55 +0000 Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
As a Remainer, I'd prefer No Deal not to be an option, but to forestall
at least some of the inevitable cries of "It's not fair" and "It's not
democracy", it would have to be included. Only two votes would be needed
- a first choice, and an optional second. [Hopefully, voters would
understand that making a second choice was not required if they didn't
want one.] As I've said before, there's a fair chance that With A Deal
would win on second choices.
Given an argument against having to take ID to the polling station is
that some people will not know about it, and this of course is simply
because they will not have read the instructions that came with their
polling card, I do not see how we can ever be sure that everyone would
be sufficiently educated in the procedure for such a ballot as that is
quite different to what people expect from previous experience.
So not only would they need to understand they do not need to pick a 2nd
choice, they would also need to understand that they could.
They would also need to be educated in the maths in my view, so they
understood the consequences of picking or not picking a second choice.
You're surely not suggesting that some voters are stupid, and they don't
understand what they're voting for - and how to? From the previous
reaction of many Brexiteers, they really won't like that, you know.
I am a bit bemused by your response here as I clearly said they need to
understand the maths of how the voting system works. That has nothing to
do with the decision of which option(s) to vote for.
But perhaps you would prefer it if people did not understand and
therefore chose not to use their 2nd choice vote thus resulting in the
leave vote being split. :-)
Are you suggesting that people should be obliged to cast a second choice
vote, even if they don't WANT a second choice?
The lumpen proletariat are too stupid to understand anything other
than a simple binary choice: Leave or Remain. Adding details of a
Brexit deal and/or giving second choices will see voter participation
percentages plummet down to single figures...as if ignoring the result
of the first referendum wasn't damaging enough.

To paraphrase the late Hollyvood jew mogul Sam Goldwyn (né Szmuel
Gelbfisz), this will raise voter participation to a new low.
Peeler
2019-11-02 22:25:42 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 14:55:40 -0700, clinically insane, pedophilic, serbian
bitch Razovic, the resident psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous
sexual cripple, making an ass of herself as "Grik-basstardo®™", farted
Post by Grik-basstardo®™
The lumpen proletariat
The IRONY! You are certainly a typical representative of the
"Lumpenproletariat", you "schäbiger Lump"!
--
Pedophilic dreckserb Razovic arguing in favour of pedophilia, again:
"That [referring to the term "consenting adults"] is just an outdated legal
construct. Are you telling me that a 13-year old who spends 15 hours a day
on Facebook is incapable of consent?"
MID: <Og0VE.1298131$***@usenetxs.com>
Norman Wells
2019-11-03 08:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
I am a bit bemused by your response here as I clearly said they need to
understand the maths of how the voting system works. That has nothing to
do with the decision of which option(s) to vote for.
But perhaps you would prefer it if people did not understand and
therefore chose not to use their 2nd choice vote thus resulting in the
leave vote being split. :-)
Are you suggesting that people should be obliged to cast a second choice
vote, even if they don't WANT a second choice?
'Remain' shouldn't be an option. We decided that in 2016. Take that
out of the equation, and you wouldn't need the complication of a second
choice.

Referendums should be simple binary choices.
Tim Streater
2019-11-02 16:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
Remainers pretend not to have noticed that Remain was removed from
consideration as an option by the 2016 referendum. Politicians of all
stripes said - at the time - that if we voted to Leave, then we leave.

It's also worth pointing out that at the time there was not one whisper
that the referendum was flawed in any way at all.
--
"I love the way that Microsoft follows standards.
In much the same manner as fish follow migrating caribou."
- Paul Tomblin, ASR
Clive Page
2019-11-02 18:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
Remainers pretend not to have noticed that Remain was removed from
consideration as an option by the 2016 referendum. Politicians of all
stripes said - at the time - that if we voted to Leave, then we leave.
But since then opinion has changed: just about every opinion poll for 18 months has given Remain a lead of several percent. The most recent ones suggest around 57% Remain to 43% for Leave. Of course polls are approximate but that's quite a significant difference. This explains why the Leave side are so desperate to avoid letting us have another vote on the issue.
--
Clive Page
JNugent
2019-11-02 18:09:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive Page
Post by Tim Streater
Remainers pretend not to have noticed that Remain was removed from
consideration as an option by the 2016 referendum. Politicians of all
stripes said - at the time - that if we voted to Leave, then we leave.
But since then opinion has changed: just about every opinion poll for 18
months has given Remain a lead of several percent.
Every opinion poll taken before the referendum gave "Remain a lead of
several percent".

What was the outcome?
The Natural Philosopher
2019-11-02 19:45:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive Page
Post by Tim Streater
Remainers pretend not to have noticed that Remain was removed from
consideration as an option by the 2016 referendum. Politicians of all
stripes said - at the time - that if we voted to Leave, then we leave.
But since then opinion has changed: just about every opinion poll for 18
months has given Remain a lead of several percent.  The most recent ones
suggest around 57% Remain to 43% for Leave.  Of course polls are
approximate but that's quite a significant difference.  This explains
why the Leave side are so desperate to avoid letting us have another
vote on the issue.
All the ones I have seen show leave firmly ahead with up to 60%.

Odd aint it?
--
“I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the
greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of
conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

― Leo Tolstoy
michael adams
2019-11-02 17:06:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option, from the once in a
generation referendum result.
David Cameron only called it a once in a generation referendum because he
thought remain would win.

Had he though there was a possibility that remain would lose by a small margin
then he might well have said there might also be a once in generation chance
to have second thoughts
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
I think the grounds for partitioning England into two separate countries are even
stronger. This will also stimulate the economy especially factories producing
breeze blocks and barbed wire, firms specialising in building walls and
people looking for a career manning customs posts. All of which leave
areas are either going to have to pay for, or starve,
Many will simply not vote, and then the argument will be with such a poor turnout, all
those who didn't vote represent those who would leave without a deal. Quite likely a
majority of the electorate.
Perhaps the STV is the only alternative.
Choice 1: Leave with a deal
Choice 2: Leave without a deal
Choice 3: Remain
Of course that assumes people know what STV is!
But that's unfair as there are two leave options and only
one remain option. To even things up there should be two
remain options

Choice 1: Leave with a deal
Choice 2: Leave without a deal
Choice 3: Remain
Choice 4: Remain and pay £1bn to a charity of the EU's
choice for messing them about for 3 years.


michael adams

...
abelard
2019-11-02 17:16:46 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 17:06:23 -0000, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option, from the once in a
generation referendum result.
David Cameron only called it a once in a generation referendum because he
thought remain would win.
mind reading is a very useful aptitude
--
www.abelard.org
charles
2019-11-02 17:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
David Cameron only called it a once in a generation referendum because he
thought remain would win.
Had he though there was a possibility that remain would lose by a small
margin then he might well have said there might also be a once in
generation chance to have second thoughts
Post by Fredxx
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
I think the grounds for partitioning England into two separate countries
are even stronger.
London & the rest?
Post by michael adams
This will also stimulate the economy especially factories producing
breeze blocks and barbed wire, firms specialising in building walls and
people looking for a career manning customs posts. All of which leave
areas are either going to have to pay for, or starve,
Post by Fredxx
Many will simply not vote, and then the argument will be with such a
poor turnout, all those who didn't vote represent those who would leave
without a deal. Quite likely a majority of the electorate.
Perhaps the STV is the only alternative.
Remain
Of course that assumes people know what STV is!
But that's unfair as there are two leave options and only one remain
option. To even things up there should be two remain options
Remain Choice 4: Remain and pay £1bn to a charity of the EU's choice for
messing them about for 3 years.
michael adams
...
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
michael adams
2019-11-02 17:40:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by michael adams
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
David Cameron only called it a once in a generation referendum because he
thought remain would win.
Had he though there was a possibility that remain would lose by a small
margin then he might well have said there might also be a once in
generation chance to have second thoughts
Post by Fredxx
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
I think the grounds for partitioning England into two separate countries
are even stronger.
London & the rest?
I'm only at the planning stages right now but it might be more
a case of London along with enclaves (of both persuasions) dotted
about. There will probably also need to be two BBC's and two
NHS's as well.

This might well be the stimulus England or rather Rengland and
Lengland actually need.

Obviously there will be nothing to stop leave enclaves from
getting their airlifts of chlorinated chicken but otherwise
all major ports will be connected by corridors - complete with
barbed wire and watchtowers etc - linking them directly to storage
and distribution facilities in The Capital.


michael adams

...
Roger Hayter
2019-11-02 19:29:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by charles
Post by michael adams
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
David Cameron only called it a once in a generation referendum because he
thought remain would win.
Had he though there was a possibility that remain would lose by a small
margin then he might well have said there might also be a once in
generation chance to have second thoughts
Post by Fredxx
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
I think the grounds for partitioning England into two separate countries
are even stronger.
London & the rest?
I'm only at the planning stages right now but it might be more
a case of London along with enclaves (of both persuasions) dotted
about. There will probably also need to be two BBC's and two
NHS's as well.
This might well be the stimulus England or rather Rengland and
Lengland actually need.
Obviously there will be nothing to stop leave enclaves from
getting their airlifts of chlorinated chicken but otherwise
all major ports will be connected by corridors - complete with
barbed wire and watchtowers etc - linking them directly to storage
and distribution facilities in The Capital.
michael adams
...
London could apply to be an external territory of Scotland, like
Gibraltar is of the UK. I'd vote for that if I were still living in
London.
--
Roger Hayter
michael adams
2019-11-02 19:40:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by michael adams
Post by charles
Post by michael adams
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
David Cameron only called it a once in a generation referendum because he
thought remain would win.
Had he though there was a possibility that remain would lose by a small
margin then he might well have said there might also be a once in
generation chance to have second thoughts
Post by Fredxx
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
I think the grounds for partitioning England into two separate countries
are even stronger.
London & the rest?
I'm only at the planning stages right now but it might be more
a case of London along with enclaves (of both persuasions) dotted
about. There will probably also need to be two BBC's and two
NHS's as well.
This might well be the stimulus England or rather Rengland and
Lengland actually need.
Obviously there will be nothing to stop leave enclaves from
getting their airlifts of chlorinated chicken but otherwise
all major ports will be connected by corridors - complete with
barbed wire and watchtowers etc - linking them directly to storage
and distribution facilities in The Capital.
michael adams
...
London could apply to be an external territory of Scotland, like
Gibraltar is of the UK. I'd vote for that if I were still living in
London.
Londoners would still need control of the ports though. Dover voted
62.2% leave so obviously somebody is going to have to get busy with
the breeze blocks, barbed wire, and watch towers


michael adams

...
Roger Hayter
2019-11-02 20:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by michael adams
Post by charles
Post by michael adams
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal
to a referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an
option, from the once in a generation referendum result.
David Cameron only called it a once in a generation referendum
because he thought remain would win.
Had he though there was a possibility that remain would lose by a
small margin then he might well have said there might also be a once
in generation chance to have second thoughts
Post by Fredxx
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
I think the grounds for partitioning England into two separate
countries are even stronger.
London & the rest?
I'm only at the planning stages right now but it might be more
a case of London along with enclaves (of both persuasions) dotted
about. There will probably also need to be two BBC's and two
NHS's as well.
This might well be the stimulus England or rather Rengland and
Lengland actually need.
Obviously there will be nothing to stop leave enclaves from
getting their airlifts of chlorinated chicken but otherwise
all major ports will be connected by corridors - complete with
barbed wire and watchtowers etc - linking them directly to storage
and distribution facilities in The Capital.
michael adams
...
London could apply to be an external territory of Scotland, like
Gibraltar is of the UK. I'd vote for that if I were still living in
London.
Londoners would still need control of the ports though. Dover voted
62.2% leave so obviously somebody is going to have to get busy with
the breeze blocks, barbed wire, and watch towers
michael adams
...
Anyone seriously looked into the possibility of a deep water Thames port
recently? Trains to Dover could be customs sealed, fun and exciting
smuggling opportunities would not be large in revenue terms.
--
Roger Hayter
The Natural Philosopher
2019-11-02 20:16:21 UTC
Permalink
On 02/11/2019 20:06, Roger Hayter wrote:
.
Post by Roger Hayter
Anyone seriously looked into the possibility of a deep water Thames port
recently?
Its already open
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_London
--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx
Joe
2019-11-02 20:36:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 20:06:15 +0000
Post by Roger Hayter
Anyone seriously looked into the possibility of a deep water Thames
port recently?
What, something like this?

https://www.londongateway.com/
--
Joe
Keema's Nan
2019-11-02 19:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by michael adams
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
David Cameron only called it a once in a generation referendum because he
thought remain would win.
Had he though there was a possibility that remain would lose by a small
margin then he might well have said there might also be a once in
generation chance to have second thoughts
Post by Fredxx
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
I think the grounds for partitioning England into two separate countries
are even stronger.
London & the rest?
I'm only at the planning stages right now but it might be more
a case of London along with enclaves (of both persuasions) dotted
about. There will probably also need to be two BBC's and two
NHS's as well.
This might well be the stimulus England or rather Rengland and
Lengland actually need.
Obviously there will be nothing to stop leave enclaves from
getting their airlifts of chlorinated chicken but otherwise
all major ports will be connected by corridors - complete with
barbed wire and watchtowers etc - linking them directly to storage
and distribution facilities in The Capital.
michael adams
...
Just leave it at inside the M25 and the rest. It makes a great barrier
especially if border posts are erected on slip roads to/from and bridges over
the motorway.
Tim Lamb
2019-11-03 09:20:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by michael adams
Post by michael adams
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
David Cameron only called it a once in a generation referendum because he
thought remain would win.
Had he though there was a possibility that remain would lose by a small
margin then he might well have said there might also be a once in
generation chance to have second thoughts
Post by Fredxx
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
I think the grounds for partitioning England into two separate countries
are even stronger.
London & the rest?
I'm only at the planning stages right now but it might be more
a case of London along with enclaves (of both persuasions) dotted
about. There will probably also need to be two BBC's and two
NHS's as well.
This might well be the stimulus England or rather Rengland and
Lengland actually need.
Obviously there will be nothing to stop leave enclaves from
getting their airlifts of chlorinated chicken but otherwise
all major ports will be connected by corridors - complete with
barbed wire and watchtowers etc - linking them directly to storage
and distribution facilities in The Capital.
michael adams
...
Just leave it at inside the M25 and the rest. It makes a great barrier
especially if border posts are erected on slip roads to/from and bridges over
the motorway.
Oi! St. Albans voted remain and is outside the M25. I think you would
need to include the commuter belt.
--
Tim Lamb
kat
2019-11-02 21:49:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by charles
Post by michael adams
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
What is Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
David Cameron only called it a once in a generation referendum because he
thought remain would win.
Had he though there was a possibility that remain would lose by a small
margin then he might well have said there might also be a once in
generation chance to have second thoughts
Post by Fredxx
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
I think the grounds for partitioning England into two separate countries
are even stronger.
London & the rest?
I'm only at the planning stages right now but it might be more
a case of London along with enclaves (of both persuasions) dotted
about. There will probably also need to be two BBC's and two
NHS's as well.
This might well be the stimulus England or rather Rengland and
Lengland actually need.
Obviously there will be nothing to stop leave enclaves from
getting their airlifts of chlorinated chicken but otherwise
all major ports will be connected by corridors - complete with
barbed wire and watchtowers etc - linking them directly to storage
and distribution facilities in The Capital.
And if those ports voted Leave, do you think they would be willing to do that?
--
kat
Post by michael adams
^..^<
Keema's Nan
2019-11-02 19:39:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
Many will simply not vote, and then the argument will be with such a
poor turnout, all those who didn't vote represent those who would leave
without a deal. Quite likely a majority of the electorate.
Perhaps the STV is the only alternative.
Choice 1: Leave with a deal
Choice 2: Leave without a deal
Choice 3: Remain
Of course that assumes people know what STV is!
Is it something you catch; and gives you sleepless nights?
kat
2019-11-02 22:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Fredxx
Post by Stephen Cole
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
Form a Labour government, negotiate a Labour deal, put that deal to a
referendum vs Remain. HTH.
Any decent politician would understand that Remain is not an option,
from the once in a generation referendum result.
It should be accept the deal, or leave with no deal.
Many will simply not vote, and then the argument will be with such a
poor turnout, all those who didn't vote represent those who would leave
without a deal. Quite likely a majority of the electorate.
Perhaps the STV is the only alternative.
Choice 1: Leave with a deal
Choice 2: Leave without a deal
Choice 3: Remain
Of course that assumes people know what STV is!
Is it something you catch; and gives you sleepless nights?
Or something you watch? :-)
--
kat
Post by Keema's Nan
^..^<
Joe
2019-11-02 11:34:23 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 10:18:19 +0000
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
"The Labour leader has set out a careful position on how he would
like to deal with Brexit in a strategy aimed at not alienating either
leave or remain voters at an election".
... *not alienating either leave or remain voters* ...
Into a General Election Campaign and the dull bugga still sits on the
fence hoping to fuck, the electorate will never notice! Perhaps many
will not?
The more and more I research, 'what is the policy of the Labour Party
regards Remain/Leave [EU]', I discover they don't actually have a
policy. A party without a plan, oh dear!
Is this not what this General Election is about? Do we Leave, do we Stay?
Should not a major UK party be obligated to state one way or the
other? Makes their policies as easy to understand to the people they
hope will vote for them?
Perhaps Corbyn is so charismatic he believes he will win votes on his
very own charm. No, I haven't converted, smarm of course!
They have set out their broad economic policies, and those say 'Leave'
in the largest possible letters. An EU member state simply cannot
nationalise wholesale. Corbyn knows it, and so do his sycophants.

I suspect at some point in the election campaign, particularly if Labour
has just said something especially Remainish, somebody is going to point
this out. Possibly Andrew Neil, possibly Boris.

It is perfectly possible that the cleanest Brexit will be obtained by
voting for Corbyn, but the price is far too high.
--
Joe
abelard
2019-11-02 11:51:03 UTC
Permalink
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
"The Labour leader has set out a careful position on how he would like
to deal with Brexit in a strategy aimed at not alienating either leave
or remain voters at an election".
... *not alienating either leave or remain voters* ...
agent cob...
for remoaners....'believe me i'm for remain'
for brexiteers...'i really rather like brexit'
for brain donors...'i'm on your side'
for capitalists...'i want to protect british business'
for the unions who own him...'we will funnel tax money to you'
for cult members...'all other religions will be banned'
for the educated...'i hate you'
for the kulaks...'remember stalin'
for the jews...'remember adolf'
--
www.abelard.org
Yellow
2019-11-02 16:57:08 UTC
Permalink
What is Jeremy Corbyn?s Brexit position?
"The Labour leader has set out a careful position on how he would like
to deal with Brexit in a strategy aimed at not alienating either leave
or remain voters at an election".
... *not alienating either leave or remain voters* ...
Into a General Election Campaign and the dull bugga still sits on the
fence hoping to fuck, the electorate will never notice! Perhaps many
will not?
The more and more I research, 'what is the policy of the Labour Party
regards Remain/Leave [EU]', I discover they don't actually have a
policy. A party without a plan, oh dear!
Is this not what this General Election is about? Do we Leave, do we Stay?
Should not a major UK party be obligated to state one way or the other?
Makes their policies as easy to understand to the people they hope will
vote for them?
Perhaps Corbyn is so charismatic he believes he will win votes on his
very own charm. No, I haven't converted, smarm of course!
omega
I watch a lot of political telly and all the Labour MPs are singing from
the same hymn sheet that "it is for the public to decide" and they will
be offered a very 'soft' Brexit with both SM and CU membership (given
the EU are prepared to again open negotiations) vs remain.

So it is surely clear to everyone that if you vote Labour and they get
in with a majority (or a coalition with the LibDems/SNP/Greens), you
will get remain.
sdfoisdlj
2019-11-02 17:04:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Omega
What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?
"The Labour leader has set out a careful position on how he would like
to deal with Brexit in a strategy aimed at not alienating either leave
or remain voters at an election".
... *not alienating either leave or remain voters* ...
Into a General Election Campaign and the dull bugga still sits on the
fence hoping to fuck, the electorate will never notice! Perhaps many
will not?
The more and more I research, 'what is the policy of the Labour Party
regards Remain/Leave [EU]', I discover they don't actually have a
policy. A party without a plan, oh dear!
Is this not what this General Election is about? Do we Leave, do we Stay?
Should not a major UK party be obligated to state one way or the other?
Makes their policies as easy to understand to the people they hope will
vote for them?
Perhaps Corbyn is so charismatic he believes he will win votes on his
very own charm. No, I haven't converted, smarm of course!
omega
boris johnson has pushed theresa mays blackmail position, around theresa
mays deal, to 'january 2020'

that is what he is stating now
Ophelia
2019-11-02 18:57:44 UTC
Permalink
"Omega" wrote in message news:qpjl59$nsb$***@dont-email.me...

What is Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit position?

"The Labour leader has set out a careful position on how he would like
to deal with Brexit in a strategy aimed at not alienating either leave
or remain voters at an election".


... *not alienating either leave or remain voters* ...


Into a General Election Campaign and the dull bugga still sits on the
fence hoping to fuck, the electorate will never notice! Perhaps many
will not?

The more and more I research, 'what is the policy of the Labour Party
regards Remain/Leave [EU]', I discover they don't actually have a
policy. A party without a plan, oh dear!

Is this not what this General Election is about? Do we Leave, do we Stay?

Should not a major UK party be obligated to state one way or the other?
Makes their policies as easy to understand to the people they hope will
vote for them?

Perhaps Corbyn is so charismatic he believes he will win votes on his
very own charm. No, I haven't converted, smarm of course!

omega
==

LOL yeah right!!
Loading...