Eurostars with clogs on

[Arthur Figgis]

Rejoice (maybe).

"Eurostar, the Dutch government and Dutch national passenger operator NS
have signed an agreement for the launch of direct services between
London and Amsterdam Centraal in December 2016."

But: "details of the immigration and baggage screening procedures for
UK-bound journeys were still to be worked out"

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/eurostar-confirms-launch-of-london-amsterdam-services-in-december-2016.html

[Roland Perry]

In message <***@brightview.co.uk>, at
19:37:01 on Fri, 27 Sep 2013, Arthur Figgis

Post by Arthur Figgis
"details of the immigration and baggage screening procedures for
UK-bound journeys were still to be worked out"

Says it all.

[Charles Ellson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 19:37:01 +0100, Arthur Figgis

Post by Arthur Figgis
Rejoice (maybe).
"Eurostar, the Dutch government and Dutch national passenger operator NS
have signed an agreement for the launch of direct services between
London and Amsterdam Centraal in December 2016."
But: "details of the immigration and baggage screening procedures for
UK-bound journeys were still to be worked out"

From Amsterdam ?
A dozen sniffer dogs ? ;-)

Post by Arthur Figgis
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/eurostar-confirms-launch-of-london-amsterdam-services-in-december-2016.html

[Peter]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 19:37:01 +0100, Arthur Figgis

Post by Arthur Figgis
Rejoice (maybe).
"Eurostar, the Dutch government and Dutch national passenger operator NS
have signed an agreement for the launch of direct services between
London and Amsterdam Centraal in December 2016."

It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly? I
wonder how the costs will compare? Can the train really compete on
this route? I wonder if Eurostar might do better looking at routes
that run more-or-less in the same direction as the tunnel, rather than
ones that require a (relatively) sharp turn at the French end?

Peter.

[John Levine]

Post by Peter
It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly?

Not really. At the London end, it's an hour to Heathrow, and an hour
to get on the plane, while St Pancras is fairly central and the
check-in is 30 mins, 10 if you're in business class or a high-level
frequent traveller.

At Schiphol it's not as bad, but it still takes on the order of 1/2 hr
to get to the airport train station and another 20 mins into
Amsterdam. Add all that to the hour in flight, and the times are
looking pretty comparable, particularly if there is any weather to
screw up the air schedules at Heathrow.

I've taken the train from Cambridge to Amsterdam, changing at KGX/StP
and Brussels, and even with the change the time wasn't bad. There are
quite a few flights from LCY which would likely be faster for people
in the Canary Wharf financial area, but LCY is as bad as LHR from the
rest of London.

[Roland Perry]

Post by John Levine
I've taken the train from Cambridge to Amsterdam, changing at KGX/StP
and Brussels, and even with the change the time wasn't bad. There are
quite a few flights from LCY which would likely be faster for people
in the Canary Wharf financial area, but LCY is as bad as LHR from the
rest of London.

There are direct flights from Cambridge again now, by Darwin Air. With
the timetable allowing a day trip either way:

CBG 06.55 - AMS 08.45 / AMS 20.15 - CBG 20.15 or:
AMS 09.15 - CBG 09.15 / CBG 18.50 - AMS 20.40

[Charles Ellson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine
I've taken the train from Cambridge to Amsterdam, changing at KGX/StP
and Brussels, and even with the change the time wasn't bad. There are
quite a few flights from LCY which would likely be faster for people
in the Canary Wharf financial area, but LCY is as bad as LHR from the
rest of London.

There are direct flights from Cambridge again now, by Darwin Air.

I can't quite put my finger on it but something seems a bit dodgy
about that name. ;-)

Post by Roland Perry
With
AMS 09.15 - CBG 09.15 / CBG 18.50 - AMS 20.40

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine
I've taken the train from Cambridge to Amsterdam, changing at KGX/StP
and Brussels, and even with the change the time wasn't bad. There are
quite a few flights from LCY which would likely be faster for people
in the Canary Wharf financial area, but LCY is as bad as LHR from the
rest of London.

There are direct flights from Cambridge again now, by Darwin Air.

I can't quite put my finger on it but something seems a bit dodgy
about that name. ;-)

Have they won any awards?

[Recliner]

Post by John Levine

Post by Peter
It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly?

Not really. At the London end, it's an hour to Heathrow, and an hour
to get on the plane, while St Pancras is fairly central and the
check-in is 30 mins, 10 if you're in business class or a high-level
frequent traveller.
At Schiphol it's not as bad, but it still takes on the order of 1/2 hr
to get to the airport train station and another 20 mins into
Amsterdam. Add all that to the hour in flight, and the times are
looking pretty comparable, particularly if there is any weather to
screw up the air schedules at Heathrow.
I've taken the train from Cambridge to Amsterdam, changing at KGX/StP
and Brussels, and even with the change the time wasn't bad. There are
quite a few flights from LCY which would likely be faster for people
in the Canary Wharf financial area, but LCY is as bad as LHR from the
rest of London.

And not just from LCY: there are direct flights to AMS from many UK
airports, so anyone within an hour of any of them would be better off
flying (both time-wise and probably expense-wise, too). I'm one of them: I
live in west London, and it's quicker for me to get to Heathrow than St P,
and I prefer the airy, efficient Terminal 5 to the dingy, cramped Eurostar
terminal.

[Roland Perry]

In message

, at 03:09:11 on Sat, 28 Sep 2013, Recliner
I prefer the airy, efficient Terminal 5 to the dingy, cramped Eurostar
terminal.

The Eurostar Terminal isn't that bad (the Barlow shed), but their
departure lounge is a bit less inspiring. But then again, so are most of
the gate-areas at Schiphol.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry
In message

, at 03:09:11 on Sat, 28 Sep 2013, Recliner
I prefer the airy, efficient Terminal 5 to the dingy, cramped Eurostar
terminal.

The Eurostar Terminal isn't that bad (the Barlow shed), but their
departure lounge is a bit less inspiring. But then again, so are most of
the gate-areas at Schiphol.

The Barlow shed is magnificent, but departing Eurostar passengers
hardly notice it as they check in and can't even see it from the small
departure lounge. And when their train is called, they don't have much
time to gaze at the roof.

Conversely, most of the Heathrow T5 lounges have great views.

[Mizter T]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
I prefer the airy, efficient Terminal 5 to the dingy, cramped Eurostar
terminal.

The Eurostar Terminal isn't that bad (the Barlow shed), but their
departure lounge is a bit less inspiring. But then again, so are most of
the gate-areas at Schiphol.

The Barlow shed is magnificent, but departing Eurostar passengers
hardly notice it as they check in and can't even see it from the small
departure lounge. And when their train is called, they don't have much
time to gaze at the roof.
Conversely, most of the Heathrow T5 lounges have great views.

You don't need to spend long in the E* departure lounge (the half-hour
minimum check-in for plebs isn't enforced).

[tony sayer]

Post by John Levine
I've taken the train from Cambridge to Amsterdam, changing at KGX/StP
and Brussels, and even with the change the time wasn't bad. There are
quite a few flights from LCY which would likely be faster for people
in the Canary Wharf financial area, but LCY is as bad as LHR from the
rest of London.

I think you'll find that Amsterdam is now around an hour or less from
Cambridge airport which is now running more flights..


http://www.darwinairline.com/en/carte/carte.html?skip=1

http://www.cambridgeairport.com/

[Roland Perry]

Post by Peter

Post by Arthur Figgis
"Eurostar, the Dutch government and Dutch national passenger operator NS
have signed an agreement for the launch of direct services between
London and Amsterdam Centraal in December 2016."

Last time this subject dropped up here we seemed to conclude the trains
would operate from Amsterdam Zuid/WTC (iirc).

Post by Peter
It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly?

As ever, it depends where your end points are.

When I lived in Nottingham it was a half hour bus/drive to East Midlands
Airport and an hour was plenty of check-in time. On the train I'd have
to allow 20 minutes to the station, and it was then an hour and 45
minutes to St Pancras (so no cross-London allowance required) and say
half an hour check-in [a bit brave given the typical timekeeping on the
Midland Mainline]. So by the time the E* was leaving St Pancras the
plane could be at the gate at Schiphol.

Then half an hour to Centraal.

Coming back, much the same: half an hour from Centraal, an hour
check-in, a one hour flight and half an hour drive back home.

If you were really unlucky there might be a short delay at Schiphol
immigration if you landed after a couple of flights from the far east,
but they have more than one immigration facility, if you know the ropes.
At East Midlands, just a short bus ride and if you knew which door to
stand next to, at the front of the queue in an empty immigration hall.

Of course, it's not always like that - Luton had dreadful queues in the
evening when I flew back from Geneva, and it was a two hour drive home.
And BMIbay is defunct, so no Amsterdam flights from East Midlands any
more. But it's only half an hour longer to get to Birmingham airport for
Flybe and KLM.

Post by Peter
I wonder how the costs will compare? Can the train really compete on
this route?

With both planes and trains offering various advance purchase options,
comparing prices is difficult. I looked at Cambridge-Amsterdam flights
for the 21/22 October just now, and it's from £150 return. Fully
flexible tickets are £700, but a Business Premier return to Brussels on
E* is £490.

Post by Peter
I wonder if Eurostar might do better looking at routes
that run more-or-less in the same direction as the tunnel, rather than
ones that require a (relatively) sharp turn at the French end?

They are using the only HS rail link, via Brussels. I'm sure that's much
faster than going on classic lines via Bruges or Ghent, and also
significantly increases the market.

ps The baggage immigration issues aren't just at Amsterdam, but also at
Antwerp, Rotterdam and Schiphol. This service is clearly Fyra v2,
extended to London.

[Peter]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Peter
I wonder if Eurostar might do better looking at routes
that run more-or-less in the same direction as the tunnel, rather than
ones that require a (relatively) sharp turn at the French end?

They are using the only HS rail link, via Brussels. I'm sure that's much
faster than going on classic lines via Bruges or Ghent, and also
significantly increases the market.

That wasn't what I meant. I was questioning the merit of opening
routes to the north at all, rather than those to the east. I wondered
if the HS gains might be better in that direction. I don't know what
connections the Paris-Strasbourg TGV line (umm... TGV Est?) has, but I
was thinking in terms of, perhaps, getting onto that and heading for,
say, Stuttgart/Munich/Vienna rather than Amsterdam.

And before anyone says "that's crazy!", I'll admit that my knowledge
of actual rail routes outside GB is pretty much non-existent.

Peter.

[Roland Perry]

I don't know what connections the Paris-Strasbourg TGV line (umm...
TGV Est?) has, but I was thinking in terms of, perhaps, getting onto
that and heading for, say, Stuttgart/Munich/Vienna rather than Amsterdam.

DB have plans for that.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

I don't know what connections the Paris-Strasbourg TGV line (umm... >TGV
Est?) has, but I was thinking in terms of, perhaps, getting onto >that
and heading for, say, Stuttgart/Munich/Vienna rather than Amsterdam.

DB have plans for that.

I thought DB's plan was to go to Frankfurt via Brussels and Cologne?

[Roland Perry]

In message

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

I don't know what connections the Paris-Strasbourg TGV line (umm... >TGV
Est?) has, but I was thinking in terms of, perhaps, getting onto >that
and heading for, say, Stuttgart/Munich/Vienna rather than Amsterdam.

DB have plans for that.

I thought DB's plan was to go to Frankfurt via Brussels and Cologne?

All very much in the direction requested.

[Peter]

Post by Roland Perry
In message

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

I don't know what connections the Paris-Strasbourg TGV line (umm... >TGV
Est?) has, but I was thinking in terms of, perhaps, getting onto >that
and heading for, say, Stuttgart/Munich/Vienna rather than Amsterdam.

DB have plans for that.

I thought DB's plan was to go to Frankfurt via Brussels and Cologne?

All very much in the direction requested.

Yes, you're right. I was thinking in terms of that general direction,
rather than the specific potential destinations I mentioned. I confess
that I'd forgotten about DB's proposals. Thanks for reminding me.
Intuitively, they make more sense to me than Eurostar's, though I note
the comments made in response to my first thoughts.

But I'd say "suggested" rather than "requested" :-) Whilst I'd love
to spend a holiday wandering around Europe on the trains, that'll have
to wait until I retire (two or three years yet). And I have no need to
travel that far afield on business.

Peter.

[Recliner]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 11:17:16 +0100, Peter

Post by Peter

Post by Roland Perry
In message

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

I don't know what connections the Paris-Strasbourg TGV line (umm... >TGV
Est?) has, but I was thinking in terms of, perhaps, getting onto >that
and heading for, say, Stuttgart/Munich/Vienna rather than Amsterdam.

DB have plans for that.

I thought DB's plan was to go to Frankfurt via Brussels and Cologne?

All very much in the direction requested.

Yes, you're right. I was thinking in terms of that general direction,
rather than the specific potential destinations I mentioned. I confess
that I'd forgotten about DB's proposals. Thanks for reminding me.
Intuitively, they make more sense to me than Eurostar's, though I note
the comments made in response to my first thoughts.

I thought Eurostar also planned to go to Germany, though I'm not sure
if they plan to go further than Cologne. As Eurostar is, effectively,
controlled by SNCF, I wonder if it won't, some time in the future,
serve more French routes, such as the TGV Est destinations you
mentioned. It may need a larger fleet of Velaro e320s for that,
though.

For the same reason, DB may want to minimise its French mileage.

[Mizter T]

Post by Recliner
[...0
I thought Eurostar also planned to go to Germany, though I'm not sure
if they plan to go further than Cologne. As Eurostar is, effectively,
controlled by SNCF, I wonder if it won't, some time in the future,
serve more French routes, such as the TGV Est destinations you
mentioned. It may need a larger fleet of Velaro e320s for that,
though.

Eurostar does seem like a fairly independent operation though - viz the
choice of the Siemens Velaro trains (rather than an Alstom product).

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by Mizter T

Post by Recliner
[...0
I thought Eurostar also planned to go to Germany, though I'm not sure
if they plan to go further than Cologne. As Eurostar is, effectively,
controlled by SNCF, I wonder if it won't, some time in the future,
serve more French routes, such as the TGV Est destinations you
mentioned. It may need a larger fleet of Velaro e320s for that,
though.

Eurostar does seem like a fairly independent operation though - viz the
choice of the Siemens Velaro trains (rather than an Alstom product).

Unless it was a way for SNCF to send a message to Alstom, via a small
order...

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry
In message

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

I don't know what connections the Paris-Strasbourg TGV line (umm... >TGV
Est?) has, but I was thinking in terms of, perhaps, getting onto >that
and heading for, say, Stuttgart/Munich/Vienna rather than Amsterdam.

DB have plans for that.

I thought DB's plan was to go to Frankfurt via Brussels and Cologne?

All very much in the direction requested.

It's still going to be very slow compared to flying. And I wouldn't be
surprised if it's not much more expensive, too.

[Clank]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
In message

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

I don't know what connections the Paris-Strasbourg TGV line (umm... >TGV
Est?) has, but I was thinking in terms of, perhaps, getting onto >that
and heading for, say, Stuttgart/Munich/Vienna rather than Amsterdam.

DB have plans for that.

I thought DB's plan was to go to Frankfurt via Brussels and Cologne?

All very much in the direction requested.

It's still going to be very slow compared to flying. And I wouldn't be
surprised if it's not much more expensive, too.

I took the train from Dusseldorf to London about a year ago, and even with
changes at Cologne and Brussels the overall journey time was not vastly
uncompetitive with flying, taking checkin times and the inconvenient
location of the airports at either end into account.

In terms if comfort of course it was lightyears ahead of the flying option.

Price was good too - I actually already had a flight booked but I decided
to stay a couple more days in Germany: a 1st class through ticket on the
train was cheaper than rebooking the flight at short notice.


I will be absolutely delighted if/when DB's plans come to pass (and as a
relatively frequent traveller to the Netherlands, I can guarantee I'll take
advantage of that service too, the only proviso being that Eurostar need to
stop fleecing British customers - the aforementioned trip would have been
twice as expensive in the other direction because of E*s extortion.)

[Roland Perry]

In message
<468150901402064508.060327clank75-***@reader443.eternal-septem
ber.org>, at 12:43:15 on Sat, 28 Sep 2013, Clank

Post by Clank
I took the train from Dusseldorf to London about a year ago, and even with
changes at Cologne and Brussels the overall journey time was not vastly
uncompetitive with flying, taking checkin times and the inconvenient
location of the airports at either end into account.

Sorry, that just doesn't add up.

I've flown through Dusseldorf (on the way to/from other places) a few
times, and it's just over one hour flying time from UK airports.

Looking at Monday, most trains on the Dusseldorf-St Pancras route (see
Bahn.de) are scheduled at a little over 7hrs, with the absolute quickest
achieving 5hr 59 minutes.

[Clank]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Clank
I took the train from Dusseldorf to London about a year ago, and even with
changes at Cologne and Brussels the overall journey time was not vastly
uncompetitive with flying, taking checkin times and the inconvenient
location of the airports at either end into account.

Sorry, that just doesn't add up.

Are you telling me I'm lying?

I assure you, I was there, I made the trip, and for the times I wanted to
travel the train was not uncompetitive, as well as being cheaper.

Just checking quickly, if I wanted to leave Dusseldorf by train at 3pm on
Tuesday, I can be in St Pancras at 8pm.

If I wanted to do the same by plane, leaving Dusseldorf at 3pm I'd need to
catch the 4.45 Lufthansa flight to LHR, arriving at 5.10. Assuming an
unprecedented on time arrival, the earliest I'm realistically going to get
to St Pancras is 6.30, a whole hour and a half earlier.

I can currently buy the rail ticket for 159 euro 1st class (DB's London
Spezial 1st fare). The fares for the two flights that leave at that time
are currently 190 quid (Lufthansa) and 325 quid (BA.)

Less money, avoids airports (which if you fly every week as I do is worth
its weight in gold,) first class and the opportunity to do some work, and
the only downside is it takes an extra 90 minutes? That's not 'vastly
uncompetitive' and it does 'add up.'


I expect an apology.

[Clank]

Post by Clank

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Clank
I took the train from Dusseldorf to London about a year ago, and even with
changes at Cologne and Brussels the overall journey time was not vastly
uncompetitive with flying, taking checkin times and the inconvenient
location of the airports at either end into account.

Sorry, that just doesn't add up.

Are you telling me I'm lying?
I assure you, I was there, I made the trip, and for the times I wanted to
travel the train was not uncompetitive, as well as being cheaper.
Just checking quickly, if I wanted to leave Dusseldorf by train at 3pm on
Tuesday, I can be in St Pancras at 8pm.

(typo, Thursday - times still as per below but prices will be different -
higher for both options.)

[Neil Williams]

Post by Clank
Less money, avoids airports (which if you fly every week as I do is worth
its weight in gold,) first class and the opportunity to do some work, and
the only downside is it takes an extra 90 minutes? That's not 'vastly
uncompetitive' and it does 'add up.'

Though if you're a weekly commuter, that hour and a half is the difference
between a usable evening and one that involves eating then straight to bed.
And if easyJet were involved the fare wouldn't be anything like that in my
experience.

Neil

[Mizter T]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Clank
Less money, avoids airports (which if you fly every week as I do is worth
its weight in gold,) first class and the opportunity to do some work, and
the only downside is it takes an extra 90 minutes? That's not 'vastly
uncompetitive' and it does 'add up.'

Though if you're a weekly commuter, that hour and a half is the difference
between a usable evening and one that involves eating then straight to bed.
And if easyJet were involved the fare wouldn't be anything like that in my
experience.

One can eat on a train (including foodstuffs obtained elsewhere).

[Roland Perry]

Post by Mizter T
One can eat on a train (including foodstuffs obtained elsewhere).

You can also eat at the airport while waiting for the plane to start
boarding[1], or buy something and take it aboard. I agree that the
airline food for a typical 1hr flight isn't something to pin your hopes
on.

[1] Which I used to do routinely when returning from Amsterdam or
Geneva. It's especially good at Geneva because they have a small set
of satellite gates with facilities immediately to hand.

[Neil Williams]

Post by Mizter T
One can eat on a train (including foodstuffs obtained elsewhere).

Food is allowed through airport security. Anyhow, I know it costs, but I
do like a meal at the airport before flying, particularly a fry up for
breakfast!

Neil

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by Clank
I can currently buy the rail ticket for 159 euro 1st class (DB's London
Spezial 1st fare).

You might need to be careful here. For the past year or so I've found
the many of the through fares to London offered by DB's booking system
are actually unbookable, but the system only tells you this after you
have entered your payment card details etc and pressed the buy button.

I /guess/ the problem might be that DB's booking engine only queries the
Eurostar reservation system (rather than timetable) when you try to buy,
and it then finds there are no spaces left for DB-booked passengers(?),
only Eurostar booked ones. But this is just a guess.

Booking (arriving from Poznan on Jan Kiepura-) Koeln - London a few
weeks ago, DB offered good fares but wouldn't let me book any of them.
Thalys offered ludicrously high though fares. Eurostar offered a single
from Koeln for the same price as a single from Brussels, but AFAICT no
opportunity to build in extra time at Brussels to drink beer and eat chips.

[Clank]

Post by Clank
I can currently buy the rail ticket for 159 euro 1st class (DB's London
Spezial 1st fare).

You might need to be careful here. For the past year or so I've found the
many of the through fares to London offered by DB's booking system are
actually unbookable, but the system only tells you this after you have
entered your payment card details etc and pressed the buy button.

This may be true, but the example I gave was the journey I actually made,
and I booked it for the 159 euro 1st class London Spezial fare.

(For the record, I was in Eindhoven at the weekend, taking the train to
Dusseldorf on the Sunday with a flight booked back to London on Tuesday; I
discovered on the Saturday that I had cause to need to be in Dusseldorf
longer and the train back on the Thursday was significantly cheaper, and
given my plans also more convenient, than rebooking a flight.)

[Roland Perry]

In message
<1030811189402147222.128647clank75-***@reader443.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 11:49:35 on Sun, 29 Sep 2013, Clank

Post by Clank

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Clank
I took the train from Dusseldorf to London about a year ago, and even with
changes at Cologne and Brussels the overall journey time was not vastly
uncompetitive with flying, taking checkin times and the inconvenient
location of the airports at either end into account.

Sorry, that just doesn't add up.

Are you telling me I'm lying?
I assure you, I was there, I made the trip, and for the times I wanted to
travel the train was not uncompetitive, as well as being cheaper.
Just checking quickly, if I wanted to leave Dusseldorf by train at 3pm on
Tuesday, I can be in St Pancras at 8pm.

That's on one of the very few 6hr services. If you wanted to leave after
4pm, you'd be completely out of luck (arrival 08.30 the next day).

Post by Clank
If I wanted to do the same by plane, leaving Dusseldorf at 3pm I'd need to
catch the 4.45 Lufthansa flight to LHR, arriving at 5.10. Assuming an
unprecedented on time arrival,

According to Flightstats, that flight is delayed an average of 13
minutes.

Post by Clank
the earliest I'm realistically going to get
to St Pancras is 6.30, a whole hour and a half earlier.

Or if your destination was somewhere in London a little further from St
Pancras (let's say Ealing as a typical example), you'd be there more
than two and a half hours earlier than getting the train.

[Clank]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Clank

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Clank
I took the train from Dusseldorf to London about a year ago, and even with
changes at Cologne and Brussels the overall journey time was not vastly
uncompetitive with flying, taking checkin times and the inconvenient
location of the airports at either end into account.

Sorry, that just doesn't add up.

Are you telling me I'm lying?
I assure you, I was there, I made the trip, and for the times I wanted to
travel the train was not uncompetitive, as well as being cheaper.
Just checking quickly, if I wanted to leave Dusseldorf by train at 3pm on
Tuesday, I can be in St Pancras at 8pm.

That's on one of the very few 6hr services. If you wanted to leave after
4pm, you'd be completely out of luck (arrival 08.30 the next day).

Post by Clank
If I wanted to do the same by plane, leaving Dusseldorf at 3pm I'd need to
catch the 4.45 Lufthansa flight to LHR, arriving at 5.10. Assuming an
unprecedented on time arrival,

According to Flightstats, that flight is delayed an average of 13 minutes.

Post by Clank
the earliest I'm realistically going to get
to St Pancras is 6.30, a whole hour and a half earlier.

Or if your destination was somewhere in London a little further from St
Pancras (let's say Ealing as a typical example), you'd be there more than
two and a half hours earlier than getting the train.

In what way is Ealing typical of anything?

And anyway, who said tupical? I said that on *my* journey that *I* made
last year the train was competitive.

And I still await your apology for accusing me of lying.

[Roland Perry]

In message
<516188843402171033.486557clank75-***@reader443.eternal-septem
ber.org>, at 18:19:34 on Sun, 29 Sep 2013, Clank

Post by Clank
In what way is Ealing typical of anything?

It's a populous and quite well connected London suburb, and typical of
the sort of actual destination people might be making plans for.

Post by Clank
And anyway, who said tupical? I said that on *my* journey that *I* made
last year the train was competitive.

You said it was "not vastly uncompetitive". I disagree.

Post by Clank
And I still await your apology for accusing me of lying.

As an isolated example it wasn't a lie, but neither does it say much
about the competitiveness of the strategy in the general case.

Your example does illustrate how time of day and exact end points
influences a choice, however. I can drive to Cambridge airport and be in
the air on the way to Amsterdam sooner than arriving at Kings Cross by
train (and I'm only five minutes walk from the railway station).

But there's only two flights a day, so if I was starting at lunchtime
it'd all be different. On the other hand, there's planned to be only two
trains to Amsterdam each day, and I can pretty much guarantee that the
first will leave London at about 7am, which makes it extremely difficult
to access unless you stay locally overnight (or live inside the M25).

[Graham Murray]

Post by Roland Perry
But there's only two flights a day, so if I was starting at lunchtime
it'd all be different. On the other hand, there's planned to be only
two trains to Amsterdam each day, and I can pretty much guarantee that
the first will leave London at about 7am, which makes it extremely
difficult to access unless you stay locally overnight (or live inside
the M25).

Which (made worse by the timezone difference) would mean it will not
arrive until around lunch time, so would not be suitable for a same day
meeting.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Graham Murray

Post by Roland Perry
But there's only two flights a day, so if I was starting at lunchtime
it'd all be different. On the other hand, there's planned to be only
two trains to Amsterdam each day, and I can pretty much guarantee that
the first will leave London at about 7am, which makes it extremely
difficult to access unless you stay locally overnight (or live inside
the M25).

Which (made worse by the timezone difference) would mean it will not
arrive until around lunch time, so would not be suitable for a same day
meeting.

I don't think any 4hr trip (plane or train) is very suitable for a same
day meeting, unless it's right by the airport/station and only itself
about four hours duration.

As for the Amsterdam trains, they can't do two full diagrams a day,
because that would be about 19hrs (allowing an hour turn around). So
presumably they'll be used for something like:

AMS-BRU-LON-BRU-LON-BRU-AMS

LON-BRU-AMS-BRU-LON-BRU-LON

which is about 15hrs, and also nails down the times for the 4hr trains
as departing London at 6am/4pm and Amsterdam 7am/11am.

(You can't have a later second Amsterdam train in this scenario, because
there's not time for it to do AMS-BRU-LON-BRU-LON to get 'back home' in
London the same day. Or maybe they'll decide they need three trains).

[Clank]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Clank
In what way is Ealing typical of anything?

It's a populous and quite well connected London suburb, and typical of
the sort of actual destination people might be making plans for.

Post by Clank
And anyway, who said tupical? I said that on *my* journey that *I* made
last year the train was competitive.

You said it was "not vastly uncompetitive". I disagree.

Post by Clank
And I still await your apology for accusing me of lying.

As an isolated example it wasn't a lie, but neither does it say much
about the competitiveness of the strategy in the general case.

And I made no claim that it was. I note an apology is still not
forthcoming; evidently common decency is among the many specialisations not
covered by a 'general engineering' degree.

[Roland Perry]

In message
<1218604204402250245.681579clank75-***@reader443.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 23:21:47 on Mon, 30 Sep 2013, Clank

Post by Clank

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Clank
And I still await your apology for accusing me of lying.

As an isolated example it wasn't a lie, but neither does it say much
about the competitiveness of the strategy in the general case.

And I made no claim that it was.

I think you are being a bit oversensitive. I've not said you fabricated
the numbers (I even confirmed the fastest end-to-end time achievable).
All we disagree on is whether it's "competitive" with air.

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by Clank
evidently common decency is among the many specialisations not
covered by a 'general engineering' degree.

Presumably it would be covered by civil engineering.

[Recliner]

Post by Clank

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Clank
I took the train from Dusseldorf to London about a year ago, and even with
changes at Cologne and Brussels the overall journey time was not vastly
uncompetitive with flying, taking checkin times and the inconvenient
location of the airports at either end into account.

Sorry, that just doesn't add up.

Are you telling me I'm lying?
I assure you, I was there, I made the trip, and for the times I wanted to
travel the train was not uncompetitive, as well as being cheaper.
Just checking quickly, if I wanted to leave Dusseldorf by train at 3pm on
Tuesday, I can be in St Pancras at 8pm.
If I wanted to do the same by plane, leaving Dusseldorf at 3pm I'd need to
catch the 4.45 Lufthansa flight to LHR, arriving at 5.10. Assuming an
unprecedented on time arrival, the earliest I'm realistically going to get
to St Pancras is 6.30, a whole hour and a half earlier.

Was St Pancras your final destination? If not, where was it you were
actually going?

[Clank]

Post by Recliner

Post by Clank

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Clank
I took the train from Dusseldorf to London about a year ago, and even with
changes at Cologne and Brussels the overall journey time was not vastly
uncompetitive with flying, taking checkin times and the inconvenient
location of the airports at either end into account.

Sorry, that just doesn't add up.

Are you telling me I'm lying?
I assure you, I was there, I made the trip, and for the times I wanted to
travel the train was not uncompetitive, as well as being cheaper.
Just checking quickly, if I wanted to leave Dusseldorf by train at 3pm on
Tuesday, I can be in St Pancras at 8pm.
If I wanted to do the same by plane, leaving Dusseldorf at 3pm I'd need to
catch the 4.45 Lufthansa flight to LHR, arriving at 5.10. Assuming an
unprecedented on time arrival, the earliest I'm realistically going to get
to St Pancras is 6.30, a whole hour and a half earlier.

Was St Pancras your final destination? If not, where was it you were
actually going?

Farringdon.

[Recliner]

Post by Clank

Post by Recliner

Post by Clank

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Clank
I took the train from Dusseldorf to London about a year ago, and even with
changes at Cologne and Brussels the overall journey time was not vastly
uncompetitive with flying, taking checkin times and the inconvenient
location of the airports at either end into account.

Sorry, that just doesn't add up.

Are you telling me I'm lying?
I assure you, I was there, I made the trip, and for the times I wanted to
travel the train was not uncompetitive, as well as being cheaper.
Just checking quickly, if I wanted to leave Dusseldorf by train at 3pm on
Tuesday, I can be in St Pancras at 8pm.
If I wanted to do the same by plane, leaving Dusseldorf at 3pm I'd need to
catch the 4.45 Lufthansa flight to LHR, arriving at 5.10. Assuming an
unprecedented on time arrival, the earliest I'm realistically going to get
to St Pancras is 6.30, a whole hour and a half earlier.

Was St Pancras your final destination? If not, where was it you were
actually going?

Farringdon.

OK, agreed, for journeys to Farringdon, St P certainly beats any airport by
a large margin. Of course, Farringdon is on a through line between Gatwick
and Luton Parkway, but is a long way from either. I suppose Crossrail will
make the journey to Heathrow much better, but Eurostar will still be much
more convenient for the destinations it serves.

[Roland Perry]

In message

Post by Recliner

Post by Recliner
Was St Pancras your final destination? If not, where was it you were
actually going?

OK, agreed, for journeys to Farringdon, St P certainly beats any airport by
a large margin. Of course, Farringdon is on a through line between Gatwick
and Luton Parkway, but is a long way from either. I suppose Crossrail will
make the journey to Heathrow much better, but Eurostar will still be much
more convenient for the destinations it serves.

Don't forget Stansted. (And Luton is only 34 minutes)

[Clank]

Post by Recliner

Post by Clank

Post by Recliner
Was St Pancras your final destination? If not, where was it you were
actually going?

Farringdon.

OK, agreed, for journeys to Farringdon, St P certainly beats any airport by
a large margin. Of course, Farringdon is on a through line between Gatwick
and Luton Parkway, but is a long way from either. I suppose Crossrail will
make the journey to Heathrow much better, but Eurostar will still be much
more convenient for the destinations it serves.

Indeed, I'm fortunate that my wife works in Farringdon so that was where I
was going to meet her & her colleagues for the evening - I in no way claim
it as typical, of course! Although I'm not sure I think it's any less
typical than Ealing though, a destination Roland chose as typical purely
for its proximity to Heathrow...


What I would say *is* typical though, for someone who travels a tedious
amount but still likes to maintain some semblance of a social life, is that
the response from friends to "hey, I'm going to be arriving in
city-centre-station-X tomorrow night, anyone fancy a pint in a decent pub
before I head home/to the hotel/continue my journey" is far more likely to
elicit a positive response than "hey, I'm going to be arriving in
completely-out-of-the-way-airport-Y tomorrow night, anyone fancy a bad
overpriced pint in the airport's franchised Wetherspoons outlet."

[Roland Perry]

In message
<1555191999402215097.891727clank75-***@reader443.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 06:34:15 on Mon, 30 Sep 2013, Clank

Post by Clank
I'm fortunate that my wife works in Farringdon so that was where I
was going to meet her & her colleagues for the evening - I in no way claim
it as typical, of course! Although I'm not sure I think it's any less
typical than Ealing though, a destination Roland chose as typical purely
for its proximity to Heathrow...

I chose it as being neither especially close to Heathrow, nor in Z1; but
admittedly a place that people might choose Heathrow as the closest
airport. (Rather than Gatwick, Stansted or Luton). Personally, Heathrow
is my airport of absolute last resort, when any other option has been
ruled out.

{Dusseldorf has three flights a day to Stansted and London City, plus
two to Gatwick, in addition to those to Heathrow - which admittedly
dominate. I might have been tempted by the 3:20pm Air Berlin to City if
heading towards the eastern end of London; you'd be at Farringdon by
soon after 4pm}.

[Mizter T]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
[...]
I thought DB's plan was to go to Frankfurt via Brussels and Cologne?

All very much in the direction requested.

It's still going to be very slow compared to flying. And I wouldn't be
surprised if it's not much more expensive, too.

I'd think the fares will be competitive with flying, certainly not
"*much* more expensive".

I think your predisposition in favour of flying perhaps blinds you as to
the attractiveness of such a choice for others.

[Recliner]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
[...]
I thought DB's plan was to go to Frankfurt via Brussels and Cologne?

All very much in the direction requested.

It's still going to be very slow compared to flying. And I wouldn't be
surprised if it's not much more expensive, too.

I'd think the fares will be competitive with flying, certainly not "*much* more expensive".
I think your predisposition in favour of flying perhaps blinds you as to
the attractiveness of such a choice for others.

Perhaps you're right, but I've gone right off E*, and now much prefer to
fly to the Continent (admittedly, I'm usually going further than Paris or
Brussels). I find the E* first class seats quite cramped compared to BA,
which also provides better food and drink. And, these days, all my travel
is for pleasure, not business. I hardly every used E* for business trips,
even to Paris, as it's just too slow); I could do useful day trips to Paris
or Amsterdam by air, but not by train.

E* does have very competitive times to Brussels and Paris, but beyond those
cities, I just don't see it as being competitive with the plethora of
airlines (both full fare and budget) flying from the six London airports
and numerous regional airports. I'll be flying to Marseilles next month,
and obviously I'm flying (BA Club class was very competitive), and I'll be
flying to Paris in December.

[h***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Recliner

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
[...]
I thought DB's plan was to go to Frankfurt via Brussels and Cologne?

All very much in the direction requested.

It's still going to be very slow compared to flying. And I wouldn't be
surprised if it's not much more expensive, too.

I'd think the fares will be competitive with flying, certainly not "*much* more expensive".
I think your predisposition in favour of flying perhaps blinds you as to
the attractiveness of such a choice for others.

Perhaps you're right, but I've gone right off E*, and now much prefer to
fly to the Continent (admittedly, I'm usually going further than Paris or
Brussels). I find the E* first class seats quite cramped compared to BA,
which also provides better food and drink. And, these days, all my travel
is for pleasure, not business. I hardly every used E* for business trips,
even to Paris, as it's just too slow); I could do useful day trips to Paris
or Amsterdam by air, but not by train.
E* does have very competitive times to Brussels and Paris, but beyond those
cities, I just don't see it as being competitive with the plethora of
airlines (both full fare and budget) flying from the six London airports
and numerous regional airports. I'll be flying to Marseilles next month,
and obviously I'm flying (BA Club class was very competitive), and I'll be
flying to Paris in December.

Further afield in Europe, I can understand. But I would nonetheless at
this point see E* as being the most feasible route from London to
Paris. I mean, it's pretty seamless -- SPI to Gare du Nord -- centre to
centre. Or close enough, at least.

[h***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Mizter T

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
[...]
I thought DB's plan was to go to Frankfurt via Brussels and Cologne?

All very much in the direction requested.

It's still going to be very slow compared to flying. And I wouldn't be
surprised if it's not much more expensive, too.

I'd think the fares will be competitive with flying, certainly not
"*much* more expensive".
I think your predisposition in favour of flying perhaps blinds you as to
the attractiveness of such a choice for others.

E* will need to come up with competitive fairs as well as harp on the
fact that the service travels from/to the middle of each town, I think.

Doesn't SNCF do that with their TGV fares against airfares, BTW?

[Recliner]

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Mizter T

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
[...]
I thought DB's plan was to go to Frankfurt via Brussels and Cologne?

All very much in the direction requested.

It's still going to be very slow compared to flying. And I wouldn't be
surprised if it's not much more expensive, too.

I'd think the fares will be competitive with flying, certainly not
"*much* more expensive".
I think your predisposition in favour of flying perhaps blinds you as to
the attractiveness of such a choice for others.

E* will need to come up with competitive fairs as well as harp on the
fact that the service travels from/to the middle of each town, I think.

Competitive "fairs" might be an attraction if rail-served?

[d***@yahoo.co.uk]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 06:25:49 +0100, Peter

Post by Charles Ellson
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 19:37:01 +0100, Arthur Figgis

Post by Arthur Figgis
Rejoice (maybe).
"Eurostar, the Dutch government and Dutch national passenger operator NS
have signed an agreement for the launch of direct services between
London and Amsterdam Centraal in December 2016."

It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly?

In many cases it will depend on what the traveller is travelling for.
If it is for leisure as it would be for me I would much rather look
out of a train window for that time at the passing scenery than pass
through soulless air terminals just to save an hour or two on the
journey.
Whether there are enough of people like me to make it viable could be
the issue.

G.Harman

[Mizter T]

Post by Charles Ellson
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 19:37:01 +0100, Arthur Figgis

Post by Arthur Figgis
Rejoice (maybe).
"Eurostar, the Dutch government and Dutch national passenger operator NS
have signed an agreement for the launch of direct services between
London and Amsterdam Centraal in December 2016."

It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly? I
wonder how the costs will compare? Can the train really compete on
this route? I wonder if Eurostar might do better looking at routes
that run more-or-less in the same direction as the tunnel, rather than
ones that require a (relatively) sharp turn at the French end?

I think it'll be an attractive choice for many.

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by Peter
It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly? I
wonder how the costs will compare? Can the train really compete on
this route?

Depends whether you live in Stansted Moutfitchet and want to be in
Hoofddorp, or live in Camden and want to be in the middle of Rotterdam.

[Envo]

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Peter
It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly? I
wonder how the costs will compare? Can the train really compete on
this route?

Depends whether you live in Stansted Moutfitchet and want to be in
Hoofddorp, or live in Camden and want to be in the middle of
Rotterdam.

And if you live on Tyneside, its no use at all - we're stuck with KLM
or Sqeezyjet!

Envo

[Roland Perry]

Post by Envo

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Peter
It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly? I
wonder how the costs will compare? Can the train really compete on
this route?

Depends whether you live in Stansted Moutfitchet and want to be in
Hoofddorp, or live in Camden and want to be in the middle of
Rotterdam.

And if you live on Tyneside, its no use at all - we're stuck with KLM
or Sqeezyjet!

You forgot to mention the possibility of going on Eurostar, after the
three hour trip down the ECML.

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by Envo

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Peter
It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly? I
wonder how the costs will compare? Can the train really compete on
this route?

Depends whether you live in Stansted Moutfitchet and want to be in
Hoofddorp, or live in Camden and want to be in the middle of
Rotterdam.

And if you live on Tyneside, its no use at all - we're stuck with KLM
or Sqeezyjet!

http://www.dfdsseaways.co.uk/ferry-routes/holland/newcastle-to-amsterdam/

And if you don't want to go to the Netherlands at all, or are starting
from Timbuktu, it is even more useless (see also: HS2 not serving
Cornwall, Crossrail not benefiting people in the Outer Hebrides, etc).

[roger]

Post by Envo

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Peter
It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly? I
wonder how the costs will compare? Can the train really compete on
this route?

Depends whether you live in Stansted Moutfitchet and want to be in
Hoofddorp, or live in Camden and want to be in the middle of
Rotterdam.

And if you live on Tyneside, its no use at all - we're stuck with KLM
or Sqeezyjet!
Envo

I'm stuck with KLM in Cardiff which I find a bit expensive and it works
out slightly cheaper and more pleasant to use Stena Line's Dutch Flyer.

Once I offset the the overnight prices on Stena against againt flying
and using a hotel in Amsterdam it becomes cheaper.

The economics probably turn using Easyjet from Bristol but, atm, I'm not
sure that I can face the airport hassle.

[h***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by roger

Post by Envo

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Peter
It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly? I
wonder how the costs will compare? Can the train really compete on
this route?

Depends whether you live in Stansted Moutfitchet and want to be in
Hoofddorp, or live in Camden and want to be in the middle of
Rotterdam.

And if you live on Tyneside, its no use at all - we're stuck with KLM
or Sqeezyjet!
Envo

I'm stuck with KLM in Cardiff which I find a bit expensive and it works
out slightly cheaper and more pleasant to use Stena Line's Dutch Flyer.
Once I offset the the overnight prices on Stena against againt flying
and using a hotel in Amsterdam it becomes cheaper.
The economics probably turn using Easyjet from Bristol but, atm, I'm not
sure that I can face the airport hassle.

I'm not surer I can face easyJet. I'd just rather pay the premium,
knowing that I can get on a decent airline at an airport that would not
be far away in relative terms, not have to worry about baggage costs or
airline staff trying to fleece you, and maybe getting a free drink or
sandwich on the way.

[Recliner]

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by roger

Post by Envo

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Peter
It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly? I
wonder how the costs will compare? Can the train really compete on
this route?

Depends whether you live in Stansted Moutfitchet and want to be in
Hoofddorp, or live in Camden and want to be in the middle of Rotterdam.

And if you live on Tyneside, its no use at all - we're stuck with KLM
or Sqeezyjet!
Envo

I'm stuck with KLM in Cardiff which I find a bit expensive and it works
out slightly cheaper and more pleasant to use Stena Line's Dutch Flyer.
Once I offset the the overnight prices on Stena against againt flying
and using a hotel in Amsterdam it becomes cheaper.
The economics probably turn using Easyjet from Bristol but, atm, I'm not
sure that I can face the airport hassle.

I'm not surer I can face easyJet. I'd just rather pay the premium,
knowing that I can get on a decent airline at an airport that would not
be far away in relative terms, not have to worry about baggage costs or
airline staff trying to fleece you, and maybe getting a free drink or sandwich on the way.

I agree on all the other points, but doesn't easyJet normally use proper
business airports? It's unlike Ryanair in that regard, and is also much
friendlier. The Airbus planes are also roomier than the 737s. But I still
prefer BA.

[John Levine]

Post by Recliner
I agree on all the other points, but doesn't easyJet normally use proper
business airports?

How do you feel about Luton, Stansted, and Southend? They have some
flights from Gatwick but it looks like it's mostly the outer airports.

Post by Recliner
The Airbus planes are also roomier than the 737s. But I still prefer BA.

They have a kneeecap-crushing 29" seat pitch, worse than Ryanair's
30". No thanks.

[Mizter T]

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner
I agree on all the other points, but doesn't easyJet normally use proper
business airports?

How do you feel about Luton, Stansted, and Southend? They have some
flights from Gatwick but it looks like it's mostly the outer airports.

You're a bit out of date - nowadays Gatwick is easyjet's largest base,
and it's the largest airline at the airport (14 million passengers, 38%
of the total for the year 2012/13) with more than 100 routes. Gatwick is
more orange than it is blue and red.

Meanwhile Stansted is mainly Ryanair territory, and Southend isn't a
major operation for easyjet by any stretch.

[Recliner]

Post by Mizter T

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner
I agree on all the other points, but doesn't easyJet normally use proper
business airports?

How do you feel about Luton, Stansted, and Southend? They have some
flights from Gatwick but it looks like it's mostly the outer airports.

You're a bit out of date - nowadays Gatwick is easyjet's largest base,
and it's the largest airline at the airport (14 million passengers, 38%
of the total for the year 2012/13) with more than 100 routes. Gatwick is
more orange than it is blue and red.
Meanwhile Stansted is mainly Ryanair territory, and Southend isn't a
major operation for easyjet by any stretch.

Southend also happens to be well served by rail, and for some people in
Essex, it's probably very handy. I've not used it, but I imagine that like
other small, quiet airports, it's probably fast and convenient.

[Mizter T]

Post by Recliner

[snip]

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner
I agree on all the other points, but doesn't easyJet normally use
proper business airports?

How do you feel about Luton, Stansted, and Southend? They have some
flights from Gatwick but it looks like it's mostly the outer airports.

You're a bit out of date - nowadays Gatwick is easyjet's largest base,
and it's the largest airline at the airport (14 million passengers, 38%
of the total for the year 2012/13) with more than 100 routes. Gatwick is
more orange than it is blue and red.
Meanwhile Stansted is mainly Ryanair territory, and Southend isn't a
major operation for easyjet by any stretch.

Southend also happens to be well served by rail, and for some people in
Essex, it's probably very handy. I've not used it, but I imagine that like
other small, quiet airports, it's probably fast and convenient.

I've not used it either, but reports suggest that it's a doddle passing
through Southend.

"well served by rail" - up to a point - the train service isn't much cop
for the early and late flights (which IIRC are to/from Amsterdam) -
weekdays 0632 first arrival, 2305 last departure - with no backup coach
shuttle to and from London to fall back on either.

[Recliner]

Post by Recliner

[snip]

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner
I agree on all the other points, but doesn't easyJet normally use
proper business airports?

How do you feel about Luton, Stansted, and Southend? They have some
flights from Gatwick but it looks like it's mostly the outer airports.

You're a bit out of date - nowadays Gatwick is easyjet's largest base,
and it's the largest airline at the airport (14 million passengers, 38%
of the total for the year 2012/13) with more than 100 routes. Gatwick is
more orange than it is blue and red.
Meanwhile Stansted is mainly Ryanair territory, and Southend isn't a
major operation for easyjet by any stretch.

Southend also happens to be well served by rail, and for some people in
Essex, it's probably very handy. I've not used it, but I imagine that like
other small, quiet airports, it's probably fast and convenient.

I've not used it either, but reports suggest that it's a doddle passing through Southend.
"well served by rail" - up to a point - the train service isn't much cop
for the early and late flights (which IIRC are to/from Amsterdam) -
weekdays 0632 first arrival, 2305 last departure - with no backup coach
shuttle to and from London to fall back on either.

Poor rail service options for early and late flights is probably true for
most airports. I suspect people using those flights are more likely to be
locals who drive.

[Mizter T]

Post by Recliner

Post by Recliner
Southend also happens to be well served by rail, and for some people in
Essex, it's probably very handy. I've not used it, but I imagine that like
other small, quiet airports, it's probably fast and convenient.

I've not used it either, but reports suggest that it's a doddle passing through Southend.
"well served by rail" - up to a point - the train service isn't much cop
for the early and late flights (which IIRC are to/from Amsterdam) -
weekdays 0632 first arrival, 2305 last departure - with no backup coach
shuttle to and from London to fall back on either.

Poor rail service options for early and late flights is probably true for
most airports. I suspect people using those flights are more likely to be
locals who drive.

Gatwick, Luton and Stansted are all fairly well served by train (from
London at least) both in the early morning and late evening. Indeed
Gatwick and Luton have a service through the night (albeit a stopper in
the case of Luton and Thameslink).

[Recliner]

Post by Mizter T

Post by Recliner

Post by Recliner
Southend also happens to be well served by rail, and for some people in
Essex, it's probably very handy. I've not used it, but I imagine that like
other small, quiet airports, it's probably fast and convenient.

I've not used it either, but reports suggest that it's a doddle passing through Southend.
"well served by rail" - up to a point - the train service isn't much cop
for the early and late flights (which IIRC are to/from Amsterdam) -
weekdays 0632 first arrival, 2305 last departure - with no backup coach
shuttle to and from London to fall back on either.

Poor rail service options for early and late flights is probably true for
most airports. I suspect people using those flights are more likely to be
locals who drive.

Gatwick, Luton and Stansted are all fairly well served by train (from
London at least) both in the early morning and late evening. Indeed
Gatwick and Luton have a service through the night (albeit a stopper in
the case of Luton and Thameslink).

Yes, but they're exceptions, aren't they? And when I had an early morning
flight from Gatwick earlier this year I still drove as the Tube wasn't
working early enough. The return flight was delayed because of bad weather,
so I was pleased I had my car waiting in the long stay car park.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Mizter T

Post by Recliner
Poor rail service options for early and late flights is probably true for
most airports. I suspect people using those flights are more likely to be
locals who drive.

Gatwick, Luton and Stansted are all fairly well served by train (from
London at least) both in the early morning and late evening.

Stansted is poorly served from the north, the first train from
Peterborough (that doesn't require you to go via London) doesn't get in
until 08.39 weekdays. On a Sunday it's 14.45!

[Recliner]

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner
I agree on all the other points, but doesn't easyJet normally use proper
business airports?

How do you feel about Luton, Stansted, and Southend? They have some
flights from Gatwick but it looks like it's mostly the outer airports.

Post by Recliner
The Airbus planes are also roomier than the 737s. But I still prefer BA.

They have a kneeecap-crushing 29" seat pitch, worse than Ryanair's
30". No thanks.

Ouch! I avoid both.

[Neil Williams]

Post by John Levine
They have a kneeecap-crushing 29" seat pitch, worse than Ryanair's
30". No thanks.

There is more actual space on EZY because the seats are thinner and fabric
rather than plastic backed. And their new aircraft have a new design of
seat that increases legroom a bit (they have not put any more seats in).

Neil

[Recliner]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by John Levine
They have a kneeecap-crushing 29" seat pitch, worse than Ryanair's
30". No thanks.

There is more actual space on EZY because the seats are thinner and fabric
rather than plastic backed. And their new aircraft have a new design of
seat that increases legroom a bit (they have not put any more seats in).

And being an Airbus, there's also a bit more shoulder room than a 737.

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
I'm not surer I can face easyJet. I'd just rather pay the premium,
knowing that I can get on a decent airline at an airport that would not
be far away in relative terms, not have to worry about baggage costs or
airline staff trying to fleece you, and maybe getting a free drink or
sandwich on the way.

Remote airports and trying to fleece you is more the blue rather than
the orange aeroplanes these days. easyJet seem to have gone upmarket.

[Neil Williams]

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
I'm not surer I can face easyJet.

Whyever not? They're a pretty slick operation these days, and the boarding
scrum, for years the worst feature, has gone.

Neil

[Bevan Price]

Post by Charles Ellson
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 19:37:01 +0100, Arthur Figgis

Post by Arthur Figgis
Rejoice (maybe).
"Eurostar, the Dutch government and Dutch national passenger operator NS
have signed an agreement for the launch of direct services between
London and Amsterdam Centraal in December 2016."

It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly? I
wonder how the costs will compare? Can the train really compete on
this route? I wonder if Eurostar might do better looking at routes
that run more-or-less in the same direction as the tunnel, rather than
ones that require a (relatively) sharp turn at the French end?
Peter.

There are people who don't want to fly. Maybe enough to support a few
trains per day.

Bevan

[Graham Nye]

Post by Charles Ellson
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 19:37:01 +0100, Arthur Figgis

Post by Arthur Figgis
"Eurostar, the Dutch government and Dutch national passenger operator NS
have signed an agreement for the launch of direct services between
London and Amsterdam Centraal in December 2016."

It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly?

I flew to Amsterdam via Birmingham 3 weeks ago. It took 4 hrs 20 min
from the recommended arrival time at Birmingham to arriving at
Amsterdam C. So a 4 hr train trip doesn't sound like a problem.

Post by Charles Ellson
I wonder how the costs will compare?

That could be a significant factor. Offering deals on the domestic
rail journey to SPI would be handy.

[Recliner]

Post by Graham Nye

Post by Charles Ellson
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 19:37:01 +0100, Arthur Figgis

Post by Arthur Figgis
"Eurostar, the Dutch government and Dutch national passenger operator NS
have signed an agreement for the launch of direct services between
London and Amsterdam Centraal in December 2016."

It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly?

I flew to Amsterdam via Birmingham 3 weeks ago. It took 4 hrs 20 min
from the recommended arrival time at Birmingham to arriving at
Amsterdam C. So a 4 hr train trip doesn't sound like a problem.

What was your starting point? Brum to Amsterdam C via Virgin and E* will
take well over five hours.

[Graham Nye]

Post by Recliner

Post by Graham Nye
I flew to Amsterdam via Birmingham 3 weeks ago. It took 4 hrs 20 min
from the recommended arrival time at Birmingham to arriving at
Amsterdam C. So a 4 hr train trip doesn't sound like a problem.

What was your starting point? Brum to Amsterdam C via Virgin and E* will
take well over five hours.

Home! Not in Birmingham though. My reply to Roland
compares my journey times to Birmingham and St Pancras.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Graham Nye

Post by Peter

Post by Arthur Figgis
"Eurostar, the Dutch government and Dutch national passenger operator NS
have signed an agreement for the launch of direct services between
London and Amsterdam Centraal in December 2016."

It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly?

I flew to Amsterdam via Birmingham 3 weeks ago. It took 4 hrs 20 min
from the recommended arrival time at Birmingham to arriving at
Amsterdam C.

Sounds like you had problems. What was the recommended check-in time?

Normally that trip should be done in 1hr check-in, say 1hr 15 flying,
15mins to get to the Schiphol station and 20 mins to Centraal; a total
of 2hrs 50 mins.

Post by Graham Nye
So a 4 hr train trip doesn't sound like a problem.

It's not 4hrs from Birmingham though.

[Graham Nye]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graham Nye

Post by Peter
It's a lovely idea, but a four-hour journey time doesn't sound
terribly attractive. Even allowing for all the time spent hanging
around at airports, wouldn't it be significantly quicker to fly?

I flew to Amsterdam via Birmingham 3 weeks ago. It took 4 hrs 20 min
from the recommended arrival time at Birmingham to arriving at
Amsterdam C.

Sounds like you had problems. What was the recommended check-in time?

No problems. Two hours before the flight, according to our airline(KLM).

Post by Roland Perry
Normally that trip should be done in 1hr check-in, say 1hr 15 flying,
15mins to get to the Schiphol station and 20 mins to Centraal; a total
of 2hrs 50 mins.

30 mins to get out to the station and another 15 min to buy tickets and
wait for a train to arrive. So 4 hr 20 min, as I wrote before.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graham Nye
So a 4 hr train trip doesn't sound like a problem.

It's not 4hrs from Birmingham though.

The proposed rail service is a 4 hr replacement for a 4 hr+ flight
segment. Whether it's quicker for any particular traveller will
depend on whether it's quicker to get to SPI or the nearest
international airport. I expect there are a lot of people in the
South-East who can get to SPI as quickly as they can get to an
airport.

As I don't live near London, depending on how the connections
work, it would take me an extra 1 hr 20 min to 2 hr 20 min to
get to SPI compared to BHX. Some passengers would regard that
as an acceptable trade-off on a holiday journey in order to
avoid flying. (Employers could be rather less keen for
business trips.)

[Roland Perry]

Post by Graham Nye

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graham Nye
I flew to Amsterdam via Birmingham 3 weeks ago. It took 4 hrs 20 min
from the recommended arrival time at Birmingham to arriving at
Amsterdam C.

Sounds like you had problems. What was the recommended check-in time?

No problems. Two hours before the flight, according to our airline(KLM).

Post by Roland Perry
Normally that trip should be done in 1hr check-in, say 1hr 15 flying,
15mins to get to the Schiphol station and 20 mins to Centraal; a total
of 2hrs 50 mins.

30 mins to get out to the station and another 15 min to buy tickets and
wait for a train to arrive. So 4 hr 20 min, as I wrote before.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graham Nye
So a 4 hr train trip doesn't sound like a problem.

It's not 4hrs from Birmingham though.

The proposed rail service is a 4 hr replacement for a 4 hr+ flight
segment.

It shouldn't take 4hr 20 mins. Online check-in means even with a
bag-drop one hour is adequate (and KLM's published minimum is half an
hour).

Eurostar check-in is officially 30 minutes (so that brings their time to
4.5hrs), but we often hear people recommending that you can arrive later
without a problem.

The 30 minutes to exit airside is on the long side (often there's little
or no passport control queue) although I suspect you had a bag to
collect which can be slow at Schiphol. Ticket machines are available in
the baggage hall.

[Graham Nye]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graham Nye

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graham Nye
I flew to Amsterdam via Birmingham 3 weeks ago. It took 4 hrs 20 min
from the recommended arrival time at Birmingham to arriving at
Amsterdam C.

Sounds like you had problems. What was the recommended check-in time?

No problems. Two hours before the flight, according to our airline(KLM).

Post by Roland Perry
Normally that trip should be done in 1hr check-in, say 1hr 15 flying,
15mins to get to the Schiphol station and 20 mins to Centraal; a total
of 2hrs 50 mins.

30 mins to get out to the station and another 15 min to buy tickets and
wait for a train to arrive. So 4 hr 20 min, as I wrote before.
...

It shouldn't take 4hr 20 mins.

Well, it did. I'm amused, though hardly surprised, to find for the
second time in this thread that you are disputing someone else's
first-hand account of a trip.

Post by Roland Perry
Online check-in means even with a
bag-drop one hour is adequate (and KLM's published minimum is half an
hour).

KLM recommend a 2 hr check-in at Birmingham:
http://www.klm.com/travel/gb_en/prepare_for_travel/checkin_options/dropoff_times/index.htm

Birmingham airport recommends a minimum 90 min arrival:
http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/destinations/travel-advice/check-in-time.aspx

As a frequent traveller you may know when you can undercut these times
but as an occasional traveller I prefer to stick to the published
guidance. Of course, having to arrive early and hang round an airport
is part of why HS rail is competitive with air travel for up to 4 hr trips.

Post by Roland Perry
Eurostar check-in is officially 30 minutes (so that brings their time to
4.5hrs),

I included the 30' wait in the comparison figures in my previous post.

Post by Roland Perry
... but we often hear people recommending that you can arrive later
without a problem.

I expect that's OK for a few people. E* would have problems if all
18 coaches worth of passengers turned up in the last 30'.

Post by Roland Perry
The 30 minutes to exit airside is on the long side (often there's little
or no passport control queue) although I suspect you had a bag to
collect which can be slow at Schiphol.

The passport control queue was slow (and no faster service for EUssr
citizens) but perhaps that masked the baggage collection time. Our
bags turned up a couple of minutes after we did.

Post by Roland Perry
Ticket machines are available in the baggage hall.

We used the ones in the concourse above the rail platforms,
but those would have been handy to use if we had had to wait
for our bags.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Graham Nye

Post by Roland Perry
It shouldn't take 4hr 20 mins.

Well, it did. I'm amused, though hardly surprised, to find for the
second time in this thread that you are disputing someone else's
first-hand account of a trip.

I'm not disputing how long you took, just sceptical that it's
representative.

I could wheel out lots of examples where rail took longer than it might
otherwise have done, as a result of a combination of poor connections
and conservative planning.

I could (and have) described many instances of where aircraft beat the
train hands down; as well as a couple where the train was the better
choice for me, even though it turned a one day meeting into a three day
trip.

[Graham Nye]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graham Nye

Post by Roland Perry
It shouldn't take 4hr 20 mins.

Well, it did. I'm amused, though hardly surprised, to find for the
second time in this thread that you are disputing someone else's
first-hand account of a trip.

I'm not disputing how long you took, just sceptical that it's
representative.

It should be representative; my figures are based on the published
arrival and flight times, salted with some experience of how long
it actually took to get from Schiphol to Amsterdam C, rather than
how long it might have taken an experienced traveller if every
step lined up ideally - which indeed wouldn't be representative.

[iMark]

Post by Graham Nye
It should be representative; my figures are based on the published
arrival and flight times, salted with some experience of how long
it actually took to get from Schiphol to Amsterdam C, rather than
how long it might have taken an experienced traveller if every
step lined up ideally - which indeed wouldn't be representative.

A very good alternative from Schiphol to the centre of Amsterdam is bus
197. Hardly anyone has Central Station as their final destination. Bus
197 goes straight to Museumplein and Leidseplein.

Tickets from the driver at EUR 4 (if you don't have an OV chip card) but
not valid on GVB trams and buses.

[Neil Williams]

Post by iMark
Tickets from the driver at EUR 4 (if you don't have an OV chip card) but
not valid on GVB trams and buses.

Schiphol is, annoyingly, just outside what we might call the PTE area.

Neil

[Roland Perry]

In message
<994916490402502910.265217wensleydale-***@news.individual.
net>, at 14:23:06 on Thu, 3 Oct 2013, Neil Williams

Post by Neil Williams
Schiphol is, annoyingly, just outside what we might call the PTE area.

Deliberately, I assume.

[Neil Williams]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Neil Williams
Schiphol is, annoyingly, just outside what we might call the PTE area.

Deliberately, I assume.

I'm not sure - if you look at a map it seems coincidental.

Neil

[Roland Perry]

Post by Graham Nye

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graham Nye

Post by Roland Perry
It shouldn't take 4hr 20 mins.

Well, it did. I'm amused, though hardly surprised, to find for the
second time in this thread that you are disputing someone else's
first-hand account of a trip.

I'm not disputing how long you took, just sceptical that it's
representative.

It should be representative; my figures are based on the published
arrival and flight times, salted with some experience of how long
it actually took to get from Schiphol to Amsterdam C, rather than
how long it might have taken an experienced traveller if every
step lined up ideally - which indeed wouldn't be representative.

You make a valid point, but in a railway newsgroup the train times
quoted are almost always highly skewed towards that same 'experienced
traveller'.

If you (for example) take Transport Direct's advice on how long a train
journey should take, that often adds a great deal above what people
experience in practice [1].

To that extent it makes no sense, ever, to compare end to end times as
abstract concepts - you always have to factor in the "inexperienced and
nervous" traveller versus the "experienced and confident".

[1] If I plumb in "now" and my old house in Nottingham, it says I'll get
to St Pancras at 18:01 (on the 16:02 departure), which is 2hrs 40
minutes. As an experienced and confident flyer, 2hrs 40 minute is almost
enough for me to be standing on the platform at Schiphol (30 mins to
airport, 60 mins check-in, 60 mins flight, 20 mins maximum to exit
airport to the station).

[Neil Williams]

Post by Roland Perry
To that extent it makes no sense, ever, to compare end to end times as
abstract concepts - you always have to factor in the "inexperienced and
nervous" traveller versus the "experienced and confident".

And that on longer journeys (above a couple of hours) journey time might
take second place to somewhere decent to stop for dinner, for instance.
This is one place SBB's "perfect" 5 minute connections on low frequency
services fall down.

Neil

[Roland Perry]

In message
<2109431536402505502.011926wensleydale-***@news.individual
.net>, at 21:13:13 on Thu, 3 Oct 2013, Neil Williams

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Roland Perry
To that extent it makes no sense, ever, to compare end to end times as
abstract concepts - you always have to factor in the "inexperienced and
nervous" traveller versus the "experienced and confident".

And that on longer journeys (above a couple of hours) journey time might
take second place to somewhere decent to stop for dinner, for instance.
This is one place SBB's "perfect" 5 minute connections on low frequency
services fall down.

Some people prefer to take direct trains/planes, almost irrespective of
the often much higher price for the planes and longer journey time for
the trains.

I quite like changes, as it means there are new stations/airports to
explore and become familiar with, just for fun, but also reconnoitring
in case next time there's a quick-change required.

[roger]

Post by Roland Perry
Some people prefer to take direct trains/planes, almost irrespective of
the often much higher price for the planes and longer journey time for
the trains.
I quite like changes, as it means there are new stations/airports to
explore and become familiar with, just for fun, but also reconnoitring
in case next time there's a quick-change required.
--
Roland Perry

I like changes as well. Sometimes I'll stop on route as well. My
favourite stops are for the real ale at Manningtree station and for a
quick meal at Rosendaal station in the Netherlands. I done both with a
friend and on both occasions he thought I was mad until I actually got
him in there.

The bane of my life is that the connections on an Advance Ticket cannot
be extended. I do Cardiff to Northallerton regularly and both legs just
have a trolley so by Manchester Picadilly I'm gasping for a meal and a pint.

[r***@gmail.com]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Roland Perry
To that extent it makes no sense, ever, to compare end to end times as
abstract concepts - you always have to factor in the "inexperienced and
nervous" traveller versus the "experienced and confident".

And that on longer journeys (above a couple of hours) journey time might
take second place to somewhere decent to stop for dinner, for instance.
This is one place SBB's "perfect" 5 minute connections on low frequency
services fall down.

It would all fall down if such conditions exist. I am having a hard time, however, coming up with a journey involving SBB that actually meets these critera. In pretty much every journey long enough to demand a meal stop, it is possible to accommodate such a stop by replacing a 5-minute connection with a 35-minute connection, and extend the total journey time by no more than 30 minutes. The only situation I can envisage this not working out would be a tightly scheduled gricing tour trying to get lots of mountain routes into a single day, but that's not really typical.

Robin

[Neil Williams]

Post by r***@gmail.com
It would all fall down if such conditions exist. I am having a hard
time, however, coming up with a journey involving SBB that actually meets
these critera. In pretty much every journey long enough to demand a meal
stop, it is possible to accommodate such a stop by replacing a 5-minute
connection with a 35-minute connection, and extend the total journey time
by no more than 30 minutes. The only situation I can envisage this not
working out would be a tightly scheduled gricing tour trying to get lots
of mountain routes into a single day, but that's not really typical.

I might have been doing that :). That said, 5 minutes isn't enough to get a
coffee or snack, 15 would be fine, 35 a bit much.

More of an issue on DB where a lot of services run on a 2 hourly base, I
suppose, though even there regional frequencies have been upped in a lot of
places.

Neil

[bob]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by r***@gmail.com
It would all fall down if such conditions exist. I am having a hard
time, however, coming up with a journey involving SBB that actually meets
these critera. In pretty much every journey long enough to demand a meal
stop, it is possible to accommodate such a stop by replacing a 5-minute
connection with a 35-minute connection, and extend the total journey time
by no more than 30 minutes. The only situation I can envisage this not
working out would be a tightly scheduled gricing tour trying to get lots
of mountain routes into a single day, but that's not really typical.

I might have been doing that :). That said, 5 minutes isn't enough to get a
coffee or snack, 15 would be fine, 35 a bit much.

Sure, if you want a coffee or snack, but if your interest is in
something more like a proper meal, then 35 is reasonable (or a bit
short). Also, SBB have pretty good on-board catering on most IC
services.

Post by Neil Williams
More of an issue on DB where a lot of services run on a 2 hourly base, I
suppose, though even there regional frequencies have been upped in a lot of
places.

Sure, although again it is more of a problem for journeys involving
lots of out-of-the-way places rather than suburb-city-other city-suburb
type trips that are more typical of non-gricers.

Robin

[Neil Williams]

Post by Graham Nye
As a frequent traveller you may know when you can undercut these times

Pretty much always. But I find airports not an unpleasant place for a sit
down meal and a bimble through the shops. The end to end time isn't
everything to me. OTOH hanging round at railway stations (Euston excepted)
tends in winter to be a bit freezing cold.

Neil

[Roland Perry]

In message
<653071693402331451.325291wensleydale-***@news.individual.
net>, at 14:49:53 on Tue, 1 Oct 2013, Neil Williams

hanging round at railway stations (Euston excepted) tends in winter to
be a bit freezing cold.

I've yet to hang around in the new Kings Cross in the winter, it might
not be too bad. But St Pancras (except perhaps the pub and the E*
departure lounge) is an incredibly cold place to hang around.

[Graham Nye]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Graham Nye
As a frequent traveller you may know when you can undercut these times

Pretty much always.

But at your risk.

Post by Neil Williams
But I find airports not an unpleasant place for a sit
down meal and a bimble through the shops.

Each to their own. The concourse at St Pancras offers
similar facilities and you could always turn up an
hour or two before your train departs for the authentic
airport experience.

Post by Neil Williams
OTOH hanging round at railway stations (Euston excepted)
tends in winter to be a bit freezing cold.

Not a problem for E* passengers who, as we've been
reminded, don't get to hang around on the platform
admiring the architecture.

[Neil Williams]

Post by Graham Nye
But at your risk.

Always at your risk, even if you turn up 3 hours before. The risk is
minimal, including at such places as LHR and LGW.

Neil

[Denis McMahon]

Post by Arthur Figgis
"Eurostar, the Dutch government and Dutch national passenger operator NS
have signed an agreement for the launch of direct services between
London and Amsterdam Centraal in December 2016."

So will we call these Eclogs or Clog*?