On Monday, July 29, 2013 at 6:51:45 PM UTC+3, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Steve ~
>
> There has been discussion in the past on the newsgroup regarding the
> placement of Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, in the
> Longespée family tree. Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 472 (sub
> FitzWalter) identifies Ida as "daughter of William (Longespée), Earl
> of Salisbury." The William Longespée intended here is presumably
> William Longespée I who died in 1226, not his son, William II, who
> died in 1250. If so, this would give Earl William Longespée I and his
> wife, Ela, two adult daughters named Ida, one of whom married Walter
> Fitz Robert, and the other who married William de Beauchamp.
> Curiously Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 381-382 footnote k (sub
> Salisbury) confuses Walter Fitz Robert's wife Ida with her sister of
> the same name who married William de Beauchamp; it also misidentifies
> Walter Fitz Robert's parentage.
>
> The identification of Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, as a Longespée
> has traditionally rested on a pedigree of the Longespée family found
> in Lacock Priory cartulary. This pedigree lists the various children
> of William Longespée I, Earl of Salisbury, and his wife, Ela of
> Salisbury, including:
>
> "Idam de Camyle, quam duxit in uxorem Walterus fil. Roberti, de qua
> genuit Catherinam et Loricam, quæ velatæ erant apud Lacok; Elam, quam
> duxit primo Guillelmus de Dodingeseles, de qua genuit Robertum")
> [Reference: Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 6(1) (1830): 501].
>
> It is not known exactly why Ida Longespée is here styled Ida de Camyle
> in this record. I've assumed, however, that Ida may have had a brief
> Camville marriage previous to her known marriage to Walter Fitz
> Robert. If so, a previous Camvillle marriage would explain her use of
> the Camville surname as a grown adult. Ida's older brother, William
> Longespée II, is known, for example, to have married a member of the
> Camville family.
>
> There are two contemporary records which prove that Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, was in fact a Longespée. The first record comes from List of Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and Exchequer, which source contains an abstract of a letter dated 1261-1263 from Ida, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, written to Walter de Merton, the king's chancellor, in which Ida specifically styles herself Ida Longespée:
>
> "152. Ida Longespée, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, to the same [Walter
> de Merton, Chancellor]: to bail two of her men appealed of homicide.
> [1261-1263]." [Reference: List of Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and
> Exchequer (PRO Lists and Indexes 15) (1902): 107-108].
>
> Elsewhere I find that Calendar of Liberate Rolls 5 (1961): 93 likewise refers to Ida, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, as "Ida Lungespee:"
>
> Date: 11 May 1162 — “Liberate to Geoffrey de Lezinan, the king’s brother, 40l. in recompense of a like sum received there of the issues of the manor of Henham [Essex] by the hands of Ida Lungespee." END OF QUOTE.
>
> To date to my knowledge no one has discovered Ida Longespée's
> maritagium, although she certainly had one in marriage. Recently I
> encountered a record which evidently concerns her maritagium. The
> record in question is a Wiltshire pleading which dates from 1249:
>
> "Walter son of Robert and Ida his wife, by Ida's attorney by writ of
> the present king, who brought an assize of novel disseisin against
> William Lungepeie for holdings in Scepperingge and Heniton, Farlegh'
> and Bidinham, have come and withdrawn by licence. It is agreed
> between them that Walter and Ida had put themselves utterly in
> William's grace for those holdings." [Reference: Clanchy, Civil Pleas
> of the Wiltshire Eyre 1249 (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 26) (1971): 152].
>
> The lands involved in this lawsuit can be identified as Sheepbridge
> (in Swallowfield), Hinton (in Hurst), Farley [Hill] (in Swallowfield),
> and Diddenham (in Shinfield), all in modern Berkshire but formerly in
> Wiltshire. These lands were apparently held by William Longespée I
> and his wife, Countess Ela.
>
> VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 267-274 states that Sheepbridge "belonged with
> Hinton in 1236 to Ela, Countess of Salisbury." Countess Ela named
> here was the widow of William Longespée I. VCH's statement regarding
> Countess Ela's holding of these lands is based on a charter found in
> Calendar of Charter Rolls 1226–57, page 221, whereby the king
> confirmed a grant of Countess Ela of various lands to Lacock Abbey,
> in exchange for "10 l. yearly receivable ...... .of the manors of
> Shiperige and Henton, and the advowson of the church of Winterburn
> Shyreveton."
>
> The above record may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=1dELAQAAIAAJ&pg=PP1&dq=Calendar+Charter+Rolls+1226&hl=en&ei=M-U4TrbTFYvXiALj163DDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Calendar%20Charter%20Rolls%201226&f=false
>
> Countess Ela's charter is undated but surely must date from around
> 1236. My files notes show the following information:
>
> "In Feb. 1236 her son and heir, William Longespée, guaranteed her
> gifts to Lacock Abbey, while she agreed to surrender all her lands,
> rents and rights to him on 1 Nov. following. On 25 Oct. 1236 Ela,
> Countess of Salisbury, reached agreement with William Longespée, her
> first born son, that she may grant a moiety of the manor of
> Heddington, Wiltshire to Lacock Priory, which property fell to her on
> the death of Maud de Mandeville, Countess of Essex and Hereford. In
> the winter 1236–7 she resigned her custody of the county of
> Wiltshire. She subsequently entered her religious foundation at
> Lacock, where she took the veil before spring 1238." END OF QUOTE
> FROM MY FILE NOTES.
>
> Following Countess Ela's surrender of her lands to her son, William
> Longespée II, he in turn granted the four properties in question,
> namely Sheepbridge, Hinton, Farley, and Diddenham, to his seneschal,
> Sir Henry de la Mare. The date of this grant is sometime before
> 1239-40.
>
> In that year Sir Henry de la Mare was involved in a legal action
> concerning these four properties. A reference to this lawsuit may be
> found in Maitland, Bracton’s Note Book 3 (1887): 286–287. This may
> be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=DtcQAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:LtFTiI1NIsEC&hl=en&ei=nmw5TsSXK42IsAKv3OEg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
>
> So the question arises: When did Walter Fitz Robert and his wife, Ida
> Longespée, acquire their interest in the four properties? The answer
> to that question is not exact but surely it must have dated from the
> time that Countess Ela of Salisbury was holding these properties and
> before 1 Nov. 1236 when Countess Ela surrendered all her lands, rents,
> and rights to her son, William Longespée II. Walter and Ida can't
> have acquired their interest from William Longespée II, as once his
> mother released her lands to him, he almost immediately conveyed these
> four properties to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. One of these
> properties, Hinton, subsequently descended to Sir Henry de la Mare's
> daughter and heiress, Maud, wife of Peter de Montfort, and thence to
> her descendants [see VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 247–260].
>
> So besides knowing that Walter Fitz Robert and Ida Longespée obtained
> their interest in the properties before 1236, what else can we know?
> More specifically, why would Ida claim these lands, if her brother had
> granted them to his seneschal?
>
> The answer to this question is not clear but a reasonable guess would
> be that these four properties were put up as Ida's maritagium when she
> was contracted to marry a Camville and that when the contracted
> Camville marriage failed to materialize or produced no issue, by the
> terms of the marriage contract, the lands returned to Ida's family.
> At that point, Ida's claim to the lands was essentially voided. This
> in turn would explain why Ida's brother, William Longespée II, felt
> free to grant these lands elsewhere to Sir Henry de la Mare.
>
> In summary, adequate evidence has been located which indicates that
> Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, was a Longespée. In 1249 Walter Fitz
> Robert and his wife, Ida, sued William Longespée II regarding four
> properties then in Wiltshire, but now in Berkshire. The four
> properties in question were apparently part of the inheritance of
> Ida's mother, Countess Ela, who appears to have controlled the lands
> until 1236, when she released her lands to her son, William Longespée
> II. Ida's rights must predate 1236, as William Longespée II almost
> immediately conveyed these properties before 1239-40 to his seneschal,
> Sir Henry de la Mare. Thus William Longespée II can not have offered
> them as Ida's maritagium. This in turn implies that Ida Longespée was
> the daughter of William Longespée I and his wife, Countess Ela, and
> not William Longespée II.
>
> For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert:
>
> Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Walter Aston, Christopher Batt, Henry, Thomas & William Batte, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George & Robert Brent, Thomas Bressey, Edward Bromfield, Nathaniel Browne, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull, Elizabeth, John, and Thomas Butler, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew Clarkson, St. Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Muriel Gurdon, Katherine Hamby, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Nathaniel Littleton, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Symon Lynde, Agnes Mackworth, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, George Reade, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stratton, James Taylor, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, John West, Thomas Yale.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:43:09 AM UTC-6, Steve Riggan wrote:
> < I have been doing some research on the families descended from Ida Longespee <and Walter FitzWalter versus the families of another Ida Longespee and second <husband William Beauchamp and am confused by the different information <regarding the parentage of these two women, obviously related. I am descended <from both women, multiple times through the Longespee/Beauchamp marriage, and <I have seen where Ida Longespee, wife of Walter FitzWalter, was thought to be <the granddaughter of William Longespee, 3rd Earl of Salisbury and other <research has indicated that she was his daughter and a sister of the same name <to Ida, wife of William Beauchamp. My question is, has any updated <information revealed the exact relationship of these women to William <Longespee? Hopefully, someone in the <newsgroup can clarify the lines. Thanks.
> <
> < Steve Riggan
Dear Douglas
What is the evidence that Ida Longespée, wife of Ralph de Somery and William de Beauchamp, was the daughter of Ela, Countess of Salisbury? Is it possible that she was the daughter of William Longespée by a different mother?
Thanks
Oliver Fowler