Restart procedure...

...will probably get a rethink.

Remind me why they changed it.

--
Bozo bin
Texasgate
Heron
Enjoy!

texas gate

2020-09-13 15:01:44 UTC

Post by Bigbird
Remind me why they changed it.

blow me

Alan Baker

2020-09-13 15:28:55 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
begins racing at the same moment.

Bigbird

2020-09-13 15:37:15 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
begins racing at the same moment.

I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
(back) to no overtaking until the start line.

--
Bozo bin
Texasgate
Heron
Enjoy!

Alan LeHun

2020-09-13 16:27:52 UTC

Post by Bigbird
I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
(back) to no overtaking until the start line.

I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of
regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the same
place for this track.

--
Alan LeHun
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Alan Baker

2020-09-13 17:06:43 UTC

Post by Bigbird
I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
(back) to no overtaking until the start line.

I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of
regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the same
place for this track.

No, I don't think that's the case.

The safety line defines the first point that the leader can start to
accelerate by the rules. The start line defines the last point that the
leader can start to accelerate...

...if he wants to remain the leader.

:-)

Bigbird

2020-09-13 18:24:44 UTC

Post by Bigbird
I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
(back) to no overtaking until the start line.

I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of
regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the
same place for this track.

No, I don't think that's the case.
The safety line defines the first point that the leader can start to
accelerate by the rules. The start line defines the last point that
the leader can start to accelerate...
...if he wants to remain the leader.

Utter rubbish.

--
Bozo bin
Texasgate
Heron
Enjoy!

Bigbird

2020-09-13 17:50:08 UTC

Post by Bigbird
I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
(back) to no overtaking until the start line.

I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of
regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the
same place for this track.

I have just checked the regs it used to be the first SC line (for the
previous 5 years or at least) and changed (back) to the "control line"
in 2019.

If you remember we used to have the problem of cars concertinaring up
behind lapped cars until the reached the control line. Then they
allowed lapped cars to unlap themselves and then changed to the SC line
although I could tell you which years each happened.

--
Bozo bin
Texasgate
Heron
Enjoy!

~misfit~

2020-09-14 04:46:27 UTC

Post by Bigbird
I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
(back) to no overtaking until the start line.

I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of
regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the
same place for this track.

I have just checked the regs it used to be the first SC line (for the
previous 5 years or at least) and changed (back) to the "control line"
in 2019.
If you remember we used to have the problem of cars concertinaring up
behind lapped cars until the reached the control line. Then they
allowed lapped cars to unlap themselves and then changed to the SC line
although I could tell you which years each happened.

I thought that was changed due to someone going into the pits and gaining positions? Or not...

--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

Brian Lawrence

2020-09-14 05:36:34 UTC

Post by Bigbird
I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
(back) to no overtaking until the start line.

I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of
regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the
same place for this track.

I have just checked the regs it used to be the first SC line (for the
previous 5 years or at least) and changed (back) to the "control line"
in 2019.
If you remember we used to have the problem of cars concertinaring up
behind lapped cars until the reached the control line. Then they
allowed lapped cars to unlap themselves and then changed to the SC line
although I could tell you which years each happened.

I thought that was changed due to someone going into the pits and
gaining positions? Or not...

There's an article from 2011 here:

<https://www.racefans.net/2011/12/07/lapped-cars-allowed-pass-safety-car-2012/>

geoff

2020-09-13 21:56:49 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
begins racing at the same moment.

Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same moment !

geoff

Alan Baker

2020-09-13 22:13:48 UTC

Post by geoff

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
begins racing at the same moment.

Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same moment !

Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on track is
limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located nearly 800 feet
from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare that the entire field can't see
the starter's green flag.

But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal station, and
they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back to racing at
precisely the same moment.

Bigbird

2020-09-13 23:05:39 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.

Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same moment !

Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on track is
limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located nearly 800
feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare that the entire field
can't see the starter's green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal station,
and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back to racing at
precisely the same moment.

Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't aware
but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly well.

--
Bozo bin
Texasgate
Heron
Enjoy!

Alan Baker

2020-09-13 23:50:45 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.

Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same moment !

Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on track is
limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located nearly 800
feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare that the entire field
can't see the starter's green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal station,
and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back to racing at
precisely the same moment.

Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't aware
but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly well.

What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?

It's what is used for:

Yellow flags.

Blue flags.

Green flags (currently "waved" at the station beyond an incident to let
a driver know that he is once again in a racing section of the track).

Red flags.

"SC" signs.

What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

Bigbird

2020-09-14 09:07:35 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control
when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.

Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same moment !

Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on track
is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located
nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare that the
entire field can't see the starter's green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal
station, and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back
to racing at precisely the same moment.

Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't
aware but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly well.

What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?

You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim to be an
expert.

[snip partial list of flags/panels]

Post by Alan Baker
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

"imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what is
advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over flags/panels alone.

Do you even know what I am referring to?

--
Bozo bin
Texasgate
Heron
Enjoy!

Alan Baker

2020-09-14 16:59:03 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control
when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.

Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same
moment !

Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on track
is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located
nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare that the
entire field can't see the starter's green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal
station, and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back
to racing at precisely the same moment.

Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't
aware but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly well.

What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?

You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim to be an
expert.
[snip partial list of flags/panels]

Post by Alan Baker
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

"imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what is
advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over flags/panels alone.
Do you even know what I am referring to?

I'm saying that you've made a claim—a couple of claims, actually...

...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.

Bigbird

2020-09-15 06:26:34 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver
control when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and
then everyone begins racing at the same moment.

Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same moment !

Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on
track is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is
located nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare
that the entire field can't see the starter's green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal
station, and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes
back to racing at precisely the same moment.

Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't
aware but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly well.

What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?

You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim to be
an expert.
[snip partial list of flags/panels]

Post by Alan Baker
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

"imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what is
advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over flags/panels alone.
Do you even know what I am referring to?

I'm saying that you've made a claim—a couple of claims, actually...
...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.

So you are scared to answer my question and aren't going to elaborate
on what you don't understand.

Again, do you know the VSC start procedure... how remedial an
explanation do you need?

--
Bozo bin
Texasgate
Heron
Enjoy!

Alan Baker

2020-09-15 07:06:49 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver
control when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and
then everyone begins racing at the same moment.

Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same moment !

Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on
track is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is
located nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare
that the entire field can't see the starter's green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal
station, and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes
back to racing at precisely the same moment.

Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't
aware but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly well.

What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?

You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim to be
an expert.
[snip partial list of flags/panels]

Post by Alan Baker
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

"imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what is
advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over flags/panels alone.
Do you even know what I am referring to?

I'm saying that you've made a claim—a couple of claims, actually...
...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.

So you are scared to answer my question and aren't going to elaborate
on what you don't understand.

I asked you first...

...so explain how you aren't scared to answer MY question.

:-)

Post by Bigbird
Again, do you know the VSC start procedure... how remedial an
explanation do you need?

Again:

What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?

What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

Or are you scared to answer?

:-)

Bigbird

2020-09-15 09:31:46 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver
control when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag,
and then everyone begins racing at the same moment.

Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact
same moment !

Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars
on track is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish
is located nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So
it's rare that the entire field can't see the starter's
green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every
marshal station, and they could be used to ensure that
everyone goes back to racing at precisely the same moment.

Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably
aren't aware but they have a system for the VSC which works
perfectly well.

What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?

You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim
to be an expert.
[snip partial list of flags/panels]

Post by Alan Baker
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

"imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what
is advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over
flags/panels alone.
Do you even know what I am referring to?

I'm saying that you've made a claim—a couple of claims,
actually...
...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.

So you are scared to answer my question and aren't going to
elaborate on what you don't understand.

I asked you first...

Oh dear, you are such a dick. So you want me to guess how limited your
knowledge is.

Okay so the VSC utilises the "official messaging system" and they could
also utilise in ear tones.

Do you need more explained?

Post by Alan Baker
...so explain how you aren't scared to answer MY question.

??

Fuckwit.

Post by Bigbird
Again, do you know the VSC start procedure... how remedial an
explanation do you need?

What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?

For one recent example, the Monza discussion and a the panels not being
recognised nor displaying the correct signal.

The number of times driver fail to see them and drivers being able to
see them at all times of due to natural lighting conditions.

Post by Alan Baker
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

The VSC also utilises the "official messaging system" and they could
also utilise in ear tones.

Panels alone leave too much room for errors.

Post by Alan Baker
Or are you scared to answer?

Fuckwit.

--
Bozo bin
Texasgate
Heron
Enjoy!

Alan Baker

2020-09-19 06:00:15 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver
control when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag,
and then everyone begins racing at the same moment.

Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact
same moment !

Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars
on track is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish
is located nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So
it's rare that the entire field can't see the starter's
green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every
marshal station, and they could be used to ensure that
everyone goes back to racing at precisely the same moment.

Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably
aren't aware but they have a system for the VSC which works
perfectly well.

What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?

You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim
to be an expert.
[snip partial list of flags/panels]

Post by Alan Baker
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

"imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what
is advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over
flags/panels alone.
Do you even know what I am referring to?

I'm saying that you've made a claim—a couple of claims,
actually...
...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.

So you are scared to answer my question and aren't going to
elaborate on what you don't understand.

I asked you first...

Oh dear, you are such a dick. So you want me to guess how limited your
knowledge is.
Okay so the VSC utilises the "official messaging system" and they could
also utilise in ear tones.

Yeah...

...and a system that informs the TEAMS (not the driver directly) is
useful in the scenario of a safe restart...

how?

Post by Bigbird
Do you need more explained?

Post by Alan Baker
...so explain how you aren't scared to answer MY question.

??
Fuckwit.

Post by Bigbird
Again, do you know the VSC start procedure... how remedial an
explanation do you need?

What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?

For one recent example, the Monza discussion and a the panels not being
recognised nor displaying the correct signal.

Green is pretty well understood, and the fact that one driver forgot his
obligation to look at the marshaling signals is hardly an indictment of
the entire system.

Post by Bigbird
The number of times driver fail to see them and drivers being able to
see them at all times of due to natural lighting conditions.

Now you're just make shit up?

Post by Alan Baker
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

The VSC also utilises the "official messaging system" and they could
also utilise in ear tones.

They could release white doves... ...but we're talking about what they
ARE doing...

...and the "official messaging system informs the TEAM...

...who would then have to inform the driver that racing is back on.

Post by Bigbird
Panels alone leave too much room for errors.

And yet panels (and flags) have been used successfully for decades for
everything else.

Post by Alan Baker
Or are you scared to answer?

Fuckwit.

LOL

Bigbird

2020-09-20 12:46:43 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading
driver control when everyone can take off is a
bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green
flag, and then everyone begins racing at the
same moment.

Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the
exact same moment !

Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of
cars on track is limited to (I think) 40, and our
start/finish is located nearly 800 feet from the exit
of turn 9. So it's rare that the entire field can't
see the starter's green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every
marshal station, and they could be used to ensure that
everyone goes back to racing at precisely the same moment.

Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you
probably aren't aware but they have a system for the
VSC which works perfectly well.

What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?

You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't
claim to be an expert.
[snip partial list of flags/panels]

Post by Alan Baker
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

"imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine
what is advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over
flags/panels alone.
Do you even know what I am referring to?

I'm saying that you've made a claim—a couple of claims, actually...
...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.

So you are scared to answer my question and aren't going to
elaborate on what you don't understand.

I asked you first...

Oh dear, you are such a dick. So you want me to guess how limited
your knowledge is.
Okay so the VSC utilises the "official messaging system" and they
could also utilise in ear tones.

Yeah...
...and a system that informs the TEAMS (not the driver directly) is
useful in the scenario of a safe restart...
how?

What the fuck are you on about?

I thought you were simply being obtuse but you really don't know
anything about this do you.

I suggest you google.

...and WTF do you think I was talking about when I referred to in ear
tones.

You really are not being very bright.

Post by Bigbird
Do you need more explained?

Post by Alan Baker
...so explain how you aren't scared to answer MY question.

??
Fuckwit.

Post by Bigbird
Again, do you know the VSC start procedure... how remedial an
explanation do you need?

What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?

For one recent example, the Monza discussion and a the panels not
being recognised nor displaying the correct signal.

Green is pretty well understood, and the fact that one driver forgot
his obligation to look at the marshaling signals is hardly an
indictment of the entire system.

Post by Bigbird
The number of times driver fail to see them and drivers being able
to see them at all times of due to natural lighting conditions.

Now you're just make shit up?

Don't be such a dick. Do you think you can see a light panel clearly
when looking into the sun, for example.

Post by Alan Baker
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

The VSC also utilises the "official messaging system" and they could
also utilise in ear tones.

They could release white doves... ...but we're talking about what
they ARE doing...

WTF are you on about.

Are you having a mental breakdown.

I am only talking about what they already utilise.

Post by Alan Baker
...and the "official messaging system informs the TEAM...

WRONG!

Post by Alan Baker
...who would then have to inform the driver that racing is back on.

WRONG!

Post by Bigbird
Panels alone leave too much room for errors.

And yet panels (and flags) have been used successfully for decades
for everything else.

Post by Alan Baker
Or are you scared to answer?

Fuckwit.

LOL

Confirmed fuckwit.

--
Bozo bin
Texasgate
Heron
Enjoy!

a425couple

2020-09-15 15:32:32 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
begins racing at the same moment.

Perhaps that is true now.

Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

I recall hearing the long time person say,
"My concerns are: 1. Is it legal? 2. Is it safe?
3. Is it fair?"

I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.

Alan Baker

2020-09-15 16:49:59 UTC

Post by a425couple

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
begins racing at the same moment.

Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...

...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently before
that.

Straight from our race regulations:

Racing Commences At The Green Flag

'A.

A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green light),
is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to be seen by
the driver.

B.

During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting area
all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is first
displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag be
positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.

C.

Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light, shall
be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to penalty.
Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'

Post by a425couple
I recall hearing the long time person say,
"My concerns are: 1. Is it legal? 2. Is it safe?
3. Is it fair?"
I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.

a425couple

2020-09-15 17:44:09 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
begins racing at the same moment.

Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...
...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently before
that.
Racing Commences At The Green Flag
'A.
A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green light),
is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to be seen by
the driver.
B.
During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting area
all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is first
displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag be
positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
C.
Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light, shall
be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to penalty.
Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'

I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.

Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.

I'd suggest (either in private, or at a Driver's Meeting)
asking the Starter / Flagman his interpretation.

"Does the leading car approaching a restart have the
right to determine his own desired speed?"
"What speed is prohibited?"
"How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"

(This is all a separate subject from the initial
starting of a race. The normal instructions to
the pole setter are that after the Safety Car pulls
off, the pole sitter is in charge of setting the
pace and it is to be mild acceleration until
the green flag is waved. So, of course he will
normally go to where he has peak torque.)

Alan Baker

2020-09-15 18:13:29 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.

Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...
...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
before that.
Racing Commences At The Green Flag
'A.
A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to be
seen by the driver.
B.
During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting area
all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is first
displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag be
positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
C.
Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light, shall
be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to penalty.
Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'

I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.

Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.

1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un

2. In F1, the rules state that there is no passing until you get to the
"control line" (we just call it "start/finish line"). Under our rules,
you can pass and be passed immediately once the green flag flies.

Post by a425couple
Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.

Not in that part of the regulations, no. But:

'12.1.A.8

The pole sitting race car will assume the role of pacing the field and
will pace the field at a slow and constant speed and in accordance with
instructions that may be given by the clerk of the course.'

Now, "constant means no acceleration or deceleration, so the only
possible speed the leader can possibly use is the one set by the pace
car before the lights were turned off, but I would still contend that
the rule should be rewritten slightly:

'The pole sitting race car will assume the role of pacing the field and
will pace the field at the same speed established by the pace car
immediately before its lights were turned off, and in accordance with
instructions that may be given by the clerk of the course.'

Post by a425couple
I'd suggest (either in private, or at a Driver's Meeting)
asking the Starter / Flagman his interpretation.
"Does the leading car approaching a restart have the
right to determine his own desired speed?"

Essentially, no.

Post by a425couple
"What speed is prohibited?"

Any speed above what was set by the pace car.

Post by a425couple
"How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"

Using the starter's eyes and judgement.

Post by a425couple
(This is all a separate subject from the initial
starting of a race. The normal instructions to
the pole setter are that after the Safety Car pulls
off, the pole sitter is in charge of setting the
pace and it is to be mild acceleration until
the green flag is waved. So, of course he will
normally go to where he has peak torque.)

I'd like to see your reference for the contention that there "is to be
mild acceleration until the green flag"...

Where in the rules for ICSCC does it say that?

Because what I read when I look at the rules is:

'The grid must be orderly, in a tight formation and be moving at a
constant and moderate pace prior to receiving the green flag from the
starter. '

<https://www.icscc.com/references/comp_regs_2020.pdf>

"Constant pace" means no acceleration at all.

Alan Baker

2020-09-15 18:15:40 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.

Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...
...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
before that.
Racing Commences At The Green Flag
'A.
A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to
be seen by the driver.
B.
During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting
area all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is
first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag be
positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
C.
Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light,
shall be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to
penalty. Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'

I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.

Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.

Sorry. Left a sentence unfinished

Post by Alan Baker
1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un

...like our rules, where it explicitly states the leader will hold a
constant speed until the green flag is waved.

a425couple

2020-09-15 21:03:24 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.

Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...
...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
before that.
Racing Commences At The Green Flag
'A.
A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to
be seen by the driver.
B.
During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting
area all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is
first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag
be positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
C.
Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light,
shall be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to
penalty. Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'

I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.

Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.

Sorry. Left a sentence unfinished

Post by Alan Baker
1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un

...like our rules, where it explicitly states the leader will hold a
constant speed until the green flag is waved.

I really wish you would not intentionally confuse the
issue by mixing up the discussion on the rules
on the start of the race, and a restart.

Clearly in my post from 10:44 I was writing about
a restart. Note the repeated use of word "restart".

Again:
I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.

Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.

I'd suggest (either in private, or at a Driver's Meeting)
asking the Starter / Flagman his interpretation.

"Does the leading car approaching a restart have the
right to determine his own desired speed?"
"What speed is prohibited?"
"How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"

The Canadian long time Flager / Starter felt
those restarts were fine and waved the Green Flag.

" When conditions permit,
the Pace Car will exit the track and the Starter will
permit the race to continue with a green flag. All cars
shall hold their position until the green flag is displayed."

"Hold their positions" does not dictate constant speed!

Alan Baker

2020-09-16 21:47:45 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.

Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...
...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
before that.
Racing Commences At The Green Flag
'A.
A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to
be seen by the driver.
B.
During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting
area all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is
first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag
be positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
C.
Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light,
shall be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to
penalty. Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'

I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.

Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.

Sorry. Left a sentence unfinished

Post by Alan Baker
1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un

...like our rules, where it explicitly states the leader will hold a
constant speed until the green flag is waved.

You're splitting hairs, L...

Post by a425couple
Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.

The rules for starting from behind a pace car mandate precisely that.

No.

Post by a425couple
"What speed is prohibited?"

Any speed faster than the speed set by the pace car immediately before
it turned out its lights.

Post by a425couple
"How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"

By experience and judgement.

Post by a425couple
The Canadian long time Flager / Starter felt
those restarts were fine and waved the Green Flag.

Which starts would those be?

Post by a425couple
" When conditions permit,
the Pace Car will exit the track and the Starter will
permit the race to continue with a green flag. All cars
shall hold their position until the green flag is displayed."
"Hold their positions" does not dictate constant speed!

If it is dictated that the leader not accelerate, then holding your
position behind him DOES mean constant speed, L.

a425couple

2020-09-17 22:24:12 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.

Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...
...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
before that.
Racing Commences At The Green Flag
'A.
A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able
to be seen by the driver.
B.
During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting
area all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is
first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag
be positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
C.
Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light,
shall be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject
to penalty. Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'

I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.

Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.

Sorry. Left a sentence unfinished

Post by Alan Baker
1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un

...like our rules, where it explicitly states the leader will hold a
constant speed until the green flag is waved.

You're splitting hairs, L...

Post by a425couple
Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.

The rules for starting from behind a pace car mandate precisely that.

No.

Post by a425couple
"What speed is prohibited?"

Any speed faster than the speed set by the pace car immediately before
it turned out its lights.

Post by a425couple
"How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"

By experience and judgement.

Post by a425couple
The Canadian long time Flager / Starter felt
those restarts were fine and waved the Green Flag.

Which starts would those be?

If it is dictated that the leader not accelerate, then holding your
position behind him DOES mean constant speed, L.

Sheesh.
For restarts, there is no written rule against the leader
accelerating.
Holding position, means not passing anyone.
The leader can accelerate after the pace car pulls off.

You have gotten used to one way.
That does not mean your rules dictate things be that way.
Just like F1 got used to the leader flooring it
by the last corner.
But, in this last race Bottas did not, and he was
not required to.

Sept. 3 2006. Group 6 We had a full course yellow
for laps 10 & 11. I was very concerned that Styan
that I had been leading would jump me on the restart.
I accelerated hard half way through what was then
the last turn. The Starter / Flagger gave me the
Green.
JUST LIKE F1 now mostly does.
I took 1st Overall in Group 6 Sports Racers & FV.

Alan Baker

2020-09-17 23:46:43 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

I've always thought that letting the leading driver control
when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.

Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...
...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
before that.
Racing Commences At The Green Flag
'A.
A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able
to be seen by the driver.
B.
During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting
area all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is
first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green
flag be positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
C.
Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light,
shall be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject
to penalty. Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'

I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.

Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.

Sorry. Left a sentence unfinished

Post by Alan Baker
1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un

...like our rules, where it explicitly states the leader will hold a
constant speed until the green flag is waved.

You're splitting hairs, L...

Post by a425couple
Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.

The rules for starting from behind a pace car mandate precisely that.

No.

Post by a425couple
"What speed is prohibited?"

Any speed faster than the speed set by the pace car immediately before
it turned out its lights.

Post by a425couple
"How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"

By experience and judgement.

Post by a425couple
The Canadian long time Flager / Starter felt
those restarts were fine and waved the Green Flag.

Which starts would those be?

If it is dictated that the leader not accelerate, then holding your
position behind him DOES mean constant speed, L.

Sheesh.
For restarts, there is no written rule against the leader
accelerating.

There is a general rule which CLEARLY applies.

Post by a425couple
Holding position, means not passing anyone.
The leader can accelerate after the pace car pulls off.

No. He cannot.

Given the layout of many circuits, how could the leader judge just when
that might be safe to do?

Post by a425couple
You have gotten used to one way.
That does not mean your rules dictate things be that way.
Just like F1 got used to the leader flooring it
by the last corner.
But, in this last race Bottas did not, and he was
not required to.

I agree. He was not required to...

...and F1's rules led to chaos.

Post by a425couple
Sept. 3 2006. Group 6 We had a full course yellow
for laps 10 & 11. I was very concerned that Styan
that I had been leading would jump me on the restart.
I accelerated hard half way through what was then
the last turn. The Starter / Flagger gave me the
Green.

The fact that he did doesn't guarantee your actions were within the
rules at the time.

Post by a425couple
JUST LIKE F1 now mostly does.
I took 1st Overall in Group 6 Sports Racers & FV.

And I'm happy for you.

However, it seems quite clear that it is safer for all participants to
go from pacing to racing TOGETHER.

The existing ICSCC rules don't have a separate procedure listed for
restarts, L; only for starting. And those rules say:

'The grid must be orderly, in a tight formation and be moving at a
constant and moderate pace prior to receiving the green flag from the
starter.'

(Rule 709)

The word "accelerate" (which you earlier claimed was something the
leader was allowed to do) does not appear in the rules...

...AT ALL.

<https://www.icscc.com/references/comp_regs_2020.pdf>

If there are no separate instructions for conduct during restarts, why
do you imagine that you can do whatever you like?

~misfit~

2020-09-14 04:51:02 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

larkim

2020-09-14 10:37:08 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend the F2 and F3 races were the same.
The lead car after a safety car didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to minimise
the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it OK over four races.
It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers / teams had already seen how the
teenagers managed it without incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their race....
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to the exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.

Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.

Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap) driving have helped on Sunday?

Bigbird

2020-09-14 12:37:30 UTC

Post by larkim

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend the
F2 and F3 races were the same. The lead car after a safety car
didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to minimise
the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it OK over four races.
It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers /
teams had already seen how the teenagers managed it without
incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their
race....
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief
has a cozy little classification in the DSM"
David Melville
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any
half-arsed self-promoting software.

It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to the
exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.
Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.
Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap)
driving have helped on Sunday?

From decision, note third paragraph.

"The Stewards conclude that the root cause of this incident was the
inconsistent
application of throttle and brake, from the final corner along the pit
straight, by the
above drivers. The Stewards acknowledge the challenges the location of
the Control
Line presents at this circuit and the desire of drivers to take
advantage of the restart.

However this incident demonstrates the need for caution to be exercised
in the restart
situation and note that there was an extreme concertina effect which
dramatically
increased as it moved down the field.

We also note that some drivers might have avoided being involved in the
incident had
they not followed directly behind the car in front. By doing so they
effectively blocked
off all visibility of what was happening immediately in front of the
preceding car. "

--
Bozo bin
Texasgate
Heron
Enjoy!

larkim

2020-09-14 13:19:31 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend the
F2 and F3 races were the same. The lead car after a safety car
didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to minimise
the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it OK over four races.
It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers /
teams had already seen how the teenagers managed it without
incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their
race....
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief
has a cozy little classification in the DSM"
David Melville
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any
half-arsed self-promoting software.

It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to the
exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.
Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.
Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap)
driving have helped on Sunday?

From decision, note third paragraph.
"The Stewards conclude that the root cause of this incident was the
inconsistent
application of throttle and brake, from the final corner along the pit
straight, by the
above drivers. The Stewards acknowledge the challenges the location of
the Control
Line presents at this circuit and the desire of drivers to take
advantage of the restart.
However this incident demonstrates the need for caution to be exercised
in the restart
situation and note that there was an extreme concertina effect which
dramatically
increased as it moved down the field.
We also note that some drivers might have avoided being involved in the
incident had
they not followed directly behind the car in front. By doing so they
effectively blocked
off all visibility of what was happening immediately in front of the
preceding car. "
--
Bozo bin
Texasgate
Heron
Enjoy!

Yep, I'm trying to reconcile it all in my head. It felt like they were spread out side to side, and that meant there was no room for left / right avoidance. But equally, I can see how the fact that all you can see is the car in front would also contribute to the concertina effect.

Bigbird

2020-09-15 09:15:30 UTC

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend
the F2 and F3 races were the same. The lead car after a safety
car didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to
minimise the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it
OK over four races.
It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers /
teams had already seen how the teenagers managed it without
incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their
race....
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious
belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM"
David Melville
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any
half-arsed self-promoting software.

It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to
the exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.
Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.
Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap)
driving have helped on Sunday?

From decision, note third paragraph.
"The Stewards conclude that the root cause of this incident was the
inconsistent
application of throttle and brake, from the final corner along the
pit straight, by the
above drivers. The Stewards acknowledge the challenges the location
of the Control
Line presents at this circuit and the desire of drivers to take
advantage of the restart.
However this incident demonstrates the need for caution to be
exercised in the restart
situation and note that there was an extreme concertina effect
which dramatically
increased as it moved down the field.
We also note that some drivers might have avoided being involved in
the incident had
they not followed directly behind the car in front. By doing so
they effectively blocked
off all visibility of what was happening immediately in front of
the preceding car. "
--
Bozo bin
Texasgate
Heron
Enjoy!

Yep, I'm trying to reconcile it all in my head. It felt like they
were spread out side to side, and that meant there was no room for
left / right avoidance. But equally, I can see how the fact that all
you can see is the car in front would also contribute to the
concertina effect.

From the replays I've seen I think the catalyst was George Russell who
dropped back for a timed run for the line but went too early then found
himself baulked and had to slow up. All the cars around him followed
this lead some assuming they were underway and were caught out when the
cars in front slowed up.

We don't know what was said in the drivers briefing but I think that
despite the regs it would take some specific instructions to prevent
drivers trying to gain such an advantage.

--
Bozo bin
Texasgate
Heron
Enjoy!

~misfit~

2020-09-15 00:07:04 UTC

Post by larkim

Post by Bigbird
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.

What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend the F2 and F3 races were the same.
The lead car after a safety car didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to minimise
the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it OK over four races.
It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers / teams had already seen how the
teenagers managed it without incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their race....
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to the exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.
Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.
Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap) driving have helped on Sunday?

For the Toyota Racing Series in NZ over January / February the rules are different to the rest of
the worlds open wheeler FIA rules. Here weaving to get tyre temp is not allowed once the lights go
off on the safety car. It makes re-starts much safer but catches out overseas drivers, there's
usually a penalty or two handed out in the first few races until they get it.

Watching the Mugello GP safety car re-start I couldn't help but think that the same rule would be a
good idea in F1 as well. That way the drivers can be concentrating on getting the start right
rather than their tyre / brake temps.

a425couple

2020-09-15 17:59:24 UTC

Post by larkim